00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Conversations. Now, this is not about me, but I did play against some really good footballers in my time. And, you know, when you talk the Robins and the Eberts and the Blights and Phil Carman and the like. But I played against West Adelaide one day. I played a little bit of footy. I was older. And this young fellow came and stood alongside me. And I thought, well, he's going to be pretty easy. Bruce Lindner. was my opponent on that day and I couldn't believe how explosive and how athletic and he just led me a merry dance all over Adelaide Oval. He joins us tonight because he's had some challenges in life which he's worked through courageously and he's put it down in a book which makes really interesting reading. He joins me tonight, Bruce Lindner, the Prez, how are you?
00:00:49
Speaker 2: Graham, pleasure to be here.
00:00:50
Speaker 1: I bet you can't even remember playing.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: No, I do remember that. In fact, I remember it quite clearly because in the first quarter, the ball was coming towards us and there was a whistle blown and the ball was going to be retrieved back. There was a free kick given. And you went out of your way to stand on my shoulders to take a specky while there was no play. And I remember to myself saying, this guy's giving me the willies. I'm going to, yeah.
00:01:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did.
00:01:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to do something about it. I remember the game. It was against South Adelaide.
00:01:24
Speaker 1: I remember you doing exactly the same thing and then I couldn't catch it. We'll go straight to it. You've had a health challenge, which amazingly you've put behind you. So can we go to that first? I mean, you've, We'll talk about your early days and your footy career and everything else in between. Kim's had a great career at West Adelaide, Geelong and the Crows. We'll get back to that, but tell us about your health.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: Okay, so after a reasonable New Year's Eve, I played golf the next day with a few of the Got cleaned up afterward, went to the toilet and went, oh, that's a funny color. That's not good. That's not normal. And I thought maybe there was some beetroot or maybe something, some coloring, but it wasn't the case. Anyway, so cut a long story short. Turns out that I had renal cell carcinoma, so cancer of the kidney. And it was basically the size of a tennis ball.
00:02:31
Speaker 1: Size of a tennis ball on your kidney? Yep. How big is a kidney?
00:02:35
Speaker 2: That wouldn't be a tennis ball. Nearly the size of a tennis ball. And the symptoms for kidney cancer are a lower sore back, basically. And so if you ask any middle-aged golfer, they'll go, yeah, I've got a lower sore back. So it was quite a shock. And then you go through the.
00:02:55
Speaker 1: So there was blood in your urine. Yep. Okay. Which is quite distinctive. Yep. Anyone's been whacked in the kidneys?
00:03:01
Speaker 2: And so I did what all men do and forgot about it, right? So I tried to forget about it.
00:03:07
Speaker 1: Did it clear up?
00:03:08
Speaker 2: Well, it cleared up a little bit and I woke up in the morning. I told my wife, Julie, and in the morning I went for the obligatory toilet training and sure enough, it was back. The colour was back. And so I yelled to Julie to come and have a look and she's a bit more pragmatic than me and she said, no, we're going to the doctor. So go and get some blood tests, have a scan, and then we're all one phone call away. And basically I got a phone call and the message was, please ring Dr. So-and-so back. And I thought, this can't be good. I've never had a message from a doctor before. I've never had a doctor ring me. And sure enough, he says, I'm sorry, you've got cancer.
00:03:51
Speaker 1: And they can tell that just by taking a sample from you. Was it a biopsy?
00:03:57
Speaker 2: No, no. So the blood test gives an indication, but then they do a CT scan. And then after that, you have to go in and have another CT scan to see if the cancer has gone to other parts of your body. So to your lung and to your bones and stuff like that. Which fortunately, I mean, I had a nodule on my lung and I had some spots on the liver and some other spots on my lungs. And so.
00:04:25
Speaker 2: The prognosis at that stage didn't look great. So... When you say it didn't look great, what did they say? Well, if you go, not the worst thing, but also the best thing, you go to Dr. Google and you go, what's the likely outcome? And if it metastasizes, which it did later on, basically you've got one and a half to two out of ten living chances of five years.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: So you've done this, you've looked at... So what's going through your mind?
00:04:56
Speaker 2: So at that stage, I'm going, well, you do the five stages of grief, you know, denial, and then why me? And then my doctors ring me going, look, I'm really sorry to tell you as well, I can't find someone that can operate on it because it's January, you know, most of the specialists go away on holidays. So I leave it with me and I spoke with my My wife, I'm going, what do we do? Who do we know? So I called a fellow golfing doctor and he said, look, I'm sorry, I can't help you. That's not my field and I don't know anyone in that field. And then luckily enough, my daughter Sophie was best friends with a girl called Liv at school. And Liv's mum and dad had a holiday house down where I've got a house down at Normanville. So our paths crossed quite a bit. Um, and in particular when Liv had come over and Sophie had come over and so, and I hate asking for anything. I just hate it. But I rang, well, I actually had a Julie to ring, um, Liv's dad, Cam, who's a cardiologist and said, do you know anyone?
00:06:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker 2: And then by the grace of God, I get a phone call 20 minutes later saying that I've got an appointment with a urologist, one of the head guys at Flinders University.
00:06:20
Speaker 1: So it's not what you know, too, you know, obviously.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: Pretty much, yeah.
00:06:26
Speaker 1: And this guy rang you back?
00:06:28
Speaker 2: So his rooms rang me and said, you're in on Monday at 10.30. So I went there and Michael, who was the head of urology unit at Flinders Medical Centre, obviously doing a favour for me. I mean, I I feel for those people that can't get in, you know, and I've, and this is a true story. A year earlier, I'd said to Julie, look, we're all fit and healthy. Let's, why do we need this private hospital stuff? But, um, anyway, so.
00:07:01
Speaker 1: Did you, did you lapse?
00:07:03
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. Thank God.
00:07:05
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:07:05
Speaker 2: Because kidney, well, you know, cancer, the immunotherapy treatment and everything else, that's between 600 to a million dollars, depending on. how far you go down the path.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Amazing.
00:07:17
Speaker 2: So, you know, most of that's covered by a private hospital, but there's some outstandings along the way.
00:07:22
Speaker 1: So you got, they, he got you into, obviously to, to retail and went, how soon before you then operated?
00:07:28
Speaker 2: So, uh, and Michael obviously was fitting me in because, and he was the loveliest guy. And he said, look, that thing has to come out. And I've got one spare spot on my operating roster, uh, in 10 days time. And you've just taken it. So, I also had to then go and have a cystoscopy in three days' time, and that's where they have to put a camera up, yeah. You know that?
00:07:52
Speaker 1: Urethra, yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker 2: And because I had some inflammation in some other tubes as well, and that may be a sign of cancer. And so they also took a biopsy at the same time, so did that. So I get diagnosed. Three days later, well, two days later, basically, I have a medical appointment. Three days later, I have a cystoscopy. 10 days later, I have my kidney out.
00:08:17
Speaker 1: And they took the kidney out?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the nephrectomy, yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker 1: Did that solve the issue?
00:08:22
Speaker 2: Well, in some cases it does, but this is where the book came in because I was in the critical care unit lying there and I've got machines with leads and things going beep and things compressing my calves and I'm going, you know what, if this goes south, my daughter doesn't know anything about me. And so I thought, well.
00:08:45
Speaker 1: We hadn't mentioned the book.
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Speaker 2: No.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: So you've recorded all of this in a book. I like the original title, The Secrets of a Good Parker, but I think you've changed the name of it, haven't you?
00:08:55
Speaker 2: Well, it's had a few alliterations, and it's just hard to come up with what suits all. We'll talk about the book.
00:09:03
Speaker 1: We'll talk about your recovery after the break. Bruce Lindner, the Prez, is my guest, folks, back shortly. My guest on Conversations, if you've just tuned in, it's Bruce Lindner. Yes, the Bruce Lindner, West Adelaide, Geelong Crows star, State of Origin star. But it's a graphic story where this, what he thought was a healthy man, good golfer, in the prime of his life, realised he's passing blood as he's urinating, diagnosed with a cancerous tumour on his kidney and was able to get it removed. But tell us about that. You know, the rehabilitation. You've been able to get an express operation, which is fair enough. And when you wake up, you're wanting to know the result, aren't you?
00:09:50
Speaker 2: Well, no doubt.
00:09:50
Speaker 1: Go through that process with us.
00:09:53
Speaker 2: So the express operation was knowing some people and being lucky enough that they were were still working at the time. So totally, unbelievably grateful for that because the stress is on you when it happens. You look and you go, well, if it was normal, by the time I get in to see another specialist, do more tests, have more x-rays, I'm going, this is another 12 to 16 weeks before this thing's out of you. And I'm going, that can't be good.
00:10:22
Speaker 1: And that could spread.
00:10:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm looking at any positive I can look at and I'm going, wow, this is a bit serendipitous in terms of everything falling into place. This is a positive thing for me. So that was there. It's a shock to the system because, I mean, I was early 60s, but mentally, like most people, you know, I don't know what age you think you are.
00:10:45
Speaker 1: I'm fine until I look at the actual numbers.
00:10:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. And I thought I was, you know, I felt like I was mid-30s, right? That's what I felt like. But suddenly you have this realization that you go, wow, I've actually, I'm on the back nine of golf. In fact, I'm on the back six holes of the golf course. But I still think I've got lots of time. But it is soul-destroying in the sense of why me, You know.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: Were you able to calm that, I don't want to use the word panic, but I guess there's a certain amount of panic about it or concern, deep concern. Were you able to control that by any process?
00:11:29
Speaker 2: Just through trying to be mentally strong. I pushed it as far back as I could. My wife was amazingly stoic in this whole situation. And so it was a case of, like most things, all right, what's the next stage of going forward? So you make processes of going forward. So after the operation, then you go, okay, rehabilitation. What do I need to do?
00:11:56
Speaker 1: So what's the doctor's verdict after the operation?
00:11:59
Speaker 2: You know, you wake up. Okay, so I wake up and he goes, we think we've got it out. It's stage four cancer.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Has it gone anywhere else? Do you ask that?
00:12:09
Speaker 2: Not at that stage. He says, I don't think it's anywhere else because there was a couple of the tubes that were inflamed and, um, he goes, they didn't seem to be cancerous. So we think we've got it all. So like most things.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: So you lost a kidney.
00:12:24
Speaker 2: Keep your fingers crossed, lost a kidney. You do the rehabilitation, um, you know, go for a walk a couple of days later. And then, then my, um, my methodology was wake up, do a little bit of, uh, cycling, indoor cycling, few pushups, sit ups, that sort of stuff.
00:12:41
Speaker 1: Mm.
00:12:42
Speaker 2: Just gentle. That takes half an hour.
00:12:44
Speaker 1: And then... Push-ups with a big scar on your back.
00:12:47
Speaker 2: Where do they operate from?
00:12:49
Speaker 1: All right.
00:12:50
Speaker 2: So the good news was he said, look, I don't know if the tubes, it's inflamed, but I don't know if it's cancerous. If it's cancerous, I'm going to have to operate and take, you know, basically open you right up, take all your stomach out, and then go from there. If it's not, then what we'll do is keyhole surgery. We'll still have to... make a scar in you to take out the cancer in the kidney, but it'll be a lot easier and less invasive. So that's what happened.
00:13:19
Speaker 1: So how long ago was this?
00:13:20
Speaker 2: 18, just over 18 months ago. And you're fully fit? Well, so then you go through the process. So I started a while ago, because I used to work a bit with Channel 7, and what had happened is I went to build a house in Unley, where I currently live, and I thought what I'll do is I'll take... Um, like videos of building a house and try and put it together as a, as a TV show. Anyway, I got lazy and I didn't do it, but I should have, because it took me seven years to build a house. You know, I had the council changing zoning laws on me, the whole box and dice, and it would have, it would have been a great, so I was disappointed I didn't do it. So when this happened, I said, you know what? Because when I was in the bed and, uh, it was sort of a, basically it's a sort of legacy stroke love letter to my daughter in terms of the book.
00:14:14
Speaker 1: You talk about it. You start writing the book on your phone.
00:14:16
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
00:14:17
Speaker 1: You think, well, I'm writing a book so my daughter knows my life.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and where she's from.
00:14:24
Speaker 1: So then when you wake up and come back to reality, when you look at what you've written.
00:14:28
Speaker 2: So a couple of funny things happen. One is my anaesthetist for the operation, he said, how did you find out? And I told him, he said, look, I can empathize exactly what you're going through. I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, I had kidney cancer 10 years ago and I had a kidney out. And I said, well, how did you find it? He said, well, I had a gallbladder, which had some sludge in it. So I went to get it operated on and they did. And they took the gallbladder out and stuff like that. Went home for recuperation. Anyway, the next day, my daughter comes running in, dad, dad, dad, you've got to grab your medical stuff. You've got to come quick. There's a, car outside. It was a ute upturned, had an accident. I'll go in it. And so he crawled in through the space and IV'd him and kept him stable and all that sort of stuff. Next day he wakes up and he's brutally sore on his left hand side. Oh, I've done something with the stitches and that. So he brings his doctor and doctor says, look, CT scan straight away. Goes in, has the CT scan and they go, it's not your gallbladder, you've got kidney cancer. So that was 10 years And he said, look, I'm here, fit and healthy. And he said, I'm going to give you the best drugs. You'll be fine. We'll see you when you come out of this.
00:15:40
Speaker 1: Right.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: So sure enough. And I actually liked that feeling when you're going into an operation and you know, that, that blackness that suddenly happens, you know, like it's like a light switch.
00:15:50
Speaker 1: It goes off. You lost me there.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: And then, and then, you know, when you come to, you suddenly awake and, um.
00:16:00
Speaker 1: Anyway, so you started writing on your phone to your daughter.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was right in the sense that the drugs were fantastic. So I looked at the clock, and it was quarter past eight, and I was the last person getting operated. It was quarter past eight, and I'm going, okay. So I picked it up. Anyway, at about 5.29 in the morning, I've gone, I should stop doing this because there'll be a nurse coming to check on me. So you're still writing. So I'm still writing, right? Yeah. So sure enough, about seven o'clock, I get woken up. I pick up my phone because I think I've written a Pulitzer Prize here. This is going to be great. I pick it up and it's absolutely gobbledygook. I could hardly make out the thread of what I was trying to say. And so the drugs were great for masking pain and creativity, but for actually being able to use your vocabulary and stuff like that, it was impossible. And So I just sat there and I go, so I just had to totally rewrite it. So those eight hours were just totally wasted.
00:17:01
Speaker 1: So the bottom line is, as we get to the halfway mark, is you fully recovered?
00:17:07
Speaker 2: No. So that's the thing. So do the rehab. What do you do for the rest of your day? So I just sat down on the lounge and just started writing. And so one day I might write an hour, another day I might write five hours, whatever it was. And this is a true story. in about five months into the recovery. And I'm, well, I named the chapter, um, overconfidence. Cause I'm saying, you know, I'm drinking again. I'm enjoying myself. Am I getting too overconfident? And this was, I finished writing that chapter at one 30 in the morning. And I woke up at nine o'clock the next day, went to the toilet and I was bleeding blood again.
00:17:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker 2: And so, Then you go in and, to cut a long story short, it metastasized into my bladder.
00:17:59
Speaker 1: So how was that fixed?
00:18:02
Speaker 2: So once it metastasizes, your, what they call OS, which is overall survival, goes down big time. So to fix that, back to my urologist, go in basically emergency department and another cystoscopy, but this time it's called a TURB, T-U-R-B-T. And they go in, have a look around your bladder, and then I have like an electric wire or something, and they burn the, I think they burn the tumor off. And then I need to have cancer treatment. So the other one is operational, takes the cancer out, hopefully it's all gone. If it comes back, right, you need cancer treatment.
00:18:44
Speaker 1: So there's radiation?
00:18:45
Speaker 2: So, well, there's only.
00:18:48
Speaker 1: Chemotherapy?
00:18:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, chemotherapy doesn't work for kidney cancer. Basically, I had immunotherapy, which most people think, well, I thought immunotherapy was like slapping two fishes together sort of thing. But it's evolved quite well over the last few years.
00:19:06
Speaker 1: As we go to the break, are you cured?
00:19:09
Speaker 2: With kidney cancer, you're never cured. But what happens, and that's part of the book, is I write about my story, but then I write about all the the doctor's visits and all the scans and you go from one scan to the other. They call it scansiety. So what happens is every three months you have to go and have a scan and then you go and see your.
00:19:30
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break, but we're going to go, we're going to go back to your beginnings and talk about some positive stuff. Well, come on. I'm hoping it's got a happy ending. I think it does have a happy ending, but let's, go back to the beginning after the break. Bruce Linder is my guest, folks, back shortly. If you've just joined us on Conversations, folks, we're chatting with Bruce Linder, the Bruce Linder, the Prez. It's a graphic story about him being diagnosed with kidney cancer, the operation, and then further diagnosed with bladder cancer. But we're going to park that for a while because we'll come back to it. He's recorded all this in a book, which he ostensibly wrote for his daughter. But I think it makes great reading for the wider population, particularly if you love your footy as well. Can we go back to the start? Because I got wrapped up in your early days. And the thing that concerned me maybe or, you know, was moving was the relationship with your parents. Didn't seem to be that great.
00:20:33
Speaker 2: No, well, I guess. You could say it was dysfunctional.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: Why? On whose part?
00:20:39
Speaker 2: Well, all our parts, I suppose. I was an independent kid that just loved football and just wanted to be involved in football and play football. My mum and dad had stresses of their own. My dad had an interesting life in terms of he was the oldest of five siblings, of which two others were Don Lindner, who won a McGarry medal, and Hank Lindner, who... whose name was Theo, but also played state football. Yeah.
00:21:09
Speaker 1: North Adelaide champion.
00:21:10
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And Hank was described as raw and strong and Don athletic and, you know, could take a great mark. And my father, Keith, was older than, he was the oldest. He was bigger than Don and stronger than Hank. And in today's parlance would be a number one draft pick. I mean, I don't say that easily. But with my experience, I have an understanding of what skill sets and what traits are needed. And I think at 17 years of age, he was captain of Remarque B grade, which was a, you know, this back in those days that men played.
00:21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:51
Speaker 2: So he was a serious footballer. And then he had his sliding doors moment where he suffered polio.
00:21:57
Speaker 1: Oh no.
00:21:58
Speaker 2: And so he was in the Hillcrest Infectious Diseases Ward for two years. My grandfather of Germanic background, I'm told, never visited him in those two years. And my dad was like a Vietnam veteran or a war veteran who never spoke about the war. He never spoke about his upbringing or his polio.
00:22:24
Speaker 1: So he didn't go to war, but he was impacted.
00:22:27
Speaker 2: So he lost the use of his legs primarily. He was in a wheelchair when he came out and was in braces or something for the leg. But his ligaments and muscles had all withered. But he must have had one of the strongest mental capacities to absorb pain because he taught himself to walk again. And he must have had a competitive drive because he ended up playing over 200 state games of bowls. He was, he was a reserve for the Commonwealth games in 1982. So a successful sporting career with limited. And your mum was a good golfer? Mum won the Riverland golf championship. And I believe she was a very good athletic.
00:23:09
Speaker 1: But you know, as I read, and as you're talking there, there's, there's no love or affection evidence. It was a hard up, hard rule upbringing as you describe it, you know, Walking barefoot, snakes, catching fish, catching rabbits, outdoor toilet.
00:23:26
Speaker 2: It was a Tom Sawyer upbringing. And I enjoyed it. I knew no different.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: So how did West Adelaide come along? Was that like an escape for you?
00:23:36
Speaker 2: West Adelaide came along. I remember getting a letter from North Adelaide when I was 12 years of age. And you had the North Adelaide rooster emblem in the corner. And I thought, wow, how good am I?
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Or the name, Linda.
00:23:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they asked me to sign, and Dad said, no, no, let's just, it's the first time they've contacted you, let's just see what happens. And anyway, West Adelaide was zoned for that area, and I remember when I was 16, I came down and played in a trial game, and they said, yeah, we want you down, and I said, well, I'm happy to come down, but I need to get a job, and they couldn't find me one, so I went back, and then came again when I was 17, another trial game, and they said, yeah, we can find you a job.
00:24:16
Speaker 1: So how were you when you played your first game?
00:24:19
Speaker 2: I actually played my first, if you call it a league game, against South Melbourne. I stood Stephen Ackerley in the back pocket. He was back pocket.
00:24:27
Speaker 1: Like a pre-season.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of those escort cup pre-season games. And that was my first game in 79. So I think I was 18 years of age. But my upbringing here, I wasn't disciplined to say the least. So it wasn't until Curls came along that I thought, you know what? I've been treading water for too long. I think I need to try.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: You won the reserves McGarry medal. What do you laugh at that?
00:24:54
Speaker 2: I played 11 games and I was dragged like six of them. And the funny thing about that is that Tony Simons played 12 games and I beat him by a point. And I didn't know this until I was taking him to a, with my work, I take, good accounts to wine and food festivals. And there was a, down at Panola Cup. I was taking him down there and he said to me, you know, my mum doesn't like you. And I said, what are you talking about? I told her I was going to Panola with you. And she said, why are you going with him? He beat you in the McGarry medal by that one vote. So, you know, they're like elephants, parents. They remember all that stuff.
00:25:36
Speaker 1: So they do.
00:25:37
Speaker 2: So 83. So that was in 81. And then 83 was the reckoning in terms of, I decided to do a full pre-season. I followed Larry Watson, who was Tim Watson's, and he was a fitness freak. And I thought, I'm going to do, I gave up smoking, sort of gave up drinking as well. I'm going to do whatever he does. And it was a hard slog, but the rewards were, you know, fantastic.
00:26:01
Speaker 1: You won the premiership.
00:26:02
Speaker 2: We won the premiership.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: Coase said, and I don't know whether we'd believe him or not, he said it was the best team he coached. Now, the 73 team at Grenoble were quite offended by that.
00:26:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. He has said that a few times. And he said a couple of nice things about me, which I don't know whether he was blowing me up, but he said that I should have won the McGarry Medal in 83 and that I was the.
00:26:25
Speaker 1: Well, Michael Aish was the red hot.
00:26:26
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Tony Antropos ended up winning.
00:26:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but Michael Aish was the favourite and Stephen Kernaghan polled the most votes but was ineligible. Tony Antropos won it.
00:26:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. Where did you come from? Well, as I say, key position players don't really get too many votes.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: So then, Joe, you moved to Geelong?
00:26:47
Speaker 2: I signed with Geelong. Look, all I wanted to do, I wanted to stay at West Adelaide, and all I wanted to do was get some money and buy a car. So I signed what in those days was called a Form 4, which meant they'll give you money as long as when you go, if you go to Victoria, you play for that club. So I did that. I had a number of clubs. I was lucky enough. So 83 had a good state of origin. And so there was a few AFL, VFL clubs knocking. Signed with Geelong and I thought, oh, that's it. And then I said to Doug, if we ever go over Doug Thomas, if we ever go over who's the best football manager of all, when he mentioned a guy called John Shard. And John did Phil Malen, Bazzasto, Cotoggio, like a heap. And he basically... And he just did it as a hobby. He didn't do it to make money or anything. He just loved being involved in the football.
00:27:36
Speaker 1: So you signed with Geelong. You moved to Geelong. It seemed a bit up and down until last year you won the leading goalkeeper. Give us a snapshot of your time at Geelong.
00:27:48
Speaker 2: Okay, so my time at Geelong was difficult. I broke my ankle. I ripped my ankle out of its mortars and had a spiral fracture of the tibia and tore all the ligaments in the second game. against South Adelaide again, at Richmond Oval. And so I went over Geelong the following year, still in a plaster, ended up getting the plaster cut off, went to try and do training, and I garnered the nickname Poppy, and there was a trotter called Popular Arm, because I had a gait that was quite strange. We didn't find out until... Two years later, I had a knee reconstruction. I played the first six games, had a knee reconstruction. Then a year later, I had my ankle operated on again, and they found a piece of bone from the ankle joint the size of your thumbnail between the joints. So I had no dorsiflexion. So in 87, all of a sudden, I could move my ankle up and down like it should be, and I was like a... I was like a new recruit. And so that's hence why 87 was a pretty good year for me.
00:28:50
Speaker 1: We need to take a break. Bruce Lindner is my guest, folks. There's so much to talk about. We're going to have to rush through it. I can see that. They get most of it in. We're talking ostensibly about his new book, which I thought was called The Secrets of a Good Parker, but it's got a new title, Bruce. Has it not?
00:29:08
Speaker 2: It has. It's called Time On In The Last.
00:29:10
Speaker 1: It's about his health battle, and it's quite inspiring. Back after the break, folks. Bruce Linda is with me in the studio, folks. It's good to have him in the studio. Often we're doing these interviews by Zoom or Gup, but Bruce has come in and he's had health battles, which hopefully are in remission. Cancer of the kidney, which is removed. Cancer of the bladder, which probably needs reviewing and regular assessment. But we're talking about his footy career now. He started in the Riverland. obviously a young prodigy, moved to West Adelaide, had a couple of great years there. Were you drafted or did you sign with Geelong?
00:29:48
Speaker 2: I signed with Geelong.
00:29:48
Speaker 1: So you go to Geelong, you shake off the effects of an ankle injury. Tell us about Geelong.
00:29:56
Speaker 2: Well, I... Geelong was hard because it wasn't a draft. They'd signed me and they'd also, it was open slather in terms of recruitment in the then VFL because there was no salary cap per se at that stage. So Geelong had gone through some troubling times and were back in a situation where they wanted to recruit someone. So as I understood, Later down the track, the choice was between Brad Hardy and myself. So, you know, one goes on to win a Brownlow medal.
00:30:30
Speaker 1: One was a back pocket player, the other was a flamboyant forward.
00:30:34
Speaker 2: And the other, me, gave minimal return because of injury. And so I was.
00:30:40
Speaker 1: You did have a good year, though.
00:30:42
Speaker 2: So 87 was a good year. That was when I finally was fit and able to play. And a number of things fell into place. It was the end of my contract. Actually... I signed a two-year contract and my manager, John Shard, also inserted a clause that was the player's option to take it for another year. The player's option? Never heard of, basically, but this is what happened. And so I went into the general manager, Ken Gannon, after my two years and he said, we need to talk about your contract. I said, yes, I just want to inform you I'm taking up the player's option. And he said, what player's option? I said, this is the player's option. So I was able to have a good year. And then I signed a fully guaranteed five-year contract. It was the last of its time before the standard AFL contracts came in. And that was because I was being wooed by Brisbane Bears, as was Gary Ablett, and one of the officials at Geelong was in a bit of trouble for larceny, so they wanted some good news on the paper, basically. So I signed with a minute and a half to go before time ran out.
00:31:49
Speaker 1: So how did you end up with the Crows then?
00:31:51
Speaker 2: So what happened was after 1990, I was called, I was once told if you ever get invited to Malcolm Blight's office in Melbourne, be prepared. So I packed myself, this is a true story, I packed myself a recorder in my suit pocket, went up and saw him. He said, you know, initially it was all nice and cordial and, you know, I think it's time you moved on.
00:32:20
Speaker 1: And I went.
00:32:22
Speaker 2: No, I'm not moving on, Graeme. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, well, I'm not moving on. I've got a guaranteed contract. He said, I'll make you run marathons at training. I said, well, one of the clauses in my contract is that I have to obey all fair and reasonable directions from club officials. And I reckon I could go to court and argue that's not a fair and reasonable direction. So that put up, you can just imagine how Malcolm pushed back to that. So... But suddenly I had all these other options. Cut to the chase. What happened?
00:32:58
Speaker 1: Did you play again?
00:32:59
Speaker 2: No, no. So I fast-tracked the decision to come to Adelaide Crows.
00:33:04
Speaker 1: And that should have had a happy ending because your win-loss ratio with the Crows would be the best of any player who's played for them, I reckon. And you didn't play a lot of games, but I reckon with an.
00:33:17
Speaker 2: 80%, Yeah, at the time, it was reasonable. Maybe I picked the right games to play.
00:33:22
Speaker 1: Well, maybe you did, but still, there was no doubt you were important to us. And certainly in that first game, which I think the players in that first game need to be lionized, need to be their reputations enhanced. And remember, put it that way. It came to an end with a motorcycle accident. Now, you tried to talk your way out of that, didn't you?
00:33:47
Speaker 2: Well, it was difficult. I ended up putting a Ducati into a tree at about 110 kilometers. And normally you don't walk away from that. And so this was one of the things that when I look back in terms of the cancer, I go, you know, you've probably got 30 bonus years than what you should have had. So I was able to rationalize it a bit then. And I look back at that event and go, wow.
00:34:13
Speaker 1: You told me in confidence what had happened. I don't think you told Bill Sanders what had happened.
00:34:17
Speaker 2: No, because it was seen as a bit irresponsible when I was thinking about my contract at the time. Oh, you reckon? Well, hang on, don't you start, because you were in the hospital and said, you know, I can relate with that, Bruce. I went up on this hang glider before the finals and nearly killed myself. So I think you could empathise a little bit with me at the time.
00:34:38
Speaker 1: I didn't think I told you that.
00:34:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did.
00:34:41
Speaker 1: That was the craziest thing ever. So it came to an end and did you, you were going to be Tony Modra's manager.
00:34:49
Speaker 2: No, that was, I don't know who started that. So Tony worked with us sometimes. I worked for an automotive glass company where Rowie is involved now.
00:34:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:59
Speaker 2: And so I'd retired and I got into, I was put in the bad category at the Adelaide Crows because I was having lunch with the owners and Mods rang and said, where are you? And I said, oh, I'm here. And he said, oh, can I join you for lunch? So he joined us for lunch. And I said, you've got training after this. And he said, oh, I've had a gutful. I don't want to go.
00:35:21
Speaker 1: He had had a gutful.
00:35:22
Speaker 2: That was the start of 1994, wasn't it? Yeah, and I said, mate, it's up to you. But he said, nah, that's it. And he didn't go back to training that week. And I think maybe yourself or whoever.
00:35:33
Speaker 1: Bill and I went around the store room the next day and he said, I've finished. I've finished. And we said, look. because he missed training. And I said, well, just come, have a massage, do all that. We won't make you train. See how you feel. And slowly he came round. And as you've, I think, written in the book, we played Carlton the first game of the year and he kicked 13 or 14. It was on Steven Silvani too. So then he was back in the fold. But we always blame you for that.
00:36:02
Speaker 2: I know. But I was never his manager and I took the blame. Anyway.
00:36:07
Speaker 1: So let's wrap up the book. The book is, it's a journey through your life. And it's, I suppose, written from the point of view that this is what you want your daughter to know. But the rest of us, without intruding, finding it very interesting as well.
00:36:24
Speaker 2: It morphed over time though. So it started off as a love letter to my daughter. And then it was about recognition of friendship. It was about the journey I was on. But, It was also, I'm aware that I'm lucky. One of the things about the cancer is it's, you know, there's people far worse off than you. And, you know, I got that understanding. So it was, and part of that was the treatment, going through the processes, people will get a feel of what it's like. But I also, in the dark hour, I thought, What can I do that's a positive? What positive can possibly come out of this? And at that stage, I've gone, you know what? Maybe I can start raising some money for cancer research.
00:37:13
Speaker 1: And there's a QR code in the book which people can.
00:37:17
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to give the hook away, but there's scans and there's scans and there's scans and there's a, you know, is he going to die now? Is he going to live? Go to the QR code and phone out. Well, hey, spoiler alert, I'm here.
00:37:31
Speaker 1: There it is. To change the subject completely, where did you get the nickname The Prez from?
00:37:38
Speaker 2: How did that happen? Look, that was Doug.
00:37:42
Speaker 1: Doug Thomas.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Doug Thomas, yeah. I was in his office in terms of looking at a contract. I was all of 17 years of age. I don't know what the contract would actually be legally worth, being 17 years of age. And I was negotiating with him and the phone rang and his secretary said, It's Bob Lee out the front. He wants to see you. And Bob Lee was the president of the club. And Doug said, righto, Bruce, you have to go. I said, no, Doug, I'm not going. I'm not going until this is finished, until this is done. And he said, who do you think you are, the bloody president? I said, well, if I need to be, I am.
00:38:19
Speaker 1: How did you have such confidence at such.
00:38:22
Speaker 2: A young age? I'm not sure. It was a cross between confidence and ignorance, to be perfectly honest. And as I say in the book, I I always have a 75% half full approach to life and people remember you for your successes rather than for your losses. And so I always try something, even if it's, you know, even if the odds aren't stacked up exactly right.
00:38:51
Speaker 1: Do you watch footy today? Do you watch the footy?
00:38:53
Speaker 2: I do. I'm not totally invested in it though. It's, it's a new ball game.
00:38:58
Speaker 1: It is a new ball game, but do you see any, do you see any of yourself, any of those players? See, today you would, you played 10 and a half forward in my day, but today you'd be that explosive midfielder, I think, that explosive mid, you know, the Marcus Bontempelli, even though you're, right.
00:39:14
Speaker 2: I can't believe the size of these guys. I mean, I was, I always said I was six foot, but I was actually five, 11 and three quarters, only because if I said I was six foot, then perhaps, you know, football clubs might recruit me because I'm a six footer, but, You know, to play center, I fought at West Adelaide at five, 11 and three quarters. Well, you wouldn't be able to.
00:39:33
Speaker 1: You played tour. We're coming to the end. You've had your health battles. You were told once by an African witch doctor that you would die in your 95th year. Do you believe him?
00:39:46
Speaker 2: He did all the things that where you're from, all that. And he said to me, have you got any questions you'd like to ask? And I said, when will I die? And he said, you will die in your 95th year and it's still a possibility.
00:40:01
Speaker 1: Well, let's hope so.
00:40:02
Speaker 2: I hope so.
00:40:02
Speaker 1: Mate, thanks for coming in. Good luck with the book. People can buy it.
00:40:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you go to www.timeoninthelast.com, You can pre-order it or you can buy it there or all good bookshops.
00:40:16
Speaker 1: Time On In The Last by Bruce Lindner. The Prez. Thanks so much for coming in.
00:40:21
Speaker 2: Graham, it's been a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
00:40:23
Speaker 1: Good luck, mate.
00:40:23
Speaker 2: Thanks.
00:40:24
Speaker 1: Thanks, folks, for joining us.
Speaker 1: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Conversations. Now, this is not about me, but I did play against some really good footballers in my time. And, you know, when you talk the Robins and the Eberts and the Blights and Phil Carman and the like. But I played against West Adelaide one day. I played a little bit of footy. I was older. And this young fellow came and stood alongside me. And I thought, well, he's going to be pretty easy. Bruce Lindner. was my opponent on that day and I couldn't believe how explosive and how athletic and he just led me a merry dance all over Adelaide Oval. He joins us tonight because he's had some challenges in life which he's worked through courageously and he's put it down in a book which makes really interesting reading. He joins me tonight, Bruce Lindner, the Prez, how are you?
00:00:49
Speaker 2: Graham, pleasure to be here.
00:00:50
Speaker 1: I bet you can't even remember playing.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: No, I do remember that. In fact, I remember it quite clearly because in the first quarter, the ball was coming towards us and there was a whistle blown and the ball was going to be retrieved back. There was a free kick given. And you went out of your way to stand on my shoulders to take a specky while there was no play. And I remember to myself saying, this guy's giving me the willies. I'm going to, yeah.
00:01:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, you did.
00:01:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to do something about it. I remember the game. It was against South Adelaide.
00:01:24
Speaker 1: I remember you doing exactly the same thing and then I couldn't catch it. We'll go straight to it. You've had a health challenge, which amazingly you've put behind you. So can we go to that first? I mean, you've, We'll talk about your early days and your footy career and everything else in between. Kim's had a great career at West Adelaide, Geelong and the Crows. We'll get back to that, but tell us about your health.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: Okay, so after a reasonable New Year's Eve, I played golf the next day with a few of the Got cleaned up afterward, went to the toilet and went, oh, that's a funny color. That's not good. That's not normal. And I thought maybe there was some beetroot or maybe something, some coloring, but it wasn't the case. Anyway, so cut a long story short. Turns out that I had renal cell carcinoma, so cancer of the kidney. And it was basically the size of a tennis ball.
00:02:31
Speaker 1: Size of a tennis ball on your kidney? Yep. How big is a kidney?
00:02:35
Speaker 2: That wouldn't be a tennis ball. Nearly the size of a tennis ball. And the symptoms for kidney cancer are a lower sore back, basically. And so if you ask any middle-aged golfer, they'll go, yeah, I've got a lower sore back. So it was quite a shock. And then you go through the.
00:02:55
Speaker 1: So there was blood in your urine. Yep. Okay. Which is quite distinctive. Yep. Anyone's been whacked in the kidneys?
00:03:01
Speaker 2: And so I did what all men do and forgot about it, right? So I tried to forget about it.
00:03:07
Speaker 1: Did it clear up?
00:03:08
Speaker 2: Well, it cleared up a little bit and I woke up in the morning. I told my wife, Julie, and in the morning I went for the obligatory toilet training and sure enough, it was back. The colour was back. And so I yelled to Julie to come and have a look and she's a bit more pragmatic than me and she said, no, we're going to the doctor. So go and get some blood tests, have a scan, and then we're all one phone call away. And basically I got a phone call and the message was, please ring Dr. So-and-so back. And I thought, this can't be good. I've never had a message from a doctor before. I've never had a doctor ring me. And sure enough, he says, I'm sorry, you've got cancer.
00:03:51
Speaker 1: And they can tell that just by taking a sample from you. Was it a biopsy?
00:03:57
Speaker 2: No, no. So the blood test gives an indication, but then they do a CT scan. And then after that, you have to go in and have another CT scan to see if the cancer has gone to other parts of your body. So to your lung and to your bones and stuff like that. Which fortunately, I mean, I had a nodule on my lung and I had some spots on the liver and some other spots on my lungs. And so.
00:04:25
Speaker 2: The prognosis at that stage didn't look great. So... When you say it didn't look great, what did they say? Well, if you go, not the worst thing, but also the best thing, you go to Dr. Google and you go, what's the likely outcome? And if it metastasizes, which it did later on, basically you've got one and a half to two out of ten living chances of five years.
00:04:52
Speaker 1: So you've done this, you've looked at... So what's going through your mind?
00:04:56
Speaker 2: So at that stage, I'm going, well, you do the five stages of grief, you know, denial, and then why me? And then my doctors ring me going, look, I'm really sorry to tell you as well, I can't find someone that can operate on it because it's January, you know, most of the specialists go away on holidays. So I leave it with me and I spoke with my My wife, I'm going, what do we do? Who do we know? So I called a fellow golfing doctor and he said, look, I'm sorry, I can't help you. That's not my field and I don't know anyone in that field. And then luckily enough, my daughter Sophie was best friends with a girl called Liv at school. And Liv's mum and dad had a holiday house down where I've got a house down at Normanville. So our paths crossed quite a bit. Um, and in particular when Liv had come over and Sophie had come over and so, and I hate asking for anything. I just hate it. But I rang, well, I actually had a Julie to ring, um, Liv's dad, Cam, who's a cardiologist and said, do you know anyone?
00:06:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:06:09
Speaker 2: And then by the grace of God, I get a phone call 20 minutes later saying that I've got an appointment with a urologist, one of the head guys at Flinders University.
00:06:20
Speaker 1: So it's not what you know, too, you know, obviously.
00:06:24
Speaker 2: Pretty much, yeah.
00:06:26
Speaker 1: And this guy rang you back?
00:06:28
Speaker 2: So his rooms rang me and said, you're in on Monday at 10.30. So I went there and Michael, who was the head of urology unit at Flinders Medical Centre, obviously doing a favour for me. I mean, I I feel for those people that can't get in, you know, and I've, and this is a true story. A year earlier, I'd said to Julie, look, we're all fit and healthy. Let's, why do we need this private hospital stuff? But, um, anyway, so.
00:07:01
Speaker 1: Did you, did you lapse?
00:07:03
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. Thank God.
00:07:05
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:07:05
Speaker 2: Because kidney, well, you know, cancer, the immunotherapy treatment and everything else, that's between 600 to a million dollars, depending on. how far you go down the path.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Amazing.
00:07:17
Speaker 2: So, you know, most of that's covered by a private hospital, but there's some outstandings along the way.
00:07:22
Speaker 1: So you got, they, he got you into, obviously to, to retail and went, how soon before you then operated?
00:07:28
Speaker 2: So, uh, and Michael obviously was fitting me in because, and he was the loveliest guy. And he said, look, that thing has to come out. And I've got one spare spot on my operating roster, uh, in 10 days time. And you've just taken it. So, I also had to then go and have a cystoscopy in three days' time, and that's where they have to put a camera up, yeah. You know that?
00:07:52
Speaker 1: Urethra, yeah.
00:07:53
Speaker 2: And because I had some inflammation in some other tubes as well, and that may be a sign of cancer. And so they also took a biopsy at the same time, so did that. So I get diagnosed. Three days later, well, two days later, basically, I have a medical appointment. Three days later, I have a cystoscopy. 10 days later, I have my kidney out.
00:08:17
Speaker 1: And they took the kidney out?
00:08:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, the nephrectomy, yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker 1: Did that solve the issue?
00:08:22
Speaker 2: Well, in some cases it does, but this is where the book came in because I was in the critical care unit lying there and I've got machines with leads and things going beep and things compressing my calves and I'm going, you know what, if this goes south, my daughter doesn't know anything about me. And so I thought, well.
00:08:45
Speaker 1: We hadn't mentioned the book.
00:08:46
Speaker 2: No.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: So you've recorded all of this in a book. I like the original title, The Secrets of a Good Parker, but I think you've changed the name of it, haven't you?
00:08:55
Speaker 2: Well, it's had a few alliterations, and it's just hard to come up with what suits all. We'll talk about the book.
00:09:03
Speaker 1: We'll talk about your recovery after the break. Bruce Lindner, the Prez, is my guest, folks, back shortly. My guest on Conversations, if you've just tuned in, it's Bruce Lindner. Yes, the Bruce Lindner, West Adelaide, Geelong Crows star, State of Origin star. But it's a graphic story where this, what he thought was a healthy man, good golfer, in the prime of his life, realised he's passing blood as he's urinating, diagnosed with a cancerous tumour on his kidney and was able to get it removed. But tell us about that. You know, the rehabilitation. You've been able to get an express operation, which is fair enough. And when you wake up, you're wanting to know the result, aren't you?
00:09:50
Speaker 2: Well, no doubt.
00:09:50
Speaker 1: Go through that process with us.
00:09:53
Speaker 2: So the express operation was knowing some people and being lucky enough that they were were still working at the time. So totally, unbelievably grateful for that because the stress is on you when it happens. You look and you go, well, if it was normal, by the time I get in to see another specialist, do more tests, have more x-rays, I'm going, this is another 12 to 16 weeks before this thing's out of you. And I'm going, that can't be good.
00:10:22
Speaker 1: And that could spread.
00:10:23
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I'm looking at any positive I can look at and I'm going, wow, this is a bit serendipitous in terms of everything falling into place. This is a positive thing for me. So that was there. It's a shock to the system because, I mean, I was early 60s, but mentally, like most people, you know, I don't know what age you think you are.
00:10:45
Speaker 1: I'm fine until I look at the actual numbers.
00:10:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. And I thought I was, you know, I felt like I was mid-30s, right? That's what I felt like. But suddenly you have this realization that you go, wow, I've actually, I'm on the back nine of golf. In fact, I'm on the back six holes of the golf course. But I still think I've got lots of time. But it is soul-destroying in the sense of why me, You know.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: Were you able to calm that, I don't want to use the word panic, but I guess there's a certain amount of panic about it or concern, deep concern. Were you able to control that by any process?
00:11:29
Speaker 2: Just through trying to be mentally strong. I pushed it as far back as I could. My wife was amazingly stoic in this whole situation. And so it was a case of, like most things, all right, what's the next stage of going forward? So you make processes of going forward. So after the operation, then you go, okay, rehabilitation. What do I need to do?
00:11:56
Speaker 1: So what's the doctor's verdict after the operation?
00:11:59
Speaker 2: You know, you wake up. Okay, so I wake up and he goes, we think we've got it out. It's stage four cancer.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Has it gone anywhere else? Do you ask that?
00:12:09
Speaker 2: Not at that stage. He says, I don't think it's anywhere else because there was a couple of the tubes that were inflamed and, um, he goes, they didn't seem to be cancerous. So we think we've got it all. So like most things.
00:12:22
Speaker 1: So you lost a kidney.
00:12:24
Speaker 2: Keep your fingers crossed, lost a kidney. You do the rehabilitation, um, you know, go for a walk a couple of days later. And then, then my, um, my methodology was wake up, do a little bit of, uh, cycling, indoor cycling, few pushups, sit ups, that sort of stuff.
00:12:41
Speaker 1: Mm.
00:12:42
Speaker 2: Just gentle. That takes half an hour.
00:12:44
Speaker 1: And then... Push-ups with a big scar on your back.
00:12:47
Speaker 2: Where do they operate from?
00:12:49
Speaker 1: All right.
00:12:50
Speaker 2: So the good news was he said, look, I don't know if the tubes, it's inflamed, but I don't know if it's cancerous. If it's cancerous, I'm going to have to operate and take, you know, basically open you right up, take all your stomach out, and then go from there. If it's not, then what we'll do is keyhole surgery. We'll still have to... make a scar in you to take out the cancer in the kidney, but it'll be a lot easier and less invasive. So that's what happened.
00:13:19
Speaker 1: So how long ago was this?
00:13:20
Speaker 2: 18, just over 18 months ago. And you're fully fit? Well, so then you go through the process. So I started a while ago, because I used to work a bit with Channel 7, and what had happened is I went to build a house in Unley, where I currently live, and I thought what I'll do is I'll take... Um, like videos of building a house and try and put it together as a, as a TV show. Anyway, I got lazy and I didn't do it, but I should have, because it took me seven years to build a house. You know, I had the council changing zoning laws on me, the whole box and dice, and it would have, it would have been a great, so I was disappointed I didn't do it. So when this happened, I said, you know what? Because when I was in the bed and, uh, it was sort of a, basically it's a sort of legacy stroke love letter to my daughter in terms of the book.
00:14:14
Speaker 1: You talk about it. You start writing the book on your phone.
00:14:16
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
00:14:17
Speaker 1: You think, well, I'm writing a book so my daughter knows my life.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and where she's from.
00:14:24
Speaker 1: So then when you wake up and come back to reality, when you look at what you've written.
00:14:28
Speaker 2: So a couple of funny things happen. One is my anaesthetist for the operation, he said, how did you find out? And I told him, he said, look, I can empathize exactly what you're going through. I said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, I had kidney cancer 10 years ago and I had a kidney out. And I said, well, how did you find it? He said, well, I had a gallbladder, which had some sludge in it. So I went to get it operated on and they did. And they took the gallbladder out and stuff like that. Went home for recuperation. Anyway, the next day, my daughter comes running in, dad, dad, dad, you've got to grab your medical stuff. You've got to come quick. There's a, car outside. It was a ute upturned, had an accident. I'll go in it. And so he crawled in through the space and IV'd him and kept him stable and all that sort of stuff. Next day he wakes up and he's brutally sore on his left hand side. Oh, I've done something with the stitches and that. So he brings his doctor and doctor says, look, CT scan straight away. Goes in, has the CT scan and they go, it's not your gallbladder, you've got kidney cancer. So that was 10 years And he said, look, I'm here, fit and healthy. And he said, I'm going to give you the best drugs. You'll be fine. We'll see you when you come out of this.
00:15:40
Speaker 1: Right.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: So sure enough. And I actually liked that feeling when you're going into an operation and you know, that, that blackness that suddenly happens, you know, like it's like a light switch.
00:15:50
Speaker 1: It goes off. You lost me there.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: And then, and then, you know, when you come to, you suddenly awake and, um.
00:16:00
Speaker 1: Anyway, so you started writing on your phone to your daughter.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was right in the sense that the drugs were fantastic. So I looked at the clock, and it was quarter past eight, and I was the last person getting operated. It was quarter past eight, and I'm going, okay. So I picked it up. Anyway, at about 5.29 in the morning, I've gone, I should stop doing this because there'll be a nurse coming to check on me. So you're still writing. So I'm still writing, right? Yeah. So sure enough, about seven o'clock, I get woken up. I pick up my phone because I think I've written a Pulitzer Prize here. This is going to be great. I pick it up and it's absolutely gobbledygook. I could hardly make out the thread of what I was trying to say. And so the drugs were great for masking pain and creativity, but for actually being able to use your vocabulary and stuff like that, it was impossible. And So I just sat there and I go, so I just had to totally rewrite it. So those eight hours were just totally wasted.
00:17:01
Speaker 1: So the bottom line is, as we get to the halfway mark, is you fully recovered?
00:17:07
Speaker 2: No. So that's the thing. So do the rehab. What do you do for the rest of your day? So I just sat down on the lounge and just started writing. And so one day I might write an hour, another day I might write five hours, whatever it was. And this is a true story. in about five months into the recovery. And I'm, well, I named the chapter, um, overconfidence. Cause I'm saying, you know, I'm drinking again. I'm enjoying myself. Am I getting too overconfident? And this was, I finished writing that chapter at one 30 in the morning. And I woke up at nine o'clock the next day, went to the toilet and I was bleeding blood again.
00:17:51
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:52
Speaker 2: And so, Then you go in and, to cut a long story short, it metastasized into my bladder.
00:17:59
Speaker 1: So how was that fixed?
00:18:02
Speaker 2: So once it metastasizes, your, what they call OS, which is overall survival, goes down big time. So to fix that, back to my urologist, go in basically emergency department and another cystoscopy, but this time it's called a TURB, T-U-R-B-T. And they go in, have a look around your bladder, and then I have like an electric wire or something, and they burn the, I think they burn the tumor off. And then I need to have cancer treatment. So the other one is operational, takes the cancer out, hopefully it's all gone. If it comes back, right, you need cancer treatment.
00:18:44
Speaker 1: So there's radiation?
00:18:45
Speaker 2: So, well, there's only.
00:18:48
Speaker 1: Chemotherapy?
00:18:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, chemotherapy doesn't work for kidney cancer. Basically, I had immunotherapy, which most people think, well, I thought immunotherapy was like slapping two fishes together sort of thing. But it's evolved quite well over the last few years.
00:19:06
Speaker 1: As we go to the break, are you cured?
00:19:09
Speaker 2: With kidney cancer, you're never cured. But what happens, and that's part of the book, is I write about my story, but then I write about all the the doctor's visits and all the scans and you go from one scan to the other. They call it scansiety. So what happens is every three months you have to go and have a scan and then you go and see your.
00:19:30
Speaker 1: We're going to take a break, but we're going to go, we're going to go back to your beginnings and talk about some positive stuff. Well, come on. I'm hoping it's got a happy ending. I think it does have a happy ending, but let's, go back to the beginning after the break. Bruce Linder is my guest, folks, back shortly. If you've just joined us on Conversations, folks, we're chatting with Bruce Linder, the Bruce Linder, the Prez. It's a graphic story about him being diagnosed with kidney cancer, the operation, and then further diagnosed with bladder cancer. But we're going to park that for a while because we'll come back to it. He's recorded all this in a book, which he ostensibly wrote for his daughter. But I think it makes great reading for the wider population, particularly if you love your footy as well. Can we go back to the start? Because I got wrapped up in your early days. And the thing that concerned me maybe or, you know, was moving was the relationship with your parents. Didn't seem to be that great.
00:20:33
Speaker 2: No, well, I guess. You could say it was dysfunctional.
00:20:37
Speaker 1: Why? On whose part?
00:20:39
Speaker 2: Well, all our parts, I suppose. I was an independent kid that just loved football and just wanted to be involved in football and play football. My mum and dad had stresses of their own. My dad had an interesting life in terms of he was the oldest of five siblings, of which two others were Don Lindner, who won a McGarry medal, and Hank Lindner, who... whose name was Theo, but also played state football. Yeah.
00:21:09
Speaker 1: North Adelaide champion.
00:21:10
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And Hank was described as raw and strong and Don athletic and, you know, could take a great mark. And my father, Keith, was older than, he was the oldest. He was bigger than Don and stronger than Hank. And in today's parlance would be a number one draft pick. I mean, I don't say that easily. But with my experience, I have an understanding of what skill sets and what traits are needed. And I think at 17 years of age, he was captain of Remarque B grade, which was a, you know, this back in those days that men played.
00:21:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:51
Speaker 2: So he was a serious footballer. And then he had his sliding doors moment where he suffered polio.
00:21:57
Speaker 1: Oh no.
00:21:58
Speaker 2: And so he was in the Hillcrest Infectious Diseases Ward for two years. My grandfather of Germanic background, I'm told, never visited him in those two years. And my dad was like a Vietnam veteran or a war veteran who never spoke about the war. He never spoke about his upbringing or his polio.
00:22:24
Speaker 1: So he didn't go to war, but he was impacted.
00:22:27
Speaker 2: So he lost the use of his legs primarily. He was in a wheelchair when he came out and was in braces or something for the leg. But his ligaments and muscles had all withered. But he must have had one of the strongest mental capacities to absorb pain because he taught himself to walk again. And he must have had a competitive drive because he ended up playing over 200 state games of bowls. He was, he was a reserve for the Commonwealth games in 1982. So a successful sporting career with limited. And your mum was a good golfer? Mum won the Riverland golf championship. And I believe she was a very good athletic.
00:23:09
Speaker 1: But you know, as I read, and as you're talking there, there's, there's no love or affection evidence. It was a hard up, hard rule upbringing as you describe it, you know, Walking barefoot, snakes, catching fish, catching rabbits, outdoor toilet.
00:23:26
Speaker 2: It was a Tom Sawyer upbringing. And I enjoyed it. I knew no different.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: So how did West Adelaide come along? Was that like an escape for you?
00:23:36
Speaker 2: West Adelaide came along. I remember getting a letter from North Adelaide when I was 12 years of age. And you had the North Adelaide rooster emblem in the corner. And I thought, wow, how good am I?
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Or the name, Linda.
00:23:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so they asked me to sign, and Dad said, no, no, let's just, it's the first time they've contacted you, let's just see what happens. And anyway, West Adelaide was zoned for that area, and I remember when I was 16, I came down and played in a trial game, and they said, yeah, we want you down, and I said, well, I'm happy to come down, but I need to get a job, and they couldn't find me one, so I went back, and then came again when I was 17, another trial game, and they said, yeah, we can find you a job.
00:24:16
Speaker 1: So how were you when you played your first game?
00:24:19
Speaker 2: I actually played my first, if you call it a league game, against South Melbourne. I stood Stephen Ackerley in the back pocket. He was back pocket.
00:24:27
Speaker 1: Like a pre-season.
00:24:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of those escort cup pre-season games. And that was my first game in 79. So I think I was 18 years of age. But my upbringing here, I wasn't disciplined to say the least. So it wasn't until Curls came along that I thought, you know what? I've been treading water for too long. I think I need to try.
00:24:48
Speaker 1: You won the reserves McGarry medal. What do you laugh at that?
00:24:54
Speaker 2: I played 11 games and I was dragged like six of them. And the funny thing about that is that Tony Simons played 12 games and I beat him by a point. And I didn't know this until I was taking him to a, with my work, I take, good accounts to wine and food festivals. And there was a, down at Panola Cup. I was taking him down there and he said to me, you know, my mum doesn't like you. And I said, what are you talking about? I told her I was going to Panola with you. And she said, why are you going with him? He beat you in the McGarry medal by that one vote. So, you know, they're like elephants, parents. They remember all that stuff.
00:25:36
Speaker 1: So they do.
00:25:37
Speaker 2: So 83. So that was in 81. And then 83 was the reckoning in terms of, I decided to do a full pre-season. I followed Larry Watson, who was Tim Watson's, and he was a fitness freak. And I thought, I'm going to do, I gave up smoking, sort of gave up drinking as well. I'm going to do whatever he does. And it was a hard slog, but the rewards were, you know, fantastic.
00:26:01
Speaker 1: You won the premiership.
00:26:02
Speaker 2: We won the premiership.
00:26:03
Speaker 1: Coase said, and I don't know whether we'd believe him or not, he said it was the best team he coached. Now, the 73 team at Grenoble were quite offended by that.
00:26:11
Speaker 2: Yeah. He has said that a few times. And he said a couple of nice things about me, which I don't know whether he was blowing me up, but he said that I should have won the McGarry Medal in 83 and that I was the.
00:26:25
Speaker 1: Well, Michael Aish was the red hot.
00:26:26
Speaker 2: No, no, no. Tony Antropos ended up winning.
00:26:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, but Michael Aish was the favourite and Stephen Kernaghan polled the most votes but was ineligible. Tony Antropos won it.
00:26:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. Where did you come from? Well, as I say, key position players don't really get too many votes.
00:26:44
Speaker 1: So then, Joe, you moved to Geelong?
00:26:47
Speaker 2: I signed with Geelong. Look, all I wanted to do, I wanted to stay at West Adelaide, and all I wanted to do was get some money and buy a car. So I signed what in those days was called a Form 4, which meant they'll give you money as long as when you go, if you go to Victoria, you play for that club. So I did that. I had a number of clubs. I was lucky enough. So 83 had a good state of origin. And so there was a few AFL, VFL clubs knocking. Signed with Geelong and I thought, oh, that's it. And then I said to Doug, if we ever go over Doug Thomas, if we ever go over who's the best football manager of all, when he mentioned a guy called John Shard. And John did Phil Malen, Bazzasto, Cotoggio, like a heap. And he basically... And he just did it as a hobby. He didn't do it to make money or anything. He just loved being involved in the football.
00:27:36
Speaker 1: So you signed with Geelong. You moved to Geelong. It seemed a bit up and down until last year you won the leading goalkeeper. Give us a snapshot of your time at Geelong.
00:27:48
Speaker 2: Okay, so my time at Geelong was difficult. I broke my ankle. I ripped my ankle out of its mortars and had a spiral fracture of the tibia and tore all the ligaments in the second game. against South Adelaide again, at Richmond Oval. And so I went over Geelong the following year, still in a plaster, ended up getting the plaster cut off, went to try and do training, and I garnered the nickname Poppy, and there was a trotter called Popular Arm, because I had a gait that was quite strange. We didn't find out until... Two years later, I had a knee reconstruction. I played the first six games, had a knee reconstruction. Then a year later, I had my ankle operated on again, and they found a piece of bone from the ankle joint the size of your thumbnail between the joints. So I had no dorsiflexion. So in 87, all of a sudden, I could move my ankle up and down like it should be, and I was like a... I was like a new recruit. And so that's hence why 87 was a pretty good year for me.
00:28:50
Speaker 1: We need to take a break. Bruce Lindner is my guest, folks. There's so much to talk about. We're going to have to rush through it. I can see that. They get most of it in. We're talking ostensibly about his new book, which I thought was called The Secrets of a Good Parker, but it's got a new title, Bruce. Has it not?
00:29:08
Speaker 2: It has. It's called Time On In The Last.
00:29:10
Speaker 1: It's about his health battle, and it's quite inspiring. Back after the break, folks. Bruce Linda is with me in the studio, folks. It's good to have him in the studio. Often we're doing these interviews by Zoom or Gup, but Bruce has come in and he's had health battles, which hopefully are in remission. Cancer of the kidney, which is removed. Cancer of the bladder, which probably needs reviewing and regular assessment. But we're talking about his footy career now. He started in the Riverland. obviously a young prodigy, moved to West Adelaide, had a couple of great years there. Were you drafted or did you sign with Geelong?
00:29:48
Speaker 2: I signed with Geelong.
00:29:48
Speaker 1: So you go to Geelong, you shake off the effects of an ankle injury. Tell us about Geelong.
00:29:56
Speaker 2: Well, I... Geelong was hard because it wasn't a draft. They'd signed me and they'd also, it was open slather in terms of recruitment in the then VFL because there was no salary cap per se at that stage. So Geelong had gone through some troubling times and were back in a situation where they wanted to recruit someone. So as I understood, Later down the track, the choice was between Brad Hardy and myself. So, you know, one goes on to win a Brownlow medal.
00:30:30
Speaker 1: One was a back pocket player, the other was a flamboyant forward.
00:30:34
Speaker 2: And the other, me, gave minimal return because of injury. And so I was.
00:30:40
Speaker 1: You did have a good year, though.
00:30:42
Speaker 2: So 87 was a good year. That was when I finally was fit and able to play. And a number of things fell into place. It was the end of my contract. Actually... I signed a two-year contract and my manager, John Shard, also inserted a clause that was the player's option to take it for another year. The player's option? Never heard of, basically, but this is what happened. And so I went into the general manager, Ken Gannon, after my two years and he said, we need to talk about your contract. I said, yes, I just want to inform you I'm taking up the player's option. And he said, what player's option? I said, this is the player's option. So I was able to have a good year. And then I signed a fully guaranteed five-year contract. It was the last of its time before the standard AFL contracts came in. And that was because I was being wooed by Brisbane Bears, as was Gary Ablett, and one of the officials at Geelong was in a bit of trouble for larceny, so they wanted some good news on the paper, basically. So I signed with a minute and a half to go before time ran out.
00:31:49
Speaker 1: So how did you end up with the Crows then?
00:31:51
Speaker 2: So what happened was after 1990, I was called, I was once told if you ever get invited to Malcolm Blight's office in Melbourne, be prepared. So I packed myself, this is a true story, I packed myself a recorder in my suit pocket, went up and saw him. He said, you know, initially it was all nice and cordial and, you know, I think it's time you moved on.
00:32:20
Speaker 1: And I went.
00:32:22
Speaker 2: No, I'm not moving on, Graeme. And he said, what do you mean? And I said, well, I'm not moving on. I've got a guaranteed contract. He said, I'll make you run marathons at training. I said, well, one of the clauses in my contract is that I have to obey all fair and reasonable directions from club officials. And I reckon I could go to court and argue that's not a fair and reasonable direction. So that put up, you can just imagine how Malcolm pushed back to that. So... But suddenly I had all these other options. Cut to the chase. What happened?
00:32:58
Speaker 1: Did you play again?
00:32:59
Speaker 2: No, no. So I fast-tracked the decision to come to Adelaide Crows.
00:33:04
Speaker 1: And that should have had a happy ending because your win-loss ratio with the Crows would be the best of any player who's played for them, I reckon. And you didn't play a lot of games, but I reckon with an.
00:33:17
Speaker 2: 80%, Yeah, at the time, it was reasonable. Maybe I picked the right games to play.
00:33:22
Speaker 1: Well, maybe you did, but still, there was no doubt you were important to us. And certainly in that first game, which I think the players in that first game need to be lionized, need to be their reputations enhanced. And remember, put it that way. It came to an end with a motorcycle accident. Now, you tried to talk your way out of that, didn't you?
00:33:47
Speaker 2: Well, it was difficult. I ended up putting a Ducati into a tree at about 110 kilometers. And normally you don't walk away from that. And so this was one of the things that when I look back in terms of the cancer, I go, you know, you've probably got 30 bonus years than what you should have had. So I was able to rationalize it a bit then. And I look back at that event and go, wow.
00:34:13
Speaker 1: You told me in confidence what had happened. I don't think you told Bill Sanders what had happened.
00:34:17
Speaker 2: No, because it was seen as a bit irresponsible when I was thinking about my contract at the time. Oh, you reckon? Well, hang on, don't you start, because you were in the hospital and said, you know, I can relate with that, Bruce. I went up on this hang glider before the finals and nearly killed myself. So I think you could empathise a little bit with me at the time.
00:34:38
Speaker 1: I didn't think I told you that.
00:34:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did.
00:34:41
Speaker 1: That was the craziest thing ever. So it came to an end and did you, you were going to be Tony Modra's manager.
00:34:49
Speaker 2: No, that was, I don't know who started that. So Tony worked with us sometimes. I worked for an automotive glass company where Rowie is involved now.
00:34:58
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:34:59
Speaker 2: And so I'd retired and I got into, I was put in the bad category at the Adelaide Crows because I was having lunch with the owners and Mods rang and said, where are you? And I said, oh, I'm here. And he said, oh, can I join you for lunch? So he joined us for lunch. And I said, you've got training after this. And he said, oh, I've had a gutful. I don't want to go.
00:35:21
Speaker 1: He had had a gutful.
00:35:22
Speaker 2: That was the start of 1994, wasn't it? Yeah, and I said, mate, it's up to you. But he said, nah, that's it. And he didn't go back to training that week. And I think maybe yourself or whoever.
00:35:33
Speaker 1: Bill and I went around the store room the next day and he said, I've finished. I've finished. And we said, look. because he missed training. And I said, well, just come, have a massage, do all that. We won't make you train. See how you feel. And slowly he came round. And as you've, I think, written in the book, we played Carlton the first game of the year and he kicked 13 or 14. It was on Steven Silvani too. So then he was back in the fold. But we always blame you for that.
00:36:02
Speaker 2: I know. But I was never his manager and I took the blame. Anyway.
00:36:07
Speaker 1: So let's wrap up the book. The book is, it's a journey through your life. And it's, I suppose, written from the point of view that this is what you want your daughter to know. But the rest of us, without intruding, finding it very interesting as well.
00:36:24
Speaker 2: It morphed over time though. So it started off as a love letter to my daughter. And then it was about recognition of friendship. It was about the journey I was on. But, It was also, I'm aware that I'm lucky. One of the things about the cancer is it's, you know, there's people far worse off than you. And, you know, I got that understanding. So it was, and part of that was the treatment, going through the processes, people will get a feel of what it's like. But I also, in the dark hour, I thought, What can I do that's a positive? What positive can possibly come out of this? And at that stage, I've gone, you know what? Maybe I can start raising some money for cancer research.
00:37:13
Speaker 1: And there's a QR code in the book which people can.
00:37:17
Speaker 2: Well, I don't want to give the hook away, but there's scans and there's scans and there's scans and there's a, you know, is he going to die now? Is he going to live? Go to the QR code and phone out. Well, hey, spoiler alert, I'm here.
00:37:31
Speaker 1: There it is. To change the subject completely, where did you get the nickname The Prez from?
00:37:38
Speaker 2: How did that happen? Look, that was Doug.
00:37:42
Speaker 1: Doug Thomas.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Doug Thomas, yeah. I was in his office in terms of looking at a contract. I was all of 17 years of age. I don't know what the contract would actually be legally worth, being 17 years of age. And I was negotiating with him and the phone rang and his secretary said, It's Bob Lee out the front. He wants to see you. And Bob Lee was the president of the club. And Doug said, righto, Bruce, you have to go. I said, no, Doug, I'm not going. I'm not going until this is finished, until this is done. And he said, who do you think you are, the bloody president? I said, well, if I need to be, I am.
00:38:19
Speaker 1: How did you have such confidence at such.
00:38:22
Speaker 2: A young age? I'm not sure. It was a cross between confidence and ignorance, to be perfectly honest. And as I say in the book, I I always have a 75% half full approach to life and people remember you for your successes rather than for your losses. And so I always try something, even if it's, you know, even if the odds aren't stacked up exactly right.
00:38:51
Speaker 1: Do you watch footy today? Do you watch the footy?
00:38:53
Speaker 2: I do. I'm not totally invested in it though. It's, it's a new ball game.
00:38:58
Speaker 1: It is a new ball game, but do you see any, do you see any of yourself, any of those players? See, today you would, you played 10 and a half forward in my day, but today you'd be that explosive midfielder, I think, that explosive mid, you know, the Marcus Bontempelli, even though you're, right.
00:39:14
Speaker 2: I can't believe the size of these guys. I mean, I was, I always said I was six foot, but I was actually five, 11 and three quarters, only because if I said I was six foot, then perhaps, you know, football clubs might recruit me because I'm a six footer, but, You know, to play center, I fought at West Adelaide at five, 11 and three quarters. Well, you wouldn't be able to.
00:39:33
Speaker 1: You played tour. We're coming to the end. You've had your health battles. You were told once by an African witch doctor that you would die in your 95th year. Do you believe him?
00:39:46
Speaker 2: He did all the things that where you're from, all that. And he said to me, have you got any questions you'd like to ask? And I said, when will I die? And he said, you will die in your 95th year and it's still a possibility.
00:40:01
Speaker 1: Well, let's hope so.
00:40:02
Speaker 2: I hope so.
00:40:02
Speaker 1: Mate, thanks for coming in. Good luck with the book. People can buy it.
00:40:07
Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you go to www.timeoninthelast.com, You can pre-order it or you can buy it there or all good bookshops.
00:40:16
Speaker 1: Time On In The Last by Bruce Lindner. The Prez. Thanks so much for coming in.
00:40:21
Speaker 2: Graham, it's been a pleasure. Really enjoyed it.
00:40:23
Speaker 1: Good luck, mate.
00:40:23
Speaker 2: Thanks.
00:40:24
Speaker 1: Thanks, folks, for joining us.
