Deconstructing Hasidic Judaism: Dave Lennon’s Story of Survival

WEBVTT
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Welcome to Cult of Maidam, the podcast uncovering
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the dark realities of cults and human trafficking.
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I'm your host, Anonymous Andrew, and each week
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we dive deep into the manipulation, control,
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and courageous escapes that define these worlds.
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And I'm Melody, Andrew's co -host. Having experienced
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the depth of a cult firsthand, specifically the
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house of Yahweh, I am here as an advocate for
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fellow survivors. The views and opinions expressed
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by our guests are their own and do not reflect
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the official policy or position of cultimatum
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or its affiliates. The content discussed on this
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podcast are based on personal experiences and
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should not be construed as factual or legal advice.
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Neither the host nor the guest are liable for
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any statements made during the episodes. Listeners
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are encouraged to conduct their own research
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and seek professional advice where appropriate.
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And before we dive into today's episode, we want
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to issue a trigger warning. Some episodes may
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cover explicit and potentially disturbing subjects
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such as sexual abuse, rape, human trafficking,
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suicide, and other sensitive subjects. Listener
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discretion is advised. Hey, Kultimatum fans,
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before we dive into today's episode, we need
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a tiny favor from each of you. That's right.
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If you love what you hear, please take a moment
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tuning in and for your amazing support. We truly
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appreciate each and every one of you. Now let's
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get started with the show. Here we go. Welcome
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to Kultimatum, the culture of cults and human
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trafficking. And I am your host, Melody. With
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me tonight is my co -host, Andrew. OK. Hello,
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Melody. Yes, hello. To our regular listeners,
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you will notice at the beginning of that episode
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of this episode, it's a little different because
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Melody opened up the episode and there's a reason
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for that. So tonight we have a special guest
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and I found this guest and I wanted him to come
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on and tell his story. I'll tell you a little
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bit about our guest. His name is David Lennon.
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And David is the host of a podcast called Lost
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in the Groove. Correct? Groove. Groove. Lost
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in the Groove. I don't know why I say Groove.
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I got Florida on my mind. Lost in the Groove.
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Dave, we're both part of a pod match, which is
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a podcast community. And that's where we get
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guests and hosts and hosts, they put people together,
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yada yada. Anyway, Dave invited me on his...
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podcast to interview me. And I went on and we
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had a great time. We got, we talked about 90
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minutes and in that conversation, David was dropping
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that little hints that he was brought up in a
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cult. Now, mind you, I was doing being interviewed
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for my digital dating podcast, nothing to do
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with cults. And, um, so I didn't see that coming.
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So bottom line is at the end of the interview,
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I said, hey, Dave, you got to tell me more about
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this. And so Dave was brought up in the outside
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New York City in the Orthodox Jewish community.
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And he wants to come on and tell the story and
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we can't wait to hear it. So Dave, say hello
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and welcome to the show. Hi. How's everybody
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doing tonight? We're doing great. Now that you're
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here, why don't you take over? I'm looking forward
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to this. Yeah, me too. Where do you want me to
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start? To your I guess your earliest memories
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of okay the cult But let's let's not call it
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a cultist yet because what do you want to call
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it? I call it like the other side of my life
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if that makes sense It's hard to be able to accept
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it as it is because there are a lot of wonderful
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things that like I do have Like good memories
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that came out of it. That's that's kind of like
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the mess part messed up part about it is like
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there's all this other messed up shit that comes
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along and then you have that in your brain like,
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hey, hang on a minute, but then why do I have
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all of this? I just try to take it as it is more
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than with labels or anything because for me,
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I was raised in a home where my parents were
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mixed race. So my mom came from an Ashkenazi
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background. She came from third generation European.
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And my dad was an immigrant that came from Casablanca,
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Morocco in 1970. So they got married young, they
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had kids, they became more religious and they
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decided to move into the community, which is
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in Rockland County. They decided to raise a family
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there. And what I think that they may have not
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realized, you know, being that they were desperate
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and trying to find connection and trying to be
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able to find a place that they could raise their
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family, what was in store. So growing up in that
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community, it's weird because I come from like
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a Middle Eastern background, but yet in the community,
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it's not very much accepted. So a lot of the
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schools, which are called Yeshivas, that you
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go to, they're not geared to that group. They're
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only geared towards, you know, either ultra -orthodox,
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like Hasidic groups, or they're more geared to
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Ashkenazi, which are like European Jews. you
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kind of don't fit anywhere. I remember even from
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my youngest memories, you know, my parents tried
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like even from my youngest age to put me in like
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a Stalin school when I was very, very young,
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like right after kindergarten, because my grandfather
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was around Stalin, which is an ascetic sect.
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And they just put me in there because they didn't
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know any better. And I mean, there was no secular
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anything, you know, they mainly focused the entire
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day of teaching you just Torah studies and all
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those things and things that you're not allowed
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to do and things that you're supposed to be doing.
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I was like maybe like five or six years old and
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they were talking about stuff regarding, I even
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remember like selling chickens. It just felt
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bizarre, you know, because you feel like you're
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around these people that are supposed to be teaching
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you and they're supposed to be people that are
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supposed to care for you. But then the next minute,
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if you do something wrong, they drag you into
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a room and then they beat you with a ruler. and
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then sit you in the corner and tell you how horrible
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you are as a human being. And then three seconds
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later, tell you that this is what God wants from
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you. So I'm just going to clarify here, David,
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when you say selling chickens, are you talking
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about in the Old Testament laws where they talk
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about the laws around selling a chicken or something?
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Could you explain that a little bit? Yeah. So
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at a young age, they start teaching you a lot
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of what's called Tanakh. So that like consists
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of like the five books. They'll teach you what's
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called the Mishnah, which is kind of like a pretty
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cursor to the Gemara, which is basically rabbinical
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studies. And some of the stuff that's in there
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is not really like stuff you should be telling
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kids. A lot of it's also extremely outdated.
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I even remember as a young age like they would
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be talking about like even slaughtering of animals.
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And explaining the different reasons why we were
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allowed to sacrifice, and then the reason why
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now we're being punished that we can't do these
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sacrificial sacrifices because we're in what
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they call a state of gullus, like a self -taught
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perjury for the stuff that we've done wrong as
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a people. And it's really strange because my
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parents really try to be there for me, even though
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they... weren't really the greatest parents.
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My dad was mentally and physically abusive. My
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mom was mostly mentally abusive. They clashed
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constantly on religious things. If it was around
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holidays, if it was about what one rabbi said
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and what other person said and how I was supposed
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to fit in. I come from a family where most of
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my siblings, they're in their 40s. I'm in my
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20s. So by the time I was being raised, they
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were already gone. My parents didn't really know
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what to do with me. So they decided to put me
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in what they call in the community because they
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don't recognize any learning disabilities. David,
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let me jump in. Yes, sorry. So your siblings,
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how many siblings? So I have a sister and I have
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two brothers. So they're older than you? Yes.
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And they went through the same thing you did?
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Yes. And did they leave? No, except one. Oh,
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so one got out and two are still in the community.
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But they're in a different community. They're
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in Israel. Believe it or not, this also exists
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over there as well. This is not just something
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that exists in the United States. Israel is the
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hub of the Jewish faith, right? Yeah. So because
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you know, I was a kid that I was having difficulty
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fitting in and I just didn't know what to do
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with myself You know, I had parents where I really
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couldn't communicate I really didn't have anybody
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that I could really trust at a very young age
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some In the community, when you have learning
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disabilities, so if you have like dyslexia, if
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you have ADHD, or if you have some form of autism
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or anything like that, there's no awareness of
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any of that exists over there, because their
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ideology is that you need to learn all of your
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Torah studies, you need to understand it clearly,
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you need to be able to pray three times a day,
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you need to be able to read correctly, like there's
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no excuses. So what they have there is what's
00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:05.559
called correctional schools. So it's a school
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that's like a yeshiva, it's a private school.
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that has smaller classes, and they hire a social
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study worker. But the social study worker is
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a rabbi that works within the community, that
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he comes in and he sits down with you if, quote
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unquote, you have learning disabilities and you
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need things to work on. I had teacher after teacher
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that would throw me out, put me through detention,
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make my life a living hell. My parents gave me
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living hell because I was... too difficult, I
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wasn't understanding, I was questioning too much.
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And to make matters worse, I had a principal
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that didn't like Svardim. He was an Ashkenazi
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Jew that hated people that were a different skin
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tone than he was. And he put that towards every
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single one of the students that looked different.
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He picked on me horribly, even when I had a kid
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that bullied me for seven years straight, every
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single day. without failure. He'd steal my lunch.
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He would make fun of me. He would purposely embarrass
00:11:06.409 --> 00:11:08.570
me in front of, and I had no support structure
00:11:08.570 --> 00:11:11.409
at all. And I was constantly being told that,
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you know, this is what God wants from you. You
00:11:13.850 --> 00:11:15.549
know, you have to be more understanding. Why
00:11:15.549 --> 00:11:17.429
can't you be like this person? Why can't you
00:11:17.429 --> 00:11:21.309
be, and like, I was so confused because I was
00:11:21.309 --> 00:11:24.210
under the notion that I am supposed to be, you
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know, this, this good You know, this good yeed
00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:30.100
or Jew, whatever you want to call it. And I'm
00:11:30.100 --> 00:11:31.840
supposed to, you know, be able to accept what
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:35.340
God has put in front of me. I was just getting,
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I was getting really, really, really tired of
00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:42.179
all of it. It got worse once I got into high
00:11:42.179 --> 00:11:45.759
school. You know, I just. I have a quick question.
00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:48.139
Have you, do you know anything about the bite
00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:50.299
model or Stephen Hassan? Have you heard of Stephen
00:11:50.299 --> 00:11:54.620
Hassan? A little bit. Yeah. I wonder how. Because
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we were discussing whether or not growing up
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:02.279
this way or this religion is a cult, have you
00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.240
actually stood it up against the bite model to
00:12:05.240 --> 00:12:08.799
see if it qualifies according to the bite model
00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:12.039
as a cult by chance? So the problem, it does.
00:12:12.659 --> 00:12:15.500
And the issue a lot of the times is because there's
00:12:15.500 --> 00:12:18.700
this almost sense of care where in the community
00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:21.899
this is idea of if you're... you need help, somebody
00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:24.580
will take care of you. Somebody will be there,
00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:26.919
you know, whatever you need, they'll take care
00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.179
of it. But the second you leave the community,
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which I did, and I felt this immediately, I got
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completely cut off. It took me six years to rekindle
00:12:34.659 --> 00:12:37.799
my relationship with my mom. I lost all connections
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with my family completely. Well, just that right
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there is called like. Yeah, every cult does that
00:12:45.860 --> 00:12:48.259
if you walk away or say you would like to leave
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they they show you the door or they will Yeah,
00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:55.659
then make your life miserable, but here's the
00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:58.940
thing with you Yeah, right, right But what they
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do is also and I had a few I have a close friend
00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:02.759
of mine that this happened to them, too This
00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.200
is what they do and this is not all community.
00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:06.720
They're all different in different ways But what
00:13:06.720 --> 00:13:08.559
they'll do is I'll tell you can leave you can
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.179
go and they will openly let you leave But the
00:13:11.179 --> 00:13:13.929
thing is a second you walk out That's it. They
00:13:13.929 --> 00:13:16.669
cut you off completely. There's no calls. There's
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no nothing. They won't respond. Like I, a good
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friend of mine, and I had this happen to me too.
00:13:22.889 --> 00:13:27.730
I had recently, I took care of, my grandfather
00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:31.129
passed away earlier this year. And growing up,
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I barely spent any time with my grandparents.
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There was a lot of feud between my parents and
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my mother's parents. And my mother's family had
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nothing to do with me once I left the community.
00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.419
like at all. They completely cut me off. No one
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would call me, no one respond, nothing. My grandfather
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became really sick last year in July and I was
00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:51.000
going into school and I was living down here
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:54.460
and they're living here and my mother suggested
00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:56.519
for me to take care of my grandfather and I did.
00:13:57.419 --> 00:14:00.320
And they are religious and we did have, you know,
00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:02.600
but I tried to be very respectful, you know,
00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.679
I didn't try to get into any. And then my family
00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:09.360
and my mother started talking to me. they started
00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.039
like having a relationship and it hurts because
00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.700
it's like you couldn't see me before like it
00:14:16.700 --> 00:14:19.500
takes for my dying grandfather in order for you
00:14:19.500 --> 00:14:23.340
to reach out it's just how horrible and how like
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:25.759
you could choose religion over your own family
00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.259
that's what hurts the most well and it's almost
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:31.080
like i mean if i were you i would feel like you
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:34.340
almost had to earn that respect from them by
00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:37.350
doing what you're doing Yeah, so it's not unconditional.
00:14:37.649 --> 00:14:40.129
It's basically like, well, we should do this
00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:42.230
now because he's taking care of grandpa. David,
00:14:42.289 --> 00:14:47.350
do you have some... I'm going back to the interview
00:14:47.350 --> 00:14:51.029
that we had on your podcast, and I'm remembering,
00:14:51.169 --> 00:14:53.090
and it might have been during the recording or
00:14:53.090 --> 00:14:59.710
after, but number one, I think you told me there
00:14:59.710 --> 00:15:05.370
was some sexual abuse. There's a school in Muncie.
00:15:05.590 --> 00:15:07.629
That's where it's located. It's specifically
00:15:07.629 --> 00:15:11.750
in Viola Park. I went there right after Stalin.
00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:13.789
That was the school that I was in before. This
00:15:13.789 --> 00:15:15.889
was kind of like elementary first, second grade
00:15:15.889 --> 00:15:20.070
time. It's called Base Micra. And the guy that
00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:25.669
was running the school, he was arrested and fined
00:15:25.669 --> 00:15:28.889
and proven to be guilty of his crimes for molesting
00:15:28.889 --> 00:15:34.330
kids in his school. Quick question about that.
00:15:34.590 --> 00:15:37.370
Is that, I mean, how did the community itself
00:15:37.370 --> 00:15:39.470
handle? Did they turn him into the authorities
00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:41.509
or did they, were they protecting him? No, no,
00:15:41.710 --> 00:15:43.710
no, no. No, protected him. He's still in the
00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:45.970
community, still working. Nothing has happened.
00:15:46.309 --> 00:15:49.870
Like I told Andrew about this. My experience
00:15:49.870 --> 00:15:53.250
with him was extremely creepy and extremely vivid
00:15:53.250 --> 00:15:55.850
because I've had a few interactions with him.
00:15:55.889 --> 00:15:58.080
And usually when you were punished, the way that
00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:59.860
they used to do detention, you'd go to her by
00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:01.779
Bodenheimer's office. And when you went into
00:16:01.779 --> 00:16:03.980
his office, he would lock the door, he would
00:16:03.980 --> 00:16:05.960
sit by his desk, and he would sit you by his
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:07.919
window. He had a chair. And he used to stare
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.960
at you. Just stare at you. Then he would come
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.720
over to you, and then he would start caressing
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:14.740
your cheek. And then he would start rubbing your
00:16:14.740 --> 00:16:17.000
shoulder. And then he would sit, like, the man
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.720
was a creep. And he was not the only person in
00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.169
the school. You're not the only person like this
00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:24.169
in the school. I had another teacher of mine
00:16:24.169 --> 00:16:26.210
that he had this thing that whenever you'd want
00:16:26.210 --> 00:16:28.070
to punish you, he would take you to this little
00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:30.070
room. He would hit you with a ruler and then
00:16:30.070 --> 00:16:31.929
start caressing your cheek and then start touching
00:16:31.929 --> 00:16:34.169
you from the behind. Never fired. He's still,
00:16:34.169 --> 00:16:36.730
he's still working there today. That was going
00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:39.110
to be my next question. Is this another situation
00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:41.990
where the community as a whole or the group or
00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:45.070
the cult, whatever we want to call it, is protecting
00:16:45.070 --> 00:16:47.750
them? Cause that is what we, that, that I would
00:16:47.750 --> 00:16:50.669
say, Andrew, that this sounds like it's another
00:16:51.539 --> 00:16:54.399
a red flag that this is a cult because that's
00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:57.120
what all the cults that we have interviewed,
00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:00.399
they do. They protect predators because they
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.659
don't want to tarnish the reputation of the organization.
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:08.240
No. And again, the blatant awareness. So there's
00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:12.099
different rabbinical sectors, but they all kind
00:17:12.099 --> 00:17:14.660
of correlate and communicate across because there's
00:17:14.660 --> 00:17:19.009
different cities within Rockland County. This
00:17:19.009 --> 00:17:21.609
idiocracy of especially when it comes to kids
00:17:21.609 --> 00:17:25.289
that have learning disabilities and, you know,
00:17:25.450 --> 00:17:28.130
are not able to process things the same way.
00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:30.130
I can tell you from my own personal experience,
00:17:30.150 --> 00:17:32.269
I know at least one person that has committed
00:17:32.269 --> 00:17:34.930
suicide because of this. He felt like no one
00:17:34.930 --> 00:17:36.630
would understand him. No one would care for him.
00:17:36.650 --> 00:17:39.589
So he ended his life. And like, it's heart wrenching
00:17:39.589 --> 00:17:43.259
because even his own family cut him off. Because
00:17:43.259 --> 00:17:46.200
he didn't want to be learned. He didn't want
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.180
to sit in Yeshiva. He didn't want to be that
00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:53.019
kind of kid that can... I mean, how could you
00:17:53.019 --> 00:17:55.660
put such kind of pressure on somebody that clearly
00:17:55.660 --> 00:17:59.299
cannot learn like everybody else? And now they
00:17:59.299 --> 00:18:11.019
have these programs. It's horrible. This is my
00:18:11.019 --> 00:18:15.359
favorite part of episodes to the audience. Watching
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:20.619
our guests, the body language shows us how emotional
00:18:20.619 --> 00:18:24.259
it is for them. And we've talked about this in
00:18:24.259 --> 00:18:27.420
the outros. It's hard. It is. Oh, I'm sure. And
00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:30.799
I want to touch upon something. And we do have
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.519
plenty of time. But there was something else
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:35.799
that I don't know if we're going to be jumping
00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:40.640
ahead or we'll come back to it. But you are a
00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:44.019
so the podcast that you have lost in the groove
00:18:44.019 --> 00:18:50.099
is an artistic park podcast. Yes. Where you have
00:18:50.099 --> 00:18:53.480
guests on and you talk a lot about the artistic
00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:56.000
world. Let's just leave it at that for now. And
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.640
there's also a side of you, which I'm not going
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.359
to mention unless you mention it, that it defines
00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:10.329
a particular role inside of you. And where I'm
00:19:10.329 --> 00:19:17.210
going with this is you weren't able to express
00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:21.609
who you truly were in your child years. So do
00:19:21.609 --> 00:19:23.589
you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah,
00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:29.450
sure. We're talking about sexuality, right? Yes.
00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:33.740
Okay. When it comes to conversation, especially
00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:37.279
like around even heterosexuality, even homosexuality,
00:19:37.299 --> 00:19:39.920
these are things that are not discussed. Depending
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.400
on what sect you're in, for example, I come from
00:19:42.400 --> 00:19:45.019
the Orthodox. So usually when you're kind of
00:19:45.019 --> 00:19:46.859
around the age of starting to get married, they
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:50.079
do what's called chassin classes. So they'll
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.000
have guys will come in. I'm not even kidding.
00:19:52.059 --> 00:19:54.160
This is a real thing. They'll sit down with a
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:56.099
rabbi and then the rabbi will explain to them
00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:58.079
how to have sex with a woman. and there'll be
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:00.960
a whole lecture in a class, and it's supposedly
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.599
rabbinical. So that's when guys are supposed
00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:06.279
to know about this, is like right before marriage.
00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.539
So when it comes to the topics, even like homosexuality,
00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.099
I remember growing up is you hear two things.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:16.259
One, it's abomination in front of God. The second
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:19.680
thing is that being gay means that when you die,
00:20:19.940 --> 00:20:24.349
you go to hell. And your punishment is you sit
00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:27.130
in front of a bunch of dark angels. And for all
00:20:27.130 --> 00:20:32.569
of the kids that you've wasted, your semen, they'll
00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:34.549
point at you and make fun of you for eternity.
00:20:35.730 --> 00:20:37.730
So those are the two most common things that
00:20:37.730 --> 00:20:40.369
they will tell you. So you never talk about sex.
00:20:40.829 --> 00:20:43.490
You never talk about like any of it. It's never
00:20:43.490 --> 00:20:46.839
discussed. I remember even from my earliest memories,
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:49.619
like even elementary school, I struggled a lot
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:52.380
of times in school because I was surrounded by
00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:56.180
guys and developing, you know, like becoming
00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:58.980
a teenager. And I don't know what the hell is
00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:04.339
going on. And I'm confused out of my mind. And
00:21:04.339 --> 00:21:08.019
you were being you were being told by I don't
00:21:08.019 --> 00:21:10.420
know what age that they started having these
00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:13.359
sex classes where you by the way, in most of
00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:17.859
our cults. In most of our cults, it didn't, Melody,
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:19.839
correct me if I'm wrong, except for that pamphlet
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:23.400
you got, they don't really teach you sex, right?
00:21:24.019 --> 00:21:27.359
Well, and if they do, it's very controlling.
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:29.920
They're going to tell you what you can and can't
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.339
do. Right. Exactly. Specifically, what kind of
00:21:33.339 --> 00:21:36.779
sex is acceptable, what is not acceptable, literally
00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:41.000
down to positions or, you know, they're very
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.730
controlling. But we had somebody on the other
00:21:43.730 --> 00:21:46.309
night just a guest which hasn't been aired yet
00:21:46.309 --> 00:21:48.269
I don't think or by the time this is there maybe
00:21:48.269 --> 00:21:52.150
but she said that she went from 20 years old
00:21:52.150 --> 00:21:54.690
into a marriage when she was she couldn't kiss
00:21:54.690 --> 00:21:56.990
the guy and All of a sudden on their wedding
00:21:56.990 --> 00:21:58.990
night. They had she had to have sex. She had
00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:02.230
no idea So the in that I think I don't know who
00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:03.809
she that might have been the Amish woman That
00:22:03.809 --> 00:22:07.069
was Amish and that's coming weekend. Yeah, that's
00:22:07.069 --> 00:22:11.990
the Sunday. So at least here At least here they
00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:14.930
gave you a little bit of a sit down and a sex,
00:22:15.190 --> 00:22:18.849
but what David is talking about is they don't
00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:21.950
address, they dress homosexuality and then of
00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:27.430
course they punish you for it. And you're going,
00:22:27.690 --> 00:22:30.549
so your hormones and your teenage adolescent
00:22:30.549 --> 00:22:33.990
going through, I guess, what do you 13, 14, 15,
00:22:34.369 --> 00:22:36.809
you're separated, right? The men and the women,
00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:39.190
the girls are separated at different schools.
00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:41.490
They go to different schools, yeah. Which, by
00:22:41.490 --> 00:22:45.190
the way, if anybody knows anything about gay
00:22:45.190 --> 00:22:47.269
chemistry, I think that's the worst combination
00:22:47.269 --> 00:22:50.210
you could possibly put developing teens that
00:22:50.210 --> 00:22:53.349
are going through that. My biggest issue, like
00:22:53.349 --> 00:22:55.529
I said earlier, like because I had learning disabilities
00:22:55.529 --> 00:22:57.690
and my parents, you know, they didn't really
00:22:57.690 --> 00:23:00.369
know what to do. There really is no structure.
00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:03.990
So their idea is what, again, is called correctional
00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:06.390
schools. So when I went to high school, I went
00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:09.410
to boarding correctional schools. Ones, for example,
00:23:09.609 --> 00:23:12.069
where you go to a boarding house. So it'll be
00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:13.769
either a rabbi's house or somebody that's in
00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:15.589
the community. In my case, it was in Baltimore.
00:23:15.910 --> 00:23:17.769
And then you go to your yeshiva. They'll have
00:23:17.769 --> 00:23:19.970
a building you come in for your classes. Most
00:23:19.970 --> 00:23:22.789
of your curriculum, this is high school. Most
00:23:22.789 --> 00:23:26.160
of your curriculum is... Hebrew studies, you
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:27.420
know, they'll teach you Gomorrah and different
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.480
things. And then you have maybe an hour to two
00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:33.400
hours of secular studies. I was in awe in the
00:23:33.400 --> 00:23:36.299
place that I was living in because from the very
00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:38.640
start, the place I was in, that was in Baltimore,
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:42.420
I was with kids that were on drugs. They came
00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:45.779
from broken homes. They were, some of them had
00:23:45.779 --> 00:23:47.819
violent charges. Okay, we're talking about people
00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:50.359
that are 14, 15 years. They had charges already
00:23:50.359 --> 00:23:52.630
on the record. And I'm sitting there. in front
00:23:52.630 --> 00:23:54.930
of this rabbi that spent the entire year that
00:23:54.930 --> 00:23:58.049
I was there, telling me of how bad of a Jew I
00:23:58.049 --> 00:24:02.289
was, how I disgraced my family, and how I don't
00:24:02.289 --> 00:24:04.529
pray the way that I'm supposed to, how I focus
00:24:04.529 --> 00:24:06.829
on too many things that are secular and not religious.
00:24:07.670 --> 00:24:12.470
I reached out to my mom and I begged her to come
00:24:12.470 --> 00:24:17.849
out and get me out of there. She did. And it
00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:21.670
was just one hellhole after the other. My parents...
00:24:21.670 --> 00:24:25.970
Was that around 2018? No, this was 2014. 2014,
00:24:26.230 --> 00:24:29.210
okay. Yeah, 2013, 2014. My parents decided to
00:24:29.210 --> 00:24:32.529
put me in another boarding school in Bronx. So
00:24:32.529 --> 00:24:34.509
to make a... I'll kind of explain it a little
00:24:34.509 --> 00:24:37.029
bit, but basically the school was run by a man
00:24:37.029 --> 00:24:39.410
that was a part of the Satmar mafia. So some
00:24:39.410 --> 00:24:42.700
of the Hasidic groups, they work in... doing
00:24:42.700 --> 00:24:44.640
illegal activities in order to bring in money
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:46.579
to the community. If you want, I can talk about
00:24:46.579 --> 00:24:49.400
that. But one of the things that they do is they'll
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:52.720
build schools or they'll build, you know, anything
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:54.519
pertaining to education and then they'll use
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:58.180
it as write -offs to collect money from the government.
00:24:59.140 --> 00:25:00.920
And there's different ways of how they do this.
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.059
So the guy that I went through, he ran basically
00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:06.440
like a high school grade, you know, like equivalent,
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:08.660
and therefore he was able to get grants and money
00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:10.660
from the government. Problem was, like, the man
00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:12.759
was on the run. He was already, like, on the
00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:15.200
FBI's, like, warrant list and all that stuff.
00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:19.079
And I was in a place where I was in a house that
00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:22.279
was falling apart with broken beds, with guys
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.960
that were on bath salts, dealing drugs, doing
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:29.259
alcohol, abusing me because they had a feeling
00:25:29.259 --> 00:25:32.900
I was gay. This was a Hasidic immunity? So he
00:25:32.900 --> 00:25:35.700
was Hasidic, but he was running a correctional
00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:37.940
boarding school. like yeshiva for high school
00:25:37.940 --> 00:25:40.779
for high schoolers for the wayward so you were
00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:44.140
considered wayward yeah i was delinquent delinquent
00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:47.720
okay and is that mostly because of your disability
00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.759
or was there okay wow yeah wow they wouldn't
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:53.599
accept me they wouldn't accept me in any other
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:55.980
place because i had these disabilities i was
00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:59.460
literally denied from like 15 other places so
00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:02.359
you're just thrown in with troublemakers and
00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:07.430
lawbreakers and so how was How is this supposed
00:26:07.430 --> 00:26:10.309
to help you? I mean, that's just gonna expose
00:26:10.309 --> 00:26:11.930
you to more things that are... Well, that's the
00:26:11.930 --> 00:26:16.170
question, yeah. Yeah. I... Around that time,
00:26:16.470 --> 00:26:18.369
it was also really hard because I was still struggling
00:26:18.369 --> 00:26:21.569
with my sexuality and dealing with a bunch of
00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:23.569
these guys where there were times I would run
00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:25.809
into my room, rip off my sheets and pull off
00:26:25.809 --> 00:26:28.390
my pants and start calling me femboy. It was
00:26:28.390 --> 00:26:32.369
hell. And is that because you had told them that
00:26:32.369 --> 00:26:36.390
you were, like, having... The guy that was running
00:26:36.390 --> 00:26:39.410
the place, he went ahead and he spread a rumor.
00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:42.130
So they bullied me even more for the last five
00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:45.329
months that I was there. So you never came out
00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:48.829
before that or during, when I say before that,
00:26:48.950 --> 00:26:52.670
in the other school or like before 2014 or when
00:26:52.670 --> 00:26:55.609
they put you into this delinquent school? I didn't
00:26:55.609 --> 00:26:58.829
even know. I mean, the first sexual experience
00:26:58.829 --> 00:27:01.309
I had was when I was about 14. It was with somebody
00:27:01.309 --> 00:27:03.049
that was 18 years old and it was with a guy.
00:27:05.309 --> 00:27:07.809
I'm going to say something that I don't know
00:27:07.809 --> 00:27:11.829
if it's political correct or not. And you can
00:27:11.829 --> 00:27:14.970
tell me and if we have to, we can take it out.
00:27:14.970 --> 00:27:17.890
Sure. But you don't come across to me as a feminine.
00:27:18.130 --> 00:27:19.789
You don't come across. As a matter of fact, when
00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:22.950
you told me you were gay, it didn't shock me.
00:27:23.190 --> 00:27:25.910
But it did. But it did. I kind of raise an eyebrow
00:27:25.910 --> 00:27:30.390
like, oh, because in 2020, In the years that
00:27:30.390 --> 00:27:33.549
we're living now, gay pride is huge. So there's
00:27:33.549 --> 00:27:37.490
people who are gay who wear it on their sleeve.
00:27:37.650 --> 00:27:42.109
Is that the term? They will wear the certain
00:27:42.109 --> 00:27:47.170
clothes. They will be very proud of it. You don't
00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:50.029
exude that. You don't. No, because I don't come
00:27:50.029 --> 00:27:53.549
from it. I mean, when I left the community, it's
00:27:53.549 --> 00:27:57.380
weird. I spent most of my time around artists
00:27:57.380 --> 00:28:00.380
and hippies, if you want to call that, you know,
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:05.200
nomads. I, I kind of figured out who I was around
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:08.180
those people. So I kind of became a very like,
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:10.160
I know this is like a very like, you know, like
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.480
a very like freestyle hippie, if that makes any
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:15.599
sense. Your parents were hippies, I guess. In
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:19.299
a way. Yeah. My, my, my parents were very like
00:28:19.299 --> 00:28:22.019
free spirited, you know, it's the problem was
00:28:22.019 --> 00:28:24.240
like, there's a term in the community, which
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.819
is called balchuvas. So, Balchruvas are people
00:28:27.819 --> 00:28:31.460
that return to the community. And my parents
00:28:31.460 --> 00:28:34.240
are the product of this. And what happens is
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.640
that they come in with no direction. So, my dad
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:40.339
being a Sephardic Moroccan Jew in an Ashkenazi
00:28:40.339 --> 00:28:43.119
community with Germans and Lithuanians, he had
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:45.299
to assimilate. So, there were a lot of the times
00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:48.880
where he could pray by his prayers. but he'd
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.839
also have to assimilate to whoever the rabbi
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.779
was in the area or whoever who the rabbi was
00:28:53.779 --> 00:28:55.700
in that synagogue or whatever they're saying.
00:28:56.259 --> 00:28:58.799
So, there was this constant conflict with the
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:01.960
two of them where their logic more fell on religion
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.599
than actual like reality most of the time. Interesting.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:12.380
Yeah. When it came to high school, I was really
00:29:12.380 --> 00:29:15.140
starting to figure things out for myself and
00:29:15.140 --> 00:29:19.569
I... was really struggling with my parents. My
00:29:19.569 --> 00:29:22.809
dad and I was constantly in conflicts. We could
00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:25.670
not get along. My mom, we were constantly arguing.
00:29:26.250 --> 00:29:29.509
My brother, he lived in Israel for most of the
00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:31.950
time that I was being raised. So he told my parents
00:29:31.950 --> 00:29:36.329
for me to come out. I came out to Israel. I went
00:29:36.329 --> 00:29:39.089
to, he was in a school. It was a post high school
00:29:39.089 --> 00:29:42.660
program. This was around 2015. I was starting
00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:46.200
to get to know him. Israel was who? With my brother.
00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:49.980
Okay. He was a rabbi at the school. He was a
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:52.039
teacher. So he's one of my teachers that I had.
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.000
So what they have in the religious world, it's
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:57.180
called a post high school program. So you'll
00:29:57.180 --> 00:30:00.539
go to Israel for about a year or two years. They
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:03.180
still teach you like, you know, the Talmud and
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:05.259
the Torah and all of those things, but they'll
00:30:05.259 --> 00:30:07.500
do like some activities and you're supposed to
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:10.119
like explore Israel. That's that's the idea,
00:30:10.339 --> 00:30:13.000
you know until the actual country is real. Yeah.
00:30:13.180 --> 00:30:17.460
Yeah. Yeah, so I go there and I'm already like
00:30:17.460 --> 00:30:20.059
questioning my faith and I'm already questioning
00:30:20.059 --> 00:30:21.819
my own sexuality because I'm trying to figure
00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:24.960
myself out and then I end up in an environment
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:27.779
with guys that are From my same background. They
00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:29.940
are Sephardic. So we're all Middle Eastern, you
00:30:29.940 --> 00:30:31.640
know that I'm Moroccan some of them are Egyptian
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:34.640
some of them are from Lebanon some of them are
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.940
from Syria so I'm able to interact with people
00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:39.740
that are similar to my own culture for the first
00:30:39.740 --> 00:30:42.259
time in my entire life, because I was raised
00:30:42.259 --> 00:30:45.839
in a very either Hasidish or Ashkenazi community.
00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:50.519
But they turned out to be, if not more shallow
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.539
and more closed than the people that I was raised
00:30:53.539 --> 00:30:56.640
with. They ostracized you in the sense where
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.019
if you didn't have money, if you didn't fit their
00:30:59.019 --> 00:31:01.019
status, if you didn't fit their direction, you
00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:04.240
weren't welcome. And there were a few guys that
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.890
were there. that started to figure out things.
00:31:08.589 --> 00:31:11.430
It was very hard for me to be able to hide it.
00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:15.170
So 2015 -ish, you went to this delinquent school
00:31:15.170 --> 00:31:18.509
where they were doing all these bad things like
00:31:18.509 --> 00:31:21.609
bath salts and whatever. 2014, 2015, yeah. Right.
00:31:22.089 --> 00:31:25.289
And when did you go to Israel? The end of 2015.
00:31:25.309 --> 00:31:29.130
Okay, so... Going into 2016, yeah. How much time
00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:31.430
there? One year, two years? I was there for a
00:31:31.430 --> 00:31:33.960
year and a half. So I came back to the States
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:39.599
in 2017. I came back in May around that time.
00:31:39.980 --> 00:31:42.039
But while you were in Israel is when you came
00:31:42.039 --> 00:31:45.160
out. I didn't come out by choice. So what happened
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.579
was somebody in the school that I was close with
00:31:48.579 --> 00:31:51.559
told my brother. So I wasn't raised with my brother
00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:54.539
and he was under this inkling that he already
00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:56.539
had a relationship with me as if like we were
00:31:56.539 --> 00:31:59.660
brothers for 20 years. Even though I'm like,
00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:01.720
hello, like I'm still getting to know you man.
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:03.660
Like you're not a stranger to me, like you're
00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:06.779
your family, but I don't know you. So he pulls
00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:09.559
me into a room and he gives me this whole conversation
00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:12.579
about on how I have a disease and how I need
00:32:12.579 --> 00:32:15.720
to fix my sickness. So I asked him what I'm talking
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:19.480
about and he says, well, one of the classmates
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.339
was on your computer and they found stuff on
00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:24.819
there. I'm not gonna go any further. And I was
00:32:24.819 --> 00:32:26.759
sitting there froze and I didn't know what to
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:28.180
say. And he says, it's okay, you don't have to
00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:29.980
admit anything, I already know. He says, well,
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.559
I want you to understand something. I said, understand
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:34.720
what? He says, well, you know that this is an
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:38.039
abomination and the purpose of a man, especially
00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:40.220
in Judaism, is to be able to get married with
00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:42.339
a woman and be able to provide for their family
00:32:42.339 --> 00:32:44.480
and raise children. This is not a way of being
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:46.869
able to do this. I said, well, other people have
00:32:46.869 --> 00:32:49.150
different life choices. He says, well, you have
00:32:49.150 --> 00:32:51.809
to understand that homosexuality is just like
00:32:51.809 --> 00:32:53.509
somebody that runs around the streets that are
00:32:53.509 --> 00:32:58.009
naked. I said, what? He says, yeah, well, because
00:32:58.009 --> 00:32:59.930
when somebody is mentally ill, are you going
00:32:59.930 --> 00:33:01.970
to tell the person running around naked to just
00:33:01.970 --> 00:33:04.089
keep doing that? Or are you going to tell them,
00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:06.190
hey, you're naked and you need to be taken care
00:33:06.190 --> 00:33:08.099
of? It gives me, this whole conversation tells
00:33:08.099 --> 00:33:09.960
me that I need to get, you know, I need conversion
00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:12.480
therapy and I need to get fixed and there's something
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:14.920
wrong with me. So he gives me this number to
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.720
this organization. I call up the guy and the
00:33:17.720 --> 00:33:19.759
guy, I explained to him the whole situation.
00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:21.220
I said, do you speak to my brother? He said,
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:23.279
yeah, I did. I did speak to your brother. And
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.779
I told him the whole thing. And I mentioned about
00:33:26.779 --> 00:33:28.819
gay conversion therapy. He says to me, gay conversion
00:33:28.819 --> 00:33:31.460
therapy? I never mentioned that. And I said,
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:33.619
what do you mean? He says, no, he says, we have
00:33:33.619 --> 00:33:36.980
a support group over here. We help people that
00:33:36.980 --> 00:33:40.480
are gay and also Jewish to figure out their own
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.619
sexuality and figure out them own selves so they'll
00:33:42.619 --> 00:33:45.019
be able to live your own normal life. I said,
00:33:46.059 --> 00:33:49.059
as gay? He says, yeah, why not? So I got off
00:33:49.059 --> 00:33:54.019
the phone and this is, I know this sounds like
00:33:54.019 --> 00:33:56.680
a movie, but it's not. It started to rain and
00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:59.079
I went. There was like a stairwell that was on,
00:33:59.180 --> 00:34:00.599
there was like a terrace. There was the dorm
00:34:00.599 --> 00:34:03.000
room on one side and there was the other side
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:04.859
is where they had the synagogue, which is also
00:34:04.859 --> 00:34:06.359
where they did, they had the teaching. So I went
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:07.920
by the stairwell, there was a door and I sat
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:11.440
down there and I just started crying. And I called
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.840
up my other brother. This is a brother that he
00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.280
lives currently, still lives in California. I
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.139
came out and he didn't respond. My brother was
00:34:20.139 --> 00:34:22.280
not religious at the time, but he was closeted.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:26.309
So we didn't really know what was going on. He
00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:30.130
said to me, um, he says, okay. And I said, what
00:34:30.130 --> 00:34:32.389
do you mean and I just came out to you. He said,
00:34:32.789 --> 00:34:35.489
you're still my brother. I said, yeah. He says,
00:34:35.610 --> 00:34:37.590
okay. So what's the problem? I said, nothing's
00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:40.269
a problem. And I, I just like, I stopped crying
00:34:40.269 --> 00:34:43.429
and I just, you expect a kickback or, or, yeah.
00:34:43.650 --> 00:34:46.610
Okay. But he was, he was very welcoming. He was
00:34:46.610 --> 00:34:49.369
very warm. He helped me a lot to try to, to figure
00:34:49.369 --> 00:34:52.010
out who I was, try to be able to get me in the
00:34:52.010 --> 00:34:54.710
right support groups. But my other brother, I
00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:56.949
assume this is the other brother who left, who
00:34:56.949 --> 00:34:58.929
was not part of the community anymore. Okay.
00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.170
I just wanted to clarify that. Okay. He was also
00:35:02.170 --> 00:35:05.269
the one that told me recently, which is how I
00:35:05.269 --> 00:35:07.269
start to click that we were raised in a cult
00:35:07.269 --> 00:35:09.610
because we had a conversation for like over an
00:35:09.610 --> 00:35:12.190
hour and he just kept on telling it to me. And
00:35:12.190 --> 00:35:15.090
I told him, I said, you're crazy. You know, he
00:35:15.090 --> 00:35:17.570
sat me down for a good half hour explaining things.
00:35:17.610 --> 00:35:19.650
And when I got off the phone with him, I just
00:35:19.650 --> 00:35:22.230
couldn't breathe. that that's the way I could,
00:35:22.449 --> 00:35:25.829
I had just a really hard time breathing and just
00:35:25.829 --> 00:35:29.190
staying aware and alert. But my experience in
00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:31.570
Israel kind of allowed me to kind of figure out
00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:34.210
who I was at a person. And I came back to the
00:35:34.210 --> 00:35:38.289
States. I went in with, I came in with, I stayed
00:35:38.289 --> 00:35:40.829
by a friend. That didn't work out. And then I
00:35:40.829 --> 00:35:42.829
had to go live in with my parents and that was
00:35:42.829 --> 00:35:45.090
complete hell. Did they know? Did you come out
00:35:45.090 --> 00:35:48.840
to them or they didn't know? No. I came out to
00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:51.940
my mom a few months later. My mom, I love her
00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:54.300
very much, but she's not the most mentally stable
00:35:54.300 --> 00:35:56.340
individual, something that I've had to learn
00:35:56.340 --> 00:35:58.559
as an adult. She doesn't understand that you
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.539
can't share everything with family members. So
00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:04.659
I told her in confidence and she went and she
00:36:04.659 --> 00:36:07.099
told my dad. And then my dad started becoming
00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:09.500
more, he started becoming more violent and it
00:36:09.500 --> 00:36:11.380
was becoming very, very uncomfortable. My dad
00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:13.539
used to get physical. He would pick up his hand.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.260
He would threaten you. I went back to Israel.
00:36:16.349 --> 00:36:19.389
Crazy enough, my brother and my cousin convinced
00:36:19.389 --> 00:36:22.769
me to live there. And I stayed there until about
00:36:22.769 --> 00:36:26.269
2019. That's really when I started to realize
00:36:26.269 --> 00:36:29.670
where I came from, who I really was as a Jew,
00:36:29.909 --> 00:36:33.090
really be able to appreciate my ancestry. You
00:36:33.090 --> 00:36:35.090
know, like something that's been hard for me
00:36:35.090 --> 00:36:38.409
to swallow is the fact that my dad comes from
00:36:38.409 --> 00:36:42.929
700 years of Moroccan ancestry, and his entire
00:36:42.929 --> 00:36:46.420
family are traditional Jews. They do traditional
00:36:46.420 --> 00:36:52.320
Moroccan customs. They drive on Shabas. They're
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:54.500
not religious, but they're traditionally still
00:36:54.500 --> 00:36:56.519
hold on to their heritage. And I grew up in an
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:58.440
environment where all of that was assimilated,
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:02.579
wiped off, non -existent. I'm not blaming my
00:37:02.579 --> 00:37:06.980
dad. Everybody makes their own choices, but that's
00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:11.139
just a hard pill to swallow. So when would you
00:37:11.139 --> 00:37:15.440
say that you officially left the Hasidic? sect
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:19.880
of what you were brought up in prior, 2014, 2015,
00:37:20.380 --> 00:37:22.599
even though you went to Israel, you must have...
00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:24.780
2017. So, 2017, you were officially... 2017,
00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:28.019
yeah. Did you leave, and I think I know the answer
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:30.599
to this, you didn't leave the Jewish faith, you
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.119
just left the Hasidic community. I left the Orthodox
00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.400
community. The Orthodox community. Yeah, I'm
00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:40.179
not religious in any shape or nature, but if
00:37:40.179 --> 00:37:42.860
anybody asks me, I will say proudly that I am
00:37:42.860 --> 00:37:46.349
an Arab Jew. You identify as a Jew? Yes, I am
00:37:46.349 --> 00:37:48.690
proud of being a Jew because the thing that I
00:37:48.690 --> 00:37:52.769
realize is that you can take something that can
00:37:52.769 --> 00:37:54.849
be a part of a culture, because I understand
00:37:54.849 --> 00:37:56.869
this from my dad's upbringing, like coming from
00:37:56.869 --> 00:37:59.030
Morocco and having that history, and you could
00:37:59.030 --> 00:38:01.789
turn something so beautiful like that and then
00:38:01.789 --> 00:38:04.050
turn it into something where you try to control
00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:07.409
and manipulate and put people in places. Even
00:38:07.409 --> 00:38:11.210
when... I think there's a difference between
00:38:11.210 --> 00:38:15.190
the Jewish religion and being Jewish, meaning
00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:19.429
that, you know, like, I'm French, I have French
00:38:19.429 --> 00:38:22.309
in me, I don't speak French, but I know that
00:38:22.309 --> 00:38:25.289
that's part of my culture, part of who I am,
00:38:25.590 --> 00:38:28.409
but that doesn't mean that I necessarily make
00:38:28.409 --> 00:38:31.309
that my everyday part of life or that I, yeah,
00:38:31.489 --> 00:38:32.210
so I think there's a difference. I'm half Italian
00:38:32.210 --> 00:38:37.329
and I hate pizza. I mean, I should say I hate
00:38:37.329 --> 00:38:39.469
pizza, but I don't eat, and I don't eat spaghetti
00:38:39.469 --> 00:38:42.260
and I'm not, you know, like, I'm not forgot.
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.139
I'm American. I'm a mutt, you know? So, David,
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:53.260
take us, there's a few more things I want to
00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:56.440
cover because he's got a fascinating journey.
00:38:57.179 --> 00:39:01.139
So you left the orthodox. Let's talk about your
00:39:01.139 --> 00:39:05.559
art, your artistic journey. You also, so I don't
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:07.320
want to talk about your podcast a little bit.
00:39:07.539 --> 00:39:09.719
And then there's, and I think you talked, to
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:12.079
me about this, and maybe, I don't know if it's
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:14.699
still active, but you have another podcast called
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:17.199
The American Groove with Carissa Andrews, or
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:22.539
is that defunct? That is defunct. It's an interesting
00:39:22.539 --> 00:39:26.820
story. One of the first things I did when I got
00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:29.420
out of the community, I started trying to be
00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:31.599
able to build friendships, particularly with
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:36.570
women. And to this day, majority of my friends
00:39:36.570 --> 00:39:39.030
are females. They're not males. Which is typical
00:39:39.030 --> 00:39:42.650
in the gay community. Yeah. What was interesting
00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:45.469
about Carissa was like this was 2019. So this
00:39:45.469 --> 00:39:47.550
is like literally a few years right after I left
00:39:47.550 --> 00:39:49.969
the community. I was still like figuring myself
00:39:49.969 --> 00:39:53.150
out. And she was also figuring herself out. She
00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:55.489
was going through her whole different life change.
00:39:55.570 --> 00:39:59.030
And we came from... Two completely different
00:39:59.030 --> 00:40:02.210
backgrounds. She grew up Protestant in Iowa,
00:40:02.429 --> 00:40:04.949
you know. Bible Belt, yeah. Bible Belt, like
00:40:04.949 --> 00:40:07.570
completely different. And I love that. Like there
00:40:07.570 --> 00:40:09.869
was something about her that I constantly felt
00:40:09.869 --> 00:40:14.969
this kindle between her and it just soured, you
00:40:14.969 --> 00:40:19.010
know. I mean, our lives changed, we moved, you
00:40:19.010 --> 00:40:21.010
know. Something I've realized as I've gotten
00:40:21.010 --> 00:40:24.679
older is that Relationships, you can't hold on
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:27.539
to them always. Sometimes relationships are there
00:40:27.539 --> 00:40:31.159
for short times, and that's okay. I think it's
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:33.480
the time that you spend and the work that you
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:35.500
do and the things you gain from the other person
00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:39.800
and the memories. poem called Relationship Season.
00:40:41.360 --> 00:40:43.960
God, if I knew we were going to do this, I would
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.340
have folded up. One of the lines is like a reason,
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.400
a season, or a lifetime. And it basically says
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:52.199
that people come into your life for different
00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:54.519
reasons. Some people come in for a reason, some
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:56.559
people come into your life for a season, and
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:59.760
some people are there for a lifetime. Yes. And
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:02.739
you do learn that as you go through life. Okay.
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:05.619
So then take us, I, so that you tried something
00:41:05.619 --> 00:41:09.519
with, with Karissa and it, you guys didn't work.
00:41:09.900 --> 00:41:13.239
So take us to when you started lost in the groove.
00:41:14.019 --> 00:41:17.619
So I started lost in the groove in May of 2021.
00:41:18.179 --> 00:41:19.619
Like I said, you know, with everything that I've
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:22.920
been through, I constantly had this anger inside
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:25.739
of me that I just need to talk because for so
00:41:25.739 --> 00:41:28.719
long, I felt so restricted of being able to anything
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.179
I said can get me in trouble or, you know, if
00:41:31.179 --> 00:41:32.619
I don't say something the right way and I just
00:41:32.619 --> 00:41:35.800
like, I wanted to be free. So I had a therapist
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.239
when I was, I had her for a short period. She
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:41.780
was a fantastic therapist. She was a flower child
00:41:41.780 --> 00:41:45.059
from the seventies. God bless this woman. She
00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:47.219
got me through a lot of stuff. But one thing
00:41:47.219 --> 00:41:49.360
she told me, she says, if you have something
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:52.349
to say, Say it." I said, what do you want me
00:41:52.349 --> 00:41:54.610
to do about it? She says, well, you could write
00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:58.250
letters. You could go on a radio or you could
00:41:58.250 --> 00:42:02.010
start a podcast. And that stuck with me. And
00:42:02.010 --> 00:42:07.309
then a while down, I had this smoke shop. This
00:42:07.309 --> 00:42:08.969
guy's name was Mike that we were close with.
00:42:08.989 --> 00:42:13.090
And we had these deep conversations. We had just
00:42:13.090 --> 00:42:15.639
one day, I said, man, we should make a podcast.
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.500
And I already had like an idea with Carissa before,
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:20.420
like we were talking about podcasts and like
00:42:20.420 --> 00:42:23.539
I came up with a name and like was lost in the
00:42:23.539 --> 00:42:27.000
groove. So I said, Mike, let's do this. So we
00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.760
made the podcast. And from the very beginning,
00:42:29.980 --> 00:42:32.960
I tried, you know, to like be the most perfect,
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:35.300
you know, and I was struggling and he kept on
00:42:35.300 --> 00:42:37.440
telling me, he's like, listen, this is an art.
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:40.099
It takes a while to get used to, like you'll
00:42:40.099 --> 00:42:43.980
fall in love with the craft and I remember when
00:42:43.980 --> 00:42:47.679
I had the first person I had on this podcast
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:52.019
that was also like me, that left the community.
00:42:52.900 --> 00:42:55.599
And we had a conversation. I left that conversation
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:58.840
and I just, something snapped. This was about
00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.059
maybe right after, like after Mike left, this
00:43:02.059 --> 00:43:05.519
was probably like around 2023, something clicked.
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:07.780
And I said to myself, like, this is something
00:43:07.780 --> 00:43:10.960
that I wanted to do. You know, I wanted to be
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:14.000
at least somebody that came out of that community
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:16.559
because I have friends that have also left the
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:18.320
community and trying to do the same thing where
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:20.719
just to be able to give people an opportunity
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.340
to talk, you know, it hurts me so hard to even
00:43:24.340 --> 00:43:26.900
think about the times of how like I was hurt
00:43:26.900 --> 00:43:29.519
because of something I said. And I'm like, what
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:31.579
did I do wrong? What, you know, like I think
00:43:31.579 --> 00:43:34.219
allowing people to have that freedom of expression,
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.619
you know, just having that open conversations,
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:40.579
like you learn. I've learned so much more about
00:43:40.579 --> 00:43:43.099
people being outside of that community than I've
00:43:43.099 --> 00:43:45.619
ever had in my entire life. It's... You were
00:43:45.619 --> 00:43:47.760
living in a bubble. Yeah. You were living in
00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.840
an echo chamber where you were just hearing one
00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:52.920
perspective and that definitely screams cult.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.800
I see it as, like I said earlier, I see it as
00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:02.119
another version of myself. Like, of you the person
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:05.019
back then died and then another person was born.
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:10.630
It's... It's hard like I that friend of mine
00:44:10.630 --> 00:44:13.130
we were talking about this and they said the
00:44:13.130 --> 00:44:16.909
same thing We're it's so hard to put yourself
00:44:16.909 --> 00:44:19.630
back in there because it's so painful to remember
00:44:19.630 --> 00:44:22.329
Do you just you have to separate it in your brain
00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:24.070
because how else are you supposed to function?
00:44:24.530 --> 00:44:27.409
Yeah, it's it's there's there's actually a name
00:44:27.409 --> 00:44:29.429
for it. It's called religious trauma syndrome
00:44:29.429 --> 00:44:33.519
that it's yeah Wow We got to begin to wrap it
00:44:33.519 --> 00:44:36.280
up, David, but we do have a couple of questions
00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:40.860
that we'd like to ask to the audience. David
00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:44.539
is getting very emotional right now, which is
00:44:44.539 --> 00:44:49.079
why I love doing this. Unfortunately, it's not
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:54.300
on video, but it just shows the power of the
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:58.190
journey. that these ex -cult members have gone
00:44:58.190 --> 00:45:00.989
through, the transformations that they've gone
00:45:00.989 --> 00:45:03.570
through in their lives from their family, their
00:45:03.570 --> 00:45:09.789
friends, the rejection they have endured. All
00:45:09.789 --> 00:45:16.019
of it. You kind of answered this question already.
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:19.059
Where are you with your faith today? So you identify
00:45:19.059 --> 00:45:22.179
as a Jew, but you're not very religious. Amelia,
00:45:22.219 --> 00:45:23.719
do you want to ask your question? There was another
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.400
question I wanted to ask. Do you want to follow
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:28.519
up with your question? I can ask my question.
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:30.900
What we usually ask people, and I don't know
00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:34.139
if you've thought a lot about this just because
00:45:34.139 --> 00:45:37.239
of, it sounds like you're still in the process
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:42.320
of trying to deconstruct some of that. that trauma
00:45:42.320 --> 00:45:44.579
that you've went through and actually figure
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:46.739
out even what you believe now at this point.
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:51.099
But the question that I usually ask at the end
00:45:51.099 --> 00:45:54.579
of an episode is if you know of somebody else
00:45:54.579 --> 00:45:57.880
who's in a similar situation and you can specifically,
00:45:58.380 --> 00:46:01.340
maybe specifically Judaism or in another kind
00:46:01.340 --> 00:46:03.599
of cult or thinking about joining a group like
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.619
that, do you have any specific advice that you
00:46:06.619 --> 00:46:09.400
would give them? Trust your gut and be able to
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:12.679
think your own mind. and realize that just because
00:46:12.679 --> 00:46:15.539
you have people around you that are not loving
00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:17.860
you the way that you want to be loved or cared
00:46:17.860 --> 00:46:20.320
for doesn't mean that those people don't exist.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:22.599
They do exist. They're just not around your circle
00:46:22.599 --> 00:46:25.360
right now. Where would you say that you are in
00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:29.760
your deconstruction? So I think you told me when
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:34.500
we interviewed that you were 26 or 27? 26. 27
00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:38.559
next year. You left around 2018, I think you
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:42.699
said? 2017, so I was 18. About 10 years you've
00:46:42.699 --> 00:46:45.400
been out officially of the Orthodox community.
00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:50.760
Where are you in your deconstruction? I can see
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.739
the emotions still in there, and this is a complicated,
00:46:54.000 --> 00:46:57.340
very convoluted question because it's not just
00:46:57.340 --> 00:47:00.679
somebody who left a cult, it's a gay person who
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:03.869
left a cult and who was... persecuted in the
00:47:03.869 --> 00:47:07.030
entire journey through that. So you have two
00:47:07.030 --> 00:47:09.809
obstacles that you had to overcome. Yeah. And
00:47:09.809 --> 00:47:12.969
the truth is, and it's a hard thing to swallow,
00:47:13.269 --> 00:47:16.150
a lot of people like myself that has those double,
00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:18.690
you know, with the sexuality and also leaving
00:47:18.690 --> 00:47:21.630
the community, most of them don't, are not alive.
00:47:22.210 --> 00:47:24.750
They're not, they don't reach 26 or they don't
00:47:24.750 --> 00:47:26.829
make it too long. Most of them either overdose
00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:32.690
or they commit suicide. I know this because We
00:47:32.690 --> 00:47:34.730
talked about that. Yeah. I've heard enough stories
00:47:34.730 --> 00:47:37.070
and dealt with it enough myself. We talked about
00:47:37.070 --> 00:47:39.929
that. I think the thing that's kept me the strongest
00:47:39.929 --> 00:47:44.510
is not to be isolated, is to find people that
00:47:44.510 --> 00:47:47.050
I genuinely find really good connections with
00:47:47.050 --> 00:47:49.849
and make really good relationships out of. And
00:47:49.849 --> 00:47:51.789
even the people that come around my life, whether
00:47:51.789 --> 00:47:54.909
it be maybe school or... come by like just to
00:47:54.909 --> 00:47:57.489
be able to be happy. The fact that I have my
00:47:57.489 --> 00:48:00.449
own life, like I'm able to do what I need to
00:48:00.449 --> 00:48:02.710
be who I want to be. And I'm not restricted.
00:48:02.989 --> 00:48:06.349
I'm really thankful for that. But yeah. Would
00:48:06.349 --> 00:48:09.170
you say that your podcast has also helped you
00:48:09.170 --> 00:48:12.170
in your journey? Oh yeah. It's been honestly,
00:48:12.250 --> 00:48:14.889
it's been one of my therapies. Like I, I don't
00:48:14.889 --> 00:48:19.769
talk about it, but it is. And one last question,
00:48:19.949 --> 00:48:21.949
I think I remember you telling me that you are
00:48:21.949 --> 00:48:24.809
moving soon. I need to. I need to move. Yeah.
00:48:26.190 --> 00:48:29.690
I am currently living with my mom while I'm in
00:48:29.690 --> 00:48:32.610
school, but I don't know where I'm ending up.
00:48:33.170 --> 00:48:36.210
But my goal is very simply is just to be able
00:48:36.210 --> 00:48:38.570
to figure out who I am more, you know, to be
00:48:38.570 --> 00:48:41.440
able to learn from. different mistakes or stuff
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:43.380
that come along the way. The thing I love about
00:48:43.380 --> 00:48:45.860
life the most is when you fail and when you make
00:48:45.860 --> 00:48:47.500
mistakes, because I think that's where you learn
00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:52.280
the most, honestly. Oh, I agree. Agreed. 100%.
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:55.480
And that's the same across the board. Doesn't
00:48:55.480 --> 00:48:57.039
matter if you were in a cult, not in a cult.
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.340
Doesn't matter if you're gay or straight. Life
00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:04.159
is a learning journey. David, I can't thank you
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:07.900
first for inviting me on your podcast, because
00:49:07.900 --> 00:49:11.679
we would not have met otherwise. And so thank
00:49:11.679 --> 00:49:14.539
you for that. And this was meant to be because
00:49:14.539 --> 00:49:17.980
you invited me and then for a dating podcast.
00:49:18.460 --> 00:49:22.500
the cult came out of you and in discussion and
00:49:22.500 --> 00:49:25.880
then here you are and you know the circle completes
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:28.719
or maybe I don't know I feel like there's still
00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:32.719
one more triangle whatever more polygon yeah
00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:35.900
yes thank you it was very good to meet you and
00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:38.139
thank you Andrew for doing some of the recruiting
00:49:38.139 --> 00:49:41.679
yeah so it worked out really good it was a good
00:49:41.679 --> 00:49:45.340
episode we appreciate it pleasure yeah all right
00:49:45.340 --> 00:49:47.699
we'll talk to you soon David okay thank you so
00:49:47.699 --> 00:49:51.519
much You're welcome. Thank you. We want to thank
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:54.159
David so much for coming on the show and sharing
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:57.000
his story with us. Wow, Andrew, you did a good
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.599
job. That was a good recruit. Andrew did good.
00:50:00.699 --> 00:50:02.920
That was a good episode. It was actually my first
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:06.659
time. I think since day one, I've always opened
00:50:06.659 --> 00:50:11.360
up the podcast. So yeah, it was fun. Yes. A little
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.820
different. Yes, and you know we talked about
00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:16.940
this a little bit off mic, but I was a little
00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:20.820
surprised that But that he was getting as emotional
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:23.340
as he was because I Figured kind of with his
00:50:23.340 --> 00:50:25.420
own podcast that he must talk about this all
00:50:25.420 --> 00:50:27.860
the time and he's been doing his deconstructing
00:50:27.860 --> 00:50:29.960
But it sounds like he doesn't dive deep into
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:33.940
his past or you know his experience with his
00:50:33.940 --> 00:50:37.380
religion very much on his current podcast so
00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:40.820
when I When he interviewed me on his podcast,
00:50:41.420 --> 00:50:44.900
and at some point there was, I forget whether
00:50:44.900 --> 00:50:47.739
it was on micro or off micro, when I found out
00:50:47.739 --> 00:50:49.820
that he said, when he heard that I had a cult
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:52.099
podcast, he opened up to me and he goes, oh,
00:50:52.099 --> 00:50:55.000
I was in a cult. And we talked a little bit about
00:50:55.000 --> 00:50:56.579
it and there was a little, I could tell he got
00:50:56.579 --> 00:51:00.219
emotional then. So apparently he's, when I just
00:51:00.219 --> 00:51:02.400
asked him at the end, are you, where are you
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.469
in your deconstruction? He's not done yet. obviously
00:51:05.469 --> 00:51:09.449
no no he's 27 which means that two -thirds of
00:51:09.449 --> 00:51:13.179
his life he's spent in in the orthodox community,
00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.440
which really fucked with his head. It really
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:17.760
did, if you think about it. And on throw on top
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.679
of that, at the age of 14, 15, 16, when the adolescent
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.760
hormones are spinning around our bodies, females
00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:27.739
and males, and the girls are looking at boys
00:51:27.739 --> 00:51:29.639
and boys are looking at girls, all of a sudden,
00:51:29.900 --> 00:51:34.780
you throw in the gay person who is conflicted
00:51:34.780 --> 00:51:37.420
and confused and doesn't know how to feel because
00:51:37.420 --> 00:51:41.420
his feelings are not like the guy's. I can only
00:51:41.420 --> 00:51:44.460
imagine. Then you add in there the separation
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:47.340
that they added in there, where the boys and
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:51.219
the girls are separated. And he was also not
00:51:51.219 --> 00:51:52.940
with his parents. I mean, there was so much going
00:51:52.940 --> 00:51:57.400
on with him. The fact that, and to the audience
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.920
in case anybody, which sometimes we get people
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:04.820
that say things either in social media. pointed
00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:07.300
out that he was getting emotional for a reason.
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:10.780
And we don't video these sessions. We would like
00:52:10.780 --> 00:52:14.000
to, for technical reasons, and also for anonymity
00:52:14.000 --> 00:52:16.460
reasons, we don't video because we want to hide
00:52:16.460 --> 00:52:19.599
the guest's identity many times. Some guests
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.179
would like to be on video. The point is, is that
00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:25.539
since day one, you've heard me talk about watching
00:52:25.539 --> 00:52:28.659
the body language of our guests, and I can see
00:52:28.659 --> 00:52:32.300
the discomfort that they're in. And again, tonight,
00:52:32.500 --> 00:52:36.650
David was... clearly having some moments of discomfort.
00:52:37.650 --> 00:52:42.070
And that tells me how serious it was for them
00:52:42.070 --> 00:52:45.550
and how far they're along in their deconstruction
00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:48.449
process. So David, thank you so, so much for
00:52:48.449 --> 00:52:50.809
coming on and sharing that vulnerability with
00:52:50.809 --> 00:52:54.429
us tonight. For sure. Yes. There was a lot of
00:52:54.429 --> 00:52:56.769
emotion there. You can tell, like you said, he's
00:52:56.769 --> 00:52:59.949
definitely still in that process of deconstructing.
00:53:00.269 --> 00:53:03.380
And I think that You know, the fact that he wanted
00:53:03.380 --> 00:53:06.219
to come on the show and share tells me that he
00:53:06.219 --> 00:53:08.280
wants to talk about this, even though it's hard.
00:53:08.340 --> 00:53:10.880
And that's what he did. And we appreciate that.
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.340
And we know it wasn't easy for him. So David,
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:15.519
thank you once again for coming on the show and
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:18.480
sharing your story with us. And as always, thank
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.739
you to all of you for tuning in to Kultumatum.
00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:23.440
We appreciate your support and our mission to
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:25.880
expose the truth and highlight the voices of
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.780
survivors. OK, before we continue with the outro,
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:32.039
we did say we were going to do this. As of today's
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:37.440
recording, which is July 2nd, the DA of Michigan
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:41.119
and Melody, help me out here, issued arrest warrants
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:44.820
for Jeff and Shalya from the Twin Flames universe.
00:53:45.460 --> 00:53:48.360
And it was announced, I think maybe yesterday.
00:53:49.260 --> 00:53:51.800
By the time you hear this, it'll be a month old
00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:54.480
and maybe old news or you guys will know all
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.860
about it. This cold podcast would be would be
00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:03.159
remiss if we did mention that Because as everybody
00:54:03.159 --> 00:54:06.159
knows I have been after twin flames for years
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.039
and I am I cannot wait to see what these arrests
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:13.349
warrant and and you know, what the charges are
00:54:13.349 --> 00:54:15.269
going to be. I think it was at this time, just
00:54:15.269 --> 00:54:19.150
search warrants were executed on Tuesday, Tuesday,
00:54:19.190 --> 00:54:22.989
July 1st, by multiple branches of law enforcement,
00:54:23.349 --> 00:54:25.929
including AG special agents, the U .S. Department
00:54:25.929 --> 00:54:29.030
of Labor Office of the Inspector General, Michigan
00:54:29.030 --> 00:54:31.929
and Michigan State Police, and by members of
00:54:31.929 --> 00:54:34.389
both the Leonel County and Grand Traverse County
00:54:34.389 --> 00:54:37.409
Sheriff's Office. So multiple branches. How long
00:54:37.409 --> 00:54:40.030
have I been bitching and moaning, when is law
00:54:40.030 --> 00:54:41.219
enforcement going to do something? something
00:54:41.219 --> 00:54:45.139
and now they have finally did something. And
00:54:45.139 --> 00:54:48.139
I just can't wait to find the outcome. So hopefully
00:54:48.139 --> 00:54:51.099
we'll keep you updated. If you haven't, if anybody
00:54:51.099 --> 00:54:54.079
listening, if you're interested, I would imagine
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:55.840
that we're not going to be your source of news,
00:54:56.260 --> 00:54:59.360
but you'll find, you'll, you'll know before we
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:02.480
do, but we do post in our Facebook groups. And
00:55:02.480 --> 00:55:04.820
so as we get the news, we'll, we'll pass it on
00:55:04.820 --> 00:55:08.519
to you. Oh, I just want to do one shout out.
00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:10.360
I want to do a shout out to my neighbor who sent
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:12.820
me the link. She was the first one to tell me.
00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:16.559
Stacey, thank you so much for sending that my
00:55:16.559 --> 00:55:19.300
way and keeping us apprised of what was going
00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:21.480
on. So we appreciate that. Well, if we're going
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.840
to go down that road this morning, Melody texted
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:27.980
me, you're not going to believe this. My neighbor,
00:55:28.179 --> 00:55:30.380
Stacey, just found this and she gave it to me.
00:55:30.380 --> 00:55:32.960
She knew that I would be excited and I was at
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:43.000
work and I could barely What's the word? I ran
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.280
into the bathroom to read the news article and
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.360
try to figure out like, wow, what's going on
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:52.780
here? More on the Twin Flames as that unfolds.
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:55.099
If you are enjoying the show, don't forget to
00:55:55.099 --> 00:55:57.760
rate. and review us on Apple and Spotify. And
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don't forget to follow, share, and keep listening
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to all of our latest episodes. You can also follow
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00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:13.619
where we dive deeper into these important topics.
00:56:13.699 --> 00:56:15.619
And if you are a cult survivor and you're looking
00:56:15.619 --> 00:56:17.519
for additional support, we recommend joining
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:20.000
the Cult Escape and Recovery Group on Facebook.
00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:22.440
If you're interested in more of my work, check
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:25.539
out my other two podcasts, Digital Dating, where
00:56:25.539 --> 00:56:28.300
I unpack the complexities of relationships in
00:56:28.300 --> 00:56:31.719
today's world, and the Weekend Rant podcast,
00:56:31.820 --> 00:56:35.099
where I tackle life's frustrations with no filter.
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:40.400
That's what I'm going to say. And if you have
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:43.360
a story related to cults or human trafficking
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:45.320
that you would like to share with us, you can
00:56:45.320 --> 00:56:48.380
feel free to email us at cultsamadampodcast .com.
00:56:48.980 --> 00:56:51.900
Want to support the show? You can help us cover
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or 10 bucks to the show. Believe me, a little
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bit helps. It goes a long way. And thank you
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:08.050
to those who have already. And as always, stay
00:57:08.050 --> 00:57:10.690
safe, stay informed, and remember, you are not
00:57:10.690 --> 00:57:10.909
alone.