Ep 8: A Conversation about Data Stories with Priya Ramteke and Ruchi Mainali

Paul Swanson: Do they see data as a story or they see data as a label? comes to mind and that is shame. I think it's the shame that parents feel because there's this culture that you're not worthy if you're not a seventh. Are we really loving our children unconditionally? You're listening to Data Talks, a podcast from Data in Schools, in association with Atlanta International School and the Mona Lisa Effect, and sponsored by Veracross and IntelliSchool. I'm Paul Swanson, Director of Innovation and Institutional Research at Atlanta International School and part of the Data in Schools team. And I'm Matthew Savage, Educator, Leader, Consultant and Coach. In today's episode, we're joined by Ruchi Menali. Head of assessments at Heritage International Experiential School in Gurgaon, where she brings a deep commitment to using data to drive meaningful school improvement. We're also delighted to welcome Priya Ramtika, Director of Learning at Nitamukhe Shambani Junior School in Mumbai. With 26 years in education across India and the UK, she champions data practices rooted in mindfulness, student agency, and holistic learning. So welcome to our podcast. place where data talks, we listen. I'm so excited about this conversation and we're super lucky to have both of you here with us. What I want to explore first of all is context from a data point of view, right? You both work in very, very different schools, different sizes, different guiding statements, different models, different missions, et cetera. And I wonder to what extent those things, that context shapes the way that you approach data. ⁓ as a data lead and a learning lead yourself. Thank you. Really happy to be here, Matthew and Paul and Ruchi. So I think, you know, when I was thinking about this very deep question, we have to start with the ultimate end or the ultimate end goal or question in mind. And for me, it always begins with, we truly creating a nurturing flourishing environment for every single member of the community? Okay. That is the end goal. That is the purpose. And so for Beyond Numbers, are we really seeing the whole story of every child? we peeling back the layers to understand what's happening for our students and our teachers? And I think that is where we need to approach it as a teacher, as a leader, and as an educator. And most importantly, are we enabling every student in our community to be the authors of their own educational journey? And are we using that data to drive each child to be the author of that journey, okay, and find their own path and find their own success. Because at the end of the day, it's not just about data and what data is and what data isn't, but it's really essentially about what kind of adults do we want to see in the next century? Do we want resilient, peaceful students, adults in the world who can navigate complexity and build community? and contribute meaningfully to the world. And I think that is the bigger question that's driving the data forward in our schools, because that tells us what is the kind of data we want to collect. How do we gather it? And when we've gathered all that, how do we harness it, harness the power of that information to drive the learning forward? I wonder, Pri, before we come to Rishi, if I can just dig a little deeper on that, because I suspect that everyone who listens to this podcast, those sentiments will resonate with, right? And they will think, yeah, absolutely. That's how data needs to help us. But I'm curious here how much is context specific and in your own context, Priya, you are now a leader in one school, prior to which you were a leader for a long time in another school. And I'm really curious because many of the listeners to this podcast will be in schools in totally different context with totally different governance structures or parental expectations or guiding statements in particular. How much of it therefore is context specific? How much are your expectations of the data different in school A from school B? Do you think that that influences how you use data? You know, yes, context and culture is very critical and very crucial to how the schools use data because Ultimately, you're guided by the school's mission and values and the strategic goals. But I don't think there's a school in the world that says, like, that has any different mission to creating resilient, peaceful individuals for a better world. So I think that is the co-purpose of education. Any school, you go to anywhere in the world, any context, any culture. So that remains the same. I think what changes is, are we focusing more on the academic angle of the data? are we looking at the emotional angle of the data? That changes context to context. In the subcontinent, in the Indian subcontinent, and perhaps in the Asian region, there's a lot of focus on STEM subjects, for example. So there's more focus on STEM subjects and more use of data to ⁓ wear their journey towards those STEM professions or engineering professions or medical professions. So I think that changes. But beyond underneath all that, I think the crux and the essence of all school leaders and all educationists remains the same, I hope. Would you agree with that, Rishi? Do you think that the way in which we feel that data should be used, is that context specific? Do you think it varies from school to school? Or do think there's this universality that Priya references there? To begin with, I definitely agree with Priya. Context will define what part of the data you're looking at. first, but if we want to drive data conversation in a holistic manner, and ultimately, whether a school states it or not, the vision of any educational institution is to develop this whole webin. Therefore, one is initiating this journey of data conversations in their school using dashboards, as Paul says often, you're getting into data strategy. then there is no way you will miss looking at whole child, whether your school mandated it in the first place or not. So that whole ism is in there's an inevitability of that whole ism regardless of the focus. Yeah, just to share an example, like ⁓ if suppose there was a child want to do cat for testing, and you realize the child is high on verbal reasoning score. But we also see her confidence is dipping. As per any observation or another survey, you might come back. And she is also low on attendance in the school. That calls for, you know, mining further on what is happening in her life. If the potential is higher, but attitude is dipping down, then what is causing this attitude to dip down? And a school's context will not come in the way to figure out this about the child if you want the child to thrive. One of the things that both of you are describing is this idea of personalizing learning through the use of data and making sure that the school is enabling all of the children to be thriving and living into the mission statements of our schools here. What are some of the challenges that you all see in terms of making making use of some of those data. mean, sometimes we have all of this data, but then actually taking the kinds of actions that we might want to take or personalizing, individualizing the way that ⁓ we might ideally want to can encounter roadblocks. What sorts of obstacles or roadblocks have you encountered and how have you tried to navigate them? So I think continuing from my previous conversation, Often we've seen, like I initiated into this journey about 15 years back, when we used to do mathematics benchmarking assessments. And when we used to sit with that data, teachers used to feel it is their performance which will be judged. Because if their cohort hasn't performed well, then they are under question. So we used to have pre-conversations before looking at the data. What are they expecting out of this? And what are we expecting as a school? Which stage we are in in implementation of this program? Really normalizing this lens of looking at the data. And then initiating an inquiry into what is it telling you? Don't look at the students, just look at the grade level data. Look at the section level data and you look at it as your own data. And then share what you feel like. These things, the mindset really comes in the way. ⁓ And it ends the job of the person who is leading these conversations to normalize it for everybody else in the room. Priya, would you agree with that? Yeah, I would. I think we have to really build a culture where we are conscious and mindful of the impact data gathering and data sort of implementation initiatives are having on teachers per se, teachers' well-being, their workload. I think that is one angle to it. But I think the other two sides of the coin are also the parents and the students. I want to speak particularly from a student's perspective. So in order to gather academic data, and I'll come to the other data a bit later on, we are putting students through tests after tests and tests, and assessments after assessments and assessments, okay? And some of them are really simple and straightforward, but imagine a student who's spending seven hours in school, class after class, class after class, and you get them to do another test because you want to gather data. It's incredibly frustrating for a 15 year old to do that. It's not okay. It's not okay from their point of view. So that is one, I think one ⁓ challenge you asked us to talk about challenge. Okay, that is one challenge from the student perspective. And then we get them to do all these tests, but we don't tell them what are we doing with it. So I feel like we need more in terms of educating students and making students data champions. So they teach us about data and they teach each other about data. And in terms of parents, there's a lot of parental anxiety and pressure associated with academics in our context. And a lot of sort of unmet parent dreams that are then sort of enforced onto the children. And when you gather data, sometimes there's undue pressure or anxiety that parents take on themselves because they don't know enough. They don't know how to interpret that data and what the data story is telling them about their child. And also, I think sometimes we label data as in the here and now. But data should be associated with growth mindset. Okay, Priya does can't do her algebra yet. She can do it later. You know, so I think those are the challenges that I feel schools encounter in the context of teachers, students and parents. So the holism you were talking about both of you earlier is, I think you're right, shared by most of us in education. And yet there are these pools to silo, right? Parents, because they fear and they worry about their children's future. are drawn to the measurement of academics. Students then carry that weight so then they can find themselves drawn to academics. So how do we as leaders in schools steer the conversation back towards the whole when there are these pressures to pull us towards the part? How do we respond to that, do you think? So I think Ruchi touched a very key point, Ruchi, when you said moving away from the idea that teachers are to blame or judging teachers and teacher performance in relation to the data. So I think Ruchi, I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said that. So I think we have to start at destigmatizing and depersonalizing data and removing the I from the data. It's not, because this teacher's class, ⁓ that class had that Priya as a science teacher and therefore their science scores are poor. It's not about that. So I think that is what we really need to drive home towards and that gathering data and doing something with data needs to move away from a personal experience to a communal experience. So just like making resilient, peaceful citizens of the world is every single educator's responsibility. So tie that in. with collecting data as a whole. It's not about the science data or the maths data, but it's about humanizing data for the single child and seeing them as a whole by really unmasking and unlearing what is behind their science score, what is behind the maths score. Why is this child particularly sad or unhappy or why are they happy in this setting? What is making them happy and peaceful in this setting as opposed to that setting? So I think really As leaders, we really have to drive home the point that it's not really about you. It's not really about Priya, but it's really about the school as a community and bring that culture of data consciousness and data mindfulness in our beings. kind of a detoxification, a removal of the blame. I wonder if that can be applied also Rishi to students and to parents, because I wonder whether a lot of fear. resides in that sense this somehow because of me. So is it a question of shifting from kind of a deficit frame to an asset frame in terms of what we measure and how we do so? That's true. And in fact, in some cases when we have done testing and we've informed them upfront that this data is going to be used for internal purposes, it will not show up in any of the report card or transcripts and will not be also shared with you. because first we want to make sense of it and guide you on how we are using it, what it really means in a system, and then we will unfold it for you. Because there is an element of educating everybody like Priya said, even students needs to be part of it, parents needs to be part of it, but in a meaningful manner. It's not numbers reaching out to them and saying this is where your child is, rather what does it really mean? And what does it really mean in the context? If I am in a metropolitan city, the kind of precious children have, If a past survey result is shared with parents, they will get into depression. Why is my child falling so low on most of parameters? So we need to first understand the child's story behind it, then take parents into the loop. Have those, I won't say calculated conversations, but we still need to be mindful of how a parent's mind will perceive this information and how will they extend support. Because the idea is ultimately to support the student trial. and the holistic well-being is taken care of. So I really think it's about humanizing data and making data. Data is a partner in our success, in our growth, and in our failures as well. It's not a verdict on anybody's performance. Sometimes I think about data. There's the academic data, and there's the more social, emotional, well-being, belonging types of data. then there's also the response to that data. What is the affective, what is the emotional ways that people respond to data? And it's interesting that, you know, in some ways people have a more emotional reaction to academic data and maybe a more rational response in some ways to some of the types of social emotional things that we measure. What triggers this sort of emotional response when people see data? I would say the culture and the mindset towards using data like we talked about before. Do they see data as a story or they see data as a label? If it is 60 % of student, then am I saying the child is a 60 % but not looking at there is a chronic illness at home and the child is not even attending school? The entire universe will get to know the child got 60%. They won't get into the story. Whereas if a child is going to school, coming from a good family, everything seems to be okay. Why would a child not perform? If the moment I hear 60%, I should probably think this first, then thinking 60 % over the child is probably underachiever. Would you add to that Priya? I don't know. One word comes to mind and that is shame. ⁓ I think it's the shame that parents feel, there's somehow, there's this culture that you're not worthy if you're not a seven. And that messaging is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that it's hard to sort of take it out, isn't it? It is shame. It is, my child is not as good as my neighbors. And I think it's also then to do with, are we really loving our children unconditionally? I know this is a very, it's very subjective, but unfortunately, honest to God, this is the truth. So if my child is not a top notch football player or a cricketer or a gymnast or a debater or not a seven or not a 45. then they're not worthy of love. And that leads to shame, which is ingrained in our psyche. And therefore they're worthless if they're anything below 60 % or below seven or whatever it is. sense of shame, it connects just to what Ruchi was saying about that labeling, right? That I love that idea, you know, is data a label or is it a story? Because that really speaks to, is it a fixed? mindset, this is who you are, or is this a growth sort of thing? This is the story and this is a snapshot of one moment in that story. If you're a school leader, your day probably starts with questions. Who needs support? Where are the risks? What needs my attention right now? IntelliSchool helps answer those questions in real time. By bringing attendance, wellbeing, behaviour and learning into one connected platform, IntelliSchool cuts through the noise and gives leadership teams the clarity they need. Fewer spreadsheets, smarter decisions. and more time to focus on what really matters, your students. Lead with confidence using IntelliSchool. There were a couple of things I wanted to throw past you both. One, I wonder how much of this is rooted in comparison. Like if I feel that I am going to be compared with someone else, then the potential for me being shamed by that comparison. is much greater. think even, and I still find this an extraordinary story to relate, but one of the partner schools that I've worked with in recent years, I often need parent workshops. And at the end of a parent workshop, one of the parents stayed back to talk to me because they felt they were being bullied by other parents because their child was getting lower grades than other parents' children. And this just struck me how much of that then lies in comparison. So that was the first part of the question, following question I was going to ask. And the other was about removing the eye from it. How do we actually do that? Because a lot of us are looking for confirmation that we're not enough. And therefore if we get some of that confirmation in data, then it's going to reinforce that belief deeply. was thinking about over the summer, I rented a car on a holiday and the car had this new technology that at the end of every single drive gave me a score for safety and a score for kind of eco-responsibility. And the idea behind it was that it would make me safer and more ecological in my driving style, but it had the counter effect. I think it made me less so because again, it was feeding into that kind of ⁓ shame schema. So yes, not a straightforward question, but I wonder firstly about the role of comparison, how do we dial that back and how do we remove that eye so that it doesn't become a shame feeder? don't know. The straight forward answer to that, Matthew, is I don't know. But a couple of things come to mind. I think we have to do more in terms of communicating with each other, communicating particularly with children that they are more than that number. Okay, like clear, transparent. communication on a daily basis. Simple things like, care about you, I love you no matter what and who you are and what you are and what you're capable of. Okay, so I think that messaging from schools, from parents, from the peers, on social media, may I add, very, very clear. I don't know how we're going to do this, but we've got to. I think I agree with you, Priya, definitely we need to do more of communication. Just before we do that communication and ensure that communication is holistic in nature, I think schools as community need to sit together. If we are first convinced what we are expecting when we see results, when we do different kinds of assessments, and are we using and doing this triangulation in our schools, then only we can talk with that conviction and communicate. Because parents also will not just go by our, or the community members for that matter, will not just go by our words. you know, we are celebrating growth. But on the other hand, we have these flashy social posts coming about, how many students have achieved seventh grade in our school. So we can't be contradictory in our own approach and communication. We first need to sit together in the school and think about what we want to do. I remember this moment when I approached my principal. ⁓ I said, have, like all schools, we have so much of data in the school. We are calling Matthew Savage, are calling Rampalji, and we want to figure out how do we use this data. But narrative will not just come from calling people in the school. What do we believe in? Our case conferences only talk about academic data. Let's change the name of case conferences itself and make it student 360. The name, the nomenclature itself will define what we intend to do. And then put a structure of meeting in place. It could not be one or thing. which happens once or twice in a month. It needs to happen, okay, like on a consistent basis so that we are serving more and more students. When those stories will change in students' world, parents' perspective will change, and then the conviction in a perspective that we need to not depend on single story, look at growth, and ⁓ celebrate progress will fall in place. Do need to compare ourselves less? think because schools are forever comparing themselves with other schools. You talk about the social media feed. Schools do that all the time and schools seem to believe that I will get greater enrollment as a school if I compare myself against the other school and say my kids get better results than their kids do. So do you think if we compared ourselves less as schools, then this would actually put money where our mouth is? You know, it's not also sometimes the schools comparing themselves against other schools. Like in this context particularly, parents know about the schools because of historical knowledge and institutional knowledge and whatnot. So they've already made up their minds that if my child gets into A school, then obviously that school is better than B school and therefore my child is better served there. So there is already that. Yes, we need to compare ourselves less. Yes, of course. But again, All of those things will require very structural, systemic, conscious and deliberate efforts. But Paul, you touched upon, you know, why are we not heeding or paying more attention to, or do we not, why do we not get more reaction when we're looking at social-emotional data? And I think because ⁓ I'm reading this fantastic book called Permission to Feel by Mark Brackett. And he sort of, explores the idea that as human beings, we've moved away from becoming feelers of things to really knowers of things. So we don't acknowledge feeling truly or feeling genuinely. It's only about knowing all the time. So we really have to sort of go back to becoming more human and starting to feel and experience the emotions we wholly feel and then learn to regulate those skills with us. So once we rationalized to parents and students and teachers that our emotions are worthy of attention. And we can, if we learn to regulate them and direct them and harness their power, we can gain in all fears, including academic. So I think the conversation almost has to be reversed to making feelings truly and genuinely matter as much as academic grades matter. When you all were talking about Could we compare ourselves less? Could we have a more balanced approach to how we're sharing data? I was just imagining this conversation where one of you maybe is sitting down with the marketing team saying, you know what? We really shouldn't be splashing on the front of our website that 30 % or 20 % of our students got this amazing score on the IBDP tests. And the marketing team saying, yes, yes, we do have to do that. And there's that tension there, right? Where we sort of feel like this need of meeting people where they are, but then we also need to shift the needle and sort of reevaluate who can we be? I would want to add in there, while I completely understand where you're coming from. And I think, you know, the trick with data, personally, I have felt is we should not avoid either ends. We should not avoid even celebrating the ones who get sevens. We don't want to settle with underachievers or not meeting their potential. We need to push children to get their best. And if there are children who can get seven, should get seven and should be celebrated. Otherwise, they would think that the world is OK not getting seven. Why should I push myself? And we all know how students work in that particular age. ⁓ So we should not go at either extremes. that we don't want to label anybody with data. It's about how we are using data and how we are celebrating what our children are achieving. If they are students achieving grade seven, then we should celebrate them. But we should alongside have some success stories of children who've shown growth from three to five. And they also show up on our websites and social media. that we are celebrating success as well as the group. Otherwise, whole effort might be in yes. I would actually sort of disagree with that slightly, Ruchi, you know, because I would say it's not really about the seven or the three or the five. Are we ensuring that learning is at the forefront? If learning is at the forefront and you're learning because you care about learning and you're intrinsically motivated to learn about whatever it is you're learning. then that seven will be a byproduct or the three or the four or the five will be a byproduct of that automatically. I think more often than not, what's happening now, and I speak for schools everywhere perhaps, is that the narrative has shifted from learning to that end goal. We have removed the importance to the process of learning. How's this child thinking? How are they feeling? And I think if we, on social media said, This is how we do learning in our school. And because of this, we can achieve this, this, this, this, this. Then I think the narrative shifts and focuses on what is happening in the school building on the process of learning rather than that end goal after 15 years of education. So I think that narrative sort of needs to shift a little bit. Which goes back to what Ruchi was saying about data as a story versus as a label. Correct, yeah. And the thing so much of it is about, you know, we often find ourselves as educators saying, we would do this, but parental expectations, like, but our parents want that. And yet the more that we feed that monster, the more that we say how many sevens we've got, what percentage of our kids have gone off to Ivy League or Russell Group or whatever else it is, then the more parents are going to want that. And therefore the more we're going to talk about that. And there has to be surely something that kind of knocks us back onto a different trajectory. Otherwise it's like, I can see it as just getting more and more brutal for those, for those kids. And that conditionality that you were talking about earlier just becomes even more entrenched. You know, you are worth something if you do this or you achieve this or you get this grade. So I don't know how we kind of knock that, that trajectory back there. But I think there's already conversation, Matthew, in terms of well-being and mental health, which was unheard of, you know, a few years ago. So there's always, there is, so there is hope. There is hope. Because things like mental health and feelings and emotions, ⁓ which were not considered critical or important in a child's life or in adult's life are now being considered. are invited to a conversation at the table. And I feel very hopeful about that. And going back to what you said in terms of comparison, there's always bound to be comparison, but I think we have to really teach ourselves and our children to be peaceful and content with what we have. That does not mean stop being ambitious, but really understand who you are on the inside as a human being. and strive towards becoming a better version of yourself. So really compare yourself with yourself, essentially. And I think that is a skill we don't teach in our schools. So perhaps doing that would be better. So don't compare yourself to a friend, compare yourself to how you were last year. I really like that. Yeah. I wonder if we can bring it back also to balance. Richie, you were talking about balance. We mustn't just do this, we should also do that. And Priya, you were saying there, you know, Now we don't just talk about academics, now we also talk about ⁓ socio-emotional. But there is also then a risk that it becomes an either or. Whereas if we're looking for a duality where both actually rely upon and depend upon each other, and going back to what you said about permission to feel, if we see feeling as a way of knowing, just as we see thinking as a way of knowing, then neither of those ways of knowing is superior to the other. knowing becomes richer because we've got both of those. So how do we get that balance within data so that data recognizes the duality rather than forcing a dualism out of it and maintains that balance where there's validity in all data, perhaps? There's one thing that we have tried in our school. Now, since last year, very consciously, and they're also used to happen, but by default. Now on the last year onwards, we've taken this on. If we observe something which is a miss for a child, it could be an attendance case, it could be late coming, it could be past data or academic performance or counselor gets to know something, then we must not just sit with that one piece of information and figure out more about the two other buckets. If it is attainment, then figure out more about the attitude and the aptitude. If it is aptitude that we've noticed there is something off, then figure out something more about attitude and attainment. Then triangulate. And then there is this piece of the family scenarios. Once we figured out there was a child in grade nine, he was often coming late to school. And we noticed through our late coming travel that this child has fourth occurrence, fifth occurrence within a month. And otherwise, this child is very bright. He is ⁓ not flagged for much concerns, otherwise by counselor or past data. So the head of program reached out to his parents and found out that the mother was suffering with chronic illness. Father was mostly traveling. The child was at home with the house phone staff and was often coming by himself, getting ready, taking care of himself. There are more responsibility like adult in the house. And on top of it also, eating all meals by himself. The staff is there to just be there serving the household. And then we went back to pass to critically see what is this data saying? Is nothing flagged in pass while the child is not a flagged phase in general? We figured out the child's attainment, like the perception towards self was lower, lower side, while rest of the data was fine. And this child was left with this feeling that I am by myself. When counselors talked to this child, figured out how he is feeling, we took this ⁓ whole scenario back to the parents, informing them that this is what we have noticed. He's coming late to school and this is what he's feeling about himself. These conversations led to a situation where child's late coming really dropped drastically. He was coming to school on time. It took a couple of months to get him back to shape. So this kind of triangulation and communication gives a structure for us to keep ourselves working towards trans-Value. So it's being intentional about resisting the single story. It's easy to accept the single story, know, refer to Adichie's lecture and an essay. The single story is so much easier, isn't it, in a way, because it reduces, it narrows, it makes something seem simple. But you're talking about intentionally resisting the single story and seeking the other parts that make the story what it is. Otherwise, if you look at the late coming tracker, it was simply a discipline case. But when we scratched the surface, reached out to parents to know more what is happening, then it became a story and we could support the child. 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All of that comes back to some of the ideas that you talk about a lot, Matthew, about warm data, finding that context, right, and seeing the story behind it, and also slowing down a little bit, right, and not jumping to conclusions about what those initial indicators might mean. And it makes me think of some of the ladder of inference. If you're familiar with that, you know, how we tend to jump into the judgment phase rather than staying curious longer. When you're leading this kind of work with staff members, with school leaders, there's a lot of nuance in it. It's very subtle and there's a lot of sensitivity and there's a lot of emotional intelligence that goes into it. You know, how are you thinking now about the idea of data literacy? Sometimes we talk about data literacy. What role do you see for the role of emotional intelligence in something like data literacy? You know, just want to go back to, mean, Ruchi gave a very strong, clear example of how we can look at all the different associated components to make the whole story of the child. And I think that requires a lot of time and a lot of digging deeper. And that is one thing that's missing in schools. There's always this pressure to do this and do that and do something else. And I think the first step is really creating this awareness that a student is more than the number that you see. A student is more than that label that you're trying to ⁓ stick on him or her. And I think we have to start that. And that really starts with creating this data conscious and data mindful culture. You know, when we have that training with you, Matthew, where you work with our middle leaders, that really helped us sort of really open our minds to how do we gather all that data, triangulate it and make it a whole. That really helped. I think having those conversations, inviting speakers to participate in those conversations really helped. and then formulating a plan to carry us forward and move us along in that journey ⁓ helps with that. ⁓ You talked about emotional intelligence. I think you have to really drive home the point to the teachers that when you look at data in such a way, you're really demonstrating care for your students. You're coming from a place of care in order to get them to buy into this narrative. that it's not just about academic data, but it's about data as a whole. If I may add there, I think how it has helped us over one and a half years now to consciously and deliberately get into this work is having certain protocols, simple protocols in place. Before the meeting, what are the norms that we are going to follow? Like a typical adaptive school conversation. What are the norms? Bringing the intention on the table. And then those protocols only guide the conversation, not random conversation on data. How we are presenting the data, how comprehensive it is for teachers to look at this data, the visual should be very, very clear to them. Instead of the tabular form of data where numbers, numbers, numbers are only shown, which could be overwhelming. So it is better to present it in a manner so that it is comprehensive and all people can comprehend it, not just the math teachers. These are the few nuances of holding such meetings where data is discussed, has helped bring a structure and take everybody along. And those protocols reduce the time burden as well, don't they? If you have an effective protocol, then you have less possibility that there's just not going to be enough time to do it this different way. And not leaving teachers with the sense that these meetings are just to talk and no action. Any data conversation, if not ended. with some action to be taken afterwards, then we are losing the momentum of this work. It needs to translate into action. I imagine those protocols can also address some of that sense of vulnerability or trust where people feel that anxiety, like, I being judged in this data? A good protocol can help neutralize that a little bit. True. I wonder what was really interesting to me also earlier, Rishu, when you talked about a specific example where we were drawn towards the single story, but we sought the holism and it was like an epiphany to us. I wonder, Priya, whether you have any examples, maybe about an individual student, maybe sometimes about a group of students, a class, a grade level, a cohort, where using data holistically to tell a story rather than plant a label. has helped you learn new truths. Can you speak to any of that? Yes, actually. So, you know, ⁓ after the series of workshops with you, know, Matthew, where you sort of kept saying, bring the pieces of the data puzzle together. So we literally did that. So we ran a PD in school in sort of helping teachers understand how to bring all the pieces of the data puzzle together. And we call the PD from harm to healing, fear to thriving. That was the PD. So we removed the word data from it intentionally because we felt like there would be some resistance from teachers if we put the word data in there. So we called it this. We called it something different, know, harm to healing, fear to thriving. Who doesn't want to do that? And then we created puzzle pieces of real stories, but from different facets of a student's life. So it was their academic scores, it was their past scores, it was their mentoring and tracking scores, ⁓ or narratives, and it was also their personal narratives and how they were feeling at school at certain points in the time. And we gave each table a different set of the story, and they didn't know the other side of the story. And then at the end, we asked everybody to gather for those stories at different tables. bringing their puzzle pieces together and joining really the puzzle pieces. And when you should have seen the epiphany, epiphany is going on in the room at that point because suddenly the teacher A realized student B was so many other things than just that horrible rude behavior in their class. They suddenly saw, ⁓ this is why this student is so obnoxious in my class. They got it. They suddenly got it. And then they stopped seeing this student as the obnoxious student, but as a student who needed dedicated attention because they were really struggling and found the class incredibly boring, which the teacher hadn't realized until then. So then the teacher made interventions, went back after the PD made interventions, and then it was very slow progress because this student would resist any attempt. this teacher trying to make a connection with them. But eventually, I think after about maybe three months or so, the students said to the teacher, know, Miss, you look at me differently now. And this teacher said, well, what exactly do you mean? ⁓ No, you don't see me with this notion in your eyes that I'm already a failure. You don't have that judgment in your look. or in your face anymore. And then this teacher said, yes, you know, I actually learned something more about you. That was a start of this honest relationship between the student and the teacher because the walls broke down and the masks came off from the teacher, the mask that the teacher was wearing, but also from the student. And I think that really was a story that really touched my heart when this teacher came back and narrated to me because I didn't think that it would have such an impact on this one child and this one classroom. And I hope that there were many like that later on. So the unmasking Matthew is not just the students, but it's also the teachers. Yeah, that's really beautiful. It reminds me, I mean, we're talking here about an ethical strand running through it. It reminds me, Paul, of your data maturity model, where data ethics is a key and central part to it as well. It seems what we're all talking about here is that we need to use data ethically. And if we insert ethics into that practice, then actually it's not as confusing about how we do this as it can otherwise seem like the right thing is the right thing. So let's use data ethically. Does that chime with when you first talked about that with your model book? Absolutely. And I'm getting chills from from that story, Priya. ⁓ It just makes me think those masks can be so heavy for students, for teachers, for everyone. There's so much work that we put into trying to pretend to be something that we're not or not recognizing that humanity. that when we take the masks off for a little bit and we see each other and we feel like we're there, that lets us be our best selves. in so many ways and that interconnection between that ethical piece, the social emotional piece of then feeling that sense of safety and well-being and belonging, that's what enables true academic achievement and growth and people living up to their potential and not just in terms of the scores but in whatever direction people want to move towards. ⁓ No, it's beautiful. Thank you. And I feel like I've grown just listening to some of the stories that you both have shared. ⁓ I'm going to borrow from ⁓ one of Matthew's tricks here. If you were going to complete this sentence, data at its best, what is the best that data can offer? What does data do when it is at its best? I think what we've been discussing since the beginning was that we want to look at this whole child very clearly. So I would consider data at its best helps us reflect on how well do we know our learners? Then how do we support them? That data won't tell, of course, but triangulating data might help us drive towards that decision of how to support this child. So similar to what Ruchi said, I look at data as patterns and as colors. So for me, data is patterns to purpose and purpose to patterns. Because it's helping us really identify those patterns and bring them to a purpose, an actionable outcome. So data is about humanizing the child, humanizing us. Well, I knew we would love this whole conversation and you guys have. lived up to that promise amazingly. And it seems to me what we've trodden here is a journey from maybe from shame to story is a good way to capture more you've talked about here. And I think it's been a beautiful and nourishing conversation. So I'm so grateful to both of you. Thank you so much for joining us, really. Thank you so much. Tune in next time as we continue our data conversations with educators and thought leaders from around the world.