Jon Moss: Matthew has been cycling almost all his life. ⁓ When did you understand that he had a special talent? I think when he was four or five years old. Wow, that early? What was it you were working It's hard. You know, children in Belgium, they are riding a bike with side wheels so you can fall.
Molly Hurford: In today's episode, cycling legend, Adrian Vanderpool joins James start to share some of his favorite stories from his days in the pro peloton to talk about his son cyclocross world champion, Matthew Vanderpool, and to share what he's excited about for this upcoming classic season. Now let's get into this conversation with Adrian. Enjoy it and make sure to hit that subscribe button.
Jon Moss: And it started all at school because the teacher, she called me, he said, why are there still side wheels on his bike? said, yeah, it's possibly crash. said, yeah, but here on the schoolyard, he's taking all the bikes except his one, all the bikes without the side wheels. And it started like that. then when he was five, training wheels, he started doing some small Audrey, it's just such a pleasure to sit down with you ⁓ anytime. It's a good time. And so I'm really looking forward to this. But yeah, it's difficult to fathom just how long and rich ⁓ Audrey your career was from winning monuments like Flanders and Liège, which are very different to the Yellow Jersey for the or the cyclocross championships late in your career. First, I mean, what was the secret for such longevity for keeping motivation for what nearly 20 years really, huh? As a top pro, how do you keep the head and the motivation for that? Yeah, I think it's quite simple. I like to ride the bike. So ⁓ yeah, I'm never... races in the region and then already you saw yet a certain drive. Most of the guys of his age, didn't have that. Also how he get on the bike, get off the bike. Also already changing gears, you know, when you are young, often you are to ride the gear too big or too small. I couldn't find anything wrong with him. He was so young and he was, you explained it to him and thought about it to quit earlier. I had some difficult moments. But yeah, you know, after difficult moments, I had very nice moments afterwards. So yeah, I had a very long career. was almost 20 years and then a certain moment on the road. was a little bit too hard. You know, I was good in the smaller races, but in the big classics. Okay, you have to explain it one time and then it was okay. Just a total natural. Just total natural, huh? Yeah. But, you know, I think it was you that said to me, being having talent and becoming a big professional champion are two different things. And, you know, having the natural talent is one thing. Being able to grow with that, improve, focus, it's all different. Yeah, it didn't work out. So almost the last four years of my career, was almost small races and a lot of cycle crosses in the winter. So and when you are, you know, when you are 40, the best part of cycling, professional cycling is finished. So I think 20 years of pro cycling, was a a nice beginning and a very nice end because the last season was still very good. And When you are young and 10 years, we start 15 years, 15 years. then you are doing races, you're becoming junior. But the way between junior and now, it's in difficult way, you you get 18, have the school could be a problem, know, girlfriends. I was lucky I was not too injured in my career. I some small crashes, not big crashes. So yeah, I think when I stopped it was the right moment. I remember a couple of years ago, I spoke with Greg Van Avermaet, know, when he retired and I said, what made, you know, he was still very strong. He still is actually, but I said, what was, what was the motivation? You know, why did you finally make that decision? He said, you know, when I, when I understood I could never win Tour of Flanders. going out to bars. But all that kind of stuff he didn't do. The school he finished. He said, okay, I finished school and afterwards I gonna try to be a professional. And when you are a professional, are not, you can't go out like other guys or girls from your age, you know. ⁓ Again, just, was no longer in that, in that top three, it was time. And so I think each of each champion comes, especially the big champion to one big races, it becomes a point where it becomes pretty clear. ⁓ but you know, your situation, ⁓ even though maybe you weren't winning monuments, you found new objectives, especially with cyclocross. ⁓ you know, and They go out Saturday, but Sunday you have a cyclocross. So he has to choose. He said, yeah, but when I'm going out, I'm not fresh. It's not possible to ride. But on the other side, you know, when you have some results, it makes the way to get a professional a little bit easier. The motivation. Yeah. It's easier. have the results and you try to do better. And then, yeah, you know, then then And that's also key to longevity is finding new objectives within your career. It might not be winning the biggest races that you won, but finding other things that are really satisfying and giving you new dreams, I guess. Yeah, it's like that because my last year on the road when I tried to do the big races was 96. The year I became world champion. And also in the big races like Tour de France, Paris-Roubaix, I was OK till 200 kilometers. I didn't force him. said, if you like to be a very good side, the cross man, you have to do some road races, not a lot, but some roses. So the category before the juniors he did already, he became the ⁓ champion on the road. And then, then first year of a junior year, you're ready. Came in the selection of the Dutch Federation, did the worlds. And then the second year he was The only problem is that kind of phrases are too 60 to 70. And you know, when you have done a lot of years, you're battling for the victory. That's no problem. But when you are dropped and there is still a group of 100 people in front, it's quite different. And then already after, it was after Paris-Roubaix I said, OK, that these kinds of phrases are too hard now for me. And then I spoke with Jan Raas. Competing with with Matt Peterson. Yeah, I think both of them. They won almost all the races by the juniors, international races, and also became first and second on the world. They became first and second on the ranking by the juniors. And they are still here. Yeah, I mean, it's 1213 years later. They are still at a very high level. So I think it's when you're looking back. who was our director, he said, okay, no problem. You do the small races with the young guys, teach them some things and try to do a couple of winters on the cycle course. And yeah, it went very well. I would say so. mean, you were often on the podium in Worlds, but you finally won it really in the autumn of your career, I guess we can say. ⁓ I always thought of you as being... They must have been working very hard and they must have been serious. Otherwise it is impossible to stay that long and every year getting better on that level. Yeah. We've got a question from Michael. Good to see you, Michael. Did Matthew get his drive from you, Adrie, or elsewhere? We talked a little bit about it, but do you think you gave him some drive as well? No. rather a pioneer. mean, there were certainly others who like Roger de Vlaminck, who once won the world cyclocross championship. But I always thought you were one of the first people to really master a road career and cyclocross career at the same time. Was it difficult to balance those or was it a sort of natural evolution? ⁓ I started when I was a professional, no, as an amateur, I did already do I let him free because when he was young he did several other sports like football, tennis, swimming and we never forced him. He became a cyclist, it's his own choice. Afterwards we gave him a lot of support. I think that's normal but we never forced our children to get in the sport of cycling. a couple of cyclocrosses in the region, but they were only on national level. But then I became professional and then, I could start in the Championships of Holland. I became fifth, sixth in the couple of the first years. And then in 85, our ⁓ director, they selected me for the Worlds. And then my first Worlds, I became second and then said, OK, that's... And the love for both the road and cyclocross, does that come from you? Did you encourage him to do both a lot or was it hard for him to do both? No, in the beginning, the road races are boring, said. But yeah, when you become world champion on the road, I think that changed a little bit because afterwards he became an under-23 in his first year. For me, the winter was a part of bridging the ⁓ winter season. It was too long to only train. You didn't have training camps. So I tried to find something that was not only training for three or four months, but I was looking for some goals. And I found one in Cyclecross. He did win some big races in Belgium. I think also when you go slowly to the winter, he felt that he was becoming stronger, you know? But we always said, okay, when we do summer and winter, we're going to do never more than 60 races in a year. So if you do 30 cycle process, we do 30. But it's interesting because what I recall back in the day ⁓ was there was a lot ⁓ of track guys or cyclocross guys, they would have their winter season and they would be good for some of the February races but by the time the big classics came they were kind of going down and that wasn't your situation really. Yeah I was well known as a rider and trained a lot but I never trained hard. road races and I think when you're gonna I have to look it up between he was 18 and now I think he never did more than 60 races. Okay interesting that's interesting. ⁓ Michael actually started the question but what is the personal characteristic that you have that you see most in Matthew as a cyclist? I didn't have the engine, you know. could six, seven hours was no problem. The problem started when I went out for four hours, full gas. Okay, it was possible, but then in the races it didn't work out. for a long time I I followed my own strategy. I think sometimes it was very good, sometimes it was good. And yeah, I had also some periods it was... It's working hard to ... to win big races. That's the only thing that matters. You know, when he was 25 or 23, they were asking for the Tour de France for a general classification win. And he always said, I'm not interested. It's too hard. Okay, cycling is hard, but you know, he's 1 meter 84. His weight is 77 kilos. was not that good. often my problem was in the summer, you know, then I went a little bit down. With my best to the Francis I did when I was riding with Greg Lemont, then I had something to work for. I had Pedro Delgado, I have something to work for. I ride in the team with Stephen Ropes and Gert-Jan Tönnissen. But I also went to the France and at the start, the first day I... So I said I tried to do where I'm good in and that are the classics and you have seen like. ⁓ I think five years ago and last year in the Tour de France, when the first 10 days, they fit him very well, he's very motivated. When he smells a little chance to win, he's very motivated. It's also the way around, when he said, OK, it's hard, he's not at all motivated. OK. I think it's a good thing. Yeah. I was already thinking, what are we doing here? You know, we had a team. It was better we stay all at home because we couldn't fight for the stage win. We had no general classification. We were just following the bunch. That was it. I can tell you, three weeks following the bunch, mentally it's hard and it takes... You have to know, you know, one of the great things I learned in cycling, which gave me lessons in life, was you have to know your limits, learn your limits, know your limits, push your limits, but respect your limits. Exactly. And that's that's been one of the great lessons for me in my own life. ⁓ And it's on and off the bike. It counts for a lot of people. Yeah. But some people don't understand that always, you know, and it was through cycling that I learned. Mentally, it's long, right? weeks. We were fighting every day. Just to survive. That's no summer vacation. No, no. So I think I had a couple of differences. think four five, okay. Then three, yeah. And there were two I quit. Okay. Because I was... Just too much. Yeah. Okay, in the beginning, you know, the Hilli Stages was okay. But then the last week... I I have two more questions, but John, do we have any other questions from our viewers? So we had one from Harry. This is going back a little bit, rewinding slightly, but we see so many great cyclocross riders who also do well on the road. Why do you think that is? I think, yeah, ⁓ only in the mountains. I finished already the tour so I have nothing to prove. Take the suitcase and go home. Well, know, when you look back on your Palmares, you you won a lot of great races, several monuments and all. But one of the and we spoke about this actually when I visited you this winter. But one of the less known facts is that you actually did manage to win the yellow jersey for a day in the tour. Yeah. And yet it was one of We have more now. In the past we have Pitcock, have Wout van Aert, we have Mathieu, but now you also have Emile Verstringen. I think they have a lot of talent. And also Wout van Aert and Pitcock maybe not, but Mathieu and Verstringen, they started all inside the cross. And later on they discovered they are very good on the road. probably the craziest days in the tour and also for you probably one of the most bittersweet. I mean, you won the jersey, but it was very complicated. don't you just kind of go back over what happened? How did you get the jersey and how did you lose the jersey? Because it was just a crazy story. Yeah, we were battling with our team for the yellow jersey and you know, it was only a question of seconds. So, but I think it all starts with talent. And then a lot of other things. You have to train hard. I try, that's what I told Matthew, try to enjoy your work. That's the only thing that matters. Great. Do we have any others out there, John? Not at the moment. Okay. Well, kind of getting back to longevity because And there was a teammate of me who had the yellow jersey. He took it in the last sprint. So I was virtual in the yellow jersey, but in the last sprint he took the jersey. And then the day after it was the same, battling for the jersey. ⁓ in the Intermedium sprint, was always fourth. I I let it go. I do only one sprint at the end of the stage and he has to be third to take the yellow jersey. So there was one guy in front. You're still in great shape. You still ride what 10, 12,000 miles a year, kilometers, kilometers, is that correct? 10,000 miles here at last year. Just 60,000. Yeah, that's pretty amazing, huh? And you still find you still just when you get up in the morning, you first thought after coffee is what kind of a bicycle ride am I going to have today? What's possible? Is that still like a first question you ask? and I became second in the bunch sprint. So I was first and took the jersey with two seconds. But I was never on the podium after the stage. I think it was a miscalculation or something. Okay. But later on in the evening, they brought us the yellow jersey. So the day after, I was starting in the yellow jersey, but the team, changed tactics completely. When it's nice weather and the roads are dry, then I prefer to do the breakfast, a cup of coffee and then went out for a ride three hours, then 12, 14 o'clock I'm back home and then I eat a little bit and when I have some work to do, I do my work. The other way around, it's quite hard. Work first and afterwards to ride the bike, it's quite hard. But I'm still enjoying it. He said, OK, normally you have to defend the jersey. And Jan said, we do nothing. If there is a group away, let them take 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. We don't write. So there were a group of three in front with Bartó, Legiu and then I think a Spanish guy. And he took 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. And a lot of team were asking why you don't write. said, Rasmus said, it's not written down. If you have the jersey, you have to write. So all the teams became nervous. They start riding because 40 minutes is a lot. And Bordeaux, Vincent Bordeaux took the yellow jersey and I think he lost it on the first, the Saturday before the finish. Yeah, it was a, I think he had 14 days. Was this 1984, I believe, right? that must, I mean, you had yellow and you had to give it away. That must've been very difficult actually in the moment. Yeah, but I, Yeah, that's great. I've got a question, ⁓ if I may add to ⁓ it. I love like the tech and the gear in cycling and the bikes. How have you seen that change since you were starting your career to now? Do you sometimes think, ⁓ my God, wow, this is amazing? Yeah, for sure. ⁓ If you see the bike when I started, it was a very nice bike and everyone was riding a similar bike. The way it is now also. But yeah, you have the clicking, you have the disc brakes, you have the gear changing. It's changed a lot. makes some things make the cycling a lot easier. You know, we missed already a lot of publicity on the podium for the stage. The stage win was OK, but the yellow jersey. then, you know, when you take the yellow jersey the day after in all the newspapers, we missed all of it. yeah, our director was angry and he decided then we followed him. Maybe now because I... I was already satisfied with one day in the yellow jersey, you know, that could be two or three, but the main goal was to take the yellow jersey once in a lifetime for me. Yeah, well, you did it. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. For me, it's still a nice memory. Yeah, and you still have the jersey, as we saw when I came to see it, you know. Well, it's often been said that you only have to wear the yellow jersey for a day to have it for a lifetime. Not but, but most of them, you know, changing gears when everything is well done. Yeah, yeah. Take, take, take. And everything is going well. When I was riding a bike, was a feeling of the hand. You know, it was there was no click. You have to do it by your own. I think that the most important thing for us as a ⁓ not. Yours is a situation where that came true because you did have it for a day and you still have it today. ⁓ I mentioned to you, is, ⁓ Audrey is very special to me because the first time I turned on a television and watched a bicycle race was 1986. And I was working in France that spring because ⁓ bicycle races in the U S just were not happening. ⁓ We couldn't get them on television. And I remember I was just learning about bike racing and I'd been following this. professional rider is the gears. know, 20 years ago, it was hard for people to go to the mountains because they couldn't find the right gear. Now you can climb to heaven with the gears we have now. It's, yeah, it's for our people now who are... enjoying riding the bike or like me, I have plenty of time. There is no problem to go on. Doesn't matter which climb you change gears in the right direction and you ride on it. I think it's yeah. And now the last thing, the tubeless, I think it's also a big issue. And the bigger the bigger ones. Tyres. Perry Neeson's and races like that. And I knew the favorites and Sean Kelly was obviously a big favorite for Flanders. And I turned it on. And the first thing I remember was Steve Bauer, the Canadian was up the road with like five minutes. I said, ⁓ he's got it one, you know? And then they went for a commercial break and all of sudden they didn't talk about Steve anymore. And all of a sudden it's you guys up at the front. And I, I was like, wait, this is a crazy sport. How do you lose five minutes in a commercial, in a television break? Right. ⁓ It's great. Well, they bring a certain stability to these very stiff and light bikes that make it pretty amazing, I think. And it's like they are just so smooth now and fast and stiff. Yeah. But one thing has also changed, know, when you did buy a bike 20 years ago or now, now, But then, you know, everybody was talking about Sean Kelly because this was King Kelly, right? And all of a sudden the sprint comes, it's his sprint to win and you come from almost nowhere and win it. How did that happen? mean, was amazing day. Yeah. That year when the season started, I was doing very well, but I couldn't get the win. And yeah, I think I was very well prepared for the Tour of Flanders. Only I had to fight me in the race because there was a big race on the ⁓ Kopenberg. And then in the final, we came in front and ⁓ you know, I was always watching other riders and try to get in their head. What should they do? And Kelly... If you have a top bike, can almost buy a small car. I mean, the bike, it's extensive, to be honest. it gives you, on the other way around, it gives you so much fun to riding a good bike. And, you know, I'm still like a little child when there is a new bike coming out. from the team and I put it still in the bedroom and watch it. I enjoy a new bike like I was 10 years old. It's a bike day. Yeah. New bike day. That's great. Still a kid in you, Yeah. Right. Just ⁓ I got really one last question myself, you know, because for the last few years, you've been ⁓ an Ingamba trip leader, which has been just tremendous for us. For sure, was normally the fastest guy, but I think that's already mistake one. Never because we were three with the error was Steve Bauer and the flip from the brand and me. But it's after a race or after 270 kilometres. So a lot can happen. And then I said, OK, point two, I start to sprint very, very long sprint. And then I had to play if I I stopped. And it's finished. And then at 300 meters I stopped and he has no choice. had to go. then Sean passed me and I stayed in the wheel. And then the last 50 meters I passed him again. a couple of times I beat Sean in the sprint because two years later in 88 I was third. He was fourth. This year you're going to be doing what? Three of our trips, right? Milan, San Remo, Flanders and your favorite, Roubaix, obviously. ⁓ How did you get involved with Ingambas exactly? And I think you were doing some cycling tours a little bit before already. Yeah, on my own name. And an old guy who was involved in Ingambas, Frank. So there were two in front, but normally he was faster. But you know, sprint in a big group, it's not the same as a sprint head to head. It's different. It's different. Especially after 260k. have to say, he did a lot of work the last 30 or 40 kilometers. ⁓ So, and you guys are good friends. mean, you were fierce competitors, but always very respectful of each other, and you're good friends today. He's a friend and that's the way we start. Last year we did for the first time we did Tour of Fountains and Paris-Roubaix, you know, two monuments. And I think last year it was very nice because for the two events you do more or less a program that is similar. So and I have a very good relationship with the Vélodrome in You've told this story many times and he doesn't hold it against you for taking away the one chance he had for Flanders, He has won a lot. yeah, Tour de Flanders was his race. Yeah. But he never won it. And I believe Claude Crickillion was with you that He missed two races, I think, on his Palmers. World Championships and Tour de Flanders. in Roubaix so we can finish there. You can take a shower in the old showers, you know, when the iconic showers. ⁓ Yeah, I think it's. It's it's something quite different, for example, when you're doing and climb like all of us. To to to to get on the the couples in in the last year and. ⁓ A rider like him, deserves the Tour de France and he deserves the worlds. I used to ride with him in Paris sometimes because he would come over for Eurosport. ⁓ And so how many classics did you win? And I think he said eight. And then he paused for a moment and said, but I just count the monuments. most of us, there are a lot of great classics out there, but for him, there's only five. we were talking about, we did some parts of Tour de Flanders, oh, they are really bad, these cobblestones, and did that, but said, wait, till we do some parts of Roubaix. They're the cobbles, they put them in the ground, not on knees, but they drop them from an airplane. And that's it. So we have road, but they, after we did, yeah, they were surprised. and that's all he when he counted his classics. ⁓ Speaking of other classics, you also won Amstel Gold Race, which is ⁓ your national classic. It's not a monument, it's a huge race, especially for you guys. ⁓ But I've always been curious because you're Dutch, but you've lived most of your career in Belgium. ⁓ You've won the Tour of Flanders, the biggest Flemish race. You won Amstel, your country's biggest race, but you're They never thought that it was possible to write on cobblestones like that, you know? And I think it's also Flanders. It's a great experience for... If you have never done it, it's a great experience. Yeah, you have to do it. Then afterwards you can talk about it. You have to make it up the Kopenberg without putting your foot on the ground. You know, you're half Dutch, half Belgian. Which of those races is more... Counts more for you or are you proud of stuff? ⁓ The most interesting race for me is Paris-Roubaix. And then you know you've paid the Which is hard. It's hard. When it's dry, it's OK. But it's still hard when it's wet. It's quite difficult. And I saw today a little film when Matthew was winning in Flanders. When the day when it was wet, only three riders. That's a really special race. If you do the Tour of Flanders, you start already in three weeks. start with the Nieuwsbrat, you start Kuurne, you have Waddengem, you have Heidelbeke. In that kind of races, you do a lot of the same climbs. So the Tour de Flanders is a little bit similar to them, but 70 kilometres longer. And that makes it really hard. In Paris-Roubaix, you only pass there, professional riders to get up. It was Mathieu, Jurgensen and Matt Spedersen. And all the rest had to get up by feet. By the way, remember the first time I did the... I did win Flanders, I had to walk also. Also, crazy. The first time I did the Kopenberg, I was behind the team Motorola car. We were ahead of the race and we got about halfway up and they stopped. one time in a year and sometimes when the Tour de France is passing. So the most sections of cobblestones they are open for one ride in a year. For me it's still special. I remember ⁓ Tom Boonen told me the same thing and he retired ⁓ after. I said you're and all of sudden the car starts sliding backwards. They got out and said, you have to go back down because this car is not going up. That's how steep it went and crazy it is. You know, you're Belgian, Flanders is your biggest race. You've won Flanders, you've won Roubaix. Which one? You know, he said the same thing. He said, for me, it's Roubaix. said, Flanders, we go over the same climbs. So it's changing a bit. Now they're trying to make each one of those races more special, right? ⁓ But yeah, from Het Nieuwsblad on, a lot of those roads and those climbs they're covering, said, but Roubaix, it's just once. And the Kabels on Roubaix are a whole nother story. It's just not at all the same game. But Amstel or Flanders? This was my question. Flanders. Flanders was ⁓ sentimentally morphine. Okay. Yeah. I think it's also more known by the cycle family than the Amstel, you know. Yeah. Amstel is a great race, it's already 50 times organized. But yeah, Flanders is... Like Charles said, it's a monument. Yeah, it is. It's very special. ⁓ Let's go back a little bit to your cyclocross, because ⁓ it was just that was sort of your last great victory. mean, you were always good and often on the podium, but you always came up a little short. And finally, at the end of your career, you managed to win that one. I believe is the jersey behind you? Yeah. Is that that? Is that your world champ? That's the one. That's it. Well, why did it take you so long? The first time I was really close with Klaus-Peter Tauer in 1985, but I was so surprised I was riding there in front of all the big names that I was thinking, okay, don't take any risk. We're going to see next year. then I will be more prepared. But it took me 10 more years to get the jersey. often there was a rider really strongly. I mean, when you are one minute behind, you have nothing to say. And I lost one time, I lost in the sprint in Holland by Simonet. He was one of the fastest guys in the peloton. Yeah, luckily after several ⁓ second places and third places in Very nice. Well, I hope to join you on some of these trips just to hear more of your stories. 96, it was the day. should be in Paris, in Montreux. Yeah, it was great. Everything that day went well. Starting in the morning when I get out of bed till we go to sleep, that day I couldn't find anything that wasn't okay. Yeah. I remember, you remember the French writer, Gilbert DuClos-Lassalle. because it's so wonderful speaking with you. obviously. he, his race was Roubaix, right? And he, think he got ⁓ second, maybe he right very early in his career and he was chasing that victory for the rest of his career. And it only happened in the last two years. He won it twice in a row. And at the time he was teammates with Greg Lamont on the GAN team. And Greg said to him, know, actually having Having that dream come true so late in your career is maybe the best thing you could ever ask for because everything comes together. Whereas when you win early, you start to take it for granted. But when you realize after 10 years, 15 years of trying to reach that thing, when you finally get that dream, it's really, really special. Yeah, it's right. I was fighting for it and I was always quite close. But yeah. I think also my career would be different without the jersey. Now I'm very proud of all the third and second places. But that day it could be so also when and then you are known as the always to be the number two. So but yeah, I'm very happy that I at least after 11 years I won the jersey and then afterwards I had four more years to go. I was really... It was not only the jersey I was very proud of, also the season after I won, so 96, 97 in the winter, it was my best winter in the jersey. That's special. It does something with me or with the riders who's wearing the World Champions jersey. Yeah. All right, I'm going to ask you a question I'm sure you've never been asked before.
Molly Hurford: In today's episode, cycling legend, Adrian Vanderpool joins James start to share some of his favorite stories from his days in the pro peloton to talk about his son cyclocross world champion, Matthew Vanderpool, and to share what he's excited about for this upcoming classic season. Now let's get into this conversation with Adrian. Enjoy it and make sure to hit that subscribe button.
Jon Moss: And it started all at school because the teacher, she called me, he said, why are there still side wheels on his bike? said, yeah, it's possibly crash. said, yeah, but here on the schoolyard, he's taking all the bikes except his one, all the bikes without the side wheels. And it started like that. then when he was five, training wheels, he started doing some small Audrey, it's just such a pleasure to sit down with you ⁓ anytime. It's a good time. And so I'm really looking forward to this. But yeah, it's difficult to fathom just how long and rich ⁓ Audrey your career was from winning monuments like Flanders and Liège, which are very different to the Yellow Jersey for the or the cyclocross championships late in your career. First, I mean, what was the secret for such longevity for keeping motivation for what nearly 20 years really, huh? As a top pro, how do you keep the head and the motivation for that? Yeah, I think it's quite simple. I like to ride the bike. So ⁓ yeah, I'm never... races in the region and then already you saw yet a certain drive. Most of the guys of his age, didn't have that. Also how he get on the bike, get off the bike. Also already changing gears, you know, when you are young, often you are to ride the gear too big or too small. I couldn't find anything wrong with him. He was so young and he was, you explained it to him and thought about it to quit earlier. I had some difficult moments. But yeah, you know, after difficult moments, I had very nice moments afterwards. So yeah, I had a very long career. was almost 20 years and then a certain moment on the road. was a little bit too hard. You know, I was good in the smaller races, but in the big classics. Okay, you have to explain it one time and then it was okay. Just a total natural. Just total natural, huh? Yeah. But, you know, I think it was you that said to me, being having talent and becoming a big professional champion are two different things. And, you know, having the natural talent is one thing. Being able to grow with that, improve, focus, it's all different. Yeah, it didn't work out. So almost the last four years of my career, was almost small races and a lot of cycle crosses in the winter. So and when you are, you know, when you are 40, the best part of cycling, professional cycling is finished. So I think 20 years of pro cycling, was a a nice beginning and a very nice end because the last season was still very good. And When you are young and 10 years, we start 15 years, 15 years. then you are doing races, you're becoming junior. But the way between junior and now, it's in difficult way, you you get 18, have the school could be a problem, know, girlfriends. I was lucky I was not too injured in my career. I some small crashes, not big crashes. So yeah, I think when I stopped it was the right moment. I remember a couple of years ago, I spoke with Greg Van Avermaet, know, when he retired and I said, what made, you know, he was still very strong. He still is actually, but I said, what was, what was the motivation? You know, why did you finally make that decision? He said, you know, when I, when I understood I could never win Tour of Flanders. going out to bars. But all that kind of stuff he didn't do. The school he finished. He said, okay, I finished school and afterwards I gonna try to be a professional. And when you are a professional, are not, you can't go out like other guys or girls from your age, you know. ⁓ Again, just, was no longer in that, in that top three, it was time. And so I think each of each champion comes, especially the big champion to one big races, it becomes a point where it becomes pretty clear. ⁓ but you know, your situation, ⁓ even though maybe you weren't winning monuments, you found new objectives, especially with cyclocross. ⁓ you know, and They go out Saturday, but Sunday you have a cyclocross. So he has to choose. He said, yeah, but when I'm going out, I'm not fresh. It's not possible to ride. But on the other side, you know, when you have some results, it makes the way to get a professional a little bit easier. The motivation. Yeah. It's easier. have the results and you try to do better. And then, yeah, you know, then then And that's also key to longevity is finding new objectives within your career. It might not be winning the biggest races that you won, but finding other things that are really satisfying and giving you new dreams, I guess. Yeah, it's like that because my last year on the road when I tried to do the big races was 96. The year I became world champion. And also in the big races like Tour de France, Paris-Roubaix, I was OK till 200 kilometers. I didn't force him. said, if you like to be a very good side, the cross man, you have to do some road races, not a lot, but some roses. So the category before the juniors he did already, he became the ⁓ champion on the road. And then, then first year of a junior year, you're ready. Came in the selection of the Dutch Federation, did the worlds. And then the second year he was The only problem is that kind of phrases are too 60 to 70. And you know, when you have done a lot of years, you're battling for the victory. That's no problem. But when you are dropped and there is still a group of 100 people in front, it's quite different. And then already after, it was after Paris-Roubaix I said, OK, that these kinds of phrases are too hard now for me. And then I spoke with Jan Raas. Competing with with Matt Peterson. Yeah, I think both of them. They won almost all the races by the juniors, international races, and also became first and second on the world. They became first and second on the ranking by the juniors. And they are still here. Yeah, I mean, it's 1213 years later. They are still at a very high level. So I think it's when you're looking back. who was our director, he said, okay, no problem. You do the small races with the young guys, teach them some things and try to do a couple of winters on the cycle course. And yeah, it went very well. I would say so. mean, you were often on the podium in Worlds, but you finally won it really in the autumn of your career, I guess we can say. ⁓ I always thought of you as being... They must have been working very hard and they must have been serious. Otherwise it is impossible to stay that long and every year getting better on that level. Yeah. We've got a question from Michael. Good to see you, Michael. Did Matthew get his drive from you, Adrie, or elsewhere? We talked a little bit about it, but do you think you gave him some drive as well? No. rather a pioneer. mean, there were certainly others who like Roger de Vlaminck, who once won the world cyclocross championship. But I always thought you were one of the first people to really master a road career and cyclocross career at the same time. Was it difficult to balance those or was it a sort of natural evolution? ⁓ I started when I was a professional, no, as an amateur, I did already do I let him free because when he was young he did several other sports like football, tennis, swimming and we never forced him. He became a cyclist, it's his own choice. Afterwards we gave him a lot of support. I think that's normal but we never forced our children to get in the sport of cycling. a couple of cyclocrosses in the region, but they were only on national level. But then I became professional and then, I could start in the Championships of Holland. I became fifth, sixth in the couple of the first years. And then in 85, our ⁓ director, they selected me for the Worlds. And then my first Worlds, I became second and then said, OK, that's... And the love for both the road and cyclocross, does that come from you? Did you encourage him to do both a lot or was it hard for him to do both? No, in the beginning, the road races are boring, said. But yeah, when you become world champion on the road, I think that changed a little bit because afterwards he became an under-23 in his first year. For me, the winter was a part of bridging the ⁓ winter season. It was too long to only train. You didn't have training camps. So I tried to find something that was not only training for three or four months, but I was looking for some goals. And I found one in Cyclecross. He did win some big races in Belgium. I think also when you go slowly to the winter, he felt that he was becoming stronger, you know? But we always said, okay, when we do summer and winter, we're going to do never more than 60 races in a year. So if you do 30 cycle process, we do 30. But it's interesting because what I recall back in the day ⁓ was there was a lot ⁓ of track guys or cyclocross guys, they would have their winter season and they would be good for some of the February races but by the time the big classics came they were kind of going down and that wasn't your situation really. Yeah I was well known as a rider and trained a lot but I never trained hard. road races and I think when you're gonna I have to look it up between he was 18 and now I think he never did more than 60 races. Okay interesting that's interesting. ⁓ Michael actually started the question but what is the personal characteristic that you have that you see most in Matthew as a cyclist? I didn't have the engine, you know. could six, seven hours was no problem. The problem started when I went out for four hours, full gas. Okay, it was possible, but then in the races it didn't work out. for a long time I I followed my own strategy. I think sometimes it was very good, sometimes it was good. And yeah, I had also some periods it was... It's working hard to ... to win big races. That's the only thing that matters. You know, when he was 25 or 23, they were asking for the Tour de France for a general classification win. And he always said, I'm not interested. It's too hard. Okay, cycling is hard, but you know, he's 1 meter 84. His weight is 77 kilos. was not that good. often my problem was in the summer, you know, then I went a little bit down. With my best to the Francis I did when I was riding with Greg Lemont, then I had something to work for. I had Pedro Delgado, I have something to work for. I ride in the team with Stephen Ropes and Gert-Jan Tönnissen. But I also went to the France and at the start, the first day I... So I said I tried to do where I'm good in and that are the classics and you have seen like. ⁓ I think five years ago and last year in the Tour de France, when the first 10 days, they fit him very well, he's very motivated. When he smells a little chance to win, he's very motivated. It's also the way around, when he said, OK, it's hard, he's not at all motivated. OK. I think it's a good thing. Yeah. I was already thinking, what are we doing here? You know, we had a team. It was better we stay all at home because we couldn't fight for the stage win. We had no general classification. We were just following the bunch. That was it. I can tell you, three weeks following the bunch, mentally it's hard and it takes... You have to know, you know, one of the great things I learned in cycling, which gave me lessons in life, was you have to know your limits, learn your limits, know your limits, push your limits, but respect your limits. Exactly. And that's that's been one of the great lessons for me in my own life. ⁓ And it's on and off the bike. It counts for a lot of people. Yeah. But some people don't understand that always, you know, and it was through cycling that I learned. Mentally, it's long, right? weeks. We were fighting every day. Just to survive. That's no summer vacation. No, no. So I think I had a couple of differences. think four five, okay. Then three, yeah. And there were two I quit. Okay. Because I was... Just too much. Yeah. Okay, in the beginning, you know, the Hilli Stages was okay. But then the last week... I I have two more questions, but John, do we have any other questions from our viewers? So we had one from Harry. This is going back a little bit, rewinding slightly, but we see so many great cyclocross riders who also do well on the road. Why do you think that is? I think, yeah, ⁓ only in the mountains. I finished already the tour so I have nothing to prove. Take the suitcase and go home. Well, know, when you look back on your Palmares, you you won a lot of great races, several monuments and all. But one of the and we spoke about this actually when I visited you this winter. But one of the less known facts is that you actually did manage to win the yellow jersey for a day in the tour. Yeah. And yet it was one of We have more now. In the past we have Pitcock, have Wout van Aert, we have Mathieu, but now you also have Emile Verstringen. I think they have a lot of talent. And also Wout van Aert and Pitcock maybe not, but Mathieu and Verstringen, they started all inside the cross. And later on they discovered they are very good on the road. probably the craziest days in the tour and also for you probably one of the most bittersweet. I mean, you won the jersey, but it was very complicated. don't you just kind of go back over what happened? How did you get the jersey and how did you lose the jersey? Because it was just a crazy story. Yeah, we were battling with our team for the yellow jersey and you know, it was only a question of seconds. So, but I think it all starts with talent. And then a lot of other things. You have to train hard. I try, that's what I told Matthew, try to enjoy your work. That's the only thing that matters. Great. Do we have any others out there, John? Not at the moment. Okay. Well, kind of getting back to longevity because And there was a teammate of me who had the yellow jersey. He took it in the last sprint. So I was virtual in the yellow jersey, but in the last sprint he took the jersey. And then the day after it was the same, battling for the jersey. ⁓ in the Intermedium sprint, was always fourth. I I let it go. I do only one sprint at the end of the stage and he has to be third to take the yellow jersey. So there was one guy in front. You're still in great shape. You still ride what 10, 12,000 miles a year, kilometers, kilometers, is that correct? 10,000 miles here at last year. Just 60,000. Yeah, that's pretty amazing, huh? And you still find you still just when you get up in the morning, you first thought after coffee is what kind of a bicycle ride am I going to have today? What's possible? Is that still like a first question you ask? and I became second in the bunch sprint. So I was first and took the jersey with two seconds. But I was never on the podium after the stage. I think it was a miscalculation or something. Okay. But later on in the evening, they brought us the yellow jersey. So the day after, I was starting in the yellow jersey, but the team, changed tactics completely. When it's nice weather and the roads are dry, then I prefer to do the breakfast, a cup of coffee and then went out for a ride three hours, then 12, 14 o'clock I'm back home and then I eat a little bit and when I have some work to do, I do my work. The other way around, it's quite hard. Work first and afterwards to ride the bike, it's quite hard. But I'm still enjoying it. He said, OK, normally you have to defend the jersey. And Jan said, we do nothing. If there is a group away, let them take 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. We don't write. So there were a group of three in front with Bartó, Legiu and then I think a Spanish guy. And he took 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes. And a lot of team were asking why you don't write. said, Rasmus said, it's not written down. If you have the jersey, you have to write. So all the teams became nervous. They start riding because 40 minutes is a lot. And Bordeaux, Vincent Bordeaux took the yellow jersey and I think he lost it on the first, the Saturday before the finish. Yeah, it was a, I think he had 14 days. Was this 1984, I believe, right? that must, I mean, you had yellow and you had to give it away. That must've been very difficult actually in the moment. Yeah, but I, Yeah, that's great. I've got a question, ⁓ if I may add to ⁓ it. I love like the tech and the gear in cycling and the bikes. How have you seen that change since you were starting your career to now? Do you sometimes think, ⁓ my God, wow, this is amazing? Yeah, for sure. ⁓ If you see the bike when I started, it was a very nice bike and everyone was riding a similar bike. The way it is now also. But yeah, you have the clicking, you have the disc brakes, you have the gear changing. It's changed a lot. makes some things make the cycling a lot easier. You know, we missed already a lot of publicity on the podium for the stage. The stage win was OK, but the yellow jersey. then, you know, when you take the yellow jersey the day after in all the newspapers, we missed all of it. yeah, our director was angry and he decided then we followed him. Maybe now because I... I was already satisfied with one day in the yellow jersey, you know, that could be two or three, but the main goal was to take the yellow jersey once in a lifetime for me. Yeah, well, you did it. That's beautiful. Yeah, yeah. For me, it's still a nice memory. Yeah, and you still have the jersey, as we saw when I came to see it, you know. Well, it's often been said that you only have to wear the yellow jersey for a day to have it for a lifetime. Not but, but most of them, you know, changing gears when everything is well done. Yeah, yeah. Take, take, take. And everything is going well. When I was riding a bike, was a feeling of the hand. You know, it was there was no click. You have to do it by your own. I think that the most important thing for us as a ⁓ not. Yours is a situation where that came true because you did have it for a day and you still have it today. ⁓ I mentioned to you, is, ⁓ Audrey is very special to me because the first time I turned on a television and watched a bicycle race was 1986. And I was working in France that spring because ⁓ bicycle races in the U S just were not happening. ⁓ We couldn't get them on television. And I remember I was just learning about bike racing and I'd been following this. professional rider is the gears. know, 20 years ago, it was hard for people to go to the mountains because they couldn't find the right gear. Now you can climb to heaven with the gears we have now. It's, yeah, it's for our people now who are... enjoying riding the bike or like me, I have plenty of time. There is no problem to go on. Doesn't matter which climb you change gears in the right direction and you ride on it. I think it's yeah. And now the last thing, the tubeless, I think it's also a big issue. And the bigger the bigger ones. Tyres. Perry Neeson's and races like that. And I knew the favorites and Sean Kelly was obviously a big favorite for Flanders. And I turned it on. And the first thing I remember was Steve Bauer, the Canadian was up the road with like five minutes. I said, ⁓ he's got it one, you know? And then they went for a commercial break and all of sudden they didn't talk about Steve anymore. And all of a sudden it's you guys up at the front. And I, I was like, wait, this is a crazy sport. How do you lose five minutes in a commercial, in a television break? Right. ⁓ It's great. Well, they bring a certain stability to these very stiff and light bikes that make it pretty amazing, I think. And it's like they are just so smooth now and fast and stiff. Yeah. But one thing has also changed, know, when you did buy a bike 20 years ago or now, now, But then, you know, everybody was talking about Sean Kelly because this was King Kelly, right? And all of a sudden the sprint comes, it's his sprint to win and you come from almost nowhere and win it. How did that happen? mean, was amazing day. Yeah. That year when the season started, I was doing very well, but I couldn't get the win. And yeah, I think I was very well prepared for the Tour of Flanders. Only I had to fight me in the race because there was a big race on the ⁓ Kopenberg. And then in the final, we came in front and ⁓ you know, I was always watching other riders and try to get in their head. What should they do? And Kelly... If you have a top bike, can almost buy a small car. I mean, the bike, it's extensive, to be honest. it gives you, on the other way around, it gives you so much fun to riding a good bike. And, you know, I'm still like a little child when there is a new bike coming out. from the team and I put it still in the bedroom and watch it. I enjoy a new bike like I was 10 years old. It's a bike day. Yeah. New bike day. That's great. Still a kid in you, Yeah. Right. Just ⁓ I got really one last question myself, you know, because for the last few years, you've been ⁓ an Ingamba trip leader, which has been just tremendous for us. For sure, was normally the fastest guy, but I think that's already mistake one. Never because we were three with the error was Steve Bauer and the flip from the brand and me. But it's after a race or after 270 kilometres. So a lot can happen. And then I said, OK, point two, I start to sprint very, very long sprint. And then I had to play if I I stopped. And it's finished. And then at 300 meters I stopped and he has no choice. had to go. then Sean passed me and I stayed in the wheel. And then the last 50 meters I passed him again. a couple of times I beat Sean in the sprint because two years later in 88 I was third. He was fourth. This year you're going to be doing what? Three of our trips, right? Milan, San Remo, Flanders and your favorite, Roubaix, obviously. ⁓ How did you get involved with Ingambas exactly? And I think you were doing some cycling tours a little bit before already. Yeah, on my own name. And an old guy who was involved in Ingambas, Frank. So there were two in front, but normally he was faster. But you know, sprint in a big group, it's not the same as a sprint head to head. It's different. It's different. Especially after 260k. have to say, he did a lot of work the last 30 or 40 kilometers. ⁓ So, and you guys are good friends. mean, you were fierce competitors, but always very respectful of each other, and you're good friends today. He's a friend and that's the way we start. Last year we did for the first time we did Tour of Fountains and Paris-Roubaix, you know, two monuments. And I think last year it was very nice because for the two events you do more or less a program that is similar. So and I have a very good relationship with the Vélodrome in You've told this story many times and he doesn't hold it against you for taking away the one chance he had for Flanders, He has won a lot. yeah, Tour de Flanders was his race. Yeah. But he never won it. And I believe Claude Crickillion was with you that He missed two races, I think, on his Palmers. World Championships and Tour de Flanders. in Roubaix so we can finish there. You can take a shower in the old showers, you know, when the iconic showers. ⁓ Yeah, I think it's. It's it's something quite different, for example, when you're doing and climb like all of us. To to to to get on the the couples in in the last year and. ⁓ A rider like him, deserves the Tour de France and he deserves the worlds. I used to ride with him in Paris sometimes because he would come over for Eurosport. ⁓ And so how many classics did you win? And I think he said eight. And then he paused for a moment and said, but I just count the monuments. most of us, there are a lot of great classics out there, but for him, there's only five. we were talking about, we did some parts of Tour de Flanders, oh, they are really bad, these cobblestones, and did that, but said, wait, till we do some parts of Roubaix. They're the cobbles, they put them in the ground, not on knees, but they drop them from an airplane. And that's it. So we have road, but they, after we did, yeah, they were surprised. and that's all he when he counted his classics. ⁓ Speaking of other classics, you also won Amstel Gold Race, which is ⁓ your national classic. It's not a monument, it's a huge race, especially for you guys. ⁓ But I've always been curious because you're Dutch, but you've lived most of your career in Belgium. ⁓ You've won the Tour of Flanders, the biggest Flemish race. You won Amstel, your country's biggest race, but you're They never thought that it was possible to write on cobblestones like that, you know? And I think it's also Flanders. It's a great experience for... If you have never done it, it's a great experience. Yeah, you have to do it. Then afterwards you can talk about it. You have to make it up the Kopenberg without putting your foot on the ground. You know, you're half Dutch, half Belgian. Which of those races is more... Counts more for you or are you proud of stuff? ⁓ The most interesting race for me is Paris-Roubaix. And then you know you've paid the Which is hard. It's hard. When it's dry, it's OK. But it's still hard when it's wet. It's quite difficult. And I saw today a little film when Matthew was winning in Flanders. When the day when it was wet, only three riders. That's a really special race. If you do the Tour of Flanders, you start already in three weeks. start with the Nieuwsbrat, you start Kuurne, you have Waddengem, you have Heidelbeke. In that kind of races, you do a lot of the same climbs. So the Tour de Flanders is a little bit similar to them, but 70 kilometres longer. And that makes it really hard. In Paris-Roubaix, you only pass there, professional riders to get up. It was Mathieu, Jurgensen and Matt Spedersen. And all the rest had to get up by feet. By the way, remember the first time I did the... I did win Flanders, I had to walk also. Also, crazy. The first time I did the Kopenberg, I was behind the team Motorola car. We were ahead of the race and we got about halfway up and they stopped. one time in a year and sometimes when the Tour de France is passing. So the most sections of cobblestones they are open for one ride in a year. For me it's still special. I remember ⁓ Tom Boonen told me the same thing and he retired ⁓ after. I said you're and all of sudden the car starts sliding backwards. They got out and said, you have to go back down because this car is not going up. That's how steep it went and crazy it is. You know, you're Belgian, Flanders is your biggest race. You've won Flanders, you've won Roubaix. Which one? You know, he said the same thing. He said, for me, it's Roubaix. said, Flanders, we go over the same climbs. So it's changing a bit. Now they're trying to make each one of those races more special, right? ⁓ But yeah, from Het Nieuwsblad on, a lot of those roads and those climbs they're covering, said, but Roubaix, it's just once. And the Kabels on Roubaix are a whole nother story. It's just not at all the same game. But Amstel or Flanders? This was my question. Flanders. Flanders was ⁓ sentimentally morphine. Okay. Yeah. I think it's also more known by the cycle family than the Amstel, you know. Yeah. Amstel is a great race, it's already 50 times organized. But yeah, Flanders is... Like Charles said, it's a monument. Yeah, it is. It's very special. ⁓ Let's go back a little bit to your cyclocross, because ⁓ it was just that was sort of your last great victory. mean, you were always good and often on the podium, but you always came up a little short. And finally, at the end of your career, you managed to win that one. I believe is the jersey behind you? Yeah. Is that that? Is that your world champ? That's the one. That's it. Well, why did it take you so long? The first time I was really close with Klaus-Peter Tauer in 1985, but I was so surprised I was riding there in front of all the big names that I was thinking, okay, don't take any risk. We're going to see next year. then I will be more prepared. But it took me 10 more years to get the jersey. often there was a rider really strongly. I mean, when you are one minute behind, you have nothing to say. And I lost one time, I lost in the sprint in Holland by Simonet. He was one of the fastest guys in the peloton. Yeah, luckily after several ⁓ second places and third places in Very nice. Well, I hope to join you on some of these trips just to hear more of your stories. 96, it was the day. should be in Paris, in Montreux. Yeah, it was great. Everything that day went well. Starting in the morning when I get out of bed till we go to sleep, that day I couldn't find anything that wasn't okay. Yeah. I remember, you remember the French writer, Gilbert DuClos-Lassalle. because it's so wonderful speaking with you. obviously. he, his race was Roubaix, right? And he, think he got ⁓ second, maybe he right very early in his career and he was chasing that victory for the rest of his career. And it only happened in the last two years. He won it twice in a row. And at the time he was teammates with Greg Lamont on the GAN team. And Greg said to him, know, actually having Having that dream come true so late in your career is maybe the best thing you could ever ask for because everything comes together. Whereas when you win early, you start to take it for granted. But when you realize after 10 years, 15 years of trying to reach that thing, when you finally get that dream, it's really, really special. Yeah, it's right. I was fighting for it and I was always quite close. But yeah. I think also my career would be different without the jersey. Now I'm very proud of all the third and second places. But that day it could be so also when and then you are known as the always to be the number two. So but yeah, I'm very happy that I at least after 11 years I won the jersey and then afterwards I had four more years to go. I was really... It was not only the jersey I was very proud of, also the season after I won, so 96, 97 in the winter, it was my best winter in the jersey. That's special. It does something with me or with the riders who's wearing the World Champions jersey. Yeah. All right, I'm going to ask you a question I'm sure you've never been asked before.
