From Points to Pointers: Shifting the Grading Paradigm

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Are you a school leader striving for excellence? Do you
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crave actionable strategies and fresh perspectives to navigate the challenges
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of education today? Get ready to take charge. This is Control,
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Shift Lead, giving you something to control, something to shift
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your thinking, and something concrete to help you lead your school.
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With Jim Witchman of Inspired Edification, and Adam Bush of
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AWB Education, your journey to empowered leadership starts now.
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All right, welcome, Welcome to January. This is crazy, first
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show of twenty twenty six. Jim, here we go. We've
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been doing this now a year.
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It's nuts. But man, is January. It's crazy. It's January.
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I mean I've already been on the road working in
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West Virginia and Virginia talking with a lot of people.
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I got to tell you, I love snow, but I
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like it for afar. Don't want to competed on my days.
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Yeah, that's it's been something already this year. It's been
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although it's been on the weekend, so we've lucked out.
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We haven't missed any time. We're not already worried about
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makeup days or anything. Yeah, I know a few school
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districts maybe didn't get that lucky, but but mine so far.
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But hey, happy new year, good to see you again,
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and I'm excited about our show today. It's it's it's
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great got energy coming back to the hallways with everybody
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here as kids are coming back from a break and
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we're just getting into that that semester for some of us,
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or getting ready to start, depending on when you could send.
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It's kind of crazy how that works.
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What I like about it is, you know, we talked
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about our last segment about with Jim didtrill of making
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sure our stuff leaves with energy h And I don't
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know if everybody saw that one, but what I did
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notice is people started sending me photos and examples of
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what they're doing from from the tree cart and everything
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from the dressing and my favorite though is in all
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the dress up days. It's a great this is a
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great lesson too. I don't think we're going to talk
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about it here, but you know, the six seven, the
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six to seven kind of thing. I've seen some schools
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where they're like, would you want me to call your mom?
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And then I saw when the adults owned it and
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took it from the kids. Yeah, kids were like, I'm out.
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I wasn't cool anymore. It was it was So what
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was cool is seeing this shift and the energy from
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the draining of the adults in there. So I think
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a lot of that is what we're talking about. And
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and now we're talking about let's rock and roll with
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the shift coming in here. And we've got one of
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the gurus, I would say, not only does he work
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for the prestigious University of Northern Iowa. That's right, got,
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that's right, go panthers, That's where my education started. When
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it comes to my first degree, you've got somebody pretty
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specially here, Adam, who we got here?
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I'll tell you what you're not joking. It's a heavy hitter.
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I mean, we're gonna kick off this new year with
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a heavy hitter, and that is doctor Matt Townsley. Uh.
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Doctor Townsley is an associate professor of Educational leaders at
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you and I a former district administrator. I believe twenty
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seventeen Central Office Administrator of the Year. Do I have
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that year ride, doctor Townsley? That's I thought. I'm an
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author of a book making Grades Matter. So if you've
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ever felt like your grading system doesn't quite reflect what
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your students actually know, we got your guy. We got
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your guy that you need to talk to right here.
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So welcome at Welcome to the show. We appreciate you
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hopping on.
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Yeah, thanks for the kind of introduction.
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Well, what a privilege is to be on the first
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episode of twenty twenty six.
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Ye, Jim, you're flattering me with the.
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You and I sweatshirt there, Budy, that's awesome, thank you. Yeah,
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we're talking before the show. I bet that sweatshirt's about
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as old as the first as long as we've known
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each other, Jim, Like it's been a while. I can't
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I don't know how many years it's been that we've
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known each other, but I love the look.
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It's very fresh and retro at the same time.
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Good time. It looks good on you. Jim. Well, nineteen
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ninety two was a couple of years ago, all.
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Right, maybe maybe not, maybe not, but you know, yeah, yeah,
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good stuff.
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Mine would have been ninety six, so to be my
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first U and I sweatshirt. So a little bit later,
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a little bit later, I.
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Believe there hasn't been one episode where I wasn't the
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oldest on the show.
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Ada'm so well yeah, yeah, and you're you're usually pretty
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good about getting our guests, So maybe you need to
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start working on that one.
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Maybe that should be your goal for February. I can
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do that. I do that. I'm happy and thankful that
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doctor Town's or a ka Matt, He's able to join
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us tonight because when you think about how his brain
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works and how he sees the pictures, and I go
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back to making grades matter, and Adam, you touched on
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this a little bit with the what is the purpose
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of grid? What is the purpose of that marketing? And
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then I go think back to and you don't have
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to go back very far where people would teachers would
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ask kids to bring in clean X boxes for extra
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credit points. That's back when Matt had hair. Yeah, and
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then and then yeah, you just those little things that
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are just like that isn't what the great is. Yeah,
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and we lose sight. So tonight, ladies and gentlemen, hang
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in there with us, because we got something very special,
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very special tonight.
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Well before we kick into it, Doctor Towns, they give
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our listeners a quick I know I gave a quick introduction,
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it gave the accolades, but tell us a little bit
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more about who you truly are. Who are we going
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to listen to tonight and why does this topic mean
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so much to you?
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Yeah, I just when I was a high school math teacher,
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I was always asking questions in the hallway of my colleagues.
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You know, how many points do you make homework worth?
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How much do you take off for late work? And
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as it turns out, I mean, those were natural questions
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to ask. But as I started really to think more
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deeply about it, what I realized is they were the
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wrong questions to ask, because I was asking all of
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these questions all about compliance and how do.
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You use grades as carrots and sticks?
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And to make a long story short, when I went
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to a math teacher's conference one year State of Iowa
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Math Teachers Conference shout out to the Iowa Council of
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Teachers of Mathematics. There I learned that maybe there's a
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different way of thinking about grades and that really, honestly,
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I mean, I wasn't like, you know, gonna quit teaching
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or anything like that, but it really was a professional
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game changer for me to go there and to that
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conference and just to realize that maybe that one breakout
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session that you know, every administrator hopes that they send
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their teacher to just has a groundbreaking, like thought provoking,
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you know, gonna come back and light the world on fire.
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That's what that was for me.
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And so I went from that teacher that just you know,
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taught based upon points, percentages and tried to hold kids
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accountable based upon the grade book to really thinking more
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about grading being communication and about feedback being for feedback sake,
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not just for number's sake. And long story short, went
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into administration and we did some really fantastic things in
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soul in Iowa. We didn't do everything right, but I
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think we did some great stuff. I think that's maybe
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how Jim and I really did get connected in a
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little small pool known as Iowa and educational leadership.
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Back in the day. I had some great stuff.
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There, and then in twenty eighteen made a transition to
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here at the University of Northern Iowa, teaching school leaders, principals, superintendents,
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doctoral students, all that fun stuff. And if there's one
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thing I'd get up in the morning and stay up
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late for at night, Adam and Jim, it's to talk
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about people about this thing called grading.
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I think there's just.
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A few of us in the world that geek out
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about this and so I don't know, maybe maybe maybe
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more than just a few, but that's right.
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I love about education. I love it. I love it.
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I love it. I love it.
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So thanks for the invite to be a part of
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this important conversation today.
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Absolutely tell our viewers that we are actually recording this
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at n nine pm Central times.
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So yeah, and he's still got the energy. He's not lying.
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He's fueled on water boys, nothing else, just water.
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Well, I'll tell you what that is as good of
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an intro as we can get. And I just can't
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wait to see what we're going to get out of
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you here tonight. So before we get to our our
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control segment, we're going to take a quick commercial break
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and pay a couple of bills and we're going to
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be right back as we shift into that control. So
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hang on, we'll be right back as we learn more
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from doctor at Townsley.
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Welcome back everyone. I got to tell you that opening segment,
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Doctor Townsley is definitely bringing the energy, but we're going
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to jump right into it. Before we get off on
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tangents and so forth, we're going to talk about the
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control of our control, Schift, Lead and education, especially in January.
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It often brings new mandates or new ideas or state testing.
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I hear a lot of people talking about testing, test
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test tests, you know, and things that we can't change,
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but we want to focus on the things that really
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do matter. So, hey, Matt, when we look at the
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classroom assessments through the lens of our work, what is
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the one practical thing teachers or principles can really control
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with all this?
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Yeah, yeah, great questions, Jivan.
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You know what like state testing, Man, it's just like
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one of those things we can talk a whole podcast,
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good bad, otherwise not fun. Well, I think about things
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that a principle teacher can actually like control within their purview.
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The first thing that comes to mind is the idea
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of redos, retakes and reassessment. Hear me out for just
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a minute, guys. You owe every educator watching or listening
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believes that students learn at different rates and different paces.
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They just do, right, story everybody Like. I've asked that
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question to thousands of educators and no one has pulled
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me by my bow tie afterwards and said, well, actually, talented,
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let me tell you about this class of twenty four
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and they all learn at the same pace.
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Yeah.
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Never nobody. So if we really believe that kids learn.
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At different rates and different paces, then we owe it
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to them. Whether I'm an individual classroom teacher just in
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control of my classroom, or I'm a building administrator and
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I can do a whole lot of things even without
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having to ask for permission from district office or the
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school board. It's to provide more opportunities for kids to
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redo and retake. And by the way, there's some bad
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ways to do this, like unlimited. You know, just hey,
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come in and try Form B will change the number.
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It's five minutes after you get for May back, Like,
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don't do that, but just start the.
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Conversation in your classroom in your school about, Hey, do
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we believe that kids learn at different rates in different places?
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Yes? We do.
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So what does that mean for us in Pe? What
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does that mean for us in art? What does that
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mean for us in fifth grade?
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Right?
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And I think most teachers I know are willing to
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talk about that. Now it's the details of how many
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times should allowed to reassess? What do they have to
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do between for MAY and Form B. What do they
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do if they go down on Form B compared to
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Form do they redo the whole for may or is
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it just a specific standard or a learning target. What
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if it's a big essay they have to write a
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brand new essay, do they revise the essay? I mean,
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there's a whole bunch of implementation details we can talk about.
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But let's start the conversation.
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And I know Jim's a big fan, and let's affirm
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those teachers in our school that are already thinking positively
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positively about this, and let's affirm them. Let's pat them
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on the back at a staff being, Let's highlight that
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teacher who's like, I've been doing this for the past
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five years and the world hasn't ended, and more kids
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in my class are motivated and learning at a high level.
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So that other teacher in the staff beings like I
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didn't even know that missus Johnson has been doing that
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for the past five years. Let's freaking go. And if
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you're an individual classroom teacher, give it a try. Throw
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it out there, say hey, how many do you think
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you could do better if we were to try this again?
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And I bet there's some students in every single class
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we're just like, yeah, I give it a try. Jim,
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you've tried this stuff. You've done this stuff. You're drinking
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the reassessment kool aid.
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I know it?
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Which man I am? I am? Well, here's the thing.
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I put on my phone to get downtown Cedar Falls.
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I put on my mat Burks I put on there.
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How do I get the Burks? It gives me five
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different routes to go all get me back to Burke.
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It might be three hours, it might be two and
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a half hours, it might be an hour forty five.
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I can avoid the interstate. I can avoid a lot
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of things train tracks, or pay tolls or whatever it is.
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We believe that we do it every day, but when
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it comes to student learning, we think it has to
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be done at a certain time because we can't manage
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it or the cases. I believe the numbers thirty six
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thirty six weeks kids have to learn. So let me
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ask you this question. When people that you've come across
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struggle with the concept, is it because the way it
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was introduced them, or because you know, like maybe the
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policy is your PLC set up a redo policy which
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then throws everything off. Because we have kids all over
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the place, do the teachers truly know what it looks
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like when a kid masters meets what it obtains the standard,
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do they know what the actual work looks like or
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the one hundred percent relying on a point and percentage?
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Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean you definitely want that
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first one. I think.
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I mean, here's the thing, though, Jim, even in a
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school where the teachers may not yet be teaching and
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assessing the standards, we can still do this redo and
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retake thing.
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It's not gonna be as good, right, It's not gonna
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be as good.
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And so what I think you're talking about there is, Jim,
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is where we want to go though we're not redoing, retaking,
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reassessing like a test or an essay. And thanks for
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helping me out here thinking through that. It's really more
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about the specific standard, learning target or skill. That's what
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the focus of that reassessment or that read you or
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that retakes all about. And I think that could also
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kind of take some of the maybe the frustration or
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the myths, the misunderstanding behind it is. It's because it's
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about the skill, Like do you believe that kid can
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show you in time that they have a better understanding
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of that skill, that standard whatever?
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Heck yeah they can.
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Heck yeah, that's exactly what it to be. I see
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it all about, So go ahead, dat.
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Well yeah, no, I was just gonna say, but I
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think the key here and both of you were talking
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about this.
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You're talking about having a plan.
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Right, It's not just the free will at a whim like,
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oh no, no, no, there's a plan to this. It's
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a it's a POC conversation, or it's a grade level conversation,
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or it's a building conversation, like there's a plan to
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do that, because typically the biggest piece of negative feedback
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I get from staff is that it's the you know,
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I'm a secondary teacher in the end of the semesters Friday,
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and now I'm going to be up until three am
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Thursday morning correcting all these papers because I had all
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these kids just dump all this work on me on
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the last day. And that's you're right, that part sucks.
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That's hard if we set up that type of a
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culture where we allow that to happen. But again, the
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plan is the key there. What are we as a
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as a team willing to do to give kids an
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opportunity to show more evidence?
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Yeah, it can't You're right, it can't be a free
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for all and there has to be some meaningful cutoff.
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Now in the real world, I mean in the in
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the ideal world, it's like Jim, Adam and Matt like
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going back and reconciling those you know bs we got
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in us history in high school you're and years ago.
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That's not what we're talking about.
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We're talking about, as Jim mentioned, within those thirty six
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weeks or that nine week quarter, or that eighteen week
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semester or trimester or whatever.
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How can we honor the fact that kids learn.
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At different rates in different paces, And there's got to
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be some very specific, you know, corrective instructional activities that
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students go through between their first attempt and their second attempt.
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I mean, that's just like you know, Benjamin Bloom's theory
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of mastery learning back in the day talked about that,
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and you know, way back in the day. It's just
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applying some of those concepts today as we think about
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redos and retakes and what that means for us as
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a classroom setting. I mean, here's the thing, right, Like
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I passed my driver's license test the first time. All right, Now,
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maybe somebody out there watched it, didn't If you fail
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the driver's license test. It's silly just to fail the
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driver's license test. Walk out the back door, walk in
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the front door, and try again. The best thing to
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do is to go home, study, come back and try
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it again.
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We want to create that same type of environment in
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our classrooms.
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I'm pretty sure in the eighties I had to set
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out a day before I could take my permit test again,
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I think so. So that was so this is not
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new we're talking about.
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They were already on the right then and there. That's
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right relearning moment right there.
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Yeah, literally, did I know that? Actually opening the manual
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was very helpful. So here's why I talk in this
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control thing. I hear, Oh, this is wonderful. There's a
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couple of things I'm grasping on the control just briefly,
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if I get it right. One, think about the purpose
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of why we're doing it. We want our kids to
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learn the information. We want them to learn the information.
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So that's not that we can control that part of it.
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And here's the other thing we control. If this is
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something of interest and Adam is going to get into
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this later on, if this is something of interest, there's
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three people right here where you can reach out, and
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we're going to help. I know, I know that Matt
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will drop everything if someone has any kind of interesting
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You saw the energy, We see the energy tonight, and
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the same with with Adam and I. So there's no
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one has to do this alone and we could do
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it in a meaningful, manageable and tangible way to do that,
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that's great, Yes, great, I love that.
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All Right, now we're back and it is time for
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the shift portion of our show. This is that part
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where we challenge the status quo a little bit. Matt,
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So your entire philosophy on grading it really does require
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a massive mind shift for some people, that mindset shift
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from a points chasing culture to a learning focused culture.
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So why is this shift so difficult for some of us?
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Yeah, great question here, Adam, and is I think about,
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you know, points chasing to learning focused?
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I think I want to make sure I attribute it
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to the right person.
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I think it's Sue brook Carton order for articles kind
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of reframe this as.
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Moving from earning to learning.
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You know, all about the classroom of the currency being
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about point accumulation to a classroom. What's really more focused
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on learning? Well, I think first of all, there's just
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a certain level of that goes along with point accumulation, right,
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Like that's if you're to ask any parent today, they
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probably did their homework assignments, or you know, brought the
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extra credit clean xbox in that Jim was talking about earlier,
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because it's points. Like I used to joke in my classroom,
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there were probably some families if I said bring in
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a whole case of paper from Costco or Staples, reams
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and realms and reams of paper for extra credit, or
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a whole case of Kleenex boxes, they would have brought
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five of them, right, And there's.
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Some families that we know couldn't.
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And that's just what's so crazy about it, right, And
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so there's this culture that we're working against that I'll
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do anything to get the points, even if they have
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nothing to do with learning. And I think, honestly, if
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I'm to look at myself, I was a part of
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that problem.
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Right.
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I used to emphasize to my students early on, like, oh,
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you should do this project or you should do this
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assignment because it's worth a lot of points. Hey this
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one's worth one hundred, or hey this one's worth seventy five,
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or you know what that one's worth.
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Just five or talking with that at.
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Parent teacher conferences, I would tell them like, well make
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sure they do this one coming up because it's worth
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a lot of points, right, And so I was a
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part of that points based culture. That's yeah, it's prevalent
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in school. So I fully understand where we're coming from here.
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But whether we like it or not, there's good things
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and bad things about no child left behind and every
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student succeeds act. But the thing I like about is
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it's focused on what do our kids know and not
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yet know? And I think as we now have a
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basis these standards, right, Jim was talking about that earlier.
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Now we know what every kid should be learning in
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algebra one or seventh grade social studies, and so it
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just makes sense for us to teach those standards or
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learning targets and assess those learning targets and a grade
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based upon those. And so it's like we now have
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this this like more fine grained thing learning goal we
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can now point to and say this is what we're
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going to utilize to determin and if a student is
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learning at a high level in this class. And we
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can point to those very specific skills standards, learning targets, competencies,
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whatever the act you want to call them.
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In your school, they're there.
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The states say we got to teach them, we might
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as well assess and great upon them.
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Let's go.
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I love it. Here's what I love about this too.
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So people are like, I used to run into this
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when we first started having these conversations. Well, I don't
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know how to create a formative assessment or whatever the
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case is. Like wait a second here, So you have
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your standard and you have a aspect of it. Maybe
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it's called a learning target. I can whatever you want
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to call it, and so you maybe put it on
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the board to where the case is everything we ask
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our kid to do should be talking about that learning target.
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And if that's true, we don't have to create anything.
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We just got to walk around and monitor and see
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what the word they're struggling with and what they have
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right and what part they're learning and what part they don't,
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and we're measuring against the standard. I mean it's not
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quite that easy, but it is. You don't have to
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create more work. It's like be the create the right
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work and then you don't create more work with that.
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And then when you had that parent teacher conference, like
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you were talking about what yours was. Oh my god,
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you took me to remember opening up the Red Book
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and then they'd say their kid's name and you would
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look at the numbers on that Red Book. Try tell
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me how you don't know my kid by telling me
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you don't know my kid by looking across at that.
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But you standing in the right class. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah,
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well I think that's part of it, like knowing the kid.
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That's really what you're talking about there. Yeah, you know,
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when we don't have exactly what it is we're trying
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to teach, and then what it is we're trying to learn,
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and then what it is we're trying to provide communication
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back to parents on how they learned. If we don't
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know that, we don't truly know the child. And it's
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kind of funny today we are having a conversation is
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about something different, but it's an an all team meeting,
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and we were struggling a little bit with the kid.
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Oh that we're trying to come up with what's the
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best support for a kid moving forward? Right, and we
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have all of these ideas and it was I'm gonna
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give her credit for because I love the line too.
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It's my estaul instructional coach Melissa Grin said's her name
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that works with me, And she said, you know what,
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we don't know exactly where this kid is. Heck, this
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kid might not be proficient at lunch. We don't know, like,
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we don't have a grade for this kid everywhere, we
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don't have an understanding of him. We've got to find
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that part out before we can truly understand what the
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next step is. And I mean the grading piece. A
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lot of times we just get so focused on academic piece,
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00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:35.359
but it's the whole child. Do we truly understand how
486
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.960
we're all developing that whole child so that that part's
487
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.559
really cool to.
488
00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:41.200
Hear hear me out, Like, I mean, here's the thing, Right,
489
00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.920
we've all been to the doctor's office. We've all taken
490
00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.279
our loved ones to the doctor's office. I mean, here's
491
00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.279
the thing. What if we went to the doctor's office
492
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.880
and then we you know, they say all right, all done, Jim,
493
00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:53.279
all done, Adam, all done, Matt, like you're a eighty
494
00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.640
five point six percent health We'd.
495
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:56.599
Be like, what are you talking about?
496
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:56.960
Right?
497
00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:58.200
Like, what are you talking about?
498
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.920
Or if you take your vehicle to the mechanic and
499
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.960
they're like, well, you're you know, your Toyota Corolla is
500
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.440
an eighty three point two percent.
501
00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:07.279
You'd be like, what in the X is going on
502
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:08.279
around here? No?
503
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.759
Like, and you're late for the appointment. So now it's
504
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:11.680
in seventy two percent.
505
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:13.319
No, right, that's right.
506
00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:13.559
That's right.
507
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.240
Can I just bring it in like soil filter with
508
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.039
that bring it up to ninety yep?
509
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:22.279
But the mechanic gives you a very detailed, you know, inspection, right, like, hey,
510
00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.839
here's how well your your brakes are, Here's how well
511
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.519
your battery is. Like they give you that detailed level,
512
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:31.039
like that detailed information about your vehicle.
513
00:23:31.480 --> 00:23:34.920
That's what you know. Standards based grading, standards reference grading
514
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:38.200
is all about, is having that same level of detail
515
00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:41.559
in our communication, except it's not about breaks and batteries anymore.
516
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:44.240
It's about you know, citing textual evidence and main idea.
517
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.279
In English class, that's really this big shift from going
518
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:51.440
from earning to all about learning that. So I was
519
00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:53.279
learning those standards and that stuff.
520
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.880
Oneful feeling that I'm going to tell you right now,
521
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.480
I'm stealing that and I'm going to use it. It
522
00:23:56.559 --> 00:23:59.400
might even be tomorrow, like Okay, we're gonna do a
523
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.839
twenty one point inspection on the on the grating for
524
00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:05.039
this kid. Oh, that's how we're going to provide that feedback.
525
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.720
That's that's amazing because that makes sense to me. I
526
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:09.599
get that every time I get in for an oil change.
527
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:14.079
Right, That's that's. Think about it like this. We talk
528
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.720
about interventions a lot, and it's hard to diagnose. So
529
00:24:17.799 --> 00:24:20.440
because we want when you go to a doctor, they diagnose, prescribe,
530
00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:22.960
and they monitor. Right, So we go into a student
531
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:24.519
and we know what they're struggling, but we don't know
532
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.000
what it is. We just keep pouring water in your bucket.
533
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:28.799
But we got to figure out where the hole is.
534
00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.359
Let it. Figure out where the bottom hole is, give
535
00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:35.279
an intervention there, prescribe fill that hole. Now we go
536
00:24:35.359 --> 00:24:36.799
up to the next hole or whatever the case is.
537
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:38.839
We don't do that because we're looking for that silver
538
00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.359
bowlt whatever the case is, what they need. Whereas you're
539
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.359
talking about don't bring in any more clinics boxes or
540
00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:47.240
put your time and energy in the one with the
541
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.119
most points. Figure out what the child needs and which
542
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.279
both of you are saying the same thing, and that
543
00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.279
is lean into that spot. I wonder if where our
544
00:24:56.279 --> 00:24:58.920
struggles are if we shift our thinking to finding the
545
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:00.680
hole of the bucket and then and that's what the
546
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.480
purpose of an intervention is to get into be able
547
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:06.119
to get to the standard and so forth, what it
548
00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:07.880
defined and what it looks like and so forth. We
549
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.720
can get to that level. And I know they're just struggles,
550
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:11.680
but it's not a quick and easy thing. But if
551
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.279
we can at lys start shifting that step out of
552
00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:16.440
our comfort zonely Adam kind of point it out a
553
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:18.599
little bit, then all of a sudden, Wow, we we
554
00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.839
got that twenty one point inspection. We can kind of
555
00:25:20.839 --> 00:25:23.200
figure it out. And what's going to happen is people
556
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:24.559
are going to want to keep going back to that
557
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:26.599
teacher because just the same reason why I want to
558
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:28.759
go to Heartland Tire for my car. They give me
559
00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:31.720
that information and they know me as Jim Witchmand because
560
00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:32.960
they're putting in a lot of cars there.
561
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.960
But CHI can trust that it's honest because they've proven
562
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:39.279
it to you. They're going to give you the straight answer.
563
00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.039
That's the same give me teacher, Yeah, we're going to
564
00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:44.200
give me a focusing on learning, not just.
565
00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:47.000
Yep, yep. They're not gonna give me the percentage. They're
566
00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.759
going to tell me specifically what it is. You got it.
567
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:52.519
Well, that's a big pivot, I know for a lot
568
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.480
of us too, especially It's not about completion. It's not
569
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.279
about an event, you know that all we have a test. No,
570
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:02.880
it's about the assessment of learning. It's evidence of how
571
00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:05.799
we're progressing towards those standards. That is quite a shift.
572
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:10.680
It's a very necessary one. When Matt great one. Yeah, oh,
573
00:26:10.759 --> 00:26:12.799
I'll tell you what. It just feels like equity and
574
00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.039
clarity for all of our kids, every single kid in
575
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.759
that building. I just love it. Well, let's stick around.
576
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.720
We've still got our lead segment coming up. And we
577
00:26:19.759 --> 00:26:22.720
got even more from doctor Matt Townsley here on Control
578
00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:25.079
Shift Lead. So hang on everybody, we'll be right back
579
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:26.519
after this short commercial break.
580
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:39.599
We're back for a final section Control Shift Lead. And
581
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:42.039
I gotta tell you it's been high energy. And again
582
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.640
we're talking like we're posting nine pm on Central, so
583
00:26:44.680 --> 00:26:48.160
this is actually amazing in a cold January night, So
584
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:51.839
this is crazy with that. Hey, hey, Matt, this is
585
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.440
kind of for our administrators. This section of lead is
586
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:57.640
for administrators, teacher leaders. As we come around, maybe the
587
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:00.319
ones driving the bus or encouraging those on the so
588
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.720
just being a part of it really with that, or
589
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.640
those who really want to take a step earlier, Like
590
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.599
you guys said in your classroom, what can you do?
591
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.480
I think you were talking about that that very first
592
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:12.599
control segment there. So you've led initiatives or kind of
593
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.839
like a shift or you've evolution of thinking along the way.
594
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.079
For a principal sitting in their office or a teacher
595
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.559
who's listened to this and they say, I'm in my classroom,
596
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:23.400
I really get this, but what do we do now?
597
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:26.240
What is that? What does that leadership move for them? Yeah?
598
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:26.599
I love it.
599
00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:28.359
So here's the fun thing you asked this question. I
600
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.000
was actually on Zoom this morning with two different groups.
601
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.599
I feel like we're doing this well. The first thing
602
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:35.640
that that that the leaders in these districts did is
603
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.160
they said, I'm not going to be the only one
604
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:39.240
doing this. I'm going to form a team and we're
605
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.079
going to do this together. You know, you're talking principal, assistant, principal,
606
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.519
counsel or teacher leaders some teachers. You know, some schools
607
00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:48.680
call it their leadership teams. Some schools call it their
608
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.440
guiding coalition. They're grading task for us what do you
609
00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.079
want to call it? But they're form they're former team
610
00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:55.559
and say we're going to do this together, all right,
611
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.440
two different districts. I was on zoo with today, like
612
00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.880
we're doing this all right, and with that team, they're
613
00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.119
trying to do things in a specific order. It's not
614
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:09.799
exactly linear, Jim, but there are some important first steps. Okay,
615
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:11.720
now I'm gonna zoom out for a second. I get
616
00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.279
these types of phone calls and emails literally every month.
617
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.839
Somebody emails and says, hey, talents here, you're the grading guy.
618
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:21.359
Can you tell us, like, you know, what should our
619
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.799
report card look like? Or can you tell us like
620
00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:26.799
how should we wait our grade book ninety ten, ninety summative,
621
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.559
ten informative or whatever you know? And those are all
622
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:33.480
great questions, those are all important. But what I want
623
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:36.519
to say is is that's hopefully not the first question
624
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:39.359
you're asking. I gotta go back to doctor Super Brookkark,
625
00:28:39.400 --> 00:28:40.480
doctor Tom gus Keelers.
626
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:41.519
They're like, you know what, the.
627
00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.720
First question a leader's got to ask themselves is what
628
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.000
purpose do we want our grades to serve?
629
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:47.559
Or convention?
630
00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:49.519
Right? So like we just got to talk about that
631
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:51.240
in the previous segment, right, we want to go it's
632
00:28:51.279 --> 00:28:54.640
not about point accumulation, it's not about compliance. It's we
633
00:28:54.680 --> 00:28:58.079
want our grades to communicate learning in relation to the
634
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:02.079
state standards or whatever. So like the practical deliverable of
635
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:04.480
all that is to say, here's the purpose of grading
636
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.119
in our school. The best leaders out there, they know
637
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:09.480
the mission, envision the school, and they're living it out
638
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:12.039
words on the wall. If I can use a phrase,
639
00:29:12.079 --> 00:29:17.440
I know you know, Jim Witchman. All right, So we
640
00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.480
got to have that same mindset when it comes to Grady.
641
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:23.119
All right. So here in Iowa, there's a convenience store
642
00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:24.559
called Cases, all right.
643
00:29:24.920 --> 00:29:28.599
And so here's the deal. If Adam's wearing his you know,
644
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.319
his school district's logo right here on his quarter zip
645
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:34.079
as he's filling up his Toyota Corolla at the gas station,
646
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:36.000
and somebody else on the other side of the pump
647
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.200
is like, hey, I heard your school district is doing
648
00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:39.960
something different with grading Adam.
649
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:41.559
Like any educator.
650
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.480
Autimile to just tell them on from one side of
651
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:46.039
the pump to the other, like here's what we're doing
652
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.960
and why. And it starts with that grading purpose statement,
653
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.559
So that leader has got to be thinking. I got
654
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.759
to rally my staff around this collective agreement around what
655
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.119
purpose are grades going to serve in our school? That's
656
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.799
the a very first step, all right, And we're gonna
657
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:05.559
do that with a team, and then we're eventually gonna
658
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.519
roll that out to our entire staff to get them involved,
659
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:11.400
asking questions, all that fun stuff. I mean, there's all
660
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:13.359
kinds of other stuff after that, Like, you know, we've
661
00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.039
got a great purpose statement. Now we're gonna have like
662
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:17.599
a you know, grading policies in our school, like how
663
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:20.160
we're gonna handle those reassessment things we just talked about,
664
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:23.400
how we're gonna handle homework, all that important stuff. But first,
665
00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:26.039
what's the purpose of grades in our school?
666
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:27.799
Step number one?
667
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:32.200
I'm assuming if we don't have that down path, you
668
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.519
don't move forward. You've got to get that down path.
669
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:36.680
Yeah, if we don't have that, we're gonna have all
670
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:40.279
kinds of like misalignment, like why are we doing retakes?
671
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:42.119
Why does our grade book look like that?
672
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:42.440
Right?
673
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:43.119
You got it.
674
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:45.599
So here's the thing. It just took me right back
675
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:47.400
to one of my worksheps I do is I try
676
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.119
to talk about common language, common experiences, right, I mean
677
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:52.799
you don't know that because but that's what I do.
678
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.799
So I'll put a picture of popcan on the on
679
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.400
the screen. What do you guys call that? Some call
680
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:59.839
it soda, some call it a pop Put a remote
681
00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:01.440
up there? What do you call that? A remote? A
682
00:31:01.480 --> 00:31:04.160
clicker or a dial? So they all get all these
683
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.880
different things. A shopping cart. Do you call it a
684
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.400
shopping cart? You call it a buggy? They call it
685
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.319
buggies in the South. It's really crazy to me that.
686
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:13.519
So you go all that. They're like, what's the big
687
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:17.039
deal about this? So when I'm talking about grading and
688
00:31:17.079 --> 00:31:19.720
it's not the same thing as everybody else, it gets confusing.
689
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.480
So I will put up there, what about this purpose
690
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:25.200
of upgrades? Does everybody have the same purpose of grades?
691
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:29.200
And it's really quiet, the purpose of a teacher or
692
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:32.559
the role of a teacher really quiet. We go back
693
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:36.680
to the purpose of assessments quiet because they're all looking
694
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:41.039
around thinking how about a discipline referral? And it still
695
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.640
stays quiet, and we start talking about all this. What
696
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.079
you just were saying there is if we can't get
697
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:50.039
a line as a system, think about the frustration we're
698
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:55.160
causing our children yep, and their parents. So this kind
699
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.480
of goes this leadership concept goes right to a shift
700
00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:00.279
or you're thinking and something you can control. We don't
701
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.640
want to have the conversations because you can get a
702
00:32:02.680 --> 00:32:05.720
little messy. But it's more about why we're having the
703
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.920
conversations is what we're doing. And I think, Matt, you
704
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:11.319
do a great job, but we just define it. We
705
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:14.200
don't care, just define it. Come up with a common
706
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:15.039
definition with that.
707
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:19.319
Yeah, it's it's an exercise to go through to like
708
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:21.799
to unify or understanding of why the heck do we
709
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:23.559
even put stuff in the grade book?
710
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.000
Right?
711
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:27.799
And that conversation I think many educators they want to
712
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.079
have and others while it might be uncomfortable, it needs
713
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:33.559
to happen in the school if we're ever going to
714
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:37.759
move away from this compliance earning focused schools and classrooms.
715
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:40.559
I really think deep down many of us don't really want.
716
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.200
Agreeing that conversation the other day with an administrator too,
717
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:45.759
that was talking about, you know, how to continue to
718
00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.319
move this forward because you know, we're at a stage
719
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.000
of my school where we're kind of hitting some bumps
720
00:32:50.039 --> 00:32:52.519
in the road. We're not quite getting the traction we're
721
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:55.000
looking for. And I think this was a great point.
722
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.279
He said, at the end of the day, we're never
723
00:32:57.359 --> 00:32:59.960
going to be able to actually get this for parents
724
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.000
to understand it until their kids can explain it to them.
725
00:33:03.400 --> 00:33:04.839
That's where it's going to start and go.
726
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.519
Yeah, and we can't get our kids to understand it
727
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.920
if we don't understand it right, if we're if we're
728
00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.440
using that different language, they're not going to pick up
729
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:17.079
on it. And again, I just know for my own
730
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.079
kids coming home, heck, I was the principle of their building,
731
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.400
right okay, and they're sitting here trying to explain it
732
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:24.440
to my wife like, I don't know.
733
00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:25.359
I can't do that.
734
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:28.400
You know, we we weren't good enough at that time
735
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:30.839
for them to be able to carry that weight of
736
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.440
This is the why behind it, this is what we're doing.
737
00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:35.279
I get it. I get what I need to do.
738
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:38.680
I understand my own learning, all of those pieces that
739
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:40.640
go with it. It's going to have it starts with us,
740
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:42.880
but it's gonna have to flow through those students got
741
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:43.480
to flow through.
742
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:46.759
I mentioned the previous school, I was a principal that
743
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:49.400
we did evolve tow one hundred percent standards mindset, So
744
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:53.839
everything was their standards mindfit set. What you just said
745
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:55.720
is what happens. The teachers started in line, and it
746
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:58.160
started with our literacy sixth grade literacy teachers. They still
747
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.799
really started getting there in some of those hic they saw,
748
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:03.400
like you know, the question how many things do we
749
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:05.079
have to have in the grading book? And all those
750
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:07.200
things that go in there, they started messing with and
751
00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:09.400
then we started talking and then they started asking the questions,
752
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.079
like I said in our break, can we get away
753
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:13.599
from the grades because we're trying to tell people that
754
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:15.920
help their parents how their kid, what their kid has learned,
755
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:17.679
and what they need to learn, and then we have
756
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.119
to convert that to a grade that really doesn't reflect
757
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.320
on their students learning. And I thought, whoa, that was powerful,
758
00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:25.960
and they started going. But the way they taught, they
759
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:29.800
made the language common, and then it happened in other
760
00:34:29.960 --> 00:34:32.400
subject areas and content areas, and then we have a movement.
761
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:34.760
Then we have a wave. They can go home and
762
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:36.960
they talk to the kid, They can tell their parents
763
00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:39.760
about I need to get this in my essay, so
764
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:42.239
to speak, because or a composition, whatever you want to say,
765
00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:45.559
because I'm missing this, whatever the case is, and when
766
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:48.639
they can have that conversation. That's why I don't have
767
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.119
I didn't have. We didn't have phone calls that were
768
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.679
tearing us apart. It was just just a couple of
769
00:34:54.760 --> 00:34:58.880
questions I just need to answer, and the parents were wonderful, wonderful,
770
00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:01.159
But it started with the communication. Like you guys said,
771
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:02.960
what the stupid is? Well, the staff had to get
772
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.440
it clear first. Then we brought the students along, but
773
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:10.119
we made it authentic in our instruction. It wasn't about grades.
774
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:13.159
Kids would come to us and say it's sixth and
775
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:15.519
seventh grade. My mom said, I have to get a
776
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.920
B or at A. I don't know what that means. Interesting,
777
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:21.320
but that's what they're their lowest level of training as
778
00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:23.480
the parents are experienced. So we have to help and
779
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:26.920
that we out to ask the right questions. They're not condescending,
780
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.199
but just real questions. Within that absolutely yes, but it
781
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:33.840
all starts with that definition of coming up with common language.
782
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:37.239
That's for sure. Then go well. Leadership is about staying
783
00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:40.000
the course because sometimes it can be wavering. And you know,
784
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:43.039
we always have those systems where you know, what's what's
785
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.719
the principle read this summer and that's what we're going
786
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:48.519
to do, I know, right, So one of the things
787
00:35:48.519 --> 00:35:50.519
I always guaranteed is we're going to operate as a
788
00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:53.400
standard mindset, so we're not changing and it's going to
789
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.719
be that way. And we stayed that course over and
790
00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.400
over again within that and we're going to head into
791
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.320
our last commercial here with kind of that thought process
792
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:03.280
in mind. We're gonna come back, we're gonna wrap it up,
793
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.480
gonna catch up on what's coming up in the next
794
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.440
segment with doctor Townsley's up next. How we can reach
795
00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:10.320
out to him. This is what he does, This is
796
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.159
his passion. If you weren't able to pick up on it,
797
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:13.760
I'm not sure what you were watching there.
798
00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:26.639
All right, What a way to start twenty twenty six,
799
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:29.360
which even just saying that's kind of scary in itself,
800
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.519
but what a great way to start it. I mean,
801
00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:34.519
that's more than even just a proficient way to start that.
802
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:37.760
See what I did there, right, We're exceeding already with
803
00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:41.159
you in this room today. So doctor Matt Townsley, thank
804
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.599
you again for sharing your expertise with us today. And
805
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:47.119
unfortunately we try to keep this show about to this
806
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:49.760
length and I think we could spend.
807
00:36:49.480 --> 00:36:52.199
Days and days and days.
808
00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:54.280
Continuing to talk with you and you would still have
809
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:56.239
a lot there. But Jim, we've covered a lot of
810
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.480
ground today. Can you do us a quick favor recap
811
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.280
a little bit on what we can control, what will
812
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:04.960
shift our thinking, and what you can take to lead
813
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.960
as those takeaways for our listeners before we close up today.
814
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:11.440
What I like about this segment is the recap can
815
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:13.679
go in any of the categories because it just fluid.
816
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.320
It's so intertwined within that. So I'm going to try
817
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:20.760
to recap within that. So the control part, it's just
818
00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:24.239
really remembering that we can control that the timeframe there, well,
819
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.079
we can't control with the time frame that the kids learn,
820
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:28.639
but we can control the fact that we're going to
821
00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:32.239
allow them to learn at their pace, within reason, within limitations,
822
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:34.559
and within our structure that we have. And we also
823
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:36.719
have to understand that there's not a one size fits
824
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:40.480
all within that again, something we can control that practice
825
00:37:41.400 --> 00:37:43.800
for shift, I think that was the cleanest one to
826
00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.880
really kind of dig into, is moving from earning to
827
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:50.679
learning earning point learning to learning, So we're stop chasing
828
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:52.639
points to really chase in the learning and the only
829
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.480
way we can do that can happen is if we
830
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:58.039
get really crystal clear a way we want our children
831
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:00.960
to learn. And it doesn't mean for percentages, it doesn't
832
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.920
mean points. It's about the actual tangible standard or whatever
833
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:07.360
that your district decides or determines within that yea and
834
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:11.559
then finally within the lead, it's really about the purpose
835
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:13.960
the intention. So I know that there's a lot of
836
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:16.000
educators sometimes that are getting on the Hanster wheel and
837
00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:17.719
they're just trying to get through the moment, get through
838
00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:20.480
the day, get through the whatever it is, kind of
839
00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:24.840
losing our purpose. We can do something about that with
840
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:27.639
our leadership, whether it be a teacher leader, individual classroom
841
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:31.039
or a principal superintendent of just really defining what is
842
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:32.840
it that we're doing. And in the absence of that,
843
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:35.639
we're like floating all over the place and we're confusing children,
844
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.519
we're confusing the staffings, colleagues, and think it's really frustrating.
845
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.159
So back to lead, it's very simple grading for purpose.
846
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:44.920
What's your purpose statement along that, take the time, make
847
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:48.280
the time to do that. And I stress to the
848
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.559
listeners out there, we got three people here that will
849
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.119
help out you reach out and if we can't, we
850
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:56.400
don't know the answer, we're going to step into it.
851
00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:58.440
And Adam, I know you can probably get into this
852
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.199
a little bit so before. Sorry about that. If our
853
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.119
listeners want to know more about a portion of this segment,
854
00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.440
we can lean into it. We'll get the Good Doctor
855
00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:08.400
back on and we're going to we'll lead right into
856
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:10.320
one of those segments. Yeah.
857
00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:12.360
Absolutely, And that's kind of what I was hinting at there,
858
00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:15.239
is that. I mean, we're just you're just scratching the surface.
859
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.519
Let's be honest, doctor Townsley, And it's not as easy
860
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:20.679
as we'd like it to be. Unfortunately, it just isn't.
861
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:22.840
This is hard work. It's very hard work. I mean,
862
00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:27.079
we are talking about we are talking about changing decades,
863
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.599
decades of the way things were done and the way
864
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:32.920
most of us grew up in that and started our
865
00:39:33.559 --> 00:39:36.880
careers in that. It is it's tough. It's tough work.
866
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:40.239
So yeah, we're just scratching the surface. And you're exactly right, Jim.
867
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:42.400
There are people out there that can help you. And
868
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.559
that's the thing. It doesn't have to just be your job.
869
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.000
It doesn't have to be your challenge in my classroom
870
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:51.440
or just amongst my team, there are people out there
871
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.920
that are able to partner with you and to move forward,
872
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:57.559
which is just awesome. That's great, Doctor Townsley. What is
873
00:39:57.679 --> 00:39:59.119
next for you? I know you do a lot of
874
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:02.760
this work and continue to teach and develop the next
875
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:05.079
line of teachers and educators out there coming out of
876
00:40:05.119 --> 00:40:06.599
the great University of Northern Iowa.
877
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:07.840
But what else she got going on?
878
00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:11.079
Yeah, twenty twenty six gramp twed to continue supporting schools
879
00:40:11.119 --> 00:40:13.320
out there. We've got a couple of leadership teams here
880
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.679
in Iowa I'm working with to help them go from Hey,
881
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:19.119
we know that grades need to look differently in our school,
882
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.480
to start developing like a grading purpose statement and start
883
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.679
to figure out how to support teachers in their school
884
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:27.199
to start thinking differently about grading. We've got a big
885
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:31.159
standards based grading conference coming up here in Iowa in June,
886
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:32.920
so reach out. If you're going to be in the
887
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.400
area in June, bring your leadership team. We can help
888
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:37.920
you with some of these ideas we're talking about here today. Also,
889
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.320
if you're looking for resources and all that type of stuff,
890
00:40:40.320 --> 00:40:45.280
hop on Google type all things standards based grading, All
891
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:48.840
things standards based grading. I just updated that part of
892
00:40:48.840 --> 00:40:51.800
my website over the holiday break, and lots of great
893
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:56.079
resource in their podcasts, articles, books, all kinds of stuff
894
00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:59.559
to click through and access to really continue building your
895
00:40:59.559 --> 00:41:02.400
repertoire if you will, of what all this looks.
896
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:03.679
Like and what it can look like in your school.
897
00:41:04.000 --> 00:41:07.079
And honestly, just like you guys, just you know, answering
898
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.519
emails and phone calls and people that are reaching out saying,
899
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:12.039
can you, you know, just talk to me for five minutes,
900
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:14.280
can you appoint me in the right direction. That's what I
901
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:17.480
love about being education. Like, it's not it's not some
902
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:20.000
competitive thing. I mean, if you call me up and
903
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.239
Jim Wishman's the guy, I'm just gonna like send you
904
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.119
to Jim and say, get fired up and have Jim
905
00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:27.559
talk with you. He's better at a bunch of stuff
906
00:41:27.559 --> 00:41:29.400
than I am. And so like I'm just here. We're
907
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:30.840
just here support people along the way.
908
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:32.480
Yeah, flattering, that's a big thing.
909
00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:34.519
We're all good about stealing from each other and sharing
910
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:37.159
with each other anyway, That's just the point, Like you said,
911
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:38.880
it's not a competition. At the end of the day,
912
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.400
we all want what's best for all kids.
913
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.000
Making about the kids. I really like that making about
914
00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.119
the kids, that's for sure. Hey, Anamal, you got going
915
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:48.559
on say that again, Jim, what do you got going
916
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:52.599
on to the next month? Uh, January into February.
917
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.800
Yeah, so I got a little break from a grad class,
918
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:57.000
which is awesome to get us start that back up
919
00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:57.840
towards the end of the month.
920
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.039
Here.
921
00:41:58.920 --> 00:42:00.559
Whether I think this is a good idea or not,
922
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:04.360
my health thinks this is a great idea. But I
923
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.239
referee high school basketball, so I'm going out two nights
924
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:11.840
a week and you know, having people either agree or
925
00:42:11.840 --> 00:42:14.440
not agree with every moment that I that I have
926
00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:16.400
during that day. But I'll tell you what, it's fun.
927
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:18.800
It's a great time. I enjoy got a good crew
928
00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:20.719
of people that I work with and get a chance
929
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.679
to see kids out there doing something different for once,
930
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:25.280
you know, trying to do something that they have a
931
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:27.280
passion in. And it's fun to be part of those
932
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:30.119
evenings with everybody out there. And again forces me to
933
00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:32.119
run a little bit, forces me to get out there
934
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:33.840
and exercise, So I enjoy that part of it.
935
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:35.800
I've always want to ask this to a referee at them.
936
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:38.599
Well, it's like a tight game at the end I
937
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:42.719
know the coaches adrenalinees just pumping, and the student and
938
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:45.599
the athlete to drive. What's it look like to be
939
00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:47.800
a referee in a tight game at the end as
940
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:48.800
you're adrenaline pumping.
941
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:49.320
What's it like?
942
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.239
Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. You can feel that part of it.
943
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:54.760
It's funny because you'll you'll hear people and I'm guilty
944
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:56.719
of that too, especially when my team's won, like, oh,
945
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:58.519
they should have blown the whistle. They didn't want to
946
00:42:58.519 --> 00:43:00.400
blow the whistle at the end of the game. I'm
947
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:03.000
telling you right now, if there are officials out there
948
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:05.719
that can do that, they are a way better official
949
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:08.880
than I will ever be because I am just concentrating
950
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:11.920
from first whistle to last whistle to try to get
951
00:43:11.960 --> 00:43:14.360
the call right. I can't think about that stuff, to
952
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.480
be honest. It's like, yeah, I guess the game's over now, Okay,
953
00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:19.440
all right now, we're ready to move on. We just
954
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.440
got to make make the call at the right time.
955
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.440
But it is it's fun and it's it's exciting to
956
00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:27.159
be part of that moment that people are going to remember.
957
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:29.599
I just had a couple couple of nights ago. I
958
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:31.719
had a kid turn around and right at the end
959
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:34.079
of the quarter. Just I mean it was a hail
960
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:36.960
Mary heave and it just right on through the net
961
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.239
and the place erupts and it was it was fun.
962
00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:41.400
I guarantee you that kid's gonna remember that moment for
963
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:41.960
a long time.
964
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:43.320
It was really neat. Did you wave it off?
965
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:46.199
Oh no, he mailed. He nailed that, sucker. I would
966
00:43:46.239 --> 00:43:48.239
not have been a very popular person that night.
967
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:52.079
Yeah. Hey, yeah, I want to be very clear on something.
968
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:54.719
And you said you were taking grag classes. I believe
969
00:43:54.719 --> 00:43:56.199
the word is doc classes.
970
00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:59.159
Yeah, that is true. That is Yeah, we're we're not
971
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.239
talking greg classes. I've got some work to do. But yes,
972
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:04.400
that's that's a goal. I'm going to get to that goal.
973
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.239
We're going to finish that up. So I can throw
974
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:08.079
a couple of letters and at the end of my
975
00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:09.880
at the end of my name, so you bet.
976
00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:12.719
So I got to I want to do a jim
977
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.679
you traveling up to I'm going to be in about
978
00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:20.119
ten different states in the January February working with people.
979
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.119
We talk a lot about standards on that, but we're
980
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.239
really talking about common language, common experiences, and so forth.
981
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:28.159
So it's tiring, but it's also that invigorating that you
982
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.400
get to work with people who are really trying hard
983
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:33.400
to be their best selves and just helping them. They
984
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:35.039
all have it, they all have the talent. It just
985
00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:37.840
is kind of clearing waste from the mud. We know that.
986
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.039
I do appreciate being that excitement and helping people along
987
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:42.920
the way. That's for true. I also want to give
988
00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.599
a shout out to Matt for this reason. He's one
989
00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:50.920
of my fellow very loyal bow tie wearing a gentleman.
990
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:52.960
I didn't know whether to wear a bow tie today
991
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:54.480
or the Northern Iowa right.
992
00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:56.039
We didn't want to show up our guests, So I
993
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:57.480
get that I didn't want to show up.
994
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.920
Bow Tie brothers. Yeah, bow tie brothers. And it's always
995
00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:04.159
on there. And I appreciate Matt how you always reach
996
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:07.400
out throw a little little, you know, a little note
997
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.320
on my social media post about keep at it, good up, Jim.
998
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.519
I just really do appreciate that. I also appreciate that
999
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.000
you being on the show, not just tonight, but I
1000
00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:17.559
know you're going to be on there in the future.
1001
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:18.199
That's for true.
1002
00:45:18.559 --> 00:45:19.039
Appreciate you.
1003
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:21.239
Speaking of future, Adam, we got some we're going to
1004
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.599
take a little different turn another you and I grat
1005
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:27.159
is going to be on there, mister Bobby Long Bobby
1006
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.440
is that we talk about teacher leaders along the way.
1007
00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:32.119
Bobby's been an education gosh, I think it's been about
1008
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:35.360
thirty two thirty three years within that worked at Muscatine
1009
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:40.400
High School, Muscatine Middle School. He sees special education. This
1010
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:44.559
guy sees it all and just a ball of laughter
1011
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.760
with and it coming. So I'm I'm looking so forward
1012
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:49.920
to seeing what kind of incitements he has about how
1013
00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:52.360
what we can control is something we can shift and
1014
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:54.920
and maybe something to lead along the way. And I
1015
00:45:55.000 --> 00:45:57.400
believe he's also a doctor Townsley fan too. I mean,
1016
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.519
there's so many of them. Take take a number for
1017
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:05.559
that crew. That's awesome taking numbers right right? Well, good,
1018
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:07.599
So that's February we got. I'll tell you what, It's
1019
00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:09.960
gonna be a busy month. It's gonna fly by, we
1020
00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:12.119
know it does. This year is flown by already. But
1021
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.920
you know, hopefully you still got your your New Year's
1022
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.159
resolutions when we get back here to record again for February,
1023
00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:20.239
and we'll see, we'll see if we're all sitting there
1024
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:20.480
or not.
1025
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.800
But that's that's great. Well, I'll tell you what. Everybody
1026
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:27.280
you can find Matt's work, his book, making grades matter.
1027
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:29.320
We're gonna put all of that stuff in the show
1028
00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:32.559
notes before we go. Real quick though, doctor Townsley, can
1029
00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:34.519
you give us a quick you know, where do we
1030
00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:36.440
find you? On socials? How do our people get in
1031
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.599
touch with you? And if they've got a grating question,
1032
00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:40.960
you're the first person I would be talking to for sure,
1033
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:42.480
So how do they how do they get a hold
1034
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:44.079
of doctor Matt Townsley man?
1035
00:46:44.159 --> 00:46:47.000
Like I said before, all things seniors based grading type
1036
00:46:47.000 --> 00:46:48.400
that in Google, that will get my one of my
1037
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:54.440
websites or just www dot mctownsley dot net, also mc
1038
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.199
towns in all the major socials, blue Sky, Twitter x,
1039
00:46:57.239 --> 00:46:57.920
whatever you want to call it.
1040
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:01.039
These days, all that fun stuff, some message wherever we
1041
00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:01.400
want to do.
1042
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:03.960
Love to connect and you know, reshare your good stuff
1043
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:05.480
going on your school too. I think that's one of
1044
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:07.760
the awesome things about social media is you know, seeing
1045
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:09.480
the good stuff that Jim's doing out there, You're seeing
1046
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.800
the good stuff that you know somebody else doing out
1047
00:47:11.800 --> 00:47:13.920
there and giving them a high five on social media.
1048
00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.880
So mctowns dot net or mc townsy on the socials
1049
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:17.679
love it.
1050
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:20.400
I love it, I love it. Thanks again, really appreciate
1051
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:21.519
you being on here tonight.
1052
00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:22.360
Jim.
1053
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:25.360
Thanks to you again. Good to see it listeners. Thanks
1054
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:27.960
for joining us on Control Shift Lead. Go out there
1055
00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.920
and make a difference everybody. We really appreciate it. Good
1056
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.880
have a great January. We'll see you back here in February.
1057
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:41.920
You've been listening to Control Shift Lead, brought to you
1058
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:49.639
by Inspired Edification and AWB Education. We're glad you joined
1059
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:54.559
us for today's discussion on empowering school leadership. To dive
1060
00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:58.119
deeper and explore more of Jim and Adam's work, find
1061
00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:06.000
us at www dot AWB education dot org. Thanks for listening.
1062
00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:09.159
We look forward to connecting with you again soon