00:00:00Open
00:00:37Welcome
00:03:31Creative Strategy
00:07:42Creativity is a "Suitcase Word"
00:11:41Efficiency
00:14:53Creative Mindset
00:33:19Summary
00:35:04Hit List
00:39:43Outro
ABOUT THIS EPISODE
Creativity is not just an ideas game. More than anything, it’s a matter of process, organization, and the problem-solving abilities of the “backend” office. McKinsey study found that companies that prioritize creativity have 67 percent higher organic revenue growth than those who do not. Yet, creativity, despite its superior business value, is often siloed in “creative” departments like marketing, design or creative. Creativity is a company-wide mandate, and in this episode, Rei and I talk about how that looks like, which brands successfully implement it, and how to organize for creativity.
- The Changing Role of Design By Rei Inamoto
- @toraya.wagashi
- Watch us on YouTube
Follow Ana here:
- Newsletter "The Sociology of Business"
- New book "Hitmakers: How Brands Influence Culture"
Follow Rei here:
- Rei's LinkedIn
- Newsletter "The Intersection"
- Rei's global innovation firm I&CO
English
United States
IN THIS EPISODE
SHOW NOTES 🔗
TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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And then the guy shows up with like a Mastiff, like this, like service dog.
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00:00:09
And I'm like, at which point does Delta say enough?
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You're not getting a bear on that thing.
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That dog was so big and he
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00:00:18
wait, so somebody was trying to get the
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dog, into the
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no, they did get the dog, and I was 5B and they're 5A, hence my story, because they were next to me.
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Anyway, the dog was fine, it was a cute dog.
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So next thing is like a giraffe coming in.
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giraffe coming onto the
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flight, that's crazy,
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Welcome to hit makers.
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How brands influence culture where every other week and I explore a cultural influence and how brands create it.
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I'm Raina model.
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I'm a creative entrepreneur and also a founding partner of an innovation firm called I am called based in New York city.
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And I'm Anna Angelic, and I'm a brand executive and author.
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My new book, Hitmakers, How Brands Influence Culture, is out at, Kazim Magazines in New York.
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Apparently, Ali told me, bring 20 more copies
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Hmm.
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because it's sold out completely and on Amazon every two weeks Ray and I talk about what, who are the brands that make hits and who are those they don't and why, who, what influences.
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the difference between the two.
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And we have our lovely producer, Vanja Arsenov, who is also from Serbia, but from a part where people are much, much nicer.
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All right, maybe we can talk about, we can, we can create an episode about that.
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I would love to get some cultural, education of Serbia.
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So
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if you like our conversations, we covered everything from product led branding to trends and predictions to what makes a great cultural product.
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You can leave us a review.
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And five stars because the views come only as five stars on, Spotify and on Apple Podcast.
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Thank you for listening.
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As well as, as YouTube.
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And YouTube.
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Thank you, Ray.
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All right.
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So, by the way, your book, I have not gotten a copy yet.
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Well, now it's sold out.
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I
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podcast partner I am.
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Yeah.
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No, don't worry.
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I'll give you a copy and I'll sign it.
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How about that?
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So it's special.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, you had your opening or book launch in Paris
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and you have a couple of more events coming up.
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Yes, I have a New York one, TBD, the date, London is, they told me, please stop promoting it.
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We are a hundred people over the limit.
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So I can't say it's, it's hosted by list on January 24th.
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okay.
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So those who are SVP that did others
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Too bad.
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come to New York and then Melbourne and Sydney actually in May.
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Oh, no way.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's global baby.
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Global baby.
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That's right.
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All right.
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Well, maybe I can help you promote it in Japan.
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Oh, that would be lovely.
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I would love that.
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Thank you so much.
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Maybe you are there at the beginning or the end of May.
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So, you
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I could be, I could be.
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Let's talk,
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Yeah.
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stop by while I'm still, while I'm there.
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that's right.
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That's right.
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All right.
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So, we are talking about creative strategy.
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So this is a topic that you and I talked about in the past, not on, you know, on the, the show, but just in general, Hey, you know, this is a topic that we should definitely cover.
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you did write.
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Your analysis, sometime last year, I think, about creative strategy and why, why brands need creative strategy.
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So do you wanna give your quick primer on what you mean by creative strategy and, a little premise behind this topic?
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Yes, and I'll be very short because I want us to get into it.
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So there are two pillars.
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One is that creativity beats efficiency, and that means that the current business models across cultural industries, from agencies to retail, to hospitality,
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to entertainment, are made to more, more, more, to kind of create as, as much cultural output as possible.
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If you go on Netflix, the number of titles.
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that have girl named is like girl with a horse, no, horse girl, tall girl, school girl, girl in a bag, girl, you
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know, unhinged, girl, you know, it's kind of like drive for efficiency leads to unremarkable results.
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So basically what I'm saying is not creativity is nice to have.
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Creativity is a must have, but not in a sense, which is my second pillar, of it being an output.
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It's a process, which means that everyone in an organization needs to be creative.
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And no, that doesn't mean that your financial controller needs to be creative, God forbid, but that there is a creative approach to problem solving.
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And I'll give you an example examples now that they established this framework.
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Creativity beats efficiency because companies that are succeeding today, like I know in luxury fashion Hermes, Prada, they put creative output there.
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Brands that are chasing quick releases and a scale of products and markets duration are not doing so well at this time.
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Brands that redefine Not, oh, what kind of creative campaign I'm going to build, but no, no, no.
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Why am I going to, why is this a problem and how can I creatively approach it?
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Reviving a brand, growing the market, reaching a new audience segment, adding a new channel and so on.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think when that point creativity, I mean, one of the obvious, but important points is that it's not a department or is that it's not a specific job title.
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It shouldn't be technically, but it's more of a mindset or even the culture of the organization that fosters creativity.
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Absolutely, and like, rather than us talking, I'll give you a specific example.
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When I was at Banana in 2021.
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We did a vintage shop.
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And look, it's 25.
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A lot of brands have done a vintage shop since then.
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But that time, a brand that scale, it was just not something that you can pull, pull off.
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But we did it.
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And you know why we did it?
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Because it's not like idea is a great idea.
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Everyone has great ideas.
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Ideas are everywhere.
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But it's actually creativity in problem solving of supply, production, and
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um, um, um.
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Because SVP of, of, of production, Paige, who is now at Worry, and, and Kurt, if I remember correctly, on, on her team, they were able to figure out, how are we
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going to label those vintage products that we scouted to drilling and put it in the warehouses together with everything else?
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And then merchants figured out, how are we going to put it in the system?
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And what SKUs are we going to give?
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And that actually enabled the execution in the real world.
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The visual merchandising team did the real experience.
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The retail experience team did the e commerce
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Yeah.
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team and e commerce design.
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But it was really solving the problem of where does it sit in a warehouse.
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Yeah.
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creativity, the word creativity or the word creative, as an adjective is what I call a suitcase word,
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meaning that,
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Okay, everyone, you need to read Ray's post about The future of creativity.
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The one you wrote six months ago.
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which one,
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I don't know, you said a suitcase word and then I got attacked for it.
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you got attacked
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for it
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was on my sociology business.
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Oh, that's right.
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That's right.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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that one was a bit more specific
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to not just creativity, but design.
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Ah, okay.
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Yeah.
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And then, because you published it for me and then somebody responded
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I know, and I was like, how do you deal
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Yes.
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And then you were like, Oh, you know what?
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The author of this article is not me.
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By
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No, I wanted to give you the respect
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No, no, no, no, no, no.
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I appreciate that.
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By the way, I did end up reaching out to the individual and I actually invited to have a conversation on zoom and I had a chat with them.
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Was it good?
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It was good.
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It was totally fine.
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It's it's funny.
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I mean, I know this is a tangent but that kind of discussion is so much better.
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Like if you have a direct conversation as opposed to just purely writing.
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Oh my god, always.
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Yeah, like you can, you can get out of control.
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But yeah, it ended up being a very good conversation.
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I know, but you know, I'm really glad you say that and I think we should invite more people to have like a call or something because you know what they do now and you can call me and ask for,
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but I'm like, when I don't want to deal on LinkedIn, people offer their opinions and I'm like, I can't really educate you here, you know, and if I educate you, you're going to reply and so on.
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So, okay, see above, not for the part of Serbia where Vanya is from.
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I just believe there.
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I'm like, I can't believe it.
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If you want to email me directly, absolutely.
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But like, I'm not engaging.
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right, right.
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So,
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You're a good man.
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Hey, you're a good man.
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I tried to be patient, I tried to be patient.
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Yeah.
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one thing that I was going to mention,
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because creativity is a pretty broad term There is never a perfect definition, right?
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Having said that, I had a conversation with, somebody named Joel Podny, who used to be the head of Apple University when Steve Jobs was still around.
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Mm hmm.
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Mm
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So he used to be a professor at the Yale School of, Business Management.
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hmm.
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he was a business, professor and he was there for like, you know, 20 years of 17 years, 20 years or so he was a lifelong academic.
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And then more than 15 years ago, when Steve Jobs was still alive, Steve Jobs personally recruited this
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individual, Joel, and ask him to be the Dean of Apple university, which is an in house in house training.
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Curriculum to maintain the quality of Apple as an organization.
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So, yeah.
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So I asked him, like, how do you similar conversation, like, you know, creativity is such a broad word.
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How do you define creativity?
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And the definition that I, that he gave is the one that I.
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It's the simplest and the easiest to understand.
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And the way he describes creativity is, is two things.
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One is original thought and two is skillful, skillful action or skillful execution.
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So having ideas, original ideas, and then the ability to execute it in a skillful, high quality kind of way.
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Right?
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So as long as an organization.
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has the ability to come up with ideas and then execute it.
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You know, it has the potential to become a creative organization.
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And I think a lot of companies.
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Either they, they're not able to do either,
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or they might be able to come up with an idea, but then, you know, is never able to execute.
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Well, then let's go back to pillar number one, which is efficiency.
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Honestly, all those organizations have ideas.
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They have wonderful people, but they're organized for efficiency.
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And now that 2025, that business model is stretched to its limits.
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You can't have 17 fashion shows.
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You can't have, you can fast and furious 35.
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You know what I mean?
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as you are seeing, that scale is no longer the goal.
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People are now like, wait, but there are no any more macro trends.
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Everything is niche trends.
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And when you have that, then you sort of specialize in, In say cosmetic recommendations or outdoor recommendations or products here, products there, but it's not anymore.
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I think that those business models that you've seen that the retail company has to be a two billion dollar company.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And they're all struggling to keep that is telling you that that model is in the world is just too fast
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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It's also works when you had those factories and you're turning and stuff doesn't change for years.
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Ashes don't change what people eat, where they go and what they like.
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You have Britney Spears, Pepsi commercial, which is mass.
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Everyone knows.
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Mm.
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But what would, what do you do when your mass is actually aggregation of those niches?
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You can't just do one size fits all, which is efficiency is about.
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Yeah, yeah,
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Well, I would say it's this organizational setup.
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Organizational setup, but also mindset or culture too.
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No.
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It's incentives, like again, you are like, having been in those giant retail organizations.
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I used to think like that, like long time ago, but now there's they're wonderful people.
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They're just not in incentivized to do things differently.
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Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm
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Because they're measured by old measure and their boss does like, and then even when someone new comes in and is their chief brand officer or their CEO, they're gonna execute resistance.
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Incentivize creative thinking and say, don't worry guys, you don't need to update your website every day with new products, blah, blah, just give me a creative, like,
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you know, and then the business results are going to go down and people are going to come up with amazing things, you know.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But who is incentivized for that?
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And it's going to be like no bonus for you.
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But when you, when you say incent, incentivized, do you mean literally like bonus or financial incentives, or do you mean other types of incentives as well?
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All sorts of incentives.
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That means like if you want to do things in a certain way and you're not at the top of organization So you have to mobilize the entire organization and even when
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you're on top of organization Like I was very lucky that I was on the top of brand marketing creative organizations So it was the frameworks we introduced
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and how we worked with merchandising and retail channels But even then In one of my jobs, retail channels have no idea what we were talking about.
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They're so backwards that it like, oh, don't worry about it.
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Like, like, seriously, just do your thing.
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Not banana.
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Banana were amazing.
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Like, they are so amazing that I, like, unbelievably business savvy and operationally savvy.
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yeah, yeah.
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But you know, in a case like in retail or fashion where there are a lot of operational, transactional or even functional roles that may not be traditionally creative, right?
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And then when you go into those organizations, as, as a senior executive and.
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To instill that kind of mindset into say roles of people in roles that may not be typically creative.
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what is specific other than incentive?
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What is specific activities?
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What are specific processes that you deployed in order to elevate the mindset?
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Well, process is the king, honestly.
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First of all, having one vision, one clear vision where this organization is going, on the level of CEO, CFO,
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Chief Revenue Officer, Chief Growth Officer, Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Product Officer, so on.
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So everyone knows where the company is going.
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And then CFO can actually provide funds to where the company is going and not find itself in the pens down when you're kind of like, Oh, maybe the results are
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not there and results are always not going to be there on a short term because revenue is always like the indicator of brand and it's actually possible to kind
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00:16:13
of reverse engineer cultural influence and see, hey, we did this, this, and this, and that led to X amount of growth.
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yeah,
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know, so in that sense that, first of all, a clear vision, and then second of all, the process, where everyone is included in decision making.
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So that's why I believe that, like, rather than having a strategy, you need to have a creative production department.
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You know, like Hollywood, when people from different, the best people from different specializations bring in.
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Even if they're not external, if they're internal, that producer, merchandising needs to sit with marketing, needs
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to sit with creative, needs to sit with product design and channels, and they need to make decisions together.
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If you're siloed, you're gonna look to be as
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efficient as possible in your silo, a detriment of, you're competing with each
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yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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00:17:02
So on that note, one case study that, that, that I can, that I thought about that I would share was, was ASICS.
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00:17:11
So I, I, we worked with ASICS for just, you know, pure disclaimer and in transparency, but we've worked since I want to say 2018 or so when their business was ASICS.
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Kind of going downhill and 2021 is when they were able to turn it around and then by 2023 2024 their revenue was the highest in its corporate history and what enabled that kind of turnaround
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00:17:41
one was a cross functional way of working and then the other one was and this is sort of up to the theme of this Not just this episode, but the podcast itself, which is having a hit product.
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00:17:57
So, you know, it took them for about a year to two years or so to really course correct the declining sales and declining sort of mindset of the people internally.
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00:18:08
the CEO at the time whom we worked with, Mr.
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00:18:12
Hirota created a special project where it was, it was just, you know, to develop one product, but he brought seven or eight different functions under one umbrella,
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00:18:23
and then created this SWAT team, you know, marketing product, augment legal and all those production and all those, and then over the course of about a year, year
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00:18:33
and a half or so, they develop a product specifically for a category for runners and then that became a hit product.
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So they had a process.
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00:18:42
blueprint and template and a team structure template that then they could, they were able to prove as a proof of concept so that they can
Speaker:
00:18:52
then repeat that to make the overall culture of or overall organization, quote unquote, more creative.
Speaker:
00:19:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:03
But what it came down to was The team structure, the process, and then a hip product.
Speaker:
00:19:10
Those three things, were the ingredient of creative strategy.
Speaker:
00:19:14
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:15
I would argue that like I wouldn't like, yes.
Speaker:
00:19:18
Great.
Speaker:
00:19:19
And that's asic, so one of the legendary brands in the world.
Speaker:
00:19:22
I don't think that every brand needs to have a heat product, but I think the chances of coming up or making a product a heat when it comes to that are higher if the process is in place.
Speaker:
00:19:35
You say, they say, hey, this is really spiking up, let's put more media against it, let's put more, I need more money against it, I need to do a little mini
Speaker:
00:19:43
campaign, let's, you know, like, just having that nimbleness and reactivity, because predicting hits is, is a mood business, as you and I talked several
Speaker:
00:19:52
episodes, but what you can do is kind of like how do you reverse engineer cultural influence to respond very quickly when, when something does catch on.
Speaker:
00:20:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:02
Who do you think are outside of, say fashion?
Speaker:
00:20:05
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:06
Outside of fashion.
Speaker:
00:20:07
Who do you think are creative organizations?
Speaker:
00:20:11
You look
Speaker:
00:20:11
I don't think that GAP is a creative organization now.
Speaker:
00:20:14
I think that it was for a minute when Sandra was there,
Speaker:
00:20:17
Mm
Speaker:
00:20:17
at Banana, and when I was there and we were doing things differently, that was insane sprint of nine months to revive that brand.
Speaker:
00:20:27
But I don't think That that sort of behavior has continued,
Speaker:
00:20:32
mm but what,
Speaker:
00:20:33
I don't want to say that in a negative way.
Speaker:
00:20:35
It's just for the for a company that scale with four brands.
Speaker:
00:20:40
There are different moments in time.
Speaker:
00:20:41
yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:42
But what about like outside of fashion,
Speaker:
00:20:44
Absolutely, I think outside the fashion, I think very creative.
Speaker:
00:20:48
I don't even think that Apple is a creative organization anymore.
Speaker:
00:20:51
I don't think they're a creative organization anymore, you know?
Speaker:
00:20:54
Because if you define creative organization, the one that constantly comes up with new things or at least managed to capture the zeitgeist
Speaker:
00:21:04
and keeps growing and kind of goes through, then I think the list is, is, is very, the list is very short.
Speaker:
00:21:13
Mm-hmm . Mm.
Speaker:
00:21:14
mostly well versed, but you know, you can probably see some watch brands.
Speaker:
00:21:18
You can probably see some automotive brands, probably Tesla, you know, is to an extent because they, they created a completely new market
Speaker:
00:21:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:21:28
and then they kept innovating in terms of design, which is
Speaker:
00:21:32
basically.
Speaker:
00:21:33
one of the very few ways that you can innovate electric vehicles.
Speaker:
00:21:36
So I would say Tesla probably, but then I would also say, and I don't think we give enough credits to TikTok anymore,
Speaker:
00:21:45
and you know how basically they're always on the toes, they're making trends, but they are themselves a trend.
Speaker:
00:21:53
And then I would say those small CPG brands that is like, okay, so this is not a CPG brand.
Speaker:
00:21:59
It's this is perfectly imperfect, which is this peer to peer recommendation platform from, you know, anti algorithm.
Speaker:
00:22:07
I didn't know about them.
Speaker:
00:22:08
The people recommend to each other, so that's kind of innovation of socializing of the recommendation, because if you say, Hey, if everything now is it, they're literally look like a web 1.
Speaker:
00:22:18
0.
Speaker:
00:22:19
But that's the point, you know.
Speaker:
00:22:21
So I would say some of those smaller brands, and then I would always give brands that are actually walking the walk in terms of sustainability.
Speaker:
00:22:29
There is this Danish brand called Soul Land.
Speaker:
00:22:33
Soul Land.
Speaker:
00:22:35
And they have all like innovative materials.
Speaker:
00:22:38
But those are small brands, you see.
Speaker:
00:22:41
I don't see any gigantic creativity side of TikTok.
Speaker:
00:22:45
Right, right, right,
Speaker:
00:22:46
what is happening in terms of apps in China, shopping apps in China platforms.
Speaker:
00:22:52
What, what about you?
Speaker:
00:22:53
What do you think?
Speaker:
00:22:54
I would say.
Speaker:
00:22:55
The first one that comes to my mind and not in any specific order, but, Nintendo.
Speaker:
00:23:01
Okay,
Speaker:
00:23:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:23:03
going to offer disclosure here.
Speaker:
00:23:05
I'm sorry.
Speaker:
00:23:06
Are they your client or
Speaker:
00:23:07
no?
Speaker:
00:23:08
no, no.
Speaker:
00:23:08
They're not, they're not
Speaker:
00:23:09
know.
Speaker:
00:23:10
good point.
Speaker:
00:23:10
No, no, I'm not, I'm not, you know, just
Speaker:
00:23:12
Nintendo, if you're listening.
Speaker:
00:23:13
Mm
Speaker:
00:23:15
but it's one of those companies that.
Speaker:
00:23:17
They're not always successful,
Speaker:
00:23:19
hmm.
Speaker:
00:23:20
but they've been around for a hundred, over a hundred years now.
Speaker:
00:23:23
Oh my God.
Speaker:
00:23:25
And you know, like the way they started as a company, they used to create these deco cars.
Speaker:
00:23:31
Like,
Speaker:
00:23:32
like super analog decks of cards.
Speaker:
00:23:35
That was the business, you know, a hundred years ago.
Speaker:
00:23:39
And then they just kind of kept evolving and evolving, evolving.
Speaker:
00:23:43
and it became a computer console game console company in the eighties.
Speaker:
00:23:50
And every, I would say 10 to 15 years, they have been able to produce a massive hit.
Speaker:
00:24:01
So like in the eighties and nineties, when I was growing up in Japan, they had, Nintendo, you know, these in Japan, it was called family computers, here it was called Nintendo.
Speaker:
00:24:10
And it became like the first major.
Speaker:
00:24:14
Computer game at home.
Speaker:
00:24:16
And then like Wii was one of the first gestural gaming consoles.
Speaker:
00:24:22
no, that's a great point,
Speaker:
00:24:24
And then I would say like around 2017, 18, they introduced the Nintendo Switch.
Speaker:
00:24:31
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:31
And then during COVID, this game called Animal Crossing
Speaker:
00:24:35
became a global,
Speaker:
00:24:36
Crossing, yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:38
global phenomenon.
Speaker:
00:24:39
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:40
you play Animal Crossing?
Speaker:
00:24:42
my daughter did actually.
Speaker:
00:24:43
Yeah, I never got into it, but I guess,
Speaker:
00:24:46
no, but I mean, people who are into it, especially during COVID, I mean, they were
Speaker:
00:24:50
playing, you know,
Speaker:
00:24:51
so sad.
Speaker:
00:24:52
I mean, not your daughter, obviously, but I know who you mean.
Speaker:
00:24:55
Like,
Speaker:
00:24:56
Yeah, yeah, no, but they were, they were, I mean, people were really into it.
Speaker:
00:25:00
You know, and the thing is, I mean, I played it while I watched my daughter play it.
Speaker:
00:25:03
And like, I didn't really find it that because like, you don't really do anything, you know?
Speaker:
00:25:09
But this, right, but that's, I know, I know, but then you have Roblox that is like built upon that, like as a multiplayer and so on.
Speaker:
00:25:16
So, I love that, and you know what that reminded me of?
Speaker:
00:25:18
Lego.
Speaker:
00:25:19
And, especially adult, fans of Lego.
Speaker:
00:25:24
A F O L, that's a special category, and they design and submit to LEGO their own ideas and so on.
Speaker:
00:25:31
And you know why that's relevant, and thank you for bringing up Nintendo?
Speaker:
00:25:34
Because in China, Japan, in Asia, even in Europe, kids.
Speaker:
00:25:40
And so the toy companies are reorienting to like kid adults.
Speaker:
00:25:44
So they're creating merch, they're creating those like toys for actually teenagers and above.
Speaker:
00:25:51
But that's innovation, kind of realizing that, oh wait a second, maybe we are not for five year olds, but maybe we are for 15 or 25 year
Speaker:
00:25:58
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:00
that because of, I don't know, Squid Game or Nintendo or whatnot.
Speaker:
00:26:05
They kind of like are used to, or Roblox at the end of the day, they're used to living in this, this, this, you know, imaginary world.
Speaker:
00:26:12
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:13
So company like Nintendo, I, I find them quite interesting because they've been able to sustain their creativity over so many years.
Speaker:
00:26:23
It's not just in the last 10 or 20 years.
Speaker:
00:26:26
It's for the past hundred years.
Speaker:
00:26:29
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:30
So it's not just about an individual who's so creative that he or she becomes the leader.
Speaker:
00:26:36
And then, you know, like who, like what, what Steve Jobs was to it
Speaker:
00:26:40
to Apple, right?
Speaker:
00:26:41
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:41
And then to your point, to an earlier point that you made that is Apple really creative, you know, it's kind of debatable.
Speaker:
00:26:48
And is it because of the leadership and no offense to, you know, the leadership
Speaker:
00:26:52
at the
Speaker:
00:26:53
I mean, they're like, the most valuable brand in the world, and really also it's kind of God bless, you know, we can talk about it, they're doing
Speaker:
00:26:58
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:58
They've been able to increase
Speaker:
00:27:00
right, it's just like, okay.
Speaker:
00:27:00
Uh, so yeah, I do think
Speaker:
00:27:02
They've been able to increase the value of it, you know?
Speaker:
00:27:06
that that, like that is for example, innovation, I think what Ikea, has done was innovative, and I think to this day is, because they have like multiple sort
Speaker:
00:27:14
of streams, they have like sustainability, they have collaborations, and their sort of content is very responsive.
Speaker:
00:27:21
So I think they're keeping themselves on their toes.
Speaker:
00:27:23
And I think it's important also to distinguish between corporate cultures and wider cultures they exist within.
Speaker:
00:27:30
Scandinavians are more egalitarian, more nimble, more prepared for Unexpected rather than, than Western.
Speaker:
00:27:39
I mean, look at Europe.
Speaker:
00:27:41
They're like, who, what, like, where, where are we?
Speaker:
00:27:44
What century is this?
Speaker:
00:27:45
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:27:46
So that's, one company that when I think of creativity, and company that's able to produce it on a regular basis.
Speaker:
00:27:55
I think of somebody, somebody like, like, Nintendo, on a much, much smaller scale.
Speaker:
00:28:01
I find that restaurant industry quite interesting because if, especially if you're a high end restaurant, you know, you have to be highly creative
Speaker:
00:28:11
and it's also very competitive.
Speaker:
00:28:13
industry.
Speaker:
00:28:14
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:28:15
So like, for instance, like when I started my own company, the model that I looked at was some of those high end restaurants, but specifically this company, this restaurant called El Bulli
Speaker:
00:28:27
in Spain.
Speaker:
00:28:28
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:28:29
And then this guy Ferran Adria, who's a legendary gastronomy chef and the model that he had at his restaurant was that the restaurant itself was open only for six months of the year.
Speaker:
00:28:41
And then the following six months, he would close the restaurant.
Speaker:
00:28:44
He wouldn't serve any customers, but he would develop new techniques and new Cleaner innovations.
Speaker:
00:28:50
And then following six months, he will serve that.
Speaker:
00:28:53
But then during that six months, when the restaurant was closed, he would document it and then he would publish these beautiful monographs of the invention, the, the cleaner inventions that he made.
Speaker:
00:29:07
And then that became an IP itself, a piece of content, you know, this beautiful monograph that he would publish.
Speaker:
00:29:14
So
Speaker:
00:29:14
but they don't exist anymore, do they?
Speaker:
00:29:16
They changed, they stopped running the business.
Speaker:
00:29:19
Cause to be honest, I don't think he was financially that viable.
Speaker:
00:29:23
So they turned it into an educational institution.
Speaker:
00:29:26
Okay, let's stay, let's stay with that.
Speaker:
00:29:31
No, I understand that you, like I understand the model, but for me it's creativity under realistic market conditions.
Speaker:
00:29:38
I think he was, to be fair, I think he was.
Speaker:
00:29:41
I mean, they lasted for what multiple decades.
Speaker:
00:29:44
They did last for a really long time, and people would make pilgrimage and that was, but I think that with
Speaker:
00:29:50
more restaurants having Michelin stars, and even Noma is not around anymore, so it's not just, you know,
Speaker:
00:29:57
but Noma was able to succeed because Danish government supported for three years Rejepi, you know, and so it's this kind of recognition that you can't build it off the ground.
Speaker:
00:30:07
And I do think that it's very worth having.
Speaker:
00:30:10
innovation when you sort of don't operate according to financial laws of the market, but I'm personally and professionally more interested in innovation that actually operates within, you know, because there
Speaker:
00:30:24
is so much innovation, go to MIT, go to, you know, like it's, it's kind of like we are going to space and so whatnot, but then what is the commercial potential?
Speaker:
00:30:32
So I think connecting that
Speaker:
00:30:35
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:35
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:36
commercial aspect is
Speaker:
00:30:37
But speaking of, speaking of connecting that with a commercial, success or at least viability.
Speaker:
00:30:43
Yeah, and sort of stay in that culinary space.
Speaker:
00:30:47
Another company that I'll bring, I'll share the screen just so that, for people who are watching this on, on YouTube, you can see it
Speaker:
00:30:56
Ooh, what's that?
Speaker:
00:30:57
Oh,
Speaker:
00:30:57
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:58
So it's this, it is a Japanese brand called Toraya and what they make is, called Wagashi, which means Japanese pastry.
Speaker:
00:31:07
Hmm.
Speaker:
00:31:07
And it's been around for, uh, since 16th century,
Speaker:
00:31:12
Hmm.
Speaker:
00:31:13
16th century.
Speaker:
00:31:14
And then they produce these beautiful, pastries.
Speaker:
00:31:19
And, and by the way, I also like the simplicity of the Instagram account.
Speaker:
00:31:24
They just show that and that only, you
Speaker:
00:31:27
How many followers do they have?
Speaker:
00:31:29
they have like 130 K.
Speaker:
00:31:31
So it's not a humongous following.
Speaker:
00:31:33
But it's not small so that you have their
Speaker:
00:31:36
small.
Speaker:
00:31:37
aficionados and that's nice.
Speaker:
00:31:39
Yeah, do they ship globally?
Speaker:
00:31:40
It looks beautiful,
Speaker:
00:31:42
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:31:43
But
Speaker:
00:31:43
really nice how clean it is.
Speaker:
00:31:46
yeah, it's been around for, for, you know, 400 years.
Speaker:
00:31:50
That's insane.
Speaker:
00:31:51
And when did they open their Instagram account in 18th century?
Speaker:
00:31:54
Exactly.
Speaker:
00:31:55
18th century.
Speaker:
00:31:56
Exactly.
Speaker:
00:31:57
Yeah, that's a lovely example.
Speaker:
00:31:58
And I think there's so many examples of the, of craftsmanship.
Speaker:
00:32:03
But craftsmanship is one thing and then the other is brand and a company, you know, and you're lucky.
Speaker:
00:32:09
One is lucky if they combine the two, like the story of on running.
Speaker:
00:32:13
I love that story because they're like really running nerds who are like, what if you put the pipe?
Speaker:
00:32:19
And try to, like, build the, like, a soul of that and then they have a lab and, but at the same time, they're not just about product innovation.
Speaker:
00:32:26
They're like about the emotion of running the
Speaker:
00:32:28
feeling of running the spirit, you know, so I think they're really doing the right thing that they filed an IP.
Speaker:
00:32:33
Also, they plan to stay around.
Speaker:
00:32:35
They're doing the right thing in terms of building and product innovation, which is sort of like, and also like Hawker
Speaker:
00:32:41
that innovative materials when you look Nike, which kind of slid back because of the lack of product innovation.
Speaker:
00:32:47
But speaking on just to go back to a little bit, I like what they're doing in terms of the product
Speaker:
00:32:53
innovation, but also, they're like collaborations and marketing activities as of late, you know, so they are.
Speaker:
00:33:00
collaborating with, I think, lower bed and, coming up with a collection that's specific to that, collaboration.
Speaker:
00:33:07
So, yeah, it's not just, you know, creating good products for the sake of good products.
Speaker:
00:33:12
No, it's knowing your audience and then inspiring your audience in a cultural sense, not just in a product sense.
Speaker:
00:33:18
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:33:19
But just to summarize, for the audience, what's one thing that you want our audience to take away about this conversation?
Speaker:
00:33:26
Oh, that creativity is not the output is the approach and the creativity doesn't sit in a traditional creative
Speaker:
00:33:34
departments as a design or marketing or creative and that creativity beats efficiency and it's now becoming.
Speaker:
00:33:42
Increasingly, the dominant mode of how companies organize themselves.
Speaker:
00:33:47
Of course, we're not going to see the shift, but a lot of industries are hitting their, sort of a limit, like media, whatever is happening, media is happening in retail.
Speaker:
00:33:57
And then you kind of look across mass industries and see who stays and who goes.
Speaker:
00:34:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:34:02
Cool.
Speaker:
00:34:03
my summary or my key takeaway is actually going back to the, the beginning of this conversation, which is that I find the definition that I shared at the beginning,
Speaker:
00:34:13
creativity is a combination of original thought and skillful action and any organization that's able to do both.
Speaker:
00:34:21
are the ones that win, and that can be creative.
Speaker:
00:34:24
It's not, you know, to your point, a department or individual or a function, but those two things, being able to come
Speaker:
00:34:32
up with original thought and execute, skill free or the two ingredients, the basic ingredients of creativity.
Speaker:
00:34:39
Right, and I mean, I'm just going to say for those who are not from agencies that coming up with original thought is very high limit.
Speaker:
00:34:46
So I think it's enough to have original way of addressing a problem or addressing an issue like thinking outside the box.
Speaker:
00:34:54
Oh, it hasn't been done before.
Speaker:
00:34:56
So I just want to say, because those people are like, their actions are going to impact the bottom line of the company.
Speaker:
00:35:04
Right.
Speaker:
00:35:05
Alrighty.
Speaker:
00:35:05
So, hit list.
Speaker:
00:35:06
So
Speaker:
00:35:06
I can, I can go.
Speaker:
00:35:07
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:35:08
So, I can't remember if I mentioned this.
Speaker:
00:35:10
I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but my hit list right now is, squid, squid game.
Speaker:
00:35:16
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:17
No one likes Squid Game.
Speaker:
00:35:19
I think, like, again, are you sure?
Speaker:
00:35:21
Oh my god, no one is watching it.
Speaker:
00:35:23
Everyone is like, oh, it's repetition of the last one, and No, we watched it, and we're like, okay, this is copy paste.
Speaker:
00:35:30
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:30
You, did you
Speaker:
00:35:31
a single person Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
Speaker:
00:35:33
Brian and I watched it when it came out, and it was like, hmm.
Speaker:
00:35:36
Like, it's literally copy paste of the same,
Speaker:
00:35:39
It is similar?
Speaker:
00:35:40
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:41
Okay,
Speaker:
00:35:42
And then I talked with some Gen Z, like 30, they were like, no, they didn't even bother, they
Speaker:
00:35:48
maybe maybe I'm biased because like what I, it's true, it's very much similar to the first one, right?
Speaker:
00:35:56
Yeah, but especially when it
Speaker:
00:35:58
And the writing is not as good, the narrative arc is not as believable, so I'm gonna push back on that one.
Speaker:
00:36:04
I mean, everyone needs to have their hit, but I'm just saying,
Speaker:
00:36:07
like,
Speaker:
00:36:07
Okay, so
Speaker:
00:36:08
I'm only into like the second episode, so I haven't watched the whole thing.
Speaker:
00:36:13
So maybe I'll,
Speaker:
00:36:15
I will
Speaker:
00:36:15
No, I already forgot about it.
Speaker:
00:36:17
And I was like traumatized for like weeks after the first, after the first one,
Speaker:
00:36:21
no, the first one,
Speaker:
00:36:22
conversation or a meeting without like talking about
Speaker:
00:36:25
it.
Speaker:
00:36:25
And now it's just not in the zeitgeist
Speaker:
00:36:28
Oh, man.
Speaker:
00:36:29
Oh, man.
Speaker:
00:36:30
Okay.
Speaker:
00:36:31
So
Speaker:
00:36:32
that might, that might ruin, that might ruin the, the viewing of the rest of the episodes for me then.
Speaker:
00:36:38
No, but it's like, like you, you can still enjoy it.
Speaker:
00:36:41
It's not first that you're, I mean, it is a little worse than it is.
Speaker:
00:36:46
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:46
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:46
It's not, you just don't believe it.
Speaker:
00:36:48
You're just kind of like, yeah, why would he do that?
Speaker:
00:36:50
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:36:51
And when we were watching the first time, we're like, what is this?
Speaker:
00:36:54
That was genre creativity.
Speaker:
00:36:56
Unbelievable.
Speaker:
00:36:57
The first, yeah, I agree.
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00:36:58
The first one was on so many levels and what was, what was great about the first, especially the first time they came out was that, that the premise or the idea of a survival game is not new.
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00:37:09
Like it's been around
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00:37:11
and many, many, writers and filmmakers try to create this type of survival game shows and movies.
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00:37:20
Yeah.
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00:37:21
But the way they did it was
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00:37:23
so
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00:37:24
was a critique of capitalism.
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00:37:26
It was such an obvious, brutal critique of capitalism.
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00:37:30
There are poor people who are thought to be trash, and they're replaceable, and they're fighting for amusement of the upper class.
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00:37:37
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:37:38
So, and also it was 2020, like, I think, like, always it's timing.
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00:37:43
2021, after COVID.
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00:37:45
It just hit us, and that was the time Black Lives Matter, early in the summer, and we're like, Yggdrasil was just starting with Triangles, Sadness, Succession, so on.
Speaker:
00:37:54
So you know what I mean?
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00:37:55
It's always about
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00:37:56
do you think they waited too long to create the uh, iteration?
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00:38:00
Even if they didn't, it's not original enough.
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00:38:03
The premise is the same.
Speaker:
00:38:06
But then, then why is it that like so many, Hollywood movies, especially in the past, you know, 10 years is like all sequels.
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00:38:16
because of literally what we just talked about.
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00:38:19
Because they want to like, efficiency is what drives them, not creativity.
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00:38:23
And I learned at Columbia Business School, there is no such thing that works in movie industry like a sequel.
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00:38:29
That's guaranteed money.
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00:38:30
So you have all those franchises and sequels.
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00:38:32
You have Fast and Furious 17.
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00:38:34
You have
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00:38:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:38:36
All of that because no one wants to be creative and take a risk.
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00:38:39
Everyone wants to be just like churn every year, fill out the theaters.
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00:38:43
You're going to know that you have an audience and call it a day.
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00:38:46
That's why.
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00:38:47
And then the audience is probably educated that way as well.
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00:38:50
Like, Hey, you know what?
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00:38:52
There was a first one that was a big hit.
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00:38:53
And so then there must be a next one.
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00:38:55
Well, I mean, probably, but someone didn't read that article on Netflix that they sent you.
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00:39:00
I sent you over the, yeah, yeah,
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00:39:02
no, I didn't.
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00:39:03
I didn't.
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00:39:03
I don't think I did.
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00:39:05
I don't think you did.
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00:39:05
I sent you on WhatsApp.
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00:39:07
I sent you an article on Netflix.
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00:39:09
And the criticism of Netflix recommendation and what it, what he has done for, It's published in N plus one for movie.
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00:39:18
They're like, they're basically a television company.
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00:39:20
Their enemies were two things, blockbuster and cable.
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00:39:24
And now they're like cable with live TV.
Speaker:
00:39:26
And they're like blockbuster in the sense there is ton of crap in a store, but nothing you want to watch.
Speaker:
00:39:33
Okay.
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00:39:33
You know what?
Speaker:
00:39:33
I think, I think I know the link, but I never actually read it.
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00:39:36
It's okay.
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00:39:37
I know.
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00:39:37
That's why I said someone did
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00:39:38
No, I did.
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00:39:39
I did not read it.
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00:39:40
So I'll do my homework.
Speaker:
00:39:42
for next time.
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00:39:43
Okay, so let's say, for those who are still listening, that one and a half person, you can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
Speaker:
00:39:54
If you like what you're hearing, leave a review.
Speaker:
00:39:58
I'm Ana Angelic, and this is
Speaker:
00:40:00
Rain a model and see you in two weeks.
Speaker:
00:40:02
See You In Two Weeks.
Speaker:
00:40:03
Thanks for listening.
00:00:04
And then the guy shows up with like a Mastiff, like this, like service dog.
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00:00:09
And I'm like, at which point does Delta say enough?
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00:00:13
You're not getting a bear on that thing.
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00:00:16
That dog was so big and he
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00:00:18
wait, so somebody was trying to get the
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00:00:20
dog, into the
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00:00:21
no, they did get the dog, and I was 5B and they're 5A, hence my story, because they were next to me.
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00:00:28
Anyway, the dog was fine, it was a cute dog.
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00:00:31
So next thing is like a giraffe coming in.
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00:00:34
giraffe coming onto the
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00:00:35
flight, that's crazy,
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00:00:46
Welcome to hit makers.
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00:00:47
How brands influence culture where every other week and I explore a cultural influence and how brands create it.
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00:00:54
I'm Raina model.
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00:00:55
I'm a creative entrepreneur and also a founding partner of an innovation firm called I am called based in New York city.
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00:01:01
And I'm Anna Angelic, and I'm a brand executive and author.
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00:01:06
My new book, Hitmakers, How Brands Influence Culture, is out at, Kazim Magazines in New York.
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00:01:14
Apparently, Ali told me, bring 20 more copies
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00:01:19
Hmm.
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00:01:19
because it's sold out completely and on Amazon every two weeks Ray and I talk about what, who are the brands that make hits and who are those they don't and why, who, what influences.
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00:01:33
the difference between the two.
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00:01:35
And we have our lovely producer, Vanja Arsenov, who is also from Serbia, but from a part where people are much, much nicer.
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00:01:48
All right, maybe we can talk about, we can, we can create an episode about that.
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00:01:51
I would love to get some cultural, education of Serbia.
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00:01:55
So
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00:01:55
if you like our conversations, we covered everything from product led branding to trends and predictions to what makes a great cultural product.
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00:02:05
You can leave us a review.
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00:02:08
And five stars because the views come only as five stars on, Spotify and on Apple Podcast.
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00:02:15
Thank you for listening.
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00:02:17
As well as, as YouTube.
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00:02:18
And YouTube.
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00:02:19
Thank you, Ray.
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00:02:20
All right.
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00:02:21
So, by the way, your book, I have not gotten a copy yet.
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00:02:26
Well, now it's sold out.
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00:02:28
I
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00:02:29
podcast partner I am.
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00:02:32
Yeah.
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00:02:33
No, don't worry.
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00:02:33
I'll give you a copy and I'll sign it.
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00:02:35
How about that?
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00:02:36
So it's special.
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00:02:37
Yeah.
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00:02:38
So, you know, you had your opening or book launch in Paris
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00:02:42
and you have a couple of more events coming up.
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00:02:45
Yes, I have a New York one, TBD, the date, London is, they told me, please stop promoting it.
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00:02:50
We are a hundred people over the limit.
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00:02:53
So I can't say it's, it's hosted by list on January 24th.
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00:02:58
okay.
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00:02:58
So those who are SVP that did others
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00:03:01
Too bad.
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00:03:02
come to New York and then Melbourne and Sydney actually in May.
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00:03:07
Oh, no way.
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00:03:08
Yeah.
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00:03:09
Yeah.
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00:03:10
It's global baby.
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00:03:11
Global baby.
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00:03:12
That's right.
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00:03:13
All right.
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00:03:13
Well, maybe I can help you promote it in Japan.
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00:03:15
Oh, that would be lovely.
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00:03:17
I would love that.
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00:03:18
Thank you so much.
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00:03:19
Maybe you are there at the beginning or the end of May.
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00:03:22
So, you
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00:03:23
I could be, I could be.
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00:03:25
Let's talk,
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00:03:26
Yeah.
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00:03:27
stop by while I'm still, while I'm there.
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00:03:29
that's right.
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00:03:30
That's right.
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00:03:31
All right.
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00:03:31
So, we are talking about creative strategy.
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00:03:35
So this is a topic that you and I talked about in the past, not on, you know, on the, the show, but just in general, Hey, you know, this is a topic that we should definitely cover.
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00:03:45
you did write.
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00:03:46
Your analysis, sometime last year, I think, about creative strategy and why, why brands need creative strategy.
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00:03:52
So do you wanna give your quick primer on what you mean by creative strategy and, a little premise behind this topic?
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00:04:00
Yes, and I'll be very short because I want us to get into it.
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00:04:03
So there are two pillars.
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00:04:04
One is that creativity beats efficiency, and that means that the current business models across cultural industries, from agencies to retail, to hospitality,
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00:04:16
to entertainment, are made to more, more, more, to kind of create as, as much cultural output as possible.
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00:04:24
If you go on Netflix, the number of titles.
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00:04:28
that have girl named is like girl with a horse, no, horse girl, tall girl, school girl, girl in a bag, girl, you
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00:04:38
know, unhinged, girl, you know, it's kind of like drive for efficiency leads to unremarkable results.
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00:04:46
So basically what I'm saying is not creativity is nice to have.
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00:04:51
Creativity is a must have, but not in a sense, which is my second pillar, of it being an output.
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00:04:59
It's a process, which means that everyone in an organization needs to be creative.
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00:05:04
And no, that doesn't mean that your financial controller needs to be creative, God forbid, but that there is a creative approach to problem solving.
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00:05:14
And I'll give you an example examples now that they established this framework.
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00:05:19
Creativity beats efficiency because companies that are succeeding today, like I know in luxury fashion Hermes, Prada, they put creative output there.
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00:05:30
Brands that are chasing quick releases and a scale of products and markets duration are not doing so well at this time.
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00:05:39
Brands that redefine Not, oh, what kind of creative campaign I'm going to build, but no, no, no.
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00:05:46
Why am I going to, why is this a problem and how can I creatively approach it?
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00:05:51
Reviving a brand, growing the market, reaching a new audience segment, adding a new channel and so on.
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00:05:58
Yeah.
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00:05:58
Yeah.
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00:05:59
Yeah.
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00:05:59
And I think when that point creativity, I mean, one of the obvious, but important points is that it's not a department or is that it's not a specific job title.
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00:06:11
It shouldn't be technically, but it's more of a mindset or even the culture of the organization that fosters creativity.
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00:06:20
Absolutely, and like, rather than us talking, I'll give you a specific example.
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00:06:25
When I was at Banana in 2021.
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00:06:28
We did a vintage shop.
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00:06:31
And look, it's 25.
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00:06:33
A lot of brands have done a vintage shop since then.
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00:06:35
But that time, a brand that scale, it was just not something that you can pull, pull off.
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00:06:42
But we did it.
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00:06:42
And you know why we did it?
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00:06:43
Because it's not like idea is a great idea.
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00:06:46
Everyone has great ideas.
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00:06:47
Ideas are everywhere.
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00:06:49
But it's actually creativity in problem solving of supply, production, and
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00:06:54
um, um, um.
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00:06:56
Because SVP of, of, of production, Paige, who is now at Worry, and, and Kurt, if I remember correctly, on, on her team, they were able to figure out, how are we
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00:07:07
going to label those vintage products that we scouted to drilling and put it in the warehouses together with everything else?
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00:07:15
And then merchants figured out, how are we going to put it in the system?
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00:07:19
And what SKUs are we going to give?
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00:07:23
And that actually enabled the execution in the real world.
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00:07:28
The visual merchandising team did the real experience.
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00:07:31
The retail experience team did the e commerce
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00:07:34
Yeah.
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00:07:35
team and e commerce design.
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00:07:38
But it was really solving the problem of where does it sit in a warehouse.
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00:07:42
Yeah.
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00:07:43
creativity, the word creativity or the word creative, as an adjective is what I call a suitcase word,
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00:07:51
meaning that,
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00:07:52
Okay, everyone, you need to read Ray's post about The future of creativity.
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00:07:59
The one you wrote six months ago.
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00:08:00
which one,
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00:08:01
I don't know, you said a suitcase word and then I got attacked for it.
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00:08:05
you got attacked
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00:08:06
for it
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00:08:06
was on my sociology business.
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00:08:09
Oh, that's right.
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00:08:10
That's right.
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00:08:11
Yes.
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00:08:11
Yes.
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00:08:11
that one was a bit more specific
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00:08:13
to not just creativity, but design.
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00:08:15
Ah, okay.
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00:08:16
Yeah.
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00:08:17
And then, because you published it for me and then somebody responded
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00:08:21
I know, and I was like, how do you deal
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00:08:23
Yes.
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00:08:24
And then you were like, Oh, you know what?
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00:08:25
The author of this article is not me.
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00:08:27
By
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00:08:28
No, I wanted to give you the respect
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00:08:30
No, no, no, no, no, no.
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00:08:30
I appreciate that.
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00:08:31
By the way, I did end up reaching out to the individual and I actually invited to have a conversation on zoom and I had a chat with them.
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00:08:40
Was it good?
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00:08:41
It was good.
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00:08:42
It was totally fine.
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00:08:43
It's it's funny.
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00:08:44
I mean, I know this is a tangent but that kind of discussion is so much better.
Speaker:
00:08:49
Like if you have a direct conversation as opposed to just purely writing.
Speaker:
00:08:54
Oh my god, always.
Speaker:
00:08:55
Yeah, like you can, you can get out of control.
Speaker:
00:08:57
But yeah, it ended up being a very good conversation.
Speaker:
00:08:59
I know, but you know, I'm really glad you say that and I think we should invite more people to have like a call or something because you know what they do now and you can call me and ask for,
Speaker:
00:09:09
but I'm like, when I don't want to deal on LinkedIn, people offer their opinions and I'm like, I can't really educate you here, you know, and if I educate you, you're going to reply and so on.
Speaker:
00:09:19
So, okay, see above, not for the part of Serbia where Vanya is from.
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00:09:24
I just believe there.
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00:09:25
I'm like, I can't believe it.
Speaker:
00:09:27
If you want to email me directly, absolutely.
Speaker:
00:09:29
But like, I'm not engaging.
Speaker:
00:09:31
right, right.
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00:09:31
So,
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00:09:32
You're a good man.
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00:09:33
Hey, you're a good man.
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00:09:35
I tried to be patient, I tried to be patient.
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00:09:37
Yeah.
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00:09:38
one thing that I was going to mention,
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00:09:41
because creativity is a pretty broad term There is never a perfect definition, right?
Speaker:
00:09:49
Having said that, I had a conversation with, somebody named Joel Podny, who used to be the head of Apple University when Steve Jobs was still around.
Speaker:
00:10:03
Mm hmm.
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00:10:03
Mm
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00:10:03
So he used to be a professor at the Yale School of, Business Management.
Speaker:
00:10:09
hmm.
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00:10:10
he was a business, professor and he was there for like, you know, 20 years of 17 years, 20 years or so he was a lifelong academic.
Speaker:
00:10:19
And then more than 15 years ago, when Steve Jobs was still alive, Steve Jobs personally recruited this
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00:10:25
individual, Joel, and ask him to be the Dean of Apple university, which is an in house in house training.
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00:10:33
Curriculum to maintain the quality of Apple as an organization.
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00:10:39
So, yeah.
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00:10:40
So I asked him, like, how do you similar conversation, like, you know, creativity is such a broad word.
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00:10:44
How do you define creativity?
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00:10:47
And the definition that I, that he gave is the one that I.
Speaker:
00:10:52
It's the simplest and the easiest to understand.
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00:10:54
And the way he describes creativity is, is two things.
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00:10:58
One is original thought and two is skillful, skillful action or skillful execution.
Speaker:
00:11:07
So having ideas, original ideas, and then the ability to execute it in a skillful, high quality kind of way.
Speaker:
00:11:17
Right?
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00:11:17
So as long as an organization.
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00:11:21
has the ability to come up with ideas and then execute it.
Speaker:
00:11:25
You know, it has the potential to become a creative organization.
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00:11:29
And I think a lot of companies.
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00:11:32
Either they, they're not able to do either,
Speaker:
00:11:35
or they might be able to come up with an idea, but then, you know, is never able to execute.
Speaker:
00:11:41
Well, then let's go back to pillar number one, which is efficiency.
Speaker:
00:11:45
Honestly, all those organizations have ideas.
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00:11:47
They have wonderful people, but they're organized for efficiency.
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00:11:51
And now that 2025, that business model is stretched to its limits.
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00:11:56
You can't have 17 fashion shows.
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00:11:58
You can't have, you can fast and furious 35.
Speaker:
00:12:02
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:12:04
as you are seeing, that scale is no longer the goal.
Speaker:
00:12:08
People are now like, wait, but there are no any more macro trends.
Speaker:
00:12:11
Everything is niche trends.
Speaker:
00:12:13
And when you have that, then you sort of specialize in, In say cosmetic recommendations or outdoor recommendations or products here, products there, but it's not anymore.
Speaker:
00:12:27
I think that those business models that you've seen that the retail company has to be a two billion dollar company.
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00:12:33
Yeah.
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00:12:33
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:12:34
And they're all struggling to keep that is telling you that that model is in the world is just too fast
Speaker:
00:12:42
Hmm.
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00:12:42
Hmm.
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00:12:42
Hmm.
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00:12:43
Hmm.
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00:12:43
Hmm.
Speaker:
00:12:43
It's also works when you had those factories and you're turning and stuff doesn't change for years.
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00:12:49
Ashes don't change what people eat, where they go and what they like.
Speaker:
00:12:53
You have Britney Spears, Pepsi commercial, which is mass.
Speaker:
00:12:56
Everyone knows.
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00:12:57
Mm.
Speaker:
00:12:58
But what would, what do you do when your mass is actually aggregation of those niches?
Speaker:
00:13:03
You can't just do one size fits all, which is efficiency is about.
Speaker:
00:13:07
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker:
00:13:08
Well, I would say it's this organizational setup.
Speaker:
00:13:12
Organizational setup, but also mindset or culture too.
Speaker:
00:13:14
No.
Speaker:
00:13:15
It's incentives, like again, you are like, having been in those giant retail organizations.
Speaker:
00:13:22
I used to think like that, like long time ago, but now there's they're wonderful people.
Speaker:
00:13:26
They're just not in incentivized to do things differently.
Speaker:
00:13:31
Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm
Speaker:
00:13:32
Because they're measured by old measure and their boss does like, and then even when someone new comes in and is their chief brand officer or their CEO, they're gonna execute resistance.
Speaker:
00:13:43
Incentivize creative thinking and say, don't worry guys, you don't need to update your website every day with new products, blah, blah, just give me a creative, like,
Speaker:
00:13:51
you know, and then the business results are going to go down and people are going to come up with amazing things, you know.
Speaker:
00:13:57
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:13:58
But who is incentivized for that?
Speaker:
00:14:00
And it's going to be like no bonus for you.
Speaker:
00:14:02
But when you, when you say incent, incentivized, do you mean literally like bonus or financial incentives, or do you mean other types of incentives as well?
Speaker:
00:14:10
All sorts of incentives.
Speaker:
00:14:12
That means like if you want to do things in a certain way and you're not at the top of organization So you have to mobilize the entire organization and even when
Speaker:
00:14:20
you're on top of organization Like I was very lucky that I was on the top of brand marketing creative organizations So it was the frameworks we introduced
Speaker:
00:14:28
and how we worked with merchandising and retail channels But even then In one of my jobs, retail channels have no idea what we were talking about.
Speaker:
00:14:37
They're so backwards that it like, oh, don't worry about it.
Speaker:
00:14:40
Like, like, seriously, just do your thing.
Speaker:
00:14:43
Not banana.
Speaker:
00:14:44
Banana were amazing.
Speaker:
00:14:45
Like, they are so amazing that I, like, unbelievably business savvy and operationally savvy.
Speaker:
00:14:53
yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:14:53
But you know, in a case like in retail or fashion where there are a lot of operational, transactional or even functional roles that may not be traditionally creative, right?
Speaker:
00:15:06
And then when you go into those organizations, as, as a senior executive and.
Speaker:
00:15:14
To instill that kind of mindset into say roles of people in roles that may not be typically creative.
Speaker:
00:15:23
what is specific other than incentive?
Speaker:
00:15:26
What is specific activities?
Speaker:
00:15:28
What are specific processes that you deployed in order to elevate the mindset?
Speaker:
00:15:34
Well, process is the king, honestly.
Speaker:
00:15:36
First of all, having one vision, one clear vision where this organization is going, on the level of CEO, CFO,
Speaker:
00:15:46
Chief Revenue Officer, Chief Growth Officer, Chief Marketing Officer, Chief Product Officer, so on.
Speaker:
00:15:50
So everyone knows where the company is going.
Speaker:
00:15:53
And then CFO can actually provide funds to where the company is going and not find itself in the pens down when you're kind of like, Oh, maybe the results are
Speaker:
00:16:03
not there and results are always not going to be there on a short term because revenue is always like the indicator of brand and it's actually possible to kind
Speaker:
00:16:13
of reverse engineer cultural influence and see, hey, we did this, this, and this, and that led to X amount of growth.
Speaker:
00:16:20
yeah,
Speaker:
00:16:21
know, so in that sense that, first of all, a clear vision, and then second of all, the process, where everyone is included in decision making.
Speaker:
00:16:30
So that's why I believe that, like, rather than having a strategy, you need to have a creative production department.
Speaker:
00:16:37
You know, like Hollywood, when people from different, the best people from different specializations bring in.
Speaker:
00:16:42
Even if they're not external, if they're internal, that producer, merchandising needs to sit with marketing, needs
Speaker:
00:16:49
to sit with creative, needs to sit with product design and channels, and they need to make decisions together.
Speaker:
00:16:54
If you're siloed, you're gonna look to be as
Speaker:
00:16:56
efficient as possible in your silo, a detriment of, you're competing with each
Speaker:
00:17:00
yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:00
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:17:02
So on that note, one case study that, that, that I can, that I thought about that I would share was, was ASICS.
Speaker:
00:17:11
So I, I, we worked with ASICS for just, you know, pure disclaimer and in transparency, but we've worked since I want to say 2018 or so when their business was ASICS.
Speaker:
00:17:22
Kind of going downhill and 2021 is when they were able to turn it around and then by 2023 2024 their revenue was the highest in its corporate history and what enabled that kind of turnaround
Speaker:
00:17:41
one was a cross functional way of working and then the other one was and this is sort of up to the theme of this Not just this episode, but the podcast itself, which is having a hit product.
Speaker:
00:17:57
So, you know, it took them for about a year to two years or so to really course correct the declining sales and declining sort of mindset of the people internally.
Speaker:
00:18:08
the CEO at the time whom we worked with, Mr.
Speaker:
00:18:12
Hirota created a special project where it was, it was just, you know, to develop one product, but he brought seven or eight different functions under one umbrella,
Speaker:
00:18:23
and then created this SWAT team, you know, marketing product, augment legal and all those production and all those, and then over the course of about a year, year
Speaker:
00:18:33
and a half or so, they develop a product specifically for a category for runners and then that became a hit product.
Speaker:
00:18:40
So they had a process.
Speaker:
00:18:42
blueprint and template and a team structure template that then they could, they were able to prove as a proof of concept so that they can
Speaker:
00:18:52
then repeat that to make the overall culture of or overall organization, quote unquote, more creative.
Speaker:
00:19:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:03
But what it came down to was The team structure, the process, and then a hip product.
Speaker:
00:19:10
Those three things, were the ingredient of creative strategy.
Speaker:
00:19:14
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:19:15
I would argue that like I wouldn't like, yes.
Speaker:
00:19:18
Great.
Speaker:
00:19:19
And that's asic, so one of the legendary brands in the world.
Speaker:
00:19:22
I don't think that every brand needs to have a heat product, but I think the chances of coming up or making a product a heat when it comes to that are higher if the process is in place.
Speaker:
00:19:35
You say, they say, hey, this is really spiking up, let's put more media against it, let's put more, I need more money against it, I need to do a little mini
Speaker:
00:19:43
campaign, let's, you know, like, just having that nimbleness and reactivity, because predicting hits is, is a mood business, as you and I talked several
Speaker:
00:19:52
episodes, but what you can do is kind of like how do you reverse engineer cultural influence to respond very quickly when, when something does catch on.
Speaker:
00:20:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:01
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:02
Who do you think are outside of, say fashion?
Speaker:
00:20:05
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:06
Outside of fashion.
Speaker:
00:20:07
Who do you think are creative organizations?
Speaker:
00:20:11
You look
Speaker:
00:20:11
I don't think that GAP is a creative organization now.
Speaker:
00:20:14
I think that it was for a minute when Sandra was there,
Speaker:
00:20:17
Mm
Speaker:
00:20:17
at Banana, and when I was there and we were doing things differently, that was insane sprint of nine months to revive that brand.
Speaker:
00:20:27
But I don't think That that sort of behavior has continued,
Speaker:
00:20:32
mm but what,
Speaker:
00:20:33
I don't want to say that in a negative way.
Speaker:
00:20:35
It's just for the for a company that scale with four brands.
Speaker:
00:20:40
There are different moments in time.
Speaker:
00:20:41
yeah.
Speaker:
00:20:42
But what about like outside of fashion,
Speaker:
00:20:44
Absolutely, I think outside the fashion, I think very creative.
Speaker:
00:20:48
I don't even think that Apple is a creative organization anymore.
Speaker:
00:20:51
I don't think they're a creative organization anymore, you know?
Speaker:
00:20:54
Because if you define creative organization, the one that constantly comes up with new things or at least managed to capture the zeitgeist
Speaker:
00:21:04
and keeps growing and kind of goes through, then I think the list is, is, is very, the list is very short.
Speaker:
00:21:13
Mm-hmm . Mm.
Speaker:
00:21:14
mostly well versed, but you know, you can probably see some watch brands.
Speaker:
00:21:18
You can probably see some automotive brands, probably Tesla, you know, is to an extent because they, they created a completely new market
Speaker:
00:21:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:21:28
and then they kept innovating in terms of design, which is
Speaker:
00:21:32
basically.
Speaker:
00:21:33
one of the very few ways that you can innovate electric vehicles.
Speaker:
00:21:36
So I would say Tesla probably, but then I would also say, and I don't think we give enough credits to TikTok anymore,
Speaker:
00:21:45
and you know how basically they're always on the toes, they're making trends, but they are themselves a trend.
Speaker:
00:21:53
And then I would say those small CPG brands that is like, okay, so this is not a CPG brand.
Speaker:
00:21:59
It's this is perfectly imperfect, which is this peer to peer recommendation platform from, you know, anti algorithm.
Speaker:
00:22:07
I didn't know about them.
Speaker:
00:22:08
The people recommend to each other, so that's kind of innovation of socializing of the recommendation, because if you say, Hey, if everything now is it, they're literally look like a web 1.
Speaker:
00:22:18
0.
Speaker:
00:22:19
But that's the point, you know.
Speaker:
00:22:21
So I would say some of those smaller brands, and then I would always give brands that are actually walking the walk in terms of sustainability.
Speaker:
00:22:29
There is this Danish brand called Soul Land.
Speaker:
00:22:33
Soul Land.
Speaker:
00:22:35
And they have all like innovative materials.
Speaker:
00:22:38
But those are small brands, you see.
Speaker:
00:22:41
I don't see any gigantic creativity side of TikTok.
Speaker:
00:22:45
Right, right, right,
Speaker:
00:22:46
what is happening in terms of apps in China, shopping apps in China platforms.
Speaker:
00:22:52
What, what about you?
Speaker:
00:22:53
What do you think?
Speaker:
00:22:54
I would say.
Speaker:
00:22:55
The first one that comes to my mind and not in any specific order, but, Nintendo.
Speaker:
00:23:01
Okay,
Speaker:
00:23:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:23:03
going to offer disclosure here.
Speaker:
00:23:05
I'm sorry.
Speaker:
00:23:06
Are they your client or
Speaker:
00:23:07
no?
Speaker:
00:23:08
no, no.
Speaker:
00:23:08
They're not, they're not
Speaker:
00:23:09
know.
Speaker:
00:23:10
good point.
Speaker:
00:23:10
No, no, I'm not, I'm not, you know, just
Speaker:
00:23:12
Nintendo, if you're listening.
Speaker:
00:23:13
Mm
Speaker:
00:23:15
but it's one of those companies that.
Speaker:
00:23:17
They're not always successful,
Speaker:
00:23:19
hmm.
Speaker:
00:23:20
but they've been around for a hundred, over a hundred years now.
Speaker:
00:23:23
Oh my God.
Speaker:
00:23:25
And you know, like the way they started as a company, they used to create these deco cars.
Speaker:
00:23:31
Like,
Speaker:
00:23:32
like super analog decks of cards.
Speaker:
00:23:35
That was the business, you know, a hundred years ago.
Speaker:
00:23:39
And then they just kind of kept evolving and evolving, evolving.
Speaker:
00:23:43
and it became a computer console game console company in the eighties.
Speaker:
00:23:50
And every, I would say 10 to 15 years, they have been able to produce a massive hit.
Speaker:
00:24:01
So like in the eighties and nineties, when I was growing up in Japan, they had, Nintendo, you know, these in Japan, it was called family computers, here it was called Nintendo.
Speaker:
00:24:10
And it became like the first major.
Speaker:
00:24:14
Computer game at home.
Speaker:
00:24:16
And then like Wii was one of the first gestural gaming consoles.
Speaker:
00:24:22
no, that's a great point,
Speaker:
00:24:24
And then I would say like around 2017, 18, they introduced the Nintendo Switch.
Speaker:
00:24:31
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:31
And then during COVID, this game called Animal Crossing
Speaker:
00:24:35
became a global,
Speaker:
00:24:36
Crossing, yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:38
global phenomenon.
Speaker:
00:24:39
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:24:40
you play Animal Crossing?
Speaker:
00:24:42
my daughter did actually.
Speaker:
00:24:43
Yeah, I never got into it, but I guess,
Speaker:
00:24:46
no, but I mean, people who are into it, especially during COVID, I mean, they were
Speaker:
00:24:50
playing, you know,
Speaker:
00:24:51
so sad.
Speaker:
00:24:52
I mean, not your daughter, obviously, but I know who you mean.
Speaker:
00:24:55
Like,
Speaker:
00:24:56
Yeah, yeah, no, but they were, they were, I mean, people were really into it.
Speaker:
00:25:00
You know, and the thing is, I mean, I played it while I watched my daughter play it.
Speaker:
00:25:03
And like, I didn't really find it that because like, you don't really do anything, you know?
Speaker:
00:25:09
But this, right, but that's, I know, I know, but then you have Roblox that is like built upon that, like as a multiplayer and so on.
Speaker:
00:25:16
So, I love that, and you know what that reminded me of?
Speaker:
00:25:18
Lego.
Speaker:
00:25:19
And, especially adult, fans of Lego.
Speaker:
00:25:24
A F O L, that's a special category, and they design and submit to LEGO their own ideas and so on.
Speaker:
00:25:31
And you know why that's relevant, and thank you for bringing up Nintendo?
Speaker:
00:25:34
Because in China, Japan, in Asia, even in Europe, kids.
Speaker:
00:25:40
And so the toy companies are reorienting to like kid adults.
Speaker:
00:25:44
So they're creating merch, they're creating those like toys for actually teenagers and above.
Speaker:
00:25:51
But that's innovation, kind of realizing that, oh wait a second, maybe we are not for five year olds, but maybe we are for 15 or 25 year
Speaker:
00:25:58
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:00
that because of, I don't know, Squid Game or Nintendo or whatnot.
Speaker:
00:26:05
They kind of like are used to, or Roblox at the end of the day, they're used to living in this, this, this, you know, imaginary world.
Speaker:
00:26:12
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:13
So company like Nintendo, I, I find them quite interesting because they've been able to sustain their creativity over so many years.
Speaker:
00:26:23
It's not just in the last 10 or 20 years.
Speaker:
00:26:26
It's for the past hundred years.
Speaker:
00:26:29
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:30
So it's not just about an individual who's so creative that he or she becomes the leader.
Speaker:
00:26:36
And then, you know, like who, like what, what Steve Jobs was to it
Speaker:
00:26:40
to Apple, right?
Speaker:
00:26:41
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:41
And then to your point, to an earlier point that you made that is Apple really creative, you know, it's kind of debatable.
Speaker:
00:26:48
And is it because of the leadership and no offense to, you know, the leadership
Speaker:
00:26:52
at the
Speaker:
00:26:53
I mean, they're like, the most valuable brand in the world, and really also it's kind of God bless, you know, we can talk about it, they're doing
Speaker:
00:26:58
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:26:58
They've been able to increase
Speaker:
00:27:00
right, it's just like, okay.
Speaker:
00:27:00
Uh, so yeah, I do think
Speaker:
00:27:02
They've been able to increase the value of it, you know?
Speaker:
00:27:06
that that, like that is for example, innovation, I think what Ikea, has done was innovative, and I think to this day is, because they have like multiple sort
Speaker:
00:27:14
of streams, they have like sustainability, they have collaborations, and their sort of content is very responsive.
Speaker:
00:27:21
So I think they're keeping themselves on their toes.
Speaker:
00:27:23
And I think it's important also to distinguish between corporate cultures and wider cultures they exist within.
Speaker:
00:27:30
Scandinavians are more egalitarian, more nimble, more prepared for Unexpected rather than, than Western.
Speaker:
00:27:39
I mean, look at Europe.
Speaker:
00:27:41
They're like, who, what, like, where, where are we?
Speaker:
00:27:44
What century is this?
Speaker:
00:27:45
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:27:46
So that's, one company that when I think of creativity, and company that's able to produce it on a regular basis.
Speaker:
00:27:55
I think of somebody, somebody like, like, Nintendo, on a much, much smaller scale.
Speaker:
00:28:01
I find that restaurant industry quite interesting because if, especially if you're a high end restaurant, you know, you have to be highly creative
Speaker:
00:28:11
and it's also very competitive.
Speaker:
00:28:13
industry.
Speaker:
00:28:14
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:28:15
So like, for instance, like when I started my own company, the model that I looked at was some of those high end restaurants, but specifically this company, this restaurant called El Bulli
Speaker:
00:28:27
in Spain.
Speaker:
00:28:28
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:28:29
And then this guy Ferran Adria, who's a legendary gastronomy chef and the model that he had at his restaurant was that the restaurant itself was open only for six months of the year.
Speaker:
00:28:41
And then the following six months, he would close the restaurant.
Speaker:
00:28:44
He wouldn't serve any customers, but he would develop new techniques and new Cleaner innovations.
Speaker:
00:28:50
And then following six months, he will serve that.
Speaker:
00:28:53
But then during that six months, when the restaurant was closed, he would document it and then he would publish these beautiful monographs of the invention, the, the cleaner inventions that he made.
Speaker:
00:29:07
And then that became an IP itself, a piece of content, you know, this beautiful monograph that he would publish.
Speaker:
00:29:14
So
Speaker:
00:29:14
but they don't exist anymore, do they?
Speaker:
00:29:16
They changed, they stopped running the business.
Speaker:
00:29:19
Cause to be honest, I don't think he was financially that viable.
Speaker:
00:29:23
So they turned it into an educational institution.
Speaker:
00:29:26
Okay, let's stay, let's stay with that.
Speaker:
00:29:31
No, I understand that you, like I understand the model, but for me it's creativity under realistic market conditions.
Speaker:
00:29:38
I think he was, to be fair, I think he was.
Speaker:
00:29:41
I mean, they lasted for what multiple decades.
Speaker:
00:29:44
They did last for a really long time, and people would make pilgrimage and that was, but I think that with
Speaker:
00:29:50
more restaurants having Michelin stars, and even Noma is not around anymore, so it's not just, you know,
Speaker:
00:29:57
but Noma was able to succeed because Danish government supported for three years Rejepi, you know, and so it's this kind of recognition that you can't build it off the ground.
Speaker:
00:30:07
And I do think that it's very worth having.
Speaker:
00:30:10
innovation when you sort of don't operate according to financial laws of the market, but I'm personally and professionally more interested in innovation that actually operates within, you know, because there
Speaker:
00:30:24
is so much innovation, go to MIT, go to, you know, like it's, it's kind of like we are going to space and so whatnot, but then what is the commercial potential?
Speaker:
00:30:32
So I think connecting that
Speaker:
00:30:35
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:35
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:36
commercial aspect is
Speaker:
00:30:37
But speaking of, speaking of connecting that with a commercial, success or at least viability.
Speaker:
00:30:43
Yeah, and sort of stay in that culinary space.
Speaker:
00:30:47
Another company that I'll bring, I'll share the screen just so that, for people who are watching this on, on YouTube, you can see it
Speaker:
00:30:56
Ooh, what's that?
Speaker:
00:30:57
Oh,
Speaker:
00:30:57
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:30:58
So it's this, it is a Japanese brand called Toraya and what they make is, called Wagashi, which means Japanese pastry.
Speaker:
00:31:07
Hmm.
Speaker:
00:31:07
And it's been around for, uh, since 16th century,
Speaker:
00:31:12
Hmm.
Speaker:
00:31:13
16th century.
Speaker:
00:31:14
And then they produce these beautiful, pastries.
Speaker:
00:31:19
And, and by the way, I also like the simplicity of the Instagram account.
Speaker:
00:31:24
They just show that and that only, you
Speaker:
00:31:27
How many followers do they have?
Speaker:
00:31:29
they have like 130 K.
Speaker:
00:31:31
So it's not a humongous following.
Speaker:
00:31:33
But it's not small so that you have their
Speaker:
00:31:36
small.
Speaker:
00:31:37
aficionados and that's nice.
Speaker:
00:31:39
Yeah, do they ship globally?
Speaker:
00:31:40
It looks beautiful,
Speaker:
00:31:42
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:31:43
But
Speaker:
00:31:43
really nice how clean it is.
Speaker:
00:31:46
yeah, it's been around for, for, you know, 400 years.
Speaker:
00:31:50
That's insane.
Speaker:
00:31:51
And when did they open their Instagram account in 18th century?
Speaker:
00:31:54
Exactly.
Speaker:
00:31:55
18th century.
Speaker:
00:31:56
Exactly.
Speaker:
00:31:57
Yeah, that's a lovely example.
Speaker:
00:31:58
And I think there's so many examples of the, of craftsmanship.
Speaker:
00:32:03
But craftsmanship is one thing and then the other is brand and a company, you know, and you're lucky.
Speaker:
00:32:09
One is lucky if they combine the two, like the story of on running.
Speaker:
00:32:13
I love that story because they're like really running nerds who are like, what if you put the pipe?
Speaker:
00:32:19
And try to, like, build the, like, a soul of that and then they have a lab and, but at the same time, they're not just about product innovation.
Speaker:
00:32:26
They're like about the emotion of running the
Speaker:
00:32:28
feeling of running the spirit, you know, so I think they're really doing the right thing that they filed an IP.
Speaker:
00:32:33
Also, they plan to stay around.
Speaker:
00:32:35
They're doing the right thing in terms of building and product innovation, which is sort of like, and also like Hawker
Speaker:
00:32:41
that innovative materials when you look Nike, which kind of slid back because of the lack of product innovation.
Speaker:
00:32:47
But speaking on just to go back to a little bit, I like what they're doing in terms of the product
Speaker:
00:32:53
innovation, but also, they're like collaborations and marketing activities as of late, you know, so they are.
Speaker:
00:33:00
collaborating with, I think, lower bed and, coming up with a collection that's specific to that, collaboration.
Speaker:
00:33:07
So, yeah, it's not just, you know, creating good products for the sake of good products.
Speaker:
00:33:12
No, it's knowing your audience and then inspiring your audience in a cultural sense, not just in a product sense.
Speaker:
00:33:18
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:33:19
But just to summarize, for the audience, what's one thing that you want our audience to take away about this conversation?
Speaker:
00:33:26
Oh, that creativity is not the output is the approach and the creativity doesn't sit in a traditional creative
Speaker:
00:33:34
departments as a design or marketing or creative and that creativity beats efficiency and it's now becoming.
Speaker:
00:33:42
Increasingly, the dominant mode of how companies organize themselves.
Speaker:
00:33:47
Of course, we're not going to see the shift, but a lot of industries are hitting their, sort of a limit, like media, whatever is happening, media is happening in retail.
Speaker:
00:33:57
And then you kind of look across mass industries and see who stays and who goes.
Speaker:
00:34:02
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:34:02
Cool.
Speaker:
00:34:03
my summary or my key takeaway is actually going back to the, the beginning of this conversation, which is that I find the definition that I shared at the beginning,
Speaker:
00:34:13
creativity is a combination of original thought and skillful action and any organization that's able to do both.
Speaker:
00:34:21
are the ones that win, and that can be creative.
Speaker:
00:34:24
It's not, you know, to your point, a department or individual or a function, but those two things, being able to come
Speaker:
00:34:32
up with original thought and execute, skill free or the two ingredients, the basic ingredients of creativity.
Speaker:
00:34:39
Right, and I mean, I'm just going to say for those who are not from agencies that coming up with original thought is very high limit.
Speaker:
00:34:46
So I think it's enough to have original way of addressing a problem or addressing an issue like thinking outside the box.
Speaker:
00:34:54
Oh, it hasn't been done before.
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00:34:56
So I just want to say, because those people are like, their actions are going to impact the bottom line of the company.
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00:35:04
Right.
Speaker:
00:35:05
Alrighty.
Speaker:
00:35:05
So, hit list.
Speaker:
00:35:06
So
Speaker:
00:35:06
I can, I can go.
Speaker:
00:35:07
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:35:08
So, I can't remember if I mentioned this.
Speaker:
00:35:10
I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but my hit list right now is, squid, squid game.
Speaker:
00:35:16
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:17
No one likes Squid Game.
Speaker:
00:35:19
I think, like, again, are you sure?
Speaker:
00:35:21
Oh my god, no one is watching it.
Speaker:
00:35:23
Everyone is like, oh, it's repetition of the last one, and No, we watched it, and we're like, okay, this is copy paste.
Speaker:
00:35:30
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:30
You, did you
Speaker:
00:35:31
a single person Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.
Speaker:
00:35:33
Brian and I watched it when it came out, and it was like, hmm.
Speaker:
00:35:36
Like, it's literally copy paste of the same,
Speaker:
00:35:39
It is similar?
Speaker:
00:35:40
Really?
Speaker:
00:35:41
Okay,
Speaker:
00:35:42
And then I talked with some Gen Z, like 30, they were like, no, they didn't even bother, they
Speaker:
00:35:48
maybe maybe I'm biased because like what I, it's true, it's very much similar to the first one, right?
Speaker:
00:35:56
Yeah, but especially when it
Speaker:
00:35:58
And the writing is not as good, the narrative arc is not as believable, so I'm gonna push back on that one.
Speaker:
00:36:04
I mean, everyone needs to have their hit, but I'm just saying,
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00:36:07
like,
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00:36:07
Okay, so
Speaker:
00:36:08
I'm only into like the second episode, so I haven't watched the whole thing.
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00:36:13
So maybe I'll,
Speaker:
00:36:15
I will
Speaker:
00:36:15
No, I already forgot about it.
Speaker:
00:36:17
And I was like traumatized for like weeks after the first, after the first one,
Speaker:
00:36:21
no, the first one,
Speaker:
00:36:22
conversation or a meeting without like talking about
Speaker:
00:36:25
it.
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00:36:25
And now it's just not in the zeitgeist
Speaker:
00:36:28
Oh, man.
Speaker:
00:36:29
Oh, man.
Speaker:
00:36:30
Okay.
Speaker:
00:36:31
So
Speaker:
00:36:32
that might, that might ruin, that might ruin the, the viewing of the rest of the episodes for me then.
Speaker:
00:36:38
No, but it's like, like you, you can still enjoy it.
Speaker:
00:36:41
It's not first that you're, I mean, it is a little worse than it is.
Speaker:
00:36:46
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:46
Yeah.
Speaker:
00:36:46
It's not, you just don't believe it.
Speaker:
00:36:48
You're just kind of like, yeah, why would he do that?
Speaker:
00:36:50
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:36:51
And when we were watching the first time, we're like, what is this?
Speaker:
00:36:54
That was genre creativity.
Speaker:
00:36:56
Unbelievable.
Speaker:
00:36:57
The first, yeah, I agree.
Speaker:
00:36:58
The first one was on so many levels and what was, what was great about the first, especially the first time they came out was that, that the premise or the idea of a survival game is not new.
Speaker:
00:37:09
Like it's been around
Speaker:
00:37:11
and many, many, writers and filmmakers try to create this type of survival game shows and movies.
Speaker:
00:37:20
Yeah.
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00:37:21
But the way they did it was
Speaker:
00:37:23
so
Speaker:
00:37:24
was a critique of capitalism.
Speaker:
00:37:26
It was such an obvious, brutal critique of capitalism.
Speaker:
00:37:30
There are poor people who are thought to be trash, and they're replaceable, and they're fighting for amusement of the upper class.
Speaker:
00:37:37
You know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:37:38
So, and also it was 2020, like, I think, like, always it's timing.
Speaker:
00:37:43
2021, after COVID.
Speaker:
00:37:45
It just hit us, and that was the time Black Lives Matter, early in the summer, and we're like, Yggdrasil was just starting with Triangles, Sadness, Succession, so on.
Speaker:
00:37:54
So you know what I mean?
Speaker:
00:37:55
It's always about
Speaker:
00:37:56
do you think they waited too long to create the uh, iteration?
Speaker:
00:38:00
Even if they didn't, it's not original enough.
Speaker:
00:38:03
The premise is the same.
Speaker:
00:38:06
But then, then why is it that like so many, Hollywood movies, especially in the past, you know, 10 years is like all sequels.
Speaker:
00:38:16
because of literally what we just talked about.
Speaker:
00:38:19
Because they want to like, efficiency is what drives them, not creativity.
Speaker:
00:38:23
And I learned at Columbia Business School, there is no such thing that works in movie industry like a sequel.
Speaker:
00:38:29
That's guaranteed money.
Speaker:
00:38:30
So you have all those franchises and sequels.
Speaker:
00:38:32
You have Fast and Furious 17.
Speaker:
00:38:34
You have
Speaker:
00:38:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:
00:38:36
All of that because no one wants to be creative and take a risk.
Speaker:
00:38:39
Everyone wants to be just like churn every year, fill out the theaters.
Speaker:
00:38:43
You're going to know that you have an audience and call it a day.
Speaker:
00:38:46
That's why.
Speaker:
00:38:47
And then the audience is probably educated that way as well.
Speaker:
00:38:50
Like, Hey, you know what?
Speaker:
00:38:52
There was a first one that was a big hit.
Speaker:
00:38:53
And so then there must be a next one.
Speaker:
00:38:55
Well, I mean, probably, but someone didn't read that article on Netflix that they sent you.
Speaker:
00:39:00
I sent you over the, yeah, yeah,
Speaker:
00:39:02
no, I didn't.
Speaker:
00:39:03
I didn't.
Speaker:
00:39:03
I don't think I did.
Speaker:
00:39:05
I don't think you did.
Speaker:
00:39:05
I sent you on WhatsApp.
Speaker:
00:39:07
I sent you an article on Netflix.
Speaker:
00:39:09
And the criticism of Netflix recommendation and what it, what he has done for, It's published in N plus one for movie.
Speaker:
00:39:18
They're like, they're basically a television company.
Speaker:
00:39:20
Their enemies were two things, blockbuster and cable.
Speaker:
00:39:24
And now they're like cable with live TV.
Speaker:
00:39:26
And they're like blockbuster in the sense there is ton of crap in a store, but nothing you want to watch.
Speaker:
00:39:33
Okay.
Speaker:
00:39:33
You know what?
Speaker:
00:39:33
I think, I think I know the link, but I never actually read it.
Speaker:
00:39:36
It's okay.
Speaker:
00:39:37
I know.
Speaker:
00:39:37
That's why I said someone did
Speaker:
00:39:38
No, I did.
Speaker:
00:39:39
I did not read it.
Speaker:
00:39:40
So I'll do my homework.
Speaker:
00:39:42
for next time.
Speaker:
00:39:43
Okay, so let's say, for those who are still listening, that one and a half person, you can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.
Speaker:
00:39:54
If you like what you're hearing, leave a review.
Speaker:
00:39:58
I'm Ana Angelic, and this is
Speaker:
00:40:00
Rain a model and see you in two weeks.
Speaker:
00:40:02
See You In Two Weeks.
Speaker:
00:40:03
Thanks for listening.
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from Rei Inamoto/Tara Tan, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.
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