speaker-0: Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Development Diaries. This is a show where we interview leaders, innovators, change makers, movers and shakers from across the real estate development sector, learning about their career journeys, proudest moments, lessons learned along the way, and advice to their younger you. We also find out what excites them most about the real estate sector right now. I'm your host, John Guest, founder of Henry James Search and the Rebels community. group of good humans in real estate we've come together to move the industry forward and challenge the status quo. On this episode of Development Diaries, I'm delighted to be joined by Barbel Schuartz, founder of Bee House, non-exec director at East End Homes, Rezi Homes, and Ebsfleet Development Corporation, and former Director of Development at Waits Residential. Bearbell, we've we've known each other for a little while now and I've been excited to get you on the podcast and share your journey with the listeners. So welcome to Development Diaries. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank you, John. ⁓ I'm delighted to be here.
speaker-0: Great to have you. ⁓ so we like to start the show by going back to the beginning of your career. ⁓ could you share with the listeners a little bit more about what led you to end up in the wonderful world of real estate? Was it something that was written in the stars or were there a few sliding doors moments along the way?
speaker-1: I would say there were definitely a few sliding door moments along the way. ⁓ I was my my name gives gives away a little bit my origin. I was ⁓ I grew up in in Germany and I ended up studying architecture there, but it wasn't a straightforward route into architecture to start off with. I wanted to learn trade initially. My plan was to be a joiner or something a bit creative where you can always sort of fall back on. But without giving my precise age away, at the time when I wanted to do this, a woman in a trade was just some it just wasn't supported. ⁓ there weren't even the basic facilities in most sort of small businesses that would support apprenticeships. So that plan didn't work out so well at the time. And I ended up initially doing an apprenticeship as a draftsperson. And whilst this role or this job per se doesn't really much exist anymore, for me it almost helped finance my whole architect study that I ended up doing in in the end because I could do working drawings all along. and then once I sort of qualified as an architect, ⁓ I worked there, I really enjoyed this, and it was sort of through a number of sort of sliding door moments that we ended up today. First was an opportunity to go to South Africa. Again, there's a lot of background to this. and I ended up as a site architect in ⁓ in South Africa. And again, lots of different things happened there where the project then ⁓ for a number of reasons didn't go ahead, and I had to decide, do I stay? And maybe change, or do I go back to Germany and work as an architect? And I had an opportunity to join the contract, and I actually joined ⁓ decided to stay in South Africa and join a construction company, one of the biggest contractors in South Africa, and worked in construction management, managing trades, the whole thing. and and again, another sliding moment, then fell in love and ended up through that in England. ⁓ And that was a few years later. And then when we arrived here, I just needed a job really and that ended up in project management rather than going back into architecture at the time. Architects were not looking for people so much from you know outside the UK. It was all about UK experience. And then ⁓ you know, project management sort of looked at commercial, residential, all sorts of other projects and again ⁓ an opportunity arose and that sort of opened the door for me into residential development and I've been there ever since and I've really never looked back.
speaker-0: I think that's architecture's loss and development's gain, hopefully. ⁓ where when did you first get interested in development? It sounds like quite a natural progression, kind of took on more responsibility and then moved a bit closer to it. At what point did it become more purposeful? That you know, that's what I want to do.
speaker-1: Think it was like a very conscious ⁓ move, I would say. It was more about when I was working in project management and I had, as I said, a whole range of different sector projects. and one of the things we're working much closer with sort of key clients and their assets and their projects, and there was one project ⁓ which You may recall it's the old Middlesex hospital in the middle of London, which you know was out for a basically a tender. And ⁓ so we were looking to align our key client with a more of a residential experienced ⁓ developer. And I came across one of the founding partners of London Newcastle at the time, and He was just really inspiring. He inspired me. and i I didn't really sort of think much of it. But then a year later I got a phone call from a recruitment agent and said, Look, there was a role in London Newcastle. And because I had made that connection, ⁓ I didn't think twice, put myself forward and then made the transition and stayed there for thirteen years. And we had an an exceptional time there. And so it was it was again that sort of sliding door moment or whatever you want to call it, but it wasn't that I focused. That's what I want to do. It was an opportunity that came up and it felt right.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's been a bit of a common theme through the podcast series so far is this some people say it's luck, others might say it's putting yourself in the right place to take that opportunity. ⁓ so can you t share with us a bit more about your time at London Newcastle, what happened since then, some of your career highlights. ⁓ if you were to release the greatest hits of your career, what what would be on the?
speaker-1: So maybe the first question, my time since. So at London Newcastle, that was a big you know, it was thirteen years that I was there. I started as a development ⁓ manager and then within one or two years I was development director, but there wasn't a big business then anymore because two thousand and seven, when I joined, ⁓ there was a very different world to Two years later, so I joined literally just before the global financial crisis, and the whole business had to be ⁓ well, reinvented, reengineered, and I was very much part of the core team doing that. And ⁓ so from a developer owning the assets, we we changed into more of a development management business. And you know, whilst this was a very different proposition. It also allowed us to punch way above our weights with clients of you know from all sorts of spectrum, whether it's private equity, local authorities, housing associations, pension funds, and significantly large projects also. Whilst when we were a small developer and had our own assets, you can imagine the capital and just the financial means that we had, even though we we had significant financial means, but that there was maybe I don't know, 50 units or something, maybe 100 units, and all of a sudden, you know, the projects became significantly larger. So it was ⁓ it was a great time. and you asked about ⁓ you know the successes there. My highlights, it's that's really hard to say. ⁓ I would say in my career, the highlights, there's always a little bit of when you do something the first time and and you succeed and something that is a bit out of your comfort zone. So whether this was back in South Africa when I did some design and built, I was drawing my own buildings for yes, it was a private family home and then actually managing it and actually building it, ⁓ managing all of that. Or in London, the first huge planning consent, The first appeal win ⁓ when you see your first building of a sort of a significant size finished and people moving in. But for me, the biggest success is really is my influence on people, not so much the projects themselves. ⁓ and that's something that I'm really proud of. ⁓ so when people come back years later and said, without without my influence, without me, they would have never gotten to where they were ⁓ or would have never had the courage to sort of step up. and I certainly had a lot of moments like that. ⁓ and for me that that's probably the proudest I am when I look back on on my career, rather than the projects or the big planning consents or whatever it is, it's it's more the people and what influence up Apparently hard, you know, the the feedback of hat has been very humbling.
speaker-0: And I think ironically that's what led us together in the first place was a few people had said to me, ⁓ you need to know this lady. She's brilliant. you know, you you if you don't know her already, get to know. So that I guess is your legacy as much as anything, as you say, not just the places you create, although those are intrinsically linked to people's lives in a in a different kind of way. But yeah, being a leader. ⁓ yeah, could you touch a little bit more about that transition into leadership? What point did that happen at? When did you start to not just lead projects but ⁓ also lead teams and ⁓ how did your career then progress?
speaker-1: Think to a certain extent that starts quite early. so if I think back in South Africa in construction management, for example, I was put from one day to the next onto a large construction site that was running behind, and they needed all hands on deck because liquidated and estate damages were otherwise levied against the contractor. And so I was pulled off my project and put there. I was the only woman on a site which was like Trolling with people, and we had a deadline, and we needed to meet this deadline. And each of us construction managers, we had like one floor or two floors, I can't remember the details, but we had X amount of apartments we needed to hand over. And it was a bit of a competition between the various construction managers, and you know, to cut a long story short, I won that competition and In terms of leadership, and that goes back to what I said earlier, it's how you treat people rather than so I didn't just scream at people when they didn't do the things that I asked. ⁓ you know, I really treated the whole team with respect and so I ended up getting people preferring to work on my floors rather than the other floors where they were maybe more treated differently. And I guess that sort of set, not set me up, but that's always been my my sort of style. When you talk about leadership, you know, obviously my development director and sitting on a board that started at London Newcastle and then also then carried on into Waits Residential. But it's still the same traits that you learn along the way, you know, how you how you lead from the front, how you lead by example, or this that's the way I ⁓ look at ⁓ at leadership, very much believe in that ⁓ yeah, leading by example.
speaker-0: Have you ever thought about if you didn't end up in development, what you might have done instead? You might have already answered this question, but I'm curious.
speaker-1: ⁓ there's so many things. ⁓ so if I could turn back the clock, you know, what would I have done? And you know, there's there's so many things and even now where over the last year and a half is you know, I had to sort of bit almost like reinvent a little bit or rethink what do I want to do, and those things they came up again. And whether it is studying plants and herbs and their uses in culinary sort of cooking, going a little bit back to basics, what you find locally, or how to use it in medicine or or beauty products, or whether it is designing sets in movies or theater. I mean, you name it, you know, I'm interested in so many things. ⁓ it's really hard to say. And once you're on a journey, on a trajectory, It's it's impossible to say how life would have turned out, you know, when you go down a certain route.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm still waiting for my England call up, but it just hasn't quite come yet.
speaker-1: No, that sort of thing was never my ⁓ my my dream. ⁓ at least I I exactly. I think creative was always the the bit that ⁓ interested me.
speaker-0: There's always something creative though. Yeah, it sounds like you're ⁓ intellectually curious and ⁓ how you use things to create better things, ⁓ ingredients, which I guess, you know, kind of feeds into placemaking, doesn't it? How are the sum of these parts gonna create a better place overall? Is kind of a bit like a recipe.
speaker-1: I think that's actually I've never heard anyone ⁓ describing it that way, but I think that's exactly what it's ⁓ what it is. And you can ⁓ you know, even if you just make a ⁓ a really nice bowl of of pasta with tomato sauce, it can taste very bland, same as with residential development, or it can taste really quite interesting and ⁓ very comforting. And ⁓ I think placemaking is like you said. ⁓ I really like the synergy. ⁓ you know, how you how you just di described that. ⁓ I think it has got a lot of parallels ⁓ and it's considering what goes well together and how much of each piece you put together ⁓ for it to taste nice, to feel good ⁓ at the end.
speaker-0: Yeah, and it's if it was easy, everyone could do it as well. So, ⁓ that's why people spend hours scanning through reviews to make sure that they're ⁓ going to the best restaurants, et cetera. ⁓ so know knowing what you know now and having been on this journey from, as you say, Germany to South Africa to working on site to taking on more responsibility, it sounds like being thrown in the deep end very much so. To then to London, London, Newcastle, working on some amazing projects of all different types and asset classes and mixes, taking all of those learnings ⁓ and having had a bit of time to reflect, launching your own business, what would your advice be to your younger you if you were to sit down with them? ⁓
speaker-1: What would I advise myself? I think ⁓ maybe not hesitate so much, take the leaps earlier. I think you know instinctively when things are not right. You know, you can feel it, often you might not be happy and then it impacts your life in in many other ways and you decide to hang in because of perceived certainty or security But actually it's not making your life any happier. And I think, you know, there was a time when we were hoping we could have a family, for example. ⁓ as it turns out, we weren't able to have a family. But the reason why I'm saying this, I hung in there because I thought I needed a safe place. I knew it was wrong and I didn't move. ⁓ and so actually what I thought I needed to do at the time was completely wrong. I should have just moved on and maybe that would have had a better impact on on the other side of ⁓ so I hesitated sometimes maybe a bit too long and and equally sort of now the sort of starting my own business. Could I have done this earlier? Possibly I maybe hesitated so hesitate less and and sort of ⁓ believe a bit more in myself at at at times when it's when it's needed. ⁓ so yeah, I think that would be the advice to myself. Just don't hesitate. If you feel it's wrong, make change.
speaker-0: I think that's very poignant advice for those that are thinking in a market like this about which direction to take their career in, sometimes not happy but don't want to necessarily do anything about it. ⁓ yeah, I think the message in there, probably listen to your gut, which I think most people tend to be able to do further into their career. You know, even though it probably speaks to you in the same way earlier in your career, you maybe don't trust it as much or just worried about getting it wrong.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think i ⁓ it's particular even earlier in the career where at least it with hindsight, because you're not so set on a certain path, when you just look at when I described my journey, it went from all sorts of directions, you know, countries, you know, jobs that I had on all sides of the fence, ⁓ and it could have easily taken me in a completely different industry or sector. ⁓ But I think it's it's just ⁓ in your earlier career, I think if you if you just are a little bit open to sort of sideways and not being being afraid of of a change, ⁓ it it might actually take you down down some really exciting routes. And I think as you if you're younger, you know, you have the luxury of just trying out a few things and maybe That's an advice that, you know, try out something if you if you fancy it, what could possibly go go wrong?
speaker-0: Yeah, most things are recoverable, aren't they? I sometimes have this chat with people around their careers and what's important to them and you know, sometimes there's a debate around big company versus small company and and people have a perception that in a larger company you're safer. Actually sometimes you know, in smaller company your value can be seen more and therefore you're more likely to be safe because they actually know what you've done ⁓ and will fight to keep you. But ⁓ You don't always know that until a little bit later on. ⁓ and as you say, sometimes give it a try and if you don't like it, nothing's permanent.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I had a short stint, you know, for less than a year, working in a large consultancy, KPMG. They were trying to set up a development consultancy. ⁓ and I moved all the way from South Germany to Berlin to do this. And within a few months I knew this was the completely wrong path for for me. But you know, I gave it a go and then I changed again. And I think it's It's that sort of advice I would sort of give. Don't hesitate. ⁓ you can sort of feel when it's wrong. And it and sometimes I just hesitate it too too long. And and I think when you're young, you can you you have that luxury of just trying out something and see where it takes you.
speaker-0: Yeah, making sure it's explainable and you're making a decision with purpose. It sounds like that time you didn't spend too much time hesitating. But I've often posed the question when we're running a search process, you know, if someone's worked out that something isn't right and they've made a decision on that quicker, could that not be a good thing rather than a bad thing, rather than just compromising and settling? But ⁓ that's probably a whole different podcast in itself, to be honest. ⁓ so I was curious to learn that you s kind of started you got to London just before the GFC, exactly when I started doing what I do now. ⁓ very interesting times, ⁓ different to now, but with some parallels in terms of you know the world not being necessarily the mood music not being good in all quarters, ⁓ capital being patient. ⁓ i it's definitely not the same, but You have to show a lot of resilience during those times to stay in the game. ⁓ but fast forwarding to today in the current market where you know it's equally not the easiest time to do development, and some people might say it's even harder for certain reasons. What do you think are the skills needed when we think about what makes an exceptional development professional and and building our teams?
speaker-1: What makes an exceptional development professional ⁓ You know, I've met so many amazing people along the journey, but I would say it there's there's quite a few things ⁓ that are needed. Firstly, I think you need to sort of have a vision. It doesn't matter whether it's a residential or commercial or whatever development, it's like you gotta look at what's the place, etc., and sort of imagine and have a vision. What what's it going to be, and then also ask why. Imagine the outcome and sort of then almost work back fr from it. quite often I see people starting with that sort of financial aspect and then work back rather than, you know, what is this place? You know, how are we going to make something work here that is successful? And I think if you have that vision, ⁓ ask the question of why? Imagine the outcome. Of course the financial parameters and the outturre. But I think ⁓ those sort of things, those are skills that you you you don't see in in every development professional. And I think ⁓ you also need to be able to to change. Every development, doesn't matter which one I've been involved in, ⁓ is facing Challenges, like you said, you know, more now, maybe, or most certainly than than ⁓ before, but nevertheless, every single development had its very specific challenges. Some were quite significant. ⁓ you just mentioned the financial ⁓ global crisis where all of a sudden both our equity and debt funding was gone from one day to the next. So you had to completely you know, face into that and you have to be able to change quickly and adapt. And this world is only going faster in terms of changes. So I think the ability to be flexible and adapt. And what even once you've got a route and a plan to be prepared to change is is is important. ⁓ and then I think you have to be very mindful where your strong sides are and where your skill gaps are and then really surround yourself with the people that make up the bits that you don't have. So I think if you have all of those sort of ⁓ parts ⁓ together with you got to have a bit of a a good appetite for risk. You know, with being completely risk averse, you you you're not going to succeed. And you gotta have a really good gut feeling. ⁓ and that's not something you can describe as a skill, it's just something that you either develop or you just have. So I think there isn't one thing that makes an exceptional development professional. ⁓ I think it takes a whole range of of of things ⁓ that ⁓ that makes a sort of a really good development professional, maybe a bit you know, some people whether you know, that risk side, whether you need to be a little bit ruthless, I don't know. ⁓ ruthless is not the right word, but you gotta be able to take risks along the journey.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, otherwise go and do something else, I guess. There's ⁓ a lot of easier things to do. And you've got to make educated guesses on that, talking of that vision that you mentioned, you have an idea of how people will use a space with no guarantee that they'll actually want to use it at the end. So unless you're just selling off plan or, you know, doing a build to build to suit office building, you're creating a place and then hoping that they people will come. Otherwise not valuable.
speaker-1: Yes, but I d I think it's a bit more than hope because I do think you need to sort of consider the market, you need to consider the the environment. And and of course, right now you're not going to plan for something that has a huge amount of off plan sales because that market so if this is what you're hoping for, I think you sort of set yourself up for failure in this current market. I think it's it's like okay, what is the market like? what might the market be like when in in like one or two or three years, and of course you do make a judgment call of what that might be, but you gotta plan for this rather than for something that ⁓ you know. So I think being completely unrealistic and plan for something that was the right thing a few years ago is is going to be setting yourself up for failure. So I think is you you you got to tailor it to that sort of micro and macro local and wider ⁓ climate that y you find at the point in time.
speaker-0: Yeah, and you're you're creating places that almost predict human behaviour in the future in a world that, as you quite rightly pointed out, is changing quicker than ever. ⁓ I think you mentioned the point earlier around when you're working on site construction management, people wanted to work on your floor rather than other floors. that kind of not necessarily needing to know everything, but needing to know where your gaps are and who to ask. I think there's that, but it's also Making sure that they want to tell you and help you and buy into that and, you know, kind of motivate them. Make sure that they have a purpose and see that vision as well. ⁓ sounds like you've always done that well.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's an element of honesty, transparency, and also, you know, you built up your someone called it like your personal brand. And I think if people trust you also, you know, over time, that sort of that that brand that you've developed, that sort of carries an awful lot of weight in in the market also with you know, whether it's with investors, with ⁓ collaborators, ⁓ with your team, with if you have a boss, you know, going upwards. ⁓ and I think that ⁓ you know everyone needs to sort of think what that what that is for themselves to sort of how to how to then ⁓ because you can't be like someone else. You gotta find who who who are you and then how is this this going to translate into your own and personal successes and particularly if it is in the development world, how does that how does it work in that world?
speaker-0: I think ⁓ some really good lessons in there. So thank you for sharing and I'm sure people will be using that to kind of reflect, sense check their own thinking. ⁓ so I appreciate you taking some time to think on that. Fast fast forwarding to today, launched Bee House ⁓ fairly recently. Might not feel like recently, I'm not sure, but fairly recently. Could you could you share with us a bit more about current business, focus, that journey, how it's been?
speaker-1: It's been it's been ⁓ I mean you know it's been tough. I ended up being made redundant on the back of a restructurer after four and a bit years at Waits Residential early last year. and I certainly didn't see this coming and so I needed to sort of just at first put the head in the sand and then sort of sti ⁓ take it out and think about what what next and So I decided to form my own business, but that's complemented you mentioned that in the intro with a bit of a non-exec portfolio that I've sort of built up. And I've done this all concurrently and ⁓ so what I've realized is actually there needs to be, you know, I need to sort of balance that ⁓ properly. And so my focus has been very much on building the non-exact portfolio and establishing that in the right way. There are certainly different skill sets and ⁓ ways that I'm sort of learning still, ⁓ and maybe we'll we'll come to talk about that in a second. And concurrently I I sort of launched my own business earlier in the year. And it's probably fair to say that I haven't really pushed this business Very ⁓ very much. I wanted to sort of see how my non exec portfolio is sort of settling in, the time commitment for all of this before I make major commitments. ⁓ a, I don't want to overcommit myself and then, you know, not do any of these things good enough. ⁓ but also one of the things over the last year and a bit is like I've appreciate and value my my private time. Know I've got a lot more time ⁓ now for myself and ⁓ I really value this and so whilst I'm happy to sort of eat into it but I don't want to be too busy ⁓ again and so it's that balance. So B house ⁓ I founded that ⁓ earlier in the year and the way my offer is is I see it as a I call it a development ⁓ clinic. If you ⁓ if you think about if you if you're unwell and you go and see a doctor, you often might want to get a second opinion on something and I'm there to give that second opinion at sort of a crunch point, sort of have a look at this, what do you think? ⁓ and so that's that's the offer in in essence. That's what I do. and I probably will beginning of next year, ⁓ my third non-exec role is due to start in September. And once they all sort of settle down, I think that's the intention when I sort of then push Bee House a little bit more and and promote ⁓ promote this. ⁓ in the meantime I've got some really good discussions and intention is also collaborating with with other people in the industry because ⁓ there are lots of people like myself who started their own businesses and I mentioned earlier, you know, you all have strength in some area, but not in others. So we're talking about how do we how do we work together. ⁓ and that's probably gonna be happening later in the year, early part next year.
speaker-0: Awesome. So helping people that have challenging projects or distress or stuff they're trying to work through or trying to make viable, bringing them into your clinician's office, putting them on the table and and kind of trying to work those through with them.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. But sometimes it's even when you sort of think some organisations, like for example, private equity or you know, they don't have a development team. They often don't have even someone where they can bounce something off. So I get phone calls about what do you what do you think. ⁓ it's sometimes as simple as as that to just being able to bounce something off and talk it through with with someone or help set something up and find the right team to sort of mobilize or you know, it doesn't always have to be the sort of the major problem or the the viability crunch that everyone has. You know, I can't magic construction costs going down. ⁓ but I certainly can ⁓ you know there are all sorts of other crunches ⁓ you know planning or often it's people somewhere along the line there's something wrong with with with people. and So yeah, there's sort of key points in a project. and the interest that I've had has been mainly from organizations where they don't really have an in-house development team and don't even know at a point in time how to move it from from this bit where it is to the next to the next milestone. And so I help sort of with a bit of ⁓ you know, advice, oversight ⁓ on on on that front and and sometimes just being called into like team meetings where that sort of senior development level has has been made redundant elsewhere ⁓ and then occasionally coming in and give a bit of advice to that team ⁓ so that's also been an element of ⁓ w where where I've seen need or or ask in the industry.
speaker-0: Yeah, being able to use all of your lessons learned and experiences to to benefit others without necessarily being attached to one place. which again probably feeds nicely onto the non exec part that you mentioned. really pleased that you managed to make those happen. ⁓ and as you say, you've got your third starting soon. So what one of the questions I get asked a lot when I'm talking to senior people who've maybe been through a similar point of reflection, COVID
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: to now about life and balance and what the future holds and how hard do I want to push and how many years do I want to push for and how do I get, you know, some of my own time as well. ⁓ all of these things that people think about, I get asked around the transition into becoming an advisor or a non exec. Where do I start? How do I put myself in the right place? ⁓ without giving away all of the secrets. Is there any kind of high level advice that you would give to people from the lessons you've learned?
speaker-1: really any secrets ⁓ and in fact I've had quite a few people asking me those those questions and I mean maybe I've I've been lucky to a certain extent I I realized quite early that the network is important but it's also this is a slightly different network so ⁓ being able to be introduced to the right to the right people and knowing what sort of organizations you might be able to really make a difference as a non exec rather than sort of be too too broad. and there's sort of a You gotta have one to get one was always the rule that's ⁓ that's been that's been sort of waived in my in my in my face. and well I've I've had amazing people like not really coaches, but I had one or two people that really helped me on that journey. And the way they they did this was really challenging me on how how my what's the difference between executive member on a board and non-exec. And to a certain extent I'm still learning parts of that. Sometimes I sort of drift a little bit still in this sort of the executive side. But overall, after almost a year in my first role, I think I'm starting to really sort of get get into into the rhythm. But one particular person has been incredibly helpful who's been working in the non-exec world for a long time. And he's been doing dry runs with me, how to particularly when I had interviews lined up, how to and really challenged me ⁓ and helped me prepare for those interviews. And in fact, ⁓ advice to anyone if you go in an interview and it's something you really want, is that dry run and the preparation, if you have someone where that's not exactly something else, for me that was ⁓ fantastic. sort of ⁓ help to to get in and I've started helping others with sort of similar dry runs. And you know the the other thing I did, I sort of built up a little bit of a ⁓ rapport with key agents because there are agents that sort of operate in that in that field. It takes a while before you gain their trust and ⁓ but there are specific recruitment agencies that ⁓ that work in that non-exact world. And starting to build the relationship up. and the the last bit I would sort of say is really reading the ⁓ the application forms and packs, what exactly is this organization looking for? And then really set out very precisely how you deal with each of the points. And if there's one point you are not entirely so to give you an example, there was one role where I wasn't successful, but it was ⁓ chair of Remco. And you know, I felt very confident that I could that I could do this. And so I had to sort of draw on some of my executive experience to to pull this across. So you have to sort of find ways of setting it out very clearly or how you draw on your experience, even though it might not be exactly the same. ⁓ but how do you do it in a non exec in a non-exact role? And you have to be very mindful and set this out. And you normally have a page or two to do this. And your C V almost isn't as important as your as your covering note, where you set out exactly how you draw on your experience to date on each of those points and make that really set this out quite clearly. And I think if you if you have someone to help you prep, if you establish a relationship with the agents, work on your network and then really read very carefully what what is it that is needed and then be clear of what organizations you feel you can add value to. I think if you if you do that you should be successful.
speaker-0: Some gold there, I think. And you might get a few ⁓ messages off the back of this asking for some ⁓
speaker-1: I'm more than happy to help others on that journey.
speaker-0: Awesome. Sounds like you, you know, practice your own advice of backing yourself as well. There. ⁓ I think you know, s we won't go into why lots of hiring processes are broken, because ⁓ I could do a few hours on that. But you know, if if you like you have, think about why a business is looking to hire someone in the first place. Yes, there's a job description which is a list of tasks, but actually they're trying to solve a problem, unlock a challenge or growth. I if you'll start positioning yourself for that rather than the job itself and how you can enable them to achieve those things. You know, when we do a briefing, we talk a lot about what success is going to look like, kind of forget the spec, but what why did you even come to an idea that you needed someone? Because they might be able to solve that problem in a different slightly different shape than you might think. That's ultimately what people want. So it's not like a quick apply, send your C V and forget about it. Your C V says what you do. And what you've done, it doesn't necessarily say how you've done it.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And what you did, not not the the joint team. And I would say also one of the other things I think for my own success is always i you know, it's like you have to do a lot of research on the existing board. And you can sort of tell who might be who might be coming off the board. So understanding what the board has already. where the sort of specialities come in and what you might add what you might add to that board ⁓ and to this organization and how might you replace the person who's coming off because it's often someone who comes off ⁓ who needs to be replaced rather than completely new roles. I mean they are they do exist but it's it's understanding that in a bit more detail and really positioning yourself then in that in that gap that is being left and ⁓ why you ⁓ giving that thought and selling that, I think that will that will make you ultimately succeed.
speaker-0: So having changed tech a little bit with your career and maybe now being able to impact the industry in in a different way, maybe even a bigger way, because you're involved in more than one organization and therefore can kind of share your lessons with multiple people. As you look out into the market, we know that it's challenging. We've touched on that a little bit. But what do you think the biggest opportunities are over the next three to five years? What are you excited about? Why are you still getting out of bed every day with a spring in the step going, Right, let's go and do this.
speaker-1: What are the opportunities the next five years? I think it's really hard to say. ⁓ I think all we know is there's gonna be a huge amount of change still to come. yeah, I attended an event this week when when I just look at what the potential political outcomes are and then what the likely impact on on our industry is. ⁓ so expecting changes, but I think I mean my my focus has been residential, as you know, for the last good twenty or so years. And when I just look at the residential sector, I think fact is everyone, doesn't matter which part of the political spectrum, whilst they might all tackle that in a different way, but the need of affordable housing, I think there is no everyone appreciates that need. And so I think the opportunity remains in that in that sector. Affordable housing is something unless unless the it shifts and there is that need is tackled in a meaningful way. and I guess that's that's where the the where the opportunities are. And with that, you know, there there's all sorts of things that come that come with it. It's not just affordable housing, there's all sorts of other things. But ⁓ There's definitely going to be a huge amount of opportunity around that.
speaker-0: I guess that's what makes our industry so fascinating is it's so entwined with politics as you mentioned, but also people's lives, like you know, quality of the home or whether you have one at all, how quickly you get one, the condition of it. Yeah, that is one of the most important things in anyone's life. So absolutely the knock on effect, whether it goes well or not, it's huge, surely.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think ⁓ there's also and I guess that's also i from again from from government level down, there's much more focus, ⁓ and I don't think this is just in our sector or in our industry, on the end user, on the customer, on the consumer. ⁓ and that experience. And to a certain extent I think the industry has neglected that a little bit. You sort of build something and then you sort of okay, you forget about it. So I see the opportunity also in anyone who just thinks about building an estate management in different ways, you know, embracing technology, but really thinking about the consumer and the end user and how this is being maintained and serviced and that sort of end user satisfaction. I think there's there's gonna be lots of opportunities to sort of be be on the forefront there and be a bit different and if you combine that with development, I think you've got a you've got a good formula.
speaker-0: I think that's nice, nice way of summarising it. So as you know on the podcast, it's tradition to answer questions that the guest before has left you. ⁓ and in this case it was James Coursey from Trigon. I thought of James when you were talking earlier about thinking of the like what the space is going to be used for, what the vision is, because he talked about that on the podcast as well, being a development manager. Who's the client? What's the purpose? Is it for sale? Is it long term hold? I think you probably share some similar views on that. But James left you a question which is really easy to answer, which is ⁓ when future generations look back at today's construction industry, what materials or building practices do they think, or do you think, ⁓ they'll be seen as fundamentally outdated? And what regenerative building materials, except Mass Timber, do you think will be the materials of the future?
speaker-1: I think there were two questions. I think you need to pick a burn there.
speaker-0: Materials which mu materials or building practices do we think will be outdated? ⁓ and what do you think might be the materials of the future?
speaker-1: So I think in terms of what materials will be outdated, ⁓ I think anything to do with you know, types of insulation, such as extruded styrofoam, any any sort of plastic containing materials, I think those will be outdated ⁓ and they won't be won't be in in in use anymore. I think re generative building materials. ⁓ I think they will be plant-based. You know, and and you you or he are specifically about not mass timber, but I think when you look at what's already happening in packaging ⁓ in in sort of the food industry. so I do think that plant materials such as hemp or others That will accelerate. ⁓ and I could imagine that these sort of products, you know, in whether it's membranes, weatherproofing, insulation, in internal finishes, etc., I think we'll see more more of that. But I also think there might be some smart materials where technology plays a much, much bigger role. And I can't possibly sort of think of what that might be right now. But if you combine new technology and ⁓ AI, if you see what's happening in the design element and how AI is already starting to tr transform and just make design much more efficient, taking out some of the maybe over engineering, challenging forms ⁓ of you know, how things are being built, I think there will be new div new ways of designs and materials with with clever technology and and sort of ⁓ sensors integrated that we can't even imagine ⁓ at this point in time.
speaker-0: Yeah, that whole technology piece is fascinating, isn't it? And and real estate is not necessarily the first to adopt new tech, but you know, combine buildings now have BMS systems and IoT and smart buildings, but with AI, machine learning, how does that then progress to being able to either disassemble a building at the end and reuse it or catalogue what you've actually built out of it and manage You know, you buy you get a new car now and it tells you, you know, how each part is degrading and how long you've got and stuff like that. That that could be pretty cool using some of these new materials as well. Yeah.
speaker-1: If you if you think, you know, how that might work in a s circular ⁓ i economy, ⁓ I think could be really, really quite quite exciting. So I I think it's it's at the moment it's hard to imagine how AI, technology and all of that together, ⁓ what evolves in order to answer James's question here, is I think it's a little bit of the unknown, ⁓ but I think it's embracing this and and see see where it where it ⁓ where it takes us. But that combined I think with with much more plant based materials, ⁓ that will well that's at least my my view, we'll see in in a few years' time whether whether I'm right.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think we're all kind of waiting. Not that we want to fast track ⁓ time, but kind of fascinated to see what the future holds with without wanting to waste today. ⁓ some of those more manual labor skills that go into creation of a building have to be some of the last things that could ever be outsourced. So therefore, does it make the industry kind of more safe because of that? But where does the kind of human and technology bit combine to mean that we can build faster, safer? Differently. With less risk. I love these big questions because it kind of resets you kind of why are we doing this all in the first place? And in return for answering that one slash two slash three questions, ⁓ would you like to leave one for the the next guest ⁓ in return?
speaker-1: Yeah, true. Well I'm interested and always have ⁓ in sustainability in nature and it feels to me at the moment the industry is like there's either some that completely embrace it and go all the way or some that completely reject it because it it just costs extra money and we can't afford it. Let's just park this. So I think my question would be, what does your next person who you interview on the podcast think about the key focus should be in the industry that would really make a sort of a leap forward towards a much more sustainable way of either building or then living and working in in our buildings. ⁓ I know it's a very wide question, but I'd be interested to sort of see how, you know, what the thoughts of colleagues are in the industry ⁓ around that topic.
speaker-0: So out of all the levers we could pull, which one is going to have the most impact or which one's going to make the most of a leap rather than ⁓ you know small movements. Great. ⁓ I'll be sure to ask that to the next guest and and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule with us today. Always good talk. Really enjoyed sharing your journey, lessons learned. Had a brilliant career. I think you've got a a legacy that you should be proud of and excited to see.
speaker-1: It's a pleasure talking to you.
speaker-0: What you go on to do next?
speaker-1: Yeah, so am I. It's not just excited. Sometimes it's also a bit daunting. But I think what I've learned is if it's if it's not a little bit daunting, you're not gonna succeed. So you've got to have that little ⁓ niggle in the bottom of your stomach at times to in order to succeed.
speaker-0: That's a great quote to end on. Thanks, Bervale. We'll catch up soon. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. Your support means the world. Please feel free to like, share, or pass the podcast on to a friend or colleague. Do drop me a line with any suggestive topics you'd like us to cover on future episodes and recommendations of guests that you would love to see us interview. Till next time, go well.
speaker-1: Take care. Thanks, John.
speaker-1: Thank you, John. ⁓ I'm delighted to be here.
speaker-0: Great to have you. ⁓ so we like to start the show by going back to the beginning of your career. ⁓ could you share with the listeners a little bit more about what led you to end up in the wonderful world of real estate? Was it something that was written in the stars or were there a few sliding doors moments along the way?
speaker-1: I would say there were definitely a few sliding door moments along the way. ⁓ I was my my name gives gives away a little bit my origin. I was ⁓ I grew up in in Germany and I ended up studying architecture there, but it wasn't a straightforward route into architecture to start off with. I wanted to learn trade initially. My plan was to be a joiner or something a bit creative where you can always sort of fall back on. But without giving my precise age away, at the time when I wanted to do this, a woman in a trade was just some it just wasn't supported. ⁓ there weren't even the basic facilities in most sort of small businesses that would support apprenticeships. So that plan didn't work out so well at the time. And I ended up initially doing an apprenticeship as a draftsperson. And whilst this role or this job per se doesn't really much exist anymore, for me it almost helped finance my whole architect study that I ended up doing in in the end because I could do working drawings all along. and then once I sort of qualified as an architect, ⁓ I worked there, I really enjoyed this, and it was sort of through a number of sort of sliding door moments that we ended up today. First was an opportunity to go to South Africa. Again, there's a lot of background to this. and I ended up as a site architect in ⁓ in South Africa. And again, lots of different things happened there where the project then ⁓ for a number of reasons didn't go ahead, and I had to decide, do I stay? And maybe change, or do I go back to Germany and work as an architect? And I had an opportunity to join the contract, and I actually joined ⁓ decided to stay in South Africa and join a construction company, one of the biggest contractors in South Africa, and worked in construction management, managing trades, the whole thing. and and again, another sliding moment, then fell in love and ended up through that in England. ⁓ And that was a few years later. And then when we arrived here, I just needed a job really and that ended up in project management rather than going back into architecture at the time. Architects were not looking for people so much from you know outside the UK. It was all about UK experience. And then ⁓ you know, project management sort of looked at commercial, residential, all sorts of other projects and again ⁓ an opportunity arose and that sort of opened the door for me into residential development and I've been there ever since and I've really never looked back.
speaker-0: I think that's architecture's loss and development's gain, hopefully. ⁓ where when did you first get interested in development? It sounds like quite a natural progression, kind of took on more responsibility and then moved a bit closer to it. At what point did it become more purposeful? That you know, that's what I want to do.
speaker-1: Think it was like a very conscious ⁓ move, I would say. It was more about when I was working in project management and I had, as I said, a whole range of different sector projects. and one of the things we're working much closer with sort of key clients and their assets and their projects, and there was one project ⁓ which You may recall it's the old Middlesex hospital in the middle of London, which you know was out for a basically a tender. And ⁓ so we were looking to align our key client with a more of a residential experienced ⁓ developer. And I came across one of the founding partners of London Newcastle at the time, and He was just really inspiring. He inspired me. and i I didn't really sort of think much of it. But then a year later I got a phone call from a recruitment agent and said, Look, there was a role in London Newcastle. And because I had made that connection, ⁓ I didn't think twice, put myself forward and then made the transition and stayed there for thirteen years. And we had an an exceptional time there. And so it was it was again that sort of sliding door moment or whatever you want to call it, but it wasn't that I focused. That's what I want to do. It was an opportunity that came up and it felt right.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's been a bit of a common theme through the podcast series so far is this some people say it's luck, others might say it's putting yourself in the right place to take that opportunity. ⁓ so can you t share with us a bit more about your time at London Newcastle, what happened since then, some of your career highlights. ⁓ if you were to release the greatest hits of your career, what what would be on the?
speaker-1: So maybe the first question, my time since. So at London Newcastle, that was a big you know, it was thirteen years that I was there. I started as a development ⁓ manager and then within one or two years I was development director, but there wasn't a big business then anymore because two thousand and seven, when I joined, ⁓ there was a very different world to Two years later, so I joined literally just before the global financial crisis, and the whole business had to be ⁓ well, reinvented, reengineered, and I was very much part of the core team doing that. And ⁓ so from a developer owning the assets, we we changed into more of a development management business. And you know, whilst this was a very different proposition. It also allowed us to punch way above our weights with clients of you know from all sorts of spectrum, whether it's private equity, local authorities, housing associations, pension funds, and significantly large projects also. Whilst when we were a small developer and had our own assets, you can imagine the capital and just the financial means that we had, even though we we had significant financial means, but that there was maybe I don't know, 50 units or something, maybe 100 units, and all of a sudden, you know, the projects became significantly larger. So it was ⁓ it was a great time. and you asked about ⁓ you know the successes there. My highlights, it's that's really hard to say. ⁓ I would say in my career, the highlights, there's always a little bit of when you do something the first time and and you succeed and something that is a bit out of your comfort zone. So whether this was back in South Africa when I did some design and built, I was drawing my own buildings for yes, it was a private family home and then actually managing it and actually building it, ⁓ managing all of that. Or in London, the first huge planning consent, The first appeal win ⁓ when you see your first building of a sort of a significant size finished and people moving in. But for me, the biggest success is really is my influence on people, not so much the projects themselves. ⁓ and that's something that I'm really proud of. ⁓ so when people come back years later and said, without without my influence, without me, they would have never gotten to where they were ⁓ or would have never had the courage to sort of step up. and I certainly had a lot of moments like that. ⁓ and for me that that's probably the proudest I am when I look back on on my career, rather than the projects or the big planning consents or whatever it is, it's it's more the people and what influence up Apparently hard, you know, the the feedback of hat has been very humbling.
speaker-0: And I think ironically that's what led us together in the first place was a few people had said to me, ⁓ you need to know this lady. She's brilliant. you know, you you if you don't know her already, get to know. So that I guess is your legacy as much as anything, as you say, not just the places you create, although those are intrinsically linked to people's lives in a in a different kind of way. But yeah, being a leader. ⁓ yeah, could you touch a little bit more about that transition into leadership? What point did that happen at? When did you start to not just lead projects but ⁓ also lead teams and ⁓ how did your career then progress?
speaker-1: Think to a certain extent that starts quite early. so if I think back in South Africa in construction management, for example, I was put from one day to the next onto a large construction site that was running behind, and they needed all hands on deck because liquidated and estate damages were otherwise levied against the contractor. And so I was pulled off my project and put there. I was the only woman on a site which was like Trolling with people, and we had a deadline, and we needed to meet this deadline. And each of us construction managers, we had like one floor or two floors, I can't remember the details, but we had X amount of apartments we needed to hand over. And it was a bit of a competition between the various construction managers, and you know, to cut a long story short, I won that competition and In terms of leadership, and that goes back to what I said earlier, it's how you treat people rather than so I didn't just scream at people when they didn't do the things that I asked. ⁓ you know, I really treated the whole team with respect and so I ended up getting people preferring to work on my floors rather than the other floors where they were maybe more treated differently. And I guess that sort of set, not set me up, but that's always been my my sort of style. When you talk about leadership, you know, obviously my development director and sitting on a board that started at London Newcastle and then also then carried on into Waits Residential. But it's still the same traits that you learn along the way, you know, how you how you lead from the front, how you lead by example, or this that's the way I ⁓ look at ⁓ at leadership, very much believe in that ⁓ yeah, leading by example.
speaker-0: Have you ever thought about if you didn't end up in development, what you might have done instead? You might have already answered this question, but I'm curious.
speaker-1: ⁓ there's so many things. ⁓ so if I could turn back the clock, you know, what would I have done? And you know, there's there's so many things and even now where over the last year and a half is you know, I had to sort of bit almost like reinvent a little bit or rethink what do I want to do, and those things they came up again. And whether it is studying plants and herbs and their uses in culinary sort of cooking, going a little bit back to basics, what you find locally, or how to use it in medicine or or beauty products, or whether it is designing sets in movies or theater. I mean, you name it, you know, I'm interested in so many things. ⁓ it's really hard to say. And once you're on a journey, on a trajectory, It's it's impossible to say how life would have turned out, you know, when you go down a certain route.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm still waiting for my England call up, but it just hasn't quite come yet.
speaker-1: No, that sort of thing was never my ⁓ my my dream. ⁓ at least I I exactly. I think creative was always the the bit that ⁓ interested me.
speaker-0: There's always something creative though. Yeah, it sounds like you're ⁓ intellectually curious and ⁓ how you use things to create better things, ⁓ ingredients, which I guess, you know, kind of feeds into placemaking, doesn't it? How are the sum of these parts gonna create a better place overall? Is kind of a bit like a recipe.
speaker-1: I think that's actually I've never heard anyone ⁓ describing it that way, but I think that's exactly what it's ⁓ what it is. And you can ⁓ you know, even if you just make a ⁓ a really nice bowl of of pasta with tomato sauce, it can taste very bland, same as with residential development, or it can taste really quite interesting and ⁓ very comforting. And ⁓ I think placemaking is like you said. ⁓ I really like the synergy. ⁓ you know, how you how you just di described that. ⁓ I think it has got a lot of parallels ⁓ and it's considering what goes well together and how much of each piece you put together ⁓ for it to taste nice, to feel good ⁓ at the end.
speaker-0: Yeah, and it's if it was easy, everyone could do it as well. So, ⁓ that's why people spend hours scanning through reviews to make sure that they're ⁓ going to the best restaurants, et cetera. ⁓ so know knowing what you know now and having been on this journey from, as you say, Germany to South Africa to working on site to taking on more responsibility, it sounds like being thrown in the deep end very much so. To then to London, London, Newcastle, working on some amazing projects of all different types and asset classes and mixes, taking all of those learnings ⁓ and having had a bit of time to reflect, launching your own business, what would your advice be to your younger you if you were to sit down with them? ⁓
speaker-1: What would I advise myself? I think ⁓ maybe not hesitate so much, take the leaps earlier. I think you know instinctively when things are not right. You know, you can feel it, often you might not be happy and then it impacts your life in in many other ways and you decide to hang in because of perceived certainty or security But actually it's not making your life any happier. And I think, you know, there was a time when we were hoping we could have a family, for example. ⁓ as it turns out, we weren't able to have a family. But the reason why I'm saying this, I hung in there because I thought I needed a safe place. I knew it was wrong and I didn't move. ⁓ and so actually what I thought I needed to do at the time was completely wrong. I should have just moved on and maybe that would have had a better impact on on the other side of ⁓ so I hesitated sometimes maybe a bit too long and and equally sort of now the sort of starting my own business. Could I have done this earlier? Possibly I maybe hesitated so hesitate less and and sort of ⁓ believe a bit more in myself at at at times when it's when it's needed. ⁓ so yeah, I think that would be the advice to myself. Just don't hesitate. If you feel it's wrong, make change.
speaker-0: I think that's very poignant advice for those that are thinking in a market like this about which direction to take their career in, sometimes not happy but don't want to necessarily do anything about it. ⁓ yeah, I think the message in there, probably listen to your gut, which I think most people tend to be able to do further into their career. You know, even though it probably speaks to you in the same way earlier in your career, you maybe don't trust it as much or just worried about getting it wrong.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think i ⁓ it's particular even earlier in the career where at least it with hindsight, because you're not so set on a certain path, when you just look at when I described my journey, it went from all sorts of directions, you know, countries, you know, jobs that I had on all sides of the fence, ⁓ and it could have easily taken me in a completely different industry or sector. ⁓ But I think it's it's just ⁓ in your earlier career, I think if you if you just are a little bit open to sort of sideways and not being being afraid of of a change, ⁓ it it might actually take you down down some really exciting routes. And I think as you if you're younger, you know, you have the luxury of just trying out a few things and maybe That's an advice that, you know, try out something if you if you fancy it, what could possibly go go wrong?
speaker-0: Yeah, most things are recoverable, aren't they? I sometimes have this chat with people around their careers and what's important to them and you know, sometimes there's a debate around big company versus small company and and people have a perception that in a larger company you're safer. Actually sometimes you know, in smaller company your value can be seen more and therefore you're more likely to be safe because they actually know what you've done ⁓ and will fight to keep you. But ⁓ You don't always know that until a little bit later on. ⁓ and as you say, sometimes give it a try and if you don't like it, nothing's permanent.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I had a short stint, you know, for less than a year, working in a large consultancy, KPMG. They were trying to set up a development consultancy. ⁓ and I moved all the way from South Germany to Berlin to do this. And within a few months I knew this was the completely wrong path for for me. But you know, I gave it a go and then I changed again. And I think it's It's that sort of advice I would sort of give. Don't hesitate. ⁓ you can sort of feel when it's wrong. And it and sometimes I just hesitate it too too long. And and I think when you're young, you can you you have that luxury of just trying out something and see where it takes you.
speaker-0: Yeah, making sure it's explainable and you're making a decision with purpose. It sounds like that time you didn't spend too much time hesitating. But I've often posed the question when we're running a search process, you know, if someone's worked out that something isn't right and they've made a decision on that quicker, could that not be a good thing rather than a bad thing, rather than just compromising and settling? But ⁓ that's probably a whole different podcast in itself, to be honest. ⁓ so I was curious to learn that you s kind of started you got to London just before the GFC, exactly when I started doing what I do now. ⁓ very interesting times, ⁓ different to now, but with some parallels in terms of you know the world not being necessarily the mood music not being good in all quarters, ⁓ capital being patient. ⁓ i it's definitely not the same, but You have to show a lot of resilience during those times to stay in the game. ⁓ but fast forwarding to today in the current market where you know it's equally not the easiest time to do development, and some people might say it's even harder for certain reasons. What do you think are the skills needed when we think about what makes an exceptional development professional and and building our teams?
speaker-1: What makes an exceptional development professional ⁓ You know, I've met so many amazing people along the journey, but I would say it there's there's quite a few things ⁓ that are needed. Firstly, I think you need to sort of have a vision. It doesn't matter whether it's a residential or commercial or whatever development, it's like you gotta look at what's the place, etc., and sort of imagine and have a vision. What what's it going to be, and then also ask why. Imagine the outcome and sort of then almost work back fr from it. quite often I see people starting with that sort of financial aspect and then work back rather than, you know, what is this place? You know, how are we going to make something work here that is successful? And I think if you have that vision, ⁓ ask the question of why? Imagine the outcome. Of course the financial parameters and the outturre. But I think ⁓ those sort of things, those are skills that you you you don't see in in every development professional. And I think ⁓ you also need to be able to to change. Every development, doesn't matter which one I've been involved in, ⁓ is facing Challenges, like you said, you know, more now, maybe, or most certainly than than ⁓ before, but nevertheless, every single development had its very specific challenges. Some were quite significant. ⁓ you just mentioned the financial ⁓ global crisis where all of a sudden both our equity and debt funding was gone from one day to the next. So you had to completely you know, face into that and you have to be able to change quickly and adapt. And this world is only going faster in terms of changes. So I think the ability to be flexible and adapt. And what even once you've got a route and a plan to be prepared to change is is is important. ⁓ and then I think you have to be very mindful where your strong sides are and where your skill gaps are and then really surround yourself with the people that make up the bits that you don't have. So I think if you have all of those sort of ⁓ parts ⁓ together with you got to have a bit of a a good appetite for risk. You know, with being completely risk averse, you you you're not going to succeed. And you gotta have a really good gut feeling. ⁓ and that's not something you can describe as a skill, it's just something that you either develop or you just have. So I think there isn't one thing that makes an exceptional development professional. ⁓ I think it takes a whole range of of of things ⁓ that ⁓ that makes a sort of a really good development professional, maybe a bit you know, some people whether you know, that risk side, whether you need to be a little bit ruthless, I don't know. ⁓ ruthless is not the right word, but you gotta be able to take risks along the journey.
speaker-0: Well, yeah, otherwise go and do something else, I guess. There's ⁓ a lot of easier things to do. And you've got to make educated guesses on that, talking of that vision that you mentioned, you have an idea of how people will use a space with no guarantee that they'll actually want to use it at the end. So unless you're just selling off plan or, you know, doing a build to build to suit office building, you're creating a place and then hoping that they people will come. Otherwise not valuable.
speaker-1: Yes, but I d I think it's a bit more than hope because I do think you need to sort of consider the market, you need to consider the the environment. And and of course, right now you're not going to plan for something that has a huge amount of off plan sales because that market so if this is what you're hoping for, I think you sort of set yourself up for failure in this current market. I think it's it's like okay, what is the market like? what might the market be like when in in like one or two or three years, and of course you do make a judgment call of what that might be, but you gotta plan for this rather than for something that ⁓ you know. So I think being completely unrealistic and plan for something that was the right thing a few years ago is is going to be setting yourself up for failure. So I think is you you you got to tailor it to that sort of micro and macro local and wider ⁓ climate that y you find at the point in time.
speaker-0: Yeah, and you're you're creating places that almost predict human behaviour in the future in a world that, as you quite rightly pointed out, is changing quicker than ever. ⁓ I think you mentioned the point earlier around when you're working on site construction management, people wanted to work on your floor rather than other floors. that kind of not necessarily needing to know everything, but needing to know where your gaps are and who to ask. I think there's that, but it's also Making sure that they want to tell you and help you and buy into that and, you know, kind of motivate them. Make sure that they have a purpose and see that vision as well. ⁓ sounds like you've always done that well.
speaker-1: Yeah, I think there's an element of honesty, transparency, and also, you know, you built up your someone called it like your personal brand. And I think if people trust you also, you know, over time, that sort of that that brand that you've developed, that sort of carries an awful lot of weight in in the market also with you know, whether it's with investors, with ⁓ collaborators, ⁓ with your team, with if you have a boss, you know, going upwards. ⁓ and I think that ⁓ you know everyone needs to sort of think what that what that is for themselves to sort of how to how to then ⁓ because you can't be like someone else. You gotta find who who who are you and then how is this this going to translate into your own and personal successes and particularly if it is in the development world, how does that how does it work in that world?
speaker-0: I think ⁓ some really good lessons in there. So thank you for sharing and I'm sure people will be using that to kind of reflect, sense check their own thinking. ⁓ so I appreciate you taking some time to think on that. Fast fast forwarding to today, launched Bee House ⁓ fairly recently. Might not feel like recently, I'm not sure, but fairly recently. Could you could you share with us a bit more about current business, focus, that journey, how it's been?
speaker-1: It's been it's been ⁓ I mean you know it's been tough. I ended up being made redundant on the back of a restructurer after four and a bit years at Waits Residential early last year. and I certainly didn't see this coming and so I needed to sort of just at first put the head in the sand and then sort of sti ⁓ take it out and think about what what next and So I decided to form my own business, but that's complemented you mentioned that in the intro with a bit of a non-exec portfolio that I've sort of built up. And I've done this all concurrently and ⁓ so what I've realized is actually there needs to be, you know, I need to sort of balance that ⁓ properly. And so my focus has been very much on building the non-exact portfolio and establishing that in the right way. There are certainly different skill sets and ⁓ ways that I'm sort of learning still, ⁓ and maybe we'll we'll come to talk about that in a second. And concurrently I I sort of launched my own business earlier in the year. And it's probably fair to say that I haven't really pushed this business Very ⁓ very much. I wanted to sort of see how my non exec portfolio is sort of settling in, the time commitment for all of this before I make major commitments. ⁓ a, I don't want to overcommit myself and then, you know, not do any of these things good enough. ⁓ but also one of the things over the last year and a bit is like I've appreciate and value my my private time. Know I've got a lot more time ⁓ now for myself and ⁓ I really value this and so whilst I'm happy to sort of eat into it but I don't want to be too busy ⁓ again and so it's that balance. So B house ⁓ I founded that ⁓ earlier in the year and the way my offer is is I see it as a I call it a development ⁓ clinic. If you ⁓ if you think about if you if you're unwell and you go and see a doctor, you often might want to get a second opinion on something and I'm there to give that second opinion at sort of a crunch point, sort of have a look at this, what do you think? ⁓ and so that's that's the offer in in essence. That's what I do. and I probably will beginning of next year, ⁓ my third non-exec role is due to start in September. And once they all sort of settle down, I think that's the intention when I sort of then push Bee House a little bit more and and promote ⁓ promote this. ⁓ in the meantime I've got some really good discussions and intention is also collaborating with with other people in the industry because ⁓ there are lots of people like myself who started their own businesses and I mentioned earlier, you know, you all have strength in some area, but not in others. So we're talking about how do we how do we work together. ⁓ and that's probably gonna be happening later in the year, early part next year.
speaker-0: Awesome. So helping people that have challenging projects or distress or stuff they're trying to work through or trying to make viable, bringing them into your clinician's office, putting them on the table and and kind of trying to work those through with them.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. But sometimes it's even when you sort of think some organisations, like for example, private equity or you know, they don't have a development team. They often don't have even someone where they can bounce something off. So I get phone calls about what do you what do you think. ⁓ it's sometimes as simple as as that to just being able to bounce something off and talk it through with with someone or help set something up and find the right team to sort of mobilize or you know, it doesn't always have to be the sort of the major problem or the the viability crunch that everyone has. You know, I can't magic construction costs going down. ⁓ but I certainly can ⁓ you know there are all sorts of other crunches ⁓ you know planning or often it's people somewhere along the line there's something wrong with with with people. and So yeah, there's sort of key points in a project. and the interest that I've had has been mainly from organizations where they don't really have an in-house development team and don't even know at a point in time how to move it from from this bit where it is to the next to the next milestone. And so I help sort of with a bit of ⁓ you know, advice, oversight ⁓ on on on that front and and sometimes just being called into like team meetings where that sort of senior development level has has been made redundant elsewhere ⁓ and then occasionally coming in and give a bit of advice to that team ⁓ so that's also been an element of ⁓ w where where I've seen need or or ask in the industry.
speaker-0: Yeah, being able to use all of your lessons learned and experiences to to benefit others without necessarily being attached to one place. which again probably feeds nicely onto the non exec part that you mentioned. really pleased that you managed to make those happen. ⁓ and as you say, you've got your third starting soon. So what one of the questions I get asked a lot when I'm talking to senior people who've maybe been through a similar point of reflection, COVID
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: to now about life and balance and what the future holds and how hard do I want to push and how many years do I want to push for and how do I get, you know, some of my own time as well. ⁓ all of these things that people think about, I get asked around the transition into becoming an advisor or a non exec. Where do I start? How do I put myself in the right place? ⁓ without giving away all of the secrets. Is there any kind of high level advice that you would give to people from the lessons you've learned?
speaker-1: really any secrets ⁓ and in fact I've had quite a few people asking me those those questions and I mean maybe I've I've been lucky to a certain extent I I realized quite early that the network is important but it's also this is a slightly different network so ⁓ being able to be introduced to the right to the right people and knowing what sort of organizations you might be able to really make a difference as a non exec rather than sort of be too too broad. and there's sort of a You gotta have one to get one was always the rule that's ⁓ that's been that's been sort of waived in my in my in my face. and well I've I've had amazing people like not really coaches, but I had one or two people that really helped me on that journey. And the way they they did this was really challenging me on how how my what's the difference between executive member on a board and non-exec. And to a certain extent I'm still learning parts of that. Sometimes I sort of drift a little bit still in this sort of the executive side. But overall, after almost a year in my first role, I think I'm starting to really sort of get get into into the rhythm. But one particular person has been incredibly helpful who's been working in the non-exec world for a long time. And he's been doing dry runs with me, how to particularly when I had interviews lined up, how to and really challenged me ⁓ and helped me prepare for those interviews. And in fact, ⁓ advice to anyone if you go in an interview and it's something you really want, is that dry run and the preparation, if you have someone where that's not exactly something else, for me that was ⁓ fantastic. sort of ⁓ help to to get in and I've started helping others with sort of similar dry runs. And you know the the other thing I did, I sort of built up a little bit of a ⁓ rapport with key agents because there are agents that sort of operate in that in that field. It takes a while before you gain their trust and ⁓ but there are specific recruitment agencies that ⁓ that work in that non-exact world. And starting to build the relationship up. and the the last bit I would sort of say is really reading the ⁓ the application forms and packs, what exactly is this organization looking for? And then really set out very precisely how you deal with each of the points. And if there's one point you are not entirely so to give you an example, there was one role where I wasn't successful, but it was ⁓ chair of Remco. And you know, I felt very confident that I could that I could do this. And so I had to sort of draw on some of my executive experience to to pull this across. So you have to sort of find ways of setting it out very clearly or how you draw on your experience, even though it might not be exactly the same. ⁓ but how do you do it in a non exec in a non-exact role? And you have to be very mindful and set this out. And you normally have a page or two to do this. And your C V almost isn't as important as your as your covering note, where you set out exactly how you draw on your experience to date on each of those points and make that really set this out quite clearly. And I think if you if you have someone to help you prep, if you establish a relationship with the agents, work on your network and then really read very carefully what what is it that is needed and then be clear of what organizations you feel you can add value to. I think if you if you do that you should be successful.
speaker-0: Some gold there, I think. And you might get a few ⁓ messages off the back of this asking for some ⁓
speaker-1: I'm more than happy to help others on that journey.
speaker-0: Awesome. Sounds like you, you know, practice your own advice of backing yourself as well. There. ⁓ I think you know, s we won't go into why lots of hiring processes are broken, because ⁓ I could do a few hours on that. But you know, if if you like you have, think about why a business is looking to hire someone in the first place. Yes, there's a job description which is a list of tasks, but actually they're trying to solve a problem, unlock a challenge or growth. I if you'll start positioning yourself for that rather than the job itself and how you can enable them to achieve those things. You know, when we do a briefing, we talk a lot about what success is going to look like, kind of forget the spec, but what why did you even come to an idea that you needed someone? Because they might be able to solve that problem in a different slightly different shape than you might think. That's ultimately what people want. So it's not like a quick apply, send your C V and forget about it. Your C V says what you do. And what you've done, it doesn't necessarily say how you've done it.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And what you did, not not the the joint team. And I would say also one of the other things I think for my own success is always i you know, it's like you have to do a lot of research on the existing board. And you can sort of tell who might be who might be coming off the board. So understanding what the board has already. where the sort of specialities come in and what you might add what you might add to that board ⁓ and to this organization and how might you replace the person who's coming off because it's often someone who comes off ⁓ who needs to be replaced rather than completely new roles. I mean they are they do exist but it's it's understanding that in a bit more detail and really positioning yourself then in that in that gap that is being left and ⁓ why you ⁓ giving that thought and selling that, I think that will that will make you ultimately succeed.
speaker-0: So having changed tech a little bit with your career and maybe now being able to impact the industry in in a different way, maybe even a bigger way, because you're involved in more than one organization and therefore can kind of share your lessons with multiple people. As you look out into the market, we know that it's challenging. We've touched on that a little bit. But what do you think the biggest opportunities are over the next three to five years? What are you excited about? Why are you still getting out of bed every day with a spring in the step going, Right, let's go and do this.
speaker-1: What are the opportunities the next five years? I think it's really hard to say. ⁓ I think all we know is there's gonna be a huge amount of change still to come. yeah, I attended an event this week when when I just look at what the potential political outcomes are and then what the likely impact on on our industry is. ⁓ so expecting changes, but I think I mean my my focus has been residential, as you know, for the last good twenty or so years. And when I just look at the residential sector, I think fact is everyone, doesn't matter which part of the political spectrum, whilst they might all tackle that in a different way, but the need of affordable housing, I think there is no everyone appreciates that need. And so I think the opportunity remains in that in that sector. Affordable housing is something unless unless the it shifts and there is that need is tackled in a meaningful way. and I guess that's that's where the the where the opportunities are. And with that, you know, there there's all sorts of things that come that come with it. It's not just affordable housing, there's all sorts of other things. But ⁓ There's definitely going to be a huge amount of opportunity around that.
speaker-0: I guess that's what makes our industry so fascinating is it's so entwined with politics as you mentioned, but also people's lives, like you know, quality of the home or whether you have one at all, how quickly you get one, the condition of it. Yeah, that is one of the most important things in anyone's life. So absolutely the knock on effect, whether it goes well or not, it's huge, surely.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think ⁓ there's also and I guess that's also i from again from from government level down, there's much more focus, ⁓ and I don't think this is just in our sector or in our industry, on the end user, on the customer, on the consumer. ⁓ and that experience. And to a certain extent I think the industry has neglected that a little bit. You sort of build something and then you sort of okay, you forget about it. So I see the opportunity also in anyone who just thinks about building an estate management in different ways, you know, embracing technology, but really thinking about the consumer and the end user and how this is being maintained and serviced and that sort of end user satisfaction. I think there's there's gonna be lots of opportunities to sort of be be on the forefront there and be a bit different and if you combine that with development, I think you've got a you've got a good formula.
speaker-0: I think that's nice, nice way of summarising it. So as you know on the podcast, it's tradition to answer questions that the guest before has left you. ⁓ and in this case it was James Coursey from Trigon. I thought of James when you were talking earlier about thinking of the like what the space is going to be used for, what the vision is, because he talked about that on the podcast as well, being a development manager. Who's the client? What's the purpose? Is it for sale? Is it long term hold? I think you probably share some similar views on that. But James left you a question which is really easy to answer, which is ⁓ when future generations look back at today's construction industry, what materials or building practices do they think, or do you think, ⁓ they'll be seen as fundamentally outdated? And what regenerative building materials, except Mass Timber, do you think will be the materials of the future?
speaker-1: I think there were two questions. I think you need to pick a burn there.
speaker-0: Materials which mu materials or building practices do we think will be outdated? ⁓ and what do you think might be the materials of the future?
speaker-1: So I think in terms of what materials will be outdated, ⁓ I think anything to do with you know, types of insulation, such as extruded styrofoam, any any sort of plastic containing materials, I think those will be outdated ⁓ and they won't be won't be in in in use anymore. I think re generative building materials. ⁓ I think they will be plant-based. You know, and and you you or he are specifically about not mass timber, but I think when you look at what's already happening in packaging ⁓ in in sort of the food industry. so I do think that plant materials such as hemp or others That will accelerate. ⁓ and I could imagine that these sort of products, you know, in whether it's membranes, weatherproofing, insulation, in internal finishes, etc., I think we'll see more more of that. But I also think there might be some smart materials where technology plays a much, much bigger role. And I can't possibly sort of think of what that might be right now. But if you combine new technology and ⁓ AI, if you see what's happening in the design element and how AI is already starting to tr transform and just make design much more efficient, taking out some of the maybe over engineering, challenging forms ⁓ of you know, how things are being built, I think there will be new div new ways of designs and materials with with clever technology and and sort of ⁓ sensors integrated that we can't even imagine ⁓ at this point in time.
speaker-0: Yeah, that whole technology piece is fascinating, isn't it? And and real estate is not necessarily the first to adopt new tech, but you know, combine buildings now have BMS systems and IoT and smart buildings, but with AI, machine learning, how does that then progress to being able to either disassemble a building at the end and reuse it or catalogue what you've actually built out of it and manage You know, you buy you get a new car now and it tells you, you know, how each part is degrading and how long you've got and stuff like that. That that could be pretty cool using some of these new materials as well. Yeah.
speaker-1: If you if you think, you know, how that might work in a s circular ⁓ i economy, ⁓ I think could be really, really quite quite exciting. So I I think it's it's at the moment it's hard to imagine how AI, technology and all of that together, ⁓ what evolves in order to answer James's question here, is I think it's a little bit of the unknown, ⁓ but I think it's embracing this and and see see where it where it ⁓ where it takes us. But that combined I think with with much more plant based materials, ⁓ that will well that's at least my my view, we'll see in in a few years' time whether whether I'm right.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think we're all kind of waiting. Not that we want to fast track ⁓ time, but kind of fascinated to see what the future holds with without wanting to waste today. ⁓ some of those more manual labor skills that go into creation of a building have to be some of the last things that could ever be outsourced. So therefore, does it make the industry kind of more safe because of that? But where does the kind of human and technology bit combine to mean that we can build faster, safer? Differently. With less risk. I love these big questions because it kind of resets you kind of why are we doing this all in the first place? And in return for answering that one slash two slash three questions, ⁓ would you like to leave one for the the next guest ⁓ in return?
speaker-1: Yeah, true. Well I'm interested and always have ⁓ in sustainability in nature and it feels to me at the moment the industry is like there's either some that completely embrace it and go all the way or some that completely reject it because it it just costs extra money and we can't afford it. Let's just park this. So I think my question would be, what does your next person who you interview on the podcast think about the key focus should be in the industry that would really make a sort of a leap forward towards a much more sustainable way of either building or then living and working in in our buildings. ⁓ I know it's a very wide question, but I'd be interested to sort of see how, you know, what the thoughts of colleagues are in the industry ⁓ around that topic.
speaker-0: So out of all the levers we could pull, which one is going to have the most impact or which one's going to make the most of a leap rather than ⁓ you know small movements. Great. ⁓ I'll be sure to ask that to the next guest and and thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule with us today. Always good talk. Really enjoyed sharing your journey, lessons learned. Had a brilliant career. I think you've got a a legacy that you should be proud of and excited to see.
speaker-1: It's a pleasure talking to you.
speaker-0: What you go on to do next?
speaker-1: Yeah, so am I. It's not just excited. Sometimes it's also a bit daunting. But I think what I've learned is if it's if it's not a little bit daunting, you're not gonna succeed. So you've got to have that little ⁓ niggle in the bottom of your stomach at times to in order to succeed.
speaker-0: That's a great quote to end on. Thanks, Bervale. We'll catch up soon. Thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. Your support means the world. Please feel free to like, share, or pass the podcast on to a friend or colleague. Do drop me a line with any suggestive topics you'd like us to cover on future episodes and recommendations of guests that you would love to see us interview. Till next time, go well.
speaker-1: Take care. Thanks, John.
