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[guitar music] O- one of the things when you do this, you, you sort of realize that most of the artists you work with have some kind of artistic dysmorphia.
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They don't know what makes them great because they can't see them. They don't hear it. What they hear
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when they hear their voice or their song or their instrument coming out of the speakers is they hear all the failures, all the things that they wish they were better at, and they don't hear the emotion and the feeling,
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the real content of what they do. They don't... A lot of them don't hear it. One of the things that's really good is when you get someone who's good a- and
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they do know what makes them great, and, and that's just a rare thing. It's a rare thing.
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[guitar music] Welcome to Curious Goldfish, a podcast community where music and curiosity come together through interesting conversations with the music makers of our world. I'm your host, Jason English.
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You can find Curious Goldfish in all the major podcast and social media platforms. And of course, we have all of our content on our website, curiousgoldfish.com.
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[guitar music] Artistic dysmorphia. That's Craig Alvin's term for it.
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It reframed almost every conversation I've had with an artist on Curious Goldfish. Craig is a Grammy-winning engineer who's worked with Kacey Musgraves, Little Big Town, and Hanson.
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He runs Noble Steed Studios out of a converted doctor's office in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
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The studio comes complete with a 1962 console that sounds better than anything built since and a $50 compressor he bought in 1992 that's now worth about $8,000. But Muscle Shoals does something to people.
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Craig thinks it's two things: a culture where musical talent is so common nobody bothers to mention it, and a deep, settled quiet. No planes, no highway noise, nothing pulling your attention away from the work.
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That combination strips away noise, literally and psychologically, and what's left is either gonna be honest or it's gonna be afraid.
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And a lot of what Craig does after 33 years behind the board is helping artists stop choosing afraid. So from Muscle Shoals, here's Craig Alvin. Let's dive in. So hey, Craig. Hey.
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So, uh, it's r- I really appreciate your time. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you, too. Uh, is, are you calling in from, from Muscle Shoals, Alabama? Is that right? Yeah. I'm in the Shoals right now. In the Shoals.
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Who you working with this week or last week? What's on your mind right now in terms of, uh, working with artists and, and- I work with a lot of different people.
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Um, so, uh, just last week, we had, uh, a lady in who was, uh, working on a record. Um, she brought a bunch of great session musicians out, and, um, we had David Ryan Harris producing, so that was a lot of fun. Um,
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I do a lot of mix work, so most of my work these days still comes in just online, and I mix it and, you know, send it back. Um, but you know, we do have a full studio here.
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Uh, got a beautiful API console over here and a old tube Universal Audio 610 console that we record through.
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You know, like most places, we have various options, but it's all, you know, primarily Pro Tools and, you know, the rest, uh, everything on the front end is beautiful vintage analog equipment. Yeah. No, that's great.
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So is it, was it Jennifer Simpson that was out there? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, I know Jennifer... I actually, David Ryan Harris was on, uh, I interviewed him about six weeks ago.
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I haven't published the episode yet, but- Nice... I talked to him down at 30A Songwriters Festival, and he's played in our, uh, backyard concert series that we do as part of the podcast here in Atlanta.
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So he's, uh, he's incredible. Yeah. Very, very talented man. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, to say the least, but, uh, yeah. No, I saw- [laughs]... the, the clips of Jennifer, uh, doing some recording.
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I, I didn't know it was at Noble Steed, so that, that's awesome. Yeah. Can't wait to hear that. Yep.
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Um, well, I guess for, for people that may be listening or watching that may not know who Craig Alvin is, uh, again, I'm not gonna rehash your, your life story or your, or your career, but obviously you, you've worked with a number of people through the years in music, uh, most notably Hanson and Little Big Town and Kacey Musgraves and, uh, probably a bunch of others.
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So, um, congrats on your career, um, o- on, you know, just all the things.
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So I, I just wanted to ask you about artificial intelligence 'cause you just mentioned, you know, some of your vintage equipment that, uh, is so important to the recording process and, uh, you've talked about the character of gear and, and how important that is.
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You know, I'll just start out with, like, kind of a general question. Like, what's your general point of view about the use of AI in, in music today? Well, I, I remember
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way back when drum machines first came out and everybody said, "Oh, it's over for session players, especially drummers."
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And then when Auto-Tune came out, everyone said, "Oh, you don't even have to be a good singer anymore." And, you know, uh,
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we've watched all these different technologies come and go, and AI is different, but it's funny how some of it, some of it is useful. Um, and the useful stuff will get used. Like I, I had a-
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A mix I was working on where the drummer was singing background vocals, and the drums were bleeding into his vocal mic so much that I couldn't use it, but I was able to use an AI app to remove those two and, uh, and have a clean vocal.
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That's a great use, um, and there's plenty of other uses like that. Um, but as far as, like,
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what we're starting to see in the session world, um, when people are coming in with s- uh, songs that they have used AI to help write and the demos that they have made with AI, what we're finding is that when we get to the real world, uh, and try to get real musicians to do a performance, it's not very helpful.
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In fact, it kind of... It creates more problems than it solves, and I think people are quickly realizing that, you know... I mean, I'm tired.
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I wish the robots would take over, but I just don't think that that day is, is here yet. [laughs] So. That's a great way to put it, yeah. Um, so do you think...
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Are musicians a little bit hesitant to even admit that they're using AI to either kind of round out a song or a lyric and then also on the, on the demo side, or do you think people are more comfortable, at least on the demos, acknowledging that, yeah, like I, I didn't have to pay a bunch of people to, like, record this for me?
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I mean, yeah, I think people are, uh, a little reluctant to, you know, to say that they've been using AI.
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But honestly, most of the time when people come in and they have used AI as part of the process, it's really obvious. You know? Like, you can really tell. Yeah. And, um, I don't know.
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I, I've always been someone who really... I, I believe that when you're making a recording, authenticity is the most important thing, and, you know, moving forward, you know, with that authenticity and having
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not just a lack of fear, but sometimes just having the courage to be real and, and tell a true story or, or reveal a true emotion, that's like, AI can't do that. You know? It really can't.
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And, um, so I, I don't know. I'm not too worried about it.
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Uh, I think that there's gonna be good uses and bad uses, and some people are gonna be able to find interesting ways to make interesting music with AI moving forward, and that's- Mm... that's gonna be fine too. Yeah.
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All right, well, thanks, thanks for sharing that. So again, I'm not gonna pretend that I know all the equipment that you use and some of the ones that you mentioned earlier, uh, a few minutes ago.
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But I was, uh, I, I actually have been able to sit in on a recording, um, session in Muscle Shoals at a different studio a couple years ago, and, uh,
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it was great to see the old gear and, and, and, you know, to hear about the stories of where the different pieces of equipment came from, and it sounds like- Yeah...
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it, it, at Noble Steed, which, uh, you and, uh, your partner Jason started a few years ago. Uh, can you just kinda talk a little bit about
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the, the different sound that comes out of the older equipment and, and I think you've again, uh, mentioned in other interviews the character and the personality that it has. Uh, can you give me an example of that? Yeah.
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Um, well, I, I'll tell you what, what's really funny, especially, uh, when I'm using the old tube console, you know, that, that thing was built, I think, in 1960, and you would think that it wouldn't sound as good as new stuff.
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Uh, but what's always shocking to people when they get here is how much better it sounds than anything they're used to using. It's just...
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It's really wide open and clean and clear and hi-fi, and I think it's so much that way that I think it kinda disappoints people who are expecting it to sound old and kinda crusty, you know? Because it's just not.
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It's just wide open and clear. It's, it's really, really beautiful.
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It's like we all know the difference between a, a film that was shot on film versus a film that was shot digital and then was, you know, uh, processed and treated to look more like film.
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You know, these days, so many of the, of the software tools we have are just trying to take this, you know, the newer stuff, the newer equipment, and make it sound kinda like the old equipment, but the way they do that is usually by adding a significant am- a significant amount of distortion.
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And when you're dealing with something like an old Universal Audio console, um, if, if it's distorting, you're not using it right.
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It's meant to be as clean and noise-free and beautiful-sounding as, as possible, and they were able to do incredible stuff with just some vacuum tubes and transformers and capacitors.
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These are brilliant designs, and that's the reason why they are, are so expensive these days. Um, you know, not only because they're rare, but because they really do just sound better.
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Based on your experience, was it a pretty quick learn for you to use s- you know, what some would consider technical limitations of the older equipment to your advantage, or did that just come- Well-...
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with much of, much experience? I think, yeah, uh, the, the old stuff was what I... I mean, I've been doing this for 33 years, so the old stuff was what we had when I started. Was what you had, yeah. You know?
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We were still recording everything to tape- Mm...
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and, you know, we were using, um, classic designs of outboard gear, and, um, back in the Early '90s when I kinda got my start, um, a lot of this old stuff wasn't worth much because the new stuff was what everyone wanted back then.
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So I just went and bought up all the old stuff because it was what I was, what I could afford, you know? [laughs] And now the stuff's worth a fortune.
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Um, I think right behind me here you can see this, uh, this compressor here, the gray with the big meter. That's the very first piece of equipment I ever bought, and I think I got it in about 1992.
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I paid $50 for it, and now if you look 'em up on eBay, they're $7,000, $8,000, you know? [laughs] Oh my gosh. But I got it for $50, so... 'Cause no one wanted 'em.
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And in fact, I remember other engineers kinda laughing at me, going like, "Why do you wanna use that old broadcast junk?" And now they're all fighting to get it. So I don't know. I guess, uh, sometimes poverty pays.
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[laughs] That's good. [laughs] Well, it kinda goes back to the AI discussion. I, I, I do think there's, there's gonna be a, um,
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a desire and a craving for m- more authentic music and songwriting, and I think, like, the... It sounds like the gear has already sort of made that, made that transition, you know? Yeah.
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The, the interesting thing, like I did, like back around 20... I think it was 2019 that I moved out of my main studio in Nashville, um, where I, I'd been forever, and, um,
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I had to make the transition over to mixing all digitally i- in the computer. And I had always mixed on an analog console before then, and because I didn't know, like really
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how else to do it, I just basically built a template where, because we have software models of all this equipment that I have, the, you know, the real analog equipment in the room, we have software models of it all.
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So I just built a template that was exactly like what I was doing on an analog console and learned to use that, and it works great, you know?
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Um, at one point, uh, I remember trying to mix in the box and it was not so great. Um, but these days it works great. You just have to know how to mix and, and take your time, do a good job, you know?
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Uh, and it works fine. So I do, um, I do some like hybrid mixing here where when I'm mixing a project, I will use the software tools and the hardware tools.
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Um, you know, just kind of mixing and matching whatever sounds better and whatever's gonna work better for that project. Okay. So Noble Steed is in Muscle Shoals.
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Uh, I know Muscle Shoals has gotten a lot of attention in the last decade or so based on, you know, some of the legendary studios that are there. Mm-hmm. And, you know, there's b- more that are opening up.
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I, I, I have a couple questions about that. One, why did you and Jason decide to do another one? 'Cause it, you know...
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I don't know how many there are, but I know that there are at least, you know, at least a dozen- Yeah... uh, if not more. Um- There's definitely more... and then is there a, um... What's the community like with
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the other r- the, the other studios? Is it competitive or is it supportive or j- I guess it just depends on who's running 'em.
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Um, I'm gonna answer your second question first, is that I get along with all the other studio owners and, and engineers and musicians. We help each other out any way we can. Um,
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you know, uh, it's really, I would say, just a good community. Um, so I, I'm very happy about that.
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But, um, the reason why we decided to open a studio, when I, when I moved down here, I really did think that I was going to just lease one of the other rooms, and I did for a while.
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I leased a room at Cypress Moon for a, I think almost two years, which was a beautiful room. It's, uh, down, right on the river. But
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the reason we bought this place, uh, i- is because I, I just kinda need to have my own shop because I have to be able to come and go when I please.
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And sometimes I, I'll be off in New York for two weeks working on something or up in Nashville working on something and, um, I don't know.
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Plus I had all this stuff and it just made sense- You had all the stuff already [laughs]. That's good... yeah, just to put it all in one room and then, you know, instead of paying someone else, you know?
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I, I m- uh, essentially paying the same amount, if not a, a, a little less actually to just- Hmm... have a place that we own. So that made a lot more sense to me.
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I've never had a studio that was exactly set up the way I wanted it to be. Uh, it was always, uh, someone else had done the design or someone else was the owner.
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Um, and I wanted to finally prove to myself that if I could, you know, get in and do it the way I believed it really should be done, that it would be better, and I really believe that we have proved that.
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You know, that all the experience I, I, I was freelance for a very long time and I, I've always gone and worked in other studios and I've always kinda scratched my head and wondered why they were
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se- setting up and working the way they were working, 'cause it never made sense to me. Um,
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so I, I had some very specific ideas of how I wanted things to do, particularly with monitoring and acoustics and, uh, ventilation and, you know, stuff like that.
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I had, I had a, a pretty clear goal in mind, and I really believe that we've achieved all those goals. So you guys took an old house.
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Is the, is the main recording area, is it the, kinda the big living room or do you have it, do you have different rooms set, kinda set up for different purposes?
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No, we're, uh, the house is actually the guest house for the studio. So, uh, which is a few blocks away. The main studio building is an old doctor's office that we- Oh, cool... um, remodeled into a studio. Okay.
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So it's just like, is it one big room that used to be the office, basically? Well, yeah, um, we have one big room that's the control room. Uh- Mm...
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we have some instruments in here like the piano and the organ and, and stuff like that. And then we have two smaller booths, um, one where mainly for vocals, and then one mainly for drums.
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Um, and then, uh, you know, we also have, like, a kitchen area and a little bar, uh, kind of a speakeasy bar because all the Muscle Shoals studios had that back in the day, 'cause this was a dry county.
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So, uh- [laughs] Got it... we kinda mimicked that in one corner of the building. Uh, mainly just for parties, when we throw parties and have events here, you know. [laughs] That's cool. Yeah.
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Well, uh, not to get too mystic, uh, on you, but when I was in Muscle Shoals a couple years ago, and I've, I've talked to a few people that, you know, have recorded since then. They, they do talk about the sound, right?
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And that, that's come up on, you know, the documentary and everything. But I don't know, do you think it's the river? Do you think it's the energy from the, the Tennessee River? Do you think it's the history?
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Do you think it's nothing? You know, I, I, I'm just- There's-... curious what, what's driving that mysticism about, about recording in Muscle Shoals? Well, I, I will say that, um, there just is something
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kind of, uh, I don't wanna say magical, 'cause I'm not really that a magical thinker. Um, but there is something that, that feels special down here. And I, I attribute it to two things.
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One is that it's the culture, because everyone I meet down here just plays music and loves music and is good at music. And, um, you know, it,
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I, I've had friends that I've known for, you know, a couple years before I knew that they were really an outstanding songwriter, you know, or that they could play everything really well, you know.
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[laughs] Uh, it's just so common that they don't bother to mention it, you know. It's just part of the culture. But the other thing that I think that's truly unique is just how quiet this place is. Um,
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and I think that has a deep psychological effect on musicians.
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You know, when you're in a place where you're not hearing planes going overhead, and you're over an hour away from a freeway, like the kind of quiet that really, really settles into you.
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Uh, it just, I don't know, it, it, it takes a lot of stress off your mind, and I think makes a lot more room for music. And those, so those are my two theories. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that, that's really cool.
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Um, by the way, the, that studio I was at, I don't know if you, do you know Dane Hannon and those guys over at Ivy Manor? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're good friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
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They're just, uh, kind of around the corner from us here in Sheffield. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. Super cool setup, too. Um, well, good.
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Well, we've gone, I don't know, 20 minutes or so, and I failed to mention that y- you've won a Grammy, uh- [laughs]... which, you know, congrats on [laughs] that. Thanks. That, that's obviously incredible.
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Um, and that was with, uh, Kacey Musgraves', uh, the album Golden Hour. Yeah. Obviously, that, was that recorded in Muscle Shoals, or was that recorded somewhere else? No, that was, uh, that was recorded in Nashville.
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That was in Nashville, okay. Yeah. I guess not to, you know, that's been six or seven years ago, and you may love talking about it. I know you've, you've talked a lot about it through the years.
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I guess my question on, on that experience is, there's a guy in Nashville that I, that I spoke with in the fall who's a member of the Nashville Songwriter Hall of Fame, and he, he talks about when he's writing a song, it's, uh, Roger Murrah.
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So he, he did a lot of, a lot of the big country hits back in the '80s with, like, the Oak Ridge Boys and, uh, different folks.
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But, um, he talks about this, like, when y- you know, when you're writing a lyric and you, and you get it down on paper, you're looking for that magic, and, and you know the magic when it happens.
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When you were going through, uh, the work with Kacey on that Golden Hour album, did you realize that it was magic, what you all were creating, uh, in the moment?
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I- And can you, can you take, take me back to that, to that time? Yeah, I, um, I think if, if my memory is correct, I think the first song we worked on was Oh, What a World on the first day.
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And I, I mean, I just couldn't, when I heard, like, just the demo of it, I couldn't believe it. And, uh, I had a feeling that first day that, that it was gonna, you know, it was gonna win a Grammy. I, I really did.
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But I didn't say anything to anyone 'cause I didn't wanna jinx it. But I remember going home and debating with myself on the drive home, like, "Do I mention that to my wife?
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But, but if I say it out loud, I'll jinx it," you know? Um, so I, I never did. But, uh, we, you know, that was just a, yeah, it really was a special experience.
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All the, all the songs that came together on that and that team of people, we just were, it was the right people in the right room at the right moment. And every once in a while you get to be a part of that.
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You know, you can't manufacture it. But if you do this long enough, every once in a while, you'll, you know, show up somewhere and realize, oh, okay, it's one of those days. No, that's amazing. I mean- Yeah...
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congrats on having that experience, you know. And, and, uh, obviously g- congrats on the recognition. The, um, and I don't, uh, this is more outta curiosity. I don't wanna get into, like, specifics.
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But as, as, in your role as, like, the audio engineer, if a song like Space Cowboy- You know, hits whatever, 20 million streams or whatever. Does that...
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I know, I know the streaming thing's a whole separate topic about, like, how much is paid and everything, but is your f- are your fees basically kinda like one and done?
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Or do you get any, any, any upside if, if a song goes from 10 streams to, you know, 10 billion? Uh, so, uh,
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because I, I mixed, um, some of the songs on the record, I was given, um, I was giving, given points. Okay. Uh, but, you know, uh, I, I just...
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At the end of the record, I sold my points back to Kacey because I didn't really, you know. I don't know. I've, I've always felt weird about that whole thing. If I had been a songwriter, I would feel different. Right.
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Um, you know, at, at the end of it- No, that's interesting... I, I just, I remember having a conversation with my then manager, um, and, you know, going like, "What, what do we do with these points? They're just,
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it's impossible to chase down the money, and we don't know if anything's gonna be a hit or not, you know?" And so, uh,
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he and I just, you know, basically reached out to her team and said, "Hey, we wanna sell these back to you. Do you guys want them?" And they, they bought them. And you know, I got a fair price for it, so. Yeah. Yeah.
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No, that's cool. The, [clears throat] the whole monetization aspect of music is, is crazy these days. I've actually two questions.
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For artists and, and s- you know, people like Kacey, obviously she's on a, she's on a different level, but y- you work with all sorts of artists that have all sorts of levels of either experience or success.
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Where do you see them having the most success when you, when you measure that success through, you know, being able to pay the bills and earn a living, you know?
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Do, is there, have you seen through the years, like, okay, these f- folks are figuring it out, and it looks like, you know, X, Y, and Z? Do, do you have any, do you have any feedback on that?
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Uh, well, first of all, I don't know anything about the money side or the business side of the music business. Um, I know a lot about microphones and instruments- [laughs]... you know, speakers.
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I know a lot about that stuff. Um, how anyone makes money is a mystery to me. Um, you know, eh, that's one of the reasons why I have, uh, why I have Jason Spiewak over at Noble Steed, 'cause he's good at that stuff.
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Mm-hmm. I'm not, you know. Uh, I just love doing this. I'd give it away for free, um, because that's just kinda my nature. The one thing that I do see
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in the people who are really successful, they just are those people who are driven, and they just get up and do it every day like it's a job, you know. Like, they're very serious about every aspect of it, so.
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Like, in your role, has it changed for you since 1992 in terms of, like, how you, you know, how you, how you look at paying the bills and, and making a, making a career? Or has it not changed that much?
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Uh, it, it hasn't changed that much, you know. I've never really done any real marketing. So, um, a lot of people want me to start making, like, YouTube or TikTok videos or something like that, and it...
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If I wanted to go into video production, I would've gone into video production. It's not who I am. It's not, I don't care about it. Yeah. You know?
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I'm one of those people that, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of people my age who we didn't grow up with the social media thing, so it's sorta hard to, like, relate to it. I understand that it's important.
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It's just not important to me. Um, so that's why we have people that help me with that. [laughs] 'Cause- Sure... otherwise I'm never gonna do anything, 'cause I, I don't...
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I'll go, I, I go to the studio every day and make things sound good, but, you know, as far as what makes a good, you know, video, I, I don't know.
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And, and honestly, if I ever had a video that went any kind of viral, I don't know that I would even know. [laughs] So. I'm fascinated by the whole thing, just how much things are changing, you know?
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And, um, and I, again, a lot of the people I talk to are sort of independent singer-songwriters- Yeah... who are pouring their soul out in front of six people at a bar, you know? Uh- It's always been that way, though.
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It's always been that way. Yeah. 'Cause, you know, you go back to, like, when I was first getting into the music industry, there was no internet, you know. Um, and you would go pour yourself out to six people at a bar,
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and they would just be talking and drinking the whole time, and then you'd go home and be discouraged about it. And then you just didn't have the money to go and record.
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So you couldn't even make that, you know, that single or, you know, the cassette you would sell at your show, 'cause studio time was so expensive.
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And now at least people have some good, inexpensive tools, and if they apply themselves, they can make a decent demo, you know? So I, I don't know. Um- Yeah...
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you know, maybe you can't really sell demos, but at least you can put it up on Spotify and people can listen.
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And, you know, back, you know, back in, what, 1993, to go into a real studio, just to buy the tape was $300, and that'll give you 15 minutes of recording time. Um, that was, that's crazy, you know? Yeah.
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Uh, it was very, very expensive. And, uh, and then most of the time the people that were kinda doing it really weren't music professionals, you know?
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They were maybe technically good at their job, but they didn't, they didn't have any vision. They were just trying to... They, they'd probably record jingles most of the time for, like, local businesses. Um, so-
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I don't know. I, I feel like, I feel like the story is the same but different. And, uh, it's always been difficult to make your living doing music, and I, I don't think that that- that's ever gonna change.
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Just, it's just not. We're, we're in the same spot, I think. Um, it's just that, uh, the labels found new ways to steal money from the artists. They're not using the old ways anymore, so...
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[laughs] That's good, that's good perspective. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the whole thing's crazy. I, I, you know, I, again, I've talked to h- now over 100 people for this, for this podcast, and it's...
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the stories that I hear and, you know, to your po- to your point, it's, uh, yeah, they're just, it's just different ways to embezzle. Yeah. Um...
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[laughs] Were, so were, were you always on the engineering side, or did you ever dabble in, in singing or writing songs? Yeah, I grew up, I grew up, uh, singing and, and playing. Um,
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I think where it kinda ended for me was that I realized I was never the kind of si- the kind of singer I was was not the kind of singer I wanted to be. I was very, very good at classical, but I didn't care about that.
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I wanted, I wanted to be doing other styles of music, and I wasn't good at those. So, uh, when I was playing, I played
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bass and a little bi- little bit of guitar, and, you know, had studied, uh, studied music theory in college, so I had to learn piano, too. Um,
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and I was, I was good at bass, and I was only okay at the other two, and I got in a band that went on tour. We, we toured for, I think, about eight weeks, and
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once I got done with that tour, I realized I don't wanna be in a band, you know, 'cause there's... I didn't like being on the road. And I, I remember coming back from that tour and really racking my brain
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about, like, I love doing music, uh, and it's always been a part of my life, but I can't do this. And that's when I sorta realized that, well,
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I, I know a lot about music theory and, uh, a lot about musical instruments, and I know a lot about electronics, because my high school had an electronics lab. And so I was like, "Well, I'll just do engineering."
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And that was a very odd choice at the time. Like, people just didn't choose to become recording engineers very often. There...
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In, in Portland, Oregon, where I grew up, I think at the time there were fewer than a dozen of us in the whole city, you know? Um, so it was a very odd choice.
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Um, but I just saw that those were all my interests kinda wrapped into one, and I didn't have to go on tour. Mm-hmm. So that's why I went and bought a bunch of books and started reading and figured it out. Yeah.
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Well, good for you, man. That's, that's awesome. You're still, you're doing what you love, you know? It just may, may not be, uh, the path that most people would even think about.
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Well, my, uh, my father was a recording artist, so I knew a lot about being around the studio and the, the different jobs and, you know.
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Most of the guys in his band were professional session musicians, so it is a world that I was around a lot. Um, I, I, I just think it, it seemed really obvious to me, like, well, there's, this is the path, you know?
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Yeah. And I just never thought about doing anything else. I didn't give myself any options. It's like,
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basically lied to my first band and told them I knew what I was doing, and I showed up to the studio, and it turns out I did. So they ended up getting a record deal out of that demo, and then we went on and
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worked with some really great producers and some great studios, and it's kinda off to the races then. That's a great lesson, though, is like, you know,
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again, in the, the working career that I do as a day job, you know, we talk a lot about, about faking it till you make it, you know? And that, I guess that applies- Mm-hmm... to that.
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It's like, yeah, like, you know, I know what I'm doing, even though you kinda didn't, but you, you, you were able to get by. Yeah, I kinda did and kinda didn't. [laughs] It was funny. I, I had backup, you know.
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Um, there were, uh, there were some older guys who knew what they were doing who were willing to, uh, who were willing to teach me just enough to, to get through. And, you know, I, I'm really thankful for that. Yeah.
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I had a lot of great help. I read somewhere, too, that when you were, you were growing up, maybe it was your dad's influence, that you listened to a lot of gospel music. Is that right? Yeah, my dad was a gospel musician.
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Mm-hmm. Oh, cool. Yeah. I just, again, another interview I, I need to post. It's been a few months unfortunately. I've just been so busy. But I interviewed Jimmy Fortune of the Statler Brothers. Hmm.
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And, uh, you know, he had a long run with those guys. They, they kind of stopped doing that, and then he, he's been on his own solo journey for another 20 years, which is incredible.
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But he, he was telling me about the Ramada Inn circuit back in the [laughs] in the early '80s, you know? Wow. [laughs] And just the stories of those guys, man, is pretty wild. Yeah.
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I don't think my dad was ever on the Ramada Inn circuit. He was, he was playing every single church he could... you know, they could book, though, on the West Coast. You know,
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from Alaska to California, they probably played at every one of them, so. Yeah. That's neat. That's really neat. Um, well, so i- in another interviews, you've talked about this thing called, uh, studio fear,
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which I wanna, I wanna just follow up on, which is as you're doing your engineering thing, you're watching these artists come in, and I don't, I, I don't know if it's nerves or anxiety, but they...
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it, it feels like, again, based on what you said in other interviews, it's, it's almost like they're trying to be too perfect, you know? Um, instead of just letting your emotions- Yeah...
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and, and being, you know, back to the, the word authentic that we were talking about earlier- I guess in your role, how do you navigate that? And do you...
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And after 33 years or whatever, have you learned over time when to push and when to pull back? And so people aren't really worried about, like, the technical perfection that- Yeah...
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I think they're, like, they're hoping for? W- one of the things when you do this, you, you sort of realize that, um, most of the artists you work with have some kind of artistic dysmorphia.
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They don't know what makes them great. They, they... Because they can't see them. They don't, they don't hear it, you know? And what they hear
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when they hear their voice or their song or their instrument coming out of the speakers is they hear all the failures, all the things that they wish they were better at, and they don't hear the emotion and the feeling,
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you know, the, the real content of what they do. They don't... A lot of them don't hear it. Um, and I cannot say that I've successfully ever been able to communicate that, you know, um, to an artist. Like, some...
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You know, I've worked with some artists that are so great.
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One of my very best friends is an artist that's so great, and he just hasn't been able to get over the fear of hearing his own voice, and I think he's a great singer, you know?
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Um, everybody I know who's heard him sing thinks he's a great singer, but he doesn't think he's a great singer, and so it's completely kind of, you know, held his career back. And, um,
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one of the things that's really good is when you get someone who's good a- and they do know what makes them great, and they just don't have... Like, they don't approach the, the, um, the recording with fear.
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They re- they go like, "I'm a professional. I know what to do. I'm gonna go in. I'm gonna tell you what I like.
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I'm gonna tell you what I don't like, and we're gonna fix the things I don't like, and then we're gonna be done at the end of the day." And, um, and that's just a rare thing. It's a rare thing. So,
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um- Who, who have you worked with that would be a good example of that, that you just described? Uh, for sure Kacey Musgraves.
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She knows, she knows who she is, and she knows what she wants, and she just is very picky, but it's not out of fear. It's not out of any kind of, you know, um... It's not that she doesn't know what to do.
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It's that she knows exactly what to do, and we're just gonna work hard until we do it. Uh, Maggie Rose is another one.
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I just finished working on a record with her, and she's just such a good singer, and she knows what she's great at, and she does it. And, um, it's pretty obvious.
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I was talking with one of the producers today, and he was telling me that, um, when they went back to do all the final edits, uh, most of the vocals that they ended up using on the record were the live vocals in the room with the band, you know?
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Just because she got out there and did her job, you know? She was great. Awesome. Did, does anybody come to mind where they had the fear, and they, they didn't wanna...
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Or they, they weren't capable of sorta seeing themselves for who they were, and then- Yes. Uh, and I, I won't say his name- He, he didn't... you know, because I- He didn't... I feel like that wouldn't be kind.
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Um- Yeah... but there...
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Uh, an, an Australian artist that I was working with who had one of the most iconic voices I'd ever heard, and he was a great songwriter, and he was, uh, one of the best guitar players I'd ever worked with.
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And he came in, and his voice, the only way I can describe it is that, uh, it had that quality that you hear in, like, a Johnny Cash, you know?
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Or, you know, um, like, it was so, it was so uniquely him, but it was like, "Oh my God. This guy's a star," you know? You just knew it when you heard it. And, um, I mixed his record,
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and he came to me, and he was really, really unhappy, and I was like, you know, "What? Why?" And he said, "Well, I just don't like how my voice sounds."
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And, uh, he's like, "I, I went to this show where this guy ran his vocal through a Leslie speaker the whole time, and I really like how that sounds, so we're gonna do that."
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And he made me run all of his lead vocals that were just some of the most beautiful a- and incredible, like, rare vocals through a Leslie speaker, you know? To... Which is one of those rotating organ speakers, you know?
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It, it sounds
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stupid and goofy, and the producer and I to this day, we're s- we're still friends, and we, we kept the original mixes for ourselves 'cause we're like, we like to go back and listen to what it sounded like when it was a good record before this guy made us, you know, screw the whole thing up.
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He just didn't know. He didn't know that his voice was iconic. Yeah. And trying to tell him was just, like, you know, I don't know, it's like trying to e- explain math to a puppy. It's... He doesn't get the concept.
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He's never gonna get the concept. He's just too dumb. Dang. So- Well, yeah... it was sad. [laughs] I've had a lot of people- Yeah... do that, though. I, I've had a lot of people- Yeah...
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do that, where they don't know why they're great, and they just can't stop... Another thing that, that artists do that this is having to do with the fear is that, um...
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A- and they all kinda do the same thing, that I will give them a mix- And then I don't... They, they drop off the map. I don't hear from them for, like, days, maybe weeks.
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And what they're doing in that time is they're sitting up all night long and all day long, everywhere they go, only listening to their own music and their own mix, and they have found
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every single little element that makes it sound, you know, unique or human or, like, maybe like, "Oh, I heard, I heard myself take a breath in the bridge." It's like, that's what singers do.
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Like, it would sound very strange if you didn't breathe and tried to sing. [laughs] You know what I mean? Um, this is how we know it's not AI. It, it... like, these little things where, like, oh, maybe,
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maybe your, uh, guitar player jumped the gun on the entry to the second chorus. Like, well, we can fix it, but I don't know. Uh, or, or you, or you do something that has a really unique sound, like, a beautiful
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unique sound that's compelling and, because they have never heard it before, they make you change it. Um,
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and I will say this, that no one has ever, like, come to you, like, excited about a record and said, "Oh my God, you have to hear this. It's so safe." Like, you will never be surprised.
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Everything has happened before. They, they're just never gonna do that. That's not how we think about music. That's not how we talk about music. And y- Yeah...
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the only way you get there to do something that is a little bit dangerous, uh, and fun and interesting to a listener is to try new things and be willing to maybe leave some flaws in or create some flaws, you know?
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I don't know. I don't really care when I hear a guitar player's strings squeak- Right... because that's what guitar players sound like, you know?
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I don't, I don't mind that I hear the delay getting a little off time or the tremolo from the guitar isn't perfectly in sync with the tempo of the song. Like, that's, to me, that's texture. It's interesting.
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Um, I have a beautiful instrument here. Uh, it's a really old, uh, Japanese pump organ, and it's, like, got one of the most gorgeous sounds,
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but when you play it, you know, it has a bellows and it's got, you know, it's got these two, like, pedals that pump, and it's a mechanical thing where you're actually moving air through it and, you know, it, it makes...
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to be honest, it makes a lot of noise, you know? And I'm always like, "Imagine you're making a Tom Waits record. It's a feature, you know? It's a feature. Just enjoy it," you know?
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Because that's how that instrument sounds. And I'll tell you what happens nearly every time we record it. We get to mix, and the artist gets scared and makes me take it off.
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Because they're like, "But I hear it creaking." It's like, the creaking is the point, you know? So I don't know. The creaking is the... Yeah, the creaking is the point. That's a good, that's a- Yeah... good quote. Yeah.
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I, I'm with you. I, you know, yeah, everybody I talk to is talented. Yeah. You know, there's a spectrum, right? We talked about David Ryan Harris, who's, you know, otherworldly. Mm-hmm.
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And then there's a lot of other very talented people, and I'm, I'm, and I'm shocked at the, I'll just call it, like, general insecurity [laughs] about these folks. 'Cause
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y- I could never get up and play an instrument and sing, you know? Um, and, like, the fact that they do it is a win to me. Mm-hmm. And the fact that they're, like, incredible is another win.
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Um, and it's just, it's shocking how insecure many of them are. Not, maybe not all, but many of them are. And so, like, yeah, I'm with you. It's a, it's a really good perspective. Yeah.
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Um, all right, so a couple more questions. I really appreciate your time, Craig. Sure. So you listen to music all day, every day as part of, uh, the studio that, that, that you run in there in Muscle Shoals.
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When, when it, when you're not on, uh, the clock, if you will, who, who are you listening to?
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Well, I mean, this is one of those things where, um, these days when I, when I'm listening to music, like, I don't go home and put on records. I just don't. 'Cause, like, I really, really...
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uh, what you don't realize, and most people don't realize, is that critical listening, uh, is extremely taxing. Like, by the time I leave the studio at night, I'm exhausted. I'm really exhausted.
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And unless it's, like, a band that I really wanna see, um, you know. I used to go to three or four shows a week. Um, but, you know, now I don't. These days, what I'm listening to...
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Like, I was just working on a project for my friend Erin McCarley, and she was like, "I really like this song by The Marias."
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So I, I kinda got into listening to The Marias for a little bit, because I was trying to absorb what they were doing and go like, "Oh, this is what she likes now."
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And, uh, so a lot of the music that I get exposed to these days is coming through those channels, where it's, it's the artists I'm working with, the producers I'm working with.
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They, they are in- inspired by a sound, so I will go listen. I don't... Uh, I'm not, I'm not in my 20s, 30s, or even 40s anymore, where I would go seek it out. Um- Yeah...
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and, you know, I mean, a lot of, a lot of people I know who are engineers who do what I do, who, you know, have been doing it for a few decades, we're all kinda that way, you know? And I...
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I- it's like I do enjoy new music when I hear it. I really do. But honestly, I, I go home and I'm, I'm just tired, you know?
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And when you, when you sit and you've, like, worked for eight or 10 hours on something, and it's been loud, you just, you're not gonna go home and pull up Spotify and find the latest, greatest thing.
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That, that makes sense. Again, when I was, uh, in Muscle Shoals a couple years ago, the, the takeaway I had was that it, the process is so tedious, you know? Yes. Or it can be tedious.
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You know, you could do one take and like, "Okay, we're good." But, you know, typically it's, it's a lot of back and forth, back and forth, and so I, I appreciate- Yeah... your point on that. Yeah.
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Yeah, and it's, you know, while those takes are going down, I'm, you know, I'm doing a lot of things.
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I'm, I'm learning the arrangement, 'cause a lot of times I'm hearing these songs for the first time as they're going down.
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So I'm, I'm plotting out the arrangement, I'm learning it, um, I'm noticing where maybe the bass player played a wrong note, maybe the guitar player's missed an entrance or, you know, maybe the snare's going out of tune.
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Um, I'm listening for all of that stuff, and we may record the song seven or eight times, and then we might do three, four songs that day, you know? So that's just a lot of listening, and- Yeah...
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it's not just listening to the music, it's also listening to the people in the room and like, what do they need, you know? Um, do they need me to make copies? Do they need me to make coffee? Do they need water?
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Do they need to go get lunch? You know, like where... They don't know where the good lunch spots are. I have to, I have to help them with all that, you know? And, uh, but it's all listening.
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So, you know, it's just, again, people don't realize how exhausting, uh, real listening is. Another great quote. Yeah. That's a good, that's a good perspective. Um, all right, so f- so final question. Uh,
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this podcast that I have, it's called Curious Goldfish. It's from Ted Lasso. I, I just combined a couple of the scenes. I don't know if you watch that show, but it's really a, it...
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Uh, what I'm trying to do is a, it's a tribute to the artist, you know? Like, and, and I, obviously I consider you an artist even though you're not, you're not singing and playing.
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But, um, but it's also a tribute to the, the need for more curiosity in the world. Mm-hmm. And I, I would assume that if you study music theory and if you're an engineer, you're generally curious by nature.
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Uh, so I ask everybody this, but I, I'm excited to hear what, what you have to say. I guess at, at this point in your, in your career and what you're doing today, I guess, what are you most curious about? Well, I've...
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Uh, lately, um, I sorta had a realization that I didn't know much about philosophy,
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and that because I had not, that was just something I'd never educated myself on, and I realized I was missing out on a lot of really, like, good, you know, plots and storylines and jokes and, you know, uh, just insight, especially when it comes to pop culture.
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Mm-hmm. Like, it had all... Like, a lot of stuff just was kinda going over my head, and it was only when I started listening to a podcast about philosophy that I realized, like, "Oh, that's what that's about. Oh, okay."
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And I, I... So now I'm like, "Okay, I have to learn this. Uh, I guess I should've, I should've paid more attention." [laughs] But, but I, I really am enjoying learning about it, you know?
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And I, I'm certainly no expert on it, but I, I am definitely enjoying it because, uh, it's giving me so much more insight into just how people communicate and, and the concepts and ideas and where they came from, you know, behind what they're saying, and especially in art.
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Yeah. How, how has that curiosity manifested itself in, in your, in your job at the studio? Is there an example where the, your, your- Well-... interest in philosophy has actually applied- So-...
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applied to what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, like, I, I think that, uh, a lot of times people, um, people in their music will, will ask a lot of the, like, kind of the bigger questions in life, you know? Um,
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you know, how, the, kinda like how did we get here? You know, uh, is there ultimate purpose and meaning? You know, um, a lot of that stuff, and just knowing what's been written about it. And when I hear them,
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you know, writing and singing about it, I have a better idea.
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I ha- I actually know the history of what, you know, why, and in some cases, you know, I'm even able to say like, "Oh, did you know that that concept came from here?"
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Um, you know, on, uh, on Kacey's last record, there was a song called The Architect that very much was a- about, uh, what I believe they call the teleo- the teleological ar- argument.
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And, um, you know, where she's just looking around at the world and the universe and going like, "It seems so amazing. Can I speak to the architect?" You know? And, uh, and I'm like, "Oh, I know what that's about."
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You know? I get it. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Where, you know, a lot of times- That's great... especially in pop culture, um, I would read things, you know, 'cause I, I read a lot when I was growing up and, you know, um,
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uh, I just thought a lot of times people were being silly or absurd, and I didn't know that there was actually a deeper meaning behind some of the things they were saying. All right. Well, thanks for sharing, Craig.
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That, that's awesome. Um, and again, thank you f- thank you so much for your time. I know y- I know you're busy. It was great catching up, and I'd love to come, uh, and check out the studio sometime. Oh, absolutely.
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You should. Next time you're down here visiting the guys over at, uh, over at Ivy Manor- Yeah... you need to stop by. We're only a few blocks away. No, that's awesome. All right, man.
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Well, have a great rest of your 2026 and, uh, you know, look forward to all the, all the great music that you're putting together. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks, Craig.
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[guitar music] O- one of the things when you do this, you, you sort of realize that most of the artists you work with have some kind of artistic dysmorphia.
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They don't know what makes them great because they can't see them. They don't hear it. What they hear
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when they hear their voice or their song or their instrument coming out of the speakers is they hear all the failures, all the things that they wish they were better at, and they don't hear the emotion and the feeling,
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the real content of what they do. They don't... A lot of them don't hear it. One of the things that's really good is when you get someone who's good a- and
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they do know what makes them great, and, and that's just a rare thing. It's a rare thing.
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[guitar music] Welcome to Curious Goldfish, a podcast community where music and curiosity come together through interesting conversations with the music makers of our world. I'm your host, Jason English.
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You can find Curious Goldfish in all the major podcast and social media platforms. And of course, we have all of our content on our website, curiousgoldfish.com.
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[guitar music] Artistic dysmorphia. That's Craig Alvin's term for it.
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It reframed almost every conversation I've had with an artist on Curious Goldfish. Craig is a Grammy-winning engineer who's worked with Kacey Musgraves, Little Big Town, and Hanson.
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He runs Noble Steed Studios out of a converted doctor's office in Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
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The studio comes complete with a 1962 console that sounds better than anything built since and a $50 compressor he bought in 1992 that's now worth about $8,000. But Muscle Shoals does something to people.
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Craig thinks it's two things: a culture where musical talent is so common nobody bothers to mention it, and a deep, settled quiet. No planes, no highway noise, nothing pulling your attention away from the work.
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That combination strips away noise, literally and psychologically, and what's left is either gonna be honest or it's gonna be afraid.
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And a lot of what Craig does after 33 years behind the board is helping artists stop choosing afraid. So from Muscle Shoals, here's Craig Alvin. Let's dive in. So hey, Craig. Hey.
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So, uh, it's r- I really appreciate your time. Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you, too. Uh, is, are you calling in from, from Muscle Shoals, Alabama? Is that right? Yeah. I'm in the Shoals right now. In the Shoals.
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Who you working with this week or last week? What's on your mind right now in terms of, uh, working with artists and, and- I work with a lot of different people.
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Um, so, uh, just last week, we had, uh, a lady in who was, uh, working on a record. Um, she brought a bunch of great session musicians out, and, um, we had David Ryan Harris producing, so that was a lot of fun. Um,
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I do a lot of mix work, so most of my work these days still comes in just online, and I mix it and, you know, send it back. Um, but you know, we do have a full studio here.
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Uh, got a beautiful API console over here and a old tube Universal Audio 610 console that we record through.
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You know, like most places, we have various options, but it's all, you know, primarily Pro Tools and, you know, the rest, uh, everything on the front end is beautiful vintage analog equipment. Yeah. No, that's great.
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So is it, was it Jennifer Simpson that was out there? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, I know Jennifer... I actually, David Ryan Harris was on, uh, I interviewed him about six weeks ago.
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I haven't published the episode yet, but- Nice... I talked to him down at 30A Songwriters Festival, and he's played in our, uh, backyard concert series that we do as part of the podcast here in Atlanta.
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So he's, uh, he's incredible. Yeah. Very, very talented man. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, to say the least, but, uh, yeah. No, I saw- [laughs]... the, the clips of Jennifer, uh, doing some recording.
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I, I didn't know it was at Noble Steed, so that, that's awesome. Yeah. Can't wait to hear that. Yep.
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Um, well, I guess for, for people that may be listening or watching that may not know who Craig Alvin is, uh, again, I'm not gonna rehash your, your life story or your, or your career, but obviously you, you've worked with a number of people through the years in music, uh, most notably Hanson and Little Big Town and Kacey Musgraves and, uh, probably a bunch of others.
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So, um, congrats on your career, um, o- on, you know, just all the things.
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So I, I just wanted to ask you about artificial intelligence 'cause you just mentioned, you know, some of your vintage equipment that, uh, is so important to the recording process and, uh, you've talked about the character of gear and, and how important that is.
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You know, I'll just start out with, like, kind of a general question. Like, what's your general point of view about the use of AI in, in music today? Well, I, I remember
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way back when drum machines first came out and everybody said, "Oh, it's over for session players, especially drummers."
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And then when Auto-Tune came out, everyone said, "Oh, you don't even have to be a good singer anymore." And, you know, uh,
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we've watched all these different technologies come and go, and AI is different, but it's funny how some of it, some of it is useful. Um, and the useful stuff will get used. Like I, I had a-
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A mix I was working on where the drummer was singing background vocals, and the drums were bleeding into his vocal mic so much that I couldn't use it, but I was able to use an AI app to remove those two and, uh, and have a clean vocal.
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That's a great use, um, and there's plenty of other uses like that. Um, but as far as, like,
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what we're starting to see in the session world, um, when people are coming in with s- uh, songs that they have used AI to help write and the demos that they have made with AI, what we're finding is that when we get to the real world, uh, and try to get real musicians to do a performance, it's not very helpful.
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In fact, it kind of... It creates more problems than it solves, and I think people are quickly realizing that, you know... I mean, I'm tired.
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I wish the robots would take over, but I just don't think that that day is, is here yet. [laughs] So. That's a great way to put it, yeah. Um, so do you think...
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Are musicians a little bit hesitant to even admit that they're using AI to either kind of round out a song or a lyric and then also on the, on the demo side, or do you think people are more comfortable, at least on the demos, acknowledging that, yeah, like I, I didn't have to pay a bunch of people to, like, record this for me?
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I mean, yeah, I think people are, uh, a little reluctant to, you know, to say that they've been using AI.
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But honestly, most of the time when people come in and they have used AI as part of the process, it's really obvious. You know? Like, you can really tell. Yeah. And, um, I don't know.
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I, I've always been someone who really... I, I believe that when you're making a recording, authenticity is the most important thing, and, you know, moving forward, you know, with that authenticity and having
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not just a lack of fear, but sometimes just having the courage to be real and, and tell a true story or, or reveal a true emotion, that's like, AI can't do that. You know? It really can't.
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And, um, so I, I don't know. I'm not too worried about it.
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Uh, I think that there's gonna be good uses and bad uses, and some people are gonna be able to find interesting ways to make interesting music with AI moving forward, and that's- Mm... that's gonna be fine too. Yeah.
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All right, well, thanks, thanks for sharing that. So again, I'm not gonna pretend that I know all the equipment that you use and some of the ones that you mentioned earlier, uh, a few minutes ago.
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But I was, uh, I, I actually have been able to sit in on a recording, um, session in Muscle Shoals at a different studio a couple years ago, and, uh,
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it was great to see the old gear and, and, and, you know, to hear about the stories of where the different pieces of equipment came from, and it sounds like- Yeah...
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it, it, at Noble Steed, which, uh, you and, uh, your partner Jason started a few years ago. Uh, can you just kinda talk a little bit about
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the, the different sound that comes out of the older equipment and, and I think you've again, uh, mentioned in other interviews the character and the personality that it has. Uh, can you give me an example of that? Yeah.
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Um, well, I, I'll tell you what, what's really funny, especially, uh, when I'm using the old tube console, you know, that, that thing was built, I think, in 1960, and you would think that it wouldn't sound as good as new stuff.
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Uh, but what's always shocking to people when they get here is how much better it sounds than anything they're used to using. It's just...
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It's really wide open and clean and clear and hi-fi, and I think it's so much that way that I think it kinda disappoints people who are expecting it to sound old and kinda crusty, you know? Because it's just not.
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It's just wide open and clear. It's, it's really, really beautiful.
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It's like we all know the difference between a, a film that was shot on film versus a film that was shot digital and then was, you know, uh, processed and treated to look more like film.
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You know, these days, so many of the, of the software tools we have are just trying to take this, you know, the newer stuff, the newer equipment, and make it sound kinda like the old equipment, but the way they do that is usually by adding a significant am- a significant amount of distortion.
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And when you're dealing with something like an old Universal Audio console, um, if, if it's distorting, you're not using it right.
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It's meant to be as clean and noise-free and beautiful-sounding as, as possible, and they were able to do incredible stuff with just some vacuum tubes and transformers and capacitors.
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These are brilliant designs, and that's the reason why they are, are so expensive these days. Um, you know, not only because they're rare, but because they really do just sound better.
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Based on your experience, was it a pretty quick learn for you to use s- you know, what some would consider technical limitations of the older equipment to your advantage, or did that just come- Well-...
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with much of, much experience? I think, yeah, uh, the, the old stuff was what I... I mean, I've been doing this for 33 years, so the old stuff was what we had when I started. Was what you had, yeah. You know?
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We were still recording everything to tape- Mm...
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and, you know, we were using, um, classic designs of outboard gear, and, um, back in the Early '90s when I kinda got my start, um, a lot of this old stuff wasn't worth much because the new stuff was what everyone wanted back then.
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So I just went and bought up all the old stuff because it was what I was, what I could afford, you know? [laughs] And now the stuff's worth a fortune.
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Um, I think right behind me here you can see this, uh, this compressor here, the gray with the big meter. That's the very first piece of equipment I ever bought, and I think I got it in about 1992.
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I paid $50 for it, and now if you look 'em up on eBay, they're $7,000, $8,000, you know? [laughs] Oh my gosh. But I got it for $50, so... 'Cause no one wanted 'em.
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And in fact, I remember other engineers kinda laughing at me, going like, "Why do you wanna use that old broadcast junk?" And now they're all fighting to get it. So I don't know. I guess, uh, sometimes poverty pays.
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[laughs] That's good. [laughs] Well, it kinda goes back to the AI discussion. I, I, I do think there's, there's gonna be a, um,
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a desire and a craving for m- more authentic music and songwriting, and I think, like, the... It sounds like the gear has already sort of made that, made that transition, you know? Yeah.
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The, the interesting thing, like I did, like back around 20... I think it was 2019 that I moved out of my main studio in Nashville, um, where I, I'd been forever, and, um,
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I had to make the transition over to mixing all digitally i- in the computer. And I had always mixed on an analog console before then, and because I didn't know, like really
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how else to do it, I just basically built a template where, because we have software models of all this equipment that I have, the, you know, the real analog equipment in the room, we have software models of it all.
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So I just built a template that was exactly like what I was doing on an analog console and learned to use that, and it works great, you know?
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Um, at one point, uh, I remember trying to mix in the box and it was not so great. Um, but these days it works great. You just have to know how to mix and, and take your time, do a good job, you know?
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Uh, and it works fine. So I do, um, I do some like hybrid mixing here where when I'm mixing a project, I will use the software tools and the hardware tools.
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Um, you know, just kind of mixing and matching whatever sounds better and whatever's gonna work better for that project. Okay. So Noble Steed is in Muscle Shoals.
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Uh, I know Muscle Shoals has gotten a lot of attention in the last decade or so based on, you know, some of the legendary studios that are there. Mm-hmm. And, you know, there's b- more that are opening up.
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I, I, I have a couple questions about that. One, why did you and Jason decide to do another one? 'Cause it, you know...
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I don't know how many there are, but I know that there are at least, you know, at least a dozen- Yeah... uh, if not more. Um- There's definitely more... and then is there a, um... What's the community like with
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the other r- the, the other studios? Is it competitive or is it supportive or j- I guess it just depends on who's running 'em.
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Um, I'm gonna answer your second question first, is that I get along with all the other studio owners and, and engineers and musicians. We help each other out any way we can. Um,
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you know, uh, it's really, I would say, just a good community. Um, so I, I'm very happy about that.
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But, um, the reason why we decided to open a studio, when I, when I moved down here, I really did think that I was going to just lease one of the other rooms, and I did for a while.
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I leased a room at Cypress Moon for a, I think almost two years, which was a beautiful room. It's, uh, down, right on the river. But
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the reason we bought this place, uh, i- is because I, I just kinda need to have my own shop because I have to be able to come and go when I please.
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And sometimes I, I'll be off in New York for two weeks working on something or up in Nashville working on something and, um, I don't know.
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Plus I had all this stuff and it just made sense- You had all the stuff already [laughs]. That's good... yeah, just to put it all in one room and then, you know, instead of paying someone else, you know?
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I, I m- uh, essentially paying the same amount, if not a, a, a little less actually to just- Hmm... have a place that we own. So that made a lot more sense to me.
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I've never had a studio that was exactly set up the way I wanted it to be. Uh, it was always, uh, someone else had done the design or someone else was the owner.
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Um, and I wanted to finally prove to myself that if I could, you know, get in and do it the way I believed it really should be done, that it would be better, and I really believe that we have proved that.
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You know, that all the experience I, I, I was freelance for a very long time and I, I've always gone and worked in other studios and I've always kinda scratched my head and wondered why they were
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se- setting up and working the way they were working, 'cause it never made sense to me. Um,
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so I, I had some very specific ideas of how I wanted things to do, particularly with monitoring and acoustics and, uh, ventilation and, you know, stuff like that.
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I had, I had a, a pretty clear goal in mind, and I really believe that we've achieved all those goals. So you guys took an old house.
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Is the, is the main recording area, is it the, kinda the big living room or do you have it, do you have different rooms set, kinda set up for different purposes?
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No, we're, uh, the house is actually the guest house for the studio. So, uh, which is a few blocks away. The main studio building is an old doctor's office that we- Oh, cool... um, remodeled into a studio. Okay.
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So it's just like, is it one big room that used to be the office, basically? Well, yeah, um, we have one big room that's the control room. Uh- Mm...
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we have some instruments in here like the piano and the organ and, and stuff like that. And then we have two smaller booths, um, one where mainly for vocals, and then one mainly for drums.
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Um, and then, uh, you know, we also have, like, a kitchen area and a little bar, uh, kind of a speakeasy bar because all the Muscle Shoals studios had that back in the day, 'cause this was a dry county.
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So, uh- [laughs] Got it... we kinda mimicked that in one corner of the building. Uh, mainly just for parties, when we throw parties and have events here, you know. [laughs] That's cool. Yeah.
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Well, uh, not to get too mystic, uh, on you, but when I was in Muscle Shoals a couple years ago, and I've, I've talked to a few people that, you know, have recorded since then. They, they do talk about the sound, right?
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And that, that's come up on, you know, the documentary and everything. But I don't know, do you think it's the river? Do you think it's the energy from the, the Tennessee River? Do you think it's the history?
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Do you think it's nothing? You know, I, I, I'm just- There's-... curious what, what's driving that mysticism about, about recording in Muscle Shoals? Well, I, I will say that, um, there just is something
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kind of, uh, I don't wanna say magical, 'cause I'm not really that a magical thinker. Um, but there is something that, that feels special down here. And I, I attribute it to two things.
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One is that it's the culture, because everyone I meet down here just plays music and loves music and is good at music. And, um, you know, it,
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I, I've had friends that I've known for, you know, a couple years before I knew that they were really an outstanding songwriter, you know, or that they could play everything really well, you know.
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[laughs] Uh, it's just so common that they don't bother to mention it, you know. It's just part of the culture. But the other thing that I think that's truly unique is just how quiet this place is. Um,
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and I think that has a deep psychological effect on musicians.
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You know, when you're in a place where you're not hearing planes going overhead, and you're over an hour away from a freeway, like the kind of quiet that really, really settles into you.
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Uh, it just, I don't know, it, it, it takes a lot of stress off your mind, and I think makes a lot more room for music. And those, so those are my two theories. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that, that's really cool.
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Um, by the way, the, that studio I was at, I don't know if you, do you know Dane Hannon and those guys over at Ivy Manor? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. They're good friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's cool.
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They're just, uh, kind of around the corner from us here in Sheffield. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. Super cool setup, too. Um, well, good.
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Well, we've gone, I don't know, 20 minutes or so, and I failed to mention that y- you've won a Grammy, uh- [laughs]... which, you know, congrats on [laughs] that. Thanks. That, that's obviously incredible.
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Um, and that was with, uh, Kacey Musgraves', uh, the album Golden Hour. Yeah. Obviously, that, was that recorded in Muscle Shoals, or was that recorded somewhere else? No, that was, uh, that was recorded in Nashville.
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That was in Nashville, okay. Yeah. I guess not to, you know, that's been six or seven years ago, and you may love talking about it. I know you've, you've talked a lot about it through the years.
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I guess my question on, on that experience is, there's a guy in Nashville that I, that I spoke with in the fall who's a member of the Nashville Songwriter Hall of Fame, and he, he talks about when he's writing a song, it's, uh, Roger Murrah.
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So he, he did a lot of, a lot of the big country hits back in the '80s with, like, the Oak Ridge Boys and, uh, different folks.
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But, um, he talks about this, like, when y- you know, when you're writing a lyric and you, and you get it down on paper, you're looking for that magic, and, and you know the magic when it happens.
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When you were going through, uh, the work with Kacey on that Golden Hour album, did you realize that it was magic, what you all were creating, uh, in the moment?
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I- And can you, can you take, take me back to that, to that time? Yeah, I, um, I think if, if my memory is correct, I think the first song we worked on was Oh, What a World on the first day.
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And I, I mean, I just couldn't, when I heard, like, just the demo of it, I couldn't believe it. And, uh, I had a feeling that first day that, that it was gonna, you know, it was gonna win a Grammy. I, I really did.
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But I didn't say anything to anyone 'cause I didn't wanna jinx it. But I remember going home and debating with myself on the drive home, like, "Do I mention that to my wife?
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But, but if I say it out loud, I'll jinx it," you know? Um, so I, I never did. But, uh, we, you know, that was just a, yeah, it really was a special experience.
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All the, all the songs that came together on that and that team of people, we just were, it was the right people in the right room at the right moment. And every once in a while you get to be a part of that.
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You know, you can't manufacture it. But if you do this long enough, every once in a while, you'll, you know, show up somewhere and realize, oh, okay, it's one of those days. No, that's amazing. I mean- Yeah...
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congrats on having that experience, you know. And, and, uh, obviously g- congrats on the recognition. The, um, and I don't, uh, this is more outta curiosity. I don't wanna get into, like, specifics.
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But as, as, in your role as, like, the audio engineer, if a song like Space Cowboy- You know, hits whatever, 20 million streams or whatever. Does that...
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I know, I know the streaming thing's a whole separate topic about, like, how much is paid and everything, but is your f- are your fees basically kinda like one and done?
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Or do you get any, any, any upside if, if a song goes from 10 streams to, you know, 10 billion? Uh, so, uh,
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because I, I mixed, um, some of the songs on the record, I was given, um, I was giving, given points. Okay. Uh, but, you know, uh, I, I just...
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At the end of the record, I sold my points back to Kacey because I didn't really, you know. I don't know. I've, I've always felt weird about that whole thing. If I had been a songwriter, I would feel different. Right.
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Um, you know, at, at the end of it- No, that's interesting... I, I just, I remember having a conversation with my then manager, um, and, you know, going like, "What, what do we do with these points? They're just,
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it's impossible to chase down the money, and we don't know if anything's gonna be a hit or not, you know?" And so, uh,
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he and I just, you know, basically reached out to her team and said, "Hey, we wanna sell these back to you. Do you guys want them?" And they, they bought them. And you know, I got a fair price for it, so. Yeah. Yeah.
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No, that's cool. The, [clears throat] the whole monetization aspect of music is, is crazy these days. I've actually two questions.
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For artists and, and s- you know, people like Kacey, obviously she's on a, she's on a different level, but y- you work with all sorts of artists that have all sorts of levels of either experience or success.
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Where do you see them having the most success when you, when you measure that success through, you know, being able to pay the bills and earn a living, you know?
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Do, is there, have you seen through the years, like, okay, these f- folks are figuring it out, and it looks like, you know, X, Y, and Z? Do, do you have any, do you have any feedback on that?
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Uh, well, first of all, I don't know anything about the money side or the business side of the music business. Um, I know a lot about microphones and instruments- [laughs]... you know, speakers.
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I know a lot about that stuff. Um, how anyone makes money is a mystery to me. Um, you know, eh, that's one of the reasons why I have, uh, why I have Jason Spiewak over at Noble Steed, 'cause he's good at that stuff.
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Mm-hmm. I'm not, you know. Uh, I just love doing this. I'd give it away for free, um, because that's just kinda my nature. The one thing that I do see
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in the people who are really successful, they just are those people who are driven, and they just get up and do it every day like it's a job, you know. Like, they're very serious about every aspect of it, so.
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Like, in your role, has it changed for you since 1992 in terms of, like, how you, you know, how you, how you look at paying the bills and, and making a, making a career? Or has it not changed that much?
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Uh, it, it hasn't changed that much, you know. I've never really done any real marketing. So, um, a lot of people want me to start making, like, YouTube or TikTok videos or something like that, and it...
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If I wanted to go into video production, I would've gone into video production. It's not who I am. It's not, I don't care about it. Yeah. You know?
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I'm one of those people that, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of people my age who we didn't grow up with the social media thing, so it's sorta hard to, like, relate to it. I understand that it's important.
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It's just not important to me. Um, so that's why we have people that help me with that. [laughs] 'Cause- Sure... otherwise I'm never gonna do anything, 'cause I, I don't...
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I'll go, I, I go to the studio every day and make things sound good, but, you know, as far as what makes a good, you know, video, I, I don't know.
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And, and honestly, if I ever had a video that went any kind of viral, I don't know that I would even know. [laughs] So. I'm fascinated by the whole thing, just how much things are changing, you know?
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And, um, and I, again, a lot of the people I talk to are sort of independent singer-songwriters- Yeah... who are pouring their soul out in front of six people at a bar, you know? Uh- It's always been that way, though.
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It's always been that way. Yeah. 'Cause, you know, you go back to, like, when I was first getting into the music industry, there was no internet, you know. Um, and you would go pour yourself out to six people at a bar,
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and they would just be talking and drinking the whole time, and then you'd go home and be discouraged about it. And then you just didn't have the money to go and record.
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So you couldn't even make that, you know, that single or, you know, the cassette you would sell at your show, 'cause studio time was so expensive.
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And now at least people have some good, inexpensive tools, and if they apply themselves, they can make a decent demo, you know? So I, I don't know. Um- Yeah...
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you know, maybe you can't really sell demos, but at least you can put it up on Spotify and people can listen.
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And, you know, back, you know, back in, what, 1993, to go into a real studio, just to buy the tape was $300, and that'll give you 15 minutes of recording time. Um, that was, that's crazy, you know? Yeah.
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Uh, it was very, very expensive. And, uh, and then most of the time the people that were kinda doing it really weren't music professionals, you know?
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They were maybe technically good at their job, but they didn't, they didn't have any vision. They were just trying to... They, they'd probably record jingles most of the time for, like, local businesses. Um, so-
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I don't know. I, I feel like, I feel like the story is the same but different. And, uh, it's always been difficult to make your living doing music, and I, I don't think that that- that's ever gonna change.
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Just, it's just not. We're, we're in the same spot, I think. Um, it's just that, uh, the labels found new ways to steal money from the artists. They're not using the old ways anymore, so...
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[laughs] That's good, that's good perspective. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, the whole thing's crazy. I, I, you know, I, again, I've talked to h- now over 100 people for this, for this podcast, and it's...
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the stories that I hear and, you know, to your po- to your point, it's, uh, yeah, they're just, it's just different ways to embezzle. Yeah. Um...
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[laughs] Were, so were, were you always on the engineering side, or did you ever dabble in, in singing or writing songs? Yeah, I grew up, I grew up, uh, singing and, and playing. Um,
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I think where it kinda ended for me was that I realized I was never the kind of si- the kind of singer I was was not the kind of singer I wanted to be. I was very, very good at classical, but I didn't care about that.
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I wanted, I wanted to be doing other styles of music, and I wasn't good at those. So, uh, when I was playing, I played
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bass and a little bi- little bit of guitar, and, you know, had studied, uh, studied music theory in college, so I had to learn piano, too. Um,
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and I was, I was good at bass, and I was only okay at the other two, and I got in a band that went on tour. We, we toured for, I think, about eight weeks, and
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once I got done with that tour, I realized I don't wanna be in a band, you know, 'cause there's... I didn't like being on the road. And I, I remember coming back from that tour and really racking my brain
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about, like, I love doing music, uh, and it's always been a part of my life, but I can't do this. And that's when I sorta realized that, well,
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I, I know a lot about music theory and, uh, a lot about musical instruments, and I know a lot about electronics, because my high school had an electronics lab. And so I was like, "Well, I'll just do engineering."
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And that was a very odd choice at the time. Like, people just didn't choose to become recording engineers very often. There...
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In, in Portland, Oregon, where I grew up, I think at the time there were fewer than a dozen of us in the whole city, you know? Um, so it was a very odd choice.
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Um, but I just saw that those were all my interests kinda wrapped into one, and I didn't have to go on tour. Mm-hmm. So that's why I went and bought a bunch of books and started reading and figured it out. Yeah.
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Well, good for you, man. That's, that's awesome. You're still, you're doing what you love, you know? It just may, may not be, uh, the path that most people would even think about.
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Well, my, uh, my father was a recording artist, so I knew a lot about being around the studio and the, the different jobs and, you know.
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Most of the guys in his band were professional session musicians, so it is a world that I was around a lot. Um, I, I, I just think it, it seemed really obvious to me, like, well, there's, this is the path, you know?
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Yeah. And I just never thought about doing anything else. I didn't give myself any options. It's like,
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basically lied to my first band and told them I knew what I was doing, and I showed up to the studio, and it turns out I did. So they ended up getting a record deal out of that demo, and then we went on and
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worked with some really great producers and some great studios, and it's kinda off to the races then. That's a great lesson, though, is like, you know,
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again, in the, the working career that I do as a day job, you know, we talk a lot about, about faking it till you make it, you know? And that, I guess that applies- Mm-hmm... to that.
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It's like, yeah, like, you know, I know what I'm doing, even though you kinda didn't, but you, you, you were able to get by. Yeah, I kinda did and kinda didn't. [laughs] It was funny. I, I had backup, you know.
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Um, there were, uh, there were some older guys who knew what they were doing who were willing to, uh, who were willing to teach me just enough to, to get through. And, you know, I, I'm really thankful for that. Yeah.
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I had a lot of great help. I read somewhere, too, that when you were, you were growing up, maybe it was your dad's influence, that you listened to a lot of gospel music. Is that right? Yeah, my dad was a gospel musician.
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Mm-hmm. Oh, cool. Yeah. I just, again, another interview I, I need to post. It's been a few months unfortunately. I've just been so busy. But I interviewed Jimmy Fortune of the Statler Brothers. Hmm.
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And, uh, you know, he had a long run with those guys. They, they kind of stopped doing that, and then he, he's been on his own solo journey for another 20 years, which is incredible.
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But he, he was telling me about the Ramada Inn circuit back in the [laughs] in the early '80s, you know? Wow. [laughs] And just the stories of those guys, man, is pretty wild. Yeah.
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I don't think my dad was ever on the Ramada Inn circuit. He was, he was playing every single church he could... you know, they could book, though, on the West Coast. You know,
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from Alaska to California, they probably played at every one of them, so. Yeah. That's neat. That's really neat. Um, well, so i- in another interviews, you've talked about this thing called, uh, studio fear,
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which I wanna, I wanna just follow up on, which is as you're doing your engineering thing, you're watching these artists come in, and I don't, I, I don't know if it's nerves or anxiety, but they...
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it, it feels like, again, based on what you said in other interviews, it's, it's almost like they're trying to be too perfect, you know? Um, instead of just letting your emotions- Yeah...
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and, and being, you know, back to the, the word authentic that we were talking about earlier- I guess in your role, how do you navigate that? And do you...
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And after 33 years or whatever, have you learned over time when to push and when to pull back? And so people aren't really worried about, like, the technical perfection that- Yeah...
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I think they're, like, they're hoping for? W- one of the things when you do this, you, you sort of realize that, um, most of the artists you work with have some kind of artistic dysmorphia.
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They don't know what makes them great. They, they... Because they can't see them. They don't, they don't hear it, you know? And what they hear
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when they hear their voice or their song or their instrument coming out of the speakers is they hear all the failures, all the things that they wish they were better at, and they don't hear the emotion and the feeling,
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you know, the, the real content of what they do. They don't... A lot of them don't hear it. Um, and I cannot say that I've successfully ever been able to communicate that, you know, um, to an artist. Like, some...
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You know, I've worked with some artists that are so great.
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One of my very best friends is an artist that's so great, and he just hasn't been able to get over the fear of hearing his own voice, and I think he's a great singer, you know?
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Um, everybody I know who's heard him sing thinks he's a great singer, but he doesn't think he's a great singer, and so it's completely kind of, you know, held his career back. And, um,
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one of the things that's really good is when you get someone who's good a- and they do know what makes them great, and they just don't have... Like, they don't approach the, the, um, the recording with fear.
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They re- they go like, "I'm a professional. I know what to do. I'm gonna go in. I'm gonna tell you what I like.
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I'm gonna tell you what I don't like, and we're gonna fix the things I don't like, and then we're gonna be done at the end of the day." And, um, and that's just a rare thing. It's a rare thing. So,
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um- Who, who have you worked with that would be a good example of that, that you just described? Uh, for sure Kacey Musgraves.
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She knows, she knows who she is, and she knows what she wants, and she just is very picky, but it's not out of fear. It's not out of any kind of, you know, um... It's not that she doesn't know what to do.
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It's that she knows exactly what to do, and we're just gonna work hard until we do it. Uh, Maggie Rose is another one.
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I just finished working on a record with her, and she's just such a good singer, and she knows what she's great at, and she does it. And, um, it's pretty obvious.
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I was talking with one of the producers today, and he was telling me that, um, when they went back to do all the final edits, uh, most of the vocals that they ended up using on the record were the live vocals in the room with the band, you know?
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Just because she got out there and did her job, you know? She was great. Awesome. Did, does anybody come to mind where they had the fear, and they, they didn't wanna...
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Or they, they weren't capable of sorta seeing themselves for who they were, and then- Yes. Uh, and I, I won't say his name- He, he didn't... you know, because I- He didn't... I feel like that wouldn't be kind.
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Um- Yeah... but there...
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Uh, an, an Australian artist that I was working with who had one of the most iconic voices I'd ever heard, and he was a great songwriter, and he was, uh, one of the best guitar players I'd ever worked with.
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And he came in, and his voice, the only way I can describe it is that, uh, it had that quality that you hear in, like, a Johnny Cash, you know?
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Or, you know, um, like, it was so, it was so uniquely him, but it was like, "Oh my God. This guy's a star," you know? You just knew it when you heard it. And, um, I mixed his record,
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and he came to me, and he was really, really unhappy, and I was like, you know, "What? Why?" And he said, "Well, I just don't like how my voice sounds."
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And, uh, he's like, "I, I went to this show where this guy ran his vocal through a Leslie speaker the whole time, and I really like how that sounds, so we're gonna do that."
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And he made me run all of his lead vocals that were just some of the most beautiful a- and incredible, like, rare vocals through a Leslie speaker, you know? To... Which is one of those rotating organ speakers, you know?
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It, it sounds
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stupid and goofy, and the producer and I to this day, we're s- we're still friends, and we, we kept the original mixes for ourselves 'cause we're like, we like to go back and listen to what it sounded like when it was a good record before this guy made us, you know, screw the whole thing up.
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He just didn't know. He didn't know that his voice was iconic. Yeah. And trying to tell him was just, like, you know, I don't know, it's like trying to e- explain math to a puppy. It's... He doesn't get the concept.
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He's never gonna get the concept. He's just too dumb. Dang. So- Well, yeah... it was sad. [laughs] I've had a lot of people- Yeah... do that, though. I, I've had a lot of people- Yeah...
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do that, where they don't know why they're great, and they just can't stop... Another thing that, that artists do that this is having to do with the fear is that, um...
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A- and they all kinda do the same thing, that I will give them a mix- And then I don't... They, they drop off the map. I don't hear from them for, like, days, maybe weeks.
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And what they're doing in that time is they're sitting up all night long and all day long, everywhere they go, only listening to their own music and their own mix, and they have found
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every single little element that makes it sound, you know, unique or human or, like, maybe like, "Oh, I heard, I heard myself take a breath in the bridge." It's like, that's what singers do.
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Like, it would sound very strange if you didn't breathe and tried to sing. [laughs] You know what I mean? Um, this is how we know it's not AI. It, it... like, these little things where, like, oh, maybe,
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maybe your, uh, guitar player jumped the gun on the entry to the second chorus. Like, well, we can fix it, but I don't know. Uh, or, or you, or you do something that has a really unique sound, like, a beautiful
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unique sound that's compelling and, because they have never heard it before, they make you change it. Um,
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and I will say this, that no one has ever, like, come to you, like, excited about a record and said, "Oh my God, you have to hear this. It's so safe." Like, you will never be surprised.
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Everything has happened before. They, they're just never gonna do that. That's not how we think about music. That's not how we talk about music. And y- Yeah...
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the only way you get there to do something that is a little bit dangerous, uh, and fun and interesting to a listener is to try new things and be willing to maybe leave some flaws in or create some flaws, you know?
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I don't know. I don't really care when I hear a guitar player's strings squeak- Right... because that's what guitar players sound like, you know?
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I don't, I don't mind that I hear the delay getting a little off time or the tremolo from the guitar isn't perfectly in sync with the tempo of the song. Like, that's, to me, that's texture. It's interesting.
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Um, I have a beautiful instrument here. Uh, it's a really old, uh, Japanese pump organ, and it's, like, got one of the most gorgeous sounds,
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but when you play it, you know, it has a bellows and it's got, you know, it's got these two, like, pedals that pump, and it's a mechanical thing where you're actually moving air through it and, you know, it, it makes...
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to be honest, it makes a lot of noise, you know? And I'm always like, "Imagine you're making a Tom Waits record. It's a feature, you know? It's a feature. Just enjoy it," you know?
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Because that's how that instrument sounds. And I'll tell you what happens nearly every time we record it. We get to mix, and the artist gets scared and makes me take it off.
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Because they're like, "But I hear it creaking." It's like, the creaking is the point, you know? So I don't know. The creaking is the... Yeah, the creaking is the point. That's a good, that's a- Yeah... good quote. Yeah.
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I, I'm with you. I, you know, yeah, everybody I talk to is talented. Yeah. You know, there's a spectrum, right? We talked about David Ryan Harris, who's, you know, otherworldly. Mm-hmm.
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And then there's a lot of other very talented people, and I'm, I'm, and I'm shocked at the, I'll just call it, like, general insecurity [laughs] about these folks. 'Cause
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y- I could never get up and play an instrument and sing, you know? Um, and, like, the fact that they do it is a win to me. Mm-hmm. And the fact that they're, like, incredible is another win.
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Um, and it's just, it's shocking how insecure many of them are. Not, maybe not all, but many of them are. And so, like, yeah, I'm with you. It's a, it's a really good perspective. Yeah.
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Um, all right, so a couple more questions. I really appreciate your time, Craig. Sure. So you listen to music all day, every day as part of, uh, the studio that, that, that you run in there in Muscle Shoals.
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When, when it, when you're not on, uh, the clock, if you will, who, who are you listening to?
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Well, I mean, this is one of those things where, um, these days when I, when I'm listening to music, like, I don't go home and put on records. I just don't. 'Cause, like, I really, really...
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uh, what you don't realize, and most people don't realize, is that critical listening, uh, is extremely taxing. Like, by the time I leave the studio at night, I'm exhausted. I'm really exhausted.
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And unless it's, like, a band that I really wanna see, um, you know. I used to go to three or four shows a week. Um, but, you know, now I don't. These days, what I'm listening to...
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Like, I was just working on a project for my friend Erin McCarley, and she was like, "I really like this song by The Marias."
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So I, I kinda got into listening to The Marias for a little bit, because I was trying to absorb what they were doing and go like, "Oh, this is what she likes now."
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And, uh, so a lot of the music that I get exposed to these days is coming through those channels, where it's, it's the artists I'm working with, the producers I'm working with.
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They, they are in- inspired by a sound, so I will go listen. I don't... Uh, I'm not, I'm not in my 20s, 30s, or even 40s anymore, where I would go seek it out. Um- Yeah...
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and, you know, I mean, a lot of, a lot of people I know who are engineers who do what I do, who, you know, have been doing it for a few decades, we're all kinda that way, you know? And I...
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I- it's like I do enjoy new music when I hear it. I really do. But honestly, I, I go home and I'm, I'm just tired, you know?
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And when you, when you sit and you've, like, worked for eight or 10 hours on something, and it's been loud, you just, you're not gonna go home and pull up Spotify and find the latest, greatest thing.
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That, that makes sense. Again, when I was, uh, in Muscle Shoals a couple years ago, the, the takeaway I had was that it, the process is so tedious, you know? Yes. Or it can be tedious.
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You know, you could do one take and like, "Okay, we're good." But, you know, typically it's, it's a lot of back and forth, back and forth, and so I, I appreciate- Yeah... your point on that. Yeah.
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Yeah, and it's, you know, while those takes are going down, I'm, you know, I'm doing a lot of things.
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I'm, I'm learning the arrangement, 'cause a lot of times I'm hearing these songs for the first time as they're going down.
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So I'm, I'm plotting out the arrangement, I'm learning it, um, I'm noticing where maybe the bass player played a wrong note, maybe the guitar player's missed an entrance or, you know, maybe the snare's going out of tune.
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Um, I'm listening for all of that stuff, and we may record the song seven or eight times, and then we might do three, four songs that day, you know? So that's just a lot of listening, and- Yeah...
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it's not just listening to the music, it's also listening to the people in the room and like, what do they need, you know? Um, do they need me to make copies? Do they need me to make coffee? Do they need water?
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Do they need to go get lunch? You know, like where... They don't know where the good lunch spots are. I have to, I have to help them with all that, you know? And, uh, but it's all listening.
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So, you know, it's just, again, people don't realize how exhausting, uh, real listening is. Another great quote. Yeah. That's a good, that's a good perspective. Um, all right, so f- so final question. Uh,
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this podcast that I have, it's called Curious Goldfish. It's from Ted Lasso. I, I just combined a couple of the scenes. I don't know if you watch that show, but it's really a, it...
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Uh, what I'm trying to do is a, it's a tribute to the artist, you know? Like, and, and I, obviously I consider you an artist even though you're not, you're not singing and playing.
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But, um, but it's also a tribute to the, the need for more curiosity in the world. Mm-hmm. And I, I would assume that if you study music theory and if you're an engineer, you're generally curious by nature.
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Uh, so I ask everybody this, but I, I'm excited to hear what, what you have to say. I guess at, at this point in your, in your career and what you're doing today, I guess, what are you most curious about? Well, I've...
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Uh, lately, um, I sorta had a realization that I didn't know much about philosophy,
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and that because I had not, that was just something I'd never educated myself on, and I realized I was missing out on a lot of really, like, good, you know, plots and storylines and jokes and, you know, uh, just insight, especially when it comes to pop culture.
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Mm-hmm. Like, it had all... Like, a lot of stuff just was kinda going over my head, and it was only when I started listening to a podcast about philosophy that I realized, like, "Oh, that's what that's about. Oh, okay."
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And I, I... So now I'm like, "Okay, I have to learn this. Uh, I guess I should've, I should've paid more attention." [laughs] But, but I, I really am enjoying learning about it, you know?
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And I, I'm certainly no expert on it, but I, I am definitely enjoying it because, uh, it's giving me so much more insight into just how people communicate and, and the concepts and ideas and where they came from, you know, behind what they're saying, and especially in art.
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Yeah. How, how has that curiosity manifested itself in, in your, in your job at the studio? Is there an example where the, your, your- Well-... interest in philosophy has actually applied- So-...
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applied to what you're doing? Yeah, I mean, like, I, I think that, uh, a lot of times people, um, people in their music will, will ask a lot of the, like, kind of the bigger questions in life, you know? Um,
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you know, how, the, kinda like how did we get here? You know, uh, is there ultimate purpose and meaning? You know, um, a lot of that stuff, and just knowing what's been written about it. And when I hear them,
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you know, writing and singing about it, I have a better idea.
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I ha- I actually know the history of what, you know, why, and in some cases, you know, I'm even able to say like, "Oh, did you know that that concept came from here?"
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Um, you know, on, uh, on Kacey's last record, there was a song called The Architect that very much was a- about, uh, what I believe they call the teleo- the teleological ar- argument.
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And, um, you know, where she's just looking around at the world and the universe and going like, "It seems so amazing. Can I speak to the architect?" You know? And, uh, and I'm like, "Oh, I know what that's about."
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You know? I get it. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Where, you know, a lot of times- That's great... especially in pop culture, um, I would read things, you know, 'cause I, I read a lot when I was growing up and, you know, um,
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uh, I just thought a lot of times people were being silly or absurd, and I didn't know that there was actually a deeper meaning behind some of the things they were saying. All right. Well, thanks for sharing, Craig.
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That, that's awesome. Um, and again, thank you f- thank you so much for your time. I know y- I know you're busy. It was great catching up, and I'd love to come, uh, and check out the studio sometime. Oh, absolutely.
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You should. Next time you're down here visiting the guys over at, uh, over at Ivy Manor- Yeah... you need to stop by. We're only a few blocks away. No, that's awesome. All right, man.
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Well, have a great rest of your 2026 and, uh, you know, look forward to all the, all the great music that you're putting together. All right. Well, thank you. Thanks, Craig.
