Behind the Hits: Unlocking the Music Industry's Secrets: ft John Wpolf from A-list Management

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Des Talk. Today my guest is John Wolf from A-list Management.

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Welcome, John. Thanks, thanks for having me. Yeah, is a dear friend for many years and I'm glad

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to have him on to share some of his insights. I'm glad to be here.

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Long journey through the music industry. I mean, yeah, you you've you've been there from day one.

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Yeah, -- just to -- add to the viewers and listeners,

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we have an extra guest here who is Layla, John's dog.

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-- She comes with me -- everywhere. So she might be intermittently jumping in and out of the scenes.

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Yeah. this is her podcast debut though,

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everyone. Really? Yeah, how old is she now? -- She's -- one in a month.

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Wow. So how come you decided to get a dog?

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I think dogs are better than people. I just I've always had dogs and just,

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yeah, I just, I love the energy that dogs give you. I just think they're just so happy to see you and it's just pure,

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pure love, you know, so it's nice. I think it's what I needed in my life.

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No, it's just nice to have, that companionship. someone to cuddle,

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yeah, -- it's nice -- ytocin, yeah, and someone's so happy to see you when you come home and just good vibes,

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you know. Yeah, it's true. They are always. Happy to see.

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I guess there's no, yeah. let's start off with how you first got into the music industry then.

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As a, as a good sort of start to give a bit of context.

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So I, I, I started out not knowing what I wanted to do in music,

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but I just knew I wanted to do something in music. I, I started out as you might remember,

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just like DJing or or wanting to produce music or just wanting to do anything.

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I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to do something in music and yeah,

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I, I, I, you know, I was lucky I grew up around people that were in music and it was just something where I was just.

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It was what kind of made me happy and DJing or putting on parties or just kind of

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being involved in in stuff was just what. I was just drawn to and then it was like it it was then sort of like,

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oh. You know, it started out DJing putting on parties, then being in studios,

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and then from there, you know, trying to produce things or remix things and then people would sort of,

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then I just got more and more drawn to the business side of things and people just kept sort of.

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Asking me to manage them or do things or,

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you know, I just sort of opportunities seemed to come my way in terms of like,

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you know, someone when I was 19 asked me if I wanted to do an internship at a record label in New York and.

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I think that changed my whole perspective of what I thought I wanted to do in terms of I liked being on the other side of

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the business in terms of like being on the more like industry side as opposed to,

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yeah, so you never wanted to be a big DJ if you started off DJing,

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because even now when you have your birthday party, -- you always get on the -- decks. it's just like my party trick like I I I I still love it,

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it's in my heart, but I was never good enough to be that. But yeah, I,

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you know, I might have had. Ambitions or whatever, but I think what I realised I was good at was .

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How to communicate with others or other people and navigate around the

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industry and but I still had the sensibility in my heart of like

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how I felt when I, when I was like trying to be a DJ or when I was trying to be a,

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you know, I understood what that felt like to someone,

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-- you know -- like what the. Good feeling is of

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getting the smallest reaction from the crowd when you drop

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-- a tune or when you do -- the smallest things, do you know what I mean like and and insecurities you can

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feel of oh I I got that wrong or this or that and

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how to help or communicate to someone, you know, like,

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perfect example, we have a songwriter we've recently started working with called

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Kiddo, and I don't think she'll mind me telling this story, but like the the other day.

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We had a big session for her in Los Angeles with with huge producers and

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she texted me that she was feeling really nervous like before going in the session,

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and she, you know, she's really talented and she's had a lot of success as a songwriter

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and I said to her, you know, they should be lucky to have you, you know,

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at the same time. Yeah, it's good to have nerves, but at the same time,

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you should never doubt yourself. Like, no one is better than someone because they've

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had more hits or they've done more things. Like you bring as much to this party as they do.

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So, so with your artists, you just book them in with random.

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Producers who you think might be a fit and and you say right,

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the session's booked at this time, -- turn up and get creative in this room with them kind of -- hope it works less random,

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it's more kind of calculated in terms of, OK,

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well, we think this could be a good fit with this, this makes sense with this,

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and occasionally it's like you,

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you try something super random and it it can work,

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you know, you know, sometimes I've been lucky that it has worked and other times.

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It hasn't worked, but you know, it, it, you have to try and think,

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you know, with producers or writers we work with, it's about thinking

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who could work well with who and how something can can work.

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That that's more what it is, you try and find combinations of people that

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you think this could bring something special. Right. You know,

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it's not just kind of like, oh, here's a random person, here's a random person,

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-- go hang out with each -- other. Because you've got under your management both

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DJs, producers, singers, rappers.

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What's your, anything else? So yeah, we we've got our producers,

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songwriters, DJs, rappers, yeah, that's kind of. -- And -- you sort of like

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mix them up amongst themselves, or is it generally each one is tailored?

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Everyone is is its own person, you know, if people want to work with each other,

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amazing, but you know, we, we see everyone as their own people and

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we're starting to get into the rights business now. We started a record label with Jake Gosling,

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who's a producer we look after and Sorry,

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I just didn't want her to chew your wires. We started a record label with Jake Gosling who we look after cos we,

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it's important for us to be in the rights business cos as much as management is cool,

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management is a fickle business, and it could be that I manage you today,

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but you know, you might not like me tomorrow and if,

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if we fall out or you think I'm not a good manager or Layla's a better manager.

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Then then and she agrees with that, then,

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Then, you know, what do we have? You know, if we're trying to sell a business in 5,

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10 years' time, we need to own rights or things, so it's like

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we can find great people and it's about being involved in the rights business,

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-- so we're the record label or the publishing -- company. So as a as a manager,

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you're just getting what a percentage of all the artists you're managing's

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annual income. Yeah, exactly that. So, so, so we're getting. 20% of their income.

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Is that what the deal is? Yeah, it's always what the deal is, yeah. It's not too complicated,

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sure, but at the same time, you know, it's like -- 20% -- of everything,

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yeah, but at the same time, if we're working with an artist from scratch, you know,

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say my dog here, Layla became a performing dog, and we have to take her from the very beginning and we've got to do the heavy lifting,

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there might be a year or two where we're not, not making any money,

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you know, and it might take 2 years for her to become. You know, to a point where it's a sustainable business,

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so it's like in those early years, if we're partnering with an artist and

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we're self-releasing records or this and that, it should be more of a 50/50 or something

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because we're actually having to become a record label. We're not,

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yeah, but that's what we push for because -- you push for 50/50 -- where we can depending on where they are,

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yeah, but if, if, if it's a brand, brand new thing.

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And we have to be the record label, we have to assume every role above management.

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Then it's a different thing. If it's like a look an already established thing and brand comes to us,

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then it's a different thing, then it. Yeah,

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so, so we just had to cut quickly because

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Layla decided to pull the plug on the whole operation.

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I'm sorry, my, my dog didn't want me giving away insider knowledge.

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yeah, so we were saying sometimes you can. get 50/50 then,

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is that like an early, like over the next two years we'll get 50/50 and then as you get bigger,

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we'll, yeah, so so it's like if it, if it's like brand,

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brand, brand new artist with nothing going on, we've got to like be more than the manager,

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we've got to be the record label, we've got to be everything. Then in that situation we try and push for,

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you know, 40 or 50% because in in that situation we're doing so much more than being

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a manager. We're being a record label, we're being. You know,

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publisher, we're being everything in that situation and it's like we have to be remunerated accordingly because

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otherwise it's crazy, you know, once obviously they get bigger. Obviously it can,

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it scales down, you know, -- like because -- that's just they can just leave you then or

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what's the deal with the contracts you have with them, is it like I have you for like 20%,

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-- I -- invest in you. No, no, that's, that's the thing, there's there's no kind of

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loyalty in management, but then, you know, if they leave, you've got a sunset clause of say like

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5 and 5 years, you know, and it's like 5 years at the rate you've negotiated and 5 years at a lesser rate.

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But that's the thing. So, so how does the sunset clause work? -- So -- say I'm managing you and you,

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you leave us tomorrow, everything that we've done together during the term of our management period

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from the day we've started to the day you fire us, we will then commission on

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for 5 years at the agreed rate that we agreed.

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And then it will decrease to say 10%

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-- for an additional 5 -- years. Right, OK, so you're still earning.

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But that's why you wanna be in the rights business, you know, that's why we're doing this record label with Jake.

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That's why, you know, we're looking at other labels and ventures we wanna do because

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in the rights business, we have much longer terms. We,

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we can, we, we can do things for much longer periods of time. Hold on.

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Layla, do you wanna come here? I know you want to be in a podcast.

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Hold on a second, I'll just put her on the sofa, put her on the sofa or stick it in the other room

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where there's lots of fun toys and a child to play with. doesn't and this has been a good test of a good reason for me to not

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get a dog for my daughter who's been bugging me for a dog the whole time. And now I give her a dog to play with and all she's doing is playing iPads,

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so. OK. It should be everyone should be happy.

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These will be some good outtakes on this one. Yeah,

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so. You were saying, yeah, I was just saying,

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you know, that's why for us it's important to to be in the rights business.

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Yeah, so, so being in the rights business is then you own what a percentage of the publishing.

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No, so we, we're gonna be in the master business, so like record label,

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so it's like, so it's like our job with

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with Jake and you know we're we're gonna set up a label with Elderbrook

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is to then sign artists or sign singles where we'll have

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rights to those singles for like 15 or 20 years.

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And it doesn't matter if like that person leaves us or does whatever

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with a label, we've got rights for 1520 years. So on the masters,

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that's basically just to give a sort of super quick lesson in how

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these rights work. -- I know they're very complicated and there's -- I I can explain in the most,

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yeah, explain because this is quite educational for

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like how the music industry works and. When I've tried to look into it,

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it's been a bit complicated, so it's interesting to hear. -- What would -- you like me to explain

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first? So what are the rights, because for what I understand there's one for the where it's recorded,

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who's sung, who's produced it, who's, yeah, of course, so, so initially you have

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record label, right, and the master is, is kind of,

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if there's a pie chart and for one song

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100%, right? So the, the artist,

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let's say Di is signed to. Layla Records,

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right? Then, then Layla Records owns the master recordings.

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Layla Records will then do a deal with you and say,

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OK, Die, we're an independent label, we'll do a deal 50/50.

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So then it's like you have 50% of the master,

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we have 50% of the master, and that's how it kind of works.

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And as I was explaining to you earlier, if we do a million streams on a song on Spotify.

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That equates to 4000 pounds in income, just like layman's terms.

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So then if is that always the case? It is always the case. -- 1 million stream 4000 pounds on -- Spotify,

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yeah. OK. So then if, if, you have, if we're on a 50/50,

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you're getting 2000 pounds per million streams and we're getting 2000.

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The 4000 goes to the rights holder, so we're the rights holder,

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we're the record label, we've done a deal with you, 50/50.

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-- Cause that's like an indie deal would be -- 50/50. If we're just a,

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yeah, it depends, like distribution companies, you might be 70/30 in your favour or 80/20,

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you know, if, if we're just a distributor. If we're a major label,

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if I'm Warner or Sony or Universal, you would be on 20 or 25%,

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and I would be on 80 or 75%, because in that situation,

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I'm giving you an advance. It's a recoupable advance, but I'm giving you,

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say, here's 1000, you've got to recoup that before you then see any money.

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And then once you've seen that money, you, this is the rate.

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So artists like Drake or Taylor Swift or other massive artists

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have taken enormous advances from their labels,

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but then their royalty rate is much lower because the label's gotta recoup the money.

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So there's a label get 100% of the money back until it's fully recovered and then it's split 80,

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20 or 5. So like with say like Drake, for example,

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Drake took I think 2 or 300 million pounds from Universal

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and then the rate he's on is something like. 8020 in their favour because they've got to

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recoup that money back quickly. But if, if he hadn't taken a huge amount of money,

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but that's after they've recouped, so they get 100% until they reach the 200 million,

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yeah and then and then -- for him he's laughing cos -- he's already been paid but that but that's it,

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yeah, but it depends how some people don't want the big check.

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Some people just want to get the money paid through straight away,

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right, so. -- Depends how you want to -- structure it. So when you say you want to get into the rights business,

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you wanna become a record label that then records

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the artist and then you own a part of that master. Well yeah,

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we wanna become the record label so we can build up catalogue. So it's about,

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you know, we wanna have 20 singles, 30, 40,

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100 singles signed to us, so it's like. You know,

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we wanna accumulate masters in terms of rights in master recordings.

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So that's the master recording, and then how does the publishing work?

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We're, we're not a publishing company currently, but publishing works in terms of

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collecting income every time a song is played on radio, every time a song is sing.

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00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,520
-- But -- that's for the master right, -- that's paid to the -- master that's separate,

202
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,520
that's separate. So publishing and and master are completely separate.

203
00:15:19,599 --> 00:15:22,599
So publishing deals with who's written the song. Yeah. You know,

204
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master's just about, we wanna, you've come to us with this song,

205
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we like it, we wanna sign it. We we're not interested in who's written the song,

206
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who's done what. -- You know that's -- that's that's 11 income stream,

207
00:15:35,239 --> 00:15:39,929
yeah, we're interested just in the master income stream and that's just streaming,

208
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yeah. OK, so we're just interested in that. And then how do the publishing guys get paid?

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-- So -- publishing gets paid. It's hard if you're a songwriter, it's hard,

210
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you know, but publishing is you get paid on radio.

211
00:15:50,789 --> 00:15:55,619
So every time a song's played on radio, every time the song is synced on TV or film,

212
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you get paid. Every time the song is played in in a a performance,

213
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so. the bigger the venue, the more you get paid,

214
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so if I'm playing in a stadium, then the performance income there is very big.

215
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I'm playing in a pub, you still get performance income. But they don't get paid anything from the stream.

216
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They do get paid from the stream, but it's, it's, it's a lesser amount.

217
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Right, -- so the big money is in owning the master on -- the streaming side,

218
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but then at the same time, if you have a radio hit, you can make enormous money on the

219
00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:33,200
publishing side, OK, you know, -- so -- there's multiple streams each paid to different people

220
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who played a different part in each record. Exactly that, yeah, right, interesting.

221
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And what was your first big hit? My first hit was a song called Wearing My Rolex with Wiley in 2008.

222
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Right. So yeah, I remember that. And it was my first,

223
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and we were fighting Madonna for number one, it it got to number 2

224
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and it was the first time I was like just throwing it at the deep end and was like,

225
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had to just very quickly sink or swim and learn how to. Yeah,

226
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deal work and like understand hits basically. And was it easy to then

227
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navigate how to collect all the money from it, or it was like a quick lesson.

228
00:17:08,439 --> 00:17:13,449
No, I didn't know, I didn't know what I was doing, you know, like I look back at like a lot of things I did back then and

229
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I was out of my depth, but I, but I knew I wanted,

230
00:17:17,410 --> 00:17:20,410
I'd been given this opportunity. I had to figure it out,

231
00:17:20,510 --> 00:17:24,430
you know, there, there were times I was like. Way out of my depth,

232
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:30,469
but but at the same time I had to quickly understand how to keep up at this level,

233
00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,189
or I wouldn't be able to operate at this level. -- So -- what happened in the immediate aftermath of you

234
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dropping that tune? The music aftermath, the song became enormous,

235
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While he went on tour with Jay-Z, like tonnes of opportunities, we had to then quickly make an album,

236
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and it was just like frantic, frantically trying to make an album,

237
00:17:51,369 --> 00:17:58,089
you know, and you know -- we had to capitalise on on the -- on the moment and you know we kind of

238
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like ill advised him to put out the the next single which didn't do as well.

239
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And again it was just kind of like I don't think I was in a place where I fully.

240
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I didn't, you know, I obviously now like I could do that with my eyes closed,

241
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not, not in an arrogant way, but because I've lived enough life and I've done it enough times that I understand,

242
00:18:17,699 --> 00:18:21,060
kind of, I feel like I know what the right moves would be. So,

243
00:18:21,109 --> 00:18:26,640
so what would you have done different if you could go back in time with current knowledge?

244
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I think what I would have done different is bring different people on board.

245
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production wise, like idea wise, yeah, I, I think there's other people,

246
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:42,660
interesting people I would have brought into the mix, and I would have like focused more on trying to make.

247
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An iconic album as opposed to sort of just trying to have hits.

248
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You know, I think when you try and chase hits it kind of can come across that way.

249
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versus if you do something authentic, it, it will come across as that.

250
00:18:57,670 --> 00:19:01,829
So what did you do then? -- You just tried to make hits and -- I think we try to make,

251
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I tried to make records with him. Cos I was heavily,

252
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heavily in the studio with him at that time, with Jake

253
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Gosling and some other people, and I was with him in the studio every day and it was just like.

254
00:19:15,890 --> 00:19:19,839
Trying to kind of manufacture records that perhaps weren't as authentic.

255
00:19:19,969 --> 00:19:25,089
So you're just trying to go for commercial success -- versus like trying to make a tune that's -- bubbly,

256
00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:29,150
yeah, credible songs where it's like this, this speaks to something.

257
00:19:29,369 --> 00:19:33,390
Like I don't think there were songs on there were like 2 or 3 songs on that album

258
00:19:33,770 --> 00:19:39,719
that spoke to something or felt like exciting. But I think most of them were just throwaway songs that we thought,

259
00:19:39,810 --> 00:19:44,310
well this could be a hit, you know, as opposed to like doing things that felt like

260
00:19:44,689 --> 00:19:49,670
culturally, you know, I, I often think to myself when I see these lists of like

261
00:19:50,010 --> 00:19:54,310
most important sort of. British rap albums or this or this,

262
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I'm like, I, you know, we should have had one of those,

263
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you know, and we should be in that chart. I've definitely got singles that would be in that,

264
00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:06,520
but I don't feel that we made a definitive album, and that's something that always bugged me.

265
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Because at that time when he made wearing your Rolex, wearing my Rolex.

266
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Yeah, so where my Rolex. He must have been,

267
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that was off the back of like years of being a Grime MC.

268
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,119
Oh yeah, but he, he, he'd created a movement, a culture, he,

269
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he wasn't a new artist, but that was. So he must have already had like

270
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-- lyrics in the in the in the -- library, but he's a genius,

271
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yeah, and, and it, but it just was, he'd always kind of been amazing at making moments

272
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in time as opposed to like bodies of work. Like he,

273
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,199
he, you know, it's like. I think we made incredible

274
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singles, and there was one album where it was like I felt.

275
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Yeah, we, one of his albums we had 4 or 5 top 10 hits on and you know,

276
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that would have been an iconic album, but he decided to leak it.

277
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But that was the closest I think we came to

278
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:07,810
really and does that mess it up if it's leaked? Yeah, yeah, yeah, cos like everyone just had it for free online a few days before it was about to drop.

279
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Right. So then no one's gonna go and buy it cos they've got it.

280
00:21:12,189 --> 00:21:17,880
But do people still buy? No, -- but this was at -- that time. Yeah,

281
00:21:18,030 --> 00:21:21,099
I mean now physical product is, is a big thing, yeah.

282
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Physical product accounts for probably 60% of sales now,

283
00:21:26,109 --> 00:21:29,119
vinyl's, yeah, vinyl vinyl's back in a huge way,

284
00:21:29,189 --> 00:21:34,630
yeah. -- When you -- say 60% of sales, so when you see first week album sales of like,

285
00:21:34,709 --> 00:21:38,150
OK, Taylor Swift's at number one, or whoever's at number 1.

286
00:21:38,569 --> 00:21:42,050
Yeah. Playboy Cardi, whoever's at number one, it's like, well,

287
00:21:42,619 --> 00:21:47,099
probably 50-60% of their sales have come from people going

288
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and buying the vinyl version of their album. -- cos no one's buying CDs -- anymore.

289
00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:56,250
No, not really, but vinyl's come back. vinyl's back in the biggest way it's ever been,

290
00:21:56,380 --> 00:21:59,530
but people want vinyl to have in their house.

291
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Not necessarily play, but, but yeah,

292
00:22:02,859 --> 00:22:06,699
it could be like it's framed on the wall or it's just in a bookcase or whatever it is,

293
00:22:06,819 --> 00:22:10,930
you know, and it's like. That's, yeah, I'm surprised it's 60%.

294
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-- So what's the 40% -- streaming is, yeah, I mean streaming account,

295
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,439
it might be, it might actually be more, -- but -- it can't be one for one stream for it

296
00:22:20,349 --> 00:22:26,170
it's like some ratio of like 10 streams equals one sale or something. No, -- it's -- more like it's more like 1000 streams equals one sale,

297
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,339
so yeah, or 100 streams equals 1 I can't remember the precise.

298
00:22:31,050 --> 00:22:34,130
Interesting. So

299
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,030
What, what one failure or setback has taught you the most?

300
00:22:40,810 --> 00:22:46,800
I think you learn more from your failures, you know, like every mistake I've made.

301
00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:52,099
I've thought more about than any success I've had, and any success I've had,

302
00:22:52,810 --> 00:22:58,010
success is like a drug in terms of it's like addictive and you want more and more of it.

303
00:22:58,579 --> 00:23:02,790
But then it's like. Failures or setbacks

304
00:23:03,150 --> 00:23:08,229
make you adjust yourself or learn more to kind of try and have success because it's like

305
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,979
-- you -- don't question when you're winning, you're like, yes, of course I'm the best, -- yes -- but you

306
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:16,160
you do you you you kind of start to feel yourself a bit,

307
00:23:16,239 --> 00:23:22,390
and I think it's only when you have low moments that you kind of have to look within yourself and think,

308
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520
well, -- what am I doing -- wrong? Yeah, how could I have done this better?

309
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,439
What could I have done to make this situation work better or.

310
00:23:29,910 --> 00:23:32,959
You know, how could I have done this differently, or, or,

311
00:23:33,010 --> 00:23:36,280
you know, why didn't I get this person, or why,

312
00:23:36,810 --> 00:23:40,760
you know, is this artist I found now the biggest artist in the world,

313
00:23:40,810 --> 00:23:45,060
or whatever it is, you know, so it's like. I've been in situations,

314
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:50,949
you know, countless situations like that, you know, there's not one specific one that comes to mind,

315
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,449
but I think it's more. I've

316
00:23:55,329 --> 00:23:59,069
I've had to kind of. Yeah,

317
00:23:59,189 --> 00:24:02,819
I feel like I've learned more from times where.

318
00:24:03,770 --> 00:24:07,420
I've had setbacks or artists have left me or think,

319
00:24:07,479 --> 00:24:10,959
you know, relationships where you think, oh yeah,

320
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,349
you know this this producer or this artist is is like a lifer,

321
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,699
like you know we're just gonna like stay together for life, you know.

322
00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:22,719
And then they leave and then it's like you you kind of think to yourself, OK, well.

323
00:24:23,459 --> 00:24:26,910
What did I, what should I have done to, to prevent that? Or what can,

324
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:32,989
you know, and it's like you look within yourself, or I think the one thing I can think of is being more.

325
00:24:33,619 --> 00:24:37,000
What I've learned over the years is being more open minded to things,

326
00:24:37,130 --> 00:24:40,319
you know, I think a perfect example is, you know,

327
00:24:40,890 --> 00:24:45,719
I remember Jake introducing me to to Ed Sheeran before, he was anyone,

328
00:24:45,849 --> 00:24:49,160
you know, and I didn't get -- it at the time and I -- him

329
00:24:49,849 --> 00:24:53,410
perform and do his thing? Ed, -- Ed -- performed in my, my flat, in my living room,

330
00:24:53,569 --> 00:24:57,729
you know, and it was like I thought he was an amazing singer but I didn't get the rapping,

331
00:24:57,869 --> 00:25:04,109
you know, but, but at the same time. I don't, I can't sit here and say I could have gone on the journey with him

332
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,000
that Stuart, his manager has gone on, because that's their journey and like

333
00:25:08,319 --> 00:25:12,050
they've they've done that, their special bond together is what's made it amazing.

334
00:25:12,439 --> 00:25:17,500
But at the same time I was closed off. by the fact that I was like,

335
00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:23,030
oh. You know, I'm not sure I like the rapping or whatever it was at the time,

336
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:29,329
as opposed to kind of like being open to, yeah, just open to things or accepting things that,

337
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,619
you know, I might not always love something initially.

338
00:25:33,209 --> 00:25:37,489
But I shouldn't close myself off from opportunity or close myself off,

339
00:25:37,530 --> 00:25:41,369
and I think that's what. -- So -- you had a chance to manage Ed Sheeran.

340
00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:47,130
I don't know if I had a chance, you were in contact with him as a music manager before he was big,

341
00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:51,079
yeah, yeah. You know, and, and I don't know what that meant, but it's like.

342
00:25:51,979 --> 00:25:55,329
There's been one or two situations like that over the years where I,

343
00:25:55,459 --> 00:25:59,189
I've known people before they've become very big. And,

344
00:25:59,469 --> 00:26:04,939
and through my own like things I've been like, oh I don't know if I've talked myself out of things

345
00:26:05,310 --> 00:26:10,229
where it's like, and I think it's a sort of something I'm learning from my own life where it's like

346
00:26:10,550 --> 00:26:13,790
you can stay very closed minded in in like a way of

347
00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:16,949
thinking or a way of being or a way of operating, you know,

348
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,520
like you can be like oh well look I you know I only like doing this or only like

349
00:26:20,829 --> 00:26:24,670
going to this type of place or this or this, and you can have a good existence like that.

350
00:26:24,989 --> 00:26:28,939
But I think when you open your mind to like, OK, you know what, initially

351
00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,729
it might this might not be my wheelhouse, but why don't I try it?

352
00:26:32,949 --> 00:26:39,270
You know, you've got sometimes you sometimes like I didn't know how to get myself involved in

353
00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:44,140
a chart battle with Wiley with wearing my Rolex, but I jumped in the deep end of a swimming pool

354
00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:48,469
and tried, you know, and it's like I, I should have had more

355
00:26:48,869 --> 00:26:52,420
like maverick faith in myself at certain moments in my life.

356
00:26:52,969 --> 00:26:57,400
You know, that could have led to, to massive opportunities that got presented to me,

357
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,959
but I think I don't regret because I think you can become bitter

358
00:27:01,959 --> 00:27:06,030
in life if you look back and you regret, you're like, oh, you hold on to things.

359
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,670
I just kind of use those moments to be like when someone does come and see me

360
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,329
to remind myself, yeah, don't do that again. You know, like don't find

361
00:27:15,729 --> 00:27:21,479
what's wrong with something. Try and like if if anyone that works for me brings me an artist or thing.

362
00:27:21,829 --> 00:27:25,729
And I say to him, it doesn't matter if I like this. What matters is you like this

363
00:27:26,020 --> 00:27:29,780
to the point that I can see the passion you have for this.

364
00:27:30,260 --> 00:27:35,459
Because then my job is to help lift you up, and if you're telling me this is what we're betting on,

365
00:27:35,540 --> 00:27:38,810
if we're in a casino and you have to bet on red or black,

366
00:27:38,849 --> 00:27:42,969
and here's all your money, and we're betting on this. I'm going with that,

367
00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:47,500
doesn't matter if I I see it, well, I like it because. I'm not the oracle.

368
00:27:47,810 --> 00:27:51,219
So if the, -- if the artist likes it or -- no, if someone,

369
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:56,729
if someone within our team, -- because you have other managers -- I have to look after a team,

370
00:27:56,819 --> 00:27:59,979
so it's like if someone within our team is like, I love this producer,

371
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:03,689
-- I love this -- artist, -- and it's it's and it's not -- something that I love,

372
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,170
but they can convince me why.

373
00:28:07,630 --> 00:28:11,339
It's my job to back them and not be sort of closed minded and be like,

374
00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:14,930
oh no, we're not gonna do that, you know, it's like. I have to,

375
00:28:15,060 --> 00:28:18,180
I have to believe in my people and, and try and be open minded,

376
00:28:18,189 --> 00:28:22,369
but then open minded, but then a a a realm of like what I actually feel

377
00:28:22,739 --> 00:28:27,930
we can add value to, because, yeah, I guess with, I guess with music it's so unpredictable

378
00:28:28,260 --> 00:28:33,150
as to what will be a hit. It's not like if I if I do X Y Z,

379
00:28:33,300 --> 00:28:38,420
it will guaranteed be yeah, so yeah, there's no formula,

380
00:28:38,430 --> 00:28:43,560
but there is, you know, just a sense of like. And not everything has to be a hit.

381
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,270
It's just, it just has to be like we wanna work with things that feel

382
00:28:47,890 --> 00:28:51,010
credible and cool. And when people look at the roster, they're like,

383
00:28:51,089 --> 00:28:55,170
oh you know what, they've got a cool roster, as opposed to like. You know,

384
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:58,599
it, we're not kind of factory of hit, yeah, like, obviously,

385
00:28:58,739 --> 00:29:01,760
you know, we, we care about that and we like success.

386
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,050
Yeah, we're we're very fortunate that we've had some success,

387
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:08,229
but it's like, I care more about the fact that

388
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,150
people can see we're trying to build something or or year on year,

389
00:29:12,319 --> 00:29:15,479
you know, for, for the size we are, we, we punch above our weights,

390
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,560
-- you -- know. So like how many artists have you got under management currently?

391
00:29:20,550 --> 00:29:23,739
we, I think we've got 8 currently under management, yeah. OK,

392
00:29:24,430 --> 00:29:27,579
right. -- That's quite a lot to still dedicate your time -- to.

393
00:29:27,699 --> 00:29:32,160
But then I, but then, but then I, I'm lucky that I have 4 or 5 people that work for me,

394
00:29:32,750 --> 00:29:35,770
and their responsibility is to deal with these people day to day,

395
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:42,810
and then I only work on 1 or 2 projects myself. And then I kind of oversee or get involved in all the other projects

396
00:29:43,099 --> 00:29:46,140
together cos we work as a team. That's how I, otherwise,

397
00:29:46,260 --> 00:29:49,540
you know, we rather like focus on doing.

398
00:29:50,290 --> 00:29:53,400
Less things but do them well. We're not trying to do a 100 things,

399
00:29:53,479 --> 00:29:59,430
we're trying to do a few things we really believe in and everyone that works for us works on 2 or 3 things,

400
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:03,319
and we will work on them together. And then I jump in and it's a,

401
00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:06,709
I like working collaboratively with people, that's how I feel,

402
00:30:07,180 --> 00:30:12,439
brings out the best in me in that, you know, we'll all sit and we'll go with ideas and concepts and

403
00:30:12,959 --> 00:30:16,630
with everyone I work with, I work with, I have a partner in that

404
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,099
project or artist and. I find that helps me or pushes me or I push them

405
00:30:22,550 --> 00:30:27,979
in terms of could we be doing this, could we be doing that cos I find otherwise it's quite a lonely

406
00:30:28,550 --> 00:30:33,510
situation. It's nice to have someone to bounce ideas on. That's what I find brings out the best in me when

407
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:36,829
I have someone to be like even is this mad? And they'll be like,

408
00:30:36,949 --> 00:30:39,949
no, no, no, that's a good idea or someone will say to me,

409
00:30:40,030 --> 00:30:44,060
this writer or this person might be good with this person, I'll be like, oh yeah, I didn't think about that or

410
00:30:44,630 --> 00:30:48,339
you know whatever it may be, you know. Yeah,

411
00:30:48,469 --> 00:30:52,349
it's just good. I value everyone we work with in a partnership capacity,

412
00:30:52,989 --> 00:30:57,420
it's really beneficial to me. And managing artists must be.

413
00:30:58,250 --> 00:31:04,189
Quite, you must end up having to deal with a lot of their personal life as well,

414
00:31:04,250 --> 00:31:12,079
or that must come into that must affect -- the business -- side quite a lot or like we we we make a very clear distinction of like.

415
00:31:12,829 --> 00:31:16,540
Their life is their life. We're there to manage the business.

416
00:31:16,949 --> 00:31:21,660
We don't get involved in anything to do with their personal life. We don't want to know anything to do with their personal life.

417
00:31:22,069 --> 00:31:25,939
Our job is to manage the business. We manage whatever it is,

418
00:31:26,189 --> 00:31:29,739
limited company, you know, the the equivalent of like

419
00:31:30,109 --> 00:31:35,099
their entity. You know, if something happens within their personal life that affects the business,

420
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:42,199
then, you know, we. Obviously, obviously a mindful for whatever they need us to do in those moments,

421
00:31:42,209 --> 00:31:46,150
whether it's like we're having a baby, we need to stop touring or we're doing this,

422
00:31:46,189 --> 00:31:52,770
or, you know, but we're not there to be. Manage your relationships away from what we're there to do,

423
00:31:52,780 --> 00:31:56,010
and I think that's where some people are, I mean, I look,

424
00:31:56,140 --> 00:32:00,140
I'm not an oracle, but I think a manager's job is to focus on the business,

425
00:32:00,219 --> 00:32:03,530
you're not there to be an artist or a producer or a writer's best friend.

426
00:32:05,030 --> 00:32:09,609
And they're they're not your friend. ultimately they're your client. And that's how it should be,

427
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:13,939
and they need, they'll see you as their manager. You know, and it's like ultimately

428
00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:18,229
there might come a point where they, they don't see you as the right person for them,

429
00:32:18,329 --> 00:32:21,510
there's nothing wrong with that. And they might want to get a new person.

430
00:32:21,939 --> 00:32:26,890
And, and if it's like you've built this emotional attachment to them as a friend or this or that.

431
00:32:27,449 --> 00:32:30,650
-- Then that becomes very -- hard. It's like a breakup, yeah, emotional breakup.

432
00:32:30,819 --> 00:32:34,040
Well yeah, -- but but -- but it's like, of course I care about everyone I work with.

433
00:32:34,489 --> 00:32:37,560
But then from like having gone through things in life,

434
00:32:37,810 --> 00:32:42,609
you have to have distance between like, OK, I don't call you to talk about

435
00:32:42,969 --> 00:32:46,599
my day or what or this or or you know, banter with you or whatever.

436
00:32:46,979 --> 00:32:49,989
I'm here to talk about the business. -- I'm here to -- like,

437
00:32:50,109 --> 00:32:53,579
have you learned that lesson the hard way got too involved,

438
00:32:54,189 --> 00:32:58,260
but I've, I've always wanted to have distance between, I I think my whole life,

439
00:32:58,390 --> 00:33:04,869
but there, there were instances in the past where. I was very close with acts we worked with and and then you realise,

440
00:33:05,199 --> 00:33:09,310
OK, you know what, there has to be a balance here, you know, there has to be kind of like

441
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:15,239
I'm the manager. Yeah, like I'm not these guys' friends or I'm not there for whatever it is.

442
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,510
I ultimately they have to see me this way, I have to see them this way,

443
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,949
you know, I don't wanna know about their personal life. I don't wanna know.

444
00:33:22,979 --> 00:33:26,319
I wanna know like on Monday morning, what we're doing for the week,

445
00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:29,439
what's going on, this is, this, this, this, this. I don't, I don't care what,

446
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,880
you know, like. It's not my job to know what you get off on the weekend

447
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,959
unless it's a show that we're involved in or something we're involved in, you know,

448
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,000
I mean obviously like with music, and not in a heartless, I know what you mean,

449
00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:45,479
like you've got somehow draw a line. I mean, for some reason Entourage keeps popping into my head.

450
00:33:45,604 --> 00:33:50,185
The, the TV series, I keep thinking of like they have this thing of like we're a group,

451
00:33:50,395 --> 00:33:55,814
we're gonna go and make it all together and we'll all be best -- buddies and we'll all have success and we'll all feed off each -- other,

452
00:33:55,864 --> 00:33:59,234
but. And look, that's lovely you know I love that show more than anything,

453
00:33:59,334 --> 00:34:03,025
but I think at the same time it's amazing if you can have

454
00:34:03,805 --> 00:34:07,444
that feeling with people you work with, but ultimately,

455
00:34:07,694 --> 00:34:11,717
you know, there is. Look, in some situations,

456
00:34:11,849 --> 00:34:15,728
you know, like, I'm lucky with Jake who we work with,

457
00:34:15,809 --> 00:34:19,029
that I've been friends with him for a very long time and we worked together.

458
00:34:19,928 --> 00:34:23,368
Yeah, so I think but those situations that are rare, you know,

459
00:34:23,529 --> 00:34:26,928
so, so, so it's like, you know, but.

460
00:34:27,899 --> 00:34:31,330
Most situations, it it's a situation of like,

461
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,500
OK, you know what, we're here to do a job. Yeah, I guess you're getting new people now as well,

462
00:34:35,580 --> 00:34:39,179
so you're just meeting them in a professional context, -- but -- that's it,

463
00:34:39,300 --> 00:34:43,580
you know, it's nice obviously in in those scenarios with Jake or other people where

464
00:34:43,580 --> 00:34:46,830
it's like you've been friends with them and now you're working with them and

465
00:34:47,139 --> 00:34:50,899
you have the nice balance of knowing who they are as a person and blah blah blah.

466
00:34:51,289 --> 00:34:54,928
But with new people we're working with, we've been hired to do a job.

467
00:34:55,579 --> 00:34:59,579
They're not coming to us to be friends, they're coming to us to be killers,

468
00:34:59,698 --> 00:35:04,858
you know, they want us to go and improve their contracts or find them a hit or or whatever the,

469
00:35:04,898 --> 00:35:08,259
-- the -- dream is. So are you still getting in the studio yourself much or no,

470
00:35:08,499 --> 00:35:14,618
now it's just like booking it in and sending them off but but but what I'm here now to do is.

471
00:35:14,699 --> 00:35:19,000
Is now to kind of think of the ideas of like, OK, well who could work well in the studio.

472
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:22,330
So it's like I'm vicariously in the studio, but I'm not,

473
00:35:22,449 --> 00:35:26,879
I, I sadly don't get to spend -- time in studios -- like I used to.

474
00:35:27,090 --> 00:35:32,189
I'm more involved in the creative side. -- I think -- I eventually maybe at some point later in life,

475
00:35:32,330 --> 00:35:35,729
but you know I do I love the bus. I live for the deals now,

476
00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:39,929
you know, I love, I love the business side of it. -- So let's -- just,

477
00:35:40,209 --> 00:35:43,800
let's just break it down. You, you get a brand new artist,

478
00:35:44,459 --> 00:35:47,800
what deals are you trying to make for them? Are you getting them a record deal?

479
00:35:48,050 --> 00:35:51,120
-- So brand -- new artist, the deals that we could do,

480
00:35:52,050 --> 00:35:55,159
record deal, publishing deal, if something's gone well.

481
00:35:55,489 --> 00:36:00,399
If something's gone really well, neighbouring rights deal. Neighbouring rights is,

482
00:36:00,489 --> 00:36:04,209
you know, if you've played on a song. So again, it's like performance income.

483
00:36:04,850 --> 00:36:08,989
So then if something's gone really well in America. You could do

484
00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:13,409
BMI deal, or ASCAP deal, they're two collection societies in America.

485
00:36:13,739 --> 00:36:17,860
So it's like, if you've had a big hit in America, those things are open,

486
00:36:17,939 --> 00:36:22,469
so it's about as a manager knowing what. Deals are out there and what.

487
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,760
-- And are -- those the milestones like don't worry, I'll take you,

488
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,399
I'll get you those things. It's, it's stepping stones,

489
00:36:29,439 --> 00:36:33,189
it's knowing when to do those things like, you know, -- is -- the record deal still

490
00:36:33,479 --> 00:36:38,159
the aim? I mean, you hear so many like sort of stories of artists

491
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:42,320
speaking out like oh don't get a record deal, it's bad type thing.

492
00:36:42,679 --> 00:36:46,429
-- I that true or stay independent or my -- view is this, it's like

493
00:36:46,919 --> 00:36:50,479
why do you need the record deal? You know, it's like you should be trying to own.

494
00:36:50,889 --> 00:36:55,219
Your masters. You you you need the record deal if it's like you're a certain type of artist.

495
00:36:55,389 --> 00:37:00,070
If you're trying to be a pop star, if you're trying to be Dua Lipa or Ed Sheeran,

496
00:37:00,439 --> 00:37:05,620
you need the record label, you need the level of investment, you need the level of international marketing,

497
00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:09,780
infrastructure, team, etc. If you're trying to be,

498
00:37:10,070 --> 00:37:13,379
I don't know, and then like you're paying for all that ultimately anyway. Exactly.

499
00:37:13,669 --> 00:37:17,540
So all that stuff they pay for, but then that's just a debt.

500
00:37:17,629 --> 00:37:20,929
I think the facts are, if you're trying to be a pop star, Sabrina Carpenter,

501
00:37:20,989 --> 00:37:27,340
you need the record label. No no major pop star has come through independently.

502
00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:31,979
If you're trying to be the next central C or the next disclosure or,

503
00:37:32,070 --> 00:37:39,139
you know, bicep or whatever. Then 100% there's so many avenues to you being independent and owning your music and

504
00:37:39,620 --> 00:37:44,459
those that type of both genres of music lends itself so easily

505
00:37:44,979 --> 00:37:48,889
to winning independently. And then you retain creative control,

506
00:37:48,979 --> 00:37:52,530
you're not being pushed into stuff you don't -- because it's more commercial -- and it's your label,

507
00:37:52,540 --> 00:37:55,729
you own the rights, you can sell those rights at any point.

508
00:37:56,060 --> 00:38:00,370
But you know, the one thing that I think will always remain stable is if you're.

509
00:38:00,929 --> 00:38:04,270
If you're trying to be a pop star, you do need the record label, you know,

510
00:38:04,429 --> 00:38:07,510
the investment is what they do, what does the record label do?

511
00:38:07,649 --> 00:38:10,780
-- They will record your -- stuff. Record label, no,

512
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,389
the record label's there to fund things, so you, so it's like they'll say,

513
00:38:14,439 --> 00:38:18,550
OK, Di, you wanna be, you wanna be Elton John,

514
00:38:18,590 --> 00:38:22,379
they'll say, OK, you need to go in the studio with this producer.

515
00:38:22,689 --> 00:38:26,939
And it's gonna cost this much money to make your album. Here's a recording budget.

516
00:38:26,979 --> 00:38:31,689
It's gonna cost 1000 to make your album. Here's 100,000 to go and make this album,

517
00:38:32,020 --> 00:38:35,179
try work with this producer, this writer. OK,

518
00:38:35,389 --> 00:38:38,429
here's a 100,000 advance, so you've got some money to live on.

519
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,540
Now, is that money not for the recording?

520
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:48,780
No, so there'll be there'll be a separate recording budget, so there'll be a recording budget to pay for producers,

521
00:38:48,979 --> 00:38:56,629
mix engineers, studios, blah blah blah. Then there'll be a budget for you in advance that goes in your that goes,

522
00:38:56,949 --> 00:39:00,679
that's your money to do as you wish to keep you going. Then

523
00:39:00,919 --> 00:39:05,909
they'll, they might, if you're, you know, kind of you wanna do some shows or you're,

524
00:39:05,959 --> 00:39:09,969
you're kind of an up and coming artist, it might make sense for you to have tour support

525
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:14,389
where they might say, OK, you know what, it's, it's quite expensive for you to put on shows.

526
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,820
So they might say, OK, well, here's 500 for you to,

527
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,729
to be able to afford to hire some musicians and go and play some shows in other countries,

528
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,879
so we can try and open this out. So they would be like,

529
00:39:25,919 --> 00:39:29,699
OK, here's some tool support. And then. You know,

530
00:39:29,979 --> 00:39:35,939
those those are kind of the initial things, but then. What else a major label will bring is is a team,

531
00:39:36,060 --> 00:39:39,189
digital marketing, marketing, international marketing, you know,

532
00:39:39,429 --> 00:39:42,669
if a song of yours suddenly starts doing well in France, Germany,

533
00:39:42,899 --> 00:39:48,790
Australia, they've got offices in all these places and they can start spending domestically in those places.

534
00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:54,139
So that's the thing of like, if you're having a hit, a major can really start,

535
00:39:54,229 --> 00:39:58,979
if you're having a hit, they they know how leverage they can they can leverage it and make it a lot bigger,

536
00:39:59,179 --> 00:40:04,209
you know, because they have got, you know, they. -- Know how to really spend when something's -- happening.

537
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:07,379
And is that something that you wanna go into when you say you wanna go into, so yeah,

538
00:40:07,879 --> 00:40:11,219
right, yeah, but we're, we're not chasing hits, we're, we,

539
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,489
we just wanna be like signing cool things,

540
00:40:14,580 --> 00:40:17,629
you know, and you know obviously the dream is you find something amazing,

541
00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:21,889
but ultimately it's just about finding tasteful things and building things.

542
00:40:22,260 --> 00:40:25,530
We've got, we've set up a label, we've got a label called Hotel Records,

543
00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:30,270
which we're partners with with Jake. That is funded by Atlantic and goes through ADA.

544
00:40:30,330 --> 00:40:33,419
It's like a singer-songwriter label. And the vibe is,

545
00:40:33,459 --> 00:40:37,010
yeah, just trying to sign cool credible things that we think

546
00:40:37,459 --> 00:40:41,419
we're building a good catalogue of artists we can be proud of. -- What -- genres are you in,

547
00:40:41,459 --> 00:40:45,659
or is it quite mixed? Well, with Jake it's like singer-songwriters or like bands.

548
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:49,810
It's like kind of things that fit in his wheelhouse of like things he's produced,

549
00:40:49,899 --> 00:40:53,959
you know, like Ed type artists basically. And

550
00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:59,120
he ended up not producing Ed Sheeran's later albums after Ed went off and did his own thing.

551
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,639
Yeah, because people need to kind of grow and experiment,

552
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:08,840
you know, they're still close, we, we speak to, we're fortunate to still be in his life and .

553
00:41:09,629 --> 00:41:14,790
You know, but, but ultimately there'll always be a special bond because ultimately,

554
00:41:14,989 --> 00:41:18,189
you know, -- that -- was the first album was that one that was called

555
00:41:18,189 --> 00:41:22,540
Plus and then before that they did 5 mixtapes together,

556
00:41:22,750 --> 00:41:27,719
you know, and then Ed Jake did Thinking Out Loud with Ed on the second album,

557
00:41:27,909 --> 00:41:32,219
so it's like, ultimately they went on a journey together and

558
00:41:32,350 --> 00:41:35,479
people then. Grow apart and wanna try other things.

559
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:41,479
There's nothing wrong with that, that's that's life, you know. And then who else do you have then,

560
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,840
so you've got Jake, he's like a singer songwriter,

561
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,969
producer, and you just had a huge hit

562
00:41:49,219 --> 00:41:56,120
with water, right? Yeah, we yeah, we did the whole Tyler album with a producer called Sammy Sosa we were working with,

563
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:59,629
yeah, exactly. And that one's got like,

564
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:03,219
was it the first African. So over a billion stream,

565
00:42:03,340 --> 00:42:06,489
yeah. And it won a Grammy as well,

566
00:42:07,530 --> 00:42:12,060
so that was a good 10, congratulations, well done. And so,

567
00:42:12,340 --> 00:42:17,459
so how are you seeing the industry change as well, like now with AI coming in and

568
00:42:17,979 --> 00:42:21,300
you know that seems to be affecting all the creative industries,

569
00:42:21,419 --> 00:42:26,300
film, people are worried about copyright and also just kind of creativity and that

570
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:30,949
I could go and chat GBT and ask it to write me. Songs similar to this or this,

571
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,760
and it's like, whilst before, you know, it would be like people's minds or you know just kind

572
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,120
of creative people in a room coming up with these songs,

573
00:42:40,199 --> 00:42:45,520
these iconic songs, you know, Imagine or John Lennon or like Hey Jude or whatever,

574
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,389
you know, like iconic songs, now they'll type into chat GBT,

575
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:54,580
write me a song like Imagine. And it's like it stems,

576
00:42:54,639 --> 00:43:00,629
it takes away some of the creative. Brilliance that you've had in the past and then

577
00:43:01,389 --> 00:43:05,120
you know you want to believe it can be used in a way to be like

578
00:43:05,469 --> 00:43:09,020
give me ideas like this and then it might spur something on

579
00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:12,090
that leads to more genius and I think in that instance,

580
00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:16,939
incredible, you know, I think where it kind of people depend on it too much,

581
00:43:17,469 --> 00:43:22,520
I think is is not great, you know, because ultimately storytelling is about storytelling,

582
00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:27,489
it's not about generic. Kind of like tell me what my story should be about

583
00:43:27,739 --> 00:43:34,530
from a a Google search. -- I guess -- it could be like used in certain parts of the workflow

584
00:43:35,060 --> 00:43:38,820
of the creative process, so but that's great if it is,

585
00:43:38,939 --> 00:43:43,379
but if you depend on it. -- But if -- you're like getting it to come up with even the initial idea,

586
00:43:43,419 --> 00:43:46,820
-- that's kind of ridiculous -- but then but then you shouldn't be in that industry,

587
00:43:47,179 --> 00:43:53,260
I guess the other worry initially was when. A first started really kicking off was,

588
00:43:53,459 --> 00:43:59,530
you know, people were putting up songs cos there's so many AI things where you can mimic people's voices.

589
00:43:59,620 --> 00:44:04,290
So there were songs coming online with like Drake's voice, there was a song with like the Weekend's voice.

590
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:11,169
And these songs came online, did massive amounts of streams, and then obviously got taken down immediately with like copyright

591
00:44:11,169 --> 00:44:16,250
-- laws and other things and -- so is it currently copyrighted someone's

592
00:44:18,879 --> 00:44:23,129
the sound you could literally with various AI things, no,

593
00:44:23,209 --> 00:44:28,330
you could literally write some lyrics now. Me and you could write a song now and say.

594
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:32,820
Record and and on this AI app, I can't remember the name of it,

595
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:38,899
but there's an app where it literally can transpose something into whatever artist you can think of

596
00:44:38,899 --> 00:44:42,550
and it sounds precisely like that artist. Like no,

597
00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:45,899
note for note, it's like you wouldn't be able, there's no post on earth.

598
00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:49,270
Anyone would listen to it, everything, everything the same,

599
00:44:49,669 --> 00:44:53,979
the same. -- And that's provable -- that no, I mean, but but the the problem is

600
00:44:54,229 --> 00:44:57,580
then people will be like, OK, well this.

601
00:44:58,020 --> 00:45:01,820
This is obviously not Adele -- singing these -- lyrics or if you,

602
00:45:01,939 --> 00:45:04,969
if you don't say it is Adele, can you put it out?

603
00:45:05,179 --> 00:45:09,419
I mean, but that's where, you know, recently, yeah, that's where it gets grey and you know

604
00:45:09,419 --> 00:45:12,699
that's where like copyright law is being kind of

605
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:16,770
worked on because as with anything, when change comes about

606
00:45:17,179 --> 00:45:20,860
laws and things have to change because people haven't thought about these things.

607
00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:24,080
I guess it's like with patents. There might be patents out,

608
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,800
but if you adjust a patent a little bit, you can put out something kind of similar.

609
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:32,040
Maybe it's the same with like these voices if you just twist the voice a tiny bit,

610
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,080
so it's not exactly the same, -- but it's very -- similar. But it's grey,

611
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,229
you know, and that's the problem, you know, cos ultimately

612
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,000
if I'm a record label and I've signed Adele,

613
00:45:42,159 --> 00:45:45,560
let's just say to to said record label. I don't know why I thought of that,

614
00:45:45,659 --> 00:45:48,760
but you know, just if, if I have signed her and then I,

615
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,919
you've come along and you've made, but I've paid her.

616
00:45:52,310 --> 00:45:57,330
A lot of money to have her on my label, and then you've come along with your AI platform

617
00:45:57,580 --> 00:46:01,209
and you've made an album. But it sounds identical to her.

618
00:46:01,219 --> 00:46:04,250
Yeah. Where, where's my protection?

619
00:46:04,419 --> 00:46:07,610
You know is there protection? But there is under copyright law,

620
00:46:07,699 --> 00:46:11,459
-- but obviously there's these grey areas that are being kind of more like -- when

621
00:46:11,459 --> 00:46:15,070
-- the and the Drake songs exactly that and were -- they able to take them,

622
00:46:15,219 --> 00:46:18,729
they were able to take them down because they were able to prove that, you know, that this,

623
00:46:18,939 --> 00:46:22,050
that they, these were like, yeah, but these were

624
00:46:22,340 --> 00:46:26,110
sort of clear sort of. Imitation,

625
00:46:26,149 --> 00:46:29,750
yeah, people trying to sort of pretend they were something they weren't.

626
00:46:29,830 --> 00:46:33,260
They were falsely kind of misleading to the public of like

627
00:46:33,550 --> 00:46:36,739
-- this is a new weekend and -- label it as

628
00:46:36,739 --> 00:46:41,780
that, yeah, but it, but even if it wasn't labelled as that, it's clear that you're trying to sell something.

629
00:46:42,209 --> 00:46:45,489
Off the back of this, -- you haven't labelled -- people do that anyway in

630
00:46:45,489 --> 00:46:49,820
terms of like inspired by other types of, but that's fine if it's,

631
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,600
but if it's a, if it's clear clearly labelled

632
00:46:53,729 --> 00:46:56,959
-- as a cover or an -- interpolation, but even like.

633
00:46:57,195 --> 00:47:04,435
I don't know. Any art, -- like people are influenced by other artists -- to actually copying someone's voice.

634
00:47:04,554 --> 00:47:07,784
-- Yeah like -- exactly like impersonation,

635
00:47:08,915 --> 00:47:12,064
yeah, that's right you wouldn't be able to tell me the difference between

636
00:47:12,514 --> 00:47:15,824
the Adele or Drake impersonator or the real thing.

637
00:47:15,915 --> 00:47:19,584
You would be like, well, that's the same thing. It's so scary how

638
00:47:20,074 --> 00:47:25,364
accurate it is. You would, there's no scenario on earth you'd be able to tell the difference.

639
00:47:25,879 --> 00:47:30,590
Yeah. And that was the worry with films, you know, I don't know that much about the movie business,

640
00:47:30,629 --> 00:47:36,219
but when all these strikes happened. It was because yeah, they can just get an AI likeness of an actor.

641
00:47:36,350 --> 00:47:39,989
Yeah, I'd be like well we'll just do that. -- I've -- I've played with it a bit myself.

642
00:47:40,030 --> 00:47:43,500
I was just showing some of the guys earlier that you can even

643
00:47:43,989 --> 00:47:47,110
create, you can put a photo of someone in as a as a

644
00:47:47,110 --> 00:47:51,169
reference and you could even put what clothes they're gonna wear, say what scene they're gonna be in,

645
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:55,750
and then you can lip sync but but think how much. -- And -- that's just with like cheap.

646
00:47:56,004 --> 00:47:59,965
Retail consumer based software, but then if I'm an actor or something,

647
00:48:00,074 --> 00:48:03,364
think how that's suddenly like well what about me,

648
00:48:03,485 --> 00:48:08,965
do you know what I mean? And it's the same if I'm a musician. Well, -- I guess it -- will push the acting into some new

649
00:48:08,965 --> 00:48:12,294
area I mean they'll they'll probably have to start, -- I know -- it's gonna evolve or like

650
00:48:12,294 --> 00:48:15,554
singing or like all the musicians,

651
00:48:15,564 --> 00:48:19,195
whatever, like maybe there's like new types of music that can be made.

652
00:48:19,610 --> 00:48:22,840
You know, maybe there's like music that could be

653
00:48:23,209 --> 00:48:26,489
integrated with AI so like you have a live DJ

654
00:48:26,489 --> 00:48:29,639
that has cameras facing all the crowds and it's live,

655
00:48:29,889 --> 00:48:34,550
getting the reactions. -- Are they going wild feeding back into what the next mix might be that -- it,

656
00:48:34,649 --> 00:48:39,320
you know. I don't know what it is, but you know it's exciting and I think you have to embrace change in technology.

657
00:48:39,610 --> 00:48:43,320
I think if you don't, -- you're gonna get left -- behind. 100%. I, I, I remember,

658
00:48:43,449 --> 00:48:46,699
you know, sitting in a room. with this guy called Brian,

659
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,409
who was one of the first employees at Spotify, and he showed me Spotify.

660
00:48:50,739 --> 00:48:57,350
And, and it was the, the, the, the initial office was like 6 or 7 people in this office in Soho,

661
00:48:57,979 --> 00:49:01,010
and I was like, I don't get it.

662
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:05,659
You know, I didn't get it. Well, no, I got it, but I just didn't think anyone would be into it

663
00:49:05,659 --> 00:49:10,370
because at the time iTunes was such a thing. iTunes was the dominant thing.

664
00:49:10,739 --> 00:49:13,899
Everyone had iTunes. Before that it was like Napster.

665
00:49:14,469 --> 00:49:20,929
And I just, I, I just thought this is gonna take so much investment and so many people need to buy into this

666
00:49:21,340 --> 00:49:25,550
for you, for people to stop caring about iTunes. -- And -- for them to be able to

667
00:49:25,699 --> 00:49:31,370
pay all the artists. I mean, -- if you've got everybody yeah but -- at the time I didn't,

668
00:49:31,459 --> 00:49:35,510
you know, I didn't have the foresight to, you know, to see it,

669
00:49:35,580 --> 00:49:38,620
you know, I, I, I even, I was in Sweden. I, I remember, you know,

670
00:49:38,739 --> 00:49:43,689
not only did I go to the office in London, but I was in the office in Sweden in the early days and it was like.

671
00:49:44,209 --> 00:49:47,620
I didn't understand it, I didn't foresee what it could be,

672
00:49:47,709 --> 00:49:51,100
you know, but it's like, but I think instead of

673
00:49:51,330 --> 00:49:56,500
like we spoke earlier about mistakes and lessons and things,

674
00:49:56,550 --> 00:49:59,939
it's like. You have to look at things sometimes I might not

675
00:49:59,939 --> 00:50:03,399
-- understand what the next tech that's the thing -- now, but that's the thing like in the,

676
00:50:03,459 --> 00:50:07,419
in a similar way, I think we have to be very careful to just dismiss

677
00:50:07,419 --> 00:50:10,459
AI as like no that that's that's not good for us,

678
00:50:10,610 --> 00:50:15,810
right? Like in terms of, you know, blockbuster video versus Netflix,

679
00:50:15,870 --> 00:50:23,375
so. Thing is that happening now and what big what big companies or industries could just be totally transformed by that and

680
00:50:23,665 --> 00:50:26,745
how do you get ahead of that? -- But that's -- it, -- that's what we've gotta -- think.

681
00:50:26,784 --> 00:50:33,854
And how can you get your artist to use AI still with a creativity because I always see AI as just like a very

682
00:50:34,104 --> 00:50:37,864
obedient, efficient worker. So

683
00:50:38,544 --> 00:50:45,090
in the same way how if you have someone that works for you. Their work is gonna be based on how clear your instructions are

684
00:50:45,379 --> 00:50:50,659
and how sort of your follow up to the work they've done and being like no change that,

685
00:50:50,739 --> 00:50:54,219
change that, change that, which is what happens anyway in a corporate structure,

686
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,330
but you've got somebody who can do the work instantly and

687
00:50:57,540 --> 00:51:01,169
isn't upset that you're gonna go back to them and say no change at all.

688
00:51:01,379 --> 00:51:04,600
They're not gonna be like, I just worked on this for 2 weeks, he's gonna be like, sure,

689
00:51:04,739 --> 00:51:09,040
right away, sir. -- But that's kind of thing -- you've got to embrace change,

690
00:51:09,169 --> 00:51:12,729
and I think that's what I've had to learn, you know, I think I was so

691
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,120
closed off sometimes to change or scared of change or other things,

692
00:51:17,290 --> 00:51:23,600
and you know, it's like I've seen so many different iterations. You've gotta think like when I sort of start with wearing my Rolex,

693
00:51:23,969 --> 00:51:26,969
that that came out on CD it wasn't even about download then,

694
00:51:27,010 --> 00:51:31,370
it was about CD, you know, so it was like I've had to constantly.

695
00:51:31,850 --> 00:51:35,000
Learn and adapt to different iterations of doing things,

696
00:51:35,090 --> 00:51:40,010
you know, to now today's age where it's like, it's all about is it gonna pop off on TikTok,

697
00:51:40,209 --> 00:51:43,879
is it gonna do this, is it gonna do that, like. AI this,

698
00:51:43,959 --> 00:51:47,350
that, it's it's like if you don't adapt or

699
00:51:47,879 --> 00:51:50,929
keep up with the then you're gonna get left behind.

700
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,229
Yeah, especially as you're kind of always gonna wanna be tapping into the next

701
00:51:55,229 --> 00:51:59,139
generation and their culture and and the way they do things and consume,

702
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:03,360
etc. like you mentioned TikTok, is that a big part of your strate?

703
00:52:03,935 --> 00:52:07,514
-- Probably -- 60 or 70% of global hit songs come from TikTok.

704
00:52:08,375 --> 00:52:13,324
Yeah, -- TikTok even like but -- on TikTok, but TikTok creates

705
00:52:13,635 --> 00:52:17,945
hits like nothing else. Is that because there's so much like people take

706
00:52:17,945 --> 00:52:22,705
it and then they do these dance routines. Yeah, things, things take on a different life on TikTok,

707
00:52:22,784 --> 00:52:27,360
you know, like . The it also just shows you how

708
00:52:27,489 --> 00:52:32,439
quickly a song can become. There's there's never been any platform where

709
00:52:32,810 --> 00:52:39,040
you could be, you could have no followers on TikTok and you post a video on there tomorrow.

710
00:52:39,570 --> 00:52:42,760
And you could have 10 million views. Right,

711
00:52:42,850 --> 00:52:48,090
but, but what any other platform, you need to have. They won't even show it to people until you've got more,

712
00:52:48,179 --> 00:52:52,860
so they will show like a video that was made by somebody with

713
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:56,510
-- no followers -- if they if they think the content is good enough,

714
00:52:56,659 --> 00:53:00,040
you know, is that just the algorithm, it's just the algorithm, yeah,

715
00:53:00,260 --> 00:53:04,510
you know, so it's so but it, you know, and that's just like. You know,

716
00:53:04,850 --> 00:53:08,239
countless songs that we've been fortunate to be involved with have

717
00:53:08,620 --> 00:53:13,000
have become, you know, you mentioned Tyler earlier, like Tyler's song Water became

718
00:53:13,449 --> 00:53:16,530
a monster hit from TikTok. You know what you do,

719
00:53:17,209 --> 00:53:20,340
-- did you manufacture that -- was nothing to do with us. We,

720
00:53:20,489 --> 00:53:24,610
we don't manage Tyler, you know, we managed the producer who made the song,

721
00:53:24,689 --> 00:53:29,060
but it was like . You know, people, she did a dance routine

722
00:53:29,350 --> 00:53:32,409
on TikTok and millions of people,

723
00:53:32,909 --> 00:53:36,989
yeah, to that song, and millions of people copied it and. It just went

724
00:53:37,229 --> 00:53:41,030
berserk, you know. But it's not always a dance routine,

725
00:53:41,070 --> 00:53:46,050
it could be, you know, any, any type of thing, but people somehow connect to a song and,

726
00:53:46,070 --> 00:53:52,469
and then a song takes on a different, completely different life because of something that someone has

727
00:53:52,469 --> 00:53:58,590
heard in a song that they think is. In a way it's in a way that's positive because it's democratised everything,

728
00:53:58,709 --> 00:54:01,939
right? Anybody can just put a video up on. But that, but that's the point.

729
00:54:02,030 --> 00:54:05,350
When I came into music, there were a lot of gatekeepers,

730
00:54:05,429 --> 00:54:10,260
you know, if you wanted to have a hit, you had to go and please this one at radio or please this one or,

731
00:54:10,350 --> 00:54:15,010
you know, it was like no but like the labels held so,

732
00:54:15,149 --> 00:54:19,810
so much power in those days, it was like. It wasn't this kind of

733
00:54:20,020 --> 00:54:23,110
democratic thing where anyone could have a hit.

734
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,659
-- The labels kind of were gonna decide who was gonna have a -- hit. Even the like recording equipment and software

735
00:54:28,659 --> 00:54:31,860
is just available just on your phone, you don't need, yeah,

736
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,129
you know what I mean, you don't, you don't need a fancy studio, you don't need, it's like you are

737
00:54:36,340 --> 00:54:40,010
as creative as you are. Everything is there for anyone to win.

738
00:54:40,489 --> 00:54:43,760
Anyone that thinks you need shiny things or I'm not winning because

739
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,399
I'm not with this label or this manager or this or this, you're delusional,

740
00:54:47,479 --> 00:54:52,870
you're not winning because you, you have the wrong mindset. Everything is there and available for you to win.

741
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:58,580
You just need to wake up and see that it starts with you. Yeah, and you can start with very cheap,

742
00:54:58,649 --> 00:55:02,340
free software on your phone, start to record, get creative,

743
00:55:02,350 --> 00:55:06,000
and yeah, -- just start -- if you can't, if you can't do it like that,

744
00:55:06,459 --> 00:55:11,439
you're not gonna, you're not gonna go into like the massive fancy studio and it's all gonna be better.

745
00:55:11,570 --> 00:55:14,610
-- And -- it's yeah, it's not necessarily better as well,

746
00:55:14,729 --> 00:55:19,280
right? 100%, you know. I remember, I remember being in fancy studios with people

747
00:55:19,570 --> 00:55:25,209
and them saying to me, you know what, like, it's not really a vibe, like it was better like when we were doing music like.

748
00:55:25,540 --> 00:55:28,840
In our bed in the bedroom or in the shed or whatever it is

749
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:33,219
-- because it just felt like raw -- about that like with creativity is about,

750
00:55:33,590 --> 00:55:36,739
you know, like creating a vibe and then capturing the vibe,

751
00:55:37,070 --> 00:55:40,979
right into, you know, whether it's audio or video or both,

752
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:45,979
and yeah, and getting the right set and setting and work flow

753
00:55:46,229 --> 00:55:49,800
to consistently make that magic. Like you look at some

754
00:55:50,110 --> 00:55:54,909
of these producers like Rick Rubin, it's like doesn't even. -- Get involved in -- anything.

755
00:55:55,030 --> 00:55:58,729
I'm, I'm obsessed with Rick. I'm, I'm finishing his book at the moment.

756
00:55:58,989 --> 00:56:03,780
Yeah, yeah, -- and I finish his -- book. I listened to the audio book because it's him talking,

757
00:56:03,949 --> 00:56:07,110
-- so it's like even he's got such a calm voice -- as well. But you know what it is,

758
00:56:07,750 --> 00:56:13,060
there's so many inspirational quotes, so like there's a particular quote that's not in the book,

759
00:56:13,149 --> 00:56:16,459
but, but he, he said once that I, I recite all the time,

760
00:56:16,550 --> 00:56:19,899
which is like . Your job as an artist is to paint,

761
00:56:20,020 --> 00:56:23,729
right? My job as a, as a manager is to frame and sell.

762
00:56:24,260 --> 00:56:27,610
I don't tell you what to paint. You have to be able to paint.

763
00:56:28,260 --> 00:56:32,050
You know, like too many artists will think, oh, you're the manager, you're the record label.

764
00:56:32,449 --> 00:56:36,409
You've got, he's, but he's down as a producer, right? What is it, so he's a producer,

765
00:56:36,419 --> 00:56:39,429
but he, he co-founded Def Jam as well. But,

766
00:56:39,459 --> 00:56:43,929
but he. But you know what a lot of people have a misconception is like,

767
00:56:44,250 --> 00:56:48,189
oh we need to be with this, if we get with the shiny manager or the shiny label,

768
00:56:48,959 --> 00:56:52,709
with all this success is gonna come or this thing's gonna be better, but ultimately

769
00:56:53,399 --> 00:56:58,040
if you aren't great at your craft at painting or creating.

770
00:56:58,870 --> 00:57:03,020
What's gonna be better, you know, ultimately if you have

771
00:57:03,350 --> 00:57:09,419
that vibe within you, if it's like you are that Basquiat or you are that kind of creative genius,

772
00:57:10,030 --> 00:57:16,820
it's gonna come to light. Yeah, and, and the manager and label's job is to like shine more light into what you're doing,

773
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:21,300
but they can't like elevate something that isn't -- there -- anyway. You can't make someone,

774
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:24,580
you can't turn someone into. You know,

775
00:57:24,889 --> 00:57:28,679
Kendrick Lamar or or Basquiat or whatever who who just aren't that,

776
00:57:29,090 --> 00:57:32,679
you know, so yeah, but yeah, you can't there needs to be

777
00:57:33,010 --> 00:57:36,439
that amount of talent where all you're doing then is just like

778
00:57:36,770 --> 00:57:42,000
shining a bigger light on that the talent needs to be there to start with.

779
00:57:42,250 --> 00:57:48,050
Yeah, so how do you source talent? Like if there's some young guy thinks I'm.

780
00:57:48,580 --> 00:57:52,030
You know, what advice would you give to some young guy, should they

781
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,929
first work on their craft and start putting stuff out solo

782
00:57:56,479 --> 00:58:01,120
before they think of getting like a manager contract or record label?

783
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:05,830
-- I -- say to people like this, like a manager relationship is like a relationship,

784
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,300
like a dating relationship. You're not gonna rush into

785
00:58:09,919 --> 00:58:14,270
getting married, are you? You, you wanna get to know someone, you wanna feel that this is right for you.

786
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:21,010
So it's like you need to kind of feel. You're in a place where you can't now do things.

787
00:58:21,699 --> 00:58:24,820
You need now need help to elevate what you're doing, you know,

788
00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:28,199
so it's like that's the moment you need a manager. Yeah,

789
00:58:28,419 --> 00:58:32,409
you've got, you've got things as far as you can yourself,

790
00:58:32,580 --> 00:58:36,010
and now is the time that you need help to kick on

791
00:58:36,620 --> 00:58:40,340
or that you're just this raw talent and it's like. You know,

792
00:58:40,419 --> 00:58:43,820
you spot, we spot a diamond in the rough and it's like, OK, you know what,

793
00:58:43,919 --> 00:58:47,739
we wanna go on this journey from the very beginning with this person.

794
00:58:48,449 --> 00:58:54,550
So how would you source talent like well through -- your existing contact -- through existing contact things we've done,

795
00:58:54,820 --> 00:58:58,459
you know, people sometimes come to us with opportunities or.

796
00:58:58,949 --> 00:59:04,739
Just constantly gotta be on, on your grind, you've gotta be letting people know you're open and available to things,

797
00:59:04,939 --> 00:59:08,469
you know, I also just spend a stupid amount of time on TikTok.

798
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:12,899
It's also just like, yeah, but it's also just like our team's job to

799
00:59:13,050 --> 00:59:16,469
to try and find stuff as well. I'm working, but no,

800
00:59:16,550 --> 00:59:20,709
but like in the evenings or whatever like. You know, that's how I have

801
00:59:21,169 --> 00:59:24,919
found things, you know, so have you discovered an artist on TikTok?

802
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,840
I mean, yeah, I, I've discovered like a a song that became a hit on TikTok.

803
00:59:28,879 --> 00:59:32,989
I've discovered a couple of things that became good on TikTok that we managed to get involved with,

804
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,959
so there's, there have been things, but then it's like I don't want to just

805
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,300
base things on TikTok, I want to base things on

806
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:46,669
how I feel about something, you know, like. I'm from the same era as you where it's like

807
00:59:46,669 --> 00:59:49,909
I wanna hear something and it just moves me. I don't,

808
00:59:49,949 --> 00:59:52,979
and then it's like too many people now.

809
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,379
I just care about TikTok. Oh, what's it doing on TikTok, what's it doing on socials.

810
00:59:57,570 --> 01:00:01,419
I care about what does it do to me as a person? Do I ultimately,

811
01:00:01,709 --> 01:00:06,449
yeah, is this an artist proposition? -- I don't care about one off -- hits I guess you,

812
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,830
yeah, like you're saying it's like a marriage, it's like a long term relationship,

813
01:00:09,949 --> 01:00:15,449
so it's also the the type of person, you know, -- someone -- that you feel I can work with

814
01:00:15,449 --> 01:00:18,620
that I feel that our personalities are aligned or

815
01:00:18,949 --> 01:00:22,500
I can bring out the best in this person, you know, I believe in this person.

816
01:00:23,090 --> 01:00:28,679
With my whole heart, because it's ultimately I have to believe in this so much that I'm the one selling it.

817
01:00:28,770 --> 01:00:34,800
-- You're gonna -- be investing in it, yeah, so if you don't believe in it, people will tell the tone of your voice and if you're not excited.

818
01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:39,129
But yeah, I've got to go in a room and sell this to people. So it's like I have to like deliver.

819
01:00:39,945 --> 01:00:44,024
So a lot of being a manager is being like a salesman. You're pitching all the time.

820
01:00:44,485 --> 01:00:47,524
This guy's the best. But then, but then ultimately sometimes,

821
01:00:47,665 --> 01:00:52,375
you know, we're lucky that we have one or two unbelievably articulate artists we work with.

822
01:00:52,385 --> 01:00:55,465
We work with an artist called Koji Radical and he's like.

823
01:00:56,320 --> 01:01:00,030
Just the most brilliant artist artistic and

824
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:05,000
articulating person you'll ever meet, like when we have meetings about his music.

825
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:09,760
We bring him along and just let him talk because no one can explain

826
01:01:10,030 --> 01:01:14,590
him or his music better than he can. And you know and that passion,

827
01:01:14,750 --> 01:01:17,969
yeah, but because he's so unbelievably, you know,

828
01:01:19,469 --> 01:01:22,659
just yeah, and just the way he can express things, you'll just sit there and be like,

829
01:01:23,030 --> 01:01:28,060
I could never do that enough justice, you know, and, -- and so in those situations he -- said

830
01:01:29,389 --> 01:01:33,280
no, but then the best way, but then it's about. You know, OK, this is his vision,

831
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,629
this is what he's saying, how can we put things around this to make sure

832
01:01:36,629 --> 01:01:43,610
we deliver from our side what he then needs, you know. I guess a lot of the like with music and.

833
01:01:44,530 --> 01:01:49,929
Sort of artistry is just show the art and that will speak for itself to to a

834
01:01:49,929 --> 01:01:53,729
-- lot of -- I mean that's what you want it to be, yeah, ultimately that's what it should be,

835
01:01:53,780 --> 01:01:57,760
you know, it's not about, it's about staying true to what we want this to be,

836
01:01:57,929 --> 01:02:03,219
you know, it's I get to my point where I think I went wrong in the early days of Wiley of like

837
01:02:03,489 --> 01:02:07,250
just chasing. The hit or this or this. I think if you stay true to what

838
01:02:07,580 --> 01:02:12,570
ultimately you feel you are, that's more authentic and will be more long lasting

839
01:02:12,739 --> 01:02:16,620
than if you're constantly trying to chase what you think is a hit,

840
01:02:16,699 --> 01:02:19,830
because people will see through that. It's disingenuous, you know. Yeah,

841
01:02:19,979 --> 01:02:23,790
so, so you just look for people who are genuine and.

842
01:02:24,129 --> 01:02:29,840
You know, it can be any genre as long as it affects you or or you feel like the artist is,

843
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,189
yeah, and anything we feel we can add value to, you know,

844
01:02:33,510 --> 01:02:36,850
it can't just be anything, it's gotta be something where we think, OK, you know what,

845
01:02:37,229 --> 01:02:41,310
we can actually add value to this, or this makes sense within the wheelhouse of what

846
01:02:41,310 --> 01:02:45,030
we're doing or what we're known for doing, you know. -- So what are -- you known for doing?

847
01:02:45,110 --> 01:02:49,639
It's like, I think we're known for sort of looking after producers and songwriters,

848
01:02:49,669 --> 01:02:54,610
and I think we're known in the sort of. hip hop world and the dance world,

849
01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:58,250
you know, I think, you know, it would be as much as we might

850
01:02:58,689 --> 01:03:04,479
love the Arctic Monkeys or the Red Hot chilli Peppers, I don't think we would know what we were doing as much with a band,

851
01:03:04,649 --> 01:03:08,629
you know. -- And it's like -- that's. So you're still going out to Ibiza,

852
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:12,919
all that stuff like that, yeah, yeah, how much are you travelling?

853
01:03:13,129 --> 01:03:17,300
A fair bit, you know, but, but it's like. Travel when it's needed for me to travel,

854
01:03:17,379 --> 01:03:20,780
not just like for fun. Back in the day it might be like, oh it's fun,

855
01:03:20,860 --> 01:03:24,080
let's go do this or this. Now it's like I've got, you know,

856
01:03:24,179 --> 01:03:29,550
a roster of people and it's the best use of my time, -- me being at this thing when it probably -- isn't.

857
01:03:29,739 --> 01:03:33,290
So you were like a manager before, now you're like a manager of managers.

858
01:03:33,419 --> 01:03:37,449
Yeah, now it's my job to manage the artist but also manage the team,

859
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:42,810
you know, so it's like that's why it isn't always the best use of my time for me to be.

860
01:03:43,189 --> 01:03:48,010
Oh let me go here, let me go there cos it's fun with this. I go to the gigs or I go to the shows where,

861
01:03:48,540 --> 01:03:52,169
yeah, I have to be there because it's essential, you know, with our artist Elderbrook,

862
01:03:52,379 --> 01:03:56,070
I'm going to his shows in Los Angeles and Red Rocks,

863
01:03:56,100 --> 01:03:59,340
like in a few weeks because those are massive shows and I've got to be there.

864
01:03:59,820 --> 01:04:03,169
-- But it's like I don't need -- to go. So what are you doing when the artist is doing this thing,

865
01:04:03,340 --> 01:04:08,929
you're just helping to support. No, it's my job to make sure like good people are coming to the shows,

866
01:04:08,939 --> 01:04:12,260
like let me invite partners from Spotify, Apple,

867
01:04:12,379 --> 01:04:15,570
whatever it is, let me get good people down to these shows,

868
01:04:15,699 --> 01:04:19,419
bring other opportunities like. -- It's so -- like

869
01:04:19,949 --> 01:04:24,110
before and after the show, you might set up an interview or some meetings with him,

870
01:04:24,270 --> 01:04:27,989
with some people from that city. -- It's -- about maximising the time in

871
01:04:28,149 --> 01:04:31,830
in those places, yeah, I'm not just there to like, oh let me go and hang out and have a good time.

872
01:04:32,469 --> 01:04:37,750
Like it's about, you know, making sure, OK, these shows that we've conceptualised for this amount of time

873
01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:41,780
suddenly now look the way we want them to look or everything is going,

874
01:04:41,830 --> 01:04:45,610
or the people that we're paying to film these shows or. This or this,

875
01:04:45,969 --> 01:04:50,719
everything feels and looks the way we want it to, you know. So you have teams that will do like

876
01:04:51,610 --> 01:04:55,290
video productions, -- exactly -- that, yeah, we have teams that build out the shows,

877
01:04:55,370 --> 01:04:58,889
do the visuals for the shows, -- do all these things and do you manage -- their social media as

878
01:04:58,889 --> 01:05:02,909
well. We have agencies that come on board and and do that with all our artists,

879
01:05:02,929 --> 01:05:06,739
yeah, we don't. -- get involved in -- that and how do you feel about like this,

880
01:05:06,820 --> 01:05:12,689
you know, when you look at a lot of these documentaries of these music stars behind

881
01:05:12,820 --> 01:05:17,649
the scenes, a lot of them follow the same trajectory of

882
01:05:18,300 --> 01:05:22,129
success, success, getting into drugs and alcohol and then just like,

883
01:05:22,419 --> 01:05:25,489
you know, all those sort of. I think,

884
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:28,800
I think it reaching a very bad place, basically. I like,

885
01:05:28,959 --> 01:05:32,310
I think you know what it is, the music industry is a lonely place and a fickle place,

886
01:05:32,439 --> 01:05:37,350
and I think you've gotta be. You can get caught up in the glitz and the glamour,

887
01:05:37,409 --> 01:05:40,540
right, or you can see it as a business, you know,

888
01:05:40,689 --> 01:05:44,229
it's like. Yeah, of course there comes times where you,

889
01:05:44,310 --> 01:05:47,310
you have fun, you have fun, but then there comes times where you're like,

890
01:05:47,350 --> 01:05:51,649
OK, you know what, if I want to tour at this level or if I want to operate at this level,

891
01:05:52,149 --> 01:05:55,310
this is the way you have to conduct your life. For,

892
01:05:55,459 --> 01:05:58,770
for, -- and -- what is that like less drinking, less drugs,

893
01:05:59,179 --> 01:06:02,459
yeah, because it's like, you know, it's not sustainable sustainable.

894
01:06:02,620 --> 01:06:06,209
A perfect example is Scott Storch, right? He's an amazing producer.

895
01:06:06,620 --> 01:06:11,179
He was probably one of the most successful producers in the world. He's extremely talented,

896
01:06:11,300 --> 01:06:15,409
yeah, but he blew $100 million on drinking and drugs,

897
01:06:15,500 --> 01:06:20,159
you know, but, and it's like, but he's done every hit song you can think of.

898
01:06:20,649 --> 01:06:23,810
But by his own emissions, and he said this on countless things, you know,

899
01:06:23,889 --> 01:06:26,969
I've even spent time with him in Miami and it's like.

900
01:06:27,679 --> 01:06:31,820
That's an example of someone where it's like you get to a level and you start to think

901
01:06:32,149 --> 01:06:35,699
I've got to be in this lifestyle, I've gotta be in this lifestyle and you're chasing,

902
01:06:36,090 --> 01:06:39,370
you know, once you've made a bit of money, you, you hang out with people that

903
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:45,070
have more money than you, so it's like well then you've got to try and keep up with their lifestyle and then it's like

904
01:06:45,350 --> 01:06:48,870
you're constantly chasing as opposed to being happy within and I think.

905
01:06:49,209 --> 01:06:52,209
You know, a perfect example is like some of the biggest touring acts,

906
01:06:52,429 --> 01:06:55,500
biggest DJs in the world don't drink cos it's like,

907
01:06:55,959 --> 01:06:59,429
you know what, if, if they're like doing shows every single day,

908
01:06:59,729 --> 01:07:04,439
-- they're getting drunk or -- every single time they're out in that environment because everyone else is.

909
01:07:04,774 --> 01:07:07,814
Drinking, right, -- or doing whatever they're -- doing,

910
01:07:08,294 --> 01:07:15,054
doing other stuff in that environment, so if they're the sort of party maker effectively as a DJ and they get sucked into that,

911
01:07:15,215 --> 01:07:19,685
it's not sustainable, yeah, -- it's -- not sustainable, right? And if you, you're performing at a certain level.

912
01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:23,219
You, it's, you're not gonna be able to do that for your own health, you know,

913
01:07:23,530 --> 01:07:26,560
so it's like do you encourage that. -- I think it's -- like, yeah,

914
01:07:26,820 --> 01:07:30,409
100% because it's a business. So of say to them, ultimately

915
01:07:30,669 --> 01:07:33,929
not here to be your parent, you've got to make your own life choices,

916
01:07:34,020 --> 01:07:38,209
but ultimately you have to take this seriously and see this as a business.

917
01:07:38,580 --> 01:07:42,610
And this is like there's a shelf life to how sort of,

918
01:07:42,649 --> 01:07:45,659
you know, there isn't this magic thing where, oh yeah,

919
01:07:45,739 --> 01:07:49,260
you know what, this is gonna sustain at this level for the next 10 years and.

920
01:07:49,669 --> 01:07:53,179
Just do what you want. Ultimately, how you are,

921
01:07:53,189 --> 01:07:56,939
or the shows you put on will determine how long your career's gonna be.

922
01:07:56,979 --> 01:08:00,469
If you kind of put on great shows, you look after yourself, you're not messy,

923
01:08:00,510 --> 01:08:05,729
you don't do craziness online, then then then you can keep building and building and building,

924
01:08:05,830 --> 01:08:10,939
but if you're suddenly like getting. You know, messy and drunk and this and that and like falling

925
01:08:10,939 --> 01:08:14,040
-- on stage or offending people -- messing your mix up,

926
01:08:14,399 --> 01:08:17,399
missing your lyrics, people are gonna turn left from you,

927
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,540
aren't they, cos it's gonna be like oh this person's in a car crash, you know,

928
01:08:21,319 --> 01:08:24,770
and it's about, I think. You know, it, it can be,

929
01:08:24,810 --> 01:08:28,040
you know, a manager as well has to see when someone,

930
01:08:28,250 --> 01:08:32,129
when you do need to step in and try and and help as opposed to just say,

931
01:08:32,250 --> 01:08:35,660
well, OK, you know what. They, they're, they're happy,

932
01:08:35,750 --> 01:08:38,970
they're doing what they're doing. -- I'm making my -- money, so interlinked, right,

933
01:08:39,310 --> 01:08:43,229
because they are the business, so you have to protect the business,

934
01:08:43,310 --> 01:08:46,549
you have to like you have to, if, if you think something's derailing,

935
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,839
you have to protect the business and you have to think, OK, you know what,

936
01:08:50,109 --> 01:08:53,520
they need to stop doing shows right now, they need help, they need to get better.

937
01:08:53,830 --> 01:08:58,069
Let's focus on them as the individual because ultimately if they're not right or they can't.

938
01:08:58,540 --> 01:09:01,779
They need to be right to keep this business sustainable. Yeah,

939
01:09:01,859 --> 01:09:05,450
and I think it's a bit of a myth that like you need to be,

940
01:09:05,750 --> 01:09:09,020
you know, some people think it can enhance their creativity,

941
01:09:09,100 --> 01:09:13,770
yeah, and maybe it can, but -- I think people can tap into all that naturally as -- well.

942
01:09:13,850 --> 01:09:17,459
100% and maybe it can as well, you know, in the studio and stuff like that,

943
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,919
but I think if you're trying to tour to a big level,

944
01:09:21,220 --> 01:09:24,240
like if you're doing a tour like. You know,

945
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:28,520
like a Tiesta or a Ghetto or Calvin Harris or like an Ed Sheeran tour or

946
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,720
a Coldplay tour where it's like you're on tour for like a year and a half,

947
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:37,229
shows every constant, constant, -- constant -- every day, every other day flying to new locations,

948
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,919
even all the travelling like takes its toll. -- You -- would, you know,

949
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:45,790
you, you would, you know, you'd probably die if, if you were kind of and they do,

950
01:09:47,270 --> 01:09:50,330
right, yeah, some of them do die, but that's a sad sad thing about it,

951
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:54,220
it's like these idols that get pushed and they just, you know. End up

952
01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:58,149
facing oblivion eventually just from their own behaviours and stuff,

953
01:09:58,229 --> 01:10:03,750
yeah, but I think that's where. A manager has to be more aware of like

954
01:10:03,959 --> 01:10:08,959
what's going on, you know, -- and kind of like -- encourage it as well or or not sure there's even

955
01:10:08,959 --> 01:10:12,589
-- some managers that are like themselves have their issues -- or not ignore it,

956
01:10:12,720 --> 01:10:16,875
you know, because it's like oh we we're doing so well, dah dah dah dah. We turn a blind eye,

957
01:10:16,915 --> 01:10:20,234
I think you're culpable if you're doing that because ultimately,

958
01:10:20,334 --> 01:10:24,265
yeah, times are great, we're all making money, blah blah blah. But then ultimately

959
01:10:24,595 --> 01:10:27,714
you need to also be a good person, you know,

960
01:10:28,035 --> 01:10:31,705
and kind of like be like, OK, well you know what, like, times might be great,

961
01:10:31,754 --> 01:10:35,020
but this person is clearly suffering. Yeah and needs help,

962
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:41,899
you know, it's true. And it seems to me anyway that the next generation is more conscious of all that,

963
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:45,959
like you see drinking numbers are going down.

964
01:10:46,470 --> 01:10:50,299
I mean, I don't see it as totally inconceivable

965
01:10:50,470 --> 01:10:55,339
that. Drinking could go the way of smoking in terms of like

966
01:10:55,950 --> 01:11:01,149
everyone suddenly realises this is bad for us and it kind of gradually peters out,

967
01:11:01,459 --> 01:11:04,459
essentially I don't know everything, things in moderation are fine,

968
01:11:04,549 --> 01:11:07,700
you know, I think like it's just about being

969
01:11:08,589 --> 01:11:12,790
you know aware and like. It will work within your limits as it were.

970
01:11:12,990 --> 01:11:20,859
Yeah, I guess it's just because there's such a culture of alcohol being overlaid onto any social situation.

971
01:11:21,069 --> 01:11:24,899
Oh yeah, but you know when you're an artist. Sorry,

972
01:11:24,979 --> 01:11:28,279
excuse me. You, you have something called a rider, so when you do a performance,

973
01:11:28,779 --> 01:11:32,859
you can ask for anything you want on your rider. Well, and that's like in your room,

974
01:11:33,859 --> 01:11:37,049
so that in your green room or on stage when you're performing,

975
01:11:37,339 --> 01:11:40,950
you could turn around and say I want 10 bottles of tequila, 3 bottles of champagne,

976
01:11:41,299 --> 01:11:44,540
and that whatever venue you're performing at has to perform it.

977
01:11:44,660 --> 01:11:48,180
Give it to you because that's in your contract. So it's like every night.

978
01:11:49,120 --> 01:11:52,910
You can have unlimited free alcohol, whatever type of alcohol you want.

979
01:11:53,299 --> 01:11:56,330
The bigger the artist you are, that you can ask for anything,

980
01:11:56,500 --> 01:12:03,240
you know, it's like. And most times people are doing that to give it to their friends or people that have,

981
01:12:03,430 --> 01:12:06,910
you know, come to, but it's like, yeah, but at the same time it's like .

982
01:12:08,279 --> 01:12:11,529
That's a slippery slope if, if, if like if every night you're,

983
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,939
you're kind of drinking like that, it's not,

984
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:20,330
that's not a vibe, -- you -- know. I'd be asking for like a massage and an ice bath or something.

985
01:12:22,870 --> 01:12:25,899
Are you OK? Yeah, my headphones were just hurting me a bit, sorry. OK.

986
01:12:26,799 --> 01:12:29,899
You OK? You wanna break a bit, or are you alright for a bit? Maybe another like 5,

987
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:33,209
10 minutes, yeah. OK. Need to feed her soon. -- Oh -- right,

988
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:36,569
yeah, it's like hungry? Yeah, yeah.

989
01:12:37,259 --> 01:12:40,709
So was there a single moment when you thought

990
01:12:41,020 --> 01:12:45,379
I've made it, -- and is there such thing -- as I don't think, I don't think there was that moment.

991
01:12:45,459 --> 01:12:49,939
There have been moments where I felt like this is great, but there haven't been but.

992
01:12:50,609 --> 01:12:56,020
I think the the point is that we're we're going to the the the the point is I think

993
01:12:56,430 --> 01:13:00,459
you constantly. If you kind of

994
01:13:00,770 --> 01:13:04,680
think, oh great, I've made it, then I think that's the minute you fall.

995
01:13:05,209 --> 01:13:09,450
I think you need to be constantly striving and I'm never satisfied,

996
01:13:09,649 --> 01:13:14,020
you know, like I, I, I remember, and this is perhaps, you know, something that I've looked at within myself.

997
01:13:14,089 --> 01:13:17,720
I remember we had a very big hit with an act

998
01:13:17,970 --> 01:13:21,990
some years ago and. We were in a house in Ibiza and the song

999
01:13:21,990 --> 01:13:26,529
had just sold a million copies around the world, and everyone was celebrating and jumping in the pool and they were like,

1000
01:13:26,589 --> 01:13:30,939
why aren't you happy, why aren't you celebrating? I was like, cause I'll celebrate when it sells 5 million,

1001
01:13:31,950 --> 01:13:35,459
you know, because for me, no, but for me it wasn't enough. Like I didn't,

1002
01:13:35,549 --> 01:13:39,910
I didn't think that was worth celebrating, but now I'm like that's incredible and I should have been,

1003
01:13:40,069 --> 01:13:44,189
I should have been happy but I felt that. I needed more,

1004
01:13:44,560 --> 01:13:48,060
you know, -- and which -- is a. A never ending story,

1005
01:13:48,149 --> 01:13:52,060
right? -- But that's -- what it means at some point you have to be content,

1006
01:13:52,189 --> 01:13:55,350
you know, and I, and I think, you know, I, I,

1007
01:13:55,430 --> 01:13:58,919
I never feel, I never have felt like I've made it, you know, I feel like

1008
01:13:59,509 --> 01:14:04,620
I'm constantly the underdog is how I feel, like constantly trying to prove myself,

1009
01:14:04,950 --> 01:14:09,939
and then every now and then people are like, oh yeah, you know what, I'm I I describe myself as like a.

1010
01:14:10,740 --> 01:14:14,370
Like a scrappy boxer who somehow just keeps

1011
01:14:14,859 --> 01:14:18,209
keeps coming back, keeps coming back, yeah, like,

1012
01:14:18,299 --> 01:14:22,930
you know, I keep kind of getting these title shots or keep I'm just not going away,

1013
01:14:23,959 --> 01:14:28,060
-- which is a huge -- thing to be persistent and to have that determination,

1014
01:14:28,259 --> 01:14:32,850
you know. And I think that's what one of my attributes has been in, in that like I've always.

1015
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:38,390
I've always been persistent, I've always felt that like. Nothing is like,

1016
01:14:38,430 --> 01:14:41,919
and and I've I've also kind of like shamelessly at times.

1017
01:14:42,120 --> 01:14:46,470
Yeah, but, but, but I'm OK with that because I'd rather like, I'd rather go

1018
01:14:46,759 --> 01:14:51,830
and shoot for the stars and get like kicked down than like think oh what if,

1019
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,109
you know, because it's like you never know, like, you know, I,

1020
01:14:55,200 --> 01:15:01,200
I mentioned earlier there was a songwriter we have, you know, similar like I'd rather aim for the highest possible session.

1021
01:15:01,569 --> 01:15:06,770
And be told no, then be like oh I'll just accept like -- some mid-level things -- expression in like Brazil,

1022
01:15:06,859 --> 01:15:10,259
like I know you already have, but 100%.

1023
01:15:10,310 --> 01:15:14,060
-- You've already -- got no but but yeah, that's the perfect analogy, yeah.

1024
01:15:14,379 --> 01:15:17,790
Do you know what I mean? And anything else from that is great. So,

1025
01:15:17,899 --> 01:15:21,620
so where do you see a list in the next 5,

1026
01:15:21,629 --> 01:15:27,359
10 years heading towards? -- I -- think, you know, building rights in terms of record label,

1027
01:15:27,859 --> 01:15:30,970
trying to build out, you know, more, more artists,

1028
01:15:31,020 --> 01:15:34,660
hopefully opening a business in Los Angeles and .

1029
01:15:35,240 --> 01:15:39,060
And yeah, you know, hopefully becoming. How come, how come Los Angeles.

1030
01:15:39,180 --> 01:15:42,450
-- Cos -- that's kind of the hub of where things are, you know,

1031
01:15:42,779 --> 01:15:46,470
but yeah, everything is there, yeah. So you're saying so so Los Angeles is,

1032
01:15:46,549 --> 01:15:51,029
is kind of the epicentre of of my business and creativity and stuff like that,

1033
01:15:51,069 --> 01:15:55,700
and I think, yeah, wanting to be able to have a hub where we can kind of

1034
01:15:56,229 --> 01:16:00,229
offer people some kind of global service of being able to say.

1035
01:16:00,859 --> 01:16:04,799
You know, we, we operate in multiple markets is what interests me.

1036
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:09,899
I'm super interested in emerging markets like us being more involved in India,

1037
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:14,040
us being more involved in because Latin music has had such a thing,

1038
01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:18,149
K-pop music has had such a thing, but I think India is gonna be the biggest

1039
01:16:18,350 --> 01:16:21,819
market in the world in terms of. You know, so many,

1040
01:16:21,950 --> 01:16:26,220
there's a billion people or something in India and so many of those people are gonna start.

1041
01:16:27,220 --> 01:16:33,250
Buying streaming, I think they've got a growing middle class and

1042
01:16:33,379 --> 01:16:38,009
I think they have some of the most new millionaires per year in India,

1043
01:16:38,259 --> 01:16:44,899
you know, -- all the -- opportunities are gonna be there you know, -- or a lot of -- opportunities and they're mainly English speaking as well so yeah

1044
01:16:44,899 --> 01:16:48,160
I think that I think there's a lot of wins to be had there, you know, right, so,

1045
01:16:48,370 --> 01:16:54,459
-- so do you see yourself opening up -- I think it's just, I think it's just like a lot of people focus on.

1046
01:16:55,109 --> 01:17:00,410
What's going on in the UK? I, I always focus on what's going on globally as opposed to like,

1047
01:17:00,419 --> 01:17:04,459
oh what can our people be doing? There's so many other countries in the world,

1048
01:17:04,779 --> 01:17:08,299
you know, and it's not about what what are our producers doing in the UK today.

1049
01:17:08,379 --> 01:17:14,330
It's about what are they doing in Los Angeles, -- what are they doing in -- there's always a thing of breaking America,

1050
01:17:14,620 --> 01:17:17,759
right, which not which a lot of UK artists

1051
01:17:18,020 --> 01:17:22,850
do find difficult for sure, right, so having a office there makes sense.

1052
01:17:22,879 --> 01:17:29,950
100%, I think that's the the goal. Yeah, OK, -- well I wish you all the all the luck going forward -- and thank you so much for having us.

1053
01:17:30,450 --> 01:17:34,620
Sorry for disruption. Yeah, well, I think Layla was a star of this show.

1054
01:17:36,470 --> 01:17:40,180
It's your first podcast. How do you feel? I feel great.

1055
01:17:42,660 --> 01:17:48,049
OK, thanks John. No worries, thanks for having me. Yes.