WEBVTT
00:00:20.000 -->
00:00:22.160Hello, welcome back, meaning seekers.
00:00:22.160 -->
00:00:23.679I am your host, Dr.
00:00:23.679 -->
00:00:28.399Dirk Winter, child and adult psychiatrist and fellow meaning seeker.
00:00:28.399 -->
00:00:37.439In this show, I take you along as I enter various healing communities, learn new models of the mind, meet fascinating healers.
00:00:37.439 -->
00:00:50.399My intention is to figure out what other healers have learned about what Victor Frankel says is the central human question: meaning, how we create meaning in our lives.
00:00:50.399 -->
00:01:01.039I want to learn what people know, and I want to become able to apply that to my own life, and I want to bring those insights back to you.
00:01:01.039 -->
00:01:10.640Today we are going to explore what happens when you combine group therapy, ketamine, and internal family systems therapy.
00:01:10.640 -->
00:01:19.040This combination has become increasingly popular in retreat settings, and I wanted to understand it more deeply.
00:01:19.040 -->
00:01:31.040So I traveled to Asheville, North Carolina, to take part in one of these group ketamine-assisted IFS experiences led by Ted Riskin, who is one of the leaders in this field.
00:01:31.040 -->
00:01:33.519Ted is an interesting guy.
00:01:33.519 -->
00:01:41.200He started as a computer programmer living in an ashram, and then later trained as a social worker.
00:01:41.200 -->
00:02:02.959Along the way, he integrated conventional therapy approaches with energy psychology and holotropic breathwork, as developed by Stan Groff, and then went on to become an expert in internal family systems therapy and in group work and in ketamine and psychedelics.
00:02:02.959 -->
00:02:11.120So he's done a lot and he has led many of these retreats at his beautiful home in Asheville, North Carolina.
00:02:11.120 -->
00:02:23.360And there he co-creates these group healing experiences with Amy Borsky Duffer, who is a dance and movement therapist and is also a central part of these experiences.
00:02:23.360 -->
00:02:29.039You won't meet her today, but if you ever participate in these retreats yourself, you will meet her.
00:02:29.039 -->
00:02:36.800I'll also mention that one of Ted's areas of expertise is his interest in anger.
00:02:36.800 -->
00:02:46.000And we learned today that anger is something that we don't always need to suppress or push away.
00:02:46.000 -->
00:02:50.639Anger can be something that we need to listen to and respect.
00:02:50.639 -->
00:02:59.039It can signal that something important is happening, a boundary is being crossed, we are not being treated right.
00:02:59.039 -->
00:03:10.159And at several points during this weeklong experience, we didn't just talk about anger, we expressed it fully with a baseball bat and a cushion and a lot of sound.
00:03:10.159 -->
00:03:13.840So in this episode, I will take you inside this week-long experience.
00:03:13.840 -->
00:03:22.960First, you will hear my conversation with Ted Riskin, and then in the next episode, I will share my audio diary from this retreat experience.
00:03:22.960 -->
00:03:26.560So come along, let's do this.
00:03:26.560 -->
00:03:29.680Please enjoy my conversation with Ted Risken.
00:03:29.680 -->
00:03:37.599Welcome, Ted.
00:03:37.599 -->
00:03:45.439I'm so happy to get to talk to you after doing the ketamine group experience with you.
00:03:45.439 -->
00:03:57.360Since this is kind of an IFS podcast, sometimes I I'll uh uh start with a Tammy Sollenberger question of what do you see out your window um right now?
00:03:57.360 -->
00:04:04.479I see a sunny day, I see uh my solar panels and a lot of greenery, which I love.
00:04:04.719 -->
00:04:08.000Um I'm not tempted to go out there because I know it's hot.
00:04:08.400 -->
00:04:08.719Ah.
00:04:08.719 -->
00:04:16.319So you're in your beautiful home in Asheville, which I got to stay at and visit.
00:04:16.319 -->
00:04:26.800And so this brings me to my question of what kind of a healer are you, and what does your world look like right now as a healer?
00:04:26.800 -->
00:04:28.399And then we'll get to the story.
00:04:28.399 -->
00:04:38.959But I had the fortune or pleasure of being able to visit you and participate at your home in one of your healing experiences.
00:04:38.959 -->
00:04:55.120And and maybe you don't see all of this outside your window, but I got to stay in your Airbnb upstairs, and so you are right next to these beautiful trees and nature and and stream, and you've really built an amazing home where you host your groups.
00:04:55.120 -->
00:05:01.920And so maybe paint a picture of what your life looks like right now as a healer.
00:05:02.240 -->
00:05:02.720Hmm.
00:05:02.959 -->
00:05:10.160So on the life aspect, I guess I'm always moving towards balance the best I can.
00:05:10.160 -->
00:05:14.639So my life isn't my work, although it's a big part of it.
00:05:14.639 -->
00:05:21.759So yeah, my life feels like just always shifting around and feeling into what would be a balance.
00:05:22.160 -->
00:05:23.600So tell me about the balance.
00:05:23.600 -->
00:05:28.240What does balance look like right now, maybe this week or this month?
00:05:28.879 -->
00:05:39.360So, you know, in IFS we say we have parts, and also we would say that self doesn't have an agenda, and so but my parts do.
00:05:39.360 -->
00:05:45.600So I have a lot of different parts that want different things, and those things often conflict uh with each other.
00:05:45.600 -->
00:05:51.120And um so I definitely have a part that's like, why would you do anything other than work?
00:05:51.120 -->
00:05:55.360It's so amazing what you get to do, but then other parts are like, what?
00:05:55.360 -->
00:05:57.360Like, don't do that so much.
00:05:57.360 -->
00:06:12.800Like, we we want to just relax or we wanna go have fun experiences, and I feel my job as self is to hear them all and find a balance that they can all feel like, okay, getting enough of what I need, and it seems fair.
00:06:12.800 -->
00:06:23.680So just to expand upon what I just said a little bit, I would say self is who from this model we would want to come from, who we are.
00:06:23.680 -->
00:06:33.199And it's as I said, there's no agenda in self, but there's a perspective, there's witnessing, there's presence, there's spaciousness.
00:06:33.199 -->
00:06:43.120And then if I'm gonna be here in a body, I mean if I if that's all I'm gonna experience, I might as well not even be on the planet because I don't need to be on the planet to experience that.
00:06:43.120 -->
00:06:49.600But if I'm here, then I need my parts to be able to enjoy what's going on and take advantage of it.
00:06:49.600 -->
00:06:57.040And and there's so many fun attractions at this amusement park, and they all want to do their thing.
00:06:57.040 -->
00:07:12.720And you know what's interesting about the model is what happens when all these different parts are happening in the same system and they start to push against each other, or one starts to feel like a threat to the other, or they can't agree on where we should go as a person.
00:07:13.279 -->
00:07:17.519I love the model, and we're gonna get into it.
00:07:17.519 -->
00:07:28.079Curious, what is so you run groups using IFS and Cadamine, and you host those groups, you do individual therapy.
00:07:28.079 -->
00:07:35.279Like, how does your professional life break down and how does the social life balance complement that right now?
00:07:35.759 -->
00:07:40.560Well, this summer the balance is moving towards more not working.
00:07:40.560 -->
00:07:48.560And um some of my parts are very happy about that, and a few are like, I hope this doesn't go too far in this direction.
00:07:48.560 -->
00:07:53.279But in terms of of the work, you know, you say, well, what kind of healer am I?
00:07:53.279 -->
00:08:03.519I mean, I don't I don't it doesn't feel good to put myself in a box or say that I'm sort of exclusively applying a certain model.
00:08:03.519 -->
00:08:10.319I can tell you what I think healing is, and and then what I do is sort of different ways to try to affect that.
00:08:10.720 -->
00:08:11.439That sounds good.
00:08:11.519 -->
00:08:12.560Yeah, let's start there.
00:08:12.560 -->
00:08:23.199So from an IFS perspective, healing would be becoming more whole, and they come from the same root, uh wholeness.
00:08:23.199 -->
00:08:28.560And what makes me not whole is that I have parts that are exiled or split off.
00:08:28.560 -->
00:08:43.440So healing to me just means finding these parts that have been split off and re-establishing connection to the center, to self, and welcoming them into the system where they're welcome to be experienced.
00:08:43.440 -->
00:08:53.039And it's the trick of that is that two other parts, which we will call protectors, that is a bad idea.
00:08:53.759 -->
00:08:57.679Because can can you give an example for yourself?
00:08:58.639 -->
00:08:59.120Sure.
00:08:59.120 -->
00:09:02.320So I have a part that feels shame.
00:09:02.320 -->
00:09:04.399Like I suck.
00:09:04.399 -->
00:09:14.960I like I I got nothing good to offer, and I'm just kind of useless and not really worthwhile.
00:09:14.960 -->
00:09:21.279And that is a part that feels threatening to the system.
00:09:21.279 -->
00:09:29.120I mean, if I get overwhelmed with that experience, I'm not gonna be able to function well.
00:09:29.120 -->
00:09:34.159And so protectors take on the job of keeping that away.
00:09:34.159 -->
00:09:37.759And just to be a little IFS-y, we call the managers and firefighters.
00:09:37.759 -->
00:09:46.080So the managers are gonna live a life where I accomplish enough to ward off that sense that I'm really not worth much.
00:09:46.080 -->
00:09:54.879And in order to find these exiles and reconnect with them, somehow the protectors have to give us access.
00:09:54.879 -->
00:10:11.279And to me, that's the art of how do we get the protectors to give us access to these exiles so that we can bring them back into the system, given that in their in our history, the protectors have learned it's dangerous.
00:10:11.279 -->
00:10:14.639Because when I'm a little person, I can't hold that.
00:10:14.639 -->
00:10:21.679I can't I'm not big enough to hold the intense experience of these exiles.
00:10:21.679 -->
00:10:28.159And so when I'm young, I have to keep them away to not be swamped and overwhelmed by them.
00:10:28.159 -->
00:10:30.879And so protectors that worked.
00:10:30.879 -->
00:10:32.399That you know, that's worked for them.
00:10:32.399 -->
00:10:34.159Like, well, that that's worked their whole life.
00:10:34.159 -->
00:10:36.720We've survived this, so we're gonna keep doing it.
00:10:36.720 -->
00:10:41.440So they don't tend to like bringing the exiles back into the system.
00:10:42.000 -->
00:10:46.000So you're talking about uh shame, not good enough exile.
00:10:46.000 -->
00:10:52.240And one thing that I like about the model is I feel like I have that part.
00:10:52.240 -->
00:10:57.039Many people have similar exiles we can connect and share.
00:10:57.039 -->
00:11:02.879One question I have about exiles is do exiles have a function?
00:11:02.879 -->
00:11:07.200What is the job, or I guess they don't have a job?
00:11:07.200 -->
00:11:14.000That's the difference between an exile and a manager, is an exile does not have a job per se, or how do you think about this?
00:11:14.399 -->
00:11:16.240That's exactly how I see it.
00:11:16.240 -->
00:11:19.759If I'm trying to understand, hmm, is this an exile or a protector?
00:11:19.759 -->
00:11:24.799I would just ask, is this part trying to do anything or make anything happen?
00:11:24.799 -->
00:11:27.440And if so, I would see it as a protector.
00:11:27.440 -->
00:11:38.799And if not, you know, exiles to me just have their feelings and they have often some beliefs that are difficult, but they're not wanting to make anything happen.
00:11:38.799 -->
00:11:40.159Now, some of this is arbitrary.
00:11:40.159 -->
00:11:41.679How do you call something?
00:11:41.679 -->
00:11:50.240And you might have an exile kind of paired with a protector that's trying to keep those feelings of the exile away, and you might say, well, that's the exile that doesn't want to feel that.
00:11:50.240 -->
00:11:52.960I think it can work either way, but I like separating it out.
00:11:52.960 -->
00:11:58.240So the protectors are trying to do something like make me not feel those exile feelings.
00:11:58.240 -->
00:12:00.320The exiles are just holding the feelings.
00:12:00.639 -->
00:12:01.360I like that.
00:12:01.360 -->
00:12:07.519Sometimes I think of exiles as having their job is to hold the memory.
00:12:07.519 -->
00:12:14.240Like if there's some traumatic experience or something bad that happened, we need to learn from that.
00:12:14.240 -->
00:12:18.639We need to be aware of that so that the same thing doesn't keep happening.
00:12:18.639 -->
00:12:33.039So they, I guess, store that information of the painful experience, and then our system builds adaptive functions around that.
00:12:33.039 -->
00:12:35.039How does that sound to you?
00:12:35.519 -->
00:12:36.159It's interesting.
00:12:36.159 -->
00:12:45.279Do you do you feel that they have that as an intention, or is it just a byproduct of their being there that we're we're sort of holding that memory?
00:12:45.279 -->
00:12:46.639Do you think they have a conscious intention?
00:12:46.639 -->
00:12:49.039Like, I need to hold this memory for the system.
00:12:49.519 -->
00:12:51.519I don't necessarily think that.
00:12:51.519 -->
00:13:09.759I think it's more that that's just the biology of how we're built and how we evolve, and that it's a lot of those imprints become unnecessary to hold on to, but stay there.
00:13:09.759 -->
00:13:22.159And so what IFS does is gets back to these exiles and unburdens or reprograms them so that their the system overall becomes more peaceful.
00:13:22.159 -->
00:13:30.240So it's not an intention, it's not a conscious it intention, but I'm still sort of working it out, figuring it out for myself.
00:13:30.639 -->
00:13:43.200Yeah, I mean, and and besides that, they without necessarily having an intention, they bring certain qualities of self like playfulness and innocence and spontaneity and openness.
00:13:43.200 -->
00:13:51.759And so there's a lot of good that comes from exiles, but it feels to me like they're not having an intention to do any of that.
00:13:52.159 -->
00:13:53.360That makes sense to me.
00:13:53.360 -->
00:14:07.440So maybe we'll loop back to this, but now I'd love to hear your story of becoming a healer, starting with where were you born?
00:14:07.440 -->
00:14:20.159And uh, and was there anything in the ether, either genetically or environmentally, that that sort of set you up to to kind of go in a healing direction?
00:14:20.159 -->
00:14:21.600That's interesting.
00:14:21.840 -->
00:14:30.159Yeah, and so part of me wants to say I I I hope we do circle back to more conversation about how to work with those protectors.
00:14:30.159 -->
00:14:39.840Because in a way, that would be my answer, is what I see my job is to find ways to get access through the protectors to the exiles.
00:14:39.840 -->
00:14:41.440But yes, we can come back to that.
00:14:41.440 -->
00:14:46.159I don't, you know, I I don't so I have parts that believe different things.
00:14:46.159 -->
00:14:50.000I really don't know like where I was born, does that make a difference?
00:14:50.000 -->
00:14:55.519I think mostly I don't pay much attention to these kinds of things.
00:14:55.519 -->
00:14:59.039But I was born in uh just outside of Cleveland, Ohio.
00:14:59.039 -->
00:15:12.639And um I guess what was in the air was that you know, I was born into an intellectual family, and so logic and reasoning was valued, intelligence.
00:15:12.639 -->
00:15:28.159And then how that kind of affected my trajectory of of the work I do is I worked as a uh computer programmer and systems analyst, and then became interested myself in the inner world.
00:15:28.480 -->
00:15:38.240And is there like I I I'm always curious, uh are there sort of sliding door moments that I mean that's a big career shift.
00:15:38.799 -->
00:16:02.399You know what a but as you said that what popped into my head is so I was following a spiritual path and also intended to go to medical school, and I was at an interview and was basically told I'm in, like by one uh, you know, in this this they have a clinical interviewer and a and an academic.
00:16:02.399 -->
00:16:04.240The clinical one said, Yeah, you're good.
00:16:04.240 -->
00:16:13.600The academic one asked me a question about Angola, and I just went off on this thing, like, I don't know what that is, I don't I don't read the news, I'm not interested.
00:16:13.600 -->
00:16:16.159And she was incredulous, like, why don't you?
00:16:16.159 -->
00:16:24.879And then I started telling her about my spiritual teacher and how I wanted to live in an ashram, and that pretty much guaranteed that I was not admitted to medical school.
00:16:24.879 -->
00:16:27.919So that was a that was a fork in the road.
00:16:28.240 -->
00:16:31.120Did you at that time regret being so honest?
00:16:31.120 -->
00:16:37.120I guess a little part of me was like, oh, I just threw that away.
00:16:37.519 -->
00:16:47.840But I was pretty clear that and I haven't had regrets since, yeah, somehow I feel more freedom not being in that kind of constraint.
00:16:48.480 -->
00:16:50.320So then where did you go from there?
00:16:50.639 -->
00:17:00.399Well, to so to be in this spiritual community, I needed a job, and uh I sort of eked out a degree in math from the school I was going to.
00:17:00.399 -->
00:17:06.559They just wanted to get rid of me at that point, so they gave me the degree and I got a job in computers.
00:17:06.559 -->
00:17:09.920And how long did I work that job?
00:17:09.920 -->
00:17:12.319Probably a dozen years.
00:17:12.319 -->
00:17:20.000But then because of my interest, I just basically I decided I wanted to debug people and not computers.
00:17:20.559 -->
00:17:22.240To seem much more interesting to me.
00:17:22.240 -->
00:17:23.119Cool.
00:17:23.119 -->
00:17:25.279That's a cool way of thinking about it.
00:17:25.279 -->
00:17:27.279Can you paint me a picture of the ashram?
00:17:27.279 -->
00:17:28.240Where was it?
00:17:28.240 -->
00:17:30.000What how many people were there?
00:17:30.000 -->
00:17:31.759What was it like?
00:17:32.319 -->
00:17:36.160Well, this ashram, it's it's was in multiple locations.
00:17:36.160 -->
00:17:43.519So I lived a few different places in New Jersey and uh New York City.
00:17:43.519 -->
00:17:53.440And when all this was happening, when I was applying to medical school, I was in England just because that's where I found a community where I could also get school credits.
00:17:53.440 -->
00:17:58.559So I I lived in uh in a house in Leeds, England with a bunch of guys.
00:17:58.799 -->
00:18:01.039And uh it was a blissful life.
00:18:01.039 -->
00:18:02.880Blissful life sounds nice.
00:18:02.880 -->
00:18:10.240It was a Buddhist ashram, or uh I don't even I'm really revealing my ignorance now.
00:18:10.240 -->
00:18:14.799Like I don't even really know what an uh what it means, the word ashram.
00:18:14.799 -->
00:18:20.160I mean, and I've heard it a bunch, but what is an ashram?
00:18:20.160 -->
00:18:21.359And yeah.
00:18:21.920 -->
00:18:32.400My teacher's name is Premrawa, and he went by the title Maharaji back then in the 70s, 80s.
00:18:32.400 -->
00:18:35.599And I think ashram just translates to shelter.
00:18:35.599 -->
00:18:49.119And so it's it's a place where you don't have to worry about accomplishing your finances or building your life, and you can just focus on your inner world, and and it's just set up to be a place that's conducive to that.
00:18:49.119 -->
00:18:53.039So a lot of meditation and discourse and service.
00:18:53.680 -->
00:18:58.720And so then you wanted to debug people, and what did you do?
00:18:58.720 -->
00:19:01.119How did you set yourself up?
00:19:01.680 -->
00:19:07.359Well, so my interest was in cognitive therapy, and I just found that fascinating.
00:19:07.359 -->
00:19:17.759And and I guess you develop an intuition working with computers, like if something's not working right, like maybe it's this subroutine that's has an error in it.
00:19:17.759 -->
00:19:22.640And so it was interesting to see if that could apply to people.
00:19:22.640 -->
00:19:28.240So if a person is not functioning properly, what's wrong with their programming?
00:19:28.240 -->
00:19:55.680So that was initially my orientation as a therapist, but then a friend of mine gave me a rebirthing session, which is a breath work, that launched me into a profound non-ordinary state where I just experienced so much outside of the realm of logic and intellectualism that felt valid.
00:19:55.680 -->
00:20:00.880It felt more real, maybe even than all the stuff that I was figuring out in my head.
00:20:01.279 -->
00:20:04.000So tell me about that rebirthing session.
00:20:04.400 -->
00:20:09.279Well, I I got in touch with emotions, which were kind of a new thing to me.
00:20:09.279 -->
00:20:25.759I actually, my first session, I had an image of what I assume was the last time I had cried as a child, and I saw that I come to the conclusion that crying was pointless, and why bother having these feelings?
00:20:25.759 -->
00:20:35.920And um, and then the second session that I did of breath work basically cried through the whole thing, and that felt so good, you know.
00:20:35.920 -->
00:20:50.720It's it was just a whole new world to come out of, I guess, what we would call secondary process awareness into primary process of just not being with a bunch of words and thinking, but just feeling and being in the moment.
00:20:51.279 -->
00:20:52.559This is huge, yeah.
00:20:52.559 -->
00:21:04.000The difference between the frontal lobe thinking, intellectual parts and the body experiencing emotional parts.
00:21:04.000 -->
00:21:06.640How how old were you at this time?
00:21:06.640 -->
00:21:08.160Wow.
00:21:08.799 -->
00:21:14.480I would guess I went back to school when I was 35, so just probably late 30s.
00:21:15.039 -->
00:21:17.599And that was social work school at 35?
00:21:17.920 -->
00:21:18.319Yeah.
00:21:18.880 -->
00:21:21.279NYU where you are.
00:21:21.279 -->
00:21:22.400Cool.
00:21:22.400 -->
00:21:39.279So you were computer guy doing the cognitive stuff, and then uh somebody you knew said, let's do this breath rebirthing session, and they took you into a room and started breathing.
00:21:39.279 -->
00:21:41.759Like what what does this look like?
00:21:41.759 -->
00:21:43.279I've never experienced this yet.
00:21:43.279 -->
00:21:44.240I'm curious about this.
00:21:44.559 -->
00:21:45.119Oh, okay.
00:21:45.440 -->
00:21:56.160Well, these are all techniques for the protectors to let go, especially the intellectual ones, the thinking ones.
00:21:56.160 -->
00:21:59.599And there's many ways that human beings can do that.
00:21:59.599 -->
00:22:17.279But connecting your breath in a faster and deeper way and staying at staying with it for a while is really effective at just shifting into a more primary process way of being in the world.
00:22:17.279 -->
00:22:21.599What um so and I and then I eventually trained with Stan Groff.
00:22:21.599 -->
00:22:24.720He used the terms holotropic and hilotropic.
00:22:24.720 -->
00:22:36.640So holotropic is when we're in that place of no boundaries and transcendence, hilotropic, holos, holos is Greek for matter, tropane moving towards.
00:22:36.640 -->
00:22:47.920So hilotropic means moving, holos is wholeness, hilos is matter, so moving towards matter is the our normal way of being in the world and how we need to be in order to function on the planet, basically.
00:22:48.400 -->
00:23:12.799Stan Groff is amazing, and I got to meet him, and not meet him so much as just see him at the psychedelics conference in Denver a couple years ago, and I read his Way of the Psychonaut, part one and part two, and just the way he thinks about pre-birth memories and just our development.
00:23:12.799 -->
00:23:14.559He's so brilliant.
00:23:14.559 -->
00:23:26.079So I don't really know what my question is here, but getting back to what you had flagged, the working with protectors, getting them to relax.
00:23:26.079 -->
00:23:41.039I guess it makes sense that if you if you have certain kinds of breathing, you can kind of shut off the thinking cognitive critical parts enough to connect to the primary process.
00:23:41.039 -->
00:23:43.279How do you think about this?
00:23:43.279 -->
00:23:43.680Yeah.
00:23:44.319 -->
00:24:08.720I believe that the mechanism is as you are breathing faster and deeper for an extended period, you're blowing off carbon dioxide, which changes your blood pH, which changes how hemoglobin is bound, and you end up having a little bit less, well, not no, I mean how hemoglobin binds oxygens, and then you end up having a little less oxygen.
00:24:08.720 -->
00:24:13.119And I imagine that in your brain, and I imagine your brain is gonna triage.
00:24:13.119 -->
00:24:19.200Your brain's gonna go, well, we can't like sacrifice the brainstem and the deeper layers.
00:24:19.200 -->
00:24:21.440Like, we're gonna sacrifice the cortex.
00:24:21.440 -->
00:24:23.279We don't really need that to survive.
00:24:23.279 -->
00:24:30.400And so it just starts to go offline, and then the deeper levels of reality start to emerge.
00:24:30.799 -->
00:24:32.400I like that explanation.
00:24:32.400 -->
00:24:43.279For me, it was huge to read Bessel's Body Keeps the Score Book, because I had been trained in medical school and then cognitive.
00:24:43.279 -->
00:24:51.119There was sort of this battle between the cognitive behavioral people and the psychodynamic people, which were huge, are huge in New York.
00:24:51.119 -->
00:24:54.720And all of them are these talking-thinking approaches.
00:24:54.720 -->
00:25:00.319And then Bessel's book says, well, trauma's more in the feeling parts of the brain.
00:25:00.319 -->
00:25:04.240And so we need to find ways of working with the body.
00:25:04.240 -->
00:25:12.960And that's how I shift it towards learning EMDR and IFS and ketamine-assisted therapy.
00:25:13.359 -->
00:25:34.720Yeah, but when we talk about memory, we use that word like it means something that it doesn't, in that the memory, the our declarative memory or explicit memory, the memory in the cortex is a totally different thing than the memory in the amygdala, our implicit memory, our experiential emotional memory.
00:25:34.720 -->
00:25:41.519And I think first we got to understand that trauma has almost nothing or maybe nothing to do with explicit memory.
00:25:41.519 -->
00:25:43.359It's all about the implicit memory.
00:25:43.839 -->
00:25:51.279So you experienced this in the breathwork sessions, and then how does your story continue?
00:25:51.920 -->
00:25:59.759I guess I just straddle the worlds, which is maybe the message I or the advice I would hear from Stan.
00:25:59.759 -->
00:26:04.720Like the holotropic reality is real and hilotropic reality is real.
00:26:04.720 -->
00:26:10.000And if we're too far in one or the other, I mean if we're too far in holotropic, it's very hard to function.
00:26:10.000 -->
00:26:14.319And if we're too far dialotropic, we're not going to feel meaning.
00:26:14.319 -->
00:26:16.160You know, I know it's your topic here.
00:26:16.160 -->
00:26:18.799So like, what's the point of it all?
00:26:18.799 -->
00:26:30.960So I think we need to find that balance where we can both function but also feel something that's transcendent, feel something that is meaningful beyond just surviving.
00:26:30.960 -->
00:26:35.039And also to feel we're connected, you know, what that we're not.
00:26:35.039 -->
00:26:44.079I mean, in the highotropic world, I'm an individual unit that needs to take care of itself and it's alienating.
00:26:44.079 -->
00:26:49.759We need those transcendent experiences to feel that we're part of the whole thing.
00:26:50.400 -->
00:27:23.519Amazing balance that you're describing between the the ashram spiritual life and the computer programming, and then wanting to help people reprogram themselves, and then you're in this straddling world, post-social work, where I imagine you're starting off doing pretty conventional therapy, CBT, and then also and then adding in these other modalities that that you pick up.
00:27:23.519 -->
00:27:36.240Can you tell me that story a bit of of I guess in a hilotrophic way, what came next in in terms of sort of this tool set that you have?
00:27:36.799 -->
00:27:52.160My my biography is hazy here, but I think you know, obviously I I would read and learn things, but I did a big training in core energetics, which is a somatic psychotherapy that comes down through Wilhelm Reich.
00:27:52.160 -->
00:28:06.799And um all these things basically I could just feel their validity, I could feel they were working for me, I could feel things were shifting that I would not be able to shift just by thinking through it.
00:28:07.279 -->
00:28:11.599What does that work look like, the core energetics work?
00:28:12.319 -->
00:28:15.359Well, it's very much about working with the body.
00:28:15.359 -->
00:28:23.359Almost like not even separating the psychological work from the somatic work, that it's all expressing through the body.
00:28:23.359 -->
00:28:24.880It works with energy.
00:28:24.880 -->
00:28:28.240So we're wanting to open up energy blocks.
00:28:28.240 -->
00:28:41.279We're wanting the director of the program for most of the time I was there, I remember him saying, the purpose is to know what you feel, to put it all together and be present.
00:28:42.000 -->
00:28:51.759Can you give me an example of a session that like an early session that either somebody did for you or you did for somebody else?
00:28:51.759 -->
00:29:12.240Where I think people I don't know much about this, I read a little bit, but it's sort of focusing on like a muscle discomfort, and then it it uh develops into powerful emotional shifts and m and movements, but I've never seen it.
00:29:12.240 -->
00:29:18.319Can you think of an example that would be illustrative for people who are not familiar with this?
00:29:18.720 -->
00:29:29.920Well, I mean, I think you've seen how we'll invite people to express anger and with the cube and hitting the uh cube with the bat.
00:29:29.920 -->
00:29:30.880Yeah.
00:29:30.880 -->
00:29:40.720So you can talk to people about anger, and then they'll go, I understand, oh, I can feel some anger in there, I know what it is, or maybe they'll go, I don't feel it.
00:29:40.720 -->
00:29:52.000And but even if they don't feel it, if they're willing to start hitting this thing and emoting and making noise, they'll start to get in touch with their angry parts, really.
00:29:52.000 -->
00:30:00.400So we kind of use the body to bring out the feelings that if we just talked about it, someone might not ever get in touch with.
00:30:00.880 -->
00:30:07.200That anger is one of your interests and and areas of expertise.
00:30:07.200 -->
00:30:20.960And I remember one of the things you were saying or teaching was that the angry parts have this function of protecting ourselves or setting boundaries, and that that's actually really important.
00:30:20.960 -->
00:30:31.519And uh can you tell me how you how you came to appreciate anger and how you see anger as working in our system?
00:30:32.079 -->
00:30:36.160I guess I came to appreciate it by hitting that cube for five years.
00:30:36.160 -->
00:30:46.799And when I look at our culture, it seems there's a really apparent distortion about what anger is.
00:30:46.799 -->
00:30:48.880Like anger has a bad name.
00:30:48.880 -->
00:31:00.400And understandably so, because as we the more we try to suppress it, the more it pops out uncontrolled, or in FS we'd say not self-led.
00:31:00.400 -->
00:31:04.400So the more anger blends, in other words, takes over.
00:31:04.400 -->
00:31:20.799And if anyone saw that movie Inside Out, or maybe it was Inside Out too, I don't know, maybe both of them, you know, there's scenes where there's a control panel, and the angry part, like an anxious part is like, don't say this, and the angry part just pushes it out of the way and hits the button, and the person, so that's blending.
00:31:20.799 -->
00:31:29.359And so the more anger blends, the more it's destructive, it's rageful, and it gives anger a bad name, and then the more we try to suppress our anger.
00:31:29.359 -->
00:31:51.599And I I think we all live in this culture where we're afraid of anger, and it has pretty negative consequences, and this is a whole other thing, which I'll I'll let you either continue or not, but I would say that if I can't set a boundary with anger, then I'll resort to judgment.
00:31:51.599 -->
00:32:06.720In other words, if I can't say no to you and keep you at a safe distance just because I want that space, then my part will start to judge you and make you wrong, which will give me the feeling of separation.
00:32:06.720 -->
00:32:21.440And this notion that there's right and wrong and how we make other people wrong is what fuels the polarization that you have either within one person or in a couple or in a family or in our country right now.
00:32:21.759 -->
00:32:26.240Yeah, I'm associating to a lot of what you're saying, and and this is a nice example.
00:32:26.240 -->
00:32:58.799So I guess I'm thinking of my own life and I be married, and if I want to go on a retreat and learn something, and my partner says or someone doesn't want that to happen, I could either kind of swallow my anger and and become judgmental, or I could say, look, this is what I need, and I'm gonna stand up for myself.
00:32:58.799 -->
00:33:10.640And uh so is there a way to have a productive limit, is I guess what I I'm hearing you say.
00:33:10.640 -->
00:33:13.359Or how do you think of this about this?
00:33:13.839 -->
00:33:15.279So, two things.
00:33:15.279 -->
00:33:29.680If I can't just fight for what I want and set a boundary that says, I know that you don't want me to go, but this is important to me, and I'm gonna advocate for it, then I'm gonna make my partner wrong.
00:33:29.680 -->
00:33:33.680Like, what's wrong with you that you're trying to stop me from, you know, that's wrong.
00:33:33.759 -->
00:33:40.400You're but you're blocking my personal development and and that's shifting into a judgment right there.
00:33:40.720 -->
00:33:41.039Yeah.
00:33:41.039 -->
00:33:48.799And that judginess is what I find working with couples is is is the the toxic thing in a relationship.
00:33:48.799 -->
00:33:52.480That if I'm making the other person wrong, that hurts.
00:33:52.480 -->
00:33:56.000If I'm just angry, that's about me.
00:33:56.000 -->
00:33:56.400Right?
00:33:56.400 -->
00:33:57.680I'm not saying anything about you.
00:33:57.680 -->
00:34:04.240I'm just saying, no, I'm not willing to do what you want me to do here, and I'm pushing to do what I feel is right for me.
00:34:04.240 -->
00:34:05.839That's not saying anything about you.
00:34:05.839 -->
00:34:12.480But if I'm saying what's wrong with you for trying to stop my personal development, that is the toxicity, I think.
00:34:12.800 -->
00:34:15.039Yeah, I'm just taking a moment to take that in.
00:34:15.039 -->
00:34:18.880I think this is a huge deal, and it shows up over and over again.
00:34:19.199 -->
00:34:27.760And when people tell me I'm wrong, I'm not likely to then go, oh, thank you for letting me know how wrong I am.
00:34:27.760 -->
00:34:34.639I'm gonna just double down and be right, because that's the shame, exile, right?
00:34:34.639 -->
00:34:35.920Like that I'm wrong.
00:34:35.920 -->
00:34:58.159And if I can't feel that, which most of us have a hard time with, you know, this whole thing with SignalGate, I thought that was such a beautiful example of people who could not just go, sorry, I made a mistake there, and just came up with this outlound outlandish explanations and actually attacking someone else to try to distract from what they did wrong.
00:34:58.159 -->
00:35:02.159They couldn't just feel like, oh my god, I feel so shameful that I screwed up like that.
00:35:02.480 -->
00:35:24.079This was the story of the whatever the military people who were giving away secret information or sharing top secret stuff on Signal apps, and then uh I I didn't follow it closely, but someone accidentally invited a journalist of the Atlantic, and that's how this whole thing blew up.
00:35:24.159 -->
00:35:34.480And it was just interesting to watch their protectors jump into action because they could not feel the shame of having made a mistake.
00:35:35.679 -->
00:35:41.360So you figured all this out hitting a cube uh with a bat for five years.
00:35:41.360 -->
00:35:44.480How often were you hitting that that cube?
00:35:44.960 -->
00:35:45.519I don't know.
00:35:45.519 -->
00:35:52.159I guess I had my individual therapy, and that some people think pro energetics is like, oh yeah, you go hit stuff and that's it.
00:35:52.159 -->
00:35:53.840So so I don't want to give that impression.
00:35:53.840 -->
00:35:58.719It's like very deep and nuanced, and there's a lot to it.
00:35:58.719 -->
00:36:10.719But but you know, at times in my individual therapy, and then all the training programs, there would be groups, and that would tend to be something that would happen in a group because people have anger and it's useful to bring it out.
00:36:11.039 -->
00:36:13.920How did you then find IFS?
00:36:14.559 -->
00:36:39.119I saw Dick at uh Dick Schwartz, so he's the developer of the model at um uh psychotherapy networker conference, and I had been doing hypnotherapy and just finding myself talking to parts through that lens, especially like physical sensations in the body, like personifying them, and and it was interesting and seemed useful.
00:36:39.119 -->
00:36:49.039And I felt like I was just exploring the terrain, and I met this guy who just came out with a map of the whole thing and said, Yeah, I already been here, I figured it all out, here it is.
00:36:49.039 -->
00:36:54.559So um that got me motivated to pursue it more and as much as I did the the training.
00:36:55.039 -->
00:36:57.280Can you say a bit more about that?
00:36:57.280 -->
00:37:20.480The so hypnotherapy, you're having conversations with parts, and I guess you're using hypnosis to sort of turn off the thinky parts of the brain and get into the core feeling parts of it, and so you're shifting into more trance work, or what does hypnosis look like?
00:37:20.480 -->
00:37:23.840And then how does IFS give you a map?
00:37:24.320 -->
00:37:30.400What hypnosis looks like, my analytical parts think they have all the answers.
00:37:30.400 -->
00:37:41.599They think that they have a monopoly on truth, and they have a monopoly on figuring stuff out, they're good at figuring stuff out, but there's other truths that you don't figure out.
00:37:41.599 -->
00:37:57.440You just tune into or you know, or you feel, or so the in the sense that hypnosis gets you out of that thinking place, now you're open to other kinds of insights that aren't arrived at by analysis.
00:37:57.440 -->
00:38:04.639Uh, what's interesting is once I started doing IFS, I stopped doing hypnosis, but I did hypnotherapy.
00:38:04.639 -->
00:38:11.199So I find that people go into trance as soon as you ask them to talk to a part, they kind of go into that place.
00:38:11.199 -->
00:38:19.119And I really enjoy not having to get out my little tape recorder with tinkly music and have people walk down 10 stories of stairs or whatever.
00:38:19.119 -->
00:38:19.760Steps.
00:38:20.079 -->
00:38:20.400Yeah.
00:38:20.400 -->
00:38:32.239And so then IFS gives you a map because there are these different types of protective parts, the managers and the firefighters, and then there's exile.
00:38:32.239 -->
00:38:48.960So you kind of know who you're working with and how different parts relate to each other, and you have this self-quality behind all of that that that kind of sends healing energy, or or how do you think about this?
00:38:48.960 -->
00:39:07.679So your cat misses you, and this brings back a lot of memories because in our group, your cat really made some uh some appearances.
00:39:07.679 -->
00:39:08.559Yeah.
00:39:09.199 -->
00:39:15.440That's funny because it I usually do these things by Zoom, and Zoom has some kind of software that filters that out.
00:39:15.440 -->
00:39:16.639So nobody hears it.
00:39:16.639 -->
00:39:17.519So I didn't do it.
00:39:17.519 -->
00:39:20.960Yeah, well, I may put her outside because it's distracting.
00:39:20.960 -->
00:39:22.320She gets very loud.
00:39:22.639 -->
00:39:22.960Okay.
00:39:22.960 -->
00:39:25.760But uh for me it's nice to hear her.
00:39:25.760 -->
00:39:26.960Tell me her name again.
00:39:27.280 -->
00:39:28.239Black job.
00:39:28.480 -->
00:39:32.079Is that that's her legal name that you gave her?
00:39:32.480 -->
00:39:34.480Yeah, that's on her birth certificate.
00:39:34.800 -->
00:39:35.679Amazing.
00:39:35.679 -->
00:39:39.360So yeah, so now you have Yeah, I know where we were.
00:39:39.519 -->
00:39:42.320So insight one is that we have parts.
00:39:42.320 -->
00:39:45.760And that didn't originate that.
00:39:45.760 -->
00:39:58.719But since he was working in family systems, he was able to transport the techniques of working with the family and brought those techniques to working with the inner family.
00:39:58.719 -->
00:40:07.199And that's sort of, you know, my sense of sort of the confluence of where he was at in his life, where this model was able to be sourced.
00:40:07.599 -->
00:40:08.400Yeah, I agree.
00:40:08.400 -->
00:40:09.519That's a big deal.
00:40:09.519 -->
00:40:24.559That he's a systems thinker, and in families, you think about it's not the angry teenager that's the problem, or the alcoholic dad, it's sort of what's the system, and how do you work with the system?
00:40:24.559 -->
00:40:32.159The problem is sort of between and in the interactions, and and they're trained in that way of thinking.
00:40:32.159 -->
00:40:36.159And so then he really applied that to our inner system.
00:40:36.159 -->
00:40:40.880So I agree, that's an amazing, helpful move forward.
00:40:40.880 -->
00:40:53.440I don't know why he I feel like in New York y Columbia psychiatry circles, people don't really appreciate this model sufficiently yet.
00:40:53.440 -->
00:40:59.440I it's caught on, it's become huge in a lot of places, but there's also a lot of resistance to it.
00:40:59.440 -->
00:41:00.880I don't know what that's about.
00:41:00.880 -->
00:41:01.760I don't know.
00:41:01.920 -->
00:41:09.760I know sometimes people feel a little scared to give up the sense that I am I am me or something.
00:41:09.920 -->
00:41:12.800And to kind of one me, there's one mind.
00:41:13.119 -->
00:41:13.679Yeah.
00:41:14.079 -->
00:41:21.199But from computers and AI and getting back to sort of the be debugging, to me, it's kind of a eureka moment.
00:41:21.199 -->
00:41:29.360I feel like of course our mind is multiple little neural networks or little thinking machines in parallel.
00:41:29.360 -->
00:41:37.599That's much more powerful than any one clunky computing system could be.
00:41:37.599 -->
00:41:44.559And so now we have a map and a way to sort of find, well, where's the bug in the program?
00:41:44.559 -->
00:41:53.360And we can find that part or system of part or little network of parts and tweak and adjust.
00:41:53.760 -->
00:42:12.159Yeah, and in the end, you know, my sense is I'm doing cognitive therapy, but now I get to do it with the part that needs it, rather than just injecting this intervention into a whole room full of parts, and some of have nothing to do with this, and who will fight back.
00:42:12.159 -->
00:42:23.599And so once we isolate a part that we're focused on, the work does include an unburdening of beliefs, which is really what cognitive therapy is doing.
00:42:24.159 -->
00:42:29.039At what point did the group work and the ketamine come in?
00:42:29.039 -->
00:42:46.400So we've talked now about all these different tools you're learning, you're doing trainings, you're doing the the Rykien and the holotropic breath work, and alongside the CBT and and then hypnotherapy and and then IFS and then there's group work and ketamine.
00:42:46.559 -->
00:42:55.119Like, how does that all when you are training with Stan, people are going to be inviting you to do other things?
00:42:55.119 -->
00:43:03.119You know, just Stan developed holotropic breath work basically as a replacement for LSD when he can no longer use LSD.
00:43:03.119 -->
00:43:10.800And you know, Holt teaches that there's a bunch of ways for humans to access that holotropic state.
00:43:10.800 -->
00:43:18.960Temperature extremes like a sweat lodge and pain and fasting and sleep deprivation, sensory overload, sensory deprivation, on and on.
00:43:18.960 -->
00:43:32.079So these substances, to me, just fall in that category of ways to shift out of that primarily mental way of being in the world, that hilotropic way of being in the world.
00:43:32.079 -->
00:43:39.760So I had through the years, you know, experimented with various ways, uh, chemical ways to do that.
00:43:39.760 -->
00:43:48.320And when I read about, you know, I read um I'm blanking his name, but the guy who wrote the first book, uh, the Kennedy Papers, I guess it was called.
00:43:48.719 -->
00:43:52.000Oh, um Phil Wolfson.
00:43:52.320 -->
00:43:53.519Wolfson, yeah.
00:43:53.519 -->
00:43:58.320So I was like, wow, this this is legal, like you can actually do this with people.
00:43:58.320 -->
00:43:59.760So I was intrigued.
00:43:59.760 -->
00:44:01.440By the possibilities.
00:44:01.440 -->
00:44:02.400And then training.
00:44:04.079 -->
00:44:04.800I'm sorry?
00:44:04.800 -->
00:44:07.920You trained with him, or how did you do the tr training?
00:44:08.159 -->
00:44:10.320I didn't do any ketamine training.
00:44:10.320 -->
00:44:18.320I figured having done holotropic breath work so long, understanding that the maps training was all based on that.
00:44:18.320 -->
00:44:21.840And I sort of grandfathered myself in.
00:44:21.840 -->
00:44:38.719And that is actually the analogy I use for how to work with protectors.
00:44:38.719 -->
00:44:39.840But maybe we'll come back to that.
00:44:40.079 -->
00:44:50.000I was just thinking, as you were about to say that, yes, this you asked an interfering protector to give you some space.
00:44:50.639 -->
00:44:51.679Basically.
00:44:51.679 -->
00:44:53.679Well, actually, I didn't ask.
00:44:53.679 -->
00:44:58.159I did of the three ways to do that, I did one of them.
00:44:58.159 -->
00:45:00.079What are the three ways?
00:45:00.079 -->
00:45:11.119Well, if you want to move a cat out of a room, you can push the cat, you can entice the cat, invite the cat, you know, with a treat or something, or you can pick up the cat and move it.
00:45:11.119 -->
00:45:15.920And to me, these are the three ways to work with a defense, with protectors.
00:45:15.920 -->
00:45:18.480And um just to continue on this rift.
00:45:18.480 -->
00:45:25.280So the the first one is my sense of like beginning therapists who will just push.
00:45:25.280 -->
00:45:34.639Like, oh, maybe you should stop drinking, or you're not that bad of a person, you know, or something like that, just pushing back.
00:45:34.639 -->
00:45:42.000And then the second one of the modalities I'm familiar with, I would say IFS and somatic experiencing are representative.
00:45:42.000 -->
00:45:47.840So do not push on the defense, don't be forceful.
00:45:47.840 -->
00:45:52.239Work with the protectors until they're willing to give you access.
00:45:52.239 -->
00:45:54.239So it's very gentle.
00:45:54.239 -->
00:46:06.480And that has the benefit of, in other words, now that I just picked up my cat and moved her, next time I move towards her, she might run away because she's going to expect that again.
00:46:06.480 -->
00:46:11.599Being gentle keeps a good relationship with those protectors where they're going to trust you more.
00:46:11.599 -->
00:46:20.239But I find often it's not enough to get them to move and to give us access to exiles, to give us access to the trauma.
00:46:20.239 -->
00:46:36.000And so the third one, just picking up the cat and moving it, holotropic breath work, psychedelics, core energetics, I think these are examples of ways that we just say, listen, I'm going to just disable you for a while.
00:46:36.239 -->
00:46:38.079And we're going to see what happens.
00:46:38.079 -->
00:46:52.639And so you you like to combine that, or it makes sense to combine that with IFS, because then you have less backlash, or you're more get more, make sure you have full buy-in of the system or as much as possible.
00:46:52.639 -->
00:46:53.760Is that how you think of it?
00:46:53.760 -->
00:46:54.400Exactly.
00:46:54.559 -->
00:46:55.519As much as possible.
00:46:55.519 -->
00:47:01.599It's kind of like, listen, I'm sorry, you're not going to like this, but we're going to do it.
00:47:01.599 -->
00:47:08.000But I'm I want to hear about your fears about it first, and we can talk about it.
00:47:08.000 -->
00:47:18.639It's not, as long as we're going to disable that the ability of protectors to do their job, at least we should have compassion for them that we're doing that.
00:47:19.039 -->
00:47:19.519Yeah.
00:47:19.519 -->
00:47:24.559So tell me how you started doing the groups.
00:47:24.559 -->
00:47:26.559How many cycles now?
00:47:26.559 -->
00:47:32.960So I participated in I don't know which one it was, the 10th or something.
00:47:32.960 -->
00:47:45.039And people come, groups of eight-ish, and it's you and Amy, and and people get to know each other and form an intention.
00:47:45.039 -->
00:47:51.280And then there's sort of the group forms, and there's three different like when did you first come up with this model?
00:47:51.280 -->
00:47:53.039And what's the story of the model?
00:47:53.039 -->
00:47:54.719How is it, how did it start?
00:47:54.719 -->
00:47:56.000How has it evolved?
00:47:56.320 -->
00:47:56.639Yeah.
00:47:56.639 -->
00:48:06.800So I I think I might have been saying when my cat interrupted that in my the very beginning of my first session, I just thought, this feels like holotropic breath work.
00:48:06.800 -->
00:48:08.159First time I take enemy.
00:48:08.159 -->
00:48:20.880And why are we, why are we all like why does everyone have a paid, trained facilitator to hand us a water bottle and write down the stupid stuff we say?
00:48:20.880 -->
00:48:22.239I shouldn't say it's stupid stuff.
00:48:22.239 -->
00:48:23.760Sometimes it could be insightful.
00:48:23.760 -->
00:48:37.760Because in holotropic breathwork, you have naive, you know, untrained people who do a beautiful job of that, of holding space, of being present, of meeting someone's physical needs in their session.
00:48:37.760 -->
00:48:45.519So it just seemed obvious like, why not just do holotropic breath work workshops, substitute the ketamine for the breathing?
00:48:45.679 -->
00:48:46.480So that's where you're.
00:48:46.480 -->
00:48:52.159You had already been lots of training in the holotropic, and then you just substituted the ketamine for the breathing.
00:48:52.480 -->
00:48:52.719Yeah.
00:48:52.719 -->
00:49:02.639Actually, I find ketamine easier, less challenging than breath work for most people, because it's such a calming medicine in and of itself.
00:49:02.639 -->
00:49:13.519And we did find we did a couple of cohorts where we followed the model where you would each day there'd be two sessions and everyone would have a sitter.
00:49:13.519 -->
00:49:26.320And we just found very quickly that in breath work, people get very active sometimes and emote and need need someone to protect their space or hand them things because they're crying and growing up.
00:49:26.320 -->
00:49:35.519And and kind of mean mostly people just are lying there, and the sitters had virtually nothing to do, and we realized that that was extraneous and not necessary.
00:49:35.519 -->
00:49:41.039So we just um we just went to doing how you experience it with one session in the day.
00:49:41.440 -->
00:49:57.760Yeah, so you really have this beautiful space, the this built-out basement in your house with a porch that wraps around and a lot of windows, and I everybody has their mat, there's sort of a circle.
00:49:57.760 -->
00:50:15.599People talk and get to know each other a bit, and then the group forms, and then there's music and eye shades, and yeah, I felt like there's a lot of connection that happens, there's a lot of movement that happens.
00:50:15.599 -->
00:50:40.880For somebody who's never been in this kind of an experience, can you maybe give an example of like the type of person who would come in, what kind of motivation or trouble they they would bring, and and how that might be helped in this kind of a situation, uh this kind of a group treatment?
00:50:41.519 -->
00:50:44.960Yeah, I mean, it raises the question of what are we doing?
00:50:44.960 -->
00:50:53.679Is it is it ketamine therapy that we happen to do in a group, or is it group therapy sort of lubricated by ketamine?
00:50:53.679 -->
00:50:57.119And I think it's all the above.
00:50:57.119 -->
00:50:57.519Yeah.
00:50:57.519 -->
00:51:23.760Um the group aspect, I mean, as you're talking about, I'm remembering how it felt to be in the core energetics training and to be part of a class, and I was with these same people for four years, and what came out of that, and how that really is more than anything got me in touch with my defenses, right, and my protectors more than any kind of individual session would do.
00:51:23.760 -->
00:51:31.840But also many of our wounds are with people, and many of our burdens have to do with relationships.
00:51:31.840 -->
00:51:42.480And so to have people what we found is that the people who are most hesitant to work in a group were the ones at the end who said I got more about the from the group than I did from the medicine.
00:51:42.480 -->
00:51:43.519So just the opposite.
00:51:44.159 -->
00:52:03.280There's people who, for example, might say, I I don't deserve to take up space, my pro my problem isn't important, I should can't or shouldn't share that, and then they share it, and people are very happy that they share, and and it ends up being a big experience, for example.
00:52:03.679 -->
00:52:05.360That's a great example, yeah.
00:52:05.360 -->
00:52:18.239And because if you're in one-on-one therapy and you say something like that, and then your therapist goes, No, I want to hear what you have to say, you're important, or whatever, their parts are gonna go, I'm paying you to be like that.
00:52:18.239 -->
00:52:20.239So that doesn't count.
00:52:20.239 -->
00:52:35.679But to just have random people be kind and mirror back good qualities is often so important for people to shift their sense of who they are and then how they conduct their future relationships.
00:52:36.159 -->
00:52:39.760Do you get a lot of follow-up after people do the group?
00:52:39.760 -->
00:52:40.719Do you stay connected?
00:52:40.719 -->
00:52:50.239I guess some of them are your clients, so you get to hear how the process impacts their trajectory and their healing.
00:52:50.719 -->
00:52:51.599It's a mixture.
00:52:51.599 -->
00:52:58.000Yeah, there's some people I never see again, some people I'm still in touch with who've done it years ago.
00:52:58.000 -->
00:53:19.920But how do you know you can never say it's very hard to attribute someone's shift in life to a particular intervention, but the self-reporting is generally positive that it that one, whether it was a four-week series that we'll do or a one-week intensive, that significantly moves somebody from one place to another place.
00:53:19.920 -->
00:53:35.119And of course, we do you notice we were bothering you to fill out those scales, so we're we're actually looking at quantitative data to see uh reduction in anxiety and depression and stress and also increase in self-leadership scores.
00:53:35.599 -->
00:53:41.519Are you looking to publish a paper on the data that you're collecting at some point?
00:53:42.000 -->
00:53:46.079A couple of people have taken that data and published something.
00:53:46.079 -->
00:53:49.920I'm too lazy to do all that work.
00:53:49.920 -->
00:53:53.599So I barely can make myself continue to compile the data.
00:53:54.159 -->
00:53:57.039Um shifting towards meaning.
00:53:57.039 -->
00:54:13.280I started this podcast feeling like I want more meaning, or I feel like I went into mental health thinking that by talking to people in their moment of crisis, hearing their innermost thoughts, I would learn something about how to create meaning for myself.
00:54:13.280 -->
00:54:27.679And so I assume that that everybody went into mental health, kind of wanting to understand meaning, which is partially true, not necessarily fully true.
00:54:27.679 -->
00:54:33.440I think there's lots of ways to um to enter our field.
00:54:33.440 -->
00:54:48.559But I'm curious about sort of what's the difference between a symptom that's more we need to treat, or just sort of an internal sign that we're depressed or anxious because there's something in our life that we need to change.
00:54:48.559 -->
00:54:54.960Yeah, I'm curious how you think about meaning in mental health.
00:54:54.960 -->
00:55:06.239Any way you want to take that, I'm not phrasing this as a real question, but maybe just riff on meaning and your take on meaning any way you want to go with that.
00:55:06.239 -->
00:55:07.280Sure.
00:55:07.519 -->
00:55:19.119Well, first, what you're saying about symptoms, I mean, that's the wonderful messiness of this field, say compared to computer science, that things aren't just one thing, right?
00:55:19.119 -->
00:55:23.199I've given up on is this symptom this or that?
00:55:23.199 -->
00:55:25.280Is it organic or is it psychological?
00:55:25.280 -->
00:55:27.199It's just it's everything.
00:55:27.199 -->
00:55:31.599And the question is, where might I want to intervene?
00:55:31.599 -->
00:55:43.199And when people have a sense of lack of meaning, you know, that's what I was saying about the need for the holotropic, have one foot in the holotropic world.
00:55:43.199 -->
00:55:49.119Like we need meaning is not worked out in a logical way.
00:55:49.119 -->
00:55:55.920And whereas without meaning, we can totally function, but why would we function?
00:55:55.920 -->
00:55:57.199What's the point of it all?
00:55:58.000 -->
00:56:02.159Yeah, and for me, meaning means sort of connectedness.
00:56:02.159 -->
00:56:09.599How connected am I to everybody, everything, and do I have an impact?
00:56:09.599 -->
00:56:15.599The opposite of meaning is sort of randomness, disconnected, there's no impact.
00:56:15.599 -->
00:56:26.960And so just feeling like I fit somewhere and have some kind of a purpose is kind of where I'm at this point in terms of meaning.
00:56:27.440 -->
00:56:29.360Yeah, which makes sense.
00:56:29.360 -->
00:56:43.920And you see in this culture, you know, which which a country that was founded on the ideal of individualism and the rights of the citizen above the needs of the populace, I guess.
00:56:43.920 -->
00:56:49.360And it's just people are devolving into more and more meaninglessness, right?
00:56:49.360 -->
00:56:54.400And the more we fill our own individual needs, but we don't care about others.
00:56:54.400 -->
00:57:04.320I agree with you that that feeling my connection with others and valuing their well-being and caring is a huge source of meaning.
00:57:04.719 -->
00:57:13.360So I'm just gonna ask you some rapid fire questions now, so starting with according to so this is sentence completion.
00:57:13.360 -->
00:57:29.039According to me, Ted Riskin, the meaning of life is whatever you want it to be, whatever you make up, whatever you're willing to take responsibility for declaring for yourself and living into.
00:57:29.599 -->
00:57:31.280Maybe I should let me credit.
00:57:31.280 -->
00:57:40.079So I I you know, um, Werner Earhart, and in the 70s it was called Est, and in the 80s, I think it was the Forum, and then there's like landmark education.
00:57:40.079 -->
00:57:42.159But No, I know nothing about this.
00:57:42.159 -->
00:57:49.039So this course called the Forum, I believe their stage intention that you're supposed to get it.
00:57:49.039 -->
00:57:58.320But what you're supposed to get is that everything is empty and meaningless, including the fact that everything is empty and meaningless.
00:57:58.320 -->
00:58:02.719So when people go halfway and they go, everything is empty and meaningless.
00:58:02.719 -->
00:58:06.880Oh my god, I should just probably kill myself, they're halfway there.
00:58:06.880 -->
00:58:11.199You gotta continue and go, well, that doesn't mean anything either.
00:58:11.199 -->
00:58:25.360And when you can do that, there's a certain freedom, and you've created a blank slate, you've cleared your canvas of all the meaning that was fed to you, and then you have the potential for creating your meaning.
00:58:25.360 -->
00:58:27.440So that's how I think it works.
00:58:27.440 -->
00:58:30.800I think there's no meaning out there, you can't find meaning.
00:58:30.800 -->
00:58:31.679Where do you look?
00:58:31.679 -->
00:58:34.719There's there's nothing there, it's just something we generate.
00:58:34.719 -->
00:58:41.760And people are attached to the what you could see in these workshops like the forum, people are attached to their meaning.
00:58:41.760 -->
00:58:55.679And if they'd be like, Well, my dad killed himself when I was six, and you can't tell me that doesn't have meaning, and then the person leading the seminar would have a conversation with them and kind of destroy their their logic about that.
00:58:55.679 -->
00:59:07.119And basically, if people were getting it, they would admit in the end, like, yep, there's no meaning out there, and then that from there is where we can create our meaning in life.
00:59:07.519 -->
00:59:14.000It's a yin-yin, or the sort of almost like a death and a birth.
00:59:14.000 -->
00:59:14.880I don't know.
00:59:14.880 -->
00:59:21.199The so it's about creating meaning and finding some freedom.
00:59:21.199 -->
00:59:28.320Yeah, I feel like there's like a deep drive in me and most people towards meaning.
00:59:28.320 -->
00:59:30.800And yet it's it's tricky, it's confusing.
00:59:30.800 -->
00:59:31.840And it's not.
00:59:31.840 -->
00:59:36.639Uh you could just let go of the question and and and feel it, and and you're all set.
00:59:37.039 -->
00:59:53.920Well, but I think we need to commit to generating that meaning and maybe even every day ask ourselves Am I living a life in alignment with the meaning that I've created, you know, with the purpose that I've decided is my purpose.
00:59:54.079 -->
00:59:55.599I think it's hugely important.
00:59:55.599 -->
00:59:57.119Next question.
00:59:57.119 -->
01:00:01.599The most meaningful thing that I did yesterday was got my tire fixed.
01:00:01.599 -->
01:00:03.920And that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
01:00:03.920 -->
01:00:04.960Excellent.
01:00:04.960 -->
01:00:07.119Well uh why is that meaningful?
01:00:07.360 -->
01:00:21.679Because now you can all I guess there's because a part of me would be anxious to not have a functioning car or to have this this thing that needs to happen that's undone.
01:00:21.679 -->
01:00:25.599And that was my gift to this part.
01:00:25.599 -->
01:00:30.239Nice that was important to this part, and this part got its way yesterday.
01:00:30.639 -->
01:00:31.599I get that.
01:00:31.599 -->
01:00:41.840If I come to you and say, Ted, I um I don't feel like my life has meaning, I don't matter, can you help me?
01:00:41.840 -->
01:00:44.639What's your next step?
01:00:44.639 -->
01:00:46.159Wow.
01:00:46.480 -->
01:00:48.079That's such an interesting question.
01:00:48.079 -->
01:00:59.599Like, what occurs to me is maybe what's happening is there's other parts that are holding burdens that are taking up the space, taking up all the airtime.
01:00:59.599 -->
01:01:08.239And if those parts could be helped unburdened, perhaps the ability to create meaning would just happen.
01:01:08.239 -->
01:01:13.119Like maybe that's something that self can just do if parts are unblending.
01:01:13.119 -->
01:01:28.639So I suppose I would have the conversation, but I would also hope or or think that working on burden parts would help that person eventually create more meaning in their life.
01:01:28.639 -->
01:01:29.440Nice.
01:01:29.599 -->
01:01:36.239So meaning emerges from unburdening maybe burden parts.
01:01:36.639 -->
01:01:48.880I think if my parts are at a little bit of a distance from me and I'm resting in self-energy, I'm naturally gonna go, look, what do we want to do?
01:01:48.880 -->
01:01:51.199Like what do let's take advantage of this life?
01:01:51.199 -->
01:01:56.320And I think naturally a person would generate a meaning for their life.
01:01:56.639 -->
01:01:57.599I like it.
01:01:57.599 -->
01:02:12.880The most meaningful work of art that I've seen in the last week could be music or TV or or drawing or anything sort of art related or adjacent.
01:02:12.880 -->
01:02:14.719Is there anything that comes to mind?
01:02:14.719 -->
01:02:15.920Two things.
01:02:16.159 -->
01:02:21.280So one is I was just in Oslo and saw Munch's The Scream.
01:02:21.280 -->
01:02:22.079Oh wow.
01:02:22.079 -->
01:02:24.239Which there were there are three versions of that.
01:02:24.239 -->
01:02:25.920I think I I got to see two of them.
01:02:25.920 -->
01:02:27.360It was a little crowded.
01:02:27.360 -->
01:02:28.880So that just pops up.
01:02:28.880 -->
01:02:29.679I don't know why.
01:02:29.679 -->
01:02:38.559Maybe somehow he hid an archetypal expression that we all have and somehow got it on paper in a way that we could all find out.
01:02:38.800 -->
01:02:39.840Probably, yes.
01:02:40.159 -->
01:02:47.039But the other thing that popped in, because this what we were just talking about meaning, did you watch The White Lotus?
01:02:47.519 -->
01:02:49.920I've seen the first two seasons, not the third season.
01:02:50.159 -->
01:02:50.320Okay.
01:02:50.320 -->
01:02:55.679And the third one, it's just such a good example of somebody whose meaning was handed to him.
01:02:55.679 -->
01:02:58.239He yeah, this guy Rick.
01:02:58.239 -->
01:03:08.480So I think it's such a good example of the cost of not being able to create your own meaning and instead just falling a victim to a meaning that was handed to you.
01:03:08.880 -->
01:03:10.480I need to watch it now.
01:03:10.480 -->
01:03:13.679So thank you so much.
01:03:13.679 -->
01:03:19.920Anything that we didn't cover that would be helpful today before we finish?
01:03:20.480 -->
01:03:29.440What's coming to me is is that we as humans have an ability to detect what resonates with us.
01:03:29.440 -->
01:03:43.360And if people are wondering, you know, should I do IFS or should I like go expose yourself to things and listen to parts of you that say this resonates with me or this doesn't.
01:03:43.360 -->
01:03:48.400Um, as you're asking me all the modalities that I've learned, it's always worked that way.
01:03:48.400 -->
01:04:02.000Like I've just went towards things that I might not have had an intellectual justification for it, but something in me said yes, and I was able to trust that and have no regrets for any of those decisions.
01:04:02.480 -->
01:04:04.880Follow your curiosity, explore.
01:04:04.880 -->
01:04:10.719If I give you like a this is the Tim Ferris billboard question.
01:04:10.719 -->
01:04:20.559If you uh want if you have opportunity to get some big message out there, you have sort of a billboard to the world, you can get something out there.
01:04:20.559 -->
01:04:24.559Is there something that you would a message you would put on that billboard?
01:04:25.039 -->
01:04:31.840I guess it's if we could support each other, there's enough for everybody.
01:04:31.840 -->
01:04:44.719And let's depolarize, let's do that work, let's stop seeing each other as being wrong, or the one that needs to be vanquished and start with little things.
01:04:44.719 -->
01:04:55.760And like you're saying, the meaning comes from our connectedness, and the ability to help somebody is gonna give much more satisfaction than one more yacht.
01:04:56.400 -->
01:04:57.760Yeah, I love that.
01:04:57.760 -->
01:05:06.400And there's so many troubles that come now from our disconnectedness and everybody being in their little group.
01:05:06.400 -->
01:05:28.320And part of this project for me is very much exploring different healing groups, entering them, talking to people I meet, doing audio diaries, and meeting, you know, that's brought me to you, and I got to do this group experience with you, which which was amazing.
01:05:28.320 -->
01:05:32.800And uh yeah, I'm I'm still in it.
01:05:32.800 -->
01:05:48.000I I'm having figured out the sort of that I feel like you radiate sort of a peacefulness and balance that I'm not yet feeling right now, but uh we'll uh uh we're sort of working my way there.
01:05:48.320 -->
01:05:48.800Thank you.
01:05:48.800 -->
01:05:49.679That's nice.
01:05:49.679 -->
01:05:51.840Can I give a plug real quick?
01:05:51.840 -->
01:05:52.880Please, yes.
01:05:52.880 -->
01:05:57.679What you just said, it's uh group cap, G R O U P K A P dot com.
01:05:57.679 -->
01:06:02.960And uh we have cohorts this fall and We're very bad at promotion.
01:06:02.960 -->
01:06:08.000And so we we are always welcoming people who want to come work with us.
01:06:08.400 -->
01:06:12.559So we'll link to that in our website and show notes.
01:06:12.559 -->
01:06:18.000And that's the main I guess there's tedrisken.com or something, or but there's group cap.
01:06:18.000 -->
01:06:24.000Where should people go to find out what you're doing and follow your developments?
01:06:24.559 -->
01:06:25.599GroupKAP.
01:06:25.599 -->
01:06:29.920And the other thing that I'm really into is teaching the IFS model.
01:06:29.920 -->
01:06:33.840And the website for that is IFS Essentials.
01:06:33.840 -->
01:06:40.400And so my colleagues and I train practitioners in how to bring IFS to clients.
01:06:40.400 -->
01:06:48.880And it could be any therapists, coaches, psychedelic guides, clergy, all kinds of people who actually want to learn the techniques of the model.
01:06:48.880 -->
01:06:55.039So that's that's probably the most fun thing I do is bring that work to people so they can bring it to their people.
01:06:55.440 -->
01:06:55.760Great.
01:06:55.760 -->
01:06:57.119Well thank you.
01:06:57.119 -->
01:07:02.079It's so nice talking with you, connecting with you again, and I look forward to keeping in touch.
01:07:02.400 -->
01:07:03.280Me too, Dirk.
01:07:03.280 -->
01:07:04.000Thanks very much.
01:07:04.000 -->
01:07:06.960This was uh this is a really fun conversation.
01:07:08.400 -->
01:07:09.039Alright.
01:07:09.039 -->
01:07:10.559Thank you for listening.
01:07:10.559 -->
01:07:13.039I really enjoyed that conversation.
01:07:13.039 -->
01:07:14.159I learned a ton.
01:07:14.159 -->
01:07:15.920I hope you enjoyed this also.
01:07:15.920 -->
01:07:24.239If you want to hear more about what's going on with Ted, check out groupcap.com or tedrisken.com.
01:07:24.239 -->
01:07:30.800If you're curious about my audio diary experience, that's gonna be the next episode.
01:07:30.800 -->
01:07:45.039After that, I will present another group IFS Therapy Experience in Asheville, North Carolina with Chris Burris, who created the Healing Circles model of Internal Family Systems Group Therapy.
01:07:45.039 -->
01:07:47.119So that's gonna be exciting as well.
01:07:47.119 -->
01:07:48.480Stay tuned.
01:07:48.480 -->
01:07:50.639Lots of interesting stuff coming up.
01:07:50.639 -->
01:07:55.039Until next time, I hope you have a meaningful and meaningful month.
01:07:55.039 -->
01:07:59.280And as always, if you figure out the meaning of life, let me know.
