Rachel: Welcome to Deep Trope, where we go deep into fantasy and romance books, one trope at a time. We're your two book besties gushing over plot characters, Easter eggs theories, and of course, our favorite spicy moments. I'm Rachel, romanticy theorist.
Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy.
Rachel: And today is the start of our read-along coverage of the Practical Magic series by Alice Hoffman in the lead up to the movie sequel coming out on September 11th. Each week we'll cover a single book in the series in release order. So if you haven't read them before, you only need to read one book each week to follow along. We'll cover book two, The Rules of Magic, on August 18th, and Book 3, Magic Lessons, on August 25th.
Kate: Then, on September 1st, we'll briefly interrupt our coverage of the Practical Magic series to welcome LJ Claren, author of the Solvarin series, on the podcast. We just completed our deep dive of book one, The Silversmith, so this will be our opportunity to ask all of our most pressing questions before the release of the incendiary on September 8th. If there's anything you're dying to know, be sure to drop us a comment or DM with exactly what you want to know from LJ. And that also means you'll have an extra week to complete the Book of Magic before our final episode of the Alice Hoffman series on September eighth.
Rachel: So let's dive into practical magic. This series will be structured differently than some of our previous deep dives. We'll start off each episode with a brief recap of the book before diving into some of the details, including the characters and relationships, the impact of the love curse, and the different types of spells and magic that we see in the book. And for this episode, we'll talk about some of the key differences between the book and the movie as well. This series is intended to be a fun book club style discussion. So pour yourself a midnight margarita and enjoy. I personally am enjoying a little kombucha today, which I thought was a perfectly witchy drink, but won't addle my mind for our discussion.
Kate: Yeah, I feel like kombucha is kind of like a potion, right? You it's brood, yeah.
Rachel: I think so, yes. I've tr Mm, mm-hmm. And I tried to brew it myself before. and things went south. Things went south. That would be that might have been one that was covered in the book.
Kate: A spell gone wrong.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Well, if you want to get the full immersive experience, be sure to follow us on social media where we'll be posting different prompts and interactive elements throughout the series. We always love chatting with you, so let's build our coven this practical magic season. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube at Deep Trope Podcast. But don't look out for any kombucha recipes anytime soon.
Rachel: Certainly not from me.
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: And finally, before we begin, a quick content warning. This episode will be chock full of spoilers for practical magic, so listen at your own risk if you haven't finished the book yet. Any content warnings from the book, such as references to death and abusive relationships, apply to this podcast. We are two unfiltered millennials, so if you're with anyone who is easily offended, maybe toss on those headphones. Alright, Kate. Would you like to start us off with a recap of practical magic?
Kate: I would love to. So, Practical Magic follows the story of Sally Owens and her sister Jillian, who grew up with their great aunts Jet and Frances after their parents' untimely death. The ants love the girls, but are somewhat lackadaisical with their parenting style. They don't worry themselves with silly things like proper meals, discipline, rules, or socializing. Sally and Jillian grow up watching their aunts conduct spells under the cover of night for desperate neighborhood women. One particular love spell sticks with them and they see the detrimental effects throughout the years. The girls are just over a year apart in age, but their upbringing manifests itself in very different ways. Sally becomes cautious and responsible, while Gillian becomes wild and boycrazy. At 18, Gillian escapes in the middle of the night to elope and start a grand adventure. Sally stays put, preferring a quiet, predictable life. That is, until she falls for a man named Michael that works at the local hardware store. He and Sally married quickly and moved into the attic of the ants' house. Michael changed the house and everyone in it for the better. The roses in the garden grew more lush and choked out the ragweed, the path didn't form ice anymore, the bats left the roof, and the ants had great affection for him. Everything felt warmer and more cheerful with him around. They have two children together: first Antonia, followed by Kylie, three and a half years later. They were Blissfully happy for a few years before the Death Watch Beetle began chirping the house, Michael was killed suddenly by a drunk driver shortly thereafter. Sally is depressed for a full year and doesn't leave her bed or care for herself or her children. Instead, she lets the ants care for her children. Her depression is so bad she describes it as not seeing color for the full year. The Owens lose all ties to the community that Sally had developed over the years. Which becomes especially evident when one day, a year after her husband passes, Sally finally gets out of bed, and she finds her aunts and the girls in the park. They're dressed in all black and not playing, but rather sitting and observing those around them. When Antonia returns a stray ball to a neighborhood boy, he pushes Antonia down so hard her shoes fly off her feet. This prompts Sally to yell stop it, which are her first words in a year. After this, Sally Takes her daughters and moves away to Long Island, New York, despite Kylie and Antonia's protests. She raises them strictly, or at least more strictly, than the ants, but still takes the girls to visit the ants each summer. Kylie and Antonia grow up to be very different from one another. Antonia is a beautiful redhead, and all the boys in town fall head over heels for her. She is so popular, she's even chosen as the lead in the school play for three years in a row. Kylie, on the other hand, is a tall, lanky brunette. She loves playing chess and hanging out with her sort of weirdo, antisocial best friend Gideon Barnes. They have a wonderful suburban life until Jillian shows up one night out of the blue with her dead boyfriend in the back of her car. She believes she accidentally killed him by dosing him with nightshade every night to curb his drinking and abuse. To avoid being blamed for his death, Gillian convinces Sally to bury Jimmy in the backyard beneath the lilacs. The sisters are determined to forget about Jimmy, but his presence is never fully gone, starting with the lilacs he's buried beneath, which immediately burst into an out of season bloom. Despite what an absolute piece of shit Jimmy was, Jillian still mourns his loss. She felt like she truly loved him, and seeing where that landed her, not to mention all the other disastrous times she's been in love, she vows never to fall in love again. Jillian stays with Sally and the girls and grows especially close to Kylie. On Kylie's 13th birthday, Jillian helps to give her a makeover that transforms her from a gangly tween to a gorgeous young woman who rivals even Antonia in beauty. This act of rebellion upsets both her mother, who worries about Kylie following in Gillian's footsteps, and Gideon, who feels betrayed that Kylie is abandoning their bond as outcasts. Gillian meets Ben Fry, a science teacher at the girls' school, and he falls immediately and deeply in love with her. Many men have had the same experience upon meeting Gillian, but Ben is different from the others. Jillian initially resists his advances, but decides to give him a chance and finds that his stability, devotion, and kindness are a welcome balm to her aching heart. Kylie has always had a kind of sixth sense for emotions and auras, but it develops into a strong clairvoyance as she grows up. She notices the ominous aura surrounding the ever-blooming lilac bushes and sees a dark, threatening male figure standing beneath the bushes. Sally and Gillian began to experience odd, inexplicable events, like items going missing, malfunctioning appliances, paychecks torn to shreds, and thanks to the growing resentment between them, They blame each other for these annoyances. When Kylie mentions the scary man lingering in their backyard, they realize that Jimmy's haunting spirit is actually the reason for the odd occurrences. Recognizing the threat he can pose, Sally cuts down the lilac bushes in an attempt to rid them of his haunting spirit. And it works for a time, and his ghost seems to be gone. The atmosphere at the house improves again as Sally and Gillian's relationship strengthens. When Kylie goes to Antonia for support after a horrible attack by a group of men, their relationship strengthens as well. The peace is broken once again when an investigator appears at their door looking for Jimmy. His name is Gary Hallett, and he's looking for Jimmy in connection to a series of deaths at a college in Tucson linked to bad drugs that Jimmy was selling. Jillian is determined to lie their way out of the mess, but Sally feels an odd bond to the man and doesn't feel like she can lie to him. She and Jillian make an attempt anyway, but Gary sees through their deception, aided by an ill-timed appearance of Jimmy's ring delivered via Toad, and Gary must decide whether to honor his commitment to the law and his work or his inexplicable connection to Sally. He recognizes that Jimmy was an evil man, but he feels conflicted nonetheless. Realizing that Jimmy's spirit is still haunting them, Sally and Jillian know they need to call in reinforcements. The ants arrive, much to Kylie and Antonia's delight, and set to work on a concoction to rid the garden of Jimmy for good. The Owens women all work together to brew the potion, and upon dumping it on the spot Jimmy was buried, they feel his presence finally leave them. The story concludes seeing the Owens women once again finding common ground and strengthening their relationships to each other and to their special family legacy. Jillian is feeling secure in her happy relationship with Ben. Gary ultimately decides that Jimmy was indeed punished for his crimes and finds a way to let Sally off the hook, allowing them to continue their relationship. Kylie and Antonia become more confident in themselves and their relationship with each other grows stronger.
Rachel: Thank you, Kate. So the core conflict in this story really revolves around this love curse. And it's something that we'll see throughout the entire series really as well. so why don't we start there and start by really kind of diving a little bit deeper into what that love curse is and everything that we learn about it in this book. So we learn that the Owens women are just unlucky in love, dating all the way back to the very original Owens matriarch, Maria Owens. We get some background on Maria. So she came to Massachusetts in the 1600s. Not a very good time to come to Massachusetts.
Kate: No, no, definitely not. There's a bit of a history there, I think, for women who don't conform.
Rachel: Right. And this book does not confirm that they're in Salem, Massachusetts, but they do reference Marblehead, which is where I've stayed both times that I've gone to Salem, and it's literally the next town over. so I think that it's supposed to be implied that it's taking place in Salem and Essex County.
Kate: Yeah, for sure.
Rachel: and when it comes to women who do not comply, that is a great way to describe Maria. So she shows up in town with this small saschel of belongings, a baby daughter, diamonds sewed into the hem of her dress, and she's wearing all black with no husband. Now, the all-black actually I think probably was probably appropriate for the time period.
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: but none of the rest of it was. And she was just this absolutely beautiful, independent, single mother. Like it's unheard of. so of course, people were suspicious of her. and it certainly didn't help that things just seemed to go her way. Her garden thrived, her baby never cried, you know, men were drawn to her, even though she turned them away. And the family still lives in the house that she built on Magnolia Street. She directed 12 Carpenters in How to Build the House, which is very like. Bible E, right? Like I think it's a little bit of a reference
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: to Jesus and the 12 disciples. so maybe there was like a little bit of a magic element there with the the 12 carpenters. because otherwise I don't know how a house from the 1600s would still be thriving today.
Kate: Well, I mean, yeah, not the sixteen hundreds. My house was built in the seventeen hundreds. That's not that far off, and I'm sitting in the attic right now.
Rachel: That's true, that's true. I I'm sure you reinforced it with a few spells though.
Kate: Well, you know, that's my secret. But they do reference a few times in this book about the wood in the house that never needs to be polished. So
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: the house is definitely like not a normal house from the 1600s. I I think that it is being kept kept up with some some magic things.
Rachel: Yeah. that being said, Maria had a secret, clearly. She seems like a lady with a secret.
Kate: She ha she had more than one, okay. But one big one, right?
Rachel: Yeah, one big one, unbeknownst to the rest of the town. She was traveling several times a month to visit a man in the town over, until one day he didn't come to the door. So Maria banged on it, injuring her hand in the process, until finally his wife came to the door. Which is not what you want, right? Of all the ways to have a broken
Kate: No.
Rachel: heart, like that's pretty intense. So Maria cast this curse on herself and her family. Seemingly unintentionally, she wanted to prevent herself from experiencing this type of heartbreak again, but it really spiraled and sort of backfired into something else, which is something that we do see with like love spells and some of the magic throughout this series.
Kate: Right. We very rarely see a love spell that goes perfectly and doesn't have any like unintended consequences. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: yeah, like her her original intent was to be like, well, this fucking sucked and I don't want anybody else to experience this kind of pain. But in doing so, she I mean it is a curse, right? It's not a a gift to her
Rachel: Right.
Kate: descendants. So She yeah, she ended up cursing them to experience, I would argue, even more painful love than if they didn't have this influence on them. So there are quite a list of doomed love affairs that we see in this book alone. And I'm sure we're gonna continue to see those in the rest of the series, but just a quick rundown. So we have Maria, obviously we just talked about the OG scorned lover. We have Sally and Jillian's parents who are described in the book their death as happening when they were so in love that they failed to notice the fire engulfing the house that they were in. so they were like
Rachel: Oops.
Kate: tangled up in bed and like not noticing that the house was burning down around them. So not great.
Rachel: I mean, being that in love sounds crazy.
Kate: Yeah, how about the burning to death part, Rachel? Does that sound
Rachel: No, I mean it sounds awful, I'm just saying, like
Kate: yeah, like crazy bad. Crazy bad.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. It seems more like
Kate: Got it. Got it.
Rachel: yeah, like like a mania than than love.
Kate: yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. There's a lot of the like things in this book, like the obsession that men feel for Jillian and some other things that feel like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: not healthy at all in so many ways, very, very
Rachel: Right.
Kate: much like some type of mania. but anyway, going going back to the the doomed love affairs, the ants were also described as having some loves early on in their lives, when they were younger, that both died on the same day by being struck by lightning while trying to prove their love to the ants.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: And from what we can tell, they do not have any other like attempts at love. It seems like that experience turned them off to love. And they're just, you know, two spinsters living in this house together. And then we have Gillian, who probably has too many doomed love affairs to count. But Jimmy is the latest example, and then she has at least three failed marriages that we know of and, you know, countless other affairs. and then we have Sally who had a great love in Michael, who was tragically killed by the drunk driver. So, you know, that's just a a brief rundown of the the doomed love that we see just in this book, and we can tie all of it to the curse. And you know, while love is often presented in this book as a destructive force, we do see both sides of it. So Sally rejected love and kept herself distant from others for so long. But when she did meet Michael, she was blissfully happy and she felt fulfilled and Jillian sought to avoid being hurt by maintaining control over each of her relationships, like seemingly finding men who liked her more than she liked them, and it was just very toxic. but then she finds love again with Ben, and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: it seems much less toxic and happier than her other relationships. So, you know, we do see both sides of love, and there's you know, a point at the end of the book that they are very encouraging about love, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: which is still kind of confusing to me because I'm like, yes, you see some of the the high points of love, but they still are cursed and they still know that it's not going to work out for them. So I'm still a little bit unsure about how I feel about them being like, Yeah, you should still fall in love whenever you can You know, 'cause I'm like, okay, I don't know that I would want to sign myself up for that over and over again. I mean, what do you think?
Rachel: Well, I hear you, but I think that that just is the definition of love. And I think that's kind of the point of the book, right? Like, as humans, there will always be an end to every relationship. Doesn't mean it's always a completely tragic end, but you know, we come into this world alone and we leave it alone despite the relationships that we have along the way. And I think that's kind of the takeaway of the book is like love is always worth it. Attempting love is always worth it. And it's what's that saying? It's like the experience, the journey, not the end or the destination. Or the de the journey is the de destination.
Kate: Yeah, something like that. And I was gonna say some an another saying that that's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. You know, so there's a lot of
Rachel: Yes, exactly.
Kate: like a lot of sentiments that agree with that, but most of those are also not in the context of a curse that like guarantees that your love will end in tragedy. Because yes, like there's always that chance. whether you're cursed or not, but to go into a new relationship knowing that that's going to be the end, not just like a possibility, but like a guarantee pretty much for these women, that's where I'm stuck. And where I'm like, I don't know how I would feel about love if I was an Owens woman.
Rachel: Yeah, I think that's totally fair. I also, at least in this book, I don't think that they know that much about the curse. Or at least Sally and Jillian don't seem to. Like they don't seem to have a solution. Now we know that they have sort of taken a step back from magic, whether that's by choice or the way they were raised, like they're really not practicing magic in any way. So maybe the ants have a little bit more knowledge of it, but they're sort of debating like, is it worth it? Does the curse
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: really exist? I think that Gillian and Sally are sort of in this position where they're trying to decide if they believe in the curse and if they believe that it's inescapable.
Kate: Yeah, I guess I guess that is fair because, you know, we as readers are seeing this and being like, Well, you're all doomed and it's very clear
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that this is not ever gonna go well for you unless you can find some way to break the curse, which we don't see in this book. They do not explicitly break the curse. So we assume that even even though they are they kind of like ended up in these seemingly happy relationships, like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in the back of our minds we're still like, Okay, but how long is that gonna last?
Rachel: Right.
Kate: but they are not necessarily seeing it as holistically as we are as readers. So I yeah, I guess that that's fair from their point of view, they might still have hope. And you know, that's good for them.
Rachel: I think it would be very difficult to go through life without even a speck of hope.
Kate: Yeah. Or, you know, maybe you just learn to to live with it and learn to enjoy the good moments when you have them, even if you know that they're not going to last. So yeah, maybe it's just like you'd have to change your outlook on life. I think I would struggle with that, but if you lived in that reality, I don't think you'd have a choice.
Rachel: I feel like I would become like a version of Jillian where I was just like a big slut but didn't ask anybody's names. Cause I don't know how else you
Kate: Ha ha.
Rachel: get through life. Like you I I don't know how you get through life make
Kate: So you would still avoid love then?
Rachel: I think so. I mean, 'cause yeah, like how else would you get through life making those types of attachments? At least after the first husband died, I think that I would probably avoid love.
Kate: But the whole thing about the book is that you're supposed to embrace it anyway.
Rachel: Yeah, I know. I'm not s
Kate: Yeah. Okay. So so we're kind of on the same page then. We're like seeing their reality. I'm like, yeah, I don't think I think I would be more like the ants and just kind of avoid it. But yeah, I like I like your idea of still enjoying the attention and the affection that I'm getting from other people, but just
Rachel: What
Kate: trying to avoid the attachments. That does sound like it could be fun, at least for a while.
Rachel: Just saying, these women are loved. Men fawn over them, fall in love with them very easily. Life would be so easy if you walk into a car dealership and you're able to get like a brand new car for dirt cheap because these men are falling in love with you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would try to just enjoy the benefits of the curse rather than the negative side.
Kate: Right. Yeah. So you're you're saying you would have used Jillian's powers for for more more benefit than she seemed to. You would not have gotten stuck with Jimmy and this
Rachel: Exactly. Exactly.
Kate: rotten relationship. You'd be like, He is one notch on the bedpost. He is not
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: worth ruining my life over. Yeah.
Rachel: Yes, I don't understand why none of these women took that approach.
Kate: Just enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I think it's because ultimately there there's still people that have feelings. And I also think that that could be part of the curse, too, of like, yes, all of these men are attracted very much to them, but it also kind of goes the other way, especially with Jillian. She fell in love very easily. She was not really able to avoid the the attraction the other way, you know? So yeah, like the way that
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: you describe it, that sounds great. If you could just stay unattached and just enjoy the the attention and the the benefits that it gets you, I mean, sounds key, but it doesn't sound like Jillian was capable of that. Like she fell in love
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: almost as often as people fell in love with her is what it sounds like. So that and that sounded like the curse to me, right? Like that they
Rachel: I agree. Mm-hmm.
Kate: can also can't the women also can't help their attraction. So
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I think I think that's the takeaway here is that the curse from we, you know, this book is very subtle when it comes to the curse and the magic. Like you're kind of having to infer from what you're seeing happen to these women. think it's a very good point that these men are falling in love with them very easily, but they're also falling head over heels. Like we're gonna Go through these relationships, there's a lot of instances of insta love. And that's what the curse has to be, that it's that they're actually falling as well.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It's a and yeah, it it it it was interesting to kind of try to, like you said, infer like where the curse was influencing things and where it was just human behavior, you know. And I think
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that was kind of the whole the whole book and I loved the kind of subtlety of that where a lot of the interpretation was up to you of like, is that magic or is that just being alive? So but you
Rachel: Yep. Yeah.
Kate: mentioned the relationships. I think the relationships were such a huge part of this book. I feel like it was a book more about relationships than it was about magic. So let's
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: talk about them.
Rachel: Yes. So first we have those female bonds, which are really the coven, right? The Owens family coven. And in many ways, this book almost felt like women's fiction because of that, because like the women's stories and their life are like so much at the center of the book. the relationships between the family members really drove the character growth and the plot line. So let's start with the matriarchs, Aunt Frances and Aunt Jet.
Kate: Yes, I love them. So Francis and Jet, they're collectively known as the ants. They're pretty much always referred to collectively, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: almost like they're not individual people for a lot of this book. but they are Sally and Jillian's unconventional guardians for most of their childhoods.
Rachel: And these gals seem like the kind of spincers I'd like to be raised by. They do not give one hoot about what people in town think of them. They're just fine doing their own thing, and they attempt to raise Sally and Gillian to think the same way.
Kate: They are absolutely unapologetically themselves and they also readily embrace their magic. which,
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: like you said, they're they're trying to raise Sally and Jillian to be themselves and be, you know, unapologetic in that way, but they're not necessarily pushing the magic on them in the same way.
Rachel: Yes. And that's very interesting to me because magic is clearly like the core of who they are. It's obviously their only job, right? Like we don't see them have a job. We see that they have a very strict routine, but the only time that they go to work is at nighttime
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: when they turn the light on, the back porch, and do these spells for the neighborhood women. So I'm hoping that we get that as the series continues, that we learn why they're raising Gillian and Sally in the way that they are. but maybe it is that magic's sort of a choice and you have to kind of accept it on your own and maybe that's the reason.
Kate: Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking, right? Of like there's there's two thing two reasons that I was considering for why they would embrace the magic so much, but not necessarily push Sally and Jillian to do the same. And one of them is exactly what you said of, you know, they care more about Sally and Jillian just being themselves. And if that doesn't include magic, if they're not interested in it, if they don't care to explore that part of themselves, then the ants are not going to to insist on it. but the other one, and this is just me really looking forward to the next book in the series where we get to learn more about Francis and Jet. But the other thing that I was thinking was that maybe they've had enough negative experiences with magic throughout their lives that they're not that eager to have the girls be heavily involved in it. You know, like Just knowing that they had that experience with their lost loves at a young age and they never really wanted to try that again and they, you know, got into this kind of rut of behavior and in their life that it it seems like they are kind of trying to avoid some of the negative things that they experienced with magic. So maybe that's influencing how they they raise the girls as well.
Rachel: Hmm, yeah, that could definitely be it. I'm excited to learn more about their backstory as we continue the series. but it does seem like in many ways, Sally and Jillian showing up on their doorstep essentially save them from themselves. Like the routine that they created is very strict, very boring. They eat the same thing every day, all of which sounds awful. like the description
Kate: Yes.
Rachel: of the food. I think they're eating like turnips for lunch or something like that. Like it was so gross.
Kate: Just sad. Yeah.
Rachel: yeah, yeah. It yes, it's very much like two women in mourning is what it fit felt like when you when you read their description. So Gillian and Sally showing up changed everything for them, right? They d they described it as like, you know, they shifted their meals to peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and they had these two little girls to care for and and brought magic into their life in a different type of way.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And I I also think that it's it's really interesting that they described the ants as being very certain in their fate. So they were very certain. They thought they knew exactly like how they were going to to die, like what the rest of their lives would look like. And it pretty much was just a continuation of this routine that they'd been living in for who knows how many
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: years. And then at the end they'd like die in their beds. in their nineties. You know, like they were like, that's my life, and I'm that's fine. But then Sally and Jillian come to live with them and it's completely disrupted that view
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of, you know, like what they thought that their life was going to be. it's just really interesting to think about how, you know, when they described how they were so certain in their fate, you know, I did wonder if they knew that that was their fate, or that's just what they expected, you know, with the magic, again, it's very subtle.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: So you're not really sure exactly what that is, but like I got the the inkling that it seemed like they like had some kind of magical understanding of their their future, but it was able to be changed. And I think that's
Rachel: Right.
Kate: something that's really interesting. And I'm gonna keep looking out for that in other books books in this series because there are some times where it seems like you can't change fate. Like we'll talk about the Death Watch Beetle as as one of the magical things in this book. That doesn't these seem to be something that is able to be escaped, right? That's a fate that once it happens, it's it's set. But the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: ants, they were able to change their future and it completely was upended when the girls came to stay with them. So I just I thought that that was An interesting twist.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. And we don't know how they know their future or why they're so sure of it. Like we don't know what type
Kate: Right.
Rachel: of magic is influencing that. We see that Jillian dabbles in tarot cards, I would say. We don't know to what
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: extent. We don't know if she's actually seen anything in these cards, or if it's just something she's turning to to make money and it's not real for her. But if it's something like that, or it's more of like a vision, we don't know. But I do think like in fantasy books in general. That is definitely something with like fate and prophecy and vision. You're never getting the full picture. You never get the full picture. You're getting
Kate: Right.
Rachel: like one piece of the puzzle and you're trying to determine your fate from that tiny little glimpse that you're getting. That being said, it seems like everyone really adores the ants, right? Despite the fact that Gillian and Sally aren't following in their footsteps in a magical way, they have a really good relationship with them. Sally doesn't love, you know, their laxadaisical approach to parenting her children. But she still really adores them. And even when she moves away, she makes it a point to bring the girls to visit every summer. Sally's daughters also, of course, adore them. They're sort of like these like grandparents to them, right?
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: Jillian's really the only one who sort of dreads seeing them again, but I think that's more of a reflection of her own life and the choices she made. And dread at like putting up that mirror, right? Of the those people that raised
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: her and seeing like what they think about how who she's become. But of course, they're so loving and gentle with her. Like it's totally fine when they're reunited. They're very reassuring and proud of who she is, despite everything she has been through.
Kate: Yeah, so it's it seemed like it was more about yeah, like you said, like Jillian's view of herself and she was kind of projecting that onto the ants and worried that they
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: were going to judge her. But it was really kind of like her judging herself and
Rachel: Uh-huh.
Kate: the ants just love her and it seems pretty unconditional from their end.
Rachel: Yeah. So then we have Sally and Jillian. And that's an interesting relationship. I would say that that relationship is probably the most central to the story, right? Poor older sister Sally taking care of everyone around her, but especially Jillian, her first child, essentially, even though they're only one year apart. But at four years old, Sally had to step up and be the one that called the ants and tell them that she and Jillian needed to live with them. She was the one who packed their bags and told Gillian they needed to get rid of all their belongings and pack light from now on. Comparatively, Jillian has always been the younger sister and been cared for, and she's been so beloved by so many people that as a result, she's really carefree, but also careless, right? She's
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: she's like this tornado. when she comes into town. Like Sally's excited to
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: be reunited with her sister, but she's also dreading what she's bringing with her.
Kate: yeah. Like she sh it sounds so chaotic to be near her.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Like I I think I would really struggle to have somebody like that in my life, to be honest. because I I feel like I am like a little bit more towards Sally's personality. but having that just like unpredictable nature of like when she showed up on Sally's doorstep with a dead guy in her car. Like Sally didn't even seem that shocked. She was just like, Well, you know,
Rachel: No. She just was like, I'll just bury him.
Kate: like I knew that seeing Jillian was gonna like something was gonna happen. I guess it's this. Like
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And of course she buries him for her, right? Like she's the one who gets the shovel.
Kate: Right. Yeah, no, like Jillian didn't even bury her own dead boyfriend, so
Rachel: Yeah. Sally solves the problem like she always does. it is interesting though that you say that because you and I are both younger siblings. So really in theory we should be the Jillians. Maybe we are
Kate: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know. I think like I'm thinking about my sisters. I don't think that we have a Jillian in the midst of us, at least, you know, somebody who's so careless with their impact on other people, which I'm grateful for. So
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: I don't know if you have a a Jillian character in your life, but it just again, she sounds like a lot of fun, potentially, but the lack of Accountability would drive me nuts.
Rachel: Yeah, I mean I definitely have experienced people like Jillian. And I don't know that I would say that it's fun. Like, it can be fun. But she's one of those people who's used to being fond over, used to being the center of retention, used to being like just the most popular girl, right? And it's like those people that you see kind of peak in high school. I think there's a reason that Gillian was so nervous to see her aunts, because They saw her at her best. Life got worse for Jillian after that, right? So
Kate: Right. Like it's it's less cute when you're in your thirties and still acting the same way as when you were sixteen. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. That being said though, I love Jillian in the movie. It's just in the book In the book I was like nails on a chalkboard sometimes.
Kate: Yeah. Well Jillian in the movie was Nicole Kidman as well, who it's hard
Rachel: That's true.
Kate: for me to not like a character played by Nicole Kidman. I am a fan.
Rachel: I know, same. Like she she can't play
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: like somebody that I don't like. Even when she plays unlikable characters, I still like them.
Kate: I know, I know, she's good.
Rachel: Yeah. all right, and then we have the other set of sisters, right? So Kylie and Antonia.
Kate: Yeah, and their relationship is really interesting too because I see a lot of parallels between Kylie and Antonia and Sally and Jillian. You know, you have Kylie who tends to reject romance just like her mother often did, while Antonia tends to lean into her impact on other people and enjoys the attention like Jillian did. And Kylie and Antonia's differences do keep them at odds for many years. But when Antonia comforts Kylie after her assault, she takes on this like protective role that helps to repair their relationship that like doesn't really seem to be the same for Sally and Jillian. Like Sally comes in and she plays that protective role for Jillian, but it almost seems to be more expected in that one because Sally has always played that role versus Antonia was very like antagonistic and like mean to Kylie for a long time. So when she finally stepped into that more like older sister role, it shifted their relationship for the better versus like Sally and Jillian, who that was always their dynamic. And so when Sally
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: steps up to do these things, it doesn't really Jillian's just like, yeah, well that's Sally. That's what she does. And you know, like so
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: there is there is definitely that difference there. but this relationship seemed more I think normal, I guess, of a relationship between sisters than Sally
Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate: and Jillian's. and I think that's just a testament to the fact that they had for the most part a more normal childhood. Obviously they had the trauma of like losing their father. but like Sally has worked really hard to provide stability for them and to kind of try to give them as much of a normal life as possible. and I think that shows in the fact that they do have this kind of what I see as a a kind of standard relationship for for sisters. I know that I didn't get along with my sisters f for the whole time when I was growing up. You know, we became very
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: close when I was older, but you know, as a as a young kid, we definitely were at odds a lot. So
Rachel: Right. Right.
Kate: Made sense.
Rachel: Yeah. And I I think you're right that it it's a testament to their upbringing. Like Sally is a great mom. You know, I I didn't even put it in our notes to talk about their relationship much because Sally's just a great mom. Like she just is. Like she is one of those people that is always willing to get her hands dirty. She's just very much In the weeds with everything, like quite literally, she's the one who pulls the weeds at the aunt's garden. So when she moves away, it's like
Kate: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: overgrown with weeds. and she's just so loving and caring and and makes sure that she's always taking care of everybody around her, right? And you know, she's a secretary at the school, which she gets a little frustrated because like the teachers, some of them are like down talking to her and And treating her like she's like nothing, and you know that she was running that school, you know?
Kate: it would collapse without her, I'm sure of it.
Rachel: right. but then it's perfect for her too, because then she has the summers off to spend with her girls, and like they really are her world. so I I do think that that's the reason that they are so much more like normal. They didn't have to deal with the stuff that Sally had to at age four, right?
Kate: Right. Yeah. Antonia wasn't forced into the that protective role. She
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: she stepped into it when Kylie needed her, and that like made it that much more impactful.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: but but yeah, I mean Sally did have that one blip of a year, and that year did sound really, really bad, where she was so overcome with her depression that she couldn't care for herself or her girls, but she had made sure that she had a village, right? Where like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the ants were able to step in and care for her kids when she wasn't able to. And that is still, you know, part of being a good parent, I think, is, you know, having that support system that isn't just you, because I don't care how great of a parent you are, you cannot do it a hundred percent alone. and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: So, you know, there's still that element to it of they weren't alone and
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: So she she was able to get the support that she needed at that very dark time in her life.
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually really appreciated that element of the book and seeing Sally's clearly undiagnosed depression in throughout the book, right? Like I liked seeing how she learned to cope with it and the people around her learned to cope with it. Like the ants stepped up and they raised the girls the best that they could, even if Sally wasn't loving the way that they did it. You know, they did their best.
Kate: But they did it and the girls were happy and and healthy and that's what mattered, right?
Rachel: Yeah. And then again, Sally has that episode later after and after Kylie's attack and she just spirals over what her daughters are up to. What is this thing that brought them close together? Which obviously she was right. There was something bad that happened. But, you know, rather than really just sitting down with the girls and trying to like have that conversation, she spiraled to the point that she she got herself into like her depressive state again and and Jillian had to be the one to kind of pull her out of it and and seem to recognize what it was.
Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's you know, it I appreciated that Sally, who is arguably, you know, the most stable character one of the most stable characters in this book was still s you know, a person that had her own issues and, you know, was not infallible in that way. So I did I liked the depth that we got on all of these characters.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I agree. So I do wanna, as our last relationship in the coven to touch on, I do wanna touch on the aunt-niece relationship between Gillian and Kylie and Gillian Antonia, which she has very different relationships with her two nieces, right? So,
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: Gillian and Antonia, this kind of goes back to what I was saying about Gillian being one of those people that is so used to being like the Queen Bee, essentially. And her and Antonia. butt heads because that's also Antonia's role, right? And
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: you see Jillian kind of like antagonize her a little bit, right? She's stealing her thunder, she's stealing her clothes, and she stole her crush.
Kate: Yeah, which is just brutal. because
Rachel: Ha ha.
Kate: she's she's kind of acting like Antonia is like a peer of hers instead of a child and her niece, you know?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And like, I don't know if it's a thing where she even I don't I don't know if Gillian even knew that Antonia had a crush on Ben, right? I think that's kind of
Kate: Right.
Rachel: uni up for interpretation, how awful you think Gillian is. But she might have just fallen in love with him the same way. And also it was It was Antonia's teacher. It's not like she was ever going to have a relationship with Ben. But she
Kate: Right. But Jillian could have literally whoever the fuck she wants. So but
Rachel: Right. Right.
Kate: yeah, I it it wasn't very clear. I don't know that Jillian really knew Antonia's feelings there, but I don't know. I mean, I've seen teenagers with a crush. They're not super subtle. So I
Rachel: I know.
Kate: feel like if she if she was paying attention, she probably would have noticed. But that's the other thing is that Jillian doesn't really pay that much attention
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: to other people.
Rachel: Right. Right. And then on the flip side, we have Jillian and Kylie. And Jillian openly tells Kylie that she's her favorite, which is the number one thing you're not supposed to do. Even if it's true. That's the number one thing.
Kate: huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rachel: but of course Kylie adores her. You know, she's that she's that Queen Bee that Antonia is and and someone that she wants to be and she wants to be like, and she's kind to her, unlike Antonia, right? So she really looks up to her, and it all kind of comes to a head when Jillian cuts and dyes her hair to be like hers, and Sally loses it. Gideon loses
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: it, and you can just You do see the family dynamics at play there, right?
Kate: yeah, well it it's also it's the carelessness from Jillian, right? Of like,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: yeah, maybe Kylie wanted it, but I don't think she was prepared for what it would mean for her. I think, I mean, we saw Kylie kind of lose it after that because she was so overwhelmed with the attention that she got after her little makeover.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: And so, you know, she was not prepared and she didn't really know what she was signing up for there. But then, yeah, not recognizing how. much of an overreach it was for her to do that when again Kylie was only thirteen, like newly thirteen at the time. I mean,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I don't know. I know like dyeing hair is not that big of a deal now, but I remember when I was younger, my mom would not let me dye my hair until I was older. And I don't know, like just things like that that are like, you should probably check with her mom first. And
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Not to mention the fact that this seemed to go beyond just the hair and, you know, it was
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: just again, she was thinking that she was doing something great but not really thinking it through.
Rachel: Yeah. Right, I think we should spend some time talking about the romantic relationships.
Kate: I agree.
Rachel: So first we have Sally and Michael, which insta love for both of them on all accounts seems like just a beautiful love story and and kind of perfect marriage until, you know, it wasn't. Well, it was always a perfect marriage. It just
Kate: Until he gets smooshed.
Rachel: until it was over.
Kate: Yeah. There is a bit of of a darkness there though, because it is implied that the aunts might have like kind of conjured Michael for Sally or, you know, like influenced that relationship in a way. which if true Is pretty dark because Sally again was like pretty adamant that she was not interested in love at all. And even though she did
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: have a lot of happy years with Michael, to then have the potential of like, were her feelings even her own? Or, you know,
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: like if it wasn't started organically, what does that actually mean? So again, we're t we talked about overreaches. This that would
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: be a insane overreach. you know, so I again we we don't get any like big details about that, but that was kind of like a dark cloud that was put over that relationship beyond just, you know, the untimely death of it.
Rachel: Yeah, we don't know for sure and we don't get confirmation, but there were hints because the ants were trying to like set her up with like all the college guys in town and stuff, like definitely little hints that maybe they had played a hand in that. Then there's Sally and Gary, again, installed for both of them. And I don't think
Kate: A against their better judgment for both of them.
Rachel: Yeah. Things turned out pretty good. Do you not think so?
Kate: I mean no, it did. It did. but he did have to like break the law for her and you know, she
Rachel: Okay, well, the law was not black and white in this situation.
Kate: No, I I believe that Jimmy one hundred percent got what he deserved. I think he deserved a worse death than, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: whatever non painful thing that he ended up getting. But you know, it's just that ultimately they were it was a conflict of interest.
Rachel: Sure. But you know, we have a flawed justice system.
Kate: for sure. For sure.
Rachel: And I'm happy that a cop did what I believe is the right thing in this situation.
Kate: finally.
Rachel: Ha ha Alright, and Jillian and Jimmy are villain, He was an actual piece of shit abuser. And Jillian has a line where she reflects on his drinking habits and that she never knows if that he will want to beat her or fuck her when he has a certain look in his eye. Like that tells you everything that
Kate: So dark.
Rachel: you need to know about this man.
Kate: Yeah, sounds terrifying. and I am lucky enough to have not been in an abusive relationship before, but that it it just sounds like when she described it that way of like how could you ever be at peace ever?
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. No sh I mean she couldn't. She was always like living she was always nervous about how he was going to act and who he was gonna be that day. And there's a reason that she was poisoning him. There's a reason he she was
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: drugging him, you know?
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: But that being said, despite the fact that he is clearly pure evil, she just can't quit him. And like many abusers, he is charming and knows how to win women back over and over and over again. Jillian mentions how he had the ability to make you feel like the only person in the universe. And then, which, you know, we'll get into all the magic in this book, but that is something that we even see in the magical elements of the lilacs that he's buried beneath, put out this like, scent that draws all these women in and it's like, yeah, that's who he was.
Kate: Yeah. But then they had the this very threatening aura about them. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate: again, it's yeah, that that's an interesting parallel that I d I didn't put together of like the lilacs. 'Cause I I was thinking in my mind about how it was odd that, you know, he's this like threatening force, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the the lilacs bloom and they're like so beautiful and abundant and I'm like, well that seems Like it's obviously unnatural and concerning in that way, but s doesn't seem to be like harmful. But the way that you described it, that makes a lot more sense than that parallel. that's interesting.
Rachel: Yeah, 'cause they were like flocking to the yard and like obsessed with these lilacs. Like it was his it was Essence O Jimmy.
Kate: Ryan. and they also they would like make they would like make animals forget what they were doing or like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: things like that. So like that kind of like they would get into your brain the scent
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and like make you forget your reason.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: shit. That's good. That's so good. my god. It's
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. No, the lilacs are super creepy. Yeah. He was like possessing the the garden.
Kate: Yeah. Just
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like he possessed Jillian. damn.
Rachel: In the movie. In the movie.
Kate: No, like possessed, like she she lost her reasoning, you know, she lost her logic, you know, she because she she knew in
Rachel: right. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.
Kate: her mind, she knew like this is not a good man. I should not be with him, I should get out. But
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: he was clouding her judgment, and she just like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: couldn't, you know, couldn't get herself to to make the move. She was like addicted to him in in an odd way. So yeah, that's I like that. I like that.
Rachel: Yeah. all right, and then Jillian sort of happily ever maybe Jillian and Ben. Yeah
Kate: Happily ever for now. For however long the curse allows it to be. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: so Ben is an interesting guy. So it's like he's the teacher, right? The science teacher. And we see him instantly fall in love with Jillian. She kind
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of resists it at first. She's intrigued from the beginning, but she doesn't think that she wants to be in a relationship after the mess. That was Jimmy.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: But, you know, she she comes around to it. And I think that some of the ways that they described Ben in this book also gave me this inkling that like maybe he has a little bit of magical blood in his line as well. Because they talked a lot about how. like Jillian's attraction kind of worked where all these men just instantly fell in love with her. And
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they it seems like Ben kind of has a similar aura about him because they talk about how he is like the entire town, all the women are obsessed with him and they are all in love with him and they like know his schedule and they have his phone number memorized to the point where when somebody asks for their number, they say his instead. And like, so it like it seems like he kind of has a spell on the women in the town the way
Rachel: That's a good point.
Kate: that Jillian has a spell on the men.
Rachel: Hmm.
Kate: There's also the fact that he is a magician with a pet rabbit, right? So like I know that he's like, you know, he does magic tricks in the more like traditional sense of like,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, fake illusions, but it's a little on the nose. Right. So like maybe he's drawn to that line of work because he like feels it in his bones a little bit. 'cause
Rachel: just cracking up at this you're probably on to something, but I'm cracking up at the idea that this guy who's still what is it called when you're like still tripping from acid like years later? Like flashbacks? Is it flashbacks?
Kate: I don't I don't know.
Rachel: I mean they describe the fact that he gets like stuck looking at like ceiling lights or something because of these past acid trips that he had. And it's like, okay, this guy who can't stop staring at the freaking fan and like doing card tricks has magic. Like he probably thinks he does have magic.
Kate: Well, there i it's also implied, you know, that there's different levels of magical ability, right? Like even
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: between the Owens women, they don't all have the same abilities, they don't all seem to have the same kind of strength of magic. So I I'm just saying in the Massachusetts area, it seems like there could be a possibility that he's got some magic in his blood somewhere along the line. And I'll give you a few more examples. Okay. One being when he was so obsessed and consumed by thoughts of Jillian that he was just like accidentally doing magic tricks wherever he went.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: you know, and it's like that accidental piece
Rachel: That's a good sign.
Kate: of it is is interesting because I'm sure that if you practice a magic trick a million times, you might be able to do it in your sleep, but it still seems like a very like intentional thing. And so to just be like not even noticing there they they said that he would like be like pulling the tablecloths off of every table when he passed it in a restaurant and like setting boiled eggs spinning and I don't know, just like weird little things that I was like, okay, is he doing that? with illusion or is he
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: doing, you know, I don't know. And then there's the bunny.
Rachel: No, that's a good point. That's a good point.
Kate: There's this rabbit buddy, who he has trained to turn on lamps, drink water out of a glass by holding it between his paws,
Rachel: That's cute.
Kate: and he's litter trained, among other things, like like trained to do, you know, perform in these different magic tricks that he has as well.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: So I don't know, just like the whole combination of things. Again, like everything involving magic in this book. you have to do a lot of your own interpretation, but I just have a I have an inkling.
Rachel: I think I was literally rolling my eyes at him so much that I didn't pick up on any of
Kate: Ha ha.
Rachel: that. I was like, my god, this guy's doing freaking card tricks. Like I just can't He's like, Phil Dunfee.
Kate: You don't think magic tricks are hot?
Rachel: I will say the one thing that I picked up on that I thought was a little creepy or questionable that I do want to touch on briefly, because I don't think that he was a creep or questionable, but I didn't like this interaction. So when Jillian and Ben had sex for the first time, this was when she was still like trying to push him off. Like she she wanted him and she liked him, but she didn't want to put herself, you know. In the same position that she'd been in for all these past terrible relationships, she was fully bought in on the curse, right? So she just was like, I don't know that I'm I'm open to love again. But she just can't seem to quit him. Like she's still like interested in him. And the first time that they have sex, they're like hooking up. And we, as the reader, know her mental state where she's planning to say no. And there's also a line that we get as a reader. Where it says that Ben Fry is not going to take no for an answer that night, which does not sound like Ben Fry in the rest of the book. So it's very strange that
Kate: Right.
Rachel: we get that line. And I don't think that he forces himself on her. I don't think he even does anything questionable, but we do just see that he's touching her in every way that she likes. And she gets so into it that she goes all the way with him. And I don't know, it just felt a little icky. And I don't know if this is just a result of this book being written in the nineties and enthusiastic consent was not really a thing yet. But I didn't love that scene. And I I just felt that I would be remiss if I didn't point it out.
Kate: Yeah, no, I agree. That that line in particular, the like not taking no for an answer, because of course, no means no.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but yeah, in the nineties, I don't know if that was as much of a like problematic phrase as it is
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: now of like maybe it just meant that he was like very determined to show her that he loved her. I don't know, but
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: yeah, I'm with you. It doesn't feel great reading it, you know, now.
Rachel: In in the light of twenty twenty six
Kate: yeah. and like you said, I mean, the wrestler relationship does seem to be pretty positive and safe and consenting.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: and they do explore bondage together, which I found like was interesting because after Jillian's experience with Jimmy, who was very controlling and abusive, especially in their sex life. it, you know, it it kind of shows how like much she trusts him and loves him and is willing to kind of give up that control and explore that thing that she's interested in in this like safer relationship. but there's a point, I think it's it might even be be around the the same scene that you were talking about, but where Ben is thinking about how obsessed he is with Jillian and how he wants to like tie her up with silk ribbons so that she can't leave. Which
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate: is another pretty problematic thing that he's thinking. with all the other context that we have about Ben, he doesn't
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: seem to be a problematic character. but yeah, I didn't I just it's one of those things where like I just don't really want to be in a straight man's head that much. so I think if we hadn't gotten his thoughts in some of these scenes I might have like felt less icky about it, but
Rachel: I agree with you because I there's nothing I love more than when we get the MMC's POV in our romanticy books.
Kate: I mean I guess I I have enjoyed some of those, but I don't know, in general I just don't really relate, you know.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. I hear you. All right. Why don't we touch on our little our little teenagers? They're there not not too much to say there, but there are some some relationships happening.
Kate: Yeah, so we have Antonia and Scott, who again, it felt kind of like insta love.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but it also was, I think, pretty wholesome because after all of the attention and like boys who were obsessed with Antonia, Scott seemed to be like really a like not her usual type. And,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, he's a scholar and he's like smart and and introspective and, you know, just more thoughtful, I guess, than the other boys that, you know, seemed to be more the norm for her. So I did I liked that that's who she was with at the end of the book, because I think that showed some growth for her as well.
Rachel: I agree, but I was on the edge of my seat convinced he was gonna die the whole book, so I don't feel great about him for
Kate: Well, that's that's how they live their entire lives, Rachel. That's how these poor women have to live every day of their life.
Rachel: I know, I know, I know. But he's like that good kind of like that very smart, accomplished, just good guy that you're like, Ugh, you don't seem long for this world.
Kate: He was also a delivery boy, right? So he would have like plenty of opportunity to get into a horrific car crash or something.
Rachel: Yeah, or like the ice cream would like tip over on him. I don't know, as he's delivering it.
Kate: Y you were convinced that Scott was gonna drown in ice cream?
Rachel: Honestly, if
Kate: huh.
Rachel: when it happens, I hope that's how I go. At the ripe old age of a hundred and ten, I'd like to drown in ice cream.
Kate: You know, I mean, shoot the stars.
Rachel: Mm. And then we have Kylie and Gideon, which seems to be friends to potentially more. They definitely seem like they're both aware that they have feelings for one another, that they're sort of choosing to step over that line. But they're both very young. They're thirteen. so we really haven't seen it, haven't explored it much, but potentially in future books. I don't know.
Kate: Yeah. I kind of appreciated that they didn't like explicitly have Kylie in a relationship at the end of the book because I do I mean it was like an interesting relationship that she had with Gideon.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and like to your point, they did kind of imply that maybe it was it was going in that direction. But I don't know. I liked exploring some relationships that weren't always explicitly romantic.
Rachel: I agree. I felt very realistic. Like being 13
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: and having a best friend that's a boy and realizing that you're in love with him, that's very realistic, age appropriate, and it again just goes to like this book being the full experience of womanhood, you know?
Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, Gideon was also a pretty believable thirteen year old boy, because there were points where I liked him and then other points where he was insufferable. So it you know, I I thought that he was
Rachel: No one besides Kylie seemed to like him. Isn't that there I think there's a line that's like Kylie's
Kate: That's true.
Rachel: the only one who likes him.
Kate: yeah, I mean, like it's described as like they're kind of each other's only friends. But Kylie,
Rachel: Uh-huh.
Kate: as, you know, was evidenced by the end of the book when she was like popular and beautiful and whatever, but like she had the potential to make other friends even before her you know, outward transformation. But it didn't seem like Gideon wa had any any luck there. And wasn't really
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: interested in being friends with anybody else either.
Rachel: Yeah. Alright. Kate, it's time for my favorite part. Let's take a look at the magic.
Kate: Ooh, yes, please. So we've got a lot of different, again, references to magic. A lot of it is up for interpretation on exactly how
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: it kind of works or what the influence really is. But some of the more obvious references that we have are the auras that
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: Particularly Kylie is able to see, like she physically sees these auras. Like I said about the lilac bushes, she sees this very ominous, dark aura around these gorgeous plants. and she also sees, you know, auras around people, and it leads her to be very attuned to like their emotions and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: how they're they're feeling and and things like that. We also you already mentioned Gillian and her tarot cards. So that one was really up for interpretation of like, is this just a gimmick for her to get some money or is there some real magic going on there?
Rachel: huh.
Kate: and then there was Jillian's hair not growing back after her she cut it.
Rachel: Which what is up with that? Because they said that this woman came up to her out of nowhere and offered her like $2,000 or something like that to buy her hair so that she could have it turn into a wig. And this is just like something out of a fairy tale that it never grew back. Like, was this woman some kind of like a hag and this was a curse? Or is it something somehow related to the Owens family? And is that why Sally was so mad about Kylie's hair? Like sh was she scared that Kylie's hair was never gonna grow back?
Kate: I that's a good point. I wasn't thinking
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: about that. Cause yeah, I'm like, yeah, I get look, my mom probably would have been pretty upset if I was 13 and came in the room with like stark blonde hair chopped off and you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but it's still just hair, like it'll grow back, assuming. But yeah, I forgot that they had that experience where Jillian's hair didn't grow back. So yeah, maybe she was worried about that.
Rachel: Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I think her hair does grow back. They definitely talk about her hair growing and her roots showing. So I'm I'm assuming that Kylie's
Kate: Right, yeah. So
Rachel: not affected by whatever happened to Jillian.
Kate: Yeah, Ky Kylie's hair is fine. It grows out. They say that it like when it grows out, it actually looks almost better than it did initially because
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: she's just like naturally so gorgeous that of course she doesn't have unblended roots when her dye job blows like her dye job grows out.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. But I do wanna know about this lady that bought Jillian's hair because I feel like maybe she's a hag.
Kate: Yes. Yeah, was she is she like some vindictive witch that tricked Jillian into selling something that was more precious than she thought it was?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it very much like Jillian when Sally was upset about it, Gillian's like, it's just hair, it'll grow back. And it's just Gillian being careless and not thinking through all the possible scenarios. Now, would anybody think through that scenario? Probably not, but it was just a typical Jillian response.
Kate: I mean yeah, I certainly would never like, you know, I got a haircut last week. I have every expectation that it's going to grow back out.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: You know, so I get but they don't live in the same reality as everybody else. So
Rachel: Right.
Kate: another common magical theme in the book was the animals. So there's a lot of different instances of animals, and it's always in the context of something weird going on. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you have like we mentioned before, we have the Death Watch Beetle, which is a terrifying omen that, you know, when it chirps, it means that death is coming to somebody in the household. And the person who is destined to die can't hear the chirping, but everybody else in the house can hear it and it's like unstoppable. You can't like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you can't avoid this fate once it starts. which again
Rachel: It's freaking terrifying.
Kate: 'cause it's like weeks. It's like weeks leading up to the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: death. Just imagine living in that hell.
Rachel: Well, and the movie did such a good job of like showing how terrifying that is. Cause they show Sally pulling up all of the floorboards of the house and it's like, yeah, it literally
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: drives you freaking insane. Can you imagine like just sounds like that in general? Like when you hear like a cricket, that you're just like, where is this cricket? But then add that fear on top of it.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So that that's a creepy little bug. and it again, that was like the one thing that was pretty set in stone.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Like every every mention of it was like, yeah, this is not something that you can find a way to escape. they also they're witches, so they have cats. at least the ants do. They have a few cats. in their their home that I imagine are like familiars or something like that. But there's a point where the cats follow Sally to school and it ends up being one of the scenarios that gets the town convinced that they're witches because the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: cats follow Sally to school. they won't go away no matter who is trying to, you know, shoe them and get them out of the room. at one point some little snot-nosed shit in her class lights one of their tails on fire, which is so fucked up. And obviously
Rachel: Rude.
Kate: Sally is really upset about it and she's angry and in her anger she like yells something at him like, you know, I hope that you get hurt or, you know, like whatever
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: she's Just an angry kid who's trying to protect her cats. And then, you know, at that moment a like a ceiling tile falls on this kid and he gets hurt. And it's again one of those things where you're like,
Rachel: Oops.
Kate: okay, did Sally just curse this kid unintentionally or not? And do
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like, did she cause that ceiling tile to fall? Or was it just an unlucky coincidence? You know, again, not explicitly confirmed in any way, but it did, you know. lead to all of the students calling Sally a witch. So
Rachel: Ha
Kate: the animals are also drawn to Jillian and Ben's love, which I felt
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like was a very interesting little tidbit where
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: it was like all kinds of different animals, right?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was like the cats were following them, the dogs were following them. There's a very specific scene when there I guess Ben would go down by like the water to run, and Jillian would go and time him, and she would sit up on these rocks, and he would have to like help her tiptoe over all of the toads that would surround her. Yeah, I know. That was gross.
Kate: All right. Let's talk about the toads. Because they like swarmed the town, right? And i they
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: sounded so gross that like they were described as like they would cover the road and so people would like intentionally try to like swerve and like hit them and just sounded disgusting. but also there's the toad that dug up Jimmy's ring and led to some you know, complication in their
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: issue with Gary initially. so yeah, again, that toad, I don't think it was a coincidence that he got Jimmy's ring. you know, there's there's something magical and fishy going on there. I don't think that the toads
Rachel: Reptilian?
Kate: are a good yeah. Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Kate: Or amph amphibian. I don't know what the toads are, but
Rachel: Amphibian. I guess it would be amphibian, yeah. There's something amphibian going on here.
Kate: But either way another animal was the yearly sparrow. So this was a bird that every Midsummer's Eve would fly into the ant's house. And if it circled three times, then they knew that they were in for a bad year, basically.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and so that was like an omen, but it also was something that triggered for Sally. like Sally at one point was convinced that she was. Gonna become a spinster like her her aunts and was gonna just have the same thing every year, over and over again, her life was never really gonna change. And then one year the sparrow doesn't fly into the house, and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Sally's like, shit, I guess something might be changing. And then she meets Michael, and it's like, you know, that whole thing. So
Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate: animals seem to be omens.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: and then the last mention that I'll I'll give is Again, Ben's rabbit buddy The unnatural ability to be trained.
Rachel: It seems like nature is where we're really seeing a lot of the magical elements where we're like, hmm, that's not how it normally works. So you're again just sort of hinting about whether or not it's magic or whether or not Buddy is just, you know, a special rabbit. But
Kate: Just just very well trained.
Rachel: Yeah, and we see it in the plants as well, right? Like with Maria in her garden, they the townsfolk don't trust her because she's got this like blooming garden. and is it magic or does she just have a green thumb, right?
Kate: Mm-hmm. And you have the rose bushes at the aunt's house that get larger and healthier when Michael is living there. Like they can pick up on the vibes.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you have the lilacs like that we already talked about that bloom like crazy out of season and are like hypnotizing people. And then you also have the onions from the garden that are said to be the best cure for dog bites and toothaches. And from the Owens garden, like I actually believe that. You know?
Rachel: Right. No, that had to be magic. Like again, we don't know for sure, but it had to be magic because they say that it's the same onion plants that Maria had planted, I think. Or there were like plants for that Maria planted that are still showing up in this garden.
Kate: Right.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, them them's some magic onions.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: And then some other magical things here. again, Kylie seems to be like one of the stronger magical forces in this family at this point. I mean, again, we assume that the ants are also pretty powerful, but we don't get as much information about them. But Kylie, we talked about she can see the auras, she is very attuned to people's emotions and everything. she could see Jimmy's ghost in the garden, like
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: physically see his ghost. and she's the only one that could do that. And she can also kind of sense the future. So there's a point where, you know, they're supposed to be about to travel to the aunt's house, and Kylie is just like, it's not gonna happen. Like, she just knew that their plans were gonna change and that something else was gonna happen. It was gonna prevent them from going to the aunt's house. And so they describe it as her having the sight.
Rachel: Well, Kate, I want you to know that I too have the site.
Kate: What can you see, Rachel?
Rachel: Okay, this vacation thing happened to me. So when I
Kate: Ha ha ha ha.
Rachel: I swear this exact same thing happened to me with vacation. So when I was in college, I studied abroad in Scotland. And you know how it is when you study abroad, you can get like very cheap tickets from one country in Europe to another. And I was supposed
Kate: It was amazing.
Rachel: it was amazing. Like I had no money. I
Kate: I wish we had it.
Rachel: had no money. I spent all of my money. I had like $40 a week. That was my budget. And I was literally eating like oatmeal and then I would get like the super cheap beers through like the student discounts at
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: the local pubs and I would spend all my money on these cheap tickets around Europe and then like go to other countries. So I'd saved up because this one was a little bit more pricey. It was like, I don't know, a $30 ticket to Spain. And I was gonna go
Kate: Splurge.
Rachel: And I was gonna go, you know, to Barcelona and Palma de Majorca. And it was gonna be so much fun, like a spring break, which I never did in college. Well, as it turned out, I wasn't ever going to do this in college because I was not packing. I was not packing. My roommate who was going with me was like, Rachel, you need to pack. I'm like, I don't know. Like, I'm not stressed about it. And I was like, I just don't know if this is happening. She's well, it's not gonna happen for you. You're gonna miss this flight if you don't. Do your laundry right now and pack. And I'm like, I just don't think this trip is happening. Well, Kate. The volcano in Iceland blew and everybody was stranded
Kate: I remember that.
Rachel: around Europe. Like my friends that had already taken flights places had to like figure out a system of trains to get back to freaking Scotland. I did not have this problem. I was stuck in Scotland, which is fine. I would choose to be stuck in Scotland every day of the week. But I'm just saying, I think I had the sight in that
Kate: I mean,
Rachel: moment.
Kate: you can you can I I believe it, you know, there are some things that can't really be explained. My mom is convinced Hi mom, I know she's listening. She is convinced that she has some kind of aura that affects electronics around her. and I, you know, don't know how accurate that might be. but I have actually witnessed it a few times. we had this old minivan, and when she would go to drive it or even just like get near it, like the lights would start flashing. the like garage door
Rachel: That's crazy.
Kate: opener would also like not work for her a lot of times, and it would only happen to her. And she said that her mom had the same thing where like she couldn't ever wear watches because watches didn't work around her like like they would just stop working. So
Rachel: That's crazy. Cause I was gonna say most boomers
Kate: I don't know.
Rachel: have the problem where technology doesn't work around them.
Kate: yeah, no. I mean, listen, there's I I help her with her her electronics sometimes too, but no, this is specifically like an electrical like issue thing. So I don't know. I think I think every woman has a little witch in her and I think that's beautiful.
Rachel: I think that is beautiful. If you're listening,
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: drop in the comments what your witchy power is that you're convinced is just something a little something a little special. so to round out our list of magical moments in the book, of course we have to talk about the ants, right? They come into town to save the day because they know magic. and we know from earlier in the book, magic is their job. That is the only way that we see them making money. Turning that light on that's been on the Back porch of the Owens house since the sixteen hundreds, And every night women from the town come to ask for help in love, right? it seems like they specialize in love spells specifically, although I don't know that that's the only thing that they do. and we see we see that it doesn't always go well. Ha ha ha
Kate: No, and I will say they they do seem to be like pretty upfront about it. They tell women like, you know, you gotta be careful with this. Like we're gonna do what you're asking, but be sure.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: They had they had no shortage of of customers, regardless of what I'm sure were a lot of women in town that were not super happy with the results.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: it didn't seem to slow down their business.
Rachel: Yeah, and there's that one woman in particular that we see throughout the series, and we see the detrimental effects of that love spell. So she's the one who said,
Kate: Like over time, yeah.
Rachel: Yes, she was the one who wanted this man who was married, and, you know, she wanted him to love her. And in the book, I don't remember if we get the exact language in the book. In the movie, we watch her say, I want him to love me so much he can't stand it. And I don't know that we even see the effects of it in the movie. In the book, we see the effects, and he is driving her nuts. Like he is literally just constantly following her around, will not leave her alone. You know, she talks about how like all he wants to do is fuck.
Kate: Mm-hmm. She's like, I'm so goddamn tired.
Rachel: Yeah, and yeah, I think it's I think it's something that yeah,
Kate: Yeah, be careful what you wish for.
Rachel: you care for what you wish for and it's something that we see in a lot of fantasy books that like love spells are never a good idea. You don't want to force anybody to love you ever.
Kate: No, because then it doesn't like love feels good when it comes naturally.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: You know, that's the whole thing about it.
Rachel: Right.
Kate: So I got the feeling that not only were they helping women with love, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they also mentioned that some of the women that were coming to their door were ones that had maybe gotten pregnant when they didn't want to. And
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: So it seems like the ants were also helping women with these unwanted pregnancies. and there's the the line in particular was when a woman in town quarreled with her lover, when she found herself pregnant by someone who wasn't her husband,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: or discovered that the man she'd married was unfaithful as a hound, they'd be at the Owen's back door. So like there were like when they talked about desperate women. Yes, love was a big part of it, but there was also like sounds like maybe they some of them were seeking revenge. Some
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: of them were seeking help with their pregnancies, and we know what
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that usually includes. And you know, somebody who just in general is not happy with a man.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I think that we see this very often with witches or people who are believed to be witches throughout history
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: and in our fantasy books, but certainly in real life, women who, as we said, don't fit the normal standards, but also maybe women that are just doing something to support other women, women who know science.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: And are literally just doing something that takes the power away from men and gives it to the women to have control over their own lives. So, you know, Aunt Frances and Aunt Jet, they're just OG feminists, really.
Kate: 100%. Yeah, like you
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: said, I love what you said about just giving women more control over their lives,
Rachel: Yeah, but I specifically saying that I think that they are pro choice. And yeah,
Kate: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Rachel: is it always a spell or is it just knowing science? You know what I mean? Like they might have just
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: known the right herbs from their garden to solve a problem.
Kate: Right. Yeah. No, that that piece of it does just seem like they're they're like botanists as well and
Rachel: Right.
Kate: are just able to help women with all kinds of of issues like that. But yeah, so it it is, it's a combination of things. Some
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of them were overt spells like the love spells.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and then yeah, some of it was just helping women in need.
Rachel: well I think that covers most of the magic that we're seeing in the book. So why don't we spend some time chatting about how the book differs from the movie? And generally the overall story is pretty consistent. The characters are consistent, but there are some big differences. so Sally's love spells. In the movie, both of Sally's love interests are tied to a love spell. Her first love, Michael, as we said in the book, it was slightly implied that the ants might have conjured him. In the movie, that definitely happened. So he kind of comes out of nowhere. It's insta-love for both of them. so when he dies, Sally shows up at the aunt's house and blames the curse, saying it was the curse, wasn't it? And they reveal that they cast a spell to help her find him. And this yes,
Kate: So it was kind of both.
Rachel: so it's kind of both, but this is the catalyst that makes Sally hate magic. So it explains why Sally is not practicing. Whereas we don't get that in the book. We don't get a reason that she's not practicing magic. And she says that her children will never be raised at it. So this is really sort of the start of the overall plot of the story, right? then there's also the true love spell, Amas Veritas. So as a child in the movie, Sally sees that woman, casts that love spell, as we saw, and she's very put off by it. Jillian's like, I can't wait to fall in love. Sally's Disgusted by it because she had to kill a bird as part of the spell. And in the book, Sally does become a vegetarian because of that scene. But to avoid love and the challenges that come with it in the movie, young Sally casts this spell for true love and attempts to summon a man who doesn't exist. So she tries to make someone that couldn't possibly exist. He has two different colored eyes, his favorite shape is a star, he can flip pancakes. I feel like she needed to maybe read some I mean she was a child, so it makes sense that she hadn't yet, but like maybe she needed to read some monster romances because I don't think that she went far enough.
Kate: No, she definitely didn't. It was it was the it was a child's version of a a an impossible man.
Rachel: Yes. Yeah. so as it turns out, she conjured Gary. Another big plot point difference is that Jillian spends the book thinking she accidentally killed Jimmy by microdosing him with the ant's nightshade. And when the ants arrive in town to help solve the Jimmy problem, they're like, that was not even enough to kill a dog. Like, you did not kill him. He died from some other. Cause, right? So she feels this immense guilt, the whole book, and it's absolved at the end of it, right? Whereas in the movie, Sally kills Jimmy explicitly twice. And it was Sally
Kate: Yes.
Rachel: doing exactly what Sally does, taking care of her sister. But there's no sort of gray area here. It was in her sister's defense, but it was twice that she killed him.
Kate: Yeah, no, there w there was no if, ands or buts about that. She poisoned him and then she hit him with a frying pan. So
Rachel: Yeah. Also in the movie, we see that Jillian becomes actually possessed by Jimmy. I know we kind of said Jillian was possessed by him as a reference to like how much she loved him and couldn't get away from him, but she we she's actually possessed by him in the movie. And yeah, his actual ghost.
Kate: Like his actual ghost is inside of her body. Like they had to like basically perform an exorcism. So
Rachel: Yes. And then Jimmy is ultimately banished when Sally activates the phone list for the women in town and they all gather to do an exorcism. Whereas in the book, the ants just kind of do their potion and that solves it.
Kate: Mm-hmm. There was also that funny moment like during the the exorcism of Jimmy's ghost in the movie where Gary comes in and he's got his like like detective's badge or whatever it is and
Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Kate: like like Jimmy grabs it and it burns him and I was like, what in the copaganda is this? But it was a little weird.
Rachel: I know, wasn't that weird? Like I didn't know if it was because it was silver or because
Kate: I forget if if Gary said it or Sally said it, but they were having a discussion and saying that the badge has the power that you think that it has.
Rachel: So hm, that's kind of goofy.
Kate: Yeah, so it was it was basically just like like it I think they were thinking about it like metaphorically of
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, the badge has power because you believe that it does. you
Rachel: Interesting.
Kate: know, in the sense of like how cops have power or how people like respond to a badge.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: But then it ended up being like a physical power when it came to Jimmy. So that part was a little goofy, I think.
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. I hope that they don't do that in the new movie.
Kate: Yeah, I hope Gary becomes like a a farmer or something instead of a cop once he and Sally are together.
Rachel: I mean, I would like to see him say that the justice system is flawed and I don't want to be a part of it anymore.
Kate: Maybe he'll continue to take it down from the inside and and help women like Sally who are in a b in a jam.
Rachel: Good point. Good point.
Kate: one of the biggest things for me that stood out between the movie and the book was that the magic is so much more obvious in the movie. Like they
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: are clearly witches, they have the spell book, they like Sally is like flipping through the spell book to try to find a solution when Michael dies, and like like they're they're practicing spells as kids in like the kitchen in the movie, and I don't know, it's just much more overt that way.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: And like we've been talking about this whole time, the magic in the book is very subtle. There's some things that are more overt than others, but for the most part, it's just kind of implied, and you can come to your own conclusions about where the influence is coming from magic versus something else. and so I kind of just I loved that subtlety
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in the book. I thought it was an interesting take on a book about witches because a lot of times again we do see it in a much more obvious way, like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they presented it in the movie, but the beauty of this book was the the subtlety of it.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. There were also a few sort of small differences in in the movie from the book. So the setting, Sally stays at the aunt's house on Magnolia Street, basically the entire movie, apart from when she's married to Michael. so the most of the book takes place at their house. And as such, Jimmy is buried under the rose bushes at the aunt's house, and that's sort of like a famous thing from the movie. But in the book, he's buried underneath the lilac bushes. So I thought that was interesting that
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: they changed the flowers. Jillian overtly does magic throughout the movie, including like little tricks on the teachers and parents that bully Sally, which I enjoyed.
Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. At one point she tries to like poison Gary when
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: he comes over. Like when she's still trying to get them out of this jam of of being blamed for Jimmy's death. she like works with the the girls, her nieces to create like a poison drink for Gary for him to drink. And then the girls take it and they Right, right. It's true.
Rachel: Well, it's just to make it him go away. It was just to make him go away. It wasn't poison, yeah.
Kate: Well, so it yeah, it was it was something they brewed a potion to get rid of Gary
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: and and the girls ended up like throwing it into the ocean or something, you know. So
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: it I did I did kind of like some of the like more whimsical parts of it. At
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: one point we also saw Sally like stirring her tea, you know, with with her finger, you know, by magic, which I know is one of the things that you love.
Rachel: That is my favorite magical thing ever when the teacup stirs itself.
Kate: Yeah, that that whimsy. So I I
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: will say the book was v very dark compared to the movie in that way. The movie had some darkness to it. You know, you still saw like parts of the abusive relationship with Jimmy and what a piece of shit he was and all that. But there was also a lot of whimsy to it, which was nice.
Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. And I I wonder if they did that intentionally to broaden the audience, because in the nineties there were a lot of like witchy movies happening. That that's when The Coven came out, which was a much darker witchy movie. so I'm wondering if they and you know, I guess the Heathers, well, it's not really witchy. But again, it could be a to I I do think that it was probably to broaden the audience a little bit more, is what I'm assuming.
Kate: Right. Yeah, I feel like the book was was bordering more on like rated R territory. the movie is s solidly P G thirteen.
Rachel: Yeah, alright, then we have the Midnight Margaritas scene. So this is a beloved scene that doesn't happen in the books. That being said, they do have margaritas in the books. So in the books, Gillian makes margaritas to pull Sally out of her depressive state after Kylie's attack. So there are margaritas in the book and they drank them in the garden, but they don't have that midnight margarita scene with the ants that we all love.
Kate: That is such a fun scene in the movie that I love because it also it comes with the that f fun song that gets stuck
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in your head.
Rachel: another difference in the movie versus the book that I think we need to touch on so that we're not all very confused on September eleventh is that they switched Kylie Ann Antonia in the movie. So
Kate: They did. And I don't I why did they do that?
Rachel: I don't know. I don't know the reason for it.
Kate: It didn't feel necessary.
Rachel: The only thing that I could think is that they wanted those actresses. So Antonia is played by Evan Rachel Wood, and Kylie is they could have just switched
Kate: Yeah, so that that's the thing. It's they they changed their physical appearances and their ages. So Kylie is the redhead in the movie and she's
Rachel: Yes. Yeah.
Kate: the older one. The only thing that I was thinking of a reason for is because Kylie is more magical, like she's more powerful with her magic. So maybe in they were thinking in the movie that it would make more sense for that to be coming from the older daughter.
Rachel: Well, what I was thinking was that they wanted that actress to be the more central part. So that's why they had they kept Kylie as being the one who could see the auras, right? And
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: that's I'm assuming that's why they sw swapped Whereas like the younger sister was just like very cute and had these cute little moments, but she wasn't the one that saw Jimmy. Right.
Kate: Right. But yeah, it it it seemed like a a
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: bit of an odd choice. But also the fact that in the movie they don't age the same way. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in in the movie, there's still young girls at the end. versus in the book, they go from being very young to, you know, being teenagers. And I mean, I forget exactly how old Antonia is by the end, but you know, she's dating a guy at Harvard and you know, so like yeah.
Rachel: I think she's seventeen. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: So so yeah, so that that age progression, which I understand is is harder to do in a movie, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that that time jump didn't really happen.
Rachel: Yeah. to add?
Kate: So again, I I I've always loved the movie.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I only read the book for the first time, like for this purpose.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I loved the book too, I will say. I love its take on a story about witches. but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the movie, you know, they're very different and there's some things that again are maybe a little bit goofy, but it will always have a special place in my heart. it's it's just one of those ones. I enjoy watching it every year.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I think the cast is great. I love Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman and I mean the the vibes are immaculate in the movie. The music is great. Like
Rachel: Yes. Yes. I know. I love it. I watch it every year at least once. I love it. It's it just puts you in a good
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: mood. It is the perfect like end of summer going into spooky season movie. Like it's just perfect,
Kate: Yes, yes.
Rachel: perfect timing to watch right now. If you haven't yet, definitely recommend that you watch it soon. well, this brings us to the end of our practical magic episode. And we want to hear from you. Do you have a preference over the book or the movie? Any differences or details you wish we would have discussed? we can only squeeze so much into one episode, so certainly certainly
Kate: Yeah, we tried, but
Rachel: tried, but there's a lot to unpack. I mean, that is one thing about Alice Hoffman's writing. She knows how to pack a punch into one sentence. She just stuffs so much information.
Kate: yeah.
Rachel: I mean it's it's very interesting and written so beautifully, but there's so much to cover. so yeah, drop us a comment or a message with your thoughts.
Kate: And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow us on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review if you can, because we're still a new podcast and your reviews, likes, and follows go a long way to helping us grow.
Rachel: All right, join us next week as we get to know the ants better. That's right, we're joining Jet, Franny, and their brother Vincent in nineteen sixties Manhattan in The Rules of Magic. See you next week.
Kate: Bye.
Kate: And I'm Kate, lover of all things dark and spicy.
Rachel: And today is the start of our read-along coverage of the Practical Magic series by Alice Hoffman in the lead up to the movie sequel coming out on September 11th. Each week we'll cover a single book in the series in release order. So if you haven't read them before, you only need to read one book each week to follow along. We'll cover book two, The Rules of Magic, on August 18th, and Book 3, Magic Lessons, on August 25th.
Kate: Then, on September 1st, we'll briefly interrupt our coverage of the Practical Magic series to welcome LJ Claren, author of the Solvarin series, on the podcast. We just completed our deep dive of book one, The Silversmith, so this will be our opportunity to ask all of our most pressing questions before the release of the incendiary on September 8th. If there's anything you're dying to know, be sure to drop us a comment or DM with exactly what you want to know from LJ. And that also means you'll have an extra week to complete the Book of Magic before our final episode of the Alice Hoffman series on September eighth.
Rachel: So let's dive into practical magic. This series will be structured differently than some of our previous deep dives. We'll start off each episode with a brief recap of the book before diving into some of the details, including the characters and relationships, the impact of the love curse, and the different types of spells and magic that we see in the book. And for this episode, we'll talk about some of the key differences between the book and the movie as well. This series is intended to be a fun book club style discussion. So pour yourself a midnight margarita and enjoy. I personally am enjoying a little kombucha today, which I thought was a perfectly witchy drink, but won't addle my mind for our discussion.
Kate: Yeah, I feel like kombucha is kind of like a potion, right? You it's brood, yeah.
Rachel: I think so, yes. I've tr Mm, mm-hmm. And I tried to brew it myself before. and things went south. Things went south. That would be that might have been one that was covered in the book.
Kate: A spell gone wrong.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Well, if you want to get the full immersive experience, be sure to follow us on social media where we'll be posting different prompts and interactive elements throughout the series. We always love chatting with you, so let's build our coven this practical magic season. You can find us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and YouTube at Deep Trope Podcast. But don't look out for any kombucha recipes anytime soon.
Rachel: Certainly not from me.
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: And finally, before we begin, a quick content warning. This episode will be chock full of spoilers for practical magic, so listen at your own risk if you haven't finished the book yet. Any content warnings from the book, such as references to death and abusive relationships, apply to this podcast. We are two unfiltered millennials, so if you're with anyone who is easily offended, maybe toss on those headphones. Alright, Kate. Would you like to start us off with a recap of practical magic?
Kate: I would love to. So, Practical Magic follows the story of Sally Owens and her sister Jillian, who grew up with their great aunts Jet and Frances after their parents' untimely death. The ants love the girls, but are somewhat lackadaisical with their parenting style. They don't worry themselves with silly things like proper meals, discipline, rules, or socializing. Sally and Jillian grow up watching their aunts conduct spells under the cover of night for desperate neighborhood women. One particular love spell sticks with them and they see the detrimental effects throughout the years. The girls are just over a year apart in age, but their upbringing manifests itself in very different ways. Sally becomes cautious and responsible, while Gillian becomes wild and boycrazy. At 18, Gillian escapes in the middle of the night to elope and start a grand adventure. Sally stays put, preferring a quiet, predictable life. That is, until she falls for a man named Michael that works at the local hardware store. He and Sally married quickly and moved into the attic of the ants' house. Michael changed the house and everyone in it for the better. The roses in the garden grew more lush and choked out the ragweed, the path didn't form ice anymore, the bats left the roof, and the ants had great affection for him. Everything felt warmer and more cheerful with him around. They have two children together: first Antonia, followed by Kylie, three and a half years later. They were Blissfully happy for a few years before the Death Watch Beetle began chirping the house, Michael was killed suddenly by a drunk driver shortly thereafter. Sally is depressed for a full year and doesn't leave her bed or care for herself or her children. Instead, she lets the ants care for her children. Her depression is so bad she describes it as not seeing color for the full year. The Owens lose all ties to the community that Sally had developed over the years. Which becomes especially evident when one day, a year after her husband passes, Sally finally gets out of bed, and she finds her aunts and the girls in the park. They're dressed in all black and not playing, but rather sitting and observing those around them. When Antonia returns a stray ball to a neighborhood boy, he pushes Antonia down so hard her shoes fly off her feet. This prompts Sally to yell stop it, which are her first words in a year. After this, Sally Takes her daughters and moves away to Long Island, New York, despite Kylie and Antonia's protests. She raises them strictly, or at least more strictly, than the ants, but still takes the girls to visit the ants each summer. Kylie and Antonia grow up to be very different from one another. Antonia is a beautiful redhead, and all the boys in town fall head over heels for her. She is so popular, she's even chosen as the lead in the school play for three years in a row. Kylie, on the other hand, is a tall, lanky brunette. She loves playing chess and hanging out with her sort of weirdo, antisocial best friend Gideon Barnes. They have a wonderful suburban life until Jillian shows up one night out of the blue with her dead boyfriend in the back of her car. She believes she accidentally killed him by dosing him with nightshade every night to curb his drinking and abuse. To avoid being blamed for his death, Gillian convinces Sally to bury Jimmy in the backyard beneath the lilacs. The sisters are determined to forget about Jimmy, but his presence is never fully gone, starting with the lilacs he's buried beneath, which immediately burst into an out of season bloom. Despite what an absolute piece of shit Jimmy was, Jillian still mourns his loss. She felt like she truly loved him, and seeing where that landed her, not to mention all the other disastrous times she's been in love, she vows never to fall in love again. Jillian stays with Sally and the girls and grows especially close to Kylie. On Kylie's 13th birthday, Jillian helps to give her a makeover that transforms her from a gangly tween to a gorgeous young woman who rivals even Antonia in beauty. This act of rebellion upsets both her mother, who worries about Kylie following in Gillian's footsteps, and Gideon, who feels betrayed that Kylie is abandoning their bond as outcasts. Gillian meets Ben Fry, a science teacher at the girls' school, and he falls immediately and deeply in love with her. Many men have had the same experience upon meeting Gillian, but Ben is different from the others. Jillian initially resists his advances, but decides to give him a chance and finds that his stability, devotion, and kindness are a welcome balm to her aching heart. Kylie has always had a kind of sixth sense for emotions and auras, but it develops into a strong clairvoyance as she grows up. She notices the ominous aura surrounding the ever-blooming lilac bushes and sees a dark, threatening male figure standing beneath the bushes. Sally and Gillian began to experience odd, inexplicable events, like items going missing, malfunctioning appliances, paychecks torn to shreds, and thanks to the growing resentment between them, They blame each other for these annoyances. When Kylie mentions the scary man lingering in their backyard, they realize that Jimmy's haunting spirit is actually the reason for the odd occurrences. Recognizing the threat he can pose, Sally cuts down the lilac bushes in an attempt to rid them of his haunting spirit. And it works for a time, and his ghost seems to be gone. The atmosphere at the house improves again as Sally and Gillian's relationship strengthens. When Kylie goes to Antonia for support after a horrible attack by a group of men, their relationship strengthens as well. The peace is broken once again when an investigator appears at their door looking for Jimmy. His name is Gary Hallett, and he's looking for Jimmy in connection to a series of deaths at a college in Tucson linked to bad drugs that Jimmy was selling. Jillian is determined to lie their way out of the mess, but Sally feels an odd bond to the man and doesn't feel like she can lie to him. She and Jillian make an attempt anyway, but Gary sees through their deception, aided by an ill-timed appearance of Jimmy's ring delivered via Toad, and Gary must decide whether to honor his commitment to the law and his work or his inexplicable connection to Sally. He recognizes that Jimmy was an evil man, but he feels conflicted nonetheless. Realizing that Jimmy's spirit is still haunting them, Sally and Jillian know they need to call in reinforcements. The ants arrive, much to Kylie and Antonia's delight, and set to work on a concoction to rid the garden of Jimmy for good. The Owens women all work together to brew the potion, and upon dumping it on the spot Jimmy was buried, they feel his presence finally leave them. The story concludes seeing the Owens women once again finding common ground and strengthening their relationships to each other and to their special family legacy. Jillian is feeling secure in her happy relationship with Ben. Gary ultimately decides that Jimmy was indeed punished for his crimes and finds a way to let Sally off the hook, allowing them to continue their relationship. Kylie and Antonia become more confident in themselves and their relationship with each other grows stronger.
Rachel: Thank you, Kate. So the core conflict in this story really revolves around this love curse. And it's something that we'll see throughout the entire series really as well. so why don't we start there and start by really kind of diving a little bit deeper into what that love curse is and everything that we learn about it in this book. So we learn that the Owens women are just unlucky in love, dating all the way back to the very original Owens matriarch, Maria Owens. We get some background on Maria. So she came to Massachusetts in the 1600s. Not a very good time to come to Massachusetts.
Kate: No, no, definitely not. There's a bit of a history there, I think, for women who don't conform.
Rachel: Right. And this book does not confirm that they're in Salem, Massachusetts, but they do reference Marblehead, which is where I've stayed both times that I've gone to Salem, and it's literally the next town over. so I think that it's supposed to be implied that it's taking place in Salem and Essex County.
Kate: Yeah, for sure.
Rachel: and when it comes to women who do not comply, that is a great way to describe Maria. So she shows up in town with this small saschel of belongings, a baby daughter, diamonds sewed into the hem of her dress, and she's wearing all black with no husband. Now, the all-black actually I think probably was probably appropriate for the time period.
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: but none of the rest of it was. And she was just this absolutely beautiful, independent, single mother. Like it's unheard of. so of course, people were suspicious of her. and it certainly didn't help that things just seemed to go her way. Her garden thrived, her baby never cried, you know, men were drawn to her, even though she turned them away. And the family still lives in the house that she built on Magnolia Street. She directed 12 Carpenters in How to Build the House, which is very like. Bible E, right? Like I think it's a little bit of a reference
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: to Jesus and the 12 disciples. so maybe there was like a little bit of a magic element there with the the 12 carpenters. because otherwise I don't know how a house from the 1600s would still be thriving today.
Kate: Well, I mean, yeah, not the sixteen hundreds. My house was built in the seventeen hundreds. That's not that far off, and I'm sitting in the attic right now.
Rachel: That's true, that's true. I I'm sure you reinforced it with a few spells though.
Kate: Well, you know, that's my secret. But they do reference a few times in this book about the wood in the house that never needs to be polished. So
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: the house is definitely like not a normal house from the 1600s. I I think that it is being kept kept up with some some magic things.
Rachel: Yeah. that being said, Maria had a secret, clearly. She seems like a lady with a secret.
Kate: She ha she had more than one, okay. But one big one, right?
Rachel: Yeah, one big one, unbeknownst to the rest of the town. She was traveling several times a month to visit a man in the town over, until one day he didn't come to the door. So Maria banged on it, injuring her hand in the process, until finally his wife came to the door. Which is not what you want, right? Of all the ways to have a broken
Kate: No.
Rachel: heart, like that's pretty intense. So Maria cast this curse on herself and her family. Seemingly unintentionally, she wanted to prevent herself from experiencing this type of heartbreak again, but it really spiraled and sort of backfired into something else, which is something that we do see with like love spells and some of the magic throughout this series.
Kate: Right. We very rarely see a love spell that goes perfectly and doesn't have any like unintended consequences. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: yeah, like her her original intent was to be like, well, this fucking sucked and I don't want anybody else to experience this kind of pain. But in doing so, she I mean it is a curse, right? It's not a a gift to her
Rachel: Right.
Kate: descendants. So She yeah, she ended up cursing them to experience, I would argue, even more painful love than if they didn't have this influence on them. So there are quite a list of doomed love affairs that we see in this book alone. And I'm sure we're gonna continue to see those in the rest of the series, but just a quick rundown. So we have Maria, obviously we just talked about the OG scorned lover. We have Sally and Jillian's parents who are described in the book their death as happening when they were so in love that they failed to notice the fire engulfing the house that they were in. so they were like
Rachel: Oops.
Kate: tangled up in bed and like not noticing that the house was burning down around them. So not great.
Rachel: I mean, being that in love sounds crazy.
Kate: Yeah, how about the burning to death part, Rachel? Does that sound
Rachel: No, I mean it sounds awful, I'm just saying, like
Kate: yeah, like crazy bad. Crazy bad.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. It seems more like
Kate: Got it. Got it.
Rachel: yeah, like like a mania than than love.
Kate: yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah. There's a lot of the like things in this book, like the obsession that men feel for Jillian and some other things that feel like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: not healthy at all in so many ways, very, very
Rachel: Right.
Kate: much like some type of mania. but anyway, going going back to the the doomed love affairs, the ants were also described as having some loves early on in their lives, when they were younger, that both died on the same day by being struck by lightning while trying to prove their love to the ants.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: And from what we can tell, they do not have any other like attempts at love. It seems like that experience turned them off to love. And they're just, you know, two spinsters living in this house together. And then we have Gillian, who probably has too many doomed love affairs to count. But Jimmy is the latest example, and then she has at least three failed marriages that we know of and, you know, countless other affairs. and then we have Sally who had a great love in Michael, who was tragically killed by the drunk driver. So, you know, that's just a a brief rundown of the the doomed love that we see just in this book, and we can tie all of it to the curse. And you know, while love is often presented in this book as a destructive force, we do see both sides of it. So Sally rejected love and kept herself distant from others for so long. But when she did meet Michael, she was blissfully happy and she felt fulfilled and Jillian sought to avoid being hurt by maintaining control over each of her relationships, like seemingly finding men who liked her more than she liked them, and it was just very toxic. but then she finds love again with Ben, and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: it seems much less toxic and happier than her other relationships. So, you know, we do see both sides of love, and there's you know, a point at the end of the book that they are very encouraging about love, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: which is still kind of confusing to me because I'm like, yes, you see some of the the high points of love, but they still are cursed and they still know that it's not going to work out for them. So I'm still a little bit unsure about how I feel about them being like, Yeah, you should still fall in love whenever you can You know, 'cause I'm like, okay, I don't know that I would want to sign myself up for that over and over again. I mean, what do you think?
Rachel: Well, I hear you, but I think that that just is the definition of love. And I think that's kind of the point of the book, right? Like, as humans, there will always be an end to every relationship. Doesn't mean it's always a completely tragic end, but you know, we come into this world alone and we leave it alone despite the relationships that we have along the way. And I think that's kind of the takeaway of the book is like love is always worth it. Attempting love is always worth it. And it's what's that saying? It's like the experience, the journey, not the end or the destination. Or the de the journey is the de destination.
Kate: Yeah, something like that. And I was gonna say some an another saying that that's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. You know, so there's a lot of
Rachel: Yes, exactly.
Kate: like a lot of sentiments that agree with that, but most of those are also not in the context of a curse that like guarantees that your love will end in tragedy. Because yes, like there's always that chance. whether you're cursed or not, but to go into a new relationship knowing that that's going to be the end, not just like a possibility, but like a guarantee pretty much for these women, that's where I'm stuck. And where I'm like, I don't know how I would feel about love if I was an Owens woman.
Rachel: Yeah, I think that's totally fair. I also, at least in this book, I don't think that they know that much about the curse. Or at least Sally and Jillian don't seem to. Like they don't seem to have a solution. Now we know that they have sort of taken a step back from magic, whether that's by choice or the way they were raised, like they're really not practicing magic in any way. So maybe the ants have a little bit more knowledge of it, but they're sort of debating like, is it worth it? Does the curse
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: really exist? I think that Gillian and Sally are sort of in this position where they're trying to decide if they believe in the curse and if they believe that it's inescapable.
Kate: Yeah, I guess I guess that is fair because, you know, we as readers are seeing this and being like, Well, you're all doomed and it's very clear
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that this is not ever gonna go well for you unless you can find some way to break the curse, which we don't see in this book. They do not explicitly break the curse. So we assume that even even though they are they kind of like ended up in these seemingly happy relationships, like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in the back of our minds we're still like, Okay, but how long is that gonna last?
Rachel: Right.
Kate: but they are not necessarily seeing it as holistically as we are as readers. So I yeah, I guess that that's fair from their point of view, they might still have hope. And you know, that's good for them.
Rachel: I think it would be very difficult to go through life without even a speck of hope.
Kate: Yeah. Or, you know, maybe you just learn to to live with it and learn to enjoy the good moments when you have them, even if you know that they're not going to last. So yeah, maybe it's just like you'd have to change your outlook on life. I think I would struggle with that, but if you lived in that reality, I don't think you'd have a choice.
Rachel: I feel like I would become like a version of Jillian where I was just like a big slut but didn't ask anybody's names. Cause I don't know how else you
Kate: Ha ha.
Rachel: get through life. Like you I I don't know how you get through life make
Kate: So you would still avoid love then?
Rachel: I think so. I mean, 'cause yeah, like how else would you get through life making those types of attachments? At least after the first husband died, I think that I would probably avoid love.
Kate: But the whole thing about the book is that you're supposed to embrace it anyway.
Rachel: Yeah, I know. I'm not s
Kate: Yeah. Okay. So so we're kind of on the same page then. We're like seeing their reality. I'm like, yeah, I don't think I think I would be more like the ants and just kind of avoid it. But yeah, I like I like your idea of still enjoying the attention and the affection that I'm getting from other people, but just
Rachel: What
Kate: trying to avoid the attachments. That does sound like it could be fun, at least for a while.
Rachel: Just saying, these women are loved. Men fawn over them, fall in love with them very easily. Life would be so easy if you walk into a car dealership and you're able to get like a brand new car for dirt cheap because these men are falling in love with you. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would try to just enjoy the benefits of the curse rather than the negative side.
Kate: Right. Yeah. So you're you're saying you would have used Jillian's powers for for more more benefit than she seemed to. You would not have gotten stuck with Jimmy and this
Rachel: Exactly. Exactly.
Kate: rotten relationship. You'd be like, He is one notch on the bedpost. He is not
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: worth ruining my life over. Yeah.
Rachel: Yes, I don't understand why none of these women took that approach.
Kate: Just enjoy it. Yeah. Well, I think it's because ultimately there there's still people that have feelings. And I also think that that could be part of the curse, too, of like, yes, all of these men are attracted very much to them, but it also kind of goes the other way, especially with Jillian. She fell in love very easily. She was not really able to avoid the the attraction the other way, you know? So yeah, like the way that
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: you describe it, that sounds great. If you could just stay unattached and just enjoy the the attention and the the benefits that it gets you, I mean, sounds key, but it doesn't sound like Jillian was capable of that. Like she fell in love
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: almost as often as people fell in love with her is what it sounds like. So that and that sounded like the curse to me, right? Like that they
Rachel: I agree. Mm-hmm.
Kate: can also can't the women also can't help their attraction. So
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I think I think that's the takeaway here is that the curse from we, you know, this book is very subtle when it comes to the curse and the magic. Like you're kind of having to infer from what you're seeing happen to these women. think it's a very good point that these men are falling in love with them very easily, but they're also falling head over heels. Like we're gonna Go through these relationships, there's a lot of instances of insta love. And that's what the curse has to be, that it's that they're actually falling as well.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. It's a and yeah, it it it it was interesting to kind of try to, like you said, infer like where the curse was influencing things and where it was just human behavior, you know. And I think
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that was kind of the whole the whole book and I loved the kind of subtlety of that where a lot of the interpretation was up to you of like, is that magic or is that just being alive? So but you
Rachel: Yep. Yeah.
Kate: mentioned the relationships. I think the relationships were such a huge part of this book. I feel like it was a book more about relationships than it was about magic. So let's
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: talk about them.
Rachel: Yes. So first we have those female bonds, which are really the coven, right? The Owens family coven. And in many ways, this book almost felt like women's fiction because of that, because like the women's stories and their life are like so much at the center of the book. the relationships between the family members really drove the character growth and the plot line. So let's start with the matriarchs, Aunt Frances and Aunt Jet.
Kate: Yes, I love them. So Francis and Jet, they're collectively known as the ants. They're pretty much always referred to collectively, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: almost like they're not individual people for a lot of this book. but they are Sally and Jillian's unconventional guardians for most of their childhoods.
Rachel: And these gals seem like the kind of spincers I'd like to be raised by. They do not give one hoot about what people in town think of them. They're just fine doing their own thing, and they attempt to raise Sally and Gillian to think the same way.
Kate: They are absolutely unapologetically themselves and they also readily embrace their magic. which,
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: like you said, they're they're trying to raise Sally and Jillian to be themselves and be, you know, unapologetic in that way, but they're not necessarily pushing the magic on them in the same way.
Rachel: Yes. And that's very interesting to me because magic is clearly like the core of who they are. It's obviously their only job, right? Like we don't see them have a job. We see that they have a very strict routine, but the only time that they go to work is at nighttime
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: when they turn the light on, the back porch, and do these spells for the neighborhood women. So I'm hoping that we get that as the series continues, that we learn why they're raising Gillian and Sally in the way that they are. but maybe it is that magic's sort of a choice and you have to kind of accept it on your own and maybe that's the reason.
Kate: Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking, right? Of like there's there's two thing two reasons that I was considering for why they would embrace the magic so much, but not necessarily push Sally and Jillian to do the same. And one of them is exactly what you said of, you know, they care more about Sally and Jillian just being themselves. And if that doesn't include magic, if they're not interested in it, if they don't care to explore that part of themselves, then the ants are not going to to insist on it. but the other one, and this is just me really looking forward to the next book in the series where we get to learn more about Francis and Jet. But the other thing that I was thinking was that maybe they've had enough negative experiences with magic throughout their lives that they're not that eager to have the girls be heavily involved in it. You know, like Just knowing that they had that experience with their lost loves at a young age and they never really wanted to try that again and they, you know, got into this kind of rut of behavior and in their life that it it seems like they are kind of trying to avoid some of the negative things that they experienced with magic. So maybe that's influencing how they they raise the girls as well.
Rachel: Hmm, yeah, that could definitely be it. I'm excited to learn more about their backstory as we continue the series. but it does seem like in many ways, Sally and Jillian showing up on their doorstep essentially save them from themselves. Like the routine that they created is very strict, very boring. They eat the same thing every day, all of which sounds awful. like the description
Kate: Yes.
Rachel: of the food. I think they're eating like turnips for lunch or something like that. Like it was so gross.
Kate: Just sad. Yeah.
Rachel: yeah, yeah. It yes, it's very much like two women in mourning is what it fit felt like when you when you read their description. So Gillian and Sally showing up changed everything for them, right? They d they described it as like, you know, they shifted their meals to peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and they had these two little girls to care for and and brought magic into their life in a different type of way.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And I I also think that it's it's really interesting that they described the ants as being very certain in their fate. So they were very certain. They thought they knew exactly like how they were going to to die, like what the rest of their lives would look like. And it pretty much was just a continuation of this routine that they'd been living in for who knows how many
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: years. And then at the end they'd like die in their beds. in their nineties. You know, like they were like, that's my life, and I'm that's fine. But then Sally and Jillian come to live with them and it's completely disrupted that view
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of, you know, like what they thought that their life was going to be. it's just really interesting to think about how, you know, when they described how they were so certain in their fate, you know, I did wonder if they knew that that was their fate, or that's just what they expected, you know, with the magic, again, it's very subtle.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: So you're not really sure exactly what that is, but like I got the the inkling that it seemed like they like had some kind of magical understanding of their their future, but it was able to be changed. And I think that's
Rachel: Right.
Kate: something that's really interesting. And I'm gonna keep looking out for that in other books books in this series because there are some times where it seems like you can't change fate. Like we'll talk about the Death Watch Beetle as as one of the magical things in this book. That doesn't these seem to be something that is able to be escaped, right? That's a fate that once it happens, it's it's set. But the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: ants, they were able to change their future and it completely was upended when the girls came to stay with them. So I just I thought that that was An interesting twist.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. And we don't know how they know their future or why they're so sure of it. Like we don't know what type
Kate: Right.
Rachel: of magic is influencing that. We see that Jillian dabbles in tarot cards, I would say. We don't know to what
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: extent. We don't know if she's actually seen anything in these cards, or if it's just something she's turning to to make money and it's not real for her. But if it's something like that, or it's more of like a vision, we don't know. But I do think like in fantasy books in general. That is definitely something with like fate and prophecy and vision. You're never getting the full picture. You never get the full picture. You're getting
Kate: Right.
Rachel: like one piece of the puzzle and you're trying to determine your fate from that tiny little glimpse that you're getting. That being said, it seems like everyone really adores the ants, right? Despite the fact that Gillian and Sally aren't following in their footsteps in a magical way, they have a really good relationship with them. Sally doesn't love, you know, their laxadaisical approach to parenting her children. But she still really adores them. And even when she moves away, she makes it a point to bring the girls to visit every summer. Sally's daughters also, of course, adore them. They're sort of like these like grandparents to them, right?
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: Jillian's really the only one who sort of dreads seeing them again, but I think that's more of a reflection of her own life and the choices she made. And dread at like putting up that mirror, right? Of the those people that raised
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: her and seeing like what they think about how who she's become. But of course, they're so loving and gentle with her. Like it's totally fine when they're reunited. They're very reassuring and proud of who she is, despite everything she has been through.
Kate: Yeah, so it's it seemed like it was more about yeah, like you said, like Jillian's view of herself and she was kind of projecting that onto the ants and worried that they
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: were going to judge her. But it was really kind of like her judging herself and
Rachel: Uh-huh.
Kate: the ants just love her and it seems pretty unconditional from their end.
Rachel: Yeah. So then we have Sally and Jillian. And that's an interesting relationship. I would say that that relationship is probably the most central to the story, right? Poor older sister Sally taking care of everyone around her, but especially Jillian, her first child, essentially, even though they're only one year apart. But at four years old, Sally had to step up and be the one that called the ants and tell them that she and Jillian needed to live with them. She was the one who packed their bags and told Gillian they needed to get rid of all their belongings and pack light from now on. Comparatively, Jillian has always been the younger sister and been cared for, and she's been so beloved by so many people that as a result, she's really carefree, but also careless, right? She's
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: she's like this tornado. when she comes into town. Like Sally's excited to
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: be reunited with her sister, but she's also dreading what she's bringing with her.
Kate: yeah. Like she sh it sounds so chaotic to be near her.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Like I I think I would really struggle to have somebody like that in my life, to be honest. because I I feel like I am like a little bit more towards Sally's personality. but having that just like unpredictable nature of like when she showed up on Sally's doorstep with a dead guy in her car. Like Sally didn't even seem that shocked. She was just like, Well, you know,
Rachel: No. She just was like, I'll just bury him.
Kate: like I knew that seeing Jillian was gonna like something was gonna happen. I guess it's this. Like
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. And of course she buries him for her, right? Like she's the one who gets the shovel.
Kate: Right. Yeah, no, like Jillian didn't even bury her own dead boyfriend, so
Rachel: Yeah. Sally solves the problem like she always does. it is interesting though that you say that because you and I are both younger siblings. So really in theory we should be the Jillians. Maybe we are
Kate: Well, yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know. I think like I'm thinking about my sisters. I don't think that we have a Jillian in the midst of us, at least, you know, somebody who's so careless with their impact on other people, which I'm grateful for. So
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: I don't know if you have a a Jillian character in your life, but it just again, she sounds like a lot of fun, potentially, but the lack of Accountability would drive me nuts.
Rachel: Yeah, I mean I definitely have experienced people like Jillian. And I don't know that I would say that it's fun. Like, it can be fun. But she's one of those people who's used to being fond over, used to being the center of retention, used to being like just the most popular girl, right? And it's like those people that you see kind of peak in high school. I think there's a reason that Gillian was so nervous to see her aunts, because They saw her at her best. Life got worse for Jillian after that, right? So
Kate: Right. Like it's it's less cute when you're in your thirties and still acting the same way as when you were sixteen. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah. That being said though, I love Jillian in the movie. It's just in the book In the book I was like nails on a chalkboard sometimes.
Kate: Yeah. Well Jillian in the movie was Nicole Kidman as well, who it's hard
Rachel: That's true.
Kate: for me to not like a character played by Nicole Kidman. I am a fan.
Rachel: I know, same. Like she she can't play
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: like somebody that I don't like. Even when she plays unlikable characters, I still like them.
Kate: I know, I know, she's good.
Rachel: Yeah. all right, and then we have the other set of sisters, right? So Kylie and Antonia.
Kate: Yeah, and their relationship is really interesting too because I see a lot of parallels between Kylie and Antonia and Sally and Jillian. You know, you have Kylie who tends to reject romance just like her mother often did, while Antonia tends to lean into her impact on other people and enjoys the attention like Jillian did. And Kylie and Antonia's differences do keep them at odds for many years. But when Antonia comforts Kylie after her assault, she takes on this like protective role that helps to repair their relationship that like doesn't really seem to be the same for Sally and Jillian. Like Sally comes in and she plays that protective role for Jillian, but it almost seems to be more expected in that one because Sally has always played that role versus Antonia was very like antagonistic and like mean to Kylie for a long time. So when she finally stepped into that more like older sister role, it shifted their relationship for the better versus like Sally and Jillian, who that was always their dynamic. And so when Sally
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: steps up to do these things, it doesn't really Jillian's just like, yeah, well that's Sally. That's what she does. And you know, like so
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: there is there is definitely that difference there. but this relationship seemed more I think normal, I guess, of a relationship between sisters than Sally
Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate: and Jillian's. and I think that's just a testament to the fact that they had for the most part a more normal childhood. Obviously they had the trauma of like losing their father. but like Sally has worked really hard to provide stability for them and to kind of try to give them as much of a normal life as possible. and I think that shows in the fact that they do have this kind of what I see as a a kind of standard relationship for for sisters. I know that I didn't get along with my sisters f for the whole time when I was growing up. You know, we became very
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: close when I was older, but you know, as a as a young kid, we definitely were at odds a lot. So
Rachel: Right. Right.
Kate: Made sense.
Rachel: Yeah. And I I think you're right that it it's a testament to their upbringing. Like Sally is a great mom. You know, I I didn't even put it in our notes to talk about their relationship much because Sally's just a great mom. Like she just is. Like she is one of those people that is always willing to get her hands dirty. She's just very much In the weeds with everything, like quite literally, she's the one who pulls the weeds at the aunt's garden. So when she moves away, it's like
Kate: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel: overgrown with weeds. and she's just so loving and caring and and makes sure that she's always taking care of everybody around her, right? And you know, she's a secretary at the school, which she gets a little frustrated because like the teachers, some of them are like down talking to her and And treating her like she's like nothing, and you know that she was running that school, you know?
Kate: it would collapse without her, I'm sure of it.
Rachel: right. but then it's perfect for her too, because then she has the summers off to spend with her girls, and like they really are her world. so I I do think that that's the reason that they are so much more like normal. They didn't have to deal with the stuff that Sally had to at age four, right?
Kate: Right. Yeah. Antonia wasn't forced into the that protective role. She
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: she stepped into it when Kylie needed her, and that like made it that much more impactful.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: but but yeah, I mean Sally did have that one blip of a year, and that year did sound really, really bad, where she was so overcome with her depression that she couldn't care for herself or her girls, but she had made sure that she had a village, right? Where like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the ants were able to step in and care for her kids when she wasn't able to. And that is still, you know, part of being a good parent, I think, is, you know, having that support system that isn't just you, because I don't care how great of a parent you are, you cannot do it a hundred percent alone. and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: So, you know, there's still that element to it of they weren't alone and
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: So she she was able to get the support that she needed at that very dark time in her life.
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And I actually really appreciated that element of the book and seeing Sally's clearly undiagnosed depression in throughout the book, right? Like I liked seeing how she learned to cope with it and the people around her learned to cope with it. Like the ants stepped up and they raised the girls the best that they could, even if Sally wasn't loving the way that they did it. You know, they did their best.
Kate: But they did it and the girls were happy and and healthy and that's what mattered, right?
Rachel: Yeah. And then again, Sally has that episode later after and after Kylie's attack and she just spirals over what her daughters are up to. What is this thing that brought them close together? Which obviously she was right. There was something bad that happened. But, you know, rather than really just sitting down with the girls and trying to like have that conversation, she spiraled to the point that she she got herself into like her depressive state again and and Jillian had to be the one to kind of pull her out of it and and seem to recognize what it was.
Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So it's you know, it I appreciated that Sally, who is arguably, you know, the most stable character one of the most stable characters in this book was still s you know, a person that had her own issues and, you know, was not infallible in that way. So I did I liked the depth that we got on all of these characters.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. I agree. So I do wanna, as our last relationship in the coven to touch on, I do wanna touch on the aunt-niece relationship between Gillian and Kylie and Gillian Antonia, which she has very different relationships with her two nieces, right? So,
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: Gillian and Antonia, this kind of goes back to what I was saying about Gillian being one of those people that is so used to being like the Queen Bee, essentially. And her and Antonia. butt heads because that's also Antonia's role, right? And
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: you see Jillian kind of like antagonize her a little bit, right? She's stealing her thunder, she's stealing her clothes, and she stole her crush.
Kate: Yeah, which is just brutal. because
Rachel: Ha ha.
Kate: she's she's kind of acting like Antonia is like a peer of hers instead of a child and her niece, you know?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I know. And like, I don't know if it's a thing where she even I don't I don't know if Gillian even knew that Antonia had a crush on Ben, right? I think that's kind of
Kate: Right.
Rachel: uni up for interpretation, how awful you think Gillian is. But she might have just fallen in love with him the same way. And also it was It was Antonia's teacher. It's not like she was ever going to have a relationship with Ben. But she
Kate: Right. But Jillian could have literally whoever the fuck she wants. So but
Rachel: Right. Right.
Kate: yeah, I it it wasn't very clear. I don't know that Jillian really knew Antonia's feelings there, but I don't know. I mean, I've seen teenagers with a crush. They're not super subtle. So I
Rachel: I know.
Kate: feel like if she if she was paying attention, she probably would have noticed. But that's the other thing is that Jillian doesn't really pay that much attention
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: to other people.
Rachel: Right. Right. And then on the flip side, we have Jillian and Kylie. And Jillian openly tells Kylie that she's her favorite, which is the number one thing you're not supposed to do. Even if it's true. That's the number one thing.
Kate: huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Rachel: but of course Kylie adores her. You know, she's that she's that Queen Bee that Antonia is and and someone that she wants to be and she wants to be like, and she's kind to her, unlike Antonia, right? So she really looks up to her, and it all kind of comes to a head when Jillian cuts and dyes her hair to be like hers, and Sally loses it. Gideon loses
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: it, and you can just You do see the family dynamics at play there, right?
Kate: yeah, well it it's also it's the carelessness from Jillian, right? Of like,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: yeah, maybe Kylie wanted it, but I don't think she was prepared for what it would mean for her. I think, I mean, we saw Kylie kind of lose it after that because she was so overwhelmed with the attention that she got after her little makeover.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: And so, you know, she was not prepared and she didn't really know what she was signing up for there. But then, yeah, not recognizing how. much of an overreach it was for her to do that when again Kylie was only thirteen, like newly thirteen at the time. I mean,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I don't know. I know like dyeing hair is not that big of a deal now, but I remember when I was younger, my mom would not let me dye my hair until I was older. And I don't know, like just things like that that are like, you should probably check with her mom first. And
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Not to mention the fact that this seemed to go beyond just the hair and, you know, it was
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: just again, she was thinking that she was doing something great but not really thinking it through.
Rachel: Yeah. Right, I think we should spend some time talking about the romantic relationships.
Kate: I agree.
Rachel: So first we have Sally and Michael, which insta love for both of them on all accounts seems like just a beautiful love story and and kind of perfect marriage until, you know, it wasn't. Well, it was always a perfect marriage. It just
Kate: Until he gets smooshed.
Rachel: until it was over.
Kate: Yeah. There is a bit of of a darkness there though, because it is implied that the aunts might have like kind of conjured Michael for Sally or, you know, like influenced that relationship in a way. which if true Is pretty dark because Sally again was like pretty adamant that she was not interested in love at all. And even though she did
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: have a lot of happy years with Michael, to then have the potential of like, were her feelings even her own? Or, you know,
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: like if it wasn't started organically, what does that actually mean? So again, we're t we talked about overreaches. This that would
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: be a insane overreach. you know, so I again we we don't get any like big details about that, but that was kind of like a dark cloud that was put over that relationship beyond just, you know, the untimely death of it.
Rachel: Yeah, we don't know for sure and we don't get confirmation, but there were hints because the ants were trying to like set her up with like all the college guys in town and stuff, like definitely little hints that maybe they had played a hand in that. Then there's Sally and Gary, again, installed for both of them. And I don't think
Kate: A against their better judgment for both of them.
Rachel: Yeah. Things turned out pretty good. Do you not think so?
Kate: I mean no, it did. It did. but he did have to like break the law for her and you know, she
Rachel: Okay, well, the law was not black and white in this situation.
Kate: No, I I believe that Jimmy one hundred percent got what he deserved. I think he deserved a worse death than, you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: whatever non painful thing that he ended up getting. But you know, it's just that ultimately they were it was a conflict of interest.
Rachel: Sure. But you know, we have a flawed justice system.
Kate: for sure. For sure.
Rachel: And I'm happy that a cop did what I believe is the right thing in this situation.
Kate: finally.
Rachel: Ha ha Alright, and Jillian and Jimmy are villain, He was an actual piece of shit abuser. And Jillian has a line where she reflects on his drinking habits and that she never knows if that he will want to beat her or fuck her when he has a certain look in his eye. Like that tells you everything that
Kate: So dark.
Rachel: you need to know about this man.
Kate: Yeah, sounds terrifying. and I am lucky enough to have not been in an abusive relationship before, but that it it just sounds like when she described it that way of like how could you ever be at peace ever?
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. No sh I mean she couldn't. She was always like living she was always nervous about how he was going to act and who he was gonna be that day. And there's a reason that she was poisoning him. There's a reason he she was
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: drugging him, you know?
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: But that being said, despite the fact that he is clearly pure evil, she just can't quit him. And like many abusers, he is charming and knows how to win women back over and over and over again. Jillian mentions how he had the ability to make you feel like the only person in the universe. And then, which, you know, we'll get into all the magic in this book, but that is something that we even see in the magical elements of the lilacs that he's buried beneath, put out this like, scent that draws all these women in and it's like, yeah, that's who he was.
Kate: Yeah. But then they had the this very threatening aura about them. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kate: again, it's yeah, that that's an interesting parallel that I d I didn't put together of like the lilacs. 'Cause I I was thinking in my mind about how it was odd that, you know, he's this like threatening force, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the the lilacs bloom and they're like so beautiful and abundant and I'm like, well that seems Like it's obviously unnatural and concerning in that way, but s doesn't seem to be like harmful. But the way that you described it, that makes a lot more sense than that parallel. that's interesting.
Rachel: Yeah, 'cause they were like flocking to the yard and like obsessed with these lilacs. Like it was his it was Essence O Jimmy.
Kate: Ryan. and they also they would like make they would like make animals forget what they were doing or like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: things like that. So like that kind of like they would get into your brain the scent
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and like make you forget your reason.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: shit. That's good. That's so good. my god. It's
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. No, the lilacs are super creepy. Yeah. He was like possessing the the garden.
Kate: Yeah. Just
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like he possessed Jillian. damn.
Rachel: In the movie. In the movie.
Kate: No, like possessed, like she she lost her reasoning, you know, she lost her logic, you know, she because she she knew in
Rachel: right. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes.
Kate: her mind, she knew like this is not a good man. I should not be with him, I should get out. But
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: he was clouding her judgment, and she just like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: couldn't, you know, couldn't get herself to to make the move. She was like addicted to him in in an odd way. So yeah, that's I like that. I like that.
Rachel: Yeah. all right, and then Jillian sort of happily ever maybe Jillian and Ben. Yeah
Kate: Happily ever for now. For however long the curse allows it to be. Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: so Ben is an interesting guy. So it's like he's the teacher, right? The science teacher. And we see him instantly fall in love with Jillian. She kind
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of resists it at first. She's intrigued from the beginning, but she doesn't think that she wants to be in a relationship after the mess. That was Jimmy.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: But, you know, she she comes around to it. And I think that some of the ways that they described Ben in this book also gave me this inkling that like maybe he has a little bit of magical blood in his line as well. Because they talked a lot about how. like Jillian's attraction kind of worked where all these men just instantly fell in love with her. And
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they it seems like Ben kind of has a similar aura about him because they talk about how he is like the entire town, all the women are obsessed with him and they are all in love with him and they like know his schedule and they have his phone number memorized to the point where when somebody asks for their number, they say his instead. And like, so it like it seems like he kind of has a spell on the women in the town the way
Rachel: That's a good point.
Kate: that Jillian has a spell on the men.
Rachel: Hmm.
Kate: There's also the fact that he is a magician with a pet rabbit, right? So like I know that he's like, you know, he does magic tricks in the more like traditional sense of like,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, fake illusions, but it's a little on the nose. Right. So like maybe he's drawn to that line of work because he like feels it in his bones a little bit. 'cause
Rachel: just cracking up at this you're probably on to something, but I'm cracking up at the idea that this guy who's still what is it called when you're like still tripping from acid like years later? Like flashbacks? Is it flashbacks?
Kate: I don't I don't know.
Rachel: I mean they describe the fact that he gets like stuck looking at like ceiling lights or something because of these past acid trips that he had. And it's like, okay, this guy who can't stop staring at the freaking fan and like doing card tricks has magic. Like he probably thinks he does have magic.
Kate: Well, there i it's also implied, you know, that there's different levels of magical ability, right? Like even
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: between the Owens women, they don't all have the same abilities, they don't all seem to have the same kind of strength of magic. So I I'm just saying in the Massachusetts area, it seems like there could be a possibility that he's got some magic in his blood somewhere along the line. And I'll give you a few more examples. Okay. One being when he was so obsessed and consumed by thoughts of Jillian that he was just like accidentally doing magic tricks wherever he went.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: you know, and it's like that accidental piece
Rachel: That's a good sign.
Kate: of it is is interesting because I'm sure that if you practice a magic trick a million times, you might be able to do it in your sleep, but it still seems like a very like intentional thing. And so to just be like not even noticing there they they said that he would like be like pulling the tablecloths off of every table when he passed it in a restaurant and like setting boiled eggs spinning and I don't know, just like weird little things that I was like, okay, is he doing that? with illusion or is he
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: doing, you know, I don't know. And then there's the bunny.
Rachel: No, that's a good point. That's a good point.
Kate: There's this rabbit buddy, who he has trained to turn on lamps, drink water out of a glass by holding it between his paws,
Rachel: That's cute.
Kate: and he's litter trained, among other things, like like trained to do, you know, perform in these different magic tricks that he has as well.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: So I don't know, just like the whole combination of things. Again, like everything involving magic in this book. you have to do a lot of your own interpretation, but I just have a I have an inkling.
Rachel: I think I was literally rolling my eyes at him so much that I didn't pick up on any of
Kate: Ha ha.
Rachel: that. I was like, my god, this guy's doing freaking card tricks. Like I just can't He's like, Phil Dunfee.
Kate: You don't think magic tricks are hot?
Rachel: I will say the one thing that I picked up on that I thought was a little creepy or questionable that I do want to touch on briefly, because I don't think that he was a creep or questionable, but I didn't like this interaction. So when Jillian and Ben had sex for the first time, this was when she was still like trying to push him off. Like she she wanted him and she liked him, but she didn't want to put herself, you know. In the same position that she'd been in for all these past terrible relationships, she was fully bought in on the curse, right? So she just was like, I don't know that I'm I'm open to love again. But she just can't seem to quit him. Like she's still like interested in him. And the first time that they have sex, they're like hooking up. And we, as the reader, know her mental state where she's planning to say no. And there's also a line that we get as a reader. Where it says that Ben Fry is not going to take no for an answer that night, which does not sound like Ben Fry in the rest of the book. So it's very strange that
Kate: Right.
Rachel: we get that line. And I don't think that he forces himself on her. I don't think he even does anything questionable, but we do just see that he's touching her in every way that she likes. And she gets so into it that she goes all the way with him. And I don't know, it just felt a little icky. And I don't know if this is just a result of this book being written in the nineties and enthusiastic consent was not really a thing yet. But I didn't love that scene. And I I just felt that I would be remiss if I didn't point it out.
Kate: Yeah, no, I agree. That that line in particular, the like not taking no for an answer, because of course, no means no.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but yeah, in the nineties, I don't know if that was as much of a like problematic phrase as it is
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: now of like maybe it just meant that he was like very determined to show her that he loved her. I don't know, but
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: yeah, I'm with you. It doesn't feel great reading it, you know, now.
Rachel: In in the light of twenty twenty six
Kate: yeah. and like you said, I mean, the wrestler relationship does seem to be pretty positive and safe and consenting.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: and they do explore bondage together, which I found like was interesting because after Jillian's experience with Jimmy, who was very controlling and abusive, especially in their sex life. it, you know, it it kind of shows how like much she trusts him and loves him and is willing to kind of give up that control and explore that thing that she's interested in in this like safer relationship. but there's a point, I think it's it might even be be around the the same scene that you were talking about, but where Ben is thinking about how obsessed he is with Jillian and how he wants to like tie her up with silk ribbons so that she can't leave. Which
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kate: is another pretty problematic thing that he's thinking. with all the other context that we have about Ben, he doesn't
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: seem to be a problematic character. but yeah, I didn't I just it's one of those things where like I just don't really want to be in a straight man's head that much. so I think if we hadn't gotten his thoughts in some of these scenes I might have like felt less icky about it, but
Rachel: I agree with you because I there's nothing I love more than when we get the MMC's POV in our romanticy books.
Kate: I mean I guess I I have enjoyed some of those, but I don't know, in general I just don't really relate, you know.
Rachel: Mm-hmm. I hear you. All right. Why don't we touch on our little our little teenagers? They're there not not too much to say there, but there are some some relationships happening.
Kate: Yeah, so we have Antonia and Scott, who again, it felt kind of like insta love.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but it also was, I think, pretty wholesome because after all of the attention and like boys who were obsessed with Antonia, Scott seemed to be like really a like not her usual type. And,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, he's a scholar and he's like smart and and introspective and, you know, just more thoughtful, I guess, than the other boys that, you know, seemed to be more the norm for her. So I did I liked that that's who she was with at the end of the book, because I think that showed some growth for her as well.
Rachel: I agree, but I was on the edge of my seat convinced he was gonna die the whole book, so I don't feel great about him for
Kate: Well, that's that's how they live their entire lives, Rachel. That's how these poor women have to live every day of their life.
Rachel: I know, I know, I know. But he's like that good kind of like that very smart, accomplished, just good guy that you're like, Ugh, you don't seem long for this world.
Kate: He was also a delivery boy, right? So he would have like plenty of opportunity to get into a horrific car crash or something.
Rachel: Yeah, or like the ice cream would like tip over on him. I don't know, as he's delivering it.
Kate: Y you were convinced that Scott was gonna drown in ice cream?
Rachel: Honestly, if
Kate: huh.
Rachel: when it happens, I hope that's how I go. At the ripe old age of a hundred and ten, I'd like to drown in ice cream.
Kate: You know, I mean, shoot the stars.
Rachel: Mm. And then we have Kylie and Gideon, which seems to be friends to potentially more. They definitely seem like they're both aware that they have feelings for one another, that they're sort of choosing to step over that line. But they're both very young. They're thirteen. so we really haven't seen it, haven't explored it much, but potentially in future books. I don't know.
Kate: Yeah. I kind of appreciated that they didn't like explicitly have Kylie in a relationship at the end of the book because I do I mean it was like an interesting relationship that she had with Gideon.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and like to your point, they did kind of imply that maybe it was it was going in that direction. But I don't know. I liked exploring some relationships that weren't always explicitly romantic.
Rachel: I agree. I felt very realistic. Like being 13
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: and having a best friend that's a boy and realizing that you're in love with him, that's very realistic, age appropriate, and it again just goes to like this book being the full experience of womanhood, you know?
Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. And yeah, Gideon was also a pretty believable thirteen year old boy, because there were points where I liked him and then other points where he was insufferable. So it you know, I I thought that he was
Rachel: No one besides Kylie seemed to like him. Isn't that there I think there's a line that's like Kylie's
Kate: That's true.
Rachel: the only one who likes him.
Kate: yeah, I mean, like it's described as like they're kind of each other's only friends. But Kylie,
Rachel: Uh-huh.
Kate: as, you know, was evidenced by the end of the book when she was like popular and beautiful and whatever, but like she had the potential to make other friends even before her you know, outward transformation. But it didn't seem like Gideon wa had any any luck there. And wasn't really
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: interested in being friends with anybody else either.
Rachel: Yeah. Alright. Kate, it's time for my favorite part. Let's take a look at the magic.
Kate: Ooh, yes, please. So we've got a lot of different, again, references to magic. A lot of it is up for interpretation on exactly how
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: it kind of works or what the influence really is. But some of the more obvious references that we have are the auras that
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: Particularly Kylie is able to see, like she physically sees these auras. Like I said about the lilac bushes, she sees this very ominous, dark aura around these gorgeous plants. and she also sees, you know, auras around people, and it leads her to be very attuned to like their emotions and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: how they're they're feeling and and things like that. We also you already mentioned Gillian and her tarot cards. So that one was really up for interpretation of like, is this just a gimmick for her to get some money or is there some real magic going on there?
Rachel: huh.
Kate: and then there was Jillian's hair not growing back after her she cut it.
Rachel: Which what is up with that? Because they said that this woman came up to her out of nowhere and offered her like $2,000 or something like that to buy her hair so that she could have it turn into a wig. And this is just like something out of a fairy tale that it never grew back. Like, was this woman some kind of like a hag and this was a curse? Or is it something somehow related to the Owens family? And is that why Sally was so mad about Kylie's hair? Like sh was she scared that Kylie's hair was never gonna grow back?
Kate: I that's a good point. I wasn't thinking
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: about that. Cause yeah, I'm like, yeah, I get look, my mom probably would have been pretty upset if I was 13 and came in the room with like stark blonde hair chopped off and you know,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: but it's still just hair, like it'll grow back, assuming. But yeah, I forgot that they had that experience where Jillian's hair didn't grow back. So yeah, maybe she was worried about that.
Rachel: Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I think her hair does grow back. They definitely talk about her hair growing and her roots showing. So I'm I'm assuming that Kylie's
Kate: Right, yeah. So
Rachel: not affected by whatever happened to Jillian.
Kate: Yeah, Ky Kylie's hair is fine. It grows out. They say that it like when it grows out, it actually looks almost better than it did initially because
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: she's just like naturally so gorgeous that of course she doesn't have unblended roots when her dye job blows like her dye job grows out.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. But I do wanna know about this lady that bought Jillian's hair because I feel like maybe she's a hag.
Kate: Yes. Yeah, was she is she like some vindictive witch that tricked Jillian into selling something that was more precious than she thought it was?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, because it very much like Jillian when Sally was upset about it, Gillian's like, it's just hair, it'll grow back. And it's just Gillian being careless and not thinking through all the possible scenarios. Now, would anybody think through that scenario? Probably not, but it was just a typical Jillian response.
Kate: I mean yeah, I certainly would never like, you know, I got a haircut last week. I have every expectation that it's going to grow back out.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: You know, so I get but they don't live in the same reality as everybody else. So
Rachel: Right.
Kate: another common magical theme in the book was the animals. So there's a lot of different instances of animals, and it's always in the context of something weird going on. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you have like we mentioned before, we have the Death Watch Beetle, which is a terrifying omen that, you know, when it chirps, it means that death is coming to somebody in the household. And the person who is destined to die can't hear the chirping, but everybody else in the house can hear it and it's like unstoppable. You can't like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you can't avoid this fate once it starts. which again
Rachel: It's freaking terrifying.
Kate: 'cause it's like weeks. It's like weeks leading up to the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: death. Just imagine living in that hell.
Rachel: Well, and the movie did such a good job of like showing how terrifying that is. Cause they show Sally pulling up all of the floorboards of the house and it's like, yeah, it literally
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: drives you freaking insane. Can you imagine like just sounds like that in general? Like when you hear like a cricket, that you're just like, where is this cricket? But then add that fear on top of it.
Kate: Yeah. Yeah. So that that's a creepy little bug. and it again, that was like the one thing that was pretty set in stone.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Like every every mention of it was like, yeah, this is not something that you can find a way to escape. they also they're witches, so they have cats. at least the ants do. They have a few cats. in their their home that I imagine are like familiars or something like that. But there's a point where the cats follow Sally to school and it ends up being one of the scenarios that gets the town convinced that they're witches because the
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: cats follow Sally to school. they won't go away no matter who is trying to, you know, shoe them and get them out of the room. at one point some little snot-nosed shit in her class lights one of their tails on fire, which is so fucked up. And obviously
Rachel: Rude.
Kate: Sally is really upset about it and she's angry and in her anger she like yells something at him like, you know, I hope that you get hurt or, you know, like whatever
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: she's Just an angry kid who's trying to protect her cats. And then, you know, at that moment a like a ceiling tile falls on this kid and he gets hurt. And it's again one of those things where you're like,
Rachel: Oops.
Kate: okay, did Sally just curse this kid unintentionally or not? And do
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like, did she cause that ceiling tile to fall? Or was it just an unlucky coincidence? You know, again, not explicitly confirmed in any way, but it did, you know. lead to all of the students calling Sally a witch. So
Rachel: Ha
Kate: the animals are also drawn to Jillian and Ben's love, which I felt
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: like was a very interesting little tidbit where
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: it was like all kinds of different animals, right?
Rachel: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was like the cats were following them, the dogs were following them. There's a very specific scene when there I guess Ben would go down by like the water to run, and Jillian would go and time him, and she would sit up on these rocks, and he would have to like help her tiptoe over all of the toads that would surround her. Yeah, I know. That was gross.
Kate: All right. Let's talk about the toads. Because they like swarmed the town, right? And i they
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: sounded so gross that like they were described as like they would cover the road and so people would like intentionally try to like swerve and like hit them and just sounded disgusting. but also there's the toad that dug up Jimmy's ring and led to some you know, complication in their
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: issue with Gary initially. so yeah, again, that toad, I don't think it was a coincidence that he got Jimmy's ring. you know, there's there's something magical and fishy going on there. I don't think that the toads
Rachel: Reptilian?
Kate: are a good yeah. Mm-hmm.
Rachel: Ha ha ha ha ha.
Kate: Or amph amphibian. I don't know what the toads are, but
Rachel: Amphibian. I guess it would be amphibian, yeah. There's something amphibian going on here.
Kate: But either way another animal was the yearly sparrow. So this was a bird that every Midsummer's Eve would fly into the ant's house. And if it circled three times, then they knew that they were in for a bad year, basically.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and so that was like an omen, but it also was something that triggered for Sally. like Sally at one point was convinced that she was. Gonna become a spinster like her her aunts and was gonna just have the same thing every year, over and over again, her life was never really gonna change. And then one year the sparrow doesn't fly into the house, and
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: Sally's like, shit, I guess something might be changing. And then she meets Michael, and it's like, you know, that whole thing. So
Rachel: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Kate: animals seem to be omens.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: and then the last mention that I'll I'll give is Again, Ben's rabbit buddy The unnatural ability to be trained.
Rachel: It seems like nature is where we're really seeing a lot of the magical elements where we're like, hmm, that's not how it normally works. So you're again just sort of hinting about whether or not it's magic or whether or not Buddy is just, you know, a special rabbit. But
Kate: Just just very well trained.
Rachel: Yeah, and we see it in the plants as well, right? Like with Maria in her garden, they the townsfolk don't trust her because she's got this like blooming garden. and is it magic or does she just have a green thumb, right?
Kate: Mm-hmm. And you have the rose bushes at the aunt's house that get larger and healthier when Michael is living there. Like they can pick up on the vibes.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you have the lilacs like that we already talked about that bloom like crazy out of season and are like hypnotizing people. And then you also have the onions from the garden that are said to be the best cure for dog bites and toothaches. And from the Owens garden, like I actually believe that. You know?
Rachel: Right. No, that had to be magic. Like again, we don't know for sure, but it had to be magic because they say that it's the same onion plants that Maria had planted, I think. Or there were like plants for that Maria planted that are still showing up in this garden.
Kate: Right.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: Yeah, them them's some magic onions.
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: And then some other magical things here. again, Kylie seems to be like one of the stronger magical forces in this family at this point. I mean, again, we assume that the ants are also pretty powerful, but we don't get as much information about them. But Kylie, we talked about she can see the auras, she is very attuned to people's emotions and everything. she could see Jimmy's ghost in the garden, like
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: physically see his ghost. and she's the only one that could do that. And she can also kind of sense the future. So there's a point where, you know, they're supposed to be about to travel to the aunt's house, and Kylie is just like, it's not gonna happen. Like, she just knew that their plans were gonna change and that something else was gonna happen. It was gonna prevent them from going to the aunt's house. And so they describe it as her having the sight.
Rachel: Well, Kate, I want you to know that I too have the site.
Kate: What can you see, Rachel?
Rachel: Okay, this vacation thing happened to me. So when I
Kate: Ha ha ha ha.
Rachel: I swear this exact same thing happened to me with vacation. So when I was in college, I studied abroad in Scotland. And you know how it is when you study abroad, you can get like very cheap tickets from one country in Europe to another. And I was supposed
Kate: It was amazing.
Rachel: it was amazing. Like I had no money. I
Kate: I wish we had it.
Rachel: had no money. I spent all of my money. I had like $40 a week. That was my budget. And I was literally eating like oatmeal and then I would get like the super cheap beers through like the student discounts at
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: the local pubs and I would spend all my money on these cheap tickets around Europe and then like go to other countries. So I'd saved up because this one was a little bit more pricey. It was like, I don't know, a $30 ticket to Spain. And I was gonna go
Kate: Splurge.
Rachel: And I was gonna go, you know, to Barcelona and Palma de Majorca. And it was gonna be so much fun, like a spring break, which I never did in college. Well, as it turned out, I wasn't ever going to do this in college because I was not packing. I was not packing. My roommate who was going with me was like, Rachel, you need to pack. I'm like, I don't know. Like, I'm not stressed about it. And I was like, I just don't know if this is happening. She's well, it's not gonna happen for you. You're gonna miss this flight if you don't. Do your laundry right now and pack. And I'm like, I just don't think this trip is happening. Well, Kate. The volcano in Iceland blew and everybody was stranded
Kate: I remember that.
Rachel: around Europe. Like my friends that had already taken flights places had to like figure out a system of trains to get back to freaking Scotland. I did not have this problem. I was stuck in Scotland, which is fine. I would choose to be stuck in Scotland every day of the week. But I'm just saying, I think I had the sight in that
Kate: I mean,
Rachel: moment.
Kate: you can you can I I believe it, you know, there are some things that can't really be explained. My mom is convinced Hi mom, I know she's listening. She is convinced that she has some kind of aura that affects electronics around her. and I, you know, don't know how accurate that might be. but I have actually witnessed it a few times. we had this old minivan, and when she would go to drive it or even just like get near it, like the lights would start flashing. the like garage door
Rachel: That's crazy.
Kate: opener would also like not work for her a lot of times, and it would only happen to her. And she said that her mom had the same thing where like she couldn't ever wear watches because watches didn't work around her like like they would just stop working. So
Rachel: That's crazy. Cause I was gonna say most boomers
Kate: I don't know.
Rachel: have the problem where technology doesn't work around them.
Kate: yeah, no. I mean, listen, there's I I help her with her her electronics sometimes too, but no, this is specifically like an electrical like issue thing. So I don't know. I think I think every woman has a little witch in her and I think that's beautiful.
Rachel: I think that is beautiful. If you're listening,
Kate: Yeah.
Rachel: drop in the comments what your witchy power is that you're convinced is just something a little something a little special. so to round out our list of magical moments in the book, of course we have to talk about the ants, right? They come into town to save the day because they know magic. and we know from earlier in the book, magic is their job. That is the only way that we see them making money. Turning that light on that's been on the Back porch of the Owens house since the sixteen hundreds, And every night women from the town come to ask for help in love, right? it seems like they specialize in love spells specifically, although I don't know that that's the only thing that they do. and we see we see that it doesn't always go well. Ha ha ha
Kate: No, and I will say they they do seem to be like pretty upfront about it. They tell women like, you know, you gotta be careful with this. Like we're gonna do what you're asking, but be sure.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: They had they had no shortage of of customers, regardless of what I'm sure were a lot of women in town that were not super happy with the results.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: it didn't seem to slow down their business.
Rachel: Yeah, and there's that one woman in particular that we see throughout the series, and we see the detrimental effects of that love spell. So she's the one who said,
Kate: Like over time, yeah.
Rachel: Yes, she was the one who wanted this man who was married, and, you know, she wanted him to love her. And in the book, I don't remember if we get the exact language in the book. In the movie, we watch her say, I want him to love me so much he can't stand it. And I don't know that we even see the effects of it in the movie. In the book, we see the effects, and he is driving her nuts. Like he is literally just constantly following her around, will not leave her alone. You know, she talks about how like all he wants to do is fuck.
Kate: Mm-hmm. She's like, I'm so goddamn tired.
Rachel: Yeah, and yeah, I think it's I think it's something that yeah,
Kate: Yeah, be careful what you wish for.
Rachel: you care for what you wish for and it's something that we see in a lot of fantasy books that like love spells are never a good idea. You don't want to force anybody to love you ever.
Kate: No, because then it doesn't like love feels good when it comes naturally.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: You know, that's the whole thing about it.
Rachel: Right.
Kate: So I got the feeling that not only were they helping women with love, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they also mentioned that some of the women that were coming to their door were ones that had maybe gotten pregnant when they didn't want to. And
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: So it seems like the ants were also helping women with these unwanted pregnancies. and there's the the line in particular was when a woman in town quarreled with her lover, when she found herself pregnant by someone who wasn't her husband,
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: or discovered that the man she'd married was unfaithful as a hound, they'd be at the Owen's back door. So like there were like when they talked about desperate women. Yes, love was a big part of it, but there was also like sounds like maybe they some of them were seeking revenge. Some
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: of them were seeking help with their pregnancies, and we know what
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that usually includes. And you know, somebody who just in general is not happy with a man.
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, I think that we see this very often with witches or people who are believed to be witches throughout history
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: and in our fantasy books, but certainly in real life, women who, as we said, don't fit the normal standards, but also maybe women that are just doing something to support other women, women who know science.
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: And are literally just doing something that takes the power away from men and gives it to the women to have control over their own lives. So, you know, Aunt Frances and Aunt Jet, they're just OG feminists, really.
Kate: 100%. Yeah, like you
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: said, I love what you said about just giving women more control over their lives,
Rachel: Yeah, but I specifically saying that I think that they are pro choice. And yeah,
Kate: yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Rachel: is it always a spell or is it just knowing science? You know what I mean? Like they might have just
Kate: Mm.
Rachel: known the right herbs from their garden to solve a problem.
Kate: Right. Yeah. No, that that piece of it does just seem like they're they're like botanists as well and
Rachel: Right.
Kate: are just able to help women with all kinds of of issues like that. But yeah, so it it is, it's a combination of things. Some
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: of them were overt spells like the love spells.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: and then yeah, some of it was just helping women in need.
Rachel: well I think that covers most of the magic that we're seeing in the book. So why don't we spend some time chatting about how the book differs from the movie? And generally the overall story is pretty consistent. The characters are consistent, but there are some big differences. so Sally's love spells. In the movie, both of Sally's love interests are tied to a love spell. Her first love, Michael, as we said in the book, it was slightly implied that the ants might have conjured him. In the movie, that definitely happened. So he kind of comes out of nowhere. It's insta-love for both of them. so when he dies, Sally shows up at the aunt's house and blames the curse, saying it was the curse, wasn't it? And they reveal that they cast a spell to help her find him. And this yes,
Kate: So it was kind of both.
Rachel: so it's kind of both, but this is the catalyst that makes Sally hate magic. So it explains why Sally is not practicing. Whereas we don't get that in the book. We don't get a reason that she's not practicing magic. And she says that her children will never be raised at it. So this is really sort of the start of the overall plot of the story, right? then there's also the true love spell, Amas Veritas. So as a child in the movie, Sally sees that woman, casts that love spell, as we saw, and she's very put off by it. Jillian's like, I can't wait to fall in love. Sally's Disgusted by it because she had to kill a bird as part of the spell. And in the book, Sally does become a vegetarian because of that scene. But to avoid love and the challenges that come with it in the movie, young Sally casts this spell for true love and attempts to summon a man who doesn't exist. So she tries to make someone that couldn't possibly exist. He has two different colored eyes, his favorite shape is a star, he can flip pancakes. I feel like she needed to maybe read some I mean she was a child, so it makes sense that she hadn't yet, but like maybe she needed to read some monster romances because I don't think that she went far enough.
Kate: No, she definitely didn't. It was it was the it was a child's version of a a an impossible man.
Rachel: Yes. Yeah. so as it turns out, she conjured Gary. Another big plot point difference is that Jillian spends the book thinking she accidentally killed Jimmy by microdosing him with the ant's nightshade. And when the ants arrive in town to help solve the Jimmy problem, they're like, that was not even enough to kill a dog. Like, you did not kill him. He died from some other. Cause, right? So she feels this immense guilt, the whole book, and it's absolved at the end of it, right? Whereas in the movie, Sally kills Jimmy explicitly twice. And it was Sally
Kate: Yes.
Rachel: doing exactly what Sally does, taking care of her sister. But there's no sort of gray area here. It was in her sister's defense, but it was twice that she killed him.
Kate: Yeah, no, there w there was no if, ands or buts about that. She poisoned him and then she hit him with a frying pan. So
Rachel: Yeah. Also in the movie, we see that Jillian becomes actually possessed by Jimmy. I know we kind of said Jillian was possessed by him as a reference to like how much she loved him and couldn't get away from him, but she we she's actually possessed by him in the movie. And yeah, his actual ghost.
Kate: Like his actual ghost is inside of her body. Like they had to like basically perform an exorcism. So
Rachel: Yes. And then Jimmy is ultimately banished when Sally activates the phone list for the women in town and they all gather to do an exorcism. Whereas in the book, the ants just kind of do their potion and that solves it.
Kate: Mm-hmm. There was also that funny moment like during the the exorcism of Jimmy's ghost in the movie where Gary comes in and he's got his like like detective's badge or whatever it is and
Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Kate: like like Jimmy grabs it and it burns him and I was like, what in the copaganda is this? But it was a little weird.
Rachel: I know, wasn't that weird? Like I didn't know if it was because it was silver or because
Kate: I forget if if Gary said it or Sally said it, but they were having a discussion and saying that the badge has the power that you think that it has.
Rachel: So hm, that's kind of goofy.
Kate: Yeah, so it was it was basically just like like it I think they were thinking about it like metaphorically of
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: you know, the badge has power because you believe that it does. you
Rachel: Interesting.
Kate: know, in the sense of like how cops have power or how people like respond to a badge.
Rachel: Mm.
Kate: But then it ended up being like a physical power when it came to Jimmy. So that part was a little goofy, I think.
Rachel: Yeah, yeah. I hope that they don't do that in the new movie.
Kate: Yeah, I hope Gary becomes like a a farmer or something instead of a cop once he and Sally are together.
Rachel: I mean, I would like to see him say that the justice system is flawed and I don't want to be a part of it anymore.
Kate: Maybe he'll continue to take it down from the inside and and help women like Sally who are in a b in a jam.
Rachel: Good point. Good point.
Kate: one of the biggest things for me that stood out between the movie and the book was that the magic is so much more obvious in the movie. Like they
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: are clearly witches, they have the spell book, they like Sally is like flipping through the spell book to try to find a solution when Michael dies, and like like they're they're practicing spells as kids in like the kitchen in the movie, and I don't know, it's just much more overt that way.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: And like we've been talking about this whole time, the magic in the book is very subtle. There's some things that are more overt than others, but for the most part, it's just kind of implied, and you can come to your own conclusions about where the influence is coming from magic versus something else. and so I kind of just I loved that subtlety
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in the book. I thought it was an interesting take on a book about witches because a lot of times again we do see it in a much more obvious way, like
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: they presented it in the movie, but the beauty of this book was the the subtlety of it.
Rachel: Yeah, I agree. There were also a few sort of small differences in in the movie from the book. So the setting, Sally stays at the aunt's house on Magnolia Street, basically the entire movie, apart from when she's married to Michael. so the most of the book takes place at their house. And as such, Jimmy is buried under the rose bushes at the aunt's house, and that's sort of like a famous thing from the movie. But in the book, he's buried underneath the lilac bushes. So I thought that was interesting that
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: they changed the flowers. Jillian overtly does magic throughout the movie, including like little tricks on the teachers and parents that bully Sally, which I enjoyed.
Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. At one point she tries to like poison Gary when
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: he comes over. Like when she's still trying to get them out of this jam of of being blamed for Jimmy's death. she like works with the the girls, her nieces to create like a poison drink for Gary for him to drink. And then the girls take it and they Right, right. It's true.
Rachel: Well, it's just to make it him go away. It was just to make him go away. It wasn't poison, yeah.
Kate: Well, so it yeah, it was it was something they brewed a potion to get rid of Gary
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: and and the girls ended up like throwing it into the ocean or something, you know. So
Rachel: Yes.
Kate: it I did I did kind of like some of the like more whimsical parts of it. At
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: one point we also saw Sally like stirring her tea, you know, with with her finger, you know, by magic, which I know is one of the things that you love.
Rachel: That is my favorite magical thing ever when the teacup stirs itself.
Kate: Yeah, that that whimsy. So I I
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: will say the book was v very dark compared to the movie in that way. The movie had some darkness to it. You know, you still saw like parts of the abusive relationship with Jimmy and what a piece of shit he was and all that. But there was also a lot of whimsy to it, which was nice.
Rachel: Yes. Mm-hmm. I agree. I agree. And I I wonder if they did that intentionally to broaden the audience, because in the nineties there were a lot of like witchy movies happening. That that's when The Coven came out, which was a much darker witchy movie. so I'm wondering if they and you know, I guess the Heathers, well, it's not really witchy. But again, it could be a to I I do think that it was probably to broaden the audience a little bit more, is what I'm assuming.
Kate: Right. Yeah, I feel like the book was was bordering more on like rated R territory. the movie is s solidly P G thirteen.
Rachel: Yeah, alright, then we have the Midnight Margaritas scene. So this is a beloved scene that doesn't happen in the books. That being said, they do have margaritas in the books. So in the books, Gillian makes margaritas to pull Sally out of her depressive state after Kylie's attack. So there are margaritas in the book and they drank them in the garden, but they don't have that midnight margarita scene with the ants that we all love.
Kate: That is such a fun scene in the movie that I love because it also it comes with the that f fun song that gets stuck
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in your head.
Rachel: another difference in the movie versus the book that I think we need to touch on so that we're not all very confused on September eleventh is that they switched Kylie Ann Antonia in the movie. So
Kate: They did. And I don't I why did they do that?
Rachel: I don't know. I don't know the reason for it.
Kate: It didn't feel necessary.
Rachel: The only thing that I could think is that they wanted those actresses. So Antonia is played by Evan Rachel Wood, and Kylie is they could have just switched
Kate: Yeah, so that that's the thing. It's they they changed their physical appearances and their ages. So Kylie is the redhead in the movie and she's
Rachel: Yes. Yeah.
Kate: the older one. The only thing that I was thinking of a reason for is because Kylie is more magical, like she's more powerful with her magic. So maybe in they were thinking in the movie that it would make more sense for that to be coming from the older daughter.
Rachel: Well, what I was thinking was that they wanted that actress to be the more central part. So that's why they had they kept Kylie as being the one who could see the auras, right? And
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: that's I'm assuming that's why they sw swapped Whereas like the younger sister was just like very cute and had these cute little moments, but she wasn't the one that saw Jimmy. Right.
Kate: Right. But yeah, it it it seemed like a a
Rachel: Yeah.
Kate: bit of an odd choice. But also the fact that in the movie they don't age the same way. So
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: in in the movie, there's still young girls at the end. versus in the book, they go from being very young to, you know, being teenagers. And I mean, I forget exactly how old Antonia is by the end, but you know, she's dating a guy at Harvard and you know, so like yeah.
Rachel: I think she's seventeen. Yeah. Yeah.
Kate: So so yeah, so that that age progression, which I understand is is harder to do in a movie, but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: that that time jump didn't really happen.
Rachel: Yeah. to add?
Kate: So again, I I I've always loved the movie.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I only read the book for the first time, like for this purpose.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I loved the book too, I will say. I love its take on a story about witches. but
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: the movie, you know, they're very different and there's some things that again are maybe a little bit goofy, but it will always have a special place in my heart. it's it's just one of those ones. I enjoy watching it every year.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Kate: I think the cast is great. I love Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman and I mean the the vibes are immaculate in the movie. The music is great. Like
Rachel: Yes. Yes. I know. I love it. I watch it every year at least once. I love it. It's it just puts you in a good
Kate: Mm-hmm.
Rachel: mood. It is the perfect like end of summer going into spooky season movie. Like it's just perfect,
Kate: Yes, yes.
Rachel: perfect timing to watch right now. If you haven't yet, definitely recommend that you watch it soon. well, this brings us to the end of our practical magic episode. And we want to hear from you. Do you have a preference over the book or the movie? Any differences or details you wish we would have discussed? we can only squeeze so much into one episode, so certainly certainly
Kate: Yeah, we tried, but
Rachel: tried, but there's a lot to unpack. I mean, that is one thing about Alice Hoffman's writing. She knows how to pack a punch into one sentence. She just stuffs so much information.
Kate: yeah.
Rachel: I mean it's it's very interesting and written so beautifully, but there's so much to cover. so yeah, drop us a comment or a message with your thoughts.
Kate: And if you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to follow us on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a five-star review if you can, because we're still a new podcast and your reviews, likes, and follows go a long way to helping us grow.
Rachel: All right, join us next week as we get to know the ants better. That's right, we're joining Jet, Franny, and their brother Vincent in nineteen sixties Manhattan in The Rules of Magic. See you next week.
Kate: Bye.
