Michael Jones: Welcome to the Developing Experts Podcast, a show to help recruiters at every stage of their career to sharpen their skills, think more commercially, and ultimately become more effective and more credible. This podcast is all about real conversations with experienced recruiters, agency leaders, and high performers from all across the industry, unpacking what actually drives long-term success in recruitment. And I'm your host, Michael Jones, recruitment trainer. On today's Developing Experts Podcast, I'm sitting down and talking to Thomas O'Connor from HSS Solutions in Subiaco, Western Australia. he is also the next gen rep for the RCSA, and he's joining me today to talk about his journey in recruitment and what he's learnt from getting involved with the RCSA. So, Thomas, thank you so much for joining me today. My
Thomas O'Connor: Thanks for having me, MJ.
Michael Jones: pleasure. Great to chat to you and and find out more about yourself. Thomas, let's let's start off the podcast today by getting to know you a little bit more. I'd love to hear about your role, who you work for and what you recruit for.
Thomas O'Connor: So my role is team lead at HSS Recruitment. We're a boutique mid-sized recruitment agency that focuses on supplying to the mining and civil construction areas in Western Australia. So the core of our business would be production machinery operators, maintenance, trade qualified personnel, as well as the white collar management roles in the mining and civil industry.
Michael Jones: Fantastic. And Thomas, how long have you worked in recruitment for?
Thomas O'Connor: I've been in recruitment for closing on two and a half years now. So not too
Michael Jones: Excellent.
Thomas O'Connor: long, a lot to learn.
Michael Jones: Okay. And and tell us about your background before joining recruitment.
Thomas O'Connor: So I grew up in Tasmania. there wasn't much opportunity there. So I ended up joining the military. joined the Royal Australian Navy as a marine technician. So I was there for five years and when I left I I had a trade certificate as a mechanical fitter, which I did for a period of time in the mining industry, but I hated it. I I never enjoyed it. And and the opportunity arose to get into recruitment, so I grabbed it with two hands.
Michael Jones: Okay. What what didn't you enjoy about your job before?
Thomas O'Connor: I joined the military more so just just to actually join the military, not necessarily for the trade that I got. I I was never interested in mechanics. It was it was something that didn't come naturally to me. And although I had a trade certificate and and I was qualified, I didn't progress, I didn't enjoy it. I worked to live, not not the other way around, not live to work, which I feel like I do a bit of now.
Michael Jones: I see. Okay. And why did you decide to start a career in recruitment?
Thomas O'Connor: So it was opportunity more than anything, which I feel like is the tail for a lot of recruiters. I I came for an interview with HSS recruitment. I was going to go back into the fly and fly out lifestyle and something clicked in my interview and and s I just said to look, I hate it. I hate being a mechanical fitter. I feel like my skills are, you know, building relationships, being personable, having conversations and and solving problems.
Michael Jones: And so it was you interviewing with HSS, your current employer, interacting with that recruiter and and and something sparked in you. So it wasn't
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: necessarily that they said, Hey Thomas, we think you'd be a good recruiter. You you you you thought of it through the interaction with that person?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, I'd I'd been out of fitting for a little while and I think something in me it was like a last resort to go back fitting and I just I decided at that point in time, I don't know what it was, to just be completely honest, transparent, and I didn't necessarily think that they'd have a recruiting role within the company for me, but they might have some other sales based position that they could place me in and that's just the way it worked out.
Michael Jones: There you go. And I love the fact that your employer saw potential in you and gave you an opportunity to start a recruitment career because, you know, as we know very often, agencies are looking for experience. which is always that hard thing of how do I get into recruitment if nobody's gonna give me experience? But agents just gave you that chance and and and as you say. two, two and a half years later, you y you're still here doing a great job.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. There's there's one thing about if in school I'd have known that I could have made a career out of speaking to people, forming relationships. In recruitment we are solving problems, but I don't necessarily see it as that. I I feel like from having conversations and ultimately a pain point will come out with my client and then and then just through through working together you can solve it.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: yeah, I'd I wouldn't have maths and science is overrated.
Michael Jones: Well, this is the thing, isn't it? a lot of people don't know about recruitment. They don't understand what the job's all about. It's it's not seen as an aspirational career that many people specifically choose. Like a lot of people say they fall into recruitment. I didn't. I I specifically wanted to get into recruitment, but I saw it as a stepping stone towards something else. But obviously 20 years later I'm still in it. But yeah, it's an interesting point. Maybe we as an industry need to think about what can we do to make more people aware of how great a job and how great a career this could be. Maybe we'd get more people wanting to come and work f with us.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And through since I've been in recruitment and I've I've got a lot of friends in different industries and and that are still on the tools. And they are all interested. They all say, How do I get into recruitment? Like why don't how can I do what you do? So the I think the interest is there. It's just opening the door and and giving opportunity that
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: we need to get better at.
Michael Jones: Well, thank goodness HSS saw that potential and gave you that start. How how did you find you know, starting a career in recruitment? Because I imagine it was very different to what you'd done previously.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. So probably political correctness had to come into play a lot more when speaking on the phone to in comparison to being a a blue collar fitter.
Michael Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah. and then the conversation side of things I was good at. I've always had those soft skills of of forming relationships and speaking to people, but the the computer, the admin and the mobilization side of things is what I struggled most with the recruitment and probably still do To this day, but I have gotten better, but I think it's still got a long way to go.
Michael Jones: Well, you're not alone there, Thomas. I think most recruiters struggle with the admin, the paperwork, the compliance. It's it's not the sexy part of the job, but obviously it's really, really important. but yeah, you make a really interesting point. You know, transitioning off the tools into an office environment, it's such a different thing, isn't it? And the way you talk to people and the way you write an email, it's it's you've got to be much more careful, like you said.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, phone etiquette, emails, even the conversations, as you can imagine, on a mind site that that you speak about with your colleagues at in comparison to office based conversations are quite different.
Michael Jones: Yes. I mean you're still talking to the same types of people, but it's a different interaction and a different relationship. So you have to change everything.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, definitely. I think one one of my strong points with recruitment that I lean on quite a bit is that blue-collar approach. So so you you say change everything. I think having that as the core and just refining it a little bit and being able to have those blue-collar conversations with my clients, with my candidates really helps.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: but yeah, you just gotta scale it back a little bit to what it was like on site.
Michael Jones: Just slightly, just slightly. So communication and and tailoring your approach was was something you had to get used to. W what else was it like learning how to become a recruiter? Because what I always say to people is it's such a steep learning curve. Did you find that?
Thomas O'Connor: I did. I had a really good team around me that supported me. one of my colleagues who's been in recruitment for six or seven years j and has really refined the admin and and etiquette. Phone etiquette sort of supported me a lot throughout that period. So I felt really like engaged there and and looked after. They knew what my background was and and that there were going to be things that I I needed to work on, so they were pretty patient with me.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: but it was yeah, it was difficult ha in different aspects obviously to to the physical work that you're doing on mine site. So I'd come home, I'd be mentally I I don't know if I'd be mentally exhausted, but you know, fatigued but in a different way to you would be being on on your feet and working with your hands every day.
Michael Jones: Yeah. mentally exhausted rather than physically exhausted. It but i i it it is a very different experience. how was it coming off the tools and and working on site to then be recruiting those people and and finding them jobs and, you know, providing personnel for the projects that you were previously involved in? How how did all that go?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so that that I think came naturally because the pain points that the candidates would have I'd been through before. I'd been through slow mobilisations, I'd been through projects delays, what in what candidates are looking for in camp conditions, necessarily on mine sites, what what the strengths, pros and cons are from each side. So I could relate to them in that and I think that made them a lot a lot more comfortable with having me doing the recruiting for them. So That side of things, yeah, I picked up pretty quickly.
Michael Jones: Yeah. You knew the challenges, you knew the environment, you knew the roles. So you you having that knowledge must have made your job a lot easier. Was you know, is there ever ever any temptation when you get a new job or there's a new project you're working on and think, gosh, I missed that. Like that would have been a really good role for me or or is it no, definitely not?
Thomas O'Connor: Definitely not. I do I do a fair few site visits. I've just done a site visit earlier this week to my clients to sit down, speak to our employees and get a better understanding of what the site's like. I love that. I love going there. You know, getting in that camp environment again, getting my crib. And then I also love leaving and coming back.
Michael Jones: Very much. Yeah, I I I hear you. So in in terms of you know what you enjoy about being in recruitment, you've mentioned getting out to site. W is that the thing you enjoy the most, would you say?
Thomas O'Connor: I just building relationships, just speaking to people. I love I love that. I love being able to do speak to you here today as a part of work. In when I was on the tools in the mining environment, you turned up to work, you did your job and you left and you and you were pretty well supervised the whole time. I love the freedom that I get in recruitment to Go sit down, have a coffee with somebody, go drive out to see a client and just have a conversation. I'm not even selling at that point. I'm not trying to pitch to them recruitment. We're just building a relationship. And ultimately from that three, four, five meetings down the track, something will arise where where they do need my support and they'll come to me. I love I love that relationship building aspect of it.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Yeah. I think most people get into recruitment because we like working with people, we enjoy helping others, we get a real sense of satisfaction through the relationships we build and the impact that we make. you're very good at relating to people and building relationships and that's what recruitment's all about, isn't it?
Thomas O'Connor: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's it at its core. And then on on the flip side of that negative side of recruitment that being in the military and the mining industry taught me was resilience. And I think that is for for new people to recruitment that might not have worked in the industry or had, you know, younger people that haven't had as much life experience, I think that's a real sticking point that that might turn them away from the industry.
Michael Jones: 'Cause it's hard work, isn't it? And there are setbacks and frustrations and disappointments that you have to deal with.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. There's lulls lulls in, you know, the job orders coming in, there's speaking to somebody multiple times, you've done absolutely everything right and and then the person withdraws from the role or or ghosts you, which I think as a recruiter everybody's experience more than what they'd like to. And it does hurt, but you've just got to put it into context that it's a part of the job and and you didn't necessarily do anything wrong, potentially in that case and and just get on with it.
Michael Jones: Yeah, bounce back up, dust yourself off, keep on going. A hundred percent.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: So I'm a little bit late to say this, but congratulations on being a finalist in the recent RCSA Industry Awards. You were recognized as a finalist for the Rising Star category, is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: That's right, and thank you very much. Yeah, it was an honour to be recognised as a finalist and came as a bit of a shot, if I'm honest.
Michael Jones: Thick. And it was your first time being nominated, I understand, is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: It was, yeah, so I didn't understand the process too much. the team around HSS supported me through the application and and compiling all the data and sending it through and obviously they did a good job with that as well.
Michael Jones: Well, you know, someone who is involved in the industry awards as a judge, I can say I can tell you that the the the level of entries is very, very high. The competition is very tough, and to be a finalist on your first attempt is is an incredible achievement and very well deserved. But Thomas w tell me what what makes you a rising star? And don't be humble.
Thomas O'Connor: I just think I because I've come into recruitment later in life, I've joined the RCSA council, the Next Ten Council and and the West Australian Council and I'm I'm a naturally competitive guy. I played sport all my life and I want to catch up and propel myself into the industry as much as I can. So I've surrounded myself with with people who have been in the industry for a long time. I put in every day. I'm transparent and I I just work on relationships with both candidate and client. And as simple as it sounds, and and every recruiter would have said this, I I follow through and and do what I say that I will. it's not rocket science, but if you do those things every day and and they compile, I think you you'll be pretty successful in the recruitment industry.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Yeah, you've absolutely thrown yourself into the industry. You've, you know, been very actively involved. And we'll talk a bit about what that looks like in a moment. But not only are you very good at building relationships, but you're very good at stepping up, taking accountability, delivering results. So it it it looks like it's all those things that led to your company putting you forward and you then being named as a finalist. How how did that feel?
Thomas O'Connor: It felt great. It felt great. It was I I didn't think I'd get as nervous as what I did. I I was honoured to be recognised and and leading into the night, I thought that that was enough, but I did it was pretty nerve wracking and being one of the last awards to be announced.
Michael Jones: We're saying the the the best awards to last, but yes a very nerve
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: wracking way up until that point, isn't it?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, exactly. It's probably probably lucky I didn't win because I'd had a few drinks by the time my award got announced. And might not have gotten my cough win.
Michael Jones: But it is nerve wracking, isn't it? You know, y y there's that anticipation of of knowing or wondering whether you're gonna win or not.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. But I love that feeling. And that's probably something that I do enjoy about recruitment as well. And that's why I'll I'll jump on this podcast with you. I've never done a podcast before. I'll accept the offer to speak on stage at the RCA RCSA or host an event because that that sort of sink or swim the nerves leading into something and coming through the other side of it and and the endorphins that I get, I love it. And that's the same as maybe getting a job order that that you've been chasing for a long time and then you get it and you think, Shit, can I actually feel this? And you put in the work and you do and and just that rewarding feeling. something that should
Michael Jones: the the nerves propel you to give it a go and work through and it it's it's a it's a positive feeling.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. It might keep you awake at night. a couple of nights in the lead up and you know, there's stressful times, but when it does pay off, it's it's great.
Michael Jones: Hmm. being recognized as a finalist for the Rising Star Industry Awards for the RC say, what does that mean to you?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, it's great. It's amazing. I think you do get, especially first nomination, being in recruitment for a couple of years, you get a little bit of imposter syndrome and you think, you know, what what have I done different or or above and beyond anybody else? But having the team at HSS and and the RCSA recognise it, yeah, it's a it's a great feeling and it it proves that I'm heading in the right direction and onward and upward, yeah.
Michael Jones: And upwards indeed. So you you mentioned before that you're actively involved with the RCSA, as am I. And over the past couple of years I've seen you here in WA attending various events and training that the RCSA have organised locally. You've volunteered as the Western Australia Next Gen Rep. And this year you actually were involved with the Taladex conference in Melbourne. and you stepped up and spoke on stage. I mean, talk about throwing yourself into it, but but I I I wanted to ask you, why did you feel that it was important to engage with the RCSA?
Thomas O'Connor: I think like what we spoke about before, being being a blue collar guy, and the trouble that you can get yourself in in the recruitment industry by saying or doing the wrong things. that as well as just wanting to surround myself with with as many industry leaders as I can and just through having conversations I'll pick pick up, you know, tidbits of information, techniques that they might have used, learn from mistakes that they might have made in the past. just immerse myself in the industry as much as I can, just to be as be as good at it as I can and just be a sponge. So it's been a great opportunity to speak to recruiters nationwide. the West Australian Council, as you know, being on it, are are great. even they're informal mentors and they some of them probably don't even realise they're my mentors, but they are. and I absorb anything that I can from them and then Being a smaller agency and being the first agency that I've ever worked in in recruitment, being able to speak to other directors of companies, people in other recruitment companies and understanding how their business might work, I just think it it's all beneficial. And if if you want to thrive in the industry, just learn as much as you can, right?
Michael Jones: Well, absolutely. You know, a a a a well-informed, well connected recruiter is a successful recruiter. And it sounds like you saw the RCSA as an opportunity for you to learn more about your profession, elevate your skills and knowledge, which is going to help you be more successful in your job, and you're getting lots out of it in terms of professional development, coaching and mentoring, But that's also because you've really embraced that opportunity. there are some people who are part of the RCSA and don't get the same things out of it.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And then and then on the flip side of things, obviously all those things are really beneficial to me. But then on the flip side of things, once you have learned it and and the bits of information that you do pick up, you can pass them on as well, whether that's within your own company at RCSA networking events or speaking to junior recruiters or or anybody that's looking to get in the industry. And I think that's really valuable too.
Michael Jones: It is, hundred percent agree with you. So we we talked about how you are the Western Australian next gen rep. Can you tell us a bit about the RCSA's Next Gen Collective?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so the collective we have one next gen rep in each state, and next gen means that you're within your first five years of recruitment. We try to host or we do host training sessions quarterly, online and in person. And I think it's it's really beneficial for new recruiters or people within their first one to three, four years in the industry to be able to listen to these these experts or industry leaders that aren't too far separated from where you are now. They can still relate to all the problems that you might be having now. I think that's really beneficial and something that I really enjoy.
Michael Jones: Something that I didn't really have when I was a a junior recruiter. I mean, I worked for a big agency that had great training, great support, but in my little office, I was one of the only rookies and I didn't necessarily know the rookies in the other offices that I could call up or go for a coffee with and and, you know, get some advice from. And I guess that's also part of the Next Gen Collective, is to have that. community of peers at the same level that you can lean on and learn from.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And we wanna drive there's a lot of fallout in recruitment. In in that one to two years, a lot of people drop off and and it is from being let down. maybe there's been a lull in jobs and job orders and we we wanna be able to connect with those those people and and just let them know like stick it out, this is a great career. everybody's been through what they're going through and sort
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: of just, you know, things you can chip away at and council meetings, training, working on yourself and your craft, the things that you can really focus on in those quiet points or those tough
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: times. And that's where the council's great.
Michael Jones: So anyone who works for an organization that is a member of the RCSA can join the Next Gen collective, sign up for the webinars, attend the meetings, and if there are local events, go along and and and mingle with their peers. Is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. if you are a member of the RCSA you should should receive the newsletters, get emailed to. Also, if you follow myself or the RCSA on LinkedIn, we'll always post about any events that are coming up, reach out to any of the members directly and and they're all great people, they'd be happy to help and point you in the right direction.
Michael Jones: Yeah, great. I believe there's also a a specific LinkedIn group for RCSA Next Gen Collective. So that's another way that people can get involved and and know what's going on. You mentioned that there was a a session today that you attended as part of the Next Gen. What was the topic? Just out of interest.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so I was focusing on client relationships and and sort of building that B D network. It was hosted by Blake, who's a Victorian next gender. and I was just really, you know, tailored at those client interactions, building that relationship and focusing on, you know, finding some pain points prior to necessarily asking for a job order.
Michael Jones: Okay. So very, very relevant, very helpful. Sounds like it would be a a a a great session for a a recruiter who's early on in their career to come along and get some advice on.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, well I think every every recruiter knows stepping into that business development side of the industry is probably the most nerve-wracking. And I remember being on there and like making my BD calls and and hoping that the person on the other end of the phone didn't pick up. And being able to leave
Michael Jones: you did that too. I thought it just me. Okay.
Thomas O'Connor: a message. You know, you can put it in your CRM that you've called and left a message and and ticked a box. and just being able to relate. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Don't pick up. I hear you. Okay. so good luck with the the the next gen collective. it sounds like a really valuable resource for people early on in their careers. some great ways that they can get involved in that. I wanted to talk now about the the the the speaking experience you had up on stage at Talonx. So If anyone doesn't know, Talent X is the annual conference that the RCSA organizes. It alternates between being in Sydney and Melbourne, and it's a re a roadshow and a showcase where suppliers present the latest innovations, and then there's lots of fantastic speakers sharing their experiences, their insights, their top tips. What what were you speaking about? What was your panel?
Thomas O'Connor: So I was on a panel with Ben Hamer, who's the MC and Jess Hatzis, who who's a marketing founder and CEO of of Frank Body. on the board of Bet's shoes. So it was Ben and I interviewing Jess about sort of entering the room and and owning the room and and marketing yourself. Jess had mentioned that she was naturally an introvert and and that that sort of, you know, marketing herself and speaking to people and clients was something that she'd really had to work on. So it was just a a panel discussion about that and about her journey.
Michael Jones: Amazing. And how did that come about, that opportunity to speak?
Thomas O'Connor: So that came through the RCSA, Next Gen Council. Council Manager Erin reached out to the group and and asked if anybody was interested in speaking. The HSS team, yeah, absolutely. We were already heading over to Talon X. So I I put my hand up, I thought, I'll nominate myself now and I'll I'll figure it out later. And it was just one of those sink or swim moments that that I touched on earlier that I really enjoy.
Michael Jones: And how was it?
Thomas O'Connor: It was great. It was I was the last speaker of the day on Talon X, which sort of made made the rest of the day drag a little bit, you know, I was fidgeting, not sitting still in my seat. I I was at a lot of the other presentations and not able to focus as much as I would have liked, but the thrill of it's great when you're on stage, but I just think the thrill of coming off it after you've done it, you've survived all all those nerves leading up to it with nothing. And yeah, I I look forward to the next opportunity.
Michael Jones: I love that. And and again, you know, that is another up another example to me of how you constantly step up or step forwards. You you and and and put yourself out of your comfort zone. you know, I've never done this before, I'm I'm nervous about it, but I'm gonna give it a crack. And I I love that about you, Thomas, and I think that's that's such a great trait to have. What Why why is it why why do you do this? Why do you take yourself out of your comfort zone in these ways?
Thomas O'Connor: Just looking back on my life, that's the only the main way that I've learned anything is by stuffing it up in my life. I make a mistake, I learn from it. somebody telling me that if you do this, this negative outcome is going to happen doesn't necessarily work for me. I need to experience it for myself.
Michael Jones: The length is hell.
Thomas O'Connor: And then putting into context, especially in these speaking roles, and now learning a BD call. Put it into context. What what's the worst thing that could possibly happen? The worst thing that could happen is you say something stupid. Nobody knows you there personally. Realistically it'll feel like it it's a really big deal to you, but nobody will necessarily care. So you put that into context, you weigh up the pros and the cons of the the great feeling that you can get from doing it versus what what's the worst thing that can happen? I think it's a no brainer.
Michael Jones: Yeah. What what's the worst that can happen? Absolutely.
Thomas O'Connor: Exactly.
Michael Jones: Feel the fear and do it anyway. And and that's how we
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: grow, isn't it? By stepping out of our comfort zone, doing different things, trying new experiences. That that's how we learn and and improve and and get noticed.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, and I think that's a real sticking point for some recruiters, especially early on in their career, that they do procrastination's a big thing, right? Scrolling, especially B D, researching a company to death rather than just picking up the phone. And then
Michael Jones: Yes. Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: half the time the person doesn't answer anyway, so you've wasted all that time researching. I learned
Michael Jones: I was thinking of procrastination back in the day. I I could find
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: any excuse under the sun not to pick up the phone. And really all you're doing in that moment, as you say, is you're making yourself more nervous. You are psyching yourself out. And eventually when you do sum up the courage to do it, and but don't pick up the phone if we're talking about a B D call, you just wasted all that time. So you're right, feel the fear, do it anyway. What's the worst that can happen?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, exactly. And I I've I'm sure you have it. I've stuffed up my fair share as well. I've gotten off the phone and I said, Why why didn't I say this? That there was the perfect opportunity to lead into this and you didn't. You you evaluate, you know, try and say that you won't do it next time and then odds on you probably will do the exact same
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: thing. So Yeah, then
Michael Jones: And Thomas, you're you're absolutely right. You know, the the the the average recruiter is going to find themselves in lots of different situations that they haven't experienced before. And there's that that that choice to make, which is, okay, step up and step out of your comfort zone, or step back and retreat. So, you know, i is there anything else that you would say to someone who's in that moment where I'm feeling really uncomfortable, I'm feeling really nervous about something, you know, w Before I run away, wha wha what what advice would you have?
Thomas O'Connor: I'd say own it. I'd say own it. I'd say don't bottle it up. Speak to your colleagues. Speak to anybody that's around you about how you feel because they've if they say they haven't felt the same way, they're a liar. It's as simple as that.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: you know, and and then after you've you've been reassured and you've spoken to them, just just do it. If you stuff it up again, speak to your colleagues, d sort do a debrief on it without it being too official. Have a chat, this person said this, I said that, you know, I look like an idiot. Have a laugh about it, more than likely, and then move
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: on.
Michael Jones: But if you never give it a go, you're never gonna know if you can do it or not. You're never gonna learn. You'll you'll you'll never get better at something.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And my approach has always been to not be too polished on the phone when I'm speaking to people. Be genuine, be be authentic. and and take that blue collar approach of having a conversation. And that that obviously it it differs a little bit depending on the person that you're talking to or the role that they're doing. And and obviously I'm only speaking from recruiting in a in a mining industry and not necessarily doctors per se. But yeah, just just understanding that and having a conversation. You're never going to know more about the person that you're speaking to's job than what they are. But the
Michael Jones: That's not your job anyway.
Thomas O'Connor: No, exactly. No. Your job's listening, understanding what they're listening, looking for, and then marrying that to to what one of your clients looking for.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. That's really good advice. I think a lot of people put that pressure on themselves. I need to know everything about everything. you you have to have knowledge and understanding and be informed about the jobs you recruit for and the the market you you operate in. But as you say, Thomas, it's not about knowing more than the candidate or client. my area of expertise is in recruiting for these roles. and finding these candidates and assessing individuals and managing a recruitment process. And I think once you take that pressure off your shoulders, you you you you're a lot more relaxed and you know things go a lot better, don't they?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, definitely. And I c I can't remember where I heard it. You know what? It could have been been in one of your trainings that I did, so I'm gonna steal it from you. if you if you speak to somebody and they do eighty percent of the talking and you do twenty, then they're gonna leave that con everyone loves speaking, talking about themselves, so they're gonna leave that conversation thinking you're the most interesting person they've ever met. And that's something that that's stuck with me. So when I'm having conversation with a candidate client, I'll I'll talk to them, ask them small open open ended questions, let them talk and through them speaking, especially on the candidate side of things, you actually learn so much more about their roles if you if you retain the information that they're saying. And then when you're doing your next interview, you've learnt A, B, or C about whatever role that you're recruiting for.
Michael Jones: Yeah. I think that's a very good thing to remember. It definitely sounds like a great thing that I would have said. So I'll take that. Thank
Thomas O'Connor: Take it. I know.
Michael Jones: you. So I mean, congratulations again on on the RCSA award finalist status. will you try again next year, do you think?
Thomas O'Connor: it'll depend on the next twelve months, I guess, whether I'm worthy. I'll I'll definitely put my best foot forward. I'll do everything I can every day and wait to be in that position again and and we'll see what happens.
Michael Jones: That's all you can do. Focus on the next twelve months, continue to do a great job and who knows, who knows.
Thomas O'Connor: And it'd be crap of me not to congratulate you on your award at the RCSA as well, of recruitment professional of the year, was it?
Michael Jones: Thank you. Recruitment Professional of the Year, that's right. Yes, thank you. I I wasn't fishing, but I do appreciate the return compliment. Thank you.
Thomas O'Connor: I saw I saw you lock eyes with me and give me the look.
Michael Jones: no, I would never do that, Thomas. Never, never, never. Well, yeah, there's some great stuff in there. Thank you for sharing that. So let's move on to the quick fire segment round, where we get to know you really quickly. so Thomas, what's your proudest recruitment career moment to date?
Thomas O'Connor: Being nominated to that award was probably my proudest so far and just client feedback. When when you have solved problem you've you've placed a a permanent high level role.
Michael Jones: Amazing. Biggest mistake you've made on the job so far.
Thomas O'Connor: man, there's so many. So many.
Michael Jones: Okay.
Thomas O'Connor: I I remember sending through the same wrong wrong document like four times in a row in four consecutive emails.
Michael Jones: thing you'd like to change about the recruitment industry, if you could
Thomas O'Connor: about the industry as a whole.
Michael Jones: Hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: I'd love for it to be a lot more face to face than necessarily emails. a lot more, you know and I know it's speed to market, but even if it's not face to face, I'd love to see a lot more teams emails, I'd love to be ha on the phone to clients a lot more and rather than trying to receive a job order from an email.
Michael Jones: Yeah, it has become quite transactional in many instances. Right. People buy from people, so face to face is is really quite key. biggest recruitment myth, you want to bus.
Thomas O'Connor: Biggest recruitment miss. It's probably just that that these these cliche lines of like call your client and ask what their pain points are and that they're gonna tell you straight away is is like a massive myth and and my initial B D calls were trying to do that rather than spark up a conversation and and maybe three months down the track after you've spoken to five or six times is when you're gonna get that job.
Michael Jones: Okay, thank you. what do you wish you'd known or known how to do earlier on in your recruitment career?
Thomas O'Connor: probably like tailor an email correctly rather than sit there and try and try and finesse it for for forty five minutes, half hour, mobilise people a lot quicker than what I what I could when I first started and wasted days.
Michael Jones: Okay. So speed and efficiency it sounds like.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And probably planning and time management.
Michael Jones: Okay. What's one habit that all recruiters should develop?
Thomas O'Connor: I think it is structuring your day. I think it's not getting caught up in your emails. I think it's structuring your day that you're gonna recruit for this period of time. If you're a three sixty recruiter, you're gonna study your B D for this period of time and then you're gonna make those follow up calls, I think. is what everybody should have. And and stick to it. Don't get don't get lured into your emails or, you know, caught up in procrastinating that way.
Michael Jones: This is the challenge, isn't it, working in recruitment, being very reactive. what's the most underrated recruiter skill, in your opinion?
Thomas O'Connor: underrated recruitment skill. it probably is listening. It probably is listening and not trying to just push push a a triangle into a square if that's the saying or a s a a s square into
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: a circle. Listening and if the job's not right for the candidate you're speaking to or or vice versa with the client, understanding that and being honest and transparent, not being, you know, holding your cards in one hand and and trying to figure it out.
Michael Jones: Yeah. Always working with integrity and and and matching
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: accurately. best career advice you've ever received.
Thomas O'Connor: I think it's this opportunity. I think this opportunity to get into recruitment, it wasn't necessarily career advice. Actually, come to think of it, I did what led me to that, I just had a light bulb moment then. one of my friends had been for a job interview just before I went for this one with HSS and I think he did something similar where he was just honest and said what he wanted and it resulted in him getting a a project manager position. So was it advice? No,
Michael Jones: Us for all.
Thomas O'Connor: but I just copied what he did and it's worked out well for both of us.
Michael Jones: Great. what are your future career goals and aspirations?
Thomas O'Connor: One thing I've focused on is not trying to necessarily I've got an o an overarching goal, I guess, to just be an industry leader and and I'm I'm working towards that. but it's more short term goals of of just being staying consistent, keeping on picking up the phone, not getting too down in those those lulls and and just yeah, keep chipping away.
Michael Jones: Absolutely great. So what's something that people would be surprised to learn about you? a quirky part of your personality, a strange hobby you might have? What's something that people would find surprising?
Thomas O'Connor: I'm pretty transparent with everything. I love a just boring alien documentary, big on an alien conspiracy. I don't necessarily believe them, but I just
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: find interesting.
Michael Jones: I wouldn't have known that about you. That is very surprising.
Thomas O'Connor: Exactly.
Michael Jones: Well, Thomas, thank you for answering those questions. And again, thank you for your time today on the podcast. You've given some really great advice for people about the importance of getting involved with their industry and their profession, the benefits of stepping up rather than stepping back. And I think you are a great role model for people. who are early on in their recruitment career, who maybe come from the tools or come from a different type of background. And I'm very excited to see what the next couple of years holds for you. So thank you for the contribution that you do locally and as part of the RCSA. And fingers crossed for a win next year at the RCSA Awards.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, we'll give it our best shot. Thanks for having me, MJ. Appreciate it.
Michael Jones: No problems. Thank you, Thomas. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
Thomas O'Connor: Thanks for having me, MJ.
Michael Jones: pleasure. Great to chat to you and and find out more about yourself. Thomas, let's let's start off the podcast today by getting to know you a little bit more. I'd love to hear about your role, who you work for and what you recruit for.
Thomas O'Connor: So my role is team lead at HSS Recruitment. We're a boutique mid-sized recruitment agency that focuses on supplying to the mining and civil construction areas in Western Australia. So the core of our business would be production machinery operators, maintenance, trade qualified personnel, as well as the white collar management roles in the mining and civil industry.
Michael Jones: Fantastic. And Thomas, how long have you worked in recruitment for?
Thomas O'Connor: I've been in recruitment for closing on two and a half years now. So not too
Michael Jones: Excellent.
Thomas O'Connor: long, a lot to learn.
Michael Jones: Okay. And and tell us about your background before joining recruitment.
Thomas O'Connor: So I grew up in Tasmania. there wasn't much opportunity there. So I ended up joining the military. joined the Royal Australian Navy as a marine technician. So I was there for five years and when I left I I had a trade certificate as a mechanical fitter, which I did for a period of time in the mining industry, but I hated it. I I never enjoyed it. And and the opportunity arose to get into recruitment, so I grabbed it with two hands.
Michael Jones: Okay. What what didn't you enjoy about your job before?
Thomas O'Connor: I joined the military more so just just to actually join the military, not necessarily for the trade that I got. I I was never interested in mechanics. It was it was something that didn't come naturally to me. And although I had a trade certificate and and I was qualified, I didn't progress, I didn't enjoy it. I worked to live, not not the other way around, not live to work, which I feel like I do a bit of now.
Michael Jones: I see. Okay. And why did you decide to start a career in recruitment?
Thomas O'Connor: So it was opportunity more than anything, which I feel like is the tail for a lot of recruiters. I I came for an interview with HSS recruitment. I was going to go back into the fly and fly out lifestyle and something clicked in my interview and and s I just said to look, I hate it. I hate being a mechanical fitter. I feel like my skills are, you know, building relationships, being personable, having conversations and and solving problems.
Michael Jones: And so it was you interviewing with HSS, your current employer, interacting with that recruiter and and and something sparked in you. So it wasn't
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: necessarily that they said, Hey Thomas, we think you'd be a good recruiter. You you you you thought of it through the interaction with that person?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, I'd I'd been out of fitting for a little while and I think something in me it was like a last resort to go back fitting and I just I decided at that point in time, I don't know what it was, to just be completely honest, transparent, and I didn't necessarily think that they'd have a recruiting role within the company for me, but they might have some other sales based position that they could place me in and that's just the way it worked out.
Michael Jones: There you go. And I love the fact that your employer saw potential in you and gave you an opportunity to start a recruitment career because, you know, as we know very often, agencies are looking for experience. which is always that hard thing of how do I get into recruitment if nobody's gonna give me experience? But agents just gave you that chance and and and as you say. two, two and a half years later, you y you're still here doing a great job.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. There's there's one thing about if in school I'd have known that I could have made a career out of speaking to people, forming relationships. In recruitment we are solving problems, but I don't necessarily see it as that. I I feel like from having conversations and ultimately a pain point will come out with my client and then and then just through through working together you can solve it.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: yeah, I'd I wouldn't have maths and science is overrated.
Michael Jones: Well, this is the thing, isn't it? a lot of people don't know about recruitment. They don't understand what the job's all about. It's it's not seen as an aspirational career that many people specifically choose. Like a lot of people say they fall into recruitment. I didn't. I I specifically wanted to get into recruitment, but I saw it as a stepping stone towards something else. But obviously 20 years later I'm still in it. But yeah, it's an interesting point. Maybe we as an industry need to think about what can we do to make more people aware of how great a job and how great a career this could be. Maybe we'd get more people wanting to come and work f with us.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And through since I've been in recruitment and I've I've got a lot of friends in different industries and and that are still on the tools. And they are all interested. They all say, How do I get into recruitment? Like why don't how can I do what you do? So the I think the interest is there. It's just opening the door and and giving opportunity that
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: we need to get better at.
Michael Jones: Well, thank goodness HSS saw that potential and gave you that start. How how did you find you know, starting a career in recruitment? Because I imagine it was very different to what you'd done previously.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. So probably political correctness had to come into play a lot more when speaking on the phone to in comparison to being a a blue collar fitter.
Michael Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah. and then the conversation side of things I was good at. I've always had those soft skills of of forming relationships and speaking to people, but the the computer, the admin and the mobilization side of things is what I struggled most with the recruitment and probably still do To this day, but I have gotten better, but I think it's still got a long way to go.
Michael Jones: Well, you're not alone there, Thomas. I think most recruiters struggle with the admin, the paperwork, the compliance. It's it's not the sexy part of the job, but obviously it's really, really important. but yeah, you make a really interesting point. You know, transitioning off the tools into an office environment, it's such a different thing, isn't it? And the way you talk to people and the way you write an email, it's it's you've got to be much more careful, like you said.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, phone etiquette, emails, even the conversations, as you can imagine, on a mind site that that you speak about with your colleagues at in comparison to office based conversations are quite different.
Michael Jones: Yes. I mean you're still talking to the same types of people, but it's a different interaction and a different relationship. So you have to change everything.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, definitely. I think one one of my strong points with recruitment that I lean on quite a bit is that blue-collar approach. So so you you say change everything. I think having that as the core and just refining it a little bit and being able to have those blue-collar conversations with my clients, with my candidates really helps.
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: but yeah, you just gotta scale it back a little bit to what it was like on site.
Michael Jones: Just slightly, just slightly. So communication and and tailoring your approach was was something you had to get used to. W what else was it like learning how to become a recruiter? Because what I always say to people is it's such a steep learning curve. Did you find that?
Thomas O'Connor: I did. I had a really good team around me that supported me. one of my colleagues who's been in recruitment for six or seven years j and has really refined the admin and and etiquette. Phone etiquette sort of supported me a lot throughout that period. So I felt really like engaged there and and looked after. They knew what my background was and and that there were going to be things that I I needed to work on, so they were pretty patient with me.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: but it was yeah, it was difficult ha in different aspects obviously to to the physical work that you're doing on mine site. So I'd come home, I'd be mentally I I don't know if I'd be mentally exhausted, but you know, fatigued but in a different way to you would be being on on your feet and working with your hands every day.
Michael Jones: Yeah. mentally exhausted rather than physically exhausted. It but i i it it is a very different experience. how was it coming off the tools and and working on site to then be recruiting those people and and finding them jobs and, you know, providing personnel for the projects that you were previously involved in? How how did all that go?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so that that I think came naturally because the pain points that the candidates would have I'd been through before. I'd been through slow mobilisations, I'd been through projects delays, what in what candidates are looking for in camp conditions, necessarily on mine sites, what what the strengths, pros and cons are from each side. So I could relate to them in that and I think that made them a lot a lot more comfortable with having me doing the recruiting for them. So That side of things, yeah, I picked up pretty quickly.
Michael Jones: Yeah. You knew the challenges, you knew the environment, you knew the roles. So you you having that knowledge must have made your job a lot easier. Was you know, is there ever ever any temptation when you get a new job or there's a new project you're working on and think, gosh, I missed that. Like that would have been a really good role for me or or is it no, definitely not?
Thomas O'Connor: Definitely not. I do I do a fair few site visits. I've just done a site visit earlier this week to my clients to sit down, speak to our employees and get a better understanding of what the site's like. I love that. I love going there. You know, getting in that camp environment again, getting my crib. And then I also love leaving and coming back.
Michael Jones: Very much. Yeah, I I I hear you. So in in terms of you know what you enjoy about being in recruitment, you've mentioned getting out to site. W is that the thing you enjoy the most, would you say?
Thomas O'Connor: I just building relationships, just speaking to people. I love I love that. I love being able to do speak to you here today as a part of work. In when I was on the tools in the mining environment, you turned up to work, you did your job and you left and you and you were pretty well supervised the whole time. I love the freedom that I get in recruitment to Go sit down, have a coffee with somebody, go drive out to see a client and just have a conversation. I'm not even selling at that point. I'm not trying to pitch to them recruitment. We're just building a relationship. And ultimately from that three, four, five meetings down the track, something will arise where where they do need my support and they'll come to me. I love I love that relationship building aspect of it.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. Yeah. I think most people get into recruitment because we like working with people, we enjoy helping others, we get a real sense of satisfaction through the relationships we build and the impact that we make. you're very good at relating to people and building relationships and that's what recruitment's all about, isn't it?
Thomas O'Connor: Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's it at its core. And then on on the flip side of that negative side of recruitment that being in the military and the mining industry taught me was resilience. And I think that is for for new people to recruitment that might not have worked in the industry or had, you know, younger people that haven't had as much life experience, I think that's a real sticking point that that might turn them away from the industry.
Michael Jones: 'Cause it's hard work, isn't it? And there are setbacks and frustrations and disappointments that you have to deal with.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. There's lulls lulls in, you know, the job orders coming in, there's speaking to somebody multiple times, you've done absolutely everything right and and then the person withdraws from the role or or ghosts you, which I think as a recruiter everybody's experience more than what they'd like to. And it does hurt, but you've just got to put it into context that it's a part of the job and and you didn't necessarily do anything wrong, potentially in that case and and just get on with it.
Michael Jones: Yeah, bounce back up, dust yourself off, keep on going. A hundred percent.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: So I'm a little bit late to say this, but congratulations on being a finalist in the recent RCSA Industry Awards. You were recognized as a finalist for the Rising Star category, is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: That's right, and thank you very much. Yeah, it was an honour to be recognised as a finalist and came as a bit of a shot, if I'm honest.
Michael Jones: Thick. And it was your first time being nominated, I understand, is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: It was, yeah, so I didn't understand the process too much. the team around HSS supported me through the application and and compiling all the data and sending it through and obviously they did a good job with that as well.
Michael Jones: Well, you know, someone who is involved in the industry awards as a judge, I can say I can tell you that the the the level of entries is very, very high. The competition is very tough, and to be a finalist on your first attempt is is an incredible achievement and very well deserved. But Thomas w tell me what what makes you a rising star? And don't be humble.
Thomas O'Connor: I just think I because I've come into recruitment later in life, I've joined the RCSA council, the Next Ten Council and and the West Australian Council and I'm I'm a naturally competitive guy. I played sport all my life and I want to catch up and propel myself into the industry as much as I can. So I've surrounded myself with with people who have been in the industry for a long time. I put in every day. I'm transparent and I I just work on relationships with both candidate and client. And as simple as it sounds, and and every recruiter would have said this, I I follow through and and do what I say that I will. it's not rocket science, but if you do those things every day and and they compile, I think you you'll be pretty successful in the recruitment industry.
Michael Jones: Hmm. Yeah, you've absolutely thrown yourself into the industry. You've, you know, been very actively involved. And we'll talk a bit about what that looks like in a moment. But not only are you very good at building relationships, but you're very good at stepping up, taking accountability, delivering results. So it it it looks like it's all those things that led to your company putting you forward and you then being named as a finalist. How how did that feel?
Thomas O'Connor: It felt great. It felt great. It was I I didn't think I'd get as nervous as what I did. I I was honoured to be recognised and and leading into the night, I thought that that was enough, but I did it was pretty nerve wracking and being one of the last awards to be announced.
Michael Jones: We're saying the the the best awards to last, but yes a very nerve
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: wracking way up until that point, isn't it?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, exactly. It's probably probably lucky I didn't win because I'd had a few drinks by the time my award got announced. And might not have gotten my cough win.
Michael Jones: But it is nerve wracking, isn't it? You know, y y there's that anticipation of of knowing or wondering whether you're gonna win or not.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. But I love that feeling. And that's probably something that I do enjoy about recruitment as well. And that's why I'll I'll jump on this podcast with you. I've never done a podcast before. I'll accept the offer to speak on stage at the RCA RCSA or host an event because that that sort of sink or swim the nerves leading into something and coming through the other side of it and and the endorphins that I get, I love it. And that's the same as maybe getting a job order that that you've been chasing for a long time and then you get it and you think, Shit, can I actually feel this? And you put in the work and you do and and just that rewarding feeling. something that should
Michael Jones: the the nerves propel you to give it a go and work through and it it's it's a it's a positive feeling.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. It might keep you awake at night. a couple of nights in the lead up and you know, there's stressful times, but when it does pay off, it's it's great.
Michael Jones: Hmm. being recognized as a finalist for the Rising Star Industry Awards for the RC say, what does that mean to you?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, it's great. It's amazing. I think you do get, especially first nomination, being in recruitment for a couple of years, you get a little bit of imposter syndrome and you think, you know, what what have I done different or or above and beyond anybody else? But having the team at HSS and and the RCSA recognise it, yeah, it's a it's a great feeling and it it proves that I'm heading in the right direction and onward and upward, yeah.
Michael Jones: And upwards indeed. So you you mentioned before that you're actively involved with the RCSA, as am I. And over the past couple of years I've seen you here in WA attending various events and training that the RCSA have organised locally. You've volunteered as the Western Australia Next Gen Rep. And this year you actually were involved with the Taladex conference in Melbourne. and you stepped up and spoke on stage. I mean, talk about throwing yourself into it, but but I I I wanted to ask you, why did you feel that it was important to engage with the RCSA?
Thomas O'Connor: I think like what we spoke about before, being being a blue collar guy, and the trouble that you can get yourself in in the recruitment industry by saying or doing the wrong things. that as well as just wanting to surround myself with with as many industry leaders as I can and just through having conversations I'll pick pick up, you know, tidbits of information, techniques that they might have used, learn from mistakes that they might have made in the past. just immerse myself in the industry as much as I can, just to be as be as good at it as I can and just be a sponge. So it's been a great opportunity to speak to recruiters nationwide. the West Australian Council, as you know, being on it, are are great. even they're informal mentors and they some of them probably don't even realise they're my mentors, but they are. and I absorb anything that I can from them and then Being a smaller agency and being the first agency that I've ever worked in in recruitment, being able to speak to other directors of companies, people in other recruitment companies and understanding how their business might work, I just think it it's all beneficial. And if if you want to thrive in the industry, just learn as much as you can, right?
Michael Jones: Well, absolutely. You know, a a a a well-informed, well connected recruiter is a successful recruiter. And it sounds like you saw the RCSA as an opportunity for you to learn more about your profession, elevate your skills and knowledge, which is going to help you be more successful in your job, and you're getting lots out of it in terms of professional development, coaching and mentoring, But that's also because you've really embraced that opportunity. there are some people who are part of the RCSA and don't get the same things out of it.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And then and then on the flip side of things, obviously all those things are really beneficial to me. But then on the flip side of things, once you have learned it and and the bits of information that you do pick up, you can pass them on as well, whether that's within your own company at RCSA networking events or speaking to junior recruiters or or anybody that's looking to get in the industry. And I think that's really valuable too.
Michael Jones: It is, hundred percent agree with you. So we we talked about how you are the Western Australian next gen rep. Can you tell us a bit about the RCSA's Next Gen Collective?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so the collective we have one next gen rep in each state, and next gen means that you're within your first five years of recruitment. We try to host or we do host training sessions quarterly, online and in person. And I think it's it's really beneficial for new recruiters or people within their first one to three, four years in the industry to be able to listen to these these experts or industry leaders that aren't too far separated from where you are now. They can still relate to all the problems that you might be having now. I think that's really beneficial and something that I really enjoy.
Michael Jones: Something that I didn't really have when I was a a junior recruiter. I mean, I worked for a big agency that had great training, great support, but in my little office, I was one of the only rookies and I didn't necessarily know the rookies in the other offices that I could call up or go for a coffee with and and, you know, get some advice from. And I guess that's also part of the Next Gen Collective, is to have that. community of peers at the same level that you can lean on and learn from.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And we wanna drive there's a lot of fallout in recruitment. In in that one to two years, a lot of people drop off and and it is from being let down. maybe there's been a lull in jobs and job orders and we we wanna be able to connect with those those people and and just let them know like stick it out, this is a great career. everybody's been through what they're going through and sort
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: of just, you know, things you can chip away at and council meetings, training, working on yourself and your craft, the things that you can really focus on in those quiet points or those tough
Michael Jones: Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: times. And that's where the council's great.
Michael Jones: So anyone who works for an organization that is a member of the RCSA can join the Next Gen collective, sign up for the webinars, attend the meetings, and if there are local events, go along and and and mingle with their peers. Is that right?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. if you are a member of the RCSA you should should receive the newsletters, get emailed to. Also, if you follow myself or the RCSA on LinkedIn, we'll always post about any events that are coming up, reach out to any of the members directly and and they're all great people, they'd be happy to help and point you in the right direction.
Michael Jones: Yeah, great. I believe there's also a a specific LinkedIn group for RCSA Next Gen Collective. So that's another way that people can get involved and and know what's going on. You mentioned that there was a a session today that you attended as part of the Next Gen. What was the topic? Just out of interest.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, so I was focusing on client relationships and and sort of building that B D network. It was hosted by Blake, who's a Victorian next gender. and I was just really, you know, tailored at those client interactions, building that relationship and focusing on, you know, finding some pain points prior to necessarily asking for a job order.
Michael Jones: Okay. So very, very relevant, very helpful. Sounds like it would be a a a a great session for a a recruiter who's early on in their career to come along and get some advice on.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, well I think every every recruiter knows stepping into that business development side of the industry is probably the most nerve-wracking. And I remember being on there and like making my BD calls and and hoping that the person on the other end of the phone didn't pick up. And being able to leave
Michael Jones: you did that too. I thought it just me. Okay.
Thomas O'Connor: a message. You know, you can put it in your CRM that you've called and left a message and and ticked a box. and just being able to relate. Yeah.
Michael Jones: Don't pick up. I hear you. Okay. so good luck with the the the next gen collective. it sounds like a really valuable resource for people early on in their careers. some great ways that they can get involved in that. I wanted to talk now about the the the the speaking experience you had up on stage at Talonx. So If anyone doesn't know, Talent X is the annual conference that the RCSA organizes. It alternates between being in Sydney and Melbourne, and it's a re a roadshow and a showcase where suppliers present the latest innovations, and then there's lots of fantastic speakers sharing their experiences, their insights, their top tips. What what were you speaking about? What was your panel?
Thomas O'Connor: So I was on a panel with Ben Hamer, who's the MC and Jess Hatzis, who who's a marketing founder and CEO of of Frank Body. on the board of Bet's shoes. So it was Ben and I interviewing Jess about sort of entering the room and and owning the room and and marketing yourself. Jess had mentioned that she was naturally an introvert and and that that sort of, you know, marketing herself and speaking to people and clients was something that she'd really had to work on. So it was just a a panel discussion about that and about her journey.
Michael Jones: Amazing. And how did that come about, that opportunity to speak?
Thomas O'Connor: So that came through the RCSA, Next Gen Council. Council Manager Erin reached out to the group and and asked if anybody was interested in speaking. The HSS team, yeah, absolutely. We were already heading over to Talon X. So I I put my hand up, I thought, I'll nominate myself now and I'll I'll figure it out later. And it was just one of those sink or swim moments that that I touched on earlier that I really enjoy.
Michael Jones: And how was it?
Thomas O'Connor: It was great. It was I was the last speaker of the day on Talon X, which sort of made made the rest of the day drag a little bit, you know, I was fidgeting, not sitting still in my seat. I I was at a lot of the other presentations and not able to focus as much as I would have liked, but the thrill of it's great when you're on stage, but I just think the thrill of coming off it after you've done it, you've survived all all those nerves leading up to it with nothing. And yeah, I I look forward to the next opportunity.
Michael Jones: I love that. And and again, you know, that is another up another example to me of how you constantly step up or step forwards. You you and and and put yourself out of your comfort zone. you know, I've never done this before, I'm I'm nervous about it, but I'm gonna give it a crack. And I I love that about you, Thomas, and I think that's that's such a great trait to have. What Why why is it why why do you do this? Why do you take yourself out of your comfort zone in these ways?
Thomas O'Connor: Just looking back on my life, that's the only the main way that I've learned anything is by stuffing it up in my life. I make a mistake, I learn from it. somebody telling me that if you do this, this negative outcome is going to happen doesn't necessarily work for me. I need to experience it for myself.
Michael Jones: The length is hell.
Thomas O'Connor: And then putting into context, especially in these speaking roles, and now learning a BD call. Put it into context. What what's the worst thing that could possibly happen? The worst thing that could happen is you say something stupid. Nobody knows you there personally. Realistically it'll feel like it it's a really big deal to you, but nobody will necessarily care. So you put that into context, you weigh up the pros and the cons of the the great feeling that you can get from doing it versus what what's the worst thing that can happen? I think it's a no brainer.
Michael Jones: Yeah. What what's the worst that can happen? Absolutely.
Thomas O'Connor: Exactly.
Michael Jones: Feel the fear and do it anyway. And and that's how we
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: grow, isn't it? By stepping out of our comfort zone, doing different things, trying new experiences. That that's how we learn and and improve and and get noticed.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, and I think that's a real sticking point for some recruiters, especially early on in their career, that they do procrastination's a big thing, right? Scrolling, especially B D, researching a company to death rather than just picking up the phone. And then
Michael Jones: Yes. Yes.
Thomas O'Connor: half the time the person doesn't answer anyway, so you've wasted all that time researching. I learned
Michael Jones: I was thinking of procrastination back in the day. I I could find
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: any excuse under the sun not to pick up the phone. And really all you're doing in that moment, as you say, is you're making yourself more nervous. You are psyching yourself out. And eventually when you do sum up the courage to do it, and but don't pick up the phone if we're talking about a B D call, you just wasted all that time. So you're right, feel the fear, do it anyway. What's the worst that can happen?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, exactly. And I I've I'm sure you have it. I've stuffed up my fair share as well. I've gotten off the phone and I said, Why why didn't I say this? That there was the perfect opportunity to lead into this and you didn't. You you evaluate, you know, try and say that you won't do it next time and then odds on you probably will do the exact same
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: thing. So Yeah, then
Michael Jones: And Thomas, you're you're absolutely right. You know, the the the the average recruiter is going to find themselves in lots of different situations that they haven't experienced before. And there's that that that choice to make, which is, okay, step up and step out of your comfort zone, or step back and retreat. So, you know, i is there anything else that you would say to someone who's in that moment where I'm feeling really uncomfortable, I'm feeling really nervous about something, you know, w Before I run away, wha wha what what advice would you have?
Thomas O'Connor: I'd say own it. I'd say own it. I'd say don't bottle it up. Speak to your colleagues. Speak to anybody that's around you about how you feel because they've if they say they haven't felt the same way, they're a liar. It's as simple as that.
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: you know, and and then after you've you've been reassured and you've spoken to them, just just do it. If you stuff it up again, speak to your colleagues, d sort do a debrief on it without it being too official. Have a chat, this person said this, I said that, you know, I look like an idiot. Have a laugh about it, more than likely, and then move
Michael Jones: Yeah.
Thomas O'Connor: on.
Michael Jones: But if you never give it a go, you're never gonna know if you can do it or not. You're never gonna learn. You'll you'll you'll never get better at something.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And my approach has always been to not be too polished on the phone when I'm speaking to people. Be genuine, be be authentic. and and take that blue collar approach of having a conversation. And that that obviously it it differs a little bit depending on the person that you're talking to or the role that they're doing. And and obviously I'm only speaking from recruiting in a in a mining industry and not necessarily doctors per se. But yeah, just just understanding that and having a conversation. You're never going to know more about the person that you're speaking to's job than what they are. But the
Michael Jones: That's not your job anyway.
Thomas O'Connor: No, exactly. No. Your job's listening, understanding what they're listening, looking for, and then marrying that to to what one of your clients looking for.
Michael Jones: Absolutely. That's really good advice. I think a lot of people put that pressure on themselves. I need to know everything about everything. you you have to have knowledge and understanding and be informed about the jobs you recruit for and the the market you you operate in. But as you say, Thomas, it's not about knowing more than the candidate or client. my area of expertise is in recruiting for these roles. and finding these candidates and assessing individuals and managing a recruitment process. And I think once you take that pressure off your shoulders, you you you you're a lot more relaxed and you know things go a lot better, don't they?
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, definitely. And I c I can't remember where I heard it. You know what? It could have been been in one of your trainings that I did, so I'm gonna steal it from you. if you if you speak to somebody and they do eighty percent of the talking and you do twenty, then they're gonna leave that con everyone loves speaking, talking about themselves, so they're gonna leave that conversation thinking you're the most interesting person they've ever met. And that's something that that's stuck with me. So when I'm having conversation with a candidate client, I'll I'll talk to them, ask them small open open ended questions, let them talk and through them speaking, especially on the candidate side of things, you actually learn so much more about their roles if you if you retain the information that they're saying. And then when you're doing your next interview, you've learnt A, B, or C about whatever role that you're recruiting for.
Michael Jones: Yeah. I think that's a very good thing to remember. It definitely sounds like a great thing that I would have said. So I'll take that. Thank
Thomas O'Connor: Take it. I know.
Michael Jones: you. So I mean, congratulations again on on the RCSA award finalist status. will you try again next year, do you think?
Thomas O'Connor: it'll depend on the next twelve months, I guess, whether I'm worthy. I'll I'll definitely put my best foot forward. I'll do everything I can every day and wait to be in that position again and and we'll see what happens.
Michael Jones: That's all you can do. Focus on the next twelve months, continue to do a great job and who knows, who knows.
Thomas O'Connor: And it'd be crap of me not to congratulate you on your award at the RCSA as well, of recruitment professional of the year, was it?
Michael Jones: Thank you. Recruitment Professional of the Year, that's right. Yes, thank you. I I wasn't fishing, but I do appreciate the return compliment. Thank you.
Thomas O'Connor: I saw I saw you lock eyes with me and give me the look.
Michael Jones: no, I would never do that, Thomas. Never, never, never. Well, yeah, there's some great stuff in there. Thank you for sharing that. So let's move on to the quick fire segment round, where we get to know you really quickly. so Thomas, what's your proudest recruitment career moment to date?
Thomas O'Connor: Being nominated to that award was probably my proudest so far and just client feedback. When when you have solved problem you've you've placed a a permanent high level role.
Michael Jones: Amazing. Biggest mistake you've made on the job so far.
Thomas O'Connor: man, there's so many. So many.
Michael Jones: Okay.
Thomas O'Connor: I I remember sending through the same wrong wrong document like four times in a row in four consecutive emails.
Michael Jones: thing you'd like to change about the recruitment industry, if you could
Thomas O'Connor: about the industry as a whole.
Michael Jones: Hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: I'd love for it to be a lot more face to face than necessarily emails. a lot more, you know and I know it's speed to market, but even if it's not face to face, I'd love to see a lot more teams emails, I'd love to be ha on the phone to clients a lot more and rather than trying to receive a job order from an email.
Michael Jones: Yeah, it has become quite transactional in many instances. Right. People buy from people, so face to face is is really quite key. biggest recruitment myth, you want to bus.
Thomas O'Connor: Biggest recruitment miss. It's probably just that that these these cliche lines of like call your client and ask what their pain points are and that they're gonna tell you straight away is is like a massive myth and and my initial B D calls were trying to do that rather than spark up a conversation and and maybe three months down the track after you've spoken to five or six times is when you're gonna get that job.
Michael Jones: Okay, thank you. what do you wish you'd known or known how to do earlier on in your recruitment career?
Thomas O'Connor: probably like tailor an email correctly rather than sit there and try and try and finesse it for for forty five minutes, half hour, mobilise people a lot quicker than what I what I could when I first started and wasted days.
Michael Jones: Okay. So speed and efficiency it sounds like.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, absolutely. And probably planning and time management.
Michael Jones: Okay. What's one habit that all recruiters should develop?
Thomas O'Connor: I think it is structuring your day. I think it's not getting caught up in your emails. I think it's structuring your day that you're gonna recruit for this period of time. If you're a three sixty recruiter, you're gonna study your B D for this period of time and then you're gonna make those follow up calls, I think. is what everybody should have. And and stick to it. Don't get don't get lured into your emails or, you know, caught up in procrastinating that way.
Michael Jones: This is the challenge, isn't it, working in recruitment, being very reactive. what's the most underrated recruiter skill, in your opinion?
Thomas O'Connor: underrated recruitment skill. it probably is listening. It probably is listening and not trying to just push push a a triangle into a square if that's the saying or a s a a s square into
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: a circle. Listening and if the job's not right for the candidate you're speaking to or or vice versa with the client, understanding that and being honest and transparent, not being, you know, holding your cards in one hand and and trying to figure it out.
Michael Jones: Yeah. Always working with integrity and and and matching
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah.
Michael Jones: accurately. best career advice you've ever received.
Thomas O'Connor: I think it's this opportunity. I think this opportunity to get into recruitment, it wasn't necessarily career advice. Actually, come to think of it, I did what led me to that, I just had a light bulb moment then. one of my friends had been for a job interview just before I went for this one with HSS and I think he did something similar where he was just honest and said what he wanted and it resulted in him getting a a project manager position. So was it advice? No,
Michael Jones: Us for all.
Thomas O'Connor: but I just copied what he did and it's worked out well for both of us.
Michael Jones: Great. what are your future career goals and aspirations?
Thomas O'Connor: One thing I've focused on is not trying to necessarily I've got an o an overarching goal, I guess, to just be an industry leader and and I'm I'm working towards that. but it's more short term goals of of just being staying consistent, keeping on picking up the phone, not getting too down in those those lulls and and just yeah, keep chipping away.
Michael Jones: Absolutely great. So what's something that people would be surprised to learn about you? a quirky part of your personality, a strange hobby you might have? What's something that people would find surprising?
Thomas O'Connor: I'm pretty transparent with everything. I love a just boring alien documentary, big on an alien conspiracy. I don't necessarily believe them, but I just
Michael Jones: Mm-hmm.
Thomas O'Connor: find interesting.
Michael Jones: I wouldn't have known that about you. That is very surprising.
Thomas O'Connor: Exactly.
Michael Jones: Well, Thomas, thank you for answering those questions. And again, thank you for your time today on the podcast. You've given some really great advice for people about the importance of getting involved with their industry and their profession, the benefits of stepping up rather than stepping back. And I think you are a great role model for people. who are early on in their recruitment career, who maybe come from the tools or come from a different type of background. And I'm very excited to see what the next couple of years holds for you. So thank you for the contribution that you do locally and as part of the RCSA. And fingers crossed for a win next year at the RCSA Awards.
Thomas O'Connor: Yeah, we'll give it our best shot. Thanks for having me, MJ. Appreciate it.
Michael Jones: No problems. Thank you, Thomas. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Developing Experts Podcast. Be sure to join us again. And if you'd like to be a guest, put forward someone, or nominate a topic for discussion, then please reach out to me on social media or via email. I look forward to seeing you again next time.
