S23E7: When "Protecting Your Peace" Keeps You From Love w/ Amanda White

WEBVTT
00:00.697 --> 00:03.259
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, I'm Yui Shiu, and I'm Julie Craftscheck.
00:03.460 --> 00:05.802
[SPEAKER_01]: We're active data's turn dating insiders.
00:05.982 --> 00:09.265
[SPEAKER_01]: Here to dive into everything modern dating and relationships.
00:09.605 --> 00:10.666
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to Datable.
00:18.072 --> 00:18.752
[SPEAKER_01]: Hello, friends.
00:19.412 --> 00:21.733
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to another episode of Datable.
00:21.953 --> 00:24.874
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you a victim of therapy culture and therapy speak?
00:25.574 --> 00:38.697
[SPEAKER_01]: Therapy talk and all of that when it comes to dating and your everyday, I think you can't really go without therapy talk these days when you have an interaction with someone else, but when has it gone too far?
00:38.957 --> 00:42.378
[SPEAKER_01]: And when does it become detrimental for a society?
00:42.618 --> 00:45.819
[SPEAKER_01]: We have an actual therapist today to talk about this
00:48.159 --> 00:53.246
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, her name is Amanda White and you might know her at therapy for women on Instagram.
00:53.266 --> 01:04.381
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where you know, I've seen so many of her posts and I think what she really touches on is like we can't let like some of these like healing laywoods that we you know spoo out like
01:04.661 --> 01:14.083
[SPEAKER_02]: protect my peace or you know all these like more things that we feel like are helping us but actually might be pushing us away from relationships and other people.
01:14.303 --> 01:30.787
[SPEAKER_02]: So she really toes a really good line of like obviously as pro therapy and things that's very different than therapy speak on the internet and how do we use therapy in a way to you know untangle what's going on for us and connect better with people versus using language
01:34.708 --> 01:35.029
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
01:35.229 --> 01:43.758
[SPEAKER_01]: And the three of us go into detail about when is messiness in a relationship actually beneficial for growth versus being toxic.
01:43.978 --> 01:54.549
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there is also a thin line between the two and sometimes when we overtherapize, we skip over the the natural messiness that could help us in a relationship.
01:54.729 --> 01:56.070
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and people are human.
01:56.291 --> 01:57.472
[SPEAKER_02]: People are the best see.
01:57.592 --> 02:01.756
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I think we can't just cut out people for every last thing.
02:01.776 --> 02:06.860
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a difference of, you know, when someone shows you a pattern and they are not actually healthy for you.
02:07.181 --> 02:10.664
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely take action, but just because people...
02:11.024 --> 02:34.455
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, aren't do we every last thing or saying everything that aligns with you 100% doesn't mean that that's like a reason to, you know, not engage either like that's what pushes us to develop further and the reality is like we will be different than the people we love, but that actually that difference can be really beautiful and it can be what makes us grow and learn and develop.
02:34.735 --> 02:43.648
[SPEAKER_01]: And so then we want to really understand, and this is a big question we have for Amanda, is what's a difference between healing and being emotionally healthy?
02:43.668 --> 02:44.549
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're different.
02:44.569 --> 02:49.896
[SPEAKER_01]: You could be still healing, but be emotionally healthy enough to be a good partner.
02:49.916 --> 02:50.417
[SPEAKER_01]: So she,
02:51.438 --> 02:55.122
[SPEAKER_01]: It lays out some really great framework for understanding the two.
02:55.262 --> 03:12.661
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this episode is just a really good way to look at like how therapy can help us, like become the best versions of ourselves and be open to the people around us instead of using self protection blocks that really aren't getting us to where we want to go.
03:12.902 --> 03:13.122
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
03:13.302 --> 03:16.565
[SPEAKER_02]: We're excited to dive into this with Amanda.
03:16.725 --> 03:19.828
[SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't got an art book yet, go pick it up.
03:19.988 --> 03:20.969
[SPEAKER_02]: How to be dateable?
03:21.069 --> 03:33.059
[SPEAKER_02]: It's another way to help you connect better with other people and to keep your standards, your expectations, but also be open to what other people can bring.
03:33.119 --> 03:35.701
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's all of this is kind of towing that balance.
03:35.801 --> 03:39.484
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can go to how to be dateable.com to get the book.
03:39.885 --> 03:40.245
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay?
03:40.505 --> 03:41.810
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll before we get into it.
03:41.870 --> 03:43.958
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's take a minute to hear from our sponsors.
03:44.199 --> 03:46.206
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's hear from Amanda.
03:51.950 --> 04:00.612
[SPEAKER_01]: But we love that therapy has given us some incredible tools and vocabulary around how we're feeling and navigating conflict.
04:01.033 --> 04:10.015
[SPEAKER_01]: But there is also a point where therapy culture has done a little bit damage in terms of our relationships and the way we speak to each other.
04:10.175 --> 04:14.356
[SPEAKER_01]: So Julie and I have talked about this just a two of us on a previous episode, but we
04:20.818 --> 04:24.202
[SPEAKER_01]: could be potentially damaging the way we speak to each other.
04:24.563 --> 04:28.527
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, and that's our guest today, Amanda White, welcome to Datable.
04:28.708 --> 04:30.149
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me.
04:30.189 --> 04:31.791
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to chat with you guys.
04:31.991 --> 04:32.872
[SPEAKER_02]: We are so excited.
04:32.892 --> 04:37.177
[SPEAKER_02]: We've been following your Instagram for a long time and you've said some bold
04:38.579 --> 04:44.746
[SPEAKER_02]: like therapy culture coming from a therapist do, that therapy culture that internet has done real damage.
04:45.427 --> 04:47.990
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think it is that gets nuanced?
04:48.510 --> 04:58.341
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when it gets like psychological concepts get reduced down to like Instagram quotes and TikTok videos and all the stuff that's kind of infiltrated this.
04:58.541 --> 04:59.042
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
04:59.382 --> 05:22.424
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I think like where I'll start first is I think people, I think the first damage it does is that people think therapy speak is therapy, like they think that that someone being able to say, you know, you're gaslighting me or they diagnose themselves, they think like I think that's the broadest place that this goes wrong.
05:23.064 --> 05:34.530
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it really turns off I think people who do need help from maybe seeking therapy because they kind of have a misperception of this or they think well I've read all this stuff online.
05:34.590 --> 05:36.411
[SPEAKER_00]: I've learned about all of this stuff.
05:36.451 --> 05:46.596
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't really need to go to therapy because I know a bunch of terms and I understand myself really well, and that is not what therapy is really at all
05:47.196 --> 06:11.547
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we've definitely seen that and I've actually spoken to people who use a lot of therapy speak who've never been to therapy themselves because it's so so much ingrained in our everyday vocabulary, so we're just kind of like overusing these terms like I had a friend say I'm holding space I'm like holding space for what do you know what that means she's like no I don't but I'm holding space right now
06:11.827 --> 06:29.521
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you see a lot of that as well as just like we are we think we are better just because we're using the vocabulary absolutely and I think that's what's really hard is like I never want to say because like I use different words to now right like culture is this weird thing where.
06:29.641 --> 06:51.066
[SPEAKER_00]: We, you know, talk about certain things and then, you know, the meaning of something changes and I never want to be telling people like you shouldn't talk how you want to talk like, you know, there's inside jokes now, I think about trauma and, you know, like PTSD and things like that and I really don't even think that necessarily is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a person who is a
06:51.126 --> 06:51.726
[SPEAKER_00]: problem.
06:51.906 --> 07:10.354
[SPEAKER_00]: It's more I think when we lose sort of the understanding of what what the word should actually mean, like a very helpful way to understand it, is there is something called concept creep, which basically means that the word as it originally started creeps, right?
07:10.434 --> 07:12.254
[SPEAKER_00]: It like expands out.
07:12.434 --> 07:12.895
[SPEAKER_00]: It expands.
07:12.935 --> 07:13.855
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like gaslighting.
07:13.955 --> 07:16.076
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, gaslighting, right?
07:16.176 --> 07:18.897
[SPEAKER_00]: It was literally word of the year a few years ago.
07:19.497 --> 07:19.797
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
07:20.137 --> 07:28.559
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's absolutely concept-craft where it applies to a much wider range of situations, and it also applies to a lot more people.
07:28.919 --> 07:32.840
[SPEAKER_00]: And when that happens, we sort of lose the original definition of gaslighting.
07:33.040 --> 07:39.522
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you think any sort of disagreement, for example, in a conversation, is gaslighting.
07:39.962 --> 07:45.103
[SPEAKER_00]: people who are actually being gas lit, struggle to identify what's happening.
07:45.123 --> 08:04.088
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's almost like we need other like if you can joke about it and you know you're joking, I think that's something distinct, but when you actually don't know what you're saying or you're using it to control someone else or like, you know, misrepresent your experience, I think that's where we get into trouble.
08:04.248 --> 08:11.552
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think at least the way I see it, that there's kind of like these two fallouts that have happened in terms of dating a relationship.
08:11.592 --> 08:12.552
[SPEAKER_02]: This probably more than two.
08:12.572 --> 08:14.733
[SPEAKER_02]: At least these are the two that are top of mind for me.
08:14.973 --> 08:19.035
[SPEAKER_02]: It is fun that it makes it really easy to cut off someone.
08:19.416 --> 08:22.017
[SPEAKER_02]: Like when we're cutting off people prematurely like,
08:22.497 --> 08:28.761
[SPEAKER_02]: any little thing that happens, it's like, yeah, they're gaslighting me or, you know, I'm protecting my piece or whatever it is.
08:28.781 --> 08:31.803
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, we're just anything to cut someone off, we're doing it.
08:32.123 --> 08:40.908
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the second piece is on ourselves that it's like, I, I don't like, deserve love or I'm not good enough.
08:40.948 --> 08:44.190
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in this perpetual self-improvement cycle.
08:44.390 --> 08:48.053
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess, do you have other things that you think are follow-outs of this?
08:52.055 --> 08:54.496
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I totally agree with those.
08:54.516 --> 08:57.298
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to think of sometimes therapy speak.
08:57.658 --> 09:01.641
[SPEAKER_00]: It has become like armor, and it can also become a weapon.
09:02.381 --> 09:09.285
[SPEAKER_00]: So it can become armor for us in the example you gave of I'm going on a date, I'm afraid.
09:09.305 --> 09:11.286
[SPEAKER_00]: I see one thing that someone does that,
09:12.187 --> 09:16.910
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't like or makes me a little uncomfortable and it is so easy for me.
09:17.230 --> 09:20.132
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is so easy for me to jump to a label, right?
09:20.172 --> 09:30.378
[SPEAKER_00]: It's one thing to just have an egg, but there is the problem with like therapy speak really is that when you have this psychological term, it has so much weight behind it.
09:30.738 --> 09:47.845
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's sort of can kind of be this Trump card that you can pull out and use to defend yourself when it's armor or to hurt someone else when you're using it as a weapon of saying, that's your trauma response or your a narcissist store.
09:48.065 --> 09:53.327
[SPEAKER_00]: My therapist note, you know, my therapist says this, that's where it can come a weapon to.
09:53.487 --> 09:56.970
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we've definitely overly weaponized therapy.
09:57.310 --> 10:07.559
[SPEAKER_01]: I also find that some people aren't that honest in therapy, but then they use it as a way to validate their dishonesty.
10:07.659 --> 10:10.361
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think about my ex all the time in the scenario.
10:10.761 --> 10:16.006
[SPEAKER_01]: He was cheating on me for months, but didn't tell his therapist and had it for your couple's therapist.
10:16.626 --> 10:23.469
[SPEAKER_01]: Or our couple therapy had, you know, just like, was in therapy twice a week and never once mentioned his infidelity.
10:23.930 --> 10:36.676
[SPEAKER_01]: But he created this echo chamber of therapists who supported him in healing from his trauma and validating his actions without directly knowing what the fuck he was doing.
10:37.036 --> 10:39.677
[SPEAKER_01]: So I see that
10:45.980 --> 10:46.120
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
10:46.461 --> 10:47.381
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, absolutely.
10:47.461 --> 10:54.888
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's, it's really hard because, like, as a therapist, I do only know what someone is bringing to me.
10:54.908 --> 10:55.188
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
10:55.428 --> 10:55.748
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
10:55.768 --> 11:00.993
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't claim to also know the depths of them.
11:01.153 --> 11:07.298
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and I don't claim to know, you know, as a therapist, my job is not to kind of decide the truth.
11:07.658 --> 11:07.898
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:07.978 --> 11:08.779
[SPEAKER_02]: How could you?
11:09.019 --> 11:09.580
[SPEAKER_02]: You can't.
11:09.920 --> 11:10.240
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:10.360 --> 11:15.104
[SPEAKER_00]: My job is to help someone like re-contactualize their world.
11:15.164 --> 11:19.148
[SPEAKER_00]: My job is to help be a mirror so that someone can see their patterns.
11:19.348 --> 11:19.528
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
11:19.568 --> 11:25.993
[SPEAKER_00]: If someone is, you know, showing signs of not being dishonest, even if I don't know, I can try to show that.
11:26.013 --> 11:29.136
[SPEAKER_00]: But ultimately, that I can't do anything about it.
11:29.156 --> 11:31.238
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it is this hard thing, too, where
11:36.682 --> 11:41.765
[SPEAKER_00]: lie in some capacities and be able to kind of say that they're doing the work.
11:41.905 --> 11:53.332
[SPEAKER_00]: They're working on themselves and it's like, that doesn't, like, again, that's why therapy speaking therapy are different because going to therapy really, like, it is a place to start.
11:53.792 --> 11:55.533
[SPEAKER_00]: But therapy isn't magic.
11:55.933 --> 12:05.978
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to, it's like, you know, it's like going to the gym and only using the spa like it's, you have to be responsible for what you're doing at the end of the day.
12:06.098 --> 12:08.380
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't make someone change.
12:08.560 --> 12:08.980
[SPEAKER_00]: So do you think?
12:09.140 --> 12:37.616
[SPEAKER_02]: it's too simplistic to say that therapy speak like the goal that people see is validation or do you think that isn't what's drawing them and then maybe like if you could level set like what is the goal of therapy because I feel like a lot of times people go to therapy to you know magically solve some issue in their love life or you know something and their personal life that isn't going the way it they think they should be at whatever age or whatever
12:38.997 --> 12:40.458
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question.
12:40.518 --> 12:51.624
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, what I would kind of say is the goal of therapy is the best way I can describe it is people come with like big tingled knots of what's going on in their life.
12:51.744 --> 12:53.645
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it is like dating, right?
12:53.665 --> 12:57.006
[SPEAKER_00]: They have their past, their emotions, their thoughts, their beliefs.
12:57.046 --> 13:01.749
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all tingled up and my job as a therapist is to help them separate all of that.
13:02.149 --> 13:12.835
[SPEAKER_00]: So they can make better decisions, I can point them to resources of maybe they also need to, you know, seek medication, maybe they need to change different habits in their life.
13:13.055 --> 13:25.362
[SPEAKER_00]: When it comes to obviously specific things like trauma, eating disorders, OCD, there's a more specific approach, but that would be how I would say the overall arching goal of it.
13:25.542 --> 13:30.565
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you think about that, I can only sort through and help you.
13:31.185 --> 13:34.666
[SPEAKER_00]: With what you give me, I can't just magically change you.
13:34.866 --> 13:41.008
[SPEAKER_00]: I can point out what I see, but therapy is one hour a week, sometimes less.
13:41.308 --> 13:46.830
[SPEAKER_00]: Even at most, right your ex, like two hours a week, this 24 hours in a day, right?
13:46.890 --> 13:51.071
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's most of your life is spent outside of therapy.
13:51.211 --> 13:57.733
[SPEAKER_02]: Curious demand, if you see this, because I think you ate, I see this a lot is we'll have this conversation on this podcast, for instance.
14:00.354 --> 14:06.398
[SPEAKER_02]: and they'll have a very different takeaway than what the point was sometimes on the podcast.
14:06.418 --> 14:11.821
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, there's not always one, you know, unanimous thought that everyone needs to have.
14:11.841 --> 14:15.964
[SPEAKER_02]: But sometimes we're like, oh, wow, that is not what we meant to relay.
14:16.004 --> 14:21.267
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is actually not the point of this and this might not be helpful to you.
14:21.768 --> 14:26.831
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm kind of like feeling like maybe that there's a similarity with the Instagram quotes or
14:28.712 --> 14:39.295
[SPEAKER_02]: widespread that like, you know, if, you know, in good, like not even necessarily malicious practice, but like someone puts up and people just interpret in all sorts of ways.
14:39.815 --> 14:48.258
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that like a fair assessment or like what else do you think is like kind of the cause that makes this more dangerous to have the therapy speak on the internet?
14:48.458 --> 14:51.541
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I absolutely think that is part of what's going on.
14:51.601 --> 15:02.391
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a big connection basically between therapy speed, the conversations we're having on the internet, our inability to see things from a nuanced perspective.
15:03.012 --> 15:06.275
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's so much harm being done by personalized.
15:06.575 --> 15:23.205
[SPEAKER_00]: algorithms essentially because again if we go back to kind of like my point about therapy, like the goal, what I'm looking at this, you know, like not of what someone's bringing me, my goal is to also help teach them to look at things from a different perspective.
15:23.565 --> 15:43.813
[SPEAKER_00]: Like therapists have a term called psychological flexibility, which is one of the best markers of good mental health, is that you can see things from different perspectives, you can observe your thoughts or your emotions and not get overly attached to them, you can see your friend do something that maybe offends you, but you can think about
15:44.473 --> 16:08.805
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't maybe personal and you can kind of depersonalize it or think that maybe they have a reason why they did it that I am not privy to for example, but the internet really collapses all of that and takes like our very nuanced messy three dimensional lives and flattens them feeds them into an algorithm and makes it seem like and I think we've like lost the screen.
16:09.325 --> 16:13.747
[SPEAKER_00]: in some ways too to be uncomfortable in some ways.
16:14.227 --> 16:19.509
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like not advocating people should like, you know, I'm not talking about like hustle culture and like go work harder.
16:19.609 --> 16:26.072
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean like being a person in the world, like you are going to run into people who do not agree with you 100%.
16:26.412 --> 16:30.474
[SPEAKER_00]: You exist in a body that is going to be like hungry and full.
16:30.634 --> 16:33.695
[SPEAKER_00]: And tired and like have uncomfortable emotions.
16:33.755 --> 16:37.136
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think when we're not present and we're not in the world,
16:38.697 --> 16:42.439
[SPEAKER_00]: that that is like an important process in our life.
16:42.799 --> 16:55.926
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's connected because I think then we people like just really with the algorithms want very black and white simplistic answers that make them feel good, our brains love to be right.
16:56.266 --> 17:02.650
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it is a skill to learn how to see things from other people's perspectives.
17:02.750 --> 17:04.491
[SPEAKER_00]: And therapy speak just gives people
17:05.031 --> 17:10.955
[SPEAKER_00]: this very easy term that stops having to do that, stops you from having to do that.
17:11.195 --> 17:24.703
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your honest opinion about, I would call them influencers, but they really thought leaders who blur that line between trying to help people and then acting as a therapist.
17:24.763 --> 17:28.485
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of Jillian Turekki, Jay Shetty, Mel Robbins.
17:28.606 --> 17:30.167
[SPEAKER_01]: They, I find a lot of people
17:34.609 --> 17:44.578
[SPEAKER_01]: But then there's also what you're saying they're collapsing some of these really nuance concepts that are simplistic and then people want to We'll take away what they want to hear.
17:45.059 --> 17:49.503
[SPEAKER_01]: So what is your opinion about whether they're more damaging or more helpful for us?
17:49.723 --> 17:50.223
[SPEAKER_00]: totally.
17:50.803 --> 17:53.164
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard because of exactly what you said.
17:53.244 --> 17:57.825
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I never want to tell someone something you learned was bad, right?
17:57.885 --> 18:01.686
[SPEAKER_00]: Or like ignore that this may not have met, like, helped someone.
18:01.826 --> 18:08.427
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is when it's so complicated about this is like, I am sure as a therapist, like, I'm not even, I'm sure.
18:08.467 --> 18:17.149
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, as a therapist, I say certain things to certain clients that I would never say, right, to other clients because it is tailored and nuanced.
18:17.489 --> 18:17.709
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
18:18.010 --> 18:25.637
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is what I say things on the internet that like wouldn't even really, you know, like make sense, especially in session.
18:25.977 --> 18:26.958
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's hard.
18:27.058 --> 18:31.182
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there are levels in my opinion of different thought leaders.
18:31.282 --> 18:36.928
[SPEAKER_00]: I think some of them go out of their way to be more thoughtful than others.
18:37.048 --> 18:39.270
[SPEAKER_00]: I think some of them are much more black and white.
18:39.350 --> 18:50.272
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, then others, and I feel for the people that get value out of it because nuance is challenging and hard, and you do have to kind of meet people where they are.
18:50.612 --> 18:56.913
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do really struggle when a lot of them are not really honest about their limitations.
18:56.953 --> 19:08.355
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not, they lean very heavily into just like I did my research, and it's like very clear to me, I'm like, just because you can read research papers, doesn't really mean
19:09.315 --> 19:28.400
[SPEAKER_00]: because as someone who's taken multiple classes on interpreting research, it is so like research, a lot of research is bad, a lot of research you're reading, you're not even interpreting the way it should be read and then that's just baseline not even what the algorithm does to it.
19:28.940 --> 19:29.961
[SPEAKER_00]: So I go back and forth.
19:30.021 --> 19:34.242
[SPEAKER_00]: I also am very clear that it is easy for me to say that like as someone who
19:39.083 --> 19:40.304
[SPEAKER_00]: to have to walk.
19:40.624 --> 20:02.337
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean we feel that too and I think like a big piece of it is unfortunately nuanced content isn't what goes viral and it is like this stuff that's more polarizing and I mean we have a lot of thoughts on it of just how it's made the dating culture just so negative because that's what you see online right you never see like the good stories of the dating apps like you
20:02.717 --> 20:04.299
[SPEAKER_02]: unless it's like the app promoting it.
20:04.339 --> 20:08.623
[SPEAKER_02]: But like you see like the horror stories and like all of the extremeness.
20:09.143 --> 20:16.890
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's very difficult because if you start to seeing that message over and over again, that's what you start to internalize.
20:17.231 --> 20:24.818
[SPEAKER_02]: That being said though at the same time, I know like a lot of friends that have been in a moment where they really needed to see a specific quote.
20:25.198 --> 20:29.581
[SPEAKER_02]: and they interpreted it the way they needed it and it was very helpful for them.
20:29.902 --> 20:31.443
[SPEAKER_02]: So I don't think it's all bad.
20:31.483 --> 20:41.310
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, I guess nuanced nuance needed for this, but I do see how it can be not good if you're really just like clicking on to negativity a lot.
20:41.430 --> 21:05.861
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's where I try to kind of come to like what are the tools that I can teach people to sort through things right on the internet because the internet really changed once like algorithms became personalized once we stopped having control over our feeds essentially so you know I think especially with AI that's not changing it is going to become even more.
21:06.121 --> 21:07.162
[SPEAKER_00]: personalized.
21:07.342 --> 21:14.288
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where, you know, kind of my whole thing is kind of like, how can we get in touch with our values?
21:14.629 --> 21:20.634
[SPEAKER_00]: How can we practice discernment so that we are better able to sort through some of this?
21:21.375 --> 21:24.297
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but again, that skill is not, it's not a sexy skill.
21:27.340 --> 21:30.844
[SPEAKER_01]: help us with some rudimentary discernment.
21:30.904 --> 21:35.929
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about just overall tolerance for other human beings.
21:36.169 --> 21:39.712
[SPEAKER_01]: You have this idea of annoyance as a price you pay for a community.
21:39.772 --> 21:43.676
[SPEAKER_01]: We have to be more tolerant of the different types of people who exist.
21:44.337 --> 21:50.722
[SPEAKER_01]: But with therapy culture, we've learned to set our boundaries, protect our peace, know your worth.
21:50.982 --> 21:57.987
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to get rid of the toxic people and you know, really have a curated list of people around you.
21:58.388 --> 22:03.231
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you've let it go, and then you know, I can only tolerate myself, barely.
22:04.092 --> 22:06.335
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe my new chat GPT.
22:06.476 --> 22:09.820
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, who just wants to tell you what you want to hear.
22:10.141 --> 22:18.653
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we practice that discernment of having tolerance for other people, but also having the right healthy boundaries?
22:18.933 --> 22:19.553
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
22:19.733 --> 22:40.078
[SPEAKER_00]: What I would start with is like take some time and reflect on where you actually are on a scale of Let's say people pleasing to not like how accepting are you versus not because someone who is like a people pleaser who Over extends themselves who is exhausted all the time.
22:40.398 --> 22:43.319
[SPEAKER_00]: It might be very radical and important for them to
22:44.099 --> 22:48.642
[SPEAKER_00]: say, like, literally practice saying no, for example, and learn that skill.
22:48.662 --> 22:49.042
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
22:49.743 --> 22:59.909
[SPEAKER_00]: You're someone on the opposite end, though, who does tend to, like, maybe have more anxiety, does tend to have a smaller circle, does tend to maybe say, like, I'm an introvert.
23:00.029 --> 23:03.231
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like being around big, like big crowds.
23:03.251 --> 23:09.135
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you have a lot of reasons why your life is, you know, has a smaller group around you.
23:09.235 --> 23:10.716
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even saying that's wrong.
23:14.318 --> 23:33.189
[SPEAKER_00]: What your baseline is is the most important thing because then you can kind of figure out where you should be leaning towards and where you should be You know, the goal is to be as much in the middle as we can so like moving towards that center depending on where you are.
23:33.389 --> 23:36.231
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's hold that thought because we have a quick message from our sponsors
23:36.551 --> 23:53.832
[SPEAKER_02]: So how do you distinguish like this person is genuinely unhealthy for me versus like they may disappoint me they may not show up every time or in the way that I want them to because I think this was a lesson I needed to learn even like you know with my husband it's like
23:54.212 --> 23:59.219
[SPEAKER_02]: They're still our times that I'm just appointed and that doesn't mean that like he's on healthy for me.
23:59.259 --> 24:08.631
[SPEAKER_02]: It means that we are two humans that are imperfects that are like living a life together and sometimes what I'm thinking he doesn't know because he's not a mind reader.
24:09.292 --> 24:14.115
[SPEAKER_02]: that being said, I also, you know, have been in situations that genuinely were unhealthy.
24:14.735 --> 24:18.218
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you like decipher between the two?
24:18.278 --> 24:27.143
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that's a line that people kind of somewhat struggle on, especially if they've had experiences in the past, they don't want to repeat them.
24:27.283 --> 24:27.743
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
24:27.763 --> 24:38.550
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's an important, like, complication that you brought up to is depending on your past, you're also going to be more alert for different patterns and things like that.
24:38.850 --> 24:45.433
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think in that way, I think it's hard for me to just define what unhealthy is.
24:45.933 --> 24:59.898
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think if I get a little more specific, I think one of the things I would say is, unless it is like a very overt situation of disrespect, abuse, name calling, you know, physical issues.
25:00.239 --> 25:03.320
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say you really know if someone is unhealthy from like one.
25:04.000 --> 25:04.721
[SPEAKER_00]: interaction.
25:05.221 --> 25:06.983
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't think that's really possible.
25:07.023 --> 25:12.608
[SPEAKER_00]: Like when I look at the category of someone being unhealthy, it almost everything is like a pattern.
25:12.688 --> 25:20.516
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would be more curious about what the pattern is, how do you feel before you spend time with them during afterwards?
25:20.856 --> 25:25.641
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a lot to be said for also thinking about like, what do you want your life to look like?
25:25.861 --> 25:27.723
[SPEAKER_00]: What is important to you?
25:28.183 --> 25:29.985
[SPEAKER_00]: What are your values?
25:30.346 --> 25:35.771
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you are with this person is that leading you towards our way, the life that you want to live.
25:36.112 --> 25:46.803
[SPEAKER_00]: That is kind of the best framework I can give also personally because it can help you cut through the noise of like, should I do this thing that I said I would do or should I cancel?
25:47.243 --> 26:09.630
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm, like instead of asking yourself how you energetically feel because I don't know about you, but I wouldn't do a lot if I just have like checking in with like how my energy was But instead if you can come from the place of again, you think about what your values are and you say, is this action leading me towards or farther away?
26:10.150 --> 26:10.970
[SPEAKER_00]: from what I want.
26:11.070 --> 26:23.376
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes that does look like canceling because you truly are overstretched, you are sick, you overcommitted yourself whatever, but then that's allowing you to actually restore yourself.
26:23.736 --> 26:28.378
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is why it's still leading you, like towards the life that you want to live.
26:28.578 --> 26:28.698
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm.
26:29.038 --> 26:29.318
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
26:29.678 --> 26:30.218
[SPEAKER_00]: I like that.
26:30.699 --> 26:34.840
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you getting closer to your north star or are you actually getting
26:39.122 --> 26:55.889
[SPEAKER_01]: What about we're a costly seeking validation and we feel like in therapy that's when we are validated and seen and we want the same from our partners, but there is a line to be drawn when we should be challenged in our way of thinking.
26:56.870 --> 27:00.191
[SPEAKER_01]: How does one seek the balance of the two?
27:00.551 --> 27:05.774
[SPEAKER_01]: If they're just, you know, if they're so entrenched in this therapy culture, I think it's really
27:08.815 --> 27:09.675
[SPEAKER_00]: I would agree with that.
27:09.875 --> 27:15.818
[SPEAKER_00]: I think where I would start is validation doesn't mean a agreement.
27:15.838 --> 27:20.620
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can validate that someone has having a hard time.
27:20.900 --> 27:22.541
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes sense why they did that.
27:22.881 --> 27:32.204
[SPEAKER_00]: What they did that, you know, it's understandable and still be like you can't treat me that way or I won't be around if you continue to treat me in
27:33.885 --> 27:47.786
[SPEAKER_00]: or right, I understand that you didn't invite me here or there, it makes sense and I want to share my perspective because I also felt this way when you did this, for example.
27:48.267 --> 27:48.547
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think
27:48.727 --> 27:57.212
[SPEAKER_00]: people don't realize that, and they assume that therapy is just endless validation, and you should be validated by your therapist.
27:57.572 --> 28:07.118
[SPEAKER_00]: But a lot of times therapists validate in the way I'm talking about, not as a co-signer of your decisions, because we're not telling someone what to do.
28:07.358 --> 28:21.361
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually think that is like obviously in therapy but then even when you're dating someone being able to have differing opinions from them and be able to have that space where you both can be heard.
28:21.381 --> 28:28.642
[SPEAKER_02]: I think like going back to what you were saying earlier of like when do you maybe like say like this actually is it healthy for me versus it?
28:29.102 --> 28:33.923
[SPEAKER_02]: It is that I just need to be like you know more, not expect them to be perfect basically.
28:34.383 --> 28:43.048
[SPEAKER_02]: I think like for me like an example is like I value someone that I can have an honest conversation with that I don't feel like I'm holding back.
28:43.568 --> 28:57.736
[SPEAKER_02]: If I have someone in my life that it feels like I'm always walking on eggshells with and it feels like I can never actually say the thing because they're going to get really upset and not listen to me that's like a values clash of like actually this
29:02.619 --> 29:20.345
[SPEAKER_02]: like there's someone that I can't be super close to and that's what I've been kind of trying to like rectify of like what's that line of like you know cutting someone some slack when they're having like a bad stretch of their life versus like this actually is be protected by peace to cut this person out.
29:20.485 --> 29:29.388
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and I think you can kind of think about it too as like I think we get really trapped in like the morality of things of like this is a good person.
29:29.408 --> 29:30.448
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a bad person.
29:30.468 --> 29:31.388
[SPEAKER_00]: This is right.
29:31.428 --> 29:32.108
[SPEAKER_00]: This is wrong.
29:32.148 --> 29:34.529
[SPEAKER_00]: That collapse is into the therapy speak.
29:34.589 --> 29:34.729
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
29:34.769 --> 29:35.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you're a narcissist.
29:35.950 --> 29:36.790
[SPEAKER_00]: That means you're bad.
29:36.810 --> 29:37.350
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not.
29:37.470 --> 29:38.350
[SPEAKER_00]: It means you're good.
29:38.690 --> 29:46.753
[SPEAKER_00]: Where instead, I think it's a lot healthier in, you know, in communication to be like this isn't like this either works or it doesn't work.
29:47.453 --> 30:04.841
[SPEAKER_00]: like which is what you were saying really like this is a workable situation for me based on what I need and what I value or it doesn't and then it's it's not that someone was bad or you know a mean person or even like unhealthy it just may not have worked between two people.
30:05.041 --> 30:20.659
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess maybe the question is, how do you know when you're giving it enough time to figure out like, does it work between the two people versus like, I'm just gonna put up a boundary and I'm gonna like leave at the, you know, any time like to avoid that discomfort.
30:20.839 --> 30:23.800
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to think of a way to not just be like, well, it depends.
30:23.820 --> 30:25.840
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it does.
30:26.420 --> 30:26.940
[SPEAKER_00]: It does.
30:27.120 --> 30:30.121
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think it depends on the other.
30:30.401 --> 30:35.642
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if we're talking about a romantic relationship, I think it depends on the other things that the person brings to the table.
30:35.822 --> 30:38.703
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it depends on our other.
30:39.103 --> 30:43.004
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have other like values that are in alignment?
30:43.344 --> 31:10.332
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, do you also I think a big thing that isn't quite, you know, related, but sort of is I think a very big thing to look for in a relationship is whether someone is able to work on the relationship with you because that gives you a lot of like understanding and space to then be able to work through things where if someone is more rigid and they really struggle to have like to take feedback to give feedback.
31:10.692 --> 31:21.823
[SPEAKER_00]: to be collaborative in that way, you kind of have to, you can't have as much space to be like we can work through this and find a way forward together.
31:21.863 --> 31:26.507
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to almost accept them more in their current version.
31:27.067 --> 31:49.362
[SPEAKER_02]: It must feel like it's easier to make that distinction in romantic partnerships because you're like looking for one, if you're in August, but I find it hard like in friendship for instance of like when do I say like this person is just not good for me instead of me versus like I'm just going to put them like in a little box of like maybe they're a group hang only or something like that.
31:49.602 --> 32:08.610
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think that and I'm glad you brought this up because I agree and I think it is hard with friendships because they're so much more like ambiguous there isn't a clear way to like become close with someone there isn't like the language doesn't change when you go from like having an acquaintance to becoming an official friend.
32:08.950 --> 32:13.032
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think you go to therapy with them with a problem you should.
32:13.372 --> 32:15.053
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people do, it's rare though.
32:15.233 --> 32:22.896
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I think that, and I do think this happens a lot on social media where people have really high expectations for friendships, yes.
32:23.257 --> 32:26.598
[SPEAKER_00]: And they expect someone to sort of be everything.
32:26.918 --> 32:28.619
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we do this in other places too.
32:28.679 --> 32:30.420
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we expect our job to be.
32:30.620 --> 32:31.040
[SPEAKER_00]: everything.
32:31.080 --> 32:34.201
[SPEAKER_00]: We expect our romantic relationships to be everything.
32:34.281 --> 32:46.186
[SPEAKER_00]: Like in the past few decades, we've really changed through how we interact, how we have become more isolated, how we work from home, and we interact with less people.
32:46.846 --> 32:52.348
[SPEAKER_00]: We put a lot more pressure on the people and the things that are in our life as a result.
32:52.448 --> 32:56.810
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I think looking at your pattern of knowing what works for you
32:57.830 --> 33:08.619
[SPEAKER_00]: I think looking at can this person be someone who is like a group hang, who isn't someone I necessarily rely on, and then does that person accept being in that role, right?
33:08.639 --> 33:23.451
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you can't have a close relationship with that person for whatever reason and you kind of have changed your expectations, and then they aren't willing to be in that, then that typically becomes something that isn't workable.
33:24.111 --> 33:51.992
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, in that example, the Julie brought up to I think about our culture's obsession with protecting our peace and this frictionless living so that we tend to avoid a lot of conflict because we're like this is what's good for us and I think in friendships it's really hard to work through some of these conflicts because you can automatically just put them in a let's just hang out box it hang out in a group box.
33:52.292 --> 33:57.977
[SPEAKER_01]: and demote them in a way without confronting some of these conflicts.
33:58.197 --> 34:01.320
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the threshold for something like that?
34:01.420 --> 34:06.745
[SPEAKER_01]: Should we actually confront friendship conflicts as a way to grow?
34:06.945 --> 34:12.090
[SPEAKER_01]: Or should we just do this maneuvering move of putting them in different categories?
34:12.350 --> 34:18.252
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a difference between conflict that is like someone is not considering you.
34:18.432 --> 34:20.532
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone is not thinking about their behavior.
34:20.893 --> 34:24.434
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone said something that wasn't very nice to you.
34:24.614 --> 34:26.654
[SPEAKER_00]: Someone cancels all the time.
34:26.714 --> 34:35.297
[SPEAKER_00]: I think things like that are a little different from like fundamental differences of like this person is not capable of a deep, emotional conversation.
34:35.317 --> 34:38.038
[SPEAKER_00]: So I am, but I really enjoy,
34:38.878 --> 34:43.565
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, we both love running and we're going to keep running together or something like that.
34:43.906 --> 34:50.675
[SPEAKER_00]: I think those are different and I think tier point of how do we when do we kind of have these conversations.
34:51.016 --> 34:53.419
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's not about someone's
34:53.780 --> 34:55.642
[SPEAKER_00]: personality that can't be changed.
34:55.982 --> 34:58.544
[SPEAKER_00]: I probably wouldn't go for that.
34:59.145 --> 35:10.795
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's also, I think if you've tried to bring up the conversation a few times, and it hasn't gone well, I think you can kind of start to decide how much you will push to keep having that conversation.
35:10.855 --> 35:18.441
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it really depends on how receptive they are, the more receptive they are to that, the more likely you'll be able to sort through it.
35:18.582 --> 35:20.763
[SPEAKER_00]: And like conflict when it's handled,
35:21.484 --> 35:22.725
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say appropriately.
35:22.845 --> 35:35.232
[SPEAKER_00]: But when we are open to it, you know, it does have an incredible like opportunity for the friendship to really grow and for us to learn the skill of healthy healthy conflict.
35:35.272 --> 35:39.975
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of us grew up with no concept of like healthy disagreement.
35:40.315 --> 35:47.500
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, like if you think about your parents, a lot of people's parents either had very unhealthy disagreement or maybe
35:48.060 --> 35:52.621
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't, and they like, hit it, and they pretended like they never had a conflict.
35:52.721 --> 35:55.302
[SPEAKER_00]: So we never learned what it looks like.
35:55.482 --> 36:02.744
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, there's a, there's a term in therapy called essentially repair, which obviously is gone beyond the therapy room now.
36:02.804 --> 36:05.605
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, rupture and repair is when something happens.
36:05.645 --> 36:08.325
[SPEAKER_00]: You can kind of grow back stronger from it.
36:08.525 --> 36:10.326
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is something that's great.
36:10.506 --> 36:14.527
[SPEAKER_00]: But the person also has, you need a participant who's also willing.
36:14.947 --> 36:24.494
[SPEAKER_00]: to grow in that situation too, and if they're not, that's when I would say after a few attempts, I would probably change how I interacted with that person.
36:25.916 --> 36:31.280
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is like a random question, but I feel like with a partner, especially if you live together, right?
36:31.320 --> 36:34.802
[SPEAKER_02]: It's easy to do the conversation when there's conflict face to face.
36:35.163 --> 36:37.645
[SPEAKER_02]: In my opinion, that's the best situation, right?
36:37.665 --> 36:39.546
[SPEAKER_02]: You're getting all the verbal and
36:44.670 --> 36:59.582
[SPEAKER_02]: like if there's an issue because it's just not as custom that maybe you are message it like that you're calling all the time and yeah like maybe your next hang is in a group or it's not schedule yet and there's something that's kind of top of mind.
37:00.022 --> 37:08.089
[SPEAKER_02]: What's your take of dealing with conflict through text or do you think it really is something that deserves a phone call or a meet-up?
37:08.289 --> 37:19.651
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if it's a big thing, I think trying to do that when possible is always great, but I also think, yeah, we have to work within the constraints of of what's going on.
37:19.671 --> 37:33.154
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think in those cases, trying as hard as you can to be very clear in your communication and sort of be overly, like you could even share what your body language is,
37:33.654 --> 37:35.275
[SPEAKER_00]: sort of while you're talking.
37:35.315 --> 37:36.857
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you could send a voice note.
37:36.917 --> 37:42.381
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that can be really helpful to decipher tone and not have to have a phone conversation.
37:43.181 --> 37:51.868
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think just like giving space for knowing that you don't have the full context and you may misread what they're feeling, how they're thinking.
37:51.888 --> 37:55.491
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you have to kind of put the context clues in about
37:56.251 --> 38:22.166
[SPEAKER_00]: how hopefully you've had some sort of maybe not disagreement, but a moment where you've worked through them where you can see what they're like in conflict to sort of read the cues and stuff like that, but it's definitely more challenging and I think it's why a lot of times they're like little ruptures and repairs through friendship that you kind of have to create this foundation with someone and recognize that
38:25.328 --> 38:28.590
[SPEAKER_00]: you have to trust that if that person has a problem, they're going to bring it to you.
38:28.910 --> 38:35.053
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to be honest because you can't, you're not going to have as much face time to constantly sort of be assessing that.
38:35.213 --> 38:35.594
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:35.934 --> 38:47.140
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like like Julie and I have had a, you know, some rupturing repairs as what you do when you have worked together for 10 years, but also we have a friendship at
38:47.600 --> 38:49.341
[SPEAKER_01]: the foundation of it all.
38:49.461 --> 38:59.106
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think having this podcast has forced us to really work through some of that and I think it's unlocked this other layer of our friendship and communication.
38:59.306 --> 39:01.868
[SPEAKER_01]: But you just don't have that with regular friendships.
39:01.888 --> 39:04.889
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not like committed to a project with them.
39:04.989 --> 39:07.811
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it's like a romantic relationship.
39:07.851 --> 39:11.253
[SPEAKER_01]: You're committed to that building that life with someone.
39:11.793 --> 39:14.254
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's a different dynamic.
39:14.594 --> 39:31.717
[SPEAKER_01]: What about people's dynamic in their relationship to themselves, having to this therapy culture around work on yourself, really grow and have a growth mindset, and heal yourself and be a whole person before you get out there to date.
39:32.077 --> 39:37.738
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do you think people have worked on themselves enough to go out and date?
39:37.818 --> 39:40.619
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it can't be fully healed to do that.
39:40.839 --> 39:41.459
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
39:41.519 --> 39:47.401
[SPEAKER_00]: And I have a big problem with sort of that like trope because I just think it exactly what you said.
39:47.441 --> 39:48.401
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not possible.
39:48.541 --> 39:52.722
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think we also forget that healing can happen in relationships.
39:53.663 --> 39:57.104
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that mean you will find like the perfect person?
39:57.124 --> 39:58.184
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
39:58.364 --> 40:00.364
[SPEAKER_00]: But like there are opportunities.
40:00.444 --> 40:02.425
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, and I think it's what we've been talking about.
40:02.585 --> 40:17.860
[SPEAKER_00]: to learn who you are in a relationship, learn what works for you, learn what doesn't, learn how to communicate better or deal with the discomfort that comes with having a hard conversation with someone.
40:18.200 --> 40:25.567
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think it's good to be working on yourself and I think, again, if you are someone who has never been single, can
40:25.627 --> 40:31.692
[SPEAKER_00]: can't be by themselves, has really struggled in that area and you're all the way on one side.
40:31.892 --> 40:36.696
[SPEAKER_00]: Then yeah, I would probably say that you would benefit from taking a break.
40:36.836 --> 40:47.445
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, it's like if we put everything in the context of flexibility, let's try to do things a little bit differently than where we are before and see how we can adapt to that.
40:47.785 --> 40:49.126
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're on the other side, where
40:50.767 --> 41:05.859
[SPEAKER_00]: it's your quick to kind of, you know, end a relationship, get out of a relationship, you struggle to date, your work might be pushing yourself a little bit and going on dates and feeling uncomfortable and and recognizing that you'll learn through that process too.
41:06.159 --> 41:13.401
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I had an, like one of my ex's had, you know, but a lot of mental health issues that were going on at the time.
41:13.661 --> 41:20.723
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we got into a relationship and that it was suddenly like, I can't commit to this because of all the stuff going on.
41:21.343 --> 41:27.565
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was a side of me that, I mean, for me, I went to immediately like, oh, it's me, like, you know, all the stuff.
41:28.085 --> 41:33.447
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember like a friend of mine saying like, how can he be there for you if he's not even there for himself?
41:34.007 --> 41:57.711
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, that's a good point too, but then there's also like the side of it like a being like, and I think his take was like, I need to work through the stuff solo, where yes, that is definitely a factor, but then there's also the take of like, you know, at the end of the day, there was a side that was like, I'm just not committed to this relationship like I am going to work on this stuff and like could I have done it while being committed.
41:58.191 --> 42:02.412
[SPEAKER_02]: in a relationship or was it actually truly better for me to do my own self-worth?
42:02.592 --> 42:04.273
[SPEAKER_02]: What's kind of your take about that?
42:04.373 --> 42:18.597
[SPEAKER_02]: I know like, you're talking about some of your past work too with drinking and alcoholism like when you're experiencing something to like a level beyond just like, you know, maybe I'm not my ultimate like top-best self.
42:19.017 --> 42:20.918
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is there a time you should take a break?
42:21.118 --> 42:35.721
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it depends on the relationship, you know, I think the irony is when you look at sort of like sobriety culture and my training is that we set like the the added just sort of like weight a year while you're sober until you start dating.
42:36.062 --> 42:41.723
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's also complicated because it's like there are a lot of people that enter into, you know, they get sober and they're married.
42:41.763 --> 42:46.164
[SPEAKER_00]: What are they going to like get a divorce and, you know, or come back in a year like,
42:46.584 --> 42:55.891
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's where I think that if someone is going through a big thing, my typical advice as a therapist is to not make any drastic changes.
42:57.697 --> 43:10.580
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in the beginning of dating someone, I would count that as like that is bringing up excitement and emotions and it's like taking up a lot of head space when you're in an early relationship or in the process of dating.
43:10.920 --> 43:17.182
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think that it would make sense to try to like stabilize, focus on yourself first before you do that.
43:17.522 --> 43:20.623
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you are in a romantic relationship,
43:22.443 --> 43:23.463
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to end it.
43:23.503 --> 43:25.104
[SPEAKER_00]: You need time for yourself.
43:25.264 --> 43:28.785
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people maybe it is a crisis to the point they would.
43:29.105 --> 43:40.628
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think it's complicated when people use it sort of as an excuse for, well, it's because of this that I can't be with you or something like that.
43:40.828 --> 43:46.729
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where you as the other person have to decide, like, is this workable for me or not?
43:46.949 --> 43:49.490
[SPEAKER_00]: Aside from whether I really like this person or not?
43:49.610 --> 44:10.056
[SPEAKER_02]: It's hard though, because sometimes you just don't know, especially like, you know, if someone is carrying stuff and I think the other part that's hard is like, we all know that human connection is beneficial and makes you feel better than if you're isolating, but then sometimes you really do need that work on yourself and that's where I think it gets like complex and probably to do once needed.
44:10.416 --> 44:28.945
[SPEAKER_02]: part of it but like I guess like from I mean obviously you can't like push someone to do something they don't want to do so it's like if someone feels that's best for them kind of need to honor it but like what happens like if someone kind of like maybe doesn't know what's best for them and they're just doing what they think is like safest in a way.
44:29.185 --> 44:29.565
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
44:29.905 --> 44:35.247
[SPEAKER_00]: I think when someone's going through a mental health crisis, I wore something serious.
44:35.387 --> 44:40.269
[SPEAKER_00]: I worry a lot less about, again, pushing themselves or the growth edge.
44:40.389 --> 44:43.651
[SPEAKER_00]: I really believe you have to focus on stable.
44:43.931 --> 44:44.391
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:44.411 --> 44:50.833
[SPEAKER_00]: The stabilization, the basic stuff, first, before we do anything else.
44:50.853 --> 44:54.675
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is sort of how I air on the side of caution there.
44:55.055 --> 45:00.396
[SPEAKER_02]: So there is a, there is a type of a place where like it really should be not prioritized.
45:00.416 --> 45:07.558
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, is there other situations that you feel like sometimes people use situationally to like self-protect?
45:07.598 --> 45:16.861
[SPEAKER_02]: And like again, what's that line of like something that you just need to like push your growth edge versus like actually don't do that because that's not the priority.
45:17.081 --> 45:23.622
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on if that person is like, I really want to be in a romantic relationship.
45:23.923 --> 45:25.643
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to have children.
45:25.663 --> 45:28.003
[SPEAKER_00]: I, these are really important things to me.
45:28.203 --> 45:34.505
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if that's what you want, again, we're kind of going to like, what is leading you towards that life.
45:34.865 --> 45:43.887
[SPEAKER_00]: It sucks, but it's like the only way to get that, if that's what you want, is to try to start dating and meeting new people and things like that.
45:44.187 --> 45:51.430
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, I think in terms of like we know we need people, I think we don't need a romantic committed relationship.
45:51.530 --> 45:57.852
[SPEAKER_00]: You can get that emotional, social need met in a large variety of different relationships.
45:58.252 --> 45:59.613
[SPEAKER_00]: So it really comes down to...
46:00.313 --> 46:02.494
[SPEAKER_00]: what you want, what's important to you.
46:02.794 --> 46:10.717
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think yeah, I think when you're constantly upset, for example, that you are lonely or you don't have people like that is sort of the pattern.
46:10.877 --> 46:23.422
[SPEAKER_00]: I see as when people are very frustrated and clearly not okay with their current dating situation, friendship situation, broader life situation, and then they're just like,
46:26.583 --> 46:27.164
[SPEAKER_00]: point.
46:27.504 --> 46:31.269
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's where it's like, if you're fine with it, then great.
46:31.430 --> 46:39.821
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm never going to tell you you need to go do something, but if you're not, then we have to start looking at what can we do to start meeting that need.
46:39.981 --> 46:41.143
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like that.
46:41.383 --> 46:42.805
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a good barometer.
46:43.145 --> 46:48.587
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to dive into this even more, but before we do, let's take a quick break to hear from our partners.
46:49.067 --> 46:59.811
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to take us to a hard-left turn on AI because I really do want to get your opinion on this before we run out of time with the rise of AI therapist.
47:00.271 --> 47:01.472
[SPEAKER_01]: One, your thoughts on that.
47:02.052 --> 47:07.020
[SPEAKER_01]: And two is what are some of the cultural consequences for that?
47:07.160 --> 47:12.729
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I find myself relying more and more on chatGBT for my mental health.
47:13.190 --> 47:15.974
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if I should be scared or this is a good thing.
47:16.627 --> 47:18.228
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's such a good question.
47:18.368 --> 47:25.210
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I mean, I think my overall broad thought is AI therapy is not therapy.
47:26.010 --> 47:28.391
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can call it coaching.
47:28.591 --> 47:31.692
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can call it a mental health support.
47:31.772 --> 47:33.353
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you can call it check-ins.
47:34.333 --> 47:54.646
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole nature of therapy is that it is a relationship with someone, and that person has to be like impartial enough that they can act as a mirror, reflect things for you, slowly kind of help you see things from different perspectives, which is just completely antithetical to what AI is.
47:54.706 --> 47:56.888
[SPEAKER_00]: It will just never be able to do that.
47:57.268 --> 48:15.455
[SPEAKER_00]: it may be able to provide for sure like psycho education skills questions to ask yourself what books blogs courses podcasts and you have that already can provide you with it is just a more tailored in some ways good in some ways bad version of that.
48:15.955 --> 48:32.249
[SPEAKER_00]: And then to answer your other question about broader cultural consequences, I mean, I'm not like AI, you know, I think AI is out of the bag and we all have to adapt and deal with the consequences of it and there, there can be things that are helpful with it.
48:32.369 --> 48:39.755
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what I get most concerned about with AI is that it is an incredible way to reassurance seek.
48:39.875 --> 48:40.836
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
48:41.642 --> 48:59.140
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can just kind of have this person constantly tell you things will be okay, you're good, you're fine, reassure, you know, and then you can research a million things also so I think it really contributes to spiraling and that's only kind of getting worse.
48:59.400 --> 49:04.043
[SPEAKER_00]: and then you kind of intertwine that with personalized algorithms.
49:04.083 --> 49:06.665
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, it is like where it's eroding the skill.
49:06.725 --> 49:19.714
[SPEAKER_00]: It's, I think, making it a faster descent into our intolerance of friction, our struggle with like nuance and seeing things from a different perspective.
49:20.054 --> 49:24.477
[SPEAKER_00]: And some of the things that make us human, you know, I really believe as a therapist that
49:24.897 --> 49:33.119
[SPEAKER_00]: things that challenge us, things that are uncomfortable, often lead to like meaning and having a more meaningful life.
49:33.179 --> 49:45.761
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is a dumb example, but they've done research and people who build their own like IKEA furniture versus having someone make it, they value it more.
49:45.781 --> 49:51.523
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean you should make your life as hard as possible and like you know friction max, which people of
49:54.123 --> 49:58.448
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am a really big proponent of like, what is important to you to be?
49:58.848 --> 50:01.791
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what is the human skill that you don't want to lose?
50:01.911 --> 50:04.594
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that kind of goes to your answer.
50:04.934 --> 50:12.262
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I think a lot about how, if I can't tolerate waiting in line, I am not going to be able to wait in line to vote.
50:12.542 --> 50:12.783
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
50:13.303 --> 50:16.644
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, so that is a skill that I can't lose.
50:16.844 --> 50:20.024
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that mean that I spend tons of my time in lines?
50:20.364 --> 50:26.846
[SPEAKER_00]: No, but when I find myself caught in a line, I try not to go into this as horrible.
50:26.866 --> 50:27.786
[SPEAKER_00]: This is terrible.
50:27.806 --> 50:29.706
[SPEAKER_00]: This shouldn't be this way.
50:29.726 --> 50:31.767
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, this is an opportunity.
50:31.847 --> 50:36.027
[SPEAKER_00]: Or like, I want to be able to go to a restaurant and have to wait 30 minutes and stay.
50:36.367 --> 50:38.088
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's what matters to me.
50:38.188 --> 50:39.228
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's what...
50:39.548 --> 50:45.871
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, if you're a writer and you don't want to lose that skill, like reading, building things by hand, cooking.
50:45.951 --> 50:47.332
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what it is for you.
50:47.352 --> 50:52.695
[SPEAKER_00]: Be clear about, don't outsource something completely that you don't want to lose.
50:52.915 --> 50:53.496
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that.
50:54.176 --> 50:57.978
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one thing I've noticed though, that chatchipy tea has been like,
50:58.238 --> 51:00.319
[SPEAKER_02]: and doing some of my remediation cycles.
51:00.559 --> 51:04.360
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's very algorithm or like they're getting this feedback.
51:04.420 --> 51:12.143
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think one thing it does a lot is points out like your feelings are real, but the interpretation doesn't mean that it's true.
51:12.543 --> 51:20.586
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's actually like a thing that we need to be reminded often, and maybe that actually kind of ties to the earlier talk about like,
51:21.006 --> 51:24.250
[SPEAKER_02]: Instagram and like the quotes that are up on therapy speak.
51:24.730 --> 51:34.080
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess like why is this so difficult for people to say like yes I feel this way, but it doesn't necessarily mean the world is falling apart because I feel this way and it's true
51:34.265 --> 51:41.746
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, I'm going to try to answer this without going into the neuroscience, because I could, I could break down the whole neuroscience of it.
51:42.006 --> 51:49.067
[SPEAKER_00]: Your brain's main job is trying to keep you alive and keep you great, like your body running and functioning.
51:49.408 --> 51:55.529
[SPEAKER_00]: So to be able to do that, it's constantly making predictions about what you might need and what you should do.
51:55.969 --> 52:03.870
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it doesn't have time to would be very inefficient for your body to actually react to everything and then choose what to do.
52:04.190 --> 52:07.673
[SPEAKER_00]: it, these things happen simultaneously, essentially.
52:08.013 --> 52:31.332
[SPEAKER_00]: So your brain is very sensitive to bad things happening to threats, to risks, and your emotions often get very tangled up in those thoughts, and your brain kind of takes what your past means, how you feel currently and tries to make a prediction about the future, essentially, to try to keep you alive.
52:31.652 --> 52:48.419
[SPEAKER_00]: So that is why we kind of spiral so easily and we struggle so much to differentiate our thoughts from our emotions because they're very intertwined and your experience of an emotion is not split into I'm feeling angry though.
52:48.679 --> 52:51.621
[SPEAKER_00]: This must mean that this person hates me, right?
52:51.641 --> 52:55.044
[SPEAKER_00]: Or this must mean that I hate this person, or I was wronged.
52:55.384 --> 52:59.688
[SPEAKER_00]: It happens immediately and you don't even recognize that your brain does it.
53:00.028 --> 53:04.531
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you don't recognize that, you just think this is reality.
53:04.852 --> 53:10.736
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you don't have a moment to even slow down and realize that your brain jumped to this conclusion.
53:10.936 --> 53:11.797
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I think that.
53:12.037 --> 53:14.758
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I feel like that sums up like what's wrong.
53:14.838 --> 53:21.800
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so much, is that everyone is on speed mode that we aren't slowing down to like, untangle.
53:21.900 --> 53:27.661
[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess maybe my biggest takeaway is like, we feel like the goal of therapy is to be healed.
53:27.881 --> 53:33.343
[SPEAKER_02]: And therapy, speak, kind of give us that short cut to being healed.
53:33.383 --> 53:35.363
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, I don't need this person.
53:35.383 --> 53:36.584
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna protect my peace.
53:36.624 --> 53:37.404
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm healed.
53:37.864 --> 53:54.152
[SPEAKER_02]: But actually, the point of therapy, like you said, is untangling everything and using what we know to make better decisions that work for us and that can't be like something just a universal blanket statement and all the stuff that we're reading about.
53:54.692 --> 54:11.907
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think really like my biggest takeaway is like with everything you said it like to be like the most emotionally resilient that we can It's like how do we take into account different perspectives, but then ultimately listen to our own values as well
54:12.307 --> 54:17.988
[SPEAKER_02]: to make sure that we're not like people pleasing and staying at things that are not aligned with who we are also.
54:18.389 --> 54:19.189
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all new once.
54:19.329 --> 54:30.932
[SPEAKER_02]: It's all a balance of, you know, protect yourself and put it yourself first, but also making room for others and not being like, I'm just going to put up a wall for everyone because like, I have no new ones.
54:31.692 --> 54:38.236
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you do that too, right, like the irony is then you start, like in protecting yourself, there's a cost to everything.
54:38.416 --> 54:44.359
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you also start bearing, like you also start having to deal with the negative consequences of being isolated.
54:44.739 --> 54:44.999
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
54:45.019 --> 54:46.920
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's always a cost.
54:47.981 --> 54:48.861
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
54:49.041 --> 54:53.924
[SPEAKER_01]: So many takeaways, some of the main ones would be, think we have to recognize when we're
54:57.566 --> 55:03.968
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a friend who was dating a guy who claimed he was like the most healed guy in the world, because he had done all sorts of therapy.
55:04.188 --> 55:13.612
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they were getting into conflicts, he would basically use all sorts of language to belittle her and to invalidate her.
55:14.172 --> 55:17.173
[SPEAKER_01]: So that he could appear superior.
55:17.573 --> 55:17.913
[SPEAKER_01]: to her.
55:18.093 --> 55:26.318
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think regardless of how much therapy you've had, it doesn't make you the more enlightened person in a relationship.
55:26.518 --> 55:36.704
[SPEAKER_01]: It may mean you have more tools in your toolbox to articulate what you're experiencing, but we can't use it as a way to weaponize against our partners.
55:37.104 --> 55:40.065
[SPEAKER_01]: And we see this time and time again in relationships.
55:40.366 --> 55:43.367
[SPEAKER_01]: There's always going to be one person who's done more therapy
55:46.609 --> 55:54.936
[SPEAKER_01]: So the person who's done more therapy can't speak down or or to diminish their partner and what they're going through.
55:55.036 --> 56:03.943
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the whole point of going through therapy is like you can be there to validate and support your partner even if you don't agree with the circumstances.
56:04.163 --> 56:04.844
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think
56:05.244 --> 56:16.752
[SPEAKER_01]: understanding when you're using therapy for good versus weaponizing it to make yourself feel more superior is such a skill that we must all have.
56:16.932 --> 56:21.695
[SPEAKER_01]: As we, you know, as our therapy culture grows and grows, we can't stop that.
56:21.715 --> 56:22.316
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
56:22.456 --> 56:27.920
[SPEAKER_02]: Sir, anything else you want to leave are audience that we may be in touch upon on this topic.
56:28.020 --> 56:30.061
[SPEAKER_00]: Guys ask me such a great question.
56:32.445 --> 56:40.187
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my one thing I will leave people with is we really under like we really think healing is so complicated.
56:40.247 --> 56:47.649
[SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes and so like we need the next book, we need the next course, we need the next thing.
56:47.709 --> 56:57.011
[SPEAKER_00]: This will heal me and so much of like basic what we've been talking about nuance, flexibility and emotional resilience is extremely basic.
57:02.332 --> 57:26.803
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like if you want to be better at not jumping to conclusions, sleep enough, eat enough, drink enough water, go outside, spend some time with people you care about, take time off the internet to have perspective to recognize that you are not the center of the universe, those are very basic free things that you can do.
57:26.943 --> 57:28.064
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not saying they're easy.
57:28.944 --> 57:39.491
[SPEAKER_00]: that can really help regulate your emotions and the more regulated your emotions are, the better you're going to be able to think clearly and make choices that are more in alignment with your values.
57:39.651 --> 57:45.996
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think therapy can help you with that self-awareness to untangle again, and that's the real work.
57:46.096 --> 57:47.897
[SPEAKER_02]: It's putting it into action, of course.
57:48.277 --> 57:51.698
[SPEAKER_02]: you can work with a therapist but it's not limited to that one hour a week.
57:51.878 --> 57:54.099
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like an ongoing thing for life.
57:54.279 --> 57:56.160
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not like a one and done either.
57:56.700 --> 58:04.283
[SPEAKER_02]: And I did like the distinction you made earlier too of like when is it that you're just always going to be healing?
58:04.383 --> 58:14.107
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no magic day that you start dating versus like actually there is something I really need to attend to and my priority has to be on me for my basic needs to be met.
58:14.207 --> 58:14.387
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
58:14.747 --> 58:15.187
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:15.467 --> 58:18.308
[SPEAKER_01]: Amanda, people want to find out more about you and your practice.
58:18.348 --> 58:18.948
[SPEAKER_01]: Where can they go?
58:19.188 --> 58:19.648
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
58:19.668 --> 58:22.549
[SPEAKER_00]: So you can follow me on Instagram at Therapy for Women.
58:22.709 --> 58:24.329
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also find me on Substack.
58:24.549 --> 58:26.810
[SPEAKER_00]: My Substack there is just my name.
58:26.890 --> 58:28.950
[SPEAKER_00]: Amanda, you might, sorry, I have like 45 things.
58:28.970 --> 58:36.832
[SPEAKER_00]: You can check out my podcast, which is nuance needed where me and my co-host dig into a lot of these very nuanced things.
58:37.172 --> 58:41.713
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you're interested in a therapist, my practice is called Therapy for Women
58:44.934 --> 58:50.156
[SPEAKER_00]: in 43 states across the country and a few offices in the Philadelphia area.
58:50.396 --> 58:50.796
[SPEAKER_02]: Awesome.
58:50.856 --> 58:53.057
[SPEAKER_02]: We will link in the shout outs as well.
58:53.157 --> 58:53.677
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
58:53.777 --> 58:55.578
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much for being on our show, Amanda.
58:55.598 --> 58:57.638
[SPEAKER_01]: This is nice to having an expert to help us validate what we're feeling with therapy culture.
58:57.658 --> 58:59.279
[SPEAKER_01]: So we feel seen at the very least wrapping up this episode.
58:59.299 --> 59:09.202
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stay,
59:40.484 --> 59:40.725
[UNKNOWN]: You