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I would say the major difference is that Germans stop trading in the weekends.
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The Koreans don't.
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I think it's already a question of time rather than a question per se, when the trading would become universally 24-7.
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In the recent two years, the German community has really picked up as compared to, let's say, neighboring benchmarks, which are usually the UK and France.
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And we've been analyzing that internally and thinking about what have been the catalysts around that.
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Hey, everyone.
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Before we are starting with the episode, I need to ask you for a small favor.
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Every week we are doing a lot of research to get you the best insights.
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Hit the follow button.
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Share the podcast with your friends.
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Thank you very much.
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And now let's start with the episode.
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Hello.
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Hey Ron, pleasure to have you today at Deep Tech Insight.
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So you helped to scale trading view from a small startup to a multi-billion dollar company.
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How does that work?
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Pleasure to be here and thanks for quite a straightforward question from the start.
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I think I've been lucky to identify TradingView as the end user 11 years back in the second or third year of platform existence as an end user.
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So for the first year I've been using the platform.
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as a trader myself and at some point I've just recognized well I've I'm spending so much time on the platform so why would I not engage it from the other point of view and I get to the get to the team so the
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introduction to the platform has come sort of organically through the usage of the platform itself.
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And I'm still doing it and personally loving it besides being a part of the team for quite some time.
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So you are now responsible for all the growth efforts of TradingView.
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Maybe you can get us a few numbers, like how many users do you have right now?
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Do you have a concentration in America or in the EU, or is it really worldwide?
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Yeah, I know that growth can be misleading sometimes because it's a broad definition and some people are referring to it as a performance marketing, some people are looking at it from the business perspective.
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We are following the latter approach.
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So my professional focus is primarily in establishing partnerships on B2B business level.
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But obviously a lot of our partnerships are non-commercial in nature.
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So they are defining the funnel and the introduction of the audience into the actual platform.
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So it's a mix which is usually referred to as B2B2C.
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Regarding the second part of your question on the geography, I know I would not be original here, suggesting that we are spread out quite evenly.
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So it's 40% APAC if we count in South Asia.
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I'm referring to India and Pakistan.
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and then 30% US and America and Europe.
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In terms of the recent trends, I think the India story has already become a headline for the
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for the general media outlets.
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You wouldn't surprise anyone with a lot of growth and a lot of potential coming from India.
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So out of the recent markets I would definitely recognize Thailand.
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It's recently come as one of our top 10 markets and maybe it would be less intuitive if you think about that from the broad level geography perspective.
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So for everyone who haven't heard about TradingView yet, what is TradingView and what can I do on your platform?
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I hope that most of the listeners had listened to it, had heard of it to some extent, or at least seen it in the front seat of the taxi driver or the passenger in the flight ahead of them.
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But in the elevator part,
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beach fashion, we are an all-in-one retail financial platform.
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So our focus is to be agnostic across the geographies, as I mentioned.
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And by the way, given the context of you recording this podcast from Germany,
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I definitely need to recognize how active the German community is.
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Perhaps we'll expand on it even separately in further detail because it's actually one of the interesting topics.
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So we are agnostic on the geographies, agnostic on the markets.
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So you would find both traditional stocks and futures exchanges, some of them being more than 100 years old, as well as the newest crypto markets, such as Hyperliquid, who perhaps had not existed two or three years back.
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And then the third element is the focus on retail, because the context here is once the TradingView had started a dozen years back, there's definitely been a number of trading platforms or workstations, which had unfortunately been available only to a selected few.
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So you could potentially have an access but you would have a significant, let's say, pricing or entity barrier to get an access to it.
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So unlocking the access to the features, some of them being considered semi-professional,
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I think that's one of the major aims and targets that we are deliberately trying to achieve from the product perspective.
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So what would you say are the main features?
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Why does TradingView make you a better trader or help you to make better trading decisions?
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Initially it has started from the technical analysis and still a lot of users and partners are referring to trading the charting element as the core functionality.
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So it's an opportunity to look at the markets from the technical perspective and make it in quite easy way if you want to do that.
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You can trade from charts, you can set up an alert with one click.
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But also, if you want to deep dive into it, it can get really complex, as complex as to create an indicator of your own.
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So, I guess that would be the correct description.
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You said the German community is very active there, and you wanted to talk about that?
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Yeah, that's one thing that I've just briefly mentioned and I think it's worth a separate notion.
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In the recent two years, German community has really picked up as compared to, let's say, neighboring benchmarks which are usually
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the UK and France.
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And we've been analyzing that internally and thinking about what have been the catalysts around that.
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Would it be something that we've done on our side or like is this the support of their actionary partners or anything else.
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And eventually we've
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identified that Germany is one of the few markets which opens up opportunities for retail on a number of markets.
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So you've got full and unrestricted access to the major world markets, let's say US, Euronext,
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Then you've got a full-fledged Zitra market, which is an animal of its own.
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And then you've got a very specific and very local story of the certificates trading, which is quite popular in Germany, but is quite foreign as a concept for the other communities.
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Then you've got the crypto access which is again unrestricted for the global players but then there is a number of really heavyweights that are coming from Germany or from the broader DAC region.
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And I think that this example of opportunity to open up various market avenues eventually creates a much larger addressable market.
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which would be an interesting story to compare, though many other regional markets which choose a different way and decide to be protective about their local market and say, you've got, let's say, the discounted option or commission-free access if you are trading local markets.
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But then if you are willing to enter crypto or if you are willing to trade international markets,
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there it would not be necessarily prohibited but there would be a number of barriers which makes it quite complicated and challenging to enter that's why people are not entering.
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How do you see the behavior of traders or investors change over time?
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I mean, you have been trading you trading you for over 10 years, right?
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So do you think people are now more interested in finance or want to be more on board and managing their financials?
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Or what do you think changed over time?
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I think we are really looking at different cohorts of audiences developing in parallel.
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So let's say if you are into crypto,
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you would have your Twitter feed, your Reddit feed, your trading charts, your watch list completely built out around the crypto realm.
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And the past few months would be quite the passing to you, except for the last few days when we are seeing a sparking 20-70% growth on some tokens.
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And if you are looking at this crypto perspective, you may oversee a totally different cohort of traders who would be looking at the certificates that I mentioned or at the international stock markets.
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Or there would be even a third cohort of even more conservative investors.
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let's say portfolio investors rather than traders who are considering all previously mentioned markets as too volatile and rather seek opportunities around fixed income or bond opportunities.
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And we
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As we are supporting all of these asset classes, we would not say there is a definite preference or definite advantage of one of these cohorts.
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We are seeing them developing and growing in parallel, but the timings are
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are just independent on the market setup.
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So let's say the crypto growth has really been the case between 2017-18 and then 2021-22.
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And it's been one of the pillars of the growth to start supporting the crypto market as early as 2013.
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Gold has been the same for the past two years and there's been a number of traders who have absorbed that growth for better or worse.
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I guess that one of the last developed stories in the recent years has been fixed income, but we are looking again.
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That can be my...
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personal guess at the above average rates of the fixed products.
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So we are dedicating a sizeable effort of our development into making these markets actionable on our platform and I think this is important
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to highlight and understand.
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We are not only looking at the frontier markets which are getting headlines or hype.
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We as much understand the opportunity and the confirmed audience and confirmed volume which is coming from, let's say, the traditional or conservative
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investment market strategies and opportunities.
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So how would it look like on your platform?
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Because you said you are looking deeply into these markets.
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We've recently introduced on the platform the Yield Curve, which is definitely an actionable tool for those looking at the fixed products.
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The other element of the platform that I would highlight would be screener and screening opportunities.
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I would say that at the moment our screeners are getting close to the usage activities to the OG original charting implementation and it's also getting as technical as agile
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with a set of custom filters, custom reminders to build the portfolio.
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And obviously moving the functionality from the basic watch list into the portfolio territory.
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So do you also work here with AI tools to actively manage a portfolio or to help a trader to make a better decision?
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Indeed, we've introduced AI co-pilot of our own in earlier this year, in April this year.
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It's been in closed beta available to everyone regardless of the plan or subscription access.
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because we definitely understand the opportunity around the automation, but there is also a significant chunk of responsibility that we are taking with introducing such an innovative tool.
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As you can imagine, this BitaXS has been oversubscribed and remains oversubscribed until this time.
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But the overall feedback as it comes from the community lens is generally positive.
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So I guess we would be moving the product out of BitaXS as soon as next quarter.
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So you also have an actively community management on TradingView, right?
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Like how many of your users are also active in the community?
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Do you have some numbers?
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The community element has been one of the seven stones of the platform.
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And it's a.
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It's really helped development in various regions, including Germany.
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I would say the German community is one of those which praises a lot market mentors, market analysts, commentaries.
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I guess that on a high level we are thinking about
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5% of total active users engaging in the social.
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I would say that's a specific behavior pattern.
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I.e., we've got a number of users who are just looking at the platform on its own without actively contributing or participating in the community.
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there are users who are not participating in the community but are actively looking at the news feed.
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We are supporting the news flow with multiple partners including regional ones,
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And then on the social side we've got the ideas and the chats, which is the content.
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And then the PineScript and so indicators and strategies which are also social in a way because a lot of them are published including the source code.
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And that's done on purpose by their creators and developers so that
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other participants of the community can look at the logic behind the custom indicator and suggest any improvements to it.
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Pine is kind of your own programming language for the indicators, right?
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Yeah, it's a custom language which is based on the ESA language.
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And why did you choose to make a custom language?
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to make it accessible for, let's say, not entry-level users, but for the quite specific use case of technical analysis, right?
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like easy language is a broad programming language.
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So what we've done is we've created a subset of, let's say, 100, 120 standard operators which are
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specifically focused around technical analysis capability.
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So think of that as a shortcut.
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Do you see an increase of new indicators because everyone is talking about VIBE coding and so many people are getting into coding right now?
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Do you see this on your platform as well?
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We are definitely observing that and there is competing opinions about that.
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We are rather supportive of the AI supported tool generation.
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We are as well looking into how the previously mentioned copilot can potentially get extended into the Bindscript section from the platform perspective.
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Now it's obviously coming from the external participation, let's say from the external usage and then gets converted on the platform.
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We've recently started a section which is called Spaces, which allows indicator providers to publish the code and then choose one of the approaches, how to basically launch it on the platform.
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So as I mentioned, it can be completely public.
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for the benefit of other users contributing and improving the initial script, initial strategy.
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It can be as well invite only or
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behind paywall and we are applying the 100% creator approach, i.e.
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anything that is earned by creators is going toward them.
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So I think we need to elaborate a little bit on indicators because probably most of the people out there see TradingView or any kind of charting tool.
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They see the candlestick, they maybe draw some lines into it.
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How do indicators change that game or help you to make better decisions?
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So while drawing tools allow to observe the current price action, I'm personally tilted towards that market view.
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Indicators allow to look at the prior performance and trend from the various angles, volatility, price action, trend following.
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A significant part of the efficiency of an indicator approach is based around backtesting, which is one of the fundamental features of the indicator usage.
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But basically, if you speak about it from the high level, indicators provide you much more angles to look at the market or at the instrument.
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And they serve as a confirmation to, let's say, as a confirmation or validation to the
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price action expectation that you are building as a trader.
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Do you have a favorite set of indicators?
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I would say no.
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I'm personally a price action guy.
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Okay.
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So do you think there are some indicators at least so when people starting to go, I mean, you need to have a little bit of knowledge of trading when you go into indicators.
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Are there some indicators where people should start with or should have a look at to have a deeper understanding about chart technicals?
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So there is a set of, let's say, few dozen to, I would say a few dozen is sufficient,
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of legacy instruments that had been created and established, let's say, in the published book era of technical analysis.
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You think of Bollinger Bands, you think about Denmark.
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you're thinking about MACD and RSI and Alligator oscillator and these are quite conventional tools I would say it's fair to say that they are not on the edge of being most efficient just because
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They've been used by so many people, so they do not provide you a competitive edge or advantage in front of the major use case.
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But starting with understanding how legacy or traditional indicators work,
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is a good step.
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In terms of the custom scripts, that's a dynamic landscape.
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I would say it's always interesting to look at the trending section, trending category.
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of the indicators, those that are being picked up and getting actively discussed.
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One of the examples of that has been a three light indicator, which has been published by one of the Korea traders.
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And as you know, Korea community is one of
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those few who can compete with Germans by trading activity.
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And they've actually made a very interesting call again
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making the indicator and source code becoming entirely public and inviting other users to collaborate into seeing how the further versions of the indicator will improve.
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And I think there's been over
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30 versions of the indicator being created on top of that in the span of just two weeks.
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Interesting.
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You also mentioned backtesting.
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So let's say I'm a trader, I'm on your platform, I understand how candlesticks work, I can draw lines, I know how I can add indicators and how indicators work.
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Now I have developed a strategy for myself.
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How can I, how does this backtesting work to see if my strategy is really working?
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So the opportunity with backtesting is that you can stress test your idea, let's say with a set of indicators, on different markets, i.e.
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you can try FX, you can try Tesla, on different time frames, i.e.
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what if I trade intraday?
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What if I make it a carry trade over a few weeks or even a few months?
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If you do that in real life, that would take you years, right?
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But if you're backtesting that, you can basically run through the idea and see how, let's say, that would work in the previous 12 months or in the previous 5 years or in the previous week.
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on the different instruments because there is also an acknowledgement that obviously different asset classes provide different levels of volatility and there would be no universal set of indicators that would work for all of the markets equally efficient.
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Do you see traders from different regions behave differently?
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Like is there, for example, a difference between a German trader and a trader in South Korea?
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I would say the major difference is that Germans stop trading in the weekends.
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Yeah.
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Okay, Koreans don't.
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It's actually an interesting development because this behavior pattern has obviously started with crypto and has been particularly popular in Japan and Korea, where it's basically become an introvert weekend hobby.
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But now we are looking at
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futures exchanges getting us used to the idea of 24 to 6 trading.
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So I think it's already a question of time rather than a question per se when the trading would become universally
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24-7 because again the hyperliquid case and prediction market segment are actively closing the gap of this weekend price discovery.
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I'm sure you've been following the oil story so that's basically been a source of information during Sundays how the markets would open on Monday without the markets being actually open.
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And since this
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products already exist, I think it would rather get completed by the source providers in some new term future.
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How do you see, because there are also now coming more and more tokenized stocks, how do you see this changing the game?
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Because now certain stocks are also available for trading 24-7.
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Yeah, that's technically true.
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And I've been looking at the Talking Nice Talks myself over the weekends.
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I would say that this is similar to the story of...
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pre-IPO stocks.
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This is basically made on a quite broad and quite rough price assumptions yet.
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So,
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I would say that tokenized stocks are pretty much what CFDs or spread bets are as a product, but they do not provide as much of insight in the price discovery when the actual underlying markets are closed.
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Do you think there's kind of a fear in the traditional stock markets because with tokenized stocks now they are trading 24 seven and they do not participate in the trading?
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Because I think, was it the NASDAQ last week or two weeks ago, which also mentioned that they want to extend their trading hours?
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Do you think that these traditional markets will catch up and also open up for longer timeframes?
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I definitely not describe that as a fear because tokenized stocks would not exist without the underlying publisher or emittent of the stock.
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And I would say that like this additional market asset classes are just creating, let's say, a new cohort of users, perhaps they are
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capturing the younger audience, perhaps they are capturing the audience from developing markets where access to the actual exchanges is again restricted, i.e.
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in order to open a brokerage account you need to come into the branch and put a physical signature.
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So why would you do that if you can just trade a tokenized version of it?
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But there should be no fear from them because if you are looking at their published statements, the traditional exchanges are actually...
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feeling quite well and growing in revenue despite the existence and addition of all of the Frontier market players.
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It seems that these new market players are rather supporting the original market participants and just strengthening their position.
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How do you see tokenized assets in general as a new asset class?
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I think personally we still have kind of a liquidity problem there still, but also like the big consultancy companies or finance companies are predicting like crazy numbers.
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I also heard something like, yeah, we tokenize everything.
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I mean it makes a lot of sense for things like maybe stocks, commodities, but also real estate because it opens up asset classes where retail could not invest into yet.
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So how do you see the whole field of tokenized assets?
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I'd say that we've been hearing about real-world tokenization two to three years back much more than we are listening to it now.
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Like obviously there are real estate tokens.
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There are even wine tokens.
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But I think you've correctly identified that if a token provider is trying to create a product of its own rather than to build it on top of the publicly traded product,
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it eventually comes up to the liquidity and also price discovery.
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You do not expect that much price point updates when you are thinking about a box of wine.
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That's true.
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And also about the real estate.
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I mean, the price point needs to come somewhere, right?
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It's the Oracle problem.
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The second big problem we have with RWAs.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So, um.
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I think that's an identified bottleneck and that's why these projects are perhaps not picking up.
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They are not providing as much of actual trading opportunity as compared to publicly traded products.
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Do you think this will change over time because the predictions are pretty good on tokenized assets?
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I think we've been smart to identify the problem, getting the dynamic and trusted source of information and translating that into the liquid price action.
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Once that would be achieved, that would become a much viable trading product.
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Are you supporting tokenized assets already?
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Or how do you decide what kind of charts and prices are accessible on TradingView?
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um so we've got north of 200 providers overall which can be a separate providers which can be a trading execution partners um i would say that our eventual source of truth
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of what we are connecting next and in which order, in which priority is the user requests.
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And that's actually shaping the pipeline much more than...
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the actual business discussion, i.e.
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if there would be a larger number of requests from the partner you are not actively engaged with, and like there would be an engaged partner which has not got the confirmed user interest, the former one would get a priority.
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You mentioned prediction markets before.
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I also think like that prediction markets will be one of the huge drivers for the next cycle.
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But how do you read a chart for prediction markets compared to like a normal crypto assets?
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Like that's totally different, right?
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Yeah, but we can already look at the implementation of both Kalshi and Polar Market utilizing our charting.
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And obviously, we are working on getting the prediction markets available on the platform itself.
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But there is...
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two cohorts of prediction events.
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One is binary, which is quite easy to be reflected via charting.
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This is basically a yes or no probability, and then you can make it a line or area chart where you just put the probability on the percentage scale.
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So let's say probability of 43% going up to 57% and so on.
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The more complex solution is the multiple choice probabilities, i.e.
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if the next prime minister appears before the end of summer in November or in March next year.
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But again, there is a direct relation to another asset class which had been existing for quite some time and that's options.
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So we've already introduced options a couple of years back.
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and it's been an extremely popular feature, I would say.
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I think late last year we've introduced the complex option functionality, which is basically the interpretation of a multiple prediction event, right?
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Like you would just apply the complex option builder onto the prediction event, and that's how you display it.
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What kind of new asset classes or trends are you seeing popping up?
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You know, since we've just went into discussing prediction markets, it would be an easy take to suggest prediction markets as a recent trend.
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But we've been actually looking at the
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Let's see, if you look beyond the headlines of getting the updated evaluations and record-breaking number of contracts exchanged and again the traditional players getting into the
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segment, if you look cold-headed into the actual total number of unique user participants, that would be less than 10 million users overall, which is
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quite a humble number as compared to the overall active trading addressable audience, which is considered around 500 million worldwide, let's say across all of the opportunities.
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How do you see...
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Especially the future in regards to AI trading because like more and more AI agents popping up.
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Do you see a future where AI will do most of the trading also for retail?
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And how does this change your business model overall?
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I wouldn't say that that is something structurally different from the algo training, automated training that had been existing for few dozen years really.
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We are just changing expert advisors.
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into the AI model, right?
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And if you think about it, the algorithmic trading has been available
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continuously.
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And there's always been a fraction of users who choose to be participating in it.
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So I think that AI is on high level the significant improvement towards that layer of algorithmic or automated trading.
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But before that AI is applied a lot of traders would say okay, I'm not comfortable with
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making the machine-based decisions.
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I would rather prefer to keep making decisions myself.
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And that is a personal human choice.
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So maybe for everyone who is interested into trading, what do you think, where should they start and what should they do to become a better trader than today?
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Start with trading you.
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I mean, there's a vast number of opportunities.
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So eventually, I guess you need to understand if you are looking at active trading site or you are rather looking at,
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building a managed portfolio that you would be revaluating a number of times in a year rather than number of times in a week rather than in a day as compared to former example.
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I've mentioned previously screener, I think the screening opportunity considering the number of trading possibilities at the moment, it cannot be overestimated, right?
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If we are talking about the markets, realistically, we are talking about the US markets, perhaps the crypto market, gold market, even oil market had not picked up, let's say, a tenth of the usage activity as compared to other commodity markets, despite how active and aggressive the story has developed.
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Obviously, you've got the Forex market.
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I think we've started with... We are now talking about them much less as compared to where I started working.
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But beyond these globally recognized opportunities, there is a lot of local potential.
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You know that from XITRA and Certificate example.
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there's recently been a turmoil in the Korean market which had also broken through the global headlines, right?
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But let's say you're really thinking about the Brazilian stock market, but it's actually a quite volatile and active market of its own.
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I hope that we've done the...
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We've done the homework of delivering a set of international markets being available for analysis and further trading.
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So I hope that anyone's choice would not be limited only to those items which appear on the headlines.
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So maybe one last question, because this is something I'm asking every guest.
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So what's your wildest prediction for the next 20 years?
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And I know it's a lot 20, I know it's a long timeframe and I get so many different answers from that, but in like in the niche, in the, in the industry you are working on, what do you think is the widest prediction for the next 20 years?
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This question gets me off guard.
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I should have listened to other podcasts until the very end.
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I know that would be a biased, wildest suggestion, but I would not see a savings account in 20 years.
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and would rather see a managed account to any extent, like being possible in various markets and various level of risk, but it can be automated or manual, but in any case it would be structured as to tie to a specific asset.
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Perfect.
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Juan Cassan from TradingView, thank you very much for your time.
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Thank you, likewise.
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I would say the major difference is that Germans stop trading in the weekends.
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The Koreans don't.
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I think it's already a question of time rather than a question per se, when the trading would become universally 24-7.
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In the recent two years, the German community has really picked up as compared to, let's say, neighboring benchmarks, which are usually the UK and France.
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And we've been analyzing that internally and thinking about what have been the catalysts around that.
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Hey, everyone.
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Before we are starting with the episode, I need to ask you for a small favor.
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Every week we are doing a lot of research to get you the best insights.
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Please support us.
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Hit the follow button.
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Share the podcast with your friends.
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Thank you very much.
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And now let's start with the episode.
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Hello.
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Hey Ron, pleasure to have you today at Deep Tech Insight.
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So you helped to scale trading view from a small startup to a multi-billion dollar company.
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How does that work?
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Pleasure to be here and thanks for quite a straightforward question from the start.
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I think I've been lucky to identify TradingView as the end user 11 years back in the second or third year of platform existence as an end user.
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So for the first year I've been using the platform.
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as a trader myself and at some point I've just recognized well I've I'm spending so much time on the platform so why would I not engage it from the other point of view and I get to the get to the team so the
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introduction to the platform has come sort of organically through the usage of the platform itself.
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And I'm still doing it and personally loving it besides being a part of the team for quite some time.
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So you are now responsible for all the growth efforts of TradingView.
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Maybe you can get us a few numbers, like how many users do you have right now?
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Do you have a concentration in America or in the EU, or is it really worldwide?
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Yeah, I know that growth can be misleading sometimes because it's a broad definition and some people are referring to it as a performance marketing, some people are looking at it from the business perspective.
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We are following the latter approach.
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So my professional focus is primarily in establishing partnerships on B2B business level.
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But obviously a lot of our partnerships are non-commercial in nature.
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So they are defining the funnel and the introduction of the audience into the actual platform.
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So it's a mix which is usually referred to as B2B2C.
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Regarding the second part of your question on the geography, I know I would not be original here, suggesting that we are spread out quite evenly.
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So it's 40% APAC if we count in South Asia.
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I'm referring to India and Pakistan.
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and then 30% US and America and Europe.
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In terms of the recent trends, I think the India story has already become a headline for the
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for the general media outlets.
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You wouldn't surprise anyone with a lot of growth and a lot of potential coming from India.
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So out of the recent markets I would definitely recognize Thailand.
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It's recently come as one of our top 10 markets and maybe it would be less intuitive if you think about that from the broad level geography perspective.
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So for everyone who haven't heard about TradingView yet, what is TradingView and what can I do on your platform?
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I hope that most of the listeners had listened to it, had heard of it to some extent, or at least seen it in the front seat of the taxi driver or the passenger in the flight ahead of them.
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But in the elevator part,
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beach fashion, we are an all-in-one retail financial platform.
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So our focus is to be agnostic across the geographies, as I mentioned.
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And by the way, given the context of you recording this podcast from Germany,
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I definitely need to recognize how active the German community is.
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Perhaps we'll expand on it even separately in further detail because it's actually one of the interesting topics.
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So we are agnostic on the geographies, agnostic on the markets.
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So you would find both traditional stocks and futures exchanges, some of them being more than 100 years old, as well as the newest crypto markets, such as Hyperliquid, who perhaps had not existed two or three years back.
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And then the third element is the focus on retail, because the context here is once the TradingView had started a dozen years back, there's definitely been a number of trading platforms or workstations, which had unfortunately been available only to a selected few.
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So you could potentially have an access but you would have a significant, let's say, pricing or entity barrier to get an access to it.
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So unlocking the access to the features, some of them being considered semi-professional,
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I think that's one of the major aims and targets that we are deliberately trying to achieve from the product perspective.
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So what would you say are the main features?
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Why does TradingView make you a better trader or help you to make better trading decisions?
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Initially it has started from the technical analysis and still a lot of users and partners are referring to trading the charting element as the core functionality.
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So it's an opportunity to look at the markets from the technical perspective and make it in quite easy way if you want to do that.
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You can trade from charts, you can set up an alert with one click.
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But also, if you want to deep dive into it, it can get really complex, as complex as to create an indicator of your own.
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So, I guess that would be the correct description.
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You said the German community is very active there, and you wanted to talk about that?
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Yeah, that's one thing that I've just briefly mentioned and I think it's worth a separate notion.
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In the recent two years, German community has really picked up as compared to, let's say, neighboring benchmarks which are usually
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the UK and France.
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And we've been analyzing that internally and thinking about what have been the catalysts around that.
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Would it be something that we've done on our side or like is this the support of their actionary partners or anything else.
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And eventually we've
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identified that Germany is one of the few markets which opens up opportunities for retail on a number of markets.
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So you've got full and unrestricted access to the major world markets, let's say US, Euronext,
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Then you've got a full-fledged Zitra market, which is an animal of its own.
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And then you've got a very specific and very local story of the certificates trading, which is quite popular in Germany, but is quite foreign as a concept for the other communities.
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Then you've got the crypto access which is again unrestricted for the global players but then there is a number of really heavyweights that are coming from Germany or from the broader DAC region.
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And I think that this example of opportunity to open up various market avenues eventually creates a much larger addressable market.
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which would be an interesting story to compare, though many other regional markets which choose a different way and decide to be protective about their local market and say, you've got, let's say, the discounted option or commission-free access if you are trading local markets.
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But then if you are willing to enter crypto or if you are willing to trade international markets,
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there it would not be necessarily prohibited but there would be a number of barriers which makes it quite complicated and challenging to enter that's why people are not entering.
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How do you see the behavior of traders or investors change over time?
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I mean, you have been trading you trading you for over 10 years, right?
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So do you think people are now more interested in finance or want to be more on board and managing their financials?
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Or what do you think changed over time?
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I think we are really looking at different cohorts of audiences developing in parallel.
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So let's say if you are into crypto,
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you would have your Twitter feed, your Reddit feed, your trading charts, your watch list completely built out around the crypto realm.
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And the past few months would be quite the passing to you, except for the last few days when we are seeing a sparking 20-70% growth on some tokens.
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And if you are looking at this crypto perspective, you may oversee a totally different cohort of traders who would be looking at the certificates that I mentioned or at the international stock markets.
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Or there would be even a third cohort of even more conservative investors.
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let's say portfolio investors rather than traders who are considering all previously mentioned markets as too volatile and rather seek opportunities around fixed income or bond opportunities.
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And we
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As we are supporting all of these asset classes, we would not say there is a definite preference or definite advantage of one of these cohorts.
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We are seeing them developing and growing in parallel, but the timings are
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are just independent on the market setup.
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So let's say the crypto growth has really been the case between 2017-18 and then 2021-22.
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And it's been one of the pillars of the growth to start supporting the crypto market as early as 2013.
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Gold has been the same for the past two years and there's been a number of traders who have absorbed that growth for better or worse.
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I guess that one of the last developed stories in the recent years has been fixed income, but we are looking again.
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That can be my...
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personal guess at the above average rates of the fixed products.
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So we are dedicating a sizeable effort of our development into making these markets actionable on our platform and I think this is important
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to highlight and understand.
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We are not only looking at the frontier markets which are getting headlines or hype.
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We as much understand the opportunity and the confirmed audience and confirmed volume which is coming from, let's say, the traditional or conservative
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investment market strategies and opportunities.
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So how would it look like on your platform?
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Because you said you are looking deeply into these markets.
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We've recently introduced on the platform the Yield Curve, which is definitely an actionable tool for those looking at the fixed products.
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The other element of the platform that I would highlight would be screener and screening opportunities.
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I would say that at the moment our screeners are getting close to the usage activities to the OG original charting implementation and it's also getting as technical as agile
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with a set of custom filters, custom reminders to build the portfolio.
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And obviously moving the functionality from the basic watch list into the portfolio territory.
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So do you also work here with AI tools to actively manage a portfolio or to help a trader to make a better decision?
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Indeed, we've introduced AI co-pilot of our own in earlier this year, in April this year.
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It's been in closed beta available to everyone regardless of the plan or subscription access.
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because we definitely understand the opportunity around the automation, but there is also a significant chunk of responsibility that we are taking with introducing such an innovative tool.
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As you can imagine, this BitaXS has been oversubscribed and remains oversubscribed until this time.
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But the overall feedback as it comes from the community lens is generally positive.
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So I guess we would be moving the product out of BitaXS as soon as next quarter.
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So you also have an actively community management on TradingView, right?
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Like how many of your users are also active in the community?
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Do you have some numbers?
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The community element has been one of the seven stones of the platform.
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And it's a.
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It's really helped development in various regions, including Germany.
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I would say the German community is one of those which praises a lot market mentors, market analysts, commentaries.
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I guess that on a high level we are thinking about
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5% of total active users engaging in the social.
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I would say that's a specific behavior pattern.
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I.e., we've got a number of users who are just looking at the platform on its own without actively contributing or participating in the community.
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there are users who are not participating in the community but are actively looking at the news feed.
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We are supporting the news flow with multiple partners including regional ones,
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And then on the social side we've got the ideas and the chats, which is the content.
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And then the PineScript and so indicators and strategies which are also social in a way because a lot of them are published including the source code.
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And that's done on purpose by their creators and developers so that
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other participants of the community can look at the logic behind the custom indicator and suggest any improvements to it.
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Pine is kind of your own programming language for the indicators, right?
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Yeah, it's a custom language which is based on the ESA language.
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And why did you choose to make a custom language?
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to make it accessible for, let's say, not entry-level users, but for the quite specific use case of technical analysis, right?
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like easy language is a broad programming language.
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So what we've done is we've created a subset of, let's say, 100, 120 standard operators which are
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specifically focused around technical analysis capability.
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So think of that as a shortcut.
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Do you see an increase of new indicators because everyone is talking about VIBE coding and so many people are getting into coding right now?
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Do you see this on your platform as well?
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We are definitely observing that and there is competing opinions about that.
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We are rather supportive of the AI supported tool generation.
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We are as well looking into how the previously mentioned copilot can potentially get extended into the Bindscript section from the platform perspective.
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Now it's obviously coming from the external participation, let's say from the external usage and then gets converted on the platform.
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We've recently started a section which is called Spaces, which allows indicator providers to publish the code and then choose one of the approaches, how to basically launch it on the platform.
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So as I mentioned, it can be completely public.
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for the benefit of other users contributing and improving the initial script, initial strategy.
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It can be as well invite only or
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behind paywall and we are applying the 100% creator approach, i.e.
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anything that is earned by creators is going toward them.
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So I think we need to elaborate a little bit on indicators because probably most of the people out there see TradingView or any kind of charting tool.
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They see the candlestick, they maybe draw some lines into it.
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How do indicators change that game or help you to make better decisions?
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So while drawing tools allow to observe the current price action, I'm personally tilted towards that market view.
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Indicators allow to look at the prior performance and trend from the various angles, volatility, price action, trend following.
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A significant part of the efficiency of an indicator approach is based around backtesting, which is one of the fundamental features of the indicator usage.
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But basically, if you speak about it from the high level, indicators provide you much more angles to look at the market or at the instrument.
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And they serve as a confirmation to, let's say, as a confirmation or validation to the
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price action expectation that you are building as a trader.
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Do you have a favorite set of indicators?
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I would say no.
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I'm personally a price action guy.
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Okay.
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So do you think there are some indicators at least so when people starting to go, I mean, you need to have a little bit of knowledge of trading when you go into indicators.
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Are there some indicators where people should start with or should have a look at to have a deeper understanding about chart technicals?
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So there is a set of, let's say, few dozen to, I would say a few dozen is sufficient,
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of legacy instruments that had been created and established, let's say, in the published book era of technical analysis.
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You think of Bollinger Bands, you think about Denmark.
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you're thinking about MACD and RSI and Alligator oscillator and these are quite conventional tools I would say it's fair to say that they are not on the edge of being most efficient just because
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They've been used by so many people, so they do not provide you a competitive edge or advantage in front of the major use case.
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But starting with understanding how legacy or traditional indicators work,
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is a good step.
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In terms of the custom scripts, that's a dynamic landscape.
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I would say it's always interesting to look at the trending section, trending category.
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of the indicators, those that are being picked up and getting actively discussed.
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One of the examples of that has been a three light indicator, which has been published by one of the Korea traders.
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And as you know, Korea community is one of
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those few who can compete with Germans by trading activity.
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And they've actually made a very interesting call again
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making the indicator and source code becoming entirely public and inviting other users to collaborate into seeing how the further versions of the indicator will improve.
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And I think there's been over
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30 versions of the indicator being created on top of that in the span of just two weeks.
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Interesting.
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You also mentioned backtesting.
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So let's say I'm a trader, I'm on your platform, I understand how candlesticks work, I can draw lines, I know how I can add indicators and how indicators work.
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Now I have developed a strategy for myself.
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How can I, how does this backtesting work to see if my strategy is really working?
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So the opportunity with backtesting is that you can stress test your idea, let's say with a set of indicators, on different markets, i.e.
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you can try FX, you can try Tesla, on different time frames, i.e.
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what if I trade intraday?
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What if I make it a carry trade over a few weeks or even a few months?
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If you do that in real life, that would take you years, right?
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But if you're backtesting that, you can basically run through the idea and see how, let's say, that would work in the previous 12 months or in the previous 5 years or in the previous week.
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on the different instruments because there is also an acknowledgement that obviously different asset classes provide different levels of volatility and there would be no universal set of indicators that would work for all of the markets equally efficient.
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Do you see traders from different regions behave differently?
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Like is there, for example, a difference between a German trader and a trader in South Korea?
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I would say the major difference is that Germans stop trading in the weekends.
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Yeah.
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Okay, Koreans don't.
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It's actually an interesting development because this behavior pattern has obviously started with crypto and has been particularly popular in Japan and Korea, where it's basically become an introvert weekend hobby.
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But now we are looking at
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futures exchanges getting us used to the idea of 24 to 6 trading.
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So I think it's already a question of time rather than a question per se when the trading would become universally
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24-7 because again the hyperliquid case and prediction market segment are actively closing the gap of this weekend price discovery.
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I'm sure you've been following the oil story so that's basically been a source of information during Sundays how the markets would open on Monday without the markets being actually open.
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And since this
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products already exist, I think it would rather get completed by the source providers in some new term future.
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How do you see, because there are also now coming more and more tokenized stocks, how do you see this changing the game?
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Because now certain stocks are also available for trading 24-7.
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Yeah, that's technically true.
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And I've been looking at the Talking Nice Talks myself over the weekends.
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I would say that this is similar to the story of...
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pre-IPO stocks.
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This is basically made on a quite broad and quite rough price assumptions yet.
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So,
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I would say that tokenized stocks are pretty much what CFDs or spread bets are as a product, but they do not provide as much of insight in the price discovery when the actual underlying markets are closed.
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Do you think there's kind of a fear in the traditional stock markets because with tokenized stocks now they are trading 24 seven and they do not participate in the trading?
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Because I think, was it the NASDAQ last week or two weeks ago, which also mentioned that they want to extend their trading hours?
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Do you think that these traditional markets will catch up and also open up for longer timeframes?
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I definitely not describe that as a fear because tokenized stocks would not exist without the underlying publisher or emittent of the stock.
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And I would say that like this additional market asset classes are just creating, let's say, a new cohort of users, perhaps they are
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capturing the younger audience, perhaps they are capturing the audience from developing markets where access to the actual exchanges is again restricted, i.e.
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in order to open a brokerage account you need to come into the branch and put a physical signature.
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So why would you do that if you can just trade a tokenized version of it?
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But there should be no fear from them because if you are looking at their published statements, the traditional exchanges are actually...
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feeling quite well and growing in revenue despite the existence and addition of all of the Frontier market players.
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It seems that these new market players are rather supporting the original market participants and just strengthening their position.
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How do you see tokenized assets in general as a new asset class?
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I think personally we still have kind of a liquidity problem there still, but also like the big consultancy companies or finance companies are predicting like crazy numbers.
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I also heard something like, yeah, we tokenize everything.
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I mean it makes a lot of sense for things like maybe stocks, commodities, but also real estate because it opens up asset classes where retail could not invest into yet.
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So how do you see the whole field of tokenized assets?
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I'd say that we've been hearing about real-world tokenization two to three years back much more than we are listening to it now.
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Like obviously there are real estate tokens.
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There are even wine tokens.
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But I think you've correctly identified that if a token provider is trying to create a product of its own rather than to build it on top of the publicly traded product,
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it eventually comes up to the liquidity and also price discovery.
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You do not expect that much price point updates when you are thinking about a box of wine.
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That's true.
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And also about the real estate.
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I mean, the price point needs to come somewhere, right?
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It's the Oracle problem.
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The second big problem we have with RWAs.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So, um.
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I think that's an identified bottleneck and that's why these projects are perhaps not picking up.
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They are not providing as much of actual trading opportunity as compared to publicly traded products.
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Do you think this will change over time because the predictions are pretty good on tokenized assets?
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I think we've been smart to identify the problem, getting the dynamic and trusted source of information and translating that into the liquid price action.
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Once that would be achieved, that would become a much viable trading product.
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Are you supporting tokenized assets already?
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Or how do you decide what kind of charts and prices are accessible on TradingView?
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um so we've got north of 200 providers overall which can be a separate providers which can be a trading execution partners um i would say that our eventual source of truth
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of what we are connecting next and in which order, in which priority is the user requests.
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And that's actually shaping the pipeline much more than...
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the actual business discussion, i.e.
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if there would be a larger number of requests from the partner you are not actively engaged with, and like there would be an engaged partner which has not got the confirmed user interest, the former one would get a priority.
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You mentioned prediction markets before.
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I also think like that prediction markets will be one of the huge drivers for the next cycle.
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But how do you read a chart for prediction markets compared to like a normal crypto assets?
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Like that's totally different, right?
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Yeah, but we can already look at the implementation of both Kalshi and Polar Market utilizing our charting.
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And obviously, we are working on getting the prediction markets available on the platform itself.
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But there is...
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two cohorts of prediction events.
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One is binary, which is quite easy to be reflected via charting.
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This is basically a yes or no probability, and then you can make it a line or area chart where you just put the probability on the percentage scale.
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So let's say probability of 43% going up to 57% and so on.
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The more complex solution is the multiple choice probabilities, i.e.
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if the next prime minister appears before the end of summer in November or in March next year.
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But again, there is a direct relation to another asset class which had been existing for quite some time and that's options.
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So we've already introduced options a couple of years back.
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and it's been an extremely popular feature, I would say.
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I think late last year we've introduced the complex option functionality, which is basically the interpretation of a multiple prediction event, right?
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Like you would just apply the complex option builder onto the prediction event, and that's how you display it.
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What kind of new asset classes or trends are you seeing popping up?
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You know, since we've just went into discussing prediction markets, it would be an easy take to suggest prediction markets as a recent trend.
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But we've been actually looking at the
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Let's see, if you look beyond the headlines of getting the updated evaluations and record-breaking number of contracts exchanged and again the traditional players getting into the
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segment, if you look cold-headed into the actual total number of unique user participants, that would be less than 10 million users overall, which is
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quite a humble number as compared to the overall active trading addressable audience, which is considered around 500 million worldwide, let's say across all of the opportunities.
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How do you see...
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Especially the future in regards to AI trading because like more and more AI agents popping up.
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Do you see a future where AI will do most of the trading also for retail?
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And how does this change your business model overall?
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I wouldn't say that that is something structurally different from the algo training, automated training that had been existing for few dozen years really.
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We are just changing expert advisors.
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into the AI model, right?
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And if you think about it, the algorithmic trading has been available
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continuously.
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And there's always been a fraction of users who choose to be participating in it.
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So I think that AI is on high level the significant improvement towards that layer of algorithmic or automated trading.
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But before that AI is applied a lot of traders would say okay, I'm not comfortable with
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making the machine-based decisions.
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I would rather prefer to keep making decisions myself.
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And that is a personal human choice.
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So maybe for everyone who is interested into trading, what do you think, where should they start and what should they do to become a better trader than today?
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Start with trading you.
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I mean, there's a vast number of opportunities.
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So eventually, I guess you need to understand if you are looking at active trading site or you are rather looking at,
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building a managed portfolio that you would be revaluating a number of times in a year rather than number of times in a week rather than in a day as compared to former example.
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I've mentioned previously screener, I think the screening opportunity considering the number of trading possibilities at the moment, it cannot be overestimated, right?
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If we are talking about the markets, realistically, we are talking about the US markets, perhaps the crypto market, gold market, even oil market had not picked up, let's say, a tenth of the usage activity as compared to other commodity markets, despite how active and aggressive the story has developed.
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Obviously, you've got the Forex market.
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I think we've started with... We are now talking about them much less as compared to where I started working.
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But beyond these globally recognized opportunities, there is a lot of local potential.
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You know that from XITRA and Certificate example.
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there's recently been a turmoil in the Korean market which had also broken through the global headlines, right?
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But let's say you're really thinking about the Brazilian stock market, but it's actually a quite volatile and active market of its own.
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I hope that we've done the...
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We've done the homework of delivering a set of international markets being available for analysis and further trading.
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So I hope that anyone's choice would not be limited only to those items which appear on the headlines.
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So maybe one last question, because this is something I'm asking every guest.
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So what's your wildest prediction for the next 20 years?
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And I know it's a lot 20, I know it's a long timeframe and I get so many different answers from that, but in like in the niche, in the, in the industry you are working on, what do you think is the widest prediction for the next 20 years?
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This question gets me off guard.
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I should have listened to other podcasts until the very end.
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I know that would be a biased, wildest suggestion, but I would not see a savings account in 20 years.
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and would rather see a managed account to any extent, like being possible in various markets and various level of risk, but it can be automated or manual, but in any case it would be structured as to tie to a specific asset.
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Perfect.
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Juan Cassan from TradingView, thank you very much for your time.
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Thank you, likewise.
