The Path To Purpose with Doug White

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Not just before you retire.
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When you're in the academy, realize that this is a job.
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This will end on your time or somebody else's time.
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I mean, God forbid a car crash, an injury, something can take you out of this.
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You need to be preparing for retirement the day you start and understand that this is a job.
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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
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Welcome back to the show.
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What an honor you've decided to spend a few minutes with us here today.
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And today's guest, uh, I'm really excited to talk about.
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You're going to love what he has to say and what he has been doing.
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His name is Doug White.
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He spent 30 combined years at the intersection of service and sacrifice.
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First is a security forces specialist in the U.S.
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Air Force, advancing the U.S.
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Special Operations Command.
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After 9-11, he volunteered for active duty, helping build SOCOM's protective service attachment in support of Operation Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom.
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He earned his honorable discharge in September of 2007.
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In 1998, Doug launched his 25-year law enforcement career in West Central Florida, working patrol, shaping the next generation of field training officers and instructors and commanding high-risk scenes as a certified bomb technician.
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He rose to the rank of lieutenant before retiring in 2023.
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Doug's the founder of Tell This Story LLC, author of the excellent book Hiding in Plain Sight, keynote speaker, and a number of other things.
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I'm looking forward to getting into it.
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Doug Watt, how are you doing, sir?
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I'm doing fantastic, Travis.
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It's um man, thank you.
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Thank you.
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It's an honor to be here and to spend some time with your listeners.
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This is this has uh been a long time coming and a great honor.
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Thank you.
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Well, Doug, I I may my my dates may be wrong.
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I think we met in person about a year ago.
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Yeah, right.
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Coming up on it was last September at Wounded Blue.
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Yeah, Wound of Blue conference.
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And man, uh you I and I if I remember right, you had you had spoke once or twice before that, and you had a big keynote speech at the Wound of Blue.
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And so I I've been obviously I've been speaking for many, many years, and I'm all I always love to take a look at, I wouldn't call you a news speaker, but I said, hey man, this this is you know, Doug White's getting thrown out here in the lines, then this is a big major conference, and he's got a keynote here.
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Let's just see how he does.
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And man, you blew me away.
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Like the best way I could describe it to the audience that has not seen you speak is it's just natural.
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Some people have a natural, very few people have a natural ability to just speak and relate to the audience.
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You have been blessed with that by God because there's no other way to get it.
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I mean, everybody can teach themselves to speak better and to communicate better, but very few people can do that naturally.
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And that was my impression of that.
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And uh, I told you that that day.
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And and I I guess have you been told that before in your career?
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Did you see where that helped you?
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I just kind of want to hear your thoughts on that.
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You know, it's it's funny, but to go back to what you said, I had spoken one time before, just about three weeks prior to that, and it was a completely different message.
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It was for uh Project Lifesaver, and I was speaking mostly to clinicians and caretakers.
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So I I every time I speak, I tailor my message and and you know, to whatever it is that the audience needs and what they're looking for.
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So um, yeah, first time on stage that size and and speaking on that particular subject, um, and to follow John Kelly and Tom Rizzo and uh you know John Mattingley the next morning.
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I was I was definitely uh swimming with the big fishes, and of course, I've I've been a huge fan of yours for quite some time and meeting you in person.
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I was just uh starstruck and and honestly scared out of my freaking mind.
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Um as far as the public speaking, I've um, you know, my dad was a great storyteller.
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Uh everybody in his family is a great storyteller.
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And uh if they weren't a cop, they were a teacher.
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So um I guess the the gift and the desire or the passion to uh to impart something to people is kind of in my DNA.
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And um, I mean, I I I was a contract instructor for Homeland Security for years.
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Uh, after 9-11, uh I was an advanced training instructor.
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I mean, I just I I've been in front of classrooms a lot and have developed my own curriculum.
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And it just um it's a passion of mine.
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So I guess that comes through.
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So I'm I'm very gracious that uh that people think that I'm a good speaker.
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So thank you for that.
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Well, and I I can't wait to see.
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I mean, is wherever you are, I'm gonna try to be.
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It's it was really a pleasure.
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And I know uh it's been an interesting year for you.
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I want to get into that, but before we do that, I I think just tell the audience, Doug, kind of how you got here.
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I briefly your career, what you did, you know, and kind of where why you do what you do today, because I love it when people spend a few decades in law enforcement, but then when they get done, they say, Hey, I'm not done.
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I'm gonna continue this.
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And I feel the people that are effective and do it well are no question.
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Uh, and you know, you're you're led by a higher power, so to speak, and you're you're led to do that because you have no reason to do what you do.
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It is difficult to do what both of us do and speak and write and and to stay engaged when it's really a young man's game.
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Uh, so I guess just I'll open this up to you and just tell us a little about your career, about yourself, and kind of how you ended up doing what you do today.
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Man, that's uh that's uh right now a 33-year journey coming up.
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So I'll try to cram it and condense it as much as I can.
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Um born in Central Florida, raised here, uh, spent some active duty time on the uh the uh the far west coast out in uh well, it was now joint base, Lewis McCord.
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It was McCord Air Force Base at the time.
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And um I enjoyed my my military service.
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And uh in 1997, I got done with my first active duty tour and went to the action reserves, and uh was lucky enough to get a spot here at uh headquarters U.S.
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Special Operations Command down in Tampa.
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And um that was great, but uh that was never the end goal.
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The end goal was to get hired with the Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office here.
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And uh, you know, the the home team, and that's that's the only place I applied for, and that's where I was going to work.
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And um, I got picked up as as a reserve officer, a reserve deputy.
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And um a week after I completed uh the reserve academy, they called me and said, Hey, do you want to get paid?
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And I said, Easy answer.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So I I looked at my FTO and I said, Hey, I just got hired.
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He goes, Yeah, not until you write that missing person's report.
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So I I hand wrote, yeah, back in the day, before the turn of the century, I hand wrote uh the report on the way down to the operations center to to sign up to get paid.
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Um I I loved my career.
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Uh it was wonderful.
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I um I became an FTO at 18 months, which was uh unheard of, but my prior military experience was security forces, which is law enforcement and the Air Force.
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And um, so I I already had the gift and the knowledge, and uh, of course I took myself way too seriously, which is uh almost the theme of the first book that I wrote that which came much later.
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But um yeah, uh 9-11 came along, and uh before the first tower came down, my phone rang and it was the command saying we'll see you in the morning.
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And I said, Check, see you in the morning.
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So I showed up at the main gate of McDill at on 9 12 at just before 5 a.m.
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And um I would spend the next 37 months and 18 days there at the command.
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Well, I I want to I want to stop you there because that's such a seminal moment.
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I want you know, there'll be people there'll be people listening to this that are 33, 34 years old that don't understand this, but um if you were in law enforcement, I mean really anybody's but I I mean here's where I was.
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I was uh I was 30 years old.
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My first child was about a year old.
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I was working graveyard as a sergeant, I'd come home, I was sleeping, and I don't know, 10 30, 11 o'clock, my wife came in there and said, uh, hey, a plane flew in to the World Trade Center.
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Now, my mindset at the time was what idiot flew a Cessna plane into the World Trade Center, they're gonna lose.
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I mean, because no one could even ponder that, right?
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And so I got up about 12, 12:30, and I walk in there and I look at the television and I said, What in the world?
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I mean, did you of course like I came in and told you?
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And I I remember going to work that night with this sense of just pissed off beyond recognition.
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So pissed off, I looked into joining the military.
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We we had a handful of people that literally drove down the next day and because you could sign up for the reserves or national, whatever, and you you're gonna maintain your position in the police department, that's federal law.
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You go off and serve and come back.
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I mean, I was so I wanted, I needed an outlet so bad.
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You know, ultimately I made the decision with a one-year-old at home and and things like that to not do that.
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But you actually had a place to go the next day.
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So I would imagine you were just as pissed off, if not more.
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I mean, I I don't think people today, I mean, they a lot, so many people just don't understand that.
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I mean, because you it's a different world today.
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We're I mean, we we look at everybody today like they're just innocent little angels and nobody would ever do harm to anybody.
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But that was such a wild time because it it radically shifted law enforcement and mindset and what what can be expected.
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I'll just I'll kind of leave it for you and let you continue, Doug.
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No, and I absolutely it did.
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And and to that point, um, you know, I was gainfully employed in two different places.
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So even though I was working full time at the sheriff's office, uh, the command was gracious enough to say, hey, we'll work around your schedule if you want to come here and stay here.
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So I um even though I was working at the sheriff's office on my days off, I was at the command.
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So I was on 180-day orders leading into 9-11 anyway.
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I just actually the week prior completed uh uh a six-month set of orders and uh had re-enlisted, which is crazy.
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I I re-enlisted on September 4th.
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And had I not re-enlisted, my enlistment would have been done.
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My total commitment to the Air Force would have been done at midnight on September 10th.
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Wow.
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So I yeah, so by by nine hours.
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Um uh so yeah, um, I got to the base and I I volunteered for six-month orders and said, hey, when we get to five months, we'll we'll reevaluate because we we know there's gonna be an issue.
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We just don't know how long the issue is gonna be.
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And um, within three months, they said, we've got you for a one-year contract.
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It was a mandatory recall.
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And um I volunteered uh again and again and again in my total commitment.
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It was just over 37 months.
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And um it it was um it was a mixed bag.
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I met some of the uh not some of the I met the most professional warriors, men and women, uh at that command during my my decade in service at the command.
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And um I would have to say those three years post-9-11 were the most uh memorable of my active duty years and uh the most formative for me as as a leader, uh as an airman, as a trainer, as a dad.
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Um just uh it it was incredible, just incredible.
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And there's more about that in my book, and I don't want to riff on those guys because I would just uh man, I'd be talking for hours and telling stories.
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But um in November, uh very early November of 04, I returned to the sheriff's office.
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And um, I'm not a the kind of guy that can uh sit back and relax, so I jumped right back into it.
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Um rode with an FTO for about a week, became an FTO again um almost immediately.
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And um we were eight months pregnant when I returned.
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We my wife, Michelle, was pregnant with our first.
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So in December of that year, hopefully you were only gone seven months.
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I don't know the math there.
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Uh 37 months, but I was it was still a McDeal.
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So when I wasn't living out of a suitcase and traveling with the boss, I was home.
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So we had that, Doug.
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Come back to the eight month or eight months.
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No, I was gotta clarify that one.
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Clarifying, I was gone from the sheriff's office for 37 months.
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Um uh gone from home quite a bit, but home quite a bit.
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But if not, we got to figure out where John Kelly was during that time period.
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Uh John Kelly was still in South Florida.
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He didn't he did not know me at that point.
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Uh and by the way, John says hi.
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I spoke to him this morning.
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Uh, anyway, so getting back to that, I I returned.
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Um, I took a little bit of time off when my daughter was born and um wanted to try out for the bomb squad.
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You know, I'd been interested in in uh bombs and bad guys since I was a kid.
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I mean, I grew up in a patriotic household.
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I was very aware of what was going on in in the Middle East in the early 80s and in Libya in 86, and I'd always followed that stuff.
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I had great interest in it.
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And my my military time surrounded uh operational and theoretical counter-terror.
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So got to try out for the bomb team.
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You know, 85% of all terrorist attacks happen with bombs.
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And if I'm not a tech, I'm missing 85% of the game, right?
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So tried out for the bomb team, and I made it the first time and I spent uh almost six months.
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By the way, just so our at least our audience doesn't know, not easy, not easy to try out for a bomb team and make it.
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No, and especially in July in Central Florida.
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Yeah, you're you're walking around with 125-pound suit with a no air conditioning.
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And there's a lot of math and a lot of weird things you got to think about.
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Like I was involved, I wasn't on the bomb team, but I I was a commander of a bomb team and and and dealt with a lot of those tryouts, and and uh some of the smartest, most uh, you know, actually some of the smartest, uh, some of the weirdest, some of the craziest.
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Uh, you know, they're no question, a different, different breed of people, but I was just so impressed, man.
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So just so impressed.
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So it's not easy for what your accomplishment is not easy.
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I just want to make sure our audience knows that.
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No, there's you know, it's not, and it, but it's a great deal of fun to get paid to blow shit up.
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Um, so yeah, I I did that.
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I started promoting through the ranks, uh, went to the training division for a while, ran a couple of academy classes.
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And um when I was in patrol, I was either an FTO or an FTO supervisor all the way through the the rank of lieutenant.
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Um now, long story, and I'm sure we're gonna get to that, but um I was aware that I was having some of the, I guess, some of the issues that, well, that we didn't talk about back then, uh, sleeplessness, nightmares, uh what I thought was depression, uh, you know, low-grade inflammation, pain, hypervigilance, all of the things that now we're all talking about.
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We didn't talk about them, but I was aware that I was having those issues as early as about probably 2004.
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And uh I used overcommitment and um more tasks and more certifications, more jobs, more overtime to compensate, basically trying to outrun all of those things that I knew I was I was experiencing.
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And uh it worked until it didn't.
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Uh in 2019, I I had a um an epiphany moment that changed everything.
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And um as a result of some of the things that were going on in my life at that time, there was an IA case.
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Um it's fully documented in the book.
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I talk about it on stage and everything else.
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And uh after a four and a half month um IA case, I was demoted from lieutenant to deputy.
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I was a historic demotion.
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And um, you know, there are mixed f mixed feelings from um um from advocates and and even uh opponents that believe that I was treated harshly.
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But that notwithstanding, uh it led me to where I am today.
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So I spent the last uh just about three years of my career as a deputy working patrol um in Hillsborough County.
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And I retired in July of 23.
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And um it's funny because people were asking me about over the last six months when I when I said I was gonna retire.
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They said, Well, what are you gonna do?
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What's next?
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And um it it turned into a joke and the million-dollar question.
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And um, you know, people would say, Well, guys like you don't know how to quit.
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You do you don't know how to stop.
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There's gotta be something.
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So I thought about, you know, doing bomb work, doing uh being a contractor, going to work for one of the large um soft contractors here uh in the Tampa area.
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Um I got my master's degree because I was gonna teach undergrad.
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And uh, you know, all of the things that people thought I would do and that I fell into the trap of, yeah, that sounds like Doug, let's do that.
00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:05.519
And finally, it uh when I was leaving the district on my last day after my little cake party at the at the district, somebody said, So what are you gonna do?
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:10.799
And as a joke, as a joke, Travis, I said, I'm gonna write a book.
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:15.119
And faces kind of went like deadpan, like uh about what?
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:16.880
I said, about all of this.
00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:18.720
And I just smiled and walked away.
00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:21.039
And it it was a complete joke.
00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:25.440
You know, people had told me for years you should write a book, but uh I I was dismissive.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:26.799
I'm too lazy to write a book.
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:27.839
That's that's stupid.
00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:35.759
But um when I retired though, I found that I got more dark than I did uh during my troubles.
00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:43.039
And uh so I sat down and started journaling, which is something again I'd been dismissive of for more than a decade.
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:48.559
And uh I found that the feelings and the stuff that was coming out of me were just I couldn't stop it.
00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:54.720
And um I read that journal and saw that I'd been speaking to myself as a as a victim.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:03.599
You know, I I wrote my hero's tale as from a bystander standpoint, and um I had to sit with that for a while and like, why am I speaking to myself this way?
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.160
I'm nobody who's ever met me would ever say you're a bystander or a victim of anything.
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:15.279
And um, so I sat with that, and what came out of that and those lessons learned became hiding in plain sight.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:20.079
And um the goal there was just to write and publish a book, and I did that.
00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:24.720
But became a bestseller, and I won't be an international award.
00:18:25.039 --> 00:18:30.640
Yeah, I I I hate to interrupt you, but I mean it's more than just a book.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:31.839
I'm so dumb.
00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.119
Uh I I saw Doug White wrote a book, hiding a plain sight.
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:36.319
I go, that'd be an interesting book.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:40.880
I can learn how to, you know, keep myself secure from hackers and hiding, you know.
00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:49.440
I I didn't even look past the title, but then when I got it, you gave it to me, I read it on the plane home and it knocked me out.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:50.720
I mean, I'm sure you've heard this.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.799
I mean, everybody listening to this right now, you have to go get this book.
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:59.680
It is it's the most impactful, vulnerable, powerful.
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:00.880
I can't even think of any more.
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.119
I mean, it's an incredible book, even easier.
00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:05.680
I think I've read most of it on the way home on the plane.
00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.960
Uh, but it's it's pretty incredible.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:15.759
Uh, much of it I read, I I saw myself in it, and I think most cops that read it are gonna see parts of this are themselves.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:24.000
And so I know you've got another one coming out, but that I I tell you what, that is uh it's it's something else, and it all the awards it's won is well deserved.
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.519
I want to go take you back, John.
00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:28.880
So I mean, Doug, I want to take you back.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:33.359
You started having these struggles on the PD and you knew it.
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:37.920
Did any and and you your outlets, did anybody notice this?
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:44.640
Did anybody pull you aside and go, hey, I know you're working 190 hours a week, I know you're doing this, I know you're doing that, I know you.
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:49.759
Did any leader, supervisor, man, anybody go, Doug?
00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.359
Anybody?
00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:52.160
No.
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.640
And that's my problem with leadership and law enforcement.
00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:55.759
Oh, no, that's my problem.
00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:13.039
I gave you a training video, but right in front of them, it's happening, and their answer to it 99% of the time is an IA complaint.
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:14.720
That was the answer to you.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:16.240
That's the answer to so many other people.
00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:19.680
I hear those stories all the time for struggling people.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:25.920
So don't give me your bullshit that you care, that you understand wellness, that you understand what's going on.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:37.839
They're sitting in their ivory towers and they're making these judgments, and they know, they know that Doug White for two decades has been an outstanding employee.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:43.279
And instead of a hand down, we're gonna slap instead of lift up.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:46.240
And I have talked to leaders that are the opposite of this.
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:52.000
Uh, you know, uh, retired Sheriff Mark Lamb, uh um now Chief Matt Thomas.
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.920
I mean, we've we both had conversations on this show about what they did.
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:04.079
I've talked to their employees that, by all practical purposes, had a fireball offense, but these guys saw the good in that and rehabilitated him.
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.559
Somewhere in law enforcement, we've lost this, Doug.
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:14.079
And I think we've lost it in the last decade because I can remember two, three decades ago when you would see an officer struggling.
00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:20.960
And yeah, there may be an investigation, but duly there was we're gonna we're gonna save this employee because they're worth saving.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:25.519
Is that your take that this has been sort of lost in recent years?
00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:26.240
Yes.
00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:29.920
And and that was the focus of of the second book that I did.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.440
Um, you know, I I've got to say this, Travis.
00:21:33.440 --> 00:21:46.079
I I believe everything you just said, yes, but uh, you know, of the 18,000, nearly 18,000 law enforcement agencies in this country, there are a lot of good leaders that are that are doing good work.
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:58.240
They may not all be at the at the highest levels of the executive levels that can really affect uh cultural change, but there's good sergeants out there, there's good corporals, good lieutenants that are really doing a lot for their people.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:01.279
And I I think that needs to be Highlighted more.
00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:14.880
Um, you know, I was just uh commented on a post on LinkedIn today that um, you know, it's it's leaderships, it it is their sole purpose to ensure that their people are whole.
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:26.880
And that starts with one doing the work themselves, identifying their own gaps and and making sure that they're squared away, and letting their people see that, hey, you know, I I I had a problem with this, and we can talk about this.
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:33.279
This is survivable, but then for them to sit down and say, hey, that was a shit call that we were on yesterday.
00:22:33.279 --> 00:22:34.720
Okay, let's talk about this.
00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:36.160
Let's let's go get some coffee.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.240
Hey, you you were late today.
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:39.759
You've never been late for anything.
00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:40.720
You good to go?
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.359
Let's let's go have some coffee, let's talk about this.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.400
And instead of, hey, I'm gonna write you up for being late.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:47.279
No, bro.
00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:52.720
Why is this why is this troop who's never done anything wrong, who's on the top of their game always?
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:54.079
Why are they slipping?
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:58.400
Find out, and then when you ask them, do something with that answer.
00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.200
Uh yeah.
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:05.200
You owe it to the profession, to yourself, to your people, to that family, to the citizens.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:06.960
I mean, you you owe it to everybody.
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:07.839
And you're you're right.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:10.000
Yeah, you're right, Doug.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:12.480
There are many, many good leaders out there.
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:13.359
The problem is those stories.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:14.960
There's some turds too.
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:16.880
Yeah, the problem is those stories aren't so prevalent.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.400
And we've got a podcast coming up.
00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.920
I'm kind of waiting for his book to drop, but it's Broken Arrow Chief Lance Arnold.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:26.160
And I had a lunch discussion with him, a very fascinating, uh, exceptional leader.
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.039
And he told me something that I very rarely have heard from leaders.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:31.839
He goes, My job is, you're right, their job is to make them hope.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:38.480
But he goes, My job is is when the day they retire this department, that they are thriving at a higher level than the day they started.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:39.039
Absolutely.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:42.480
That they love this profession more than the day they started.
00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.799
And that's almost the opposite of what we see, right?
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:48.720
I mean, people are just scratching to get to the end because they're so miserable oftentimes.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:54.480
Yeah, military people, prisoners, and first responders have a countdown to when they get out.
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:55.279
Yep.
00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:56.240
I mean, yeah.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.640
So uh yeah, how much time do you got left?
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.559
I I was I met with a firefighter yesterday.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160
A buddy of mine have known the guy 20 years.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:03.519
I'm like, bro, you're a year in the drop.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.400
What are you gonna be done?
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:08.640
Well, you know, I'm doing the math, and I'm like, come on, man.
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:09.599
Come on.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.279
Yeah, you talk you can do this.
00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.759
You talked about the dark place when you retired.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:18.400
And well, I've got a lot of thoughts on this because I I was just having a conversation.
00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:19.279
Well, with it was Dr.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:23.839
Mark Sherwood, who was just on this show um a few weeks ago.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:30.400
And we were having a conversation before the show, and and because I'm three years in retirement, just hit three years.
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:38.319
And I would say the first couple of years was like, this is like I I never expected, I wouldn't say it was dark, I would just say it was very confusing.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:40.799
And and you know, I look at Dr.
00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:43.680
Sherwood and this there's nobody that's got it more together than him.
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.319
And he basically told me, he goes, Yeah, same thing happened to me.
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.400
I said, What was the what was the hardest thing, Mark?
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.880
And he said, the realization that nobody really cared for me.
00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:54.319
Nobody really cared.
00:24:54.319 --> 00:25:00.960
Like if they were my friends when I was on the department, it was because I could offer them something or I had a rank that could assist him.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:11.839
He said, But the minute I left, I seemed like he said, I had a couple of friends, but what I thought I had, he said that he said that realization that it wasn't, it's not really what they say, right?
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.119
Because we we we we we lie a lot to these officers.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:17.759
This is a family, and you care for you.
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.279
Yeah, you're just laughing like I'm laughing.
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:20.880
It's the greatest ever told.
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:22.079
Yeah, it's really wow.
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:27.200
I mean, at the end of the day, hey, it's a job, it's a job, it is your number, it is, and that's it.
00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:31.599
I mean, but we can't tell people that and let them and expect them to put up with that toxic environment.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.519
So we got to lie to them and tell them it's a family.
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:38.799
And so I just wish I'd known about it earlier because it really hit me, it was really difficult.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:48.160
And then I think there's other things involved almost physically and mentally, which is that dopamine and that that risk aversion and that thing that you loved and that I loved.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:49.279
I mean, you were a bomb tech.
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:53.119
So I mean, so you've got to replace that with something, right?
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.240
And I was tracking with canine as a lieutenant.
00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.119
I I was in fist fights as a lieutenant.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.920
Starting fin, I was subduing bad guys as a lieutenant.
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.319
Foot chases, car chases, I was active.
00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:06.799
Yeah.
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:15.279
So what I would say to anybody that maybe hasn't retired yet, you need to replace what you're you need to find that replacement before you retire.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:16.640
Like, whatever that is.
00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.079
Like if you're an adrenaline junkie, go find a hobby, right?
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.200
This is that's adrenaline.
00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.440
Let's let's take that all the way back.
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.119
Not not just before you retire.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:31.759
When you're in the academy, realize that this is a job, this will end on on your time or somebody else's time.
00:26:31.759 --> 00:26:35.599
I mean, God forbid a car crash, an injury, something can take you out of this.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:40.480
You need to be preparing for retirement the day you start and understand that this is a job.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:44.720
Now, I will be the first one to tell you I overinvested, I over-identified.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:46.720
I mean, I was the job.
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:56.079
You know, if if if you don't want to be um, you know, taken out by a bad guy uh, you know, during a physical confrontation, you better learn how to fight on the ground.
00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:03.279
If you don't want, if if you want to win a gunfight, you better be at the range every day or every week or every two weeks.
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:05.200
And I I was the guy.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.440
I mean, I I lived and breathed.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:15.359
I was the dude that never said no, always answered the phone, and I loved every bit of it until the day I found out that didn't love me back.
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:15.839
Yeah.
00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:18.799
And uh, you know, because I I I bought into the great lie.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:19.920
We're a family.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:29.680
Now I I will say this whether I believe I was treated fairly or not at the end of end result of my case, um, I prayed for grace and I got it.
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:34.240
I was able to keep my job, to keep my pension, and to move forward to retirement.
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:38.480
Whether that's the grace that I wanted or not, it's grace nonetheless.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:39.599
So I am grateful for that.
00:27:39.599 --> 00:27:48.559
And I am grateful because all of the things that I experienced had to be experienced for me to be having this conversation with Travis Yates today.
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:50.880
And um, I'm a firm believer.
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.799
And in uh Travis, to go back to the the got dark after I retired.
00:27:54.799 --> 00:27:58.240
You know, I was this thing for 30 years in two uniforms.
00:27:58.240 --> 00:27:59.920
I was a shaved head enforcer.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.039
I scared the scary.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:04.079
I mean, it's it's what I did, it's who I was.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:05.839
Well, you were almost built for it, Doug.
00:28:05.839 --> 00:28:07.920
And people I know, people don't know you.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:10.240
I mean, you're about six foot four, six foot five.
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.319
I mean, you are almost I'm I'm only six one, but I I present that way.
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:16.079
You do you identify as six four.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:22.480
I I saw a picture of John Kelly and I standing together today, something he posted, and I was like, man, I thought John was so much bigger than me.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:22.960
He's really not.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:24.079
Oh, John's a little guy.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:24.720
He's a little guy.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:26.319
He's spunky though, but he's a little guy.
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:27.839
He is, he's he's fiery.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:35.119
But um, you know, when I retired, I woke up the next day and I was like, man, I was these things, and what am I supposed to be now?
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:43.759
And uh to try to to search into that, um, you know, it it should have been a realization to me the day that I left.
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:53.119
Uh, I went to all the places, I turned in all my kits, signed over everything, and um, you know, I was no longer, you know, uh the line item budget number.
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:58.160
You know, that last day when you have to drive yourself around and do the walk of shame to turn in all your stuff.
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:07.599
Um, that's the last data point that most first responders get to tell them concretely how the organization felt about them.
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:13.759
You know, when you pay for your own cake, the fact that they turn your key access card off the next day tells you all you need to know.
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:22.160
Buddy, the next day, the lady walked me to her office door at Benefits, pointed down the hallway, and said, You can wait in the lobby for your ride.
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.160
She didn't even walk me to the lobby.
00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:28.160
I'm like, brother, I was a boss here 25 years.
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:30.240
I have killed for this place.
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:35.680
I've left my I was the guy who left my niece's christening for a bomb call out.
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:37.200
That's the guy I was.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:38.559
I'm not proud of that.
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:41.279
It was rock and roll and dedicated back then.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.960
Holy stupid and unhealthy in the rear view.
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:53.359
But, you know, it what after I retired, I started looking back and what I thought was my purpose in life, military service and law enforcement service to my community.
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:54.960
I thought that was my purpose.
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.640
And I was a little dismayed to realize it was never my purpose.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.319
It was my path to purpose.
00:30:00.319 --> 00:30:10.160
My purpose is what I'm doing right now because I've never been more fulfilled professionally doing anything than what I'm doing now.
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:12.400
And it's it's been it's been a blessing, man.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.279
It really has.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:22.000
Yeah, and I would I would submit to you, and I think you understand this, is all that happened, as Roman says, you know, there's a reason for everything to get to you where you are today.
00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:40.400
And and so you come out of the chute, you write the book, you start doing a little bit of speaking, and then in January, you basically take a hiatus, you disappear off social media, um, and you come back, and you've come back with a vengeance.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.960
But explain the thoughts on on that.
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:50.799
And I I think I probably already know because it's it's disgusting sometimes being doing some of the things that we do, right?
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:58.160
I mean, everybody's a guru, everybody's an expert, you know, everybody's the you know, they're using AI to all be the the end all be all.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:05.279
And Lance Arnold told me one day, he goes, you know what, I I knew you long before everybody had an internet resume and everybody had their own channel, right?
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:20.799
I mean, so it's it's when you're in the when you're in the speaking space, it is there's a bunch of frauds, there's a bunch of wild stuff, there's a bunch of things out there that it's just very disgusting, and and I've wanted to pop out, you know, myself.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:24.720
So I'm very curious to hear your thoughts and kind of what you did in that hiatus.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:33.759
Well, I know you to be a man to speak your mind, whether it's going to be popular or not, and whether it's gonna get hits or likes or any of that stuff.
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.240
Um, so I'm I'm gonna take this opportunity to say some stuff that I've not said yet.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:43.440
And it's uh I'm probably gonna feel some backlash, but whatever, bro.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:56.319
Um, so yeah, I I started speaking about first responder fitness, wellness, mental fitness and wellness, because it was based on my story and some of the things that I found that that helped me.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:31:59.119
And I felt that I needed to be in that space.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:07.440
And uh I was using my story as as my credibility and the pedigree to be able to do this, and it was it was going well.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.319
And it was I was making a difference.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:16.000
I was getting messages from people, hey man, this saved my life, or hey, I read your book, I've been sober two months now.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:19.039
You save just all of the wonderful things.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.440
And I was like, man, this is this is fulfilling.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:28.240
But to keep that going, to get the message out to other people, I had to stay on social media and stay engaged with that.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.079
I don't know how to do social media, man.
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:40.000
So I'm learning by watching other people, and you get snapshots of people saying stuff, and I'm like, hey, I I can understand that and I'm I'm all for it.
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.799
Let me see what else this person is saying.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:54.480
And then I just find out that the law enforcement wellness space, I guess, and and this is a blanket term, and it's not everybody, there are some very good people doing some very, very solid work there.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:07.839
And um unfortunately they have to climb uh above all of the noise of the people who who are at different stages of their healing and their journey, but they're selling themselves as gurus.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:11.920
And I think they're doing my personal opinion, is they're doing more damage than good.
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:23.680
And they are charging exorbitant fees to go um tens of thousands of dollars to speak for an hour or two based on I was a cop for X number of years.
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:26.319
Okay, now this this sounds shitty.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.279
It really does.
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:37.680
And it's I don't mean this to sound as a generalization, but if you're a first responder and you did a year, you did a year more than anybody else.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.240
Okay, you were a first responder, you signed up, you did the thing, respect.
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:54.480
But you can't say that you did six years for some place and retired because of whatever reason, and now you're gonna come to me and talk to me about resilience.
00:33:54.480 --> 00:34:01.119
I've got 25 years of the 12th largest law enforcement agency in the country.
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:12.000
My last year we were on pace to break a million CAD calls for service because the year prior we had broken a million CAD calls for service.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.519
We were busy, buddy.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.320
You can't talk to me about that.
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:23.519
No, I've I I believe that I can learn something from everybody, but I'm not gonna pay you tens of thousands of dollars.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:31.679
You're not gonna be my coach, I'm not gonna be in your mastermind group, I'm not gonna do that because I don't feel like you're not talking to me.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:39.440
So I I saw a lot of that people wanting me to endorse them, and I'm like, man, this is freaking middle school with better lighting.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:42.320
This is dysfunction with good PR.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:44.559
And I just found it disgusting.
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:51.840
I'm like, man, the people, the things that they're saying, you know, trauma is not a uh not a competition, but here's my trauma.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:56.079
Like, well, wait a second, I I don't agree with with this.
00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:58.880
And you're charging people money for this.
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:01.920
And like that it doesn't feel right.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.199
So I just um I pulled the plug in December.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.559
I did uh I think you were my second to last podcast.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.719
Uh I haven't done a podcast episode in seven months.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:19.519
I just started posting on LinkedIn last week, and uh I just went silent, man.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:29.599
I I tried to figure out what is it that I'm supposed to be doing here because I feel like uh I found the answers to the test and that I'm I'm kind of a jerk if I don't share that with my friends.
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:35.679
Like there's a moral obligation that I've made it through, and I should share this with other people.
00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:46.639
And um, I looked at the book, I looked at what I was doing, and I, you know, where my passions uh were, and I noticed that the through line through every bit of this was leadership.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:55.599
And and to your point, leadership has a responsibility in the in the health and wellness of their people and obviously the culture of their organizations and the profession.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.000
And um I wanted to strip everything down.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:02.400
And Operator Syndrome by Dr.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:10.000
Chris Free was a uh a study that I found um quite by accident in uh January of 23.
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:27.199
And he wrote and published the paper in in 2020, but I found it in 2023, and it's about the uh the interconnecting uh injuries and illness that were being seen in special operators, uh, you know, low testosterone, TBI, circadian rhythm disruption.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.559
It just it was a whole mess of interconnected stuff.
00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:34.159
So I looked at that and I was like, man, this is showing up in my patrol car.
00:36:34.159 --> 00:36:36.400
This is me, but I wasn't an operator.
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:39.119
So uh it's in the first book.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:52.639
Um, and uh I wanted to put together something for all first responders so they would see themselves in this and not just say, oh, operator syndrome, I'm not a special operator, this doesn't mean me.
00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:54.079
No, it does mean you.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:56.159
Chris Free has said the same thing.
00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:02.079
And um, so I I researched operator syndrome even more.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:10.639
And uh I should note that I I actually took the paper to my my primary care physician and said, This is me, this is how you treat me.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.360
And he did, and it worked.
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:27.440
So anyway, uh to make this long story even shorter, I adapted Chris Free's uh operator syndrome for all first responders and called it high allostatic load responder adaptation.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.559
I put together a research paper, I sent it to Chris Free.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.119
He and I are uh uh corresponding uh pals.
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:37.679
And I said, Hey, what do you think about this?
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.400
And uh he said this is a terrific paper.
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:49.280
Um he also said that my book was the um was the perfect case study for the applicability of operator syndrome to first responders.
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.480
And um said, that's it.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:53.920
I I've got something here.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:06.639
Now here's the here's the framework and the mechanism as to what it is that's going on with us, but how do we get people to lead themselves to to make themselves better?
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.280
And then how do we hold leadership responsible?
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:15.199
So I I put all that together, and over the last seven months, I've put together the HAL RA framework.
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:20.159
I've published it in Caliber Press, the Havoc Journal, and uh Police One.
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:31.280
And um, it became the the foundation for the keynotes that I've had so far this year, uh, the latest being at the Southern Police Institute's Alumni Association, and it landed well.
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:36.400
Um, so well that I've been invited to be a guest lecturer at the University of Louisville.
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:41.280
So I'll I'll be up there in September delivering that to classes and at SPI.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:51.920
Um from that, uh, those two trademarks, uh the imprint framework and leader-driven durability, uh, along with HAL R.A.
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:55.199
are the foundation of my new book.
00:38:55.199 --> 00:38:56.639
Manuscript is done.
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:00.800
It is sitting with a publisher now, waiting to see if they're gonna pick it up.
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:05.280
And that book now, the working title is Leading in Plain Sight.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.079
And it's not thank you.
00:39:08.079 --> 00:39:12.239
It's it's not just a continuation of hiding in plain sight, it's a completion.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:19.760
And um, it is again, it's the foundation for everything that I'm gonna be speaking about in the um in the future.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.039
And um, wherever that leads is where it leads.
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:25.920
And um, I'm just I'm open to it.
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.559
Man, I'm I'm I'm retired, I'm 52.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:46.400
Um John and I, uh John Kelly and I, along with Matt Griffin, were speaking at the the Southern Police Institute's uh conference last month, and uh during uh an open water swim at sunrise uh on Atlantic Beach, we decided we're gonna do a triathlon next year.
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:56.000
So um all I'm doing for the next year is is diving into this, speaking to people about it, and training for a try with uh two broken old men.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:07.119
Well, what you said about that frustration and the mental uh mental health space, I actually know exactly if some of the names you're talking about.
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:08.159
It's disgusting.
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:09.280
It it is.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:13.039
I think it was more disgusting for me because it's not the room I was supposed to be in.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:14.400
Yeah, this is the room I'm supposed to be in.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:15.039
It's disgusting.
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:23.119
Now, I will tell you the leadership aspect, it's just as bad, but the difference is in what you're doing is you're actually bringing substance to the leadership space.
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:23.679
Yeah.
00:40:23.920 --> 00:40:27.119
Um I have been extremely frustrated in the leadership space.
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.199
First off, you're right, everything is leadership.
00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:31.199
And so it is, it is everything's leadership.
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:32.320
It all ties back to that.
00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.519
And so your transition from what you were doing to this is minimal.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:43.840
It's just, it's just, it's, it's just gonna be more impactful because you've because of the frameworks that you've built out, and that's and it's gonna actually matter.
00:40:43.840 --> 00:40:49.119
But I mean, I'll never forget uh there's particular leadership guru, so to speak.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:54.079
And this guy, I mean, he's knocking down, he's making over a million dollars a year in law enforcement.
00:40:54.079 --> 00:40:56.400
I mean, just you know, 200 dates a year.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:03.920
And so he was gonna he was speaking before me at a conference, and I go, I gotta fly down early, and this guy's gotta be crapping gold out of his buttocks, right?
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:05.760
I mean, I gotta see what this guy's doing.
00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:14.559
And literally, it was just fun some funny stories, and everybody laughed, and that was pretty much it, right?
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:16.000
Where are the tools?
00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:17.280
How are we supposed to be better for this?
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:21.440
Yeah, I'm never gonna make money doing this, but that doesn't matter.
00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:23.760
But this guy's never gonna change lives, right?
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.519
I mean, so yeah, it's just it's just really unfortunate.
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:42.559
But that's the passion that that God's laid on you, Doug, and and this direction is is it's you you've landed, and I think you're gonna that your immediate success with this is shows you that you're in the place you're supposed to be in.
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:44.000
It's gonna be very exciting, man.
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:45.039
I can't wait to hear it.
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:46.800
I can't wait to read the book.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.559
Um it's just so unique and so powerful.
00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:56.159
Um, and do you think that silence away made it clear for you?
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.079
Because I'm a big advocate of people.
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.800
Right now, I'll go dark on on usually Saturday, one day a week.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:06.880
Not enough, but this day in and day out grind online is difficult.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.400
It because I naturally, I'm not some 22-year-old influencer.
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:11.840
To me, it's not natural to do.
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:14.719
I don't like talking because I feel like it's talking about myself.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:16.320
I don't like doing any of that.
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:21.199
Um, you know, LinkedIn is the new, my kids on the on and roll bumper sticker on people's car.
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:22.480
Everybody's talking about themselves.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:24.079
It's all disgusting.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:30.719
Um, but do you think that this you taking the height as you did is why you landed where you did?
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:34.000
How important is it for everybody to think about?
00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:37.840
Maybe not taking seven months off, but taking time away.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.519
Well, I I I didn't have a time frame on the time that I was taking.
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:48.320
I was just, I knew I was done watching everybody drag around their their bag of trauma from keynote to keynote.
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:51.199
And um it it just felt gross to me.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:54.320
So I I just disconnected and and kind of set with myself.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:43:06.159
And the beauty part of it was when I wasn't scrolling social media to find out what I should be saying or what everybody else was saying, I didn't have anybody telling me what I should think about stuff.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:11.599
So that silence gave me the opportunity to say, hey, what does Doug really feel about this?
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:14.480
Don't worry about measuring against somebody's feelings.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:19.920
What does what does the groundwork of of me feel about this?
00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:22.239
And uh I found it very freeing.
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:42.960
And one, I found probably four or five day hours a day, literal hours a day, of me time and thinking time and reading and and just mindfulness, being intentional with my time and where I spent it, and um the creativity that came from all of that um was remarkable.
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:52.079
I mean, frameworks, uh a book, a an endorsed paper by the doctor that came up with the uh with the the mechanism to begin with.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:59.599
So um, you know, it obviously it's it's paid off, and I'm still fleshing it out and still just trying to get a grip on it.
00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.199
But um man, it's been powerful.
00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:06.960
I think the beauty of the framework, Doug, is it's going to be ever fluid, it's going to be ever evolving.
00:44:07.039 --> 00:44:07.679
That's the beauty of it.
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:08.639
It is, it is.
00:44:08.639 --> 00:44:12.960
And um, you know, I'm I'm very clear about it in the book, in the paper, and everything.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:15.840
That the the paper is has been published, it's online.
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:18.800
You can grab it from my website, and I'm very clear in there.
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.760
Hey, I'm I'm not a clinician, I'm not a researcher, I'm not an expert.
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:26.880
I'm I'm a dude who found this at the bottom of my own life and I used it to change my life.
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:38.400
And I am I am just adapting the words to things that we're going to understand because this shows up in the patrol car, it shows up at the EMS station, around the dinner table at the firehouse.
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:40.000
Um, it's everywhere.
00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:48.559
And um so I I just I find it freeing uh because I'm I'm not competing with anybody in the space because nobody else is doing this.
00:44:48.559 --> 00:44:49.280
Yeah.
00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:58.159
Um I mean, they're they're they're speaking about leadership, but not from this angle, um, not with their own personal story involved in it.
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:02.960
And and I I mean, anything that can hurt me is in my first book.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:16.639
My my demotion, my failures as a uh and shortfalls as a as a dad, as a son, as a as a human being, as a cop, that every one of my fears and and every every embarrassing moment is there for the world.
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:28.800
And um, to be able to get up on stage or to have a conversation like this and say, hey man, I'm talking to you today, not because I got it right, it's because I sucked at that and I figured it out.
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:35.679
And I don't want you to use my book as a a cautionary tale or or worse, a crystal ball.
00:45:35.679 --> 00:45:49.920
I want you to use it for what it's for and not step in those same holes and to to get away from social media, to back to your question, to get away from social media and be intentional about my time, my family, and and what it is that I'm gonna do next.
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.199
It's been fantastic.
00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:56.320
I mean, I I found out who my friends were, uh, because there were some unusual suspects that reached out.
00:45:56.320 --> 00:45:58.159
Hey, brother, you've been quiet, are you okay?
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.800
I'm like, I I never expected you to call me or to text me.
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:04.000
That's really cool, man.
00:46:04.000 --> 00:46:04.639
Thanks.
00:46:04.639 --> 00:46:10.480
And there are people that uh, you know, as I said uh offline, my my dad passed at the beginning of June.
00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.920
And um there were people that have been in my life for 25 years that still don't know he's gone.
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:20.079
And there's there's a dude that has has adopted me.
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:32.880
And I'm I'm gonna get emotional here because it um for for no reason other than me being me and him being him, he adopted me in this space and uh has has been a big brother.
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:34.320
And and it's John Kelly.
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:37.760
It should be no secret to anybody at this point that's a big brother.
00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:43.280
He's he's the little brother, he's so no, he's uh he he has adopted me.
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:46.800
And uh, I mean, we talk four and five times a week.
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.119
Um good, like, hey brother, what you got going on?
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:50.079
Hey, head of the gym.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:59.039
You know, we're friends, and when my dad passed, I I let him know, and um he said, I'm here for you, and he he left me alone.
00:46:59.039 --> 00:47:06.239
And um, and it's it's what I needed, but John lives about four-hour drive from me.
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:11.039
And uh the day of my dad's service, I was standing at the door greeting family and all that stuff.
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:17.280
I'm I'm the son, so I'm I'm greeting family, and um just trying to keep my composure.
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.559
And I look up, and John Kelly is standing behind my aunt.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:22.480
He didn't tell me he was coming.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:24.559
I didn't ask him, he didn't say, Do you need me?
00:47:24.559 --> 00:47:25.519
Nothing.
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:34.880
Yeah, got up in the morning, put on a black sport coat, drove four hours with a sandwich in his truck just to be there in case I needed him.
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:39.760
He he drove eight hours round trip to stand in the back of the room for 20 minutes and to give me a hug.
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:43.360
Yeah, brother, who who does that?
00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:46.239
Um, real people, real friends.
00:47:46.239 --> 00:47:47.440
Exactly.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.159
So you know that story this was my first tip.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:55.039
If you know John, you know he's gonna do that.
00:47:55.039 --> 00:48:02.239
My first red flag on the job that something wasn't right, and I there were should have been plenty of red flags, but I was I'm I was like you, Doug.
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:09.039
I was just like so this was, I mean, I was so running so fast, I wasn't I wasn't looking around to sort of see these red flags.
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:13.280
But my first red flag was my mother died in 2016.
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:19.920
One person, the funeral was two hours away.
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:25.519
One person from my agency showed up.
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:38.079
Uh no phone calls from any chiefs, no phone calls from any of my peers, officers, people that work for me, yeah, but no, no, nothing at all.
00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:40.079
Now, at the time I blew that off.
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:46.719
Ah, yeah, everyone's busy, but but now that I've had time to reflect, that was a huge red flag, right?
00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:49.679
Because what did what is what did Rudy Giuliana say during 9-11?
00:48:49.679 --> 00:48:54.880
He said, Weddings are optional, funerals are mandatory from a leadership standpoint, right?
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:57.679
Yeah, and uh that says a lot about John.
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:04.320
Um, because everybody knows it's lost a parent, especially what that is.
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:05.519
Yeah, right.
00:49:05.840 --> 00:49:09.360
Um it was very special.
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:16.639
And I I had a lot of good old close friends uh who love my dad dearly, uh, who really, really showed up.
00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:24.079
And again, there were people that that have been in my life for 25, 30 years that still don't even know he's passed because they haven't called back.
00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:27.440
You know what we do, you know what it's great to know these things.
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:29.679
It sucks to learn a lesson, but it's good to know.
00:49:29.679 --> 00:49:35.599
You know what we do, and I I've pondered this, not that I want it to come anytime soon, but you know what we do in law enforcement, right?
00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:43.519
Like we all have honor guards, and then when retirees die, the honor guard goes out and they do the little ceremony at the grave site.
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.039
But that's kind of a scam, isn't it?
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:51.519
Because nobody's calling you in retirement, nobody cares about you in retirement.
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.039
They show more care after you're dead than when you're alive.
00:49:55.039 --> 00:49:58.960
I've I've seriously thought about telling my wife, I go, I don't need any of that.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:00.239
That's so ridiculous.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:02.320
It's so ridiculous.
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:03.119
I don't know.
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:07.920
I don't know why that came to mind, but it uh and I'm someone that served in the honor guard for a decade.
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:10.159
So I went to many funerals, I didn't know who they were.
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:24.800
I always thought it was honorable to do it, but on the other side of it, I'm thinking, you don't give a shit about me for decades, and now all of a sudden you want to show up at a funeral and wish my wife condolences?
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:26.320
Get out of here.
00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:27.119
Yeah.
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:28.400
Is that too harsh?
00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:30.000
I guess I'm being a little too harsh, right?
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:31.440
It's probably too harsh.
00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:33.039
Who hurt you?
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:37.199
Um uh no, man, I I I can understand that.
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:38.639
And and and that's valid.
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:39.440
That's valid.
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:42.559
How come you weren't calling me when I was when I was having problems?
00:50:42.559 --> 00:50:44.880
How come you didn't call me in the last 20 years?
00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:52.719
I mean, I um since since my case, March 10th of 2020, I was demoted.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:51:00.719
You know how many people from the organization has called me to ask me if I'm doing okay, if I got the you know, EAP or if I found the help that I needed through their resources?
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:03.039
Less than three, less than zero.
00:51:03.039 --> 00:51:05.280
Oh, yeah, none, none.
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:09.760
And and I I know these guys, I came up with them at the at the highest ranks.
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:11.199
I trained some of them.
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:12.880
I mean, you risk your life with them.
00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:14.880
So that's so insane to me, right?
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:18.159
So I I'm I'm not angry.
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:19.440
I I'm really not.
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:20.800
I uh it was actually funny.
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:23.119
That's a blessing because that will eat at your own.
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:24.960
Oh no, no, I I was for a while, buddy.
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.239
I for about two years, I built my my house in Victimville.
00:51:28.239 --> 00:51:29.360
I really did.
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:36.079
Yeah, and uh man, uh, as our friend Tom Rezzo says, real estate's cheap, there's plenty of room.
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:37.440
And there really was.
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:43.119
Um, but once I got out of that, I realized, you know, you can be a victim once, but after that, you're a volunteer.
00:51:43.119 --> 00:51:47.519
And I woke up every day for two years and I gave away my joy for for what?
00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:48.000
Yeah.
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.239
People who weren't thinking about me to begin with.
00:51:50.239 --> 00:51:52.400
Again, it's the biggest lie we've been told.
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:59.920
So I uh I put on my big kid pants and I got back to the work of being who Doug White was supposed to be, and that's where I am today.
00:51:59.920 --> 00:52:11.519
But um, I spoke at a conference recently, and it was a leadership conference, executive leadership, and there were three members of executive leadership from my old organization that were sitting front, row, center.
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:15.280
And um, this was a new frameworks, new everything.
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:25.519
And I I had to lay out the truths uh in front of three people who should have realized I was talking about some of the things that they did and still do.
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:28.400
Not them personally, but the organization.
00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:31.679
And um left them speechless.
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:32.480
And I love it.
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:37.599
Well, kudos if they showed up because I can only imagine some of my uh my old peers would would just be.
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.320
Oh no, no, they they had they had paid for the week anyway.
00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:46.719
Um, so they they were going to be there, but they sat there and one of them made a a comment to me before I started speaking.
00:52:46.719 --> 00:53:00.639
I was already mic'd up and everything, and I'm I'm not gonna get into the comment, but I will say that uh I would like to say that he did it to try to get a rise out of me or to throw me off my game for the presentation that I was about to give for the first time.
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:08.079
Um but I don't think he's such a small person, he doesn't realize he's a small person.
00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:10.000
It's just the way that he speaks to people.
00:53:10.000 --> 00:53:21.519
And I think it's funny because had it been old Doug ten years ago, um I would have come over the table and taken the teeth out of his head.
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:23.440
Yeah, but I'm not that guy anymore.
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:24.000
Right.
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:32.719
And and I just smiled and uh I answered as perfectly as I could and kind of left him pondering that for the next two and a half hours as I spoke.
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:36.880
But um yeah, no, it's it's it's funny.
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:43.280
I people like that, and and I guess to really answer your question, people like that, man.
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:48.079
Um I pity them because they're never gonna know the privilege of leadership.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:53:50.320
You know, people talk about the burden of leadership.
00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:53.119
Well, I'm responsible for this and payroll and that.
00:53:53.119 --> 00:54:11.519
Yeah, okay, those are the administrative things that the privilege of leadership is being able to use your influence, your positional authority, and who you are as a person to influence or to better someone else's position, their life, to add value to them.
00:54:11.519 --> 00:54:15.360
And and if you get to add value to them and the organization, that's a win-win.
00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:20.480
But um, people like that will never know what that feels like.
00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:22.480
And and I do, I know what it feels like.
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:28.079
And I I feel sorry for them that they they're not going to know that.
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.159
So I don't get mad at people, man.
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:33.679
I just like I feel sorry for you because you don't you don't know what this is about.
00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:35.199
You you don't get it yet.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:41.599
And it's unfortunate because the people under you are suffering because, well, you're just you're just deaf.
00:54:41.599 --> 00:54:43.519
You you don't know the room you're in.
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.760
So it's incredible stuff, Doug.
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:50.159
I I don't know your faith, but I I know mine, and I can just see the Holy Spirit working in you.
00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:55.840
I there's it's the future and what you're impacting is you're just tipping your toe in the water, man.
00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:58.159
And I cannot wait to see what the future holds.
00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:59.440
How can people find you?
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:00.960
How can they reach out to you?
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:04.079
Uh well, I'm on all the socials, sporadically.
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:09.440
LinkedIn is where I'm going to be doing most of my work because everything else is just uh it's necessary but gross.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:13.840
So the the bulk of the the mindful content will be on LinkedIn.
00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:19.760
It's Doug White uh or my website that's just been remodeled, uh Doug Whiteofficial.com.
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:25.360
And um my podcast, Tell the Story, will be coming back here pretty shortly, I think.
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:27.039
But uh yeah, man.
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:36.159
Just uh if you want, just uh type in Google, go to Doug White, Hal R A H A L R A, and it's the first thing that comes up.
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:38.719
You'll be able to read the paper, the frameworks, and all that stuff.
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:39.280
It's all there.
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:41.679
We'll link all that in our podcast notes.
00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:44.159
Uh I can't thank you enough, Doug, for being here.
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:46.079
Um amazing stuff.
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:47.519
We're gonna have you back, man.
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:58.559
And uh I don't I'm not gonna be able to compete with John Kelly, but I want to be I want to be around you more because there's very few people that make you better, and you're you're someone that makes other people better.
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:00.079
So thank you so much for being on the show.
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:00.960
Thank you, Travis.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:03.760
And I'm I'll actually see you in Orlando in October.
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:07.119
Uh, Roland Clee has invited me to attend the focus thing.
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:07.920
So I'll see you there.
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:08.800
That's exciting, man.
00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:10.320
Roland's doing phenomenal work out there.
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:10.880
Oh, he is.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:12.079
Good, good man, good man.
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:14.400
I can't wait to make sure he doesn't make you pay.
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.039
You're on me.
00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:16.960
So I know it's already it's already taken care of.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:17.920
That's gonna be awesome.
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:21.679
So uh if you've been watching, you've been listening, I mean, thank you for doing that.
00:56:21.679 --> 00:56:23.199
Thank you to Doug White.
00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:27.440
Thank you to all of you, and just remember lead on and stay courageous.
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:32.400
Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates.
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:37.440
We invite you to join other courageous leaders at TravisYates.org.