Multimodal Learning That Works With Dr. Dwayne Wood

WEBVTT
00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:04.240
Hello, and welcome to the Designing with Love Podcast.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:12.080
I am your host, Jackie Pellegrin, where my goal is to bring you information, tips, and tricks as an instructional designer.
00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:16.559
Hello, instructional designers and educators.
00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:21.039
Welcome to episode 152 of the Designing with Love Podcast.
00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:22.800
I'm excited to welcome Dr.
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.600
Dwayne Wood back for part two of our mini-series.
00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:28.399
And he wants me to call him Dwayne, so I will do that.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:33.520
In our previous conversation, we explored generative AI's impact on academic curriculum.
00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:43.439
Today we're shifting the focus to multimodal learning and how instructional designers and educators can use different formats, tools, and techniques to better support adult learners.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:57.920
Duane brings a strong background in adult education, curriculum development, instructional design, and emerging technologies, which makes this a great conversation for anyone who wants to design learning experiences that are more flexible, engaging, and accessible.
00:00:58.159 --> 00:00:59.520
Welcome back to the show, Duane.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:01.439
No, thank you.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:02.799
You're welcome.
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:04.319
So glad to have you back.
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:11.200
So to start, when we talk about multimodal learning, what does that mean to you, especially in the context of adult education?
00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:19.040
Well, so, and I mean the traditional definition, right, of of multimodal is just multiple means, right, of of passing information.
00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:25.920
And I think traditionally we think of that as uh, you know, video, audio, you know, text, uh, but you know, there's there's a lot more out there.
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:36.560
Uh you can think of a simulation as a a mode, or um and then an AI technology can be a mode for transmitting um information.
00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:50.640
And when I think about this within the adult context, and in the adult learning context, we really have to think about what how is that mode, that specific mode we're thinking about, helping us achieve that learning outcome that we've outlined and the best means.
00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:55.040
And I like to use an example and we we'll dig into like cognitive load here.
00:01:55.280 --> 00:02:02.239
So, you know, the the older model of cognitive load had three categories intrinsic, um, extraneous and um germane, right?
00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:03.359
Germane is the one you wanted.
00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.879
Extraneous, intrinsic uh caused some some some problems there.
00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:18.080
So when we think about the mode, uh, you know, one of the things I like to say is, you know, if I gave if I read out the mathematical description of a cone, it takes people a long time to figure out to know what I'm talking about.
00:02:18.159 --> 00:02:20.719
Because it has a high intrinsic load in that mode.
00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:27.919
But if I just showed you a picture of a cone, you'd get it in seconds, quick, fast, because that mode has a lower intrinsic load.
00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:43.199
So when we're thinking about our our uh what modes we're using, we're trying to reduce that extraneous and cognitive load so that the the learner can pick up on the information um and and and understand it in a much more efficient way.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:48.400
Um and they're not spending a lot of time and effort trying to figure out what you're what you're getting at.
00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:59.439
So that's when we think about the mode, it's what are we using that helps us get that learner the information or the knowledge or the skill in the most efficient way we can, right?
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:01.120
With without a bunch of extraneous.
00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:13.039
And if you think about this in terms of motivation, you know, if if you open up a new course and you're like, I'm ready to learn, and all of a sudden that you got to read 400 pages of dense text, what happens to your motivation, right?
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:14.800
It's probably gonna drive, right?
00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:29.039
Um, so we have to kind of think about it in those in those contexts, much larger uh in a more holistic way in how we're presenting information to a learner and how they're gonna navigate that to achieve that uh learning goal.
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:39.120
And we can look at where those friction points or that um that cognitive load and could we use another mode to help reduce that cognitive load for that for that learner.
00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.000
Right.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:43.919
That's really important, especially now with adult learners.
00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.439
Most of them are taking classes online or they're doing blended learning, right?
00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:54.719
So we need to account for that, but they may not be in a live classroom with an instructor on hand to be able to answer those questions.
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:58.479
So they're doing more of that independent type of study, right?
00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:03.680
On on their own, where it may be, it may not be synchronous, it may be asynchronous learning.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:05.120
No, you're absolutely right.
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:13.680
You know, that that technology you're interfacing with, if it's not intuitive or if it's not something you've used before, you've already added cognitive load right to that activity.
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:22.000
I I like to use examples back a long time, but I I took a uh a business statistics course and we had to get this really fancy calculator.
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:27.600
And the first line on the syllabus said that the professor was not there to show us how to use the calculator.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.879
Oh my goodness, I was like lost trying to figure out, you know, second function, third function on the calculator, you know.
00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:48.639
So that calculator presented such a cognitive load to me that I uh, you know, that was a challenge that, you know, um I didn't really get, I don't think I really picked up the other content, you know, because I was figuring out how to use the tool that was given um to achieve that content.
00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.720
So we have we have to kind of think through those things.
00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:56.480
And you bring up a great point of the technology we're using, you know, and how how is this is the student prepared?
00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:01.360
Um do they have the necessary knowledge to just interact with that technology that we're using?
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:03.360
And that's not a learning goal, right?
00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:10.319
Um, so we need to make sure that we're we're building it in a way and designing in a way that allows a learner to be able to do that.
00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:11.839
Right.
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:12.879
That's so true.
00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:20.079
So that way they're not spending time learning the technology instead of learning the content that they need to learn and getting frustrated.
00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:21.439
Yeah, that's so true.
00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.439
That kind of segues into the the next question too, because it has a little bit of that with the technology in there.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:39.279
So, as we know, adult learners often bring different experiences, responsibilities, learning preferences, and even technology comfort levels into the training environment and the learning environment as well.
00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:44.399
So, how can multimodal techniques help meet those varied needs that the learners have?
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:56.800
Yeah, so you know, it I like to start with maybe this one and talk about like the universal design for learning, you know, that talks about providing multiple means of representation, you know, multiple means of assessment.
00:05:56.959 --> 00:06:03.360
So it gives some student agency or some learner agency into how they navigate uh to achieve a learning goal.
00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:13.519
Now, that doesn't mean that you're developing like uh, you know, you know, five different pathways or five different learners within your um you know your cohort, but you're you're you're setting up things.
00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:18.800
An example, if we're providing uh a video, but we also provide the transcript.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:26.399
So someone that maybe can't watch the video or the videos just you know, they're they have trouble with that, they can just download or look at and read through the transcript, right?
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.680
It just gives them another means of getting that information.
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:34.480
Um and on top of that, we talk about designing for accessibility.
00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:41.199
And if you design for accessibility, you're not just designing for the people that need it, you're designing for everyone.
00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:43.439
Uh giving example with the video again.
00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:48.959
If you make sure your videos are all captioned and they're captioned well, you're actually helping everybody.
00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:59.519
There may be somebody that the only time they can do their content or look through their content, they're in a loud room or a busy room and they can't have the volume or they don't have headphones.
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:01.040
So now they can just use the captioning.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:01.680
You just help them.
00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:07.920
They don't necessarily need the captioning for an accessibility purpose, but having them help them get that content.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:16.480
And so again, we um I don't know if I can say it enough, but you know, we we design for accessibility for the people that need it, but we when we do that, we design for everybody.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:18.480
Um those things that help everyone.
00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.600
You know, I I like to use the example too of the magnifier, right?
00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:29.519
Um you know, you know, can you if you magnify what you're the course you're on and you zoom in on it, will a learner know where they're at?
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:35.920
Is there enough cues or clues so they know exactly where they are in the content so they know how to navigate through it, right?
00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:36.879
Um that's for everyone.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:44.160
I know for me, because I make everything big now because I'm getting older and you know, trying to see small um font is a little, so I zoom in.
00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:46.720
Um, so again, those type of things.
00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:51.839
Um, you know, we could talk about again in the previous question we kind of talked about cognitive load, right?
00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.240
Trying to reduce that intrinsic cognitive load.
00:07:54.399 --> 00:08:00.079
Think about where maybe you got a fairly complex or dense text.
00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:05.040
Well, what if you paired that with maybe a concept map, image, or infographic?
00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.360
Right now you're you're trying, you're helping the student navigate that content.
00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:19.600
You know, so um another great way in the adult space is to make the connections directly to a real world event or activity.
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:24.399
Uh and if and if you're in a workspace, you can actually tie that directly to maybe a work task.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.920
And that'll help them navigate um that content.
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:37.919
And if you put it into a scenario, it puts it in kind of like a real world context, and you'll you'll kind of activate that intrinsic motivation um to navigate through the through those.
00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:45.360
Um, you know, I like to say, you know, give give learners some choice on on those tools, but you you can't give them a whole bunch, right?
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.240
Because uh then you're just gonna spend a lot of time just developing all kinds of content.
00:08:48.320 --> 00:09:04.799
But if you can give some limited choice and really think about um when we talk about assessments or how they demonstrate that knowledge, that you're putting it some options there where they're demonstrating that knowledge that that's aligned with the objective and not just how to use the technology.
00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:14.960
Um You know, we could talk about uh one of the popular ones I see all the time is especially in the asynchronous environment, they want the student to do like a briefing or a presentation.
00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:21.919
So they ask the student to record themselves or create a video and then upload that as their proof of product.
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.440
Well, is creating the video a learning objective?
00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:28.399
Because that may be creating a barrier for that student.
00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:35.279
So if you can offer multiple means of achieving that objective for that um that student.
00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:41.600
Now, again, we could caveat with you know, having somebody present is a way to do some AI mitigation, right?
00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:45.759
And that, you know, um they can't have AI just do it for them completely, right?
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.840
Um but they can still have help.
00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.039
Um so you wouldn't want to maybe substitute that with a written paper.
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.399
Um, but maybe it's a live session, right, where they present.
00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:07.759
Um so I mean there's some things that you need to think about that we're not we're not setting up a barrier to a student to accomplishing that uh or show or demonstrating that they understand the content or meeting that objective.
00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:13.519
Um so we just need to be able to offer those different um options for it for a student to achieve.
00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:15.919
Yes, I love that, Dwayne.
00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:22.720
That's that's such a great uh idea to be able to do that, especially when we're able to make it work, right?
00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.159
To where we're able to assess that in those varied ways.
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:27.200
That's really great.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.919
And I love that you brought up the universal design for learning.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:35.679
That's so important because I think a lot of times accessibility is an afterthought, right?
00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.519
And it's after things are done, and then the student has a problem, right?
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:40.559
Or an issue.
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.399
Yeah, that's so true.
00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:43.440
Um yeah.
00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.080
Yeah, one of the things I always see with that is um, especially now the AI, right?
00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:53.519
Um some of these AI tools they can produce some really fantastic images and infographics.
00:10:53.600 --> 00:11:02.080
Um, but if you download that and you put it in your content and it's got a lot of content on it, it's a JPEG or a PNG file, so a screen reader can't read it.
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:10.639
So and unless you put like super detailed alt text, you may have a learner that's using a screen reader that's not getting that content.
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:21.200
So, you know, you might want to think about uh, well, could I build that in another file that is accessible and provide that as a downloadable um infographic or job aid or something, right?
00:11:21.279 --> 00:11:22.559
That is accessible.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.720
Um and then and then we could even tell you like that's gonna help other people, right?
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:31.600
Because now they could they if especially if it's like a job aid, well, I can download it and I have it physically, right?
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:33.919
Um that I could use in my place of work.
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:38.480
You know, so I again I we we kind of got to really think about those things.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:42.399
Um uh, you know, because uh tables are the same way.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:51.600
You know, if you have a uh an image of a table and you put it in your in your learning, uh if someone's just using a screen reader, it's not gonna get any of that.
00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:55.919
Uh it's only gonna read what you put in the alt text, and you can't put all of that data in an alt text.
00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:57.279
It's just too much.
00:11:57.840 --> 00:11:58.159
Right.
00:11:58.320 --> 00:11:59.360
That's so true.
00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:00.080
Wow.
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:11.039
Yeah, that's that's a that's such a great point because I don't think a lot of times instructional designers that aren't familiar with accessibility standards, they may not be familiar with that.
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.240
And yeah, that a screen reader can't can't read that.
00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:14.559
Yeah.
00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:15.039
Yeah.
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:23.840
You know, uh the other thing I noticed with some of these AI ones is they're that they really don't, well, at least ones I've seen so far, sometimes the contrast is off too, right?
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:30.159
Where um our accessibility guidance, you have to have a certain ratio of, I think it's 4.5 is the minimum, if I remember right, ratio of contrast.
00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:34.720
Um so but there's some tools out there, like um, I like to use in the Wave tool.
00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:39.679
Um that that can actually, you can it'll assess a web page, but it also has a contrast checker.
00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:44.960
Um some great simple tools to use to you know make sure that you're meeting those accessibility.
00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:51.600
And then there's some simple things like um, have you ever tried to navigate your learning without a mouse?
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:53.519
You know, just use the tab.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:13:01.600
That'll give you an idea if you know if you got some tab order accessibility issues if you just try to tab through it, right?
00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.039
No, no special technology there.
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:08.320
It's just a simple little check to make sure that you um because not everybody's using a mouse.
00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:09.200
Right.
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.879
And it shouldn't be that uh, you know, learners have to request it, right?
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.480
They shouldn't run into a problem.
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.519
It should be something where we're not doing it afterwards.
00:13:17.679 --> 00:13:19.200
It's built into the process, right?
00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:21.759
So it's so important.
00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.240
And you kind of did touch on these a little bit, Dwayne.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:35.120
Um are there any other practical examples of multimodal strategies educators or instructional designers like you and I can use without overwhelming themselves or their learners?
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:44.879
Yeah, and again, we hit on some examples, but you know, one of the one of the most powerful ones, or the one I see a lot of times, you know, is is pair explanation with application.
00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:50.799
So if you're explaining a concept, right, it it's it's a little more abstract.
00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:55.440
And sometimes that's a little harder for a learner to kind of um grasp onto.
00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:58.320
So provide a concrete application.
00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:04.879
That'll help the learner make that connection between the abstract idea and its actual application.
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.200
So that and you can do that with different modes, right?
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:12.879
Maybe, maybe you got a written explanation and you got a diagram or a short video of application, right?
00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.919
And you can kind of pair those modes together.
00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.639
And we could kind of talk a little bit about um dual coding.
00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:27.519
So that dual coding theory basically says that you know, we process information in our brain in different areas depending on how we receive it.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:33.440
So uh, you know, when we read something and when we hear something, it's processed in the same part of the brain.
00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:36.080
But our visual is processed in another part.
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:42.559
So ideally, you want to get multiple parts of the brain activated during the learning that you're going through.
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:48.559
So if you have written text um and then an image, you're hitting two.
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:55.039
You're hitting the the auditory, like auditory controller, auditory loop, uh, and the visual cortex at the same time.
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.000
So you increase the potential chances of retention.
00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:07.519
Where you see this fail a lot is when you have, say, a PowerPoint slide deck that's got text heavy, and the narrator is basically just talking.
00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.039
Well, naturally, a learner is just going to start reading what's on the slide.
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:14.480
And they're trying to listen to what the narrator is saying.
00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:16.399
Well, it's being processed in the same part of the brain.
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.200
It's very difficult.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:18.799
You can even test this for yourself.
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:24.399
Listen to a podcast and read something at the same time and see how much retention you have of either afterwards.
00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:25.200
Um, right?
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:26.639
It'll probably be pretty low.
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:27.039
Right.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:36.399
So that thinking through how that is, um, how we're we're we're pairing those different parts of the brain together to increase chances of retention.
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.639
Uh neuroscientists say, you know, that neurons that fire together wire together, right?
00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:46.080
So if we get different different uh parts of the brain activated, we're increasing chances of retention.
00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:47.840
Notice I say increasing chances.
00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:49.679
It doesn't guarantee anything.
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:57.279
Um, but we're setting the learner up right for success in in capturing that information and retaining that information.
00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.399
Um so that's just a some some couple things, you know.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:08.399
Um just to hit fairly um lightly too, is you know, I like to say use discussions with purpose.
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.799
So you know, to I've seen so many discussion forums.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:18.799
Again, we're talking in kind of the asynchronous adult learning um context here, where it's almost like a mini essay.
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:19.679
Right.
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:26.720
And okay, the discussion questions there to help meet some of that social learning aspects.
00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:35.360
If it's a mini essay and it's got kind of a right or wrong answer, it's probably it's not serving your purpose of that social aspect.
00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:42.080
So when we think about discussions, think about the purpose that it's trying to achieve and then design it that way.
00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:46.720
So you're then you're now aligning that with meeting that um meeting that goal.
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.399
And and make the discussion not a checkbox activity for the student anymore.
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:50.879
Right?
00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:51.120
Right.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:56.080
Um and make it where it's purposeful purposeful and they find value in doing it.
00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:03.519
Uh just as an example, again, in the instructional design field, one of the things that I've done with discussion forums is I make them like labs.
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:12.400
So there's like an experiment that a student will do, and then they show their results and they can have a discussion with their peers on those results.
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:12.799
Right.
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:17.279
And it's very much oriented towards the um instructional design.
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:27.039
So it might be something like, you know, divine like a um experiment with AI to design a mini lesson and see what it comes up and then share your results, right?
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.960
And then have that discussion of how well it did and what it missed and how you can make it better.
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:37.200
And that tends to be more intrinsically valued by the student than doing that kind of traditional discussion form.
00:18:15.169 --> 00:18:15.889
I like that.
00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:17.089
That's great, Dwayne.
00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:17.649
Wow.
00:18:17.889 --> 00:18:19.009
Because I find that too.
00:18:19.169 --> 00:18:22.289
I find that either discussions go one of two ways, right?
00:18:22.369 --> 00:18:29.009
They either are just one question and it's like, is that really getting to the heart of what we're looking for?
00:18:29.490 --> 00:18:33.970
Or they are just like you said, a mini essay, and I'm like, oh, that's way too much.
00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:34.849
Yeah.
00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:35.889
It's yeah.
00:18:36.049 --> 00:18:37.569
I find both ends of the spectrum.
00:18:37.649 --> 00:18:39.490
So it's trying to find that balance, right?
00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:40.129
Of that.
00:18:40.449 --> 00:18:41.089
So yeah.
00:18:41.649 --> 00:18:43.490
Yeah, and and and you want discussion, right?
00:18:43.569 --> 00:18:59.169
You want you want students to actually look at whatever people have posted and you know, and be contribute to that and have a, you know, and and produce that collaboration or that coordination and and produce that because that's what that discussion forum is meant to do in that asynchronous environment, right?
00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:05.409
Is to produce that that so if if you're not setting up to do that, um, you know, again, we're we're setting up a check to box, right?
00:19:05.490 --> 00:19:08.289
How many times have you seen students go in there and I agree with your post?
00:19:08.449 --> 00:19:09.250
It was so great.
00:19:09.409 --> 00:19:12.929
Um, you the learning hasn't happened.
00:19:13.089 --> 00:19:15.169
You're just checking the box to get the credit.
00:19:15.250 --> 00:19:18.209
Um and and that's what not what we that's not the goal.
00:19:18.609 --> 00:19:18.929
Right.
00:19:19.089 --> 00:19:21.490
That's not considered substantive, right?
00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:22.609
Yes.
00:19:23.009 --> 00:19:23.649
Exactly.
00:19:23.889 --> 00:19:24.689
I love that.
00:19:24.929 --> 00:19:29.730
As we know, another important piece is knowing how to use these techniques intentionally.
00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:44.849
What mistakes do you think designers should avoid when adding elements like videos, visuals, like you mentioned, like charts, audio, simulations we talked a little bit about on discussions, or any AI-supported activities into a course?
00:19:44.929 --> 00:19:47.409
Uh feel free to touch on any of those you feel are important.
00:19:47.889 --> 00:19:54.129
Yeah, so you know, what I see a lot of times happens is uh one of a couple things.
00:19:54.289 --> 00:20:05.409
One, we choose a modality because it's the fad, or it's what it's what you know is is seems to be popular, or we overload with a whole bunch of things, like a whole bunch of video, right?
00:20:05.569 --> 00:20:09.329
Um, or I see it because it's kind of like the default.
00:20:09.490 --> 00:20:10.689
This is the way we've always done it.
00:20:10.769 --> 00:20:12.449
This is what we're just gonna do.
00:20:12.609 --> 00:20:20.609
What I would say what you want to do when you're thinking about your modalities is you you have to have some information that you should have gotten in your analysis phase.
00:20:20.849 --> 00:20:23.490
You should, you should know what the learner, right?
00:20:23.569 --> 00:20:32.849
Um, because I could design and build a fantastic 4K high definition learning video that's absolutely fantastic.
00:20:33.009 --> 00:20:38.209
But if my learners don't have the bandwidth to watch it, it doesn't do me any good, right?
00:20:38.449 --> 00:20:41.169
So you have to understand where what your learner has.
00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:43.569
And we touched on it in a previous question already.
00:20:43.649 --> 00:20:46.929
We talked about um just the technology and its use, right?
00:20:47.009 --> 00:20:48.769
That already creates, could create a barrier.
00:20:49.009 --> 00:20:54.849
So we have to know what where the learner's coming from and what they have to work with when we're choosing a modality.
00:20:54.929 --> 00:20:58.849
Um, but we also have to understand the objective we're trying to achieve.
00:20:59.169 --> 00:21:04.529
And we we don't want to have something that doesn't align well with meeting that objective, right?
00:21:04.609 --> 00:21:09.970
And we talked about it different ways where that would, you know, increase cognitive load, right?
00:21:10.129 --> 00:21:11.889
Create frustration, create a barrier.
00:21:12.049 --> 00:21:14.289
We're trying to reduce that as an instructional designer.
00:21:14.369 --> 00:21:19.329
That's gonna be one of, you know, that's our one of our major roles when we're putting content together.
00:21:19.569 --> 00:21:29.490
We also want to not just overload uh, you know, and just keep pile on a bunch of um, you know, all these videos or all this text or all these images.
00:21:29.649 --> 00:21:31.329
It it'll just be too much.
00:21:31.569 --> 00:21:37.409
And you know, you and I have talked where, you know, in education, a lot of times less is more, right?
00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:43.009
We're we're we're putting together what the learner needs to achieve the objective, and that's it.
00:21:43.329 --> 00:21:43.649
Right.
00:21:43.809 --> 00:21:55.809
Um, in the in the most efficient way we can and reduce those barriers and and mitigate the cognitive load, um, you know, just to that germane load, but that that friction we want to happen to create the learning aspects of it.
00:21:55.970 --> 00:22:11.730
Um another thing that I I see a lot, especially in like a lot of the e-learning authoring tools, there's kind of like this unwritten rule that the more times I make a learner click, I'm increasing the chances of retention.
00:22:12.209 --> 00:22:23.970
So it doesn't matter how many clicks you make, or you know, uh how many different uh videos are interacting, it's not automatically evidence that you're gonna get engagement.
00:22:24.769 --> 00:22:33.250
It goes back to looking at it holistically and helping the learner navigate that learning in the most efficient and clear and concise way to get there.
00:22:33.409 --> 00:22:33.730
Right.
00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:43.889
So um it's it's the same thing like, you know, um Just because I add an AI activity doesn't mean I automatically made the learning better.
00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:51.250
It has to be aligned with achieving that learning outcome based upon the target audience, right?
00:22:51.409 --> 00:22:56.929
Understanding where they're coming from to help them get to that new point as we go.
00:22:58.369 --> 00:23:12.449
And the point on technology, and we kind of talked about a little bit, but I would say also adding a technology, are you unintentionally measuring technical confidence and not the outcome you're trying to achieve?
00:23:12.769 --> 00:23:12.929
Right.
00:23:13.329 --> 00:23:14.929
So we have to kind of think about that.
00:23:15.089 --> 00:23:18.289
What are we actually doing and how are we measuring?
00:23:18.849 --> 00:23:22.529
Is it truly aligned with those objectives we're trying to achieve?
00:23:22.689 --> 00:23:26.769
And these are some small things you can do when you go back and look at designs and be like, oh, you know what?
00:23:26.929 --> 00:23:29.089
Maybe I'm doing those, you know, make some small changes.
00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:34.529
I think you'll see some you know outsized outcomes from some of those simple little changes.
00:23:35.009 --> 00:23:35.329
Right.
00:23:35.490 --> 00:23:36.449
That's so true.
00:23:36.769 --> 00:23:44.849
Yeah, I just it's funny because as you mentioned that, Dwayne, it made me think of I I've got this new mini ser it's a 12-episode mini-series.
00:23:45.009 --> 00:23:54.529
I I think I mentioned it um on Saturday when we talked, when we had our um our first part, and it's all about the different myths and instructional design.
00:23:54.689 --> 00:23:59.889
And one of them is about technology automatically thinks things better, right?
00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:00.849
And it doesn't.
00:24:01.169 --> 00:24:06.289
Yeah, you know, you know, so one of the technologies that I'm always combating against is PowerPoint.
00:24:06.449 --> 00:24:08.689
And PowerPoint can be a great tool, right?
00:24:08.769 --> 00:24:12.449
It can be, but PowerPoint is very linear.
00:24:13.009 --> 00:24:21.970
So, you know, if you don't design PowerPoint well for your learning, as soon as you click the next slide, your audience lost whatever was on that previous slide.
00:24:22.369 --> 00:24:24.929
Because our working memory is not long enough, right?
00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.970
So you we really have to think through those again.
00:24:28.129 --> 00:24:33.649
Um what it what how is the technology helping us achieve the learning outcome?
00:24:33.809 --> 00:24:35.250
Or is it just adding?
00:24:35.409 --> 00:24:39.009
Is it adding cognitive load that's getting in the way and creating a barrier?
00:24:39.250 --> 00:24:46.049
You know, um, again, I'm I'm I'm all for using technology to achieve learning outcomes, but we have to do it in the right way.
00:24:46.209 --> 00:24:49.889
Um and again, the the answer always comes down to it depends.
00:24:50.129 --> 00:24:52.529
I need all the I need all the contextual information.
00:24:52.689 --> 00:24:53.809
You know, I need your needs now.
00:24:53.970 --> 00:24:55.250
What is what is the learner, right?
00:24:55.329 --> 00:24:57.009
What are the goals we're trying to achieve?
00:24:57.329 --> 00:25:03.649
And you need all that information to make an informed instructional design decision.
00:25:03.809 --> 00:25:12.129
And on top of that, you have to know that that first decision is probably gonna be close, but you're gonna need to go through cycles, right?
00:25:12.209 --> 00:25:20.689
And you're gonna need to collect data and evaluate and then come back and make edits and changes and and kind of do that cycle before you get to that truly like optimal product.
00:25:23.169 --> 00:25:23.569
Right.
00:25:24.769 --> 00:25:25.329
So true.
00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:26.849
Absolutely.
00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:28.449
Oh, great insights.
00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:29.329
Thank you, Dwayne.
00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:31.809
So onto our bonus question.
00:25:32.049 --> 00:25:39.569
If an educator only had time to improve one part of a course using a multimodal approach, where would you suggest they start?
00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:54.529
So I would say you need to if you don't if you have data on the course, or if you have some like you know, some student kind of insight um on the course, I would look for the area where learners struggled the most.
00:25:54.929 --> 00:25:58.049
Or maybe there's an assessment they didn't do real well.
00:25:58.209 --> 00:26:02.049
Well, where is that assessment aligned with the content and look at that that content?
00:26:02.209 --> 00:26:07.889
So starting to look where the where the where there was some not optimal performance, right?
00:26:07.970 --> 00:26:10.369
Basically, or that maybe they struggled a little bit.
00:26:10.449 --> 00:26:13.889
And that's where I would look to make those small changes and improvements.
00:26:13.970 --> 00:26:21.169
And and you know, my guess is if you if you you can do that and that almost like post-mortem, right?
00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:30.529
Looking at it and going backwards and going, okay, I bet you the content was either probably ambiguous or it was content that was just like all text or something.
00:26:30.609 --> 00:26:39.250
Um and there's probably means to help reduce the complexity or you know, the intrinsic or extraneous load there um to produce some better outcomes.
00:26:39.490 --> 00:26:52.449
I have even found doing this, where I did the, you know, I took the student performance and I went backwards and looked, and I found that the the assessment area was not even covered in the content.
00:26:52.849 --> 00:26:53.569
Oh, wow.
00:26:53.970 --> 00:26:57.809
So so that when you when we that's where I would say start.
00:26:58.529 --> 00:27:11.009
You know, um, if you have data on it, or if you don't, if it's brand new, um use your own experience of like where would I struggle most in this content and look there for your where you're trying to improve.
00:27:11.169 --> 00:27:22.609
And that's I I mean that's kind of a a general response, but uh I I usually find that that that kind of like will highlight areas where you can get the greatest improvement for time spent.
00:27:23.569 --> 00:27:24.369
That's good.
00:27:24.609 --> 00:27:31.250
Especially for instructional designers like myself that work on content that where it's not my expertise, right?
00:27:31.649 --> 00:27:37.889
Where I'm I'm doing counseling curriculum and and social work curriculum, and that's not my expertise.
00:27:38.049 --> 00:27:39.009
So you're right.
00:27:39.169 --> 00:27:42.049
I mean, I I always ask the subject matter experts.
00:27:42.129 --> 00:27:44.289
I'm like, wouldn't would students struggle with this?
00:27:44.369 --> 00:27:46.849
Would they understand this coming into this course?
00:27:47.009 --> 00:27:49.009
What did what have they had beforehand, right?
00:27:49.089 --> 00:27:50.929
So yeah, I think that's so important.
00:27:51.569 --> 00:27:57.329
Yeah, you know, it's the um it the one of the examples I like to use is is is the math teacher, right?
00:27:57.409 --> 00:28:01.490
Um the the math teacher could be an expert in mathematics.
00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:06.529
But in order to be a good teacher, you also have to know where students are going to most likely make mistakes.
00:28:06.769 --> 00:28:14.289
That's another kind of set of knowledge and skill set that would make you a good math teacher on top of just the math skills themselves, right?
00:28:14.769 --> 00:28:15.169
Right.
00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:16.289
So true.
00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:20.129
And that's one of the it's kind of uh one of the other myths I talk about.
00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:35.730
I did the recording yesterday was that good teaching does not equal instructional design, good instructional design because you know, teachers do bring certain skill sets, but that doesn't automatically make them good instructional designers because what we do is different.
00:28:35.889 --> 00:28:39.250
So uh being able to have that is is good.
00:28:39.569 --> 00:28:49.409
And and in that that teacher, one of the skill sets, you know, when you're in the classroom is understanding that that your students and bu bringing the content to them, right?
00:28:49.569 --> 00:28:52.609
To where they it where it's just enough to to challenge them.
00:28:52.849 --> 00:29:03.250
Um you know, example from my my military days, we we were teaching um uh military oper orders, uh so operations orders, how to write an operation order, basically, right?
00:29:03.329 --> 00:29:04.769
Uh pretty boring subject.
00:29:05.490 --> 00:29:16.129
Well, we had a captain that was in there that was um really great at it, but these were like brand new, you know, they had no idea what an operation order was on top of that.
00:29:16.209 --> 00:29:20.929
And the captain went in there just like telling them all these details, all the great, it was fantastic, great stuff.
00:29:21.169 --> 00:29:25.009
But the students really didn't learn anything because it was so far above them.
00:29:25.169 --> 00:29:31.569
Um I watched another individual went in there and he started talking about how to plan a vacation.
00:29:31.809 --> 00:29:33.490
And the students are like getting it.
00:29:33.649 --> 00:29:40.529
And then what he did is he translated each of those steps for planning a vacation to writing an operation order, and the students got it.
00:29:41.409 --> 00:29:47.329
You know, so the the the the design of the course didn't change in either of those.
00:29:47.569 --> 00:29:52.689
It was how the teacher related that to the audience, and that's a skill, right?
00:29:52.769 --> 00:29:54.209
That has to be developed.
00:29:56.609 --> 00:29:57.409
Absolutely.
00:29:57.569 --> 00:29:59.089
Yep, that's so true.
00:29:59.649 --> 00:30:00.929
Wow, I love that.
00:30:01.329 --> 00:30:12.689
So, Duane, as we wrap up, what advice would you give to instructional designers who want to make their courses more engaging for adult learners while still keeping the learning experience clear and manageable for them?
00:30:13.649 --> 00:30:22.449
And I I think it comes down to making a meaningful activity that's relevant to your audience.
00:30:22.689 --> 00:30:33.009
If you can do that, it it you're you're gonna get that intrinsic motivation to work through and learn that content, you know, and make it clear and concise, right?
00:30:33.169 --> 00:30:41.730
And don't have, you know, don't simply just pile on a bunch of media or more interaction and think that's gonna get you better outcomes.
00:30:41.889 --> 00:30:44.529
It's you're actually gonna have poorer returns, right?
00:30:44.609 --> 00:30:53.809
You have you have to go and look at it and understand the audience, understand the objective you're trying to achieve, and create that pathway um that's meaningful, right?
00:30:53.970 --> 00:30:58.129
Um, how many times have you taken a training that doesn't really relate to anything you do?
00:30:58.689 --> 00:31:05.009
You're not really motivated to, you know, by the time, by the time you're you're done right with that, it's it's already gone, right?
00:31:05.089 --> 00:31:05.809
Because it has no meaning.
00:31:05.970 --> 00:31:07.490
You haven't been able to make any connections.
00:31:07.649 --> 00:31:16.049
Uh I I have this like analogy I like to use, and it it's pretty, it's pretty um general, but you know, as adult learners, we come in with experience, right?
00:31:16.129 --> 00:31:17.889
And we have previous knowledge.
00:31:18.129 --> 00:31:22.049
Well, what you want to do is you want to activate that and then add to it.
00:31:22.209 --> 00:31:24.609
I like to think of it as uh a closet.
00:31:24.769 --> 00:31:29.409
So um an adult learner has a mind, right, that's a closet that already has clothes in it.
00:31:29.649 --> 00:31:34.849
What you want to do is understand what the clothes is there so that you can hang new clothes that match those other clothes, right?
00:31:34.929 --> 00:31:39.649
So now they have that now they have some new understanding or a new outfit, right?
00:31:39.809 --> 00:31:43.409
Um, you know, to that the that's the learning you're trying to achieve.
00:31:43.569 --> 00:31:54.049
So when we think about that, that's how we want to build towards that and not just add a bunch of activity or um you know technology or modalities to it.
00:31:54.369 --> 00:32:00.609
You it there needs to be, you need to answer how is this at helping the the learner achieve the outcome?
00:32:00.769 --> 00:32:03.409
Um and if you can't answer that, you probably don't need it.
00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:04.769
That's true.
00:32:05.009 --> 00:32:05.730
Absolutely.
00:32:05.970 --> 00:32:06.529
Wow.
00:32:06.769 --> 00:32:07.569
This is great.
00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:16.529
Well, Dwayne, thank you once again for joining me and for sharing such practical insights on designing multimodal learning experiences for adult learners.
00:32:16.769 --> 00:32:20.369
I love what you said just now about in this conversation.
00:32:20.609 --> 00:32:25.809
It reminds us that engagement is not about adding more for the sake of just adding more, right?
00:32:26.129 --> 00:32:31.329
It's about making thoughtful choices that help learners connect with the content in meaningful ways.
00:32:31.569 --> 00:32:39.569
And part three of the mini series, we'll take a closer look at adult learning principles and how they can help us design more effective educational experiences.
00:32:39.809 --> 00:32:45.169
So once again, Dwayne, for anyone who wants to keep learning from you, what's the best place to follow you or connect?
00:32:45.889 --> 00:32:46.929
So I'm on LinkedIn.
00:32:47.009 --> 00:32:50.049
Uh you can always shoot me messages there or just send me an email.
00:32:50.129 --> 00:32:55.649
Uh more than like uh more than willing to connect with anybody and talk about instructional design or education.
00:32:56.209 --> 00:32:57.649
Yes, I love it too.
00:32:57.809 --> 00:33:01.009
It's always great when you get to connect with other professionals there on LinkedIn.
00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:02.689
It's a great place to do that.
00:33:02.849 --> 00:33:03.569
Absolutely.
00:33:03.970 --> 00:33:04.449
Great.
00:33:04.689 --> 00:33:11.889
Well, I look forward to part three and we'll uh we'll get that and kind of go deeper into the adult learning as I talked about.
00:33:11.970 --> 00:33:16.769
So that'll be exciting because that's one of my passions is adult learning and adult education.
00:33:16.929 --> 00:33:18.609
So look forward to it.
00:33:24.209 --> 00:33:27.970
Thank you for taking some time to listen to this podcast episode today.
00:33:28.209 --> 00:33:30.209
Your support means the world to me.
00:33:30.449 --> 00:33:39.009
If you'd like to help keep the podcast going, you can share it with a friend or colleague, leave a heartfelt review, or offer a monetary contribution.
00:33:39.250 --> 00:33:44.529
Every act of support, big or small, makes a difference, and I'm truly thankful for you.