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Rob Watson: You’re listening to the Decentered Media podcast with me, Rob Watson. Conversations about community media. Visit decentered.co.uk or follow on Instagram and Twitter @decenteredmedia.
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Rob Watson: Hello, it’s Thursday, the 26th of March and I’m Rob Watson and this is a Decentered Media podcast and I’m joined today by Shumaila Jaffery.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Hooray!
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Rob Watson: So we’ve had a busy couple of weeks and we’re going to spend a bit of time reflecting on your visit to Leicester and what you’ve learned and what you’ll take away. Do you want to summarize quickly what you are have been doing and what your first impressions were when you came to Leicester?
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Shumaila Jaffery: Hmm. So I've been very busy, um, and the past 11 weeks since I have arrived in in this city I haven't taken a single off day. Either I've been talking to someone, meeting someone or visiting some place, so I've tried to use every single moment of the opportunity that I was afforded and I thought I'm so privileged.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, and it has been amazing because when I was coming here as an international student, um, somebody who has never been to Leicester before, who had never been to Leicester before and and still doing a PhD project on the city, um, I had my fears and I was like, you know, um, anything, I mean it happens with everyone every time when you are starting something new.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And my fear was that would I be able to connect to uh to the people of Leicester? And I think that I've been able to record uh almost 30 interviews. I have uh attended you know several events in the city and now I mean after 11 weeks I enter a hall, you know, any event in Leicester and I meet like 10, 11 people who know me, so I think it has been great.
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Rob Watson: And they greet you, they don’t avoid you. Yes. I know people when I go to halls they avoid me, no I’m joking.
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Shumaila Jaffery: No, no, no. And and they tell me, on the, they've been, I've been listening, you know, Leicester has adopted you or why don't you move to Leicester, there is a lot of work we can do, a lot of projects together. So yes, um, amazing.
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Rob Watson: So what was the reason for you to come here? Um, and and let’s kind of reflect on the expectation was on what the kind of reality was of what you found? So what was your what was your research project?
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I came here um I think that it’s really important to mention that I I am a PhD student, a researcher, my research is about the 2022 unrest in Leicester and I am looking into the media aspect of it, that what was happening in the media space. And my project is funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council and I it’s it’s a it’s a wonderful studentship, it’s a great program.
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Shumaila Jaffery: The way they have developed it, it you know, not it’s, you know, they tell you that okay you do the PhD, that's the main thing but at the same time they want you to do so many different things. So at the end of the program mostly students are ready to you know instantly kind of join the market, you know, part of become part of the economy.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And and so there there are you know little kind of pots of funding available where they encourage you to take on different activities. So one part of the studentship is the Research Employability Project. So where they encourage students to go and work with an organization which is not kind of directly part of their research but something that would be beneficial for their project but give them also some skills about employability.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So for me I'm a former BBC journalist, have a long career behind me. Um, for me of course the new thing that I learned was that I worked with Decentered Media, it’s a community media setup. So I did not have any prior experience of working in a community media setup. So that was something new for me and I I think that it was also it in I met wonderful people and and you know at grassroots level where you connected to people in small little tiny communities.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So that was something that I enjoyed a lot but that was something new for me. But otherwise in terms of employability skills I mean I have some employability skills I've I've worked for long time. So I thought you know I will use this opportunity to connect to to people because I mean we believe in at that that you should research do research not on communities but with them.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So you know that respect of where you connect to people, try to understand them and their perspectives and and I spent most of my time doing that. So I worked with Decentered Media but also I was meeting people talking to them, listening to them, I did a lot of listening and I think that this opportunity will I think hugely benefit my PhD project, it has enriched me as a professional and as as a researcher.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And I'm very thankful for uh this opportunity and there is a very small team, ROCCAA team that manages this studentship, um, just three, four people and you some and they tell you the same information, it's a lot of information you don't kind of register all of it and you keep going back to them for small little things that they have already told you but they are very patient.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And for me as an international student to getting to be able to get this opportunity to be here to do this research and and somebody has paid for me to come and stay in Leicester for three three months I can't tell you um how kind of grateful I am because I come from I'm I'm from Pakistan, a middle-aged kind of woman.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um I I never thought I mean in my country there was no such opportunity. Of course it is highly competitive, it's based on merit, I had to work really really hard for it, I earned it and for international students even it's even harder um but I still feel I'm so privileged and I'm so grateful and that's why I always feel I'm when I talk about my research I want my research to be impact oriented, I want to create knowledge.
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Shumaila Jaffery: That you know people who have funded my research can use that knowledge to to do to fix something in their country, in the society.
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Rob Watson: We’re grateful that you’ve when I say we, I mean I, am grateful that you’ve experienced something in a positive way because that’s in in a way that’s the heart of what Decentered Media’s about is that participatory empowerment and it can happen at all levels.
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Rob Watson: So it’s one of the things that you know it’s very different for people media professionals and it’s been interesting listening to your reflections about your experience as a professional journalist about the participatory route and it’s one of the things when we’re thinking about media policy and reform in the UK, the BBC’s job and as being discussed as part of charter renewal is not to train the public up to become competent media producers themselves.
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Rob Watson: There’s a separation between the public and the institution. Whereas community media, it’s exactly what its role is about, experiencing and being part of.
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Rob Watson: So what kind of when you list this set of skills on your CV that you’ve hopefully acquired, what would you what you know what you would you want people to value or recognize about that experience that has added to your skills mix?
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Shumaila Jaffery: I think I I now I view community media and and the utility of it and it's you know the role of community media from a changed lens. Um, I always knew it was important but in in a city like Leicester which is so diverse I I now understand and I am researching the 2022 unrest and there was recently this SOAS-led independent inquiry, um, and it talks about the role of media.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, but what it it hasn't talked about, you know, the absence, uh, you know, we talk about absences not just presences.
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Rob Watson: How do you prove an absence?
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Shumaila Jaffery: Absence. So the absence I think and of course I understand it was not I think none of the team members were had media and communication background and I'm a media and communication researcher. So I think the absence of the you know a community strong community-based local media entity, um, I think that was absent and I've been talking to different people.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And of course it's just you know second year of research, I'm still I'm just finishing my data collection. Um, but whatever knowledge that I've gathered and my understanding, my own understanding, I I feel that if a strong uh neutral uh Leicester-based media entity would have been around um I think it could have maybe minimized the harm.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um which at one point in the past used to be Leicester Mercury but now we are living in a different world, it's more digital and and you know Leicester Mercury was it's a different model, um, the BBC everybody complains about the BBC, there are trust issues but also cuts.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And the I mean I also this also I understood that the BBC cannot be a replacement of of community media.
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Rob Watson: And vice versa.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And and the community media cannot cannot be the BBC. Um, so I think all my my concepts about community media um I think they have changed, I learned a lot about how important it is for community and especially if you are living in a city which is so diverse and if people would have different streams of information, uh, which is the case unfortunately not just in Leicester everywhere everywhere in the world.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, then you know there you you are living in different bubbles, information bubbles, and and then there is always this threat that anything can go wrong and there can be influences, uh, there can be vested interests, there can be transnational influences.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So the strong community media can uh be a good defense against that kind of threats or manipulations.
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Rob Watson: In terms of the I want to go back to the kind of structural and strategic thinking about this but I want to maybe focus for a minute on the interpersonal relationships and I feel from my perspective as well there was a little bit of kind of when you first arrived offloading.
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Rob Watson: That’s what the researcher often gets. There’s a lot of pent up anxiety, frustration, history from different people across the spectrum all seeing these things from different perspectives and not being able to have a a way to work through some of the difficult issues that you know whether it’s functional issues, whether it’s perception issues, whether it’s whatever kind of issues they are.
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Rob Watson: There’s and and what was it like when you first started to engage with people and you know we’ve got you know the the different media groups, community media groups that we’ve got you know like the Evington Echo, like you know Source FM or whatever you know whichever groups you’ve dealt with and there’s a range of them. What was that like? Did how did you how did you feel at that point?
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Shumaila Jaffery: I I thought that this is you see it's not a very rewarding um job, it's like it's not a career even, right? So who people who are um engaged with or contributing to community media mostly they are driven by their own just commitment to the community or or to the place where they are living.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um so I I met Harjesh, Harjesh is a community reporter for Evington Echo and he's basically a a translator and he earns his living like doing different jobs, um, journalism or community journalism or whatever he does for Evington Echo is not his source of income but he's so passionate about it and he keeps contributing to the local publication.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um and I felt that really fascinating and I I mean I have a lot of respect for Harjesh uh because not many people are I mean everybody's busy, life is so busy, so you know if somebody is taking that pain where they are they are covering different events going to different places and then taking a out time to write something and produce something and post something.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And then Helen herself you know she's so old and uh she's so inspirational. Uh she doesn't need anything now. She can have she can just retire and have a comfortable life. She's doing that work. And and then um it's all almost like you know mostly people who are working in community media they're almost like ideological like almost.
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Rob Watson: Fanatical.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Fanatical. Yes. Yes. So that that also I found quite fascinating. But you need that drive that passion that you know something immaterial I would say to you know work in community media.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So there should be more support, um, there should be more uh financial incentives and I think with this whole kind of thing of social media and hate and polarization I think a stronger community media uh is can be again I would say provide some level of information resilience uh against uh manipulation or hate agendas or whatever you would like to call them.
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Rob Watson: It’s one of the things that’s difficult to write up, I mean it’s the respect you know or the acknowledgement of the privileged position of the researcher. And it opens doors but it also puts you on a pedestal and you’ve got some responsibility when you’re working with people to to make sure that you don’t as we say lead them up the garden path.
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Rob Watson: However, um, the other side of it is that when you’ve gained people’s trust and acceptance that the doors are opened and you see things and that’s why the observation is so important to going to events and we did the International Language Day. Um, and that was you know not very well attended by visitors but we had a really good time by the people who came having some detailed conversations.
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Rob Watson: Um, what what would be in the way that you think are think you know you’ve got to think about how you account for those experiences. Um can you separate out the uh you know the function from the sense of belonging that goes that is drawn through these things is that thing when you’re working in community situations what we call loosely I know I use the word community less and less these days it becomes too almost kind of problematic to use.
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Rob Watson: But when you work in those situations where you’ve got groups of people who come together to commune there is a joy there, there is a connection there, when it works. Uh which is which is hard to describe and account for in itself but you’ve also got to step back from it and look at it in a kind of contextual historical you know political kind of lens as well to say hang on a minute this is part of a wider process or situation.
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Rob Watson: Uh how do you think you’ll approach reflecting on that before you start your write up? You know how do you think that you’ll chew this over?
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Shumaila Jaffery: See I I've seen things changing in in Leicester since I arrived. So when I came and I initially I attended a couple of.
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Rob Watson: I think that’s a lot to do with the weather because you know you came in January and now it’s spring, so it makes a big difference.
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Shumaila Jaffery: I think I think it has something to do with the report, uh, with the SOAS-led report, um, I I I understand that you know it's not perfect and there would never be consensus that you know 100 percent or a majority of people would agree on something.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But when I when I came and I attended a couple of community events and I felt that uh people were they would come together but there was this heaviness, there was this heaviness as if there is an elephant in the room and nobody wants to address that.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And with this report not everybody liked it. Um I think at least there is a some kind of you know people have got closure of course there are people who are still waiting for the government inquiry to be released but at least people have got something, a document.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And now they're asking what next, what next. And whatever you say at least there is now kind of some understanding of what happened at that time because I've been talking to people and local people did not know what was happening.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Some people even came to know about the um the unrest, you know, the next day through media living in this city as a researcher I could see that it was building up from like a few years even, you know, I I can say that.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, so now at least they've got a bigger picture, they know that these are the things they have been established. Okay, we don't agree with the 10 out of 10 but maybe two you know things the report is pointing out they are correct. So there is now a movement okay what's next.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I I think you know whether it's the political arena or it's media or it's social cohesion people are thinking about new projects okay what can we do so it does not happen again.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And then I during Ramadan I was here and I attended you know again I feel privileged uh that I was invited and I got the opportunity to attend the interfaith Iftar which was you know it held it happened on the same Belgrave Road where the you know one of the most ugliest pictures of the unrest you know which was beamed all over the world you know came out from that you know same road.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So this Iftar where all communities of Leicester they came together, they broke bread together, the atmosphere, the symbolism of that you know I was there and uh so initially it was like you know religious ceremony, you know there were prayers and then when but when food came how people were like talking to each other, people were hugging each other.
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Shumaila Jaffery: There were conversations, it was and it felt like big Desi wedding where you know everybody's like having a lot loads of food and they are talking and hugging and standing and sitting and it was like big kind of living room. And I felt really kind of um I saw that you know the warmth.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So that kind of for me uh was like you know I I really kind of I'm a researcher and outsider but even being an outsider you know it warmed my heart to be there that evening. So uh I think for me I'm a trained as a BBC journalist so there is you know the system in my kind of brain where you just switch off your own so I'm very aware of my own positionality.
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Shumaila Jaffery: When I came here when I was coming here I was very aware of my own positionality. That's why I had some fears that you know whether people would talk to me or not, whether they would trust me or not, I have a big baggage of my journalism, of my own identity. But I I think that when I will start writing about things, um, there is a process in my brain I'll switch that off.
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Rob Watson: You’ve given me an interesting thought there because actually one of the things when you come to Leicester, and I feel this myself when I visit elsewhere and then come back, it’s like get over yourself. You’re not important. There’s so much going on, it’s like kind of your positionality doesn’t matter. Nobody cares.
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Rob Watson: And it’s and that’s you know that’s like glass half full half empty, it’s sometimes it’s important and then sometimes it just doesn’t and there’s that element to it which kind of actually is quite grounding in a way.
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Rob Watson: I wanted to ask you which is related to that which is the idea of as a professional journalist and again you know you’re processing the reflections and your field notes and everything and your observations and um but are there any things that you would think about that in terms about the journalistic process? Not uh the product you know not the the occurrences itself and and people’s reaction to but about the journalistic process.
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Rob Watson: That you think need to be dealt with is there an urgency that we need to review how you know the the large media organizations just from a kind of professional journalism management process? Is there anything that you’ve kind of would would jump out at this point where you could say look we this is something that’s going to have to be dealt with.
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Rob Watson: Or I mean is it too early for you to come up with any kind of conclusions like that? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, obviously but it’s you know at what you know is there are there any reflections that you’d want to pass on to colleagues in professional journalism?
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was and when I interviewed you know uh a lot of people and I would ask them about Leicester's media landscape because I'm interested in and Leicester is like so many other cities in the world are now you know diverse and so it what's true for Leicester it it can be replicated you know in other parts of the world as well.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was very interested and I would ask them about you know what kind of media do you have, how do you get your news, um and do different communities get news from the same same news news source or are there different news streams? Um, so I think uh at the at the moment the challenge is the same you know the social media and Leicester has a lot of diaspora population.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And diaspora population is uh especially the younger uh the older older generation and new migrants, they are very much attuned to consuming news and current affairs using sources from back home or country country of origin. Um and then uh another thing that kind of jumped out to me was representation.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I could not find any Muslim journalist and this is the city where I think at the moment Muslims are the kind of biggest uh population group in terms of religion and uh so it took me some time and I came to know that there was this one woman journalist but now she's working for BBC Nottingham and then there's another one but she's a freelancer she's not a full-time journalist.
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Shumaila Jaffery: I could not find a male journalist in mainstream media. Um so that was uh kind of a little bit eye opening for me then Leicester Mercury, I mean it it has become a shadow of what it used to be, a very small team but then it is all again uh white and ITV has uh they kind of it seems that they they get it, it's not just you know to to check boxes that you need to have certain you know number of people.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But at the same time if you want to understand the stories of of those communities I think then representation matters and I was told again and again that uh the mainstream media, the national media, the international media did not get the story of the 2022 Leicester riots uh right. Um but then there wasn't a stronger kind of local media that that could have told that story more effectively.
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Shumaila Jaffery: That wasn't there. The BBC has been gutted of its resources because of partially because of cuts or policies or I don't know it's a very complicated debate. But the BBC Leicester was not in that position.
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Rob Watson: The general policy for BBC Local Radio in England, it was never described and they’ve resisted in their press statements that it was dis- it was a cut. It was always described as a redeployment of resources to to a re- regional digital first and that it was expected.
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Rob Watson: I mean this the 22 events took place just before the policy was changed but the follow on has you know as happened subsequently but they uh you know I’m not speaking for the BBC but they it’s not an issue of cut, it’s an issue of reprioritization and the I think it exposes a and I know lots of people have talked about this nationally it and and challenged Ofcom on this as well and and DCMS, the government on this.
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Rob Watson: Is that the it exposes a failure in terms of the BBC model which claims to improve journalism and relevance of those stories because they’re in a more you know it’s like the health service having a team of heart surgeons and you’ve got a group who work in a specialist unit and they can provide better service but they not they’ve lost that dispersal within the the places where those you losing your your general practitioners if you like.
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Rob Watson: So it’s like a balance between the two and and it’s tipped too far towards centralization, so.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
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Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
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Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
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Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
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Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
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Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:35:05.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:36:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:36:35.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:10.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:35.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:38:35.000 --> 00:39:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Now I can say that because I'm a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You're researching this and you've had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:40:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:41:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:42:05.000
Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:30.000
Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:15.000
Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:35:05.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:45:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:46:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:47:00.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:25.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Now I can say that because I'm a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You're researching this and you've had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:50:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
00:50:40.000 --> 00:51:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:52:10.000
Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:50.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:53:50.000 --> 00:54:15.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:40.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:55:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:56:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:35.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:56:35.000 --> 00:57:00.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:25.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:50.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:15.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:20.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So we keep criticizing social media but then social media also sometimes it is very helpful. And I found you on social media when I was thinking about and planning to do my placement in Leicester and I found you on LinkedIn and then I got in touch with you.
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So first of all I also you know want to thank you for trusting me and give me the opportunity uh to come here and and work with you and I I remember that you immediately responded and then we had an online call and you said okay fine.
00:58:40.000 --> 00:59:00.000
Shumaila Jaffery: You wanted you also wanted to contribute. I mean it aligns with Decentered Media's um mission and vision and that you want to be part of you know research which which is being done to improve media landscape and environment in the UK and around the world.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:15.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So but how has been your experience with me and when I was coming to Leicester you know what kind of perception or thoughts you had in mind? And now when I'm I'm going back to Leeds...
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:40.000
Rob Watson: Well you’ll be missed it’s been great. I mean it’s I’ve really enjoyed it. And you know you’re you the work that you’re doing is thought provoking and that’s high praise from me. You know we were saying earlier about the the British don’t do praise, you know it’s so we don’t accept it and we don’t give it. And yeah it was all right, yeah, yeah.
00:59:40.000 --> 01:00:05.000
Rob Watson: You were fine, yeah. You know that’s about the level that’s high praise. But it’s yeah no it is because I think it’s it’s uh a good friend John Coster uh says you know one of his famous phrases is you never a profit in your own land. And it it feels a little bit like by like that you know we’ve been going around in circles a little bit and then it just takes what a an external independent person.
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:20.000
Rob Watson: To come along and go oh my god. You know oh my goodness this is this you know this is what’s going on here. And you kind of look at it and you go oh so it wasn’t me, it’s the kind of context. So that’s in that’s incredibly useful and not to take that for granted.
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:45.000
Rob Watson: Because I think the danger is that you create your own echo chamber and your bubble but we have a I think what I really enjoy is I’ve learned so much from you from your experience but you also don’t put up with a lot of the you’re very polite and and you have a good way of pushing back against some of the things that I say.
01:00:45.000 --> 01:01:10.000
Rob Watson: And because I can come out I’m thinking things through and that’s often you know dangerous territory where you kind of go does this make sense and then you go and you engage with that and that draws out a good level of thinking and I think that’s quite that’s been very useful for me. So I’ve benefited a lot.
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:35.000
Rob Watson: So as the you know last Wednesday when we did our workshop with community media leaders um and at the end of the workshop you asked Sam our another colleague and how was it and he said it was all right. And I was listening and I said just all right? This is what you tell me then they ask you how was it and what should I have said it was wonderful and it was great it was amazing.
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And he blushed!
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Rob Watson: Yeah that’s how to catch if you want to catch a Brit out then that’s how you know somebody’s British. Yeah yeah offer them some praise and you’ll see them run in the opposite direction. It’s like we’re not Americans you know or Australians very different.
01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And he quickly you know blushed when I and I was just you know kind of kidding and...
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Rob Watson: Well I really I really enjoyed that evening. I mean despite the fact that we bought far too many samosas for it but it was um it was good to be able to and I think the question one of the things that I remember from that it kind of stays with me because you started off in the presentation talking about the public sphere and about the marketplace and the whole model of kind of.
01:02:35.000 --> 01:03:00.000
Rob Watson: And then it was the question kind of look we’ve been doing this for thousands of years. Have we not figured out the answers yet? And it’s say when you when you’re talking to people and the defeatism comes in and the expectations that oh you know this dealing with this social media is really difficult and dealing with the international media. No it’s not.
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:25.000
Rob Watson: It’s just the same as having a couple of cranks coming into the marketplace and start spouting bile or whatever it is. There’s mechanisms that we keep drawing on that bring it back to a a common ground. It’s like you know if you know there’s ways that it’s worked in the past that we just have to maybe revisit those things again and go we can calm ourselves down.
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:50.000
Rob Watson: Yes the technology’s different, yes the platform, yes the scale is different, the globalized scale of it is different. But the principle of the human principles are by and large the same.
01:03:50.000 --> 01:04:15.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the so the challenge is how you bring people back to one single public sphere.
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:40.000
Rob Watson: Yeah, yeah. So my last question for you because we should wrap up soon I think is is how do you feel now?
01:04:40.000 --> 01:05:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Well I think I'm still at the stage where you know it's still you know tomorrow is the last day and it's all booked and I'm still kind of getting doing new things, meeting new people, new conversations. I think when I go back after a couple of days things would start you know sinking in.
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: I've been do taking a lot you know loads of notes and and memos writing memos and everything but I think I've done a lot in in the last 11 weeks and um when I go back so the way I used to so I read about Leicester a lot.
01:05:35.000 --> 01:06:00.000
Shumaila Jaffery: I mean I've been engaged with this topic um since the unrest happened in 2022, about demography, about geography, about history, about economy, um what happened in the 2022. I mean even before the SOAS report came I I knew everything. There was nothing that I was really shocked about uh that I did not know of.
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:25.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And some of those thing things I had been discussing with you as well before the report came. Um but it was still an outsider view. Now I in you know living here and I made that that choice very thoughtfully that I should live here, it's not that I come and go and come and go.
01:06:25.000 --> 01:06:50.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um and I have made like really good connections um and tried to be for a very small time part of the social fabric, social life of of Leicester. I think I still am not at that stage because I'm still in in the in the pot or in the process. When I go back and I think after a few days I then the process will start where I can tell the difference.
01:06:50.000 --> 01:07:15.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But it's going to be a very different view of Leicester. I felt Leicester embraced me and and I felt at home. I felt very comfortable. I did not for a second feel you know this so when I came so people said you know there are communities and they do not go to you know certain areas.
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: I've been to all different areas, I've been traveling through bus, I've been walking around the city. I never ever felt unsafe.
01:07:40.000 --> 01:08:10.000
Rob Watson: At some point you have to step back from that and kind of go my personal feelings I’ve got to objectify this as well. The one thing I would say which is kind of that you know in when I did my PhD research is transcription was manual. So all the recordings I did it’s like it took months and months and months.
01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:35.000
Rob Watson: Whereas now you can your recordings that you’ve taken you can automate the the transcription in and pretty much so you’ll be you’ll be able to then probe into that in a bit of a deeper way but.
01:08:35.000 --> 01:09:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Although we can't we can't use all kind of softwares. There are limited we can use. But yes but there is an option you know transcription.
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:35.000
Rob Watson: Yeah yeah transcription software I’d say it’s a must these days you can’t you can’t spend three months doing doing half an hour’s worth of audio recordings transcription that’s beyond anybody’s these days but. No but from the from that point of view of kind of that reflection yes I look you know it’s um when I look back on the research I did it actually is you you value it.
01:09:35.000 --> 01:10:05.000
Rob Watson: And over time you kind of realize that it was you’ve experienced something it’s unique you know and you have to you have to be involved and it’s always a principle you know encourage more people to do this kind of participant observation or ethnographic research.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Well some people have here have been also telling me why you have selected this this topic. You PhD research could have been easier, nobody's going to be happy, it's a very difficult and complicated topic and said okay.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But you have to meet with people, you can't do it theoretically and that drives it.
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Rob Watson: Yes it is what it is. And I think we touched upon all these issues in our recent workshop that we did with community media leaders and um I think it was a good way to start a conversation after this SOAS-led report. So to talk about solutions that how can you uh kind of come up with strategies.
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Rob Watson: Of course resources are needed, but what also needs to be done to make people interested, to bring them back to wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
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Rob Watson: So we’re going to look forward to to revisiting this topic in future. We maybe do in a few months time we’ll do an online chat if you don’t come back to Leicester before then but when you do and you visit fleeting visits.
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Rob Watson: So there’ll be a lot to follow on with I think. I think you’re going to maybe have a list of things that you need to add but we we you know it’s been great having you here and over very very much enjoyed it. It’s given me a spur of a kind of a bit of affirmation which is useful. So that’s good.
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Rob Watson: So if you want to get in contact with Decentered Media, Rob contact us at Decentered Media on the social media platforms and the website is decentered.co.uk.
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Rob Watson: Um if you want to support uh Decentered Media we have a Patreon account uh which we use as well to support some of the other projects that we work on so such as Radio Lear which is the arts-based community radio station.
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Rob Watson: That we’re developing and establishing and it might pay for some samosas at another event that we do in the future. So it’s always welcome. So until next time, thank you very much.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Thank you.
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Rob Watson: You’ve been listening to the Decentered Media podcast with me, Rob Watson. To find out more, go to decentered.co.uk or follow on Twitter and Instagram @decenteredmedia.
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Rob Watson: You’re listening to the Decentered Media podcast with me, Rob Watson. Conversations about community media. Visit decentered.co.uk or follow on Instagram and Twitter @decenteredmedia.
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Rob Watson: Hello, it’s Thursday, the 26th of March and I’m Rob Watson and this is a Decentered Media podcast and I’m joined today by Shumaila Jaffery.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Hooray!
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Rob Watson: So we’ve had a busy couple of weeks and we’re going to spend a bit of time reflecting on your visit to Leicester and what you’ve learned and what you’ll take away. Do you want to summarize quickly what you are have been doing and what your first impressions were when you came to Leicester?
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Shumaila Jaffery: Hmm. So I've been very busy, um, and the past 11 weeks since I have arrived in in this city I haven't taken a single off day. Either I've been talking to someone, meeting someone or visiting some place, so I've tried to use every single moment of the opportunity that I was afforded and I thought I'm so privileged.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, and it has been amazing because when I was coming here as an international student, um, somebody who has never been to Leicester before, who had never been to Leicester before and and still doing a PhD project on the city, um, I had my fears and I was like, you know, um, anything, I mean it happens with everyone every time when you are starting something new.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And my fear was that would I be able to connect to uh to the people of Leicester? And I think that I've been able to record uh almost 30 interviews. I have uh attended you know several events in the city and now I mean after 11 weeks I enter a hall, you know, any event in Leicester and I meet like 10, 11 people who know me, so I think it has been great.
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Rob Watson: And they greet you, they don’t avoid you. Yes. I know people when I go to halls they avoid me, no I’m joking.
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Shumaila Jaffery: No, no, no. And and they tell me, on the, they've been, I've been listening, you know, Leicester has adopted you or why don't you move to Leicester, there is a lot of work we can do, a lot of projects together. So yes, um, amazing.
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Rob Watson: So what was the reason for you to come here? Um, and and let’s kind of reflect on the expectation was on what the kind of reality was of what you found? So what was your what was your research project?
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I came here um I think that it’s really important to mention that I I am a PhD student, a researcher, my research is about the 2022 unrest in Leicester and I am looking into the media aspect of it, that what was happening in the media space. And my project is funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council and I it’s it’s a it’s a wonderful studentship, it’s a great program.
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Shumaila Jaffery: The way they have developed it, it you know, not it’s, you know, they tell you that okay you do the PhD, that's the main thing but at the same time they want you to do so many different things. So at the end of the program mostly students are ready to you know instantly kind of join the market, you know, part of become part of the economy.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And and so there there are you know little kind of pots of funding available where they encourage you to take on different activities. So one part of the studentship is the Research Employability Project. So where they encourage students to go and work with an organization which is not kind of directly part of their research but something that would be beneficial for their project but give them also some skills about employability.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So for me I'm a former BBC journalist, have a long career behind me. Um, for me of course the new thing that I learned was that I worked with Decentered Media, it’s a community media setup. So I did not have any prior experience of working in a community media setup. So that was something new for me and I I think that it was also it in I met wonderful people and and you know at grassroots level where you connected to people in small little tiny communities.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So that was something that I enjoyed a lot but that was something new for me. But otherwise in terms of employability skills I mean I have some employability skills I've I've worked for long time. So I thought you know I will use this opportunity to connect to to people because I mean we believe in at that that you should research do research not on communities but with them.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So you know that respect of where you connect to people, try to understand them and their perspectives and and I spent most of my time doing that. So I worked with Decentered Media but also I was meeting people talking to them, listening to them, I did a lot of listening and I think that this opportunity will I think hugely benefit my PhD project, it has enriched me as a professional and as as a researcher.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And I'm very thankful for uh this opportunity and there is a very small team, ROCCAA team that manages this studentship, um, just three, four people and you some and they tell you the same information, it's a lot of information you don't kind of register all of it and you keep going back to them for small little things that they have already told you but they are very patient.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And for me as an international student to getting to be able to get this opportunity to be here to do this research and and somebody has paid for me to come and stay in Leicester for three three months I can't tell you um how kind of grateful I am because I come from I'm I'm from Pakistan, a middle-aged kind of woman.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um I I never thought I mean in my country there was no such opportunity. Of course it is highly competitive, it's based on merit, I had to work really really hard for it, I earned it and for international students even it's even harder um but I still feel I'm so privileged and I'm so grateful and that's why I always feel I'm when I talk about my research I want my research to be impact oriented, I want to create knowledge.
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Shumaila Jaffery: That you know people who have funded my research can use that knowledge to to do to fix something in their country, in the society.
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Rob Watson: We’re grateful that you’ve when I say we, I mean I, am grateful that you’ve experienced something in a positive way because that’s in in a way that’s the heart of what Decentered Media’s about is that participatory empowerment and it can happen at all levels.
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Rob Watson: So it’s one of the things that you know it’s very different for people media professionals and it’s been interesting listening to your reflections about your experience as a professional journalist about the participatory route and it’s one of the things when we’re thinking about media policy and reform in the UK, the BBC’s job and as being discussed as part of charter renewal is not to train the public up to become competent media producers themselves.
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Rob Watson: There’s a separation between the public and the institution. Whereas community media, it’s exactly what its role is about, experiencing and being part of.
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Rob Watson: So what kind of when you list this set of skills on your CV that you’ve hopefully acquired, what would you what you know what you would you want people to value or recognize about that experience that has added to your skills mix?
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Shumaila Jaffery: I think I I now I view community media and and the utility of it and it's you know the role of community media from a changed lens. Um, I always knew it was important but in in a city like Leicester which is so diverse I I now understand and I am researching the 2022 unrest and there was recently this SOAS-led independent inquiry, um, and it talks about the role of media.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, but what it it hasn't talked about, you know, the absence, uh, you know, we talk about absences not just presences.
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Rob Watson: How do you prove an absence?
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Shumaila Jaffery: Absence. So the absence I think and of course I understand it was not I think none of the team members were had media and communication background and I'm a media and communication researcher. So I think the absence of the you know a community strong community-based local media entity, um, I think that was absent and I've been talking to different people.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And of course it's just you know second year of research, I'm still I'm just finishing my data collection. Um, but whatever knowledge that I've gathered and my understanding, my own understanding, I I feel that if a strong uh neutral uh Leicester-based media entity would have been around um I think it could have maybe minimized the harm.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um which at one point in the past used to be Leicester Mercury but now we are living in a different world, it's more digital and and you know Leicester Mercury was it's a different model, um, the BBC everybody complains about the BBC, there are trust issues but also cuts.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And the I mean I also this also I understood that the BBC cannot be a replacement of of community media.
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Rob Watson: And vice versa.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And and the community media cannot cannot be the BBC. Um, so I think all my my concepts about community media um I think they have changed, I learned a lot about how important it is for community and especially if you are living in a city which is so diverse and if people would have different streams of information, uh, which is the case unfortunately not just in Leicester everywhere everywhere in the world.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, then you know there you you are living in different bubbles, information bubbles, and and then there is always this threat that anything can go wrong and there can be influences, uh, there can be vested interests, there can be transnational influences.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So the strong community media can uh be a good defense against that kind of threats or manipulations.
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Rob Watson: In terms of the I want to go back to the kind of structural and strategic thinking about this but I want to maybe focus for a minute on the interpersonal relationships and I feel from my perspective as well there was a little bit of kind of when you first arrived offloading.
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Rob Watson: That’s what the researcher often gets. There’s a lot of pent up anxiety, frustration, history from different people across the spectrum all seeing these things from different perspectives and not being able to have a a way to work through some of the difficult issues that you know whether it’s functional issues, whether it’s perception issues, whether it’s whatever kind of issues they are.
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Rob Watson: There’s and and what was it like when you first started to engage with people and you know we’ve got you know the the different media groups, community media groups that we’ve got you know like the Evington Echo, like you know Source FM or whatever you know whichever groups you’ve dealt with and there’s a range of them. What was that like? Did how did you how did you feel at that point?
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Shumaila Jaffery: I I thought that this is you see it's not a very rewarding um job, it's like it's not a career even, right? So who people who are um engaged with or contributing to community media mostly they are driven by their own just commitment to the community or or to the place where they are living.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um so I I met Harjesh, Harjesh is a community reporter for Evington Echo and he's basically a a translator and he earns his living like doing different jobs, um, journalism or community journalism or whatever he does for Evington Echo is not his source of income but he's so passionate about it and he keeps contributing to the local publication.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um and I felt that really fascinating and I I mean I have a lot of respect for Harjesh uh because not many people are I mean everybody's busy, life is so busy, so you know if somebody is taking that pain where they are they are covering different events going to different places and then taking a out time to write something and produce something and post something.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And then Helen herself you know she's so old and uh she's so inspirational. Uh she doesn't need anything now. She can have she can just retire and have a comfortable life. She's doing that work. And and then um it's all almost like you know mostly people who are working in community media they're almost like ideological like almost.
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Rob Watson: Fanatical.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Fanatical. Yes. Yes. So that that also I found quite fascinating. But you need that drive that passion that you know something immaterial I would say to you know work in community media.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So there should be more support, um, there should be more uh financial incentives and I think with this whole kind of thing of social media and hate and polarization I think a stronger community media uh is can be again I would say provide some level of information resilience uh against uh manipulation or hate agendas or whatever you would like to call them.
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Rob Watson: It’s one of the things that’s difficult to write up, I mean it’s the respect you know or the acknowledgement of the privileged position of the researcher. And it opens doors but it also puts you on a pedestal and you’ve got some responsibility when you’re working with people to to make sure that you don’t as we say lead them up the garden path.
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Rob Watson: However, um, the other side of it is that when you’ve gained people’s trust and acceptance that the doors are opened and you see things and that’s why the observation is so important to going to events and we did the International Language Day. Um, and that was you know not very well attended by visitors but we had a really good time by the people who came having some detailed conversations.
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Rob Watson: Um, what what would be in the way that you think are think you know you’ve got to think about how you account for those experiences. Um can you separate out the uh you know the function from the sense of belonging that goes that is drawn through these things is that thing when you’re working in community situations what we call loosely I know I use the word community less and less these days it becomes too almost kind of problematic to use.
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Rob Watson: But when you work in those situations where you’ve got groups of people who come together to commune there is a joy there, there is a connection there, when it works. Uh which is which is hard to describe and account for in itself but you’ve also got to step back from it and look at it in a kind of contextual historical you know political kind of lens as well to say hang on a minute this is part of a wider process or situation.
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Rob Watson: Uh how do you think you’ll approach reflecting on that before you start your write up? You know how do you think that you’ll chew this over?
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Shumaila Jaffery: See I I've seen things changing in in Leicester since I arrived. So when I came and I initially I attended a couple of.
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Rob Watson: I think that’s a lot to do with the weather because you know you came in January and now it’s spring, so it makes a big difference.
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Shumaila Jaffery: I think I think it has something to do with the report, uh, with the SOAS-led report, um, I I I understand that you know it's not perfect and there would never be consensus that you know 100 percent or a majority of people would agree on something.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But when I when I came and I attended a couple of community events and I felt that uh people were they would come together but there was this heaviness, there was this heaviness as if there is an elephant in the room and nobody wants to address that.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And with this report not everybody liked it. Um I think at least there is a some kind of you know people have got closure of course there are people who are still waiting for the government inquiry to be released but at least people have got something, a document.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And now they're asking what next, what next. And whatever you say at least there is now kind of some understanding of what happened at that time because I've been talking to people and local people did not know what was happening.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Some people even came to know about the um the unrest, you know, the next day through media living in this city as a researcher I could see that it was building up from like a few years even, you know, I I can say that.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um, so now at least they've got a bigger picture, they know that these are the things they have been established. Okay, we don't agree with the 10 out of 10 but maybe two you know things the report is pointing out they are correct. So there is now a movement okay what's next.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I I think you know whether it's the political arena or it's media or it's social cohesion people are thinking about new projects okay what can we do so it does not happen again.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And then I during Ramadan I was here and I attended you know again I feel privileged uh that I was invited and I got the opportunity to attend the interfaith Iftar which was you know it held it happened on the same Belgrave Road where the you know one of the most ugliest pictures of the unrest you know which was beamed all over the world you know came out from that you know same road.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So this Iftar where all communities of Leicester they came together, they broke bread together, the atmosphere, the symbolism of that you know I was there and uh so initially it was like you know religious ceremony, you know there were prayers and then when but when food came how people were like talking to each other, people were hugging each other.
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Shumaila Jaffery: There were conversations, it was and it felt like big Desi wedding where you know everybody's like having a lot loads of food and they are talking and hugging and standing and sitting and it was like big kind of living room. And I felt really kind of um I saw that you know the warmth.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So that kind of for me uh was like you know I I really kind of I'm a researcher and outsider but even being an outsider you know it warmed my heart to be there that evening. So uh I think for me I'm a trained as a BBC journalist so there is you know the system in my kind of brain where you just switch off your own so I'm very aware of my own positionality.
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Shumaila Jaffery: When I came here when I was coming here I was very aware of my own positionality. That's why I had some fears that you know whether people would talk to me or not, whether they would trust me or not, I have a big baggage of my journalism, of my own identity. But I I think that when I will start writing about things, um, there is a process in my brain I'll switch that off.
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Rob Watson: You’ve given me an interesting thought there because actually one of the things when you come to Leicester, and I feel this myself when I visit elsewhere and then come back, it’s like get over yourself. You’re not important. There’s so much going on, it’s like kind of your positionality doesn’t matter. Nobody cares.
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Rob Watson: And it’s and that’s you know that’s like glass half full half empty, it’s sometimes it’s important and then sometimes it just doesn’t and there’s that element to it which kind of actually is quite grounding in a way.
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Rob Watson: I wanted to ask you which is related to that which is the idea of as a professional journalist and again you know you’re processing the reflections and your field notes and everything and your observations and um but are there any things that you would think about that in terms about the journalistic process? Not uh the product you know not the the occurrences itself and and people’s reaction to but about the journalistic process.
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Rob Watson: That you think need to be dealt with is there an urgency that we need to review how you know the the large media organizations just from a kind of professional journalism management process? Is there anything that you’ve kind of would would jump out at this point where you could say look we this is something that’s going to have to be dealt with.
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Rob Watson: Or I mean is it too early for you to come up with any kind of conclusions like that? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, obviously but it’s you know at what you know is there are there any reflections that you’d want to pass on to colleagues in professional journalism?
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was and when I interviewed you know uh a lot of people and I would ask them about Leicester's media landscape because I'm interested in and Leicester is like so many other cities in the world are now you know diverse and so it what's true for Leicester it it can be replicated you know in other parts of the world as well.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was very interested and I would ask them about you know what kind of media do you have, how do you get your news, um and do different communities get news from the same same news news source or are there different news streams? Um, so I think uh at the at the moment the challenge is the same you know the social media and Leicester has a lot of diaspora population.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And diaspora population is uh especially the younger uh the older older generation and new migrants, they are very much attuned to consuming news and current affairs using sources from back home or country country of origin. Um and then uh another thing that kind of jumped out to me was representation.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I could not find any Muslim journalist and this is the city where I think at the moment Muslims are the kind of biggest uh population group in terms of religion and uh so it took me some time and I came to know that there was this one woman journalist but now she's working for BBC Nottingham and then there's another one but she's a freelancer she's not a full-time journalist.
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Shumaila Jaffery: I could not find a male journalist in mainstream media. Um so that was uh kind of a little bit eye opening for me then Leicester Mercury, I mean it it has become a shadow of what it used to be, a very small team but then it is all again uh white and ITV has uh they kind of it seems that they they get it, it's not just you know to to check boxes that you need to have certain you know number of people.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But at the same time if you want to understand the stories of of those communities I think then representation matters and I was told again and again that uh the mainstream media, the national media, the international media did not get the story of the 2022 Leicester riots uh right. Um but then there wasn't a stronger kind of local media that that could have told that story more effectively.
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Shumaila Jaffery: That wasn't there. The BBC has been gutted of its resources because of partially because of cuts or policies or I don't know it's a very complicated debate. But the BBC Leicester was not in that position.
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Rob Watson: The general policy for BBC Local Radio in England, it was never described and they’ve resisted in their press statements that it was dis- it was a cut. It was always described as a redeployment of resources to to a re- regional digital first and that it was expected.
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Rob Watson: I mean this the 22 events took place just before the policy was changed but the follow on has you know as happened subsequently but they uh you know I’m not speaking for the BBC but they it’s not an issue of cut, it’s an issue of reprioritization and the I think it exposes a and I know lots of people have talked about this nationally it and and challenged Ofcom on this as well and and DCMS, the government on this.
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Rob Watson: Is that the it exposes a failure in terms of the BBC model which claims to improve journalism and relevance of those stories because they’re in a more you know it’s like the health service having a team of heart surgeons and you’ve got a group who work in a specialist unit and they can provide better service but they not they’ve lost that dispersal within the the places where those you losing your your general practitioners if you like.
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Rob Watson: So it’s like a balance between the two and and it’s tipped too far towards centralization, so.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
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Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
00:30:35.000 --> 00:31:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
00:31:35.000 --> 00:32:05.000
Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:30.000
Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:55.000
Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:15.000
Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:35:05.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:36:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:36:35.000 --> 00:37:00.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:25.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:45.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:37:45.000 --> 00:38:10.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:35.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:38:35.000 --> 00:39:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Now I can say that because I'm a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You're researching this and you've had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:40:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:41:05.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
00:41:35.000 --> 00:42:05.000
Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:30.000
Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:55.000
Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:15.000
Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:40.000
Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:34:05.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:40.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:35:05.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:45:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:45:40.000 --> 00:46:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:35.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:46:35.000 --> 00:47:00.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:25.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:50.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:47:50.000 --> 00:48:15.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Now I can say that because I'm a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You're researching this and you've had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:48:40.000 --> 00:49:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So I was so when it was when it started happening I was part of the BBC and I think the main idea was to uh to kind of you know cut duplication again because of funding and because of you know to to save resources. I think internationally for international deployments you know they have language services. So probably that model would have worked.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But centralization of planning and commissioning for for local communities for cities like Leicester I don't think that it has I mean this is the feedback that I've got from people, not it's not my personal opinion but it seems that you know based on what I've been talking to and hearing from people, um people feel that the BBC has become more distant.
00:49:40.000 --> 00:50:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the 2022 unrest they they thought the BBC the BBC was you know far behind and whatever they did they don't question that, they said okay that that was fine but it was delayed and it was too little and too late, you know, that kind of stuff. But then uh I think so you know to sum up, you asked me, so I think there needs to be more again we come back to the strong local uh reliable trusted media source.
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Which is respected and accessible to and representative of all communities in Leicester. So people stop living in their bubbles and but but then it is also important to educate people about you know so media literacy is I think so integral to it's not that you can you can just you know keep putting money in different media ventures including community media but then people don't use them.
00:50:40.000 --> 00:51:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Um so it's also very important that media literacy also go hand in hand with wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:40.000
Rob Watson: And it’s part of that one of the one of my concerns is I always say you know it’s all very well having if you like ideological political or policy concerns but at some point you’ve got to roll your sleeves up and get involved. And learning how learning by doing is the most you know it’s the participatory form that drives lasting change and if for for media in a way is if you are a so the community reporters model.
00:51:40.000 --> 00:52:10.000
Rob Watson: That we’ve we’ve we’ve we’ve developed through various practices at Decentered Media, it’s hard to get people to fund and support that and engage with that because it’s seen as it’s media, you know, it’s like that’s done by professionals or it’s social media that’s done by people you know relaxing on their phones in front of the TV or something.
00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:35.000
Rob Watson: And the the center ground, the center part of this where you are embedded in a place, part of a network or a group of people or a community and you’re actually in practice learning how to tell and share stories responsibly and accountably so that people can trust them. And I I it’s the thing I think in the SOAS report it was that how do you prove an absence.
00:52:35.000 --> 00:53:00.000
Rob Watson: So either we’ve been doing community media in Leicester responsibly, um, but I think one of the challenges is that we don’t really we don’t do journalism or we’re maybe asking too much of community media in that respect but given the resources that we’ve got. But it’s uh maybe we’ve been too responsible and we didn’t look at these issues and try and air them in a way.
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:25.000
Rob Watson: That kind of explored them more we kind of held cautiously to the so we didn’t we didn’t cause any ripples on the surface of the pond, if you like. It was just smooth. So therefore it people then looked at it and they looked elsewhere. They saw the ripples in the pond in the international media, national and international media and in the social media but not in the local community media environment.
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:50.000
Rob Watson: Because that’s that didn’t it was placid. And so therefore there was nobody’s attention was drawn to it. It’s like when you’ve got I suppose you the image comes to mind you’ve got three children, one of them’s very very effusively adoring of their parents. You get children like this, I was never like that.
00:53:50.000 --> 00:54:15.000
Rob Watson: And you get children who are very naughty and you know kind of pushing the boundaries all the time and the middle one is kind of left alone and they don’t bother anybody and they’re the one that you’ve got to watch out for. You know it’s like the one you can see the others, the others are visible but the one that you don’t see and it’s a little bit like that that you know with our community media we’ve kind of because we’ve acted responsibly.
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:40.000
Rob Watson: That’s seen it from one perspective, actually we’ve done our job properly. But because we’re not pushing it as far as we can because we’ve not got the capacity and the resources to do that it’s kind of just you know the child who is sitting in the corner reading a book or playing their game playing their phone or something.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:55:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But you see so that's where the gap is and and I think this is the challenge that uh how you bring people back to and make them interested in place-based media which is uh I think I it which is based on their civic identity instead of you know ethnic identity or religious identity. That's fine, people can consume material from the wherever they want to.
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: But if if there is something local happening they should have they should know what is happening around them, they should participate in the in the civic life, um, you know buses and roads and schools and and that that kind of stuff. And also if if it is about a some community in their city they should not tune into a foreign channel to get that information.
00:55:40.000 --> 00:56:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And if and I mean people not even tuning into, it's coming on their phone. So before believing the information which is coming from a from another country why it's not even.
00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:35.000
Rob Watson: So that kind of that’s a really important question to unpack because there’s a real benefit. I mean what an age that we live in that you’ve got globalized media. We often we get scared of the prospect and we kind of pull back and people say oh you know we need to control this and it’s like no, no, we we it can be an open system. We want an open system but there’s teething problems about how we deal with this.
00:56:35.000 --> 00:57:00.000
Rob Watson: And if somebody’s first port of call is an a clearly motivated and antagonistic news platform from somewhere else in the world that you can’t look at the verification of that but you can access it, uh and if it’s that if that’s your first port of call for your news and information, you’ve kind of got to take responsibility yourself about that.
00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:25.000
Rob Watson: Uh but if there’s no local alternatives that people can turn to and go, you know what, it might be the world’s most boring station, but when there’s a problem in Leicester I listen to this station. Um that used to be the BBC and I think it’s less you know that that’s the the I’ve described it in the past and I’ve said this in the BBC should hang its head in shame.
00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:50.000
Rob Watson: About its role locally because that its job is to serve the citizens of the UK and the people who live here. And if there’s problems around the country and they’re not supporting that I think that being held to account and I think the journalists who work and the producers who work in the BBC would agree with me in that. And say but the leadership of the BBC and government and the policy regulation all that kind of stuff is letting people down.
00:57:50.000 --> 00:58:15.000
Rob Watson: Now I can say that because I’m a bit more I can be a bit more forthright about that. You’re researching this and you’ve had to be a bit more balanced about it and look at those kind of claims.
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:20.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So we keep criticizing social media but then social media also sometimes it is very helpful. And I found you on social media when I was thinking about and planning to do my placement in Leicester and I found you on LinkedIn and then I got in touch with you.
00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So first of all I also you know want to thank you for trusting me and give me the opportunity uh to come here and and work with you and I I remember that you immediately responded and then we had an online call and you said okay fine.
00:58:40.000 --> 00:59:00.000
Shumaila Jaffery: You wanted you also wanted to contribute. I mean it aligns with Decentered Media's um mission and vision and that you want to be part of you know research which which is being done to improve media landscape and environment in the UK and around the world.
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:15.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So but how has been your experience with me and when I was coming to Leicester you know what kind of perception or thoughts you had in mind? And now when I'm I'm going back to Leeds...
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:40.000
Rob Watson: Well you’ll be missed it’s been great. I mean it’s I’ve really enjoyed it. And you know you’re you the work that you’re doing is thought provoking and that’s high praise from me. You know we were saying earlier about the the British don’t do praise, you know it’s so we don’t accept it and we don’t give it. And yeah it was all right, yeah, yeah.
00:59:40.000 --> 01:00:05.000
Rob Watson: You were fine, yeah. You know that’s about the level that’s high praise. But it’s yeah no it is because I think it’s it’s uh a good friend John Coster uh says you know one of his famous phrases is you never a profit in your own land. And it it feels a little bit like by like that you know we’ve been going around in circles a little bit and then it just takes what a an external independent person.
01:00:05.000 --> 01:00:20.000
Rob Watson: To come along and go oh my god. You know oh my goodness this is this you know this is what’s going on here. And you kind of look at it and you go oh so it wasn’t me, it’s the kind of context. So that’s in that’s incredibly useful and not to take that for granted.
01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:45.000
Rob Watson: Because I think the danger is that you create your own echo chamber and your bubble but we have a I think what I really enjoy is I’ve learned so much from you from your experience but you also don’t put up with a lot of the you’re very polite and and you have a good way of pushing back against some of the things that I say.
01:00:45.000 --> 01:01:10.000
Rob Watson: And because I can come out I’m thinking things through and that’s often you know dangerous territory where you kind of go does this make sense and then you go and you engage with that and that draws out a good level of thinking and I think that’s quite that’s been very useful for me. So I’ve benefited a lot.
01:01:10.000 --> 01:01:35.000
Rob Watson: So as the you know last Wednesday when we did our workshop with community media leaders um and at the end of the workshop you asked Sam our another colleague and how was it and he said it was all right. And I was listening and I said just all right? This is what you tell me then they ask you how was it and what should I have said it was wonderful and it was great it was amazing.
01:01:35.000 --> 01:01:40.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And he blushed!
01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:55.000
Rob Watson: Yeah that’s how to catch if you want to catch a Brit out then that’s how you know somebody’s British. Yeah yeah offer them some praise and you’ll see them run in the opposite direction. It’s like we’re not Americans you know or Australians very different.
01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: And he quickly you know blushed when I and I was just you know kind of kidding and...
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:35.000
Rob Watson: Well I really I really enjoyed that evening. I mean despite the fact that we bought far too many samosas for it but it was um it was good to be able to and I think the question one of the things that I remember from that it kind of stays with me because you started off in the presentation talking about the public sphere and about the marketplace and the whole model of kind of.
01:02:35.000 --> 01:03:00.000
Rob Watson: And then it was the question kind of look we’ve been doing this for thousands of years. Have we not figured out the answers yet? And it’s say when you when you’re talking to people and the defeatism comes in and the expectations that oh you know this dealing with this social media is really difficult and dealing with the international media. No it’s not.
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:25.000
Rob Watson: It’s just the same as having a couple of cranks coming into the marketplace and start spouting bile or whatever it is. There’s mechanisms that we keep drawing on that bring it back to a a common ground. It’s like you know if you know there’s ways that it’s worked in the past that we just have to maybe revisit those things again and go we can calm ourselves down.
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:50.000
Rob Watson: Yes the technology’s different, yes the platform, yes the scale is different, the globalized scale of it is different. But the principle of the human principles are by and large the same.
01:03:50.000 --> 01:04:15.000
Shumaila Jaffery: So the so the challenge is how you bring people back to one single public sphere.
01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:40.000
Rob Watson: Yeah, yeah. So my last question for you because we should wrap up soon I think is is how do you feel now?
01:04:40.000 --> 01:05:10.000
Shumaila Jaffery: Well I think I'm still at the stage where you know it's still you know tomorrow is the last day and it's all booked and I'm still kind of getting doing new things, meeting new people, new conversations. I think when I go back after a couple of days things would start you know sinking in.
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:35.000
Shumaila Jaffery: I've been do taking a lot you know loads of notes and and memos writing memos and everything but I think I've done a lot in in the last 11 weeks and um when I go back so the way I used to so I read about Leicester a lot.
01:05:35.000 --> 01:06:00.000
Shumaila Jaffery: I mean I've been engaged with this topic um since the unrest happened in 2022, about demography, about geography, about history, about economy, um what happened in the 2022. I mean even before the SOAS report came I I knew everything. There was nothing that I was really shocked about uh that I did not know of.
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Shumaila Jaffery: And some of those thing things I had been discussing with you as well before the report came. Um but it was still an outsider view. Now I in you know living here and I made that that choice very thoughtfully that I should live here, it's not that I come and go and come and go.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Um and I have made like really good connections um and tried to be for a very small time part of the social fabric, social life of of Leicester. I think I still am not at that stage because I'm still in in the in the pot or in the process. When I go back and I think after a few days I then the process will start where I can tell the difference.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But it's going to be a very different view of Leicester. I felt Leicester embraced me and and I felt at home. I felt very comfortable. I did not for a second feel you know this so when I came so people said you know there are communities and they do not go to you know certain areas.
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Shumaila Jaffery: I've been to all different areas, I've been traveling through bus, I've been walking around the city. I never ever felt unsafe.
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Rob Watson: At some point you have to step back from that and kind of go my personal feelings I’ve got to objectify this as well. The one thing I would say which is kind of that you know in when I did my PhD research is transcription was manual. So all the recordings I did it’s like it took months and months and months.
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Rob Watson: Whereas now you can your recordings that you’ve taken you can automate the the transcription in and pretty much so you’ll be you’ll be able to then probe into that in a bit of a deeper way but.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Although we can't we can't use all kind of softwares. There are limited we can use. But yes but there is an option you know transcription.
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Rob Watson: Yeah yeah transcription software I’d say it’s a must these days you can’t you can’t spend three months doing doing half an hour’s worth of audio recordings transcription that’s beyond anybody’s these days but. No but from the from that point of view of kind of that reflection yes I look you know it’s um when I look back on the research I did it actually is you you value it.
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Rob Watson: And over time you kind of realize that it was you’ve experienced something it’s unique you know and you have to you have to be involved and it’s always a principle you know encourage more people to do this kind of participant observation or ethnographic research.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Well some people have here have been also telling me why you have selected this this topic. You PhD research could have been easier, nobody's going to be happy, it's a very difficult and complicated topic and said okay.
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Shumaila Jaffery: But you have to meet with people, you can't do it theoretically and that drives it.
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Rob Watson: Yes it is what it is. And I think we touched upon all these issues in our recent workshop that we did with community media leaders and um I think it was a good way to start a conversation after this SOAS-led report. So to talk about solutions that how can you uh kind of come up with strategies.
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Rob Watson: Of course resources are needed, but what also needs to be done to make people interested, to bring them back to wherever you know if there is any investment wherever you want to do some kind of work, then people should also be educated about that this is important, this is your local source, and you can you should get your news from there.
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Rob Watson: So we’re going to look forward to to revisiting this topic in future. We maybe do in a few months time we’ll do an online chat if you don’t come back to Leicester before then but when you do and you visit fleeting visits.
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Rob Watson: So there’ll be a lot to follow on with I think. I think you’re going to maybe have a list of things that you need to add but we we you know it’s been great having you here and over very very much enjoyed it. It’s given me a spur of a kind of a bit of affirmation which is useful. So that’s good.
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Rob Watson: So if you want to get in contact with Decentered Media, Rob contact us at Decentered Media on the social media platforms and the website is decentered.co.uk.
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Rob Watson: Um if you want to support uh Decentered Media we have a Patreon account uh which we use as well to support some of the other projects that we work on so such as Radio Lear which is the arts-based community radio station.
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Rob Watson: That we’re developing and establishing and it might pay for some samosas at another event that we do in the future. So it’s always welcome. So until next time, thank you very much.
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Shumaila Jaffery: Thank you.
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Rob Watson: You’ve been listening to the Decentered Media podcast with me, Rob Watson. To find out more, go to decentered.co.uk or follow on Twitter and Instagram @decenteredmedia.
