Ryan Does: For this episode, we are diving into the sticky, grotesque, and heartbreaking world of 1980s body horror. This is Deconstructing Horror. My name is Ryan Doze, and today we are diving into David Cronenberg's 1986 masterpiece, The Fly. Before we get into all the the gross madness of this movie and Jeff Goldblum's transformation into a beautiful creature, I wanted to welcome a friend that has not been on. the show thus far. It's my friend Sari from Bear Camp. Sari, welcome to deconstructing horror.
Sarey: Thanks for having me, Ryan. I'm very excited to be here.
Ryan Does: Sari, since you are a a first time guest, I wanted you to just introduce yourself and tell folks a little bit about what lens you're bringing to our discussion of the fly. And then I I'll just kinda tell people how we got connected and some some some of our like things that we've gotten to work together.
Sarey: Yeah, totally. Well, I do a lot of things. so I have a company umbrella that I call Secret Art Project, secret art project dot com. And under that umbrella I do three things. One is visual art. So I don't know if you do that about me now, but I'm like a sculptor and I make like weird creepy
Ryan Does: Sweet.
Sarey: dolls, creepy dolls and sculptures and things. And and that was just my I need an immediate creative fix because I'm also a filmmaker, which is Secret art projects is a product production company, and movies take a long time and require a lot of effort and money and people a lot of the time. So, you know, I started doing the art stuff to kind of get more of a quick fix of creativity. Then yeah, so I'm a filmmaker. I have a background. I actually had a first career in the entertainment industry as a talent manager, and one of our clients was Rob Zombie. And so I worked for 10 years very closely with Rob, and so he would do like a tour. and an album cycle and then he would figure out a movie deal. And that started around the time he was making the deal to do the f the Halloween remake remake. Very controversial.
Ryan Does: Cool.
Sarey: and then he did Halloween 2. And then I worked on a movie he did called The Lords of Salem, which is a smaller film, but that was with
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: Blumhouse and and a couple other movies. So that was like where I over that period of time I kind of fell out of love with the music industry. I didn't it was making
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: me bummed about music. And I love music, you know, but like I couldn't go to a concert and just enjoy it. You know what I mean? but the film side of things, like when Rob would make a movie or we were working on a film project, I was all in. Like I was like, this is so fun and cool. And I've always loved films too. So when I stopped working there, this is Intro is getting long, but I'll try to abridge the next section. When I stopped working
Ryan Does: No worries.
Sarey: that job, you know, I was figuring out what I wanted to do next and I wanted to get more in touch with my creativity, but I also wanted to figure out what I actually believed about God, having grown up with like very conservative, reformed, like fundamentalist view of the Bible, all that kind of stuff.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: So I was like, I'm gonna go to seminary and figure out God and Yeah.
Ryan Does: A small goal. Something manageable.
Sarey: Yeah. W with this two year two year master's degree, right? I kinda thought I would just like dive in. I'm like, wait, am I still a Calvinist or not? You know. But then
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: kind of kind of and as I I went to seminary, I went to therapy. I I started making my own independent projects,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I collection of poetry, I produced film with my now partner, and various other things, but ended up through that experience getting connected with the community that includes our mutual friends. I also so I got the theology master's degree and I also ended up working in the psychology department at this graduate school and got really connected with a lot of nerdy people. So if you go to my website you'll see I also do consulting and I apply my
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: communications and media skills to a lot of academic projects too. So I have this sort of like academic lens and theology lens I can bring to
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: things, but I also have this like storyteller kind of v film cinematic aesthetic kind of mind f mind frame too. So that's
Ryan Does: I
Sarey: my story.
Ryan Does: So I love that for well, two main reasons that came up. So you may be thinking, like, this is a horror project that Ryan's working on. The reason why he asked Sari to come on was, her connection with Rob Zombie. So let's talk about horror. I did not know that until she just said that.
Sarey: You didn't even know that part.
Ryan Does: So I was like, god, that's so that's so freaking cool. and another thing
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: is like We've kind of been like orbiting in the same circles for a f a few years now with Theology Beer Camp and I
Sarey: Yeah, but I haven't been able to go for a couple of years, so I'm excited I'll
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I'd be able to re return this year after being gone a couple of years.
Ryan Does: I I'm I'm so excited to hang out with you and Stevo are coming. this I'm so excited. Like, I don't think I don't think
Sarey: Yeah, Steve was coming too. Yeah, my partner. Yeah.
Ryan Does: Stevo and I have gotten to hang out since the first beer camp that we went together, North Carolina. my gosh. I I
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah, he totally remembers you. He totally remembers you.
Ryan Does: I you guys are phenomenal and you're both you're both filmmakers. So
Sarey: Aw. That's true. I should add, I should add briefly, this year, the first half of this year was completely gobbled up by his first feature-length film, which isn't a horror film, but it's a lovely experimental family drama that has some
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: documentary aspects and some scripted aspects. It's kind of a hybrid, and it's about his family's his family in Panama, his family's from Panama, and it's about you know, the intergener generational trauma and how that works out in his family and how that affects his him as a father now. And so we got to finish that film in Mexico. It's bilingual, it's English and Spanish. And we got to go to Mexico this summer to finish it. And so we were like raising the money, doing the Seed and Spark, you know, crowdfunding thing, you know, knocking on doors and and so hopefully we'll be able to start showing that movie soon too. It's called Fortaleza. Which yeah.
Ryan Does: so excited. I'm I'm s I'm so excited to like to to to
Sarey: Ha ha ha ha.
Ryan Does: dig into like the filmmaking side of the fly because there's a lot of like practical stuff in it.
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: barely anything that's not practical. but
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: for those of you that are wondering like Sari and I got to work toget I say work together on a panel. I got to sit at a table and hear Sari and another acquaintance of ours, Dr. James McGrath, discuss Star Trek at a level that I had never really like been on. And I was just like, I I like next generation a lot, and I I think Picard's awesome. And they're just like taking it. Like I was given an inch and they took it a mile. it was awesome experience. And we get to be on a
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: panel this year at the Allogy Beer Camp explicitly about horror and I could not be more excited. Like I am I am giddy every time I think
Sarey: What a lineup, dude. I was so excited when Cutter Callaway said he was gonna be there. Cause that's like be afraid so good. He's he was one of my professors when I got my theology master's. That's how we first met.
Ryan Does: Awesome.
Sarey: But we've worked on a ton of projects since I graduated together. And and we're I'm gonna it looks like I'm gonna help him with the next season of the show he did for CT. but it's not gonna be about horror. It's gonna be about a different genre. I'll let him tell that. And
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: then so he's he's awesome and then
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: who else we got? Leah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: And and and Leah Robinson's joining us as well. And y you you are again, the the intro the intro, people are really getting to know what we're doing. The the the whole kind of reason I wanted to get you on an episode was not just to pick your brain about horror, was now I have had an individual horror discussion with every person we're doing this panel with. Cutter's been on for episode,
Sarey: good.
Ryan Does: and Leah's been on for a few, and now like we're com We're completing the the group.
Sarey: We're gonna be like, with our powers combined, best panel ever. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I I I do wanna jump into The Fly, this fantastic film
Sarey: Yeah, let's do it.
Ryan Does: that I ashamedly watched for the first time when Sari chose chose this. I I loved so many parts of this film, but I wanted to know, Sari, real quick, how were you introduced to The Fly?
Sarey: That is a good question. I don't think I could remember the first time I saw it. I was a sci-fi fan from way back when. And gosh, I feel like I must have seen it as a teenager. because I have certain things that felt scandalous. I think maybe my dad was pretty you know, was always bringing strange films into the house, and maybe and I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: was like Like of the homeschool families, like at church, I was like allowed to watch The Simpsons, which was like very taboo, you know, and my dad would like let us watch stuff that no one else I knew was allowed to watch. And my mom would kind of be doing like the Marge Simpson, like I don't know. but anyway, I feel like I feel like I probably saw that 'cause one of the things that sticks out is there's that very like sexually charged sequence. in it and I always like, you know, I feel like
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I remember being a little uncomfortable with that whole sequence of things and just the way that the image of him like regurgitating goo on to to like yeah, like that's really seared in to my memory
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: in a way that feels like it happened when I was young. So anyway, yeah. But it is I have seen
Ryan Does: It's it's so that's
Sarey: it. a bunch of times. I don't know how many, but I've seen it a bunch of times throughout the years and I find it very rewatchable. I find it very beautiful. Like the way that it's shot looks so good. And the set design and the production design and everything. I love all of that stuff. So I've seen it many times in like, you know, Jeff Goldblum, I love him and in this and
Ryan Does: He's a he's a walking vibe. Like
Sarey: Yeah, just that image of him like squatting down naked in the pod, you know, very strategically angled so that you don't get anything, you know, you don't want to get it's just I iconic. Yeah
Ryan Does: Yes. I I love I love when he gets out of the pot. They have the chair specifically right there.
Sarey: very strategically placed, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: my god, I love that. I I am gonna give people a few details about the film, a brief synopsis of it, and then I really wanna pick Sari's brain about not only kind of the some of the filmmaking things that jumped out to her, but also the the theme of going through a like an aper a personal apocalypse. That is the gonna be the theme of our panel at Beer Camp this year, and we've discussed this theme with a few different people with a few different films and I actually think this movie is fairly apocalyptic in in the in the truest sense of the word and we've talked about this with like Josh Patterson being like apocalypse isn't always like this end of the world, you know the robots rose up and took over or the zombies, you know, you know are all over the landscape. It really is what does this situation, what does this thing reveal about you or reveal about a situation? And I'm excited to dig into that. So this film is
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: directed by David Cronenberg, stars Jeff Goldblum and Gina Davis, and really only a couple other people. it's a very stripped back, small cast movie. it was released August fifteenth of nineteen eighty-six, which means we just missed the fortieth anniversary. of this film.
Sarey: Okay.
Ryan Does: So I didn't even think about that as we were getting ready to do
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: this. but the the fly follows Jeff is Jeff. It follows it follows Jeff Goldman.
Sarey: Follows Jeff. Yeah.
Ryan Does: the fly follows Seth Brundle, a brilliant scientist who builds a revolutionary teleportation device. During a reckless self test, a common housefly slips into the pod with him, causing the computer to fuse their DNA at a molecular level. While Seth initially experiences a surge of superhuman strength, a fantastic gymnastics routine, and an uncontrollable this uncontrollable mutation begins to reveal itself as a hybrid, a human insect hybrid. He's humanity rapidly kind of just deteriorates and decays, while his partner Veronica, Gina Davis's character, watches this horrifying transformation.
Sarey: my god. A
Ryan Does: And it my gosh. I can't
Sarey: fly just landed on your hat for a second as you're saying that. That was crazy.
Ryan Does: we are as we record this, we are mere weeks out from beer camp. I cannot go through this right now. I I just can't do it. I can't have my fingernails falling off.
Sarey: Literally landed on you while you're saying fly. That's great. I love that.
Ryan Does: This film does end in a very dour, like downer, heartbreaking final conflict with Veronica and what becomes known as the Brundlefly. So, Sari, as a filmmaker, what about David Cronenberg's l approach to this very zany concept? And and it is based on literature, it's based on a previous film from I believe the fifties. But those are like the film from the fifties is rather hokey. This film is very in your
Sarey: Can't be, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ryan Does: face about how gross it is. what about Cronenberg's approach jumped out to you?
Sarey: Well, I love Cronenberg in general. I love how gross he is. because I think the like one of the aesthetic of bringing together and some people might not see it this way, but he's not just trying to repel you with his grossness. There's also something beautiful tied into it and I love when something beautiful and something gross sort of intersect.
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: there's something that is just so like that is life to me. It is the beautiful and the grotesque
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: colliding repeatedly. and especially with bodies, like bodies are beautiful and grotesque. Like if you think of something like I think like I think of like one time in the science class when I was a teenager. dissecting an elk eyeball and lip which is gross but it's got this
Ryan Does: We just got frogs where I came from. We didn't get anything cool like that.
Sarey: but you know it's got that like it's shimmery, it's iridescent, it's got these like you know, like the the veins or whatever, like branching off like fractals or whatever, you know. And and anyway, I just I just love that. So there's something about that like aesthetically that really calls to me. But at the same time, he always is tying in these like really these existential themes about what it means to be human and mortality. And so it's not it's not a shallow in your face. Look at isn't this gross, you know? Doesn't it make you want to scream or
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: cover your eyes? It's not just like a s it's not sitting out there for shock value. It's sitting out there To make you like think about your humanity in a new way. And and I love I there's something really exciting about how dramatic this film is too. Like, this is
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: where the, you know, be afraid, be very afraid, you know, like that quote from Gina Davis that is so famous.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: It's like there's so many really dramatic moments. It's almost like an opera, like And like you said, it's tragic at the end, you know. It's
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: got all these really dramatic pieces to it with no, you know, unabashedly dramatic, you know, like over-the-topness that I appreciate too. It's just literally and figuratively gut spilling. so anyway, I that's what that's how I feel about it.
Ryan Does: I love that you you mentioned how it it really is like for the first hour or so until the transformation like begins and that like he does the test on himself out of his own insecurity. He does the test on himself because he doesn't want to wait for the the test subject baboon to come back from the testing. I just this movie was like it's like a melodrama romance. Almost like
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: almost into like that Hallmark, like kind of that Hallmark thriller where she has an obsessive ex-boyfriend
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: who works with her and and is her editor, but he's all insecure
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: because she's with this new guy, and the new guy's insecure
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: because she might be going back to the old guy. I'm like, where is the monster? Like, what is happening here? But man, that
Sarey: Yes,
Ryan Does: that last half an hour just does everything it can to make you as uncomfortable as possible. And I think
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: a l a lot of that comes from how Cronenberg puts specifically Ronnie and Seth through these moments of revealing who they are underneath, revealing who they what their true nature is. So when when you watch this movie and we we're gonna be talking about personal apocalypse through the lens of some more modern movies at Beer Camp. But when we look back at a movie it's forty years old now, how do we see a personal apocalypse be revealed in Not not just Seth as he's turning into this Brundelfly, but also Veronica as she gets pregnant, contemplates an abortion to get this completely out of her life. How how do you see those characters being revealed through these apocalyptic s scenarios?
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. I I think I've read that well, first of all, there's sort of something that feels very relevant to her right now, which is the the the hubris of the scientist and the sort of between and also the competition between her between the Goldman character and the ex-boyfriend character. It's like kinda like who's who's the smartest, you know, and And of course that feels really relevant right now with like AI and all our tech oligarchs, you know, and and like I heard a quote of someone talking about like how, you know, not e like eight years ago or ten years ago or whatever, a lot of them were talking about wanting to save the environment and upset
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: that, you know, we left the Paris Accord and all the the things like that they used to care like, but how through time and the pressure of money and competition and all the whatever. Like they're now just like kissing Trump's ass or whatever. Like just to make like everyone's in competition to get to this
Ryan Does: Just a little.
Sarey: like super intelligence, like must f you know,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: must create God is apparently what everyone's trying to do. Like so anyway, I don't really want to
Ryan Does: That's never ended terribly.
Sarey: no I know. Exactly, exactly. So there I just wanted to draw that kind of like obvious that's like sitting out there, but that's really not the most interesting thing to me. I remember reading that Cronenberg he does really have this thing with like mortality and watching people change as they get older. I remember reading that he was talking about you know, watching someone die of a disease. And this is at a time w where the AIDS epidemic was really prominent, you know. So ha watching and if you've ever been close to someone who like got cancer or something, like the way that their bodies transform into like something unrecognizable is like it's a death it's a death before the death, you know? It's like gr grieving the the person you once knew. so so anyway, yeah, talk about personal apocalypse. like Jeff Goldwyn's humanity is being gradually kind of ripped away. And she, Veronica Rani, she's desperately kind of trying to hold on for a while, like to save, save someone who's on this trajectory. I also you know, I see sort of parallels with like addiction as well. You know, like if you've ever seen someone, you know, fall into addiction and how they they can become
Ryan Does: Sadly I have.
Sarey: unrecognizable, you know, and trying to externally kind of help them hold on to the person you once knew them to be or whatever, you know. So there's all those really kind of I mean those are sad, sad things. the way that the people we love sometimes transform into unrecognizable things over time and how much that can affect us and our sense of identity. whether that's a relationship that failed or, you know, since we're on this podcast, you could talk about the institutions that we once identified with. And
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: you know, one might argue that it's like, have they changed or are they just revealing their true selves? you know, some sort of like r religious institutions or, you know, the people who when I was growing up were the my exemplars for life, you know,
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: the people who I thought were the smartest, the kindest, the safest. I don't feel like that anymore about them.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: not to say they're all bad. I I wouldn't say that, but my vision of them has been transfigured into something different. And that really
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: affected my view of myself. I guess that I the I've been thinking about this a lot because I'm actually part of this art show in a group art show in Portland in October and the theme is nightmares. And I was thinking about what my contribution was going to be or what I was going to be commenting. I was started to think about I didn't want to just be obvious, kind of what you think, like really dark imagery from nightmares, but so I started to think about like what kind of nightmares I've had in my life, you know, and a lot of a lot of women, especially if you've thought about getting pregnant, have been pregnant, they will have a dream where there's a baby, but the baby is not a baby.
Ryan Does: Hi.
Sarey: like very common, you know, right? Or the baby comes out and it's all it's like walking and talking immediately. You know, it's like really wild, crazy things. I don't know if like your partner has experienced this, but or if yeah, go
Ryan Does: What's
Sarey: ahead. I've been monologuing.
Ryan Does: Well honestly, Sarah, kid when so my wife and I have two two kids and then they're they're nine and ten now, they're they're rather big. they eat a lot, which feels it's like stop eating all my stuff. But then Kim, I remember there were multiple times where she would wake up during one of their one of the kids' pregnancies and she'd be like, heavy breathing and I'd be like, What what's the matter? She's like I don't like how that felt. And it was and it was this internal feeling. She was trying to externalize it. And I like I I don't know what that feeling is like. I don't know what those emotions are. And I would try to be, you know
Sarey: There must be something so primal about it because I think it's so common. It like this fear that you know, this you're trying to like your body is making a human and the fear that it might be something that less than human is terrifying.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Well The nightmare that Gina Davis has in this movie was one of the scariest parts of the movie for me. Pro probably it was actually the only part that scared me because I knew what the Brundle Fly looked like beforehand. So, but I didn't know Gina Davis's like story. So when they take her into this delivery room, I was like, this is all happening rather quick. And then they do the delivery, and I'm just like, my god,
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: what is that? And she like is constantly trying. Toward end of movie, she's just begging to have this this thing, you know, what she doesn't even know, taken out. She just wants to be done with it. She's kind of she's seen Seth become what he's gonna become, and she doesn't really want in that revealing of who he is, she doesn't want that really to be attached to her in any way. And I it was incredibly visceral, her performance.
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. That I there are sequels to the fly that are lesser, but they are and I think 'cause I think I've only seen maybe I think there's a fly two and a fly three. And I think
Ryan Does: really? Okay.
Sarey: that they I don't think Cronenberg directed them. I will have to check on that. But they do follow this thread of
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: something it has something to do with the baby. I can't remember how it plays out or how they swing it to where she has the baby. You know, like I I can't remember, but it it they are lesser, but they're kind of fun, but not it not truly like y ki kinda
Ryan Does: B Schlock movies. Yeah.
Sarey: I don't know. I I'll let you form your opinion. But anyway, they do file the they do follow this anxiety of the film. so yeah.
Ryan Does: So with I guess more with like Seth's part of the film, there are a few
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: different times he references the flesh. And and he he
Sarey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: like he obsesses about the this this is this is the flesh. You don't understand the flesh, you don't you don't get the primordial power
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: of the flesh. Those little monologues feel like Cronenberg's trying to like say something about bodies and kind of the pri like you you said primal, like the primal instincts of bodies and the flesh. Did you did you take anything from that, Sari? 'Cause that was it stood out to me, but then I was like, why is this standing out to me? Maybe a smarter person can figure this out.
Sarey: Yeah, yeah. I I don't know. let me talk around that for a second. I I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: think 'cause also there's the like I said, like he gets really horny too and he he starts doing these gymnastics. Like he has this yeah,
Ryan Does: It's a lot of sugar.
Sarey: he has a lot of sugar. He gets a sugar rush. I think there's something there about like our complicated relationship with our body and he sort of turns into this like there's like this unchecked kind of male ego thing that happens where he is showing
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: off and he's like thinks he's the shit, you know, and and you know, when she stops sleeping with it him, he has to find someone else to sleep with and
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: yeah, so this sort of complicated like The flesh as a vehicle for I don't know, like finding your value in some way, like I'm the strongest, I'm the
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: sexiest, I'm the s yeah, you know, I'm the most acrobatic the
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: flips and stuff. I don't know. But but then the betrayal of the flesh, right? Like it's our
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: flesh is also what It like he acts like he's immor he's gonna immortal when r like right after that the deterioration is so quick, the you know and yeah.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Well and then like at a certain part like his teeth start to fall out, his fingernails he he pulls off his fingernails. Right, yeah, that like it's incredibly it's incredibly common. and
Sarey: Yeah. Another common nightmare, huh? Another common nightmare. Teeth falling Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: then like he literally doesn't look like himself anymore, but at certain
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: points he tries to like it's almost like he's he's His hubris is oscillating back and forth between being horrified about what he's becoming and then just being
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: reserved to what he's becoming. He's like, it'll be like a kid's show. And I was like, okay,
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: didn't see that coming, that he's gonna film himself, so that people can learn for posterity. It's like, dude, you're falling apart. You're lit like you're collecting pieces
Sarey: Literally.
Ryan Does: of yourself in a medicine cabinet. And like
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the flesh is constantly just like It it feels like a character in and of it in and of itself. And I think that's probably
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: something I as I dig more into Cronenberg films, that's something I will become more assured of from what I've heard is that the flesh is kind of a runner in his in his films, if I have that correct, Jerry. For sure. I mean I know he's known as body horror, but I
Sarey: yeah. They yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I need to find out what that means like for myself, you know, personally.
Sarey: Well, I mean the yeah, the I mean the body that's how we receive some of our greatest pleasures in life and the greatest tragedies and pains and it's like the home for all of those experiences, all these sensory experiences, some of which are horrific and traumatic and some of which are, you know, plu the greatest pleasures you know, available
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: to humanity. So I think there's really something in that tension there. I'm trying to think there's the a more recent film that was so clearly about death and dying, the sh was it called The Shrouds. I think that was his most recent one.
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: but that, you know, it's it's obviously something he is really interested in.
Ryan Does: So we with
Sarey: Because 'cause I think one of his first movies, what was his first movie? It was the horniest movie ever. I I think it's kind of like like everyone gets like Yeah, like everyone gets like
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: a disease that makes them just wanna like have an orgy, you know? So it's like you think about like your twenties when everyone's like it's it's just like horny and you think you're never gonna die. Like you defin you know, and then and then you're no. No.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Like it doesn't even cross your mind that you may die. Yeah.
Sarey: And then and then all of a sudden You're forty and you're like, Wait, something's happening
Ryan Does: feel terrible. Like my my body feels terrible.
Sarey: Yeah, I threw out my back when I was like cleaning the living room. Yeah.
Ryan Does: literally it was a few months ago I think I sent I think I sent Steve O a message that said I threw out my back getting out of bed I hate myself and it's like that's like that's the stories that I exchanged with guys who are almost 40 now it's like we're all falling apart
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: and we just feel like death. but I I truly it truly is
Sarey: It's a rude awakening. It's a rude awakening. And I am like, no, I am young. And I am like I I'm in this mode right right now I'm in a mode where I am at like I don't want to say at war. It's not that dramatic, but I am like doing all the research about skincare. I'm going to the physical therapist to be like, I don't want my back to go out when I'm cleaning my living room. Like what can I do? Give me all the exercises. I will do them. Like
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: Like I feel like I'm like ready for battle to like slow this shit down. And that's just where I'm at right now. Me yeah, exactly. Syria versus death, yeah.
Ryan Does: Sari Sari versus Aging. I love it. Well, I guess that kinda like that lands perfectly well with like the last thing I wanted to talk about, which is body horror as a vehicle for personal apocalypse. You and I were kind of just casually bringing up the fact that our bodies have reminded us that it's revealing something about aging and you know we
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: should take better care of ourselves. with like with body horror in the Cronenberg style and what it reveals about Brundle and what it reveals about Veronica, why why does why is body horror so perfect for this, in your opinion, Sari?
Sarey: Well, it's very visceral. you know, like talk about you use the word melodrama, I think that's good and you know, I commented on how dramatic the film is, but there's certain things about body stuff that you f you feel you have like empathy with just automatically. Like if you see someone you know, just like if you see someone fall and hit their head, you kinda go, ooh, you know? And you know, if you see someone peel their fingernails off or their teeth have fallen out, it's like you feel it in your body and it's coupled with this emotional experience of, you know, the the relationship dying too, you know.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: so I think that that's really powerful because of the it's different Y you know, it's it's just a different experience than if you're just watching someone get dumped in a movie. You're like, man, that sucks. But if
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you see someone peel their fingernails But it's also emotionally charged, you're like, Ugh
Ryan Does: And then they get dumped, you're like, Wow, that would that's really that's a downer of a day.
Sarey: It's a bad day. Yeah. Yeah, there yeah. That I think that sensory yeah, some like sensory recall, you know.
Ryan Does: shit, that would suck. Well I I think that makes perfect sense is because like a lot of horror is supposed to like it's supposed to mess with you like mentally or psychologically. It's supposed to, you know, attack
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the brain. You know, if you see a if you see a shadow in a movie and you're like, that person's about to die because the slasher villain's right around the corner. That's one part of fear and yeah, that like that has worked on me. And then there's that sensory fear of, you know, the the the music coming to a crescendo and then dropping out. Like that in a movie, I can hear that, I can see those things, but there's something about body horror for me where it's like it like it chills and like creeps up my skin like in this
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: way that no other kind of horror does. 'Cause I I
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I c I can't feel it, but I can I know what the closest approximation of that might feel like.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. I I also think that like in my I'm just thinking I was my you know, I'm remembering I'm an artist and a lot of my sculptures are characters that I create and there is a body horror element to them.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: where, you know, something's off about their arms or their nose is missing or you know, there's always something off and for me it is a cool way to explore identity because I A big question for me and a theme I like to explore is how we how people reveal themselves and perform identity or like trying to find more authentic versions and expressions of yourself
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: along the way. And the way you express your identity sometimes is like this hybrid of who you really are in the most authentic sense, and we could talk about what. authentic self is or whatever if if such a thing exists. And this hybrid between this like kind of more authentic expression and the expectations of your family, the world, the institutions you're part of. And you're like you're
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: trying, you know, where you're trying to create this self that is pleasing to you and to others, you know, and
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and and helps you live the life you want to live. And so to me that sort of visor visual representation of these like part human, part robot, animal, you know, it it sort
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: of is a fun way to explore that and express that idea. so and then there's that question of like, you know, is there something true about the fly identity to like who that character is too? Like maybe that's that's a question,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: like, you know, maybe like they're There's he had maybe he had that comin', you know? Like I don't know. It's a g
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: maybe a question of the movie.
Ryan Does: Well is is there anything from our conversation, Sarah, that you feel like we need to just like put a put a wrap on before we we close out our conversation about Cronenberg's The Fly?
Sarey: Hmm, it's just truly one of my favorite movies. Like I would probably put it in my top five. So if
Ryan Does: wow.
Sarey: you haven't s if you haven't seen it, you should see it. And sorry that we just maybe ruined a lot for you. But
Ryan Does: I mean
Sarey: I don't think there's spoilers. There's not spoilers for movies that are this for forty years old. Movies. You had plenty of time.
Ryan Does: was gonna say like this this this movie is quite it it's been out for a while. and
Sarey: It's a classic, yeah. And I think that a lot of people came to it who are our age because when Jurassic Park came out when we're kids and Jeff Goldblum becomes like this everybody knows who Jeff Goldblum is because of Jurassic Park, you know, even though he had been in a lot of films before that, obviously, but for people our age, that's a lot of times our first encounter with him. And then going back and scene and then going back
Ryan Does: And what an encounter it is.
Sarey: exactly. I know, right? And then going back and seeing him like this in this movie, really, really wonderful, delightful experience.
Ryan Does: I I I I love this conversation, Sadie. Thanks for thanks for recommending the fly and I'm really glad that
Sarey: I'm glad I was the catalyst for you watching it. Thank you know, thank God.
Ryan Does: There's you know, I I feel like now I have that bond with a few different people with a f a few different kinds of movies. And it's like if I see anything
Sarey: Good. Yeah.
Ryan Does: about the fly, I know who I'm sending that meme or that reel to f for first now. So for those of you
Sarey: Yeah. Totally.
Ryan Does: that wanna check out more of what what Sari's doing, we will include like links to your website and things that you've got going on. We are you said earlier, when we were talking offline that we're doing a screening of your short film at Theology Beer Camp this year. So for those of you that are attending Beer Camp, you have the opportunity to see it. D is there anything you wanna tell people like about the film ahead of time?
Sarey: Yeah, it's a science fiction film. It's not anywhere near as gross as The Fly. It's
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: about a winemaker who has extraterrestrial origins and it was filmed here in Portland, Oregon in wine country. it's sixteen minutes and it's a weird it's a weird time. I'm really proud of it. So if you're coming to beer camp, be sure to come to the screening of the winemaker. Not sure when it'll be, but it'll be like in the evening during a like a breakout hang time and we're gonna make it fun. I actually want the session to be called Theology Wine Camp because the movie is about a winemaker
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: and because I'm not really actually into beer at all. And so hopefully it will be this little like pocket of wine in the middle of a beer time. And if so, you know, if if that appeals to you I think so too. I think so too.
Ryan Does: I I feel like they can make that happen. well see if you're if you're attending Beer Camp, please don't miss that. And also don't miss the panel that Sarah and I are gonna be doing with Cutter and Lita, where we're talking about horror
Sarey: Our panel. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: and personal apocalypse. And we're gonna be talking about it through the lens of 2026 movies. Like movies you've been hearing about. Obsession, background, under
Sarey: Some of the most popular, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: Undertone like and then we're gonna do I'm so excited for the lightning round of like have you seen this movie? What'd you think of that? Have you seen this movie? What'd you think of that? I I'm so stoked to get to just be nerds talking about horror together. So
Sarey: Totally.
Ryan Does: for those of you that have have gotten to this point in the episode, I just wanna say thank you. be Be generous a as generous as you want. Leave a comment, leave a like, subscribe, you'll never miss an episode. And just remember that no matter what's going on in your life, wouldn't no matter what's being revealed through the different situations you're going through right now, the horrors may persist, but so can we.
Sarey: Thanks for having me, Ryan. I'm very excited to be here.
Ryan Does: Sari, since you are a a first time guest, I wanted you to just introduce yourself and tell folks a little bit about what lens you're bringing to our discussion of the fly. And then I I'll just kinda tell people how we got connected and some some some of our like things that we've gotten to work together.
Sarey: Yeah, totally. Well, I do a lot of things. so I have a company umbrella that I call Secret Art Project, secret art project dot com. And under that umbrella I do three things. One is visual art. So I don't know if you do that about me now, but I'm like a sculptor and I make like weird creepy
Ryan Does: Sweet.
Sarey: dolls, creepy dolls and sculptures and things. And and that was just my I need an immediate creative fix because I'm also a filmmaker, which is Secret art projects is a product production company, and movies take a long time and require a lot of effort and money and people a lot of the time. So, you know, I started doing the art stuff to kind of get more of a quick fix of creativity. Then yeah, so I'm a filmmaker. I have a background. I actually had a first career in the entertainment industry as a talent manager, and one of our clients was Rob Zombie. And so I worked for 10 years very closely with Rob, and so he would do like a tour. and an album cycle and then he would figure out a movie deal. And that started around the time he was making the deal to do the f the Halloween remake remake. Very controversial.
Ryan Does: Cool.
Sarey: and then he did Halloween 2. And then I worked on a movie he did called The Lords of Salem, which is a smaller film, but that was with
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: Blumhouse and and a couple other movies. So that was like where I over that period of time I kind of fell out of love with the music industry. I didn't it was making
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: me bummed about music. And I love music, you know, but like I couldn't go to a concert and just enjoy it. You know what I mean? but the film side of things, like when Rob would make a movie or we were working on a film project, I was all in. Like I was like, this is so fun and cool. And I've always loved films too. So when I stopped working there, this is Intro is getting long, but I'll try to abridge the next section. When I stopped working
Ryan Does: No worries.
Sarey: that job, you know, I was figuring out what I wanted to do next and I wanted to get more in touch with my creativity, but I also wanted to figure out what I actually believed about God, having grown up with like very conservative, reformed, like fundamentalist view of the Bible, all that kind of stuff.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: So I was like, I'm gonna go to seminary and figure out God and Yeah.
Ryan Does: A small goal. Something manageable.
Sarey: Yeah. W with this two year two year master's degree, right? I kinda thought I would just like dive in. I'm like, wait, am I still a Calvinist or not? You know. But then
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: kind of kind of and as I I went to seminary, I went to therapy. I I started making my own independent projects,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: I collection of poetry, I produced film with my now partner, and various other things, but ended up through that experience getting connected with the community that includes our mutual friends. I also so I got the theology master's degree and I also ended up working in the psychology department at this graduate school and got really connected with a lot of nerdy people. So if you go to my website you'll see I also do consulting and I apply my
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: communications and media skills to a lot of academic projects too. So I have this sort of like academic lens and theology lens I can bring to
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: things, but I also have this like storyteller kind of v film cinematic aesthetic kind of mind f mind frame too. So that's
Ryan Does: I
Sarey: my story.
Ryan Does: So I love that for well, two main reasons that came up. So you may be thinking, like, this is a horror project that Ryan's working on. The reason why he asked Sari to come on was, her connection with Rob Zombie. So let's talk about horror. I did not know that until she just said that.
Sarey: You didn't even know that part.
Ryan Does: So I was like, god, that's so that's so freaking cool. and another thing
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: is like We've kind of been like orbiting in the same circles for a f a few years now with Theology Beer Camp and I
Sarey: Yeah, but I haven't been able to go for a couple of years, so I'm excited I'll
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I'd be able to re return this year after being gone a couple of years.
Ryan Does: I I'm I'm so excited to hang out with you and Stevo are coming. this I'm so excited. Like, I don't think I don't think
Sarey: Yeah, Steve was coming too. Yeah, my partner. Yeah.
Ryan Does: Stevo and I have gotten to hang out since the first beer camp that we went together, North Carolina. my gosh. I I
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah, he totally remembers you. He totally remembers you.
Ryan Does: I you guys are phenomenal and you're both you're both filmmakers. So
Sarey: Aw. That's true. I should add, I should add briefly, this year, the first half of this year was completely gobbled up by his first feature-length film, which isn't a horror film, but it's a lovely experimental family drama that has some
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: documentary aspects and some scripted aspects. It's kind of a hybrid, and it's about his family's his family in Panama, his family's from Panama, and it's about you know, the intergener generational trauma and how that works out in his family and how that affects his him as a father now. And so we got to finish that film in Mexico. It's bilingual, it's English and Spanish. And we got to go to Mexico this summer to finish it. And so we were like raising the money, doing the Seed and Spark, you know, crowdfunding thing, you know, knocking on doors and and so hopefully we'll be able to start showing that movie soon too. It's called Fortaleza. Which yeah.
Ryan Does: so excited. I'm I'm s I'm so excited to like to to to
Sarey: Ha ha ha ha.
Ryan Does: dig into like the filmmaking side of the fly because there's a lot of like practical stuff in it.
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: barely anything that's not practical. but
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: for those of you that are wondering like Sari and I got to work toget I say work together on a panel. I got to sit at a table and hear Sari and another acquaintance of ours, Dr. James McGrath, discuss Star Trek at a level that I had never really like been on. And I was just like, I I like next generation a lot, and I I think Picard's awesome. And they're just like taking it. Like I was given an inch and they took it a mile. it was awesome experience. And we get to be on a
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: panel this year at the Allogy Beer Camp explicitly about horror and I could not be more excited. Like I am I am giddy every time I think
Sarey: What a lineup, dude. I was so excited when Cutter Callaway said he was gonna be there. Cause that's like be afraid so good. He's he was one of my professors when I got my theology master's. That's how we first met.
Ryan Does: Awesome.
Sarey: But we've worked on a ton of projects since I graduated together. And and we're I'm gonna it looks like I'm gonna help him with the next season of the show he did for CT. but it's not gonna be about horror. It's gonna be about a different genre. I'll let him tell that. And
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: then so he's he's awesome and then
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: who else we got? Leah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: And and and Leah Robinson's joining us as well. And y you you are again, the the intro the intro, people are really getting to know what we're doing. The the the whole kind of reason I wanted to get you on an episode was not just to pick your brain about horror, was now I have had an individual horror discussion with every person we're doing this panel with. Cutter's been on for episode,
Sarey: good.
Ryan Does: and Leah's been on for a few, and now like we're com We're completing the the group.
Sarey: We're gonna be like, with our powers combined, best panel ever. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I I I do wanna jump into The Fly, this fantastic film
Sarey: Yeah, let's do it.
Ryan Does: that I ashamedly watched for the first time when Sari chose chose this. I I loved so many parts of this film, but I wanted to know, Sari, real quick, how were you introduced to The Fly?
Sarey: That is a good question. I don't think I could remember the first time I saw it. I was a sci-fi fan from way back when. And gosh, I feel like I must have seen it as a teenager. because I have certain things that felt scandalous. I think maybe my dad was pretty you know, was always bringing strange films into the house, and maybe and I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: was like Like of the homeschool families, like at church, I was like allowed to watch The Simpsons, which was like very taboo, you know, and my dad would like let us watch stuff that no one else I knew was allowed to watch. And my mom would kind of be doing like the Marge Simpson, like I don't know. but anyway, I feel like I feel like I probably saw that 'cause one of the things that sticks out is there's that very like sexually charged sequence. in it and I always like, you know, I feel like
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: I remember being a little uncomfortable with that whole sequence of things and just the way that the image of him like regurgitating goo on to to like yeah, like that's really seared in to my memory
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: in a way that feels like it happened when I was young. So anyway, yeah. But it is I have seen
Ryan Does: It's it's so that's
Sarey: it. a bunch of times. I don't know how many, but I've seen it a bunch of times throughout the years and I find it very rewatchable. I find it very beautiful. Like the way that it's shot looks so good. And the set design and the production design and everything. I love all of that stuff. So I've seen it many times in like, you know, Jeff Goldblum, I love him and in this and
Ryan Does: He's a he's a walking vibe. Like
Sarey: Yeah, just that image of him like squatting down naked in the pod, you know, very strategically angled so that you don't get anything, you know, you don't want to get it's just I iconic. Yeah
Ryan Does: Yes. I I love I love when he gets out of the pot. They have the chair specifically right there.
Sarey: very strategically placed, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: my god, I love that. I I am gonna give people a few details about the film, a brief synopsis of it, and then I really wanna pick Sari's brain about not only kind of the some of the filmmaking things that jumped out to her, but also the the theme of going through a like an aper a personal apocalypse. That is the gonna be the theme of our panel at Beer Camp this year, and we've discussed this theme with a few different people with a few different films and I actually think this movie is fairly apocalyptic in in the in the truest sense of the word and we've talked about this with like Josh Patterson being like apocalypse isn't always like this end of the world, you know the robots rose up and took over or the zombies, you know, you know are all over the landscape. It really is what does this situation, what does this thing reveal about you or reveal about a situation? And I'm excited to dig into that. So this film is
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: directed by David Cronenberg, stars Jeff Goldblum and Gina Davis, and really only a couple other people. it's a very stripped back, small cast movie. it was released August fifteenth of nineteen eighty-six, which means we just missed the fortieth anniversary. of this film.
Sarey: Okay.
Ryan Does: So I didn't even think about that as we were getting ready to do
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: this. but the the fly follows Jeff is Jeff. It follows it follows Jeff Goldman.
Sarey: Follows Jeff. Yeah.
Ryan Does: the fly follows Seth Brundle, a brilliant scientist who builds a revolutionary teleportation device. During a reckless self test, a common housefly slips into the pod with him, causing the computer to fuse their DNA at a molecular level. While Seth initially experiences a surge of superhuman strength, a fantastic gymnastics routine, and an uncontrollable this uncontrollable mutation begins to reveal itself as a hybrid, a human insect hybrid. He's humanity rapidly kind of just deteriorates and decays, while his partner Veronica, Gina Davis's character, watches this horrifying transformation.
Sarey: my god. A
Ryan Does: And it my gosh. I can't
Sarey: fly just landed on your hat for a second as you're saying that. That was crazy.
Ryan Does: we are as we record this, we are mere weeks out from beer camp. I cannot go through this right now. I I just can't do it. I can't have my fingernails falling off.
Sarey: Literally landed on you while you're saying fly. That's great. I love that.
Ryan Does: This film does end in a very dour, like downer, heartbreaking final conflict with Veronica and what becomes known as the Brundlefly. So, Sari, as a filmmaker, what about David Cronenberg's l approach to this very zany concept? And and it is based on literature, it's based on a previous film from I believe the fifties. But those are like the film from the fifties is rather hokey. This film is very in your
Sarey: Can't be, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Ryan Does: face about how gross it is. what about Cronenberg's approach jumped out to you?
Sarey: Well, I love Cronenberg in general. I love how gross he is. because I think the like one of the aesthetic of bringing together and some people might not see it this way, but he's not just trying to repel you with his grossness. There's also something beautiful tied into it and I love when something beautiful and something gross sort of intersect.
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: there's something that is just so like that is life to me. It is the beautiful and the grotesque
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: colliding repeatedly. and especially with bodies, like bodies are beautiful and grotesque. Like if you think of something like I think like I think of like one time in the science class when I was a teenager. dissecting an elk eyeball and lip which is gross but it's got this
Ryan Does: We just got frogs where I came from. We didn't get anything cool like that.
Sarey: but you know it's got that like it's shimmery, it's iridescent, it's got these like you know, like the the veins or whatever, like branching off like fractals or whatever, you know. And and anyway, I just I just love that. So there's something about that like aesthetically that really calls to me. But at the same time, he always is tying in these like really these existential themes about what it means to be human and mortality. And so it's not it's not a shallow in your face. Look at isn't this gross, you know? Doesn't it make you want to scream or
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: cover your eyes? It's not just like a s it's not sitting out there for shock value. It's sitting out there To make you like think about your humanity in a new way. And and I love I there's something really exciting about how dramatic this film is too. Like, this is
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: where the, you know, be afraid, be very afraid, you know, like that quote from Gina Davis that is so famous.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: It's like there's so many really dramatic moments. It's almost like an opera, like And like you said, it's tragic at the end, you know. It's
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: got all these really dramatic pieces to it with no, you know, unabashedly dramatic, you know, like over-the-topness that I appreciate too. It's just literally and figuratively gut spilling. so anyway, I that's what that's how I feel about it.
Ryan Does: I love that you you mentioned how it it really is like for the first hour or so until the transformation like begins and that like he does the test on himself out of his own insecurity. He does the test on himself because he doesn't want to wait for the the test subject baboon to come back from the testing. I just this movie was like it's like a melodrama romance. Almost like
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: almost into like that Hallmark, like kind of that Hallmark thriller where she has an obsessive ex-boyfriend
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: who works with her and and is her editor, but he's all insecure
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: because she's with this new guy, and the new guy's insecure
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: because she might be going back to the old guy. I'm like, where is the monster? Like, what is happening here? But man, that
Sarey: Yes,
Ryan Does: that last half an hour just does everything it can to make you as uncomfortable as possible. And I think
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: a l a lot of that comes from how Cronenberg puts specifically Ronnie and Seth through these moments of revealing who they are underneath, revealing who they what their true nature is. So when when you watch this movie and we we're gonna be talking about personal apocalypse through the lens of some more modern movies at Beer Camp. But when we look back at a movie it's forty years old now, how do we see a personal apocalypse be revealed in Not not just Seth as he's turning into this Brundelfly, but also Veronica as she gets pregnant, contemplates an abortion to get this completely out of her life. How how do you see those characters being revealed through these apocalyptic s scenarios?
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. It's a good question. I I think I've read that well, first of all, there's sort of something that feels very relevant to her right now, which is the the the hubris of the scientist and the sort of between and also the competition between her between the Goldman character and the ex-boyfriend character. It's like kinda like who's who's the smartest, you know, and And of course that feels really relevant right now with like AI and all our tech oligarchs, you know, and and like I heard a quote of someone talking about like how, you know, not e like eight years ago or ten years ago or whatever, a lot of them were talking about wanting to save the environment and upset
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: that, you know, we left the Paris Accord and all the the things like that they used to care like, but how through time and the pressure of money and competition and all the whatever. Like they're now just like kissing Trump's ass or whatever. Like just to make like everyone's in competition to get to this
Ryan Does: Just a little.
Sarey: like super intelligence, like must f you know,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: must create God is apparently what everyone's trying to do. Like so anyway, I don't really want to
Ryan Does: That's never ended terribly.
Sarey: no I know. Exactly, exactly. So there I just wanted to draw that kind of like obvious that's like sitting out there, but that's really not the most interesting thing to me. I remember reading that Cronenberg he does really have this thing with like mortality and watching people change as they get older. I remember reading that he was talking about you know, watching someone die of a disease. And this is at a time w where the AIDS epidemic was really prominent, you know. So ha watching and if you've ever been close to someone who like got cancer or something, like the way that their bodies transform into like something unrecognizable is like it's a death it's a death before the death, you know? It's like gr grieving the the person you once knew. so so anyway, yeah, talk about personal apocalypse. like Jeff Goldwyn's humanity is being gradually kind of ripped away. And she, Veronica Rani, she's desperately kind of trying to hold on for a while, like to save, save someone who's on this trajectory. I also you know, I see sort of parallels with like addiction as well. You know, like if you've ever seen someone, you know, fall into addiction and how they they can become
Ryan Does: Sadly I have.
Sarey: unrecognizable, you know, and trying to externally kind of help them hold on to the person you once knew them to be or whatever, you know. So there's all those really kind of I mean those are sad, sad things. the way that the people we love sometimes transform into unrecognizable things over time and how much that can affect us and our sense of identity. whether that's a relationship that failed or, you know, since we're on this podcast, you could talk about the institutions that we once identified with. And
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: you know, one might argue that it's like, have they changed or are they just revealing their true selves? you know, some sort of like r religious institutions or, you know, the people who when I was growing up were the my exemplars for life, you know,
Ryan Does: Right.
Sarey: the people who I thought were the smartest, the kindest, the safest. I don't feel like that anymore about them.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: not to say they're all bad. I I wouldn't say that, but my vision of them has been transfigured into something different. And that really
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: affected my view of myself. I guess that I the I've been thinking about this a lot because I'm actually part of this art show in a group art show in Portland in October and the theme is nightmares. And I was thinking about what my contribution was going to be or what I was going to be commenting. I was started to think about I didn't want to just be obvious, kind of what you think, like really dark imagery from nightmares, but so I started to think about like what kind of nightmares I've had in my life, you know, and a lot of a lot of women, especially if you've thought about getting pregnant, have been pregnant, they will have a dream where there's a baby, but the baby is not a baby.
Ryan Does: Hi.
Sarey: like very common, you know, right? Or the baby comes out and it's all it's like walking and talking immediately. You know, it's like really wild, crazy things. I don't know if like your partner has experienced this, but or if yeah, go
Ryan Does: What's
Sarey: ahead. I've been monologuing.
Ryan Does: Well honestly, Sarah, kid when so my wife and I have two two kids and then they're they're nine and ten now, they're they're rather big. they eat a lot, which feels it's like stop eating all my stuff. But then Kim, I remember there were multiple times where she would wake up during one of their one of the kids' pregnancies and she'd be like, heavy breathing and I'd be like, What what's the matter? She's like I don't like how that felt. And it was and it was this internal feeling. She was trying to externalize it. And I like I I don't know what that feeling is like. I don't know what those emotions are. And I would try to be, you know
Sarey: There must be something so primal about it because I think it's so common. It like this fear that you know, this you're trying to like your body is making a human and the fear that it might be something that less than human is terrifying.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Well The nightmare that Gina Davis has in this movie was one of the scariest parts of the movie for me. Pro probably it was actually the only part that scared me because I knew what the Brundle Fly looked like beforehand. So, but I didn't know Gina Davis's like story. So when they take her into this delivery room, I was like, this is all happening rather quick. And then they do the delivery, and I'm just like, my god,
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: what is that? And she like is constantly trying. Toward end of movie, she's just begging to have this this thing, you know, what she doesn't even know, taken out. She just wants to be done with it. She's kind of she's seen Seth become what he's gonna become, and she doesn't really want in that revealing of who he is, she doesn't want that really to be attached to her in any way. And I it was incredibly visceral, her performance.
Sarey: Yeah. Yeah. That I there are sequels to the fly that are lesser, but they are and I think 'cause I think I've only seen maybe I think there's a fly two and a fly three. And I think
Ryan Does: really? Okay.
Sarey: that they I don't think Cronenberg directed them. I will have to check on that. But they do follow this thread of
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: something it has something to do with the baby. I can't remember how it plays out or how they swing it to where she has the baby. You know, like I I can't remember, but it it they are lesser, but they're kind of fun, but not it not truly like y ki kinda
Ryan Does: B Schlock movies. Yeah.
Sarey: I don't know. I I'll let you form your opinion. But anyway, they do file the they do follow this anxiety of the film. so yeah.
Ryan Does: So with I guess more with like Seth's part of the film, there are a few
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: different times he references the flesh. And and he he
Sarey: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: like he obsesses about the this this is this is the flesh. You don't understand the flesh, you don't you don't get the primordial power
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: of the flesh. Those little monologues feel like Cronenberg's trying to like say something about bodies and kind of the pri like you you said primal, like the primal instincts of bodies and the flesh. Did you did you take anything from that, Sari? 'Cause that was it stood out to me, but then I was like, why is this standing out to me? Maybe a smarter person can figure this out.
Sarey: Yeah, yeah. I I don't know. let me talk around that for a second. I I
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: think 'cause also there's the like I said, like he gets really horny too and he he starts doing these gymnastics. Like he has this yeah,
Ryan Does: It's a lot of sugar.
Sarey: he has a lot of sugar. He gets a sugar rush. I think there's something there about like our complicated relationship with our body and he sort of turns into this like there's like this unchecked kind of male ego thing that happens where he is showing
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: off and he's like thinks he's the shit, you know, and and you know, when she stops sleeping with it him, he has to find someone else to sleep with and
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: yeah, so this sort of complicated like The flesh as a vehicle for I don't know, like finding your value in some way, like I'm the strongest, I'm the
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: sexiest, I'm the s yeah, you know, I'm the most acrobatic the
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: flips and stuff. I don't know. But but then the betrayal of the flesh, right? Like it's our
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: flesh is also what It like he acts like he's immor he's gonna immortal when r like right after that the deterioration is so quick, the you know and yeah.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Well and then like at a certain part like his teeth start to fall out, his fingernails he he pulls off his fingernails. Right, yeah, that like it's incredibly it's incredibly common. and
Sarey: Yeah. Another common nightmare, huh? Another common nightmare. Teeth falling Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: then like he literally doesn't look like himself anymore, but at certain
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: points he tries to like it's almost like he's he's His hubris is oscillating back and forth between being horrified about what he's becoming and then just being
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: reserved to what he's becoming. He's like, it'll be like a kid's show. And I was like, okay,
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: didn't see that coming, that he's gonna film himself, so that people can learn for posterity. It's like, dude, you're falling apart. You're lit like you're collecting pieces
Sarey: Literally.
Ryan Does: of yourself in a medicine cabinet. And like
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the flesh is constantly just like It it feels like a character in and of it in and of itself. And I think that's probably
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: something I as I dig more into Cronenberg films, that's something I will become more assured of from what I've heard is that the flesh is kind of a runner in his in his films, if I have that correct, Jerry. For sure. I mean I know he's known as body horror, but I
Sarey: yeah. They yeah, for sure. Yeah.
Ryan Does: I need to find out what that means like for myself, you know, personally.
Sarey: Well, I mean the yeah, the I mean the body that's how we receive some of our greatest pleasures in life and the greatest tragedies and pains and it's like the home for all of those experiences, all these sensory experiences, some of which are horrific and traumatic and some of which are, you know, plu the greatest pleasures you know, available
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: to humanity. So I think there's really something in that tension there. I'm trying to think there's the a more recent film that was so clearly about death and dying, the sh was it called The Shrouds. I think that was his most recent one.
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: but that, you know, it's it's obviously something he is really interested in.
Ryan Does: So we with
Sarey: Because 'cause I think one of his first movies, what was his first movie? It was the horniest movie ever. I I think it's kind of like like everyone gets like Yeah, like everyone gets like
Ryan Does: Mm-hmm.
Sarey: a disease that makes them just wanna like have an orgy, you know? So it's like you think about like your twenties when everyone's like it's it's just like horny and you think you're never gonna die. Like you defin you know, and then and then you're no. No.
Ryan Does: Yeah. Like it doesn't even cross your mind that you may die. Yeah.
Sarey: And then and then all of a sudden You're forty and you're like, Wait, something's happening
Ryan Does: feel terrible. Like my my body feels terrible.
Sarey: Yeah, I threw out my back when I was like cleaning the living room. Yeah.
Ryan Does: literally it was a few months ago I think I sent I think I sent Steve O a message that said I threw out my back getting out of bed I hate myself and it's like that's like that's the stories that I exchanged with guys who are almost 40 now it's like we're all falling apart
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: and we just feel like death. but I I truly it truly is
Sarey: It's a rude awakening. It's a rude awakening. And I am like, no, I am young. And I am like I I'm in this mode right right now I'm in a mode where I am at like I don't want to say at war. It's not that dramatic, but I am like doing all the research about skincare. I'm going to the physical therapist to be like, I don't want my back to go out when I'm cleaning my living room. Like what can I do? Give me all the exercises. I will do them. Like
Ryan Does: Yes.
Sarey: Like I feel like I'm like ready for battle to like slow this shit down. And that's just where I'm at right now. Me yeah, exactly. Syria versus death, yeah.
Ryan Does: Sari Sari versus Aging. I love it. Well, I guess that kinda like that lands perfectly well with like the last thing I wanted to talk about, which is body horror as a vehicle for personal apocalypse. You and I were kind of just casually bringing up the fact that our bodies have reminded us that it's revealing something about aging and you know we
Sarey: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Does: should take better care of ourselves. with like with body horror in the Cronenberg style and what it reveals about Brundle and what it reveals about Veronica, why why does why is body horror so perfect for this, in your opinion, Sari?
Sarey: Well, it's very visceral. you know, like talk about you use the word melodrama, I think that's good and you know, I commented on how dramatic the film is, but there's certain things about body stuff that you f you feel you have like empathy with just automatically. Like if you see someone you know, just like if you see someone fall and hit their head, you kinda go, ooh, you know? And you know, if you see someone peel their fingernails off or their teeth have fallen out, it's like you feel it in your body and it's coupled with this emotional experience of, you know, the the relationship dying too, you know.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: so I think that that's really powerful because of the it's different Y you know, it's it's just a different experience than if you're just watching someone get dumped in a movie. You're like, man, that sucks. But if
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: you see someone peel their fingernails But it's also emotionally charged, you're like, Ugh
Ryan Does: And then they get dumped, you're like, Wow, that would that's really that's a downer of a day.
Sarey: It's a bad day. Yeah. Yeah, there yeah. That I think that sensory yeah, some like sensory recall, you know.
Ryan Does: shit, that would suck. Well I I think that makes perfect sense is because like a lot of horror is supposed to like it's supposed to mess with you like mentally or psychologically. It's supposed to, you know, attack
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: the brain. You know, if you see a if you see a shadow in a movie and you're like, that person's about to die because the slasher villain's right around the corner. That's one part of fear and yeah, that like that has worked on me. And then there's that sensory fear of, you know, the the the music coming to a crescendo and then dropping out. Like that in a movie, I can hear that, I can see those things, but there's something about body horror for me where it's like it like it chills and like creeps up my skin like in this
Sarey: Mm.
Ryan Does: way that no other kind of horror does. 'Cause I I
Sarey: Yeah.
Ryan Does: I c I can't feel it, but I can I know what the closest approximation of that might feel like.
Sarey: Yeah, exactly. I I also think that like in my I'm just thinking I was my you know, I'm remembering I'm an artist and a lot of my sculptures are characters that I create and there is a body horror element to them.
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: where, you know, something's off about their arms or their nose is missing or you know, there's always something off and for me it is a cool way to explore identity because I A big question for me and a theme I like to explore is how we how people reveal themselves and perform identity or like trying to find more authentic versions and expressions of yourself
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: along the way. And the way you express your identity sometimes is like this hybrid of who you really are in the most authentic sense, and we could talk about what. authentic self is or whatever if if such a thing exists. And this hybrid between this like kind of more authentic expression and the expectations of your family, the world, the institutions you're part of. And you're like you're
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: trying, you know, where you're trying to create this self that is pleasing to you and to others, you know, and
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: and and helps you live the life you want to live. And so to me that sort of visor visual representation of these like part human, part robot, animal, you know, it it sort
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: of is a fun way to explore that and express that idea. so and then there's that question of like, you know, is there something true about the fly identity to like who that character is too? Like maybe that's that's a question,
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: like, you know, maybe like they're There's he had maybe he had that comin', you know? Like I don't know. It's a g
Ryan Does: Yeah.
Sarey: maybe a question of the movie.
Ryan Does: Well is is there anything from our conversation, Sarah, that you feel like we need to just like put a put a wrap on before we we close out our conversation about Cronenberg's The Fly?
Sarey: Hmm, it's just truly one of my favorite movies. Like I would probably put it in my top five. So if
Ryan Does: wow.
Sarey: you haven't s if you haven't seen it, you should see it. And sorry that we just maybe ruined a lot for you. But
Ryan Does: I mean
Sarey: I don't think there's spoilers. There's not spoilers for movies that are this for forty years old. Movies. You had plenty of time.
Ryan Does: was gonna say like this this this movie is quite it it's been out for a while. and
Sarey: It's a classic, yeah. And I think that a lot of people came to it who are our age because when Jurassic Park came out when we're kids and Jeff Goldblum becomes like this everybody knows who Jeff Goldblum is because of Jurassic Park, you know, even though he had been in a lot of films before that, obviously, but for people our age, that's a lot of times our first encounter with him. And then going back and scene and then going back
Ryan Does: And what an encounter it is.
Sarey: exactly. I know, right? And then going back and seeing him like this in this movie, really, really wonderful, delightful experience.
Ryan Does: I I I I love this conversation, Sadie. Thanks for thanks for recommending the fly and I'm really glad that
Sarey: I'm glad I was the catalyst for you watching it. Thank you know, thank God.
Ryan Does: There's you know, I I feel like now I have that bond with a few different people with a f a few different kinds of movies. And it's like if I see anything
Sarey: Good. Yeah.
Ryan Does: about the fly, I know who I'm sending that meme or that reel to f for first now. So for those of you
Sarey: Yeah. Totally.
Ryan Does: that wanna check out more of what what Sari's doing, we will include like links to your website and things that you've got going on. We are you said earlier, when we were talking offline that we're doing a screening of your short film at Theology Beer Camp this year. So for those of you that are attending Beer Camp, you have the opportunity to see it. D is there anything you wanna tell people like about the film ahead of time?
Sarey: Yeah, it's a science fiction film. It's not anywhere near as gross as The Fly. It's
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: about a winemaker who has extraterrestrial origins and it was filmed here in Portland, Oregon in wine country. it's sixteen minutes and it's a weird it's a weird time. I'm really proud of it. So if you're coming to beer camp, be sure to come to the screening of the winemaker. Not sure when it'll be, but it'll be like in the evening during a like a breakout hang time and we're gonna make it fun. I actually want the session to be called Theology Wine Camp because the movie is about a winemaker
Ryan Does: Okay.
Sarey: and because I'm not really actually into beer at all. And so hopefully it will be this little like pocket of wine in the middle of a beer time. And if so, you know, if if that appeals to you I think so too. I think so too.
Ryan Does: I I feel like they can make that happen. well see if you're if you're attending Beer Camp, please don't miss that. And also don't miss the panel that Sarah and I are gonna be doing with Cutter and Lita, where we're talking about horror
Sarey: Our panel. Yeah. Yeah.
Ryan Does: and personal apocalypse. And we're gonna be talking about it through the lens of 2026 movies. Like movies you've been hearing about. Obsession, background, under
Sarey: Some of the most popular, yeah, yeah.
Ryan Does: Undertone like and then we're gonna do I'm so excited for the lightning round of like have you seen this movie? What'd you think of that? Have you seen this movie? What'd you think of that? I I'm so stoked to get to just be nerds talking about horror together. So
Sarey: Totally.
Ryan Does: for those of you that have have gotten to this point in the episode, I just wanna say thank you. be Be generous a as generous as you want. Leave a comment, leave a like, subscribe, you'll never miss an episode. And just remember that no matter what's going on in your life, wouldn't no matter what's being revealed through the different situations you're going through right now, the horrors may persist, but so can we.
