WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm Lauren, and this is D Myth Turns a Page.
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My special episodes where I travel across to Transylvania, I definitely don't sparkle in the sun, and I become one of the brides with Charlotte Cross.
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So hi Charlotte, thank you so much for coming to talk to me about your debut.
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And we are so close now.
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We are literally doing this two days, two days before your masterpiece is released onto the public.
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So thank you so much.
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Two days.
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Thank you so much for finding the time.
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Well, thank you so much for having me.
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It's fantastic.
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I am having the weirdest week.
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It's really crazy.
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But no, I'm so happy to be here and to guess to talk to you about it.
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So your book, The Brides, is described as feminist gothic horror.
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And this is something I've never asked before, but I'm really interested.
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So, what as an author do you think makes fiction feminist?
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And do you think that sometimes that word is thrown around too frivolously to describe retellings now?
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So I feel like anything where women are given like subjectivity, agency, kind of get slapped with the label feminist because so much of not I'm gonna say literature, but I don't even mean like literature capital L, like the great Western canon, whatever.
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So much of what is written is male-centered because some much of it was just men doing the writing.
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But I think, yeah, anything, anything that's properly female-centered with female agency gets given the label feminist.
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So I do worry that it's like a little bit diluted, maybe, but I will say the brides is definitely feminist.
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Yeah, like the characters they are making their own choices, they are choices that are sometimes contrary to the society that they live in.
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It's definitely female focused.
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The male characters are kind of very much like on the edges, and they're like adjuncts of the female characters.
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In the way that we've seen, you know, a woman is always someone's wife, someone's daughter.
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I've I've kind of realized after the fact that that's sort of what I'd done with the male characters in the brides.
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Oops, not sorry.
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There is an author that we've had on who I've sort of developed a friendship with, and she always refers to my partner as Mr.
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Lauren, and it's like, oh my god, you know what?
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I'm good with that, and he hates it.
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But she's like, Oh, what's Mr.
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Lauren doing?
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I was like, No, I love that.
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I do that with some of my friends and their partners.
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Do you think the idea of a feminist book is different when we look at a retelling of a previously more male-centric story?
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Because obviously, with Dracula, Dracula is a vampire, but he's a man, and then the main characters that we have are men, and it does feel like a little bit more of a damsel in distress thing with the women in the story, rather than say, and I'm gonna get into some of what you said with women making choices outside society in a little bit, but yeah, we have a retelling that is female-centric that was previously male-centric, and we see that a lot in a lot of the retellings that I've done.
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I mean, I think female characters in older stories have a tendency to just be kind of ignored, not given their own subjectivity, be objects, be adjuncts.
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Dracula actually starts kind of alright.
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Like when we first meet female characters, we see Lucy Westenra and Mina Harker.
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Well, when she gets married, she's Mina Harker.
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And Mina actually starts off really well.
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Like she's quite tough, she's got a job, she's very focused, she's kind of she feels like not even of that time.
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But Lucy is like the princess, the damsel in distress.
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But later on in the narrative, Mina ends up kind of being in the damsel in distress role.
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And I find that really irritating.
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I love Dracula, but I find it really irritating when I read it because I feel like Bram Stoker kind of did Mina dirty, like she's starts off so tough and with so much agency and subjectivity, and then it kind of goes away, which irritates me so much.
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But when we're doing when we're retelling stories from a female perspective, I think we are kind of almost naturally going to put it in a more feminist lens.
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I mean, when you turn a side character into a main character, you see things through their eyes, right?
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And through their choices and what they want, and they are the center of the narrative.
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So therefore it almost happens by definition, I guess.
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Yeah, I feel like that's kind of what happened with the brides, actually.
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Taking characters who are they're just Dracula's brides, they're on the edge of the narrative.
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Bram Stoker tells us almost nothing about these women.
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So putting them in the middle of the narrative is just gonna turn it into a feminist book.
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Because why, like, why bother write a book with boring people, boring women who just follow the men in the story around?
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That would be so dull.
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You said in your acknowledgments that humans love to embellish and reimagine our favourite stories.
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So, why do you think that is when there's countless untold untold potential news stories out there?
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Why do we sometimes fixate on stories that are already told?
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And we see that with countless versions of the same thing coming out and coming out and coming out.
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Not that I'm saying that's what you've done, but you know, with a lot of we're in a real almost resurgence of feminist retellings of things, and you are now part of that.
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So I'm interested in what you think.
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I think like we've done it with like telling, retelling our old stories for such a long time.
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Like literally all the ancient Greek plays about their myths, which were old even to them, so they're retelling those stories, and that's thousands of years ago.
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Like, humans just love to do that.
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We've always loved to do it, and we still love to do it.
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But I think in terms of telling stories that haven't been told, we we still love to do that too.
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We still want to do new things, and we still want to do new things with older stories, especially like right now, and for the last, you know, the period of time that we've had real diversity in who gets to write, who gets to create stories, being able to step away from this very white male colonial imperial view.
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I heard it described once as like art is like a house with loads of windows.
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And when you only have the white male creative person, you're only looking out of one window.
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So when we have diversity and this diversity of viewpoints, we can look out of all of the windows of the house and we get we can get views on all of these old stories.
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I think you don't want to be derivative.
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I think it's easy to get lazy and like not to um get myself cancelled or anything.
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But do we really need another Marvel movie with stuff just being blown up?
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I think you need to like it.
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It was important to me when I was writing The Brides that I was doing something different.
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Like, I wasn't just rehashing Dracula.
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It was important that I was taking the old story and still moving it forward in some way.
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So, spoiler, not spoiler, The Brides is obviously about the Brides of Dracula.
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Why do you think that they have lived on in pop culture and we still see their influence?
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Like, even in one of the most recent Resident Evil games, there are characters that are kind of inspired by them.
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So, why do you think people are so interested in them?
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Maybe not as much as Dracula himself, but they still hold their own real special place in pop culture.
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Okay, so I feel like it's two things.
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One of those things is because in the adaptations they're always like sexy and in their 90s, and they're all like even in the book, they're kind of like sexually predatory and aggressive and transgressive for the the morals of the time.
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So there's the kind of male gays sexy aspect, but more than that, like I feel like they're a question that Bram Stoker never answers.
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He like never goes into detail about who these women are, where they came from, what they're doing there, anything at all.
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We don't see any of that in in the original Dracula.
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So it means that we can kind of create our own answers to that.
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And I think, yeah, that's maybe why people in all different media, like video games, movies, books, kind of keep revisiting the brides to answer that question in a new way or a different way, or put a different light on it or something.
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And obviously, I'm assuming you are a fan of Dracula.
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Of course, yes.
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So, how did the story come about?
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Because you mentioned in your author's note that at first you were ashamed of your own arrogance, thinking that you had something to add.
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Yeah, because you know, Dracula is so like everywhere in our culture.
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Everyone who knows who Dracula is, everyone knows who he is, what he can do, his history, like we just we all know that, right?
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And putting him in my own story felt kind of felt kind of arrogant.
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I pushed through that because I just got possessed.
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I got completely possessed by the idea and by the characters that I wanted to create.
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So I just kind of got over myself.
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Um, but I started so I started writing The Brides in October of 2019 because it was like a dark and stormy October afternoon, and I went to a bookshop in Oxford, and I was just browsing, and I came across this book called Who Was Dracula's Father and Other Puzzles in Stoker's Gothic Masterpiece by um a literary critic, Professor John Sutherland.
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And I was just like having a nice read on my sofa in the Oxford suburb of Littlemore, round the corner from the old asylum, and they came across this essay, um, Why Do Dracula's Brides Speak English?
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And I read the essay and I was just like, that's no, that can't be right.
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And then I went back into my very well-thumbed copy of Dracula, and yeah, it is totally possible to interpret the bit that scene with the brides and Jonathan Harker and Dracula as the brides are speaking and understanding English.
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And I just kind of ran with that.
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Like, what would they be doing there?
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Why would they be speaking English?
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How would they get there?
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It's really long way away from England, especially at that, you know, that time in history.
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And the fact that I was living in Little Moore next door to the asylum also gave me one of the settings for the novel, and it just all sort of coalesced in my mind, and I was just so possessed with the idea that I kind of couldn't stop myself.
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So yeah, I just I just got over my whole Dracula arrogance thing.
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Um, I worked quite hard to make sure that my Dracula was Bram Stoker's Dracula and you know, a bit more going a bit further, but I wanted him to be like the same character.
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I didn't want to make him sexy, no sexy Draculas.
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You can have sexy vampires, but you can't have sexy Dracula.
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He's creepy and gross, and that was important.
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Um, but yeah, just kind of once I got going, I couldn't stop.
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I respect the little bit of arrogance in it, to be honest.
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I mean, like, there's a little bit of arrogance in all writers, I think, to assume that you've got something to say and people might want to hear you say it.
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So yeah.
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I think you can say that about everything.
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Like when I started doing this, I'm you know, I last studied books when I was in college, and now I'm talking to authors.
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Like, does it take a bit of arrogance when I first started emailing publicists to ask?
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Like, yeah, maybe, but you know what?
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Here we are today talking about it, and here you are with your book about to be released.
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So I'm here for it.
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Oh, thank you.
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I mean, is it arrogance or is it confidence?
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Are we just calling it arrogance because in a man of a woman confidence?
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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But I did think, like, I was in what I think it was roughly when I'd like just started writing.
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I was in my living room in Oxford doing yoga, as you do, and I was like upside down, and I was looking at my bookcase, and I just had this thought, probably because all the blood was rushing to my head, I had this thought that like all these people wrote a book.
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All these people did it.
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Maybe I can do it.
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Why not me?
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If all these people, why not me?
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You know?
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Should at least try it.
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Exactly.
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Why not you?
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And I mean, how does it feel that you went from feeling like, oh, maybe it is a bit arrogant to try and bring something new to Dracula, to then having it be taken seriously.
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And it's now found a home with such a massive publishing agency that obviously liked it enough to want to put it out there.
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Yeah, I just the honestly, like taking taking writing seriously has been a huge challenge.
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I think like I took a writing course um online with the Oxford University Continuing Education Um department in the summer of 2021.
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And that was the biggest help because I was like talking to other writers who were just like me, like starting out, not people who were published, not people who were, you know, really prolific, but people who were learning.
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And we all took each other really seriously and took our our work seriously and our ambition seriously.
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And that helped so much because it just when I was dealing with these other people, it's like, well, of course I would take them seriously, so why can't I do that for me?
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And it it helped me so much, but um yeah, taking taking it seriously, believing in what you have to say and that someone might want to hear it is just so hard.
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It's so hard.
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And I think we have a tendency in society to be like, well, don't get your hopes up, especially if you're doing something creative, whether that's like music or writing or whatever, if you want to make a career out of it, don't get your hopes up.
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But if you don't get your hopes up, you won't get anywhere.
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You're like defeating yourself before you've even started.
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So God, does that answer the question, or have I just gone off on one?
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No, I think it does.
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So is that advice that you would give to someone then who maybe hears this and thinks, I I think I could do that, to maybe find a writing course or a writing group filled with like-minded people?
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I think I would, yeah.
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I mean, be careful about the one that you pick because you want it to be ultimately like uplifting.
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I think if it was the kind of group where you get really into the critique and picking other people's writing apart, I don't think that would have helped me specifically at that time.
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But yeah, like the self-belief and getting the extra kind of input, if you like, the extra education, and it stretched me in like ways I didn't know even existed.
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Like it was a really strange experience.
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It was only 10 weeks, but I found myself being able to see my own progress literally week on week, and it was a huge confidence boost.
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So I think being in an environment that's really positive and uplifting and propelling you forward in that way.
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Like, I don't know how people do creative writing degrees and go and sit in a classroom and get your work ripped apart by a bunch of other 18-year-olds, I think that would be really just oh my god, I would probably cry in public.
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But it needs to be the right environment, I think.
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But yeah, it's definitely advice that I would give people.
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Find other people who will be encouraging and uplifting and help you learn rather than trying to like get really into the critique and ripping everything apart.
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I guess because you are also learning at that point, it is important to focus on the positives rather than maybe all of the negatives.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And I'm not saying like that you don't need to hear, okay, you're struggling with X, this is really needs a lot of work, but there's ways to communicate that.
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I think like all writers, we have massive ego that's really fragile.
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So you've got you've got to be careful, you've got to be careful about it.
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The Brides is all letters and journal entries.
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So is that done as homage to the original?
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Yeah.
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So in part, yes, it's homage to the original, but also because at the time I started writing, I was not very confident, like at all.
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So I thought, like, all my favourite books or most of my favourite books are in the first person.
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Maybe it'll be easier for me to write in the first person, and then obviously, like Dracula is mostly in the first person from all these different perspectives, so it felt like a really natural way forward.
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But of course, that ends up with me writing a book as a novice novelist, which has 12 or 13 different points of view in it, which was quite challenging.
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And I think if I'd known just how challenging it was going to be, I might have chosen a different path, but then it wouldn't have been quite so um in keeping with the original.
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But it was it was really satisfying, but it was just just so challenging to do.
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Huge respect to Bram Stoker, who did not have the advantage of an Excel spreadsheet to keep everything straight.
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Well, I'm really interested, like what was your writing process like?
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Because I think we have kind of three main timelines, or two main timelines, and then some letters written in the past.
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We have the current timeline of when the book is sort of taking place, and then we have some journal entries and letters around the time.
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I guess the best way to describe it is the build-up to and the creation of the brides, because it's not spoilery to say it's obviously gonna happen.
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And then we have some letters that are slightly further back that give some important context.
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So, how do you keep track and how do you know when we should jump forwards and backwards with letters and journal entries?
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So when I was writing, I put it into a frame, I call it a frame narrative.
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I don't know if that's strictly correct, where we've got the 1903 sections in Little More Asylum, Little More Mental Hospital, at the beginning of every part.
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No chapters.
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Why why why be conventional?
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No chapters, my god.
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Um, so there's 12 parts, the 1903 section at the beginning of every part, then the 1884 sections, and then yeah, like you say, there's a set of letters from 1874.
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So it's like that frame narrative.
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When I was very, very, very first drafting, I was just uh I decided about every 10,000 words I would move to a new part.
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So that didn't completely last through all of the drafts, but that when I was initially drafting, that was my kind of rule of thumb guideline.
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And it seemed to most it seemed to mostly work to feel that kind of distance.
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I did move things around where I wanted to mirror what was happening in the frame narrative versus the main narrative, but yeah, basically it was just that that blunt of a choice, really, just word count.
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And how do you know when to do it for sort of pacing and because you have to keep the reader engaged, and you want to swap maybe out.
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I've had people before say, I'm gonna do it on a cliffhanger.
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Because then you're gonna have to keep reading.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.799
So, how do you know what is going to keep the reader engaged?
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.640
Because we have some points like where they're on a train.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:41.359
I think that could get really boring, so you have to do it in a way that it's still interesting, and obviously you can flip perspectives between Lucy's journal and maybe Alice writing a letter.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.279
I think so.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:55.759
With the brides, it was really important to me to make sure that every entry is doing something, there's always something new that's being given to the reader.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:04.240
There's always maybe it's extra information when maybe we're moving the plot along, maybe it's saying something about the character that's going to be relevant later or whatever.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.960
But it's always doing something.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.920
And I wanted that to be true in every single entry.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.799
Like there's always something that's new or something to interest the reader.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.640
There is often like a bit of a crescendo towards the end of a part which ends sort of a bit on a cliffhanger.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:36.400
But I think that just yeah, making sure that you're not rehashing old ground, there's no filler, you're always making sure to give the reader something important in some way, kind of keeps that going.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.440
And I mean, the train journey, that whole section, that ends on a bit of a cliffhanger.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:50.079
So you know I know the bit you're thinking of, and that's um I can't I probably can't say in the non spoiler portion of the episode.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:50.559
No.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.039
But yeah, it lets let's say it ends on a cliffhanger.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:54.960
So I feel confident about that bit.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.880
Impressive.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:02.079
I like trains.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.759
I don't think trains are boring.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.079
So maybe that comes through.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:16.880
How do you balance lore from the original with maybe other folklore and possibly pop culture influences to do with vampires?
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.839
As well as looking at because you have sections that are set in the Littlemore Asylum.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.759
And so we touch on maybe some medical treatments of the time.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.480
They do talk into they do talk about potential hypnosis and things like that.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.319
I don't think that's spoilery particularly.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.359
So how do you balance all of this?
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.599
I'm assuming that you did possibly did some research, and it keeps the novel feeling believable.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:46.400
Because even though it's about vampires, it never really felt that far-fetched.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:47.920
Thank you.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:53.119
Um, like that is just reflective of kind of my own taste in like supernatural fiction.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.079
I like things to feel really grounded.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:06.400
So because as a as a writer of something supernatural, fantastical, you're asking the reader to kind of come on this journey with you and like trust you.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:20.480
So I wanted it to feel really, really grounded in the reality of daily life to some extent, like medical treatment, what it's like in the hospital, what it's like in a home of the time, what people are really doing.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:36.400
So that when we start going into psychics, we start getting into vampires, we start seeing people, you know, having prophetic dreams, all this stuff, that the reader is already so grounded in the world that it feels like it doesn't feel like a huge jump.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:44.000
It was really, really important to me to make sure that it felt very solid and that we have kind of rules.
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:51.440
But that's actually easier to do with Dracula because everyone's kind of familiar with what vampires can and can't do.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:57.440
Although pop culture of what vampires can and cannot do has moved on since Dracula.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.160
Like we all think, oh, vampires can't go out in the sun.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.240
Dracula was came before that was a thing.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.440
So Count Dracula can go out in the daylight.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:16.079
And so there was a little bit of fun in that where you can subvert expectations just a little bit, which I kind of I kind of enjoyed.
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:21.359
But um balancing it all out is not I didn't find it that difficult.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:35.759
It seemed to me to be quite just so in keeping with my own tastes and what I enjoy that I just kind of wrote it how I would like to read it, and it it seems to have balanced itself out.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.799
I mean the colours can go out in the sun.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:39.839
That's true.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.480
Nobody in my book fucking sparkles, okay?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.480
Nobody fucking sparkles.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:51.200
I think okay, this might be uh might get cancelled for this too.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:56.000
There is probably no influence from Twilight in the brides.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:04.400
There's influence from other pop culture, like properties and other folklore and all this stuff, but yeah, I don't think there's anything in there from Twilight.
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.519
I just imagine sparkling Dracula in this.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.799
Oh my god.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:15.920
No, no, Dracula does not sparkle, he's not sexy, he is scary and gross.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:16.559
No.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.920
I feel like that's a sound right there.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.680
No one in my book fucking sparkles.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:38.640
I really liked Lucy, and I sort of I liked her pretty early on when we start getting into her diary, and it's like, respect to you for keeping such a detailed diary, because I could never.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:26:01.200
And she is she quit, she catches the eye of a reverend, and she is reading Frankenstein, and he doesn't believe that women should be reading Frankenstein, and he wants to give her a nice sermon book, and she's kind of like, eh, I think I'll stick with Frankenstein, and that that ends that potential budding relationship.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:09.759
So when we say about a book being feminist, are there challenges around what was socially acceptable at the time?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:19.200
Because we see in a lot of Alice's letters when she is writing to her mum and sister, she's very careful to say, Oh, there was a chaperone here, or we didn't do this on our own.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:30.880
So, yes, you have these really badass women that are maybe pushing boundaries, but you have to keep them at least within some realistic limits of what was socially acceptable at the time, right?
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:31.839
Yeah.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.720
First thing, Alice is writing to her mum.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:37.839
Her mum worries, she's reassuring her mum.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:46.079
So she's really focusing on the fact of don't worry, mum, the only male servant's really elderly, he's he's not gonna be, you know, an issue.
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:47.440
Uh, don't worry, mum.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.279
I wasn't left alone with this young man.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:50.160
It's fine.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:54.880
If anything bad happened, I've got my hair pins, you know, we're fine.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:05.599
So she's yeah, writing to her mum and reassuring her that she's okay because she's a teenage girl in living away from home for the first time, basically, uh in her job as a ladies' maid.
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:11.279
And she's, you know, traveling in a way that probably no one from her family has ever travelled ever.
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.039
So she's always being really careful.
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:14.160
Don't worry about me, mum.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:15.039
I'm gonna be alright.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.759
Whereas Lucy, on the other hand, is writing in her own diary.
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:32.480
Lucy also has a lot more privilege because she's kind of upper-ish, middle class, and she has more of a like free not necessarily freedom, but just a little bit more space to push boundaries.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:48.799
Because if Alice Alice is a maid, she's working, she needs her job, there's a limit to what she can do because of her position in society, whereas Lucy can has a bit more freedom to like push boundaries, say what she thinks to an extent to a point.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:28:03.680
And Lucy has also been kind of under the influence for a very long time of the other main character, Mafalda, who is her secret girlfriend, and Mafalda is very privileged, has no fear, is very tough.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:10.880
And Lucy's been under that influence for so long that she's kind of got some of that going on.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:25.920
And she also, you know, with the reverence, she's not interested in marrying him, she doesn't need to impress him, she she can show that she's annoyed by him and and stick up for herself in a way that maybe other young ladies wouldn't necessarily be able to.
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.279
Yeah.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:33.039
It's there is certainly like boundaries of what would be socially acceptable.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.000
Lucy kind of chafes against them quite a lot.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:47.200
Like the benevolent sexism in society about what young ladies should and shouldn't do, she pushes back where she can because she she feels so uncomfortable and so bound by it.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:55.200
Um, but yeah, there's definitely a difference in because of the class situation and because of who they're communicating with.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:04.720
Like Lucy's writing in her diary, she's thinking, I'm gonna need a career, I'm gonna try and be like a newspaper woman or some kind of writer because I feel like I can do that.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.559
She's writing everything down really faithfully, she's practicing for her for her future career.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.279
But Alice, yeah, she's just trying to help her mum not worry.
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:28.799
It definitely shows some sort of reflection of the time of differences in class and like you said, what you write privately as opposed to what you are willing to tell people and tell certain people.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.240
That was really fun to do, actually.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.160
Like in the whole, you know, letters, diaries, reports kind of thing.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:56.480
Always thinking about not just who is the person who is doing the communicating and how would they be communicating, but they are aware of their own recipient and what the recipient of that communication what will be appropriate for them, what they will be expecting to hear, what they will need to hear.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.880
Like Alice's letters, she always adds a little postscript to her sister.
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.519
Her sister is reading the letters out to their mother because she's lost her sight.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:13.680
And to her sister, she is much more forthcoming, she is much more honest, she shares much more frightening things.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.920
I think that's probably the most obvious example of that.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:29.359
But it was really, it was really rewarding to do, and who knows what when is was just also kind of really oh, it was really fun to do, like in that context.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:38.880
And the physicality of the communication, like letters going missing, letters taking a long time to arrive, so information doesn't get from one place to another.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah, that was also just a really, really fun way to really fun way to write a novel, actually.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.799
Challenging, but really fun.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.440
And I really enjoyed it.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.480
I'd do it again.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.920
I'd do it again like that.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.519
You didn't want to give yourself much of a challenge for your baby, did you?
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.319
Well, I didn't know, like I didn't know at the time that this is where I was going with it.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:09.359
I don't think I started thinking about publication until like I'd had the book for I was working with the book for nearly two years.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:16.000
Like I don't think I really was pushing forward for that until probably 2021 when I took the class.
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:26.799
So this is the point of the episode where we do the all-obligatory spoilers.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:38.640
If you haven't read The Brides, please come back and join us when you have, because aspects of the book will be spoiled, including what I was so sure about and what I was so wrong about.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:44.000
How did you decide to plot when the women would see Dracula?
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.960
And they all encounter him in different ways.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:54.319
So, like Eliza sees him in this really friendly way at Budapest Castle, and he teaches her some history, and then she sees him again later.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:59.359
Whereas Alice seems to see something much more creepy and sinister straight away.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.160
So, how are you deciding who is seeing him when and how they are going to see him?
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:33.359
So Alice has what she calls the sight, which I was quite careful to never completely define, but she's always had like prophetic dreams from when she was a teenager, and she starts to have during the course of the novel like daytime visions, especially if she um touches someone, but she she can see things that other people around her can't in these different ways.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:38.480
So when she sees Dracula for the first time, she can see him for what he is.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:48.079
Um, and she also has you know, her mum and sister have an apothecary shop, she takes some medicine to try and control the nightmares, and that's a part of it too.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:55.839
So h some of his like glamour power doesn't work on her because she's taking this this herbal remedy for her nightmares.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:07.440
Um and pop culture alert moment, the um tea that she's drinking, the proper Latin name of it is uh related to Vervaine.
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:14.319
So and if you're a vampire diaries fan, Vervaine is um like an anti-vampire herb.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:21.519
So I put that in there because I just I like the vampire diaries, and it was really prevalent in pop culture when I was growing up.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:30.319
Um but she so she sees in this very like clear-sighted way that nobody else gets to, um, at least not until much later in the novel.
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:37.200
Writing a character like Dracula, it gets really easy to introduce Dredge because I can just put him in the back of a scene.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:45.039
Like when Eliza meets him in the castle, the reader's already seen him, like they're in the little funicular going up to the castle.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:52.400
He's already there, and the reader will know because there's a tall, pale man in black just just standing there.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.720
And so when he crops up later, like the reader's been knowing that that's coming.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:04.640
And that's really nice to do because you can just just put him there and the reader knows to to dread him.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:17.039
Um as far like how I decided to do it, I think it was just I wanted to feel like I wanted to feel like he was circling them, like he is stalking them.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:25.760
He already knows um one of the characters, Mafalda's Aunt Rika, from like nationalist m the nationalist movement in Hungary.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:30.800
Um and he went looking for her.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:38.079
He like he went looking for someone for people to kind of join him, essentially, and that's where he started.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:46.079
He started with people who were nationalists, like which, if you squint a bit, he is.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.039
And that's how he ha found Aunt Rika, and then he moved kind of outwards.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:58.559
He's been stalking her, and then he starts to stalk Mafalda and then Eliza, and he kind of is circling them like a shark.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:09.920
And I wanted him to just sort of pop up so for that kind of creeping dread that the reader will hopefully feel as as he circles.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:12.880
And then um, we talked about cliffhangers.
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:25.840
I ended um one section with Alice giving her mum the new address of where she's gonna be because all the ladies are going out to the country and and the address is in Transylvania.
00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:28.079
So the reader, like, they already know what's coming.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:34.880
We're gonna see, there's gonna be more Dracula, he's gonna be more present, he's he's kind of luring them in.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:36:03.519
Um I think it was important to kind of have him on the edge of the narrative until we get closer to the castle and closer to that kind of denouement, and then the reader gets to see like the full horror of what he's planning and how he really is, instead of presenting himself in these different ways to all these different women.
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.760
I just oh, it was so much fun, it was so fun to do.
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:19.360
As we see Dracula's influence spreading, because obviously we get Eliza becoming unwell, and we get the regression of Aunt Rika, she seems to be getting more and more ill.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.159
We see a lot of advice on page about what they should do.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:30.400
Yeah, windows closed, rosaries, the hanging of the garlic flowers.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.719
So, how do you paste things like this to show that the stakes are getting higher?
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.159
Like you said, he's circling them like a shark.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:41.199
Because at first it seems like Eliza's just bitten.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.639
We don't get her transformation until later.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:37:00.320
So we can we see him at points, and we're getting more advice, and you can see the stakes moving up, and you can see him kind of circling a bit closer until they get to Transylvania and go to his castle.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:09.199
So, how are you looking at pacing this just to show that it is getting that we should be dreading more even before the characters are?
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:18.079
Um I think Alice gets more and more on edge, and she's the dread because she's seeing things that nobody else is seeing.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.519
Um, so she's kind of the index, if you like.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:25.119
She's like almost like the Renfield in the original Dracula.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:34.000
She's the index of what's going on with the with Count Dracula and how much closer he's getting, or how much closer the women are getting to him.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:46.880
In terms of pacing, I like a I like a kind of not slow but medium speed reveal to kind of build up that tension in the reader.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:38:20.480
And Eliza, yeah, Eliza is bitten, so like the first part one of becoming a vampire happens and then there's quite a gap because they try and run away, but it doesn't work, although the ladies don't see it as running away, but Alice kind of does that she's getting her her mistress Eliza away from Budapest where they think he's like active, but yeah, just pacing it out in a way that felt that felt like that dread could build.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:29.199
So there's not full-on, you know, hundred miles an hour terror and horror from the middle of the book to the end.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.599
It's much more like this awful thing has happened.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:41.760
Oh, and then things seem to be getting a little better, but then this next bit, this next awful thing happens, and then oh, we're trying to escape again.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:47.199
We're oh, a nice nobleman has invited us to stay in his castle, and it's even worse.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:39:01.360
And just because nobody has the full kind of picture of what's going on except the reader, I think that probably makes it more horrifying, or at least that's what I was going for.
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:08.079
Um I'm hoping that the reader will be like screaming at the book at one point, like, what the fuck are you doing?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.400
Don't go to Transylvania.
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:12.480
Um of course.
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:19.199
I mean if you've made it full on dread from about halfway through to the end, I don't think it would have been effective.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:25.360
I think this creeping dread that we know and that Alice does kind of know, makes it work.
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:26.079
Good.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.760
I'm glad that you think so.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:52.079
Um but I mean, some of it like in terms of the kind of technical craft aspect of like pacing and stuff, some things have changed and shifted around a lot since I started writing because I went through like three or four drafts, and the first draft was a huge mess, and I rewrote the last third completely.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.599
It's completely different.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:28.159
It's almost like the kind of craft aspect came in later when I kind of started taking things more seriously and knew a bit more what I was doing, and so a lot of it is a this weird mix of like what I unconsciously feel from my own reading feels right, and overlaid with the kind of craft aspect of sitting down and actually looking at it and going, okay, it's been this long since this happened, and this needs to happen here.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.280
So, okay, these things need to move around.
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:34.800
It's it's a weird way to write a book, to be honest.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:57.840
There are some tinges of nationalism in the book, as you've already mentioned, and when they are invited to the castle, they know that he's a nationalist, and maybe that is more of a source of comfort to them because of Aunt Rika, and they know that he's had some dealings with the family, like buying some of Mafalda's aunts, so Aunt Rika's dead husband's property.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:14.639
I can see why he wants Aunt Rika because she has those maybe nationalist ideas like he does, and Mafalda, because Mafalda's of his bloodline, but I can't see why he wants Eliza.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:15.840
Really?
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:16.400
Okay.
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:19.360
So okay, okay.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:35.679
So one of my whole things with Dracula was this idea that he can take what is good about someone and twist it and turn it to his own ends, because I feel like that is a true thing that can happen with like dictators, right?
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:46.639
We see it in the world now, like taking a good belief that someone or a group of people has and kind of twisting it 90 degrees and turning it to their own nasty ends.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.239
So that's what Dracula kind of does.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:42:05.920
Like in Aunt Rika, he sees her kind of nationalist fervor and also how she can be quite like strong and opinionated in kind of similar to Mafalda.
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:18.960
And he sees in her that he can twist that to his own uh ends, and he can turn her into this like brutal beast-like creature to to be a source of terror.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:26.239
Because of and and that's more obvious, like as you go through the novel and learn about the things that she's done in her past.
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:40.079
Mafalda, she's you know, strong and forthright and focused, and she's kind of a natural-born leader in a time when she couldn't really be one, so he can take that and twist it to his own ends.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:52.719
Eliza is a much softer character, she's much softer, she's much sweeter, she's very like morally good, but she also she really wants to be a mother, she really wants to care for people, she's very loving.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:43:12.639
And when he sees her and speaks to her in the castle um in Budapest when they go on their little tourist trip, she's talking about she looks after her sister, um, and she's they talk about children, they talk about Dracula's own children from his like human life, though she doesn't know that.
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:43.840
And she shows that she shows him inadvertently that she has that like maternal instinct, that care, and he wants to take that and turn it to his own ends, like when he's wanting to make lots of vampires and kind of take over in this very kind of conquer the world attitude, which is like carried over from his human life, she she is of use to him in that way because she can she can help him with that.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:51.599
So he's like taken something really good and really um positive in all of them and like turns it to his own ends.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:54.320
Ah, okay.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:44:04.639
So when he says desire is what drives a man, and he's talking about Eliza saying he Here is my lady, my own queen, who will mother my children, tend them and teach them and send them forth.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.599
That's not just about her need, that's about his need as well.
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:08.719
Yeah.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:09.360
Ah.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:10.480
Yeah.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:11.599
Okay.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.760
That makes more sense then.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:21.599
I just I was a little bit wary of that because it's not because it's less it is less obvious.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.320
Clearly I needed to edit that a bit harder.
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:26.079
That could be just me.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:39.440
But I just really enjoyed the thought of being able to of his being able to twist what's good about someone into suing his own purposes.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:50.719
And it feels like quite horrific because I've I set Eliza up as this like really moral good person, so when you see her later, it should be quite a shock.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.159
It's a shock to the characters.
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.159
I'm trying I'm trying to be respectful with this question.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:01.119
Um but it's a really unfair position to put Lucy and Joseph in.
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:10.320
But Josie wants to marry Mafalda, and Lucy is pretty convinced that Mafalda will say no, but obviously we find out that she doesn't say no.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:16.079
She says yes, but she has conditions which will allow Lucy to remain with her.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:22.239
And Mafalda says that she feels like this is the best way for them to be together.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.840
Lucy tells her it's unfair to both her and Joseph to have her as kind of half a wife.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.559
I mean, do you think Mafalda is being unfair?
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:39.039
And in a modern society, and I'm trying not to look at it that way, there are a lot more restrictions on love, and I think she would be unfair.
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:45.039
But at the time, and this is again going back to the challenges of what is socially acceptable of the time.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:51.280
I don't think it would have been socially acceptable for Lucia Mafalda to live as wife and wife, basically.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.920
So is Mafalda doing maybe the best she can in a bad situation?
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:58.320
Mafalda definitely thinks that.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:07.760
Like she definitely believes that she is doing what is best for them, and she's used to being very decisive, so she's made the decision.
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:19.519
And the thing is, like Lucia Mafalda, the whole way through the novel, until we get to this point, which I've just been listening to in the audiobook, actually, because I just got the audio recording last week, and it's so good.
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:20.719
The actors are amazing.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.199
Um, so this is really fresh in my mind, this bit.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:31.679
She she genuinely believes it, but the whole novel neither of them ever really envisages like them breaking up.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:37.440
They both believe that they want to have a life together, but they never actually properly communicate about what that looks like.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:46.559
Lucy thinks that like she says at one point she might like to run a school, but she doesn't have enough money to do that.
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:55.840
And there was a bit which I cut for pacing where she kind of imagines what that would be like living with Mafalda and running a school together.
00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:07.840
But she she kind of envisions that they'll be able to like live together like they do now, and Mafalda will maybe run the business and she'll be a writer or whatever.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:28.960
She has never envisioned this life, and Lucy thinks there's there's ways forward, and Mafalda does not, and they've never communicated about it, and so this is where they've kind of ended up with Mafalda going off and thinking, Well, I've made the right decision, I have made this sacrifice, and Lucy does not see it like that at all.
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.239
But she sees it almost like Mafalda having her cake and eating it.
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:38.639
And I just I don't think that Lucy is wrong.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:52.800
I think Mafalda's being really unfair, but in part because she's made a huge decision and hasn't consulted Lucy at all on something that affects her so deeply because she just thinks she's right, she thinks she's right all the time.
00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:01.599
Um and it's come out in this really difficult, awful, like kind of soul-sredding way.
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:08.079
Like Lucy feels so betrayed, and yeah, so so TLDR.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.719
Yeah, I think Mafalda's being unfair.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.400
Mafalda always has the power in their relationship.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:20.400
There's points where you see in letters she's talking about, oh, you know, this woman's brushing my hair too hard, you know.
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:21.519
I wish you were here to do it.
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:22.480
And I think.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.559
What are you doing for Lucy?
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:26.719
Because it seems like Lucy's doing everything for you.
00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:29.679
Lucy's the one rubbing the lavender oil on your head.
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:36.320
Lucy's the one who's maybe having to make compromises because like Mafalda's made this decision about what their life will look like.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:48.800
Lucy's had no part of it, and it does seem like, and we see more of Mafalda's decisions, which we're gonna get onto in in just a sec, but Mafalda has the power and Lucy doesn't.
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:50.719
I think that's really sad.
00:48:51.599 --> 00:49:00.159
I think Lucy has more power than she thinks she does, and she does realise that after Mafalda does this, she has more power than she thinks she does.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:09.440
And Mafalda at one point like lays out for her, oh, you're gonna have a sad, bookish life um with just one maid, and I feel so bad, I don't want that for you.
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.119
But to Lucy, that sounds fine.
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:13.199
Like she thinks that would be fine.
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:21.519
She has a power to walk away, which she kind of almost doesn't know until it happens.
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:43.440
But yeah, Mafalda has all the power because of class, because Lucy has a her family's not very interested in her, and she obviously lives with Mafalda and her family, she's grown up with them to an extent, and Lucy just adores her and like admires her and loves her in a very like uncomplicated way.
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:48.000
But I think a lot of it is back to class again.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:50:09.360
There's like that class dynamic which just influences most of the relationships in the book class and money, as well as Mafalda's personality, just kind of I don't want to use the word taint it, but affect it in a way that is not positive.
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:19.760
Up until Mafalda does the thing, which is what my next question revolves around, it feels like Lucy likes her more than Mafalda likes Lucy.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.639
I think it's that's really interesting that you think that.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:25.519
I did.
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:29.199
Up until, up until the thing.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:37.519
I feel like because um we see Lucy's diary, like Lucy, we get her through her own, it's her own mind.
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:43.920
She's it's very interior, she thinks a lot, and she's in a place where she's not very busy.
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:57.519
When she and Mafalda are separated, she's not very busy, she's just staying with Eliza, and they're just like doing social things and taking food to the poor and like doing genteel lady things, and all she does really is miss Mafalda.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:27.039
Whereas Mafalda, when she's away in Budapest, she is busy, she is busy all day, she is working on her uncle's estate, she is helping look after her aunt who is so sick, she is, you know, basically contributing to the running of a really big household and dealing with all this stuff, so she does not necessarily have the time to sit around thinking about how much she misses Lucy, and we also only see her letters, we don't see like diaries from her, her kind of interior thoughts.
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.239
So she's telling Lucy what's going on rather than just writing pages about how much she misses her, although she does miss her.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:44.559
So I see why you could get the impression that Lucy is more in love with Mafalda than Mafalda is with Lucy, especially in the light of what happens later.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:55.119
But I would say because of the choices that Mafalda makes, like she's she's willing to do a lot in her mind from her perspective.
00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:00.960
Like she's the heroine of her own story, she believes in the rightness of her own actions until right at the end.
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:05.760
So she does view it as like a sacrifice that she's making to marry Joseph.
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:18.559
And I don't agree with her, but so to her, to her mind, she's showing Lucy like a lot of love in the actions that she takes later in the book.
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:23.199
But I do see why you would think in the beginning that Lucy loves her more.
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:24.559
I do see it.
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:26.880
It could just be a love language thing.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:32.400
Possibly, but Lucy does fall in love with her first, so there is that.
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:42.559
It's interesting to me that this plays into Mafalda's reason to actually accept transformation because Eliza doesn't choose, but Mafalda does.
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:49.280
And obviously, in the original Dracula, we have no way to know how and why they ended up there.
00:52:49.599 --> 00:53:03.440
But here, with we see we see how with Bika and Eliza, but with Mafalda, we see exactly why, and obviously that is something that interested you, but it definitely added an interesting dynamic to their relationship.
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:05.760
So I was like, oh shit, and we'll get into it.
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.599
I thought that Mafalda was the one in the asylum at the end, not Lucy.
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:18.159
And maybe I'm I don't know, maybe it's where I miss things, but that is really that is what I thought.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:27.119
And when you find out that Mafalda's like, well, this this is how we can be together, you know, he's turned me, but you're mine.
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.920
It's kind of like, oh I love that so much.
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:42.800
Um, yeah, my whole, my whole like this, maybe this was the trickiest bit, like deciding when to do that reveal of who the woman in the asylum is, um, who and how.
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:58.480
And I moved that around like quite a few times, but I think the book does play fair with the reader, and if you reread, you will probably see all of the things um that add up to it being Lucy in the asylum.
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:00.559
Oh, it feels really weird to be talking about this.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:01.679
Oh my god.
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.280
Be talking so openly about spoilers.
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:15.440
Um, because I think I've played fair with the reader, like if the if you're really like paying attention, I think it is relatively obvious.
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:16.719
Well, maybe not.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:17.280
I don't know.
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:18.639
It's easy for me to say.
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:25.599
Um I I'm so interested to know like what people think and like what impression more people get.
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:27.920
Okay, well tell you what, let's let's talk about this now.
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.679
So, did you plan to keep it somewhat ambiguous who she was?
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:33.119
Yeah.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.159
Yeah, I wanted it to be a mystery until until the end, until the final reveal.
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:47.280
And you get like breadcrumbs as you go along, like the the husband is Sir Joseph, and this is his wife, Lady Lowell.
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:52.239
It's like, okay, so not only is she in the asylum, but whoever it is has married Joseph.
00:54:52.559 --> 00:55:23.840
And it does kind of point to Mafalda for much of the novel, but I think there's I've left hints, many hints about who it actually is, and I just ultimately like I don't believe that Mafalda would have left Lucy there, whereas Lucy leaves Mafalda in the castle at the at the end.
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:38.159
I think up until the point when you start to see this, because you there's this whole thing about oh, there was a carriage accident and people died, and you you know that's not true, but you don't know what actually happened, and the marrying of Joseph.
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:45.519
I was so hung up on the name and so sure in my own rightness that when you did breadcrumb things, I was so blind to it.
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:51.440
I was like, no, I I I know this is Mafalda as Lady Lowell, it is Mafalda, and obviously it wasn't.
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:53.920
So I like the fact that I was wrong about that.
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:56.320
Oh, that makes me really happy.
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.960
I'm glad that you're not like disappointed.
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:04.159
Um, but this is something I was rereading Dracula recently because I hadn't read it just for fun.
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:16.800
And Jonathan Harker says that when Mina Haaker's been bitten and she's like on her way to turning into a vampire, he says that he loves her so much, he would do it, he would do it too, and be a vampire with her.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:33.920
And I think that if it were reversed and if Mafalda was making the choice, do I stay or not, I think she would would make the sacrifice because she doesn't care so much about being like moral or good, and Lucy really kind of does.
00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:36.880
But yeah, Mafalda chooses, she makes a choice.
00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:39.360
Mafalda feels very powerless, a lot of the novel.
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:51.280
Even though we see her being like quite decisive and bold, it's like there's things like she needs a man's signature on loads of documents, and she struggles when she has to go out at night.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:57:02.480
It's like a whole big thing and a whole big plan, and she ends up in trouble and kind of has to punch her way out of it, which is a really satisfying moment when she gets to punch someone horrible in the face.
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:17.440
Um, so like, and then like when we get to the end where she is making that choice, part of it is because she wants to have the power that she feels she's kind of not necessarily owed, but like ready for, able to handle.
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:35.119
And so being like Dracula's right hand, she can be free of the shackles of the kind of benevolent sexism that like contain her, but also there is like being able to be with Lucy in the way that she wants.
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:43.119
But that choice aspect was a really big deal for me that Eliza Enrique don't get to choose, but Mafalda does.
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:47.599
That's another reason why I can see her marrying Jonathan would be sensible because she needs a man's signature.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:53.039
She can just say, you know, oh husband, you know, clearly I'm so capable, but I do need you to do this one thing for me.
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.760
And Jonathan's gonna just sign what she needs him to sign.
00:57:56.159 --> 00:57:58.239
Like, she doesn't like him.
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.199
Mafalda doesn't really like him as a person at all.
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:02.400
No, you can tell that.
00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:04.320
Like, why does he think I would care about sheep?
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:08.079
Yeah, she thinks he's really boring, and he is like a little bit boring.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:14.400
Lucy acknowledges he can be a bit boring, but he's got this path in life that he's kind of grateful to have.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:29.119
And because like he says, um, Sir Gerald, who's Mafalda's dad, didn't have to give him like the the estate to look after while he was still alive, he didn't have to do any of that, he didn't have to like help him along in any way.
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:35.199
So he's got this path in life that he's grateful to have, and he's really like dedicated to it, and he cares a lot about it.
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.239
And so Mafalda just sees he's like really boring.
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:39.679
Why do I care about sheep?
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:53.440
Lucy kind of sees more that he's a bit like her, like this family, the Lyell family, have helped her, like they've helped him, and she feels like an affinity with him in that way.
00:58:54.159 --> 00:59:06.480
They are closer friends than Mafalda has ever been with Joseph, who's like her second or third cousin or something, it's not close enough to be gross, I promise.
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:18.320
Um so she Lucy feels that a bit more like respect for him and friendship with him, even though when he says that he wants to marry Mafalda, she basically wants to kill him.
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:29.119
So I think the fact that Lucy does end up marrying him because she feels that that is the right choice at that time.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:37.599
I don't think it's as jarring, and I don't think he's gonna have as an unhappy life with Lucy as he would have with Mafalda.
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:40.320
I think if they got married, he'd be fucking miserable.
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:46.480
I think they make kind of a sweet couple, even though you know Mafalda is Lucy's big love.
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:50.559
I mean they have kids, so yeah, clearly there's enough there.
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:56.000
Yeah, like I think I feel like this was kind of a choice for a lot of women in history.
00:59:56.159 --> 01:00:01.119
Like, marrying for romantic love is such a new idea, really, in like the grand scheme of things.
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:10.800
So for Lucy to say, I don't feel romantic love for this man, but I feel liking and like friendship, platonic love for this man.
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.800
So this this is actually a good reasonable choice for me to make.
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:20.159
Like, I respect him, he respects me, we get on well, we're quite similar.
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:21.679
It feels like a good bet.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:26.239
And I really I get to worry a little bit that the reader might feel like let down by that.
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:36.239
But it feels like to me, Lucy's kind of absorbed a little bit of Mafalda's practicality and like toughness in being able to make that choice for herself.
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:40.639
Maybe that was what I was going for, anyway.
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:43.119
Another thing I was really surprised about.
01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:55.039
So okay, I was surprised and not surprised because obviously I thought Lady Lowell in the asylum was Mafalda, but I thought that the brides could have been Eliza, Lucy, and Mafalda.
01:00:55.599 --> 01:01:02.159
And so, what do you think that says about the sort of societal prejudices of our age that I assume?
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:03.519
This is so bad.
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:22.800
I assumed that Rika would be too old to be a bride, and I am definitely closer to her age than I am for Mafalda's, but it's this pop culture thing of like you said, they're always sexy and in their 90s, and it's a very kind of more sex-driven role that I just kind of thought, oh, Rika's just too old, and yeah, I'm probably not I'm probably not far off her age.
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:24.480
How old do you reckon she is?
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:27.679
So I'm 39 and she's probably younger than me.
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.559
Okay, so she's younger than me, and I assume she was too old to be uh a blog.
01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:34.719
In my head, she's in her 30s.
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:37.599
Like Lady Maria is probably into her like late 40s.
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:40.000
So Mafalda's mum, she's like in her late 40s.
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:41.760
Mafalda's 21.
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:48.480
Um, but and yeah, Rika is somewhere like in the middle, she's probably in her mid-30s.
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:53.440
So she's and before she got really sick, she was like gorgeous.
01:01:53.679 --> 01:02:00.079
This gorgeous, like glamorous, socialite, intelligent, like society lady.
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:05.679
Um, so yeah, she's she is definitely hot enough to be to be a bride.
01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:08.159
And she like she looks like Mafalda.
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:18.239
They're kind of all all of them have like this really strong familial resemblance to both each other and ultimately to Dracula, who is their like relation.
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:24.239
Um so yeah, she's she's definitely hot enough to be a bride.
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:53.679
But what does that say about I'm also gonna say me, because obviously I you absorb things through what is around you that I assumed that I feel like I feel like because our society, like they all got married a lot younger and had kids a lot younger, but also kept having kids for longer, so like the big age gap between Mefaldo's mum, Lady Maria, and Aunt Rika is more maybe more likely then than now.
01:02:53.840 --> 01:03:05.760
And we just have like assumptions about if you talk someone's talking about my aunt, you imagine a woman in like her 50s or 60s or something, where that wouldn't have been the case in that time period when people were getting married younger.
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:07.360
Yeah.
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:12.000
I know, but yeah, I I promise she was like glamorous and gorgeous.
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:13.840
So definitely hot enough to be a bride then.
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:14.800
It could be hot enough.
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:24.400
It couldn't have been Eliza Lucy and Mafalda because I was so convinced that Mafalda was Lady Lowell, but I just it never occurred to me that Rika might be.
01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:29.360
Yeah, there are hints, there are hints about who it is.
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:33.360
But I'm like, I love I kind of love that you didn't pick up on it.
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:40.400
Because I would love people to reread this and to go back, it's like I do with mysteries and stuff, to go back and be like, oh wow, I did not see that.
01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:41.599
Oh wow, I missed that.
01:03:41.679 --> 01:04:13.360
Oh, like I really enjoy rereading my favourite books, and I know not everybody feels that way, but I feel like you miss out on a lot if you don't reread because it's such a different experience to reading something for the first time, and I love I love books where there's that, like there is that element of mystery, whether it's a mystery novel or not, but you kind of you get to see more of what the author's been doing, and I just find that really satisfying when I read it, so I hope people have the same experience.
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:21.440
It makes sense because some of what was happening happened before Eliza even got there with like locking up the windows and stuff like that.
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:37.920
So it does make sense, it's just yeah, I was so convinced she's too old, but no, it it makes complete sense, and then and I know I saw the signs, but chose to I chose to ignore them in folklore and pop culture.
01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:44.159
We see a lot of rules and advice when people are kind of suspicious of the supernatural.
01:04:44.320 --> 01:05:01.760
And I'm gonna bring up one of my favourite horror films, American Werewolf in London, and they get told two things, which is beware the more beware the moon and stay off the moors, and obviously they do neither, and that happens right at the beginning, like right at the beginning of the film, and then the whole thing is about him sort of turning into a werewolf and blah blah blah.
01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:05.360
Um, people should have seen it, so that shouldn't be a spoiler.
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:33.280
We see at various points there are innkeepers that aren't really trying to be that hospitable, and again, it seems like the dread of the advice given builds up until the last innkeeper and his wife, who they stay with before they go to the castle, and the innkeeper's wife flat out says, Do not go, it is dangerous, and gives Lucy a rosary, and she's very insistent.
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:34.880
Lucy's like, Oh no, no, but I'm not Catholic.
01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:38.000
She's like, No, fucking take this, don't go.
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:44.079
If you're gonna go, fucking take this and try and be safe to sum up, basically.
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.519
So, how do you balance again things like that?
01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:59.760
I've been asking you a lot about pacing because it's something that, especially with your book, has really interested me because of different timelines and the building of the dread, and sort of deciding when to pigeonhole certain things.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:08.559
Because there are points with Eliza where we definitely know Eliza is sort of basically turned before she gets there.
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:10.480
Things with the eyes.
01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:13.599
Someone says that she's not in the mirror.
01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:14.079
Yeah.
01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:16.239
And there are all various things like that.
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:23.760
But yeah, we're still getting advice, even though by that point, as a reader, we should be pretty sure I think she's she's basically there now.
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:30.719
And um, oh, the feeding of the duck blood soup seems to be the only thing to help her, not the bone broth.
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:33.519
And it's like, oh the fact that that's blood is very significant.
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:37.360
God, maybe that is an odd to twilight.
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:39.119
I hope that's not an odd to twilight.
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:39.840
I didn't mean it.
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:43.760
I didn't see it as a no, because I think they yeah, I didn't see it as an odd twilight.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:50.079
Yeah, the idea that like animal blood can help a bit, like can feed you a bit, but not really.
01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:52.239
Um but but what else could they do?
01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:58.239
And I actually felt like when the woman was feed making that and saying, No, give her this, this is the thing she needs.
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:01.840
It's like, hmm, have you have you maybe dealt with this before?
01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.159
Because you seem to know what to do.
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:11.039
No, it's just like apparently, like it's it's kind of the thing that your Polish grandma might give you to make you feel better.
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:16.320
And I just like I love that there's it's like, oh, this will make you feel better.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:19.760
Oh wait, or it'll help you if you're turning into a vampire.
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:27.599
It just feels like it's a little bit that turning like a good thing into a into a thing that serves Dracula and his purposes.
01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:28.480
I don't know.
01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:34.400
Um, but yeah, getting all the advice of like what to do, I kind of feel like so.
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:40.400
You're talking about American Werewolf in London, where people go and like break the rules they've just been given and wonder why bad stuff happens.
01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:42.800
That was one of the big examples that came up to me.
01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:46.960
And I do love that film, and I love an opportunity to talk about it and bring it up as an example.
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:51.199
But I think throughout most of the brides, they follow the rules.
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:53.679
Like the doctor, um, Dr.
01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:59.760
Arminius, who comes and attends Eliza, um, he lays out the rules and they they follow them.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:04.079
They follow the rules that they're given for the most part, I think, I think.
01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:11.199
And it still goes, it still goes awry because they're always trying, especially Alice, like she's always trying to do the right thing.
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:19.039
She's always trying to protect people, she's always trying to like help people and make sure that they are okay and safe and healthy and that they get away from him.
01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:35.840
And it still keeps going wrong, like doing things right, but the forces that are kind of against them, Dracula, is just too too powerful, I guess, too, like so many steps ahead.
01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:49.199
And I felt that that was kind of almost like part of the tragedy of it, that you can do all the right things, you can stay indoors, you can lock the window shutters, you can hang garlic flowers everywhere, you can have your crucifix.
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:57.520
And still still you end up in the castle, still you get bitten, still bad things happen.
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:02.000
And I found that really sad and I liked it.
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:07.439
What I'm about to ask you would mean that your novel would not work.
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:08.479
Okay, go on.
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:10.479
But is there anything that they could do?
01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:20.319
Because alright, Lucy obviously, years later, has a relapse because she sees Dracula, and this is when Dracula is in London for the events of Dracula.
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:28.079
But up until that point, she seems kind of fine, but we know that his presence is there circling, but that distance seems to help.
01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:35.279
So is there anything if you could go in and create like almost a bonus alternate ending?
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:36.560
What would you say to them?
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:39.840
Like, no, this is what you need to do, and you think it would actually work?
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.000
Because what they tried didn't.
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:51.199
I don't know, because like the only way to get away from him is to like run away.
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:57.520
Once you've been bitten, though, it's a bit of a question as to like what happens what happens to you.
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:01.279
Do you become a vampire or not?
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:05.840
I think I came down on the side of not, but like he's vengeful.
01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:22.079
Like he part of his going to London in the events of Dracula the novel, like he's still got his whole master plan that he's working on, but being able to get at Lucy, who's got away from him, is like a bonus, so he can he can get at her.
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:24.399
And it's a scene like in Dracula.
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:25.039
I'd love that.
01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:25.840
That was so fun to do.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:28.159
It felt so fanfiction-y, I really enjoyed it.
01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:32.800
Um and so she's run away, but like there's nowhere far enough.
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:40.960
And the only reason that he doesn't kind of finish her off is because the events of Dracula, the novel, are going on, so he kind of doesn't have the space to do it.
01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:55.760
So in terms of like what they could do, I don't think I don't know that there is any course of action that the characters could take that would save them all from him.
01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.479
And that's like part of the tragedy of it, I guess.
01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:09.680
Like the only person who sees clearly does not have like the social power to remove everybody from danger.
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:17.840
And yeah, I think just it's just like a one-way street to Dracula's castle.
01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:22.159
Like there's no there's kind of no question about where we're gonna end up.
01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:25.279
It's just how we get there and how long does it take.
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:34.720
At least it doesn't end up as tragedy for everyone because Lucy kind I know she ends up in an asylum for a while, but she does seem to have a reasonably good life.
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:37.840
And Alice has a great life, she gets a great husband.
01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:41.119
Yeah, she does, she gets the best husband, I think.
01:11:42.159 --> 01:11:47.439
Well, I think she's romantically interested in her husband, which is a bonus, which is a bonus, yeah.
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:48.640
And he's very sweet.
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:52.000
I liked him very much um as a character.
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.159
Like her husband is lovely.
01:11:54.399 --> 01:12:01.119
Um But I think, yeah, I wrote the epilogue actually really early on, and it went through some edits.
01:12:01.520 --> 01:12:10.880
Um, but it's one of like the pieces of the very first draft that still exists in more or less the same form.
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:15.680
So because I was like, I was always going there to that point.
01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:25.600
But um one of the very few changes my agent suggested I make was the last paragraph, so that it's not quite rounded off and it's still a bit creepy.
01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:29.359
Um and I really like that, like reading it through.
01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:32.720
I think it was one of I think it was a really good idea.
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:48.319
Um that Lucy, this idea that Lucy like she might have survived everything, but she's like there might be more, there might be more vampires just because Dracula's gone and the his quote unquote brides are gone, that doesn't mean they're all gone.
01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:51.279
So I'm gonna like I'm still gonna be prepared.
01:12:52.880 --> 01:13:01.279
And yeah, I loved having that like additional creepy ending because it just I love that.
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:11.359
I love that in a book where it's still it's mostly when you're mostly done, but there's that tiny bit of it being like slightly open-ended, like, oh is the horror really over.
01:13:14.079 --> 01:13:17.680
It's definitely something that puts the hairs on your back of a neck up.
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:20.399
I'm glad you think so.
01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:30.319
Thank you so much for coming and talking to me about the brides.
01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:40.960
I thought it was really cool the way it was written with all of the journal entries and the letters, and I was so here for their kind of journey further and further towards tragedy.
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:44.479
Yeah, that's such a good way of putting it.
01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:46.880
Their journey further and further towards tragedy.
01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:48.319
I'm gonna use that.
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:56.960
And I'm glad I was glad to be proved wrong because I I love that when I'm so sure about something, and it's like plot twist moment.
01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:58.960
You're not as smart as you think you are.
01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.520
I love it when authors do that.
01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:05.840
Well, now you can like reread it and uh see all the things you missed.
01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:10.319
So I think I've read enough that I'm quite confident with my with what I think a lot of the time.
01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:13.840
So when someone does prove me wrong, I love it.
01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:15.760
That's awesome.
01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:17.039
Yeah, I agree.
01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:18.880
A moment of humility.
01:14:19.119 --> 01:14:22.319
I'm really I'm really not as smart as I thought I was.
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:32.319
Well, thank you so much for having me on and letting me ramble about all this stuff and talk about my spoilers, which has been awesome.
01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:35.600
I like this isn't something you get to do very much.
01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:37.279
So thank you very much.
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:38.319
It's been great.
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.560
I like to talk spoilers because otherwise, how much of the book am I going to be asked to talk to you about?
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:46.479
Maybe like first two chapters or first two parts in your case.
01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:48.079
Like, no, I want to.
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:49.840
I I've read the whole book.
01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.359
I want to talk to you about the ending, and that's why I have a spoiler section.
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:59.119
It for for my own to indulge my own pleasure.
01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:00.479
That's awesome.
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:01.520
That's great.
01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:05.279
Literally why I started doing it.
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.239
I think that's like excellent reasoning.
01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:22.319
That's all this might be a bit of a preemptive question because I mean we are we are literally on basically the Eve of the Brides coming out, but are you working on anything else?
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:23.359
I am.
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:32.479
Um I am in edits right now uh with my second book, which I genuinely don't know how much I'm allowed to talk about.
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:40.000
Um so it's another like historical gothic horror title.
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:46.960
Um and it's about Vikings, cursed archaeology, and female rage.
01:15:48.159 --> 01:15:50.479
So you would brand this as another feminist book?
01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:51.520
Oh god, yeah.
01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:54.960
I'm not I don't think I'm ever gonna write a book that's not somehow feminist.
01:15:55.119 --> 01:15:59.279
I'm a feminist, so like that's always gonna come out.
01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:03.039
I'm excited to to read that because I I enjoyed this.
01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:06.319
There are so many things in it that you did that I thought were really cool.
01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:11.920
So I'm I'm very keen to read future things that you have coming out.
01:16:12.239 --> 01:16:13.439
Oh, thank you very much.
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:14.560
I really appreciate that.
01:16:14.720 --> 01:16:18.960
That is awesome to hear for my like massive yet fragile writer ego.
01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:27.520
Well, good luck with launch, and I look forward to seeing how well your book is received.
01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:29.359
Oh, fingers crossed.
01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:30.399
Thank you.
01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:39.439
Thank you for hanging out with me and Charlotte today.
01:16:39.760 --> 01:16:54.319
I really hoped you enjoyed the episode and that you finish it with maybe the hairs on the back of your neck sticking up a little bit, and that you come away from the episode knowing that no one in the book fucking sparkles.
01:16:54.640 --> 01:17:00.159
Follow me on Instagram at DMythPod and join me again soon for more episodes.
01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:17.119
I've been Lauren, and today I've been turning pages and drinking blood with Charlotte Crossing.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:28.239
Hi, I'm Lauren, and this is D Myth Turns a Page.
00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:38.159
My special episodes where I travel across to Transylvania, I definitely don't sparkle in the sun, and I become one of the brides with Charlotte Cross.
00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:49.439
So hi Charlotte, thank you so much for coming to talk to me about your debut.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:50.880
And we are so close now.
00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:59.119
We are literally doing this two days, two days before your masterpiece is released onto the public.
00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:00.320
So thank you so much.
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:01.119
Two days.
00:01:01.439 --> 00:01:03.119
Thank you so much for finding the time.
00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:05.040
Well, thank you so much for having me.
00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:05.840
It's fantastic.
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:08.079
I am having the weirdest week.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:09.120
It's really crazy.
00:01:09.200 --> 00:01:11.599
But no, I'm so happy to be here and to guess to talk to you about it.
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:15.840
So your book, The Brides, is described as feminist gothic horror.
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.519
And this is something I've never asked before, but I'm really interested.
00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:24.799
So, what as an author do you think makes fiction feminist?
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:32.400
And do you think that sometimes that word is thrown around too frivolously to describe retellings now?
00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:54.239
So I feel like anything where women are given like subjectivity, agency, kind of get slapped with the label feminist because so much of not I'm gonna say literature, but I don't even mean like literature capital L, like the great Western canon, whatever.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:02:00.480
So much of what is written is male-centered because some much of it was just men doing the writing.
00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:09.120
But I think, yeah, anything, anything that's properly female-centered with female agency gets given the label feminist.
00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:17.599
So I do worry that it's like a little bit diluted, maybe, but I will say the brides is definitely feminist.
00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:25.120
Yeah, like the characters they are making their own choices, they are choices that are sometimes contrary to the society that they live in.
00:02:25.199 --> 00:02:27.360
It's definitely female focused.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:33.199
The male characters are kind of very much like on the edges, and they're like adjuncts of the female characters.
00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:39.120
In the way that we've seen, you know, a woman is always someone's wife, someone's daughter.
00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:44.560
I've I've kind of realized after the fact that that's sort of what I'd done with the male characters in the brides.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.120
Oops, not sorry.
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:53.199
There is an author that we've had on who I've sort of developed a friendship with, and she always refers to my partner as Mr.
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.199
Lauren, and it's like, oh my god, you know what?
00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:56.639
I'm good with that, and he hates it.
00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:57.680
But she's like, Oh, what's Mr.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:58.319
Lauren doing?
00:02:58.400 --> 00:02:59.599
I was like, No, I love that.
00:02:59.840 --> 00:03:02.400
I do that with some of my friends and their partners.
00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:10.400
Do you think the idea of a feminist book is different when we look at a retelling of a previously more male-centric story?
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:44.400
Because obviously, with Dracula, Dracula is a vampire, but he's a man, and then the main characters that we have are men, and it does feel like a little bit more of a damsel in distress thing with the women in the story, rather than say, and I'm gonna get into some of what you said with women making choices outside society in a little bit, but yeah, we have a retelling that is female-centric that was previously male-centric, and we see that a lot in a lot of the retellings that I've done.
00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:54.479
I mean, I think female characters in older stories have a tendency to just be kind of ignored, not given their own subjectivity, be objects, be adjuncts.
00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.439
Dracula actually starts kind of alright.
00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:03.919
Like when we first meet female characters, we see Lucy Westenra and Mina Harker.
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.400
Well, when she gets married, she's Mina Harker.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.960
And Mina actually starts off really well.
00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:20.720
Like she's quite tough, she's got a job, she's very focused, she's kind of she feels like not even of that time.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.079
But Lucy is like the princess, the damsel in distress.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:29.120
But later on in the narrative, Mina ends up kind of being in the damsel in distress role.
00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:30.079
And I find that really irritating.
00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:47.519
I love Dracula, but I find it really irritating when I read it because I feel like Bram Stoker kind of did Mina dirty, like she's starts off so tough and with so much agency and subjectivity, and then it kind of goes away, which irritates me so much.
00:04:47.759 --> 00:05:00.319
But when we're doing when we're retelling stories from a female perspective, I think we are kind of almost naturally going to put it in a more feminist lens.
00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:05.199
I mean, when you turn a side character into a main character, you see things through their eyes, right?
00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:10.800
And through their choices and what they want, and they are the center of the narrative.
00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:15.120
So therefore it almost happens by definition, I guess.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:20.480
Yeah, I feel like that's kind of what happened with the brides, actually.
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.360
Taking characters who are they're just Dracula's brides, they're on the edge of the narrative.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.720
Bram Stoker tells us almost nothing about these women.
00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.360
So putting them in the middle of the narrative is just gonna turn it into a feminist book.
00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:41.040
Because why, like, why bother write a book with boring people, boring women who just follow the men in the story around?
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:42.000
That would be so dull.
00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:47.519
You said in your acknowledgments that humans love to embellish and reimagine our favourite stories.
00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:53.680
So, why do you think that is when there's countless untold untold potential news stories out there?
00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.199
Why do we sometimes fixate on stories that are already told?
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:02.720
And we see that with countless versions of the same thing coming out and coming out and coming out.
00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:13.839
Not that I'm saying that's what you've done, but you know, with a lot of we're in a real almost resurgence of feminist retellings of things, and you are now part of that.
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.839
So I'm interested in what you think.
00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:21.920
I think like we've done it with like telling, retelling our old stories for such a long time.
00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:33.439
Like literally all the ancient Greek plays about their myths, which were old even to them, so they're retelling those stories, and that's thousands of years ago.
00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:35.360
Like, humans just love to do that.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.319
We've always loved to do it, and we still love to do it.
00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:43.279
But I think in terms of telling stories that haven't been told, we we still love to do that too.
00:06:43.439 --> 00:07:09.199
We still want to do new things, and we still want to do new things with older stories, especially like right now, and for the last, you know, the period of time that we've had real diversity in who gets to write, who gets to create stories, being able to step away from this very white male colonial imperial view.
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.519
I heard it described once as like art is like a house with loads of windows.
00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:19.680
And when you only have the white male creative person, you're only looking out of one window.
00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:27.120
So when we have diversity and this diversity of viewpoints, we can look out of all of the windows of the house and we get we can get views on all of these old stories.
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:30.480
I think you don't want to be derivative.
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:36.480
I think it's easy to get lazy and like not to um get myself cancelled or anything.
00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:40.000
But do we really need another Marvel movie with stuff just being blown up?
00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:42.000
I think you need to like it.
00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:46.959
It was important to me when I was writing The Brides that I was doing something different.
00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:49.839
Like, I wasn't just rehashing Dracula.
00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:55.519
It was important that I was taking the old story and still moving it forward in some way.
00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.399
So, spoiler, not spoiler, The Brides is obviously about the Brides of Dracula.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:05.439
Why do you think that they have lived on in pop culture and we still see their influence?
00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:12.079
Like, even in one of the most recent Resident Evil games, there are characters that are kind of inspired by them.
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.519
So, why do you think people are so interested in them?
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:22.319
Maybe not as much as Dracula himself, but they still hold their own real special place in pop culture.
00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:24.639
Okay, so I feel like it's two things.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:38.000
One of those things is because in the adaptations they're always like sexy and in their 90s, and they're all like even in the book, they're kind of like sexually predatory and aggressive and transgressive for the the morals of the time.
00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:47.519
So there's the kind of male gays sexy aspect, but more than that, like I feel like they're a question that Bram Stoker never answers.
00:08:47.679 --> 00:08:53.679
He like never goes into detail about who these women are, where they came from, what they're doing there, anything at all.
00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.039
We don't see any of that in in the original Dracula.
00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:02.240
So it means that we can kind of create our own answers to that.
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:15.440
And I think, yeah, that's maybe why people in all different media, like video games, movies, books, kind of keep revisiting the brides to answer that question in a new way or a different way, or put a different light on it or something.
00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:18.559
And obviously, I'm assuming you are a fan of Dracula.
00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:20.159
Of course, yes.
00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:22.320
So, how did the story come about?
00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:29.679
Because you mentioned in your author's note that at first you were ashamed of your own arrogance, thinking that you had something to add.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:37.519
Yeah, because you know, Dracula is so like everywhere in our culture.
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:44.559
Everyone who knows who Dracula is, everyone knows who he is, what he can do, his history, like we just we all know that, right?
00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:50.879
And putting him in my own story felt kind of felt kind of arrogant.
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.440
I pushed through that because I just got possessed.
00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:59.279
I got completely possessed by the idea and by the characters that I wanted to create.
00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:02.159
So I just kind of got over myself.
00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:24.960
Um, but I started so I started writing The Brides in October of 2019 because it was like a dark and stormy October afternoon, and I went to a bookshop in Oxford, and I was just browsing, and I came across this book called Who Was Dracula's Father and Other Puzzles in Stoker's Gothic Masterpiece by um a literary critic, Professor John Sutherland.
00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:38.399
And I was just like having a nice read on my sofa in the Oxford suburb of Littlemore, round the corner from the old asylum, and they came across this essay, um, Why Do Dracula's Brides Speak English?
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:42.960
And I read the essay and I was just like, that's no, that can't be right.
00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:58.879
And then I went back into my very well-thumbed copy of Dracula, and yeah, it is totally possible to interpret the bit that scene with the brides and Jonathan Harker and Dracula as the brides are speaking and understanding English.
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.240
And I just kind of ran with that.
00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:03.679
Like, what would they be doing there?
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:05.039
Why would they be speaking English?
00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:05.919
How would they get there?
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:10.399
It's really long way away from England, especially at that, you know, that time in history.
00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:24.639
And the fact that I was living in Little Moore next door to the asylum also gave me one of the settings for the novel, and it just all sort of coalesced in my mind, and I was just so possessed with the idea that I kind of couldn't stop myself.
00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:28.639
So yeah, I just I just got over my whole Dracula arrogance thing.
00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:40.399
Um, I worked quite hard to make sure that my Dracula was Bram Stoker's Dracula and you know, a bit more going a bit further, but I wanted him to be like the same character.
00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.440
I didn't want to make him sexy, no sexy Draculas.
00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:46.080
You can have sexy vampires, but you can't have sexy Dracula.
00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:48.639
He's creepy and gross, and that was important.
00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:54.240
Um, but yeah, just kind of once I got going, I couldn't stop.
00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.639
I respect the little bit of arrogance in it, to be honest.
00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:08.320
I mean, like, there's a little bit of arrogance in all writers, I think, to assume that you've got something to say and people might want to hear you say it.
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.799
So yeah.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:13.600
I think you can say that about everything.
00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:19.759
Like when I started doing this, I'm you know, I last studied books when I was in college, and now I'm talking to authors.
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:23.519
Like, does it take a bit of arrogance when I first started emailing publicists to ask?
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:25.519
Like, yeah, maybe, but you know what?
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:30.080
Here we are today talking about it, and here you are with your book about to be released.
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:31.600
So I'm here for it.
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:32.960
Oh, thank you.
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.039
I mean, is it arrogance or is it confidence?
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.480
Are we just calling it arrogance because in a man of a woman confidence?
00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:39.360
Yes.
00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:40.399
Yeah.
00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:46.559
But I did think, like, I was in what I think it was roughly when I'd like just started writing.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:58.480
I was in my living room in Oxford doing yoga, as you do, and I was like upside down, and I was looking at my bookcase, and I just had this thought, probably because all the blood was rushing to my head, I had this thought that like all these people wrote a book.
00:12:58.720 --> 00:12:59.919
All these people did it.
00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:01.600
Maybe I can do it.
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:02.960
Why not me?
00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.360
If all these people, why not me?
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:06.240
You know?
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:08.159
Should at least try it.
00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:08.879
Exactly.
00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:09.759
Why not you?
00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:20.639
And I mean, how does it feel that you went from feeling like, oh, maybe it is a bit arrogant to try and bring something new to Dracula, to then having it be taken seriously.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:28.720
And it's now found a home with such a massive publishing agency that obviously liked it enough to want to put it out there.
00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:38.720
Yeah, I just the honestly, like taking taking writing seriously has been a huge challenge.
00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:49.600
I think like I took a writing course um online with the Oxford University Continuing Education Um department in the summer of 2021.
00:13:50.240 --> 00:14:02.559
And that was the biggest help because I was like talking to other writers who were just like me, like starting out, not people who were published, not people who were, you know, really prolific, but people who were learning.
00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:08.480
And we all took each other really seriously and took our our work seriously and our ambition seriously.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:18.559
And that helped so much because it just when I was dealing with these other people, it's like, well, of course I would take them seriously, so why can't I do that for me?
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:31.759
And it it helped me so much, but um yeah, taking taking it seriously, believing in what you have to say and that someone might want to hear it is just so hard.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:32.879
It's so hard.
00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:43.440
And I think we have a tendency in society to be like, well, don't get your hopes up, especially if you're doing something creative, whether that's like music or writing or whatever, if you want to make a career out of it, don't get your hopes up.
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:47.840
But if you don't get your hopes up, you won't get anywhere.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.519
You're like defeating yourself before you've even started.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.879
So God, does that answer the question, or have I just gone off on one?
00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:58.960
No, I think it does.
00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:10.399
So is that advice that you would give to someone then who maybe hears this and thinks, I I think I could do that, to maybe find a writing course or a writing group filled with like-minded people?
00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:11.759
I think I would, yeah.
00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.720
I mean, be careful about the one that you pick because you want it to be ultimately like uplifting.
00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:25.039
I think if it was the kind of group where you get really into the critique and picking other people's writing apart, I don't think that would have helped me specifically at that time.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:39.840
But yeah, like the self-belief and getting the extra kind of input, if you like, the extra education, and it stretched me in like ways I didn't know even existed.
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:42.559
Like it was a really strange experience.
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:50.720
It was only 10 weeks, but I found myself being able to see my own progress literally week on week, and it was a huge confidence boost.
00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.559
So I think being in an environment that's really positive and uplifting and propelling you forward in that way.
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:11.440
Like, I don't know how people do creative writing degrees and go and sit in a classroom and get your work ripped apart by a bunch of other 18-year-olds, I think that would be really just oh my god, I would probably cry in public.
00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.240
But it needs to be the right environment, I think.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:16.720
But yeah, it's definitely advice that I would give people.
00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:28.240
Find other people who will be encouraging and uplifting and help you learn rather than trying to like get really into the critique and ripping everything apart.
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:35.919
I guess because you are also learning at that point, it is important to focus on the positives rather than maybe all of the negatives.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:36.879
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:50.159
And I'm not saying like that you don't need to hear, okay, you're struggling with X, this is really needs a lot of work, but there's ways to communicate that.
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:54.399
I think like all writers, we have massive ego that's really fragile.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:57.519
So you've got you've got to be careful, you've got to be careful about it.
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:01.360
The Brides is all letters and journal entries.
00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.160
So is that done as homage to the original?
00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:05.200
Yeah.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:14.960
So in part, yes, it's homage to the original, but also because at the time I started writing, I was not very confident, like at all.
00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:19.279
So I thought, like, all my favourite books or most of my favourite books are in the first person.
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:31.119
Maybe it'll be easier for me to write in the first person, and then obviously, like Dracula is mostly in the first person from all these different perspectives, so it felt like a really natural way forward.
00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:42.960
But of course, that ends up with me writing a book as a novice novelist, which has 12 or 13 different points of view in it, which was quite challenging.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:54.400
And I think if I'd known just how challenging it was going to be, I might have chosen a different path, but then it wouldn't have been quite so um in keeping with the original.
00:17:54.960 --> 00:18:00.640
But it was it was really satisfying, but it was just just so challenging to do.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:06.000
Huge respect to Bram Stoker, who did not have the advantage of an Excel spreadsheet to keep everything straight.
00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:09.039
Well, I'm really interested, like what was your writing process like?
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:15.440
Because I think we have kind of three main timelines, or two main timelines, and then some letters written in the past.
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:25.359
We have the current timeline of when the book is sort of taking place, and then we have some journal entries and letters around the time.
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:33.200
I guess the best way to describe it is the build-up to and the creation of the brides, because it's not spoilery to say it's obviously gonna happen.
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:39.759
And then we have some letters that are slightly further back that give some important context.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:49.359
So, how do you keep track and how do you know when we should jump forwards and backwards with letters and journal entries?
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:56.079
So when I was writing, I put it into a frame, I call it a frame narrative.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:07.279
I don't know if that's strictly correct, where we've got the 1903 sections in Little More Asylum, Little More Mental Hospital, at the beginning of every part.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:09.119
No chapters.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.039
Why why why be conventional?
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:12.480
No chapters, my god.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:23.279
Um, so there's 12 parts, the 1903 section at the beginning of every part, then the 1884 sections, and then yeah, like you say, there's a set of letters from 1874.
00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.759
So it's like that frame narrative.
00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:36.079
When I was very, very, very first drafting, I was just uh I decided about every 10,000 words I would move to a new part.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:46.799
So that didn't completely last through all of the drafts, but that when I was initially drafting, that was my kind of rule of thumb guideline.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:51.920
And it seemed to most it seemed to mostly work to feel that kind of distance.
00:19:52.079 --> 00:20:05.440
I did move things around where I wanted to mirror what was happening in the frame narrative versus the main narrative, but yeah, basically it was just that that blunt of a choice, really, just word count.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:15.200
And how do you know when to do it for sort of pacing and because you have to keep the reader engaged, and you want to swap maybe out.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:18.480
I've had people before say, I'm gonna do it on a cliffhanger.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.240
Because then you're gonna have to keep reading.
00:20:20.319 --> 00:20:24.799
So, how do you know what is going to keep the reader engaged?
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.640
Because we have some points like where they're on a train.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:41.359
I think that could get really boring, so you have to do it in a way that it's still interesting, and obviously you can flip perspectives between Lucy's journal and maybe Alice writing a letter.
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.279
I think so.
00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:55.759
With the brides, it was really important to me to make sure that every entry is doing something, there's always something new that's being given to the reader.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:04.240
There's always maybe it's extra information when maybe we're moving the plot along, maybe it's saying something about the character that's going to be relevant later or whatever.
00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.960
But it's always doing something.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.920
And I wanted that to be true in every single entry.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:16.799
Like there's always something that's new or something to interest the reader.
00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:22.640
There is often like a bit of a crescendo towards the end of a part which ends sort of a bit on a cliffhanger.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:36.400
But I think that just yeah, making sure that you're not rehashing old ground, there's no filler, you're always making sure to give the reader something important in some way, kind of keeps that going.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.440
And I mean, the train journey, that whole section, that ends on a bit of a cliffhanger.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:50.079
So you know I know the bit you're thinking of, and that's um I can't I probably can't say in the non spoiler portion of the episode.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:50.559
No.
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.039
But yeah, it lets let's say it ends on a cliffhanger.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:54.960
So I feel confident about that bit.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.880
Impressive.
00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:02.079
I like trains.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.759
I don't think trains are boring.
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.079
So maybe that comes through.
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:16.880
How do you balance lore from the original with maybe other folklore and possibly pop culture influences to do with vampires?
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.839
As well as looking at because you have sections that are set in the Littlemore Asylum.
00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.759
And so we touch on maybe some medical treatments of the time.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:30.480
They do talk into they do talk about potential hypnosis and things like that.
00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.319
I don't think that's spoilery particularly.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.359
So how do you balance all of this?
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.599
I'm assuming that you did possibly did some research, and it keeps the novel feeling believable.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:46.400
Because even though it's about vampires, it never really felt that far-fetched.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:47.920
Thank you.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:53.119
Um, like that is just reflective of kind of my own taste in like supernatural fiction.
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.079
I like things to feel really grounded.
00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:06.400
So because as a as a writer of something supernatural, fantastical, you're asking the reader to kind of come on this journey with you and like trust you.
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:20.480
So I wanted it to feel really, really grounded in the reality of daily life to some extent, like medical treatment, what it's like in the hospital, what it's like in a home of the time, what people are really doing.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:36.400
So that when we start going into psychics, we start getting into vampires, we start seeing people, you know, having prophetic dreams, all this stuff, that the reader is already so grounded in the world that it feels like it doesn't feel like a huge jump.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:44.000
It was really, really important to me to make sure that it felt very solid and that we have kind of rules.
00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:51.440
But that's actually easier to do with Dracula because everyone's kind of familiar with what vampires can and can't do.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:57.440
Although pop culture of what vampires can and cannot do has moved on since Dracula.
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.160
Like we all think, oh, vampires can't go out in the sun.
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.240
Dracula was came before that was a thing.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.440
So Count Dracula can go out in the daylight.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:16.079
And so there was a little bit of fun in that where you can subvert expectations just a little bit, which I kind of I kind of enjoyed.
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:21.359
But um balancing it all out is not I didn't find it that difficult.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:35.759
It seemed to me to be quite just so in keeping with my own tastes and what I enjoy that I just kind of wrote it how I would like to read it, and it it seems to have balanced itself out.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.799
I mean the colours can go out in the sun.
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:39.839
That's true.
00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:44.480
Nobody in my book fucking sparkles, okay?
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.480
Nobody fucking sparkles.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:51.200
I think okay, this might be uh might get cancelled for this too.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:56.000
There is probably no influence from Twilight in the brides.
00:24:56.079 --> 00:25:04.400
There's influence from other pop culture, like properties and other folklore and all this stuff, but yeah, I don't think there's anything in there from Twilight.
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.519
I just imagine sparkling Dracula in this.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:08.799
Oh my god.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:15.920
No, no, Dracula does not sparkle, he's not sexy, he is scary and gross.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:16.559
No.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.920
I feel like that's a sound right there.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.680
No one in my book fucking sparkles.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:38.640
I really liked Lucy, and I sort of I liked her pretty early on when we start getting into her diary, and it's like, respect to you for keeping such a detailed diary, because I could never.
00:25:39.119 --> 00:26:01.200
And she is she quit, she catches the eye of a reverend, and she is reading Frankenstein, and he doesn't believe that women should be reading Frankenstein, and he wants to give her a nice sermon book, and she's kind of like, eh, I think I'll stick with Frankenstein, and that that ends that potential budding relationship.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:09.759
So when we say about a book being feminist, are there challenges around what was socially acceptable at the time?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:19.200
Because we see in a lot of Alice's letters when she is writing to her mum and sister, she's very careful to say, Oh, there was a chaperone here, or we didn't do this on our own.
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:30.880
So, yes, you have these really badass women that are maybe pushing boundaries, but you have to keep them at least within some realistic limits of what was socially acceptable at the time, right?
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:31.839
Yeah.
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:34.720
First thing, Alice is writing to her mum.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:37.839
Her mum worries, she's reassuring her mum.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:46.079
So she's really focusing on the fact of don't worry, mum, the only male servant's really elderly, he's he's not gonna be, you know, an issue.
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:47.440
Uh, don't worry, mum.
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.279
I wasn't left alone with this young man.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:50.160
It's fine.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:54.880
If anything bad happened, I've got my hair pins, you know, we're fine.
00:26:55.200 --> 00:27:05.599
So she's yeah, writing to her mum and reassuring her that she's okay because she's a teenage girl in living away from home for the first time, basically, uh in her job as a ladies' maid.
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:11.279
And she's, you know, traveling in a way that probably no one from her family has ever travelled ever.
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:13.039
So she's always being really careful.
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:14.160
Don't worry about me, mum.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:15.039
I'm gonna be alright.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:17.759
Whereas Lucy, on the other hand, is writing in her own diary.
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:32.480
Lucy also has a lot more privilege because she's kind of upper-ish, middle class, and she has more of a like free not necessarily freedom, but just a little bit more space to push boundaries.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:48.799
Because if Alice Alice is a maid, she's working, she needs her job, there's a limit to what she can do because of her position in society, whereas Lucy can has a bit more freedom to like push boundaries, say what she thinks to an extent to a point.
00:27:49.039 --> 00:28:03.680
And Lucy has also been kind of under the influence for a very long time of the other main character, Mafalda, who is her secret girlfriend, and Mafalda is very privileged, has no fear, is very tough.
00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:10.880
And Lucy's been under that influence for so long that she's kind of got some of that going on.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:25.920
And she also, you know, with the reverence, she's not interested in marrying him, she doesn't need to impress him, she she can show that she's annoyed by him and and stick up for herself in a way that maybe other young ladies wouldn't necessarily be able to.
00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:27.279
Yeah.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:33.039
It's there is certainly like boundaries of what would be socially acceptable.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:36.000
Lucy kind of chafes against them quite a lot.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:47.200
Like the benevolent sexism in society about what young ladies should and shouldn't do, she pushes back where she can because she she feels so uncomfortable and so bound by it.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:55.200
Um, but yeah, there's definitely a difference in because of the class situation and because of who they're communicating with.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:29:04.720
Like Lucy's writing in her diary, she's thinking, I'm gonna need a career, I'm gonna try and be like a newspaper woman or some kind of writer because I feel like I can do that.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.559
She's writing everything down really faithfully, she's practicing for her for her future career.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.279
But Alice, yeah, she's just trying to help her mum not worry.
00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:28.799
It definitely shows some sort of reflection of the time of differences in class and like you said, what you write privately as opposed to what you are willing to tell people and tell certain people.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:32.240
That was really fun to do, actually.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:36.160
Like in the whole, you know, letters, diaries, reports kind of thing.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:56.480
Always thinking about not just who is the person who is doing the communicating and how would they be communicating, but they are aware of their own recipient and what the recipient of that communication what will be appropriate for them, what they will be expecting to hear, what they will need to hear.
00:29:56.640 --> 00:30:00.880
Like Alice's letters, she always adds a little postscript to her sister.
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.519
Her sister is reading the letters out to their mother because she's lost her sight.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:13.680
And to her sister, she is much more forthcoming, she is much more honest, she shares much more frightening things.
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.920
I think that's probably the most obvious example of that.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:29.359
But it was really, it was really rewarding to do, and who knows what when is was just also kind of really oh, it was really fun to do, like in that context.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:38.880
And the physicality of the communication, like letters going missing, letters taking a long time to arrive, so information doesn't get from one place to another.
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah, that was also just a really, really fun way to really fun way to write a novel, actually.
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:48.799
Challenging, but really fun.
00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.440
And I really enjoyed it.
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:52.480
I'd do it again.
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:53.920
I'd do it again like that.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:57.519
You didn't want to give yourself much of a challenge for your baby, did you?
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:02.319
Well, I didn't know, like I didn't know at the time that this is where I was going with it.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:09.359
I don't think I started thinking about publication until like I'd had the book for I was working with the book for nearly two years.
00:31:09.440 --> 00:31:16.000
Like I don't think I really was pushing forward for that until probably 2021 when I took the class.
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:26.799
So this is the point of the episode where we do the all-obligatory spoilers.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:38.640
If you haven't read The Brides, please come back and join us when you have, because aspects of the book will be spoiled, including what I was so sure about and what I was so wrong about.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:44.000
How did you decide to plot when the women would see Dracula?
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:46.960
And they all encounter him in different ways.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:54.319
So, like Eliza sees him in this really friendly way at Budapest Castle, and he teaches her some history, and then she sees him again later.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:59.359
Whereas Alice seems to see something much more creepy and sinister straight away.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.160
So, how are you deciding who is seeing him when and how they are going to see him?
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:33.359
So Alice has what she calls the sight, which I was quite careful to never completely define, but she's always had like prophetic dreams from when she was a teenager, and she starts to have during the course of the novel like daytime visions, especially if she um touches someone, but she she can see things that other people around her can't in these different ways.
00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:38.480
So when she sees Dracula for the first time, she can see him for what he is.
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:48.079
Um, and she also has you know, her mum and sister have an apothecary shop, she takes some medicine to try and control the nightmares, and that's a part of it too.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:55.839
So h some of his like glamour power doesn't work on her because she's taking this this herbal remedy for her nightmares.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:07.440
Um and pop culture alert moment, the um tea that she's drinking, the proper Latin name of it is uh related to Vervaine.
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:14.319
So and if you're a vampire diaries fan, Vervaine is um like an anti-vampire herb.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:21.519
So I put that in there because I just I like the vampire diaries, and it was really prevalent in pop culture when I was growing up.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:30.319
Um but she so she sees in this very like clear-sighted way that nobody else gets to, um, at least not until much later in the novel.
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:37.200
Writing a character like Dracula, it gets really easy to introduce Dredge because I can just put him in the back of a scene.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:45.039
Like when Eliza meets him in the castle, the reader's already seen him, like they're in the little funicular going up to the castle.
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:52.400
He's already there, and the reader will know because there's a tall, pale man in black just just standing there.
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.720
And so when he crops up later, like the reader's been knowing that that's coming.
00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:04.640
And that's really nice to do because you can just just put him there and the reader knows to to dread him.
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:17.039
Um as far like how I decided to do it, I think it was just I wanted to feel like I wanted to feel like he was circling them, like he is stalking them.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:25.760
He already knows um one of the characters, Mafalda's Aunt Rika, from like nationalist m the nationalist movement in Hungary.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:30.800
Um and he went looking for her.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:38.079
He like he went looking for someone for people to kind of join him, essentially, and that's where he started.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:46.079
He started with people who were nationalists, like which, if you squint a bit, he is.
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:51.039
And that's how he ha found Aunt Rika, and then he moved kind of outwards.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:58.559
He's been stalking her, and then he starts to stalk Mafalda and then Eliza, and he kind of is circling them like a shark.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:09.920
And I wanted him to just sort of pop up so for that kind of creeping dread that the reader will hopefully feel as as he circles.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:12.880
And then um, we talked about cliffhangers.
00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:25.840
I ended um one section with Alice giving her mum the new address of where she's gonna be because all the ladies are going out to the country and and the address is in Transylvania.
00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:28.079
So the reader, like, they already know what's coming.
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:34.880
We're gonna see, there's gonna be more Dracula, he's gonna be more present, he's he's kind of luring them in.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:36:03.519
Um I think it was important to kind of have him on the edge of the narrative until we get closer to the castle and closer to that kind of denouement, and then the reader gets to see like the full horror of what he's planning and how he really is, instead of presenting himself in these different ways to all these different women.
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.760
I just oh, it was so much fun, it was so fun to do.
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:19.360
As we see Dracula's influence spreading, because obviously we get Eliza becoming unwell, and we get the regression of Aunt Rika, she seems to be getting more and more ill.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:26.159
We see a lot of advice on page about what they should do.
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:30.400
Yeah, windows closed, rosaries, the hanging of the garlic flowers.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.719
So, how do you paste things like this to show that the stakes are getting higher?
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.159
Like you said, he's circling them like a shark.
00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:41.199
Because at first it seems like Eliza's just bitten.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.639
We don't get her transformation until later.
00:36:45.119 --> 00:37:00.320
So we can we see him at points, and we're getting more advice, and you can see the stakes moving up, and you can see him kind of circling a bit closer until they get to Transylvania and go to his castle.
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:09.199
So, how are you looking at pacing this just to show that it is getting that we should be dreading more even before the characters are?
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:18.079
Um I think Alice gets more and more on edge, and she's the dread because she's seeing things that nobody else is seeing.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.519
Um, so she's kind of the index, if you like.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:25.119
She's like almost like the Renfield in the original Dracula.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:34.000
She's the index of what's going on with the with Count Dracula and how much closer he's getting, or how much closer the women are getting to him.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:46.880
In terms of pacing, I like a I like a kind of not slow but medium speed reveal to kind of build up that tension in the reader.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:38:20.480
And Eliza, yeah, Eliza is bitten, so like the first part one of becoming a vampire happens and then there's quite a gap because they try and run away, but it doesn't work, although the ladies don't see it as running away, but Alice kind of does that she's getting her her mistress Eliza away from Budapest where they think he's like active, but yeah, just pacing it out in a way that felt that felt like that dread could build.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:29.199
So there's not full-on, you know, hundred miles an hour terror and horror from the middle of the book to the end.
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.599
It's much more like this awful thing has happened.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:41.760
Oh, and then things seem to be getting a little better, but then this next bit, this next awful thing happens, and then oh, we're trying to escape again.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:47.199
We're oh, a nice nobleman has invited us to stay in his castle, and it's even worse.
00:38:47.360 --> 00:39:01.360
And just because nobody has the full kind of picture of what's going on except the reader, I think that probably makes it more horrifying, or at least that's what I was going for.
00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:08.079
Um I'm hoping that the reader will be like screaming at the book at one point, like, what the fuck are you doing?
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.400
Don't go to Transylvania.
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:12.480
Um of course.
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:19.199
I mean if you've made it full on dread from about halfway through to the end, I don't think it would have been effective.
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:25.360
I think this creeping dread that we know and that Alice does kind of know, makes it work.
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:26.079
Good.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:27.760
I'm glad that you think so.
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:52.079
Um but I mean, some of it like in terms of the kind of technical craft aspect of like pacing and stuff, some things have changed and shifted around a lot since I started writing because I went through like three or four drafts, and the first draft was a huge mess, and I rewrote the last third completely.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:53.599
It's completely different.
00:39:53.840 --> 00:40:28.159
It's almost like the kind of craft aspect came in later when I kind of started taking things more seriously and knew a bit more what I was doing, and so a lot of it is a this weird mix of like what I unconsciously feel from my own reading feels right, and overlaid with the kind of craft aspect of sitting down and actually looking at it and going, okay, it's been this long since this happened, and this needs to happen here.
00:40:29.280 --> 00:40:31.280
So, okay, these things need to move around.
00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:34.800
It's it's a weird way to write a book, to be honest.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:57.840
There are some tinges of nationalism in the book, as you've already mentioned, and when they are invited to the castle, they know that he's a nationalist, and maybe that is more of a source of comfort to them because of Aunt Rika, and they know that he's had some dealings with the family, like buying some of Mafalda's aunts, so Aunt Rika's dead husband's property.
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:14.639
I can see why he wants Aunt Rika because she has those maybe nationalist ideas like he does, and Mafalda, because Mafalda's of his bloodline, but I can't see why he wants Eliza.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:15.840
Really?
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:16.400
Okay.
00:41:16.800 --> 00:41:19.360
So okay, okay.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:35.679
So one of my whole things with Dracula was this idea that he can take what is good about someone and twist it and turn it to his own ends, because I feel like that is a true thing that can happen with like dictators, right?
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:46.639
We see it in the world now, like taking a good belief that someone or a group of people has and kind of twisting it 90 degrees and turning it to their own nasty ends.
00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:50.239
So that's what Dracula kind of does.
00:41:50.320 --> 00:42:05.920
Like in Aunt Rika, he sees her kind of nationalist fervor and also how she can be quite like strong and opinionated in kind of similar to Mafalda.
00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:18.960
And he sees in her that he can twist that to his own uh ends, and he can turn her into this like brutal beast-like creature to to be a source of terror.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:26.239
Because of and and that's more obvious, like as you go through the novel and learn about the things that she's done in her past.
00:42:27.039 --> 00:42:40.079
Mafalda, she's you know, strong and forthright and focused, and she's kind of a natural-born leader in a time when she couldn't really be one, so he can take that and twist it to his own ends.
00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:52.719
Eliza is a much softer character, she's much softer, she's much sweeter, she's very like morally good, but she also she really wants to be a mother, she really wants to care for people, she's very loving.
00:42:52.960 --> 00:43:12.639
And when he sees her and speaks to her in the castle um in Budapest when they go on their little tourist trip, she's talking about she looks after her sister, um, and she's they talk about children, they talk about Dracula's own children from his like human life, though she doesn't know that.
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:43.840
And she shows that she shows him inadvertently that she has that like maternal instinct, that care, and he wants to take that and turn it to his own ends, like when he's wanting to make lots of vampires and kind of take over in this very kind of conquer the world attitude, which is like carried over from his human life, she she is of use to him in that way because she can she can help him with that.
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:51.599
So he's like taken something really good and really um positive in all of them and like turns it to his own ends.
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:54.320
Ah, okay.
00:43:54.400 --> 00:44:04.639
So when he says desire is what drives a man, and he's talking about Eliza saying he Here is my lady, my own queen, who will mother my children, tend them and teach them and send them forth.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:07.599
That's not just about her need, that's about his need as well.
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:08.719
Yeah.
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:09.360
Ah.
00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:10.480
Yeah.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:11.599
Okay.
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:13.760
That makes more sense then.
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:21.599
I just I was a little bit wary of that because it's not because it's less it is less obvious.
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.320
Clearly I needed to edit that a bit harder.
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:26.079
That could be just me.
00:44:27.840 --> 00:44:39.440
But I just really enjoyed the thought of being able to of his being able to twist what's good about someone into suing his own purposes.
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:50.719
And it feels like quite horrific because I've I set Eliza up as this like really moral good person, so when you see her later, it should be quite a shock.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.159
It's a shock to the characters.
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.159
I'm trying I'm trying to be respectful with this question.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:01.119
Um but it's a really unfair position to put Lucy and Joseph in.
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:10.320
But Josie wants to marry Mafalda, and Lucy is pretty convinced that Mafalda will say no, but obviously we find out that she doesn't say no.
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:16.079
She says yes, but she has conditions which will allow Lucy to remain with her.
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:22.239
And Mafalda says that she feels like this is the best way for them to be together.
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:27.840
Lucy tells her it's unfair to both her and Joseph to have her as kind of half a wife.
00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.559
I mean, do you think Mafalda is being unfair?
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:39.039
And in a modern society, and I'm trying not to look at it that way, there are a lot more restrictions on love, and I think she would be unfair.
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:45.039
But at the time, and this is again going back to the challenges of what is socially acceptable of the time.
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:51.280
I don't think it would have been socially acceptable for Lucia Mafalda to live as wife and wife, basically.
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.920
So is Mafalda doing maybe the best she can in a bad situation?
00:45:56.239 --> 00:45:58.320
Mafalda definitely thinks that.
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:07.760
Like she definitely believes that she is doing what is best for them, and she's used to being very decisive, so she's made the decision.
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:19.519
And the thing is, like Lucia Mafalda, the whole way through the novel, until we get to this point, which I've just been listening to in the audiobook, actually, because I just got the audio recording last week, and it's so good.
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:20.719
The actors are amazing.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:23.199
Um, so this is really fresh in my mind, this bit.
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:31.679
She she genuinely believes it, but the whole novel neither of them ever really envisages like them breaking up.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:37.440
They both believe that they want to have a life together, but they never actually properly communicate about what that looks like.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:46.559
Lucy thinks that like she says at one point she might like to run a school, but she doesn't have enough money to do that.
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:55.840
And there was a bit which I cut for pacing where she kind of imagines what that would be like living with Mafalda and running a school together.
00:46:56.079 --> 00:47:07.840
But she she kind of envisions that they'll be able to like live together like they do now, and Mafalda will maybe run the business and she'll be a writer or whatever.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:28.960
She has never envisioned this life, and Lucy thinks there's there's ways forward, and Mafalda does not, and they've never communicated about it, and so this is where they've kind of ended up with Mafalda going off and thinking, Well, I've made the right decision, I have made this sacrifice, and Lucy does not see it like that at all.
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.239
But she sees it almost like Mafalda having her cake and eating it.
00:47:33.679 --> 00:47:38.639
And I just I don't think that Lucy is wrong.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:52.800
I think Mafalda's being really unfair, but in part because she's made a huge decision and hasn't consulted Lucy at all on something that affects her so deeply because she just thinks she's right, she thinks she's right all the time.
00:47:53.440 --> 00:48:01.599
Um and it's come out in this really difficult, awful, like kind of soul-sredding way.
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:08.079
Like Lucy feels so betrayed, and yeah, so so TLDR.
00:48:08.239 --> 00:48:10.719
Yeah, I think Mafalda's being unfair.
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.400
Mafalda always has the power in their relationship.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:20.400
There's points where you see in letters she's talking about, oh, you know, this woman's brushing my hair too hard, you know.
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:21.519
I wish you were here to do it.
00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:22.480
And I think.
00:48:22.960 --> 00:48:24.559
What are you doing for Lucy?
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:26.719
Because it seems like Lucy's doing everything for you.
00:48:26.880 --> 00:48:29.679
Lucy's the one rubbing the lavender oil on your head.
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:36.320
Lucy's the one who's maybe having to make compromises because like Mafalda's made this decision about what their life will look like.
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:48.800
Lucy's had no part of it, and it does seem like, and we see more of Mafalda's decisions, which we're gonna get onto in in just a sec, but Mafalda has the power and Lucy doesn't.
00:48:49.199 --> 00:48:50.719
I think that's really sad.
00:48:51.599 --> 00:49:00.159
I think Lucy has more power than she thinks she does, and she does realise that after Mafalda does this, she has more power than she thinks she does.
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:09.440
And Mafalda at one point like lays out for her, oh, you're gonna have a sad, bookish life um with just one maid, and I feel so bad, I don't want that for you.
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.119
But to Lucy, that sounds fine.
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:13.199
Like she thinks that would be fine.
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:21.519
She has a power to walk away, which she kind of almost doesn't know until it happens.
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:43.440
But yeah, Mafalda has all the power because of class, because Lucy has a her family's not very interested in her, and she obviously lives with Mafalda and her family, she's grown up with them to an extent, and Lucy just adores her and like admires her and loves her in a very like uncomplicated way.
00:49:45.280 --> 00:49:48.000
But I think a lot of it is back to class again.
00:49:48.559 --> 00:50:09.360
There's like that class dynamic which just influences most of the relationships in the book class and money, as well as Mafalda's personality, just kind of I don't want to use the word taint it, but affect it in a way that is not positive.
00:50:09.920 --> 00:50:19.760
Up until Mafalda does the thing, which is what my next question revolves around, it feels like Lucy likes her more than Mafalda likes Lucy.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.639
I think it's that's really interesting that you think that.
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:25.519
I did.
00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:29.199
Up until, up until the thing.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:37.519
I feel like because um we see Lucy's diary, like Lucy, we get her through her own, it's her own mind.
00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:43.920
She's it's very interior, she thinks a lot, and she's in a place where she's not very busy.
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:57.519
When she and Mafalda are separated, she's not very busy, she's just staying with Eliza, and they're just like doing social things and taking food to the poor and like doing genteel lady things, and all she does really is miss Mafalda.
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:27.039
Whereas Mafalda, when she's away in Budapest, she is busy, she is busy all day, she is working on her uncle's estate, she is helping look after her aunt who is so sick, she is, you know, basically contributing to the running of a really big household and dealing with all this stuff, so she does not necessarily have the time to sit around thinking about how much she misses Lucy, and we also only see her letters, we don't see like diaries from her, her kind of interior thoughts.
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:34.239
So she's telling Lucy what's going on rather than just writing pages about how much she misses her, although she does miss her.
00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:44.559
So I see why you could get the impression that Lucy is more in love with Mafalda than Mafalda is with Lucy, especially in the light of what happens later.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:55.119
But I would say because of the choices that Mafalda makes, like she's she's willing to do a lot in her mind from her perspective.
00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:00.960
Like she's the heroine of her own story, she believes in the rightness of her own actions until right at the end.
00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:05.760
So she does view it as like a sacrifice that she's making to marry Joseph.
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:18.559
And I don't agree with her, but so to her, to her mind, she's showing Lucy like a lot of love in the actions that she takes later in the book.
00:52:18.719 --> 00:52:23.199
But I do see why you would think in the beginning that Lucy loves her more.
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:24.559
I do see it.
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:26.880
It could just be a love language thing.
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:32.400
Possibly, but Lucy does fall in love with her first, so there is that.
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:42.559
It's interesting to me that this plays into Mafalda's reason to actually accept transformation because Eliza doesn't choose, but Mafalda does.
00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:49.280
And obviously, in the original Dracula, we have no way to know how and why they ended up there.
00:52:49.599 --> 00:53:03.440
But here, with we see we see how with Bika and Eliza, but with Mafalda, we see exactly why, and obviously that is something that interested you, but it definitely added an interesting dynamic to their relationship.
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:05.760
So I was like, oh shit, and we'll get into it.
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:09.599
I thought that Mafalda was the one in the asylum at the end, not Lucy.
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:18.159
And maybe I'm I don't know, maybe it's where I miss things, but that is really that is what I thought.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:27.119
And when you find out that Mafalda's like, well, this this is how we can be together, you know, he's turned me, but you're mine.
00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.920
It's kind of like, oh I love that so much.
00:53:32.239 --> 00:53:42.800
Um, yeah, my whole, my whole like this, maybe this was the trickiest bit, like deciding when to do that reveal of who the woman in the asylum is, um, who and how.
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:58.480
And I moved that around like quite a few times, but I think the book does play fair with the reader, and if you reread, you will probably see all of the things um that add up to it being Lucy in the asylum.
00:53:58.719 --> 00:54:00.559
Oh, it feels really weird to be talking about this.
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:01.679
Oh my god.
00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:05.280
Be talking so openly about spoilers.
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:15.440
Um, because I think I've played fair with the reader, like if the if you're really like paying attention, I think it is relatively obvious.
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:16.719
Well, maybe not.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:17.280
I don't know.
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:18.639
It's easy for me to say.
00:54:18.800 --> 00:54:25.599
Um I I'm so interested to know like what people think and like what impression more people get.
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:27.920
Okay, well tell you what, let's let's talk about this now.
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.679
So, did you plan to keep it somewhat ambiguous who she was?
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:33.119
Yeah.
00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.159
Yeah, I wanted it to be a mystery until until the end, until the final reveal.
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:47.280
And you get like breadcrumbs as you go along, like the the husband is Sir Joseph, and this is his wife, Lady Lowell.
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:52.239
It's like, okay, so not only is she in the asylum, but whoever it is has married Joseph.
00:54:52.559 --> 00:55:23.840
And it does kind of point to Mafalda for much of the novel, but I think there's I've left hints, many hints about who it actually is, and I just ultimately like I don't believe that Mafalda would have left Lucy there, whereas Lucy leaves Mafalda in the castle at the at the end.
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:38.159
I think up until the point when you start to see this, because you there's this whole thing about oh, there was a carriage accident and people died, and you you know that's not true, but you don't know what actually happened, and the marrying of Joseph.
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:45.519
I was so hung up on the name and so sure in my own rightness that when you did breadcrumb things, I was so blind to it.
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:51.440
I was like, no, I I I know this is Mafalda as Lady Lowell, it is Mafalda, and obviously it wasn't.
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:53.920
So I like the fact that I was wrong about that.
00:55:54.639 --> 00:55:56.320
Oh, that makes me really happy.
00:55:56.480 --> 00:55:58.960
I'm glad that you're not like disappointed.
00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:04.159
Um, but this is something I was rereading Dracula recently because I hadn't read it just for fun.
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:16.800
And Jonathan Harker says that when Mina Haaker's been bitten and she's like on her way to turning into a vampire, he says that he loves her so much, he would do it, he would do it too, and be a vampire with her.
00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:33.920
And I think that if it were reversed and if Mafalda was making the choice, do I stay or not, I think she would would make the sacrifice because she doesn't care so much about being like moral or good, and Lucy really kind of does.
00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:36.880
But yeah, Mafalda chooses, she makes a choice.
00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:39.360
Mafalda feels very powerless, a lot of the novel.
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:51.280
Even though we see her being like quite decisive and bold, it's like there's things like she needs a man's signature on loads of documents, and she struggles when she has to go out at night.
00:56:51.440 --> 00:57:02.480
It's like a whole big thing and a whole big plan, and she ends up in trouble and kind of has to punch her way out of it, which is a really satisfying moment when she gets to punch someone horrible in the face.
00:57:02.719 --> 00:57:17.440
Um, so like, and then like when we get to the end where she is making that choice, part of it is because she wants to have the power that she feels she's kind of not necessarily owed, but like ready for, able to handle.
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:35.119
And so being like Dracula's right hand, she can be free of the shackles of the kind of benevolent sexism that like contain her, but also there is like being able to be with Lucy in the way that she wants.
00:57:36.480 --> 00:57:43.119
But that choice aspect was a really big deal for me that Eliza Enrique don't get to choose, but Mafalda does.
00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:47.599
That's another reason why I can see her marrying Jonathan would be sensible because she needs a man's signature.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:53.039
She can just say, you know, oh husband, you know, clearly I'm so capable, but I do need you to do this one thing for me.
00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:55.760
And Jonathan's gonna just sign what she needs him to sign.
00:57:56.159 --> 00:57:58.239
Like, she doesn't like him.
00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:01.199
Mafalda doesn't really like him as a person at all.
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:02.400
No, you can tell that.
00:58:02.480 --> 00:58:04.320
Like, why does he think I would care about sheep?
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:08.079
Yeah, she thinks he's really boring, and he is like a little bit boring.
00:58:08.239 --> 00:58:14.400
Lucy acknowledges he can be a bit boring, but he's got this path in life that he's kind of grateful to have.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:29.119
And because like he says, um, Sir Gerald, who's Mafalda's dad, didn't have to give him like the the estate to look after while he was still alive, he didn't have to do any of that, he didn't have to like help him along in any way.
00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:35.199
So he's got this path in life that he's grateful to have, and he's really like dedicated to it, and he cares a lot about it.
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:38.239
And so Mafalda just sees he's like really boring.
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:39.679
Why do I care about sheep?
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:53.440
Lucy kind of sees more that he's a bit like her, like this family, the Lyell family, have helped her, like they've helped him, and she feels like an affinity with him in that way.
00:58:54.159 --> 00:59:06.480
They are closer friends than Mafalda has ever been with Joseph, who's like her second or third cousin or something, it's not close enough to be gross, I promise.
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:18.320
Um so she Lucy feels that a bit more like respect for him and friendship with him, even though when he says that he wants to marry Mafalda, she basically wants to kill him.
00:59:19.199 --> 00:59:29.119
So I think the fact that Lucy does end up marrying him because she feels that that is the right choice at that time.
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:37.599
I don't think it's as jarring, and I don't think he's gonna have as an unhappy life with Lucy as he would have with Mafalda.
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:40.320
I think if they got married, he'd be fucking miserable.
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:46.480
I think they make kind of a sweet couple, even though you know Mafalda is Lucy's big love.
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:50.559
I mean they have kids, so yeah, clearly there's enough there.
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:56.000
Yeah, like I think I feel like this was kind of a choice for a lot of women in history.
00:59:56.159 --> 01:00:01.119
Like, marrying for romantic love is such a new idea, really, in like the grand scheme of things.
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:10.800
So for Lucy to say, I don't feel romantic love for this man, but I feel liking and like friendship, platonic love for this man.
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.800
So this this is actually a good reasonable choice for me to make.
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:20.159
Like, I respect him, he respects me, we get on well, we're quite similar.
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:21.679
It feels like a good bet.
01:00:21.760 --> 01:00:26.239
And I really I get to worry a little bit that the reader might feel like let down by that.
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:36.239
But it feels like to me, Lucy's kind of absorbed a little bit of Mafalda's practicality and like toughness in being able to make that choice for herself.
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:40.639
Maybe that was what I was going for, anyway.
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:43.119
Another thing I was really surprised about.
01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:55.039
So okay, I was surprised and not surprised because obviously I thought Lady Lowell in the asylum was Mafalda, but I thought that the brides could have been Eliza, Lucy, and Mafalda.
01:00:55.599 --> 01:01:02.159
And so, what do you think that says about the sort of societal prejudices of our age that I assume?
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:03.519
This is so bad.
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:22.800
I assumed that Rika would be too old to be a bride, and I am definitely closer to her age than I am for Mafalda's, but it's this pop culture thing of like you said, they're always sexy and in their 90s, and it's a very kind of more sex-driven role that I just kind of thought, oh, Rika's just too old, and yeah, I'm probably not I'm probably not far off her age.
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:24.480
How old do you reckon she is?
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:27.679
So I'm 39 and she's probably younger than me.
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:32.559
Okay, so she's younger than me, and I assume she was too old to be uh a blog.
01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:34.719
In my head, she's in her 30s.
01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:37.599
Like Lady Maria is probably into her like late 40s.
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:40.000
So Mafalda's mum, she's like in her late 40s.
01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:41.760
Mafalda's 21.
01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:48.480
Um, but and yeah, Rika is somewhere like in the middle, she's probably in her mid-30s.
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:53.440
So she's and before she got really sick, she was like gorgeous.
01:01:53.679 --> 01:02:00.079
This gorgeous, like glamorous, socialite, intelligent, like society lady.
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:05.679
Um, so yeah, she's she is definitely hot enough to be to be a bride.
01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:08.159
And she like she looks like Mafalda.
01:02:08.400 --> 01:02:18.239
They're kind of all all of them have like this really strong familial resemblance to both each other and ultimately to Dracula, who is their like relation.
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:24.239
Um so yeah, she's she's definitely hot enough to be a bride.
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:53.679
But what does that say about I'm also gonna say me, because obviously I you absorb things through what is around you that I assumed that I feel like I feel like because our society, like they all got married a lot younger and had kids a lot younger, but also kept having kids for longer, so like the big age gap between Mefaldo's mum, Lady Maria, and Aunt Rika is more maybe more likely then than now.
01:02:53.840 --> 01:03:05.760
And we just have like assumptions about if you talk someone's talking about my aunt, you imagine a woman in like her 50s or 60s or something, where that wouldn't have been the case in that time period when people were getting married younger.
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:07.360
Yeah.
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:12.000
I know, but yeah, I I promise she was like glamorous and gorgeous.
01:03:12.400 --> 01:03:13.840
So definitely hot enough to be a bride then.
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:14.800
It could be hot enough.
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:24.400
It couldn't have been Eliza Lucy and Mafalda because I was so convinced that Mafalda was Lady Lowell, but I just it never occurred to me that Rika might be.
01:03:24.639 --> 01:03:29.360
Yeah, there are hints, there are hints about who it is.
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:33.360
But I'm like, I love I kind of love that you didn't pick up on it.
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:40.400
Because I would love people to reread this and to go back, it's like I do with mysteries and stuff, to go back and be like, oh wow, I did not see that.
01:03:40.480 --> 01:03:41.599
Oh wow, I missed that.
01:03:41.679 --> 01:04:13.360
Oh, like I really enjoy rereading my favourite books, and I know not everybody feels that way, but I feel like you miss out on a lot if you don't reread because it's such a different experience to reading something for the first time, and I love I love books where there's that, like there is that element of mystery, whether it's a mystery novel or not, but you kind of you get to see more of what the author's been doing, and I just find that really satisfying when I read it, so I hope people have the same experience.
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:21.440
It makes sense because some of what was happening happened before Eliza even got there with like locking up the windows and stuff like that.
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:37.920
So it does make sense, it's just yeah, I was so convinced she's too old, but no, it it makes complete sense, and then and I know I saw the signs, but chose to I chose to ignore them in folklore and pop culture.
01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:44.159
We see a lot of rules and advice when people are kind of suspicious of the supernatural.
01:04:44.320 --> 01:05:01.760
And I'm gonna bring up one of my favourite horror films, American Werewolf in London, and they get told two things, which is beware the more beware the moon and stay off the moors, and obviously they do neither, and that happens right at the beginning, like right at the beginning of the film, and then the whole thing is about him sort of turning into a werewolf and blah blah blah.
01:05:01.920 --> 01:05:05.360
Um, people should have seen it, so that shouldn't be a spoiler.
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:33.280
We see at various points there are innkeepers that aren't really trying to be that hospitable, and again, it seems like the dread of the advice given builds up until the last innkeeper and his wife, who they stay with before they go to the castle, and the innkeeper's wife flat out says, Do not go, it is dangerous, and gives Lucy a rosary, and she's very insistent.
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:34.880
Lucy's like, Oh no, no, but I'm not Catholic.
01:05:34.960 --> 01:05:38.000
She's like, No, fucking take this, don't go.
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:44.079
If you're gonna go, fucking take this and try and be safe to sum up, basically.
01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:47.519
So, how do you balance again things like that?
01:05:47.679 --> 01:05:59.760
I've been asking you a lot about pacing because it's something that, especially with your book, has really interested me because of different timelines and the building of the dread, and sort of deciding when to pigeonhole certain things.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:08.559
Because there are points with Eliza where we definitely know Eliza is sort of basically turned before she gets there.
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:10.480
Things with the eyes.
01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:13.599
Someone says that she's not in the mirror.
01:06:13.840 --> 01:06:14.079
Yeah.
01:06:14.239 --> 01:06:16.239
And there are all various things like that.
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:23.760
But yeah, we're still getting advice, even though by that point, as a reader, we should be pretty sure I think she's she's basically there now.
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:30.719
And um, oh, the feeding of the duck blood soup seems to be the only thing to help her, not the bone broth.
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:33.519
And it's like, oh the fact that that's blood is very significant.
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:37.360
God, maybe that is an odd to twilight.
01:06:37.440 --> 01:06:39.119
I hope that's not an odd to twilight.
01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:39.840
I didn't mean it.
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:43.760
I didn't see it as a no, because I think they yeah, I didn't see it as an odd twilight.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:50.079
Yeah, the idea that like animal blood can help a bit, like can feed you a bit, but not really.
01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:52.239
Um but but what else could they do?
01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:58.239
And I actually felt like when the woman was feed making that and saying, No, give her this, this is the thing she needs.
01:06:58.400 --> 01:07:01.840
It's like, hmm, have you have you maybe dealt with this before?
01:07:02.159 --> 01:07:04.159
Because you seem to know what to do.
01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:11.039
No, it's just like apparently, like it's it's kind of the thing that your Polish grandma might give you to make you feel better.
01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:16.320
And I just like I love that there's it's like, oh, this will make you feel better.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:19.760
Oh wait, or it'll help you if you're turning into a vampire.
01:07:20.000 --> 01:07:27.599
It just feels like it's a little bit that turning like a good thing into a into a thing that serves Dracula and his purposes.
01:07:27.679 --> 01:07:28.480
I don't know.
01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:34.400
Um, but yeah, getting all the advice of like what to do, I kind of feel like so.
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:40.400
You're talking about American Werewolf in London, where people go and like break the rules they've just been given and wonder why bad stuff happens.
01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:42.800
That was one of the big examples that came up to me.
01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:46.960
And I do love that film, and I love an opportunity to talk about it and bring it up as an example.
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:51.199
But I think throughout most of the brides, they follow the rules.
01:07:51.440 --> 01:07:53.679
Like the doctor, um, Dr.
01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:59.760
Arminius, who comes and attends Eliza, um, he lays out the rules and they they follow them.
01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:04.079
They follow the rules that they're given for the most part, I think, I think.
01:08:04.639 --> 01:08:11.199
And it still goes, it still goes awry because they're always trying, especially Alice, like she's always trying to do the right thing.
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:19.039
She's always trying to protect people, she's always trying to like help people and make sure that they are okay and safe and healthy and that they get away from him.
01:08:19.359 --> 01:08:35.840
And it still keeps going wrong, like doing things right, but the forces that are kind of against them, Dracula, is just too too powerful, I guess, too, like so many steps ahead.
01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:49.199
And I felt that that was kind of almost like part of the tragedy of it, that you can do all the right things, you can stay indoors, you can lock the window shutters, you can hang garlic flowers everywhere, you can have your crucifix.
01:08:50.720 --> 01:08:57.520
And still still you end up in the castle, still you get bitten, still bad things happen.
01:08:58.800 --> 01:09:02.000
And I found that really sad and I liked it.
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:07.439
What I'm about to ask you would mean that your novel would not work.
01:09:07.680 --> 01:09:08.479
Okay, go on.
01:09:08.720 --> 01:09:10.479
But is there anything that they could do?
01:09:10.640 --> 01:09:20.319
Because alright, Lucy obviously, years later, has a relapse because she sees Dracula, and this is when Dracula is in London for the events of Dracula.
01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:28.079
But up until that point, she seems kind of fine, but we know that his presence is there circling, but that distance seems to help.
01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:35.279
So is there anything if you could go in and create like almost a bonus alternate ending?
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:36.560
What would you say to them?
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:39.840
Like, no, this is what you need to do, and you think it would actually work?
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:42.000
Because what they tried didn't.
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:51.199
I don't know, because like the only way to get away from him is to like run away.
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:57.520
Once you've been bitten, though, it's a bit of a question as to like what happens what happens to you.
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:01.279
Do you become a vampire or not?
01:10:01.520 --> 01:10:05.840
I think I came down on the side of not, but like he's vengeful.
01:10:06.159 --> 01:10:22.079
Like he part of his going to London in the events of Dracula the novel, like he's still got his whole master plan that he's working on, but being able to get at Lucy, who's got away from him, is like a bonus, so he can he can get at her.
01:10:22.319 --> 01:10:24.399
And it's a scene like in Dracula.
01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:25.039
I'd love that.
01:10:25.119 --> 01:10:25.840
That was so fun to do.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:28.159
It felt so fanfiction-y, I really enjoyed it.
01:10:28.399 --> 01:10:32.800
Um and so she's run away, but like there's nowhere far enough.
01:10:33.039 --> 01:10:40.960
And the only reason that he doesn't kind of finish her off is because the events of Dracula, the novel, are going on, so he kind of doesn't have the space to do it.
01:10:41.279 --> 01:10:55.760
So in terms of like what they could do, I don't think I don't know that there is any course of action that the characters could take that would save them all from him.
01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:00.479
And that's like part of the tragedy of it, I guess.
01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:09.680
Like the only person who sees clearly does not have like the social power to remove everybody from danger.
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:17.840
And yeah, I think just it's just like a one-way street to Dracula's castle.
01:11:18.159 --> 01:11:22.159
Like there's no there's kind of no question about where we're gonna end up.
01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:25.279
It's just how we get there and how long does it take.
01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:34.720
At least it doesn't end up as tragedy for everyone because Lucy kind I know she ends up in an asylum for a while, but she does seem to have a reasonably good life.
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:37.840
And Alice has a great life, she gets a great husband.
01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:41.119
Yeah, she does, she gets the best husband, I think.
01:11:42.159 --> 01:11:47.439
Well, I think she's romantically interested in her husband, which is a bonus, which is a bonus, yeah.
01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:48.640
And he's very sweet.
01:11:48.720 --> 01:11:52.000
I liked him very much um as a character.
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:54.159
Like her husband is lovely.
01:11:54.399 --> 01:12:01.119
Um But I think, yeah, I wrote the epilogue actually really early on, and it went through some edits.
01:12:01.520 --> 01:12:10.880
Um, but it's one of like the pieces of the very first draft that still exists in more or less the same form.
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:15.680
So because I was like, I was always going there to that point.
01:12:16.159 --> 01:12:25.600
But um one of the very few changes my agent suggested I make was the last paragraph, so that it's not quite rounded off and it's still a bit creepy.
01:12:26.079 --> 01:12:29.359
Um and I really like that, like reading it through.
01:12:29.520 --> 01:12:32.720
I think it was one of I think it was a really good idea.
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:48.319
Um that Lucy, this idea that Lucy like she might have survived everything, but she's like there might be more, there might be more vampires just because Dracula's gone and the his quote unquote brides are gone, that doesn't mean they're all gone.
01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:51.279
So I'm gonna like I'm still gonna be prepared.
01:12:52.880 --> 01:13:01.279
And yeah, I loved having that like additional creepy ending because it just I love that.
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:11.359
I love that in a book where it's still it's mostly when you're mostly done, but there's that tiny bit of it being like slightly open-ended, like, oh is the horror really over.
01:13:14.079 --> 01:13:17.680
It's definitely something that puts the hairs on your back of a neck up.
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:20.399
I'm glad you think so.
01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:30.319
Thank you so much for coming and talking to me about the brides.
01:13:30.479 --> 01:13:40.960
I thought it was really cool the way it was written with all of the journal entries and the letters, and I was so here for their kind of journey further and further towards tragedy.
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:44.479
Yeah, that's such a good way of putting it.
01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:46.880
Their journey further and further towards tragedy.
01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:48.319
I'm gonna use that.
01:13:50.000 --> 01:13:56.960
And I'm glad I was glad to be proved wrong because I I love that when I'm so sure about something, and it's like plot twist moment.
01:13:57.119 --> 01:13:58.960
You're not as smart as you think you are.
01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.520
I love it when authors do that.
01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:05.840
Well, now you can like reread it and uh see all the things you missed.
01:14:06.319 --> 01:14:10.319
So I think I've read enough that I'm quite confident with my with what I think a lot of the time.
01:14:10.479 --> 01:14:13.840
So when someone does prove me wrong, I love it.
01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:15.760
That's awesome.
01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:17.039
Yeah, I agree.
01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:18.880
A moment of humility.
01:14:19.119 --> 01:14:22.319
I'm really I'm really not as smart as I thought I was.
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:32.319
Well, thank you so much for having me on and letting me ramble about all this stuff and talk about my spoilers, which has been awesome.
01:14:32.479 --> 01:14:35.600
I like this isn't something you get to do very much.
01:14:35.920 --> 01:14:37.279
So thank you very much.
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:38.319
It's been great.
01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:42.560
I like to talk spoilers because otherwise, how much of the book am I going to be asked to talk to you about?
01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:46.479
Maybe like first two chapters or first two parts in your case.
01:14:46.720 --> 01:14:48.079
Like, no, I want to.
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:49.840
I I've read the whole book.
01:14:50.000 --> 01:14:55.359
I want to talk to you about the ending, and that's why I have a spoiler section.
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:59.119
It for for my own to indulge my own pleasure.
01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:00.479
That's awesome.
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:01.520
That's great.
01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:05.279
Literally why I started doing it.
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:08.239
I think that's like excellent reasoning.
01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:22.319
That's all this might be a bit of a preemptive question because I mean we are we are literally on basically the Eve of the Brides coming out, but are you working on anything else?
01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:23.359
I am.
01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:32.479
Um I am in edits right now uh with my second book, which I genuinely don't know how much I'm allowed to talk about.
01:15:32.800 --> 01:15:40.000
Um so it's another like historical gothic horror title.
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:46.960
Um and it's about Vikings, cursed archaeology, and female rage.
01:15:48.159 --> 01:15:50.479
So you would brand this as another feminist book?
01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:51.520
Oh god, yeah.
01:15:51.680 --> 01:15:54.960
I'm not I don't think I'm ever gonna write a book that's not somehow feminist.
01:15:55.119 --> 01:15:59.279
I'm a feminist, so like that's always gonna come out.
01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:03.039
I'm excited to to read that because I I enjoyed this.
01:16:03.199 --> 01:16:06.319
There are so many things in it that you did that I thought were really cool.
01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:11.920
So I'm I'm very keen to read future things that you have coming out.
01:16:12.239 --> 01:16:13.439
Oh, thank you very much.
01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:14.560
I really appreciate that.
01:16:14.720 --> 01:16:18.960
That is awesome to hear for my like massive yet fragile writer ego.
01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:27.520
Well, good luck with launch, and I look forward to seeing how well your book is received.
01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:29.359
Oh, fingers crossed.
01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:30.399
Thank you.
01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:39.439
Thank you for hanging out with me and Charlotte today.
01:16:39.760 --> 01:16:54.319
I really hoped you enjoyed the episode and that you finish it with maybe the hairs on the back of your neck sticking up a little bit, and that you come away from the episode knowing that no one in the book fucking sparkles.
01:16:54.640 --> 01:17:00.159
Follow me on Instagram at DMythPod and join me again soon for more episodes.
01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:17.119
I've been Lauren, and today I've been turning pages and drinking blood with Charlotte Crossing.
