Stop Targeting, Start Listening: The Future Of Digital Marketing - Bartira Pontes - CX Chat 020

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Hello there, my name is Martin Henley and this is episode 20 of the CX Education Podcast where we are working to connect, empower and motivate CX leaders to build better businesses. And today we have a guest and we are blessed to have her because she found us all the way from Brazil. She has a Bachelor's Degree in Advertising from the Fundacion Armando Alvarez Ponteado.
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I've probably butchered that pronunciation. During her digital media career, she has worked with brands including Deloitte, Sony, Disney, ESPN, Globosat, Red Bull, Intel, IBM, General Electric, Unilever, the Brazilian Federal Bank and Gizmodo.
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Working for those branches achieved a considerable amount of success, including reducing the cost per lead in B2B campaigns through digital media strategies by as much as 90%, developing a methodology to improve the company's online presence, optimizing internal communication, employee engagement and employer brand value, and training over 1,000 marketing and communication professionals.
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Today's guest came to our attention when she commented on one of our customer experience, employee experience culture posts, stating that the client perceives the company as a whole and the best marketing or sales input you can get is a great customer experience. We certainly believe in that. She has been a teacher at the Sao Paulo Digital School for more than 14 years and has been running the business that she founded, BRP Media, for more than 14 years.
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for almost 10 years. Today's guest is an entrepreneur, teacher, improv comedian and tarot card reader. Today's guest is Bartira Pontes. Good evening, Bartira Pontes. How are you? Good evening, Martin. Nice to meet you here. I'm so excited. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you.
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Yeah, you are very, very welcome. Because if what people need to know is if you go to all of the trouble not to comment on one of our many, many, many, many, many, many posts, but to actually find our post somewhere and then create a brand new post on LinkedIn about it.
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and say exactly what we think like what was exactly that you said is that customers perceive the business as a whole 100% everyone in the business is delivering marketing and sales and experience then a hundred percent we're gonna become friends that's what's gonna happen everyone needs to know that it's not exclusive to you oh lovely lovely it was like that I was in this thinking about how marketing could
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give us a little more, a little more than awareness, a little more than engagement. And it came to me customer experience. This is what a marketing is next step. All the accents of marketing, what do you think?
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I think, yeah. Well, I think too much. I'm too opinionated is my problem. And I've got a lot of issues with all of these things. But it seems to me in the traditional sense, the way we're supposed to believe marketing is it's about the four Ps, product, price, placement, promotion.
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But we don't ever get to get involved in the product. They're not going to let us anywhere near that. And we don't ever get to get involved with the price. So really, there's a lot more that marketing should be doing if we believe what we're supposed to believe is the definition. And there's no M in the four Ps. So there's no market, which is really what we do, surely, is understand markets. So once you understand a market, then you can develop a product, then you can price it, then you can promote it, then you can place it, then...
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you know, all of these things. So yeah, um, I've, I've got opinions on all of these things, but we're not necessarily here. Yeah. Yeah. I think there is a P missing as well.
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which is something that brings us together. People. Yeah, 100%. People. Yeah, there's things. But for me, that P is in the market. So that P is like, that's what markets are, is people. So there's the seven P's, isn't there? So they get people, and I can't remember the other two things they get in the seven P's. But anyway, we're not here to talk about my opinions, because I've got lots of opportunity to talk about my opinions. We're here to talk about you and your experience.
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And what's interesting to me is, well, there's a number of things that are interesting to me about you. But what's interesting to me is, like me, I think you're coming late to the idea of customer experience. This didn't really get formalized in my mind. You're not coming as late as me. I started thinking about this maybe four or five years ago formally because people asked me to produce courses. Like you, I'm a marketing person.
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Not like you. I'm a very direct marketing person, so I don't have your advertising experience. But that's one of the things that interests me. How on earth do you go to university to do a degree in advertising? What goes through your mind that you find yourself at university...
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And it was a long degree. Was your degree long or it took you a long time? Imagine thinking about marketing for the duration of the time that you're studying for your degree. So that's the thing that I'm interested in. How on earth did you end up studying advertising? Yeah, that sounds a bit odd, but I know that before advertising, there is communications, social communications.
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This is the basis of the knowledge. And you grow advertising from there. So you need to understand communications. This is what amazes me more, how to communicate the basis really like message and channels and one people, one person, another person, you know, the basis.
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Because sometimes we miss that. We don't understand that it's one person talking to another person through channel, messages. These four things, the simple structure for
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Okay. Sorry, I am interested in that. But before we get to that, I'm trying to imagine the little girl, Batira, growing up in Brazil. And I did a politics degree because for some reason I ended up doing a politics A-level, like sixth form class,
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thing and I did quite well on some of my essays and then they said oh you're good at politics and then like politics is what you do when you don't really know what you're going to do but when I did that advertising wasn't an option but I can't imagine why like little Bartera decides at what point little Bartera decides is what I'm interested in is advertising and I'm going to study I'm going to get a degree in advertising yes how what
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did that come to me? I think I love TV. I love TV. I love media. That's why I am specialized in channels. That's why I said to you that I love communication. Okay, so advertising. And I love to... I'm very...
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I like to fight, fight of ideas. I like to convince. I like to tell you that what I'm saying is the truth, is the battle for you. It's everything that you needed and you didn't want. So I had two ways. I could go to be a lawyer, right? Okay. And I could be an advertised woman.
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And I became, because I'm creative and I'm completely crazy and I didn't want to go buy the book. So I decided to go for advertising. That's why little Bartira said I could be a lawyer and I could be to go for advertising and I go to advertise. For me, it's like a freer. It's like it's better for my creativity.
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I can make up things ethically, I can make up things.
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Good. Okay, good. So that's interesting because I think maybe that was, I mean, I was never going to be a lawyer. I was never a good enough student at all. But I feel like it is like marketing is about convincing, influencing maybe. But then also maybe it is about debating. It is about convincing people to do the right thing. I've got a thing about marketing from my marketing podcast. I spoke to, I interviewed like 100 people on my marketing podcast. Yeah.
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everybody has come from some kind of performance everybody whether they've been DJs they've been in bands they've done comedy like us like but everybody who is in marketing seems to have some sort of performance background which is interesting because I think marketing is quite performative I think you have to be able to keep everyone entertained while we're waiting for the good stuff to happen does that does that make sense
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Totally. I think it's a great point. And it's this like artistic layer that the business needs to have. Yes. The business needs to have this kind of artistic and sensitive and subjective layer.
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which is marketing. I know it seems like hippie or like something that is not, but it is, it's totally subjective. Why the logo is red? Okay, we have the color theory that tells us about the red effect, but it's red and it's rounded and it shines sometimes. And you know, this is so subtle, this is so,
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Artistic in a way. No, it's not art, but it's artistic in a sense. Do you know what I mean? Like we have this artistic mist that goes through business and they go like, they just spend money. No, we enchant and we deliver something that no one
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is like we have a lot of things in digital media, like attribution, tracking behavior, research. But till now, and I have almost 30 years working in advertising and communication and marketing. And I haven't seen a solution that I believe that tracks end to end
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what was the factor that made the customer choose for a brand. Like, I know it was this ad. It's impossible because it's human, you know, and it's a lot of things. And marketing, I think, is this bunch of subjective and objective things working together.
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We are like in the border, in the border. When I see, when I picture, where are we? We are on the border. Like here is completely art or subjective craziness. And here is rational. One plus one, two. And we dare to stay in between these two words.
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Good. And I 100% get that. It is like, especially when you get into digital, it is certain percent data, a certain percent completely 100% objective, and then a certain percent creative. And we have to live there. But now that you're saying this, what I'm thinking is that this is how it goes wrong.
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Because if they gave us the whole job, if we got to understand the market, if we got to develop products to meet the market, to use our creativity to do these things, and then come up with ways of messaging and approaching and the different channels and those things, and then how we communicate, then that would be great. But what happens is we end up using our creativity to take this junk that they've developed in a cupboard somewhere and,
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that nobody ever wanted, that nobody ever liked a little bit the way the AI is going right now. So you have to take that and we have to use our creativity to close that gap between what people actually want and the junk that they've produced and expect everyone to want to have to buy. So I think this creativity is maybe where we go wrong a little bit. What do you think to that idea? Man, we are getting philosophical today. This is a great question.
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because this advertising that sells junk doesn't work anymore. It's impossible to have junk to sell. Yeah. This is my opinion and my experience, mainly because of the internet, mainly because of the power of the people speaking about product, writing reviews and everything. So I think,
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It's been like 10 years it's impossible to sell junk to people. It's impossible. I tried. It's impossible. Because they Google, they talk to each other on WhatsApp. It's hell. It's impossible to sell junk nowadays. This is my opinion. This is my experience. Yeah, well, I think it depends on your definition of junk. But for me...
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A lot of junk is still getting sold, but the marketing has been so good. So I'm thinking now, I'm thinking about things that really aren't good for you, like Coca-Cola or McDonald's. Like they are still selling that junk, but the marketing is so good that people really, really want that junk. Do you know what I mean? But maybe that's old marketing. Maybe, I don't know. No, but this is a view.
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I'm going to be provocative, can I? Good. Yeah, of course. Yeah, because I'm also quite combative, so if you want to have a row, we could do that, no problem. Let's go. Let's go. So, I think, like, you know, you can use the sounds as well. I know you have the sounds for the podcast. I don't know where the sounds... Okay, if you make a good point, then I'll find the sounds. While you're making your argument now, I will look for the sounds. Okay, so my provocative opinion is...
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Coke is not good for who? Coca-Cola. I love Coke. It's not good for my health. I know. It's not good as a product. It's not good. But what happened? Coke is decreasing its level of sugar, even in the original Coke.
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Have you, do you drink Coca-Cola? No, I don't drink Coca-Cola. No? No. I drink water and I drink, you'll like this, I drink yerba mate. Tea, mate, super nice, super cool, super healthy. But sometimes I like to drink Coke in a glass, a lot of ice.
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Just like in the ad, you know, I was brought up with that. It's not good for my health. I know I don't drink it every day. I drink sometimes and my drink, I like it. I enjoy it. And one day I drank and I felt that there was less sugar than I was used to. And I got mad. I said, who?
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Who is transforming my Coke moment? It's one Coke a month. I am an old lady, you know? I can't have Coke at any time. It's like once in a year I have a glass of Coke. And I like the sugar, I like the taste, I like the original. It's not original anymore, you know? So the point is sometimes, and I'm breaking the boundaries here,
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because I think the moment is like this. Sometimes we just want what we want. And I know we have ethic, we need to be responsible. Coke every day is not good. We all know that. But people want things. It's not the marketing is good. People want things and things that sometimes are not good for them.
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As advertisers, we are responsible. I wouldn't love to work for Coke, even though the budget is super huge, you know? Because I know that I'm selling something that's not good for people. Something that is going on here in Brazil now is about bets. Bets. We didn't have any bet here in Brazil, any bet company, you know?
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What I mean? Yeah. Now, in this World Cup, it's all about bad companies. Bad are everywhere. You know? I wouldn't... Nowadays, I don't work for bad companies. I don't work. I don't believe it. I know it's a very bad thing. I don't do it. This is a choice. But I know... Do you know what I mean? It makes sense. Oh, it's so...
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out of everything? What do you think? Well, what I think is you say that we just want things, and I think that we do just want things, but I also wonder how much actual free choice is involved in the things that we want,
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when the advertising is so effective. And, I mean, this goes to some dark places. Because now I'm thinking tobacco, I'm thinking gambling, I'm thinking sugar, I'm thinking all of these things...
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Yeah, so we need to bring some orders to this because this is getting too interesting and we're going to lose all track of any kind of order whatsoever if we don't sort this out. So let's sort it out now. Like you know, there are six questions.
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Six questions. Okay, so the first question is, how are you qualified to talk to us about your specialist subject? Now, I don't think your specialist subject is customer experience, but I think it is something that's really important and interesting to do with customer experience. Then it's, how do you deliver value around your particular specialist subject? Okay.
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what do you recommend for people who want to get better at your specialist subject? What media do you recommend for people who want to get better at your specialist subject? Who can you introduce us to who will prolong the life of our little podcast? And then the last one is who for you is delivering the greatest value? Which business is delivering the greatest value in the world? So we need to nail down what your specialist subject is. So is your specialist subject...
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advertising? Is it digital media? Is it digital marketing? What what is do you think your specialist subject? My specialist subject is digital media ads and social media insights. So it's all about paid media, earned media, on media, shared media, all the strategy that involves
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target, people, profile, budget, goals, and a timeline. That's my four things that I work. I work channel, people, goals, metrics, and timelines and results.
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Good. All right then. So let me formally ask the question then. How are you qualified then to talk to us about digital media, advertising, setting goals, all of these things? How are you qualified to talk to us about that? I think the main point is to still be working on digital media after almost
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26 years. So I do the same thing differently every day for the past 26 years. I work within the internet. All my network and all my work opportunities and company that I worked from 26 years, they were something that came from my existence online.
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Right? So when I was little in the beginning of 2000, I had the computer and I started networking as we did just these days. And I got my first job. And I went to work in a place that was like a hub of innovation for a construction company that had an influencer program
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based on education that taught all the professionals to use the product and to recommend the product to the clients. So when you have like a refurbishment at your home, you hire constructive workers. They are so wise. They have all the knowledge about the industry. They know what pipes you need to buy,
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They know what cement you need to buy. They recommend everything. You don't ask them why. You just go there and buy. And this company that I worked for, they made an educational program in the beginning of 2000 through the Internet to teach them to recommend their products. So it was a very specific and very strategic program
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online, on the internet 26 years ago. This was an experience for me that gave me so much material till today to strategize, till today to see the whole chain of influence. Sometimes as you see all the time on advertising, they sell cars targeting kids,
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And kids ask their parents, this car is great. I know I am very polemic here. Advertising for kids is not legal here in Brazil as well. But even if you are, this campaign is running for adults, all the,
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icons and the language are made for women sometimes. And the woman's going to ask the man, or the man is going to ask the woman to wear that perfume. You know? So the influence and everything that worked, that experience 26 years ago taught me how to strategize, looking in every point.
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every point of the chain, you know? This is something that I think is a good experience and gave me a lot of material to talk about and to work with I work today. And afterwards, I worked with huge companies, government, making their campaigns online. I worked for National Lottery here in Brazil in the transition from
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physical to digital lottery. So it was very interesting to understand the challenges lottery had here in Brazil because their competitors were at poker. Do you know that? Yes, yes. And the main thing was poker was giving players,
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the immediate result. And they felt they had some management above the result. So I can influence the result. So I will play poker online instead of gambling lottery, national lottery. So I was there when you were trying to strategize what were the hooks we are going to use
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for people to work, to understand what the lottery was because younger generations don't have the time to wait like three days, four days for results. They want results now.
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Yes. You know? So this was a challenge. Okay, good. So they don't have the time to wait. So what's interesting to me about this conversation is that I also did digital marketing, and I was a lecturer with the Digital Marketing Institute, but I came to digital marketing from sales.
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So everything I did was very direct. So email was great for me. Messaging was great for me. PPC was great for me. And when I taught the Digital Marketing Institute foundational digital marketing thing...
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There were 10 modules and one of them was advertising. And I was like, I don't need to bother with this because I'm getting everything I need from the really direct stuff, the messaging stuff, all of these things. So it seems to me that we've come at these things from completely different aspects. Yeah.
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Like your aspect would be from advertising. Probably if you had 10 modules, you'd have had nine on advertising and one on the direct stuff. So that's interesting to me. But it feels to me like, are you ready for a challenge?
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It feels to me like advertising is evil. It feels to me like advertising is too, like because we're talking about things that, firstly, things that people in the region where I work in the GCC don't like at all. Alcohol, gambling, like these kinds of things, because they're not good for you.
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But you can, through advertising, compel people to do those things. And I think that's incredibly powerful. And I think that's incredibly dangerous. What do you think to that? What you do for work is evil, is what I'm saying to you, Bhatira. I had this thought and this feeling. And it's present. I understand what you are saying.
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that advertising is a tool. And you can advertise great things. For instance, I am an artist. I am a part of a group of artists. And I use my knowledge in advertising to advertise their work, our work together. So advertising is a tool. It's like money.
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It's like AI, it's like everything. Advertise itself, it makes no harm, my point of view. Of course, advertise is used to sell all kinds of things. As so many things we have that are great tools, but they are misused, right?
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Yeah. So I'm thinking nowadays, Martin, like this, like in a neutral mode. I have my beliefs, as I said. I think I'm telling a lot of things here, very provocative, talking about gambling, talking about so many bad things. But what I'm saying is that with advertising, you can sell everything.
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everything we can make a campaign for cx education and it's great you know so advertising is not evil
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Okay, good. All right. So advertising the tool is not, and I'm not suggesting that you're evil in any way, but it just seems to me that this is so powerful. So maybe what I'm interested to know is maybe how powerful this is, because from where I come from, I think what we need is customer centric marketing. Well, firstly, what we need is marketing.
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marketing that understands markets, understands people. Then we need customer-centric product development. Then we need customer-centric marketing, customer-centric sales, customer-centric support, customer-centric businesses. But it's like all of these tools, isn't it? Is whatever you use somehow seems to get corrupted because that's the way maybe of the world. I don't believe that. I think that's the way of business is where we've got to in 2026.
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So let's just wind this back a little bit and just make note of the fact that when you say you started in 2000, 26 years ago, that is the year 2000. That is when we were waiting five minutes for a picture to load from the top of the screen to the bottom of the screen. That was kind of where the Internet was. I remember I opened my first email account in 1999.
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So this is when did Google come along? 2002. When did YouTube come along? 2006. So you were like ahead of the curve in these things. So you would have been a MySpace sort of a person? Is that where you got involved in the tech? Yeah? Yes. I had a business case with National Bank in MySpace here in Brazil.
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Yeah. Okay. In an event, a tech event, we made a community inside MySpace and it was a huge success here, like 2007. It was nice. Okay, cool. Because now it's really easy. We now know what advertising looks like now on the internet. It looks like pre-roll ads. It looks like display ads. It looks like banners. It looks like all of these things, but then it looks quite different. Hey.
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Yes, to be, again, a bong. I don't believe there is any advertising going on online. That is, there are ads, ads, ad placements, ad images, advertisers. But from my point of view, nowadays, there is no advertising. There is no advertising.
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Okay. These days I've heard a jingle someone posted on Instagram, jingle, very successful jingle here in Brazil from the 70s, if I'm not wrong. I still know how to sing it. It's more than 40 years. I know from the beginning to the end.
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The whole song from a coffee factor. This is advertising. And I think above advertising, there is propaganda. Propaganda. Propaganda is like to give you an idea that you didn't know you have.
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You know, it's like the establishment. This is propaganda. Advertising is these little bits you receive that make sense or make you laugh or make, it's for me, I like it. Like coffee. Coffee has a huge consumer base, huge, right? Lots of segments, lots of types of views and everything. But it's something very massive.
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which is very rare nowadays, very difficult to work to something very massive because there is no mass anymore. It's a lot of segments, little segments, little niches and everything. So that's something that advertising, from my point of view, was not able to achieve in the digital world. What was the last campaign you saw
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that you saw that this is advertising. Not in an evil way, not the ad. Not in an evil way. But the one that you said, no, this is great advertising, I like it.
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I would struggle. I would struggle because I live in like an ad-free world. Like I've got ad blockers and stuff because I don't want to see it. So I think you're right. I think the genius, like we're definitely out of the golden age. There were like breakfast cereals in the UK, like...
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I don't know what the brand was, but I remember the songs, like they're tasty, tasty, very, very tasty, they're very tasty, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a sugary drink in the 80s called Mbongo. Mbongo, Mbongo, they drink it in the jungle. It's like, so all of this stuff is like embedded. And I think you're right. They don't take the trouble to do that kind of advertising anymore.
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That's what's going on. So the genius of advertising, like that hook, seems to have gone. And now it is just about bombardment. It is just about constant, it's everywhere, in your face, etc., etc. Yeah, so maybe it's not. But advertising is...
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incredibly powerful so like we like the the biggest things the worst things smoking gambling drinking they get the most advertising I get what you're saying about propaganda it seems to me
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like so this is my controversial thing for today, is it seems to me that it's gone into the media. So now it seems like every television program, every movie, every whatever is not just product placement, but they're seeding the ideas that they want us to believe. Does that make sense? Totally, but
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As I said, this is nothing new. This is nothing new. Look at the church. The church, and I studied in a Catholic school. Brazil was for a long time, the majority was Catholic.
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Not anymore. Now we are Catholic and also a big part of Brazilian arm, how can I say, gospel, how can I say? Evangelists. Evangelists, yeah. Yes. So the church, if you see, it's like a propaganda case. There is a branch in every town, you know, in the center plaza,
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and you have a book and you have someone that I love, which is Jesus, but he's a great advertising guy for the church, the Catholic church. They have all the elements of the propaganda. The four Ps, the nine Ps, the 10 Ps, all the Ps and the Cs that we want, they deliver. So propaganda,
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is something very powerful, more powerful than advertising, and we should master it because it's been here for a long time. And what is propaganda based on, from my point of view, based on content and experience? Content and experience.
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And this is for me something that I want to master. That's why I came across customer experience, because in a way, it's like a path to reach propaganda.
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Does it make sense? It does make sense, yeah. I'm just looking up a definition of propaganda. So what, not Google, because I've got Google out of my life is what I've done recently. But it's a noun. Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a particular cause, doctrine or point of view.
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So that is, and then if we go advertising definition, it's probably going to come up with something similar. So yeah, so I think propaganda and advertising. Okay, so advertising the activity or profession of producing advertisements for commercial products or services, like an advertising agency.
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advertising is the practice and techniques employed to bring attention to a product or service. Advertising aims to present a product or service in terms... Oh, no, I'm into Wikipedia. I could be here all day. Okay, so I'm with you. I think it's the same. And I think maybe advertising has gone beyond the jingoistic to the propagandistic. Like, I think people are propagandized to want to...
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visit McDonald's, drink Coca-Cola. Like, I think that's in that deep level. And then I think it goes to an even deeper level, if I can get weird. I think it appeals to, like, the basic, the most basic instincts in us.
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So, for example, if I hear a pop song, I don't hear a pop song about I met a girl, it was nice, we got together, we had children, it was great anymore. Now all the pop songs about how terrible relationships are or how amazing they are, they miss that middle ground because the emotion comes from he's awful, he's cheating, he's terrible and we fight all the time. Do you know what I mean? Or we're wildly in love. And it feels to me like...
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it's appealing to that most exciting tone in us. I'm not really making sense. So now we go into relationships expecting it to be wildly turbulent and dramatic and exciting and all of these things because that is exciting. Just meeting someone and falling in love and settling down and having kids isn't exciting enough anymore. And so now we're in this...
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whirlwind where I don't know where it started but I think if you're a young person growing up and you're listening to all this music listening reading not reading books probably necessarily but watching all these movies then it is about how wildly exciting relationships have to be and not what they really need to be which is just really workable do you know what I mean yes I'm afraid there was like something on the internet I missed you a little bit but it was just a little bit
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I hear you, I understand you. I think, I feel that this is more related to this very fast, and we need to consume everything. So everything needs to be tasteful, exciting, and give us the extreme of the feelings of sadness or happiness, or I love or I hate.
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Yes, it can't just be all right. It has to be wildly exciting or else it's not. Yes, or on the extremes. And if you see the extremes, I'm thinking a lot about it because I think, well,
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Yes. Are you hearing me? OK, don't worry. The internet is OK here. Yeah, my internet is OK here as well. I just think we are a long way apart. So the internet doesn't work great over long distances necessarily all the time. So you were saying one. You were thinking about these things, but it was number one. The number one thing you were thinking about was? The number one is the middle path. The middle path.
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This is something very innovative for the humankind, from my perspective. Like, as we were saying, we have the extremes. I love, I hate, tasteful, not tasteful, I eat, I don't eat, fat, slim, all the extremes, right, left, all the extremes. Yes. Yeah? And what is the exercise of the modern days?
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to find the balance, to rescue, and I'm going to be very naive, to rescue the balance, to rescue the compromise, to rescue the time. We haven't got time for anything. We need to be heated all the time, all the time, to feel alive because we are hurry, hurry.
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hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry. So it's like running and drinking and kissing and punching and like, it's a hurry. Yes. Right? This is the image that I get. So the exercise from my point of view is to try to find the middle ground. This is my biggest challenge nowadays.
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The thing is, it might just be a bit like this. It's 8.30 in the morning here, so maybe everyone's waking up and getting on the Internet is what's going on. So, yeah, if you can just rejoin. Yeah, it's not your fault. It's the Internet's fault. And it's the Internet's fault for convincing us that it was perfectly fine. It's taken me all this time to realize that, actually, the further away you are, the less reliable the Internet is. Okay, but you were saying don't blame. You were saying don't blame.
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What was saying, just to recap, is that I think we need to find the middle ground. We need to find the balance. This is the biggest challenges of our world nowadays because of that. Because the thing you were saying, we are bound by extremes. Always extremes, emotion, extremes, situations, extremes, speeches.
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It's always extreme, extreme, extreme. And now we need to unite. We need to find something that is balanced in the middle of the storm. You know? Yeah.
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Okay, so, man, this got heavy, didn't it? But I think you are exactly right. Certainly heavy. Because the extremes are so exciting, and it has to be tremendously exciting, because there is so much stuff. If it's not tremendously exciting, then it just gets lost. It's of no consequence whatsoever. But then this goes to what I think is...
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The issue, which is why I'm excited about customer centricity and customer experience, is that it is a versus. It's us versus the businesses situation. It's us versus the governments. It's us versus each other. So it's customer versus business. And I think it would be better if it weren't like that.
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But we've got to a point in 2026 where we're all consuming so much media that if it's not fantastically exciting, it doesn't get our attention. So this is where we are. And this is the question that I probably really want to know the answer to, which is if advertising is so...
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effective if it is so consequential like how do you do customer centric advertising it's like if you don't like from where I come from I work out what it is people I want and I develop that thing for them and then I let them know it's available and then they have a chat with me and then they buy it and then they're happy customers but if you have the power
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when you're advertising to decide what people think rather than them deciding for themselves, like, how does that be customer centric? Do you know what I mean? If they don't have the free will, then because I don't think they do because I don't think people drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes or gamble
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I don't think people do that out of free will. I think they do that because, oh, I know the answer, what I think the answer is. You tell me what you think the answer is, and I will tell you what I think the answer is. First of all, I totally agree with you. I think people do these things because of their advertising as well, mostly.
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Mostly because they get to know them because of the advertising. So totally, the advertising is responsible. My point is for us, advertising professionals, we are responsible. So we get to choose what to advertise. Yes, I have to pay bills. Yes, I have to do a lot of things in the capitalist world, right? Because it comes to that.
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But I am responsible as well. When I advertise Coke, I'm responsible. When I advertise drink, I'm responsible. This is something that I always told my students, mainly professionals, we are responsible. This kind of thing doesn't resonate till 2020.
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Do you know? Yeah. Because till 2020, professionals had two lives. They work outside, they go to the office, they advertise all the kind of stuff, and they got home and they were another person at home. But from 2020,
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they became one person, the only one person that were advertising bad things and also giving food for the baby. You know, at the same time, they were advertising drinks and parties all night long and also giving food for the baby here. And they realized there's something wrong.
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Something is not right here. You know, I felt that from 2020, we started having one life only. And then we started to understand that we are responsible. So nowadays, as an independent entrepreneur, I had the benefit of choosing the things that I'm going to work for.
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and what I'm going to be responsible for. So I think I answered your question. I think advertising is responsible, and people who work with advertising are responsible too. This is a fact. This is a fact. No, I have to pay my bills. You are responsible too.
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Yeah, but I think this is all part of the amazing tapestry that they've woven. So here's what I think. Are you ready for a strong idea? Here's what I think. This is a strong podcast. This is a strong podcast.
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I think the machine has learned, whatever the machine is, and I don't think it's the will of a person or not, but what the machine has learned is that unhappy people are better consumers.
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So I know if I'm doing well in my life or not. So if I'm doing well in my life, then I don't need or want anything. I just carry on. I know when things start going bad for me because parcels start turning up at my house, stuff I don't need to buy. Because if I'm unhappy, then I'm buying junk. You know, that's what goes on.
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So I think this is where this maybe makes the conversation make sense, where propaganda, where the media is all designed to make us unhappy. I can't sell you perfume until I convince you that you smell bad. I can't sell you cosmetics until I convince you that you look bad. I can't sell you a car until I convince you that you're not doing well enough in your life. Do you know what I mean?
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So it seems to me that there's this double kind of pincer movement where they're making us feel unhappy all the time. And then they'll give us the sugar hit from the Coca-Cola or the tobacco hit from the nicotine hit from the cigarettes or whatever these things might be. So it feels to me like...
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The culture is about making us all feel bad. And then it's really easy for the advertisers to come through and go, oh, but you could just buy this car. You could just buy these cigarettes. You could just buy the sugar. You could just buy... Do you know what I mean? So that's where it feels to me like it's really pernicious. And I had a conversation recently with somebody...
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with a group, I'm not going to say it was somebody, about big data and how accurately, given the big data, they can predict when you're going to die, you know, like because they're looking at thousands of data points and all these things. And then because there was one guy who really didn't like that idea. Now, the thing is, there are people in the world who have a really strong interest in when you die, the life insurance companies.
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Now, if they are knowing exactly when you're going to die and they're going to benefit from you dying earlier, so they're going to pay out less whatever or more of whatever, and they're influencing your behaviors through their advertising, they're like, OK, we'll just give Martin a little bit more sugar and maybe we'll save two years off his payments, his retirement payments. Do you see what I'm saying? So at this point, it becomes really quite dark and pernicious.
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because they've got the data from our watches. I only put my watch on when I'm actually doing exercise, but it knows how much it weighs, and I weigh, it knows how many calories I'm burning, it knows exactly what goes on, and what's going on with our bank accounts, and what's going on with our credit cards, and what's going on with our online purchases, and all of these things. So they know so much about us, that for me it gets quite dark, and they have an interest in us not living so long. It's...
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It feels like, and there is a debate going on about free will, isn't there? It feels like we don't necessarily have free will. Am I deciding what I buy or are advertisers deciding what I buy? Right. That's the bottom of the deepness. I think we got to the very bottom of the deepness. Yes. I think all what you are saying is true. Yes.
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because you have so much data going on. Privacy is something I joke to my friends. It's gone like 2008. Like the last time you had privacy in your life. It was almost 10 years back. So what I think nowadays, and again, I understand this is the world. This is the game of business. They don't care about
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We don't care sometimes when we have bills to pay children, all the stuff, our life. We don't care. Right? In the unit person that can like, I go, but I know we have like the same story in this sense, because I got intoxicated from that.
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to see that from so close, so close, I said, no, it's not for me. But I know, as I said to you, data, advertising and so on, they are all tools. This is my first step. They are all tools. What are our opportunities? It's to innovate on that.
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to use these tools to make better decisions, to make better advertising, to do better businesses. This is the innovation. This is the innovation, right? No, the words like that, you said the truth. But we can innovate using the same tools. This is my dream.
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This is my utopia. Okay, good. And this is CX education. This is how I am doing this. You know, this is how I'm doing this. Because exactly like you say, these are tools. You can use them to benefit humanity. You can use them to damage humanity. You can use them to go both ways.
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But this is my vehicle for pushing back and saying, OK, let's do things for the benefit of people. Because it does feel to me like businesses like traditional businesses who are only interested in profitability, short-term shareholder value, are firstly short-term businesses. They're not getting the value that they could. They're not getting as much out of it. But they're anti-human. They don't like customers. They don't like employees. They don't like any of these things.
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But the thing is, nobody's creating a technology. Nobody's creating an AI that's coming and buy your stuff, you know. So you can't eradicate people from it. So I think the world will be a better place. And I think we're alike in this. I'm not happy unless I'm changing the world. So this is my expression of this is what needs to happen, is businesses need to be more customer-centric, more customer experience-focused, because all they do is exchange value with those people.
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Good. So we're in the right place. Do you want some good news? Yes, please.
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I think you are eminently qualified to talk to us about digital media and advertising and all of those things. So well done. You've answered the first question. It took us an hour and a minute and a second to get there, but you've done that. Now, the next question. That's OK. The next questions might be about how you deliver value. Like, so you say you've made a decision. You don't want to advertise bad things.
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Okay, so how are you delivering value around digital media and digital advertising and those things? I think from this point of view, as I already said here, I like to advertise good things, things that I think that is value. My value is to understand the value of the things and advertise them. You know? Yes.
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Sometimes I come across something and I say, this is great. This is something people need. So let's advertise that, you know, it can be an idea. It can be, uh, an event. It can be, uh, artist movement. It can be something like a supermarket that is made from all the people together. Spoiler alert.
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which was the business I think that is the greatest business in the world. It's a supermarket that is made by everyone. This is a great thing to advertise. So this is my value. To look for value in businesses, you know, and say this is valuable. Or on the other hand, this is old. This is old. This kind of business that you don't care for anything but money.
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It's old, Martin, you know? Yes. Yeah, and I'm with you, and I understand that. But now what you're doing is you're going completely against the tide. Like, we know that people are unhappy. People want to hurt themselves. People want to buy this junk. So I'm glad I won that argument, and we've agreed that people are marketing junk, advertising junk in 2026, and people are buying it.
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But now you're going against the entire, you know you're going against the stream. Does that make sense? Like you can buy this thing and it will genuinely be good for you. I don't want something that's good for me. I don't know how much of that you caught, but I know exactly what I was saying. I don't want something that's good for me. I don't like myself. I want to hurt myself. I want to buy a packet of cigarettes with a picture of somebody with a hole on their throat because that's confirmation that these things are gonna work. They are gonna hurt me. They are gonna cause me to suffer.
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So how, if you are marketing things that are good for people, do you, advertising things that are good for people, how could that possibly work when you're working with people who don't want good things, they want bad things? Or you're marketing advertising to people who don't want good things, they want bad things? I said a lot. That's going to be an interesting cut. Yes. Oh. When you say people...
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Yes. There is a lot of person inside of people. Lots, lots and lots and lots and lots. I think it's dangerous when we say people want too much person, too many person, too many people. You know? Because as we are here, we are here, you are a British guy in Bali. I am a Brazilian woman.
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in São Paulo, Brazil. We met through the internet. Yes. And this meeting is awesome. Like, because of the internet, we are together now. We are two different people with two different points of view, brought up differently and everything. So it's difficult for me to understand people want. Who wants? Who wants? You know?
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This is something that I ask myself because it's my professional work to ask this question. Who wants? Who is the target? You know? Because nowadays we have target for everything. Everything, Martin. I don't know if you agree with me. But one of the biggest challenges nowadays is segmentation. It's ICP. It's to find the perfect profile, you know?
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Yeah. So I'm smiling. I do agree with you on that. Yes. So I do agree with you. What I tell groups, if I'm teaching them marketing, which hasn't happened for quite a long time, is if you're targeting everyone, you aren't targeting anyone is the truth. Okay. Because the messages have to go to specific places. They have to land on specific people.
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And then I'm remembering. So there's three things I want to say here. I'm remembering there was a guy when I started my business in 2005, about two years in, I had a conversation with this guy who was an accountant, but he was kind of a funky accountant. So he was like a community accountant. He was like running groups of like doing education, stuff like that. And he said to me, you know, how's it going? How's business? And I said,
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And I said, it's great. I'm really getting people excited about doing marketing. And he said to me, why don't you just find the people who are already excited about marketing? So this is what I was trying to do because my personality is a little bit like yours. I was trying to change people's minds. Whereas the truth is what you have to do is find the people who are already on that journey. And then you can take them with you.
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So we don't need to worry about the people who only want to buy stuff that hurts them. We just need to make sure that the people who want to benefit the world, benefit themselves, benefit their businesses, benefit their careers. We only need to find those people. That is 100% the right answer. Good. And then the third thing I want to say is, why do we call them targets? Target is so...
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aggressive don't you think awful awful a personal so this is the definition we've done some definitions today a person object or place selected as the aim of an attack example the airport terminal was the target of a bomb
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A small round shield or buckler designate or choose as a target for attack or criticism. So why are they targets? Like we need another word for that. We need a customer centric word for target because we don't target people. Like in Hany's speech, in Hany's narrative, that's inside out. We are going to sell to you. There needs to be something. What's the word?
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Okay. Okay. So... You want a new world. Yeah, we need a new word for that. We don't target people. Like, if anything, what we do is we make ourselves available to people. Do you know what I mean? It's like...
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Yeah. So we need another word for that because that's like, I'm going to sell to you. You, I've decided you're going to be my customer. Whereas if it's customer centric, it should be they get to decide if they're going to be our customer or not. So yeah, so that's why I was smiling. I'm not agreeing with you. You came up with exactly the right answer. But I think customer is a good word. Who are our customers? This is great.
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And we go from there. There is no more target anymore. We can go from let's find our customers. Yes. Let's find our clients. I like clients and I have a bad history with clients. You have a bad history. I told you, I think one day. Yes. When I left the last advertising agency,
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I was so traumatized that I didn't like clients at all. I couldn't hear this word. Okay. I don't like, I used to say I'm anti-clients. I don't like them. But then I found out that they weren't my clients because clients, you like clients. You like customers. No, I don't like clients.
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I like, well, I don't particularly enjoy customers either, to be honest with you. I think what I say to people is less is more when it comes to customers. The fewer customers you have, the happier you will be for 100%. So there's not some weird customer-client love going on here. It's like this is like a practical, like we've spoken quite glowingly about how the world could be better.
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Um, but, um, yeah, so, but the thing is we don't have to resolve this today because I think this is the beginning of our work, um, to make the world a better place through customer experience. Um, but now I'm looking at like auto, um, pseudonyms for target and it's come up with victim, prey, mark, scapegoat, sitting duck, um,
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laughing stock fall guy like these are the pseudonyms for target and the antonyms are things like method means way i don't know to target somebody the verb taunt harass pester harry heckle
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tease, needle, like this is an abomination that you and I, Bartero, need to fix, is target 100% is the wrong word. The word should be something like beneficiary or like prospective beneficiary or potential beneficiary or do you know what I mean? It can't be target. We can fix that in the longer term.
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So now also while we're thinking about how you add value, how effective is advertising? Like we know how effective it is if you are Coca-Cola or if you are McDonald's, like they have, they're really getting value out of advertising.
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But how is it, how can it, how effective can it be if you are CX Ed? Like how much value can we get from advertising? Because I'm still biased. I'm still stuck in my direct marketing conversations, people who are looking for it. Do you know what I mean? It's like how, yeah, so I'm waffling now. How effective could it be for a business like CX Ed? Yes.
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I think it's nice to have the like, the strategy thinking of the advertising in a sense that you find your desirable people profile, right? Well done. You've made the adjustment already. Yeah. So you find it and you, I think one of the things that I like in advertising, talking about that is
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to put your head inside the head of your desirable people. So you are always looking through the world through their eyes, through their minds. You are always trying... I've read today something that AI, you can simulate a mind of your profile customer.
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You can simulate and test campaigns with the AI, you know what I mean? And the AI will simulate the behavior of your customer profile. Yes. And then you try out the campaigns before you actually launch them.
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What CX can benefit from advertising? What can you take from it? The strategic thinking, the exercise to put your mind inside the mind of the customer, to understand and to be curious, because I think when you advertise, you need to be very curious.
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about what they want. It's not like I want to sell that. This is for a few, for the majority. You need to know what people want, what your people want. Yes. So this is a advertising exercise. What they want. How they understand what I am selling.
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because I had lots of cases that we were saying something and my desirable segments didn't understand what we were selling from that words. So I need to choose the right words, or otherwise I will not communicate.
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So advertising is an exercise of understanding the way people think, your people think, your people understand your message. One of the biggest mistakes that I see is that when the company wants to sell something from their perspective,
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I have the best content for customer experience all around the world. This is my speech. I don't want that. I want to do, to make better business from CX information, CX knowledge. I want to do better. I don't want to learn CX. You know? So...
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This is something that advertising exercise and giving sites and give ideas that maybe become campaigns, maybe became posts, maybe became content, maybe become partnerships because you exercise.
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You know, does it make sense? It makes perfect sense. And I think we're doing okay. Because we say what we're here to do is, what do we say? Connect, empower, and motivate CX leaders to build better businesses. So we are on to, I think, what we hope is...
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a good value proposition for them. You know, we want you to be better. We want you to have a better career. We want you to be more successful. And the training is about how you build like the best business case for customer experience, how you build the right culture, how you do customer-centric marketing, how you build customer-centric strategies, all of these things. So I think we're in a good place, except there is always the temptation to project
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Like we think this is what you want. So even if you are trying to be the most customer-centric business, and I want this to be the most customer-centric business, it has to be the most customer-centric business. It has to be. That's me. That's my projection. But then the temptation is that I'm projecting that onto what I think they need. So even if you aren't,
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employing geeks to hide away in rooms and come up with the latest unicorn, disruptive, that everyone's going to want. Even if you are trying to do this in a customer-centric way, then the temptation is and the risk is that you project these things. But then what happens is...
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We're looking for feedback. So in all of our advertising, we're getting feedback. They like this. They don't like that. We're doing these kinds of conversations with the world. You know, so this has been at the moment for coming from CX Ed or customer centric marketing kind of this is where this is coming from now. But I want to be talking to CX leaders in this in this platform because then we can get the direct feedback. This is exactly what they want.
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So, yeah, you are 100% right. And you've solidified this in my mind. The best you can do is put something in the world. But then what you need to be doing is making sure that you are responding in the right way to the feedback, looking for the feedback and responding in the right way. Because what goes on in the world is people don't speak to their customers because then their customers will remember that they're giving them money and then they'll stop giving them money and then they'll go out of business. That's what's going on. That isn't customer centricity. Okay, good.
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Good. Right. So we can go to question three. If people want to be more effective and more. Yes. Yeah. I would like to add just a little bit. Can I? Yes, of course. This is why you were saying something. This is why testimonials. Do you know testimonials? Yes. The format.
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Yes. It's the best advertising format and it's so CX-centric, right? Testimonials is the voice of the customer in the advertising. Yes. And it's the most powerful thing, most bottom funnel ever. Testimonials. Yes. Reviews. Yes. So there is a CX advertising, right?
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There is. It's testimonials. And it's proved. Yes. Long time. But it's corrupted. Because we know now that those people are actors. Like when they knock on their door with the soap powder. Remember they used to do that kind of advertising. We know those people are actors. So that's become corrupted. Can I tell you how I use testimonials in my business? This is genius. This is mad. So I started my business here. I think it's a good tool for your...
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100% yeah. So in my business, the Effective Marketing Company, what I used to do is, because I started in 2005, so I had the very first phone cameras, and I used to make my customers say good things about me. So I would stand up my camera, and I would say, like, when things were going well, and like, what's so great about the Effective Market? How did you find us? Why did you decide to use us? What have we achieved? What would you say to someone? That was like a very definite format.
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And so I had hundreds of these things. And my wife at the time used to tell me that it made me look desperate. And, yeah, we're not married anymore, partly because of that. But then she says it makes me look desperate. But then what happened one day is somebody phoned me and he said, look, Martin, we're running an exhibition tomorrow. He was a friend. He wasn't trying to sell me anything. We've got a stand. Do you want to use the stand?
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And I'm like, well, I can't be there because it's tomorrow. Obviously, my diary is for tomorrow. And he said, look, just take the stand, do something with it, whatever you want to do. So what we did is we turned up with a computer and a screen and we just ran these videos all day with a vase sitting next to it. And the question was, like literally the question was, how many times do our customers use the word effective when they're talking about the effective marketing company?
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And then we just left it. And then we came back at the end of the day and the table, not just the vase, but the table was overflowing with people's business cards. And they've written the numbers on the back of the business cards. And the guy who'd been there all day said, like, your stand was the busiest stand here.
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And now that evolved because now we haven't counted how many times people had said it. And so now we had to go all the way through and count them. And I'm like, well, why? While we're doing this, we might as well chop up the videos. So we just got the bits of the customers saying, oh, effective marketing certainly been effective for us. We can't believe how effective the effective marketing. So now we've got another minute and a half of content. So you're right. It absolutely evolves. And you're right.
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What people get from real testimonials is they get a sense of who the people are, what their challenges are, how much like them they are, and then what the actual outcomes are likely to be. So you're right, 100% testimonials. Now we haven't had an opportunity to get face to face with our customers yet, we're brand new, but certainly when we do, we're going to be producing those kinds of testimonials. And I think you're right, that is the most authentic, most customer centric advertising you can do.
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And the other benefit is the world deserves to know like people who are investing in customer centricity. So they get they deserve to have a bit of a platform to say, look, we're investing in this. Good. Good. Right. So then maybe you've answered the next question already, which would be good. And the next question is how what's your recommendation for people who want to get better, more effective with their digital media and their advertising?
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The first one I think is listen. Listen. There's a lot of tools to listen, everything. So from monitoring, social listening, and talking to your customer, you said something very valuable, which is sometimes we are afraid of asking our clients what they think about us, but this is so brave, so important, so...
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It's the essence of the business. So listen, listen. This is my mantra. Listen, listen, listen, listen everything. And then, because listening sometimes it sounds very passive. It's not passive, very active, active listening. Yes. And afterwards, which is something continuous,
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It's not something you do and stops. It's all the time. Everything that I'm going to say is all the time. Listening and then start to understand the mind of your client and get in that with love, with ethic, with your better intentions, and then communicate.
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You are the best on it, I think. That's why I'm here, because I think you are so good at it. You understand and you communicate. And you are listening. You're listening, you are understanding, you're trying to put your mind inside my mind, and then you communicate and listening and start all over again, you know? I think this is the thing.
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And the thing is, is that I look, I'm here looking up definitions, like now I'm looking up client, but 100% I'm hearing you. And a client said this to me once. He said, like, you don't look like you're paying attention or you don't look like whatever. And then you start talking and it's clear that you've heard absolutely everything. And you're just, my mind's just working. But what you're saying is so valuable because…
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To fail at customer-centric, to be something other than customer-centric, you have to believe quite a lot of nonsense. We don't know what customers want. But you're 100% right. The thing about digital technology, digital marketing...
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is that we do know what people want. They are talking about these things all day, every day on social media. They're searching for these things. They're spending time on these sites. They're leaving feedback on our competitors' websites about what they like and what they don't like. So I think 100% it is about listening. But listening is about parking your ego. Because that's what I think businesses that aren't customer-centric are is egocentric.
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is just shut up and hear it. You don't have to know everything. You don't know everything, and you certainly don't know your customer's perspective. Good, 100%, I'm with that. Cool, let's go to question number four. Are we on question number four already? I think it's question number four. Question number four is what media do you recommend for people who want to get better at digital media and advertising?
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I will say something that maybe some people will say like, she's stupid. Those people need to be careful. Those people that are going to say that need to be careful. But I think Google Alert. Google Alert is awesome. I love it. You know, you go there, you put the keywords like digital media, customer experience.
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I'm studying BESS, which is battery energy system. I'm all about like energy safety right now. And I put that there, BESS. I put that customer experience. That's how I met Martin from Google Alert. Simple as that.
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and you get like loads and loads and loads and loads of news and every kind of source and you go and you dive in, I love it, you know? Yeah. I don't know if it sounds stupid, but Google Alerts is awesome. Yeah. But you do need to be careful with Google Alerts. I remember I was plugged in really heavily to Google Alerts and I had a guy work for me called Keith Fowler. So Keith Fowler was one of my alerts, keyword alerts.
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but I'd be sitting there and an alert would come up and he would say Keith Fowler did this, Keith Fowler did that Keith Fowler did something but he definitely didn't he was sitting opposite me all day so he was a different Keith Fowler so yeah but that is really really powerful but I think like other listening tools also like they're not the only ones 100% I think your listening thing is the number one thing I'm going to write a book called The Answer is Listening I need to get on and write that book now because yeah I do
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Yes. No, super. It's a super hot topic. Yes. Listening is everything. It's a big part of the customer experience, I think. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So now we've got a title, I think, for this episode of the podcast, Listening is Everything. Yeah.
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Good. Okay, so question number five. We're on question number five. Question number five is who can you introduce us to? Do you think that will add some value to our podcast, that will have something to say that will be of use and of interest to our audience? So many people. But there is a woman that I love. And she started being my client, my customer.
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and then became my friend. She's a futurist. She's done a lot. And she's a great talk. She told me so many things. Every time I talk to her, I get inspired. Her name is Bea Carvalho. She's Brazilian, but she lives in Portugal nowadays. She's 70 something years old. And she moved, she sold her apartment, a huge apartment,
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awesome place here in sao paulo she left to leave howard her dream to live in europe wow she she traveled around the world she's she traveled by car from sao paulo to la you know by car yeah you know
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She's great. She's great. She's great. She's somebody that everybody needs to know. Bea Carvalho. I send you her LinkedIn. Okay, fantastic. And is there another person? Because if you have two, then definitely one of them will show up. That's the way it works. There's so many. Michelle Lent. Michelle Lent is...
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the guy I met online that gave me the first opportunity to work with advertised on the internet here in Brazil. Together we made the first content generated by people here in YouTube for a BenQ brand, which is a Chinese brand that bought Siemens. Do you know Siemens? Yes, yes, yes.
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Siemens, Siemens Mobile. I worked for mobile. I worked for them. And they need to rebrand. They need to make Brazilians say the brand in the right way. So we made a contest. His idea, a contest on YouTube around 2005. YouTube.
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before 2010 you said in the beginning but it was i said 2006 yeah and 2005 four five around that and we asked people to post videos saying thank you which was the name of the brand and there is that i said some videos for you to see they are all there till now like 20 years
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Cool. So Michel Lent is a guy. Michel Lent. As well. He's a digital maverick here in Brazil. Fantastic. Good. And you've done such a good job of describing them. What I'll do is I'll cut you talking about them into their intro. So I know exactly what it is that you've said about them. That would be really cool. Good. Okay, good. So we've got to the last question. How do you feel about that?
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I'm excited. I'm all the way excited. Okay, fantastic. So the last question then is February 14th, 2005. That's when YouTube was launched. So which for you is the business that is delivering the greatest value to the world?
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Because I think we're talking about customer centricity, but I think that good businesses deliver lots of value, not only for their customers, not only for their employees, not only for their leadership, their shareholders, but for their communities, for their countries, for their environments. You know, that's what I think really good businesses do. So which business for you, Bhatira, is the best business in the world ever?
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I thought about this question a lot and I have two actually. And one is the one supermarket that I told you, they are a cooperative. Is that a thing? Cooperative supermarket. Yes. Yes. So you can subscribe.
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And then you have like timeshare. I'm going to work there Saturday morning once a month. Wow. And they have everything on the supermarket and you exchange your working hours for benefits in the supermarket. And they buy together all the goods. So the price is lower for the final consumer, consumer, which also is
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a worker, you know? Yes. So I love it. They are on Instagram, they advertise, they give people feedback, saying about the price, asking people to work. Some days they don't have people enough to work. I love it. I felt safe, you know, as a client. Yes. And maybe...
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as someone that's going to subscribe to work once a month, once a month, to have a more fair supermarket. I love it. I love it too. What is it called? It's called Gomo Cop. Gomo Cop. I will send you.
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to you as well. Okay, fantastic. Como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.como.com
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And here in Brazil we have something, can I say another one? I just want to say about the cooperative is I think because people get confused because we're interested also in employee experience because we believe the best customer experiences are delivered by employees and if they're not getting a good customer, if they're not getting a good experience then they're not in a position to give that experience.
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But people get confused about why we're interested in that. It's because of that. So if you can remove the barrier entirely between customers and employees, i.e. your employees are your customers and your shareholders in a...
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cooperative business then that makes perfect sense to me then you've removed entirely that versus situation whereas businesses versus customers it's like no we're all the same thing because we're all the same thing anyway really is the truth okay good so that's a great nominee i think that's going to stand a good chance um my nomination was a parmesan company in northern italy which is also a cooperative and but did you know that fc barcelona also is a
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Is it? Is it? Yeah. It's owned by its members. The football team, yeah. The football team? Yeah. Wow. I didn't know.
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Yeah, so there are different ways of doing business, I think is the thing. Yeah, so that's what I hope to discover. And what this is going to be, and you're going to have a choice. Like, I want to involve you in my content in two ways. Either you can be involved with me in judging the best business in the world, or we could do a CX context thing where we start at the very bottom of CX, and then we just produce videos which are about what CX is exactly, and all the terminology, and all the practices, and all those things. So you're going to have a choice of which one of those that you want to do.
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Okay, your other business, what was your other business? Other business is a social movement, but it opened for investment rounds three times now. Investment rounds with a investment firm. How can I say, getting money from huge investors to invest
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in a social movement called MST. MST in Brazil is huge, also cooperative and well-structured. They are based on the fields. They work with planting, agriculture, sustainable agriculture. They also have some stores in the cities selling their products.
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They have shirts, they have like hats, caps, they have like a fashion, their fashion style. The brand is very strong nowadays. So MSCT is also awesome business. Fantastic, good.
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Good. So I will look forward to researching those. What I'm hoping to do is come up with like a scientific way of judging businesses so that we can say not just subjectively, but objectively, like these are the businesses that deliver the best value in the world. I don't know if you've seen, but Hany and I are working on a hierarchy of customer expectation. So I think that's going to be like our scientific judge. We need to revisit that again to make it like scientific and definite.
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Okay, good. Fantastic. I will look forward to looking into those two businesses. Do you want some really good news? Yes, please. We got to the end. It's over.
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So it's not necessarily good news. I like you. Yeah, I like it too. I think this will be the first of many conversations that we're going to have. I hope so, because I think it'll be really interesting to involve you. I think probably the thing that could happen immediately is the CX context thing. I think the judging the best business in the world might be a later thing, but who knows? Maybe you'll still be around and you'll want to do that as well.
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But this has been a really interesting, useful conversation for me. You've cured me of thinking that advertising is purely evil. You're right. It is just a tool. I would argue that in 95% of cases, it is used to the detriment of people, customers, markets, and that is a challenge. But we don't care. We're going to fix the world. We're going to make businesses customer-centric, and then it will be used for good. So that will be good. Is there anything that you said that you think that you shouldn't have said?
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A lot of things, but I think it's necessary. You know, it's necessary. Yes. It's necessary to say that I think people have the power to choose, even though they are loaded with advertising. Yes. And we are here to promote good things for us, for people like us, for people like minded and for those who wants to change their minds.
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or to think in other ways, to open their possibilities. I believe that. I believe the world is diverse, very diverse. It doesn't fit in our minds, the diversity. And this is the opportunity.
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100%. And I think the world is changing. I think people are still buying junk because of advertising. But I think the opportunity is for us to accelerate that change. People are thinking more carefully about what actually benefits them. People are much healthier in some instances than they've ever been. People are more environmentally conscious. They are more conscious of other people. They're more conscious of the way maybe that the businesses that they engage with invest in.
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So I think now 2026 is a good time for us to be on this mission. That's what I think. So I was going to ask if there is anything that you haven't said that you did want to say, but I suspect you just said that as well. Yes. So for me, it's that I would love to give, receive the feedback. So leave comments, share your opinions. Right. Yes. Yes. That's it. I, I,
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Thank you for the opportunity, Martin, for having me here. I love it. Okay, you are very welcome. Thank you so much. So now you're saying the things that I'm supposed to say. So if people have made it to now, they should like, share, comment, subscribe, get involved because we're really interested in that kind of feedback. And who knows, you might leave a comment and you might end up sitting here talking to us at some point in the future. So that would be exciting as well.
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good bless you thank you so much one of my lights has just gone on that's the universe telling us that we've got to the end so don't rush away we'll say goodbye now for the benefit of the people who are still watching and then afterwards we'll say goodbye like normal human beings bless you Bartero this has been a fantastic conversation thank you so much and I'm hoping that this is the beginning of our little journey our little mission to bring customer centricity to the world
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And I look forward to catching up with you again sometime soon. Thanks, Martin. You are very welcome.