WEBVTT
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Hi, my name is Sam.
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I'm Erica, welcome to the Crossing Podcast.
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So today we are diving deeper into if communities, Erica, if communities have all these strengths, then what is our role as development workers?
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That's one of the most famous questions students ask.
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Actually, every time we introduce the four models, students begin to think about how they are irrelevant.
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How sometimes we've been forcing ourselves into communities where, you know, they don't need us.
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Do we pack up?
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Do we close our organizations and go because we are not needed?
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Do we stop teaching them how to fish?
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That's a good, that's a good one.
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How can we fish with them?
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Maybe.
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Maybe they don't need fishing.
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Those are some of the questions we need to think about.
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What is our role in the community?
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And when do we come in?
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When do we step in?
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That's what we'll be talking about today.
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Yeah.
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So we are asking ourselves, when do we exactly come in?
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Yeah.
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So that's what we want to delve deep into.
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And uh yes, go ahead and share with us.
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So, what where is the point when we are needed as a development workers?
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Yeah, I think the first thing first is to to look at some of the common mistakes we make.
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I think every time I think about why we are even asking this question, sometimes it's uh because we are worried.
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Some of us, our entire organizations have been built on the fact that these communities need us, quote in quote.
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Without us, without us.
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They can't do anything.
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You know, those are the stories we've shared.
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And to some extent, the communities we are serving, the people we're serving, have begun to believe that they cannot survive without us.
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So sometimes it's us who are afraid, who feel like, how are these people going to live without us?
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If I leave this community, how are they going to be?
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So it's important to address that idea.
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We call it paternalism, that idea of saying, I have to do the things for these people unless I'm not there, these things cannot happen.
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So there's certain common mistakes we make when it comes to working with people.
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And what I found is it's on the leader side.
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Because remember the statement about the community is going to take you the way you present yourself.
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Yes.
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So they will take you as a savior if you come in as a savior.
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They will take you as a partner if you come in as a partner.
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They will work if you support.
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So depending on how you work in the community, that's how they're going to take you.
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And and uh it should also be noted that uh it's not because you have bad intentions, exactly, you just don't know how to do it right, and then you end up making those mistakes.
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Nobody starts out saying, I'm going to do a bad thing to the people.
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So keep your heart, but we need to learn how to do it well.
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Like, how can we do it better?
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Yeah.
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And good intentions, some are not good enough.
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We need we need to do it well.
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It's about impact, not just the good intentions.
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So that our good intentions do not hurt the people.
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Exactly.
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What are some of those mistakes?
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Do you want to share with us?
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Yeah, the first mistake um is actually the rule of thumb for the ABC.
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If you forget anything, is just do not do for the people what they can do for themselves.
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That's if they can sweep, let them sweep.
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Don't square them.
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Do not do for the people what they can do for themselves.
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So until you understand everything they can do for themselves, your place is when if they invite you, then you step in to do what they cannot do.
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Only when you're needed.
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Only when needed.
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And when they feel they actually need you.
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Exactly.
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Sometimes they might not invite you.
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Someone is worried, actually.
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We'll talk about it when we're talking about the steps.
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If you have been in that community and doing a good thing, they will know you.
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They will identify you.
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We need each other.
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It's not like there's no community that can chase any person doing a good thing in the community.
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The only challenge is if we are leading and forcing the communities to do things that they don't.
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They haven't bought into themselves.
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So the common mistake number one is believing that we know better.
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This is the knowledge paternalism.
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I have studied this program.
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This project is research-backed.
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I know it has worked in this country.
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We are implementing it in China.
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We're implementing it in Kigali.
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We're implementing it even.
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And it was successful.
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It was successful.
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I know it works.
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Technology, I'm an expert.
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I've studied Uganda for six months.
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In the story I shared.
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I know this is how the people behave when this and this happen.
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This is what happens.
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But then we forget.
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Remember one of the key principles, citizen-driven.
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Yes.
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That the citizens are the experts.
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There's so much knowledge, no matter how long you will try to understand.
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Even if you spend one week doing a needs analysis, there are so many, it's like so many parts of that community you will never be able to go to.
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Their history you will never understand because you've never lived it.
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That is knowledge that the community has.
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Communities have more knowledge than us, they are best placed to provide solutions.
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Yeah.
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That's powerful.
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And once you have that at the back of your mind, it definitely changes how you treat people.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It's not our solutions that are the best.
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In fact, we need to And we are not the experts.
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We are not the expert.
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Sometimes we need to look at our solutions.
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Is this really?
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It's very few times actually that we question our solutions.
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I know as someone who is leading an organization, we can be so passionate about our approaches.
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Yes.
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That sometimes we don't want anyone to criticize them or look at them.
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You know, even in my case, I'm so passionate about ABCD.
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Sometimes people criticize it, and I'm like, no, it works, but I know that sometimes there are challenges with it too.
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Yeah.
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Uh is there uh any other mistake that uh yeah, it's similar to the first.
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I'm not believing that people are capable.
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Yeah.
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Sometimes I would share stories of sometimes how sometimes people come and uh maybe you're you're going to build a house for someone in a community.
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A poor person, a poor person.
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And we go to that community in a household where there are young people, there's a mother and the father and the children, and we do everything for them.
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Nobody steps up, they are sitting on the sidelines, and you guys are carrying stones and doing everything.
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They are literally sitting and doing nothing.
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So we think, oh, they are poor, they have nothing.
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But if God has blessed them with hands, probably his livelihood depends on him carrying stones for someone else.
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But now because you're building a house, so he can't exist.
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Why?
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Because we have believed these are so poor, there is nothing they can do to contribute.
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Yeah, but then the trick here, ABCD is not about telling them you contribute when they don't want to.
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It's about getting them into the sense of saying, what are the gifts you have?
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How do you want to use them?
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So that's the process.
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It's not forcing people to do something.
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No, they have to have that initiative and drive.
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Exactly.
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How do you tap into that initiative?
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How do you steer it?
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Yeah.
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Don't you think uh um that now brings in uh the question of people with uh disabilities?
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Yeah.
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Don't you think sometimes uh people disregard them?
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Yeah, actually, if you look at um how how people with disabilities are supposed to be defined, one thing I realized is that disability is more than impairment.
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Impairment is the thing that prevents you from doing something, and disability is the environment that is created around you.
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That's as a result of your impairment, you're not able to access things, you're not able to get education and do that.
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And sometimes I think the idea of disability is created by people around.
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The impairment is real.
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That's that's amazing.
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But the disabilities are emphasized by people surrounding the people actually create around them, yeah, uh create the disabilities exactly.
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Say you cannot do this, or we cannot do this.
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You should not, instead of creating ways in which they can also access the same opportunities, so you find that that continuous reputation you repeat to them every day.
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You cannot do it, they begin to believe.
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So you are reinforcing that disability, and yet there are the things they are able to do.
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Yeah, so they have some uh in the abilities, they have an impairment, but they don't have their entire life, it is not a disability.
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That's amazing.
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So it's that's really something, and one thing I found even when we are working with the leaders here in the program, the ALI program, this is a tough topic because for many of them, we feel sorry for people with disabilities.
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And so we can't imagine that we are helping, we we want to allow them to do things for themselves.
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But remember, how as they have they have been living before you got to that community?
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Sometimes the the biggest question when we're working with people with disabilities is can they get to the place that training holds without transportation, without facilitation?
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And I told them, how do they go around every day?
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Tap into what has been existing in that community and find them where they are.
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One of the ways of you creating access is going to them so that they don't have to come to you, and then you live, you work with them in their lived environment, place-based.
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Because in their lived environment, they have figured out how to move from one place to another.
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Interesting.
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Yeah.
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Any other mistakes that uh we commit in the process of yeah, it is because of me that this community has transformed.
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Before organization came to this, yeah, you know, they could not.
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I was having a conversation with a leader I really like.
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And I I just I just listened.
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She said, you know, there is no other organization in this community that is making the impact that we have to do.
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Like we do, yeah.
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Taking the success, being responsible for it.
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But had the people not participated in this, we would not be successful.
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Very few times is the success given to the people who have worked, even if we are teaching them how to fish, those who have actually fished.
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That's our success.
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That's our success.
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Yeah, it's ours, theirs.
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Actually, one of the key things in ABCD is for you never to speak about yourself as much for the community to be so proud of what they have done themselves that they feel dignified.
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And I there are so many stories, you know, like you go to a community where everybody has repeated to them how they are not capable.
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They have heard it over and over and over again.
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But when they do things for themselves, you'll be surprised.
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They see themselves as capable, they begin to say, I did this with my friend, we came together, we built this, and they speak of it as their own success.
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You know, so that's a big mistake we make.
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So the biggest mistakes we make uh uh in in a way of trying to help is that uh we think we know better.
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Yeah.
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The other one we talked about is not believing in their abilities, we don't believe they're not capable, we take their success.
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I find a one where we confuse activity with impact.
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Confusing activity with impact.
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The more we do, we need to do more.
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There is no food.
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Let's go and take food to this community.
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There is no, let's do this, let's do that.
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And the more we do that, the more we are taking the space of the people and the more they are stepping out and leading us to that.
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The more we limit the impact that we can cause.
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Because unless they do it themselves, then our impact is limited.
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Exactly, because impact is long term.
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So, Erica, uh, what's our role then?
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We play a big role, Sam, in the community, um, but it's different.
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It's a background role.
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We're like a mirror in the community where we we hold out a mirror so that the people in the community can see what they are able to do, not do it for them and tell them you can do this, you can do that, or bring a solution that is already there as fixers.
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So, our biggest role is to cheer on the community and support them from the sidelines to identify by holding up that mirror to identify what they're good at.
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I like that uh knowledge of a mirror.
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Yeah.
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So, like you've never seen yourself actually.
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So, here is what you can do, here is who you are, exactly what you are capable of.
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And and what we do in the ABCT process is that we lead them through processes.
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The first one is we act as facilitators, we lead them through processes where they begin to identify.
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The mirror is like the process itself, they begin to identify what those things are.
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What are we good at?
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Each and every individual here has the gifts of the head, heart, and hands.
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Remember the six assets we talked about.
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Help them to identify all the assets associations, institutions, the stories, the history, everything that they have, the economic activities.
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So we run processes where the communities then decide these are our assets.
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After they have identified those assets, they decide what they care most about, not what I care about, not the solution that I came with.
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So sometimes you might go with a solution in the back of your mind, and when they come up with solutions, it's not on the top 10 list.
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Imagine.
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So it's like actually waking up the village.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, it's the notes, it's not on the on the on the top 10, but then the community ends up doing things that matter for them.
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I think one thing I never spoke about um earlier is that every community we go to cares about something.
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Yes, there's no way that a mother whose child is hungry does not feel the pain.
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Sometimes we really underestimate the cares that communities have.
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And when we are very themed, we might underestimate what they care about by trying to force them to care about what we care about.
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So, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
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The most basic at the bottom is what?
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The needs.
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Yes.
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But some of us are programs the basic.
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Yeah.
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On the second level, the psychological, the so we try to get them higher than where they are.
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Yes.
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So we build those projects where we call, we we think they are basic needs when they are not basic needs.
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So we set up these programs.
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For example, we teach them a skill, we give them the funding, but they are struggling to put food on the table.
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So what happens is that they sell those things we have given them so that they can buy they meet their needs.
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And if it was you some and your child was sick and you had money for capital that somebody gave you, I would do the same.
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Well, you would do that.
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Yeah, so we always blame communities because we don't allow them to meet what they care most about by pushing them with an agenda that we have instead of allowing them to make choices, sometimes they end up switching it, exactly uh the purpose for which you intended, and then they they meet their own needs.
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Yeah, but everything is interconnected if you allow them to meet those things, and one thing is they are going to use their own resources.
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Yeah does it hurt you if someone is meeting health and they are meeting this year, not paying for it, they are paying for it.
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Then later on, when they have met those needs, now they can say, Oh wow, there is some organization that does education.
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Can we partner with them so that they can support us?
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So they always find a way of getting back to you.
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So that's um that's a phase you reach and you feel like uh then I need to step back.
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Yeah, you need to step back.
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Yeah, first they they work on their own solutions.
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Next, they invite you as partners into the community.
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They identify you as an asset, you are an institutional asset.
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:25.840
Yes.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:31.440
So you partner with them, not by leading with your solution, finding what's working, and partnering with them.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:38.960
So if five of them have come up with education and you're working in education, then you can work with those teams and co-create a way to improve it.
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.399
So it's them playing a role, and you play a role with your organization to scale what they are doing.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.759
Yeah, when you leave, they can continue because they have already been doing it.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:48.559
You found them.
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.000
They've already participated in bringing it up.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.639
Then you step back so that they can implement it.
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.360
You can't be there every day doing things for them.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.039
And that's the hardest part.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.120
But for me, it's my favorite part.
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:02.720
Letting it go?
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.160
Yes, to not be needed.
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:04.720
I love it.
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.480
How can I be in a place forever?
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.000
Because, like Jesus, we have to go and make disciples of many nations.
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.680
We cannot make disciples and stay with the disciples for the rest of the world.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:22.720
So by stepping back from this community, then you can be able to, when it's fully empowered, then you can go and help and others and work with others and screen.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.519
Although that's very tough for many organizations.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.119
Yes, yeah, it is quite tough for many organizations.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.799
And I really why is that many reasons?
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.519
I think one of the big the first reasons is our fear.
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.240
I think there's a book called Playing God.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.480
Have you read that book?
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:43.759
Playing God.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.279
Some of us, I think there's something within us.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.400
We feel good when we do something and people clap for us.
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.960
It's a normal instinct of every human being.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:00.480
And our fear of not ever being relevant, feeling like I'm not important if I'm not doing anything for these people.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:08.400
Some of us find it's it might be a challenge we have that we have to do something so that people can clap for us.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.640
Yeah.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:18.160
Another thing, we fear that what are we going, how are we going to fundraise when we're saying we don't have we're not doing things for these people, they are doing things for themselves.
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.640
So there are many fears that are there.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.119
And in I remember a story in my in my own story.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:32.640
Um I was trying to get a visa in one of in Rwanda, I'm originally from Burundi.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:43.039
So they had to, I had to go and visit the communities we were working with, and I needed them to tell a testimony about how I've been working with them.
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.559
I remember I stepped back from the community.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.519
And so the immigration officer asks the community.
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.079
I took them, they explained, ABCD, this is how she's been helping, changing our lives.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.920
And then the immigration officer said, When was the last time you saw her?
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.720
And I was like, Oh, they're gonna just be out of this country.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.160
Well, because I stepped back.
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:24.480
Actually, what I did was to step back so that this community, we stayed in touch, does it themselves, and they they responded, the community members responded and said, She's not here every day, but everything she's taught, we learned, we do.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.839
She told us to do things for ourselves, and that's what we are doing.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.319
Wow.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.519
And I was like, if they chased her.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.079
In other words, we do not need her anymore.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:32.720
Exactly.
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:33.680
We have it.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:34.559
Exactly.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:40.240
Yeah, and I felt like if they chased me, or I didn't get no one was going to chase me, of course.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.119
But if they asked me to leave the country, those communities were going to still continue.
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:45.759
Yeah.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.599
So I was like, I think in my in this community, my my job is complete.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.720
I should move on to the next.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.599
Shouldn't that be the dream of every leader?
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.079
It should be seeing their work they start continue even after them.
00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:58.880
Yeah.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:04.880
For us as leaders or community leaders, the best way is to work ourselves out of what we are doing.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.559
So today we learned that in ABCD our role is not to fix but facilitate.
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.119
It's not to rescue but to release.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:18.720
And it's not to direct but to create space for leadership.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.640
The community takes leadership by themselves.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:33.440
And in our next episode, it all becomes real because we'll be talking about how we can go about to implement the ABCDs slowly, the few interventions, how you prepare your organization to do it.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:39.200
And I'll give a few tips about how you can start so that it can be a process you practice.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:40.880
Thank you for joining us.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.279
For more episodes, please visit our website on Chromebooker.org slash podcast.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:48.400
Thank you.
00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:10.240
Hi, my name is Sam.
00:00:10.640 --> 00:00:13.919
I'm Erica, welcome to the Crossing Podcast.
00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:34.159
So today we are diving deeper into if communities, Erica, if communities have all these strengths, then what is our role as development workers?
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:37.920
That's one of the most famous questions students ask.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:45.920
Actually, every time we introduce the four models, students begin to think about how they are irrelevant.
00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.439
How sometimes we've been forcing ourselves into communities where, you know, they don't need us.
00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:52.479
Do we pack up?
00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.479
Do we close our organizations and go because we are not needed?
00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:59.600
Do we stop teaching them how to fish?
00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:02.240
That's a good, that's a good one.
00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.640
How can we fish with them?
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:05.200
Maybe.
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:07.120
Maybe they don't need fishing.
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:10.560
Those are some of the questions we need to think about.
00:01:10.719 --> 00:01:12.799
What is our role in the community?
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:14.319
And when do we come in?
00:01:14.480 --> 00:01:15.519
When do we step in?
00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:17.920
That's what we'll be talking about today.
00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:18.480
Yeah.
00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.319
So we are asking ourselves, when do we exactly come in?
00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:22.640
Yeah.
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.519
So that's what we want to delve deep into.
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.079
And uh yes, go ahead and share with us.
00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:33.519
So, what where is the point when we are needed as a development workers?
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:39.280
Yeah, I think the first thing first is to to look at some of the common mistakes we make.
00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:47.519
I think every time I think about why we are even asking this question, sometimes it's uh because we are worried.
00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:55.439
Some of us, our entire organizations have been built on the fact that these communities need us, quote in quote.
00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:56.799
Without us, without us.
00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.359
They can't do anything.
00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:01.760
You know, those are the stories we've shared.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:09.120
And to some extent, the communities we are serving, the people we're serving, have begun to believe that they cannot survive without us.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:15.599
So sometimes it's us who are afraid, who feel like, how are these people going to live without us?
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:18.800
If I leave this community, how are they going to be?
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:21.439
So it's important to address that idea.
00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:29.680
We call it paternalism, that idea of saying, I have to do the things for these people unless I'm not there, these things cannot happen.
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:34.319
So there's certain common mistakes we make when it comes to working with people.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:36.879
And what I found is it's on the leader side.
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:41.840
Because remember the statement about the community is going to take you the way you present yourself.
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:42.319
Yes.
00:02:42.479 --> 00:02:45.280
So they will take you as a savior if you come in as a savior.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:48.080
They will take you as a partner if you come in as a partner.
00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:50.560
They will work if you support.
00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.560
So depending on how you work in the community, that's how they're going to take you.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:05.680
And and uh it should also be noted that uh it's not because you have bad intentions, exactly, you just don't know how to do it right, and then you end up making those mistakes.
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:09.759
Nobody starts out saying, I'm going to do a bad thing to the people.
00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:13.599
So keep your heart, but we need to learn how to do it well.
00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:15.280
Like, how can we do it better?
00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:16.240
Yeah.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.439
And good intentions, some are not good enough.
00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:22.639
We need we need to do it well.
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:24.960
It's about impact, not just the good intentions.
00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.919
So that our good intentions do not hurt the people.
00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:28.719
Exactly.
00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:30.719
What are some of those mistakes?
00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:32.319
Do you want to share with us?
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:37.280
Yeah, the first mistake um is actually the rule of thumb for the ABC.
00:03:37.360 --> 00:03:41.840
If you forget anything, is just do not do for the people what they can do for themselves.
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.719
That's if they can sweep, let them sweep.
00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:45.599
Don't square them.
00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:49.680
Do not do for the people what they can do for themselves.
00:03:49.919 --> 00:04:00.960
So until you understand everything they can do for themselves, your place is when if they invite you, then you step in to do what they cannot do.
00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:02.560
Only when you're needed.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:03.759
Only when needed.
00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.400
And when they feel they actually need you.
00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:07.280
Exactly.
00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:08.960
Sometimes they might not invite you.
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:10.240
Someone is worried, actually.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.560
We'll talk about it when we're talking about the steps.
00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:17.600
If you have been in that community and doing a good thing, they will know you.
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:19.279
They will identify you.
00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:20.160
We need each other.
00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:24.720
It's not like there's no community that can chase any person doing a good thing in the community.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:29.759
The only challenge is if we are leading and forcing the communities to do things that they don't.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:31.839
They haven't bought into themselves.
00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.480
So the common mistake number one is believing that we know better.
00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:38.319
This is the knowledge paternalism.
00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:39.680
I have studied this program.
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:41.600
This project is research-backed.
00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:43.600
I know it has worked in this country.
00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:45.519
We are implementing it in China.
00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.439
We're implementing it in Kigali.
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:48.399
We're implementing it even.
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:49.600
And it was successful.
00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:50.639
It was successful.
00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:51.680
I know it works.
00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:53.120
Technology, I'm an expert.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:56.000
I've studied Uganda for six months.
00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:57.600
In the story I shared.
00:04:58.000 --> 00:05:01.279
I know this is how the people behave when this and this happen.
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:02.639
This is what happens.
00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:04.800
But then we forget.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.000
Remember one of the key principles, citizen-driven.
00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:08.560
Yes.
00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:10.639
That the citizens are the experts.
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.560
There's so much knowledge, no matter how long you will try to understand.
00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:24.000
Even if you spend one week doing a needs analysis, there are so many, it's like so many parts of that community you will never be able to go to.
00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:27.680
Their history you will never understand because you've never lived it.
00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.319
That is knowledge that the community has.
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:35.199
Communities have more knowledge than us, they are best placed to provide solutions.
00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:35.920
Yeah.
00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:37.600
That's powerful.
00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:44.560
And once you have that at the back of your mind, it definitely changes how you treat people.
00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:46.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.240
It's not our solutions that are the best.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:50.639
In fact, we need to And we are not the experts.
00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:51.759
We are not the expert.
00:05:51.920 --> 00:05:54.079
Sometimes we need to look at our solutions.
00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:55.040
Is this really?
00:05:55.360 --> 00:05:58.720
It's very few times actually that we question our solutions.
00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:03.920
I know as someone who is leading an organization, we can be so passionate about our approaches.
00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:04.480
Yes.
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.879
That sometimes we don't want anyone to criticize them or look at them.
00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:12.560
You know, even in my case, I'm so passionate about ABCD.
00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:18.720
Sometimes people criticize it, and I'm like, no, it works, but I know that sometimes there are challenges with it too.
00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:19.600
Yeah.
00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.399
Uh is there uh any other mistake that uh yeah, it's similar to the first.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:28.000
I'm not believing that people are capable.
00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:28.800
Yeah.
00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:37.360
Sometimes I would share stories of sometimes how sometimes people come and uh maybe you're you're going to build a house for someone in a community.
00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.600
A poor person, a poor person.
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:49.759
And we go to that community in a household where there are young people, there's a mother and the father and the children, and we do everything for them.
00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:56.480
Nobody steps up, they are sitting on the sidelines, and you guys are carrying stones and doing everything.
00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.360
They are literally sitting and doing nothing.
00:06:59.920 --> 00:07:02.079
So we think, oh, they are poor, they have nothing.
00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:08.879
But if God has blessed them with hands, probably his livelihood depends on him carrying stones for someone else.
00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.360
But now because you're building a house, so he can't exist.
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:13.120
Why?
00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:16.560
Because we have believed these are so poor, there is nothing they can do to contribute.
00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:22.000
Yeah, but then the trick here, ABCD is not about telling them you contribute when they don't want to.
00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:26.720
It's about getting them into the sense of saying, what are the gifts you have?
00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.079
How do you want to use them?
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:29.120
So that's the process.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.879
It's not forcing people to do something.
00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:33.759
No, they have to have that initiative and drive.
00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:34.560
Exactly.
00:07:34.720 --> 00:07:36.639
How do you tap into that initiative?
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:37.680
How do you steer it?
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:38.800
Yeah.
00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:45.279
Don't you think uh um that now brings in uh the question of people with uh disabilities?
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:45.839
Yeah.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:49.759
Don't you think sometimes uh people disregard them?
00:07:51.680 --> 00:08:02.959
Yeah, actually, if you look at um how how people with disabilities are supposed to be defined, one thing I realized is that disability is more than impairment.
00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:11.920
Impairment is the thing that prevents you from doing something, and disability is the environment that is created around you.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:17.920
That's as a result of your impairment, you're not able to access things, you're not able to get education and do that.
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.759
And sometimes I think the idea of disability is created by people around.
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:23.360
The impairment is real.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:24.959
That's that's amazing.
00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:34.159
But the disabilities are emphasized by people surrounding the people actually create around them, yeah, uh create the disabilities exactly.
00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.399
Say you cannot do this, or we cannot do this.
00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:46.639
You should not, instead of creating ways in which they can also access the same opportunities, so you find that that continuous reputation you repeat to them every day.
00:08:47.279 --> 00:08:49.279
You cannot do it, they begin to believe.
00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:54.960
So you are reinforcing that disability, and yet there are the things they are able to do.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:04.320
Yeah, so they have some uh in the abilities, they have an impairment, but they don't have their entire life, it is not a disability.
00:09:04.559 --> 00:09:05.600
That's amazing.
00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:18.639
So it's that's really something, and one thing I found even when we are working with the leaders here in the program, the ALI program, this is a tough topic because for many of them, we feel sorry for people with disabilities.
00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:24.320
And so we can't imagine that we are helping, we we want to allow them to do things for themselves.
00:09:24.559 --> 00:09:29.279
But remember, how as they have they have been living before you got to that community?
00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:39.679
Sometimes the the biggest question when we're working with people with disabilities is can they get to the place that training holds without transportation, without facilitation?
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.039
And I told them, how do they go around every day?
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.000
Tap into what has been existing in that community and find them where they are.
00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:59.759
One of the ways of you creating access is going to them so that they don't have to come to you, and then you live, you work with them in their lived environment, place-based.
00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.159
Because in their lived environment, they have figured out how to move from one place to another.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:04.960
Interesting.
00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:05.519
Yeah.
00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:14.720
Any other mistakes that uh we commit in the process of yeah, it is because of me that this community has transformed.
00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:19.039
Before organization came to this, yeah, you know, they could not.
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.840
I was having a conversation with a leader I really like.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:24.399
And I I just I just listened.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.799
She said, you know, there is no other organization in this community that is making the impact that we have to do.
00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:31.919
Like we do, yeah.
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:35.759
Taking the success, being responsible for it.
00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:40.639
But had the people not participated in this, we would not be successful.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:49.919
Very few times is the success given to the people who have worked, even if we are teaching them how to fish, those who have actually fished.
00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:50.720
That's our success.
00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:51.600
That's our success.
00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:53.360
Yeah, it's ours, theirs.
00:10:53.759 --> 00:11:08.159
Actually, one of the key things in ABCD is for you never to speak about yourself as much for the community to be so proud of what they have done themselves that they feel dignified.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:14.559
And I there are so many stories, you know, like you go to a community where everybody has repeated to them how they are not capable.
00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:18.080
They have heard it over and over and over again.
00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:21.120
But when they do things for themselves, you'll be surprised.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:30.480
They see themselves as capable, they begin to say, I did this with my friend, we came together, we built this, and they speak of it as their own success.
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.840
You know, so that's a big mistake we make.
00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:41.919
So the biggest mistakes we make uh uh in in a way of trying to help is that uh we think we know better.
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:42.559
Yeah.
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:49.120
The other one we talked about is not believing in their abilities, we don't believe they're not capable, we take their success.
00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:52.639
I find a one where we confuse activity with impact.
00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.320
Confusing activity with impact.
00:11:56.559 --> 00:11:58.240
The more we do, we need to do more.
00:11:58.399 --> 00:11:59.279
There is no food.
00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:01.200
Let's go and take food to this community.
00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.200
There is no, let's do this, let's do that.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:08.480
And the more we do that, the more we are taking the space of the people and the more they are stepping out and leading us to that.
00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.360
The more we limit the impact that we can cause.
00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:15.039
Because unless they do it themselves, then our impact is limited.
00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:16.960
Exactly, because impact is long term.
00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:20.080
So, Erica, uh, what's our role then?
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.720
We play a big role, Sam, in the community, um, but it's different.
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:26.639
It's a background role.
00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:43.360
We're like a mirror in the community where we we hold out a mirror so that the people in the community can see what they are able to do, not do it for them and tell them you can do this, you can do that, or bring a solution that is already there as fixers.
00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:54.799
So, our biggest role is to cheer on the community and support them from the sidelines to identify by holding up that mirror to identify what they're good at.
00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:57.600
I like that uh knowledge of a mirror.
00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:57.919
Yeah.
00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:00.320
So, like you've never seen yourself actually.
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:05.120
So, here is what you can do, here is who you are, exactly what you are capable of.
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.120
And and what we do in the ABCT process is that we lead them through processes.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:16.480
The first one is we act as facilitators, we lead them through processes where they begin to identify.
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:21.679
The mirror is like the process itself, they begin to identify what those things are.
00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:23.600
What are we good at?
00:13:23.759 --> 00:13:27.120
Each and every individual here has the gifts of the head, heart, and hands.
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.440
Remember the six assets we talked about.
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:38.080
Help them to identify all the assets associations, institutions, the stories, the history, everything that they have, the economic activities.
00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:43.519
So we run processes where the communities then decide these are our assets.
00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:52.399
After they have identified those assets, they decide what they care most about, not what I care about, not the solution that I came with.
00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:59.600
So sometimes you might go with a solution in the back of your mind, and when they come up with solutions, it's not on the top 10 list.
00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:01.919
Imagine.
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.879
So it's like actually waking up the village.
00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:05.840
Exactly.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:12.559
Yeah, it's the notes, it's not on the on the on the top 10, but then the community ends up doing things that matter for them.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:20.159
I think one thing I never spoke about um earlier is that every community we go to cares about something.
00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:26.320
Yes, there's no way that a mother whose child is hungry does not feel the pain.
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.279
Sometimes we really underestimate the cares that communities have.
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:40.159
And when we are very themed, we might underestimate what they care about by trying to force them to care about what we care about.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:43.279
So, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:47.279
The most basic at the bottom is what?
00:14:47.440 --> 00:14:48.000
The needs.
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:48.480
Yes.
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.960
But some of us are programs the basic.
00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:51.200
Yeah.
00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:57.120
On the second level, the psychological, the so we try to get them higher than where they are.
00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:57.519
Yes.
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:03.519
So we build those projects where we call, we we think they are basic needs when they are not basic needs.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:05.120
So we set up these programs.
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:10.080
For example, we teach them a skill, we give them the funding, but they are struggling to put food on the table.
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:17.679
So what happens is that they sell those things we have given them so that they can buy they meet their needs.
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:24.080
And if it was you some and your child was sick and you had money for capital that somebody gave you, I would do the same.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.279
Well, you would do that.
00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:43.360
Yeah, so we always blame communities because we don't allow them to meet what they care most about by pushing them with an agenda that we have instead of allowing them to make choices, sometimes they end up switching it, exactly uh the purpose for which you intended, and then they they meet their own needs.
00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:49.600
Yeah, but everything is interconnected if you allow them to meet those things, and one thing is they are going to use their own resources.
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:55.279
Yeah does it hurt you if someone is meeting health and they are meeting this year, not paying for it, they are paying for it.
00:15:55.840 --> 00:16:02.159
Then later on, when they have met those needs, now they can say, Oh wow, there is some organization that does education.
00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.039
Can we partner with them so that they can support us?
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:07.919
So they always find a way of getting back to you.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:13.440
So that's um that's a phase you reach and you feel like uh then I need to step back.
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:14.799
Yeah, you need to step back.
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.840
Yeah, first they they work on their own solutions.
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:21.919
Next, they invite you as partners into the community.
00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.519
They identify you as an asset, you are an institutional asset.
00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:25.840
Yes.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:31.440
So you partner with them, not by leading with your solution, finding what's working, and partnering with them.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:38.960
So if five of them have come up with education and you're working in education, then you can work with those teams and co-create a way to improve it.
00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.399
So it's them playing a role, and you play a role with your organization to scale what they are doing.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.759
Yeah, when you leave, they can continue because they have already been doing it.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:48.559
You found them.
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.000
They've already participated in bringing it up.
00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.639
Then you step back so that they can implement it.
00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.360
You can't be there every day doing things for them.
00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.039
And that's the hardest part.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.120
But for me, it's my favorite part.
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:02.720
Letting it go?
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:04.160
Yes, to not be needed.
00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:04.720
I love it.
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.480
How can I be in a place forever?
00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:10.000
Because, like Jesus, we have to go and make disciples of many nations.
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.680
We cannot make disciples and stay with the disciples for the rest of the world.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:22.720
So by stepping back from this community, then you can be able to, when it's fully empowered, then you can go and help and others and work with others and screen.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.519
Although that's very tough for many organizations.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.119
Yes, yeah, it is quite tough for many organizations.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.799
And I really why is that many reasons?
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:37.519
I think one of the big the first reasons is our fear.
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.240
I think there's a book called Playing God.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:42.480
Have you read that book?
00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:43.759
Playing God.
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.279
Some of us, I think there's something within us.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.400
We feel good when we do something and people clap for us.
00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:52.960
It's a normal instinct of every human being.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:00.480
And our fear of not ever being relevant, feeling like I'm not important if I'm not doing anything for these people.
00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:08.400
Some of us find it's it might be a challenge we have that we have to do something so that people can clap for us.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.640
Yeah.
00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:18.160
Another thing, we fear that what are we going, how are we going to fundraise when we're saying we don't have we're not doing things for these people, they are doing things for themselves.
00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:20.640
So there are many fears that are there.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:25.119
And in I remember a story in my in my own story.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:32.640
Um I was trying to get a visa in one of in Rwanda, I'm originally from Burundi.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:43.039
So they had to, I had to go and visit the communities we were working with, and I needed them to tell a testimony about how I've been working with them.
00:18:43.359 --> 00:18:46.559
I remember I stepped back from the community.
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.519
And so the immigration officer asks the community.
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:56.079
I took them, they explained, ABCD, this is how she's been helping, changing our lives.
00:18:56.319 --> 00:18:59.920
And then the immigration officer said, When was the last time you saw her?
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:04.720
And I was like, Oh, they're gonna just be out of this country.
00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.160
Well, because I stepped back.
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:24.480
Actually, what I did was to step back so that this community, we stayed in touch, does it themselves, and they they responded, the community members responded and said, She's not here every day, but everything she's taught, we learned, we do.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.839
She told us to do things for ourselves, and that's what we are doing.
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:28.319
Wow.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:29.519
And I was like, if they chased her.
00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:32.079
In other words, we do not need her anymore.
00:19:32.240 --> 00:19:32.720
Exactly.
00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:33.680
We have it.
00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:34.559
Exactly.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:40.240
Yeah, and I felt like if they chased me, or I didn't get no one was going to chase me, of course.
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:45.119
But if they asked me to leave the country, those communities were going to still continue.
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:45.759
Yeah.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.599
So I was like, I think in my in this community, my my job is complete.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.720
I should move on to the next.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.599
Shouldn't that be the dream of every leader?
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.079
It should be seeing their work they start continue even after them.
00:19:58.240 --> 00:19:58.880
Yeah.
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:04.880
For us as leaders or community leaders, the best way is to work ourselves out of what we are doing.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:10.559
So today we learned that in ABCD our role is not to fix but facilitate.
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:13.119
It's not to rescue but to release.
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:18.720
And it's not to direct but to create space for leadership.
00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.640
The community takes leadership by themselves.
00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:33.440
And in our next episode, it all becomes real because we'll be talking about how we can go about to implement the ABCDs slowly, the few interventions, how you prepare your organization to do it.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:39.200
And I'll give a few tips about how you can start so that it can be a process you practice.
00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:40.880
Thank you for joining us.
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:47.279
For more episodes, please visit our website on Chromebooker.org slash podcast.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:48.400
Thank you.
