Cut the Rope: Patrick Sells on Courage, Faith, and Starting Over

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Welcome to Courageous by Crossroads Apologetics.
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A look into what motivates us to step out in courage and the everyday bravery of men and women like you.
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In each episode, we hear a personal story of bravery centered around this question: What's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
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And now your host, founder of Crossroads Apologetics, Jeff Johnson.
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Hey everybody, this is Jeff.
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Welcome back to another edition of the Courageous Crossroads Podcast where we ask that question, What's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
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And my next guest, Patrick Sells, is a friend of mine.
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I haven't seen him in quite a while.
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But uh, we got to catch up.
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You're gonna hear a little bit of that, you're gonna hear a whole lot about his backstory, and you're gonna hear a man who's not necessarily at the end of the race, but in a lot of ways at the beginning, or maybe in the middle, I don't know, how he answers that question.
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What's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
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You're gonna be inspired with Patrick's authenticity and inspired with how he answers that question.
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So without further ado, here's Patrick.
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Well, thanks, Patrick, for being with us today.
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Um, it's great to see you again.
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Same Jeff, thanks for having me on and been looking forward to our conversation as well as catching up with you.
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That's great.
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Well, for the benefit of our listeners, Patrick is a friend of mine, but he and I don't run in the same circles.
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He's hither and yawn across the country, and I'm in the other direction sometimes.
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So our paths haven't crossed in what did we say, six or seven years?
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Probably at least, uh maybe closer to nine or ten, but it so it's been a few years.
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Yeah.
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Well, I had such a strong impression when I met you the first time, and um you are an impressive guy, and so I'm tickled that you came on the program today, and we can talk about courage and learn a little bit more about you.
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Thanks, Jeff.
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And uh it's been fun uh when you asked me to do this and been listening to some of the episodes you have done and all the great conversations that have been had, and uh it's an honor to be able to participate today.
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Oh, that's great.
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I'm always curious when I because courage is, you know, and that's a big topic.
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And I just think it's a really everybody's got that.
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Everybody's got something to say when I ask them the question, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
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But what's your initial reaction to that when you get invited to a podcast like this?
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Are you like, man, I haven't done nothing?
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By or is it like, no, I've got one that really comes to mind right away, or what's your reaction to it?
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You know, Jeff, uh in truth, I I ended up uh calling my mother probably.
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Uh moms are good for something all of life, right?
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And uh I love my mom and called her because in ways, you know, I think there's uh probably more courageous moments than I should be proud of.
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Some of those kind of self-induced, if you will, and other times I think just the way God made me.
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And so, you know, I think whenever we have qualifiers like the most in something, it it can kind of freeze you up.
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And so uh called her to talk through, you know, some of those moments to try to figure out you know what came to mind to her.
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And uh, but uh I guess to answer your question, I I didn't have any uh, you know, I didn't draw a blank on courageous moments.
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You're like, I got something to talk about.
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I got a couple things to talk about.
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Yeah, well, I that's great.
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I'd love to hear that.
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Okay, so let me ask you some very personal and probing questions.
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How old are you?
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Uh 35.
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Okay, so you got 35 years of walking planet Earth.
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You certainly run into some courageous endeavors doing that.
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And um, can you tell me, tell our audience whatever kind of elevator speech you want to give so that people can put you in context?
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Who are you?
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What do you do for a living?
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What kind of family do you have?
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Whatever you want to share.
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Sure.
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And I use this as a moment to also maybe set some uh the stage for the the to answer the question in the big story, if you will.
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Okay.
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Uh so living in Dallas now, 35, I've been uh entrepreneur, intrapreneur really my whole life, um, growing up.
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We moved a good bit uh about every two, three years and all over the country.
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And then when was when I was 16, moved to Cornfield in Indiana, found about 2,000 people.
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And I stayed there for almost a decade, uh, studied political science, and somewhere along the way, while in college, I decided I was gonna be an entrepreneur, I guess, and started my first company.
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It was a digital marketing agency and did that for many years.
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And as I was doing that, you know, some clients ended up being bigger than others and ended up kind of quasi-running certain different companies and investing in them.
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And had gotten married uh right out of college, went to a small Christian school, Taylor University.
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Uh I think I mentioned studied politics, so uh mainly because you needed 128 credit hours to graduate, and it was the only degree that was 128 hours so that I could get out.
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That works.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, went to church my whole life, and you know, my parents were very strong Christians and really think of my childhood as being pretty idyllic in in many ways.
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Got married, you know, again, kind of in my mind, thought I was checking all the boxes.
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I was a virgin when I got married, so was she.
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And then we were married for a little more than two years, and we ended up getting divorced.
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Um, right after we'd had uh a daughter, Lucy, who today is almost 10 years old and the absolute uh love of my life.
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And she's actually here with me because we get a good bit of the summer together.
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Wow.
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Um but as a side note, Lucy's grown up in Little Rock, uh, and I've counted uh or attracted a little over 4,000 hours of commuting to Little Rock every other week uh to see her as I've gone around the country.
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Uh but you know, when when that happened, uh it really shattered a lot of what I thought kind of, you know, the world how the world was supposed to work.
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Uh and not only, you know, was I all of a sudden divorced with my daughter living somewhere else, uh, I'd gone from kind of being pretty financially successful for my age at 25 to basically in debt uh as a result of all of that, and uh didn't quite know what to do other than I wanted to try to probably do the opposite of everything I had done up to that point.
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And one of my clients was a community bank in New York called Quantic.
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And I gotten to know this, the owner and founder, Steve uh Schnall, very well.
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And he Monday we were having martinis in the Hamptons, and he said, you know, I think you could run a bank.
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And so, you know, it in some ways it was a big moment of courage to kind of leave a world that I was kind of a big, I made myself somewhat of a big fish in a small pond to go work for someone else for the first time in a highly regulated industry that I knew absolutely nothing about, and uh on the spot said yes.
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And so uh moved to New York City and joined this little bank.
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At the time, I like to joke I wasn't a banker and didn't know the idea of due diligence.
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What I didn't know was the bank was also one step away from a cease and desist.
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But here I am, a you know, kid from the cornfields living in New York City, uh, working at this uh tiny 500 million in assets community bank.
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Um, and part of the idea that Steve and I had bonded over was he too wasn't really a banker.
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He had bought it during the recession, 2008 recession, and had hadn't really been actively involved in it himself.
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But you know, fintech and tech was getting hot and crypto, and we thought we could take this little bank and turn it into a digital bank.
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And that was really kind of the impetus for you know, meet me to join.
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And so did that and um, you know, wasn't really sure how to even think of myself or who am I in this context.
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I didn't feel like an entrepreneur anymore.
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Uh, wasn't sure I wanted to be, you know, a Christian or not anymore, um, and kind of wanted to get lost.
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Yeah.
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And that's a great thing about New York is you you can do just that or just about anything you want, you want there.
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Yeah.
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Um, and along the way, I was there for about two and a half years, and Steven ended up becoming my best friend in life.
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Uh, and had we five or six X the you know, profitability of the bank, and you know, I was the number two guy and you know, really loved life.
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Um, I was honored to be recognized as digital banker of the year, and you know, I somehow found myself in a very comfortable kind of spot, even though it wasn't Indianapolis anymore, in this whole new world.
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And it was around that time I really felt like God speak to me again, and maybe as clearly as I felt I'd ever heard him speak, around kind of how there was a bigger point and purpose to my life and you know who I am, and you know, not just an entrepreneur or a business person, and that he was calling me to something grand.
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And that was about two years into the journey.
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And when Steve and I had started, one of the ideas we had was what if you could have a debit card that gave you Bitcoin rewards?
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You know, at the time, Bitcoin was this new thing and didn't really trust going to place like Coinbase, didn't realize that you know, that wasn't, you know, quote unquote legal in the world of banking, of course.
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And but during those two and a half years, uh somehow found a way to solve the legal and regulatory uh world of bringing Bitcoin and blockchain blockchain to banking.
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And we were the first bank to launch a Bitcoin-related product.
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Um, you know, and from there, our partner, which was a large uh asset management management firm on Wall Street, kind of plucked me up and said, you know, come do this in the what felt like the at for the Yankees.
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Uh and so did that, and you know, we we built a$7 billion business within uh 12 months.
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And so I kind of paused there because it kind of brings me into a bit of the store, the story I want to tell.
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But you maybe that as a backdrop, you know, I'm I'm a dad, love being a dad, uh, love being an entrepreneur, and I've chased a series of uncorrelated problems with no experience, and each and every one of them I've ran at.
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Yeah, and I love that backstory, Patrick.
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That's that's fantastic, and it puts you in great context.
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The other hallmark I'm seeing there is uh there's success.
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You know, you've got a comet's tale of success.
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You talked about the one where you went from affluence and very successful to a situation of debt, but it appears as though it turns around and it rises again.
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Has that been your history?
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Yeah, you know, grew up, I wouldn't say I I knew I was poor, and I don't know that I would say that is true, but definitely didn't have any money.
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And I think a series of life where, you know, be successful, made some money, and then ultimately every time I walked away from you know the comfort of where I was, whether that was making a million dollars a year to try to do something I'd never done, and making five million dollars a year, and then walking away again from that to go try to do it again, and at times uh being upside down and then you know, somehow getting up and out of it.
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And so definitely uh that would be true of the near the arc of my life has been uh taking big leaps and sometimes getting knocked back and finding a way to get back on top of it.
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Oh, I love it.
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So I don't want to I don't want you to answer the question yet, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
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But I want you to tell me because what I see pictured here is somebody who has um uh you're not troubled with fear, it doesn't seem to me.
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Is that accurate?
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Like you run into the storm, you're okay with that.
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I I would say so.
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Uh for whatever reason, my brain uh just kind of processes it very differently.
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Uh, much, much probably to my mother's chagrin, but uh it I do just process it differently.
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And uh, you know, related to this, actually, I the other day I was looking through some old photos on my phone to find some one of my daughter, and I found a cover of a magazine shoot, I guess I had done almost a decade ago in Indianapolis.
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And uh on it, there's this quote that I don't even recall making, but I I know is probably very true.
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Uh, for me, is every failure will lead to growth, and that's a positive defining end, says Patrick.
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When I fail, I only care that I grew and can overcome it.
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And so somehow I think I was just wired to say, okay, failure doesn't, it's not, it's it's not an end game.
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It just means I got a chance to try again smarter the next time and stand back up.
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Yeah, or based on that quote, it almost sounds like it's part of the process.
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So you're like, I'm gonna have this.
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Yeah, you know, and I I don't know how much this really, you know, consciously or subconsciously uh played itself out, but one of the you know things of my childhood I do really remember latching on to was the belief that God will redeem all things in this life or the next.
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And uh, I don't know if I maybe took that theologically too far with it's okay to fail because there will be redemption.
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Uh, but I just kind of have always been able to let go of the fear of failure.
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Well, this is this is right smack dab in the middle of the lane that we're talking about today, addressing this topic of courage.
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So just go right on ahead for me, Patrick, if you would and define courage.
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What's what's Patrick Sells say courage is?
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You know, um two different ways, I guess I would answer that question.
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One, it's almost the ability to take what can feel like you know, you know, palatable emotions that aren't grounded necessarily in reality but feel very real and be able to make a decision anyways.
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Uh, and that may be as much about kind of like the process of it, but I think courage a lot of times in small ways or big ways is the willingness to overcome one's own emotions.
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And I think uh the maybe in a more practical way, it's I'm going to I'm willing to do something agnostic to the outcomes and personal ramifications, right?
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And so whether that's standing up for something you believe in or you know, not doing something because of conviction you have, ultimately then you're willing to pay whatever consequence uh there is on the other side of that decision.
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That's a great definition.
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That's a wonderful definition.
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Um I'm thinking of the movie uh free solo.
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I can't think of the guy's name, David Honnell, or I don't know if that's his first name, but forgive me.
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But he's the mountain climber that does these massive free solos.
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And they they took him in and gave him a CAT scan or an MRI.
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And that part of the brain that registers fear just as he didn't have it.
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So that could be that could be kind of like you too.
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Or you're just your physiology might be a little bit different and it results in bravery.
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But I want to ask you, based on your uh definition of courage, do you see that in other people?
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Are there other people that inspire you with that?
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Can you can you pick it out in a crowd and go, that's what that guy's exhibiting courage or that woman's exhibiting courage?
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Yes and no.
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I I don't know.
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I think um it it's so easy to mask behaviors, to mask the the real truths in all of us.
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Uh I don't know that I'd want to walk into a room or you know, try try to guess who's being courageous or not.
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Um so probably would answer no, but would say have some you know decent probabilistic guess as to uh what's going on, but you know, not enough to where I'd want to make a bet on it.
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But you know, you you shared that about the free solo climber.
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And I do remember in my early 20s going and doing a pretty intensive kind of brain scan study.
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And one of the things that stood out was the place where I guess a lot of uh electrical activity happens for in and around you know, the feeling of anxiety.
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I'm closer to brain dead than not.
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Uh, and so that maybe that's maybe that's part of it.
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Uh, or at least that's my memory of how that went.
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But you know, like it's been a decade since I did that, but there probably is something to the neuro wiring, if you will.
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Yeah.
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Well, and and also, you know, it's interesting.
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I was on a uh prayer call earlier this morning, and our topic was uh 1 John chapter 4, verse 18 that talks about perfect love casts out all fear.
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It's a binary in the Bible.
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So love and fear can't coexist.
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You talked about your faith and growing up in a faithful household, and then that got challenged, you know, after your marriage failed.
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Where do you stand now with faith?
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And is that part of what keeps you from anxiety?
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Because God tells us over and over again, don't be anxious.
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It's hard for us not to, but he tells us to.
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And if you're there already, it could just be faith.
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Yeah, you know, I I think over my 35 years, there's been a lot of maybe emotional oscillations or volatility with kind of faith, but through all of my life, I have never lost a very solid mental conviction around uh my faith, if you will.
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Even in the dark years of running in New York, you know, I still held on to the belief that God will redeem all things, the father does give good gifts, love does cast out fear, and uh in some ways, kind of find life simpler to just take things as truth and not question them until and unless they you know prove to be different or prove to be false.
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Um so in ways, I I do think my faith definitely has helped in that regard.
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I do think there's probably some of it that is my neurological wiring uh that has kind of pushed it to an extreme, if you will.
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Uh so probably both.
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Probably both.
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Both and yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um do you feel like we live in a courageous world?
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No.
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Do you?
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No.
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No.
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And I might be the I might be the f first poster child that'd raise my own hand and be self-effacing.
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But you know, that I don't I don't mean to be maybe I should not be trying to be so cute about that.
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I think it goes on and off.
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I think there are times, you know, when um when I try to shelter myself and that doesn't feel as courageous, but then there's other times when I'm you know, I I look the thing square in the eye and I take a gulp and I make a step.
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And I'd like to think over time doing that becomes more rote as opposed to to the other.
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But yeah, I don't think we live in a very courageous world, but you describe that for me.
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Yeah, uh don't want to, you know, at the risk of pontificating.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:20:03.119
One of the things I've thought a lot about over the years is the the concept of resilience.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:10.720
And I think as humans, we are incredibly deeply, fundamentally, inherently resilient.
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:25.359
Um, and whether that's the loss of someone or how you know, growing up in extreme poverty, war, cancer, abuse, I mean, you just think of all the things, and the the human, if you will, is just resilient.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:37.680
And I think as we you know grow older, even from an early age, we also in parallel tend to fragilize ourselves and others ever more so.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.640
No longer really want to test that resiliency, right?
00:20:42.799 --> 00:21:02.799
Like, especially in a country like America or in affluent circles or religious circles, it's like in some ways I see the tendency to fragilize, you know, extremely so, and no longer really want to lean on, exercise, rely on, or believe in that resiliency.
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:06.960
And yeah, I mean, when resiliency is tested, it does hurt.
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:12.079
Uh, but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing or a wrong thing.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:22.960
Uh, and I think, you know, probably one's conviction and my own ability to be resilient is probably highly correlated to the degree in which they will exercise courage in their life.
00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:31.680
That's now I want you to pontificate because there's a lot of good stuff in there, Patrick.
00:21:32.000 --> 00:21:33.119
But I get what you're saying.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.759
So you're you're equating life to being to touching a hot stove.
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:40.000
And over time you don't want to do it.
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.440
You know, you learn not to do it.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.160
That's the fragilizing that we're talking about.
00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:51.440
And my comment was uh I'd like to think courage builds more courage, builds more courage over time.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:57.279
So maybe the maybe the analogy of a hot stove is probably a bad idea, but I but I take your point.
00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:03.440
Yeah, and and I just since Said the pontificate, you know, at face react at face value.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.440
I don't know that I would agree that courage begets courage.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:09.839
Talk about that.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:20.640
I think there are virtues, if you will, like generosity, where I I do tend I've always thought of them more as a muscle.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.960
If I give, I tend to be more willing to give and give and give.
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:32.160
Um for whatever reason, again, kind of face value, courage to me falls in this bucket of something.
00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.480
I it's more temporary in nature.
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.559
Will I exercise it or not?
00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:44.400
And there's a lot of probably inputs that go into each and every one of those moments when we're presented with, am I going to be courageous or not?
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:50.400
Um, that have to get factored, and a lot of them are probably irrational or grounded in emotions.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:23:03.200
Whereas I think resilience, the belief in oneself of I will be okay, I can be okay, uh begets courage, if you will.
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:11.599
Like it's more, I think of it more of a derivative of um a real focus on the belief and resiliency.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.319
I don't know.
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:28.400
Um, I also don't know that look uh having too much conviction around one's own resiliency necessarily is a great way of living life because you're probably gonna break yourself a lot uh and live a very different life.
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.200
But again, I don't know if that's bad or not.
00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.640
If you did the resiliency, see, this is good, Patrick.
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:37.920
Now we're getting into the deep end.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:50.319
If you if you had resiliency and you recognize that as a good quality, but then all of a sudden it started to uh interface with pride, then I think that turns into a bad thing.
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:58.880
But if you can keep that resiliency with the humility and keep moving forward, then I think you can have a courageous result, maybe.
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.279
Yeah.
00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.640
But okay.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.160
This is great.
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:04.240
You had something else to say.
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:14.400
No, I mean again, uh a lot of that I'm sure as I think about that little dialogue we had later today, I'll go, I you know, I I meant to say this, I was trying to commute articulate that.
00:24:14.559 --> 00:24:26.480
Uh, but I think it was a fun conversation, and I do think there's something between one's own understanding of their their inherent resilientness that probably matters a lot.
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:27.599
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:32.079
Do you have you considered yourself a courageous person?
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:35.359
I would say I've considered myself a resilient person.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:35.839
Okay.
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.599
Until I almost until I almost broke myself.
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:50.880
Uh but in some ways, then I guess yes again, because probably how at least today I've been in mental model thinking of the interplay of the two.
00:24:51.119 --> 00:25:01.839
Uh, because I say I believe that I've been a resilient person, and it's something I've intentionally thought about, but it has led me to be courageous more often than not.
00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:14.880
You just know you just know whatever this world throws at you, and you're not asking for it, but you just have a confidence that whatever this world throws at you, you're you're gonna withstand it, you're gonna come back.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:16.400
It's not gonna keep you down.
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.640
You've got that understanding about yourself.
00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:24.799
Ever since I was a kid, the sense of hey, the sun is still going to rise tomorrow.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:29.119
I will, I can find a way to smile again.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:34.000
It's like that's just a choice.
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:36.160
And it's it and it's a recognition of reality.
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:46.799
I mean, people grow live in all kinds of far worse scenarios in day-to-day life, and yet they can still be okay, still do great things.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:50.559
Uh so it's it's possible.
00:25:50.880 --> 00:26:03.920
Um, and even to the to you know, pushing it farther to say, should I try to break something in my own life to make sure that I'm just like I tried to break a muscle to grow it?
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.920
Uh and you know, there's a book, Anti-Fragile, that talks about some of this as well.
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.359
Um but I do think that's probably important.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:27.680
Walsh at GE was famous for taking his 10% of his customers that were weren't performing as well as the lowest 10%, and just would chop them off.
00:26:28.240 --> 00:26:32.799
That's to your point of you know, forcing an issue where you had to be resilient.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:33.599
Yeah.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:38.400
Uh the belief we are the average of the five people we spend the most time around.
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:47.839
And if at some point in my life I find myself spending time, a lot of time with someone who I deeply love, but I'm not sure I want to be like them, am I willing to end that relationship?
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:48.960
Yeah.
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:51.039
Wow.
00:26:51.759 --> 00:26:55.599
Um it's a great conversation, Patrick.
00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:02.000
Uh so let's come down to the question then, because I really want to know, and I'm sure our listeners want to know too.
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.839
Patrick Sells, what's the most courageous thing you've ever done?
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:25.599
Yeah, so picking up on that kind of backdrop, um, and one of my probably all-time favorite movie scenes uh is in you know, Batman the Dark Knight, when uh he's he's down in that cave uh in that kind of prison where there's no guards and there's no gates, right?
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:47.119
And there's just that kind of rope, and he tries to you know climb out and jumps and can never quite make that last you know handhold to get out, and he keeps breaking his body trying to, and then he has to, you know, realizes he has to cut the rope to safety net because only then will he care, will he be able to jump enough.
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:55.519
And at the same time, I wonder like to what degree if I don't cut it, will I just keep living this insanity of breaking myself?
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:58.559
And I would rather either die or get out, right?
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:00.000
Type conviction.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:07.039
Um, and so I kind of had that moment in my life, I'd say, where I had to cut the rope.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:15.759
I was in New York, and um, as I mentioned, you know, kind of at the pinnacle of success, success, uh, in every which way.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:23.359
Um, and at the same time, began to feel myself changing.
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:49.119
And I was afraid that I was going to become too hardened internally into you know money and power in the way of uh kind of extreme intellect and really lose the the the personal side of me, the the part of me that loves people and family and life, and just I don't know.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:59.039
Um and I'd say without you know saying details, I can't, I I had somehow found I made it.
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.559
And I had securely made it.
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:07.680
Um and in a way where I was the guy.
00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:11.119
Uh and I quit.
00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:20.079
Um, and I think you know, I I told you when I'd been at Quantic, the the bank, and I felt God kind of called me or speak to me.
00:29:20.319 --> 00:29:42.400
When all that journey happened, I really felt like it was living out this great thing, you know, that had I had held on to, and uh having to come face to face with wait a minute, I don't either I mess this up or I misunderstood, or I don't know because this doesn't feel like it's right.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:52.000
This, you know, and how could and I I tell you, I was probably beyond confused, but angry, bitter.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:30:02.079
Um, and I walked away from an incredible amount of money and safety.
00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:12.240
Uh, and people, I love to go with a lot of good things about it because I wanted to say, hey, there's my life, it's not just about the success, other things are going to matter.
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:16.480
And I really want to bring the full Patrick to life.
00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:27.119
Um, and so I cut that rope with the belief that okay, hey, you know, I I've got kind of a plan, I can make it through.
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.400
Um, I didn't quite know what I was gonna do.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:41.839
Uh, and about two months later, my best friend in life, Steve, who I'd done that bank with, um, was supposed to buy the stock I had in the bank from me.
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:57.039
We had agreed to this uh a while back, and I had you know borrowed some money on a short-term note to buy a house uh to get out of New York, and um Steve's killed in a car accident.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:06.559
And so now I've kind of cut the rope to say I'm gonna try to reinvent myself again, but I have kind of my safety, I have a kind of a plan.
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:19.599
And then all of a sudden he's gone, and I own a house with only illiquid assets, and I have a multi-million dollar note due uh and no income.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:28.720
Um and started another business, and uh, you know, it got off to a great start.
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.839
There was a lot of pressure, frankly, uh, you know, financially to try to figure it out.
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:43.440
But I I flew around the country with hearts on a hat and bus and plane, and I told banks across the country that I loved them and I had this.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:51.279
I mean, it felt like I was able to bring the part of me that wasn't just the intellect, but the love for people.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:32:04.400
And uh it seemed like there for a minute, you know, I was gonna be able to pull it off fast enough that it was also gonna solve all these, you know, kind of problems that were brewing in the background.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.119
Uh but it I crashed out before I got there.
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:35.039
Um, and so I guess the moment of courage was to say, hey, this despite having started off on what felt like God's calling to do this really big thing that turned out when I got closer to it, maybe wasn't that at all, and was going I the risk of losing myself to okay, I'm gonna take a leap and do something different.
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:43.359
And despite then, you know, some things happening, thought I was gonna pull it off, and then I didn't.
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:49.920
And uh, I guess my belief in resiliency uh was really tested.
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:59.519
Uh, and can talk more about you know, kind of what happened and the lessons that learned, but uh, I guess I'll I'll pause there in terms of kind of the moment of leaving.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:00.799
Wow.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:05.680
Did you go back to New York?
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:10.640
Were you fleeing something in New York or were you running to something?
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:24.240
Because you said it wasn't you wanted to you wanted to become the fullness of what God made you to be, but you were talking about New York as if it was kind of it's all that, but it it wasn't what you were looking for.
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:40.480
Yeah, look, I mean, I think when I went to New York, I was running from anything I knew, but then while there kind of found it seemed like you know, an even better fitting success and impact and calling.
00:33:40.640 --> 00:34:12.400
And then I think I, you know, being in that world of interacting with billionaires every day and making that kind of money, and you know, playing the quote unquote business game at that level, I begin to sense that it was going to become my idol and it was going to consume me, and I was not going to be able to get back to the like I feel like God made me both with uh unique IQ and EQ.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:19.599
And uh I wasn't gonna be able to get back to the EQ love piece.
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:33.599
It was just gonna be, you know, 100 hours a week and go do this and go do this and go make that and do right, and no longer caring about like, do I love my neighbor, my do I love my family, what kind of person am I?
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:38.800
I'm just a highly, highly successful tool that makes a lot of money.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:47.599
And so I guess I was running from those things becoming too close to my heart, yeah, if you will.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:48.400
Yeah.
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:50.800
Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:57.039
So the most courageous thing you've done is to take a chance.
00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:01.039
It didn't work out, but you're yet resilient.
00:35:01.360 --> 00:35:15.440
Yeah, I I think the most courageous thing was to walk away from, like I said, at the kind of pinnacle of success uh and being financially in every way secure.
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:29.039
Um I gotta I can't I can't say certain things, uh but you know, to I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I feel like there's something that God wants this wasn't it, and there's something deeper to it.
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:38.639
And so just to to walk away from all of that, what you know from as a kid in the cornfield and kind of just the way it all went was a big, big, big, big moment.
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:59.440
And so I guess I would frame up the courageous thing was kind of it's like one day I got to the Yankees, you know, despite not being really meant to play professional baseball, and all of a sudden I'm we're about to go to the World Cup, and it's like I don't think this is what God has for me, and I'm just gonna walk away.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:01.039
Wow.
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.920
Wow, that takes an awful lot of resilience.
00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:06.719
So you've you've clearly landed on your feet now.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:08.480
I'd say I'm I'm starting.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:24.960
So yeah, to kind of bring this together, I think the the reason my belief and resiliency in that moment was hey, I'm I can cut the rope, I can make this jump, I'm gonna walk away from all of this and go figure it out because I believe in myself and I know it'll be okay.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:30.079
Um and I thought I had a plan to make sure I was gonna be okay.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:41.039
60 days after that kind of exercise and courage or belief and resiliency, when my friend was killed, everything began to fall apart.
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:54.079
Um at the same time, it seemed like with the kind of just tremendous early success I'd had with this latest business that was taking place, uh, it seemed like that I'd made the right call.
00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:14.719
Um, you know, and but I wasn't able to outrun, I guess, the the pressures and stress and unforeseen things of what you know kind of financially was happening behind the scenes and started uh abusing medicine and drugs and and crashed out.
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:18.960
I mean, I I it took myself to to rehab.
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:28.239
I lost a you know, I went from a really, I mean, I financially being made to uh financially very stressful to financially devastated moment.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:47.599
Um and I'd say, you know, within a year of leaving, I I was pretty devastated um and depressed for the first time in life and really struggled to not want to give up on myself.
00:37:48.320 --> 00:38:10.400
Um, and so you know, I don't know that I've ever tried to articulate all this uh out loud in kind of a story format, but I guess that moment, what felt like the moment of courage of walking away from everything was a really big moment, but in ways the bigger moment was gonna come uh a year later when you know it's like I cut the rope.
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:16.639
I thought I I had the hand my hand you know in the wall to get out, and then the wall crumbled and I just felt.
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:17.199
Yeah.
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:26.159
Uh and I think then it was okay, did I you know was all this these things I believed in in myself true?
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:27.840
Do I still believe those?
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:28.880
What happened?
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.079
Did I make the right decision and leaving?
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:38.000
What happened to that, you know, kind of felt like God moment in my life after everything the first time?
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:41.280
How could this have all gone so wrong?
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:49.360
Um how you know I I was really lost in the mud.
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:51.440
We're catching you, Patrick.
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.000
I love this story so much.
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:56.159
Oh, I love this story.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:39:02.480
We're catching you with the analogy of the dark knight, cutting the rope and making the leap.
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.639
But we're not talking about you climbing out of the pit yet.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:14.400
We're talking about you bumping your head again, but now you're up, dusting yourself back off, and you're ready to get back up and go after it again.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.800
And that really is courage.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.159
Yeah, that is resilience as you as you discuss.
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:23.280
And it's beautiful, and all of us can relate to that.
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:24.400
Yeah, exactly.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:31.039
It's not a story where, hey, look, here, here I I made this decision and look at what played out, right?
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:37.119
Like, um, I'm a couple years past it all, and like I'm back on my feet.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:41.440
Uh, I did cut the rope, and then it's like everything that could have gone wrong went wrong.
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:44.719
I fell and probably broke every bone in my body.
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:50.639
Um, and somehow the little light inside of me didn't give up.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:59.360
Um, and I'm here today uh and you know, in a much better spot, happy and in and engaged.
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:05.039
I think I'm still there's still a lot of questions in my mind about like what the heck was all that.
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:09.760
And uh, you know, the it's quieter now than it used to be.
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:15.360
And then uh there's also a lot of good things that have happened um that couldn't have happened.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:29.599
But yeah, I mean, I'm I'm probably like a lot of people, it's like okay, it took a big leap, kind of you know, it crap hit the fan, and now I gotta figure out what was that.
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:38.880
But we're just jumping in, we're just jumping into a segment of the story though, and it's like the you know, so you you you don't know.
00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:42.960
I don't know, but the thing that is so powerful is that you cut the rope.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:50.239
I mean, I'm sitting here right now being inspired, uh wondering about the rope that I'm tethered to, trying to make the leap.
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:53.440
And I think, don't you think everybody can relate to that, Patrick?
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:55.039
Yeah, for sure.
00:40:55.199 --> 00:41:04.880
And I I guess you know, it's one thing, and this is where I'd say I probably was, though I didn't understand until this happened a couple years ago.
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:17.440
Like I saw that clip and I understood it, it inspired me, but I guess I thought, well, if I ever cut the rope, should I ever cut the rope, I'll make it too.
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:22.079
And then I didn't.
00:41:22.480 --> 00:41:25.920
Um yet, yeah, I didn't, and yeah, exactly.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:42.159
But uh I I will, and I will make it, and I it did bring me to really question myself and some of those things around resiliency, but then it all did play itself out and is playing itself out.
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:53.599
God is redeeming all things, and some of it look is my fault, some of it was just terrible luck, some of it I don't understand, and I may not see that redemption in my lifetime, but I'm okay with that.
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:55.280
I I can let that go.
00:41:55.599 --> 00:42:11.360
Um, and I I think that's what it is, you know, that's what it's about, is like I am willing to take those hard consequences that could come, and it doesn't always play itself out the way we hoped or wanted.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:14.480
Uh and that's okay.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.440
Wow.
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:22.400
I I well I don't want to be self-effacing, and here I'm gonna do it.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:30.559
I don't know if I'm that good of an interviewer because I want to say how what an inspiring uh interview this is, and I don't want to slobber on you too much.
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:36.239
But you know, the Bible says what does it profit a man if he gains a whole world but loses his soul?
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:40.800
And do we want to talk to the do we want to talk to the resilient person?
00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:44.800
Do we want to talk to the courageous person at the end of the story?
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:52.159
Or do we want to talk to him uh at the climax, you know, you know, when everything comes together?
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.679
Or do we want to talk to him when he's when he's getting started, when he's been knocked down.
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:03.360
And there it is, you know, the look in his eye, and he's dust himself off, and he's saying, I'm not out of the fight yet.
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:05.039
Here I go, because I trust the Lord.
00:43:05.119 --> 00:43:08.159
I know what he said to me, I know I'd made the right decision.
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:13.119
You know, I was not being my the person that God put me here to be.
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:18.239
I I think this is this is super inspirational.
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:20.960
I I think we've got to talk about that more.
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:34.880
You know, you asked me if I thought the world was courageous, I don't tend to think it is, and I think one of the small things we can do is be more open about the moments we're in, because I think it's how you get through them uh more often than not.
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:46.800
But yeah, look, I mean, I tell you story, you know, I hear here I was in a sense, you know, virgin before I get married, and my mind is like, okay, if you do these things, then it's gonna work.
00:43:46.960 --> 00:43:47.920
It didn't work.
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:52.719
And you you said that the, you know, was what's the point you gain the whole world and lose your soul?
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:56.800
I mean, that was exactly what was on my heart when I chose to quit.
00:43:58.000 --> 00:43:59.360
And then everything broke.
00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:11.039
So now I would imagine you're having some interesting conversations with God, Patrick, if you even give him the time of day lately.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.239
But Lord, what's what's going on?
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:26.719
It is a reckless abandonment or a reckless belief that God does redeem all things and uh that we do have free will and he is in control.
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:39.920
And I think there's a lot of like I remember this sermon John uh John Piper way back in the day that you know what it to be a theologian is to wrestle with two things that are both true and in contradiction to each other, and to be okay sitting in that.
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:45.039
Uh there's a lot of life that I wish I could understand.
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:48.559
I don't know that I get it all, and I'm also okay with that.
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:54.960
Um, and I do think that uh look in ways probably closer.
00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:00.239
My conviction in God and belief in him is only stronger through all of my life.
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:07.039
Like I said, I think there's emotion, there's more what I would say emotional volatility in it all.
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:14.880
But I like I don't think I'm still standing here simply because I, Patrick sells the human, thought he was resilient enough.
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:30.639
Uh there has to be a belief in something greater than that and in God, and so there's still a great thing to be done, and I'm just along for the ride with all my sins, mistakes, blessings, gifts, and curses, right?
00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:31.280
Yeah.
00:45:31.440 --> 00:45:32.320
Uh yeah.
00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:41.280
I guess I'm probably more hopeful and optimistic about life than ever before because I don't I I've seen a lot of lows.
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:51.920
Look, you got yeah, whenever I'm given a talk, I always say we got two choices either God's everything or he's nothing.
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:52.639
That's it.
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:57.360
You don't have anywhere in between to land because he doesn't give us that option, as C.S.
00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:58.880
Lewis so aptly puts it.
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.480
Either God's everything or he's nothing.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:02.719
And if he's everything, that means that his word is true.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:05.519
Every bit of it, every jot and tittle.
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:14.400
And he says in Ephesians 2.10 that we're God's masterpiece, we're his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do the things that he put us here to do.
00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:16.800
That's a very, very, very good thing.
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:21.440
We mix it up because I now I'm preaching, Patrick, forgive me, but you're inspiring me.
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:22.000
I told you.
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:33.199
But we mix it up, I think, because we think it's the Lamborghini and it's the three houses, and it's the family that looks like this, and it's the and that's not what it is.
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:38.480
We are God's masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus to do the things that He put us here to do.
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.559
And those things are so uh eternally important, but they're God's things to do.
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:51.920
Maybe I'm supposed to hug somebody today, maybe I'm supposed to do a good deed, maybe I'm supposed to maybe make a billion dollars.
00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:52.719
You know what I mean?
00:46:53.199 --> 00:47:02.400
But it's it's for each of us, and and you're standing right at the precipice of that saying, God, this doesn't make sense.
00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:06.239
I've been courageous, I listened, and I'm trusting you.
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:07.360
We'll see.
00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:09.039
And I that's powerful.
00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:15.679
Uh you know, there's so many different, I don't know, narratives or things in life that are happening all at once, right?
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:28.719
And like I think it's we it's a we sell it short if we try to just like pick one narrative or arc of what's going on because it's it's it's more you know multiverse than not in some ways, although I don't love that phrase.
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:38.800
But like, for example, I think one of the things God had to teach me or get me to pay attention to was I I needed to be sober and I've I'm now sober.
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:47.280
Uh you know, and so you try to think, okay, well, hey, I I take these moments of corruption, you know, courage and these things work, these things don't work.
00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:52.320
And if you just focus on what broke, maybe you don't pay attention to all the other things that were going on, right?
00:47:52.480 --> 00:48:00.000
And so uh I don't think it was just for that purpose, but that has been one of the upshots of is like, okay.
00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:01.920
Fantastic.
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:03.920
That's something I can I can learn from.
00:48:04.079 --> 00:48:05.360
Yeah, praise God.
00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:07.920
That's definitely a takeaway, as we would say.
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:08.639
Yeah, okay.
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:10.400
Let me ask you this about cutting the rope.
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:13.199
And I just got a few more questions for you, Patrick, and then I'll let you go.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:16.000
This has been a wonderful interview.
00:48:16.320 --> 00:48:21.039
Um, regarding cutting the rope and the courage that it takes to cut the rope, C.S.
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:29.280
Lewis says that most people have no idea what they're capable of doing, and most people never do it unless they absolutely have to.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:30.719
Do you agree with that?
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:32.320
Yeah, 100%.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:45.760
That and in ways that is what I'm trying to get at with this notion of resiliency of like we give ourselves glass ceilings in every which way we don't think we're strong, like a hundred percent.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.480
Um are you bold enough to test that?
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:52.159
Right.
00:48:53.039 --> 00:49:03.679
Because I think as a society, if people really did press in to Ephesians 2.10 in their life and do the thing that God put them here to do, I think this place would shine like a diamond.
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:04.000
Yeah.
00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:10.079
I mean, I think it would just be fantastic, but because we're maybe full of too much fear and embracing that instead.
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:11.519
Well yeah, totally.
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:14.320
I mean, way too much, and life is too short.
00:49:14.400 --> 00:49:23.679
We none of us know what's coming around the corner, and God did put us here for a reason, and kind of who cares how much it hurts me because it was never about me, anyways.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:25.519
It wasn't.
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:26.480
No, no, no.
00:49:27.039 --> 00:49:33.840
Um okay, what do you say to the guy who's needing to cut the rope?
00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:54.159
What do you say to what do you say to Patrick Sells, who's in not in New York, who's in LA, at the same time you're in New York, and he's killing it, and he's just printing money, but it's not his soul is dying or he can't take a breath.
00:49:54.719 --> 00:49:56.480
What do you tell that guy?
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:06.480
It's so easy to get caught up in the very temporary moment we live in, and right, like these things matter.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:09.920
I need to get this done, these relationships is money.
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:16.960
But if you have that, if you have that sense of nagging, that voice in your head saying, Do you should you cut the rope?
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:20.079
Like, that is your moment, I think, to hear God.
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:32.239
And it may, much like my story in a way of like I cut that rope thinking it was about a business thing, and I think there was all kinds of things in my life personally that God needed to teach me.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:43.760
And it really wasn't like, but you got to honor it and look, who knows on what's on the other side of it, it could be devastating.
00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:55.119
Maybe I don't think it's that you misheard God, I think it's that maybe God was doing something in your life or someone else's life that you just didn't understand or care to see.
00:50:55.599 --> 00:51:08.719
Um, but almost like you gotta be kind of reckless in the hey, if I hear it, I gotta respond and let go and trust.
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:15.360
And I think the temptation to want to have a plan before you cut the rope means you're not cutting the rope.
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:21.360
I think the temptation to wait till this moment in time means you're not really cutting the rope.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:29.920
I think the you know pride gets in the way of it, and I think if you're gonna do it, you gotta cut it.
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.000
You really gotta cut it.
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:32.719
That's right.
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:33.760
You gotta cut it.
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:39.599
You gotta be okay with getting knocked down, getting knocked back because don't you want to know what God was gonna do?
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:42.480
You operate in some interesting circles, Patrick.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:44.639
Are you mentoring people right now?
00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:49.599
No, um yes and no.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:52:02.880
I've got a younger brother by a decade that I I've been helping out over the last several months with a company he had started, um, and and more actively trying to help him and his br and his some of his employees.
00:52:03.199 --> 00:52:08.159
Uh, but I wouldn't say, you know, all that actively mentoring.
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:25.679
I think it really wasn't Jeff until the beginning of this year where I felt like, okay, like I had my head screwed back on enough and I was far enough from it all um to really be in a good spot.
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:27.039
Um, but so no.
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:33.039
And and probably you hear me humming and hawing because it's probably something I I I probably need to be doing.
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:37.599
Well, if it's a little crumb in the road that helps and adds to other crumbs, yeah.
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:40.239
Let me be let me be happy to put one out there.
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:48.960
But I uh and God's timing is always perfect for that kind of stuff, but you gotta you're a fountain of a lot of good stuff, Patrick.
00:52:49.039 --> 00:52:50.800
I think you got a lot of good stuff to share.
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:54.079
So um wow.
00:52:54.320 --> 00:53:13.039
Patrick Sells, it's great reuniting with you, and you are a man of great resilience and authenticity and uh intellect and success and all of that wonderful stuff, and somebody knows who knows what it's like to get knocked down and pick himself back up again, and a man of great courage.
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:15.360
Thank you so much for sharing with us today, Patrick.
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:16.239
Thanks, Jeff.
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:27.840
Thanks for uh having this conversation with people like myself and others and to help and you know kind of bring courage all more to the forefront of our minds so that we can all live more courageous lives.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:33.360
Thank you for joining us today on Courageous.
00:53:33.519 --> 00:53:41.760
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