Matthew Magro: Alrighty, welcome back. Today we are going to get a little technical. ⁓ episode is called Let's Get Technical and we're diving into something that gets talked a lot but honestly it's not understood all the time which is resinous flooring. If spent any time around commercial construction you've definitely heard someone say, yeah we're gonna put epoxy down there. But the reality is that one phase can mean a dozen completely different systems. different thicknesses, different performance levels, totally different applications. So today we're going to unpack that. And we've got someone today who deals with that every single day. Jay Whitaker joins us, who is a subject matter expert in all things, resonance flooring from design, specification, and performance in the field. Jay, welcome to the show.
Jay Whitaker: Well, thank you and good morning, Matthew. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: Good morning, good morning. Absolutely. to preface this, we're not going to spend 45 minutes going over SSCP and AMP search. We're not going to go through ASTM standards and just recite literature at people. You joke because I feel like we've had to memorize quite a few of those things in our time. ⁓ And there's doubt that you've got a lot of those in your brain. But I am that you're here.
Jay Whitaker: Okay. Thank you.
Matthew Magro: ⁓ And it's because this topic specifically the deeper you go the more complicated it can get So today we're gonna go we're gonna talk about different types of epoxy floor systems Where those systems actually belong? And something every contractor has wrestled with at some point which is working through and with specifications because sometimes specs are great and sometimes they create more problems than they solve so Let's start the basics
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Magro: ⁓ When someone says resinous flooring, what do you think that they're talking about versus what it actually means in the industry?
Jay Whitaker: A lot of times people believe that they are speaking about just a liquid applied flooring. They don't know what that liquid is, but they are looking at some type of liquid, maybe a poured type flooring, something that they may have seen at Home Depot or Lowe's. just from that alone, I think some people, when they say resinous flooring, they really don't know what they're doing. I mean, or what they're wanting to, what that is. You know, they may not even know what that is.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's right. That makes a lot of sense because once you start breaking it down, there's a huge range of systems under the umbrella, right? mean, thin mills, self-levelers, quartz flakes, urethane cements. when you start getting into some of those more detailed things, and you we won't go super into the weeds here today, but even more chemical resistant systems, vinyl and Novalax and MMAs, you can get deep into the weeds pretty quickly.
Jay Whitaker: ⁓ yes. That's right. Well, a lot of times, breaded somersaulting really as a whole, you know, it's kind of like a... guess if you wanted to look at it, it's a durable, seamless... I guess a lot of things, the parts that play part of that is like a hygienic surface that's applied. And a lot of times it is a liquid. It is a ⁓ liquid that goes down. And they're used, know, lot of people know Epoxys, Urethanes, MMAs, because they're really the best for when we start getting into an industrial or commercial ⁓ environment. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, what's it what that's interesting because a lot of people probably look at those systems and just think well It's epoxy it it should all perform the same but but obviously it doesn't
Jay Whitaker: No, it doesn't. There's key advantages for each one, whether it be high resistant to impact or chemicals, abrasion, heat. I mean, there's so many things that has to come into play before you would want to make a recommendation and just say, hey, we're going to put resinous flooring down. If you look at specs, see that resinous flooring tab in the 9700s, you start looking at that spec and you start realizing it's resinous flooring. But then as you look deeper into the spec, sometimes it holds different type of ⁓ environment and you have to kind of dig into what you're looking at versus just a standard ⁓ specification.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, no, that's good. Would you agree that, you know, chemical resistance and texture, thermal shock, ⁓ elongation, ⁓ a of those characteristics are misunderstood for people, for most systems?
Jay Whitaker: Absolutely they are. Absolutely they are. mean if you really start looking at okay so you start breaking down chemistries. I don't want to get deep in the weeds but you have epoxies. They're kind of known for ⁓ adhesion because of their tensile strength. Then you have urethanes. They're as they're I mean they're really for top coats to protect the the base coats and then you have urethane cements. know they they supply a durable they're in heavy duty areas. where we need moisture mitigation, where we need thermal shock. Then you have a methamethacrylate. It's a fast cure acrylic based chemistry. you have a polyaspartic. You have so many chemistries ⁓ then to put together when you start like really putting together that system, ⁓ know, it's all of all of the things that I just mentioned there. It's all to protect the asset. The asset being the concrete and all have a different purpose. Not you can't just pick one chemistry and say ⁓ yeah this is the one we want to use and ⁓ going to do all the things that we need when in fact that is not the case.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, no, that's good. Well, you kind of read my mind here. Let's talk about environment for a minute and matching the system to that environment. Because in my opinion, the most common ⁓ failure isn't necessarily the installation, though that can be a factor. It's choosing the wrong system for the environment in the first place, right? So when you're evaluating a project, what's the first questions you ask yourself before recommending a system overall?
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. I want to as far as the environment, it going to be a, it a production? Is it a wet area? Does it need thermal shock? Does need moisture mitigation? There's a lot of parts that come into those questions that we need to be asking. Is there an active vapor barrier present? that I look at as far as okay and not just the basis of like what the system and where it's going is but what are we looking at as far as the aesthetics? Are we looking at something decorative? Are we looking at something functional? Are we looking at something that's going to require lot of maintenance? ⁓ Is maintenance ⁓ to be part of the decision making? Because that plays a big part of the decisions of what system they really want to use whether ⁓ is slip resistance required. Where are we with that? And that actually falls back into wet So some of those things that when you start really asking some questions, ⁓ it get, you you really have to have some strict answers and some final answers to make a ⁓ good recommendation that we meet all those, so that we're able to ⁓ hit all those you know, all those ⁓ things that we to, you know, the answers to those, those questions. Absolutely.
Matthew Magro: No. That's good. It's funny. I know you enough to know that when you're describing these even answering questions that you've got Hundreds horror stories that back up what you're saying and why you're saying it Sadly, that's a ⁓ nature of beast The reason people understand what to use and and why not to use something else is because they've seen it fail or take a hard left turn in the past So well, let's let's run through a real-world example, right? Say we're looking at a commercial kitchen. You've hot wash down
Jay Whitaker: Yes. Yes. Okay.
Matthew Magro: grease, aggressive cleaning chemicals, constant cleaning, thermal cycling from equipment, right? So ⁓ what standard systems tend to struggle with in that environment compared to something like ⁓ a urethane cement or a trial-grade mortar for that matter?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, one of the things that struggle in that type of environment is ⁓ thermal shock. Thermal shock and the aggressive chemicals that are used during the maintenance part of it. So a lot of times, what is the maintenance program? I always like to dig into ⁓ is going to be the maintenance program that is set forth for this space. And then as well as that, tell me about the cleaning procedures. So we kind of want to dig into the chemicals that are going to be used on the surface. go in there and you put the wrong product in, all of a sudden what happens is, and is it going to be considered a wet area? What we say is it going to be continuously wet? often are we going to have these wash downs? ⁓ that we can understand when we're making the recommendation that when that product is set ⁓ forth, let's that you put an epoxy in there ⁓ or you something in there, well, epoxies break down at about 150 degrees. Most epoxies, not all of them, but the majority of them. ⁓ And so when you start having hot water washdowns, even on top of a urethane cement, what will happen is you have epoxies that start breaking down under certain temperatures. ⁓ They down basically at a 200 degree or 180 degree washdown ⁓ and start creating a pop out and then they reform as they dry and then these little areas will pop out and then they collect dirt. So now we have a hygiene issue. So we have something that a hygienic concern. So if you make ⁓ a bad recommendation and you put the wrong product in there for the environment that it's supposed to be used as or designed as, going to happen is you're going to create other issues. So now, and especially in that environment where, let's say, a commercial kitchen is involved, ⁓ don't want those hygienic concerns take place. So you've got to be very careful when you start making a recommendation ⁓ of type of product you're going to use as the top code. because if it stays wet, we don't want to really use a thin film product as our surface coat because thin mills, all it takes is a pinhole and now we've got an issue of loss of adhesion. So I mean there's a lot of things that come into play for that type of environment and hopefully I answered your question regards to what we need to be paying attention to.
Matthew Magro: That's right. Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, let's flip the scenario. Instead of a kitchen, imagine something like a corridor. Totally different ⁓ use right? Is there ever a situation where a flooring system is technically strong enough, but still the wrong choice? Maybe in a matter of maintenance or rolling loads or even ergonomics.
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. Depending on, well if it's a hallway, let's say they have AVG's where they actually you've got automated vehicles that are up and down that walkway. We want to take into concern or into retrospect, we want to examine what kind of wheels are going to be on there. Are they metal wheels? Are we talking about rubber wheels? What's the point loads? What is the weight of the vehicle? often does it travel up and down that walk or that corridor? ⁓ How often or is it very heavy foot traffic? Is it considered or it just a bypass corridor that people rarely use? So those are things that can kind of come into play that will kind of Will lead us down the path of making the best recommendation It could just be that we want to use a poly aspartic as a top coat ⁓ or it be that we need to Depending on what's traveling up and down that corridor ⁓ if we have going on may want to use a Novalac epoxy and or we just may want to use a chemical resistant urethane. ⁓ we'd like to know everything we can about what comes into contact with the surface of the floor. Not just the foot traffic, ⁓ ⁓ much foot traffic and if there's going to be any chemicals or anything that can come in contact with that surface so that we can make sure that what top coat is recommended ⁓ actually going to be the one that ⁓ going to perform ⁓ it was designed for that area.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's great. Let's get inside. shift gears a little bit. Let's get into something that every contractor, and to be honest with you, every manufacturer has opinions about. That's specifications. Specs can be complicated. Sometimes they're copied from a project 10 years ago.
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matthew Magro: Sometimes they're dated in a different way and sometimes they're written around a very specific manufacturer, right? So when you see a spec that you know probably won't perform long-term, how do you generally approach recommending an alternate without creating unnecessary friction on a project?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, well what we'll do is if looking at a product and we know that that product either has ⁓ put by the wayside or they have pulled something in and we're looking for an alternate ⁓ some of the things that we do look at is going to come into play, is going to be the technical characteristics of the floor. We want to see where our compressive strengths are because we want to get something comparable. We're not wanting to just ⁓ put in there because we feel like, ⁓ this is what we want. We want to be comparable to what they have the designers, whether it be an architect or an engineer, is expecting. ⁓ we kind of, want to dig into our compressive strengths, tensile strength, ⁓ abrasion resistance, ⁓ the flexural strength, you know, as far as its movement, bond strength, flammability. ⁓ is so many things that come into play with that specification so that when we go into it, we are wanting to maybe switch the product out. ⁓ still want to be comparable as a as or what we call an as or equal change of product.
Matthew Magro: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. Easier said than done, sometimes there's a resistance there for sure. what something that causes more floor failures than almost anything else? Not always, it's not exclusive, right? But moisture. In your experience, how often is moisture testing skipped and ⁓ underestimated commercial projects?
Jay Whitaker: Mmm. often I would ⁓ I don't want to say it in ⁓ a joking way, but quite often moisture testing, I do see it a lot in specs, ⁓ but they're making a recommendation for a specification for whether it be, ⁓ let's the building doesn't have a controlled environment. Well, one of the testing methods we wouldn't want to use at that point would be the calcium chloride test what we call, and I don't want to get into all the technical jargon, but it would be the ASDM 1869. So that would lead us down. I mean, there's two real testing methods for moisture, which is the 1869 and the 2170. One is a dynamic test, the calcium chloride, but it's a longer test. takes 60 to 72 hours. The building has to be acclimated for 48 hours. There are things that take place before the testing can be done. Plus, more than anything, we need to know
Matthew Magro: Thank
Jay Whitaker: one thing from the very beginning, is there an active vapor barrier present under this slab? there's not, then we definitely want to possibly at that moment consider a cement because they have a higher tolerance for moisture and most of them work as a reservoir system where they pull that moisture up, they ⁓ contain it ⁓ and everything on the surface ⁓ of urethane cement you can put whatever you want at that point. You can put an MMA, an epoxy, decorative system. You can go into different aesthetics. I mean, so many things come into play at that, but moisture is... it is like ⁓ one thing that people overlook and don't give it much thought, ⁓ there is something that's driving that moisture in a space where it's controlled, so you definitely need to be aware of it, absolutely.
Matthew Magro: That's good. Well, in your opinion out what? At what vapor moisture vapor emission rate or you know, realistically relative humidity level. Do you immediately start recommending moisture mitigation systems?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, so that's a good question. can go and now in the flooring, ⁓ residence flooring, we look at that 75 to 80. ⁓ we start getting anything and when I say 80%, let's say let's work in percentages and in pounds. One is anything over three pounds. The standard industry for basically a standard epoxy or conventional epoxy, anything above three pounds is where we start considering looking at moisture mitigation. Now that for the 1869, which is an ASTM standard set forth ⁓ is testing with using a calcium chloride. ⁓ that is ⁓ anything above three pounds begins to alarm or set off alarms that we need to do moisture mitigation. ⁓ Then you an RH test, which is relative humidity testing, which actually gives us the total amount of moisture within the slab as far as a vapor percentage and it starts getting at 75 to 80 now flooring for like VCT not resinous flooring, but you start looking at VCT and vinyl and Carpet and wood and things like that. They're working about 75 % We start looking at it about 80 % anything above 80 % that sends up an alarm and that's the 2170 that's ASTM 2170 that's the use of an incintiube tube drilled into the substrate at a certain depth depending on the thickness of the slab that will send to us the temperature or sent to the contractor whoever's doing the testing it'll tell them the temperature of the slab as well as it'll tell them the percentage of moisture and that is a 24 test and that gives you a percentage ⁓ of the moisture throughout the slab. So they do not correlate. The calcium chloride test and the RAH testing, they're not correlated. One's a dynamic testing, the other one's testing for ⁓ relative humidity within the slab.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's good. Well, might be commonplace, but do you explain CSP and in truly proper surface prep to owners or GCs rather that just see it as extra time and extra cost, right? Cause that's the other side of the coin. We can handle with the environmental's and all of the specifics that pertain to the substrate prior to putting something down on the floor. But I mean, in flooring, regardless of the actual scope of work, knows the phrase surface prep is the job. There's some you cannot skip. what's your opinion on doing it right and verifying why that needs to actually take place per the system that's going down?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, so each system and pretty much on everyone's, every manufacturer has a surface profile recommendation. It's in a range. It could be from two to three, ⁓ to four, three to five. ⁓ so what that does is that allows the ⁓ ⁓ understand that each concrete surface profile, which is also known as CSP, what it is for that system that's being installed. for each product. So what we want to do is we try to with each contractor that if you want to cut the corner and not provide the actual concrete service profile that's recommended and really I guess understanding what that concrete service profile is. ⁓ depth, it's the distance between the valley and the peak of that of the concrete from ⁓ That's how it's measured. That's how you get these how it's defined from a CSP 1 2 & 3 There's a few more fingers sticking up and it's the when I say the fingers that are sticking up it's the part of the concrete of the profile and that profile is measured from the top of that Peak the bottom of that valley and that distance is how we determine the CSP now all that said each product has its ⁓ own Every system will have its own CSP recommendation and as I stated it's in a range. So ⁓ want to make sure that they understand that if you're just going for a CSP one or two we can look at grinding. We may want to ⁓ of all do a Maw's hardness test to determine the hardness of the concrete. ⁓ assist the contractor to understand what type of tooling he's going to need when he gets onto the job site. ⁓ then he's not burning up diamonds. So then at that point we are creating a profile through the grinding method. Then you start getting into something a little more in depth where we start getting into high build systems from like 10 to 40 mils and then we start getting into ⁓ eighth systems and then so you're looking at maybe a three to five at that point. ⁓ So start changing but if you look at any manufacturer, coding manufacturers, whether it be a technical data sheet, an ⁓ application guide, a product data sheet, it should give you a range for CSP. Now all of that said and you can determine what that is, it tells you what it is, we want to know how to achieve it. Well, we go through ICRI. ICRI, also have methods of the ⁓ SSPC NAISC. ⁓ They also both of those work in combination to determine how we're going to achieve that CSP and then what that CSP should be. So ⁓ always tell everybody you need to really understand not just what CSP is and understanding the surface prep, but how are we going to achieve it and then what tooling are we going to use to achieve it? What can we use? What's the most efficient? What's the most effective? Well, you want to use ⁓ tooling that's going to be the most efficient. You don't want to be out there ⁓ than you should be. So you kind of need to be in what tooling needs to be used and then also what we're trying to achieve and how to get there. ⁓ So would be ⁓ one I would state about that. Contractors as a whole ⁓ need understand that that CSP is going to provide ⁓ the system installed As it was designed to be ⁓ so it will perform at its peak performance It will it's just like anything else you want to give it its most optimal opportunity to perform as it was designed by the manufacturer and we have provided in almost every case from a distributor or from a manufacturer standpoint we have provided what the CSP should be so sometimes some We need a CSP 3-5. They use grinding methods. That is not possible. You cannot achieve a CSP 3-5 by grinding unless you were using bush hammers and then you could. But the majority is would be shot blast. So that would be one case is what I say. I see a lot of the guys using the wrong tooling, the wrong equipment for CSP 3-5 or 3-6 versus that 1 and 2 where we can get away with grinding. And I hope I didn't get too deep in the weeds on that Matthew.
Matthew Magro: No, no, got to stay true to the the title of the episode. That's good stuff. So I mean ⁓ that just just because something can be used doesn't mean it should be used. I think that's a ⁓ misconception in the industry. So it's just about speed. It's about doing it right and doing it right the first time. So that's that's all good stuff. So all right. Well, let's let's call a few things out right and talk about common spec mistakes. Right. So in your and we can sure we can talk about some really wacky stuff that ⁓ just
Jay Whitaker: Yeah.
Matthew Magro: comes out of nowhere. Maybe I'm pointing to military specs. My brain goes to quite a few things that get really weird really fast. what is the most common specification mistake that you come to see when it comes to the 096723 spec?
Jay Whitaker: Okay. One of the things that I first see when I start looking at it is that a lot of either designers, engineers, or architects, they do a lot of copy and pasting. So what they're doing is they're taking something that maybe an older spec that has been used in the past, and ⁓ as stated, the military is probably the one that I see the most of this happening, that they copy and paste. Well, these specifications ⁓ don't have them the up-to-date standards. A lot of these standards nowadays are, sit ⁓ on committees with ASTM and ICRI and AMPPP, what happens is ⁓ we constantly updating standards. ⁓ So happens is you'll have ⁓ a or an architect or engineer ⁓ copy paste that ⁓ specification ⁓ and what's happening is you're looking at something, for them to say, we're gonna be doing this. This is, ⁓ you look at, start looking at every piece going through a standard, ⁓ kind of gotta start reviewing each step. And I do that quite often ⁓ a lot of the contractors, especially, and I just did it ⁓ recently with a contractor ⁓ a military spec. We start going through ⁓ we start seeing things that testing, ⁓ we going to be doing testing that's gonna damage the floor. during the application. How do we get material in? Who's in charge of the lighting? ⁓ a lot of little pieces. A lot of times when the contractor or when the job starts, It's never brought up too often in the specification. It actually will need to come up in the pre-job meetings. we start, once it's awarded and it goes through the pre-job meetings, you start finding out that, okay, well, this thing's not going to be, you know, it's not going to have the actual in-use application for lighting. So what kind of lighting will we have? Well, we need to, who's going to take care of that lighting? That's, that's one of the biggest one I see as far as a mistake that a contractor can make is not get dialing in right away. on what kind of lighting is going to be available during it. there's lighting for there's a technical guide 12 that states that for mobilization of product for staging, you need one type of, know, you need one step for lighting. need also lighting for ⁓ a of different So for testing even for applications. So that's one that I see when I start going through a specification. But then there start looking at some of these old and you can see it right off right off the bat that maybe this they're calling out calling out a when in fact it's a trial down ⁓ so ⁓ they ⁓ see ⁓ start stating that it's going to be to broadcast there's going to be two layers of a broadcast ⁓ and then all of sudden you get down a little further when it starts talking about the submittals ⁓ and then you find that ⁓ wow okay it looks like ⁓ it's going to be at a certain thickness that and it starts showing that you're going to actually be needing a ⁓ down system versus a broadcast system. So my thought is always once you start reviewing this you can almost start ⁓ really finding ⁓ lot of flaws. Now a lot of times the contractor will allow you to come back. I know on this one specific case that I'm speaking about I every up, shared it with the contractor, he goes back and he has a moment to put those back to the owner and then they will respond. Well with those timely responses, what comes back is they pretty much leave it in your, as far what testing you want to do, daily job reports, ⁓ safety, ⁓ a of come into play that need to be ⁓ responded to prior just starting that job. I hope I didn't go too far in the weeds on that, ⁓ ⁓
Matthew Magro: No, no, that's good. I'd love to get your opinion on this. mean, ⁓ about mock-ups? ⁓ There's a lot to be said there. Should mock-ups, in your opinion, be ⁓ for decorative systems or even solid stuff? I mean, what's thoughts there?
Jay Whitaker: Mmm. For the contractor safety, mock-ups should be mandatory, period. They should be not just for the design, but also for slip resistance. I mean, a lot of times for thickness, we can verify so much by the mock-up to what is going to be the final results. So my thought has always been for the protection of the contract. See, 27 years I was a contractor, okay? I've been in the technical in this thing about 10, 12 years. But for the contractor's protection, he should, I think they should be mandatory. should, the contractor should advise in that direction so that they can complete a mock-up. ⁓ what happens is we want signatures. Let's verify, ⁓ do our testing on the mock-up. ⁓ do, ⁓ get some photos. Let's confirm colors. Let's confirm, even from that you can do a bot 3000 test which allows us to confirm slip resistance. So we can do so much testing just from the mock-up. We can confirm thickness. We can confirm if especially with the mock-up that's done on site. Now that that's really where I'd want to go with that. Let's create that on site ⁓ that we can confirm ⁓ strength. We can confirm bond strength. We can confirm you know ⁓ we do some moisture testing. mean mock-ups tell so much from a smaller scale, but it allows the owner to get a glimpse into where we're about to go. And also it gives confidence to the contractor that, okay, I've taken care of everything. I've got a sign off here. You approve it. And now we can move forward. And I have the confidence that each step that I'm going to take ⁓ moving forward and keep in mind a lot of these times, especially in a, an industrial environment, you You've got lot of other trades going around you. mean, you've got dust flying around. You've got silica dust. You've got so many other contractors overhead working. very difficult for the flooring contractor ⁓ ⁓ where he's about to go into to make sure. And then it shows ⁓ that stage, look, that mock-up, this is where, this is the finish. This is our finished product. This is how we're going to do it. ⁓ then that's from the contractor perspective. perspective, he needs to apply that mock-up just like he's going to do in the field for the larger scale of the application. are those are some things I see and then just having that sign-off allows to show, okay, we needed one day for this. We needed, we had, used a polyaspartic on one of these coats so we were able to get it done in six hours. It starts to show the timeline that's going to be required also for the installation. ⁓ of that product.
Matthew Magro: You know, that's 100 % accurate. I mean, at the end of the day, it's really meant to serve as an setter ⁓ a way to clearly communicate so that there are no surprises by the time that you truly get boots on ground and you're there to install and perform the work. So that's good.
Jay Whitaker: Yes? Yes, and setting that expectation is crucial so that you don't get into the job and then all of a sudden they're like, wow, we didn't know what this was going to be. So, setting the expectation is the key to all of it. Plus, you can, and it actually gives them the comfort level that where they are, they've made the right decision as well.
Matthew Magro: That's right. That's good. Well, before we get into some rapid fire questions, be doing the people listening and then you a if ⁓ I even ask. Where are you right now? What are you doing? What's your role? Tell me about APN.
Jay Whitaker: Okay, APN is a 100 year old coding manufacturer out of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. We have acquired Pure Epoxy and we've also acquired ResTech in the last three years. am the technical director ⁓ APN. I work on commercial, and residential. My role is to basically monitor other reps. ⁓ I also am the ⁓ sample department. ⁓ work as a resource for the sales department. ⁓ you know, we are opening a, we have just basically in the last ⁓ year a half, two years started a flooring division. So it has been ⁓ great for It's been, when I decided to ⁓ step into this role, ⁓ I saw there was so much opportunity to build something from the ground level. ⁓ I knew was going to be difficult. ⁓ and I love those challenges. So that was one of the things that I saw that was about to come my way by accepting this role. And one of the big things I will tell you is I do want to tout real quick our ACE training program. We have an ACE training program that is just more than anything, is a role, it's a kind of an on the job training, if you will. All right. It's not that we are wanting to say that putting a product down on boards and those type of trainings are not valid. They are and they're very well needed in this industry. we wanted to go a different direction. We provide a two and a half day training that where the contractor comes in and it's for those, it's for both. It's for your contractors that are learning the way and the ones that are not learning that have not don't know the basics of ⁓ installations or mixing or you know or they want to take a step into a different role from maybe a commercial environment to an industrial environment. We want to help those contractors make that change and not just that we are also wanting to help the experienced contractors that have been doing this 20 years. We want to provide them kind of a throughput optimization where we can help them whether it be through product knowledge whether it be through through mixing application technique or equipment used to be more efficient. We want to really partner with them. kind of about the training itself, we are doing an on the job training, a hands-on training. And we really thought it to be a critical because it of it bridges the gap between that theoretical knowledge and practical application, which allows that applicator to kind of acquire a different set of skills, if you will. you know, to be faster and retain information better through that ⁓ it's kind of an active engagement if you will. You're actually got that trial in your hand or you're throwing something that material into the Hippo ⁓ or mixing ⁓ through TruMix machine. I mean there's a lot of things there. ⁓ So kind of builds that confidence. It improves, let's say, problem-solving skills ⁓ when you're on the job kind of a real world look at kind of those scenarios that take place, but it also allows you to be safe when doing it. We push safety it lets the contractors make those corrections kind of in those in that controlled environment. They see it whether it like we just had one and we had amine blush come to take place. ⁓ So allowed the contractors to see real live scenario of an amine blush. Now granted we created it so they would see it ⁓ and we wanted to get in there and kind of let them see how we correct this. What is this next step? What is it? What is a mean blush? You know, some of them didn't even know. So I will state that we're very excited about the training that we're providing. We just did our very first one, our inaugural training. We had three or four contractors and we had their employees to come and take part in this. see this as being a stepping stone for a lot of these contractors, ⁓ and or new to this industry, ⁓ take a leap of faith into, wow, we're going to leave here with a confidence from what we've learned. And it's not just, ⁓ you know, learning the hands-on part. We actually have classes where we're going through, we're going through the standards. We're going to explain moisture. We're going to explain our not product line. It's not just about our product. Well, of course, we talk about our product, but it's about helping build those for the future. We want these future applicators to, we want to pay it forward. We want to push all that forward. So I came in here and that was one of the things that was on ⁓ list to kind of, because that's what keeps me passionate every day, ⁓ that we want to build this industry and create an industry where
Matthew Magro: Yeah.
Jay Whitaker: that everyone's successful. We want to partner with these guys. so AP has been a, APN is a manufacturer that has really, really, really taken ⁓ a hold far as looking at partnering. want to, we take it serious. We care about what these ⁓ applicators are doing. when I say a partner, it's not just a financial partnership. It's a ⁓ I think you can identify, you've known me for almost a decade now, we're there. We are, from a technical perspective, we want to be above and beyond just ⁓ our ⁓ We to be there that ⁓ if phone's gonna ring at night, ⁓ most guys are working at night, especially in the industrial world, commercial world. We work at night, we work on weekends, we work on holidays. So we have a presence. where we're going to be there for you. We're going to answer that phone. We're going to fly out there. We're going to be on site with you to help you and be there ⁓ you need anything because sometimes at night it's hard to find that guy ⁓ give you that information that's going to help you get off that job. Well, ⁓ where we come in. We're going to be there. We're going to answer that phone. We're going to be on site if you need it and we're going to help you ⁓ successful. So I mean to go long-winded on that one, but There's a lot to unpack there for myself as this is ⁓ new that I have stepped into ⁓ June. So I'm really excited. We've got some of the best-sell staff. We are here at APN. We are here to make a difference. You know, just financially, ⁓ but to build and make a difference for those who want it. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: No. Well, that's good. mean, I just had someone I just had a conversation with someone about this ⁓ this week actually and things like that ⁓ like a concerted effort behind building up industry with a focus on education. ⁓ So much of that gets overlooked and it's just product product product. But at the end of the day, if everyone in this entire scope of work knows more and is more proficient, that stuff compounds that stuff makes
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓
Matthew Magro: a difference and it kind of translates and pushes through the entire footprint. Every install, every architect, every general contractor, it's about actually having the knowledge. So, ⁓ well that's great. ⁓ I'm excited, unbiasedly, to kind of do more things with you guys. So, ⁓ alright, let's a quick lightning round, ⁓ one or sentence answers. ⁓
Jay Whitaker: the trends. That's right. Okay. ⁓ hope we'd love that. Okay? Okay.
Matthew Magro: For just a good way to kind of cap things off. Kin epoxy crack.
Jay Whitaker: Gotcha. Yes, it can crack from a lot of different things from temperature and also from just cracks underneath it transfers through the it's a very rigid product. It's a very rigid product. Yes.
Matthew Magro: Okay. Adversely, can epoxy stop cracks?
Jay Whitaker: Yes, on how it's used within like epoxy injection and or flexible epoxies. They both do great job in mitigating crack repair.
Matthew Magro: How about tile? Can epoxy go over tile?
Jay Whitaker: We're not really recommending epoxy to go over tile, but I do know that it can go over tile, yes.
Matthew Magro: And how about millage? Is thickness always better?
Jay Whitaker: Thickness is not always better. It depends on ⁓ the environment that it's going to be used at. But thickness does transmit into abrasion resistance ⁓ abuse as far as how ⁓ damage and how much abuse that flooring surface can take. Yes.
Matthew Magro: Yeah. And can all resinous flooring systems be installed over a green concrete?
Jay Whitaker: No, most green concretes 30 days ⁓ when we say green that's because there's moisture in there that has to come out. ⁓ we recommend you have breathable products ⁓ or you want to use something that is moisture tolerant. ⁓ there are specific products like urethane cement and MVBs ⁓ are epoxy can go over ⁓ green concrete.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's good. in closing, ⁓ the end of the day, resonance flooring isn't ⁓ about a specific manufacturer ⁓ product or a way to install. Insert phrase here, right? It's a system. ⁓ And we about, any good specification are just... You know templates, they should be intentional. There's reasons behind all those things. So I hope this was beneficial. Some things we dug deeper into than others and some of this might be like I mentioned before commonplace and elementary to some people but from doing I don't know, collectively, probably hundreds of luncheon learns now. It's not as common as we think. And so any information in education, like we just mentioned, is needed. So Jay, man, like you mentioned, have known you for quite some time. I'd give you the shirt off my back. I really appreciate you coming on and bringing the side of the industry to the conversation. It means a lot. I it.
Jay Whitaker: absolutely Matthew and we appreciate all that you've done in the industry. just I remember you ⁓ a ago and just the strive, you know, striving that you've done to be ⁓ an important just play an important role ⁓ in this is amazing. So, you know, you kind of asked ⁓ earlier and share with you my passion is seeing guys like you take the industry by storm ⁓ and then make difference, you know, make a difference in the industry. and it's hard to find guys like that and you're just one of those guys. So thank you for letting me just be part of this. I really appreciate it.
Matthew Magro: Well, I appreciate you Fran for anyone else that's listening. If you've got something out of this episode, share it with someone in the trades who appreciates the detail behind the work. And until next time, this is covering the industry. Have a great day.
Jay Whitaker: Well, thank you and good morning, Matthew. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: Good morning, good morning. Absolutely. to preface this, we're not going to spend 45 minutes going over SSCP and AMP search. We're not going to go through ASTM standards and just recite literature at people. You joke because I feel like we've had to memorize quite a few of those things in our time. ⁓ And there's doubt that you've got a lot of those in your brain. But I am that you're here.
Jay Whitaker: Okay. Thank you.
Matthew Magro: ⁓ And it's because this topic specifically the deeper you go the more complicated it can get So today we're gonna go we're gonna talk about different types of epoxy floor systems Where those systems actually belong? And something every contractor has wrestled with at some point which is working through and with specifications because sometimes specs are great and sometimes they create more problems than they solve so Let's start the basics
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Magro: ⁓ When someone says resinous flooring, what do you think that they're talking about versus what it actually means in the industry?
Jay Whitaker: A lot of times people believe that they are speaking about just a liquid applied flooring. They don't know what that liquid is, but they are looking at some type of liquid, maybe a poured type flooring, something that they may have seen at Home Depot or Lowe's. just from that alone, I think some people, when they say resinous flooring, they really don't know what they're doing. I mean, or what they're wanting to, what that is. You know, they may not even know what that is.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's right. That makes a lot of sense because once you start breaking it down, there's a huge range of systems under the umbrella, right? mean, thin mills, self-levelers, quartz flakes, urethane cements. when you start getting into some of those more detailed things, and you we won't go super into the weeds here today, but even more chemical resistant systems, vinyl and Novalax and MMAs, you can get deep into the weeds pretty quickly.
Jay Whitaker: ⁓ yes. That's right. Well, a lot of times, breaded somersaulting really as a whole, you know, it's kind of like a... guess if you wanted to look at it, it's a durable, seamless... I guess a lot of things, the parts that play part of that is like a hygienic surface that's applied. And a lot of times it is a liquid. It is a ⁓ liquid that goes down. And they're used, know, lot of people know Epoxys, Urethanes, MMAs, because they're really the best for when we start getting into an industrial or commercial ⁓ environment. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, what's it what that's interesting because a lot of people probably look at those systems and just think well It's epoxy it it should all perform the same but but obviously it doesn't
Jay Whitaker: No, it doesn't. There's key advantages for each one, whether it be high resistant to impact or chemicals, abrasion, heat. I mean, there's so many things that has to come into play before you would want to make a recommendation and just say, hey, we're going to put resinous flooring down. If you look at specs, see that resinous flooring tab in the 9700s, you start looking at that spec and you start realizing it's resinous flooring. But then as you look deeper into the spec, sometimes it holds different type of ⁓ environment and you have to kind of dig into what you're looking at versus just a standard ⁓ specification.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, no, that's good. Would you agree that, you know, chemical resistance and texture, thermal shock, ⁓ elongation, ⁓ a of those characteristics are misunderstood for people, for most systems?
Jay Whitaker: Absolutely they are. Absolutely they are. mean if you really start looking at okay so you start breaking down chemistries. I don't want to get deep in the weeds but you have epoxies. They're kind of known for ⁓ adhesion because of their tensile strength. Then you have urethanes. They're as they're I mean they're really for top coats to protect the the base coats and then you have urethane cements. know they they supply a durable they're in heavy duty areas. where we need moisture mitigation, where we need thermal shock. Then you have a methamethacrylate. It's a fast cure acrylic based chemistry. you have a polyaspartic. You have so many chemistries ⁓ then to put together when you start like really putting together that system, ⁓ know, it's all of all of the things that I just mentioned there. It's all to protect the asset. The asset being the concrete and all have a different purpose. Not you can't just pick one chemistry and say ⁓ yeah this is the one we want to use and ⁓ going to do all the things that we need when in fact that is not the case.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, no, that's good. Well, you kind of read my mind here. Let's talk about environment for a minute and matching the system to that environment. Because in my opinion, the most common ⁓ failure isn't necessarily the installation, though that can be a factor. It's choosing the wrong system for the environment in the first place, right? So when you're evaluating a project, what's the first questions you ask yourself before recommending a system overall?
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. I want to as far as the environment, it going to be a, it a production? Is it a wet area? Does it need thermal shock? Does need moisture mitigation? There's a lot of parts that come into those questions that we need to be asking. Is there an active vapor barrier present? that I look at as far as okay and not just the basis of like what the system and where it's going is but what are we looking at as far as the aesthetics? Are we looking at something decorative? Are we looking at something functional? Are we looking at something that's going to require lot of maintenance? ⁓ Is maintenance ⁓ to be part of the decision making? Because that plays a big part of the decisions of what system they really want to use whether ⁓ is slip resistance required. Where are we with that? And that actually falls back into wet So some of those things that when you start really asking some questions, ⁓ it get, you you really have to have some strict answers and some final answers to make a ⁓ good recommendation that we meet all those, so that we're able to ⁓ hit all those you know, all those ⁓ things that we to, you know, the answers to those, those questions. Absolutely.
Matthew Magro: No. That's good. It's funny. I know you enough to know that when you're describing these even answering questions that you've got Hundreds horror stories that back up what you're saying and why you're saying it Sadly, that's a ⁓ nature of beast The reason people understand what to use and and why not to use something else is because they've seen it fail or take a hard left turn in the past So well, let's let's run through a real-world example, right? Say we're looking at a commercial kitchen. You've hot wash down
Jay Whitaker: Yes. Yes. Okay.
Matthew Magro: grease, aggressive cleaning chemicals, constant cleaning, thermal cycling from equipment, right? So ⁓ what standard systems tend to struggle with in that environment compared to something like ⁓ a urethane cement or a trial-grade mortar for that matter?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, one of the things that struggle in that type of environment is ⁓ thermal shock. Thermal shock and the aggressive chemicals that are used during the maintenance part of it. So a lot of times, what is the maintenance program? I always like to dig into ⁓ is going to be the maintenance program that is set forth for this space. And then as well as that, tell me about the cleaning procedures. So we kind of want to dig into the chemicals that are going to be used on the surface. go in there and you put the wrong product in, all of a sudden what happens is, and is it going to be considered a wet area? What we say is it going to be continuously wet? often are we going to have these wash downs? ⁓ that we can understand when we're making the recommendation that when that product is set ⁓ forth, let's that you put an epoxy in there ⁓ or you something in there, well, epoxies break down at about 150 degrees. Most epoxies, not all of them, but the majority of them. ⁓ And so when you start having hot water washdowns, even on top of a urethane cement, what will happen is you have epoxies that start breaking down under certain temperatures. ⁓ They down basically at a 200 degree or 180 degree washdown ⁓ and start creating a pop out and then they reform as they dry and then these little areas will pop out and then they collect dirt. So now we have a hygiene issue. So we have something that a hygienic concern. So if you make ⁓ a bad recommendation and you put the wrong product in there for the environment that it's supposed to be used as or designed as, going to happen is you're going to create other issues. So now, and especially in that environment where, let's say, a commercial kitchen is involved, ⁓ don't want those hygienic concerns take place. So you've got to be very careful when you start making a recommendation ⁓ of type of product you're going to use as the top code. because if it stays wet, we don't want to really use a thin film product as our surface coat because thin mills, all it takes is a pinhole and now we've got an issue of loss of adhesion. So I mean there's a lot of things that come into play for that type of environment and hopefully I answered your question regards to what we need to be paying attention to.
Matthew Magro: That's right. Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, let's flip the scenario. Instead of a kitchen, imagine something like a corridor. Totally different ⁓ use right? Is there ever a situation where a flooring system is technically strong enough, but still the wrong choice? Maybe in a matter of maintenance or rolling loads or even ergonomics.
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. Depending on, well if it's a hallway, let's say they have AVG's where they actually you've got automated vehicles that are up and down that walkway. We want to take into concern or into retrospect, we want to examine what kind of wheels are going to be on there. Are they metal wheels? Are we talking about rubber wheels? What's the point loads? What is the weight of the vehicle? often does it travel up and down that walk or that corridor? ⁓ How often or is it very heavy foot traffic? Is it considered or it just a bypass corridor that people rarely use? So those are things that can kind of come into play that will kind of Will lead us down the path of making the best recommendation It could just be that we want to use a poly aspartic as a top coat ⁓ or it be that we need to Depending on what's traveling up and down that corridor ⁓ if we have going on may want to use a Novalac epoxy and or we just may want to use a chemical resistant urethane. ⁓ we'd like to know everything we can about what comes into contact with the surface of the floor. Not just the foot traffic, ⁓ ⁓ much foot traffic and if there's going to be any chemicals or anything that can come in contact with that surface so that we can make sure that what top coat is recommended ⁓ actually going to be the one that ⁓ going to perform ⁓ it was designed for that area.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's great. Let's get inside. shift gears a little bit. Let's get into something that every contractor, and to be honest with you, every manufacturer has opinions about. That's specifications. Specs can be complicated. Sometimes they're copied from a project 10 years ago.
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Matthew Magro: Sometimes they're dated in a different way and sometimes they're written around a very specific manufacturer, right? So when you see a spec that you know probably won't perform long-term, how do you generally approach recommending an alternate without creating unnecessary friction on a project?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, well what we'll do is if looking at a product and we know that that product either has ⁓ put by the wayside or they have pulled something in and we're looking for an alternate ⁓ some of the things that we do look at is going to come into play, is going to be the technical characteristics of the floor. We want to see where our compressive strengths are because we want to get something comparable. We're not wanting to just ⁓ put in there because we feel like, ⁓ this is what we want. We want to be comparable to what they have the designers, whether it be an architect or an engineer, is expecting. ⁓ we kind of, want to dig into our compressive strengths, tensile strength, ⁓ abrasion resistance, ⁓ the flexural strength, you know, as far as its movement, bond strength, flammability. ⁓ is so many things that come into play with that specification so that when we go into it, we are wanting to maybe switch the product out. ⁓ still want to be comparable as a as or what we call an as or equal change of product.
Matthew Magro: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. Easier said than done, sometimes there's a resistance there for sure. what something that causes more floor failures than almost anything else? Not always, it's not exclusive, right? But moisture. In your experience, how often is moisture testing skipped and ⁓ underestimated commercial projects?
Jay Whitaker: Mmm. often I would ⁓ I don't want to say it in ⁓ a joking way, but quite often moisture testing, I do see it a lot in specs, ⁓ but they're making a recommendation for a specification for whether it be, ⁓ let's the building doesn't have a controlled environment. Well, one of the testing methods we wouldn't want to use at that point would be the calcium chloride test what we call, and I don't want to get into all the technical jargon, but it would be the ASDM 1869. So that would lead us down. I mean, there's two real testing methods for moisture, which is the 1869 and the 2170. One is a dynamic test, the calcium chloride, but it's a longer test. takes 60 to 72 hours. The building has to be acclimated for 48 hours. There are things that take place before the testing can be done. Plus, more than anything, we need to know
Matthew Magro: Thank
Jay Whitaker: one thing from the very beginning, is there an active vapor barrier present under this slab? there's not, then we definitely want to possibly at that moment consider a cement because they have a higher tolerance for moisture and most of them work as a reservoir system where they pull that moisture up, they ⁓ contain it ⁓ and everything on the surface ⁓ of urethane cement you can put whatever you want at that point. You can put an MMA, an epoxy, decorative system. You can go into different aesthetics. I mean, so many things come into play at that, but moisture is... it is like ⁓ one thing that people overlook and don't give it much thought, ⁓ there is something that's driving that moisture in a space where it's controlled, so you definitely need to be aware of it, absolutely.
Matthew Magro: That's good. Well, in your opinion out what? At what vapor moisture vapor emission rate or you know, realistically relative humidity level. Do you immediately start recommending moisture mitigation systems?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, so that's a good question. can go and now in the flooring, ⁓ residence flooring, we look at that 75 to 80. ⁓ we start getting anything and when I say 80%, let's say let's work in percentages and in pounds. One is anything over three pounds. The standard industry for basically a standard epoxy or conventional epoxy, anything above three pounds is where we start considering looking at moisture mitigation. Now that for the 1869, which is an ASTM standard set forth ⁓ is testing with using a calcium chloride. ⁓ that is ⁓ anything above three pounds begins to alarm or set off alarms that we need to do moisture mitigation. ⁓ Then you an RH test, which is relative humidity testing, which actually gives us the total amount of moisture within the slab as far as a vapor percentage and it starts getting at 75 to 80 now flooring for like VCT not resinous flooring, but you start looking at VCT and vinyl and Carpet and wood and things like that. They're working about 75 % We start looking at it about 80 % anything above 80 % that sends up an alarm and that's the 2170 that's ASTM 2170 that's the use of an incintiube tube drilled into the substrate at a certain depth depending on the thickness of the slab that will send to us the temperature or sent to the contractor whoever's doing the testing it'll tell them the temperature of the slab as well as it'll tell them the percentage of moisture and that is a 24 test and that gives you a percentage ⁓ of the moisture throughout the slab. So they do not correlate. The calcium chloride test and the RAH testing, they're not correlated. One's a dynamic testing, the other one's testing for ⁓ relative humidity within the slab.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's good. Well, might be commonplace, but do you explain CSP and in truly proper surface prep to owners or GCs rather that just see it as extra time and extra cost, right? Cause that's the other side of the coin. We can handle with the environmental's and all of the specifics that pertain to the substrate prior to putting something down on the floor. But I mean, in flooring, regardless of the actual scope of work, knows the phrase surface prep is the job. There's some you cannot skip. what's your opinion on doing it right and verifying why that needs to actually take place per the system that's going down?
Jay Whitaker: Okay, so each system and pretty much on everyone's, every manufacturer has a surface profile recommendation. It's in a range. It could be from two to three, ⁓ to four, three to five. ⁓ so what that does is that allows the ⁓ ⁓ understand that each concrete surface profile, which is also known as CSP, what it is for that system that's being installed. for each product. So what we want to do is we try to with each contractor that if you want to cut the corner and not provide the actual concrete service profile that's recommended and really I guess understanding what that concrete service profile is. ⁓ depth, it's the distance between the valley and the peak of that of the concrete from ⁓ That's how it's measured. That's how you get these how it's defined from a CSP 1 2 & 3 There's a few more fingers sticking up and it's the when I say the fingers that are sticking up it's the part of the concrete of the profile and that profile is measured from the top of that Peak the bottom of that valley and that distance is how we determine the CSP now all that said each product has its ⁓ own Every system will have its own CSP recommendation and as I stated it's in a range. So ⁓ want to make sure that they understand that if you're just going for a CSP one or two we can look at grinding. We may want to ⁓ of all do a Maw's hardness test to determine the hardness of the concrete. ⁓ assist the contractor to understand what type of tooling he's going to need when he gets onto the job site. ⁓ then he's not burning up diamonds. So then at that point we are creating a profile through the grinding method. Then you start getting into something a little more in depth where we start getting into high build systems from like 10 to 40 mils and then we start getting into ⁓ eighth systems and then so you're looking at maybe a three to five at that point. ⁓ So start changing but if you look at any manufacturer, coding manufacturers, whether it be a technical data sheet, an ⁓ application guide, a product data sheet, it should give you a range for CSP. Now all of that said and you can determine what that is, it tells you what it is, we want to know how to achieve it. Well, we go through ICRI. ICRI, also have methods of the ⁓ SSPC NAISC. ⁓ They also both of those work in combination to determine how we're going to achieve that CSP and then what that CSP should be. So ⁓ always tell everybody you need to really understand not just what CSP is and understanding the surface prep, but how are we going to achieve it and then what tooling are we going to use to achieve it? What can we use? What's the most efficient? What's the most effective? Well, you want to use ⁓ tooling that's going to be the most efficient. You don't want to be out there ⁓ than you should be. So you kind of need to be in what tooling needs to be used and then also what we're trying to achieve and how to get there. ⁓ So would be ⁓ one I would state about that. Contractors as a whole ⁓ need understand that that CSP is going to provide ⁓ the system installed As it was designed to be ⁓ so it will perform at its peak performance It will it's just like anything else you want to give it its most optimal opportunity to perform as it was designed by the manufacturer and we have provided in almost every case from a distributor or from a manufacturer standpoint we have provided what the CSP should be so sometimes some We need a CSP 3-5. They use grinding methods. That is not possible. You cannot achieve a CSP 3-5 by grinding unless you were using bush hammers and then you could. But the majority is would be shot blast. So that would be one case is what I say. I see a lot of the guys using the wrong tooling, the wrong equipment for CSP 3-5 or 3-6 versus that 1 and 2 where we can get away with grinding. And I hope I didn't get too deep in the weeds on that Matthew.
Matthew Magro: No, no, got to stay true to the the title of the episode. That's good stuff. So I mean ⁓ that just just because something can be used doesn't mean it should be used. I think that's a ⁓ misconception in the industry. So it's just about speed. It's about doing it right and doing it right the first time. So that's that's all good stuff. So all right. Well, let's let's call a few things out right and talk about common spec mistakes. Right. So in your and we can sure we can talk about some really wacky stuff that ⁓ just
Jay Whitaker: Yeah.
Matthew Magro: comes out of nowhere. Maybe I'm pointing to military specs. My brain goes to quite a few things that get really weird really fast. what is the most common specification mistake that you come to see when it comes to the 096723 spec?
Jay Whitaker: Okay. One of the things that I first see when I start looking at it is that a lot of either designers, engineers, or architects, they do a lot of copy and pasting. So what they're doing is they're taking something that maybe an older spec that has been used in the past, and ⁓ as stated, the military is probably the one that I see the most of this happening, that they copy and paste. Well, these specifications ⁓ don't have them the up-to-date standards. A lot of these standards nowadays are, sit ⁓ on committees with ASTM and ICRI and AMPPP, what happens is ⁓ we constantly updating standards. ⁓ So happens is you'll have ⁓ a or an architect or engineer ⁓ copy paste that ⁓ specification ⁓ and what's happening is you're looking at something, for them to say, we're gonna be doing this. This is, ⁓ you look at, start looking at every piece going through a standard, ⁓ kind of gotta start reviewing each step. And I do that quite often ⁓ a lot of the contractors, especially, and I just did it ⁓ recently with a contractor ⁓ a military spec. We start going through ⁓ we start seeing things that testing, ⁓ we going to be doing testing that's gonna damage the floor. during the application. How do we get material in? Who's in charge of the lighting? ⁓ a lot of little pieces. A lot of times when the contractor or when the job starts, It's never brought up too often in the specification. It actually will need to come up in the pre-job meetings. we start, once it's awarded and it goes through the pre-job meetings, you start finding out that, okay, well, this thing's not going to be, you know, it's not going to have the actual in-use application for lighting. So what kind of lighting will we have? Well, we need to, who's going to take care of that lighting? That's, that's one of the biggest one I see as far as a mistake that a contractor can make is not get dialing in right away. on what kind of lighting is going to be available during it. there's lighting for there's a technical guide 12 that states that for mobilization of product for staging, you need one type of, know, you need one step for lighting. need also lighting for ⁓ a of different So for testing even for applications. So that's one that I see when I start going through a specification. But then there start looking at some of these old and you can see it right off right off the bat that maybe this they're calling out calling out a when in fact it's a trial down ⁓ so ⁓ they ⁓ see ⁓ start stating that it's going to be to broadcast there's going to be two layers of a broadcast ⁓ and then all of sudden you get down a little further when it starts talking about the submittals ⁓ and then you find that ⁓ wow okay it looks like ⁓ it's going to be at a certain thickness that and it starts showing that you're going to actually be needing a ⁓ down system versus a broadcast system. So my thought is always once you start reviewing this you can almost start ⁓ really finding ⁓ lot of flaws. Now a lot of times the contractor will allow you to come back. I know on this one specific case that I'm speaking about I every up, shared it with the contractor, he goes back and he has a moment to put those back to the owner and then they will respond. Well with those timely responses, what comes back is they pretty much leave it in your, as far what testing you want to do, daily job reports, ⁓ safety, ⁓ a of come into play that need to be ⁓ responded to prior just starting that job. I hope I didn't go too far in the weeds on that, ⁓ ⁓
Matthew Magro: No, no, that's good. I'd love to get your opinion on this. mean, ⁓ about mock-ups? ⁓ There's a lot to be said there. Should mock-ups, in your opinion, be ⁓ for decorative systems or even solid stuff? I mean, what's thoughts there?
Jay Whitaker: Mmm. For the contractor safety, mock-ups should be mandatory, period. They should be not just for the design, but also for slip resistance. I mean, a lot of times for thickness, we can verify so much by the mock-up to what is going to be the final results. So my thought has always been for the protection of the contract. See, 27 years I was a contractor, okay? I've been in the technical in this thing about 10, 12 years. But for the contractor's protection, he should, I think they should be mandatory. should, the contractor should advise in that direction so that they can complete a mock-up. ⁓ what happens is we want signatures. Let's verify, ⁓ do our testing on the mock-up. ⁓ do, ⁓ get some photos. Let's confirm colors. Let's confirm, even from that you can do a bot 3000 test which allows us to confirm slip resistance. So we can do so much testing just from the mock-up. We can confirm thickness. We can confirm if especially with the mock-up that's done on site. Now that that's really where I'd want to go with that. Let's create that on site ⁓ that we can confirm ⁓ strength. We can confirm bond strength. We can confirm you know ⁓ we do some moisture testing. mean mock-ups tell so much from a smaller scale, but it allows the owner to get a glimpse into where we're about to go. And also it gives confidence to the contractor that, okay, I've taken care of everything. I've got a sign off here. You approve it. And now we can move forward. And I have the confidence that each step that I'm going to take ⁓ moving forward and keep in mind a lot of these times, especially in a, an industrial environment, you You've got lot of other trades going around you. mean, you've got dust flying around. You've got silica dust. You've got so many other contractors overhead working. very difficult for the flooring contractor ⁓ ⁓ where he's about to go into to make sure. And then it shows ⁓ that stage, look, that mock-up, this is where, this is the finish. This is our finished product. This is how we're going to do it. ⁓ then that's from the contractor perspective. perspective, he needs to apply that mock-up just like he's going to do in the field for the larger scale of the application. are those are some things I see and then just having that sign-off allows to show, okay, we needed one day for this. We needed, we had, used a polyaspartic on one of these coats so we were able to get it done in six hours. It starts to show the timeline that's going to be required also for the installation. ⁓ of that product.
Matthew Magro: You know, that's 100 % accurate. I mean, at the end of the day, it's really meant to serve as an setter ⁓ a way to clearly communicate so that there are no surprises by the time that you truly get boots on ground and you're there to install and perform the work. So that's good.
Jay Whitaker: Yes? Yes, and setting that expectation is crucial so that you don't get into the job and then all of a sudden they're like, wow, we didn't know what this was going to be. So, setting the expectation is the key to all of it. Plus, you can, and it actually gives them the comfort level that where they are, they've made the right decision as well.
Matthew Magro: That's right. That's good. Well, before we get into some rapid fire questions, be doing the people listening and then you a if ⁓ I even ask. Where are you right now? What are you doing? What's your role? Tell me about APN.
Jay Whitaker: Okay, APN is a 100 year old coding manufacturer out of Oshkosh, Wisconsin. We have acquired Pure Epoxy and we've also acquired ResTech in the last three years. am the technical director ⁓ APN. I work on commercial, and residential. My role is to basically monitor other reps. ⁓ I also am the ⁓ sample department. ⁓ work as a resource for the sales department. ⁓ you know, we are opening a, we have just basically in the last ⁓ year a half, two years started a flooring division. So it has been ⁓ great for It's been, when I decided to ⁓ step into this role, ⁓ I saw there was so much opportunity to build something from the ground level. ⁓ I knew was going to be difficult. ⁓ and I love those challenges. So that was one of the things that I saw that was about to come my way by accepting this role. And one of the big things I will tell you is I do want to tout real quick our ACE training program. We have an ACE training program that is just more than anything, is a role, it's a kind of an on the job training, if you will. All right. It's not that we are wanting to say that putting a product down on boards and those type of trainings are not valid. They are and they're very well needed in this industry. we wanted to go a different direction. We provide a two and a half day training that where the contractor comes in and it's for those, it's for both. It's for your contractors that are learning the way and the ones that are not learning that have not don't know the basics of ⁓ installations or mixing or you know or they want to take a step into a different role from maybe a commercial environment to an industrial environment. We want to help those contractors make that change and not just that we are also wanting to help the experienced contractors that have been doing this 20 years. We want to provide them kind of a throughput optimization where we can help them whether it be through product knowledge whether it be through through mixing application technique or equipment used to be more efficient. We want to really partner with them. kind of about the training itself, we are doing an on the job training, a hands-on training. And we really thought it to be a critical because it of it bridges the gap between that theoretical knowledge and practical application, which allows that applicator to kind of acquire a different set of skills, if you will. you know, to be faster and retain information better through that ⁓ it's kind of an active engagement if you will. You're actually got that trial in your hand or you're throwing something that material into the Hippo ⁓ or mixing ⁓ through TruMix machine. I mean there's a lot of things there. ⁓ So kind of builds that confidence. It improves, let's say, problem-solving skills ⁓ when you're on the job kind of a real world look at kind of those scenarios that take place, but it also allows you to be safe when doing it. We push safety it lets the contractors make those corrections kind of in those in that controlled environment. They see it whether it like we just had one and we had amine blush come to take place. ⁓ So allowed the contractors to see real live scenario of an amine blush. Now granted we created it so they would see it ⁓ and we wanted to get in there and kind of let them see how we correct this. What is this next step? What is it? What is a mean blush? You know, some of them didn't even know. So I will state that we're very excited about the training that we're providing. We just did our very first one, our inaugural training. We had three or four contractors and we had their employees to come and take part in this. see this as being a stepping stone for a lot of these contractors, ⁓ and or new to this industry, ⁓ take a leap of faith into, wow, we're going to leave here with a confidence from what we've learned. And it's not just, ⁓ you know, learning the hands-on part. We actually have classes where we're going through, we're going through the standards. We're going to explain moisture. We're going to explain our not product line. It's not just about our product. Well, of course, we talk about our product, but it's about helping build those for the future. We want these future applicators to, we want to pay it forward. We want to push all that forward. So I came in here and that was one of the things that was on ⁓ list to kind of, because that's what keeps me passionate every day, ⁓ that we want to build this industry and create an industry where
Matthew Magro: Yeah.
Jay Whitaker: that everyone's successful. We want to partner with these guys. so AP has been a, APN is a manufacturer that has really, really, really taken ⁓ a hold far as looking at partnering. want to, we take it serious. We care about what these ⁓ applicators are doing. when I say a partner, it's not just a financial partnership. It's a ⁓ I think you can identify, you've known me for almost a decade now, we're there. We are, from a technical perspective, we want to be above and beyond just ⁓ our ⁓ We to be there that ⁓ if phone's gonna ring at night, ⁓ most guys are working at night, especially in the industrial world, commercial world. We work at night, we work on weekends, we work on holidays. So we have a presence. where we're going to be there for you. We're going to answer that phone. We're going to fly out there. We're going to be on site with you to help you and be there ⁓ you need anything because sometimes at night it's hard to find that guy ⁓ give you that information that's going to help you get off that job. Well, ⁓ where we come in. We're going to be there. We're going to answer that phone. We're going to be on site if you need it and we're going to help you ⁓ successful. So I mean to go long-winded on that one, but There's a lot to unpack there for myself as this is ⁓ new that I have stepped into ⁓ June. So I'm really excited. We've got some of the best-sell staff. We are here at APN. We are here to make a difference. You know, just financially, ⁓ but to build and make a difference for those who want it. Yeah.
Matthew Magro: No. Well, that's good. mean, I just had someone I just had a conversation with someone about this ⁓ this week actually and things like that ⁓ like a concerted effort behind building up industry with a focus on education. ⁓ So much of that gets overlooked and it's just product product product. But at the end of the day, if everyone in this entire scope of work knows more and is more proficient, that stuff compounds that stuff makes
Jay Whitaker: Mm-hmm, absolutely. Mm-hmm. Yes. ⁓
Matthew Magro: a difference and it kind of translates and pushes through the entire footprint. Every install, every architect, every general contractor, it's about actually having the knowledge. So, ⁓ well that's great. ⁓ I'm excited, unbiasedly, to kind of do more things with you guys. So, ⁓ alright, let's a quick lightning round, ⁓ one or sentence answers. ⁓
Jay Whitaker: the trends. That's right. Okay. ⁓ hope we'd love that. Okay? Okay.
Matthew Magro: For just a good way to kind of cap things off. Kin epoxy crack.
Jay Whitaker: Gotcha. Yes, it can crack from a lot of different things from temperature and also from just cracks underneath it transfers through the it's a very rigid product. It's a very rigid product. Yes.
Matthew Magro: Okay. Adversely, can epoxy stop cracks?
Jay Whitaker: Yes, on how it's used within like epoxy injection and or flexible epoxies. They both do great job in mitigating crack repair.
Matthew Magro: How about tile? Can epoxy go over tile?
Jay Whitaker: We're not really recommending epoxy to go over tile, but I do know that it can go over tile, yes.
Matthew Magro: And how about millage? Is thickness always better?
Jay Whitaker: Thickness is not always better. It depends on ⁓ the environment that it's going to be used at. But thickness does transmit into abrasion resistance ⁓ abuse as far as how ⁓ damage and how much abuse that flooring surface can take. Yes.
Matthew Magro: Yeah. And can all resinous flooring systems be installed over a green concrete?
Jay Whitaker: No, most green concretes 30 days ⁓ when we say green that's because there's moisture in there that has to come out. ⁓ we recommend you have breathable products ⁓ or you want to use something that is moisture tolerant. ⁓ there are specific products like urethane cement and MVBs ⁓ are epoxy can go over ⁓ green concrete.
Matthew Magro: Yeah, that's good. in closing, ⁓ the end of the day, resonance flooring isn't ⁓ about a specific manufacturer ⁓ product or a way to install. Insert phrase here, right? It's a system. ⁓ And we about, any good specification are just... You know templates, they should be intentional. There's reasons behind all those things. So I hope this was beneficial. Some things we dug deeper into than others and some of this might be like I mentioned before commonplace and elementary to some people but from doing I don't know, collectively, probably hundreds of luncheon learns now. It's not as common as we think. And so any information in education, like we just mentioned, is needed. So Jay, man, like you mentioned, have known you for quite some time. I'd give you the shirt off my back. I really appreciate you coming on and bringing the side of the industry to the conversation. It means a lot. I it.
Jay Whitaker: absolutely Matthew and we appreciate all that you've done in the industry. just I remember you ⁓ a ago and just the strive, you know, striving that you've done to be ⁓ an important just play an important role ⁓ in this is amazing. So, you know, you kind of asked ⁓ earlier and share with you my passion is seeing guys like you take the industry by storm ⁓ and then make difference, you know, make a difference in the industry. and it's hard to find guys like that and you're just one of those guys. So thank you for letting me just be part of this. I really appreciate it.
Matthew Magro: Well, I appreciate you Fran for anyone else that's listening. If you've got something out of this episode, share it with someone in the trades who appreciates the detail behind the work. And until next time, this is covering the industry. Have a great day.
