The Wailing (2016)

Johnny Shaw: it feels like a bad thing. It feels like if you're putting a dead bird in someone's soy sauce, you're an asshole.
Jay: I'm gonna get the show title right today.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, this could be the first one. It might be, if we if it's good. If if you
Jay: If we don't screw it up.
Johnny Shaw: know, we don't fuck it up.
Jay: Well watch this. So welcome to Crowd Peasons.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah. it's like a well it's like a well crafted Swiss clock.
Jay: Straight away Straight away All right
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, yeah.
Jay: Welcome to Cloud Cloud, please.
Johnny Shaw: It we're we're gonna end up being like clown pissers and it's gonna it's it's just that's gonna stick and we're just gonna have to go with that that niche audience.
Jay: That will be a t-shirt. Alright. Welcome to Crowd Pleasers, the podcast about B movies. The only podcast about B movies. We invented the idea of B movies. I'm Jay, this is Johnny. And we're here to talk about the 2016 South Korean horror movie The Wailing. and I think we're both gonna have a lot to talk about with this movie. before we we get into anything, I always like to set a little bit of context. It's a bit Trickier with quote unquote foreign films, you know, non UK, non Hollywood movies. we kind of have to talk about a broader context. But 2016, in Hollywood terms, we're like at this point, we're deep in the middle of of the modern franchise, Disney basically, era. the big movies that year were Captain America Civil War, Rogue One, Finding Dory, the Jungle Book. Batman versus Superman Dawn of Justice, which doesn't really seem like it should belong on any list of big films, but nevertheless, technically it was. There was a Fantastic Beasts movie, there was a Deadpool movie, there was a Suicide Squad movie. Kung Poo Panda 3. I think most importantly, and and this is why we all love this year, I think, is that when it comes to to Hollywood that year, this was the year of the Moonlight La La Lan mix-up at the Oscars, which will Always be one of the finest things to ever happen to anybody ever.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, and all of those films have literally no connection to this. Like it's
Jay: Not at all.
Johnny Shaw: like it can it doesn't even feel like it's in the same medium.
Jay: None at all. Which is it I'm gonna come back to that a little bit because I think I think it's kind of relevant to why I partly why I probably love the movie so much. but yeah, so you know, we've talked about the big movies, La La Land and Moonlight were kind of the you know, Manchester by the Sea. It was kind of that that year. when it comes to to South Korean movies, another bunch of great movies. the the the biggest movie in South Korea that year was Train to Busan. So
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, fantastic.
Jay: You know, it's it's a great year for it. A Violent Prosecutor, which I've seen and is good. The Age of Shadows, which I've seen and is good.
Johnny Shaw: That's very good.
Jay: The Master, which I haven't seen. and then The Wailing, The Wailing was one of the big movies that year. there we go. Context.
Johnny Shaw: Just it just shows you the audiences in Korea are just more discerning and more in willing to do things that are more interesting. one of the things I think is
Jay: Did we just
Johnny Shaw: interesting about this, if I can jump in, I don't is that I think from a lot of people's point of view, they would say because this movie is so good, so well made. that it isn't a B movie. And I have my argument for that is for Christ's sake, almost any horror movie is a a B movie. I mean almost any horror movie is it's already it's already a niche audience kind of movie. But more than that, as we're both crime writers, we were both genre writers, you write more in more genre than I do. that it's that it feels to me like it'd be one of those things where someone writes a straight genre book and then it's so good or it's so refined that in our in our business, the literati, the literary fiction people start to try to claim that author. Like and and it goes in that direction, Daniel Woodrell or somebody like that, or James Sallas, where they're they're clearly genre writers, but they're just doing it at a level that is poetic or original. Not the the bullshit Jonathan Letham direction, which is which I I got about an hour on Motherless Brooklyn I could do that I mean I do not like that book. that's the most slumming book that I can think of. but it's it's if the Wailing to me, and it's not I don't think it cost a lot, but it's all on the screen. It plays to the genre It leans into the genre in some places. And it's just remarkably well made with depth. And it's by so by our definition, or at least by my definition, it's for sure a B movie. I just think that a lot of people are using the word B movie in a very different way. And we continue to c talk about that week to week. That This is a perfect example of our definition of a P movie. Or mine. I I cannot gonna speak for you.
Jay: well yeah, I I I think and this is something we might as well talk about this now and then we'll get back to the movie a bit. one of the very first things we did for this project was we recorded an episode that won't go out where we kind of defined the B movie for each of us. And you w we had some agreements and some differences. And I think one of the areas where I've actually moved to where you are is that very idea. I think I had a certain I had a more rigid idea in some ways about I was just looking about like the historical evolution of a B movie, about it's it it meant this thing in this time and this thing in this time and this thing and this time. It was down to function, right? It was down to the function of of of the B movie. And you had I more ideas like this. and I think over the episodes that we've recorded out of order, that the listeners will get to, or have gotten to or will get to, I've just moved very quickly to where you are, basically, on on this. It's it's a looser, it's a broader definition, but it fits. And and the I think the as you were saying that, the first name that popped into my head was Woodrell,
Johnny Shaw: But
Jay: Just a and and Sallas, but but yeah, well I guess I mean Sallas has a Ryan Gosling movie, you know. But but yeah, it was just that very first thing of like, yep, that's exactly what this is, but but for horror, but it it it's exactly what that is. I still don't quite agree that every horror movie is a B movie just because I think there are th there are those B mov there are those horror movies that make the mistake of trying too hard not to be one or
Johnny Shaw: no, I think there are I think there are horror movies that are like and particularly in the modern era in the last twenty years where the studios like something like weapons would be hard to call a B movie. And even in the past, something like The Exorcist or the nineties remake of Godzilla. Like horror has been is is much more a a part of mainstream pop culture now where it wasn't up until probably this millennia.
Jay: I really wish at some point we c there's no way to fit the nineties Godzilla in. And plus actually no, because if we did it, it would be doing it for the wrong reasons. And we are not we are not a podcast podcast of the wrong reasons when it comes to to doing these movies. but it would be fine one day to just break our rules and get drunk and do the night Godzilla.
Johnny Shaw: We could do we could do we could pick the ones that we enjoy slamming. I don't like I got there's tons like again, I would I will do a whole episode on the book Motherless Brooklyn because it's our podcast and we can do whatever we want. And if you like it, that's even better because you that would just show
Jay: no, no no.
Johnny Shaw: you how absolutely wrong you are.
Jay: Which is the one where the boy gets the magic ring? That's a that's a leftham, right?
Johnny Shaw: I'm sure it's good because the the problems with it are that yeah, I'm not again we're it's no way we have so much to talk about.
Jay: So The Wailing 2016. we also like to talk about how we first found move the movies, encountered the movies. Now I'm actually I actually have a hard time with this one. I'm it seems like the older movies we do, I have very clear memories of when I came to them, how I came to them, where it fits into my development. The more recent we get, the more I'm just like, I don't know, I i i it it came out any year and I watched it. You know. for me I think I may have even watched this on a recommendation from you or Or maybe you recommended the Yellow Sea to me and I watched the Yellow Sea and then watched the next thing he did. It somewhere in there I think. So so wha do you have a memory of how you encountered this?
Johnny Shaw: yeah, the the the I I I'm a huge fan of the Yellow Sea. It's in my top ten thousand movies. that's a Frankie Boyle joke. it's it's the Yellow Sea is one of my favorite not Korean movies, not it's just one of my favorite movies. The Yellow Sea is an incredible crime movie by Nahong Na Hong Jin, the director. and it's the one I think he did directly previous to this. So I was a big fan of the Yellow C and then I heard he was making this horror movie. And I was living in Portland at the time and my wife was she had a booth at a thing called the Portland Saturday Market where she sold her art on Saturdays and Sundays and I helped out. And so I heard this was playing and it was playing downtown, which is where she was, and I would so I would go down there and I would set help her set up the booth. and then I would have like three hours I'd go right and then I'd like give her a break at lunch. And so but I sa it opened on Friday at the movie theater and so I went there on Saturday and saw the first matinee on my break from helping Roxanne and there were three of us in the movie theater because you know it's a Saturday Saturday matinee of a Korean, a two and a half hour Korean. You know, it was a nice day, and that doesn't always happen in Portland. so like everyone's outside getting high. and so yeah, so I remember distinctly seeing this movie when it came out and then having it's it's one of the best movies to watch because I I really like the moment when you go to the movies and y it's either you went in when it was light out and you come out when it's dark.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: But in this case, going in when it's light, the movie is very dark, and then you come out into the sunlight and it's like you it's like waking from a dream. It's like you're like,
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: yeah, this is what real this is real life. Like have you ever passed out? Like passed out from like I I passed out from an injury or something. I remember like there's this moment when you wake up, like your brain just kind of keeps going. Like it doesn't you don't know it's happened that you pass that. You go like kind of fluidly into a dream state. But then when you wake up, it's been mimicking the sense senses and now all of a sudden you see your senses. And I swear every time it's like because I've fallen off a lot of roofs, every time I wake up, it's like, my entire life has been a lie. This is the planet of the apes. Like I I don't know what's ha I don't know what reality is anymore. For like ten seconds it's sheer panic because of this odd disassociative thing. And so that was my experience with whaling. Walking out and then being in the real world, feeling like I was on another planet.
Jay: see I watched this. I rented it. so it would have been a little while after it it was came out. I don't even know if it if it had a th I mean it would have had a UK theatre release, but I don't know if had one near me. probably GFT I'm sure probably sh maybe would have showed it. But I rented it as soon as I could for home r for home release. But this was a time I would usually watch movies like this. there's no way my wife was gonna watch them. the this would be a movie that she would go to bed And then I would sit and watch a movie. So my experience of watching it was watch this thing in the dark after midnight. Get to the ending and just
Johnny Shaw: That's also very good.
Jay: Just sit on the sofa on my own feeling things. Mostly confusion and fear. A sense of panic.
Johnny Shaw: that's really good. That's a good one. I remember watching Halloween for the first time, and I grew up on a farm in the middle of nowhere in a house that
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: makes a lot of noise. And I was alone in that I was I was old enough. I was like fourteen or fifteen, like but I was watching it alone and I swear it's it was probably the like TV cut of it. It was probably like on TV, like not
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: even like with commercials and like the non skin and I was I was Freaked out. I sat on the couch holding a sword. That's what I did.
Jay: I I remember the first time I heard the War of the Worlds musical. I was about nine, I think. And I like I'm a latch key generation kid, so you know, the the junior school wasn't that far from home, but I would I would walk home. and my you know my parents would just get in whenever they got in from work. and I remember one day like a kid at school had this cassette and he's like, this is amazing. We we went back to mine and listen we were listening to it, but then there was just something and I can remember the bit, but I think it's like the bit when the vines are meant to be growing or crawling or something, and there's this really kind of menacing bassy bit. And then the ooh la happens and I just remember freaking out on having like and then my because I was freaking out, my friend was freaking out, or the other way around. One of us was really freaking out and the other one then freaked because of it. And then we're both like, we we we need to leave the house. I don't know why we thought going outside was
Johnny Shaw: Yeah.
Jay: safer, but then we both stood and went and waited out in the street until my parents came home and they were like, What's like what's up? And then we were like, Martians. Scary Martians Just There was just something
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, like a presence had taken over the house. Yeah.
Jay: about that oolar when it was just the moment and the sound and me being eight, I guess, or nine. I was just like, I I I can't I'm I'm done. I need I'm I'm I'm terrified right now. and yeah, the whaling kind of did that to me.
Johnny Shaw: I th those those early cause I didn't go come to horror until way later, like until I was a teenager. Young. I remember listening to my dad had a lot of like radio drama stuff on vinyl, radiola they would put out these like, you from the thirties and forties and there was like a horror story called Valley of the Bats. Which is just like an expedition goes into this, and it's obviously gonna be vampires. And it's it it ter like I was like nine and it's you know, it's radio drama. So that's all your imagination. That's actually kind of in a way worse. God, I would
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: listen to that now. I'd be curious. I think William Conrad
Jay: My uncle's had to.
Johnny Shaw: did a voice Ironsides. but yeah, those early horror they shape you and definitely shape like how you Kind of come to it later.
Jay: We should talk about a movie.
Johnny Shaw: if you want to try to encapsulize the plot of this, good luck. Have at it.
Jay: I think what what I need to do what I need to do, I think I need to have two goes at this because I've seen this movie so many times now. I think I have a pretty good handle on it. But
Johnny Shaw: no no, I mean I'm I mean conveying it to someone else. I think you could just do an overview. I don't think you have to go scene to scene to scene to try to like weaken pick outsy because it's it's
Jay: Yeah, it cause 'cause I think the very f when I first watched it, I didn't really understand most of what was going on except on a some kind
Johnny Shaw: Mm-hmm.
Jay: of primal fear level, I understood it, you know. and so was just terrified and confused and mixed up by the ending and then just sat there in the dark for a while feeling things. That version of me wouldn't be able to give you an overview of what happened. Like now I can.
Johnny Shaw: G no, it made a lot more sense to me this time. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you on that.
Jay: Yeah. And that 'cause now I'm looking at it structurally as well. I'm seeing things that are telegraphed and you and and now that I've got a firm grip pretty I think the director might listen to me and say, No, no, no, no, dear boy. but okay, so in very broad terms, we we're dealing with a small town in in in South Korea, which actually interestingly, and I don't want to try and say the name of the town 'cause I mean I'm to try and be respectful, I'm kind of avoiding saying names quite a lot in this episode 'cause I would I'd screw up all the pronunciation. but the the name of the town is real. It's a real place, the the village. and the name actually translates as whale. So then obviously for international release they they turned it into the whaling, which isn't quite the same
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: thing, but it's a fun play on words. so in this so I'm just gonna call the town whale. So in in this town or village, if you like, well whale, in in South Korea, weird stuff starts happening. people start kind of dying and acting like they're possessed, a little bit zombie-ish in in ways. a lot of people in town are spreading rumors about this old Japanese man who lives in the woods. you know, kind of is it just fear of foreigner? Is it racism? there's a cop who's investigating it. And the first half of the movie is a little bit of a kind of horror-ish procedural as this cop investigates these weird goings on, and this old man and various other characters who we'll get to show up along the way. And then the second half of the movie is very much a kind of full on intense dim demonic possession, black magic kind of thing, where the cop's daughter is now seemingly possessed, and we now are pretty sure that the old Japanese man is also a villain. It's not just racism. and then a shaman turns up and promises to. lift the the the possession, but we don't know whether he's a good guy or a bad guy. And then there's this very secretive enigmatic woman in white walking around who's also making random promises but never explaining herself and we we kind of we've got a a push and pull as to which the shaman or the woman in white which one should we and which one should the cop be believing. And The cop is getting descending more and more into violence and brutality and shit's just getting worse and worse and worse and worse until an ending that freaked the hell out me and continues to freak me out to this day. Does that make sense?
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think it's I think it's the idea that at the beginning it's the investig in the investigation of a number of killings, even though the killings are are generally they know who did it, but it's usually one family member like killing the rest of the family and stuff like that, and or and then hanging themselves. There's all sorts of for one town too much stuff happening. and then it becomes almost right at the halfway point. a little before that basically the exorcist the that the his daughter is for sure possessed and then it becomes a battle for her soul in a way. And and who to who to trust within this Yeah, within the supernatural powers of the people around them and who is even involved is it or how much is suspicion. There's so much about kind of faith and doubt throughout this thing.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: And there's there's I don't know a lot about Korean like religion or folklore. I know they have, like most Asian cultures have, a very dense demonology. within there, like that there's there's so there's stuff happening there, but there's also a lot of Christian stuff in here that is very I mean, including a
Jay: Very Christian. Very
Johnny Shaw: Bible it opens with a Bible quote and ends with the same quote.
Jay: Yeah. And and th and and and to go back to that because that's I think rewatching it, the more the more firm a g a grip I get on it, like that the the Bible quote, it's like the Bible quote has basically become to anyone who's watched the prestige, the top act at the beginning of the movie, you know, when when Christopher Nolan's like, ha ha ha, look, here's the answer. You just won't get it for two hours. The Bible quote the bigger than this movie, the more you watch it, you're like, I know exactly what they're doing. I know exactly what they're doing. so the b the Bible quote essentially for anyone who's listening. I said for anyone who's listening is if there might be someone listening. I mean, you know, hopefully, that's the aim, right?
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, like, you know, I don't even listen to the whole thing.
Jay: This message in a bottle that we're throwing out. it's from Luke. It's from Luke and it's I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but the the the key bit I think for really kind of understanding the film, I think. i is is look at my hands and feet, it is I myself. It's basically a bit when Jesus is like, Look, you you know, touch my wounds, you you know, you know who I am. interesting sight notes.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, it's the res it's the resurrection. It's the it's Luke twenty four. So if anyone's interested.
Jay: Interesting side note. there's a there's a growing there's a growing n niche but growing group within the the kind of biblical studies academia who who think that the the gospels and that era of the Bible were heavily influenced by the Odyssey. and so the bit of to this to this to this thought it's not main sh it's not not everyone agrees with this yet, but I like it. to this thought of the whole touch my wounds, touch my feet that is that that's that's That's lifted from Odysseus coming home and people knowing who he is because of his wounds. that's it's a parallel of people have spotted, basically. most irrelevant 'cause we're recording this in a year when s you know, Christopher Nolan has
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, yeah. he's made it important. Before then it wasn't. Meant nothing to no one. It's just a just a just a garbage thing. Right, there you go. Yeah, yeah.
Jay: Meant nothing at all. Meant nothing at all. No. No. It was just an old 80 cartoon before that, with the best theme tune of all time. And I'm not gonna sing it because then anyway. and so immediately after the quote in the movie, we in back to the whaling, immediately in the quote, look at my hands and feet, it is I myself, we see an old we see the old Japanese man sitting on the banks of the river, fishing, putting a worm on a hook. and casting it out into the into the water. And then on with the story. So you're
Johnny Shaw: Right, meaning nothing to us. Mm I think everyone ninety nine percent of people forget that moment even happened. Because there's no it's
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: the it's just it's just an opening image of an idyllic, beautiful place. Because this is shot beautifully. so you get
Jay: and yeah, we we need to come back to her.
Johnny Shaw: these wide landscapes of this, you know, kind of mountainous or hill I yeah, in a mountainous area. Anyway, so yeah, but
Jay: Absolutely going.
Johnny Shaw: that this the story is incredibly integrated. It's almost everything from the beginning, the worm on the hook, the brass, the mushroom everything kinda comes back. It like it's all very connected. it's incredibly well constructed while at the same time purposefully ambiguous and deliberately ambiguous. It's like it wanted like a giant like Reddit discussion about this movie. Like it's it I think I I think it's pretty clear what the movie edits the basic like kind of plot points are about or how it plays out. But it it does a it's is it's how you do ambiguity. You know, it's you allow the the viewer to be a participant in kind of deciding what happened, yet you feel like you're in good hands where the person that made it, they have a clear idea of what's happening. And it's not just
Jay: Yeah. And so I'll
Johnny Shaw: lost or something where it's just like pulled out of your ass.
Jay: Yeah. We have an answer, guys. We have an answer. We're just not gonna tell you what it is and then we're gonna and then we're gonna and then we're yeah, let's talk.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, yeah. It's well you can tell when something is made up as it goes versus when something is constructed. And everything at the beginning of this has like a mirror in the in the second in the second half. Like everything kind of comes back, everything that is deliberate in there for a purpose, even if it's small. and so if you watch it, it's really great for a second viewing.
Jay: And fourth and fifth and sixth. I think to I think today well yesterday I think was my sixth or maybe my seventh. 'cause I just the the movie like it just speaks to me of this movie. I think part of what speaks to it I I'll come back to this 'cause I do want to stick to the the de I think it might be easier just to give people something to latch on to t stick to a minute for what I think is the definitive like what is the plot, right? And then talk about like the ambiguity and all what I loved about it. But yeah, th I I th I come back to this movie because it's like it's resonant. but yeah, so you've the the those opening two shots, the the quote and the and and the bit with the hook, 'cause then as you said, like not only not only is it mirrored at the end, but almost like the last two shots of the like the ending is basically that reverse but in a slight the old man's different now.
Johnny Shaw: right, in the middle someone literally says he's he's a fishing, you know, he's a fisherman. Like it it's like it's y and you're like, yeah,
Jay: Casting out to see what you get.
Johnny Shaw: that guy you know.
Jay: And then so the the ending we see him as a literal demon. Is that is that l but is that literal? Is it not literal? But we see him as a demon. And then the quote again, you know.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah.
Jay: there is a deleted ending. I don't know if you've seen it. there's a there's an ending that they didn't go with.
Johnny Shaw: Irrelevant.
Jay: 'cause 'cause that does answer certain questions pretty definitively. And I'm glad they didn't go with it. I'm I'm glad they they
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, yeah, no, it may it it makes it irrelevant. Like it's I d I can't stand when people this was in the book, this was in the no, no. This i what if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage. Like it if it like it this
Jay: Yeah, yeah.
Johnny Shaw: is the movie we wal like no, there there was there's so many ways you could make this less ambiguous, you know. That be the the easy route. I think they shot you could shoot the whole, like everything makes sense, there's a tons of exposition. And then just chip that away until you have something beautiful. I mean that's and
Jay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: it's you know and paste, like the you know, it's two and a half hours and it's it's
Jay: You don't feel it.
Johnny Shaw: taking its sweet ass time, but it's captivating.
Jay: I don't yeah, I don't feel it. I don't feel the two and a half hours. it just for me it it flies in. so in terms of un and so what what do I think is happening? and I don't think I'm wrong. so the possessions are happening, the town is being taken over by this this demon who's turned up and is as has is said in the movie, is shown in the movie, is Is fishing for something, is seeing what he can get, and he keeps finding things, you know, that they keep people keep biting. then obviously the shame the the shaman, the shaman who turns up is working with him. is is like a con man working with him. the the enigmatic woman in white. The very first time we see her, she's she's she's casting stones. She's casting stones, and this is a Christian movie.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, no, that did not go un that did not go unnoticed.
Jay: So and so that's the point I think I keep coming back to the quote because the quote for the beginning of the movie is basically it's almost the movie's saying, Look, we are showing you the truth. Right? The movie's saying, Look, look at my wounds. It's like we are showing you the truth. We're just showing you what's happening. the everyone in the movie is showing you what's happening, just believe them. But we spend so much time wrapping ourselves up in ambiguity and questions. But but the movie has said to us right from the beginning, look. Not only are we showing you what's what's happening, then the very next shot is gonna show you what's happening and then we're gonna keep telling you what's happening. then this woman dressed in white is gonna turn up and throw stones.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, I think that's clearly I yeah. I think that's clearly it. She's some sort of guardian, like for the you know, for the city or whatever, like she's some sort of an like angelic force or something. I I do like
Jay: And then towards the end of the movie.
Johnny Shaw: that the going back that the shaman is li it's it's nice that 'cause we go in and our idea is is the s is the shaman just like a huckster. And in this case, he's not a huckster. He's just working for the wrong side, which I think is just so much fun because it's usually the shaman would either be like there would be a point where he's just like, I don't know what's going on. I because I don't believe any of this stuff. Like, it's that like he's actually he realizes he's actually facing a demon and then runs away. But that's not where they went. He's just working with the demon.
Jay: And this is if I no, I'll come back to that. I'm gonna I'm gonna come back to that. Because just to wrap up my This this
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, sorry.
Jay: is this is definitely what's happening. The woman, the enigmatic woman and I'm gonna come back to the enigmatic things. god, we've got so much to talk about with this film all already. Towards the ending of the movie she's kinda saying to the cop, basically basically as as the cop is worried about the possession, like his his daughter's all in fully unpossessed near the end of the movie and the cop doesn't know what to do. He's he's trying to kill the old man, he's failing. It's kind of it's kind of one of those stories. We have those stories about the, you know, the average guy who's tested but rises to the challenge. And this is the other kind of story. This is an average guy who's tested and just does not rise to the challenge, which is way more realistic and scary. but she said to me
Johnny Shaw: He's a little below average too. Like off end like it's not like it's not even the average guy. He could have been average. Like and they they make sure he's not. Like he's a little like
Jay: He was aiming for average. He was aiming for average. but she's basically said to him, like don't like don't go home before the the crow, like you know, the the third the third
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: what would what we say? No cockerel. What's the chime crow? Cry. There we go.
Johnny Shaw: She says cry, I think is the translation, but we'd say like yeah the
Jay: Third the third cry of the of of the cockerel. Which again, that's the Bible. That's that's the guy being tested with with Jesus, like wait for the third one. and the the guy fails and goes goes home on the second one. and must you know, people be dead. His his daughter's done horrific things.
Johnny Shaw: I d we'll we're gonna come back to that because I have I have thoughts on that, but
Jay: Okay, so that so basic that's that's the movie, as far you know, I th I think it's
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's then and then and then it's a lot of like just set pieces and mood and you know, a zombie and then a guy getting hit by lightning. And there's all this other stuff stuff, which is why, yes, that was the way to do it. That the basic idea is weird stuff in the town. It starts to get more focused on his family and he fails miserably. I would argue through no fault of his own. I don't buy into the I don't buy into the the the woman in white's three crows thing. But anyway, that's just me.
Jay: Well I I I think I th what let's do that that bit now, 'cause I think that this is
Johnny Shaw: Okay.
Jay: what I have read up on the movies is that the director kinda went through a bunch of personal tragedies. had had a Christian background, or at some point went through a bunch of personal tragedies, and that this movie was him trying to figure that out. there is there is a priest or there's a deacon in the movie. There's a guy who turns up who clearly means well, he believes in in what he's
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: what he's saying, but is is way in over his head. So clearly the movie is saying the church doesn't have the answers, but at the same same time it's not saying that religion and man and and and magic are wrong. It's just saying that there's a level on which the church probably doesn't have the answers.
Johnny Shaw: Th beyond not having the answers, the church is powerless.
Jay: Yeah. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: I mean it literally is powerless in this movie. I I think this yeah. Go ahead, go ahead, finish.
Jay: I mean there's a bit w I was saying like j just to amplify to show that, like the there's a bit when the zombie's there and and and the deacon's actually stepping in telling people, Don't like stop hitting the guy, stop hitting the guy and then the zombie goes for him you know.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, bites his bites his face. That's what you get. That's what you get, priest. you get face bitten.
Jay: that that's what you get this increasement.
Johnny Shaw: I think I think there's a I think there's a very important kind of Eastern film, Western film thing happening. And this is far more noticeable in Japanese film Japanese horror, which is the idea of fate and destiny. There's in in a lot of Japanese horror It's just it's inescapable fate. That ring ringoo, the grudge. It's all you're doing is watching people running away from something that they're never gonna get away from, and then at the end it gets them. That it it which is so opposite of Western film where you in and to the point when they remake those, they feel odd.
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: they because it was it's always about seizing control of your own destiny. And I think he I think he plays with the idea that this guy can control his destiny from those three cro like he's he's being tested. And he's being told that it's his fault for going after the Japanese guy who he didn't go after until after his daughter started getting possessed. And he even says that. So everyone is telling them it's on his shoulders, even to the three crows, where the girl has already picked up the knife and killed. Them before the third. Like, unless there's some sort of time loop, no matter what he does, he's gonna go back to the same result. His fate is determined. He's being lied to throughout the thing about destiny. He doesn't kill the Japanese guy when he the Japanese guy just kind of falls on his truck, And then then he he gets rid of the body, which okay, bad on him. But like it it his he wanted to. Like I don't think he in this story because the the the woman in white helps zero. She has no help whatsoever. If you track what she does, she doesn't help at all. his fate is already determined. And I think they're playing like it's just they're playing this the it there's just theater in terms of him feeling like he has some sort of destiny. He can control the destiny, which I which I don't think he does. I don't think there's any point in the story where he can control it. I think that ending is inevitable.
Jay: I wanna come back to the fate thing in a second, 'cause that's interesting, and that's there's actually a note that I I forgot about that from the b the beginning of the movie that ties into that. but when it comes to the the like the crows and the woman, I th I think I think there's an element to which it's it kind of depends on someone's religious interpretation or bent the going into the movie. Like what what do you bring to it? 'Cause I think part of I I think w we're all you s you said powerless and you know but We're presented with a church that that doesn't have the answers and is powerless, right? but we're also presented with this figure who clearly is that kind of person, enigmatic guardian, it's demanding faith without ever rewarding the faith. I suppose we're meant to be like the guy well, he dies pretty soon after, but the the guy the the guy will never know if he'd waited for the third try, you know?
Johnny Shaw: Right, which is just just cruel. She's also using these Christian kind of allegory. Like she's using the Cassifer stones or the crows c so and we've been told that the church is pointless. Like that that she's she's basically saying I'm gonna use these church stuff, you know, that
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: we know the church is, you know, not gonna work. but we're I'm gonna it's she's not offering
Jay: Unless you separate out unless the movie's asking us con to consider separing out separating out church and church and our concept of religion and the rules from what the higher thing actually is. And and that she's representing the one that gives us no answers, no explanations, and then there's the organized
Johnny Shaw: Right, Jeff. Absolutely.
Jay: church that's like you know.
Johnny Shaw: I I have a question that will meet it it's a great question because if you haven't seen the movie, it will make no sense, but it'll also kind of make you want to watch the movie. Is
Jay: Well let's go with that.
Johnny Shaw: is who put the bird in the soy sauce?
Jay: Yes. Yes. And why?
Johnny Shaw: Who put who put the bird in the tub of soy soy sauce?
Jay: Yes.
Johnny Shaw: Or soya sauce. I'm sorry for you if you don't
Jay: and while we're at it, who killed the chauffeur in the big sleep? yes, I I mean it's it's one of the like every time I watch the movie I have a different answer to that question. is it the shaman, it's part of his con? Is it the old man and it's part of his possession? Is it
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: the guardian and it was a guardian and that's why the shaman spotted it and got rid of it? You know?
Johnny Shaw: It could simply be because we don't know Korean stuff, and that means something to a Korean audience, too. Like that, I
Jay: Could be. Yeah, it could be.
Johnny Shaw: mean, it could be just like that. That's like it would be a good like it feels like a bad thing. It feels like if you're putting a dead bird in someone's soy sauce, you're an asshole. So, like it's so it's like, okay, the bad guys obviously did it, but birds, chickens, and crows in particular play this big, huge role in. Story and who controls the birds. It seems to be the bad guys, which is also the three crows crow or the no, it's it's those are chickens crow. Or is it is it crows or chickens? Yeah, yeah,
Jay: Chickens.
Johnny Shaw: yeah. So either way, they're kind of being used by both of them.
Jay: Or Rooster, Rooster.
Johnny Shaw: I i in a way it's probably just to be honest, just a bit of a cheat. Like we'll never know because it's just it gives it makes the shaman feel like he knows what he's doing.
Jay: Yeah, yeah.
Johnny Shaw: Most likely the shaman put it in there or whatever, like and just to be like legit. Like it c it still feels like yeah, yeah.
Jay: And the movie doesn't want us to die. Every time we
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: Well, it like this this time round I I think I felt that the woman in right white did it and that that was why the shaman got rid of it quite quickly, because she's you know, and she's controlling the birds.
Johnny Shaw: Okay, I have another question for you. I think we c we'll get through the story through this series of questions. in the in the first in the first appearance of the woman in white, so she's throwing stones, they go to that kind of crime scene, right?
Jay: And he just lets her go and
Johnny Shaw: He is below average. You've got to like it he is consciously such a slump, like in this. Like he's just he just so okay. So she goes in and does that did that scene happen? Or is that a dream? It ends
Jay: I think that
Johnny Shaw: with him being attacked by the Japanese guy with the red eyes.
Jay: Yes. I think that the first half happens and the second half doesn't.
Johnny Shaw: So there's a break when he sees the Japanese guy. Somewhere in there there's a break.
Jay: think I I think the Japanese guy is like well I think that happens but that's the Japanese guy like invading them in a different way, you know? but I think that the woman in white bit and the crime scene happens. he phones the guy. He phones his pal.
Johnny Shaw: Okay, so there's yeah, so there's a point that part of that is real. or the Japanese guy did attack her and somehow the woman in white protected him and put him in bed. I mean, we it's it's the most
Jay: She's just she's just caring.
Johnny Shaw: mind fucky part of the story. 'Cause it's
Jay: Yeah, yeah.
Johnny Shaw: never gonna tell you and when you even when you go back and you've seen the whole thing and you kind of see what they're doing, there's never a clear explanation for for that. And again, it could just be a filmic cheat, but i it doesn't in that case it doesn't feel like it is because they haven't been doing a they they do dreams a little early because they're trying to it to me they're trying to establish tone. So we get bad dreams and we get people wake up, we get a lot of red eyes, we get a lot of like is the Japanese guy a demon? kind of stuff. And then we have to discern which is what did we see it, did they did we not see it? Are we seeing a point of view? Is it a dream?
Jay: 'Cause I I think up until the ending, I think the only time we see the ac the red eyes is in stuff that isn't really happening. You know, like 'cause the the first time we see it is in and I I wanna come back to this scene and the first time I is is a scene we're told very early on, but it's someone telling a story about
Johnny Shaw: Telling a story.
Jay: and then the s and then we see that bit which is you know so the effective the guy who was told that story then sees a very similar thing happen when he thinks he's being attacked by the guy. and sees the red eyes again. So I I to me that's it is the film cheating, but it's that we never I I don't think we see the red eyes in anything that's actually happening until the end. And then that's but then
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, and that's like
Jay: we have the question of is that actually?
Johnny Shaw: Right. It that that becomes like because that is someone telling a story, yet we see that guy in the hospital, and he might even have red eyes at some or he's definitely going through a thing.
Jay: Only going through a thing.
Johnny Shaw: Cody's really going through a thing. And we can't ignore That they made him a Japanese man, like which is that instant suspicion and I mean ninety percent of Korean films, the bad guy's Japanese. Like it it's just a good that's they there's still a lot of animosity there. okay, yeah,
Jay: So I want
Johnny Shaw: I was I was curious about that. Like because they're there those little cheats, or I'm I'm gonna call cheats and I don't really mean that, but like that there's a lot of imagery that they're giving and they're building mood and tone, the hanged woman and the And then once it hits the ground running, once you the demon comes in, and we hear the demon come in, but we don't know it. Another great sound cue, that weird crack in the ceiling. It's haunting. Yeah.
Jay: I mean the whole the sound in this movie and the just I'll I'm right, let's come back to the the technical stuff in a second. Before I
Johnny Shaw: Yeah. Okay.
Jay: do that, before we do that, I just wanted to go back to that first so the scene that we're talking about where someone's telling a story is really the first actually the second time we see the the the Japanese guy. We've seen him fishing, but then we've kind of the at least the first time you watch it, you're probably gonna instantly forget that 'cause we we move on with the story. The next time we see him There's a guy who who goes into the forest and sees like a dead deer, picks it up, is trying to get away with it for himself, and then he falls over. when he wakes up, there's this almost naked Japanese guy in the over like eating it for like ferociously with his bare teeth, just taking chunks out of it with his teeth. Then looks up and sees him, and we get a jump scare as he as he crawls over the rock towards him with his with his glowing red eyes. What I wanted to come back to there is if we believe that story happened, and it clearly did in some form, because as you said, we do see the guy in hospital, so so something happened.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, and we go we go back to the c the deer is there.
Jay: Yeah. So it could be time wise, we don't know, but it could be that's the very first thing that's happened in the story. It's just obviously it's effectively inciting incident, if you like, it could be. Now, again, because we don't know Korean superstition, Korean folklore, I don't wanna I don't wanna dismiss or or an but I also don't wanna be the c I'm I'm a classicist, but I don't wanna be the guy who makes everything about like ancient Greece. But what I do wanna say is given that that the the I didn't I didn't point out the Greek comparison at the beginning by accident. Here's another here's another school bit, guys. I didn't point out the Greek comparison in the Bible quote by accident. there's the ancient, there's basically the the the law, and there may be a Korean version of this, I don't know, so I presume there is. But there's ancient law in Greek culture, which the Odyssey comes out of, which the Iliad comes out of, of Xenia, which is about hospitality, and one of it is like don't steal, don't invade someone else's space and steal shit. And so chronologically, the very first thing that possibly happened is a guy from the village goes into the woods and tries to steal something from the woods or from the creature in the woods, and everything kicks off from there. So it it could in a sense be that that's the ini the original sin of the movie is like the the creature was in the woods, right? The creature was b wasn't bothering anybody, it was in the woods. unless the fishing bit happens before that, we don't know. happened before the fishing
Johnny Shaw: We we don't even know if the f the fishing bit happens, 'cause the fishing bit is almost feels like it's the same scene. The next time we see him after that is in another story, very, very briefly, where someone's telling
Jay: Right.
Johnny Shaw: a story in the diner and they just say he raped this woman. And we go to it and that's just like a
Jay: Yes. Yeah. Which is in the same location.
Johnny Shaw: like a two shot cut, but it's on the same it's in the same spot where he was fishing. Like it's so we you know, I I don't not necessarily that they happen at the same time, but that they They're definitely
Jay: Same yeah.
Johnny Shaw: trying to creating all of this kind of suspicion, but suspicion through rumor around the Japanese. It's really effectively done.
Jay: so that I mean that's my that's my question to anybody watching really about that. Flashback st story, whatever you want to call it, is is that the first thing that happens and so is is that the inciting incident? Is it the guy goes in and tries to steal a thick thing either from the woods which leads to the demon or from the demon in general? and that's what brings the demon into the town.
Johnny Shaw: Right. I mean that's that's the beauty of stories with the supernatural and and s and it's there's there's always gonna be some play. Like it feels like this is kind of fair play where like there there are some established rules even if we don't know what's going on. That's why saying it's like you feel like you're in good hands and they're just not making things up as they go. But we're never gonna you're never gonna know. You're never gonna know if it was just that guy just just so happened to get hit by lightning or someone it's control over the natural world. I mean nature and the natural world, this could not have been set in a city. It doesn't work in a city. It has
Jay: Yes. Nope.
Johnny Shaw: to be a rural rural story. And it's the natural world it's also the way the natural world is generally portrayed as terrifying to people from like anywhere. And this it like the natural world is untamed. And so that's where demons live. And that the further away from the town you go, the more likely it is for that person to be a demons don't live in town. They just don't live in town, they're not that social. So, like it it has this, and so the the way crows and chickens and the dog and someone getting struck by lightning, these big landscapes and mountains, they all play a role in the story, and it it becomes a story about. The natural world. And the natural world is where ghosts and demons also live, you know. And so the fact they the name of it of the stor the name of the movie is the name of the town. This is a story of the town that is in a way it's like poltergeist.
Jay: Yeah. A real town, a real town.
Johnny Shaw: They shouldn't have put it there. It could be just the location. which gives no indication why things are starting now because the Japanese guy comes in town. that it it is still even if people bothered him, the Japanese guy came into town. He he rolled into town and High Plains drifted it and then and and assumingly
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: he's gonna continue to just, you know, run roughshod over the rest of
Jay: He is.
Johnny Shaw: the town. Like there's no I don't think anyone did anything to deserve things. Like I think that this idea that that he did something, he confronted him and that's what caught like I think that I think it's the demon didn't need cause. He's fishing. He said it. The girl
Jay: I think that's a lie, yeah. I think that's a lie. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a lie.
Johnny Shaw: didn't do anything. The the little girl didn't do anything.
Jay: No. No. There's 'cause th I've learned that th there's there's one we we talked about a movie recently that I we I think I used to recommend and we've both come to point of being like, no, I wouldn't you know, it's not necessarily something you can recommend to someone. This is a movie that I've actually learned. I have to pick and choose who I recommend this to. Not because it's I mean, it's a brilliant movie. It's a brilliant movie. But the last time I recommended it, I sat and watched it with with with someone a writer who you'll know. and we w we were both kind of hanging out together. I sat and watched it with him. and at the end he j he just turned to me and he was like, No, I need like I I need some clearer morals and I need if bad things are gonna happen I need to know why they're happening. And I think it just ties into what you're saying is there's there are lies in the movie I think about this happened because you did this. And I think the movie's I think the movie's having a conversation about that. I think again it ties back to the director going through personal tragedies. I think the movie's having a conversation about we'll be told that things are happening for a reason, but they don't. The universe doesn't care. we're just worms on a hook.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, I I feel like it has a like it it is a kind of spiritual cousin to memories of murder. Like where it's just like which is a an amazing movie, a Korean movie, where they're investigating a crime and they I mean, spoiler alert, they just don't solve it. And partly because they're all kind of incompetent, like too. It's like It's it's almost this idea of just because you really, really want to, doesn't mean you have the ability to. And that is kind of the story here where it's like you purposely have this character who's kind of below average. He shows up to work late, he seems pretty lazy, doesn't seem particularly good at his job. Yeah, he just lets the woman kind of go to the crime scene and he's like kicking down doors. Like he's he's He doesn't really, he's he's not getting promoted anytime soon. And there I can think of a lot of Korean films where that's the case, where it's not even just like your average Joe. we should do Running Turtle. Have you seen Running Turtle? that
Jay: No, let's do it. Let's do it.
Johnny Shaw: is great. That is about this guy, this kind of cop, accidentally like messing with this assassin, and now he's just screwed. Like it's But he decides he's gonna go after him because the assassin like stole his gun or it's and he's just getting his a ass kicked for the whole movie. Like he's cause he's way in over his head. And he's got that belief, like, I'm on the side of good. I am on the side
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: of good, and I am the hero, thus Lee, I will win. And you're like, sorry, man, you're in Korea. But the like the the rituals, the the rival rituals scene where the sh the the shaman is performing a ritual, we think against the demon who's performing a ritual simultaneously in a different location and it's cut you know cut between them. In reality, my guess is the shaman is like kind of attacking the girl and the demon is reviving the zombie for unknown reasons.
Jay: this time round I was thinking that he that the the shaman is drawing the power from these living things in front of them and then the the demon is using that to redirect it is the way I was this time is the way I viewed it this time, is that it's all the same ritual. Power is being drawn that way directly.
Johnny Shaw: Okay, I could buy that. Like, I don't I know that I know that in the watching, we're meant to believe they're battling each other. So
Jay: Yes. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: that that is actually the reality when you're watching it, is regardless of what we learn later. That is definitely and it's incredible. and it's it's the point where like I don't think that guy is like a shyster. Like I don't think that guy is trying to like, you know, I think that guy is for sure like he he feels like he's in it. He's and all of a sudden he has like a team. There's drummers and there's the whole there's a whole crew with him and they and then they
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: they get the fuck out of Dodge.
Jay: they're just like a they're they're just like a local band in my head. And he's like and then
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: and then they and halfway through they're like, no, straight no no
Johnny Shaw: Like, hey man, a gig's a gig. You know, you take you t you take what you take what you can get, man. Like it
Jay: Like this or a wedding, man. It was this or a wedding.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah. That little girl is amazing in it. Child actors, it always feels like and maybe it's a language thing, maybe because I'm seeing it in subtitles and I don't know the cadence of their performance. I don't know if they're stiff or they're not or whatever. But that little girl's performance is equal parts innocent and terrifying. Her evil
Jay: She's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Johnny Shaw: face is so terrifying. It's and it's not makeup, it's just not she's not make she just has this like I'm gonna kill you stare. Like that's
Jay: Mm.
Johnny Shaw: a little bit like clockwork orangey, like it's a little bit of Kubrick, like a little
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: bit da head down, just staring. she is so good.
Jay: And this and and dear one listener, they this movie goes all in that kid kill people. just gonna I I've kept saying we're gonna come back to the technical stuff, so I just feel like just want should like the movie, it
Johnny Shaw: Go.
Jay: looks gorgeous. The depth of colours, the sound design with the rain and the you know, the the demon, the the crack. Like it's just it's just such a gorgeously put together film. We we're we're you know, we spend most of the episode talking about the meaning and the morals and the the message and the tone, but it's such a gorgeously put together film, the it's beautiful.
Johnny Shaw: It's a beautiful location, shot beautifully. It's a it's a widescreen move. Like it really feels like the the wide shots are are absolutely like gorgeous. and it uses again, because it's a story about the natural world, like you said, rain is is such an important part of it.
Jay: And it's kind of got that it's almost like a Pixies song, though it can be like quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet. And then when it goes intense, everything comes together, the sound design and everything. And then you've just got that man like like the pf like the the ritual. Like it just it just it can just suddenly go to one hundred, you know, and just goes there and
Johnny Shaw: Well
Jay: it's just
Johnny Shaw: it it's also there's the art direction, which is this it's it's not just it's rural. Like it's the people in this town are poor. There's no indication that that like all like when you look when you go into someone's like house and they might have space. That's one thing that happened. Like I grew up on a farm but I didn't have money, but we had a big house because you got land, you can make a big house. It's not like we had air conditioning or heat. like you can you just it's just more wood. so they like they have these almost kind of like ranches, like or whatever. They have you know, they have like this kind of little mini little plaza in the center that is a in their ho they're in a couple buildings, but everyone's house is it's modest, you know,
Jay: Mm-hmm.
Johnny Shaw: and they're it feels like people are poor, you know.
Jay: It manages to be both like like vast and broad and really claustrophobic at the same time. And think because of that, because we see pe that that people are living together are living like right on top of each other with no privacy, but then it's a huge, huge, vast spaces. it's
Johnny Shaw: And whenever there's when w whenever there's a T V playing it's a wildlife show. It is. Like
Jay: Yeah, I haven't noticed that.
Johnny Shaw: it's always a wildlife show on T V and it's usually lions. Like it's it's like lions and gazelles. Like it's
Jay: Just the natural order of things. There's predators and there's prey. And
Johnny Shaw: Right.
Jay: I mean th this movie's not saying don't be good. It's not saying that good and b good and good and bad are that you that there's no there's no difference between them. It is also just saying that the universe doesn't care whether you're good, or distinctly below average. you know, there's this there's no no moral lesson about how you should behave in this film. It's just saying it doesn't however you behave Bad things gonna happen to people for no reason. and I think deep down that paired with that that last shot of the demon, I have a thing about being looked at. So something that scares me in horror movies is
Johnny Shaw: Yeah.
Jay: when the th the thing looks at me, or at you know, at the at the at the person, you know. and just that last shot of the demon looking at us, really, just scared the hell
Johnny Shaw: Right, which
Jay: out of us.
Johnny Shaw: to me that's also a parallel of Memories of Murder offhand, which is how Memories of Murder ends, which is incredibly haunting. Basically it's the criminal saying I know the killer is still out there and he just turns and stares directly at the camera as if the killer is sitting in the movie theater with us, like
Jay: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: or that the killer is watching this movie, 'cause it was based on a real crime too.
Jay: Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: and so it has a yeah, it has these parallels to that. it but at the same time, the one thing that I will say, if you don't want to follow the story, if you don't want to say like, if you just say like, you know, I don't got the you know, I don't got the time, mental capacity, I got things to do, I got I'm thinking about stuff, and I just want to watch a movie that's fun, it's also that. It's at the scene level,
Jay: Yeah, that there's that's that's a good
Johnny Shaw: it's genuinely fun. They use they use
Jay: it's got a bit of everything.
Johnny Shaw: they use darkness well too in a way, like when you go to one of those crime scenes and you kinda have to squint and say, Is that a nest? Is there a nest in there? And like
Jay: Yes. Yeah.
Johnny Shaw: I don't have an answer to that. But you recognize what I'm asking. You know the scene I'm talking about.
Jay: absolutely. Then and the the camera lingers just long enough for you to start asking the question and then cuts away.
Johnny Shaw: Yeah, and it's it's just dark enough. Again, another natural world thing, a nest. A lovely nest. with dead bodies in it,
Jay: A lovely human sized nest. yeah the Nes could have nothing to do with it. Nothing at all to do with
Johnny Shaw: Mm-hmm.
Jay: randomly that has somehow made me think. By the way, dear listener, I feel like this is something I will ha I will warn people as we come along. if you are a person who cannot watch a movie if a dog gets killed, don't watch this movie.
Johnny Shaw: Also goats and chickens. Like
Jay: I feel like I I encounter less people who have that problem
Johnny Shaw: Wow. Yeah, I didn't I didn't I didn't know whether like yeah, if I guess if you can eat you know.
Jay: How is that the second time today I'm having that conversation?
Johnny Shaw: Yeah. Yeah. I and that is the because I could watch like five different things with birds falling from the sky. Like I just you know, fine. I'm fine with that. Birds falling from the sky, sure, it's gonna happen.