Dark Overtones 102: The Invitation with Mary Wild and Eric Braddock

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Human beings are creatures of habit, creatures of regularity, creatures of reassurance.
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We dedicate ourselves to keeping our lives comfortable so much that we make ourselves
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slaves to social rules. We accommodate others to follow those rules even when the price is our
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own comfort. But what if the price was more than comfort? What if that price was our own personal safety?
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2015, Karen Kasama put this very idea to film. Her movie The Invitation shows us what happens
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when social rules and norms demand that we behave normally in polite company, regardless of whether
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we notice the walls closing in. We must drink wine, we must laugh at bad jokes, we must engage in
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dinner conversation, even with an ever-increasing sense of danger and dread. We must nod politely at
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all times. When we're mourning our dead children, when we're being shown video clips of people
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struggling for their last gasps of air, when we're growing increasingly sure that our smiling,
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gracious hosts mean us harm.
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Join me as I talk with horror connoisseur and Freudian psychology expert Mary Wilde
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as we discuss Karen Kasama's 2015 crucible, The Invitation.
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Welcome back, listener to Dark Overtones. This is episode number 102 where I am very,
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very lucky to have the wonderful Mary Wilde back with us to talk about a movie that she
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chose for herself. I gave her the option to listen to or to watch any movie this season and she
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chose The Invitation. So we can be sure that we're going to have a good conversation about
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Karen Kasama's 2015 thriller, The Invitation. Mary, welcome back, always a pleasure.
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Hello Kurt, nice to be back. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
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Of course. I'm only sorry that you can't be back for more episodes this series, but we'll get you
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back again. We'll get you back again. Definitely. Okay, so before we get started each episode,
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I know that we did this when we did the rundown of all the episodes in series one, but for those
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who aren't familiar with you and your wonderful background, why don't you go ahead and tell us
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a bit about yourself, your work, and again, how you became interested in horror more generally,
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I know. I think a lot of our listeners know that you have a connection to the
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excellent Evolution of Horror podcast, which is now the Evolution of Horror network. There are
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several podcasts tied in there, but why don't you tell us a bit about yourself and what drew you
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to horror more generally? Sure thing. So I do work in the field of sort of applying psychoanalysis
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to film interpretation. I ran a lecture series called Projections at the Freud Museum in London
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for over a decade. And in that process, really got into examining horror movies, especially
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because I feel like they're very amenable to a Freudian or a deeper kind of psycho dynamic or
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psychoanalytic study. I started collaborating with my monster, as you said, doing wild about horror.
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And now I'm more in the podcast world for sure. But I've also ventured into writing more. I'm
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putting the final, final touches on my book, which is going to be about psychoanalyzing horror cinema.
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Hell yeah. And if I can interject, the book that you're writing is a bit of a spin-off of your
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wild about horror segments, isn't it? Exactly right. Yes. It is basically a compendium of all the
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segments that I wrote for Mike. And I really never thought that I'd even be a writer in this kind
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of formal way, because my area of work has mostly been lecturing and podcasting. But I sort of ended
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up with a large amount of bits and pieces of writing that I did over the years working with Mike.
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So it kind of made sense to cobble them together, piece them together and present them in a book form.
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I think for me, horror is just a very natural genre for looking at psychoanalyzing concepts.
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There's so much in Freud that is of touching on the darker aspects of the human condition.
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Right. And so it just makes sense to engage deeply with the horror genre as a kind of
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illustration of what can go on for people internally. And that's why I always feel so excited to see
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podcasts like yours coming up, because I think it's really an area of cinema that deserves more
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attention. Well, let's dive into psychology a little bit more, because I know that you are
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primarily a Freudian psychologist, but you also don't fancy yourself a Jungian too, correct?
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A little bit. I mean, I double, I can't say that I have this, that as much knowledge of Jung as I have
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a Freud or Lacan, but I do love and appreciate a lot from Jung, especially what he's written about
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archetypes and the persona and the shadow. That's what I was getting at. That's exactly what I was
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getting at. So what I was trying to get you to do here, because I mean, I know psychology because
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of my work in the area of violence, but some people might not necessarily be familiar with
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how Freud connects to horror or how you might connect Jung to horror. If you could, if you
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can't, it's okay. If you could give us like 45 second synopses of how you see Freud connecting to
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horror and Jung connecting to horror, because Jung for me, and I'm sure you'll explain this,
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I see it all about the shadow self and how we see ourselves and how we kind of put ourselves in the
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place of even villains in horror movies. How do you connect the two both for Freud and for Jung?
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That's a great question. I think for Freud, I would say that the aspect that connects to horror is
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everything that he said about repressed content in the mind that dwells deep in the unconscious.
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It's something that is unacceptable to the conscious personality, the ego, you know,
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so there's so much about ourselves that we're not aware of. And yet it governs us,
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often leading us to do things that are nefarious to our well being, maybe self self sabotaging,
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destructive, aggressive, violent, or maybe even just uncanny, irrational, absurdist,
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but it does produce a horrific effect in the mind. See, this is perfect because I've already
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known, so I'm thinking about the next episode I want to have you on and the next series I'm going
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to do and I don't want to segue too much, but the next series I'm going to do is going to be on like
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dark, like horror sci-fi, adjacent type things. So you will be on the the annihilation episode
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I've just decided. For those who've seen annihilation, annihilation is all about how we
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self-destruct, but in any event, we'll get to that in a few months probably. But anyway,
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go on about Freud because I thought it was all about, you know, wanting to have sex with our
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mothers. Yeah, well, that's it. His reputation perceives him definitely. But basically, I just
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think for me, it's always a tug of war in the mind when I think of Freud. He painted this picture
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of our conscious personality always come in a kind of embattled tension with our unconscious.
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And, and the ego always wants to push down the intolerable, the unacceptable, but it doesn't
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just disappear, it has to go somewhere that energy is transferred deep into the recesses of the mind
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and there some ugly monsters can get constructed. Fantastic. And I think that disagrees well into
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Jung because Jung took that idea from psychoanalysis when he was one of Freud's close collaborators
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before they had an epic falling out. I did not know that. Yes, yes. In fact, Freud was the one
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who sought him out, you know, as a very talented young psychiatrist from Swiss, Switzerland. Carl
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Jung, you know, was already making his mark in the psychoanalytic community and Freud being in
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Vienna wanted to work with him very closely. And so they were, you know, they were good
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colleagues for many years, where they fell apart was because Freud was very much
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self perceiving as an empirical scientist he wanted to be. I mean, I know that sounds funny
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now because of course, modern psychologists have rejected psychoanalysis on the basis of this.
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Well, empiricism is relative to the time that it is. Exactly. We can only, and again for the
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non academic nerds out there, empiricism just means that and I consider myself an empiricist,
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which is why I kind of started this podcast is empiricism relates to the fact that we draw
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knowledge from things that we can sense things that we can measure things that we can see,
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things that we can hear, things that we can touch. So as an empiricist, I do my research
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on the basis of observation of measurable phenomena. But we're a lot better at measuring
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phenomena now that we were in when was Freud around? I don't even know the year early 1900s.
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Yeah, we're a bit better now. We can do things now that we couldn't do in the early 1900s.
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Exactly. Yeah, precisely. So you're you are right. It is always relative. But all this to say that,
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you know, Freud did come from a neurology background. He wanted to preserve a more or less
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formal image of psychoanalysis. He didn't want to be too esoteric. Whereas Carl Jung was very
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much, I think a spiritualist, and he wanted to very much embed notions of the mystical and
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maybe even God into into psychoanalysis. And Freud just was not having that. So they've
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definitely have fell apart on that. A really good illustration of what happened there,
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that relationship is actually David Cronenberg's film, A Dangerous Method.
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Really? Yes, it's all about the two of them and what brought them together, but also how they
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felt fell out. I didn't even know that that Cronenberg did anything in that area. David,
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anyway. Yes, exactly. Yeah, definitely want to watch it is worth seeing. Vigo Mortensen plays
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Freud. Oh, that's worth watching. So my the extent of my knowledge of these two is number one, that
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like I said earlier, all I knew about Freud before you and I started talking hard was that he said
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that everybody wants to have sex with their family members. Yeah, and number two, for Jung,
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I knew because of my insane fandom of the band Tool, and there there are a lot of their songs,
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especially one of my favorite songs called 46 and two, which is about kind of stepping through
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your shadow self and recognizing what you can evolve to if you do that, if you shed your shadow,
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and what your shadow wants. But that that was the extent of my knowledge about it. I had no idea
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that they even knew each other, let alone that they were collaborators and then kind of,
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I don't want to say enemies, but you know, that's that's how we are in academics.
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Well, I think it I think it's probably a correct qualifier by the end. They were definitely enemies.
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But but yes, I think for for Jung, you know, he took a lot of those ideas, but spoke about them
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in much more fluid terms, much much less clinical, much much more soulful and spiritual.
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But what he ended up doing was was carving out this almost like a personification
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in, you know, in the psyche of what is actually being repressed and in what category,
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and what is it, what can we imagine it looks like. So when he talks about the shadow,
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he's really talking about a specific section of the unconscious world that is a reservoir
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for everything nightmarish specifically, you know, everything that is of the horror,
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of the horrific of the horrific that that we have in ourselves, what we don't want to do,
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we don't want to acknowledge exactly. So we talked, didn't we talk on your podcast once about
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our shadow selves and the fact that I believe that humans are at their base, we're just
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animals that that we have a, a, I believe you call it a death drive and the tendency to want to kill
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one another, but we've evolved the ability to avoid that kind of a similar type idea. If I'm
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if I'm reading young properly. No, that's correct. You know, it's something that hasn't been integrated
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into conscious life. So we are prone to reject it to pretend it doesn't exist. So there's a lot
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of denial going on. But also in the process of denying, we project the shadow outwards. So we,
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we identify reflections of our own shadow in our surroundings, and as a way of externalizing,
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you know, what, what is, what, what is difficult to accept. So we can point out into the outer world
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and say, you know, that person is X, Y and Z and we qualify them as monstrous or evil or whatever.
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We see a lot of that in American politics at the moment.
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Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's this is actually very rife in politics. It happens all the time.
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And so that's ultimately what the shadow is. It is a kind of it. It's, you know, Carl Jung said
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that until you make peace with your shadow until you sit with it, and really like confronted and
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try to even integrate it into your conscious life by way of acceptance, then you are going to be
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living a very reaction prone, very volatile life, you know, so in a weird way, in a weird way, and
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I only know this because I've gone through cognitive behavioral therapy for different psychological
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type issues, not anything too drastic, but I have, I've been, I've been diagnosed with, you know,
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depression anxiety, I think a lot of people have been, but also a bit of a bit of OCD, like clinical
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OCD, not the cute stuff you see in movies. And one of the things you learn through CBT with OCD is
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that by trying to fight negative thoughts or compulsions, you only make them stronger. So
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you can only accept that they exist and that they don't really mean anything. They're just thoughts.
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So it's not necessarily that you have to act on them. It stops becoming a reactive thing. You go,
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okay, that's there. And now it's gone. You just accept that it exists. And it's a normal part
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of the human condition. Yes, exactly. I think that's a good way of putting it. And I think that
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ultimately, I mean, you know, especially for horror fans, probably what people are not even
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consciously setting out to do, but what they do in the end, ultimately, is that by continually
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engaging with the horror material, they are actually processing their own shadow. So they are
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sitting with their shadow, rather than rejecting it, rather than projecting it outwardly and
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externalizing it onto another. And they're actually there is I did some research a while ago on a
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couple of it's called the dark tetrad different personality traits that we all have. And certain
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people who have are high on something called everyday sadism, like they enjoy horror movies,
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for example, it's not full sadism, it's just every they call it everyday sadism stuff that we
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encounter every day. So like things like people who enjoy MMA, people who enjoy horror movies,
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things like that, they're less prone to violent tendencies. Yeah, exactly right. That yeah,
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totally. It seems paradoxical, you think that there would be an element of influence, right?
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I mean, that's what Nancy Reagan would have. That's what Nancy, yeah, exactly. That's all the
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kind of pearl clutching satanic panic people would have argued that the exposure is what causes
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the violence. We know for sure from scientific study that that is simply not true. And actually,
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what you just said is the which is the reverse is true. And that is people who process their shadow
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on a regular basis actually show, you know, less signs of potentially violent behavior or
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destructive behavior, they're more peaceful. And I have to say, I, you know, I mean, obviously,
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there are always exceptions. There's always some, you know, some, you know, people who don't,
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who don't, who don't fall into this. But I would say for on the whole, my own experience with people
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in the horror community, this has been the case where I found that people have been rather like,
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I don't know, just they seem so nice. I know what I mean. 100%. I am new to the horror community
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generally. And my introduction to the horror community was through evolution of horror.
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Like I always just, you know, I consider myself a fan, but through the evolution of horror and
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meeting you and other people from from Mike's podcast. And now with the chats on Patreon,
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not just not just Mike's but also yours in the on the Mary Wilde podcast, or the Myri Wilde,
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your discussions, whatever, whatever form they take, those chats in there, everybody is so
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welcoming and so friendly and so defensive of other people within the community, I think partially
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because they've processed that shadow, but also because because of the Nancy Reagan perspective,
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I think a lot of people are very defensive of those who enjoy these things because we have to
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convince people that, you know, we're not complete sociopaths are going to hurt other people.
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Exactly. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of consideration and kindness.
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I think so too. Okay, so with with Freud and Young kind of contextualized, that's that's a
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perfect way to move into the idea that not everybody who's listening right now will have seen the
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invitation. I actually got some text messages after the last week's episode on it follows that said,
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I haven't seen it follows, but now I'm definitely going to go see it. But some people might not
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be familiar with the invitation. I think it was a bit of a low key type movie. I couldn't even tell
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you if it got a theatrical release. But a lot of people aren't familiar with it. I found it on
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Netflix. So for those who aren't familiar, can you give a synopsis without giving away spoilers?
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And this is the first time where there actually might be some spoilers in the movie. So if you
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can avoid them, awesome. And I'll warn the audience when we get into the spoilers.
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Yeah, sure. So the story is is all occurring really just inside a house in Los Angeles.
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And it's a dinner party inside the house where so a man is invited there with his new girlfriend.
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He actually used to live in this house with his ex wife. And so his name is will he's played by
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Logan Marshall, Marshall green. And he gets this invitation to come for a dinner party at the house
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where he used to live with his ex wife who's called Eden and she's played by Tammy Blanchard.
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But she now shares this old house of theirs with her new husband. And they're kind of
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quite I don't know how to I would say this is a quick funny quirky a bit a bit on the odd side.
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Let's say the whole premise like I mean from the beginning you realize something's a little
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off with these two. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, there's definitely something a bit askew, a bit of rye.
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And but it's meant to be his inner party will and his new girlfriend show up. And they, you know,
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are also greeted by a lot of the shared friends that will had with his ex wife. We learned that
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some tragedy has occurred inside the house. And and and yeah, it just gets stranger and stranger
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from there. And by stranger and stranger, this is not a paranormal movie. No, we'll put it that way.
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But there is an increasing intensity throughout the course of the evening. And you're left wondering
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exactly what's going on throughout the entire time. And it's really you can't say much more than
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now without really spoiling it. That's it, isn't it? It's a tricky one because it's it's a it's a
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tight little like chamber piece. It's all occurring inside this house. There is not, as you say,
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it's not paranormal. There's no like fantasy element to it. In that sense. It's not like a monster
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movie or like a vampire or zombie movie or anything like that. So it doesn't require special effects.
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It's just working on I think like a thought experiment almost or like great. You know what
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I mean? Like it's a kind of psychological or ontological thriller where it's a mind fuck and
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we are placed we are placed inside the mind of actually in a way will because he's quite he's
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he's suffering from a lot of trauma from what occurred in the house. Am I allowed to say what
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happened in there? Yeah, absolutely. So we're from this point forward. I'm going to say,
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yeah, well, no, no, no, no, I'm just going to say from this point forward, if you've not seen the
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invitation, go and see it because we really can't talk about it without talking about what happened
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to will what happens to will throughout the entirety of the movie. So if you've not seen it,
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stop now, go see it and then come back and pick up at this part in the in the podcast because
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I would say that one of the strongest parts of this movie are the fact that each scene builds to
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the ending scene and we can't talk about the building scenes without without giving something
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away. So at this point, stop if you haven't seen it, go watch it, enjoy and then come back and now
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please feel free, Mary. All right. Well,
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a lot of the action that occurs in the invitation
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orbits around a terrible tragedy that occurred inside the house, which is the fact that Will
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and Eden, when they were still married, their young boy passed away tragically at during his own
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birthday party. I was gonna say, do we find out, I forget if we found out how he died?
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Yeah, I believe it was an accident where he was whacked over the head.
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I think they were playing piñata or something. Is that what happened? I can't remember at all.
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I just know that it's very clear that he died during a festive event. Yes, yes. I mean, it's not,
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you are right to say that it's not ever talked about like the exact manner in which he passed away.
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It's sort of briefly touched on like just very fleetingly and we get like flashes,
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you know, when Will is remembering or when memories flood his mind. But also the fact
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that it is not discussed openly where we have full details and there is no forensic examining
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of the death. I think it lends to the feeling of dissociation and the feeling of wanting to
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separate and detach from the tragedy. I think so too. That helps us identify with the main characters
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as they go through this. So not just Will but also Eden because you find out by the end,
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Eden is also suffering despite the fact that she is pretending that she's not.
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Exactly. So given that we know quite early on, it is sort of revealed quite early on
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in the movie that Will and Eden used to be married. Their kid passed away at his birthday party
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inside that house and then they went through a terrible time trying to cope with grief.
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They each had their difficulties and struggles coping with the loss. Eden tried to commit suicide
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and Will seems to have just withdrawn. Like he just seems to be like shut in.
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Eventually they did split up. But then of course we know that Eden, she's gone off to Mexico.
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Yep. With her new boyfriend who is not the first but the second Dario Nahar. Yeah,
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maybe his Dario Nahar is from Game of Thrones. Oh yeah. That's how I knew him. I was like,
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hey, that guy's from Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's right. You're right. I completely forgot about that.
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His name in the movie is David. So Eden and David now live in this house and they are throwing this
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dinner party seemingly to just have everyone together. But then they launch into the wonderful
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benefits of some grief counseling they've had or some kind of healing work they've done in Mexico
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at a resort. And it's almost, I don't know about you, but when they're telling their guests about
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all of this, it sounds a hell of a lot like, I don't know, like an MLM party or something.
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Oh yeah, they're definitely selling something. I would be out of there as soon as they started.
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As soon as they started, no, they're definitely selling something at the beginning and these
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telling becomes more intense over the course of the movie. But I don't know if you picked up on
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this, but the actual, the experience or the bringing people into what they're doing is actually that
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they call it the invitation. So it's yeah, yeah. So that the movie's title has a double meaning,
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both the invitation of the party and then the invitation into what they see. And by they,
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I mean Eden and David, what they see as this healing trajectory, how to get over all of life's
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problems. Yes, exactly. And they have all of this kind of very life coachy sort of like self-help
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style pieces of advice that they throw around and they claim to be rid of all of the negative
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emotions and they're putting on this performance as if they've got their lives perfectly together.
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And this is all unsolicited. Like they're just kind of like coming out with this,
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like, you know, a sales pitch. And, and, and at this point, there's like a kind of mixture of
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of responses from the guests. It's, it's, it's, it all seems so, it's just, it's, I find that really
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compelling the way that there's a total lack of awareness. Like there, there's no reading the
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room. They're just like launching into this. And there's some people there who seem very
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uncomfortable, particularly when they start showing the video. The video is a so, so I mentioned the
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video in the intro to this episode because the video is clearly a turning point in, well, not a
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turning point, an inflection point where some people recognize that something is really fucked
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up right now. And other people saying, well, this is probably just self-help thing. Not that
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they're buying into it, but they buy into the weird new AG advice that they start giving after
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that video. Yes, exactly. Well put. And the video itself is very, it's very dodgy. It's,
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it's essentially it shows someone dying. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, I mean, it's a snuff film without
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somebody being murdered. Exactly. It really is a snuff film. You're right. Yeah, you're absolutely
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right. And so it is very disturbing. There's obviously a lot of like upset people at this
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point. Most notably, one of the guests after being shown this video, requests to leave.
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David runs the house in a very strange way. There's bars on the windows. He locks the front door.
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He locks the front door. He locks the front door. And so people don't have access to like exit the
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house. There's also problems with the wifi. Like they can't get a signal in there. It seems to be
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really cut off and isolated and will picks up on this. So what this, what this follows, and I will
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say this from my, my background as a researcher of violence and the other guests I'm going to have on,
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if I can get a hold of them, it might just be you this week, Mary, but there's another guest I'm
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trying to get on. It's difficult to schedule, but he's done work on, if you haven't guessed it,
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cults. One of the things that cults do is isolate you from the outside world and give you advice
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on what you can do to make your life better, to tell you that the things you've experienced are
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suffering their trauma, etc, etc. And they can give you the answer to make life better. So
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what you're seeing at that point is almost like a microcosm of the way that cults operate.
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That's so interesting. Yes, I can see those parallels actually. You're right. It's like a
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fast tracked kind of topography of cultist behavior. Great way to put it. Shown inside this movie.
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Because even when he is questioned, you know, about like, why is the door locked? You know,
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why, why haven't you put the key in the door? And he just, he, David makes up an excuse like,
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oh, we've had some robberies in the area. Like, yeah, dude lives in Hollywood Hills. He didn't
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have robberies. He did not have robberies in the area. He lives up in the space where like,
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Mahallan Drive took place. Yes, exactly. It's a very fancy neighborhood. Yes. So it's definitely,
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it definitely sounds off when he says it. But what I love about the way that the character of Will
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is developed, even from early on in the movie, is the fact that he is so hyper vigilant. Like,
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his, he doesn't stop scanning any room that he's in. Correct. He's constantly on guard. He seems
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very preoccupied. He can't relax. You know, like someone's talking to him and he seems distracted.
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He seems like really cut off, like zoning out or something. Yeah. And it's also, he asked to
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see the other rooms in the house. Like, the filmmaker, Kanra Kasama is very clever here because
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he asked to see other rooms in the house. So you're expecting him to be kind of scanning
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the entire time. And he is. And something that allows, it's interesting because Will serves as
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a stand in for the audience, even though his experience is different from that of the audience,
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because he's very suspicious of everything going on. And so are we.
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Yes. He's very suspicious and he also doesn't talk about his experience. You know, he seems,
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he definitely seems like there's something on his mind, but he's, he seems very reserved and like
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he's bottling up some emotion. Whereas Eden is putting on this performance that she's so
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emotionally in tune and she's done all this work and done all this healing and processing, you know.
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So she's like doing super well now, you know, and she's finally nipped it in the bud or whatever.
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And it's like, I love how the two are kind of put in way and opposition on the same spectrum of grief.
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It seems to me like Eden is like protesting too much, you know. Well, she do, I don't,
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what do you say the name of the actress was that plays Eden because she was absolutely brilliant
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because throughout the entire movie she is meant to act as though that she is fine,
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but the entire time she looks like she's fighting back tears the entire time. And that must have been
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such a difficult thing to pull off because as soon as you see her, you realize that she's upset,
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but she does very well to put on the mask of being okay. Well said. Yes, you're right. She's really good at
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smiling through tears. Like there's so many scenes in what she's doing that and you can see that her
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eyes are watering, but she's putting, she's like pasting on plastering on this like fake smile.
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It reminded me very much of like, you know, the, the smiling and frowning theater masks. Like you
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see, she reminded me of being the smiling mask while actually feeling the frowning mask.
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I love that. Yes, the dramatic arts. Yes, it's true. Yes, it's a performance. It's a performance.
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Exactly. Exactly. She's doing theater and they're all doing theater except for maybe David,
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who seems to be a true believer. David seems to have bought in little Klein and Sinker.
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Yeah. Yeah. He's like, he's like a real indoctrinated cult member. Right. So before, before we go too
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deep, there's a couple of things I want to ask you as an expert in psychology about the kind of the
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first steps in the movie. So we've, we've let our audience know that there's something amiss here,
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that a child died. There is a uncomfortable dinner party, but there are some things that happen in
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the first half of the movie that kind of this movie is the reason I kind of want to do this
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podcast honestly, because there is some symbolism in this movie. I don't really understand. And I
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think that you might have some input on. So in the first 90 seconds of the movie, the first 90
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seconds will and Kira are driving to the party and they hit a coyote. They hit a coyote that and
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there is no reference to this hitting the coyote until they get to the party. So yeah, we hit a
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coyote. But aside from that, there is no reference to it in the movie whatsoever. It's just kind of
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an event that occurs and it has no bearing on the plot that I can tell. It just kind of happens.
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It kind of sets an unsettling tone, but that's about it. It has nothing in terms of the plot.
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That struck me as weird. My question to you is, what do you think that was? Why would,
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why would Kisama include a scene where on the way they hit a coyote when they can just start the
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movie at the party itself? Why would they start with that? I think that I believe that it is a
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symbol of mercy killing, which this cult elevates as their, as their most essential value.
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So I believe that they recruit people into this cult and fill them with all of these fantasies
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that, you know, this life is just suffering and, you know, you're miserable here, but you have to
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have faith that you're going after you die, you're going to be reunited with your loved ones on the
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other side and you're going to, you're going to all be together again and you won't feel grief
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anymore and all the pain and all the suffering is going to end. And so they have like, they operate
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on the basis of like accelerating the path of your death so that, so that you could reach these people
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on the other side sooner. I mean, it's a total scam. It is, it is. And so there, there is, this is
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the first movie that actually I dove into like the research on related to this. So I have to admit,
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I did a bit of research on coyotes generally and their symbolism in literature. So number one,
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mercy killing of a character that came, that came to my mind immediately. Yeah. But something that
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you just said in that the members of the cult, which in this case would be Eden and David, they're
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essentially tricking everybody into joining the cult and eventually, again, if you haven't seen the
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movie, go see it because this is the ultimate spoiler, they're, they try to trick everybody into
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killing themselves. Yes. In many Native American myths, the coyote is seen as a trickster character,
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is seen as somebody who pulls the wool over people's eyes. And among some people, among some Native
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American tribes, they said the coyote is a mediator between life and death, that the coyote is the
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one that transitions people between life and death. And others have claimed that coyotes are omens
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that cross into one's path because they mean to stop your journey, or you're going to be risked
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being hurt or killed, the coyote stops people if there is something on their horizon that might
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hurt or kill them, which struck me as really, really salient here, in that they hit the coyote
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on their way to their dinner party, which ultimately would have ended in their, in their deaths if
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they didn't fight back. There were also, there were also researchers from Western New Mexico who
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said that the emergence of a coyote, it foretells the unfortunate event in the future. So there are
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a lot, or there is a lot of research on the symbolism of a coyote and what it means. And
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all of the meanings that I found relate to kind of a harbinger of something negative on the horizon,
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which I thought was really, really interesting. I love that. I had not thought about that possible
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connection. That makes a lot of sense with a coyote. I mean, it makes sense. But do you think
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Kusama meant that? Because I think that your explanation is much more, it's much more grounded.
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But who knows what Kusama was thinking? Sure, sure. I mean, who knows? I mean, ultimately, I
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totally, I just really love what you said about the trickster symbolism. The cult members do treat
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the guests in a very indirect way. They trick them into ingesting poison, basically.
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Or try to, yeah, one, one succumbs to it for sure. One succumbs, yeah, that's their aim.
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And it's not a straightforward, sort of consensual induction into a society.
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No. But then again, you know, and it's like, how could it be? It's not a great selling point
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to tell someone, come and join my group. We're all going to make a suicide pack together tonight.
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You know, like, yeah, you have to get them to buy into what's going on. And, yes, but for them,
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for Eden and for David, it wasn't about getting them to buy in, it was about tricking them into
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drinking the wine. What I think is really interesting, and what made me think of this,
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when I found this research about Native American symbolism, is that in some ways, and I know you
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and I are both respectively fangirl and fanboy of Ari Aster. For sure. So in a way, Kusama is telling
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us the entire plot of the movie in the first 90 seconds by saying that there is this trickster
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who's going to try to get people to join them to get people to drink this wine that's poisoned.
377
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,880
But Will kills it. Will Mercy kills it. And by the end, neither Will nor Kira drink the wine.
378
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,480
They fight back and they end up winning. So very much like Ari Aster's Midsummer,
379
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,440
which we'll talk about later this season, they tell you the entire plot in the first 90 seconds.
380
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:08,960
Oh, I love that. Yes, the perfect foreshadowing is going on. It is all revealed, but in a very sort
381
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:17,280
of coded, very subtle way. This is very, very like academic deep. This is stretching a bit,
382
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,800
but I think there is some glity to it. I think so too, because what's interesting is that when
383
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:32,080
they do turn up at the party, immediately post the incident with the coyote, somebody there,
384
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:38,080
I believe it's Eden herself. When she greeps Will, she notices drops of blood on him.
385
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:46,560
And this also is foreshadowing, because things get bloody into the night.
386
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:51,600
Doesn't she try to clean him up? She tries to wipe. So in a way, she tries to wipe away the
387
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:59,600
mercy killing of the trickster. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But also it's a wider pattern of her
388
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:06,560
trying to cover up or wipe away the trace of violence or of grief.
389
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:13,120
Right. And if you've ever tried to clean up blood, it never comes out properly.
390
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:19,520
No. So in that way, her attempt to try to wipe away grief superficially, it's not possible.
391
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,720
It's not possible. And it's so, it's so funny, because she's also donning this,
392
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:31,680
you know, floor length maxi dress that's all white. That's exactly what my next question was.
393
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,800
Oh, Eden is, so Eden is wearing all white. She is much more extravagant than everybody else.
394
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,720
Yes. She is. She looks much more overdressed than everybody else. And I wondered what that
395
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,720
had to do with something. So please go on, because there's something there as well.
396
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:55,280
Yeah, for sure. It almost looked like she showed up for a ceremony of a kind.
397
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:04,640
Everybody else looked very casual, like smart casual, but she was very, in a way, formal,
398
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:09,440
you know, it almost, it wasn't so much like a wedding gown or anything, but it did elicit
399
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:18,080
something to me. It being white, that it was ritualistic and that she was conveying with the color
400
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:26,640
something pristine. Like she, because her character is so much in the pattern of wiping away
401
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:35,040
traces of sadness, wiping away and, you know, working hard to erase any trace of negative emotion.
402
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:41,920
She wants to present herself as a clean slate emotionally. So her white canvas, you know what
403
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,080
I mean? Like it's like she's walking in with a white canvas on her. Like her dress makes
404
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:53,520
her look like she's so pristine. Like she's, she, all she's really done is curated an image of,
405
00:44:55,520 --> 00:45:02,960
of like everything polished away. She just scrubbed the sadness off of herself, but that's just fake,
406
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:08,000
you know, like that's not real. And anybody who's lost somebody, and I'll admit here to my listeners,
407
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,840
I've lost my, my mother 10 years ago to a brain aneurysm. I lost my father
408
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:18,000
a year and a half ago. So, but I mean, I lost my mother very suddenly. I lost my father over a
409
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,200
course of time and it doesn't go away. There, there isn't, there is no wiping it away. And so
410
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:32,720
Eden's wearing the white. It's very striking because it does resonate as somebody trying to
411
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:38,000
come, as you said, like a clean slate. And that's just not possible when somebody you're so close
412
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:49,760
to dies. It's just not. No, exactly. It's not. It's a terrible thing to get invested in psychologically,
413
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:57,840
like this business of pretending that everything is okay when it is not. Yeah. It's actually very,
414
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:06,800
very harmful. It doesn't actually do us any good to put forward this image that appears pristine
415
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:14,000
when it is not. There's no honor in it actually. It's exhausting too. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.
416
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:19,680
And it's not, you know, contrary to what our society or some cultures would like us to think,
417
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:26,720
the expression of sadness and vulnerability is actually, it is really a mark of strength.
418
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:33,920
It is not a mark of weakness. It is not a mark of failure or personal, you know, lacking or deficit.
419
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:42,400
And but somehow we've like put on a pedestal and elevated a mark of strength being that, you know,
420
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:47,600
you just sort of like push through the pain and you don't tell anybody about it and you don't
421
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:53,680
complain and you don't show any of it on yourself. And it's like, that is psychologically harmful.
422
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:58,640
It really is because and this is this is where I can get into the academic part. I actually,
423
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:04,160
I teach my students and I research emotions. And one of the things, one of the emotions I research
424
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:12,400
is sadness. And although researchers are still kind of, we're trying to understand kind of where
425
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:19,600
emotions came from, how we evolved them. But the dominant idea is that we actually evolved emotions
426
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:25,040
in the same way we evolved thumbs and we lost our tails and everything else. And that we evolved
427
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:32,800
the ability, the ability to be sad, because the organisms that were sad would seek solace and would
428
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,680
seek comfort in their group. And those are the ones who survived that would go back to their
429
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:43,040
tribe and that would seek solace and regain their, their, their strength. So the individuals who would
430
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:49,840
ignore their sadness would actually perish and fall away. Wow. That is so interesting.
431
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,480
Evolutionary psychology, it's called. If a lot of people don't like it, I think it's super
432
00:47:54,480 --> 00:48:00,800
interesting. Yes. My students think it's really, really interesting. I can't say whether it
433
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,280
holds too much validity or not, but I teach it in terms of social influence. It is really,
434
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:11,920
really interesting. It really is. And it supports, you know, where we are now, it's good data to have
435
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:18,240
to kind of take stock of where we are now emotionally. I think so too. Yeah, definitely.
436
00:48:18,240 --> 00:48:25,840
I love that so much. So this movie, and you tell me if you think I'm wrong, this movie is
437
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:31,920
essentially one of two halves, the half where we are trying to figure out what's going on,
438
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:38,240
whether or not will is crazy and thinking, thinking that his hosts are, you know, they have
439
00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:43,680
poor intentions for him or whether or not they're actually poor intentions. But there is a little
440
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:51,680
bit in the middle. So we have one, I'd say 40%. We have the first 40%, the last 40%. But there's
441
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:57,760
this middle 20% where Will's is kind of wandering around the house and kind of kind of revisiting
442
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:05,040
his memories. And in doing so, I want to visit this character, Sadie. I feel like you, I feel
443
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:12,240
like you would love Sadie or you do love Sadie. So the first image we have of Sadie. So Sadie is
444
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:20,800
one of the individuals that came back from Mexico with Eden and with David. Yeah, so it's unclear
445
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,320
if she's living with them, but she is walking around just trying to fuck. Like she is, yeah,
446
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:31,840
so our first image of her is she shows up without pants in a doorway looking at Will.
447
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:37,920
What do you make of Sadie? Like she's obviously a seductive symbol and she's wearing far less
448
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,720
than everybody else, even when she puts clothes on. What do you make of Sadie?
449
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:47,040
Yeah, she is a fascinating character for sure. I feel like maybe she's,
450
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:56,000
okay, this is how I would compare her with the rest of the characters. I think that
451
00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:03,200
compared to Will and Eden, for example, Will and Eden are presenting as a civilized kind of yuppie
452
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:14,000
couple. Yes. They're well to do. They're sort of like affluent. And so they project this image
453
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:20,880
that probably is beneficial for the cult to recruit new members. Because they want to project this
454
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:26,720
image of like, look at me, I'm this nice liberal yuppie and like, you know, I mean no harm, you
455
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:33,440
know, so it's like a nice safe image. Whereas I would say Sadie is kind of like,
456
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:42,000
she's sort of like the libidinal underbelly of the cult. I would say that Sadie is like the
457
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:53,760
personification of what a lot of cults or coercive organizations use as a way of luring people in.
458
00:50:54,480 --> 00:51:01,440
So she's like a person, a personification of seduction itself. Okay. As if seduction could be
459
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:07,200
a, you know, an actual character. And so she embodies, I mean, it's almost cartoonish and absurd
460
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:12,800
how sexualized she is. Well, she clearly, she clearly is trying to seduce Will. She is trying
461
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:19,760
to seduce Will. Absolutely. And I think that I think that a lot of cults operate in this way,
462
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,640
where it's not even necessarily that they're trying to sleep with the members. Sometimes that does
463
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:33,440
happen. I think it's something more Freudian than that. Because in Freud's theory, libido and sexuality
464
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:39,840
is not necessarily like actual coitus and people having sex, penetrative sex or anything like that.
465
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:51,920
It can be that. But mainly it is just an abstract kind of desire or the activation of
466
00:51:54,400 --> 00:52:01,920
the self in some way, when the self becomes animated. So it's simply desiring or wanting.
467
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:10,240
That is also sexual. And so I think that what Sadie is doing, she's sort of like the bait in a way.
468
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:17,840
She's sort of what the cult utilizes to activate desire and potential new members,
469
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:26,080
to like spur them into action and liven them, engage them in some way. What's interesting
470
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:31,600
about her too is that she is not conventionally attractive. She's not a Margot Robbie,
471
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:37,200
like she is not, I mean, for me, a Rachel Vice. She's not a Mary Elizabeth Winstead, again.
472
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:46,640
But so listeners, Mary Elizabeth Winstead is at the peak of my celebrity crushes.
473
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:52,640
In any event, she is not any of those things. But she's an attractive woman.
474
00:52:52,640 --> 00:53:00,720
But what makes her extra attractive, even though Will kind of fends her off, is her forthcomingness.
475
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:08,880
Yes, exactly. I mean, at one point she even says, I mean, later down into the film, but she does just
476
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:15,280
fully proposition Will to have sex then and there. Yeah. And they're also, they also play a game where
477
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:22,720
like the point of the game is to get different people in the group who are undecided to become
478
00:53:22,720 --> 00:53:27,680
sexually aroused. Oh, yeah. Because like the dude who's just kind of like a regular dude,
479
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:34,080
he's kind of overweight. Like he, I think the attractive one of the attractive women in the
480
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:40,480
group says she wants to kiss him. And it becomes like, Oh, maybe this, this, this organization
481
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:48,320
has something going on because this kind of, this kind of chubby, flubby dude can, can hook.
482
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:56,160
Well, yeah. But I mean, I mean, be objective. I would not kidding. Be objective.
483
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,320
I'm kidding. I'm kidding. The girl that said she wanted to kiss the chubby,
484
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:06,960
flubby dude was more attractive than chubby, flubby. True. Yes. Yeah. So, yes. Yeah. So,
485
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:11,920
and for those of you who are fans of the comedy show community, she was in the comedy show community
486
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:17,200
for a hot second. Yeah. Yeah. She was, she was in the wine tasting episode.
487
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:27,440
Spotted. Yeah. Yeah. In any event, there are throughout the movie, there are, there are
488
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:33,840
episodes of strange attraction. Sadie presents one and a couple of the characters, the main
489
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:41,760
characters present others. Yes. And I would say actually, because there is another friend that's
490
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:51,440
there, Pruitt. And I think that Pruitt being, you know, David and Eden's friend also from this
491
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:57,680
cult, from this place in Mexico, he's come over as well. This is the first time he's meeting all
492
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:03,680
of the friend group. And for those who haven't seen the movie is the guy that you
493
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:12,080
want. If you want a anonymous serial killer type vibe, he is, I mean, he's the guy who was
494
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:19,040
in Zodiac. He was the prime suspect in Zodiac. Yeah. He's in several of those movies and he's
495
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,280
a fantastic, I forget his name. I'm not throwing him justice, but he's a fantastic actor.
496
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:30,720
John Carrol Lynch. Thank you so much. Yeah. He is wonderful in this movie and in Zodiac.
497
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:36,240
Oh, he is superb. I really like this actor as well. He's very convincing, very,
498
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:44,080
very imposing character. He's got a great physicality about him. He's a big guy. He's a big guy,
499
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:49,920
definitely. And there's something unknowable about him. He's sort of like, he's sort of a weird,
500
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:54,880
like black box. You don't really know what you're dealing with. He's sort of an unknown
501
00:55:54,880 --> 00:56:02,560
quantity, which works really well in this character. For sure. Because I think that Pruitt is, okay,
502
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:11,760
so the way that Sadie is the kind of sex hook of the cult, in a sense, where she is being utilized
503
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:22,560
as someone who could potentially recruit, I think that in true Freudian form, it seems as though
504
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:30,880
this cult has like a double act going on between sex and violence. Because Sadie is the sex element,
505
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:38,240
and I think Pruitt is the thuggish guy who is like lurking in the corner. And, you know,
506
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:42,000
if you don't, if you don't follow the rules, he'll fucking like break your knees, you know what I
507
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,280
mean? Well, he was the dude who, his role was he joined the cult because he killed his wife on
508
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,480
quote, on quote, accident. Like I forget what he did, but it was an accident. Is that right?
509
00:56:54,480 --> 00:57:01,760
Yes. Yes. That's right. And then when the character who was uncomfortable with the snuff film I
510
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:07,920
mentioned earlier, left, he followed her outside. And it's never clear whether or not she leaves
511
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:15,600
safely. Exactly. Like, yeah, such a weird thing. But no, I think I think it's brilliant because I
512
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:24,160
think the guy who plays Pruitt, like he is the perfect person to play almost like we talked about
513
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:30,880
a blank slate, he's almost like a black slate. He is somebody who in every scene he's in, there is
514
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:37,280
a danger of something going awry. So we are left to wonder what he did with the woman who wanted
515
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:46,240
to leave when she was uncomfortable. So he is very imposing. He is very much a harbinger of
516
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:51,680
negativity and harm and death. And I think he plays an excellent role in this movie.
517
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:58,880
Absolutely. Yeah, his character is very ominous. But it's like, it makes sense,
518
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:07,440
you know, in terms of the operations of the cult to have those two aspects represented alongside
519
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:14,240
the nice polite image of David and Eden. So you need the enforcer. You need the enforcer. You need
520
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:20,880
the enforcer. I think David and Eden are the nice face that gets presented to the world,
521
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:31,440
that kind of HR face or PR face of the cult. Whereas Pruitt and Sadie, they're the kind of
522
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:42,000
unconscious, sinister, insidious aspects of the cult. But they're operating on those two kind
523
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:53,200
of like twin aspects of sex and violence. So would you say that Eden and David are the ego
524
00:58:53,200 --> 00:59:02,320
and Pruitt and Sadie are the id? I would say that Sadie is the id, but Pruitt is the super ego.
525
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:09,040
Oh, see, I was beating you, but now I'm curious. Go on. Because Sadie is pure impulse. She's just
526
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:17,120
unadulterated, uncurated, just like constant libido, like it's just like a fountain of
527
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:22,720
libido nonstop. That's pure id. Yeah, she's just trying to fuck. She's just trying to fuck. And
528
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:30,880
I think Pruitt is the super ego of the cult in the sense of the internalized authority
529
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:40,560
of the organization. So so Pruitt is the reality of the organization. He is the despite the fact
530
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:46,880
sorry, go on. Sorry, if I just may, I think what I mean by that is when I say when I say
531
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:55,520
super ego, what I mean by that is for Freud, the super ego is actually not a really a legitimate
532
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:03,200
force. There is, of course, a legitimate authority in the outside world, which is the law and,
533
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:08,400
you know, the rules of a household, traffic law, whatever it may be, you know, like you're allowed
534
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:13,600
and not allowed to do. Those things are legitimate. Sure. What this, what the super ego is, is an
535
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:22,320
internalized version of authority, which becomes obscene. And it actually is like the cop in your
536
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,280
head that's like constantly striking you down and you're inner critic and all that stuff.
537
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:35,840
That is what the super ego is actually a very obscene figure in the psyche. It is very punitive.
538
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:44,480
It is very aggressive. And what it seeks to do is to constantly put put in line the constant flow
539
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:51,120
of desire. And it's regulated. It's it's regulating the subject constantly. And it's
540
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:56,960
the super ego rules and punishing. It's very punishing. It can be very violent as well.
541
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:03,440
The super ego is the traffic cop of the subconscious. Yes, well said. Yes. Okay. Okay. So I can see how
542
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:10,160
prude takes that position then because even when he's not speaking, he has a unspoken influence
543
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:16,640
on other people on the group. Yes, exactly. Yes, he does have that influence. And the fact that he's
544
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:21,760
also had, you know, brushed with the law, he's, you know, committed, I mean, a murder whether or
545
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,480
not it was intentional, you know, whatever, but he did actually kill someone. And then he, he did
546
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:33,600
serve time in jail as well. The fact that he's had that connection with the justice system, I think
547
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:41,520
also further solidifies him as a super ego, because he's sort of like, maybe he's even taken on aspects,
548
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:48,480
I would say illegitimate aspects of the punitary system. But the point is, is that he's also
549
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:54,320
watchdog, like he's constantly surveilling everybody in there to make sure they stay in line. Yes,
550
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:59,440
to make sure they stay in line. When someone tries to get away, we're not sure whether she actually
551
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:04,320
got away, you know, like the impulse of that woman had to leave after the video was shown.
552
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:10,800
That is a legitimate impulse, you know, to survival instinct. But Pruitt, as I think the super ego of
553
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,800
the movie, he follows her outside. I mean, he, it's more like he has to move his car or something.
554
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:23,760
But we are, we do see him talking to her for a bit. And we don't really know, like, did she get away?
555
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:29,680
Or did he do something to her? Like, it's, it's unclear. So, okay, so here, here is our, our
556
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:37,280
here's our, our one or zero decision. I think she got away. I think she got, I think, what do you
557
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:44,400
think? I think she got out. I think that's probably a safe bet. It makes you feel, if it actually
558
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:49,680
feel warm and fuzzy to think that she got out. I know, because she was actually a really nice woman.
559
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,920
She was, you know what it is? She was an academic. She was. She was an academic.
560
01:02:53,920 --> 01:03:00,320
Yeah. So, so, so I see part of myself in her and she was, she was being very empirical and going,
561
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:06,080
this is fucked up and I'm leaving. So she left. And I was like, oh, that's what I would do. So,
562
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:11,440
I don't, I hope she got away and I hope pro didn't kill her because fuck Pruitt. But all the same,
563
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:16,320
I like to think that she got away. You know what, you're probably right that she did get away because
564
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:22,800
a final guess does appear later on. And if some, if her body was left somewhere out there, he would
565
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:30,960
have seen that. So. Oh, thank you. Thank you for, for patronizing my, my hope about this academic
566
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,840
getting away. Although I will say she was a bit of a killjoy. She, the one who got away was a bit
567
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:43,520
of a killjoy because when she got away, she, she was, she didn't leave during like the death tape
568
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:48,720
and everything else. She left when one person said they wanted to kiss another person. That's when
569
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:55,600
she decided to go. That's, oh, that's true. You are right. Yeah. So she's like, I get a bit of a
570
01:03:55,600 --> 01:04:02,080
prude. Bit of a prude. Okay. She is a tenured professor though. That's, you know, she's got to
571
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:07,200
keep that for that reputation in check. Well, I mean, God help me when I get tenure then.
572
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,480
All right. So we've got, we've got the first half. We've got the middle with,
573
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:19,200
with Sadie and Pruitt. Okay. So let's move to the end. So the end is where all the action occurs.
574
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:28,240
Again, I'm going to give one last spoiler alert. So it is a cult. They try to kill everybody in
575
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:33,680
the group to try to ascend to the next level because of whatever reason they have.
576
01:04:36,240 --> 01:04:42,240
What did you think of the end? I absolutely love the end of this movie. I love that it ends up,
577
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:48,320
that Will ends up being correct, that there is something awry. I love that it ends up being
578
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:55,520
as intense as it is, as it is. What do you think? Yeah, I love the end as well because
579
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:03,840
that's when it really kicks into the horror and thriller aspects. It's such a contrast to
580
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:09,600
everything that's happened up to that point where the violence fully like kicks off and,
581
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:17,120
and, you know, Will very abruptly like prevents everyone from drinking the wine when there's
582
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:25,520
the toast happening. So he like, he, he messes up their entire plan. Well, there's, there's like a
583
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:30,080
three, well, not even three, man. I would say a 60 second period in the movie that's the climax
584
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:34,800
of the movie where Will stops everybody from drinking wine and we don't know what's going on.
585
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:39,360
That is the key part of the movie. And then we find out what's going on that they are actually
586
01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:44,080
trying to poison everybody and bring them into the cult and kill them and, and have them ascend.
587
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:51,600
That 60 seconds is the movie. That's it. Yeah, because inside the void of not being sure what's
588
01:05:51,600 --> 01:06:00,720
really going on is a mix of emotions. Like we know we sense danger. We sense something is off,
589
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:06,080
but you can't prove it. And he's already kind of like aired his suspicion and he's been wrong.
590
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:13,520
So, you know, he, he sort of like, they're looking at him like he, he's the crazy one. And, you know,
591
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:24,160
he's been inappropriate. You're right. It's inside that like prolonged scene where we're not really
592
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:29,920
sure what's going on. Yes. A lot of the suspense of the film actually lives because also I think
593
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:36,880
that Will has, I think that he does have some kind of PTSD to do with his son. Of course. Of course.
594
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:43,600
You know, and I think that the film invites us to think that he's an unreliable narrator that maybe
595
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:50,800
he's hyper vigilant and he, you know, his own unhealed trauma is causing him to see danger where
596
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:59,040
it doesn't actually exist. So this, this sort of like uneven perception of what these people are
597
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:06,240
doing, the film seen through the eyes of Will, who's a, you know, a trauma sufferer. Right. So there is,
598
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:10,800
there is another movie and I would have bet you would have seen this movie. There's another movie
599
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:18,400
that is almost like a partner film to this, to, to the invitation where it goes in different
600
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:23,920
direction. There's a movie called They Look Like People. Have you seen it? No, I haven't seen it.
601
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:28,240
So there's another, so I'm going to ruin the ending for everybody. So turn it off if, if you
602
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:34,400
haven't seen The Look Like People. It is a much, I would say even as small a, a distribution,
603
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:39,040
as the invitation got, they look like people got even smaller distribution.
604
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:44,480
But it's a very similar idea in that the main character who has psychological problems because
605
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:48,880
of PTSD wonders if there are individuals who have something out for them, whether or not
606
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:55,920
they do or not. And at the end, they realize, no, it's all in their head. It is actually,
607
01:07:55,920 --> 01:08:01,440
it's a terrifying movie. Like the dread built throughout the movie. It's a very good movie.
608
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:11,520
But the end is no, he has psychological problems. At the end of this, no, they're, they actually
609
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:18,800
mean to kill them. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And, but you, and you're right. Like we don't actually
610
01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:25,600
come to that in a straightforward path. There's a lot of self questioning going on. It kind of
611
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:32,720
puts us, because we're identifying with Will's gaze in a sense, what puts us on a path, this kind of
612
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:41,120
very like uneven path of self doubt, because these people are acting weird. But is it just
613
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,120
because they're a bit eccentric and like, you know, is it just because they're kind of like
614
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:51,520
weird out of touch yuppies or is it, or is there something else going on? You know, like
615
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:56,240
you can't really tell. It's so, it's so frustrating. So when it all comes to a head,
616
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:02,720
and then, you know, our literal weapons are pulled out and people are getting shot around this table.
617
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:09,680
Oh yeah. I mean, the character that you mentioned earlier, who just shows up just fucking get shot.
618
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:15,040
Like he's, if I remember, he shows up and he's like, Hey, I'm here. And we're like, Oh, Will's crazy.
619
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:24,400
Oh wait, no, he's not. He got you. Yeah, no, I'm 100% in your corner on that is in the last 10
620
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:29,920
minutes, the movie goes completely batch it and it's wonderful because it really is. It's almost
621
01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:38,000
a release for the audience. Yes, it is cathartic because there's been so much tension and suspense
622
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:43,680
built up. And we're so unsure about people's motivations that to finally have an outbreak
623
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:48,320
of violence as crazy as that sounds. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because you know what
624
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:54,160
it is. It's because Kassama gives us an answer. There's so many movies and I appreciate these
625
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:59,440
movies, the ones where they allow the audience to interpret the ending. I can appreciate that.
626
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:03,520
Last week we talked about it follows and the I appreciate that ending where you can interpret
627
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:10,720
the ending. At the end of this film, there is no interpretation. You know what happens. You know
628
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:17,680
what's going on and I can very much appreciate that. Yes, well said. You're right. It falls into a kind of
629
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:26,720
I guess like a class of movies where there is a satisfaction in finding out the answer, you know?
630
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:33,760
Yeah, for sure. And also just the contrast of those final minutes of the invitation where it is
631
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:42,000
so bloody and gory and you see Eden shot in the stomach and like her pristine white dress is like
632
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:48,240
slowly soaked from the center. So did you did you find that satisfying or did you find it sad?
633
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:55,840
Well, with the thing with Eden, I found and we haven't even talked about her name, by the way.
634
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:02,640
I know, right? Like even just her name, the fact that it refers to the biblical place of paradise.
635
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:09,920
Yeah. And you know, like this perfect garden where everything is like amazing and you want
636
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:15,760
for nothing. Well, I think that is just the image that she's trying to portray. Like 100%.
637
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:23,680
This wonderful like La La land where like, oh my god, like, you know, we've wiped all our tears away.
638
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:29,440
We've like scrubbed all the blood off the walls and we're perfect, you know? And what happened to
639
01:11:29,440 --> 01:11:34,480
Eden? What happened? Well, she ate the she ate from the tree of knowledge. She ate from the
640
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:39,840
tree of knowledge. Exactly. And they fell. And they fell. And so it's like, there's a lot of
641
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:50,240
pressure on the woman to not be the the holder of divine knowledge. And yet she does exactly that.
642
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:58,160
And that seems to be the fall of all humanity. So I think that ultimately for Eden, yes, it is
643
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:03,680
extremely sad when she gets shot, you know, and she's also shot in her in her womb, like in her,
644
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:10,400
in her stomach, like, which is the place of pain for her, I think, unhealed pain of losing her
645
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:17,760
child. Exactly. And so when you see this blood, like, you know, just kind of like expanding on her
646
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:24,480
abdomen as she's bleeding, I think that, yes, it's extremely tragic because I don't think she ever
647
01:12:24,480 --> 01:12:30,480
was that menacing. She just fallen fallen with really the wrong people. 100%. She wasn't like,
648
01:12:30,480 --> 01:12:35,680
she wasn't a villain in that sense. She just got tricked. But I think that seeing her like that,
649
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:42,000
especially in that white dress getting soiled, I think in in some way, in a psychoanalytic sense,
650
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:48,480
purely in an abstract way, that is actually a good ending for someone who's tried so hard to run away
651
01:12:48,480 --> 01:12:53,600
from their emotions. Well, as soon as she as soon as she's out in the stomach, as soon as she takes
652
01:12:53,600 --> 01:13:01,200
the bullet right in the womb, she comes back to reality and she recognizes what she's experienced.
653
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:08,080
Because when she shot the stomach, I think the next scene she's in, she has a conversation with Will
654
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:14,800
as she's dying. But she recognizes what she's tried to suppress. So something about opening up her
655
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:21,920
womb, something about revealing what she's tried to suppress forces her to confront
656
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:29,120
everything she's been afraid of. Yes, exactly. That's exactly right. So if we if we take it to mean
657
01:13:29,680 --> 01:13:37,680
purely in an allegorical or symbolic sense, I think that that is a good place to to emerge
658
01:13:39,040 --> 01:13:44,640
from this kind of like weird spell that's that's kind of had a hold on her all this time.
659
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:51,120
Very weakly to like you're you're never throughout the film, you're never convinced of Eden's
660
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:58,720
piety. She's never a true believer. And you can see in her eyes, you can see in her eyes, you can see
661
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:06,400
in her eyes. Yeah, she doesn't have that faith. She's sort of just playing along. I think she just
662
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:14,320
I think she wants to have she what she wants desperately is to have a routine, like some kind
663
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:19,520
of something that distracts her from her pain. I think she wants anything that would give her
664
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:25,920
catharsis. Anything that will take the pain away from her having lost a child. Yeah, will she will
665
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:32,320
go to that which is why she gravitated towards David. If there if there is a villain of the movie,
666
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:40,240
it's David because because Eden is kind of partnered with David. But you can tell the Eden's never
667
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:48,080
bought into what David is saying. David is a full on the invitation guy, like he he is the driving
668
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:57,520
force between the two of them. But but Eden, I think that she still has an idea for what
669
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:04,400
for what paradise might be. Unfortunately for her, her paradise was taken from her when when her
670
01:15:04,400 --> 01:15:11,040
child was killed. Oh, that is such a good way to put it. Yeah, you're right. She knew heaven on
671
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:18,080
earth when she had her kid. And it was taken away from her. And the only and the only logical
672
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:23,600
conclusion for her once her heaven was taken was for her to go as well. Oh my god, that is so sad.
673
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:29,760
It's but I mean, when you think about it that way, it makes sense, right? Like, Eden, Eden was always
674
01:15:29,760 --> 01:15:35,200
destined once her child died. She was always destined to die herself. Yeah, you're right.
675
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:41,600
Like a piece of her died that could never be resurrected. So correct. Yeah. So you're right.
676
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:46,880
It makes perfect sense when you look at it that way, why she would end up with some crank like David.
677
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:55,760
Who's selling her crank? He's selling her this snake oil about reuniting.
678
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:05,520
David is a crank. All right. So yeah, well, so we've got Eden's death. So the only thing to cover
679
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:13,120
now is the very, very end, which I argue for those again, if you haven't seen it, you need to see
680
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:19,280
this movie before I talk about how this movie ends, you need to go see it. I say this film and the
681
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:27,600
ending of this movie is the best ending to a horror movie in the last 20 years other than the mist.
682
01:16:28,960 --> 01:16:34,320
So when Will and Kira go outside the end of the movie, after all the carnage, after all the blood
683
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:40,080
shed, all those who were supposed to die have died, all those who have tried to kill, those have died.
684
01:16:40,080 --> 01:16:46,960
Will and Kira are kind of, they're home free. They go out back and they see that there are red lights
685
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:54,000
appearing all over Los Angeles. They're seeing all over the valley. They see that there are many people
686
01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:02,000
who are buying into the invitation. And in the distance you hear ambulance sirens, you hear
687
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:06,400
fire sirens. So clearly this has gone beyond just what we've been watching. What do you make of that
688
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:13,760
ending? Oh my gosh, I'm so with you when you say that it's one of the most effective horror endings
689
01:17:13,760 --> 01:17:20,880
in quite a while because you're right. Like it's this realization, you know, when obviously when
690
01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:27,200
Will and his girlfriend Kira, they managed to escape all of this horror and they come out alive.
691
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:34,800
When they gaze into the Hollywood Hills and they start to see that sign that literally the same
692
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:42,640
thing has gone on in other houses. And it's just been this mass effect of people falling for the
693
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:48,160
scam and people are like literally in suicide packs willingly or unwittingly, you know.
694
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:58,800
When they, I think the realization of that is the horror effect for me is the knowledge that
695
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:05,600
what the horror I've just come out of what I what I very narrowly escaped that almost
696
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:15,040
fucking killed me. Now I'm seeing that this was not just an isolated incident. One crazy house
697
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:23,120
doing some weird shit. It's literally like this is some kind of mind virus that there's a collectivist
698
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:29,120
element to this, you know, and there is something to be said there is something to be said in terms
699
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:37,120
of that and what we're experiencing at least in the US and we see in the UK or the UK set that a bit
700
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:48,160
in terms of that but in terms of disinformation and the ideas that are pervading politics these days.
701
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:55,680
We see that those red lights are on people are buying into it. Yeah, exactly. That's the
702
01:18:55,680 --> 01:19:02,320
craze that that is actually the scariest thing is you think, oh, I just survived one freak incident
703
01:19:02,960 --> 01:19:09,280
to then look out and see, oh, shit, no, this this is not this was not not a one time thing.
704
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:16,800
This is an orchestrated incident that is occurring across the city, maybe the country. Yes. And it's
705
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:25,120
like to see that I think it's the collectivist element. It's the as you say, the the danger of
706
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:32,080
misinformation and like really dodgy ideologies that are just like spreading like wildfire.
707
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:40,080
Absolutely. And that so many people are getting taken in. I mean, I kept I know that this movie
708
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:47,520
is dealing with one specific like fictitious cult, but I do think that we are definitely in an age
709
01:19:48,880 --> 01:19:56,400
where there does seem to be like a prevalence of scam artists. You know, we see people like,
710
01:19:56,400 --> 01:20:01,040
you know, the Tinder Swindler and the guy who organized the fire festival and like
711
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:07,360
Oh, yeah, Elizabeth Holmes and all these scammers and liars and deceitful people.
712
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:13,040
I mean, some are literal cult leaders as well. And we've seen so many cults like this, Nixxiom,
713
01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:18,400
for example, you know, the leader of that cult, Keith Reneary, I mean, he's done some really
714
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:25,520
dodgy shit. So the point being that they're all these characters are thriving in this time because
715
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:33,920
they have access to information at a much more rapid rate. They're able to influence, you know,
716
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:38,640
they're they have a capacity to capture the imagination of their audience. Maybe they're
717
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:43,840
very charismatic as a lot of these cult leaders are. And so it just I think that the ripple
718
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:50,640
effect is just much larger. Oh, yeah, the past for sure. I think what this movie captures,
719
01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:57,280
and this movie count in 2015, so we're well before COVID-19, we're well, well, not well before, but
720
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:06,560
we are just before the the Trump presidency and the age of disinformation. But it shows how
721
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:14,320
how readily some people are willing to buy into disinformation. Yes, if it helps them feel some
722
01:21:14,320 --> 01:21:20,800
sort of catharsis or it helps them to reconcile their experience with the rest of the world, if
723
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:25,760
it helps them to to make sense of what's going on around them, they're more than just the
724
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:31,840
going on around them, they're more than happy to buy into something that has no basis in reality
725
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:40,160
to their own detriment to their own detriment. Yeah, so I think for me, watching that final scene,
726
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:50,480
what's really effective about it is I'm actually reminded of a song lyric from David Bowie.
727
01:21:50,480 --> 01:22:00,720
Oh, please do. In his song, Under Pressure, he says, it's the, sorry, it's the terror of
728
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:07,360
knowing what this world is about. And just that line, it's very simple. It's my favorite song ever.
729
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:13,840
Oh my gosh, really? Yeah, it's my favorite. So I'm not a major David Bowie fan, and I am a semi
730
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:20,240
major Queen fan, but that is not, but that is my favorite song ever. Oh, such a banger. I love
731
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:27,040
that song so much. But yeah, I mean, it's just the realization that the thing that you thought was
732
01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:34,880
just your own personal, like individual struggle is actually refracted and ricocheted so many times
733
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:42,240
across society. And it is, it is actually like a mass event, you know, it's something that is
734
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:49,360
reflected on a much wider scale. So that actually becomes more terrifying, because how do you fight
735
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:57,200
that? How do you fight something that is ongoing, like this, this, this repeated event that is
736
01:22:57,200 --> 01:23:03,040
multiplied, you know, in its, in its, you know, in its tragedy. Well, I think the hope, I think
737
01:23:03,040 --> 01:23:10,160
the hope comes from the idea that they survived and they came out on the other side. So there must
738
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:14,960
be others who are going to survive and come out on the other side. The problem is that there are
739
01:23:14,960 --> 01:23:20,880
individuals who bought into this ideology and who are going to take others with them. And that there
740
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:27,120
there is going to be mass violence because of the degree to which this ideology is spread.
741
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:34,800
Exactly. And the very fact that even though yes, there are survivors, it's the horror of
742
01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:43,680
knowing that this incident is now part of the fabric of society, because it has repeated so many
743
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:49,280
times. Yeah. Yeah. So that it says something about the reality they're living in that people are so,
744
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:56,080
you know, whether consciously or not, are, are fragile. They're actually quite vulnerable
745
01:23:56,640 --> 01:24:02,000
to getting tricked and trapped by these people. We like to think as humans, we like to think that
746
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:09,680
we are impervious to persuasion and pervious to having our minds messed with. But as a researcher
747
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:16,160
of communication and social influence, influence more generally, I can tell you we are not, we are
748
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:24,480
just mammals. Our brains are just biology and chemistry and they are susceptible to manipulation
749
01:24:24,480 --> 01:24:29,280
in the same way that anything else is. So this movie really, this movie really speaks to me in
750
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:33,840
the same way that my research speaks to me, like research on radicalization, research on
751
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:42,400
cults, research on violence. It speaks to me in a way that it shows how individuals who think that
752
01:24:42,400 --> 01:24:48,080
they are protected from being manipulated are actually vulnerable in ways they wouldn't expect.
753
01:24:48,960 --> 01:24:55,680
Well said. Yes. So with that, with that, with that really bright note, Mary,
754
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:03,040
we have come to the end of the invitation. I feel as though I'm depriving my audience of not
755
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:06,880
having you again this series, but I think there's going to be a second series, so we will have you
756
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:13,600
back. Definitely. I'd love to come back in season two. So let me, let me ask you again, we said in
757
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:19,760
the first thing, but please tell everybody where they can find your musings on Freud, on Young,
758
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:24,960
if you're going to get into Young and everything else. I would recommend that everybody find Mary
759
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:30,240
Wilde on Patreon. First of all, she is a fantastic follow. Please follow her on Patreon, but everywhere
760
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:36,480
else, Mary, where can they find you? Thank you so much. That's so kind of you to say. Yeah, definitely
761
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:42,480
Patreon is the place where I produce the most content. That's patreon.com slash Mary Wilde.
762
01:25:42,480 --> 01:25:49,440
You can also follow me on Twitter and Instagram. My handle is psychstar on both platforms.
763
01:25:49,440 --> 01:25:55,680
And let me jump in psychstar without an H. It's P S Y C S T A R on both platforms.
764
01:25:55,680 --> 01:26:00,880
That's correct. Yeah, definitely follow if you are a student or somebody who's interested in
765
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:08,480
psychology and or horror. I'd say Mary is the person to follow. So thank you so much.
766
01:26:08,480 --> 01:26:14,320
Now, Mary, this has been fantastic. I'm psyched that you chose the invitation because you are the
767
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:19,200
person to talk to about this, but I'm also sad because there are several other films that you
768
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:24,480
would have fantastic input on, but we will have you back again. For sure. I will be back. Definitely.
769
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:29,040
Thank you so much, Kurt. No, fantastic. And I'm looking forward to be on your podcast again soon
770
01:26:29,040 --> 01:26:34,960
too. Yes, for sure. I mean, we've already covered so much ground on my Patreon and I look forward
771
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:41,840
to bringing you back for sure. We will cover some more ground, I promise. Definitely. Thank you so
772
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:48,800
much, Mary. Thank you. As always, it's been wonderful having Mary Wilde here with me to talk
773
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:54,720
about a movie. It'll be good to have her again next season. But now we shift gears to a different
774
01:26:54,720 --> 01:27:00,320
tone of conversation. As I noted in the first part of the episode, I'd hope to get a clinical
775
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:05,840
psychologist who looks at cults to join me today, but unfortunately due to craziness in his work,
776
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:14,000
that wasn't able to happen. But I have the next best threat next best thing. I have my my brother
777
01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:19,120
is going to be joining me. And I say it's the next best thing because my brother is my kindred
778
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:24,640
spirit in our love for movies. We love going to the movies and part of my reason for doing this
779
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:29,280
podcast and part of my love for horror movies more generally is because of what my brother and I
780
01:27:29,280 --> 01:27:35,040
have enjoyed growing up. So he'll be joining a couple of times this season, starting with this
781
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:40,320
episode. Now, he's never seen the invitation before just the other day. So we'll be getting a fresh
782
01:27:40,320 --> 01:27:45,520
perspective on the invitation. And I'm proud to say that he did a little bit of homework.
783
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:50,160
So without further ado, let me jump into the second part of the episode where my brother
784
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:54,640
Eric Braddock joins me to talk about his perceptions of the invitation.
785
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:04,960
And welcome back to dark overtones number 102. And this is the first episode, the invitation
786
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:11,200
episode where we are going to have just one of my bros, one of my friends, one of my colleagues,
787
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:17,520
come on and just shoot the shit about the movie. I did have a friend who was an expert in psychology,
788
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:23,680
but I got the next best thing. I got my brother who is as big a fan, if not a bigger fan of movies
789
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:28,800
than I am. We've been going to the movies since we were little kids, we wandered around the video
790
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:33,920
store when we were tiny. So this will go just as well, if not better than we have the psych expert.
791
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:37,440
This is Eric Braddock, artist extraordinaire, Eric, what up?
792
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:43,680
Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah, dude, it'll be fun. It'll be fun. And I apologize in advance,
793
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:50,560
but unfortunately, all male Braddock sound exactly the same. So it's going to sound like
794
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:55,760
double. My dad was very much the same way too. So if I apologize in advance and Eric,
795
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:59,200
just talk normally, it's fine. We'll get it worked out. We'll figure it out.
796
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:07,520
Yeah. So we're kind of lucky here because you were a fill in. You had never seen the invitation,
797
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:13,600
right? Yeah, I kind of went in completely blank. I didn't even watch the trailer. I just wanted
798
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:19,680
to make sure that I had the right movie. Well, yeah, because there was the 2022 invitation,
799
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:22,480
I think, which a lot of people screw it up. They think that's the movie. I don't even know what
800
01:29:22,480 --> 01:29:26,160
it's about. I think we were we were bullshit and say that's about vampires, right?
801
01:29:26,160 --> 01:29:31,280
Yeah. When I when I did the search, I wanted to make sure that I had the right one. And when I
802
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:38,240
read a brief synopsis, I knowing your kind of flavor of horror movies, I figured right. So
803
01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:43,920
well, yeah, I went in completely blind and recognize some of the cast, which is, you know,
804
01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:48,640
a lot of a lot of familiar faces from various different films and different horror films and
805
01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:52,320
TV shows. So it was really cool. Hold up. Who did you recognize? Because when I saw it the
806
01:29:52,320 --> 01:29:57,280
first time, I noticed I think his name, Mary in the first segment mentioned, I think his name is
807
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:04,240
Logan Marshall Green, the main character. He was in member devil that we're the elevator. Yeah.
808
01:30:04,240 --> 01:30:08,800
Yeah. And like Shyamalan movie. Did you recognize Dario Naharis?
809
01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:15,600
Yeah, I did. I did recognize him, except I recognized him more from the haunting of Hill
810
01:30:15,600 --> 01:30:20,320
House. Oh, he was in that. You're right. He was in that. I forgot about that. I forgot about that.
811
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:24,000
And then who else? I don't know. I wasn't really familiar with the cast. The only one,
812
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:28,560
the only one that I really knew, and this is a deep cut and you'll know it when I say it. But
813
01:30:29,360 --> 01:30:33,440
I forget the character's name and we can we can discuss spoilers, by the way, because Mary and
814
01:30:33,440 --> 01:30:39,280
I have already gone into detail. But the character who dies first, who drinks the poison, she was
815
01:30:39,280 --> 01:30:46,960
in community. She was the woman who was in the wine tasting class with Pierce and Pierce,
816
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:51,040
what Pierce wants to get with her. That's kind of a deep cut. But that's the one I recognize.
817
01:30:51,040 --> 01:30:55,200
I did not pick that up. However, there was one of the characters. It was the
818
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:03,280
friend who his girlfriend couldn't make it, I think the one that he bit of the joker.
819
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:09,920
He is actually a comedian. Oh, is he? Yeah. The one who weirdly like gets put in that.
820
01:31:09,920 --> 01:31:15,120
Jeremy Larson, I think the bigger guy, the kind of the more hefty guy. Yeah, the one who
821
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:19,920
who like one of the hot women is like, I want to make out with that guy. And I was like, get out
822
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:24,000
of here with that shit. Like there's no way that would be the thing. But I think I know you're
823
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:29,360
talking I did not recognize him at all. I had no idea who that was. But okay, so you went into
824
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:33,440
a blind, which is the best way to go into it. And that's the way I went into it. When I saw it the
825
01:31:33,440 --> 01:31:39,280
first time, I think I saw it the first time I was just kind of cruising Netflix and saw was kind of
826
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:45,280
my jam. What did you do? What generally? What do you think of it? Yeah, it was a it was an interesting
827
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:52,160
horror movie. I wasn't sure what kind if there was going to be any kind of supernatural elements
828
01:31:52,160 --> 01:32:00,880
going in. So watching the events play out was I was kind of anticipating something. So I was
829
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:08,160
kind of already on edge, I guess. But you know, there is something to be said where sometimes
830
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:17,760
the best horror movie is just people. Yeah. So that was kind of an interesting take that I
831
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:23,520
realized as the movie progressed. So a lot of people talked about and the one of the the podcast
832
01:32:23,520 --> 01:32:27,520
that turned me on to this this movie. And I mentioned a lot is called the evolution of horror. And
833
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:33,920
they talk about the invitation on it. And they talk about it. The horror is really born from
834
01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:37,760
that it's all awkward to sit around the dinner table with people and everybody's afraid to
835
01:32:37,760 --> 01:32:41,840
speak up and just leave. And that's what makes you that's not what really scared me that makes
836
01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:46,800
you uncomfortable. That's not really what scared me. I didn't know if all hell was going to break
837
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:53,760
loose at the end like it did. Yeah, it's interesting how, you know, the tension ramps up slowly over
838
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:59,760
the course of the film. And when once, you know, events start to reach its like climaxes when it
839
01:32:59,760 --> 01:33:07,680
really just kind of instantaneously takes off with itself. And, you know, I think it was, you
840
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:12,880
know, there's some interesting kind of thoughts and parallels to what the I think the characters
841
01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:18,800
had experienced that I was also experiencing while watching it. So like what what do you mean?
842
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:27,600
Oh, just thinking like, you know, they they were all waiting for people to show up. And so in a
843
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:33,600
similar sense, I was waiting for kind of some of the more psychological horror elements to kind
844
01:33:33,600 --> 01:33:39,200
of begin. And when it wasn't happening, I was kind of it was kind of raising my anxiety a little bit
845
01:33:39,200 --> 01:33:44,320
because I was waiting for things to take place. And they had so was this kind of, you know,
846
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:48,960
the main character will having he was, you know, starting to think
847
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:54,960
growing a little paranoid and starting to think about, you know, things that might
848
01:33:54,960 --> 01:33:58,720
not have been actually been happening. I was experiencing something similar to that.
849
01:33:59,280 --> 01:34:04,480
Yeah. Well, you said you said you saw other little parallels in the movie too before we
850
01:34:04,480 --> 01:34:08,720
started recording like, give me one of the parallels that you saw like one of the themes
851
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:11,360
you saw in the movie that that that played out for you.
852
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:18,720
It will you mean like with other other films or whatever like you said, you said you saw parallels
853
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:23,520
with other films and you also said you did a little homework, which I fucking love that you
854
01:34:23,520 --> 01:34:29,120
did a little homework into the names. And actually, because you haven't you haven't listened to it yet,
855
01:34:29,120 --> 01:34:35,440
obviously, Mary and I talked quite a bit about some of the names in the movie like Eden, obviously,
856
01:34:35,440 --> 01:34:39,920
like because she thinks that or she's pretending that her entire life is, you know, perfect,
857
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:45,840
even though it's clearly not. And her name means paradise, you know, right. Yeah, no, I mean, the
858
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:52,960
parallels that I was, you know, kind of gleaming were similar to move like in like mid summer,
859
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:57,680
there's a theme of loss and the struggle through grief. And to a certain extent,
860
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:07,440
the exploitation of vulnerability of people. And so with the, you know, that could come combined
861
01:35:07,440 --> 01:35:14,320
with the, you know, freakishly casual narrative that played out over the first like two acts,
862
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:21,760
it kind of adds to that sense of security, I think that I feel when I'm, you know,
863
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:27,360
watching our films. So and yeah, with the names of the characters, I mean, I could,
864
01:35:27,360 --> 01:35:30,880
you know, jump into some of that. But hold on. Yeah, don't don't jump into that yet.
865
01:35:30,880 --> 01:35:35,280
Don't jump into that because that you said you said something interesting that I want to hear
866
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:40,320
you think you said you get a sense of security in horror films. You mean like the security that
867
01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:46,880
horror films try to give you before they pull the rug out or or just like a sense of familiarity
868
01:35:46,880 --> 01:35:54,480
with the films? It's more more so that over the course of a film, I feel that horror movies,
869
01:35:54,480 --> 01:36:01,280
whenever I'm watching a movie, I kind of consider, you know, what kinds of fears am I trying to
870
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:09,120
protect myself from as a movie plays out. And so in a weird way, in the movie, you know,
871
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:15,520
then being locked inside, and there's this interesting kind of symbology of like doors and
872
01:36:15,520 --> 01:36:21,360
locks and right. Also adding to the fact that he was, you know, the main character will was
873
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:29,120
returning back to a place that he had, you know, previously felt a sense of security and comfort
874
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:36,640
where now he is that he isn't. And so in that sense, you know, horror movies kind of play off of
875
01:36:36,640 --> 01:36:43,600
people's, you know, they start to unlock those fears for people in various different ways. And
876
01:36:43,600 --> 01:36:49,680
so, you know, when it comes to the security, it's more like they're taking these characters and
877
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:54,400
putting them in a vulnerable state so they can kind of unlock those things and kind of prepare
878
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:58,640
them for the horrors that they're about to play out throughout the duration of the film.
879
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:04,160
That's interesting. And also I noticed the first time I saw it, I didn't mention this in the first
880
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:11,200
segment, because this is something very specific to you. You have a very specific fear, and we
881
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:17,360
can edit this out if you don't mention it, of windows in lit rooms looking out into the dark.
882
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:24,480
Yeah. And that entire building, I think it's mostly windows on the ground floor.
883
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,440
Yeah, I mean, there is a couple different scenes of, you know, the main character
884
01:37:29,440 --> 01:37:36,880
will being outside looking in and inside looking out. I have, I mean, oddly enough,
885
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:42,400
I'm sitting here in my apartment, all my windows completely covered. Well, that's not odd. That's
886
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:49,520
right on brand. But I, you know, I attribute some of those fears, thanks to you scaring the hell out
887
01:37:49,520 --> 01:37:57,520
of me. I mean, what was I like, like 11 or 10 or something? No, you would have had to been like
888
01:37:58,160 --> 01:38:05,200
12 or 13, because are you talking about the porch incident? You know the one. I'm washing the dishes
889
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:12,400
and you were on the porch and what was creepy about that was at that moment, I kept thinking to myself
890
01:38:12,400 --> 01:38:19,120
how terrified I would be if something were looking at me from outside the window. And at that point,
891
01:38:19,120 --> 01:38:24,880
I was home alone. No one was there. I just had music playing and I was just watching the dishes.
892
01:38:24,880 --> 01:38:30,960
And so I had this fear happen. And so when I saw your face, it didn't register that it was.
893
01:38:30,960 --> 01:38:36,160
I haven't said that story. I haven't told that story yet. But I mean, essentially,
894
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:41,040
essentially what happened listener was I got home, I was out with my friends or something.
895
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:45,680
My brother, my poor brother was home washing dishes and the way that our kitchen was laid out
896
01:38:45,680 --> 01:38:51,760
is that the sink, like many kitchens is right underneath the window facing outside. So I was
897
01:38:51,760 --> 01:38:56,240
like, Oh, this will be funny. I'll just put half my face up. So just my eyes are above the lower
898
01:38:56,240 --> 01:39:03,200
windows. So and it took about 40 seconds. But eventually Eric looked up and I mean, you fell
899
01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:09,520
backwards. Screamed and fell back because like I said, at the moment I kept having that thought.
900
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:16,240
And so seeing it manifest, I wasn't anticipating it because, you know, up until that point,
901
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:23,520
like my mind will often play tricks on me or get me to, you know, get freaked out over things that
902
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:32,560
aren't there. So when that moment where something was there, you really kind of threw me. And so
903
01:39:33,600 --> 01:39:39,440
that's not the main reason. I don't know. I just have that could be it. It could be. But I think
904
01:39:39,440 --> 01:39:45,440
I just have a very, I mean, I have a very active imagination. And so it sometimes will just run
905
01:39:45,440 --> 01:39:51,680
away with itself. And so the idea of windows and, you know, something looking, there's a sense of,
906
01:39:51,680 --> 01:40:00,800
you know, this division that's not really an effective division of glass. And so
907
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:08,480
it kind of like we pretend we pretend that by locking our windows and doors that were safe,
908
01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:12,480
but honestly, you just need to rock. And that's all you need to get through the window.
909
01:40:13,200 --> 01:40:18,560
Right. And it's it's interesting because in the in the movie, you know, all the windows were barred,
910
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:26,000
except for a handful of doors, I think didn't have them. But yeah, I couldn't imagine
911
01:40:27,200 --> 01:40:34,560
like living in a space where you just have a wide open glass door facing out into a dark yard.
912
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:42,560
Well, there's a it's unsettling, I guess, for me. There's also a it's a quality of light that if
913
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:46,560
you're in the light and you're looking out in the dark, you can't see out in the dark. Like you
914
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:53,280
can't see out there, but people can see in. So I get that. But I also I played some part in your
915
01:40:53,280 --> 01:41:00,080
drama. Sorry about that. Yeah. So one of the things I was curious about, and I don't I still
916
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:05,040
don't know how to really interpret it. What do you think of the Sadie character, the one who she
917
01:41:05,040 --> 01:41:10,800
shows up with her pants off, and she's just trying to fuck like, what do you would you make a make
918
01:41:10,800 --> 01:41:17,280
of her because she was clearly like one of the she was hook line and sinker in the cult. Like
919
01:41:17,280 --> 01:41:22,400
she was she was fully into it. But like what was up with her? Why was she there? I think well,
920
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:27,040
you know, if we're looking I was looking at the characters. There was an interesting there's all
921
01:41:27,040 --> 01:41:35,120
kinds of parallels between, you know, maybe I'm looking too far into it. But you know, the apostles
922
01:41:35,120 --> 01:41:40,960
and dude, no such thing on this podcast. And so, you know, I kept trying to count how many characters
923
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:48,560
we had in the room. And you know, her particular Sadie, I felt was more of just a representation
924
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:58,560
of sin temptation, kind of the carnal aspects of humanity. And so, right from the start, I mean,
925
01:41:58,560 --> 01:42:05,440
right from in her introduction, like I was like, yeah, she she represents something. She's going
926
01:42:05,440 --> 01:42:14,240
to play a role that kind of is going to, you know, have an impact on our lead protagonist. So
927
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:18,560
like she just shows up with her bits out right like I think he's it's one of those times where
928
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:22,960
you said like the main character will he's often looking through portals, whether it be a door or
929
01:42:22,960 --> 01:42:28,480
a window and I think he sees her outside like out back, or maybe walking through the hallway just
930
01:42:28,480 --> 01:42:33,280
with no hands at the end of the hall when he's at the living room. Yeah, and she has no pants on
931
01:42:33,280 --> 01:42:38,720
right she has rolls by with her ass. Yeah, it was kind of hard to make out at first I couldn't tell.
932
01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:44,000
But when she turns to leave from his line of sight, you can make out that I don't think she's
933
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:49,600
wearing pants. She's wearing a shirt and she's got like some kind of like, kind of like a playful
934
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:55,120
smile on her face. You know, basically just like what the hell is going on with this character?
935
01:42:55,760 --> 01:43:01,360
Yes, like right from the right from the get go, he's introduced into this home that something's
936
01:43:01,360 --> 01:43:05,840
not quite right. Some things you know, something strange as a foot at the circle K.
937
01:43:08,160 --> 01:43:16,240
Excellent. Excellent reference. Okay, so we got Sadie, we've got a lot of the other characters,
938
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:18,960
we're going to get into kind of the side characters like I forget all their names,
939
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:26,480
which I should really know. But the one that also stands out in the among the whole cast is
940
01:43:26,480 --> 01:43:31,600
pro it kind of the guy who I think he killed his wife, the older gentlemen who kind of he's a friend
941
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:39,120
of David's. Yeah, he's also he's zodiac in in David Fincher zodiac. So he's like a really
942
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:46,640
like intimidating force I think in the movie is almost like the muscle. But I think his story
943
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:51,680
that he tells about what he did and why he was drawn to the cult I think is very much like when
944
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:55,440
they watch that video of the woman dying like it's like a turning point for a lot of people
945
01:43:55,440 --> 01:44:03,120
where they're like, what the fuck is this business? Yeah, I think, you know, when they were going
946
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:11,760
around playing the game of I want and I want to talk about my wife and he speaks of, you know,
947
01:44:11,760 --> 01:44:17,920
her and the instance of their fight which led to her death and, you know, that ties into a lot
948
01:44:17,920 --> 01:44:24,320
of different things like the video they had they had watched. You know, the recruitment video was
949
01:44:24,320 --> 01:44:29,680
very fast around the notion of death because there was a person who was literally on her deathbed.
950
01:44:29,680 --> 01:44:35,840
And bro, it talks about his his dead wife, the two main characters will and Eden, they had lost
951
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:44,640
their son. And so there's a lot of there's a lot of characters in the lineup that were currently
952
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:56,480
dealing with loss and grief. And so it was it definitely painted the the the picture that
953
01:44:56,480 --> 01:45:01,040
these people were getting things off their chest, which obviously ultimately later on you find out
954
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:08,160
why but you know, just just another example of an unsettling instance that, you know,
955
01:45:09,120 --> 01:45:15,600
should have raised way more red flags. Well, it's also like, I mean, not that the characters would
956
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:21,680
know but because of the the shit that I study, like people who've experienced loss and who are
957
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:26,960
vulnerable like they are prime targets for cults and extremist groups, like that's who they go for
958
01:45:26,960 --> 01:45:31,440
because it gives them a sense of belonging, it gives them a sense that they're part of something,
959
01:45:31,440 --> 01:45:37,120
it gives them a sense that there's something to live for. So the fact that like Eden and
960
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:41,360
Pruitt and others like the fact that they were drawn to it, it's not a surprise because those
961
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:50,400
people are ripe for picking. Yeah, I mean, the the characters, you know, I think there's a there's
962
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:58,480
an interesting, I guess, theme that plays out in more supernatural horror films about characters
963
01:45:58,480 --> 01:46:04,960
who are vulnerable, whether they're in a state of duress or stress or trauma, where it kind of being
964
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:10,960
in that kind of state opens them up for attack. Oh, yeah, when it comes to supernatural like spirits
965
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:18,720
or demons or whatever. And so you could kind of see that these cultists are essentially demons,
966
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:26,960
right? They're so they are kind of taking advantage of their situation and, you know,
967
01:46:26,960 --> 01:46:33,280
possessing them, corrupting them, you know, affecting them. So yeah, there's also in
968
01:46:34,320 --> 01:46:41,200
in possession films, I'm thinking of Remember the Exorcism of Emily Rose, and they're like, oh, why
969
01:46:41,200 --> 01:46:47,760
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was pretty, that was a creepy one. But I forget. Yeah, but they
970
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:52,720
make a point to say that the reason that she was targeted was because she was, you know,
971
01:46:52,720 --> 01:46:58,000
pious and religious, but also very vulnerable. She was very protected and all these things,
972
01:46:58,000 --> 01:47:06,720
which is why she was targeted by the 123456 demons. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's interesting the
973
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:12,640
thought of these kinds of things that play out in supernatural films, then you have this
974
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:19,520
movie where it says people, but then there's, you know, elements of religion that play out,
975
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:25,280
you know, the, you know, belief of life and death and whatever belief system people choose
976
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:30,800
to believe in. And even they even touched on it in the movie when they were trying to,
977
01:47:30,800 --> 01:47:36,160
you know, when they first kind of broach the topic. And one of the characters that he was Tommy
978
01:47:36,160 --> 01:47:39,920
starts laughing, he's like, this is a cult, this is a cult, like, yeah, he's like,
979
01:47:39,920 --> 01:47:46,000
cult, you know, come on, recruit me or whatever. And they, you know, they tried to bypass the
980
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:50,320
religious nature of it and tried using saying it's more about science, right? It's more about
981
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:55,840
science and, you know, the real real world and people and things like that. But you can't deny
982
01:47:55,840 --> 01:48:04,560
that there are very close similarities between, you know, the kind of, you know, it's a religion,
983
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:11,120
like they were essentially trying to convert them. Oh, of course. Yeah. And so you have this group
984
01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:18,080
of people in a room drinking wine. I mean, it's very like one to one, right? There's like,
985
01:48:18,800 --> 01:48:26,000
they're all talking about life and death and eternal life. And just there's so many different,
986
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:32,400
you know, connections there. What's a good point you make about the fact that the religious is
987
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:37,280
never the jumping point for the cult. It's always the social aspect or the scientific aspect. I
988
01:48:37,280 --> 01:48:43,600
was actually, this is completely off kilter for this podcast specifically. But the episode of
989
01:48:43,600 --> 01:48:48,240
Boy Meets World, when Sean gets recruited into a cult at the center, how does he get recruited?
990
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:54,160
Sure. Yeah. How does he recruit? There's girls and it's like a social space and freaking,
991
01:48:54,960 --> 01:48:59,680
what's his name, Styles from Teen Wolf is really groovy teacher. And that's how he gets drawn into
992
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:05,600
it. But then it kind of devolves into, well, do you believe in God? And he's like, I don't know.
993
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:09,680
So it never starts with the religion aspect, because that turns too many people off. But you
994
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:13,600
talk about, you know, social aspects and things like that, and it draws people in. And you see
995
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:18,720
that again here with the I Want Game. The I Want Game is what draws people in because they get to
996
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:26,160
talk about and kind of normalize the things they might not get to do at normally polite company.
997
01:49:26,160 --> 01:49:34,000
Yeah. I mean, you talk about the names of the characters and stuff and David, the host of the
998
01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:40,080
group, that name literally means beloved. So like an all loving character. Yeah. Upon his
999
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:47,040
introduction, he is essentially the cult leader of the night. And upon meeting will, I mean, and
1000
01:49:47,760 --> 01:49:55,600
even Kira, his girlfriend, he it's all loving and hugging and, you know, a lot of language around,
1001
01:49:55,600 --> 01:50:00,560
you know, we're so happy you're here. This like comforting kind of you have a place here, we're
1002
01:50:00,560 --> 01:50:06,720
all a family, all these kinds of things, very, you know, psychologically manipulative.
1003
01:50:06,720 --> 01:50:11,840
Yeah. Yeah, especially because Will's coming back to this place where his kid was and where his kid
1004
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:15,760
died for, I think, the first time since it happened. Well, I mean, he was back there for the first
1005
01:50:15,760 --> 01:50:21,120
time since moving out of there anyway. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Did you look at all into the names, William
1006
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:28,160
and Kira? I don't know anything about those names. Kira, I believe I think the name of her was
1007
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:36,720
some of a strong, like a strong Lord. And I kind of took my takeaway from that was how, you know,
1008
01:50:36,720 --> 01:50:41,920
she kept trying to pull Will away like we should leave now, we should leave now. So it was a sense
1009
01:50:41,920 --> 01:50:46,960
in my, at least in my interpretation, it was kind of like she was trying to be a
1010
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:54,480
an influence of strength to pull him away from the events that were transpiring.
1011
01:50:55,440 --> 01:51:02,560
Or, you know, him falling down into, you know, another pit of despair as he started to break down
1012
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:11,440
and question everything. And then you have Will, who that literally means expressing like
1013
01:51:11,440 --> 01:51:17,600
the future tense by Will and he's stuck in the past. So I always thought that was kind of interesting.
1014
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:23,360
But then you also have the will to survive. There's a lot of things you can apply to it.
1015
01:51:24,080 --> 01:51:30,000
I really like the future tense thing because he doesn't go by William, he doesn't go by Bill,
1016
01:51:30,000 --> 01:51:35,600
he goes by Will. And how many people go by Will? Like usually people go by Bill or Billier,
1017
01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:40,080
they go by William. There's very few people that go by Will. So I just think you're onto something
1018
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:45,760
there. What about Eden? What did you get from her? I mean, you kind of touched on it earlier.
1019
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:50,800
I mean, right off the bat, I was writing in my notes, like, that's an interesting name choice.
1020
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:57,280
It seems very intentional. Yeah. Biblical paradise, free of pain and suffering.
1021
01:51:58,320 --> 01:52:06,320
I mean, this character who is clearly putting up a front, wanting to, you know, be free of all of
1022
01:52:06,320 --> 01:52:13,040
her pain. And it's pretty straightforward. Yeah. And last, I mean, there are plenty of characters,
1023
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:17,520
but I thought Pruitt was an interesting choice too. Like how do people name Pruitt? Do you have
1024
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:24,080
anything on that name? I did look it up. I can't recall what I found. I didn't write it down because
1025
01:52:24,080 --> 01:52:30,720
I got swept up in what was taking place during the movie. I should have paused, but I was waiting
1026
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:37,120
for the other shoe to drop with Claire who left. Okay. When she left and Pruitt followed after her.
1027
01:52:37,840 --> 01:52:43,680
And, you know, I kept thinking, oh, there's no way. I doubt I think she probably got killed outside.
1028
01:52:43,680 --> 01:52:49,840
That's what we were having a little debate about what happened to her when she left. And I think
1029
01:52:49,840 --> 01:53:01,600
we fell on the fact that she probably died. Yeah. It was seemed way too intentional that, you know,
1030
01:53:01,600 --> 01:53:09,120
the directors sitting there filming Will watch her leave safely, only to at the very last minute,
1031
01:53:09,120 --> 01:53:13,520
Pruitt keeps her from leaving and then he's pulled away by David. So he no longer has
1032
01:53:13,520 --> 01:53:19,920
sight on if she actually got away. So I think it's pretty clear indicator that she in fact was
1033
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:26,720
probably killed in the road. Yeah. The coyote actually. So yeah. So we talked about the coyote
1034
01:53:26,720 --> 01:53:31,520
because the coyote scene seems so and it is actually funny you mentioned Midsomer because
1035
01:53:31,520 --> 01:53:37,600
it struck me as a parallel to Midsomer that remember in Midsomer the entire movie and because
1036
01:53:37,600 --> 01:53:41,760
I'm talking about it this season, I don't want to spoil anything, but the entire movie is spelled
1037
01:53:41,760 --> 01:53:47,120
out for you in the first 90 seconds. Like remember it shows that big panel and it shows like a bunch
1038
01:53:47,120 --> 01:53:53,680
of images of the picture on the wall. Yeah, it's illustration. Then they kind of open up almost
1039
01:53:53,680 --> 01:53:57,920
like you're watching a play. But if you pause it and look at that whole thing, it showed what
1040
01:53:57,920 --> 01:54:06,400
happened throughout the entire movie all the way through. I argued that the mercy killing of the
1041
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:10,960
coyote showed what was going to happen over the course of the entire movie because a coyote
1042
01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:15,840
and a lot of Native American lore, a couple of things. Number one, it's often seen as a trickster,
1043
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:21,280
somebody who lies to you to get you to do what it wants you to do. And it's often seen as a
1044
01:54:22,640 --> 01:54:26,240
spirit that guides you from the living world to the world of the dead.
1045
01:54:27,280 --> 01:54:33,600
Interesting. Yeah. So I was like, okay, so what happens? They hit this coyote and then Will goes
1046
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:39,440
out and kills it with a tire iron. So I was like, oh, it's interesting. They're going to encounter
1047
01:54:39,440 --> 01:54:46,240
these kinds of tricksters, but they managed to win over them. Like they don't join the cult and
1048
01:54:46,240 --> 01:54:53,040
they don't die at the end. Neither will nor Kira die. So Will kills the coyote, kills the trickster,
1049
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:58,960
and then we see that play out over the course of the movie. So it's not as comprehensive as in
1050
01:54:58,960 --> 01:55:08,240
Midsomer, but it's also a way to look at the way the movie played out. Yeah, I think when movies
1051
01:55:08,240 --> 01:55:14,880
do these kinds of things, sometimes I can forget to catch or pay attention or closer attention.
1052
01:55:16,080 --> 01:55:19,920
But this one, I don't know what it was, but I definitely right from the bat, I have it written
1053
01:55:19,920 --> 01:55:28,000
down. It seemed way too convenient to, you know, a weird event right off in the first couple of
1054
01:55:28,000 --> 01:55:33,440
minutes. Yeah, that event was actually, I would maybe want to do this podcast because I was like,
1055
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:39,440
what the hell was that? Like it was out of nowhere. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the
1056
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:43,600
plot other than kind of setting an ominous tone. But I was like, all right, let's see what coyotes
1057
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:48,960
mean. And turns out, yeah, they actually do mean something. And I could be reading into it completely.
1058
01:55:49,520 --> 01:55:56,320
No, I think that symbolism is, they didn't just say, what should we have them hit? I don't know,
1059
01:55:56,320 --> 01:56:00,640
a coyote. Like that just doesn't really make sense. There's got to be something because they could
1060
01:56:00,640 --> 01:56:08,320
have picked any animal. It could have been a stray dog. It could have been a raccoon or whatever.
1061
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:15,920
So I think that, I think it was immense something. Even movies, like lots of movies do,
1062
01:56:15,920 --> 01:56:21,040
it's not just horror film, like take something like even a blockbuster film like Back to the
1063
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:25,760
Future, the intro shot tells you how the movie's going to play out. You have this slow panning
1064
01:56:25,760 --> 01:56:30,800
shot showing a bunch of clocks. And they're also, you later find out they're behind. So there's
1065
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:35,520
like a sense of like time travel. And then there's a picture of a guy hanging from a clock.
1066
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:39,920
Oh, for real? I never knew that. If you don't pay attention, you miss it. But
1067
01:56:39,920 --> 01:56:43,040
there's no reason for you to really think anything of it because the movie just started.
1068
01:56:43,600 --> 01:56:48,960
I never knew that. So these instances, you know, I think, you know, directors or screenwriters,
1069
01:56:48,960 --> 01:56:53,360
whoever are the ones that are responsible for starting the movie this way, it's really smart.
1070
01:56:53,360 --> 01:56:58,560
I think it, you know, for people who look into those things, I think it's, you know, a nice kind
1071
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:05,920
of, I don't know, springboard into paying closer attention to things that transpire over the duration
1072
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:11,360
of the movie. Well, it adds a layer that makes it almost more fun to pay attention. Like there are
1073
01:57:11,360 --> 01:57:16,480
certain movies and TV shows that reward you for paying attention to what's going on around you.
1074
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:20,960
Like, I mean, one of our favorites, the leftovers, like if you pay attention really
1075
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:25,360
closely to that, you see all kinds of hidden meaning throughout the entirety of it. And it makes it
1076
01:57:25,360 --> 01:57:28,480
more fun to watch because you're looking for those little Easter eggs all over the place.
1077
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:36,320
Yeah. Yeah. All right. So we talked briefly, and I want to talk before we close out here about that
1078
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:43,360
ending. I argue that that ending is one of the best horror endings since or yeah, I came after
1079
01:57:43,360 --> 01:57:49,120
one of the best horror endings since the mist, which I still think has one of the best horror
1080
01:57:49,120 --> 01:57:53,840
endings ever in a horror movie. You've seen the mist, right? Yeah. Yeah, of course. I was gonna say
1081
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:59,040
you've seen the mist. Okay. So you know that that's devastating. But then there's this one where
1082
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:04,480
a lot of people seem to enjoy the cult. What do you think of the ending there?
1083
01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:11,600
Well, what's interesting is, you know, the events that lead up into the third act is essentially
1084
01:58:11,600 --> 01:58:16,960
a last supper reference. Right? Yeah. You have everybody at the table, the drinking wine. There's
1085
01:58:16,960 --> 01:58:23,280
a close up shot of all of them like eating. It's like, there's some direct kind of correlations
1086
01:58:23,280 --> 01:58:27,680
taking place. And doesn't David even kind of stand up and extend his arms outward like in the last
1087
01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:32,880
supper? Kind of like he's sitting at the head of the table and, you know, he has the speech where
1088
01:58:32,880 --> 01:58:39,360
and but essentially it's, you know, they're all looking to be born again. Right. And it's essentially
1089
01:58:39,360 --> 01:58:44,480
the they even talk about in the film, the the invitation being like a thing that's becoming
1090
01:58:44,480 --> 01:58:52,560
more popular amongst people. And so in a similar way, you could argue, you know, how Christianity
1091
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:59,760
kind of came into being and after the events of the last supper and, you know, the death of
1092
01:59:00,720 --> 01:59:09,040
key pivotal, pivotal, you know, characters or individuals. I assume the doctor in the video
1093
01:59:09,040 --> 01:59:17,360
is one of the one of these people who has died up until the point. And so when the ending happens,
1094
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:26,000
it's kind of scary in the sense of, OK, so there were way more people that were that bought into
1095
01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:32,480
this call. And now this is like a real thing. This isn't just like a small group of people. And I
1096
01:59:32,480 --> 01:59:38,480
think that's where kind of the really kind of, you know, twist scare comes in at the very end,
1097
01:59:38,480 --> 01:59:47,200
where you're like, oh, whoa, like this is bigger and more inescapable than just leaving a house.
1098
01:59:47,200 --> 01:59:51,200
Yeah. And you I mean, you know about me, like we've how many how many zombie movies have we
1099
01:59:51,200 --> 01:59:57,120
watched together. But like what always scares me about those kinds of movies is the collapse of
1100
01:59:57,920 --> 02:00:02,480
like civilization and civilized behavior. And you can hear in the background, like there's
1101
02:00:02,480 --> 02:00:07,680
sirens everywhere because all kinds of yeah, exactly. Like that to me is the scariest thing
1102
02:00:07,680 --> 02:00:15,840
is that when people kind of throw off regular social norms and do things like start freaking
1103
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:19,920
poisoning their guests and attacking them with knives and that kind of thing. That to me is
1104
02:00:19,920 --> 02:00:25,600
the scariest thing, which is why the ending hit me so hard. Yeah, I think, you know, that that sense
1105
02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:34,080
of helplessness and chaos, where you were completely out of control, it kind of, you know, plays into
1106
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:38,800
the security thing I was talking about earlier, where everybody has their things that make them
1107
02:00:38,800 --> 02:00:42,880
feel safe and secure. And they even said it in the movie, there's a point where, you know,
1108
02:00:43,680 --> 02:00:48,960
Will is freaking out and he's on the back porch. And I think his friend Tom comes out and he's
1109
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:52,000
like, you're really freaking everybody out. And he hugs me. He's like, you're safe. He's like,
1110
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:59,120
you know, you're not. Yeah. So you find out nobody is apparently. So it's not just happening here
1111
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:04,880
at this house. It's happening all over. And that's scary because they can't just return to their
1112
02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:11,600
lives as they knew it. That the way that life was for these characters is no longer going to be the
1113
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:19,440
same. And I think when we talk about, you know, movies that where that event, whatever it may be,
1114
02:01:19,440 --> 02:01:24,800
whether it's a zombie apocalypse or like a dystopian kind of nuclear war, whatever it is,
1115
02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:33,760
those things are scary because a couple levels, I think, you know, people naturally fear change,
1116
02:01:34,960 --> 02:01:40,720
especially when it's changed, that's out of their control. And especially, especially when it's out
1117
02:01:40,720 --> 02:01:45,920
of their control and they are put in danger. So, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just people. Like,
1118
02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:50,800
that's another level of it's like, you know, you watch a movie about some supernatural thing,
1119
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:55,680
like a ghost or, you know, zombies or, you know, whatever it may be, like,
1120
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:01,280
to some level in the back of your head, you can go, oh, well, that's that doesn't exist. So, you
1121
02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:08,560
know, yeah, but people or people exist. Well, it's always the biggest threat. I mean, even in like,
1122
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:13,760
dystopian apocalypse is like the last of us. What's the biggest threat? It's not the clickers. Like,
1123
02:02:13,760 --> 02:02:19,360
the clickers, you can almost predict what's the danger is other people. And I mean, for those of
1124
02:02:19,360 --> 02:02:24,720
you who haven't played or know the story of the last of us to, I mean, that becomes even more
1125
02:02:26,560 --> 02:02:31,840
salient as you watch. But I mean, the last of us, the road, remember the movie, the road?
1126
02:02:31,840 --> 02:02:35,200
Yeah, the road, you can even argue walk the walking dead elements of that.
1127
02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:39,040
Yeah, I mean, you could argue a lot about the walking death.
1128
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:44,640
I just mean in terms of no, no, you're right. The plot, right? Well, yeah, who are the big
1129
02:02:44,640 --> 02:02:50,800
bads in that? It's always it's the governor, it's Negan, it's always it's not a zombie, like
1130
02:02:51,520 --> 02:02:57,440
it's level level. Yeah, it's not a boss. Yeah, it's not it's not a bloater. It's always a human who
1131
02:02:57,440 --> 02:03:02,480
has control over people. And like when you have control over people, and you're able to influence
1132
02:03:02,480 --> 02:03:06,720
their minds, it can get it can get screwy. And that to me is what's scared. The scariest thing
1133
02:03:06,720 --> 02:03:11,440
about this movie is not just the cultish behavior, but it's the fact that so many people bought into
1134
02:03:11,440 --> 02:03:20,000
it. I think it's a good reminder to that. You know, what was the movie that came out on? Was it a
1135
02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:28,080
came? I was a called the like, leave us behind or something. Leave us behind recently. Yeah,
1136
02:03:28,080 --> 02:03:31,920
it was within the past year and oh, I haven't seen it. We should leave this world behind.
1137
02:03:32,560 --> 02:03:37,520
Yeah, like, I haven't seen it. Yeah, I won't. Okay, then I won't say anything. But there's similar
1138
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:44,560
things things that play out. And but in general, it's the idea of, you know, the collapse and,
1139
02:03:45,600 --> 02:03:51,600
you know, when there are no rules, what do you do? Yeah, that's that's to me is the scariest thing.
1140
02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:57,920
Like, in TV, an example of a zombie movie is freaking the new dawn of the dead, which is still
1141
02:03:57,920 --> 02:04:06,480
I think one of the best remakes ever. The first, I don't know what 10 minutes where where everything
1142
02:04:06,480 --> 02:04:10,560
breaks out. I mean, it's scary when the little girl rips the guy's throat out and scary when
1143
02:04:10,560 --> 02:04:14,640
they he chases her out of the building. But what's scariest to me is when she's driving away and
1144
02:04:14,640 --> 02:04:18,560
there's like traffic over the place and that she looks on a bus and people are being killed in the
1145
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:23,920
bus and people are just like, they have guns on each other. That to me is the scariest thing is
1146
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:30,080
when society collapses. That is terrifying to me. Yeah, there's I mean, there's another movie that
1147
02:04:30,080 --> 02:04:39,920
just came out. It's the what is it's the Emily Blunt in it. It's the movie where you can't talk.
1148
02:04:39,920 --> 02:04:46,320
It's a horror movie. Quiet place. Quiet place. So the quiet place to came out. And I was talking
1149
02:04:46,320 --> 02:04:50,560
to one of my friends the other day about it. And I asked him how it was because I haven't seen it.
1150
02:04:50,560 --> 02:04:55,600
And he was a little disappointed because it's it was supposed to be a prequel. And so you were
1151
02:04:55,600 --> 02:05:00,240
supposed to see more of the events play out. And what I find so appealing about that is like
1152
02:05:00,240 --> 02:05:06,880
horror movies don't typically show much of that part of like the world falling apart, right?
1153
02:05:06,880 --> 02:05:12,720
Yeah. Yeah. And so and that is one of the scariest parts like creatures and monsters and
1154
02:05:12,720 --> 02:05:20,400
jump scares or like whatever. It's really the the the the kind of like plausible breakdown that's
1155
02:05:20,400 --> 02:05:27,360
really terrifying. Oh, hell yeah. Well, you know, I mean, you know, yeah, bobing both of us, we
1156
02:05:27,360 --> 02:05:33,120
were not we're not the jump scare crowd jump scares just pissed me off. I think they can be used
1157
02:05:33,120 --> 02:05:36,800
if they're if they're used well, I don't mind them. But when they're just used too often or
1158
02:05:36,800 --> 02:05:42,640
they're used in a cheap way, and you expect you can expect them and then it's it's more of a nuisance.
1159
02:05:42,640 --> 02:05:46,080
Because it's this is loud noise in your ear. And you're like, okay, yeah, move on.
1160
02:05:46,080 --> 02:05:51,840
Yeah, I think an example of a good jump scare would be, I mean, at least it made me jump would be
1161
02:05:51,840 --> 02:05:56,240
hereditary when she's like on the wall in the corner and you don't see her till your eyes adjust
1162
02:05:56,240 --> 02:06:01,760
and then she scampers off on the wall. Oh my god, dude, that scene messed me up.
1163
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:07,280
I still say we're gonna I think I still freak out, man. I know I know you're you're my guest for
1164
02:06:07,280 --> 02:06:12,640
hereditary, remember? So hereditary later. Yeah, yeah, because that's a watch that nightmare that
1165
02:06:12,640 --> 02:06:16,320
that will watch out when you're coming to visit next week. So we'll watch it when you visit,
1166
02:06:16,320 --> 02:06:21,280
because that movie, I say is the scariest movie the last 20 years. That movie is terrifying.
1167
02:06:23,040 --> 02:06:30,160
Yeah, it um, you know, that movie obviously has a supernatural element to it. But
1168
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:37,120
it was handled in such a way that really kind of put me on edge. I still have weird moments where
1169
02:06:37,120 --> 02:06:45,280
if like, a room is too dark, I and the corners to dark, I have to like have to like remind myself
1170
02:06:45,280 --> 02:06:50,480
that you know, it's you know, make sure Tony Tony try to what make sure Tony Colette's not hanging
1171
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:58,320
out in the corner. Yeah. Yeah. This movie was what was interesting. I was the only thing that I think
1172
02:06:58,320 --> 02:07:06,480
I had any kind of issue with was the the flashback scenes. I get what they were trying to do, but
1173
02:07:06,480 --> 02:07:13,520
I didn't feel that they had, they didn't play enough into the events of what were taking place. I
1174
02:07:13,520 --> 02:07:19,040
was hoping that there was like some kind of larger connection there. Yeah, I also I would also argue
1175
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:25,280
that I think they would have been more effective if they just alluded to what Will was so messed up
1176
02:07:25,280 --> 02:07:29,760
over instead of actually showing it. Like we don't we know he's upset. We know why he's upset. We
1177
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:35,280
don't need to see why he's upset. Sure. Yeah. I didn't I didn't mind that part. Like, you think
1178
02:07:35,280 --> 02:07:44,000
it was pretty obvious. But it was, I think, you know, the character, the main character, Will,
1179
02:07:44,000 --> 02:07:51,920
I think his you were left with him, you know, oddly enough, like, you know, when he is he
1180
02:07:51,920 --> 02:08:00,400
managed to survive and escape. Everything that played out, only to be met with basically another
1181
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:05,360
one, but larger, I just kind of felt for the character, you know, it's yeah. Well, there's
1182
02:08:05,360 --> 02:08:09,840
there there is a moment of hope there because the movie ends. Yes, you see all those red lights,
1183
02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:15,040
but he also he gets close. He's kind of distant from cure the entire time. But in that last moment,
1184
02:08:15,040 --> 02:08:19,360
he takes her exactly he takes her hand. So it's almost like he has a little bit of an arc and
1185
02:08:19,360 --> 02:08:24,560
he's growing a bit from what he experienced. So there is a little bit there. Yeah, I totally
1186
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:29,520
caught on to that too. Like there was that one scene where she's trying to help him through,
1187
02:08:29,520 --> 02:08:36,640
I think the first one of his first kind of moments where he kind of loses it. And he says to
1188
02:08:36,640 --> 02:08:40,800
reason, I love you, but you can't help me. Yeah, and then you're met with that part at the end,
1189
02:08:40,800 --> 02:08:45,920
or it's kind of like, well, you know, character growth. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think the
1190
02:08:45,920 --> 02:08:51,680
movie is really well written. I think it's I think it's very good. So last question, as kind of a
1191
02:08:52,960 --> 02:08:56,320
new audience member of this movie, would you recommend this movie for people?
1192
02:08:56,320 --> 02:09:06,560
Yeah, I think this movie is holds an interesting place in that it's not what I expected from
1193
02:09:09,280 --> 02:09:13,440
from a horror film. I think if you like, kind of like psychological,
1194
02:09:14,640 --> 02:09:20,000
meaningful kind of narratives, I think this would be an interesting watch. It has a really,
1195
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:27,120
obviously like a really great twist to it. And I think, you know, I hope to see more films that
1196
02:09:27,120 --> 02:09:32,880
are kind of follow suit. Yeah, and I think I think the whole point of this series that I'm doing
1197
02:09:32,880 --> 02:09:38,640
now is for movies like that, movies that have that kind of psychological element, because, you know,
1198
02:09:39,280 --> 02:09:43,440
I don't like jump scares, I think they're lame. So I try to get movies that don't have those other
1199
02:09:43,440 --> 02:09:50,720
than they did a really good job where you are led to believe something is wrong. And then, you know,
1200
02:09:50,720 --> 02:09:56,960
with the character Choi showing up, it kind of like resets you and puts your your guard down.
1201
02:09:57,520 --> 02:10:03,760
Yeah. You know, and so that was really, I think, I think, you know, that part of the writing
1202
02:10:04,320 --> 02:10:09,840
was one of the most masterful parts of the movie. Well, I got last thing I'll say,
1203
02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:15,840
before we sign off here is I mentioned it in the first part, but I'll recommend it to you. And I
1204
02:10:15,840 --> 02:10:19,840
know you haven't seen it yet, because I saw it by myself. And I've never heard of it before. A
1205
02:10:19,840 --> 02:10:25,120
movie you should watch if you're if you like this movie, Eric is it's called They Look Like People.
1206
02:10:26,640 --> 02:10:33,760
Okay, it's very, very good. It's about a guy who has some psychological issues. And he,
1207
02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:40,160
he's convinced that certain people aren't what they seem to be. And it's a short movie. It's like
1208
02:10:40,160 --> 02:10:43,920
80, 90 minutes, you like it a lot. It's the same. It's the same kind of idea, very kind of
1209
02:10:45,280 --> 02:10:49,920
psychologically driven, not jump scary, but it will put you like you'll be
1210
02:10:50,560 --> 02:10:56,960
leaning forward watching it for sure. Okay, I'll give it a go. So all right, with that,
1211
02:10:56,960 --> 02:11:04,160
we are going to end episode 102. But if you liked Eric, he'll be back for hereditary talking about
1212
02:11:04,160 --> 02:11:08,480
how we both kind of shit our pants watching the movie. Did we see that in the theater? I forget.
1213
02:11:09,360 --> 02:11:14,640
Yeah, we definitely saw it in the theater. I remember, because at the end of the movie,
1214
02:11:14,640 --> 02:11:19,760
I didn't realize I was clenching the armrest the entire time my hand was like sweating.
1215
02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:31,040
Yeah, hereditary, hereditary has the, it has the honor of being one of three movies that I saw
1216
02:11:31,040 --> 02:11:36,560
either with or right after you saw the theater that scared the shit out of me. One was event
1217
02:11:36,560 --> 02:11:42,480
horizon, which you watch by yourself in the theater that I worked in. Yeah. The second was the ring,
1218
02:11:42,480 --> 02:11:47,360
which I saw, I think you saw once before I saw it. So when you turned over and looked at me,
1219
02:11:47,360 --> 02:11:52,640
I was like, what the fuck? And the third was hereditary. So hereditary will be a lot of fun.
1220
02:11:54,160 --> 02:11:58,640
Yeah, looking forward to it. All right, dude, well, thanks for jumping in in the spot. I appreciate
1221
02:11:58,640 --> 02:12:04,000
it. Thanks for everybody for listening. We'll be back next week with another dark overtones. As I
1222
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:07,280
said, the schedule is going to shift around a bit. So I couldn't tell you what's going to be next.
1223
02:12:07,280 --> 02:12:11,840
So let's have to listen to see what we're going to talk about. So thanks again for listening. I'll
1224
02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:19,760
see you all next week. Thanks again, Eric. Yeah, anytime. Thanks so much.