The Cornell Controversy (with Michael Tracey) | DeProgram with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas

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Good morning. Hope you had a nice weekend. This
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is DeProgram with Ted Rall, Jamarl Thomas.
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It's Tuesday, October 13th, 2026. Thank you so
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much for being here with us. We appreciate you
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and we're glad to be back. We've got a full packed
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hour today. We go just one hour today. We have
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a lot to do. Michael Tracy, the independent journalist
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who made national news in his contrarian coverage
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of the Cornell Jane Doe sex scandal, gangbang,
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rape case, whatever you want to call it. He's
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going to be joining us in just a few minutes.
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So it's a trigger warning, for real, that you
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may find this disturbing. Also... Ilhan Omar,
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the Democratic representative from Minnesota
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and member of the squad, has been raided over
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the weekend. They broke down her door at 4:30
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in the morning. We will get into exactly what
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that's all about. The New York Times did a satellite
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analysis. They found that in southern Lebanon.
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Out of about 60 villages, 48 have been leveled
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by Israel since the April so-called ceasefire.
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And they've been picking and choosing which villages
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to level. And some have been left pretty much
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intact. And you can probably, well, you probably
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can't guess which ones they've chosen, but we'll
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get into that. The Saudis are getting hit hard
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by the Houthis. The Riyadh airport, which looked
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like it was going to reopen, is going to be closed
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at least till the end of the week as another
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airstrike from a ballistic missile hit yesterday.
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Elon Musk has given over $276 million to GOP
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-affiliated groups and his own GOP-affiliated
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super PAC since July. So just in the last three
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months, this makes him the biggest known midterm
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donor. Known is the key word here. There could
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be more. Yeah, we should probably get right to
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it. If you have questions, comments, whatever,
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Michael Tracy will be available to deal with
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those while we're talking to him. We have no
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Robby West today, no producer, so please bear
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with me as I try to get through your questions.
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The Super Chats and the Rumble Rants will get
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my attention first, but I'll try to
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ban the board and read those questions and talk
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to Jamarl and put Michael on and all that
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stuff all at the same time. We'll have Michael
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on starting at about 9:10 Eastern time. That's
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in about six minutes. Okay, a lot to talk about
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here. Hope you're doing well. Tomorrow I'm doing
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okay. I'm doing okay. I was thinking, do you think
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Tracy is right? I read his article on the meeting that took place where they were going
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to ban students from meeting or something to that
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effect. It was like they were banning students
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from coming together, banning kids from meeting.
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You think he's right? Or do you think he's wrong?
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I'm curious. About which aspect? Well, do you
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think it was right for the council to try to
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ban student groups? No. No, never, never. Yeah,
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agree. When I saw it, I was like, they had a
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student council because of the scourge of gang rape.
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And it's like, you have to shut down student
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groups because of this? As if the student groups
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are the issue? Yeah, student groups are not the
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issue here. Yeah, rapists are the issue. Yeah,
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that's the issue. It's like, how is that my fault?
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It's like, I'm going to chess group and you're
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shutting down my chess camp. No, look,
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this is even more insane than when Columbia University
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shut down Jewish Voice for Peace. That was insane. And as a Columbia alum,
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it really still pisses me off. But this is even
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worse than that because you're literally canceling
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all student groups. What's the
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point of college then? The whole point
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of college is to meet and interact with other
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students. Yeah. And me going to chess club is
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not going to affect what do you expect
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to happen? Gang rapists break into the chess
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club room and go all wild. Yeah, we haven't heard
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about that many, much wild. Yeah, right. It's like
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I don't think they're breaking people at student
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groups. No, probably not. Yeah, no, they're not. And this, and I'm not even the architecture
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students group. I don't think that things are
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getting very crazy there. And I don't even know
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if this was a gang rape, right? Yeah, that has
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not yet been established in a court of law, right?
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Yeah, and so it's very wild. Cornell just
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seems to be out of his mind on this. Well, that's,
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look, that's the thing. Cowardice
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is the go-to place for administrators
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of any kind. If you're not a coward,
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you don't last long in those spaces. It's all
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be like, but what if, what if they say things?
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What if the alums and what if this, and what
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if that, and what if there's protests and what
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if, and what if, and what if that's, that's,
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that's how they live their lives. Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, let's go to that story. Okay. Yeah. Let's
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hit something. What do you want to talk? Ilhan
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Omar, maybe? We can do Ilhan. We can do Ilhan.
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OK, let's do Ilhan. OK, so you talked about it
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this morning. You want to tee up what happened?
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Sure. So at five in the morning, the feds raid
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Ilhan Omar's house. And in raiding the house,
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of course, they ransacked the place and everything
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else. And what they are going with is this idea
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of there was something nefarious, something wrong
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in her application for citizenship or for her
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when she effectively got here. And so. They have
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a, quote, wide ranging investigation, unquote,
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in the way that the papers recounted, even though
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they weren't necessarily clear on the boundaries
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of that particular investigation. It's also very
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strange that weeks before the election, this
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is taking place. And obviously, the Trump administration
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has been going after Ilhan Omar, claiming that
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sex with her brother or claiming that there was
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something nefarious in regards to her immigration
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papers, meaning these were the things that were
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effectively floating out there in order to justify
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them going after her. But they're claiming that
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there was some kind of immigration faux pas that
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took place that required them to ransack her
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house at five in the morning. Who knows what
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that would be that would justify that particular
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thing. As you pointed out today, they could have
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sent her a letter. They could have knocked on
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her door. She's a sitting congresswoman. What
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did they think she was going to do? And also
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more to the point, what did they think they were
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going to find in a raid of her house at five
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in the morning? What do you think she's
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hiding? All of her ties, too. All of her ties
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as a secret agent for radical jihad. Yeah. I'm
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saying it's outrageous. I'm saying it's outrageous.
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And they're obviously doing this not because
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there's some kind of secret jihadist camp that
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she's working with or not because there's some
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kind of secret immigration paper that they're
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going to find and they're going to be like, we
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got her. Dead to rights. That if we didn't raid
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her house at five in the morning, she was going
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to hide this immigration document. I don't believe
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in that, right? Yeah, look, let's face
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it. If she had a name like Marie Claire
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O'Malley, and let's just say her case
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of her choice in headgear was different, and
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she just had free-flowing blonde locks,
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I guarantee you that she would not have been
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raided yesterday morning. Agree. Agree. If Melania
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Trump is in this country, and Melania Trump can
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barely speak English, then maybe we shouldn't
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start with your heart, right? Right. And it does bring up some interesting
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points about how many people have irregularities
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in their documents. I wouldn't be surprised if
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it's quite a few. And I don't even know. That's kind of a feature not
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a bug. When you fill out a form, what
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the answer should be. And if you feel
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like you can get away with it, you tend to do
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that. We have a comment here from Dead Meme Club.
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Thanks so much for the donation, $20. Absolutely
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astonishing that oil prices haven't exploded.
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We need more power than ever for data centers.
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And we have the least amount of oil available
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in reserves since the 1970s. It is astonishing.
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I used to work on Wall Street. And
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I was used to the markets reacting on a hair
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trigger. And this was in the pre-internet age,
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where you're working on a Quotron machine. It
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was ancient, a little LED display. Here,
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you have the information is incredibly available
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quickly. We know exactly what's going on. If
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I were an oil futures trader, I'd be going crazy.
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I don't know. No, you're right. You would
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think it would be much higher than what it is.
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It makes no sense. Blew up in overfill yesterday.
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Yeah, Dead Man Club is totally right. Michael,
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thank you so much for joining us. We see you
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backstage. Need you to click both the video camera
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and the mic so that we can see and hear you,
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and then we'll bring you right on. It's just,
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there we go. All right, we see him. And then
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let's just go ahead and bring him on. Without
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further ado, I'll take out the, all right. Good
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morning, Michael Tracy. Thank you so much for
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joining us here on DeProgram. How are you
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doing? Good morning. What's going on, man? How's
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it going this morning? Not much. Hard to say
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yet because I woke up very recently, but we'll
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see. The day is young. Okay, so tell us a little
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bit about, for people who have not been
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following this, well, everybody's been following
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the Cornell rape allegations. You've been covering
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this. You went up to Ithaca to poke around. You're
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an independent journalist and commentator. And
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you've gotten quite a bit of notoriety in the
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corporate press in the last week, most notably,
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I think, for publishing online the Jane Doe's
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real name. And then you thought better of it
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and you took it back down. And I want to ask
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you about that. But if you could just sort of
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tell us, and Jamarl and I will alternate back
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and forth on questions, but if you can just sort
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of tell us, what's your interest in this case
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and what's your take generally? Why were you
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interested in this? Why did you go? What did
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you find out? And what do you think happened?
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Well, it's not so much that I thought better
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of the wisdom of publishing the name. The name
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and the identity of the claimant that I reported
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was accurate. I spent three or four days journalistically
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verifying who this was. So it wasn't a matter
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of the accuracy of the reporting being in question.
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No, I didn't mean to imply that. Yeah, just to
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clarify, just to clarify. It was simply that
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I didn't necessarily want my website, right,
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which to be the only place on the internet
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with any media or journalism adjacency that people
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could log on to to ogle at this person, right?
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Because I felt that it was much more prudent
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to keep the attention trained on what I regard
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to be her huckster lawyers and this racket that
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they run, along with many other plaintiff's attorneys
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and firms who really inflict all this kind of
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hysteria on the public through these sleazy
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methods that are not really well understood because
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the media provides cover for them. Look
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what the New York Times ran a piece recently
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and they're one of the organizations
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on a crusade against me now. Or they're dogging. You might have to spend hours on
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the phone with them over the weekend. Who the
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hell knows what they're going to spit out soon.
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But look at it, okay. What's that? Media
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clusterfucks are so much fun. Yeah. They lauded,
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okay, and others are lauding the Cornell Daily
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Sun, which is the student newspaper at Cornell,
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right? Supposedly according to Julie K. Brown
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and people, the foremost Epstein journalists
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supposedly in the U.S., these kids at Cornell
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are, they give us hope for the future
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because of their intrepid, dogged journalism.
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And what did they do? They sat around and waited
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for this lawyer, Thomas Gufra, to file a lawsuit
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on September 16th, and then a couple days later
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they published an article repeating the claims
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of the lawsuit, taking them at face value, and
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posting and publishing the names of the seven
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defendants as though it was some brave act of
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journalism. And now they're getting showered
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with plaudits for this from the New York Times
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and from Julie K. Brown because Julie K. Brown
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did the same thing over the course of the supposedly
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landmark Epstein journalism that she just got
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a fake Pulitzer for earlier this year. The Pulitzer
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Committee invented a fake award, literally, to
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give her in 2026 relating to articles that she
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published in 2018 because she effectively did
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the same thing. She would take material from
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profit-seeking plaintiff's attorneys who have
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a strategic self-interest in pumping out the
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most salacious, lurid, graphic claims into the
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public arena through the media so that they can
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gin up support for their intended litigation
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goal, which is to extract the maximum settlement
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monies from whoever. They're targeting individually
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or institutionally. So this is a practice that
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I think needs to have more attention brought
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to it for the damage that it does constantly
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and the havoc it wreaks. And this Cornell thing
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is the latest example. So in publishing the name,
00:14:17.850 --> 00:14:24.649
I saw the primary utility of that as journalistically
00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:27.950
contesting this idea that the media is just going
00:14:27.950 --> 00:14:34.440
to enable or abet the strategies of these totally
00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:39.240
unscrupulous profit-seeking lawyer syndicates
00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.399
like Thomas Gufra, who just got done attempting
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.740
the same sort of thing with Sean Diddy Combs,
00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.200
where the presiding judges rebuked him over and
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.179
over again for false claims he threw in there
00:14:49.179 --> 00:14:51.559
to get in on a feeding frenzy after Diddy was
00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:54.600
indicted in 2024. And this guy Gufra demanded,
00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:58.679
likewise, anonymity for his three male clients
00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:01.299
who he was bringing lawsuits on behalf of who
00:15:01.299 --> 00:15:03.860
were alleging some sort of rape by Diddy. Okay.
00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.220
And then, mysteriously enough, Diddy
00:15:06.220 --> 00:15:08.059
goes on to criminal trial, not long thereafter.
00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:10.519
And none of these guys, none of these clients
00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:12.759
represented by this guy Gufra are involved, even
00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.440
involved in the trial. And the judge, the judge
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:17.960
denies that they can be kept permanently anonymized.
00:15:18.019 --> 00:15:19.840
So I guess they've been judicially doxed by
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:23.799
federal judges. So I'm sorry, I
00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.820
just want a little, just to put a fine point
00:15:26.820 --> 00:15:30.720
on it. So am I, correct me if I'm wrong, is
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:34.120
your take basically if the guys
00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.620
can be doxed, it's not fair for the accuser not
00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:41.460
to also be publicized and to remain anonymous?
00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:44.279
Is that basically it? And then the other thing
00:15:44.279 --> 00:15:47.220
is I want to be, if you can just go on the record,
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:52.370
do you think she's lying? I wouldn't say it's
00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:55.570
an eye for an eye in terms of my
00:15:55.570 --> 00:15:59.110
view as to the justifiability of publishing the
00:16:00.580 --> 00:16:02.539
claimant's name or the plaintiff in this litigation,
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:06.000
right? Two wrongs don't make a right.
00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:07.600
I don't think the lawsuit ever should have been,
00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:10.519
I'm highly, highly, highly doubtful
00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:11.659
that this lawsuit ever should have been brought
00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:14.299
in the first place, right? Why? Do you
00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:15.919
think it's all? Because it's falling apart upon
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:18.899
scrutiny. Obviously they put, this is
00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:20.659
part of the tactic, right, that I'm trying to
00:16:20.659 --> 00:16:24.580
contest, the lawyer, the civil lawyer tactic,
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.860
where obviously they throw out a narrative that
00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:30.960
seems utterly salacious that seems utterly shocking
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.639
that gets everybody in a frenzy that sends social
00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.159
media into an uproar that gets the media
00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.950
enraptured and now as you know
00:16:39.950 --> 00:16:42.990
day after day after day we get more and more
00:16:42.990 --> 00:16:45.370
countervailing information that shows the incredible
00:16:45.370 --> 00:16:47.710
dubiousness and unsupportability of the initial
00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:49.970
narrative that was presented in the civil complaint
00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:51.509
but people take that's the thing journalists
00:16:51.509 --> 00:16:54.450
take it at face value. People on the ordinary
00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:57.690
people, so journalists are the most indicted
00:16:57.690 --> 00:16:59.929
by taking it at face value. Ordinary people don't
00:16:59.929 --> 00:17:02.370
really know better by and large. They don't really
00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:03.990
know a whole lot about the court system or the
00:17:03.990 --> 00:17:06.569
tactics of profit-seeking plaintiff's attorneys,
00:17:06.569 --> 00:17:09.369
right? So if they see something in a court, an
00:17:09.369 --> 00:17:11.430
official looking court document, they assume they're
00:17:11.430 --> 00:17:13.690
it must be reflective of the truth which
00:17:13.690 --> 00:17:15.710
it most certainly is not. Just look at
00:17:15.710 --> 00:17:18.210
what this same lawyer got done doing with Sean
00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:21.210
Diddy Combs. Please look. He that was been rebuked
00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:23.309
over and over again for putting in false claims
00:17:23.309 --> 00:17:27.650
and speciously demand that his clients be anonymized.
00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:29.390
So I'm not saying just because they named the
00:17:29.390 --> 00:17:31.569
seven in the defendants that therefore she ought
00:17:31.569 --> 00:17:34.190
to be named, although it would seem like basic
00:17:34.190 --> 00:17:37.910
fairness and parity that in the United States,
00:17:38.009 --> 00:17:40.130
there is a fundamental right to confront
00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:42.269
your accuser. Right. And not just in the court
00:17:42.269 --> 00:17:43.930
of law. This has been held by federal
00:17:43.930 --> 00:17:47.569
judges that when litigation spills out into the
00:17:47.569 --> 00:17:49.829
public, right, in the media, then,
00:17:49.829 --> 00:17:53.930
there is a way in which that the claims are being
00:17:53.930 --> 00:17:57.410
litigated in the public domain. Right. So the
00:17:57.410 --> 00:18:00.710
idea that there's that the that a similar aged
00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:03.670
person, right, who's making a claim against,
00:18:03.829 --> 00:18:07.089
against her peers effectively ought
00:18:07.190 --> 00:18:10.700
to just be presumptively anonymized. No matter
00:18:10.700 --> 00:18:13.000
the veracity of the allegations, no matter any
00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:14.339
countervailing evidence, it just doesn't make
00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:17.140
sense. It's a matter, it's a dogma that the journalists.
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.200
Sorry, Jamarl, I have to just, I just have to,
00:18:19.299 --> 00:18:21.720
I just have to follow up on this. So,
00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:24.420
okay, I get that. No, I don't think she's lying
00:18:24.420 --> 00:18:26.700
so much. I can explain that. Okay, well,
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:28.940
I do want to, I definitely want to hear you address
00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:33.619
that. But okay, so when I read your online,
00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:36.460
you said when you decided to take her name down.
00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:39.630
And that raised two questions for me. First of
00:18:39.630 --> 00:18:42.410
all, why did you change your mind about and decide
00:18:42.410 --> 00:18:44.789
to take it down? And secondly, what's the point
00:18:44.789 --> 00:18:46.910
of it, given that it's the Internet and once
00:18:46.910 --> 00:18:49.089
it's been up there, it's out? Because I didn't
00:18:49.089 --> 00:18:53.609
want, because look, it was a, I'll admit,
00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:55.230
sorry, there's a fly I'm trying to kill, it's
00:18:55.230 --> 00:18:59.329
driving me crazy. There was a, it was an anomalous
00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:04.150
decision, I'll freely acknowledge, for a very
00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:07.690
in a very anomalous situation. Okay. I had just
00:19:07.690 --> 00:19:10.859
been the subject of the entire internet bearing
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:13.599
down on me pretty much, with thousands
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:16.240
of women on TikTok and Instagram making videos
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.619
addressing me by name and calling up my
00:19:18.619 --> 00:19:21.519
father and sending suspicious packages to the
00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.119
house that I haven't lived in in years in New
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:28.059
Jersey. Okay. So I didn't want, I made
00:19:28.059 --> 00:19:29.720
the decision. You were feeling some sympathy
00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:34.309
for her? No, I made the decision that I don't
00:19:34.309 --> 00:19:39.430
even be seen as potentially encouraging, which
00:19:39.430 --> 00:19:41.589
I never did, but even potentially encouraging
00:19:41.589 --> 00:19:43.789
anybody to try to get retribution on my
00:19:43.789 --> 00:19:45.950
behalf against her or anything like this. But
00:19:45.950 --> 00:19:47.769
there's no take backs, right? Once you
00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:49.730
once you put there's no take backs, right? Once it's out there. Well, sure. But
00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:54.109
the name was already out there. If
00:19:54.109 --> 00:19:55.910
you want to talk about doxing or publishing the
00:19:55.910 --> 00:19:59.660
names, her lawyer is Doxter. I never posted her
00:19:59.660 --> 00:20:01.740
address. I never did anything that's reminiscent
00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.680
of doxing. I never said I was going to publish
00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.089
her. Your home address, phone number, social
00:20:08.089 --> 00:20:10.589
security number, email address. OK, but once
00:20:10.589 --> 00:20:14.210
the name is simply identifying the it's not doxing,
00:20:14.230 --> 00:20:17.230
it's not inherently malicious. OK, to identify
00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:20.490
the litigant in a court action. OK, that's a
00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:23.230
matter of that's by definition in the
00:20:23.230 --> 00:20:25.309
public domain. It's having all these downstream
00:20:25.309 --> 00:20:27.750
reverberations. The governor of New York came
00:20:27.750 --> 00:20:31.559
out based on the allegations in the
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:33.619
civil complaint and demanded an overhaul of the
00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:36.160
New York state criminal code around sexual assault.
00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:38.480
They appointed one of the most unethical
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.799
people in the unethical public officials in
00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.980
the entire country with the possible
00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:45.500
exception of Donald Trump, Letitia James as the
00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:49.579
special prosecutor to supersede the D.A.
00:20:49.579 --> 00:20:53.900
in Tompkins County. AOC waltzed
00:20:53.900 --> 00:20:56.720
out in Ithaca the week that the day or this
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:00.390
broke basically. They're summarily declaring that
00:21:00.390 --> 00:21:03.390
these seven were guilty of drugging and gang
00:21:03.390 --> 00:21:06.809
raping. So you had politicians joining in the
00:21:06.809 --> 00:21:09.609
frenzy and so forth. Obviously, it was a matter
00:21:09.609 --> 00:21:11.190
of public interest. It was like a private dispute
00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:15.230
at that point. It's having society-wide effects.
00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:22.890
So at the same time, I reasoned that once my
00:21:22.890 --> 00:21:25.740
primary objective had been achieved journalistically
00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:29.539
meaning not just meekly accepting that the media
00:21:29.539 --> 00:21:31.660
is going to as a matter of this trauma-informed
00:21:31.660 --> 00:21:36.150
victim ideology thing permanently and not anonymize
00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:38.750
anyone who can ever make any kind of claim of
00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:41.829
sexual victimization and in so doing aid and
00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:45.009
abet the sleazy profit-seeking tactics of these
00:21:45.009 --> 00:21:48.400
plaintiff lawyer cabals. I that had been once
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.680
I had published the name, it was out
00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.940
there. It was achieved that then I thought
00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:57.259
the point has been made such that given and given
00:21:57.259 --> 00:22:00.839
the intense vitriol around this. I
00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.660
don't necessarily want my Substack to be the
00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:06.279
landing page of people who have a limited amount
00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:09.500
of time. So Jamarl can go and then an ogle at
00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:12.200
her. OK, so we want to get to the rationale,
00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:14.240
but that was the rationale. We want to get to
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:16.440
everything. Jamarl, please go ahead. Michael,
00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:18.039
it sounds like you've been to public pressure.
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:21.640
I'm just saying. No, I didn't. I didn't.
00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.640
So you think I'm lying about the rationale?
00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:25.819
Why would I lie? No, no, no. I don't think you're
00:22:25.819 --> 00:22:27.259
lying about the rationale. I think you're telling
00:22:27.259 --> 00:22:30.000
the truth. Okay. I think everything you've said
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.160
has been true. So you think I'm capitulating
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:36.460
to a mob? Have you known me to really do that?
00:22:38.299 --> 00:22:41.420
No, but okay, fair enough. Fair enough. Fair
00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:42.500
enough. I'm not going to push on that point.
00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:44.759
The only way that I bent to public pressure
00:22:44.759 --> 00:22:46.559
is if I'm lying about the rationale.
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.640
The rationale is what I sincerely believe. I
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.160
will show you the text message that I
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.539
sent her before I published it, where I repeated
00:22:53.539 --> 00:22:55.759
this even before there was a public pressure
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.940
to bend to. OK, my intent was to not to necessarily
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:02.039
focus excessively on her. She was she
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:04.140
was 20 years old when this happened. I don't
00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:06.480
want I wouldn't like for this to define the rest
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.380
of her life necessarily. But at the same time,
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.279
you got to weigh competing considerations. Right.
00:23:10.769 --> 00:23:12.109
On the one hand, it's in the public interest
00:23:12.109 --> 00:23:14.589
not to just acquiesce to the sleazy huckster
00:23:14.589 --> 00:23:19.210
lawyer tactic of reflexive anonymization. On
00:23:19.210 --> 00:23:21.470
the other hand, she's 20 years old. She might
00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:23.410
not fully grasp what she's gotten herself into.
00:23:23.609 --> 00:23:25.890
This lawyer, I think, is much more primarily
00:23:25.890 --> 00:23:28.150
responsible for the fiasco that's been unleashed.
00:23:28.529 --> 00:23:31.349
So that's what I wanted to keep the focus on.
00:23:31.509 --> 00:23:33.230
But in order to keep the focus on that, you do
00:23:33.230 --> 00:23:35.829
have to de-anonymize the client and not legitimate
00:23:35.829 --> 00:23:37.829
the tactic, right? So again, you have to weigh
00:23:37.829 --> 00:23:39.910
competing factors. So this is what I communicated
00:23:39.910 --> 00:23:43.569
to her. Okay, so if you think I'm lying about
00:23:43.569 --> 00:23:46.190
the rationale, I have proof that I'm not because
00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:48.609
this is what I believe. Just to be clear, I don't
00:23:48.609 --> 00:23:50.650
think you're lying. How did I bend to public
00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:54.309
pressure? Because, even, okay, if we're
00:23:54.309 --> 00:23:56.210
going to get into it, let's get into it. When
00:23:56.210 --> 00:23:58.130
you first, when Ted asked you that question,
00:23:58.230 --> 00:24:00.329
the first thing you said was all of these people
00:24:00.329 --> 00:24:03.190
have been doing so and forth. That sounds like
00:24:03.190 --> 00:24:07.220
public pressure, public sentiment. You've been
00:24:07.220 --> 00:24:09.099
in the internet game long enough to know that
00:24:09.099 --> 00:24:10.380
the moment that you put a name out, it's out
00:24:10.380 --> 00:24:13.420
forever. Even if you take it back, it's out forever.
00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:18.279
I know. Okay, so I'm not insane, right? It seemed
00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:20.880
like it was a huge amount of public pressure
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:23.819
that was being applied to you. You were saying
00:24:23.819 --> 00:24:25.700
people came up to your dad's house. They were
00:24:25.700 --> 00:24:27.900
sending stuff on anonymous packages. I know,
00:24:27.980 --> 00:24:30.539
but I did it anyway. That didn't stop me from
00:24:30.539 --> 00:24:33.920
publishing it. True. I guess I'm just making
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.660
a point of saying it sounded like public pressure.
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:37.380
That didn't stop me from going to Ithaca and
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:41.150
calling on the mayor to resign. So what public
00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:43.329
pressure am I about? Yeah. There was
00:24:43.329 --> 00:24:45.390
an attack. The whole point of the I am Jane Doe
00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:48.130
movement that was launched apparently in reaction
00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:51.750
to me, OK, was to supposedly confuse or disrupt
00:24:51.750 --> 00:24:54.829
my attempts to identify the real Jane Doe, because
00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:56.950
the idea was you're going to have all these women
00:24:56.950 --> 00:24:59.910
saying I'm Jane Doe. Hey, Michael Tracy, I am
00:24:59.910 --> 00:25:03.789
Jane Doe. So that would somehow inhibit
00:25:03.789 --> 00:25:06.289
my ability to figure out the real Jane Doe. Will
00:25:06.289 --> 00:25:08.410
the real Jane Doe please stand up? Well, it didn't
00:25:08.410 --> 00:25:10.529
work, okay? So I figured out the real Jane Doe,
00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:13.089
but that was the logic behind those I am Jane
00:25:13.089 --> 00:25:15.069
Doe videos and everything and the
00:25:15.069 --> 00:25:17.250
threats and the quote-unquote attempted doxing
00:25:17.250 --> 00:25:20.750
of me. So there was an attempt to exert pressure
00:25:20.750 --> 00:25:22.589
on me, but it didn't affect my behavior. Let's
00:25:22.589 --> 00:25:24.549
not belabor the point. Because there's so much
00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:28.150
more to this, right? The thing I wanted to get
00:25:28.150 --> 00:25:31.410
to is just step back just so the audience will
00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:34.650
know. What were her claims and what are the claims
00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:36.710
that you see to be the reason why you make the
00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:37.950
point of saying, well, this case shouldn't have
00:25:37.950 --> 00:25:40.470
even been bought? The moment that the case
00:25:40.470 --> 00:25:44.430
fell apart. So when the lawsuit was first
00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:47.150
filed, OK, it obviously the headline claim is
00:25:47.150 --> 00:25:48.509
the most salacious one. That's why it caused
00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:51.950
such a media frenzy. Gang rape, drugging and
00:25:51.950 --> 00:25:55.369
gang rape among seven gang rapists. That's
00:25:55.369 --> 00:25:57.650
what was alleged in the initial complaint, if
00:25:57.650 --> 00:25:58.890
you take it at face value, which, of course,
00:25:58.890 --> 00:26:02.099
most of the media and social media does. Now,
00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:04.079
if you'll notice, in the initial complaint, we
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.519
don't have all kinds of other exculpatory evidence
00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:09.259
that's in the record that was progressive,
00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.700
first not even reported at all by the media
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.220
organizations that were getting stuff leaked
00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:17.180
to them. So, New York Times, ABC, CBS,
00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:23.039
etc. It's taken TMZ, OK, to actually post the
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.480
full text exchanges that we get the full contents
00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:28.700
of stuff, such as 36 hours after this purported
00:26:28.700 --> 00:26:30.460
gang rape, what they're calling now gang rape.
00:26:32.210 --> 00:26:35.410
She is in communication by text with one of the
00:26:35.410 --> 00:26:40.269
alleged gang raping assailants, characterizing
00:26:40.269 --> 00:26:43.829
what transpired to him directly as a consensual,
00:26:43.829 --> 00:26:46.309
quote, gang bang to quote her. I wish I didn't
00:26:46.309 --> 00:26:48.349
have to quote the word gang bang on a public
00:26:48.349 --> 00:26:51.059
stream at the moment. It's OK. But
00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:53.359
that's her terminology. We have no community
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.500
standards here on the show. She says she enjoyed
00:26:57.500 --> 00:26:59.819
it. She said she wants to meet up with them again,
00:26:59.960 --> 00:27:02.420
that she enjoyed the sexual activity, and she
00:27:02.420 --> 00:27:05.059
wants to engage in additional sexual activity
00:27:05.059 --> 00:27:08.839
with them and also ingest substances with them.
00:27:08.859 --> 00:27:11.200
I'm glad you brought this up. Why not? Because
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:13.500
they're tailoring it to extract settlement money
00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:15.940
from Cornell, from the sorority. Michael, I'm
00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:17.680
glad you brought up this point because there's,
00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.180
and there's other stuff, right? She was
00:27:19.180 --> 00:27:20.920
upset that she didn't get invited to the next
00:27:20.920 --> 00:27:25.200
frat party. But we see this a lot with these
00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:27.960
kinds of cases, and psychologists call this phenomenon
00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.920
fawning, right? And I have a little familiarity
00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:35.119
with it. Basically, a victim will try to normalize,
00:27:35.140 --> 00:27:37.839
will use normalizing language after something
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:39.920
traumatic to be like, we're okay, we're okay.
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:42.400
And it makes it very difficult to convict in
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.579
a court of law. I think this case will be very
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:47.200
difficult, would be difficult to convict in a
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.619
criminal procedure. They might have better luck
00:27:50.619 --> 00:27:53.220
in the civil claim. I don't know. It's just like
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:56.430
with OJ. But it introduces
00:27:56.430 --> 00:28:00.049
reasonable doubt, right? But at the same time,
00:28:00.049 --> 00:28:03.650
it's also not uncommon, right? For a rape
00:28:03.650 --> 00:28:07.289
victim to reach out to her assailant, to her
00:28:07.289 --> 00:28:09.490
rapist later and be like, we're good, right?
00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:12.250
And that doesn't mean she wasn't raped. I'm just
00:28:12.250 --> 00:28:14.890
saying it's not, it's evidence, but it's not
00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:20.289
proof. Can we agree to that? Well, Number one,
00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:22.849
there is an ongoing criminal investigation. The
00:28:22.849 --> 00:28:24.710
governor has appointed a special prosecutor,
00:28:25.029 --> 00:28:29.750
okay? There is a very serious threat that - But
00:28:29.750 --> 00:28:31.549
there wouldn't have been originally, if not for
00:28:31.549 --> 00:28:34.670
this lawsuit. This issue would have died in 2024.
00:28:35.250 --> 00:28:37.789
The prosecutor at the time, back two years ago,
00:28:37.829 --> 00:28:40.269
considered it and assessed that basically there
00:28:40.269 --> 00:28:43.089
wasn't a case to be - I know, but the - The politics
00:28:43.089 --> 00:28:45.930
have changed things here. I know, well - But
00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:49.250
the dissemination, the strategic dissemination
00:28:49.250 --> 00:28:51.529
by these civil lawyers of this civil complaint
00:28:51.529 --> 00:28:55.569
into the media bloodstream then is what stimulated
00:28:55.569 --> 00:28:59.049
the whole public outcry and then stimulated the
00:28:59.049 --> 00:29:01.069
appointment of the special prosecutor. So it's
00:29:01.069 --> 00:29:03.170
all based on this one civil complaint that everybody's
00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:05.930
taking at face value, which is absurd. It's absurd
00:29:05.930 --> 00:29:08.509
to take a profit-seeking – the whole
00:29:08.509 --> 00:29:10.650
point of filing a civil complaint rather than
00:29:10.650 --> 00:29:12.809
pursuing criminal charges, which is what this
00:29:12.809 --> 00:29:13.890
lawyer is supposed to do. There was something
00:29:13.890 --> 00:29:17.809
to it. But two boys, Cornell had a
00:29:17.809 --> 00:29:20.329
Title IX hearing. They expelled two students.
00:29:20.410 --> 00:29:23.329
They disciplined another five. It's obviously something that was deemed by some
00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:32.250
people to be untoward. Which is an ass-covering,
00:29:32.250 --> 00:29:35.329
bureaucratic procedure where,
00:29:35.349 --> 00:29:38.430
who makes those decisions as to what punishments
00:29:38.430 --> 00:29:41.750
to dole out? It's these moronic bureaucrats
00:29:41.750 --> 00:29:44.259
who have no special particular particular
00:29:44.259 --> 00:29:46.259
expertise in anything. They're university
00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:49.319
employees. One of them got caught on a Zoom hearing
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.140
when she was supposed to be evaluating
00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:54.759
the evidence for one of the seven in terms of
00:29:54.759 --> 00:29:57.180
what he was supposedly culpable of and what
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:59.660
a penalty he should receive. She got caught
00:29:59.660 --> 00:30:01.859
driving in her car and browsing the internet
00:30:01.859 --> 00:30:04.640
and stuff. These Title IX proceedings
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:09.900
are a joke. But on the question of oh
00:30:11.210 --> 00:30:13.410
It doesn't mean that somebody hasn't been raped
00:30:13.410 --> 00:30:16.750
if they say that it was consensual for weeks
00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:18.750
afterwards and said that they want to meet up
00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:20.849
with the alleged rapists and that they enjoyed
00:30:20.849 --> 00:30:23.309
the rape. That's what I'm saying. Okay.
00:30:23.309 --> 00:30:25.190
I think at a certain point. It's well documented.
00:30:25.569 --> 00:30:27.470
I don't know what documentation you're
00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:29.269
talking about. There's a whole sort of cottage
00:30:29.269 --> 00:30:33.150
industry of trauma informed stuff where
00:30:33.150 --> 00:30:35.690
it's this therapeutic trauma jargon, I call
00:30:35.690 --> 00:30:38.710
it. Let me give you. All logic and reason can
00:30:38.710 --> 00:30:41.970
be thrown out the window when you appeal to
00:30:41.970 --> 00:30:44.250
the mysterious ways that trauma works. I'm sorry.
00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:46.470
When the recollection was the freshest. Let me
00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:48.630
give you a personal example. When the recollection
00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:51.349
was the freshest, she described it as consensual
00:30:51.349 --> 00:30:53.390
and that she enjoyed it and that she wanted to
00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:57.710
meet up again. You'll have your chance. Let me
00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:00.490
give you a personal example of what I mean. Many
00:31:00.490 --> 00:31:03.589
years ago, regular listeners know about my lawsuit
00:31:03.589 --> 00:31:05.910
against the LA Times. I was roughed up by the
00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:11.369
LAPD. The encounter was recorded. And in the
00:31:11.369 --> 00:31:13.269
recording, you can hear me at the end of it,
00:31:13.329 --> 00:31:18.150
ask the cop who just roughed me up for, is there
00:31:18.150 --> 00:31:19.650
any place around here where I get something to
00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:23.710
eat? Now, at the time, my 10 friends were waiting
00:31:23.710 --> 00:31:25.769
at the restaurant for me. There already was a
00:31:25.769 --> 00:31:28.490
place for me to eat. I didn't need a dining recommendation.
00:31:29.029 --> 00:31:32.410
The LA Times used this as evidence, obviously
00:31:32.410 --> 00:31:34.730
nothing bad had happened to me. It was a friendly,
00:31:34.809 --> 00:31:38.539
polite encounter. And so I was very curious,
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.920
when I listened to it, why on
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:43.180
earth would I have asked? I had my friends waiting
00:31:43.180 --> 00:31:45.500
for me. There was no need. I wasn't
00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:47.160
going to change where we were going to eat. I
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:48.819
was running late because I'd just been detained
00:31:48.819 --> 00:31:51.599
by the cops. And so that's when I learned about
00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:54.779
this fawning behavior that is not uncommon when
00:31:54.779 --> 00:31:58.259
you're the victim of an assailant. And if that
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:01.079
assailant is an ICE officer, whether it's a cop,
00:32:01.339 --> 00:32:04.059
whether it's a frat bro, whatever. Right. So
00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:06.180
I'm just saying it is a well-documented phenomenon.
00:32:06.670 --> 00:32:08.549
Here's where that analogy breaks down. You saying,
00:32:08.750 --> 00:32:11.250
hey, where's a place I can get something to eat
00:32:11.250 --> 00:32:15.269
is not analogous. That would be, that's not you
00:32:15.269 --> 00:32:18.029
saying, hey. It's analogous to, hey, can
00:32:18.029 --> 00:32:20.210
I come over to the party? No, no, the proper
00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:23.970
analogy would you be saying, hey, I enjoyed that
00:32:23.970 --> 00:32:26.309
attack you just launched on me, or that attack
00:32:26.309 --> 00:32:28.650
you just made on me was consensual, or hey, let's
00:32:28.650 --> 00:32:32.420
meet up again for another attack. Okay? Not some
00:32:32.420 --> 00:32:34.079
extraneous comment about where to get something
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:35.680
to eat. I think they're related, but okay. I'm
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:37.839
saying how she characterized the alleged crime
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.569
itself in the immediate aftermath was of its
00:32:41.569 --> 00:32:43.269
consensuality. Well, she did say... She voluntarily
00:32:43.269 --> 00:32:45.269
enthusiastically partook in it. The part that
00:32:45.269 --> 00:32:46.730
jumped out to me is when she... That she wanted
00:32:46.730 --> 00:32:48.230
to do it again. That it was a gang bang, not
00:32:48.230 --> 00:32:50.930
a gang rape. Michael, when she... What information
00:32:50.930 --> 00:32:54.789
are you saying she received? Let me interject
00:32:54.789 --> 00:32:56.930
here, since I'm the co-host of the show here.
00:32:57.349 --> 00:33:00.170
Michael, let me talk here. Explain it to me.
00:33:00.490 --> 00:33:05.369
I'm trying to. Okay. So at one point, and I thought
00:33:05.369 --> 00:33:07.089
this was the phrase that really, I think probably
00:33:07.089 --> 00:33:09.990
we all read this, where she said, she reached
00:33:09.990 --> 00:33:12.390
out to the two guys that she claimed she had
00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:14.990
a consensual encounter with, a threesome, that
00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:17.009
then spread into a non-consensual encounter,
00:33:17.289 --> 00:33:19.670
according to her, with the subsequent five guys.
00:33:19.789 --> 00:33:23.230
And she says, hey, let's do it again sometime,
00:33:23.490 --> 00:33:26.230
but next time with no ketamine and next time
00:33:26.230 --> 00:33:30.880
without all those extra guys. To me, that's
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.619
a really interesting statement that to me appears
00:33:34.619 --> 00:33:37.440
to define her narrative, right? If I'm on
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:42.299
her side of this, her accusation is she's not
00:33:42.299 --> 00:33:44.799
complaining about the first two guys except to
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:47.339
the extent that they went on Snapchat and invited
00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:51.099
all of their buddies to join, right? But
00:33:51.099 --> 00:33:54.559
that's where she's, that's where she flies. But I'm just, I'm trying
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:02.680
to be, I'm trying to keep this together here.
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.059
There's so she said that
00:34:07.059 --> 00:34:09.219
except for the fact that the invitation on Snapchat,
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.659
she was okay with the first two guys, at least
00:34:11.659 --> 00:34:15.519
at the beginning. They're now also accusing of
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.360
gang rape. Yeah, because of the invitation. I
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.440
mean, no. They're accused of being perpetrators
00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:24.699
of gang rape. The lawyer, Gufra, says that at
00:34:24.699 --> 00:34:28.340
no point could she have consented to anything
00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:30.619
from the moment she walked in the house. That's
00:34:30.619 --> 00:34:33.760
their argument now. Yeah, and I think this case
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.239
criminally will depend on how she presented
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.480
in terms of was she visibly intoxicated
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:41.619
so when you ask is she lying right I think that's
00:34:41.619 --> 00:34:43.739
too simple. It's very so what do you think
00:34:43.739 --> 00:34:46.260
is going on here? It's very seldom a black or
00:34:46.260 --> 00:34:48.699
white situation right where somebody's either
00:34:48.699 --> 00:34:51.860
lying or telling the truth. Oftentimes what happens
00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:55.619
is that humans are incredibly impressionable
00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:58.599
and suggestible right and they have an extraordinary
00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.199
ability to convince themselves that things are
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:04.280
true or that a certain narrative or reconstruction
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.900
of past events is true where they might not be
00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:14.480
consciously, they might have been sort of convinced
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:20.119
of a fundamentally inaccurate narrative reinterpretation
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:22.980
of things, but also not be consciously lying.
00:35:23.179 --> 00:35:24.460
They think they could think that they're consciously
00:35:24.460 --> 00:35:26.179
telling the truth. We see this over and
00:35:26.179 --> 00:35:29.000
over again with Epstein stuff, where it's a similar
00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:30.559
reframing, especially if there's a financial
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.960
incentive at play, right? With Epstein, you got
00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:35.219
a billion dollar industry to convince women
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:37.360
who took a luxury vacation to the Caribbean on
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:39.440
a private island that they were sex trafficked
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:41.840
20 years ago. And then if they reframe things,
00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:43.920
they can get millions of dollars in tax-free
00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:46.300
settlement money and they're a trafficking victim
00:35:46.300 --> 00:35:49.400
similarly here when you it seems as the weeks went on
00:35:52.820 --> 00:35:59.190
this rumor spread. It seems
00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:01.150
to me one of the proximate causes of what
00:36:01.150 --> 00:36:04.110
caused all this unpleasantness was that the other
00:36:04.110 --> 00:36:06.750
girls in her sorority were being mean to her,
00:36:06.829 --> 00:36:09.329
and there was nasty rumors spreading.
00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:11.389
Sororities, my God, think of
00:36:11.389 --> 00:36:14.929
the drama there, regardless of a purported gangbang
00:36:14.929 --> 00:36:17.710
situation. It must have been very unpleasant
00:36:17.710 --> 00:36:20.670
for her. And then so, yeah. So you
00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:23.690
think she felt slut-shamed? Yes, she
00:36:23.690 --> 00:36:27.239
said so. But initially she was
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:28.940
lighthearted about it where one of her
00:36:28.940 --> 00:36:32.559
fellow sorority members, sisters or whatever,
00:36:32.780 --> 00:36:36.599
was, I believe, speaking to the Title IX investigator
00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:40.070
and recounted that the day after
00:36:40.070 --> 00:36:46.230
the incident, she said to the alleged victim,
00:36:46.349 --> 00:36:50.269
people are saying that you're a slut
00:36:50.269 --> 00:36:53.219
or something like this. Alleged victim said it's
00:36:53.219 --> 00:36:55.119
true ha ha ha. She was making light of it
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.599
that she was in fact whatever that was
00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:00.159
that was kind of how it was recounted because
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:02.039
she had this whole her mindset was one
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.079
of sexual open-mindedness. She said in one
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:06.900
of the text messages look people shouldn't
00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:08.780
be so uptight about this. It's the kind of thing
00:37:08.780 --> 00:37:11.260
that they did in medieval times or whatever.
00:37:11.260 --> 00:37:13.019
A group sexual encounter right. So she
00:37:13.019 --> 00:37:15.219
was into it at the time but then it caused
00:37:15.219 --> 00:37:17.539
all this gossip and pushback for her embarrassment
00:37:17.539 --> 00:37:19.940
so then yeah and you could see why she would
00:37:19.940 --> 00:37:22.260
then want to reframe things and reinterpret things
00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.510
such that she wanted to sort of restore
00:37:25.510 --> 00:37:27.989
her reputation so that she wasn't somebody
00:37:27.989 --> 00:37:29.630
who just willingly partook in this quote
00:37:29.630 --> 00:37:31.250
gang bang because that's sort of embarrassing
00:37:31.250 --> 00:37:33.570
and it's also embarrassing to walk
00:37:33.570 --> 00:37:35.989
around a college campus and have people snickering
00:37:35.989 --> 00:37:38.130
at you for having done this right. So then there's
00:37:38.130 --> 00:37:41.250
an incentive to then recast things. And now with
00:37:41.250 --> 00:37:45.530
two weeks and then two years later, all of a
00:37:45.530 --> 00:37:47.530
sudden it gets even more dramatically recast
00:37:47.530 --> 00:37:51.150
to a gang, a vicious gang rape where nothing
00:37:51.150 --> 00:37:55.159
was consensual, which is totally implausible.
00:37:55.199 --> 00:37:58.250
So I don't know that she's lying per se. I think
00:37:58.250 --> 00:38:03.030
people can become genuinely convinced of a sort
00:38:03.030 --> 00:38:09.349
of self-interested. Well, I accept. Confirmation
00:38:09.349 --> 00:38:12.389
bias, sort of motivated reasoning, reframing
00:38:12.389 --> 00:38:15.510
of past events such that it's not so much willful
00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:18.329
lying in that they're conscious that they are
00:38:18.329 --> 00:38:20.329
saying something untrue, right? It's more about
00:38:20.329 --> 00:38:28.230
how they've sort of been suggested into an alternate
00:38:28.230 --> 00:38:31.130
understanding of what happened. So it would be
00:38:31.130 --> 00:38:34.369
much easier if it were so simple as lying versus
00:38:34.369 --> 00:38:36.429
truth telling. Right. But unfortunately, there
00:38:36.429 --> 00:38:38.949
are many gray areas in this. Well, if we accept
00:38:38.949 --> 00:38:41.809
your point, right, where it's well, look,
00:38:41.869 --> 00:38:43.869
she sent a text message. She said this.
00:38:43.909 --> 00:38:46.690
Ted kind of has a point. Let's assume for the
00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:48.969
moment that the first two guys was consensual,
00:38:49.070 --> 00:38:53.280
which it sounds like. And then the other people,
00:38:53.340 --> 00:38:55.739
she was unable to consent because she was unconscious.
00:38:56.909 --> 00:39:00.050
That's not by definition rape. Meaning, let's
00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:01.789
say for the moment that the first two that she
00:39:01.789 --> 00:39:04.550
walks in, she's down for the first two. Yes,
00:39:04.630 --> 00:39:06.570
I want to have ketamine. I want to have sex with
00:39:06.570 --> 00:39:09.139
two guys. I want to have some fun. And then the
00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:12.920
two guys on their own invite other guys into
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:14.739
it to have sex with her as she's unconscious.
00:39:15.139 --> 00:39:18.179
By definition, she couldn't acquiesce or she
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:20.880
couldn't agree to the other five guys, right?
00:39:21.340 --> 00:39:24.300
Well, hold on. This is a misunderstanding. And
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:28.880
this is because of the sleazy, cheap tactic of
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.920
the plaintiff's attorneys who kind of at a first
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:34.599
blush impression have people believe that it
00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.099
was seven people perpetrating a gang rape. Not
00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:40.239
all, even all seven are alleged if you read the
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:44.579
granular details of the lawsuit. Yeah. Which,
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:46.480
did AOC read it before she trotted out
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:50.179
in Ithaca and declared them all guilty of drugging
00:39:50.179 --> 00:39:53.239
and gang raping using the platform of her office
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:56.340
to do so? Of course not. Nor did the mayor, who
00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:58.679
I called on to resign for doing this. The mayor
00:39:58.679 --> 00:40:00.679
of Ithaca called the perpetrators. Later today,
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.340
they're holding a rally in Ithaca, where if you
00:40:02.340 --> 00:40:04.179
look at the city website, Ithaca.gov or whatever,
00:40:04.340 --> 00:40:07.260
it says rally for crime victim. Really?
00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.440
Do these people have any fidelity at all?
00:40:09.849 --> 00:40:12.110
Michael, can you please try answering Jamarl's
00:40:12.110 --> 00:40:13.650
question? Because I really want to hear it, too.
00:40:13.769 --> 00:40:15.789
I want to hear the answer. So not all of them
00:40:15.789 --> 00:40:17.889
are even accused of engaging any sexual activity
00:40:17.889 --> 00:40:22.710
with her. OK, so that's another fallacy that
00:40:22.710 --> 00:40:24.570
they strategically spit out there. So people
00:40:24.570 --> 00:40:26.190
would have the most sort of extreme
00:40:26.190 --> 00:40:30.849
conception of what took place. Nor is it alleged
00:40:30.849 --> 00:40:35.889
that the sexual activity that did take place
00:40:35.889 --> 00:40:39.150
happened simultaneously. Okay, let's say that's
00:40:39.150 --> 00:40:41.530
true. First of all, then you have to ask the
00:40:41.530 --> 00:40:46.170
attorney who's out in the media making the case
00:40:46.170 --> 00:40:50.349
on this, why he's arguing that all of the accused
00:40:50.349 --> 00:40:54.449
are gang raped, meaning that every little step
00:40:54.449 --> 00:40:56.369
of sexual contact that was ever made with her
00:40:56.369 --> 00:40:57.989
that night from the moment that she entered the
00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:00.980
house was sexual assault or rape because that's
00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:02.760
what they're claiming right. So they're not
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:04.599
acknowledging a subtlety like you just but
00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.219
what do you think about this? What I think was
00:41:07.219 --> 00:41:11.099
that you if it is let's say hypothetically it
00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:12.619
is the case that she initially consented to the
00:41:12.619 --> 00:41:16.400
first two and not the subsequent
00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:17.900
yeah that's theoretically
00:41:17.900 --> 00:41:19.699
possible but what would that hinge on? That would
00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:22.420
hinge on the contemporaneous evidence. There's
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:24.039
really no contemporaneous evidence including
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:27.099
in her own words and actions that there was a
00:41:27.099 --> 00:41:30.210
lack of consent following the first two at all.
00:41:30.269 --> 00:41:33.929
You know why, how we know that? Because there's
00:41:33.929 --> 00:41:36.829
the text that I quoted. That is evidence.
00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:39.070
No, not necessarily. Not necessarily.
00:41:39.530 --> 00:41:42.530
No, not necessarily. Let's do that again. She's
00:41:42.530 --> 00:41:44.750
saying, she's saying nothing. Let's do that again.
00:41:46.690 --> 00:41:49.030
Let's not do the other thing again. That's evidence.
00:41:49.349 --> 00:41:52.280
She said something to the effect of nothing
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:54.920
illegal happened. I loved her. I really love
00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:57.239
being with you two guys the most. Maybe let's
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:00.260
do it next time, but not have the other anybody
00:42:00.260 --> 00:42:02.960
else come in. That's not necessarily her
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:06.840
declaring that she was raped by any of the subsequent
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.300
people who came in. OK. And in fact, she's exculpating
00:42:10.300 --> 00:42:12.820
the others because she's saying nothing illegal
00:42:12.820 --> 00:42:15.940
happened. I don't know. I don't think
00:42:15.940 --> 00:42:17.920
she's a lawyer or a judge. Right. So she probably
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:21.400
doesn't know if something illegal. What?
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:23.699
Let's use some common sense. A woman doesn't
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:25.380
know she is raped? Look, for what we know so
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:27.460
far, I think that the prosecutor
00:42:27.460 --> 00:42:30.860
probably made the right decision legally not
00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:33.079
to charge criminally at the time because it would
00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:34.699
have been really hard to prove in a court of
00:42:34.699 --> 00:42:37.860
law. What we're talking about here, though, is
00:42:37.860 --> 00:42:40.719
ethically. What do we think happened? And also,
00:42:40.860 --> 00:42:43.420
we're talking about reporting
00:42:43.420 --> 00:42:46.639
and this nature. And basically, why
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:48.880
do you not believe her? And I think we,
00:42:48.900 --> 00:42:51.519
I'll let Jamarl have the last question. It's not
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:52.880
a matter of belief or disbelief. It's a matter
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:56.840
of evaluating the totality of evidence. And yeah,
00:42:57.000 --> 00:42:59.440
in order to do that, we have to evaluate the
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:01.860
claimant who has been strategically anonymized
00:43:01.860 --> 00:43:04.929
by her profit-seeking attorney. Okay so that's
00:43:04.929 --> 00:43:07.309
everybody's assessing the veracity
00:43:07.309 --> 00:43:09.110
or the credibility and the statements of the
00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:10.469
defendants. They were named right off the bat.
00:43:10.469 --> 00:43:12.469
Their addresses were posted right off the bat
00:43:12.469 --> 00:43:14.769
in the court docket right. Their mother's names
00:43:14.769 --> 00:43:17.769
were posted. They were fired from their jobs
00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:20.570
within the first couple days okay or at least
00:43:20.570 --> 00:43:23.929
one or two of them I believe. So that happened
00:43:23.929 --> 00:43:26.429
and so it's not a matter of belief or disbelief.
00:43:26.429 --> 00:43:29.289
It's as a rational assessment
00:43:29.289 --> 00:43:31.250
of the evidence as we can make. It's not that
00:43:31.250 --> 00:43:34.210
I just instinctively disbelieve her. Again I just
00:43:34.210 --> 00:43:36.170
said that I would not be surprised
00:43:36.170 --> 00:43:38.250
if on some level she does currently genuinely
00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:41.969
believe in the veracity in the truth of this
00:43:41.969 --> 00:43:44.030
narrative but then it comes out okay so what
00:43:44.030 --> 00:43:46.530
do you believe if you if you if you want to say
00:43:46.530 --> 00:43:49.650
let's believe her why. We're not going to believe
00:43:49.650 --> 00:43:51.989
what she said when she had the freshest recollection
00:43:51.989 --> 00:43:54.469
within 36 hours, and she called it a consensual
00:43:54.469 --> 00:43:57.190
gangbang. And then anybody who's commenting on
00:43:57.190 --> 00:43:59.150
it, it's not in their jurisdiction, and they
00:43:59.150 --> 00:44:00.829
should mind their own business. And our body,
00:44:00.929 --> 00:44:03.389
our choice. That's what she said. Our body, our
00:44:03.389 --> 00:44:06.170
choice. Now, we didn't know she said that for
00:44:06.170 --> 00:44:09.670
the first two weeks or so because the media is
00:44:09.670 --> 00:44:13.130
all bound up in this, again, trauma-informed
00:44:13.130 --> 00:44:15.849
victim ideology thing where they're against transparency
00:44:15.849 --> 00:44:18.530
and disclosure in this one particular issue and
00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:20.590
selectively leak on behalf of the profit-seeking
00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:23.550
lawyers. But finally, we got it thanks to TMZ,
00:44:23.590 --> 00:44:25.909
and she says, our body, our choice. So why do
00:44:25.909 --> 00:44:28.630
you disbelieve her when she says, our body, our
00:44:28.630 --> 00:44:32.369
choice, 36 hours after the incident? To be fair,
00:44:32.489 --> 00:44:35.309
I don't believe her or disbelieve her. If anything,
00:44:35.550 --> 00:44:38.250
the only thing I know is a gangbang took place.
00:44:39.030 --> 00:44:41.860
That's all I know. Well, she says, but now they
00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:43.760
say gang rape. She initially said gang bang.
00:44:44.019 --> 00:44:45.780
Now they say gang rape when there's money at
00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:49.090
stake. Well, I'm assuming it was a gang bang.
00:44:49.570 --> 00:44:51.809
Now, whether it was entirely consensual all the
00:44:51.809 --> 00:44:54.530
way through, I'm unclear. Because as you point
00:44:54.530 --> 00:44:56.130
out, this hasn't been adjudicated by a court
00:44:56.130 --> 00:44:59.369
of law. Right. That's what needs to happen. Which
00:44:59.369 --> 00:45:01.570
is what needed to happen, right? It needed to
00:45:01.570 --> 00:45:04.550
be adjudicated, not, hey, here's salacious claims.
00:45:05.289 --> 00:45:09.909
And now everybody's kind of unclear in the sense
00:45:09.909 --> 00:45:13.250
that she submitted a three weeks after the initial
00:45:13.250 --> 00:45:17.269
incident a six-page comprehensive sworn statement.
00:45:17.269 --> 00:45:20.190
She signed it. It was submitted okay. She was given
00:45:20.190 --> 00:45:23.639
opportunities to revise it. It's very
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:26.980
it's not that it's not typical really for a potential
00:45:26.980 --> 00:45:30.010
victim to necessarily on her own volition composed
00:45:30.010 --> 00:45:32.929
a very lengthy, meticulous, detailed six-page
00:45:32.929 --> 00:45:35.030
statement going over every conceivable detail
00:45:35.030 --> 00:45:37.489
of what transpired that day before,
00:45:37.489 --> 00:45:40.389
in the afternoon, the night, the day after, et
00:45:40.389 --> 00:45:42.989
cetera. And then that was submitted to the Cornell
00:45:42.989 --> 00:45:45.190
Police and then submitted to the DA. And the
00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:47.269
DA, on the basis of that statement,
00:45:47.309 --> 00:45:52.409
made what was clearly the
00:45:52.409 --> 00:45:56.460
sensible decision in not prosecuted because
00:45:56.460 --> 00:45:58.360
she's giving all this exculpatory information.
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.179
You can't prosecute somebody if the person
00:46:01.179 --> 00:46:04.440
that they allegedly say assaulted or raped
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.980
is over and over again absolving them of
00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:10.199
criminal culpability in their own sworn statement.
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:12.579
It's not like this was coerced out of her
00:46:12.579 --> 00:46:14.480
or she was interrogated. She'd follow she
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:16.619
on her own volition decided to go and proactively
00:46:16.619 --> 00:46:19.019
make this statement exculpating them. Just to
00:46:19.019 --> 00:46:21.139
be clear though just because she did that that
00:46:21.139 --> 00:46:25.480
doesn't necessarily mean that. Look I can tell
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:27.619
you from my own experience and two different
00:46:27.619 --> 00:46:31.800
experiences. In one case, I knew a guy,
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:36.469
him also, he's accused of rape, big splashy headline,
00:46:36.690 --> 00:46:39.130
comes out and huffing the posts. He gets fired
00:46:39.130 --> 00:46:42.469
from his job immediately, not even an investigation,
00:46:42.510 --> 00:46:44.989
just fired from his job immediately. And come
00:46:44.989 --> 00:46:47.530
to find out when people actually get the opportunity
00:46:47.530 --> 00:46:50.869
to talk to her, she makes this point of basically
00:46:50.869 --> 00:46:55.050
saying it was consensual. And then she talked
00:46:55.050 --> 00:46:57.349
to her husband and realized it was rape. In which
00:46:57.349 --> 00:46:59.250
case she called it rape and then they had to
00:46:59.250 --> 00:47:01.449
pull the HuffPo piece when people realized
00:47:01.449 --> 00:47:03.489
it wasn't necessarily rape. She just didn't necessarily
00:47:03.489 --> 00:47:05.590
like the fact that her husband engaged in a particular
00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:09.650
way. So on that side of it true but I can tell
00:47:09.650 --> 00:47:12.369
you from my own personal experience rape as a
00:47:12.369 --> 00:47:15.610
child never said a word about it. Granted
00:47:15.610 --> 00:47:18.510
I didn't exculpate the person who did it. By the
00:47:18.510 --> 00:47:20.250
same token there was still communication between
00:47:20.250 --> 00:47:21.949
family and everything else that I never necessarily
00:47:21.949 --> 00:47:26.510
brought up for hashtag reasons. I'm saying she
00:47:26.510 --> 00:47:29.710
may look at the stuff as her choice, her body,
00:47:29.829 --> 00:47:32.400
et cetera, but she also might not have necessarily
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:36.679
been a boy. She was also an adult. Potential
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:39.000
rape of children I think is a different issue
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:42.820
completely, especially the younger the child
00:47:42.820 --> 00:47:45.440
is. We're talking about same-age adults here,
00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:47.699
okay? I'm just trying to make a basic point that
00:47:47.699 --> 00:47:51.260
she might not have been down with what happened,
00:47:51.340 --> 00:47:53.380
but also might not have wanted to admit it to
00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:55.719
herself of what happened, if that makes sense.
00:47:56.050 --> 00:47:57.869
Okay, well, look, that might be possible,
00:47:58.010 --> 00:48:01.210
but when we get to a situation like that, right,
00:48:01.329 --> 00:48:05.550
then I struggle to understand why everybody deems
00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:08.340
it so fanatically necessary for
00:48:08.340 --> 00:48:10.719
whatever issue a problem might have occurred
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:13.320
right there as something that the criminal justice
00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:15.699
system needs to hash out. That's always a disaster
00:48:15.699 --> 00:48:18.039
it seems to me. Sometimes there are alternate
00:48:18.039 --> 00:48:20.679
alternate conflict resolution mechanisms right
00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.079
especially if some of the harm that she was clearly
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:26.760
experiencing that contributed to why the situation
00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:29.039
unfolded the way that it did in the weeks that
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:31.960
followed was because of the gossip and the chatter
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:34.860
right. Look at her text messages where she's definitely
00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:43.920
expressing disquiet or anguish to the guys about
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:46.780
the rumors that are spreading. And the guys are
00:48:46.780 --> 00:48:48.860
actually pretty empathetic toward her, saying,
00:48:48.960 --> 00:48:50.679
look, we're so sorry. We're trying to stop the
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.460
rumors. We hope you're doing well. Let us know
00:48:52.460 --> 00:48:54.880
if we can do anything. It's a situation that,
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:57.579
I'm sorry, you can imagine some dopey college
00:48:57.579 --> 00:49:01.360
kids of both sexes who are drunken idiots having
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:03.989
to deal with. And maybe the best way to
00:49:03.989 --> 00:49:05.949
deal with it is not to just shunt it out into
00:49:05.949 --> 00:49:07.829
the criminal justice apparatus because we're
00:49:07.829 --> 00:49:09.510
all demanding justice and accountability.
00:49:09.510 --> 00:49:12.309
How come that how come is it how come
00:49:12.309 --> 00:49:15.309
leftists and liberals in particular decide
00:49:15.309 --> 00:49:18.230
a few years ago they're all marching for
00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:22.690
defund the police, abolish the prison state.
00:49:22.690 --> 00:49:25.960
Blah, blah, blah, blah. All these
00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:29.699
basically anti-incarceral, almost quasi-anarchistic
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:32.760
slogans. But then when you come to the area of
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:35.579
sex crime, they're the most punitive,
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:39.800
retribution zealots on Earth. They want to throw
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:42.239
everybody and everybody in prison. They want
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.760
to close the non-existent rape or intoxication
00:49:45.760 --> 00:49:47.760
loophole in New York as if New York State has
00:49:47.760 --> 00:49:49.719
been a hotbed of just state-sanctioned rape
00:49:49.719 --> 00:49:52.940
for decades and make it easier for prosecutors
00:49:52.940 --> 00:49:56.320
to throw people in prison willy-nilly.
00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.320
Explain that to me. Explain how this is the one
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.500
area where everybody's critical faculties and
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:04.199
pre-existing claim to adherence to certain principles
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.639
around criminal justice and the prison state
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:10.280
and so forth just get, I don't know, tossed by
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:12.440
the wayside. It's totally bizarre. You don't
00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:15.280
think there's any other potential way for whatever
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.400
unease or whatever problem that this woman experienced
00:50:19.400 --> 00:50:21.699
in the aftermath of this episode could
00:50:21.699 --> 00:50:23.559
have been addressed. Look at, look at
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:25.800
the whole debacle that's unfolded right now.
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:28.019
Is this the best way to go about handling
00:50:28.019 --> 00:50:31.239
situations like this? Clearly not. Well,
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:34.079
it's the system we have. Michael, thank you so
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.320
much for joining us here on DeProgram. We appreciate
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:40.480
you taking the time and hope you felt like you
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.679
were treated fairly and we will talk to you maybe
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:46.219
later. Okay. All right. Sounds good. All right.
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:49.699
Take care. Bye. Have a good one, man. Okay. So.
00:50:50.820 --> 00:50:52.960
Yeah, I knew that would be spicy, and it was
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:59.110
spicy. I actually agree with him. Tell me. I
00:50:59.110 --> 00:51:00.869
actually agree with him. Look, I guess
00:51:00.869 --> 00:51:02.969
even when we talked about the case before, my
00:51:02.969 --> 00:51:06.659
point of view was always, how do I know what
00:51:06.659 --> 00:51:09.739
actually happened? It sounds like she
00:51:09.739 --> 00:51:14.170
went in. She was probably in incapacity. She
00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:16.010
was drunk. She was already drinking, yeah, before
00:51:16.010 --> 00:51:18.150
she arrived. Yeah, she was already drunk. Basically,
00:51:18.409 --> 00:51:20.750
she just kept drinking and then added drugs to
00:51:20.750 --> 00:51:23.590
the mix. Many of us have been there.
00:51:24.070 --> 00:51:28.210
And you end up having a gangbang. Now the catch
00:51:28.210 --> 00:51:30.650
becomes, okay, was it consensual all the way
00:51:30.650 --> 00:51:32.190
through or whether there were parts of it that
00:51:32.190 --> 00:51:35.210
were consensual? Either way, it's a mess.
00:51:35.610 --> 00:51:38.489
And as a random person sitting outside of it
00:51:38.489 --> 00:51:40.889
looking into it, how do I know what happened?
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:47.159
It's that part. We don't know. We know
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.179
what happened. We just don't know
00:51:49.179 --> 00:51:51.900
what it means right ethically and legally all
00:51:51.900 --> 00:51:54.460
the way through which is the issue because if
00:51:54.460 --> 00:51:57.320
if the story is she was although I have to say
00:51:57.320 --> 00:52:01.980
as a guy myself I think you're an idiot if
00:52:01.980 --> 00:52:05.460
you have sex with someone who is visibly
00:52:05.460 --> 00:52:09.139
drunk or impaired or I don't mean just
00:52:09.139 --> 00:52:13.000
a tad tipsy. If someone's totally
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:16.429
up you should not have sex with them. Obviously
00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:19.449
yeah but if you're totally up too it's not your
00:52:19.449 --> 00:52:22.550
fault right. Well that's where things get really
00:52:22.550 --> 00:52:24.869
complicated and out of hand. Yeah but it shouldn't
00:52:24.869 --> 00:52:27.250
be complicated but this is the DUI argument
00:52:27.250 --> 00:52:29.849
oh if you're really up you shouldn't.
00:52:29.849 --> 00:52:32.809
How I was saying well if you're
00:52:32.809 --> 00:52:35.329
so up you don't have judgment so therefore can
00:52:35.329 --> 00:52:36.869
you be blamed when you get behind the wheel of
00:52:36.869 --> 00:52:39.489
a car. That's different though. Getting
00:52:39.489 --> 00:52:41.230
behind the wheel of a car is different than having
00:52:41.230 --> 00:52:43.989
sex with a person when both of you are up. But
00:52:43.989 --> 00:52:45.610
it's not making a decision that you shouldn't
00:52:45.610 --> 00:52:47.269
have made, that you would not have made if you
00:52:47.269 --> 00:52:49.429
weren't fucked up. Yeah, but the analogy is that
00:52:49.429 --> 00:52:51.929
the car is also fucked up, which the car is not.
00:52:52.130 --> 00:52:54.210
You are fucked up. And you made the individual
00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:56.610
choice to get behind the wheel of a car knowing
00:52:56.610 --> 00:52:59.570
full well, meaning you decided to drink and then
00:52:59.570 --> 00:53:01.030
you decided to get behind the wheel of a car.
00:53:01.050 --> 00:53:03.489
You're having a potential effect on other human
00:53:03.489 --> 00:53:05.550
beings that you know. But these are two people,
00:53:05.670 --> 00:53:08.769
both of which are fucked up and both of which
00:53:08.769 --> 00:53:10.809
are making the decision. It's not the guy's fault
00:53:10.809 --> 00:53:12.829
in that case. You can't blame the guy.
00:53:13.250 --> 00:53:16.150
If the guy and the female are both radically
00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:18.489
intoxicated. Let me address some of the comments
00:53:18.489 --> 00:53:22.389
in the chat. Several of our regular listeners
00:53:22.389 --> 00:53:26.889
are upset that we didn't bring up Michael Tracy's
00:53:26.889 --> 00:53:31.349
take on Epstein. Now, I didn't bring it up for
00:53:31.349 --> 00:53:33.750
two reasons. I didn't bring it up for two reasons.
00:53:33.869 --> 00:53:35.670
One, I don't know much about what he had to say
00:53:35.670 --> 00:53:38.750
about Epstein. And number two, it's not just
00:53:38.750 --> 00:53:41.369
you. It's not relevant. I hate
00:53:41.369 --> 00:53:45.889
it when there's a... I want him to focus
00:53:45.889 --> 00:53:48.670
on this issue, and we can invite him back to
00:53:48.670 --> 00:53:49.869
talk about Epstein if we want. We went
00:53:49.869 --> 00:53:51.369
the entire show just talking about this issue.
00:53:51.510 --> 00:53:53.409
Where was Epstein a fit in? Yeah, it just would
00:53:53.409 --> 00:53:55.010
have been. It's not about putting
00:53:55.010 --> 00:53:57.710
him on trial. It's about having him,
00:53:57.710 --> 00:54:00.369
elucidate exactly where he's coming from. Yeah,
00:54:00.389 --> 00:54:03.670
yeah. And I agree with his basic point. His basic
00:54:03.670 --> 00:54:06.800
point is they threw the names out into the
00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:08.699
public even though the people hadn't been convicted
00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:13.019
of anything and in her case protected her despite
00:54:13.019 --> 00:54:14.300
the fact that the guys hadn't been convicted
00:54:14.300 --> 00:54:16.780
of anything meaning they're accepting consequences
00:54:16.780 --> 00:54:19.300
for something that they haven't necessarily been
00:54:19.300 --> 00:54:22.420
convicted for and that we only have a person's
00:54:22.420 --> 00:54:24.820
word explaining what ultimately happened and
00:54:24.820 --> 00:54:28.769
that word is kind of all over the place.
00:54:28.769 --> 00:54:32.539
Look I'm not reflexively disbelieving her. I'm
00:54:32.539 --> 00:54:35.280
willing to accept right this idea that the first
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.119
two guys were fair game. This is what I was down
00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:39.579
for. It's my body, my choice. And that's my,
00:54:39.579 --> 00:54:41.739
that's my instinct is to believe that. Yeah.
00:54:41.860 --> 00:54:46.420
Yeah. They invited a bunch of their stupid
00:54:46.420 --> 00:54:49.599
fucking frat bros to come and join. It's that
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:52.039
part. They had no business doing that. That makes
00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.960
them rapists by proxy. Well, the catch becomes,
00:54:55.099 --> 00:54:58.809
are they? The part that you pointed out in the
00:54:58.809 --> 00:55:02.170
text where she was, the first two I accepted.
00:55:02.349 --> 00:55:05.110
Next time, let's not have your other guys. Tracy
00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:08.050
is right that that's not really that other guys
00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:10.869
rate me, but it is kind of an indication of I
00:55:10.869 --> 00:55:14.679
wasn't on board for these guys. Right. But there
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:16.840
is evidence. Yeah. Whether that constitutes
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:19.800
proof, I don't know. It's that part. And the
00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:21.519
fact, and that's what, I guess that was kind
00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:22.920
of the point I was trying to make to Tracy. Just
00:55:22.920 --> 00:55:25.460
because a prosecutor didn't break a trial doesn't
00:55:25.460 --> 00:55:28.059
necessarily mean that these guys didn't commit
00:55:28.059 --> 00:55:31.980
rape. I don't know, right? I'm stuck in
00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:35.630
a position of just not knowing. Can you stay
00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:37.389
a few extra minutes or do we have to race through?
00:55:37.730 --> 00:55:40.869
Okay, all right. All right, cool. So anything
00:55:40.869 --> 00:55:43.630
else you want to say about any of this or? I
00:55:43.630 --> 00:55:46.929
don't think so. Personally, I like Tracy
00:55:46.929 --> 00:55:48.929
and I like his take on this. I don't think his
00:55:48.929 --> 00:55:51.989
take is. He used to buy a fly swatter, though.
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.519
Well, right, that too. But I think they're looking
00:55:55.519 --> 00:55:57.579
at it as, well, how are you not just believing
00:55:57.579 --> 00:56:00.159
her? You're disbelieving women. And this woman
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.039
was obviously raped, and you're not acknowledging
00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:04.239
the fact that she was raped. And I think Tracy's
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.039
basic point is, how do we know that as a flat
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:10.019
fact? And our justice system isn't built on what
00:56:10.019 --> 00:56:12.659
people think. It's based on what you try to get
00:56:12.659 --> 00:56:16.599
to as the nub of it. How can you prosecute multiple
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:19.170
guys that are in their college years that's
00:56:19.170 --> 00:56:20.989
going to affect for the rest of their life if
00:56:20.989 --> 00:56:24.650
indeed you don't know if it was rape and under
00:56:25.099 --> 00:56:29.170
the law innocent until proven guilty. He has a
00:56:29.170 --> 00:56:31.389
point. It doesn't mean that they're interested
00:56:31.389 --> 00:56:34.730
no right. It just means that how do you prosecute
00:56:34.730 --> 00:56:36.949
them in a criminal justice system when you don't
00:56:36.949 --> 00:56:38.789
know it's a flat fact it was right and this is
00:56:38.789 --> 00:56:41.349
not a rah-rah for people who committed gang
00:56:41.349 --> 00:56:44.570
right but it's interesting to me that they didn't
00:56:44.570 --> 00:56:46.690
invite her to the there's so much right.
00:56:46.690 --> 00:56:48.750
They didn't invite her to the next party why
00:56:49.489 --> 00:56:52.010
I mean, obviously they felt that they had fucked
00:56:52.010 --> 00:56:55.960
up some way. And that one, one of the two guys
00:56:55.960 --> 00:56:58.320
that she was apparently may have been consensual
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:01.380
with, she exchanged a text with him
00:57:01.380 --> 00:57:04.820
and, and basically she was kind of, he was
00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:07.559
apologizing. He reached out to her and said,
00:57:07.579 --> 00:57:09.360
basically, sorry for the way things went yesterday.
00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:13.659
That's very, that's extremely telling. Yeah.
00:57:13.739 --> 00:57:15.539
I think that's telling too. It sounds like she
00:57:15.539 --> 00:57:17.179
was down for the first two. I don't know about
00:57:17.179 --> 00:57:18.619
the other one. That's what it sounds like to
00:57:18.619 --> 00:57:22.070
me too. And by the way, if indeed she was not
00:57:22.070 --> 00:57:24.409
down for the other ones, if indeed she did not
00:57:24.409 --> 00:57:26.269
agree to the other ones, by definition, it's
00:57:26.269 --> 00:57:30.250
rape. Well, certainly for those five. And I would
00:57:30.250 --> 00:57:32.670
say, I don't know what you charge the
00:57:32.670 --> 00:57:36.250
first two with. Is there a charge
00:57:36.250 --> 00:57:39.130
for basically soliciting rape?
00:57:39.130 --> 00:57:41.889
When you say, hey, come on up, there's free pussy
00:57:41.889 --> 00:57:45.230
upstairs. It's called rape. It's called rape.
00:57:45.750 --> 00:57:48.150
Well, but it's not legally rape, right? Because
00:57:48.150 --> 00:57:50.530
they didn't rape her, right? So the question
00:57:50.530 --> 00:57:52.289
- Yeah, but they invited other guys to do so.
00:57:52.530 --> 00:57:55.489
Right. So the question is, if you are enabling
00:57:55.489 --> 00:57:59.639
it, you know what I'm saying? I don't know. I
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:01.480
don't know how the - There's a person who's unconscious.
00:58:01.519 --> 00:58:03.480
This would be a New York State legal question.
00:58:03.920 --> 00:58:05.219
Yeah, but there's a person who's unconscious.
00:58:05.559 --> 00:58:07.920
You're inviting other people in to have sex with
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.340
this other person when they didn't consent. But
00:58:10.340 --> 00:58:11.940
clearly you should be charged with something.
00:58:12.039 --> 00:58:13.900
I don't know what. Well, let me ask you this.
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:15.980
If a person robs a bank. Maybe reckless endangerment
00:58:15.980 --> 00:58:18.199
or something. The person in the getaway car
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:20.840
is going to be charged with robbery and killing
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:22.440
if they kill somebody in that bank robbery also.
00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:25.579
Yeah, that's true. They just call it murder.
00:58:26.019 --> 00:58:28.199
They don't call it. Yeah. Well, I'm fine with
00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:30.079
that. I think if you invite people in
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:33.159
to rape someone who's out of it or not out of
00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:37.260
it, that's rape, obviously. I don't know if the
00:58:37.260 --> 00:58:40.059
law works that way. Because there's that whole
00:58:40.059 --> 00:58:42.869
question, right? Conflate the legal system with
00:58:42.869 --> 00:58:45.329
the justice system and they're not the same right.
00:58:45.329 --> 00:58:49.809
Yeah no no that's fair. Okay so all right let's
00:58:49.809 --> 00:58:52.429
we'll move on to we'll get into
00:58:52.429 --> 00:58:55.829
Israel and Lebanon and Elon Musk. What do
00:58:55.829 --> 00:59:00.489
you want to do first? Let's do Elon. Let's do
00:59:00.489 --> 00:59:04.530
Israel first. Okay so New York Times did a satellite
00:59:04.530 --> 00:59:07.579
analysis because I guess it's too expensive to
00:59:07.579 --> 00:59:11.019
send reporters where they looked at 60 villages
00:59:11.019 --> 00:59:13.599
that have been leveled in southern Lebanon in
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:17.659
the parts that have been occupied by Israel most
00:59:17.659 --> 00:59:20.880
recently. And 48 of them have been completely
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:22.820
leveled. In other words, this is beyond just
00:59:22.820 --> 00:59:25.420
just I don't want to use the word just beyond
00:59:25.420 --> 00:59:28.989
bombing. And they have special teams, just like
00:59:28.989 --> 00:59:31.869
we've seen in Gaza, go in and demolish any buildings
00:59:31.869 --> 00:59:34.849
that have survived in part or in whole. And there's
00:59:34.849 --> 00:59:38.170
literally nothing left. The IDF says this is
00:59:38.170 --> 00:59:40.550
in order to prevent there being any infrastructure
00:59:40.550 --> 00:59:43.630
that can be used by Hezbollah against targets
00:59:43.630 --> 00:59:46.269
in northern Israel, which is obviously nonsense.
00:59:46.510 --> 00:59:49.170
This is ethnic cleansing. It's about creating
00:59:49.170 --> 00:59:52.130
a space where nobody could live so they can come
00:59:52.130 --> 00:59:56.659
and go as they want. And stealing the land, basically.
00:59:56.980 --> 01:00:01.920
They want the land. But interestingly, only Shiite
01:00:01.920 --> 01:00:06.460
villages have been targeted. Obviously, Hezbollah
01:00:06.460 --> 01:00:10.639
is a predominantly Shia movement. And Druze and
01:00:10.639 --> 01:00:14.639
other villages that are not Shiite, including
01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:18.079
some Sunni villages, were relatively left unscathed.
01:00:18.079 --> 01:00:21.980
So this is... This is definitely genocidal, right?
01:00:22.139 --> 01:00:25.579
In Gaza, they went after everyone. They
01:00:25.579 --> 01:00:28.980
killed Christians, too. Here, they're killing
01:00:28.980 --> 01:00:33.480
members of a particular sect of Islam and destroying
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:37.519
their property and their homes and leaving other
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:42.710
sects untouched or unmolested. It's, in a way,
01:00:42.769 --> 01:00:47.199
more specifically genocidal. Well, they're also
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:49.039
trying to create divisions between Sunni and
01:00:49.039 --> 01:00:55.000
Shia the area, meaning because the Shia would
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.079
know our villages have been destroyed, right?
01:00:58.239 --> 01:00:59.880
They would have a clear conscience of it.
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:02.239
And when you get Druze who are that much closer
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:04.920
to Israel, especially in the Syria conflict,
01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:08.719
yeah, they're leaving certain villages alone
01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:10.960
for reasons. Even with Saudi Arabia,
01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:12.699
if you're looking at it, the way Saudi Arabia
01:01:12.699 --> 01:01:15.199
is trying to use sectarian divisions and trying
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:17.420
to make this argument that Ansar Allah is somehow
01:01:17.420 --> 01:01:20.440
against Islam because Ansar Allah is attacking
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:23.340
Saudi Arabia and so the Sunnis should come together.
01:01:23.340 --> 01:01:28.639
They're using this kind of
01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:31.539
the differences in the religions. Well the
01:01:31.659 --> 01:01:34.559
assumed differences in the religion almost as
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:37.139
a weapon in and of itself but yeah they're obviously
01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:39.099
ethnic cleansing those areas. They're leveling
01:01:39.099 --> 01:01:42.420
villages in southern Lebanon fully leveling
01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:46.579
villages and they want the land clearly. And
01:01:46.579 --> 01:01:48.039
part of the reason that they were going after
01:01:48.389 --> 01:01:51.030
building materials, construction materials,
01:01:51.030 --> 01:01:53.550
construction companies those type of things
01:01:53.550 --> 01:01:55.449
because they want to prevent any kind of rebuilding
01:01:55.449 --> 01:01:58.230
of Lebanon. They're going to, they want the land
01:01:58.230 --> 01:02:00.369
and yeah they're trying to create sectarian divisions.
01:02:00.369 --> 01:02:06.880
We have some breaking news. Kimberly
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:10.300
Guilfoyle may be unemployed soon joining the
01:02:10.300 --> 01:02:13.119
ranks of the unemployed. She's the U.S. ambassador
01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.400
to Greece. The Wall Street Journal is reporting
01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:19.039
exclusively that the White House is calling on
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:23.219
her to resign, which obviously she will. She
01:02:23.219 --> 01:02:28.940
appears to have asked a wealthy donor to pay
01:02:28.940 --> 01:02:32.440
off $100,000 American Express bill as a way
01:02:32.440 --> 01:02:38.000
of basically laundering a bribe to her because
01:02:38.000 --> 01:02:40.739
she said, oh, that won't appear anywhere. That'll
01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:43.579
just go directly to American Express and apparently
01:02:43.579 --> 01:02:47.260
the wealthy donor said I would need a divorce
01:02:47.260 --> 01:02:51.139
if I did that. I guess it's because apparently
01:02:51.139 --> 01:02:54.139
it's a guy and he and his wife would see this
01:02:54.139 --> 01:02:56.719
payment and be like okay I'm going to kill you
01:02:56.719 --> 01:03:01.940
now. So yeah so former Mrs. Gavin Newsom is
01:03:01.940 --> 01:03:05.789
in deep shit. Oh that was Gavin Newsom's wife.
01:03:05.789 --> 01:03:11.159
Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. Interesting. Oh,
01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:16.179
yeah. She's bipartisan in that respect. Well,
01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:19.320
I think she's screwed. Yeah, she's probably going
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:24.170
to lose her job and she needs to do better. There
01:03:24.170 --> 01:03:28.349
are better ways except bribes, right? Yeah. Other
01:03:28.349 --> 01:03:30.190
people have found all sorts of creative ways
01:03:30.190 --> 01:03:32.449
except bribes. Donald Trump is magnificently
01:03:32.449 --> 01:03:35.429
rich. There's an irony, by the way, of this idea
01:03:35.429 --> 01:03:38.269
of her being fired for taking bribes. And
01:03:38.269 --> 01:03:40.710
the money that Donald Trump has been able to
01:03:40.710 --> 01:03:44.690
monetize the office for. Billions. Yeah. $100,000.
01:03:44.690 --> 01:03:47.269
It's, it's that, it's that editorial cartoon that came out during the
01:03:49.570 --> 01:03:53.469
2008 subprime mortgage meltdown and all the banks
01:03:53.469 --> 01:03:56.349
fucking up. And it's two bank, two bank managers
01:03:56.349 --> 01:03:58.489
looking through the, out the window of their
01:03:58.489 --> 01:04:01.349
office at a guy, a classic bank robber with the
01:04:01.349 --> 01:04:04.329
mask holding up the teller. And he's, amateur.
01:04:05.449 --> 01:04:10.690
Right? Yeah. That's an amateur move. With all
01:04:10.690 --> 01:04:13.750
of the bribery that takes place in this country,
01:04:13.889 --> 01:04:18.070
and you get caught. Yeah, it's sad. Do better.
01:04:18.630 --> 01:04:22.469
$100,000. Trump is, that's not even a tip.
01:04:22.829 --> 01:04:26.150
That's a rounding error. That's a rounding error.
01:04:26.250 --> 01:04:29.369
Trump is making billions. Even on the oil trade,
01:04:29.650 --> 01:04:34.460
he has people making side deals. It's astonishing.
01:04:34.659 --> 01:04:38.559
Meaning, he is using policy and sending out Kushner
01:04:38.559 --> 01:04:41.840
or Witkoff and sending these guys out where these
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:46.000
guys are making deals based on the terms of what
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:49.380
Donald Trump is doing. Also, some other breaking
01:04:49.380 --> 01:04:55.420
news. A massive cyber attack hit France. 380
01:04:55.420 --> 01:05:00.320
refrigeration systems at supermarkets were struck
01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:02.340
last week, according to the French government.
01:05:03.099 --> 01:05:05.840
And they're trying to figure out who's responsible.
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:10.739
They targeted a Danish software system. Wait,
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:12.980
their refrigeration system is connected to the
01:05:12.980 --> 01:05:16.099
internet in some way? Apparently so, yeah. It's
01:05:16.099 --> 01:05:19.880
a Monoprix, which is what they call a hypermarché,
01:05:19.880 --> 01:05:24.320
a hypermarket, a hypermarché. The Monoprix chain,
01:05:24.460 --> 01:05:26.639
which is like Walmart where they sell food, but
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.860
it's even more food, right? Anyway, they
01:05:30.860 --> 01:05:34.019
said that no one's claimed responsibility. They
01:05:34.019 --> 01:05:36.920
don't know who it was. Obviously lots
01:05:36.920 --> 01:05:39.739
of food had to be thrown away. I wonder if this
01:05:39.739 --> 01:05:44.909
could be the Iranians or, Russia. Or
01:05:44.909 --> 01:05:48.210
the kids that are 16-year-old kids. Who knows?
01:05:48.289 --> 01:05:51.590
Yeah, it could be. Some of those
01:05:51.590 --> 01:05:53.909
kids ostensibly will be really good at computers.
01:05:54.050 --> 01:05:57.050
They're kids. Yeah. And we're not talking
01:05:57.050 --> 01:05:58.809
about five-year-olds. We're talking about
01:05:58.809 --> 01:06:02.239
people 16, 17 who are going to college that
01:06:02.239 --> 01:06:04.699
may be going to college for software, it very
01:06:04.699 --> 01:06:06.739
well could have become internal in France. It
01:06:06.739 --> 01:06:08.599
could have been the Russians. It could have been
01:06:08.599 --> 01:06:11.500
the Iranians. It could have been French. This
01:06:11.500 --> 01:06:14.619
is the shape of things to come, right?
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.980
Yeah. That's why I thought it was worth mentioning.
01:06:18.099 --> 01:06:20.619
And finally, Elon Musk, you mentioned this earlier.
01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:23.679
We talked about it on your show, has given nearly,
01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:27.019
well, basically over a quarter of a billion dollars
01:06:27.550 --> 01:06:30.670
to GOP groups and political action committees
01:06:30.670 --> 01:06:35.769
just in Q3 of this year right. This is the
01:06:35.769 --> 01:06:38.429
one of the biggest political donations recorded
01:06:38.429 --> 01:06:41.550
in U.S. history and it's a midterm election.
01:06:41.550 --> 01:06:44.969
Can you imagine what he'll pour in and
01:06:44.969 --> 01:06:49.309
in 2026, in 2028 it'll be it'll be crazy.
01:06:50.139 --> 01:06:52.599
At some point, this feels like the steroid Olympics.
01:06:52.960 --> 01:06:56.019
Saturday Night Live had this skit where they
01:06:56.019 --> 01:07:00.000
legalize all steroids for the Olympics. And this
01:07:00.000 --> 01:07:02.679
skit, one of the guys tries to lift 1,000
01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:06.039
pounds, and he rips his arms off. And his arms
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:08.280
are, blood is peering out. And he's just
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:11.820
walking around with his arms pulled off. It feels
01:07:11.820 --> 01:07:13.360
like that, where it's, at a certain amount,
01:07:13.420 --> 01:07:16.860
you guys, you've allowed this idea of money equals
01:07:16.860 --> 01:07:18.849
speech where the people with the most money
01:07:18.849 --> 01:07:21.030
can effectively give billions if they wanted
01:07:21.030 --> 01:07:23.289
to. Bloomberg gave a billion dollars into
01:07:23.289 --> 01:07:26.289
his campaign when he ran and and for all the
01:07:26.289 --> 01:07:28.170
good it did him. Yeah but all the good it did
01:07:28.170 --> 01:07:30.409
but a billion dollars think of that having that
01:07:30.409 --> 01:07:33.610
much money when you dump that into a primary
01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:35.989
not even the main election. Imagine what he would
01:07:35.989 --> 01:07:37.409
have done in the main election. He could have
01:07:37.409 --> 01:07:40.150
literally ran his own campaign. Hillary Clinton
01:07:40.150 --> 01:07:42.590
spent a billion dollars in her campaign to put
01:07:42.590 --> 01:07:45.389
it in context for the presidential race. Bloomberg
01:07:45.389 --> 01:07:48.989
spent that much in a primary by himself. That
01:07:48.989 --> 01:07:51.449
is an astonishing sum of money to have and astonishing
01:07:51.449 --> 01:07:54.030
sum of money to use. And so when Elon Musk is,
01:07:54.030 --> 01:07:56.610
quietly, as they put it in the article,
01:07:56.769 --> 01:07:59.530
quietly drops a quarter of a billion dollars.
01:07:59.630 --> 01:08:01.849
How do you quietly drop a quarter of a billion
01:08:01.849 --> 01:08:04.369
dollars? Obviously, he's reading the paper today.
01:08:04.449 --> 01:08:06.550
It's, not quietly enough, apparently. Not
01:08:06.550 --> 01:08:09.349
quietly enough. And obviously, that money is
01:08:09.349 --> 01:08:11.309
being spread out into candidates that he thinks
01:08:11.309 --> 01:08:13.250
will be in his personal bank. No doubt through
01:08:13.250 --> 01:08:16.569
shell corporations. It's all dark money. Just
01:08:16.569 --> 01:08:20.199
to be very clear, this is not for America. This
01:08:20.199 --> 01:08:23.359
is for Elon. I'm putting in candidates that will
01:08:23.359 --> 01:08:25.319
be to my best interest. That's what I'm going
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:26.779
to do because I believe I'm going to get that
01:08:26.779 --> 01:08:29.239
money back when I'm putting that money out. So
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:34.279
I can get my calls returned. Yes. This is an
01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:37.819
investment. It's not for America. He's doing
01:08:37.819 --> 01:08:40.439
this personally, specifically for Elon Musk.
01:08:40.779 --> 01:08:43.060
And we as Americans should have some feelings
01:08:43.060 --> 01:08:47.350
about that. Well, it's inherently corrupt. And
01:08:47.350 --> 01:08:49.989
it's inherently anti-democratic. That's why
01:08:49.989 --> 01:08:51.369
I disagree with you with the money equals speech
01:08:51.369 --> 01:08:52.850
stuff. I don't think money is speech. I think
01:08:52.850 --> 01:08:54.630
money and speech are two different things. Well,
01:08:54.710 --> 01:08:57.050
it should be. I'm just saying, I agree that it
01:08:57.050 --> 01:09:00.949
ought to be. I'm just saying that it isn't. It's
01:09:00.949 --> 01:09:02.750
not about ought. I'm saying they are different.
01:09:02.989 --> 01:09:06.250
Me having a dollar is not equipping me. It's
01:09:06.250 --> 01:09:08.970
not the same thing as me telling my dog to go
01:09:08.970 --> 01:09:13.300
outside. I hear you because the fact that
01:09:13.300 --> 01:09:15.439
the fact that you can lose with lots of
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:19.239
money proves that proves your point. Yeah I guess
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:20.779
I just thought about them being the same thing.
01:09:20.779 --> 01:09:23.260
I think the Supreme Court up they shouldn't.
01:09:23.260 --> 01:09:26.680
They were rich people doing rich things
01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:29.060
in the best interest of other rich people is
01:09:29.060 --> 01:09:30.600
what the Supreme Court did with that. That's our
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:33.920
system. Yeah if you say better to says better
01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:36.239
to live in truth but have no meaning and and
01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:39.569
purpose or to have purpose and meaning, but not
01:09:39.569 --> 01:09:43.350
in truth, i.e. religion. I do not know what
01:09:43.350 --> 01:09:45.750
that's profound. I want to believe in something,
01:09:45.890 --> 01:09:51.470
even if it's not true. Yeah, that's crazy. Also,
01:09:51.890 --> 01:09:55.050
a few says, check out Bible expert rejects Christianity
01:09:55.050 --> 01:09:59.130
after living in Amazon jungle. All right. What?
01:09:59.609 --> 01:10:01.729
I don't know. Oh, the jungle life was so hard.
01:10:01.829 --> 01:10:04.970
He said, there is no God. Well, yeah, well, that's
01:10:04.970 --> 01:10:08.119
a lot of, a lot of Jews lost their faith
01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:10.880
in the camps during World War II right. They
01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:13.819
were just if there was a God either
01:10:13.819 --> 01:10:17.260
there's either there's a God and he's an or a
01:10:17.260 --> 01:10:22.100
do-nothing or there's no God or look I would
01:10:22.100 --> 01:10:26.319
tell you this statement there is no what
01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:28.579
is it you have a jealous God stuff like that.
01:10:28.579 --> 01:10:33.460
I don't believe a God would say that. Not one
01:10:33.460 --> 01:10:36.220
that is real. It just seems very strange
01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:38.359
to me. That's something on Stargate where
01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:40.359
the Goa'uld comes down and it's, worship
01:10:40.359 --> 01:10:42.659
me as your God, that type of stuff. And it's
01:10:42.659 --> 01:10:44.579
, I am a jealous God. I have no other God
01:10:44.579 --> 01:10:49.000
before me. I can see them saying it, right? But
01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:54.289
God of the universe? Eh, I'm skeptical. By the
01:10:54.289 --> 01:10:56.630
way, I've got to tease something. So I don't
01:10:56.630 --> 01:10:59.050
know if, tell me if you, did the publisher send
01:10:59.050 --> 01:11:05.069
you the PDF, the digital version of Boiling Point,
01:11:05.210 --> 01:11:08.689
the Ukraine book? If not, make sure you I'll
01:11:08.689 --> 01:11:10.909
ask for it. Anyway, I'm almost done with it.
01:11:10.970 --> 01:11:13.449
We're going to have Stephen Kinzer, author of
01:11:13.449 --> 01:11:15.850
this upcoming book called Boiling Point, How
01:11:15.850 --> 01:11:19.090
America Brought War to Ukraine. It's from published
01:11:19.090 --> 01:11:21.329
by a major publisher, Henry Holt. And that is
01:11:21.329 --> 01:11:24.590
it's a barn burner. And it's all the stuff you
01:11:24.590 --> 01:11:26.609
and I have been talking about on the station
01:11:26.609 --> 01:11:30.289
and subsequently about Ukraine and
01:11:30.289 --> 01:11:32.430
people who watch this show and and listen
01:11:32.430 --> 01:11:35.029
to this show know about it but for a mainstream
01:11:35.029 --> 01:11:37.350
audience and I will say there's even stuff that
01:11:37.350 --> 01:11:40.369
surprised me Jamarl the US has had a hard-on
01:11:40.369 --> 01:11:43.050
for Ukraine going back to World War II and trying
01:11:43.050 --> 01:11:46.689
to use Ukraine as the way to with the Soviet
01:11:46.689 --> 01:11:48.930
Union and then with post-independence Russia.
01:11:48.930 --> 01:11:52.609
I knew it. I knew they'd been on since
01:11:52.609 --> 01:11:55.210
independence but I didn't know that even back
01:11:55.210 --> 01:11:58.109
in the day they were recruiting
01:11:58.109 --> 01:12:01.310
Ukrainian Nazis back in the late 40s
01:12:01.310 --> 01:12:04.689
to attack the Soviets militarily. What
01:12:04.689 --> 01:12:08.630
Operation Gladio. Yeah crazy is that it. Operation
01:12:08.630 --> 01:12:12.510
Gladio yes. Doing that stuff. I knew about it
01:12:12.510 --> 01:12:15.460
going back during the Bush administration during
01:12:15.460 --> 01:12:17.300
the first Bush administration. Is that right? During
01:12:17.300 --> 01:12:19.939
Bush first Bush. No, no, no. We've been screwed
01:12:19.939 --> 01:12:21.560
with it for a while. Because you're right, the
01:12:21.560 --> 01:12:24.189
Soviet Union. Even Operation Lightning.
01:12:24.470 --> 01:12:28.130
1947, yeah. And they recruited, and just
01:12:28.130 --> 01:12:32.189
basically, what, basically how,
01:12:32.310 --> 01:12:35.789
and also how the foreign policy establishment
01:12:35.789 --> 01:12:38.569
of the United States, with people like Brzezinski,
01:12:38.710 --> 01:12:42.289
has been completely infiltrated by anti-Russian,
01:12:42.409 --> 01:12:45.069
Eastern European emigres. Well, we
01:12:45.069 --> 01:12:46.810
were working with the Nazis after the Soviet
01:12:46.810 --> 01:12:49.060
Union to get information on the Soviets. Yeah.
01:12:49.140 --> 01:12:51.819
And obviously, if you're working with the Nazis,
01:12:51.960 --> 01:12:53.460
when you're in close coordination, I don't
01:12:53.460 --> 01:12:55.680
mean just NASA. I mean, literally working with
01:12:55.680 --> 01:12:58.520
Nazis that were in Germany after the war and
01:12:58.520 --> 01:13:00.699
using them as our way of getting information
01:13:00.699 --> 01:13:02.359
on the Soviets. And it's, OK, well, what
01:13:02.359 --> 01:13:03.920
is your foreign policy going to be? Well, this
01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:06.399
is not even just and what I'm talking about is
01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:08.899
not this is hiring, the old Banderites
01:13:08.899 --> 01:13:12.949
to try to launch military assault
01:13:12.949 --> 01:13:17.250
inside the Soviet Union in 1947 while
01:13:17.250 --> 01:13:19.689
we were technically still supposed to be allies
01:13:19.689 --> 01:13:23.489
after World War II. So it's yeah pretty scurrilous.
01:13:23.489 --> 01:13:26.149
It goes back to the early days of the CIA. So
01:13:26.149 --> 01:13:29.069
yeah we were looking immediately at the moment
01:13:29.069 --> 01:13:32.359
that the war ended day one. Yeah. Totally. The
01:13:32.359 --> 01:13:33.939
moment that it ended. And McCarthy was,
01:13:34.000 --> 01:13:35.699
we should attack the Soviet Union. It's funny
01:13:35.699 --> 01:13:38.020
because a lot of the, the high ranking
01:13:38.020 --> 01:13:41.020
Nazi officials up to Hitler all assumed that
01:13:41.020 --> 01:13:43.920
basically they, hey, one day you
01:13:43.920 --> 01:13:45.600
guys will agree with us and you'll turn against
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:48.539
the Soviets. And, it turns out that
01:13:48.539 --> 01:13:51.819
not those Nazi leaders, they were just a few,
01:13:51.880 --> 01:13:53.800
a couple of years ahead of their time. That's
01:13:53.800 --> 01:13:56.479
all. Yeah, they were right. They were just, we
01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:58.920
were just at war with them. If we weren't at
01:13:58.920 --> 01:14:01.279
war with them, we'd be allies, right? Totally.
01:14:02.300 --> 01:14:04.060
Well, thank you so much. But no, I haven't seen
01:14:04.060 --> 01:14:06.409
the book. I don't see it in my email. Oh, really?
01:14:06.550 --> 01:14:10.270
Okay, I'll remind them. All right. Thank you.
01:14:10.289 --> 01:14:11.689
I'll do that right after this. Yeah, you definitely
01:14:11.689 --> 01:14:13.550
want to read the book. It's a great read. Stephen
01:14:13.550 --> 01:14:14.770
Kinzer is great, and we're going to have him
01:14:14.770 --> 01:14:19.310
here on the show soon. So, all right. Thanks
01:14:19.310 --> 01:14:22.409
everyone. Appreciate you. It's we'll be back tomorrow
01:14:22.409 --> 01:14:25.369
with the full two hours on Wednesday 9 to 11
01:14:25.369 --> 01:14:29.710
a.m. Thanks for and we'll have Robby
01:14:29.710 --> 01:14:33.989
back next week. So TMI no TMI this week. So
01:14:33.989 --> 01:14:37.510
basically it's a it's a slim week short
01:14:37.510 --> 01:14:41.619
week slim week Robby list week. Anyway. Hope
01:14:41.619 --> 01:14:43.840
all's well. Thanks to all the, to the people
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:45.960
who are subscribing to the show. We've added
01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:48.340
the new subscribers to the outro that I'm about
01:14:48.340 --> 01:14:50.859
to play right now. So if you want to join that
01:14:50.859 --> 01:14:54.060
group, it's $10 a month. Subscribe through YouTube
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and talk to you later. Bye.