Strategic Partner - Building Trust without Authority

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Foreign welcome to the
Consulting for Humans podcast.
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You're with Ian and with Mike,
and in each episode of the show,
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we are exploring a new topic
that gets to the heart of what makes
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consultants happy and successful.
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On the Consulting for Humans
podcast, it's our mission to add
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just a little more humanity to
the lives of consultants.
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And we'd love to bring some of
the skills and perspectives of consulting
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to human lives, too.
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So, and this is especially
important today, if you're a consultant
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who's trying to be more of a
human or pay attention, a human who's
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trying to be more of a
consultant, then we think you are
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just our kind of person.
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And have we got a show for.
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For you?
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Absolutely right, Ian.
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At all of our episodes to
date, we've really focused on what
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makes consultants happy and
successful as promised, but we haven't
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cashed the check on the other
half of that promise.
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We haven't touched on bringing
some of the skills and perspectives
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of consulting to human lives, too.
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I think anybody that's been
listening has picked up on some of
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that.
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But today we're going to start
a specific series of episodes targeted
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towards humans of all kinds of
who could benefit from some of the
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skills and perspectives of consulting.
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That's right.
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And we're particularly
interested in humans of the kind
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who are holding down a regular
job like a proper job.
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Consulting is not a proper job.
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Maybe you work in a big
organization, maybe you work for
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the government or a charity.
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Maybe you have your own kind
of problems to solve, your own kind
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of relationships to foster.
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If you want to become more of
a strategic partner to the people
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that are around you, that then
we think we can help.
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We think this show is going to
be right up your street.
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So, Mike, let's dig into this
a little bit here.
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What kind of people might we
be talking about?
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Well, I think internal
business professionals who find themselves
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in advisory capacities or
influence roles who don't have a
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formal consulting background
or training.
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So these people have the same
kind of challenges as external consultants,
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but perhaps lack some of the
things that we're going to go through
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in the upcoming episodes.
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But they do bring a knowledge
of the organization and the people
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and the business and area and
industry expertise that some consultants
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don't have or building.
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So they kind of play mirror
roles to each other.
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And these skills are really
helpful for both sets, these humans
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and these consultant humans.
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Right.
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So we have people trying to be
consultant, like, within their organizations.
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I think we also have, Mike,
people who are just trying to lead
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teams, managers, people who
have Direct reports, people who are
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individual contributors but
are senior or have some expertise
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to bring.
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These are people like product
managers, people leading cross functional
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teams, people in functions
like HR who have to give advice to
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leadership on organizational changes.
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These might be, for example,
finance professionals influencing
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budget decisions, anybody who
needs to diagnose a problem, spot
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a potential opportunity, get a
coalition of stakeholders bought
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into the idea and drive some change.
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Not only those people, but
maybe also the people who aspire
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to be those people.
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If you're looking to influence
change and move around and have an
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impact in your organization,
we think some of the things that
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we have to talk about today
could be a catalyst for your success.
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Absolutely.
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And Ian, when I hear you say
that, it brings immediately to mind
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project managers and program managers.
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Oh yeah, these people have to
do this every day, Understand complex
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organizational dynamics,
manage multiple stakeholders with
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competing interests and
deliver results through influence
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rather than direct authority.
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So I think we're going to
touch on that today.
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We're really going to get even
more deeply into that moving forward.
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So a key skill that goes
across and some additional skills
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that will build on this
foundational one.
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Great, Mike.
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And this is a potentially very
broad topic, so we've broken it down
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a little bit.
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I mean, let's see how the
topic takes us.
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Who knows where we'll end up.
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It might end up being a 17
episode kind of, but we'll see.
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We've got four big ideas that
we want to cover in four episodes
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at least.
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To start with episode one,
that's today, we want to talk about
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trust and building trust
without authority because internal
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advisors, people who are
trying to give technical advice,
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for example, can gain
credibility, can navigate organizational
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politics and influence
decisions even when they don't have
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formal power.
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And we want to talk a little
bit about how important that is and
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how we can cultivate some more
of it.
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Second Mike, we want to talk
in the episode coming next week about
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the mindset of the internal advisor.
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We've been looking at how lots
of professionals are actually doing
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consultative work without
realizing it.
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But how do you know it when
you see it?
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How do you cultivate more of it?
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How do you make it better somehow?
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We're going to be talking
about a model, a framework for thinking
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this through.
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That mindset is all about what
we call the strategic partner pyramid
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model.
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That's going to be next week.
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Nice.
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And then, Ian, a key skill
throughout that pyramid is asking
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better questions.
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This foundational skill of
moving from answer giving to question
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asking and better problem
diagnosis and then even promoting
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more thinking.
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Oh yes, Then what else?
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How are we going to round this off?
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Mike?
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Yeah, I think at least in this
first series of episodes, around
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the topic.
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You know, we're gonna go back
to an old Stephen Coveyism, you know,
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the idea of understanding
before seeking to be understood.
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Covey would say, but we're
talking about that same thing.
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And here we're gonna break
that down, not just to kind of Covey's
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sense of active listening, but
problem, diagnosis, opportunity,
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identification, systematically
identifying root causes and consequences.
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Right, Mike?
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It's funny.
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I think that episode four
stuff is what people classically
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think of as nerdy consulting skills.
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And I'm really excited that's
actually coming last in our series.
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That doesn't mean that it's
not important, but we've been thinking
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about this a lot and we've
been talking about it and reading
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about it, and there are other
things besides logical purity and
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intellectual independence that
make value for us when we're trying
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to be more consultative.
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So I'm super happy that we're
going in this order and not the other
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way.
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So I think we're nearly ready
to get into it.
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Mike?
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Yeah.
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Now, Ian, if I'm a consultant,
should I skip this episode?
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It is a really good question.
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We hope not.
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We hope not, partly because
you've had 24, 25 episodes already
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of our love and attention, and
you can give a little bit of love
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and attention back.
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But more seriously, we're
going to take a fresh look at influence.
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We're going to take a fresh
look at trust and relationship building.
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That's probably going to be a
bigger and a more long term perspective.
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We're going to dig into
problem solving in a very pragmatic
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way.
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Who doesn't need some more of
those things?
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And by the way, we're talking
about your clients here.
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If you're a consultant who's
charging by the hour, who doesn't
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need a little bit more empathy
for their clients, all right, Just
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stick around, stay in the conversation.
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I think you might enjoy it.
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Absolutely.
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You know, as consultants are
thinking about their clients, all
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you other humans out there
tuning in here, you're thinking about
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your key stakeholders and the
same applies and how we do this.
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So let's get into it.
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Right, Mike?
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Now, first of all, I want to
talk about why this all might become
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important.
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Why is it that this balance of
influence and trust and authority
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becomes so important for us?
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Surely we can all influence to
the extent that we have facts on
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our side.
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Surely if we have a little bit
of charisma, that's okay, but you
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know, being kind of effusive
and influential is something for
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very senior people or for very
charismatic people, I don't think
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so.
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Influencing skills are important.
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Not just as consultants might
say, influencing by producing great
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PowerPoint slides, but
influencing by having the confidence
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to jump into a situation,
having the confidence to jump in
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with an outside perspective,
even a non expert perspective.
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And that by the way, is one of
the features of a classical consultant
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that we think we'd like to
explore and expand here.
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Confidence is key, but
building that confidence is hard
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for some of us.
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We've got valuable expertise.
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For example, I might be
functionally very, very expert in
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my particular sub discipline
of marketing or of it, but having
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valuable expertise on its own
doesn't always get translated into
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organizational influence and
career advancement.
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So if you're listening to the
show and you have ever provided answers
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to your colleagues technical
questions, only to see the answers
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somehow get lost or the
questions come up over and over again.
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If you've provided
recommendations that seemed to just
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get dropped in the well and be
ignored, if you've ever watched apparently
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less qualified colleagues
advancing faster or gaining influence
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faster, then you might have
some idea of what we're talking about
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here and it might be worth
sticking around.
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Mike it's very common for us,
I think, especially in technical
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or science based organizations
which many of us work in.
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It's very common for us to
believe that trust comes with authority,
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that we are trusted because of
the expertise or the qualifications
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that we have.
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I think trust without
authority isn't just possible, it's
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actually more sustainable,
it's more powerful in the long run.
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Right.
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The credibility that comes
with your resume is important, you
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know, the letters after your name.
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But it's not enough.
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It's an important part of who
you are and why people trust you.
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But on its own it's not enough.
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And I think when people trust
you because of who you are and how
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you operate, then that trust
becomes portable and you can carry
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it with it.
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Mike I can think of lots of
people I've known who have managed
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to build this trust and it's
been the backbone of their career,
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way beyond their technical
knowledge or their technical kind
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of qualifications.
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I agree that certainly holds
true in technical and scientific
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and I think it holds true in
any kind of expert based functional
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area support.
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I mean, whether you're in
finance or HR or medical affairs
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or, I mean, you know, for
every industry you've got these things
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that I think traditionally
we've seen as if you will cost centers
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actually with the right Kind
of perspectives and the tools we're
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talking about as strategic
partners, they become value centers,
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value generating centers.
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And you as an individual are
seen as a value creating person at
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multiple levels in your
organization and for multiple level
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of stakeholders throughout.
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And that's what we're getting
at here.
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And that not just your earned
authority, I mean it's the irs.
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You know, I'm from the IRS and
I'm here to help you.
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Sometimes you can insert your
role in IRS there and everybody has
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that same kind of laugh and
we're saying no, not necessarily.
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So I'm from Strategic
Information Technology and I'm here
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to help you.
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By the way, have you tried
control alt delay?
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Exactly, exactly.
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Yeah, I'm marketing and.
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Right, and the checks in the post.
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Exactly.
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So Mike, let's just round this
thing off about trust.
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I think it's going to be
important for us because without
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trust the questions that we
raise and the answers that we give
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won't be welcomed.
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Our insights won't get heard,
our recommendations won't get implemented
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and that all seems like a waste.
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And we'll.
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Part of this is we're looking
back on the success of people who
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we've seen who have
consistently had their advice listened
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to and seen their questions answered.
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That's why we think this is a
great topic for starting the miniseries
250
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like we said.
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00:12:00,380 --> 00:12:02,620
Yeah, I couldn't agree with
you more, Ian.
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And it's interesting.
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There's this fundamental trust
authority paradox and I've loved
254
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watching people wrestle with
this even inside consulting.
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I mean how many people don't
think of consultants as arrogant
256
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oftentimes?
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Or how many consultants feel
like arrogance is a key secret to
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success.
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And that's a dilemma that's
also faced by our non consultant
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experts, others who are
attempting to work outside the areas
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00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,800
of their domain, but with
others in an attempted resolve to.
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An attempt to resolve this
trust authority paradox here.
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And sometimes this idea that
like I've got to pound on my expertise,
264
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whether it's as a consultant,
whether it's as a functional area
265
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expert, whether it's as a
project manager or program manager
266
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versus what we're going to
talk about now, sometimes those traditional
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approaches backfire, you know, true.
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You know, they kind of lead us
into thinking, well I'm going to
269
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demonstrate my expertise by
having all the answers.
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But people who always have all
the answers actually undermine trust
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building sometimes.
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And when we position ourselves
as the answer person, sometimes we're
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making other people feel
inadequate or we create unrealistic
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expectations about solving
every problem and, and maybe even
275
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More critically, we miss
opportunities to understand deeper
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context as well as political
dynamics and actually just competing
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00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:37,610
interest of various
stakeholders which when recognized
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could actually lead to better
solutions for everybody.
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So there's a thing here that I
want to just pick up on.
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Let's get one sentence out there.
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I don't think that it's true
that nobody likes a smart ass, but
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I think it's true that it's
easy to dislike a smart ass.
283
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And we smartasses should just
kind of take a step back and think
284
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about this.
285
00:13:55,340 --> 00:13:58,300
It's not always an appealing
look being the smartest kid in the
286
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:59,700
room, that's what you're
saying, right?
287
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:00,380
Yeah, right.
288
00:14:00,460 --> 00:14:03,780
Well, and I would say that
it's almost universally true, not,
289
00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:07,900
sorry, Jane Austen, that you
know, nobody thinks as much of a
290
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:09,980
smart ass as a smart ass
thinks of themselves.
291
00:14:10,060 --> 00:14:10,780
Yeah, right.
292
00:14:11,180 --> 00:14:14,020
Although I don't know, maybe
some of those are being a smartass
293
00:14:14,020 --> 00:14:15,630
because they don't think as
much of themselves themselves.
294
00:14:15,630 --> 00:14:17,070
But that's a different paradox.
295
00:14:19,230 --> 00:14:23,630
So we don't want to be seen as
people who talk at people rather
296
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:25,550
than that understand them.
297
00:14:26,030 --> 00:14:31,070
When I'm being brought
somebody else's problem and they
298
00:14:31,630 --> 00:14:36,790
think that I can solve that
idea, that I'm going to be there
299
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:39,870
to help them rather than just
the problem.
300
00:14:40,110 --> 00:14:44,810
There's a really important
intersection about showing how we
301
00:14:44,810 --> 00:14:46,770
are here and building that
trust here.
302
00:14:47,250 --> 00:14:50,570
So strategic partners build
trust by caring more about finding
303
00:14:50,570 --> 00:14:56,610
the right solution rather than
proving that they're right themselves.
304
00:14:57,250 --> 00:14:59,530
So they're open to say I don't
know everything.
305
00:14:59,530 --> 00:15:02,290
I can be curious about
unfamiliar perspectives.
306
00:15:02,290 --> 00:15:07,010
I can ask questions that help
others think more clearly, ah, even
307
00:15:07,090 --> 00:15:08,370
make them look smarter.
308
00:15:08,370 --> 00:15:13,300
I can build trust because it
shows respect for all others intelligence
309
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:19,780
and positions while also
genuinely valuing their contribution
310
00:15:19,780 --> 00:15:23,380
to the thinking process, as a
matter of fact becoming kind of the
311
00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:26,860
catalyst that does bring
everybody's best thinking, including
312
00:15:27,100 --> 00:15:31,660
my own, into seizing
opportunities and solving problems.
313
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:35,820
It's a really good one and I
like this idea of again, we're seeing
314
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:37,580
the more long term perspective here.
315
00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:42,410
Being right in the short term
is gratifying, but getting everybody
316
00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:46,010
to a more right answer is
better than getting just myself uniquely
317
00:15:46,010 --> 00:15:48,050
to defend the one what I think
is best right answer.
318
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:50,930
And this is tough for us in
scientifically based businesses.
319
00:15:50,930 --> 00:15:51,170
Right.
320
00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:53,610
You and I worked in a few
different industries, most recently
321
00:15:53,610 --> 00:15:54,690
in the life science industry.
322
00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:57,250
In science based companies.
323
00:15:57,330 --> 00:16:00,970
It's really hard for
scientists to stop demonstrating
324
00:16:00,970 --> 00:16:02,210
the scientific kudos.
325
00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:06,250
And I've seen people be
really, really successful in highly
326
00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:09,290
technical disciplines, in
highly advanced technology based
327
00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:12,350
organizations solely because
they were able to stop taking their
328
00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:13,870
own expertise so seriously.
329
00:16:14,190 --> 00:16:17,830
Yeah, and it was, I can see
career trajectories of people and
330
00:16:17,830 --> 00:16:20,070
people that you and I have
worked with that have been based
331
00:16:20,070 --> 00:16:24,030
on the fact that they've been
much more able to pick up and use
332
00:16:24,430 --> 00:16:26,630
knowledge from the whole team,
from the collective, rather than
333
00:16:26,630 --> 00:16:28,790
insisting on being the one
that has the best knowledge.
334
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:30,670
It's a really fundamental
point, I think.
335
00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:32,270
Absolutely.
336
00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:37,030
Well, Ian, you know, I think
we keep coming around in this trust
337
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:39,110
process and there's, there's
some pillars.
338
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:39,790
Right.
339
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:41,150
I think trust is built upon.
340
00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:42,550
Can you, can you start us in?
341
00:16:42,630 --> 00:16:45,510
I feel a diagram coming on,
but this is audio, so we don't have
342
00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:45,870
a diagram.
343
00:16:45,870 --> 00:16:46,990
We may, we may get one out there.
344
00:16:46,990 --> 00:16:47,510
Who knows?
345
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:50,950
Four pillars for trust without authority.
346
00:16:50,950 --> 00:16:52,790
Four things that we can think
about and work on.
347
00:16:52,950 --> 00:16:55,750
I've got number one here,
Mike, and this is going back to the
348
00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:59,470
point you and I were just
making about where our competence
349
00:16:59,470 --> 00:17:00,790
and where our expertise fits in.
350
00:17:00,790 --> 00:17:03,750
Pillar one is competence that
serves others.
351
00:17:04,380 --> 00:17:06,940
Putting our knowledge to the
work of other people.
352
00:17:07,180 --> 00:17:11,420
And that sounds natural, but
like we said, in some circumstances,
353
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,780
like for example, very highly
science based businesses, it's very
354
00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:17,780
easy to have intellectual pride.
355
00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:19,340
That turns into self orientation.
356
00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:21,340
And you, you were talking
about arrogance before.
357
00:17:22,060 --> 00:17:25,380
Who are good at building trust
are the ones who are good at showing
358
00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:27,260
low self orientation.
359
00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:31,190
They shift from saying look
what I know to, to saying, here's
360
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:33,430
what it is that I know that
could help you succeed.
361
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:36,670
And one of the things that I
notice about those people is that
362
00:17:36,670 --> 00:17:39,790
when someone asks them a
question, they resist jumping in
363
00:17:39,790 --> 00:17:41,110
with a complete answer.
364
00:17:41,670 --> 00:17:45,670
And all the time I'm thinking
of my younger self and sometimes
365
00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:48,150
when I'm not exhibiting much
self control, maybe also my present
366
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:48,750
day self.
367
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:51,390
You know, I'd love to jump in
with a hey, I have a fact for you
368
00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:51,670
here.
369
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:55,910
But in fact, people who are
good at building trust are the ones
370
00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:58,870
that understand the why we've
talked a few times about.
371
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:00,800
Start with why we've talked a
few times about.
372
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,640
Simon Sinek.
373
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:02,520
Here it comes again.
374
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,840
People who are good at this
start by asking why their colleagues
375
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,360
and their stakeholders have questions.
376
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:09,520
What decision are they making?
377
00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,080
What are the constraints that
they're facing?
378
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,520
What does success look like?
379
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,520
Looking for context rather
than seeking to find the place into
380
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,320
the, into which their own
highly specialized knowledge fits.
381
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,120
And I think, Mike, that needs
us to be honest about the boundaries
382
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:25,080
of our expertise as well,
especially expertise about applications.
383
00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:29,010
Acknowledging that you don't
know or acknowledging that your expertise
384
00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:32,050
could work but you've never
seen it applied in this particular
385
00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:32,450
area.
386
00:18:32,850 --> 00:18:37,810
Even better, referring
somebody to somebody else who's got
387
00:18:38,210 --> 00:18:39,970
knowledge that they need
that's not yours.
388
00:18:40,050 --> 00:18:41,730
All of that builds trust.
389
00:18:42,690 --> 00:18:44,330
Let's be empathetic for a minute.
390
00:18:44,330 --> 00:18:46,210
Let's imagine that you're the
person seeking help.
391
00:18:46,530 --> 00:18:51,480
Imagine how much more you'll
trust someone who passes you on with
392
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,400
a positive recommendation to a
better resource compared to another
393
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,360
who might try to claim
expertise and grab onto the problem
394
00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:00,680
for themselves and then try
but fail to deliver.
395
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,600
How differently would you view
those people?
396
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,999
People who try to look smart
face the same problem as people who
397
00:19:06,999 --> 00:19:08,040
try to look cool.
398
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,520
And I'm thinking of myself here.
399
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,080
When a middle aged man tries
to look cool, he doesn't end up looking
400
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,040
cool, he ends up looking ridiculous.
401
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,960
When a person amongst
colleagues tries to be the smartest
402
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,360
one, they don't end up looking smart.
403
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:21,420
And it's better if people see
you as someone who cares about the
404
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:22,100
collective success.
405
00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:27,420
So, Mike, this is an easy
mistake to stumble upon for somebody
406
00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:29,740
who's fresh out of consulting,
coming into a big organization.
407
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:32,420
I think there's a certain
tendency to believe that expertise
408
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:37,740
and knowledge is kind of the
premium currency in certain kinds
409
00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:38,660
of consulting firm.
410
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:41,100
Working in a big organization
where your relationships are more
411
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:43,140
durable and your problems are
more complex.
412
00:19:43,300 --> 00:19:46,080
Actually building trust, I
think is a key thing.
413
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,400
I couldn't agree with you
more, Ian.
414
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,720
And I think part of that trust
too, Pillar two is it comes from
415
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,680
consistency.
416
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,760
You know, if we can build
predictable behavior patterns that
417
00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,240
others can rely upon.
418
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,080
And I loved your idea, Ian,
about, you know, resisting immediately,
419
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,160
providing the most complete
answer, but understanding more.
420
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,960
That's one of those behavior
patterns that says when you interact
421
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,440
with me, you're going to get
this kind of interaction all the
422
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:14,720
time.
423
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:19,520
And it goes beyond just doing
what you say, although that's a really
424
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:20,920
important piece of it.
425
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,360
It also means developing a
recognizable approach to problems
426
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:30,680
and communication and the way
you handle both success and setback.
427
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,240
So like you were saying, Ian,
knowing that it's predictable that
428
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,140
if there is another good
resource, you will either refer them
429
00:20:38,140 --> 00:20:43,620
on or pull them in and
envision some better collaboration
430
00:20:43,620 --> 00:20:45,460
and engender that collaboration.
431
00:20:46,020 --> 00:20:51,060
People need to be able to
predict how you're going to respond
432
00:20:51,140 --> 00:20:52,419
to new challenges.
433
00:20:52,419 --> 00:20:55,860
And I think all of this goes
well when everything's going well.
434
00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:58,260
How does it go when there's a
challenge here?
435
00:20:58,820 --> 00:21:04,120
If we're consistent in values,
in communication style, in problem
436
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:07,400
solving approaches, including
our problem solving approaches, is
437
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,280
to move to a better problem
solving approach.
438
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,560
Not just everything is A nail.
439
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,040
Because all we have is a hammer.
440
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:19,000
They can trust that we're
going to keep our promises during
441
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,240
organizational stress and change.
442
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:22,760
And keeping our promises.
443
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:23,680
Yeah.
444
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,360
Is really, really, really
important here.
445
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,480
And seeing us as somebody who
maintains the same standards for
446
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,680
ourselves that we apply to
others, I think these are.
447
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:37,680
These are all so important.
448
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,040
So, Ian, I think you always
have been so good about this.
449
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:46,240
We can build up people's trust
in us by choosing very judiciously
450
00:21:46,399 --> 00:21:50,960
what commitments we're going
to make and only make the commitments
451
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,000
that we can and will follow up on.
452
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:55,600
So under promise.
453
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:56,400
Overachieve.
454
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,800
Don't over promise and underachieve.
455
00:21:59,400 --> 00:21:59,720
Yeah.
456
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,360
And it's really easy to over promise.
457
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:03,240
You know, I've seen people
kind of bang the table and lean into
458
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,560
the meeting and kind of wave
their finger and say, me and my team,
459
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,040
we are 100% committed to
pulling this through.
460
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,120
And those kind of big promises
are really hard to deliver on.
461
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,999
And when they fall on my ears
or on maybe on the ears of people
462
00:22:14,999 --> 00:22:18,720
who are a bit more jaded, we
think, yeah, what really like, is
463
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,760
that the one thing that you're
going to commit to, Are you going
464
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,040
to mistake your career on that?
465
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,440
People use the idea of commitment.
466
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:26,530
So have you ever seen this in practice?
467
00:22:26,530 --> 00:22:27,810
Who do you know who's good at this?
468
00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:31,290
Well, you know, it's funny, it
reminds me of an old colleague of
469
00:22:31,290 --> 00:22:36,210
ours, Bert von Spransen, down
in Australia back in the day, he
470
00:22:36,370 --> 00:22:43,810
was actually looking at a lot
of advisors and internal and external.
471
00:22:44,050 --> 00:22:47,290
And one thing when he was
listening to a pitch, particularly
472
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:49,610
when it was somebody he was
going to bring in from outside a
473
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:52,610
different part of the
corporation or outside the corporation
474
00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:57,070
is as he was discussing that
he would have a small ask.
475
00:22:58,190 --> 00:23:02,030
And that small ask seemed a
little bit innocuous, but in fact,
476
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:02,430
it was.
477
00:23:02,430 --> 00:23:05,230
His test is, this is somebody
I can rely on.
478
00:23:05,390 --> 00:23:07,590
You know, when we get in, I
mean, this is somebody.
479
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:11,470
Now they're trying to say why
they should be involved in this project.
480
00:23:11,870 --> 00:23:15,510
If they really want this, then
their reliability ought to be as
481
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:17,150
good as I expect it to ever be.
482
00:23:17,310 --> 00:23:20,270
And he would make a little
note and he would ask for this little
483
00:23:20,270 --> 00:23:20,590
thing.
484
00:23:20,590 --> 00:23:24,620
If they said yes and said when
they would get back to him with it,
485
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:26,740
he, you know, he put it in a pile.
486
00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:29,660
He kind of stuck it to come
back to at that date.
487
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:32,140
And if it wasn't there, that
was it.
488
00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:33,820
They didn't cross the first hurdle.
489
00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:38,780
So that reliability and
knowing that you're going to be consistent
490
00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:40,900
is what people are looking for.
491
00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:43,500
Bert certainly Took that to
high levels.
492
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:44,780
Very cool.
493
00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:49,180
So, Mike, pillar one was
competence in the service of others.
494
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:53,270
Pillar two was consistency and
being careful about consistency.
495
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:56,070
Pillar three, I'm going to
come back to the theme of being in
496
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:56,870
the service of others.
497
00:23:56,950 --> 00:24:00,550
There's another really
noticeable trait that successful,
498
00:24:00,790 --> 00:24:04,790
trusted, influential people
have, which is that they are much
499
00:24:04,790 --> 00:24:08,990
better at tying themselves to
organizational success than they
500
00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:11,190
seem to be claiming personal credit.
501
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:14,830
And again, I think in
traditional consulting life, we are
502
00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:18,150
a tiny bit competitive with
each other, and we have metrics and
503
00:24:18,790 --> 00:24:22,630
performance benchmarks that
kind of push us towards demonstrating
504
00:24:22,630 --> 00:24:23,270
our own value.
505
00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:26,710
People in bigger organizations
who can get trust without authority
506
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:30,270
are the ones who are able to
prioritize collective success over
507
00:24:30,270 --> 00:24:31,430
individual recognition.
508
00:24:31,670 --> 00:24:34,669
And I think some people do
this naturally, and I know a few
509
00:24:34,669 --> 00:24:36,710
of those people, and I admire
them and I love them, and that's
510
00:24:36,710 --> 00:24:36,950
great.
511
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:41,190
People who enjoy being a part
of a larger collective endeavor.
512
00:24:41,190 --> 00:24:44,350
Those are the people who were
probably the ones who joined societies
513
00:24:44,350 --> 00:24:46,710
in college, the ones who took
part in team sports.
514
00:24:46,980 --> 00:24:49,700
And it's not just that that's
fun, although it is fun.
515
00:24:49,780 --> 00:24:52,380
It's not just that it's
worthwhile, although it is worthwhile.
516
00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:54,580
Like, it just seems a natural
way to be.
517
00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:57,300
So those people have already
got it going on naturally.
518
00:24:57,540 --> 00:25:00,020
I think some of us have to
work harder at it.
519
00:25:00,820 --> 00:25:05,020
And that means being able to
turn our conversation around to positive
520
00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:07,420
outcomes for the team rather
than positive credit.
521
00:25:07,420 --> 00:25:12,380
For me, that means when
projects face challenges, being the
522
00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:16,290
one who contributes quickly to
a solution rather than being the
523
00:25:16,290 --> 00:25:19,210
one pointing the finger kind
of backwards and diagnosing who was
524
00:25:19,210 --> 00:25:19,650
to blame.
525
00:25:20,290 --> 00:25:24,290
People who are good at
connecting individuals, good at sharing
526
00:25:24,290 --> 00:25:27,770
resources without expecting a
benefit in return are the people
527
00:25:27,770 --> 00:25:28,610
that we're talking about.
528
00:25:29,009 --> 00:25:30,850
This is also probably, Mike.
529
00:25:30,850 --> 00:25:34,210
People who will learn
something or gain some information
530
00:25:34,210 --> 00:25:38,210
or gain some power and not be
quick to turn it to their own advantage.
531
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:41,380
And this sounds a little bit
like being kind of holier than the
532
00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:41,620
Pope.
533
00:25:41,620 --> 00:25:43,740
This sounds like being kind of
an ethically pure person.
534
00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:46,420
I don't think of any of the
people I know who do this as ethically
535
00:25:46,420 --> 00:25:46,900
pure.
536
00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:50,220
I think these are just people
who have naturally got an orientation
537
00:25:50,220 --> 00:25:51,260
toward a collective.
538
00:25:51,420 --> 00:25:52,700
It's not difficult to do.
539
00:25:52,780 --> 00:25:56,060
The payback is in the medium
to long term rather than the short
540
00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:56,300
term.
541
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:57,740
But for sure, there's a
payback there.
542
00:25:58,060 --> 00:26:02,940
Yeah, we're not talking about,
again, having no boundaries, about
543
00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:03,740
taking on everything.
544
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:05,900
That's not at all what we're
saying here.
545
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,120
You know, it's exactly what
you said, Ian.
546
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:11,800
You know, caring a little less
about personal credit and more about
547
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:16,040
organizational success and
helping to create that success.
548
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,680
It's like the old, I remember
kind of watching over the years the
549
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:26,520
change in resumes, you know,
from here's what why I'm great to
550
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,520
here's what I've been a part
of accomplishing and that, you know,
551
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:31,640
that says it all.
552
00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:34,036
Not here's why I'm great, but
here's what I've been a part of accomplishing
553
00:26:35,360 --> 00:27:34,316
here.
554
00:27:34,476 --> 00:27:39,776
And our last pillar, Ian,
curiosity about what you don't yet
555
00:27:40,016 --> 00:27:40,416
understand.
556
00:27:41,296 --> 00:27:44,256
And I love this, I love this
because part of this goes back to
557
00:27:44,256 --> 00:27:46,976
we talked about, you know, how
you operate in a challenge.
558
00:27:46,976 --> 00:27:50,256
And I think sometimes in a
challenge, like you said, you know,
559
00:27:50,256 --> 00:27:51,536
we could be placing blame.
560
00:27:51,856 --> 00:27:54,896
Sometimes we're also in a
challenge, placing a lot of blame
561
00:27:54,976 --> 00:27:58,416
on ourselves and going, oh my
gosh, you know, oh God.
562
00:27:59,136 --> 00:28:03,836
As opposed to, hey, I'm all
about learning what I don't yet understand.
563
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:07,916
I want to show genuine
curiosity about perspectives, about
564
00:28:07,996 --> 00:28:08,716
challenges.
565
00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:09,796
What do we learn from that?
566
00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:10,716
What do I learn from that?
567
00:28:10,716 --> 00:28:15,436
What do I needs work about
context outside my current understanding.
568
00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:17,996
And now this curiosity has to
be authentic.
569
00:28:17,996 --> 00:28:21,276
I mean, there's a number of
people that, you know, kind of, oh,
570
00:28:21,276 --> 00:28:24,436
tell me all about, because
this is a script that I go into and
571
00:28:24,436 --> 00:28:27,396
then I just delete that from
short term memory and go into the
572
00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:28,716
pitch I intended to come with.
573
00:28:29,476 --> 00:28:32,836
But there are, you know,
people have the ability to sense
574
00:28:32,836 --> 00:28:35,956
the difference between genuine
interest and manipulation.
575
00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:42,756
So real curiosity also means
accepting challenges to my own assumptions,
576
00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:47,316
modifying recommendations that
perhaps I'm making or thinking about
577
00:28:47,316 --> 00:28:51,276
making based on new
information, asking questions, as
578
00:28:51,276 --> 00:28:54,756
you said earlier, Ian, even
when perhaps we think we already
579
00:28:54,916 --> 00:29:00,236
know that the answers, and
seeking out conversations with people
580
00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:04,476
who see things differently
rather than only those who agree
581
00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:04,996
with you.
582
00:29:05,156 --> 00:29:09,516
And in conversations, picking
up and going deeper with that, rather
583
00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:13,156
than being so close to say, oh
yeah, I went there.
584
00:29:13,156 --> 00:29:14,196
Oh yeah, I've done that.
585
00:29:14,196 --> 00:29:15,236
Oh, we share this.
586
00:29:15,236 --> 00:29:16,676
Oh yeah, I agree with that.
587
00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:20,276
You know, it's like, also,
let's find out what else, because
588
00:29:20,756 --> 00:29:24,836
I'm curious and there's
learning and all of that will contribute
589
00:29:24,836 --> 00:29:26,036
to better outcomes.
590
00:29:26,426 --> 00:29:27,066
Absolutely.
591
00:29:27,546 --> 00:29:30,786
This is something that I think
is different from some of the traditional
592
00:29:30,786 --> 00:29:32,746
mindsets that I've seen in big organizations.
593
00:29:32,746 --> 00:29:36,786
Again, big, especially
complex, highly regulated organizations.
594
00:29:36,786 --> 00:29:40,226
Lots of organizations
systematize what they do.
595
00:29:40,226 --> 00:29:43,226
And there are procedures and
there are processes and there is
596
00:29:43,226 --> 00:29:43,786
compliance.
597
00:29:44,666 --> 00:29:47,746
I'm not advocating ignoring
compliance, but I am saying that
598
00:29:47,746 --> 00:29:51,186
having the mindset that says,
I will follow the blue line all the
599
00:29:51,186 --> 00:29:55,126
Way through my working week is
great because it protects us from
600
00:29:55,126 --> 00:29:57,326
risks and it keeps us safe in
lots of ways.
601
00:29:57,486 --> 00:29:59,566
But it also stops us being curious.
602
00:29:59,646 --> 00:30:02,006
Like having a standard
operating procedure makes you kind
603
00:30:02,006 --> 00:30:03,006
of anti curious.
604
00:30:03,566 --> 00:30:05,086
It makes you undistractable.
605
00:30:05,246 --> 00:30:08,725
And to be curious, you need to
be willing to indulge for a short
606
00:30:08,725 --> 00:30:11,006
while in your working day in a
bit of distraction.
607
00:30:11,006 --> 00:30:14,966
So I think in ingraining a bit
of curiosity into ourselves is a
608
00:30:14,966 --> 00:30:18,686
really great fourth pillar for
our model here.
609
00:30:18,686 --> 00:30:19,726
So we've got four pillars.
610
00:30:19,996 --> 00:30:21,356
Just let me just catch up.
611
00:30:21,676 --> 00:30:24,916
Competence in the service of
others, consistency in the way we
612
00:30:24,916 --> 00:30:27,876
interact with people,
attaching less to personal credit
613
00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:31,196
and more to organizational
success, and then being curious about
614
00:30:31,196 --> 00:30:32,396
the stuff that we don't know about.
615
00:30:32,796 --> 00:30:35,156
These are great models for a mantra.
616
00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:38,516
If I was going to have a mug
made about being trusted without
617
00:30:38,516 --> 00:30:40,476
authority, these would be the
bullet points on the mug.
618
00:30:40,476 --> 00:30:43,236
But Mike, you know, I like to
talk about the dark side.
619
00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:44,796
You know, I like to think
about the downsides.
620
00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:47,396
Let's think for a minute about
what are the mistakes that could
621
00:30:47,396 --> 00:30:48,156
come in the way.
622
00:30:48,556 --> 00:30:53,156
What are the pitfalls that we
might need to avoid before we get
623
00:30:53,156 --> 00:30:53,996
started doing this?
624
00:30:54,476 --> 00:30:57,836
Yeah, you do a great thing
from time to time about what are
625
00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:01,756
you going to tell Fred, kind
of if you're trying to learn something
626
00:31:01,756 --> 00:31:02,716
new and do something?
627
00:31:02,796 --> 00:31:06,836
Well, take whatever you're
summing up and pretending that you're
628
00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:09,676
trying to tell person exactly
what not to do.
629
00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:12,836
And maybe that kind of leads
us in our pitfalls that are sometimes
630
00:31:12,836 --> 00:31:15,996
just mirror reflections
partially of what we've talked about.
631
00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:18,586
So, you know, we first pitfall
the expertise trap.
632
00:31:18,586 --> 00:31:20,666
Of course, you know, makes
sense from what we've been talking
633
00:31:20,666 --> 00:31:20,986
about.
634
00:31:21,146 --> 00:31:22,666
That's never been a problem
for me, of course.
635
00:31:22,746 --> 00:31:24,826
Yeah, you and me both, right?
636
00:31:24,906 --> 00:31:27,906
I'm so focused on
demonstrating competence that we
637
00:31:27,906 --> 00:31:32,106
might make others feel
inadequate or just excluded here.
638
00:31:32,346 --> 00:31:37,306
And you know, manifestations
can be things like overly comprehensive
639
00:31:37,386 --> 00:31:43,146
answers to simple questions or
technical language or jargon that
640
00:31:43,146 --> 00:31:45,516
others don't understand or.
641
00:31:45,746 --> 00:31:48,266
Or, you know, I can't ring
this bell often enough.
642
00:31:48,266 --> 00:31:53,586
We have jumping to solutions
without understanding context, you
643
00:31:53,586 --> 00:31:57,146
know, sometimes not even
letting the person get the whole
644
00:31:57,146 --> 00:31:59,906
thing out of their mouth
before you say, I've got the answer
645
00:31:59,906 --> 00:32:00,266
to that.
646
00:32:00,266 --> 00:32:00,626
Right.
647
00:32:01,026 --> 00:32:06,626
You know, our goal is to help
others succeed in ways that are impossible
648
00:32:07,506 --> 00:32:09,506
without our involvement.
649
00:32:09,666 --> 00:32:13,586
Let me underscore that our
goal is to help others succeed in
650
00:32:13,586 --> 00:32:17,496
ways that are not possible
without our involvement.
651
00:32:18,216 --> 00:32:24,136
It's not impressing them with
our knowledge or expertise or all
652
00:32:24,136 --> 00:32:29,496
of our lineage or our title or
our degrees or letters after our
653
00:32:29,496 --> 00:32:29,976
names.
654
00:32:30,456 --> 00:32:36,416
So shorter targeted answers,
follow up questions explaining thinking
655
00:32:36,416 --> 00:32:38,136
in an accessible language.
656
00:32:38,296 --> 00:32:42,556
Once we understand that bigger
picture and the problem or opportunity
657
00:32:42,556 --> 00:32:46,716
in the context that is the way
out of the expertise trap.
658
00:32:47,196 --> 00:32:47,996
That's great.
659
00:32:48,796 --> 00:32:51,476
That's meat and drink for
anybody who's got even the slightest
660
00:32:51,476 --> 00:32:52,956
tendency to be proud of their
own expertise.
661
00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:53,236
Mike.
662
00:32:53,236 --> 00:32:53,916
I think that's great.
663
00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:57,716
There's another trap, and this
one's a paradox.
664
00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:00,116
And I like the idea of
paradoxes because they imply that
665
00:33:00,116 --> 00:33:01,476
we need some thought and some judgment.
666
00:33:01,476 --> 00:33:01,636
Right.
667
00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:03,876
It's not obvious which side we
land on here.
668
00:33:03,876 --> 00:33:07,046
And the paradox is called the
people pleasing paradox.
669
00:33:07,366 --> 00:33:10,406
So we did say a few minutes
ago that we can't build trust by
670
00:33:10,406 --> 00:33:11,686
always trying to be right.
671
00:33:11,846 --> 00:33:13,366
I think it was even me that
said it.
672
00:33:14,246 --> 00:33:18,926
We also, though, face trust
problems when we try to build trust
673
00:33:18,926 --> 00:33:20,886
by just saying yes to
everybody else.
674
00:33:21,766 --> 00:33:24,926
So it seemed like an easy out
from being too much like an expert
675
00:33:24,926 --> 00:33:26,886
is just to agree with what
everybody else says.
676
00:33:26,886 --> 00:33:28,606
But that's lazy as well.
677
00:33:28,606 --> 00:33:29,766
And I think it tends to.
678
00:33:29,766 --> 00:33:33,326
Tends to show us avoiding
conflict, especially conflict that
679
00:33:33,326 --> 00:33:34,836
could be constructive or can
be healthy.
680
00:33:35,546 --> 00:33:39,386
People will tend not to trust
us if we never have a challenging
681
00:33:39,386 --> 00:33:43,346
thought, if we never say
something that they might not want
682
00:33:43,346 --> 00:33:43,706
to hear.
683
00:33:44,906 --> 00:33:49,306
People who get trusted are
those who care enough to raise difficult
684
00:33:49,306 --> 00:33:53,226
questions, to point out risks
and propose alternatives.
685
00:33:53,386 --> 00:33:55,706
And I like this idea of caring enough.
686
00:33:56,106 --> 00:33:59,426
That's a really, really good
benchmark to be around and respected
687
00:33:59,426 --> 00:34:01,906
and trusted in your
profession, in the organization where
688
00:34:01,906 --> 00:34:05,346
you are not just next quarter,
but next year and five years from
689
00:34:05,346 --> 00:34:09,406
now, you'll be, because you're
the one who cared enough to raise
690
00:34:09,406 --> 00:34:12,086
interesting new questions and
to be around to help solve them,
691
00:34:12,246 --> 00:34:16,406
rather than just passively
turn yourself as a cog in the machine
692
00:34:16,726 --> 00:34:17,286
gone.
693
00:34:17,686 --> 00:34:18,886
That was quite poetic.
694
00:34:19,446 --> 00:34:21,126
Yeah, there you go.
695
00:34:21,766 --> 00:34:23,926
Speaking of machines, the next
one's about reciprocity.
696
00:34:23,926 --> 00:34:26,766
I'm sure we can get a machine
metaphor going with the next one.
697
00:34:26,766 --> 00:34:28,646
What's our next pitfall here, Mike?
698
00:34:29,126 --> 00:34:30,526
Yeah, I think that there's.
699
00:34:30,526 --> 00:34:33,126
It's this desire to.
700
00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:37,756
For some people to build
relationships that have explicit
701
00:34:37,756 --> 00:34:42,876
expectations of immediate
reciprocal benefits, almost transactional.
702
00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:47,156
Or the thing that everything
that I do comes with and you owe
703
00:34:47,156 --> 00:34:49,036
me and you owe me bigger.
704
00:34:49,595 --> 00:34:53,636
That this is this big debt
thing, that when helpfulness always
705
00:34:53,636 --> 00:34:58,036
comes with strings attached,
it undermines rather than builds
706
00:34:58,036 --> 00:34:58,556
trust.
707
00:34:58,636 --> 00:35:02,556
I mean, I think one thing we
can say about all trust is that trust,
708
00:35:03,266 --> 00:35:06,386
it's almost like kind of
having a reservoir of trust.
709
00:35:06,386 --> 00:35:11,466
And we Start by, you know,
these little rainfalls that add to
710
00:35:11,466 --> 00:35:13,826
a reservoir or start to build
a reservoir.
711
00:35:13,906 --> 00:35:17,546
But there's some things that
we can do that like blow a hole in
712
00:35:17,546 --> 00:35:19,226
the side of the dam and just.
713
00:35:19,226 --> 00:35:21,186
We drain a lot of trust all at once.
714
00:35:21,266 --> 00:35:24,866
So if we're always having
strings attached, that's one of those
715
00:35:24,866 --> 00:35:25,186
things.
716
00:35:25,346 --> 00:35:30,606
If we create just purely
transactional relationships and then
717
00:35:30,606 --> 00:35:32,846
people are always wondering,
so what are you going to want from
718
00:35:32,846 --> 00:35:33,006
me?
719
00:35:33,006 --> 00:35:33,926
What do you want from them?
720
00:35:33,926 --> 00:35:34,166
What?
721
00:35:34,166 --> 00:35:34,646
You know, what?
722
00:35:35,126 --> 00:35:38,246
So to the degree that we can
contribute to other success without
723
00:35:38,246 --> 00:35:42,326
keeping score, while, as we
said earlier, maintaining appropriate
724
00:35:42,406 --> 00:35:47,806
boundaries, we can operate
from this genuine idea that, you
725
00:35:47,806 --> 00:35:51,286
know, what, if we're
collaborating, if we're building
726
00:35:51,286 --> 00:35:55,726
trust, we start, you know,
that reciprocity will be built in
727
00:35:55,726 --> 00:36:00,116
of its own and of our
relationships and collaboration and
728
00:36:00,116 --> 00:36:02,996
the other things that we're
going to talk about, not on a need
729
00:36:02,996 --> 00:36:04,796
to keep score all the time.
730
00:36:05,516 --> 00:36:11,556
Valuable relationships,
valuable contributions, trust, even
731
00:36:11,556 --> 00:36:14,956
better relationships will
continue to create opportunities
732
00:36:14,956 --> 00:36:17,996
over time and again with
appropriate boundaries.
733
00:36:17,996 --> 00:36:23,556
If, if we've got that person
that we find is always coming and
734
00:36:23,556 --> 00:36:27,716
then, you know, ideas aren't
being used or they're being misappropriated
735
00:36:27,716 --> 00:36:30,486
or something else is going on
or whole different conversation.
736
00:36:30,806 --> 00:36:34,166
Now we're just looking to
build that upward spiral with others
737
00:36:34,166 --> 00:36:37,126
who are looking to do it too
and who start to become part of that.
738
00:36:37,446 --> 00:36:38,806
And like, I've learned
something here.
739
00:36:38,806 --> 00:36:42,006
I now realize that giving my
kids Christmas gifts with the receipts,
740
00:36:42,006 --> 00:36:44,286
with the bill and the invoice
amount tucked into the wrapping,
741
00:36:44,286 --> 00:36:46,086
turns out that was a bad idea
after all.
742
00:36:46,326 --> 00:36:48,566
I just thought I was giving
them a gentle hint, you know, about
743
00:36:48,566 --> 00:36:50,006
what I'm expecting in my old age.
744
00:36:50,326 --> 00:36:53,446
Turns out I should have been
giving without counting the cost.
745
00:36:53,446 --> 00:36:54,326
You're absolutely right.
746
00:36:54,886 --> 00:36:55,606
Too fun.
747
00:36:56,666 --> 00:36:57,026
It's great.
748
00:36:57,026 --> 00:36:59,746
We've talked about our four
pillars for success.
749
00:36:59,746 --> 00:37:03,706
We've talked about some of the
pitfalls around reciprocity and around
750
00:37:03,706 --> 00:37:04,426
people pleasing.
751
00:37:05,146 --> 00:37:08,306
Let's try and bring this all
together and wrap it up by talking
752
00:37:08,306 --> 00:37:11,866
about exercises, by talking
about habit changes that we and our
753
00:37:11,866 --> 00:37:16,026
listeners can all try if we
want to get better at building trust
754
00:37:16,106 --> 00:37:17,146
without authority.
755
00:37:24,096 --> 00:37:26,576
So, Mike, I'd like to go first
because I really like this one.
756
00:37:26,576 --> 00:37:27,696
I've been thinking about this.
757
00:37:28,176 --> 00:37:32,096
I'm very, very aware that most
of my weaknesses are about my habits.
758
00:37:32,096 --> 00:37:34,616
And I'm very, very aware of
the great progress that I make when
759
00:37:34,616 --> 00:37:36,736
I make a small change in my habits.
760
00:37:36,976 --> 00:37:40,816
And this is a habit that we
call the weekly trust audit.
761
00:37:40,816 --> 00:37:43,736
And it says every you choose
when in the week.
762
00:37:43,736 --> 00:37:46,416
I think Friday afternoon is a
good time because this is about looking
763
00:37:46,416 --> 00:37:47,136
back on the week.
764
00:37:47,536 --> 00:37:51,506
Spend 50 minutes not only
journaling, however you might normally
765
00:37:51,506 --> 00:37:51,786
journal.
766
00:37:51,946 --> 00:37:54,426
But just review the
interactions that you've had with
767
00:37:54,426 --> 00:37:57,786
other people and review them
from the perspective of trust building.
768
00:37:57,946 --> 00:38:00,706
So think about significant
conversations that you've had and
769
00:38:00,706 --> 00:38:02,666
ask yourself these questions.
770
00:38:03,066 --> 00:38:06,826
How much did you demonstrate
competence serving the other person's
771
00:38:06,826 --> 00:38:10,266
goals versus how much did you
merely showcase your knowledge?
772
00:38:10,586 --> 00:38:13,106
So how much were you putting
your knowledge to their service?
773
00:38:13,106 --> 00:38:15,866
And how much of it were you
kind of polishing your reputation?
774
00:38:17,396 --> 00:38:19,636
Think about how you responded
to their requests.
775
00:38:19,636 --> 00:38:23,036
Were your responses consistent
with similar situations like have
776
00:38:23,036 --> 00:38:27,756
you demonstrating reliability
and consistency in your responses
777
00:38:27,756 --> 00:38:29,236
to the ask that they brought
to you?
778
00:38:29,476 --> 00:38:30,276
Were you curious?
779
00:38:30,276 --> 00:38:31,396
Did you ask questions?
780
00:38:31,396 --> 00:38:34,996
Did you uncover aspects that
you hadn't previously fully understood?
781
00:38:35,316 --> 00:38:37,556
Did you try and free yourself
from existing assumptions?
782
00:38:37,636 --> 00:38:41,356
Or were you looking for ways
in which this ask is the same as
783
00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:42,836
last week's was the same as
the week before?
784
00:38:43,736 --> 00:38:47,176
And if you're going to think
about those aspects of your interaction,
785
00:38:47,656 --> 00:38:50,416
how do you think you came
across to the others that you're
786
00:38:50,416 --> 00:38:50,856
working with?
787
00:38:50,856 --> 00:38:53,496
You could even ask them for
some feedback.
788
00:38:54,936 --> 00:38:58,056
So keep a bit of a log of observations.
789
00:38:58,056 --> 00:39:00,656
You're not looking to log the
fact that you're perfect.
790
00:39:00,656 --> 00:39:04,056
You're looking for patterns
that will help you find ways in which
791
00:39:04,216 --> 00:39:07,256
you can expand your trust
building ability.
792
00:39:07,576 --> 00:39:11,056
And that can include noticing
the way that you ask questions and
793
00:39:11,056 --> 00:39:14,016
reflect knowledge and credit
and so on.
794
00:39:14,016 --> 00:39:17,176
This can also include noticing
the positive consequences that you
795
00:39:17,176 --> 00:39:18,976
get from other people's
responses to you.
796
00:39:19,216 --> 00:39:23,256
And a bit of weekly practice I
think is worth 15 minutes to make
797
00:39:23,256 --> 00:39:26,616
you more intentional and more
alert to where trust building might
798
00:39:26,616 --> 00:39:27,056
come in.
799
00:39:27,535 --> 00:39:31,016
So Mike, that was my idea for
a weekly trust audit.
800
00:39:31,016 --> 00:39:31,936
A bit of reflection.
801
00:39:32,336 --> 00:39:35,616
What else could we work on
here to help build our trust growing
802
00:39:35,696 --> 00:39:36,256
capabilities?
803
00:39:37,216 --> 00:39:40,656
I know one that I'm still
working on is the Question first
804
00:39:40,656 --> 00:39:41,856
response framework.
805
00:39:42,236 --> 00:39:47,116
And I'm going to take this
advice because I find myself remembering
806
00:39:47,116 --> 00:39:49,036
always to say, oh gosh, I hate that.
807
00:39:49,036 --> 00:39:51,596
I always don't do that.
808
00:39:51,836 --> 00:39:57,276
From now on, lead every
significant interaction with a question
809
00:39:57,835 --> 00:40:03,316
rather than an answer, even
when you know or think you know exactly
810
00:40:03,316 --> 00:40:04,636
what they need to hear.
811
00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:07,196
So try for two weeks.
812
00:40:07,526 --> 00:40:10,006
You know, some people say it
takes longer to build a habit, but
813
00:40:10,006 --> 00:40:10,686
just try it.
814
00:40:10,686 --> 00:40:11,446
Just try it.
815
00:40:11,606 --> 00:40:15,686
When somebody asks your
opinion, start by asking something
816
00:40:15,686 --> 00:40:18,326
like what specific decision
they're making.
817
00:40:18,806 --> 00:40:23,366
You know, when somebody asks
about a problem or brings you a problem
818
00:40:23,446 --> 00:40:26,326
there, ask what They've tried already.
819
00:40:26,726 --> 00:40:31,846
And what constraints exist
when somebody just is sharing information,
820
00:40:32,886 --> 00:40:36,886
ask about their concerns or
opportunities that they see related
821
00:40:36,966 --> 00:40:37,766
to this information.
822
00:40:38,876 --> 00:40:41,596
And then as you had said, Ian,
I think this is brilliant.
823
00:40:41,596 --> 00:40:43,036
I think we could do the same
thing here.
824
00:40:43,276 --> 00:40:48,276
Track how these question first
interactions differ from typical
825
00:40:48,276 --> 00:40:49,036
responses.
826
00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:50,476
Are people more engaged?
827
00:40:50,476 --> 00:40:52,236
Do they provide more context?
828
00:40:53,036 --> 00:40:58,236
If you are then moving on to
give advice or recommendations, are
829
00:40:58,236 --> 00:41:01,436
they better received than typical?
830
00:41:01,596 --> 00:41:03,276
So just what happens?
831
00:41:03,276 --> 00:41:03,956
What happens?
832
00:41:03,956 --> 00:41:09,206
And it starts to get us in
that position of noticing what happens
833
00:41:09,206 --> 00:41:11,446
before what happens.
834
00:41:12,646 --> 00:41:15,966
So you know, we're starting to
see what are the causes, consequences,
835
00:41:15,966 --> 00:41:18,846
the linked on downstream
effects of the things that we do
836
00:41:18,846 --> 00:41:19,846
and how they do them.
837
00:41:20,006 --> 00:41:23,126
But again, what's exercise
number three?
838
00:41:23,686 --> 00:41:26,446
Exercise number three, I'm
going to call it the stakeholder
839
00:41:26,446 --> 00:41:30,086
success story idea 3S's
stakeholder success story.
840
00:41:31,126 --> 00:41:32,846
Identify some regular colleagues.
841
00:41:32,846 --> 00:41:33,846
Let's go for three.
842
00:41:35,726 --> 00:41:39,486
Three colleagues who you think
see you as a provider of answers
843
00:41:40,126 --> 00:41:42,286
rather than any kind of
strategic partner.
844
00:41:42,286 --> 00:41:46,886
People who see you as the one
to go to for the data dump, the Excel
845
00:41:46,886 --> 00:41:50,366
sheet, the factual yes or no,
the list of bullet points.
846
00:41:51,806 --> 00:41:54,606
Try going back to those three
people and ask them.
847
00:41:55,246 --> 00:41:59,086
Or if you can't ask, look
really hard to see what you can infer
848
00:41:59,086 --> 00:42:00,846
from their context and their actions.
849
00:42:01,196 --> 00:42:04,276
Find out what success looks
like from their perspective when
850
00:42:04,276 --> 00:42:08,396
they're asking for these
apparently medial, apparently low
851
00:42:08,396 --> 00:42:09,556
level data questions.
852
00:42:09,556 --> 00:42:10,476
What are their challenges?
853
00:42:10,476 --> 00:42:13,596
What support would be most
valuable if you can find a way then
854
00:42:13,596 --> 00:42:17,516
in the coming month just to
give a little bit more than the answer
855
00:42:17,516 --> 00:42:20,316
to the question, contribute
something to their success.
856
00:42:20,396 --> 00:42:24,396
Not more data and not more
evidence, not necessarily even more
857
00:42:24,396 --> 00:42:29,076
explanation, but some way of
connecting them with resources, a
858
00:42:29,076 --> 00:42:31,916
thoughtful question that might
help them think more systematically.
859
00:42:32,556 --> 00:42:36,796
Make the contributions without
being asked and without expecting
860
00:42:36,796 --> 00:42:39,996
immediate benefits and just
document what you learn.
861
00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:42,316
I think this is an exercise
for you to think how does it change
862
00:42:42,316 --> 00:42:45,996
my mindset when I always ask a
question about the context?
863
00:42:46,076 --> 00:42:48,156
How does it change how I feel
about my work?
864
00:42:48,476 --> 00:42:52,516
How does it change the quality
of my work when I get to work the
865
00:42:52,516 --> 00:42:54,236
conversation a little bit
differently in this way?
866
00:42:54,396 --> 00:42:57,806
And you might notice a change
in your outlook as you shift from
867
00:42:58,286 --> 00:43:01,406
always reacting and being
reactive in the way that you suppose
868
00:43:01,406 --> 00:43:05,086
is being asked for versus
being a little more proactive when
869
00:43:05,086 --> 00:43:07,006
you're giving these answers
and these kinds of support.
870
00:43:07,326 --> 00:43:10,846
So that's my third exercise,
the success, the stakeholder success
871
00:43:10,926 --> 00:43:11,326
story.
872
00:43:12,206 --> 00:43:16,526
So Mike, we've got four
pillars, we've got three pitfalls,
873
00:43:16,526 --> 00:43:18,406
we've got some exercises for
trust Building.
874
00:43:18,406 --> 00:43:22,476
I think we've done a lot here
to explore why and how we might want
875
00:43:22,476 --> 00:43:25,316
to get better at earning
trust, even without authority.
876
00:43:25,796 --> 00:43:29,316
Before we get right to the end
of the show here, what are some of
877
00:43:29,316 --> 00:43:30,196
your closing thoughts?
878
00:43:30,756 --> 00:43:34,916
Well, you know, I can't help
but just go back and say, as we started,
879
00:43:35,396 --> 00:43:39,716
without trust, you know, our
questions aren't as welcomed, our
880
00:43:39,716 --> 00:43:44,676
insights aren't as valued, and
our recommendations are less likely
881
00:43:44,676 --> 00:43:46,276
to be implemented.
882
00:43:46,436 --> 00:43:52,156
So without trust, we're
essentially undermining the value
883
00:43:52,476 --> 00:43:57,356
that we create and that the
things that we're talking about here
884
00:43:57,356 --> 00:43:58,956
are not manipulation.
885
00:43:59,116 --> 00:44:02,196
This is not, hey, just trust
me here.
886
00:44:02,196 --> 00:44:07,196
It's about consistently
demonstrating that we care more about
887
00:44:07,276 --> 00:44:09,316
collective success than
personal credit.
888
00:44:09,316 --> 00:44:12,876
As we talked about that we're
genuinely curious about different
889
00:44:12,956 --> 00:44:17,966
perspectives and that we're
always using our expertise, our experience,
890
00:44:18,446 --> 00:44:24,566
our position to serve others
goals rather than showcasing our
891
00:44:24,566 --> 00:44:25,246
own abilities.
892
00:44:25,326 --> 00:44:28,766
Now that's not to say it's not
also serving our goals.
893
00:44:28,766 --> 00:44:31,806
In fact, we say it's better
serving our goals.
894
00:44:31,886 --> 00:44:32,286
Right.
895
00:44:32,606 --> 00:44:36,246
And that our goals are
different than showcasing our own
896
00:44:36,246 --> 00:44:36,846
capabilities.
897
00:44:37,006 --> 00:44:37,406
Right.
898
00:44:37,966 --> 00:44:40,806
When you approach
relationships this way, and I would
899
00:44:40,806 --> 00:44:43,506
say, you know, here's one you
can take home.
900
00:44:43,906 --> 00:44:47,586
You could do this with
significant others, with friends,
901
00:44:47,666 --> 00:44:51,466
with kids, with, you know, you
expand this when you approach any
902
00:44:51,466 --> 00:44:52,706
relationship this way.
903
00:44:53,186 --> 00:44:55,026
Trust develops naturally.
904
00:44:55,346 --> 00:45:01,346
And with trust comes the
opportunities for influence, the
905
00:45:01,346 --> 00:45:06,386
opportunities to make our
greatest contributions organizationally.
906
00:45:06,946 --> 00:45:10,726
Personally, I mean, this is
with our own team members.
907
00:45:11,526 --> 00:45:15,206
People see us differently,
including our peers and our team
908
00:45:15,206 --> 00:45:15,486
members.
909
00:45:15,486 --> 00:45:20,766
They see the groups that we're
in differently and you know, it becomes
910
00:45:20,766 --> 00:45:25,446
a little bit infectious across
organizations, families, friend groups.
911
00:45:25,686 --> 00:45:27,606
We start interacting differently.
912
00:45:28,326 --> 00:45:29,046
What do you think?
913
00:45:29,526 --> 00:45:32,406
Well, it's funny, I'm just
reminded of a video clip I saw a
914
00:45:32,406 --> 00:45:33,846
couple of days ago of Stephen Fry.
915
00:45:34,236 --> 00:45:37,876
Stephen Fry, arguably British
literature, greatest living national
916
00:45:37,876 --> 00:45:41,676
treasure, an all round good
egg and podcaster and everything
917
00:45:41,676 --> 00:45:42,076
else.
918
00:45:42,236 --> 00:45:45,956
He was in a debate that I
think was about online discourse
919
00:45:45,956 --> 00:45:47,036
and political correctness.
920
00:45:47,036 --> 00:45:49,956
And I think there were a bunch
of other even more controversial
921
00:45:49,956 --> 00:45:51,596
people than him in the, in the panel.
922
00:45:51,756 --> 00:45:52,836
But he said something like this.
923
00:45:52,836 --> 00:45:57,556
He said the great mistake of
the late 20th century, early 21st
924
00:45:57,556 --> 00:46:01,296
century has been that we'd
rather be right than be effective.
925
00:46:01,376 --> 00:46:04,336
And I think that's quite a
good idea of what the dichotomy is.
926
00:46:04,416 --> 00:46:07,536
Being right is okay, but we
should prize being effective is what
927
00:46:07,536 --> 00:46:07,976
he's saying.
928
00:46:07,976 --> 00:46:09,696
I think there's another
dichotomy here.
929
00:46:09,936 --> 00:46:12,656
Sometimes we'd rather be right
than be happy.
930
00:46:13,296 --> 00:46:16,015
So I think that's been one of
our themes today.
931
00:46:16,016 --> 00:46:19,136
We don't want to be right at
all costs if it gets in the way of
932
00:46:19,136 --> 00:46:20,976
us being effective and as
being happy.
933
00:46:21,216 --> 00:46:25,616
So, Mike, I think we've made a
pretty good start on trust and authority.
934
00:46:26,096 --> 00:46:29,616
Next time, we're going to
share a framework for thinking about
935
00:46:29,616 --> 00:46:33,696
your evolution from just the
question answerer to being a partner
936
00:46:33,696 --> 00:46:34,576
to being an advisor.
937
00:46:34,576 --> 00:46:36,216
An advisor who's trusted.
938
00:46:36,536 --> 00:46:38,296
We have the model in our hands here.
939
00:46:38,296 --> 00:46:41,816
We call it the Strategic
Partner Pyramid, and we can't wait
940
00:46:41,816 --> 00:46:45,896
to share it with you in the
next episode of the Consulting for
941
00:46:45,896 --> 00:46:46,856
Humans Podcast.
942
00:46:52,056 --> 00:46:54,826
The Consultant the Consulting
for Humans Podcast is brought to
943
00:46:54,826 --> 00:46:57,666
you by P31 Consulting.