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Welcome, luminaries.
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We're so glad you joined us,
and thank you for supporting the
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show and joining our premium tier.
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Absolutely.
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It's great to have you with us.
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Now, back in our main show,
we've been talking about what makes
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a perfect consultant.
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And pretty quickly, Mike, we
identified a paradox which is that
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rather than choosing between
either analytic skill or creativity
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or prioritizing one over the
other, actually, consultants seem
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to need to be able to exhibit
a mix of both of those things.
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So here's what's coming up in
this episode.
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We're going to be talking
about recruitment, interview case
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studies and brain scans.
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We're going to be talking
about intuition and instinct.
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We're going to be talking
about thinking fast and thinking
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slow and thinking laterally.
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We're going to break down some
of the examples of why both skills,
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individually and together,
might be important for you successful
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consultants.
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Right.
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And as human consultants, what
can we do to grow a little bit of
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these attributes for ourselves?
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Mike, let's get into it.
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It's fascinating.
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We've been talking about
analytics and creativity like they're
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two different things.
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It seems to me our big question.
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Well, one of our big questions
here could be are they really innate
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and different from each other,
or are they just kind of places on
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a spectrum really interested
in this idea?
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I'm really interested in
whether people have got innate characteristics
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that help them be a good
consultant or whether they've learned
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and part.
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I guess my prejudice is that
most people have learned most of
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what they're good at, with
some exceptions of the real, real
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deep core of your personality.
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And I had put this creativity
and analytics thing in the learned,
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kind of culturally
acclimatized kind of bucket.
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My thought was that whatever
it is, there's going to be something
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that's a mix of personality
and talent and life experience, job
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expectations and education and
cultural conditioning.
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And you and I have both been
doing some reading for the show,
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and one of the first things
that I stumbled across tells me that
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I might actually be wrong
about this idea, that it's just a
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messy bunch of skills and culture.
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I came across a really
fascinating paper from Drexel University,
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and we'll put the link into
our show notes.
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These guys studied the
brainwave patterns of people solving
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anagram puzzles, and they
found two things, Mike.
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It's really fascinating.
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First of all, they found that
there were two distinct groups of
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puzzlers in terms of the way
people solved anagrams.
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There was one very consistent
cohort that solved puzzles in a linear
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way by trying combinations and
going through in order.
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And there was a distinct other
bunch of puzzlers, what you might
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call intuitive or instinctive
puzzlers who have a flash of aha,
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I see where this word fits.
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And that the pattern just
comes to them right away.
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So they discovered that there
were these two groups and then they
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discovered that the brainwave
patterns are distinct and different
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and stable.
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So people who are linear and
processy about the way they solve
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puzzles have a distinct
pattern of brainwaves that's different
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from the pattern of
brainwaves, from people who are,
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who are intuitive and quickly
find their way to the patterns.
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That's really interesting.
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It says that there's something
probably quite innate about the neurology
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of how our brains are doing this.
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The article also says that
humans and brains are adaptable.
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So therefore it's not fair to
say that if you're analytical, you
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can only ever be analytical,
nor vice versa.
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And I do think that we've
probably ended up in consulting with
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rather more of the analytical types.
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If there really are a type.
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I bet that selection of
various kinds biases a little bit
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towards getting hold of those
analytical people.
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That goes a fair way, Mike, to
explaining some of my kind of jaded
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jokes about watching bunches
of consultants standing around a
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whiteboard with pens in their
hands trying to come up with ideas.
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Those are people whose first
puzzle solving approach is going
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to be the slow, methodical,
analytical version, not the flash
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of inspiration.
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There's also.
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While we're thinking about
traits and adaptation, there's a
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nice summary article and again
we'll put the link in the show Notes
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from Penn University says it's
possible to train and develop both
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traits.
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Whatever your starting point
is, practice and adaptation of being
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both analytical and creative
is a great way to learn to be a better
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communicator and a great way
to learn to be a better problem solver.
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So Mike, it sounds like we may
have a particular starting point
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as humans, but it's also
something that can be learned and
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built on and adapted away from
a little bit.
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So Mike, analytical thinking,
what is it and where does it come
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from?
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Analytical thinking is needed
to break down complex problems into
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manageable components, clearly
to identify patterns or trends, and
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to develop logical evidence
based solutions.
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Along the path of doing that.
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We need analytical thinking to
evaluate options objectively and
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make sound recommendations.
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Very good.
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I like the breakdown there, Mike.
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And I'm already noticing that
in our main episode we talked about
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analytical thinking and I
think I sort of very cruelly reduced
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that to being good at spreadsheets.
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This word analytical is doing
a lot of heavy lifting here.
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You're talking about the
ability to use numbers, the ability
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to use analytical tools and
software to do reasoning, to see
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patterns and communicate.
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Communicate to an audience.
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All of these skills are mixed
up in this one word.
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And I'm sure I've been guilty
of conflating them a little bit.
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The Excel challenged analyst I
was talking about in my story in
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the main episode and dragging
the formulas across.
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He was probably actually a
great analytical thinker in all respects
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except for his competency in
the user interface of Microsoft Excel.
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Anyway, Mike, maybe we'll come
back to what that means for junior
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consultants later on.
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But Mike, let's stay with
analytical thinking for a second.
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Is there anything in books
that might shine a bit of a light
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on what analytical thinking
means and does for us in consulting?
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Well, if you Google somebody
who wants to get into consulting,
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what should they be reading?
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Well, a lot of this comes
right back to all of this myriad
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books about how to crack the
case study interview.
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In other words, how to appear
to be a really good analytical.
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And that message is if you
really want to get even at the top
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strategy jobs, particularly at
the top strategy jobs, if you want
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to come in new to that firm,
you've really got to crack that interview.
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I went back even to one like
Victor Chang's case interview secrets.
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You know Chang, former
McKinsey consultant.
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His includes as we talk
through quantitative analysis, clear
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communication of reasoning and
breaking down problems as well.
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But it occurs to me that some
of this mastery, as you point out,
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is the mastery of what you
need to do well in an initial set
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of interviews, not necessarily
the mastery of what you need to do
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well in actual consulting work
if you land the job.
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I mean, just as a quick
snapshot, we can think that case
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based interviews focus on
speed, not necessarily depth.
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It's quickly structuring
thinking and rapid problem solving
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under time pressure, working
with more simplified scenarios, using
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perhaps more general business
concepts and problem solving frameworks.
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But the job itself includes a
lot more than that, including working
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with a team and other things
and the complexity and ambiguity
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things.
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However, you can take that
idea and start thinking about, well,
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could I supplement that?
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So one example would be
critical thinking, your guide to
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effective argument, successful
analysis and independent study by
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Tom Chatfield.
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And Tom's book really helps
develop critical thinking skills
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by looking at things like
evaluating arguments, understanding
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reasoning types, recognizing
cognitive biases, assessing evidence,
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engaging opposing viewpoints,
identifying fallacies, questioning
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sources and questioning reasoning.
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Yours and others.
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Yeah, and it's really useful,
I think, to get Away from the just
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kind of blindly competitive,
do it fast and do it as speedily
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as you can.
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I can think of a few people in
my career I've met who haven't really
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escaped from the interview
candidate model of being rather over
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analytical and trying to do it
too fast.
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So it's not just I think here
about the difference between in interview
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case books and approaches and
analytical skill books and approaches.
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If I think about how people
have evolved their skills over time
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in their careers as
consultants, in my career as a consultant,
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you have to learn how to deal
with deep analysis of complex problems.
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You have to learn the wide
range of tools and resources.
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And I think also you have to
learn not to get too attached to
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any one tool or any one
resource as I can remember doing
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dealing with messy data, you
know, partial, incomplete, slightly
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contradictory data, which is
not generally the kind of data that
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you suppose is available in
interview case type situations and
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doing that collaboratively.
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Right.
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And it's certainly true that
if you, if you go and interview to
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get hired by a self respecting
consulting firm, they will test your
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analytics, but they'll also
test your teamwork, sometimes more
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successfully than others.
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I think this conversation is
taking us towards a point where we
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have to own up and say, yeah,
analytics are important, but analytics
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means more than just being
good at spreadsheets.
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It interacts with creativity.
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It also interacts with
teamwork, which isn't really a theme
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for today.
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Ian, I'm fascinated.
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Earlier you talked about the
articles you found about different
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brain waves and different ways
of thinking.
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Yes, thank you.
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This gives me the chance to
talk about one of my favorite recent
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pieces of popular science and
behavioral economics.
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Daniel Kahneman if you're
listening to this podcast, it's 5050
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that you'll already have heard
about and read Daniel Kahneman's
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really great book, Thinking
Fast and Slow.
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He has another book as well
called Noise, which takes the topic
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further along.
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He's explaining and exploring
how we think and how we make decisions.
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Mike earlier on we were
talking about biases and fallacies
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and he's really unpacking
features of the way the human brain
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works and how that drives
biases and fallacies.
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It's not really a book about
how to be analytical, but I think
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it is a book about how to
understand your analytical thought
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process, the processes that
all humans go through.
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Namely, he says we have a fast
route through problem solving which
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our brain tries to follow
using intuition and shorthand and
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heuristics.
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And we have a slow route where
we're more deliberate and more Explicit
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about reasoning and thinking
things out carefully.
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And I think besides learning
these processes for ourselves, it's
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going to be useful to
understand them so we can spot which
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brain pathway we're typically
using, spot which brain pathways
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our clients and our colleagues
are using, and understand the limitations,
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understand that the biases and
the errors.
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Because the big takeaway for
me from lots of this behavioral economics
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and sort of neurobiology is we
can learn about these errors and
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biases.
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And it's really good to know
in advance what biases we and also
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our clients might be prone to.
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So, Mike, if folks out there
haven't tried Dan Kahneman yet, I
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think he's well worth a look.
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I love the ideas about why
analytical thinking might be required.
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Let me try and break down why
creativity might be important for
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somebody in a consulting job.
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Even though the thought makes
me roll my eyes a little bit, I guess
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it is true that clients
sometimes come to us asking for innovative
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ideas and novel approaches.
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They'll say, we've tried the
familiar thing and we need you to
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help us find the new or
unfamiliar thing.
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Falling a little bit into what
sounds like a cliche to think outside
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the box.
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Now we have to talk later on
about thinking outside the box.
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It's a real thing, but
thinking in a way that gets us outside
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of what conventional wisdom brings.
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Because again, being familiar
or being one dimensional might be
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a risk for us, for our clients.
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And I think also creativity is
going to be about adapting, adapting
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to the different situations
that clients are faced with.
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Taking what we've learned in
one place and adapting it for another
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place and to be able to communicate.
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I think lots of communication
also has an element of creativity
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to it.
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00:13:16,187 --> 00:13:19,243
If I think of the people I've
known at work who are engaging in
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the way they communicated to
me, I would say.
246
00:13:21,411 --> 00:13:22,403
I would say they were.
247
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They were creative.
248
00:13:23,355 --> 00:13:25,575
I would say they had some
imagination as well.
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Yeah, I think this.
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We've talked about why
creativity is required and whether
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a client is coming for
innovative ideas and novel approaches,
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or whether they're asking us
to think out of the box.
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And I certainly have some that
directed it that way.
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00:13:40,943 --> 00:13:45,703
We found that this was always
a really important thing to think
255
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through when even when we were
just dealing with a client first
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00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:49,567
coming to us.
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What's the question they are
asking or the problem they're teeing
258
00:13:53,767 --> 00:13:57,195
up, and what's the problem
that they should be asking?
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00:13:57,735 --> 00:14:00,351
We've made the case for each
of these individually.
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What about the case for both
of them together?
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Well, I can certainly see, I
think I might need some more persuading,
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00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:11,933
but I can certainly see that
being able to communicate complex
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00:14:11,989 --> 00:14:15,949
ideas is going to require both
logic and intuition, as you might
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say.
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I still think, though, and I
include myself in this because I
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don't think I qualify.
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00:14:22,733 --> 00:14:27,261
I think it's very rare to find
consultants who are excellent at
268
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both analytical and creative thinking.
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And already the hypothesis of
can you get a perfect consultant.
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00:14:32,661 --> 00:14:37,207
For me, I think it's still not
proven, but still I've seen plenty
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of people who I really admire
who are at least strong, have some
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00:14:40,575 --> 00:14:42,127
capability in both areas.
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00:14:42,311 --> 00:14:45,215
People who've designed user
experiences and, you know, digital
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00:14:45,295 --> 00:14:51,527
tools for clients that combine
data and analytics with design and
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people in marketing engagements.
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Right.
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00:14:53,943 --> 00:14:57,087
Trying to leverage insights
about consumers and customers and
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00:14:57,111 --> 00:15:00,367
turn that into value messages
or narratives for a brand or for
279
00:15:00,391 --> 00:15:00,975
a campaign.
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00:15:01,095 --> 00:15:04,053
That's quite often the
everyday work of people that I would
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call consultants as well.
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Yeah.
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00:15:06,421 --> 00:15:08,853
And I think for me, you've.
284
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You've kind of put the
spotlight on this, too.
285
00:15:11,461 --> 00:15:15,941
Even strategy consultants who
are oftentimes, you know, I mentioned,
286
00:15:15,973 --> 00:15:19,501
I think in the radio show, the
Firm where the Rubber Meets the Clouds.
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00:15:19,613 --> 00:15:22,901
I mean, not necessarily, as
you say, in the same person, but
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00:15:22,933 --> 00:15:26,693
a team that can do both and
people who can work together, especially
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00:15:26,829 --> 00:15:30,637
when, and I think this applies
for every consultant, unless you're
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00:15:30,701 --> 00:15:34,881
incredibly good at one or the
other so good that you can, you know,
291
00:15:34,913 --> 00:15:39,129
kind of play that alone, you
better at least have some facility
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in the other.
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00:15:40,105 --> 00:15:40,625
It's interesting.
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00:15:40,665 --> 00:15:45,769
It reminds me of Herbert
Simon's work on grandmasters in chess.
295
00:15:45,937 --> 00:15:50,553
And I can't help but wondering
as I'm sitting here, if perhaps we've
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00:15:50,569 --> 00:15:54,961
got this bias in consulting to
bring in analytical types, but over
297
00:15:55,033 --> 00:15:59,449
time, as they develop and
start seeing patterns again and again
298
00:15:59,537 --> 00:16:04,225
and again, what seems like
that puzzle solver who has that flash
299
00:16:04,265 --> 00:16:08,729
of insight, in fact has
developed a repertoire of patterns
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00:16:08,897 --> 00:16:10,633
and they can see that pattern.
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00:16:10,729 --> 00:16:13,289
I want to come back to the
idea of repertoire and exposure in
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00:16:13,297 --> 00:16:15,889
a couple of minutes because I
think there's something else on creativity
303
00:16:15,937 --> 00:16:16,525
there.
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00:16:23,145 --> 00:16:26,719
Now, if you've got a question
or a comment about anything to do
305
00:16:26,727 --> 00:16:29,359
with the podcast, if you've
got a topic that you'd like to hear
306
00:16:29,407 --> 00:16:32,991
us discussing in one of our
deeper dives, you, our luminaries,
307
00:16:33,063 --> 00:16:35,423
are really welcome to contact us.
308
00:16:35,559 --> 00:16:37,327
Easiest way is by email.
309
00:16:37,511 --> 00:16:42,311
Consultingforhumans31-consulting.com we'd
310
00:16:42,343 --> 00:16:43,555
love to hear from you.
311
00:16:43,895 --> 00:16:47,695
We'd love to make this a show
about you and for you.
312
00:16:47,855 --> 00:16:51,275
Now, Mike, let's get back into creativity.
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00:16:55,115 --> 00:16:58,379
Well, Ian, we've talked a lot
about analytical, we've talked a
314
00:16:58,387 --> 00:16:59,963
bit about brain processes.
315
00:17:00,099 --> 00:17:02,379
So how about this creativity thing?
316
00:17:02,427 --> 00:17:05,147
Some of our analytics
listening might be going, yeah, that's
317
00:17:05,171 --> 00:17:06,171
all smoke and mirrors.
318
00:17:06,203 --> 00:17:08,411
That's a little bit of voodoo
or something.
319
00:17:08,603 --> 00:17:12,827
Well, it's funny, it's easy to
think that, especially if you're
320
00:17:12,851 --> 00:17:16,323
happy with the world of saying
my analytical skill is innate and
321
00:17:16,339 --> 00:17:18,355
it's my core and it's where
I'm going to stay.
322
00:17:18,515 --> 00:17:22,701
I suspect that we're going to
find that creativity is something
323
00:17:22,853 --> 00:17:25,485
that we can learn besides just
being innate.
324
00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:29,381
The natural place where I
think of as having a role for creative
325
00:17:29,413 --> 00:17:31,741
thinking is whenever
consulting and professional services
326
00:17:31,933 --> 00:17:36,477
strays into design or anything
that involves kind of creating new
327
00:17:36,541 --> 00:17:37,145
stuff.
328
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:39,709
Mike, I think you've been
doing some reading there.
329
00:17:39,877 --> 00:17:43,749
Well, Ian, a really nice one
here on creativity, a book called
330
00:17:43,837 --> 00:17:48,005
Creative Confidence by Tom
Kelly and his brother David Kelly.
331
00:17:48,045 --> 00:17:53,075
I think those of you who know
these folks, they work closely together
332
00:17:53,155 --> 00:17:57,347
at the innovation design
consultancy ideo, who's worked from
333
00:17:57,491 --> 00:18:02,643
everything from product design
to big global problems.
334
00:18:02,779 --> 00:18:06,963
They talk about the fact that
you have to break through some myths
335
00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:10,763
here that creativity is not
limited to artistic types.
336
00:18:10,819 --> 00:18:15,691
It's a universal human ability
that can be developed.
337
00:18:15,763 --> 00:18:18,755
This is not something you're
born with or not born with that you
338
00:18:18,835 --> 00:18:21,843
have a brain that has, that's
wired for this or it isn't wired
339
00:18:21,899 --> 00:18:22,725
for this.
340
00:18:22,915 --> 00:18:28,721
So they use, not surprisingly,
design thinking, which includes steps
341
00:18:28,793 --> 00:18:34,977
like empathizing with users,
defining the problem, coming up with
342
00:18:35,081 --> 00:18:39,497
a number of different
prototypes, ideation you might call
343
00:18:39,521 --> 00:18:41,601
it, and then testing.
344
00:18:41,793 --> 00:18:46,817
So the required skills are not
completely separate from analytical
345
00:18:46,961 --> 00:18:47,725
ones.
346
00:18:48,195 --> 00:18:53,147
But they underscore that doing
this well requires that empathy that
347
00:18:53,171 --> 00:18:54,179
we talked about.
348
00:18:54,347 --> 00:18:57,499
And this creativity evolves.
349
00:18:57,587 --> 00:19:02,763
The more somebody goes through
these kinds of processes, it develops
350
00:19:02,899 --> 00:19:04,083
with practice.
351
00:19:04,219 --> 00:19:06,267
So they suggest that
consultants who want to build their
352
00:19:06,291 --> 00:19:11,795
creative capacity should view
their own lives and careers as design
353
00:19:11,915 --> 00:19:17,665
projects and constantly be
experimenting and iterating.
354
00:19:18,085 --> 00:19:22,357
They also suggest that it's
more than just us as individuals.
355
00:19:22,421 --> 00:19:26,733
They talk about a creative
culture fostered in teams that maintain
356
00:19:26,829 --> 00:19:28,165
a sense of humor.
357
00:19:28,285 --> 00:19:31,165
And it comes to my mind that
on some of the high pressure consulting
358
00:19:31,205 --> 00:19:36,005
engagements that I've been in,
especially those who were led by
359
00:19:36,045 --> 00:19:39,517
people schooled in kind of the
confidence, arrogance thing that
360
00:19:39,541 --> 00:19:43,341
we'll talk about at another
time sometimes might not be the best
361
00:19:43,453 --> 00:19:44,887
environment for, for this.
362
00:19:45,031 --> 00:19:45,935
Yeah, it's good.
363
00:19:46,015 --> 00:19:49,783
It's reassuring as well that
there are kind of team answers and
364
00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:53,327
process answers to how do you
get more creativity out of teams?
365
00:19:53,471 --> 00:19:55,991
Yeah, Very good, thank you.
366
00:19:56,143 --> 00:20:00,431
So I can remember looking into
the idea of techniques for creative
367
00:20:00,463 --> 00:20:03,471
thinking way back at the
beginning of my consulting career.
368
00:20:03,623 --> 00:20:06,983
I guess partly with the idea
in my head that I think I'm a fairly
369
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:09,023
literal and sort of linear thinker.
370
00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:10,799
I've studied engineering in college.
371
00:20:10,847 --> 00:20:13,951
I worked in fairly
quantitative, fairly numbers, heavy
372
00:20:13,983 --> 00:20:16,315
versions of consulting in
quite a few different times.
373
00:20:17,035 --> 00:20:20,643
And I looked into an old
favorite and which I'll share with
374
00:20:20,699 --> 00:20:21,715
everybody right now.
375
00:20:21,835 --> 00:20:24,575
And I want to mention as well
something new that I came across.
376
00:20:24,995 --> 00:20:28,859
An old favorite is Edward de
Bono and any of his books.
377
00:20:28,947 --> 00:20:31,619
The most famous one, the one I
wanted to think about today, is lateral
378
00:20:31,667 --> 00:20:32,339
thinking.
379
00:20:32,507 --> 00:20:36,403
And Mike, this is one of those
moments where an old geezer says,
380
00:20:36,459 --> 00:20:37,347
kids these days.
381
00:20:37,451 --> 00:20:38,611
Kids these days know nothing.
382
00:20:38,683 --> 00:20:40,451
Kids these days haven't heard
of Edward de Bono.
383
00:20:40,483 --> 00:20:41,979
Or they think that that's kind of.
384
00:20:42,067 --> 00:20:45,003
That they've heard the
phrases, phrases like lateral thinking,
385
00:20:45,059 --> 00:20:47,419
like brainstorming, like
thinking outside the box.
386
00:20:47,547 --> 00:20:50,243
These are just turns of phrase
that are in everyday modern language.
387
00:20:50,339 --> 00:20:54,619
But they all originated back
in the 70s and 80s with the psychologist
388
00:20:54,667 --> 00:20:56,015
Edward de Bono.
389
00:20:57,795 --> 00:21:00,875
Lateral thinking, for example,
is a technique that he described
390
00:21:00,995 --> 00:21:04,027
as a way to get people to
stimulate their brains to work in
391
00:21:04,051 --> 00:21:05,707
a non analytical way.
392
00:21:05,811 --> 00:21:09,091
So he describes very
traditional analysis, you know, gathering
393
00:21:09,123 --> 00:21:12,267
of data and stacking up of
facts and influences.
394
00:21:12,411 --> 00:21:14,381
He calls that vertical thinking.
395
00:21:14,523 --> 00:21:17,041
And he's using the visual
metaphor and saying lateral thinking
396
00:21:17,073 --> 00:21:20,201
is to kind of go at right
angles to that and look at the world
397
00:21:20,233 --> 00:21:21,285
in a new way.
398
00:21:21,745 --> 00:21:25,193
Now I already knew about the
ideas of lateral thinking.
399
00:21:25,249 --> 00:21:26,889
It was great to get a reminder.
400
00:21:27,017 --> 00:21:30,209
I found a really interesting
technique for creativity.
401
00:21:30,377 --> 00:21:34,765
Further down in the book he
talks about the reversal principle.
402
00:21:35,465 --> 00:21:37,241
And I really like the reversal principle.
403
00:21:37,273 --> 00:21:40,697
It basically says you flip
around the problem that you're looking
404
00:21:40,721 --> 00:21:41,745
for a creative answer to.
405
00:21:41,785 --> 00:21:46,247
So for example, the problem is
that you want to go on holiday this
406
00:21:46,271 --> 00:21:49,135
summer, on vacation this
summer, but you don't know where.
407
00:21:49,255 --> 00:21:51,783
You're finding it hard to
generate some creative answers.
408
00:21:51,919 --> 00:21:54,175
So start with some reverse
creative answers.
409
00:21:54,335 --> 00:21:56,887
Where's the worst place you
could possibly go?
410
00:21:57,071 --> 00:21:59,007
Which, by the way, is a
creative brainstorm.
411
00:21:59,031 --> 00:22:00,515
I'd have lots of fun with.
412
00:22:00,895 --> 00:22:03,375
Where's the worst place you
could possibly go on holiday?
413
00:22:03,495 --> 00:22:05,927
And where would you go if it
was winter?
414
00:22:06,111 --> 00:22:09,295
So he's kind of trying to fill
in other bits of the creative space
415
00:22:09,335 --> 00:22:10,995
by using this reversal idea.
416
00:22:11,355 --> 00:22:12,571
I think it's really great.
417
00:22:12,603 --> 00:22:16,299
And if you've never read any
of Edward de Bono, there are books
418
00:22:16,387 --> 00:22:20,211
and blogs and, you know,
articles all over the Internet about
419
00:22:20,243 --> 00:22:21,211
Edward De Bono.
420
00:22:21,323 --> 00:22:25,635
He's very widely published and
very widely summarized and plagiarized
421
00:22:25,675 --> 00:22:26,655
from as well.
422
00:22:28,235 --> 00:22:32,691
You know, I've always loved De
Bono because I think you can get
423
00:22:32,763 --> 00:22:38,077
a handful like build your own
Swiss army knife of approaches that
424
00:22:38,261 --> 00:22:43,197
it never ceases to amaze how
useful they are in various situations,
425
00:22:43,261 --> 00:22:47,389
personal and professional, for
thinking differently about a problem
426
00:22:47,437 --> 00:22:48,665
or an opportunity.
427
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:53,853
Yeah, and the new reference
and the new set of ideas that I came
428
00:22:53,869 --> 00:22:57,269
across, actually it turned my
brain on because it related to something
429
00:22:57,397 --> 00:22:58,345
more personal.
430
00:22:58,645 --> 00:23:02,891
There's a book called the
Creative Curve by Alan Gannett.
431
00:23:03,003 --> 00:23:04,955
And actually lots of his
examples are from the.
432
00:23:04,995 --> 00:23:06,963
What you might call the
creative arts, writing and music.
433
00:23:07,019 --> 00:23:08,815
And music is a big passion of mine.
434
00:23:09,555 --> 00:23:13,251
And some of the book is
interesting, but not directly related
435
00:23:13,283 --> 00:23:16,131
to consulting because it talks
about where artistically creative
436
00:23:16,243 --> 00:23:18,295
ideas and impulses come from.
437
00:23:19,395 --> 00:23:23,955
But he does have some really
good insights into the origins of
438
00:23:23,995 --> 00:23:24,715
creativity.
439
00:23:24,835 --> 00:23:26,971
First of all, he points out
that there's been some research that
440
00:23:27,003 --> 00:23:31,321
says that high IQ above a
certain level doesn't correlate with
441
00:23:31,353 --> 00:23:32,153
creativity.
442
00:23:32,289 --> 00:23:37,841
So getting more smart people
in a room doesn't generate more creative
443
00:23:37,913 --> 00:23:39,885
ideas or answers or solutions.
444
00:23:40,745 --> 00:23:43,873
Instead, he says that
creativity is associated with purpose
445
00:23:43,929 --> 00:23:44,805
and experience.
446
00:23:45,745 --> 00:23:47,913
The purpose one, I think is
pretty familiar.
447
00:23:47,969 --> 00:23:51,945
It's the idea that you'll do a
better job with summoning up creative
448
00:23:51,985 --> 00:23:56,547
ideas if you could have a
really kind of crystal clear, almost
449
00:23:56,611 --> 00:23:58,667
provocative definition of the problem.
450
00:23:58,771 --> 00:24:01,571
So being good at defining
problems is a great way to stimulate
451
00:24:01,683 --> 00:24:02,979
people's creativity.
452
00:24:03,147 --> 00:24:05,731
Much more important than
simply having people around who've
453
00:24:05,763 --> 00:24:09,415
got crazy ideas or wear purple
hats or sit on bean bags.
454
00:24:10,435 --> 00:24:15,851
The second component was the
idea that experience drives creativity,
455
00:24:16,003 --> 00:24:19,123
which is interesting because I
often see people kind of trying to
456
00:24:19,139 --> 00:24:21,307
be creative and scratching
their heads, thinking of things that
457
00:24:21,331 --> 00:24:22,287
have worked before.
458
00:24:22,451 --> 00:24:26,247
But in that kind of thinking,
your experience is used as a reason
459
00:24:26,271 --> 00:24:27,795
to shut down creativity.
460
00:24:28,695 --> 00:24:31,463
But Gannett says actually
people who are very creative are
461
00:24:31,479 --> 00:24:35,155
the ones who have read and
consumed a huge amount of content.
462
00:24:35,855 --> 00:24:39,999
So have read or been around or
understood or analyzed many, many,
463
00:24:40,047 --> 00:24:43,087
many different versions of the
thing that you're thinking about.
464
00:24:43,271 --> 00:24:47,079
So, for example, if you want
lots of ideas for solutions of, say,
465
00:24:47,207 --> 00:24:51,925
how to develop an IT system
for a chain of fitness gyms, you
466
00:24:51,965 --> 00:24:56,173
need in the team not only
smart people, but more importantly,
467
00:24:56,269 --> 00:24:59,725
people who have seen or read
or done a lot to do with fitness
468
00:24:59,765 --> 00:25:04,745
gyms and people who've seen or
read or done a lot to do with it.
469
00:25:05,685 --> 00:25:09,741
So we can enhance our creative
potential by making sure that we
470
00:25:09,773 --> 00:25:13,013
read a lot, that we Just feed
our brain, feed our curiosity and
471
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:15,789
let it build up a mental data bank.
472
00:25:15,917 --> 00:25:19,879
Not a structured database with
query terms, just a mental data bank.
473
00:25:20,007 --> 00:25:22,927
A collective memory of all the
things that you've seen and thought
474
00:25:22,951 --> 00:25:23,159
about.
475
00:25:23,207 --> 00:25:26,655
Even if it was somebody else's
situation or somebody else's solution
476
00:25:26,735 --> 00:25:27,479
that you've read about.
477
00:25:27,527 --> 00:25:30,151
And I think that's a great
reason for us to keep reading blogs
478
00:25:30,183 --> 00:25:32,655
and newspapers and articles
and industry news.
479
00:25:32,775 --> 00:25:35,751
Not only because we find out
what's up to date, but we're feeding
480
00:25:35,783 --> 00:25:38,327
our data bank of what's
possible as well.
481
00:25:38,511 --> 00:25:42,719
Yeah, and I think it's a great
reason for the exchange of knowledge
482
00:25:42,807 --> 00:25:45,631
across consultancies and
across individuals.
483
00:25:45,703 --> 00:25:51,511
Not just in the structured
what can we go query this database,
484
00:25:51,623 --> 00:25:56,871
but again building on that, if
you will, pattern recognition and
485
00:25:56,903 --> 00:25:59,591
that big set of content of
things that we have.
486
00:25:59,703 --> 00:26:03,127
I was talking about Simon and
pattern recognition and I think this
487
00:26:03,151 --> 00:26:07,215
is part of getting to the same
thing, this idea of saying there's
488
00:26:07,295 --> 00:26:10,335
lots of experience in that
data bank.
489
00:26:10,455 --> 00:26:14,215
You know, it's interesting
because a book I read called the
490
00:26:14,255 --> 00:26:19,247
Hidden Habits of Genius by
Craig Wright kind of deepens and
491
00:26:19,351 --> 00:26:22,695
democratizes what's needed to
develop creativity.
492
00:26:22,815 --> 00:26:26,319
There's this idea that
breakthroughs are often the result
493
00:26:26,407 --> 00:26:34,127
of complex thinking processes
combined with lengthy gestation periods.
494
00:26:34,271 --> 00:26:38,175
They're not these eureka
moments that we sometimes think,
495
00:26:38,215 --> 00:26:39,719
oh God, I wish I could do that.
496
00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:42,563
Well, you know, that's kind of
like that 20 year over overnight
497
00:26:42,619 --> 00:26:45,707
success that you have
sometimes here.
498
00:26:45,851 --> 00:26:47,883
One day, Mike, I'm going to
wake up and it'll turn out I've been
499
00:26:47,899 --> 00:26:49,411
a 55 year overnight success.
500
00:26:49,483 --> 00:26:52,331
But exactly, exactly.
501
00:26:52,403 --> 00:26:52,755
So.
502
00:26:52,835 --> 00:26:53,787
Right, exactly.
503
00:26:53,851 --> 00:26:58,555
That instead that success
comes from cultivating specific habits
504
00:26:58,635 --> 00:27:05,275
like curiosity and really kind
of reinforcing what you just said,
505
00:27:05,315 --> 00:27:09,555
Ian, a real obsession to
enhance creative thinking by learning
506
00:27:09,635 --> 00:27:11,683
from diverse examples.
507
00:27:11,819 --> 00:27:15,871
I mean, I remember Roger's
arrangement, original kind of foundational
508
00:27:15,943 --> 00:27:19,593
book on innovation, you know,
clearly pointing out that about 80%
509
00:27:19,697 --> 00:27:23,220
of innovation is the diffusion
of innovations.
510
00:27:23,324 --> 00:27:27,455
80% comes from real well known
practices in other industries and
511
00:27:27,495 --> 00:27:29,703
cultures just being shed around.
512
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:31,615
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
513
00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:35,927
This other point that's,
that's often been helpful to me is
514
00:27:35,991 --> 00:27:39,679
focusing on people in groups
that are different, that are often
515
00:27:39,767 --> 00:27:41,747
overlooked but successful.
516
00:27:41,811 --> 00:27:44,123
What you might call a positive deviant.
517
00:27:44,259 --> 00:27:45,483
Right, exactly.
518
00:27:45,539 --> 00:27:49,315
As you had said, argues you
have to look beyond just what we
519
00:27:49,395 --> 00:27:51,651
normally think of in a
successful consultant.
520
00:27:51,683 --> 00:27:55,003
It's not just talent, IQ and grit.
521
00:27:55,179 --> 00:27:59,307
There's a more holistic
approach to creativity and to becoming
522
00:27:59,411 --> 00:28:03,855
an exceptional consultant as
well as an exceptional individual.
523
00:28:04,555 --> 00:28:08,095
So Mike, we've got some themes
coming out of these books here.
524
00:28:08,565 --> 00:28:12,245
Creativity is a skill that can
be developed, and I think we've always
525
00:28:12,365 --> 00:28:15,773
known all along that
analytical skill and reasoning is
526
00:28:15,789 --> 00:28:16,861
a skill that can be developed.
527
00:28:16,933 --> 00:28:20,133
But creativity is not just a
flash in the pan like you say, it
528
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:21,013
can be developed.
529
00:28:21,109 --> 00:28:23,253
There's deliberate practice
that we can work up.
530
00:28:23,349 --> 00:28:25,985
There are mindset shifts that
can help us.
531
00:28:26,285 --> 00:28:27,717
We do still need structure.
532
00:28:27,781 --> 00:28:31,141
Like we said, structured
definition of a problem stimulates
533
00:28:31,173 --> 00:28:33,429
us to produce creative answers
to the problem.
534
00:28:33,597 --> 00:28:35,637
Understanding context helps
with that.
535
00:28:35,781 --> 00:28:38,277
Getting a deep understanding
of needs and a deep understanding
536
00:28:38,301 --> 00:28:40,897
of the canon of things that
you've seen and expert, experienced,
537
00:28:41,001 --> 00:28:46,217
all really important for us as
consultants, I guess, as well as
538
00:28:46,241 --> 00:28:49,385
thinking about ourselves and
the consulting team that we're working
539
00:28:49,425 --> 00:28:52,365
in, we should think about our
clients and our customers as well.
540
00:28:52,705 --> 00:28:54,161
There's a whole other context there.
541
00:28:54,193 --> 00:28:56,513
There's a whole range of
experience that they've had.
542
00:28:56,689 --> 00:29:00,385
And I know, Mike, you and I
have exhorted consultants many times
543
00:29:00,425 --> 00:29:03,225
in the past to turn to their
clients when it comes to creating
544
00:29:03,265 --> 00:29:06,361
new ideas and not just to sort
of stay in the bunker and hope that
545
00:29:06,393 --> 00:29:08,285
ideas come to them.
546
00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:11,973
And for me, and we've worked
on this together in projects and
547
00:29:11,989 --> 00:29:17,509
stuff, it also includes not
just your client, but this broader
548
00:29:17,557 --> 00:29:23,029
set of stakeholders that
create and divide value in any situation.
549
00:29:23,157 --> 00:29:26,733
Who are the people interacting
here that I can understand more about?
550
00:29:26,829 --> 00:29:31,917
See that bigger picture more
creatively and analytically in order
551
00:29:31,941 --> 00:29:33,345
to get to a better solution?
552
00:29:33,845 --> 00:29:35,053
Yeah, I see.
553
00:29:35,109 --> 00:29:38,221
It's a really good tangent
into the power and the importance
554
00:29:38,253 --> 00:29:40,829
of understanding stakeholders,
which I'm sure we'll talk about at
555
00:29:40,837 --> 00:29:41,733
some other point.
556
00:29:41,869 --> 00:29:44,149
It's really tempting for
consultants to say, well, I'm going
557
00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:47,757
to work for the person who's
giving me the facts and setting my
558
00:29:47,781 --> 00:29:50,405
objective and paying my bill,
and to treat that as just one person
559
00:29:50,445 --> 00:29:54,221
and one perspective, which is
great, but you don't learn very much.
560
00:29:54,413 --> 00:29:57,853
And lots of what we've learned
is from the broader range of people
561
00:29:57,909 --> 00:29:59,225
standing behind our clients.
562
00:29:59,635 --> 00:30:02,803
So working for big, complex
client organizations isn't just a
563
00:30:02,819 --> 00:30:03,395
pain in the ass.
564
00:30:03,435 --> 00:30:04,771
It's actually a chance to
learn as well.
565
00:30:04,803 --> 00:30:05,459
If you can.
566
00:30:05,587 --> 00:30:07,535
If you can find a way to
listen out for it.
567
00:30:07,875 --> 00:30:08,935
Absolutely.
568
00:30:14,235 --> 00:30:17,355
So, Mike, it feels like we're
making good progress through this
569
00:30:17,395 --> 00:30:19,987
story about analytics and creativity.
570
00:30:20,171 --> 00:30:22,027
Give us some final thoughts here.
571
00:30:22,171 --> 00:30:26,085
What kind of things do we need
to be on the lookout for as professionals
572
00:30:26,205 --> 00:30:29,733
to keep honing our analytical
and our creative skills?
573
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:31,261
It's not about being the best.
574
00:30:31,333 --> 00:30:34,465
It's about being better than I
was yesterday.
575
00:30:35,605 --> 00:30:39,341
So in that spirit, there are
lots of things, as you say, Ian,
576
00:30:39,373 --> 00:30:40,933
we can be doing on the job.
577
00:30:40,989 --> 00:30:43,813
We can practice both
convergent, I.e.
578
00:30:43,869 --> 00:30:46,141
analytical and divergent
creative thinking.
579
00:30:46,173 --> 00:30:52,149
When approaching problems, we
can seek out diverse project experiences
580
00:30:52,197 --> 00:30:54,501
that require different skill sets.
581
00:30:54,533 --> 00:30:57,391
So again, you know, stepping a
little bit out of our comfort zone
582
00:30:57,463 --> 00:31:02,639
sometimes to expand and learn,
we can collaborate with colleagues
583
00:31:02,727 --> 00:31:08,919
who have complementary
strengths and actively solicit feedback
584
00:31:08,967 --> 00:31:14,367
on both the rigor and the
innovativeness of our work.
585
00:31:14,511 --> 00:31:17,551
Those are on the job things we
can do and I think they're off the
586
00:31:17,583 --> 00:31:19,271
job things as well.
587
00:31:19,463 --> 00:31:23,523
Yeah, it's funny, I've taken a
lot from this about off the job and
588
00:31:23,539 --> 00:31:25,827
it's inspired me to do a bit
more thinking for myself.
589
00:31:26,011 --> 00:31:29,387
Keeping your brain fresh,
continue to read and reflect and
590
00:31:29,411 --> 00:31:32,291
learn and keep exposing
yourself to new cultures.
591
00:31:32,363 --> 00:31:34,547
I mean, one of the
difficulties about working in our
592
00:31:34,571 --> 00:31:37,979
profession is that we, we stay
in a particular part of a particular
593
00:31:38,067 --> 00:31:42,523
kind of, kind of post
industrial, relatively comfortable,
594
00:31:42,579 --> 00:31:44,251
relatively privileged western culture.
595
00:31:44,323 --> 00:31:48,619
And that's, that's going to,
for all sorts of reasons, going to
596
00:31:48,627 --> 00:31:49,211
be bad for us.
597
00:31:49,243 --> 00:31:52,249
But one particular reason
could be that it might lead us to
598
00:31:52,257 --> 00:31:53,841
have a narrow range of experience.
599
00:31:53,993 --> 00:31:56,329
Couldn't agree more with you, Ian.
600
00:31:56,497 --> 00:31:59,921
Well, I think clearly by
consciously developing and integrating
601
00:31:59,993 --> 00:32:05,161
both analytical and creative
capabilities, consultants enhance
602
00:32:05,233 --> 00:32:07,697
their problem solving skills.
603
00:32:07,841 --> 00:32:10,841
And I think the same
translates for humans.
604
00:32:10,953 --> 00:32:12,465
Listen, it's been a great show.
605
00:32:12,505 --> 00:32:14,617
I want to thank the listeners
for being with us today.
606
00:32:14,761 --> 00:32:18,133
If you've enjoyed your first
time as a luminary, then thank you
607
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:19,165
for being here.
608
00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:23,669
Please give us a like, please
give us a review, maybe even tell
609
00:32:23,717 --> 00:32:25,621
a friend that you've enjoyed
the show.
610
00:32:25,693 --> 00:32:28,549
We've got our next regular
episode probably out there already
611
00:32:28,637 --> 00:32:29,389
for you to enjoy.
612
00:32:29,437 --> 00:32:31,101
If not, it'll be there very soon.
613
00:32:31,253 --> 00:32:35,829
And coming up in our next
Luminaries episode, Mike, we're going
614
00:32:35,837 --> 00:32:39,357
to be talking about the
balance between humility and confidence
615
00:32:39,421 --> 00:32:42,725
and talking about self
knowledge and life skill and how
616
00:32:42,765 --> 00:32:46,069
they might relate to
consulting, how they might help us
617
00:32:46,237 --> 00:32:50,637
to maybe take baby steps
towards this idea of a perfect consultant.
618
00:32:50,821 --> 00:32:53,501
Thank you then for being a
luminary with us and we're looking
619
00:32:53,533 --> 00:32:56,445
forward to shedding a little
bit more light together next.
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:16,784
Welcome, luminaries.
2
00:00:16,784 --> 00:00:19,985
We're so glad you joined us,
and thank you for supporting the
3
00:00:20,025 --> 00:00:22,565
show and joining our premium tier.
4
00:00:22,905 --> 00:00:23,601
Absolutely.
5
00:00:23,633 --> 00:00:24,921
It's great to have you with us.
6
00:00:25,033 --> 00:00:29,431
Now, back in our main show,
we've been talking about what makes
7
00:00:29,543 --> 00:00:31,119
a perfect consultant.
8
00:00:31,247 --> 00:00:34,951
And pretty quickly, Mike, we
identified a paradox which is that
9
00:00:35,063 --> 00:00:40,127
rather than choosing between
either analytic skill or creativity
10
00:00:40,191 --> 00:00:44,087
or prioritizing one over the
other, actually, consultants seem
11
00:00:44,111 --> 00:00:48,835
to need to be able to exhibit
a mix of both of those things.
12
00:00:49,295 --> 00:00:51,703
So here's what's coming up in
this episode.
13
00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:54,311
We're going to be talking
about recruitment, interview case
14
00:00:54,343 --> 00:00:55,703
studies and brain scans.
15
00:00:55,759 --> 00:00:58,759
We're going to be talking
about intuition and instinct.
16
00:00:58,847 --> 00:01:01,727
We're going to be talking
about thinking fast and thinking
17
00:01:01,791 --> 00:01:04,103
slow and thinking laterally.
18
00:01:04,279 --> 00:01:07,527
We're going to break down some
of the examples of why both skills,
19
00:01:07,591 --> 00:01:12,423
individually and together,
might be important for you successful
20
00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,315
consultants.
21
00:01:14,255 --> 00:01:14,783
Right.
22
00:01:14,879 --> 00:01:20,227
And as human consultants, what
can we do to grow a little bit of
23
00:01:20,251 --> 00:01:22,055
these attributes for ourselves?
24
00:01:22,635 --> 00:01:24,403
Mike, let's get into it.
25
00:01:24,459 --> 00:01:25,011
It's fascinating.
26
00:01:25,043 --> 00:01:27,995
We've been talking about
analytics and creativity like they're
27
00:01:28,035 --> 00:01:28,851
two different things.
28
00:01:28,923 --> 00:01:30,371
It seems to me our big question.
29
00:01:30,483 --> 00:01:33,923
Well, one of our big questions
here could be are they really innate
30
00:01:33,979 --> 00:01:36,387
and different from each other,
or are they just kind of places on
31
00:01:36,411 --> 00:01:46,023
a spectrum really interested
in this idea?
32
00:01:46,119 --> 00:01:48,695
I'm really interested in
whether people have got innate characteristics
33
00:01:48,735 --> 00:01:51,263
that help them be a good
consultant or whether they've learned
34
00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:51,871
and part.
35
00:01:51,983 --> 00:01:54,823
I guess my prejudice is that
most people have learned most of
36
00:01:54,839 --> 00:01:57,895
what they're good at, with
some exceptions of the real, real
37
00:01:57,935 --> 00:01:59,431
deep core of your personality.
38
00:01:59,583 --> 00:02:03,727
And I had put this creativity
and analytics thing in the learned,
39
00:02:03,911 --> 00:02:07,679
kind of culturally
acclimatized kind of bucket.
40
00:02:07,847 --> 00:02:10,639
My thought was that whatever
it is, there's going to be something
41
00:02:10,687 --> 00:02:14,935
that's a mix of personality
and talent and life experience, job
42
00:02:14,975 --> 00:02:17,807
expectations and education and
cultural conditioning.
43
00:02:17,991 --> 00:02:20,951
And you and I have both been
doing some reading for the show,
44
00:02:21,103 --> 00:02:24,287
and one of the first things
that I stumbled across tells me that
45
00:02:24,311 --> 00:02:28,343
I might actually be wrong
about this idea, that it's just a
46
00:02:28,359 --> 00:02:30,143
messy bunch of skills and culture.
47
00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:33,671
I came across a really
fascinating paper from Drexel University,
48
00:02:33,823 --> 00:02:35,955
and we'll put the link into
our show notes.
49
00:02:36,335 --> 00:02:40,505
These guys studied the
brainwave patterns of people solving
50
00:02:40,625 --> 00:02:42,825
anagram puzzles, and they
found two things, Mike.
51
00:02:42,865 --> 00:02:43,993
It's really fascinating.
52
00:02:44,129 --> 00:02:47,137
First of all, they found that
there were two distinct groups of
53
00:02:47,161 --> 00:02:49,833
puzzlers in terms of the way
people solved anagrams.
54
00:02:49,969 --> 00:02:54,497
There was one very consistent
cohort that solved puzzles in a linear
55
00:02:54,561 --> 00:02:57,845
way by trying combinations and
going through in order.
56
00:02:58,385 --> 00:03:02,257
And there was a distinct other
bunch of puzzlers, what you might
57
00:03:02,281 --> 00:03:05,577
call intuitive or instinctive
puzzlers who have a flash of aha,
58
00:03:05,641 --> 00:03:07,157
I see where this word fits.
59
00:03:07,321 --> 00:03:09,705
And that the pattern just
comes to them right away.
60
00:03:10,485 --> 00:03:13,901
So they discovered that there
were these two groups and then they
61
00:03:13,933 --> 00:03:17,229
discovered that the brainwave
patterns are distinct and different
62
00:03:17,277 --> 00:03:18,125
and stable.
63
00:03:18,245 --> 00:03:21,941
So people who are linear and
processy about the way they solve
64
00:03:21,973 --> 00:03:25,125
puzzles have a distinct
pattern of brainwaves that's different
65
00:03:25,165 --> 00:03:27,373
from the pattern of
brainwaves, from people who are,
66
00:03:27,549 --> 00:03:31,425
who are intuitive and quickly
find their way to the patterns.
67
00:03:31,925 --> 00:03:32,845
That's really interesting.
68
00:03:32,885 --> 00:03:37,487
It says that there's something
probably quite innate about the neurology
69
00:03:37,591 --> 00:03:39,715
of how our brains are doing this.
70
00:03:40,695 --> 00:03:44,631
The article also says that
humans and brains are adaptable.
71
00:03:44,783 --> 00:03:47,903
So therefore it's not fair to
say that if you're analytical, you
72
00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:50,759
can only ever be analytical,
nor vice versa.
73
00:03:50,927 --> 00:03:55,471
And I do think that we've
probably ended up in consulting with
74
00:03:55,503 --> 00:03:57,319
rather more of the analytical types.
75
00:03:57,407 --> 00:03:58,999
If there really are a type.
76
00:03:59,167 --> 00:04:02,935
I bet that selection of
various kinds biases a little bit
77
00:04:02,975 --> 00:04:05,123
towards getting hold of those
analytical people.
78
00:04:05,319 --> 00:04:09,491
That goes a fair way, Mike, to
explaining some of my kind of jaded
79
00:04:09,523 --> 00:04:12,923
jokes about watching bunches
of consultants standing around a
80
00:04:12,939 --> 00:04:15,867
whiteboard with pens in their
hands trying to come up with ideas.
81
00:04:16,051 --> 00:04:19,579
Those are people whose first
puzzle solving approach is going
82
00:04:19,587 --> 00:04:22,475
to be the slow, methodical,
analytical version, not the flash
83
00:04:22,515 --> 00:04:23,475
of inspiration.
84
00:04:23,635 --> 00:04:24,467
There's also.
85
00:04:24,571 --> 00:04:28,163
While we're thinking about
traits and adaptation, there's a
86
00:04:28,179 --> 00:04:31,515
nice summary article and again
we'll put the link in the show Notes
87
00:04:31,635 --> 00:04:36,019
from Penn University says it's
possible to train and develop both
88
00:04:36,067 --> 00:04:36,643
traits.
89
00:04:36,779 --> 00:04:39,939
Whatever your starting point
is, practice and adaptation of being
90
00:04:39,987 --> 00:04:44,899
both analytical and creative
is a great way to learn to be a better
91
00:04:44,947 --> 00:04:48,455
communicator and a great way
to learn to be a better problem solver.
92
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So Mike, it sounds like we may
have a particular starting point
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as humans, but it's also
something that can be learned and
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built on and adapted away from
a little bit.
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00:05:06,345 --> 00:05:10,193
So Mike, analytical thinking,
what is it and where does it come
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from?
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Analytical thinking is needed
to break down complex problems into
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manageable components, clearly
to identify patterns or trends, and
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to develop logical evidence
based solutions.
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Along the path of doing that.
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We need analytical thinking to
evaluate options objectively and
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make sound recommendations.
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Very good.
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I like the breakdown there, Mike.
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And I'm already noticing that
in our main episode we talked about
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analytical thinking and I
think I sort of very cruelly reduced
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that to being good at spreadsheets.
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This word analytical is doing
a lot of heavy lifting here.
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You're talking about the
ability to use numbers, the ability
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to use analytical tools and
software to do reasoning, to see
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patterns and communicate.
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Communicate to an audience.
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All of these skills are mixed
up in this one word.
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And I'm sure I've been guilty
of conflating them a little bit.
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The Excel challenged analyst I
was talking about in my story in
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the main episode and dragging
the formulas across.
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He was probably actually a
great analytical thinker in all respects
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except for his competency in
the user interface of Microsoft Excel.
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Anyway, Mike, maybe we'll come
back to what that means for junior
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consultants later on.
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But Mike, let's stay with
analytical thinking for a second.
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Is there anything in books
that might shine a bit of a light
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on what analytical thinking
means and does for us in consulting?
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Well, if you Google somebody
who wants to get into consulting,
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what should they be reading?
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00:06:41,285 --> 00:06:45,879
Well, a lot of this comes
right back to all of this myriad
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books about how to crack the
case study interview.
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In other words, how to appear
to be a really good analytical.
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And that message is if you
really want to get even at the top
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strategy jobs, particularly at
the top strategy jobs, if you want
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to come in new to that firm,
you've really got to crack that interview.
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I went back even to one like
Victor Chang's case interview secrets.
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You know Chang, former
McKinsey consultant.
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His includes as we talk
through quantitative analysis, clear
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communication of reasoning and
breaking down problems as well.
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But it occurs to me that some
of this mastery, as you point out,
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is the mastery of what you
need to do well in an initial set
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of interviews, not necessarily
the mastery of what you need to do
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00:07:35,141 --> 00:07:39,341
well in actual consulting work
if you land the job.
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00:07:39,493 --> 00:07:42,973
I mean, just as a quick
snapshot, we can think that case
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based interviews focus on
speed, not necessarily depth.
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It's quickly structuring
thinking and rapid problem solving
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under time pressure, working
with more simplified scenarios, using
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perhaps more general business
concepts and problem solving frameworks.
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00:07:59,589 --> 00:08:04,653
But the job itself includes a
lot more than that, including working
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with a team and other things
and the complexity and ambiguity
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things.
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However, you can take that
idea and start thinking about, well,
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could I supplement that?
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So one example would be
critical thinking, your guide to
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effective argument, successful
analysis and independent study by
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Tom Chatfield.
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And Tom's book really helps
develop critical thinking skills
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by looking at things like
evaluating arguments, understanding
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reasoning types, recognizing
cognitive biases, assessing evidence,
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engaging opposing viewpoints,
identifying fallacies, questioning
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sources and questioning reasoning.
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Yours and others.
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Yeah, and it's really useful,
I think, to get Away from the just
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kind of blindly competitive,
do it fast and do it as speedily
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as you can.
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I can think of a few people in
my career I've met who haven't really
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00:09:01,096 --> 00:09:04,784
escaped from the interview
candidate model of being rather over
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00:09:04,824 --> 00:09:06,728
analytical and trying to do it
too fast.
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00:09:06,896 --> 00:09:10,367
So it's not just I think here
about the difference between in interview
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case books and approaches and
analytical skill books and approaches.
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If I think about how people
have evolved their skills over time
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in their careers as
consultants, in my career as a consultant,
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you have to learn how to deal
with deep analysis of complex problems.
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You have to learn the wide
range of tools and resources.
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And I think also you have to
learn not to get too attached to
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any one tool or any one
resource as I can remember doing
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dealing with messy data, you
know, partial, incomplete, slightly
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contradictory data, which is
not generally the kind of data that
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you suppose is available in
interview case type situations and
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doing that collaboratively.
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Right.
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And it's certainly true that
if you, if you go and interview to
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get hired by a self respecting
consulting firm, they will test your
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analytics, but they'll also
test your teamwork, sometimes more
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successfully than others.
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00:10:02,595 --> 00:10:06,227
I think this conversation is
taking us towards a point where we
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00:10:06,251 --> 00:10:09,035
have to own up and say, yeah,
analytics are important, but analytics
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00:10:09,075 --> 00:10:11,563
means more than just being
good at spreadsheets.
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00:10:11,739 --> 00:10:13,795
It interacts with creativity.
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00:10:13,835 --> 00:10:15,987
It also interacts with
teamwork, which isn't really a theme
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for today.
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00:10:16,923 --> 00:10:18,707
Ian, I'm fascinated.
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00:10:18,771 --> 00:10:22,283
Earlier you talked about the
articles you found about different
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00:10:22,339 --> 00:10:25,179
brain waves and different ways
of thinking.
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00:10:25,347 --> 00:10:26,811
Yes, thank you.
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This gives me the chance to
talk about one of my favorite recent
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00:10:30,435 --> 00:10:33,575
pieces of popular science and
behavioral economics.
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00:10:33,715 --> 00:10:36,631
Daniel Kahneman if you're
listening to this podcast, it's 5050
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00:10:36,663 --> 00:10:39,359
that you'll already have heard
about and read Daniel Kahneman's
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00:10:39,407 --> 00:10:41,599
really great book, Thinking
Fast and Slow.
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00:10:41,687 --> 00:10:44,495
He has another book as well
called Noise, which takes the topic
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00:10:44,535 --> 00:10:45,423
further along.
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00:10:45,599 --> 00:10:49,231
He's explaining and exploring
how we think and how we make decisions.
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00:10:49,383 --> 00:10:52,335
Mike earlier on we were
talking about biases and fallacies
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00:10:52,375 --> 00:10:56,119
and he's really unpacking
features of the way the human brain
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00:10:56,167 --> 00:10:58,835
works and how that drives
biases and fallacies.
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00:10:59,385 --> 00:11:02,993
It's not really a book about
how to be analytical, but I think
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00:11:03,009 --> 00:11:06,417
it is a book about how to
understand your analytical thought
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00:11:06,481 --> 00:11:09,385
process, the processes that
all humans go through.
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00:11:09,505 --> 00:11:14,041
Namely, he says we have a fast
route through problem solving which
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00:11:14,153 --> 00:11:18,153
our brain tries to follow
using intuition and shorthand and
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00:11:18,169 --> 00:11:18,889
heuristics.
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00:11:19,017 --> 00:11:22,065
And we have a slow route where
we're more deliberate and more Explicit
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00:11:22,105 --> 00:11:24,925
about reasoning and thinking
things out carefully.
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00:11:25,475 --> 00:11:29,875
And I think besides learning
these processes for ourselves, it's
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00:11:29,915 --> 00:11:32,867
going to be useful to
understand them so we can spot which
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00:11:32,931 --> 00:11:36,979
brain pathway we're typically
using, spot which brain pathways
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00:11:37,027 --> 00:11:40,575
our clients and our colleagues
are using, and understand the limitations,
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00:11:40,955 --> 00:11:43,075
understand that the biases and
the errors.
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00:11:43,115 --> 00:11:47,251
Because the big takeaway for
me from lots of this behavioral economics
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00:11:47,283 --> 00:11:52,335
and sort of neurobiology is we
can learn about these errors and
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00:11:52,375 --> 00:11:53,151
biases.
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00:11:53,303 --> 00:11:58,511
And it's really good to know
in advance what biases we and also
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00:11:58,583 --> 00:12:00,743
our clients might be prone to.
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00:12:00,839 --> 00:12:04,479
So, Mike, if folks out there
haven't tried Dan Kahneman yet, I
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00:12:04,487 --> 00:12:06,515
think he's well worth a look.
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00:12:13,855 --> 00:12:17,055
I love the ideas about why
analytical thinking might be required.
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00:12:17,215 --> 00:12:21,137
Let me try and break down why
creativity might be important for
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00:12:21,161 --> 00:12:23,125
somebody in a consulting job.
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Even though the thought makes
me roll my eyes a little bit, I guess
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it is true that clients
sometimes come to us asking for innovative
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ideas and novel approaches.
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They'll say, we've tried the
familiar thing and we need you to
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00:12:36,921 --> 00:12:39,561
help us find the new or
unfamiliar thing.
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00:12:39,753 --> 00:12:43,441
Falling a little bit into what
sounds like a cliche to think outside
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the box.
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00:12:44,081 --> 00:12:46,641
Now we have to talk later on
about thinking outside the box.
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It's a real thing, but
thinking in a way that gets us outside
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of what conventional wisdom brings.
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00:12:54,073 --> 00:12:57,409
Because again, being familiar
or being one dimensional might be
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a risk for us, for our clients.
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And I think also creativity is
going to be about adapting, adapting
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00:13:03,785 --> 00:13:06,393
to the different situations
that clients are faced with.
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Taking what we've learned in
one place and adapting it for another
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place and to be able to communicate.
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I think lots of communication
also has an element of creativity
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to it.
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00:13:16,187 --> 00:13:19,243
If I think of the people I've
known at work who are engaging in
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the way they communicated to
me, I would say.
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I would say they were.
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They were creative.
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I would say they had some
imagination as well.
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Yeah, I think this.
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00:13:28,003 --> 00:13:31,635
We've talked about why
creativity is required and whether
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00:13:31,755 --> 00:13:35,691
a client is coming for
innovative ideas and novel approaches,
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00:13:35,763 --> 00:13:38,051
or whether they're asking us
to think out of the box.
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And I certainly have some that
directed it that way.
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We found that this was always
a really important thing to think
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through when even when we were
just dealing with a client first
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coming to us.
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What's the question they are
asking or the problem they're teeing
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up, and what's the problem
that they should be asking?
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We've made the case for each
of these individually.
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What about the case for both
of them together?
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Well, I can certainly see, I
think I might need some more persuading,
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00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:11,933
but I can certainly see that
being able to communicate complex
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ideas is going to require both
logic and intuition, as you might
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say.
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I still think, though, and I
include myself in this because I
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don't think I qualify.
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I think it's very rare to find
consultants who are excellent at
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both analytical and creative thinking.
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And already the hypothesis of
can you get a perfect consultant.
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For me, I think it's still not
proven, but still I've seen plenty
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of people who I really admire
who are at least strong, have some
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capability in both areas.
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People who've designed user
experiences and, you know, digital
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tools for clients that combine
data and analytics with design and
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people in marketing engagements.
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Right.
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Trying to leverage insights
about consumers and customers and
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turn that into value messages
or narratives for a brand or for
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00:15:00,391 --> 00:15:00,975
a campaign.
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That's quite often the
everyday work of people that I would
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call consultants as well.
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Yeah.
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And I think for me, you've.
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You've kind of put the
spotlight on this, too.
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Even strategy consultants who
are oftentimes, you know, I mentioned,
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00:15:15,973 --> 00:15:19,501
I think in the radio show, the
Firm where the Rubber Meets the Clouds.
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I mean, not necessarily, as
you say, in the same person, but
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a team that can do both and
people who can work together, especially
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when, and I think this applies
for every consultant, unless you're
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incredibly good at one or the
other so good that you can, you know,
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00:15:34,913 --> 00:15:39,129
kind of play that alone, you
better at least have some facility
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in the other.
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It's interesting.
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It reminds me of Herbert
Simon's work on grandmasters in chess.
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And I can't help but wondering
as I'm sitting here, if perhaps we've
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00:15:50,569 --> 00:15:54,961
got this bias in consulting to
bring in analytical types, but over
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time, as they develop and
start seeing patterns again and again
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00:15:59,537 --> 00:16:04,225
and again, what seems like
that puzzle solver who has that flash
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of insight, in fact has
developed a repertoire of patterns
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and they can see that pattern.
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I want to come back to the
idea of repertoire and exposure in
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a couple of minutes because I
think there's something else on creativity
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there.
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Now, if you've got a question
or a comment about anything to do
305
00:16:26,727 --> 00:16:29,359
with the podcast, if you've
got a topic that you'd like to hear
306
00:16:29,407 --> 00:16:32,991
us discussing in one of our
deeper dives, you, our luminaries,
307
00:16:33,063 --> 00:16:35,423
are really welcome to contact us.
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00:16:35,559 --> 00:16:37,327
Easiest way is by email.
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00:16:37,511 --> 00:16:42,311
Consultingforhumans31-consulting.com we'd
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love to hear from you.
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We'd love to make this a show
about you and for you.
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Now, Mike, let's get back into creativity.
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Well, Ian, we've talked a lot
about analytical, we've talked a
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bit about brain processes.
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00:17:00,099 --> 00:17:02,379
So how about this creativity thing?
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Some of our analytics
listening might be going, yeah, that's
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00:17:05,171 --> 00:17:06,171
all smoke and mirrors.
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00:17:06,203 --> 00:17:08,411
That's a little bit of voodoo
or something.
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00:17:08,603 --> 00:17:12,827
Well, it's funny, it's easy to
think that, especially if you're
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00:17:12,851 --> 00:17:16,323
happy with the world of saying
my analytical skill is innate and
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00:17:16,339 --> 00:17:18,355
it's my core and it's where
I'm going to stay.
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00:17:18,515 --> 00:17:22,701
I suspect that we're going to
find that creativity is something
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00:17:22,853 --> 00:17:25,485
that we can learn besides just
being innate.
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00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:29,381
The natural place where I
think of as having a role for creative
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00:17:29,413 --> 00:17:31,741
thinking is whenever
consulting and professional services
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00:17:31,933 --> 00:17:36,477
strays into design or anything
that involves kind of creating new
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00:17:36,541 --> 00:17:37,145
stuff.
328
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:39,709
Mike, I think you've been
doing some reading there.
329
00:17:39,877 --> 00:17:43,749
Well, Ian, a really nice one
here on creativity, a book called
330
00:17:43,837 --> 00:17:48,005
Creative Confidence by Tom
Kelly and his brother David Kelly.
331
00:17:48,045 --> 00:17:53,075
I think those of you who know
these folks, they work closely together
332
00:17:53,155 --> 00:17:57,347
at the innovation design
consultancy ideo, who's worked from
333
00:17:57,491 --> 00:18:02,643
everything from product design
to big global problems.
334
00:18:02,779 --> 00:18:06,963
They talk about the fact that
you have to break through some myths
335
00:18:07,019 --> 00:18:10,763
here that creativity is not
limited to artistic types.
336
00:18:10,819 --> 00:18:15,691
It's a universal human ability
that can be developed.
337
00:18:15,763 --> 00:18:18,755
This is not something you're
born with or not born with that you
338
00:18:18,835 --> 00:18:21,843
have a brain that has, that's
wired for this or it isn't wired
339
00:18:21,899 --> 00:18:22,725
for this.
340
00:18:22,915 --> 00:18:28,721
So they use, not surprisingly,
design thinking, which includes steps
341
00:18:28,793 --> 00:18:34,977
like empathizing with users,
defining the problem, coming up with
342
00:18:35,081 --> 00:18:39,497
a number of different
prototypes, ideation you might call
343
00:18:39,521 --> 00:18:41,601
it, and then testing.
344
00:18:41,793 --> 00:18:46,817
So the required skills are not
completely separate from analytical
345
00:18:46,961 --> 00:18:47,725
ones.
346
00:18:48,195 --> 00:18:53,147
But they underscore that doing
this well requires that empathy that
347
00:18:53,171 --> 00:18:54,179
we talked about.
348
00:18:54,347 --> 00:18:57,499
And this creativity evolves.
349
00:18:57,587 --> 00:19:02,763
The more somebody goes through
these kinds of processes, it develops
350
00:19:02,899 --> 00:19:04,083
with practice.
351
00:19:04,219 --> 00:19:06,267
So they suggest that
consultants who want to build their
352
00:19:06,291 --> 00:19:11,795
creative capacity should view
their own lives and careers as design
353
00:19:11,915 --> 00:19:17,665
projects and constantly be
experimenting and iterating.
354
00:19:18,085 --> 00:19:22,357
They also suggest that it's
more than just us as individuals.
355
00:19:22,421 --> 00:19:26,733
They talk about a creative
culture fostered in teams that maintain
356
00:19:26,829 --> 00:19:28,165
a sense of humor.
357
00:19:28,285 --> 00:19:31,165
And it comes to my mind that
on some of the high pressure consulting
358
00:19:31,205 --> 00:19:36,005
engagements that I've been in,
especially those who were led by
359
00:19:36,045 --> 00:19:39,517
people schooled in kind of the
confidence, arrogance thing that
360
00:19:39,541 --> 00:19:43,341
we'll talk about at another
time sometimes might not be the best
361
00:19:43,453 --> 00:19:44,887
environment for, for this.
362
00:19:45,031 --> 00:19:45,935
Yeah, it's good.
363
00:19:46,015 --> 00:19:49,783
It's reassuring as well that
there are kind of team answers and
364
00:19:49,839 --> 00:19:53,327
process answers to how do you
get more creativity out of teams?
365
00:19:53,471 --> 00:19:55,991
Yeah, Very good, thank you.
366
00:19:56,143 --> 00:20:00,431
So I can remember looking into
the idea of techniques for creative
367
00:20:00,463 --> 00:20:03,471
thinking way back at the
beginning of my consulting career.
368
00:20:03,623 --> 00:20:06,983
I guess partly with the idea
in my head that I think I'm a fairly
369
00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:09,023
literal and sort of linear thinker.
370
00:20:09,079 --> 00:20:10,799
I've studied engineering in college.
371
00:20:10,847 --> 00:20:13,951
I worked in fairly
quantitative, fairly numbers, heavy
372
00:20:13,983 --> 00:20:16,315
versions of consulting in
quite a few different times.
373
00:20:17,035 --> 00:20:20,643
And I looked into an old
favorite and which I'll share with
374
00:20:20,699 --> 00:20:21,715
everybody right now.
375
00:20:21,835 --> 00:20:24,575
And I want to mention as well
something new that I came across.
376
00:20:24,995 --> 00:20:28,859
An old favorite is Edward de
Bono and any of his books.
377
00:20:28,947 --> 00:20:31,619
The most famous one, the one I
wanted to think about today, is lateral
378
00:20:31,667 --> 00:20:32,339
thinking.
379
00:20:32,507 --> 00:20:36,403
And Mike, this is one of those
moments where an old geezer says,
380
00:20:36,459 --> 00:20:37,347
kids these days.
381
00:20:37,451 --> 00:20:38,611
Kids these days know nothing.
382
00:20:38,683 --> 00:20:40,451
Kids these days haven't heard
of Edward de Bono.
383
00:20:40,483 --> 00:20:41,979
Or they think that that's kind of.
384
00:20:42,067 --> 00:20:45,003
That they've heard the
phrases, phrases like lateral thinking,
385
00:20:45,059 --> 00:20:47,419
like brainstorming, like
thinking outside the box.
386
00:20:47,547 --> 00:20:50,243
These are just turns of phrase
that are in everyday modern language.
387
00:20:50,339 --> 00:20:54,619
But they all originated back
in the 70s and 80s with the psychologist
388
00:20:54,667 --> 00:20:56,015
Edward de Bono.
389
00:20:57,795 --> 00:21:00,875
Lateral thinking, for example,
is a technique that he described
390
00:21:00,995 --> 00:21:04,027
as a way to get people to
stimulate their brains to work in
391
00:21:04,051 --> 00:21:05,707
a non analytical way.
392
00:21:05,811 --> 00:21:09,091
So he describes very
traditional analysis, you know, gathering
393
00:21:09,123 --> 00:21:12,267
of data and stacking up of
facts and influences.
394
00:21:12,411 --> 00:21:14,381
He calls that vertical thinking.
395
00:21:14,523 --> 00:21:17,041
And he's using the visual
metaphor and saying lateral thinking
396
00:21:17,073 --> 00:21:20,201
is to kind of go at right
angles to that and look at the world
397
00:21:20,233 --> 00:21:21,285
in a new way.
398
00:21:21,745 --> 00:21:25,193
Now I already knew about the
ideas of lateral thinking.
399
00:21:25,249 --> 00:21:26,889
It was great to get a reminder.
400
00:21:27,017 --> 00:21:30,209
I found a really interesting
technique for creativity.
401
00:21:30,377 --> 00:21:34,765
Further down in the book he
talks about the reversal principle.
402
00:21:35,465 --> 00:21:37,241
And I really like the reversal principle.
403
00:21:37,273 --> 00:21:40,697
It basically says you flip
around the problem that you're looking
404
00:21:40,721 --> 00:21:41,745
for a creative answer to.
405
00:21:41,785 --> 00:21:46,247
So for example, the problem is
that you want to go on holiday this
406
00:21:46,271 --> 00:21:49,135
summer, on vacation this
summer, but you don't know where.
407
00:21:49,255 --> 00:21:51,783
You're finding it hard to
generate some creative answers.
408
00:21:51,919 --> 00:21:54,175
So start with some reverse
creative answers.
409
00:21:54,335 --> 00:21:56,887
Where's the worst place you
could possibly go?
410
00:21:57,071 --> 00:21:59,007
Which, by the way, is a
creative brainstorm.
411
00:21:59,031 --> 00:22:00,515
I'd have lots of fun with.
412
00:22:00,895 --> 00:22:03,375
Where's the worst place you
could possibly go on holiday?
413
00:22:03,495 --> 00:22:05,927
And where would you go if it
was winter?
414
00:22:06,111 --> 00:22:09,295
So he's kind of trying to fill
in other bits of the creative space
415
00:22:09,335 --> 00:22:10,995
by using this reversal idea.
416
00:22:11,355 --> 00:22:12,571
I think it's really great.
417
00:22:12,603 --> 00:22:16,299
And if you've never read any
of Edward de Bono, there are books
418
00:22:16,387 --> 00:22:20,211
and blogs and, you know,
articles all over the Internet about
419
00:22:20,243 --> 00:22:21,211
Edward De Bono.
420
00:22:21,323 --> 00:22:25,635
He's very widely published and
very widely summarized and plagiarized
421
00:22:25,675 --> 00:22:26,655
from as well.
422
00:22:28,235 --> 00:22:32,691
You know, I've always loved De
Bono because I think you can get
423
00:22:32,763 --> 00:22:38,077
a handful like build your own
Swiss army knife of approaches that
424
00:22:38,261 --> 00:22:43,197
it never ceases to amaze how
useful they are in various situations,
425
00:22:43,261 --> 00:22:47,389
personal and professional, for
thinking differently about a problem
426
00:22:47,437 --> 00:22:48,665
or an opportunity.
427
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:53,853
Yeah, and the new reference
and the new set of ideas that I came
428
00:22:53,869 --> 00:22:57,269
across, actually it turned my
brain on because it related to something
429
00:22:57,397 --> 00:22:58,345
more personal.
430
00:22:58,645 --> 00:23:02,891
There's a book called the
Creative Curve by Alan Gannett.
431
00:23:03,003 --> 00:23:04,955
And actually lots of his
examples are from the.
432
00:23:04,995 --> 00:23:06,963
What you might call the
creative arts, writing and music.
433
00:23:07,019 --> 00:23:08,815
And music is a big passion of mine.
434
00:23:09,555 --> 00:23:13,251
And some of the book is
interesting, but not directly related
435
00:23:13,283 --> 00:23:16,131
to consulting because it talks
about where artistically creative
436
00:23:16,243 --> 00:23:18,295
ideas and impulses come from.
437
00:23:19,395 --> 00:23:23,955
But he does have some really
good insights into the origins of
438
00:23:23,995 --> 00:23:24,715
creativity.
439
00:23:24,835 --> 00:23:26,971
First of all, he points out
that there's been some research that
440
00:23:27,003 --> 00:23:31,321
says that high IQ above a
certain level doesn't correlate with
441
00:23:31,353 --> 00:23:32,153
creativity.
442
00:23:32,289 --> 00:23:37,841
So getting more smart people
in a room doesn't generate more creative
443
00:23:37,913 --> 00:23:39,885
ideas or answers or solutions.
444
00:23:40,745 --> 00:23:43,873
Instead, he says that
creativity is associated with purpose
445
00:23:43,929 --> 00:23:44,805
and experience.
446
00:23:45,745 --> 00:23:47,913
The purpose one, I think is
pretty familiar.
447
00:23:47,969 --> 00:23:51,945
It's the idea that you'll do a
better job with summoning up creative
448
00:23:51,985 --> 00:23:56,547
ideas if you could have a
really kind of crystal clear, almost
449
00:23:56,611 --> 00:23:58,667
provocative definition of the problem.
450
00:23:58,771 --> 00:24:01,571
So being good at defining
problems is a great way to stimulate
451
00:24:01,683 --> 00:24:02,979
people's creativity.
452
00:24:03,147 --> 00:24:05,731
Much more important than
simply having people around who've
453
00:24:05,763 --> 00:24:09,415
got crazy ideas or wear purple
hats or sit on bean bags.
454
00:24:10,435 --> 00:24:15,851
The second component was the
idea that experience drives creativity,
455
00:24:16,003 --> 00:24:19,123
which is interesting because I
often see people kind of trying to
456
00:24:19,139 --> 00:24:21,307
be creative and scratching
their heads, thinking of things that
457
00:24:21,331 --> 00:24:22,287
have worked before.
458
00:24:22,451 --> 00:24:26,247
But in that kind of thinking,
your experience is used as a reason
459
00:24:26,271 --> 00:24:27,795
to shut down creativity.
460
00:24:28,695 --> 00:24:31,463
But Gannett says actually
people who are very creative are
461
00:24:31,479 --> 00:24:35,155
the ones who have read and
consumed a huge amount of content.
462
00:24:35,855 --> 00:24:39,999
So have read or been around or
understood or analyzed many, many,
463
00:24:40,047 --> 00:24:43,087
many different versions of the
thing that you're thinking about.
464
00:24:43,271 --> 00:24:47,079
So, for example, if you want
lots of ideas for solutions of, say,
465
00:24:47,207 --> 00:24:51,925
how to develop an IT system
for a chain of fitness gyms, you
466
00:24:51,965 --> 00:24:56,173
need in the team not only
smart people, but more importantly,
467
00:24:56,269 --> 00:24:59,725
people who have seen or read
or done a lot to do with fitness
468
00:24:59,765 --> 00:25:04,745
gyms and people who've seen or
read or done a lot to do with it.
469
00:25:05,685 --> 00:25:09,741
So we can enhance our creative
potential by making sure that we
470
00:25:09,773 --> 00:25:13,013
read a lot, that we Just feed
our brain, feed our curiosity and
471
00:25:13,029 --> 00:25:15,789
let it build up a mental data bank.
472
00:25:15,917 --> 00:25:19,879
Not a structured database with
query terms, just a mental data bank.
473
00:25:20,007 --> 00:25:22,927
A collective memory of all the
things that you've seen and thought
474
00:25:22,951 --> 00:25:23,159
about.
475
00:25:23,207 --> 00:25:26,655
Even if it was somebody else's
situation or somebody else's solution
476
00:25:26,735 --> 00:25:27,479
that you've read about.
477
00:25:27,527 --> 00:25:30,151
And I think that's a great
reason for us to keep reading blogs
478
00:25:30,183 --> 00:25:32,655
and newspapers and articles
and industry news.
479
00:25:32,775 --> 00:25:35,751
Not only because we find out
what's up to date, but we're feeding
480
00:25:35,783 --> 00:25:38,327
our data bank of what's
possible as well.
481
00:25:38,511 --> 00:25:42,719
Yeah, and I think it's a great
reason for the exchange of knowledge
482
00:25:42,807 --> 00:25:45,631
across consultancies and
across individuals.
483
00:25:45,703 --> 00:25:51,511
Not just in the structured
what can we go query this database,
484
00:25:51,623 --> 00:25:56,871
but again building on that, if
you will, pattern recognition and
485
00:25:56,903 --> 00:25:59,591
that big set of content of
things that we have.
486
00:25:59,703 --> 00:26:03,127
I was talking about Simon and
pattern recognition and I think this
487
00:26:03,151 --> 00:26:07,215
is part of getting to the same
thing, this idea of saying there's
488
00:26:07,295 --> 00:26:10,335
lots of experience in that
data bank.
489
00:26:10,455 --> 00:26:14,215
You know, it's interesting
because a book I read called the
490
00:26:14,255 --> 00:26:19,247
Hidden Habits of Genius by
Craig Wright kind of deepens and
491
00:26:19,351 --> 00:26:22,695
democratizes what's needed to
develop creativity.
492
00:26:22,815 --> 00:26:26,319
There's this idea that
breakthroughs are often the result
493
00:26:26,407 --> 00:26:34,127
of complex thinking processes
combined with lengthy gestation periods.
494
00:26:34,271 --> 00:26:38,175
They're not these eureka
moments that we sometimes think,
495
00:26:38,215 --> 00:26:39,719
oh God, I wish I could do that.
496
00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:42,563
Well, you know, that's kind of
like that 20 year over overnight
497
00:26:42,619 --> 00:26:45,707
success that you have
sometimes here.
498
00:26:45,851 --> 00:26:47,883
One day, Mike, I'm going to
wake up and it'll turn out I've been
499
00:26:47,899 --> 00:26:49,411
a 55 year overnight success.
500
00:26:49,483 --> 00:26:52,331
But exactly, exactly.
501
00:26:52,403 --> 00:26:52,755
So.
502
00:26:52,835 --> 00:26:53,787
Right, exactly.
503
00:26:53,851 --> 00:26:58,555
That instead that success
comes from cultivating specific habits
504
00:26:58,635 --> 00:27:05,275
like curiosity and really kind
of reinforcing what you just said,
505
00:27:05,315 --> 00:27:09,555
Ian, a real obsession to
enhance creative thinking by learning
506
00:27:09,635 --> 00:27:11,683
from diverse examples.
507
00:27:11,819 --> 00:27:15,871
I mean, I remember Roger's
arrangement, original kind of foundational
508
00:27:15,943 --> 00:27:19,593
book on innovation, you know,
clearly pointing out that about 80%
509
00:27:19,697 --> 00:27:23,220
of innovation is the diffusion
of innovations.
510
00:27:23,324 --> 00:27:27,455
80% comes from real well known
practices in other industries and
511
00:27:27,495 --> 00:27:29,703
cultures just being shed around.
512
00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:31,615
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
513
00:27:31,775 --> 00:27:35,927
This other point that's,
that's often been helpful to me is
514
00:27:35,991 --> 00:27:39,679
focusing on people in groups
that are different, that are often
515
00:27:39,767 --> 00:27:41,747
overlooked but successful.
516
00:27:41,811 --> 00:27:44,123
What you might call a positive deviant.
517
00:27:44,259 --> 00:27:45,483
Right, exactly.
518
00:27:45,539 --> 00:27:49,315
As you had said, argues you
have to look beyond just what we
519
00:27:49,395 --> 00:27:51,651
normally think of in a
successful consultant.
520
00:27:51,683 --> 00:27:55,003
It's not just talent, IQ and grit.
521
00:27:55,179 --> 00:27:59,307
There's a more holistic
approach to creativity and to becoming
522
00:27:59,411 --> 00:28:03,855
an exceptional consultant as
well as an exceptional individual.
523
00:28:04,555 --> 00:28:08,095
So Mike, we've got some themes
coming out of these books here.
524
00:28:08,565 --> 00:28:12,245
Creativity is a skill that can
be developed, and I think we've always
525
00:28:12,365 --> 00:28:15,773
known all along that
analytical skill and reasoning is
526
00:28:15,789 --> 00:28:16,861
a skill that can be developed.
527
00:28:16,933 --> 00:28:20,133
But creativity is not just a
flash in the pan like you say, it
528
00:28:20,149 --> 00:28:21,013
can be developed.
529
00:28:21,109 --> 00:28:23,253
There's deliberate practice
that we can work up.
530
00:28:23,349 --> 00:28:25,985
There are mindset shifts that
can help us.
531
00:28:26,285 --> 00:28:27,717
We do still need structure.
532
00:28:27,781 --> 00:28:31,141
Like we said, structured
definition of a problem stimulates
533
00:28:31,173 --> 00:28:33,429
us to produce creative answers
to the problem.
534
00:28:33,597 --> 00:28:35,637
Understanding context helps
with that.
535
00:28:35,781 --> 00:28:38,277
Getting a deep understanding
of needs and a deep understanding
536
00:28:38,301 --> 00:28:40,897
of the canon of things that
you've seen and expert, experienced,
537
00:28:41,001 --> 00:28:46,217
all really important for us as
consultants, I guess, as well as
538
00:28:46,241 --> 00:28:49,385
thinking about ourselves and
the consulting team that we're working
539
00:28:49,425 --> 00:28:52,365
in, we should think about our
clients and our customers as well.
540
00:28:52,705 --> 00:28:54,161
There's a whole other context there.
541
00:28:54,193 --> 00:28:56,513
There's a whole range of
experience that they've had.
542
00:28:56,689 --> 00:29:00,385
And I know, Mike, you and I
have exhorted consultants many times
543
00:29:00,425 --> 00:29:03,225
in the past to turn to their
clients when it comes to creating
544
00:29:03,265 --> 00:29:06,361
new ideas and not just to sort
of stay in the bunker and hope that
545
00:29:06,393 --> 00:29:08,285
ideas come to them.
546
00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:11,973
And for me, and we've worked
on this together in projects and
547
00:29:11,989 --> 00:29:17,509
stuff, it also includes not
just your client, but this broader
548
00:29:17,557 --> 00:29:23,029
set of stakeholders that
create and divide value in any situation.
549
00:29:23,157 --> 00:29:26,733
Who are the people interacting
here that I can understand more about?
550
00:29:26,829 --> 00:29:31,917
See that bigger picture more
creatively and analytically in order
551
00:29:31,941 --> 00:29:33,345
to get to a better solution?
552
00:29:33,845 --> 00:29:35,053
Yeah, I see.
553
00:29:35,109 --> 00:29:38,221
It's a really good tangent
into the power and the importance
554
00:29:38,253 --> 00:29:40,829
of understanding stakeholders,
which I'm sure we'll talk about at
555
00:29:40,837 --> 00:29:41,733
some other point.
556
00:29:41,869 --> 00:29:44,149
It's really tempting for
consultants to say, well, I'm going
557
00:29:44,157 --> 00:29:47,757
to work for the person who's
giving me the facts and setting my
558
00:29:47,781 --> 00:29:50,405
objective and paying my bill,
and to treat that as just one person
559
00:29:50,445 --> 00:29:54,221
and one perspective, which is
great, but you don't learn very much.
560
00:29:54,413 --> 00:29:57,853
And lots of what we've learned
is from the broader range of people
561
00:29:57,909 --> 00:29:59,225
standing behind our clients.
562
00:29:59,635 --> 00:30:02,803
So working for big, complex
client organizations isn't just a
563
00:30:02,819 --> 00:30:03,395
pain in the ass.
564
00:30:03,435 --> 00:30:04,771
It's actually a chance to
learn as well.
565
00:30:04,803 --> 00:30:05,459
If you can.
566
00:30:05,587 --> 00:30:07,535
If you can find a way to
listen out for it.
567
00:30:07,875 --> 00:30:08,935
Absolutely.
568
00:30:14,235 --> 00:30:17,355
So, Mike, it feels like we're
making good progress through this
569
00:30:17,395 --> 00:30:19,987
story about analytics and creativity.
570
00:30:20,171 --> 00:30:22,027
Give us some final thoughts here.
571
00:30:22,171 --> 00:30:26,085
What kind of things do we need
to be on the lookout for as professionals
572
00:30:26,205 --> 00:30:29,733
to keep honing our analytical
and our creative skills?
573
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:31,261
It's not about being the best.
574
00:30:31,333 --> 00:30:34,465
It's about being better than I
was yesterday.
575
00:30:35,605 --> 00:30:39,341
So in that spirit, there are
lots of things, as you say, Ian,
576
00:30:39,373 --> 00:30:40,933
we can be doing on the job.
577
00:30:40,989 --> 00:30:43,813
We can practice both
convergent, I.e.
578
00:30:43,869 --> 00:30:46,141
analytical and divergent
creative thinking.
579
00:30:46,173 --> 00:30:52,149
When approaching problems, we
can seek out diverse project experiences
580
00:30:52,197 --> 00:30:54,501
that require different skill sets.
581
00:30:54,533 --> 00:30:57,391
So again, you know, stepping a
little bit out of our comfort zone
582
00:30:57,463 --> 00:31:02,639
sometimes to expand and learn,
we can collaborate with colleagues
583
00:31:02,727 --> 00:31:08,919
who have complementary
strengths and actively solicit feedback
584
00:31:08,967 --> 00:31:14,367
on both the rigor and the
innovativeness of our work.
585
00:31:14,511 --> 00:31:17,551
Those are on the job things we
can do and I think they're off the
586
00:31:17,583 --> 00:31:19,271
job things as well.
587
00:31:19,463 --> 00:31:23,523
Yeah, it's funny, I've taken a
lot from this about off the job and
588
00:31:23,539 --> 00:31:25,827
it's inspired me to do a bit
more thinking for myself.
589
00:31:26,011 --> 00:31:29,387
Keeping your brain fresh,
continue to read and reflect and
590
00:31:29,411 --> 00:31:32,291
learn and keep exposing
yourself to new cultures.
591
00:31:32,363 --> 00:31:34,547
I mean, one of the
difficulties about working in our
592
00:31:34,571 --> 00:31:37,979
profession is that we, we stay
in a particular part of a particular
593
00:31:38,067 --> 00:31:42,523
kind of, kind of post
industrial, relatively comfortable,
594
00:31:42,579 --> 00:31:44,251
relatively privileged western culture.
595
00:31:44,323 --> 00:31:48,619
And that's, that's going to,
for all sorts of reasons, going to
596
00:31:48,627 --> 00:31:49,211
be bad for us.
597
00:31:49,243 --> 00:31:52,249
But one particular reason
could be that it might lead us to
598
00:31:52,257 --> 00:31:53,841
have a narrow range of experience.
599
00:31:53,993 --> 00:31:56,329
Couldn't agree more with you, Ian.
600
00:31:56,497 --> 00:31:59,921
Well, I think clearly by
consciously developing and integrating
601
00:31:59,993 --> 00:32:05,161
both analytical and creative
capabilities, consultants enhance
602
00:32:05,233 --> 00:32:07,697
their problem solving skills.
603
00:32:07,841 --> 00:32:10,841
And I think the same
translates for humans.
604
00:32:10,953 --> 00:32:12,465
Listen, it's been a great show.
605
00:32:12,505 --> 00:32:14,617
I want to thank the listeners
for being with us today.
606
00:32:14,761 --> 00:32:18,133
If you've enjoyed your first
time as a luminary, then thank you
607
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:19,165
for being here.
608
00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:23,669
Please give us a like, please
give us a review, maybe even tell
609
00:32:23,717 --> 00:32:25,621
a friend that you've enjoyed
the show.
610
00:32:25,693 --> 00:32:28,549
We've got our next regular
episode probably out there already
611
00:32:28,637 --> 00:32:29,389
for you to enjoy.
612
00:32:29,437 --> 00:32:31,101
If not, it'll be there very soon.
613
00:32:31,253 --> 00:32:35,829
And coming up in our next
Luminaries episode, Mike, we're going
614
00:32:35,837 --> 00:32:39,357
to be talking about the
balance between humility and confidence
615
00:32:39,421 --> 00:32:42,725
and talking about self
knowledge and life skill and how
616
00:32:42,765 --> 00:32:46,069
they might relate to
consulting, how they might help us
617
00:32:46,237 --> 00:32:50,637
to maybe take baby steps
towards this idea of a perfect consultant.
618
00:32:50,821 --> 00:32:53,501
Thank you then for being a
luminary with us and we're looking
619
00:32:53,533 --> 00:32:56,445
forward to shedding a little
bit more light together next.
