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Foreign.
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Welcome, luminaries.
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We're so glad you've joined us.
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Congratulations on being part
of the luminary community.
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Mike, tell us a little bit
about what's going to be on our agenda
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for the luminaries today.
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Go.
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Be delighted to.
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Ian.
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In our main episode, we've
been discussing the wise writings
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of consultant and computer
scientist Gerald Weinberg.
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We heard Jerry talk about his
third time charm rule and also the
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see what isn't there rule in
the main episode.
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But there's a lot more to
cover in this fabulous book.
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There really is.
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And some takeaways for us, I
think, in consulting life too.
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Now, one of the things that
caught our eye was the way Weinberg
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had put together some rules.
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He called them secrets for
consultants based on, as he described
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it, the thoughts of his
brother in law, Marvin.
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Marvin, it turns out, is a
physician, a doctor, said by Weinberg
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to be wise but also cynical.
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And Mike, I think anytime I
hear there's advice coming from,
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from somebody who's wise and
cynical, that kind of stuff earns
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a place, I think, on
consulting for humans and on the
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luminaries.
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So, Mike, you and I have
talked with clients over the years
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about the similarities between
consulting and medicine.
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So I'm looking forward to this one.
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I will say just this.
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Consultants and doctors alike
are basically garage mechanics.
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And I'm looking forward to how
we can dig into that and unearth
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the similarities a little bit
here now, Mike, but let's think about
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what we might expect from
doctors here in the 21st century
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and to what extent that might
play out with consultants.
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Which diagnostic checks will
your insurance cover?
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Okay, we'll do all of them.
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We've heard that happen from
time to time from acquisitive doctors.
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That's kind of the same as a
consultant saying, which PowerPoint
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slides do you need?
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You're not sure?
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I'm going to give you all of
them and charge you for every single
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one.
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Right, right.
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Well, one that perhaps I've
discovered before with doctors.
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I'm not sure if we can do this
as consultants.
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Maybe at some level, high
level consultants do this.
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This problem really isn't my specialty.
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You need somebody who does X.
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And that'll be $7,500, please.
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Mike.
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By the way, in our show notes
here, I'd written $750, but you've
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just stuck your finger on the
problem of health care in the U.S.
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actually, it should have been
a zero.
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Wow.
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I sold the 750 and I
translated it.
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I mean, 750 bought you a
Tylenol in the emergency room about
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50, 15 years ago.
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20 years ago here.
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Right.
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And Mike, maybe even a
physician might say, if they were
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thinking like a consultant,
the most cost effective solutions
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these days are imported from Canada.
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That would be cool as well,
wouldn't it?
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Right, right.
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Hence the desire to make them
a 51st state, which we won't even
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go there.
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So, Mike, in this Luminaries
episode, we're going to go through
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the medical secrets learned
from brother in law Marvin.
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Which ones are going to be
useful for us in consulting?
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Which ones have or have not
stood the test of time.
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This is going to get us
thinking about whether it helps or
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doesn't help to be thought of
as a specialist.
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It's going to get us thinking
about the pitfalls of believing that
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consultants can cure anything.
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It's going to get us thinking
about the value of knowing how to
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implement your own advice or
as you might say, Mike, how to take
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your own medicine.
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Let's see what we can learn
from this.
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Nice.
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You know, and taking your own
medicine being certainly different
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than breathing your own exhaust.
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Well, we'll see.
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Let's get into it.
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Ian.
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I found it really interesting
that Weinberg is discussing these
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secrets from his, his brother
in law Marvin as part of a discussion
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on being a fake effective when
you don't know what you're doing.
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As he says, sometimes being
out of your kind of out of your area
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and out of your depth here.
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But it's also a discussion
about the fact that, as he says,
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consultants usually start as
specialists and are often called
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in as specialists.
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But the problem with that is
that the toughest problems don't
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have labels attached to them.
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So oftentimes, and he
estimates it's at least three quarters
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of the time, the specialists
that are called in are not actually
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the specialists needed for
this job.
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It's like if I really knew
what the problem was, I might have
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called somebody differently.
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However, good consultants, he
says, aren't just specialists, they're
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problem solvers.
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And they have a bag of tricks
that can actually be generalized
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across multiple different specialties.
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Just expressed a little bit differently.
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And I want to tell a little
bit of a story about how I ran into
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that specifically and in the
medical industry.
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And then let's get into these
things and unpack them a little bit.
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So I ran into this with my
daughter Meredith, and it was in
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the early days, well, kind,
kind of pre, the early days of Lyme
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disease.
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Lyme was known, but not widely
known and, you know, the fatal thing
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of anything in the US There
was not an insurance payback because
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there wasn't a diagnosis code.
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So she went over the course of
many months to many specialists.
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And what I found was exactly
the joke that I made earlier.
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The specialist who says, yep,
not mine.
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Here's your bill, good luck.
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And what we ran into was a
specialist who could act like a generalist.
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And even more near and dear to
my heart, somebody who was a consultant
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who also was a human.
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Now, the humanity, I think
was, was kind of brought to the fore
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because Meredith reminded him
of his daughter, same age, shared
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a lot of characteristics.
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So I think even though it in
his area, quote unquote, he didn't
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see anything.
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He gathered all the tests, all
the diagnosis, all the comments from
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all the other specialists and
then tried to piece them together,
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that problem solver and apply
more generalist rubrics to say, well,
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wait a minute, what fits?
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What doesn't fit?
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You know, what, what are we
seeing here?
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And actually came across some
things that got us going towards
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a real solution there here.
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So these characteristics of
good consultants, absolutely on target
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from Jerry.
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And even better when we're
humans consulting to humans here.
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Well, fantastic.
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Let's get back to Marvin
secrets, Ian.
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Right, Mike, let's read them
out all together as a block of 6,
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and then we will dig into them individually.
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So let's give you an idea of
where we're headed with Marvin secrets.
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Secret number one.
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90% of all illness cures
itself with absolutely no intervention
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from the doctor.
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That's going to shake things
up a little bit, Mike, in the world
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of consulting.
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How about secret number two?
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Secret number two, I'd say
deal gently with systems that should
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be able to cure themselves.
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Expressed this way repeatedly.
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Curing a system that can cure
itself will eventually create a system
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that can't.
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Hmm.
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Okay, again, that might put a
cat amongst a few consulting pigeons.
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Secret number three, in the
world of medicine says every prescription
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has two parts, the medicine
itself and the method of ensuring
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correct use.
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Ah, okay, I'm hearing some
consulting advice coming through
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here.
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Secret number four.
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What does that say?
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Yeah, it says if what they've
been doing hasn't solved the problem,
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tell them to do something else.
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Oh, okay.
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Secret number five.
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I like this one.
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Make sure they pay you enough
so that they'll do what you say.
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Which is not something I'd
expect to hear from a doctor in my
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world, but I think in your
world, Mike, it could well be.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And, well, I'm reminded of
somebody we worked with in Ireland
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who said his grandmother was
really upset because under the new
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in health insurance she was
going to have, there was going to
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be no charge for some things.
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And she said, well that's ridiculous.
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If they don't charge me
something, I won't take it.
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And I thought, wow, wise
woman, wise woman here.
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Anyways, the last one is
secret number six.
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Know how pays much less than
know when.
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Oh, right.
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So we're going to be thinking
about clients attitudes to consultants,
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consultants attitude to
clients, problems and everybody's
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attitude to each other.
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There's going to be something
for us learn, I think a little bit
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from Marvin.
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These are all expressed, as
you say Mike, in terms of the world
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of a physician.
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Clearly the idea is that lots
of these aphorisms stand true for
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engineers, accountants,
lawyers, and of course the subject
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of the book, consultants.
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So let's hear me go through
them one by one, let's decode them
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a little bit.
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Let's get into it.
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You remember number one here,
90% of all illnesses cure themselves
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with absolutely no
intervention from a doctor.
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So in a doctor's world, as
long as you in fact do no harm, the
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illness is likely to cure itself.
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So if I was listening to an
engineering consultant with a lot
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of great insight and
experience, they might say if it
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ain't broke, don't fix it.
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No.
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And a system that's not broken
will fix itself.
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Right.
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Which sounds like a very Zen
enlightened approach to medicine
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and to humans.
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I wonder how it applies to
consulting projects.
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When I first read this I
thought, yeah, hahaha, there's a
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salutary lesson for
consultants not to be too optimistic
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about the value of what
they're going to do.
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If you're a client and you've
just spent a million on consultants,
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and then the problem got better.
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This law of regression to the
mean that things fix themselves,
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this law means that it may
well be that the million that you
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spent didn't cause the
improvement, that you don't know
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whether it actually paid back
or not.
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But I want to go to the other
side of the equation, Mike.
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He's saying 90% of problems
get better by themselves.
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That says if I'm a consultant
charging for advice, it's going to
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really help me and the client.
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If I'm sure as we get started
that the problem we're working on
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right now is one of those 10%
that for sure won't get better by
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itself.
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So there's real value in
knowing the diagnosis.
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I think this is going to be a
theme through quite a few of these
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bits of advice here.
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So we should be skeptical of
easy Claims from consultants that
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they at some time in the past
have saved the day.
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But as consultants, we also
need to be careful and serious about
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taking part in the diagnosis,
really understanding what are the
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consequences of the problems
that we uncover.
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What are the benefits?
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What some people sometimes
call addressing the so what?
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Question.
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Well, and it's interesting to
me, I don't want to roll over that,
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but it also reminded me of the
old consulting joke that consultants
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come in, borrow your watch and
tell you the time.
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Yeah.
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But if we assume that the
client's confused about the time,
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and in fact they borrow your
watches, tell you the time, and you
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now are no longer confused, they.
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That's really helpful.
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And I think sometimes that's
exactly what happens.
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That rather than having to
make great big changes, the fact
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00:12:04,654 --> 00:12:10,182
that people came in, people
listen, people consolidated it, got
246
00:12:10,206 --> 00:12:15,430
fed back from a third party
objective source, it actually now
247
00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:17,078
works when it didn't before.
248
00:12:17,214 --> 00:12:21,590
But as you say, there is a
great warning to take away here because
249
00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:24,614
of that 10% that is not gonna
cure itself.
250
00:12:24,742 --> 00:12:26,250
Yeah, absolutely.
251
00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:30,646
So now that we've dealt with
problems that might fix themselves,
252
00:12:30,838 --> 00:12:32,198
let's dig a little bit deeper.
253
00:12:32,214 --> 00:12:34,998
Let's go up to the level of
the organization, because Marvin's
254
00:12:35,014 --> 00:12:37,330
secret number two is up at
that level.
255
00:12:37,710 --> 00:12:40,822
One phrasing of it says you
should deal gently with systems that
256
00:12:40,846 --> 00:12:41,766
can cure themselves.
257
00:12:41,878 --> 00:12:44,390
The consequence of this,
though, the real secret number two
258
00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:45,206
says this.
259
00:12:45,358 --> 00:12:51,158
Repeatedly curing a system
that can cure itself will eventually
260
00:12:51,254 --> 00:12:52,970
create a system that can't.
261
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:56,686
And I first read this and I
thought, this is trying to repeat
262
00:12:56,718 --> 00:13:00,686
the lesson of, you know,
medication resistance in antibiotics
263
00:13:00,718 --> 00:13:01,070
or something.
264
00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:02,558
How does that relate to consulting?
265
00:13:02,654 --> 00:13:07,694
But actually it is possible,
right, for us to repeatedly lure
266
00:13:07,742 --> 00:13:10,526
the client into thinking that
what they really need next is another
267
00:13:10,598 --> 00:13:13,130
fancy solution from us of the
other next problem.
268
00:13:13,510 --> 00:13:16,942
Yeah, I remember so clearly.
269
00:13:17,086 --> 00:13:22,014
And this, this came to me when
we were bidding for a piece of strategy
270
00:13:22,062 --> 00:13:25,898
work from a firm that was kind
of outside our specialties.
271
00:13:26,074 --> 00:13:30,954
It was a really top global company.
272
00:13:31,122 --> 00:13:34,234
And I was thinking we were
kind of brand new to the strategy
273
00:13:34,282 --> 00:13:34,842
piece of work.
274
00:13:34,866 --> 00:13:36,106
We weren't well known.
275
00:13:36,178 --> 00:13:39,978
How in the world, you know,
are we really just a third bid here?
276
00:13:40,034 --> 00:13:42,346
You know, kind of procurements
right off.
277
00:13:42,498 --> 00:13:48,570
But it was fascinating to me
that this company had used the same
278
00:13:48,690 --> 00:13:54,156
boutique consulting firm over
and over again in some really big
279
00:13:54,228 --> 00:13:55,840
strategy decisions.
280
00:13:56,980 --> 00:13:58,332
They were kind of famous.
281
00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:02,588
They were the stuff of a
Harvard business case study.
282
00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:06,956
They were also the stuff of
books written by the consulting firm.
283
00:14:07,068 --> 00:14:10,412
But the interesting thing is,
if you continued on to follow the
284
00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:15,004
rest of the story, this firm
always ended up in the ditch again.
285
00:14:15,092 --> 00:14:19,228
You know, another year or two
or three down and they would call
286
00:14:19,284 --> 00:14:23,180
their saviors the boutique
consulting firm in again.
287
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,900
Brand new, big win.
288
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,896
But boom, you follow ahead
again, back in the ditch again.
289
00:14:31,048 --> 00:14:35,312
So our pitch to get the
strategy was to point this out and
290
00:14:35,336 --> 00:14:39,120
it had happened over a long
period of time and you had to kind
291
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,840
of look at that and have the
memory to think back to realize,
292
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,312
what's this pattern now these
high points are always followed by
293
00:14:47,336 --> 00:14:48,224
these low points.
294
00:14:48,312 --> 00:14:52,480
And I do think it was a case
of exactly what you've just said
295
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,230
and that that pitch in fact
won us that business, right?
296
00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,382
Weaning your client off this
kind of codependent savior thing
297
00:15:00,406 --> 00:15:03,486
that they've got going on with
the other really, really fancy consulting
298
00:15:03,518 --> 00:15:04,110
firm.
299
00:15:04,270 --> 00:15:07,118
This is sort of the dark side
of the consulting industry.
300
00:15:07,254 --> 00:15:11,230
So I guess I don't want people
to think this is a risk around every
301
00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:14,078
corner, but it is a risk where
there's a long term relationship
302
00:15:14,094 --> 00:15:15,614
with one consulting firm.
303
00:15:15,742 --> 00:15:20,936
And we find ourselves
repeatedly getting not only deeply
304
00:15:20,968 --> 00:15:23,848
embedded in the organization
and being trusted, which is great,
305
00:15:23,984 --> 00:15:27,448
but in effect teaching the
leaders and teaching the organization
306
00:15:27,624 --> 00:15:30,632
to not only that they can't
help themselves, but that they are
307
00:15:30,656 --> 00:15:33,944
going to be triggered to
stumble into a series of new problems,
308
00:15:33,992 --> 00:15:37,224
each of them requiring yet
more outside consulting help.
309
00:15:37,312 --> 00:15:41,096
There are books written about
these kind of toxic consultant client
310
00:15:41,128 --> 00:15:41,752
relationships.
311
00:15:41,816 --> 00:15:44,404
Like I say, Mike, I think they
are the minority, but.
312
00:15:44,432 --> 00:15:46,524
But it's a salutary thing to
think about.
313
00:15:46,692 --> 00:15:49,628
Hopefully none of us is going
to end up there that often.
314
00:15:49,684 --> 00:15:52,748
But history says it's not impossible.
315
00:15:52,924 --> 00:15:56,988
I can remember in a firm that
I worked with one particular client
316
00:15:57,084 --> 00:15:58,652
really, really badly needed help.
317
00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:04,812
They got into a big regulatory
mess and they hired the firm that
318
00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:08,076
I was working for via one
particular partner to do all manner
319
00:16:08,108 --> 00:16:10,524
of things to help get them
back on track after this regulatory
320
00:16:10,572 --> 00:16:11,200
problem.
321
00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:15,112
And a regulatory problem
ballooned into being some manufacturing
322
00:16:15,176 --> 00:16:17,896
problems and some research
problems and some marketing problems.
323
00:16:17,928 --> 00:16:22,872
And all of a sudden there were
billable hours through the roof.
324
00:16:22,936 --> 00:16:25,992
And there were many shiny
rental cars in the parking lot of
325
00:16:26,016 --> 00:16:29,176
this particular firm, all
occupied by consultants who are piling
326
00:16:29,208 --> 00:16:31,624
in to fix all of these great
and important problems.
327
00:16:31,752 --> 00:16:36,120
Until one day the CEO of this
company finally got the sack.
328
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,436
And the new CEO came and said,
what are all these great big invoices
329
00:16:39,468 --> 00:16:41,468
that I'm getting billed here
from this consulting firm?
330
00:16:41,564 --> 00:16:44,796
And who are all the folks in
the shiny rental cars in the parking
331
00:16:44,828 --> 00:16:45,308
lot?
332
00:16:45,444 --> 00:16:50,220
And it took an emperor's New
clothes kind of moment to say, hold
333
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:50,956
on a minute.
334
00:16:51,068 --> 00:16:53,100
We've got two dependent on
each other here.
335
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,524
Rather than fixing the
problem, we are continuously extending
336
00:16:56,572 --> 00:17:00,364
the problem profitably, but
not properly.
337
00:17:00,492 --> 00:17:00,940
Yeah.
338
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,688
Jerry makes a passing comment
in this section, and I think it's
339
00:17:04,704 --> 00:17:05,104
so true.
340
00:17:05,152 --> 00:17:08,400
They said, not only are
consultants guilty of this, not only
341
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,376
are doctors guilty of this,
any parent that continues to wipe
342
00:17:11,408 --> 00:17:14,528
their child's nose past the
age four is guilty of this right
343
00:17:14,584 --> 00:17:15,952
to learn to wipe their own nose.
344
00:17:16,016 --> 00:17:16,576
Right.
345
00:17:16,728 --> 00:17:20,672
And as anybody, you know, I'm
thinking back to my days in teaching
346
00:17:20,736 --> 00:17:24,368
at university and in the
business school, seeing these really
347
00:17:24,424 --> 00:17:27,840
capable young people whose
parents are now intervening on their
348
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,328
behalf, something about their
career or class choice or something
349
00:17:31,384 --> 00:17:33,340
going, stop, please stop.
350
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,936
Well, in number three, every
prescription has two parts, the medicine
351
00:17:41,968 --> 00:17:45,900
and the method of ensuring the
correct use.
352
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:53,744
And I can't help but remember,
you know, walking into clients who've
353
00:17:53,792 --> 00:17:55,088
asked us to come in.
354
00:17:55,224 --> 00:17:57,744
We've done, you know, work
with them before.
355
00:17:57,832 --> 00:18:02,040
They're inviting us in
sometimes, no bidding to come do
356
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,096
work for them again.
357
00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:07,512
And we're having that initial
great, good to see you again conversation.
358
00:18:07,656 --> 00:18:13,288
And yes, I remember the work
on Project 124, and that was so good.
359
00:18:13,424 --> 00:18:17,432
And the client reaching back,
pulling that report off the shelf,
360
00:18:17,576 --> 00:18:20,184
blowing the dust off it and
going, that was.
361
00:18:20,272 --> 00:18:21,848
That was a great report.
362
00:18:21,984 --> 00:18:25,144
Only to chat a little bit more
and find out they never actually
363
00:18:25,232 --> 00:18:26,408
did anything with it.
364
00:18:26,544 --> 00:18:28,810
Very impressed, loved it.
365
00:18:28,930 --> 00:18:30,138
Everybody was happy.
366
00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:30,490
Great.
367
00:18:30,530 --> 00:18:33,242
Client sat wasn't implemented.
368
00:18:33,386 --> 00:18:38,470
Ah, the medicine and the
method of ensuring correct use.
369
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:39,866
Right.
370
00:18:39,938 --> 00:18:42,874
And this is an interesting
conversation that gets us into the
371
00:18:42,882 --> 00:18:44,410
territory of specialization.
372
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:47,898
For example, is it okay to
specialize in just doing strategy
373
00:18:47,914 --> 00:18:51,722
or just doing diagnosis work
versus specializing in just doing
374
00:18:51,826 --> 00:18:53,152
implementation work?
375
00:18:53,306 --> 00:18:57,556
And I can think of a dozen
reasons why it's useful the majority
376
00:18:57,588 --> 00:19:01,700
of times to specialize in
terms of skill and approach and business
377
00:19:01,740 --> 00:19:04,644
development and client
relationships, to specialize in diagnosis
378
00:19:04,692 --> 00:19:07,028
rather than implementation and
vice versa.
379
00:19:07,204 --> 00:19:09,604
But it's also a bit of a trap.
380
00:19:09,732 --> 00:19:12,948
You can't do good diagnosis,
you can't do good strategy, I don't
381
00:19:12,964 --> 00:19:17,444
think, unless somebody in the
team can also interpret what implementation
382
00:19:17,572 --> 00:19:18,452
is going to look like.
383
00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:20,820
And that's, I think, what was
missing in the story that you told
384
00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:21,440
there.
385
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,344
Similarly, I don't think you
can do good implementation unless
386
00:19:24,392 --> 00:19:27,240
you've got a really good
skeptical eye for what the business
387
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,352
case was, for what the
diagnosis was.
388
00:19:29,536 --> 00:19:33,000
To put it another way, Mike,
simply answering the what should
389
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,184
you do and why question is not
useful on its own unless somebody
390
00:19:38,232 --> 00:19:42,744
at some Point also asks how,
like, if we get there, how are we
391
00:19:42,752 --> 00:19:43,940
going to take it forward?
392
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:51,846
But, you know, it also strikes
me it's so important about understanding
393
00:19:51,958 --> 00:19:54,758
what's in the mind of your client.
394
00:19:54,934 --> 00:19:59,286
You know, not just, oh, I'm
really happy with this, or I'm persuaded
395
00:19:59,318 --> 00:20:01,846
by what you said, but why?
396
00:20:01,918 --> 00:20:03,750
And what are they actually thinking?
397
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:08,790
I remember running into this
in my university days when I was
398
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:13,910
on the receiving line of calls
to the Human Sexuality Counseling
399
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:14,810
Hotline.
400
00:20:15,150 --> 00:20:16,438
And this is going to be good.
401
00:20:16,574 --> 00:20:17,030
Yeah.
402
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:17,970
I had.
403
00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:24,022
I thought that the presented
problem was somebody's skepticism
404
00:20:24,086 --> 00:20:27,078
about the effectiveness of
birth control pills.
405
00:20:27,174 --> 00:20:30,726
And we had a nice conversation.
406
00:20:30,838 --> 00:20:34,582
We went back and forth about
the statistics about the relative
407
00:20:34,646 --> 00:20:37,450
efficiency of different
methods of contraception.
408
00:20:37,790 --> 00:20:40,134
And I thought we were all good.
409
00:20:40,302 --> 00:20:45,456
And her final or her next to
last comment was, I just find that
410
00:20:45,528 --> 00:20:50,256
so hard to believe because
every time I stand up, the pills
411
00:20:50,288 --> 00:20:51,180
fall out.
412
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,584
And I realized I really had
not done a good job of understanding
413
00:20:57,632 --> 00:21:02,080
what was on the mind of my
client and ensuring the method of
414
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,008
correct use.
415
00:21:03,144 --> 00:21:04,272
Very good.
416
00:21:04,456 --> 00:21:07,872
Well, part of me would like to
imagine how the call ended, but I
417
00:21:07,896 --> 00:21:10,828
think we'll just leave it
there for the sake of decency.
418
00:21:11,004 --> 00:21:12,204
Wow, Mike.
419
00:21:12,332 --> 00:21:15,372
And I guess lots of us have
got stories about clients that thought
420
00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:17,932
they understood our advice,
but we had not really made it clear
421
00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:18,680
for them.
422
00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:20,332
Excellent.
423
00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:24,400
So, Mike, so far we've dealt
with doctors, attitudes to illness,
424
00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:27,440
consultants, attitudes to
clients, problems.
425
00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:30,796
In the next three secrets,
we're going to look at the decisions
426
00:21:30,828 --> 00:21:35,670
that patients make, or rather
the clients make, based on our advice.
427
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:36,910
Stick around.
428
00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:48,430
Number four, if what they've
been doing hasn't solved the problem,
429
00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:53,030
tell them to do something else.
430
00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:56,722
And I think a couple of
implications here.
431
00:21:56,826 --> 00:22:02,610
One is this bedrock principle
that says, in order to apply this
432
00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:06,254
principle, you have to know
what they've been doing.
433
00:22:06,422 --> 00:22:10,190
You have to have asked about
it, you have to understand it as
434
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:11,598
otherwise we're going to do that.
435
00:22:11,734 --> 00:22:14,638
And to get a little bit
underneath this to say, well, wait
436
00:22:14,654 --> 00:22:17,278
a minute, if what they've been
doing hasn't solved the problem,
437
00:22:17,334 --> 00:22:18,446
tell them to do something else.
438
00:22:18,478 --> 00:22:20,462
On the one hand, that could
just be logical.
439
00:22:20,526 --> 00:22:24,030
You know, keep doing the same
thing, you keep getting the same
440
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:24,606
results.
441
00:22:24,758 --> 00:22:28,526
But the other part is not just
logical, it's psychological.
442
00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:33,856
It's the fact that we're
perhaps telling them to do something
443
00:22:34,008 --> 00:22:38,160
that in their minds they've
already done and it didn't work.
444
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,020
And I think we'll come back to
that one.
445
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,144
It's funny, it's something
that's almost always there in the
446
00:22:46,152 --> 00:22:47,184
record, if we just ask for it.
447
00:22:47,192 --> 00:22:49,104
Like, what have they tried already?
448
00:22:49,192 --> 00:22:50,592
What have they tried so far?
449
00:22:50,696 --> 00:22:53,888
But so often I've seen
consultants forget to ask.
450
00:22:53,944 --> 00:22:56,432
We're quite obsessed with what
we're going to recommend and what
451
00:22:56,456 --> 00:22:56,880
comes next.
452
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,304
It's a really smart thing to ask.
453
00:22:58,392 --> 00:22:58,598
What.
454
00:22:58,624 --> 00:23:00,030
What have they already tried?
455
00:23:00,850 --> 00:23:04,298
So moving on then to secret
number five.
456
00:23:04,434 --> 00:23:06,698
This gets me into one of our
favorite areas, Mike.
457
00:23:06,794 --> 00:23:07,466
Pricing.
458
00:23:07,578 --> 00:23:09,354
Let's talk about money for a minute.
459
00:23:09,482 --> 00:23:12,442
This, from a doctor's
perspective, sounds very cynical.
460
00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:16,470
Make sure they pay you enough
so they'll do what you say.
461
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:22,714
And maybe this is going to
sound a little bit less cynical from
462
00:23:22,722 --> 00:23:24,352
the point of view of a consultant.
463
00:23:24,546 --> 00:23:25,732
Let's put it this way.
464
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:30,468
The more your advice is likely
to be unfamiliar, unpalatable, or
465
00:23:30,524 --> 00:23:34,340
counterintuitive, the more
billable hours it's going to take,
466
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:39,524
especially from your seniors,
to explain and rationalize and persuade
467
00:23:39,572 --> 00:23:42,692
and build consensus, most
importantly, about acting on the
468
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:43,620
recommendations.
469
00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:46,676
So the bigger and scarier the
advice is going to be, the more effort
470
00:23:46,708 --> 00:23:48,836
it's going to take, the more
high value effort it's going to take
471
00:23:48,908 --> 00:23:50,736
for the client to say, okay,
let's do it.
472
00:23:50,828 --> 00:23:53,400
And therefore the fee budget
goes up.
473
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,616
So there's a nice, I think a
reasonably honorable cause and effect
474
00:23:56,688 --> 00:23:57,656
in that direction.
475
00:23:57,768 --> 00:24:00,264
The more tricky the advice is
likely to be, the more expensive
476
00:24:00,312 --> 00:24:03,496
it's going to be to get it and
to believe it and to buy into it.
477
00:24:03,648 --> 00:24:05,980
But there's a more cynical
perspective, right, Mike?
478
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:07,640
Well, there is.
479
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,032
From a cynical perspective,
the fee budget reflects the ego of
480
00:24:11,056 --> 00:24:13,864
the consultants and the person
buying their services.
481
00:24:14,032 --> 00:24:17,608
And if the fees are super
high, then the recommendations had
482
00:24:17,664 --> 00:24:20,552
better be really amazing and unexpected.
483
00:24:20,696 --> 00:24:24,916
Or if this vodka is priced
higher than that vodka, it's gotta
484
00:24:24,948 --> 00:24:26,360
be a better vodka.
485
00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:31,172
And you know, to a certain
extent, the market takes care of
486
00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:31,428
that.
487
00:24:31,484 --> 00:24:34,356
And there are firms, and you
all know the names of the firms I'm
488
00:24:34,388 --> 00:24:35,108
thinking about.
489
00:24:35,244 --> 00:24:38,308
There are firms out there that
make a big margin and charge a large
490
00:24:38,364 --> 00:24:40,340
fee based on both of these rationales.
491
00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:42,964
First of all, if it's that
expensive, the advice must be great.
492
00:24:43,052 --> 00:24:46,388
But also, if they're going to
make really scary advice stick, they're
493
00:24:46,404 --> 00:24:48,558
going to have to put a lot of
effort in and there's a lot of value
494
00:24:48,614 --> 00:24:49,294
behind that.
495
00:24:49,382 --> 00:24:50,606
So this, this kind of works.
496
00:24:50,638 --> 00:24:53,262
I'm, I'm happier ascribing
this secret to consultants, actually,
497
00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:56,798
than to physicians, at least
in a world outside the United States.
498
00:24:56,854 --> 00:24:57,374
Mike.
499
00:24:57,502 --> 00:25:00,622
And I like our Irish
grandmother who reminds us that if
500
00:25:00,646 --> 00:25:03,374
it was really important, I'D
actually have to pay something for
501
00:25:03,382 --> 00:25:03,550
it.
502
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:06,542
And if I don't have to pay
anything for it, then I'm, you know,
503
00:25:06,566 --> 00:25:06,910
a lot.
504
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:09,870
It's a lot easier for me to
say, oh, well, it doesn't matter
505
00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:10,830
whether I take it or not.
506
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:12,046
Wait, that cost me.
507
00:25:12,118 --> 00:25:13,214
That cost me a pound.
508
00:25:13,262 --> 00:25:15,038
Wait, no, no, no, I'm going to
take that.
509
00:25:15,174 --> 00:25:16,290
Yeah, exactly.
510
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,152
If anybody knows anybody who's
been taking Wegovy or Mounjaro these
511
00:25:21,176 --> 00:25:24,464
days, the GLP1s the big weight
loss drugs, not for every patient,
512
00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:27,232
but most doctors will say the
first and the cheapest and the most
513
00:25:27,256 --> 00:25:30,000
effective thing you can do is
reduce your calorie intake, improve
514
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,488
your diet and do some exercise.
515
00:25:31,584 --> 00:25:35,984
Those things are relatively
cheap, almost free, at least in pharmaceutical
516
00:25:36,032 --> 00:25:36,288
terms.
517
00:25:36,344 --> 00:25:39,760
But maybe there's some truth
to the idea that the more you believe
518
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,112
is being spent on the
treatment, the more likely it is
519
00:25:42,136 --> 00:25:43,502
that you might stick with it.
520
00:25:43,696 --> 00:25:44,430
Discuss.
521
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:49,154
Anyhow, Mike, we've done five
out of six of the Secrets of Marvin.
522
00:25:49,202 --> 00:25:50,530
Let's get down to the last one here.
523
00:25:50,570 --> 00:25:52,162
What is secret number six?
524
00:25:52,346 --> 00:25:59,070
Secret number six, Know how
pays much less than know when.
525
00:25:59,370 --> 00:26:03,202
And for Jerry, you know, this
is an interesting one because I thought,
526
00:26:03,226 --> 00:26:04,242
well, wait a minute.
527
00:26:04,306 --> 00:26:07,362
Know how pays much less than
know when.
528
00:26:07,466 --> 00:26:10,930
But that's a little bit of our
specialist generalist thing.
529
00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:15,778
But it's also this, Jerry says
that this list of secrets and its
530
00:26:15,834 --> 00:26:18,786
version, whether it's the
medical version or the engineer's
531
00:26:18,818 --> 00:26:23,378
version, lawyers, consultants,
for any consulting specialty is very
532
00:26:23,434 --> 00:26:23,938
important.
533
00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:28,770
But some of our greatest value
as consultants isn't just in the
534
00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:36,670
secrets themselves, but in our
ability to know when to apply them.
535
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:42,692
So, for example, not resting
your case on number one, it's going
536
00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,308
to cure itself, when in fact,
what we've got is a number two situation
537
00:26:46,404 --> 00:26:47,040
here.
538
00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:51,364
Now, it's a common objection.
539
00:26:51,412 --> 00:26:53,780
Once you get into the guts of
a consulting project and you start
540
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:56,916
generating conclusions and
recommendations, it's a common objection
541
00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,956
to a recommendation that the
client might say, well, we tried
542
00:26:59,988 --> 00:27:01,684
that before and it didn't work.
543
00:27:01,772 --> 00:27:05,360
Or we looked at it two years
ago and we chose not to pursue it
544
00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:09,428
with the implied meaning that
that's therefore not a great recommendation.
545
00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:13,220
But actually, lots of the
value in consulting is actually in
546
00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:18,964
helping clients believe that
this relatively obvious, expected,
547
00:27:19,132 --> 00:27:22,580
fashionable, straightforward
thing, believing that this thing
548
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,280
for this thing, now is the
right time.
549
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:28,388
And you could take AI as an
example, Mike.
550
00:27:28,484 --> 00:27:34,260
The idea that software driven
AI could revolutionize business,
551
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,840
it's certainly been around for
a little while.
552
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,072
It's certainly been true that
AI based tools have existed in all
553
00:27:40,096 --> 00:27:44,408
kinds of computer software and
personal devices and, you know, it,
554
00:27:44,464 --> 00:27:45,816
productivity apps.
555
00:27:46,008 --> 00:27:50,280
But now is the time for a
whole bunch of reasons, some of them
556
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,128
real and rational and
economic, some of them really technical,
557
00:27:53,224 --> 00:27:56,296
some of them just a little bit
emotional, and some of them outright
558
00:27:56,328 --> 00:27:56,840
commercial.
559
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,448
Now is the time that we are
being encouraged to take advantage
560
00:27:59,464 --> 00:28:00,300
of AI.
561
00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:04,610
So you don't just need to know
that the solution lies there.
562
00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:07,202
You need to know and believe
that now is the right time to take
563
00:28:07,226 --> 00:28:07,810
advantage of it.
564
00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:10,802
I think getting that sense of
urgency is a really important thing
565
00:28:10,826 --> 00:28:13,490
in helping our clients go
ahead and reach the point of making
566
00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:14,270
a decision.
567
00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:19,618
We've talked a good bit about
these secrets of consulting and trying
568
00:28:19,674 --> 00:28:24,290
to figure out what to try in
real life.
569
00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:25,458
Let's get to that.
570
00:28:25,514 --> 00:28:30,120
So if I'm listening right now,
what could I be doing about this?
571
00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:40,076
So, Mike, first of all, if any
of our listeners is in the frame
572
00:28:40,108 --> 00:28:43,244
of mind to take up a new book
about consulting, go out there and
573
00:28:43,252 --> 00:28:44,780
get hold of Jerry Weinberg's book.
574
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,652
It has aged really well since
the mid-80s when he first put it
575
00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:49,276
to paper.
576
00:28:49,388 --> 00:28:52,156
And it's fascinating and funny
and wise.
577
00:28:52,268 --> 00:28:55,240
Hence, we've had fun making an
episode or two out of it.
578
00:28:55,700 --> 00:29:00,444
And I would also say, go back
to the learnings from the main episode.
579
00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,916
Give it a try paying attention
to that third project.
580
00:29:04,068 --> 00:29:07,420
If you're at third project
stage, then that's a moment to take
581
00:29:07,460 --> 00:29:11,132
stock, to get feedback, make
sure your team are enjoying it, make
582
00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:13,756
sure the client and the firm
are profiting from it, because that's
583
00:29:13,788 --> 00:29:16,748
a really great moment in the
life of your relationship, and it's
584
00:29:16,764 --> 00:29:19,320
a critical moment for thinking
about where to go next.
585
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,228
I think that's a great idea.
586
00:29:21,324 --> 00:29:22,684
So, you know, third project.
587
00:29:22,772 --> 00:29:23,436
There you go.
588
00:29:23,508 --> 00:29:24,680
Great takeaways.
589
00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:29,152
But if you're contemplating a
project, perhaps you're even in a
590
00:29:29,176 --> 00:29:32,752
business development
opportunity right now, or writing
591
00:29:32,816 --> 00:29:36,992
a proposal or starting a
project, you might want to go down
592
00:29:37,016 --> 00:29:38,336
the Marvin list here.
593
00:29:38,408 --> 00:29:43,040
You might want to say, wait a
minute, is this something that would
594
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,560
cure itself?
595
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,232
And if so, how should I be
handling that?
596
00:29:47,256 --> 00:29:50,574
And is that what we're doing
with this client at this time?
597
00:29:50,752 --> 00:29:51,522
Right.
598
00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:54,866
We could be asking ourselves
as we sit down to write that proposal,
599
00:29:54,978 --> 00:29:58,882
are we showing the client that
we know and care about both sides
600
00:29:58,946 --> 00:30:01,474
of implementation and diagnosis?
601
00:30:01,602 --> 00:30:03,870
Not hanging too heavily on our
specialty there?
602
00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:09,938
Does our pricing represent the
importance and complexity of our
603
00:30:09,994 --> 00:30:12,066
likely recommendations?
604
00:30:12,258 --> 00:30:16,648
And what is it doing about
signaling the value of this project
605
00:30:16,834 --> 00:30:20,748
both to the client and to ourselves?
606
00:30:20,924 --> 00:30:22,000
Exactly.
607
00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:25,740
We should ask ourselves as
well, Mike, have they tried this
608
00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:26,220
before?
609
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:27,596
Let's take a look at history.
610
00:30:27,668 --> 00:30:28,684
What have they tried already?
611
00:30:28,772 --> 00:30:29,852
What's been the outcome?
612
00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:32,012
Because there's going to be
some learning and some context for
613
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:33,868
us there, right?
614
00:30:34,004 --> 00:30:35,532
And why now?
615
00:30:35,636 --> 00:30:40,636
You know, we just said it's
the know how, but the know when might
616
00:30:40,708 --> 00:30:42,098
even be more important.
617
00:30:42,284 --> 00:30:46,726
So have we just written about
and discussed and understood the
618
00:30:46,878 --> 00:30:47,894
know what?
619
00:30:48,062 --> 00:30:52,262
Or have we really put
ourselves in a position to nail with
620
00:30:52,286 --> 00:30:57,430
ourselves and the client, the
know when, the why now of all this
621
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:58,614
fantastic.
622
00:30:58,742 --> 00:31:02,102
Well, we hope all of those are
a little jog towards things that
623
00:31:02,126 --> 00:31:04,022
you can do to apply some other learning.
624
00:31:04,086 --> 00:31:07,014
We hope that you've enjoyed at
least listening along to some of
625
00:31:07,022 --> 00:31:08,538
the Jerry Weinberg material.
626
00:31:08,694 --> 00:31:10,978
That's it for our show for
this week.
627
00:31:11,114 --> 00:31:13,554
As always, we'd love to hear
what you think.
628
00:31:13,642 --> 00:31:16,706
We'd love to hear more as well
about books and ideas and concepts
629
00:31:16,738 --> 00:31:19,550
that you'd like us to debate
and debunk a little bit.
630
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:24,178
So please join us next time on
the Consulting for Humans podcast
631
00:31:24,274 --> 00:31:27,670
and be with us with the luminaries.
632
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:34,260
It.
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:00,820
Foreign.
2
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:16,680
Welcome, luminaries.
3
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,584
We're so glad you've joined us.
4
00:00:18,672 --> 00:00:21,860
Congratulations on being part
of the luminary community.
5
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,066
Mike, tell us a little bit
about what's going to be on our agenda
6
00:00:27,098 --> 00:00:28,714
for the luminaries today.
7
00:00:28,882 --> 00:00:29,258
Go.
8
00:00:29,314 --> 00:00:30,394
Be delighted to.
9
00:00:30,482 --> 00:00:30,986
Ian.
10
00:00:31,098 --> 00:00:34,234
In our main episode, we've
been discussing the wise writings
11
00:00:34,282 --> 00:00:38,506
of consultant and computer
scientist Gerald Weinberg.
12
00:00:38,618 --> 00:00:44,122
We heard Jerry talk about his
third time charm rule and also the
13
00:00:44,226 --> 00:00:47,418
see what isn't there rule in
the main episode.
14
00:00:47,514 --> 00:00:50,710
But there's a lot more to
cover in this fabulous book.
15
00:00:51,020 --> 00:00:51,828
There really is.
16
00:00:51,884 --> 00:00:54,836
And some takeaways for us, I
think, in consulting life too.
17
00:00:54,988 --> 00:00:59,556
Now, one of the things that
caught our eye was the way Weinberg
18
00:00:59,668 --> 00:01:01,684
had put together some rules.
19
00:01:01,732 --> 00:01:05,796
He called them secrets for
consultants based on, as he described
20
00:01:05,828 --> 00:01:08,564
it, the thoughts of his
brother in law, Marvin.
21
00:01:08,692 --> 00:01:13,204
Marvin, it turns out, is a
physician, a doctor, said by Weinberg
22
00:01:13,252 --> 00:01:15,252
to be wise but also cynical.
23
00:01:15,396 --> 00:01:17,830
And Mike, I think anytime I
hear there's advice coming from,
24
00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:20,786
from somebody who's wise and
cynical, that kind of stuff earns
25
00:01:20,818 --> 00:01:22,802
a place, I think, on
consulting for humans and on the
26
00:01:22,826 --> 00:01:23,670
luminaries.
27
00:01:24,090 --> 00:01:27,410
So, Mike, you and I have
talked with clients over the years
28
00:01:27,450 --> 00:01:30,066
about the similarities between
consulting and medicine.
29
00:01:30,098 --> 00:01:31,810
So I'm looking forward to this one.
30
00:01:31,930 --> 00:01:33,298
I will say just this.
31
00:01:33,434 --> 00:01:37,074
Consultants and doctors alike
are basically garage mechanics.
32
00:01:37,202 --> 00:01:40,322
And I'm looking forward to how
we can dig into that and unearth
33
00:01:40,386 --> 00:01:44,588
the similarities a little bit
here now, Mike, but let's think about
34
00:01:44,644 --> 00:01:48,476
what we might expect from
doctors here in the 21st century
35
00:01:48,508 --> 00:01:50,988
and to what extent that might
play out with consultants.
36
00:01:51,084 --> 00:01:53,788
Which diagnostic checks will
your insurance cover?
37
00:01:53,844 --> 00:01:55,308
Okay, we'll do all of them.
38
00:01:55,444 --> 00:01:57,932
We've heard that happen from
time to time from acquisitive doctors.
39
00:01:57,996 --> 00:02:00,476
That's kind of the same as a
consultant saying, which PowerPoint
40
00:02:00,508 --> 00:02:01,148
slides do you need?
41
00:02:01,204 --> 00:02:01,788
You're not sure?
42
00:02:01,844 --> 00:02:04,076
I'm going to give you all of
them and charge you for every single
43
00:02:04,108 --> 00:02:04,732
one.
44
00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:06,120
Right, right.
45
00:02:06,580 --> 00:02:11,484
Well, one that perhaps I've
discovered before with doctors.
46
00:02:11,612 --> 00:02:15,044
I'm not sure if we can do this
as consultants.
47
00:02:15,092 --> 00:02:18,292
Maybe at some level, high
level consultants do this.
48
00:02:18,476 --> 00:02:21,012
This problem really isn't my specialty.
49
00:02:21,076 --> 00:02:23,156
You need somebody who does X.
50
00:02:23,308 --> 00:02:26,720
And that'll be $7,500, please.
51
00:02:28,540 --> 00:02:28,916
Mike.
52
00:02:28,948 --> 00:02:32,676
By the way, in our show notes
here, I'd written $750, but you've
53
00:02:32,708 --> 00:02:35,028
just stuck your finger on the
problem of health care in the U.S.
54
00:02:35,084 --> 00:02:36,612
actually, it should have been
a zero.
55
00:02:36,796 --> 00:02:37,540
Wow.
56
00:02:37,700 --> 00:02:39,972
I sold the 750 and I
translated it.
57
00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:43,444
I mean, 750 bought you a
Tylenol in the emergency room about
58
00:02:43,532 --> 00:02:44,596
50, 15 years ago.
59
00:02:44,668 --> 00:02:45,748
20 years ago here.
60
00:02:45,804 --> 00:02:46,400
Right.
61
00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:49,812
And Mike, maybe even a
physician might say, if they were
62
00:02:49,836 --> 00:02:52,244
thinking like a consultant,
the most cost effective solutions
63
00:02:52,292 --> 00:02:53,636
these days are imported from Canada.
64
00:02:53,708 --> 00:02:55,316
That would be cool as well,
wouldn't it?
65
00:02:55,468 --> 00:02:56,228
Right, right.
66
00:02:56,284 --> 00:03:01,140
Hence the desire to make them
a 51st state, which we won't even
67
00:03:01,180 --> 00:03:01,920
go there.
68
00:03:02,460 --> 00:03:05,140
So, Mike, in this Luminaries
episode, we're going to go through
69
00:03:05,180 --> 00:03:08,468
the medical secrets learned
from brother in law Marvin.
70
00:03:08,564 --> 00:03:11,434
Which ones are going to be
useful for us in consulting?
71
00:03:11,612 --> 00:03:16,078
Which ones have or have not
stood the test of time.
72
00:03:16,214 --> 00:03:19,150
This is going to get us
thinking about whether it helps or
73
00:03:19,190 --> 00:03:21,870
doesn't help to be thought of
as a specialist.
74
00:03:21,950 --> 00:03:25,230
It's going to get us thinking
about the pitfalls of believing that
75
00:03:25,270 --> 00:03:26,862
consultants can cure anything.
76
00:03:27,006 --> 00:03:31,230
It's going to get us thinking
about the value of knowing how to
77
00:03:31,270 --> 00:03:35,710
implement your own advice or
as you might say, Mike, how to take
78
00:03:35,750 --> 00:03:36,820
your own medicine.
79
00:03:36,950 --> 00:03:38,744
Let's see what we can learn
from this.
80
00:03:38,912 --> 00:03:39,544
Nice.
81
00:03:39,672 --> 00:03:42,488
You know, and taking your own
medicine being certainly different
82
00:03:42,544 --> 00:03:44,540
than breathing your own exhaust.
83
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,248
Well, we'll see.
84
00:03:48,304 --> 00:03:49,460
Let's get into it.
85
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:55,864
Ian.
86
00:03:55,912 --> 00:03:59,976
I found it really interesting
that Weinberg is discussing these
87
00:04:00,048 --> 00:04:03,624
secrets from his, his brother
in law Marvin as part of a discussion
88
00:04:03,672 --> 00:04:06,808
on being a fake effective when
you don't know what you're doing.
89
00:04:06,864 --> 00:04:11,624
As he says, sometimes being
out of your kind of out of your area
90
00:04:11,792 --> 00:04:13,976
and out of your depth here.
91
00:04:14,128 --> 00:04:19,928
But it's also a discussion
about the fact that, as he says,
92
00:04:19,984 --> 00:04:25,048
consultants usually start as
specialists and are often called
93
00:04:25,104 --> 00:04:26,552
in as specialists.
94
00:04:26,696 --> 00:04:32,936
But the problem with that is
that the toughest problems don't
95
00:04:32,968 --> 00:04:34,888
have labels attached to them.
96
00:04:35,024 --> 00:04:37,928
So oftentimes, and he
estimates it's at least three quarters
97
00:04:37,944 --> 00:04:42,104
of the time, the specialists
that are called in are not actually
98
00:04:42,192 --> 00:04:45,592
the specialists needed for
this job.
99
00:04:45,696 --> 00:04:48,152
It's like if I really knew
what the problem was, I might have
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called somebody differently.
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00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:55,400
However, good consultants, he
says, aren't just specialists, they're
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problem solvers.
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00:04:56,856 --> 00:05:01,886
And they have a bag of tricks
that can actually be generalized
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00:05:01,998 --> 00:05:04,542
across multiple different specialties.
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00:05:04,606 --> 00:05:06,734
Just expressed a little bit differently.
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00:05:06,862 --> 00:05:12,510
And I want to tell a little
bit of a story about how I ran into
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that specifically and in the
medical industry.
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00:05:15,750 --> 00:05:20,750
And then let's get into these
things and unpack them a little bit.
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So I ran into this with my
daughter Meredith, and it was in
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the early days, well, kind,
kind of pre, the early days of Lyme
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disease.
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00:05:28,546 --> 00:05:34,802
Lyme was known, but not widely
known and, you know, the fatal thing
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of anything in the US There
was not an insurance payback because
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there wasn't a diagnosis code.
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00:05:40,450 --> 00:05:46,706
So she went over the course of
many months to many specialists.
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00:05:46,898 --> 00:05:50,578
And what I found was exactly
the joke that I made earlier.
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00:05:50,714 --> 00:05:52,626
The specialist who says, yep,
not mine.
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00:05:52,658 --> 00:05:54,670
Here's your bill, good luck.
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00:05:54,830 --> 00:06:01,742
And what we ran into was a
specialist who could act like a generalist.
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00:06:01,886 --> 00:06:07,518
And even more near and dear to
my heart, somebody who was a consultant
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who also was a human.
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Now, the humanity, I think
was, was kind of brought to the fore
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00:06:13,622 --> 00:06:18,398
because Meredith reminded him
of his daughter, same age, shared
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00:06:18,414 --> 00:06:19,518
a lot of characteristics.
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00:06:19,614 --> 00:06:24,616
So I think even though it in
his area, quote unquote, he didn't
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00:06:24,648 --> 00:06:25,464
see anything.
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00:06:25,592 --> 00:06:30,760
He gathered all the tests, all
the diagnosis, all the comments from
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00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,456
all the other specialists and
then tried to piece them together,
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00:06:34,528 --> 00:06:39,752
that problem solver and apply
more generalist rubrics to say, well,
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00:06:39,776 --> 00:06:40,872
wait a minute, what fits?
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00:06:40,936 --> 00:06:42,184
What doesn't fit?
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00:06:42,312 --> 00:06:44,248
You know, what, what are we
seeing here?
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00:06:44,304 --> 00:06:48,552
And actually came across some
things that got us going towards
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a real solution there here.
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00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:56,552
So these characteristics of
good consultants, absolutely on target
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00:06:56,656 --> 00:06:57,560
from Jerry.
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00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,392
And even better when we're
humans consulting to humans here.
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00:07:02,496 --> 00:07:03,624
Well, fantastic.
139
00:07:03,672 --> 00:07:06,760
Let's get back to Marvin
secrets, Ian.
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00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,576
Right, Mike, let's read them
out all together as a block of 6,
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00:07:11,648 --> 00:07:13,880
and then we will dig into them individually.
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00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,888
So let's give you an idea of
where we're headed with Marvin secrets.
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00:07:16,984 --> 00:07:18,420
Secret number one.
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00:07:18,940 --> 00:07:23,476
90% of all illness cures
itself with absolutely no intervention
145
00:07:23,508 --> 00:07:24,532
from the doctor.
146
00:07:24,676 --> 00:07:27,812
That's going to shake things
up a little bit, Mike, in the world
147
00:07:27,836 --> 00:07:28,404
of consulting.
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00:07:28,452 --> 00:07:30,132
How about secret number two?
149
00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:34,340
Secret number two, I'd say
deal gently with systems that should
150
00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:36,440
be able to cure themselves.
151
00:07:36,940 --> 00:07:39,204
Expressed this way repeatedly.
152
00:07:39,252 --> 00:07:44,004
Curing a system that can cure
itself will eventually create a system
153
00:07:44,092 --> 00:07:45,080
that can't.
154
00:07:45,470 --> 00:07:46,310
Hmm.
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00:07:46,470 --> 00:07:50,810
Okay, again, that might put a
cat amongst a few consulting pigeons.
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00:07:51,150 --> 00:07:55,254
Secret number three, in the
world of medicine says every prescription
157
00:07:55,302 --> 00:08:00,598
has two parts, the medicine
itself and the method of ensuring
158
00:08:00,694 --> 00:08:01,970
correct use.
159
00:08:02,270 --> 00:08:05,270
Ah, okay, I'm hearing some
consulting advice coming through
160
00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:05,798
here.
161
00:08:05,934 --> 00:08:06,822
Secret number four.
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00:08:06,846 --> 00:08:07,702
What does that say?
163
00:08:07,806 --> 00:08:12,130
Yeah, it says if what they've
been doing hasn't solved the problem,
164
00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:15,556
tell them to do something else.
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00:08:15,748 --> 00:08:17,236
Oh, okay.
166
00:08:17,348 --> 00:08:18,800
Secret number five.
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00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:20,212
I like this one.
168
00:08:20,316 --> 00:08:24,240
Make sure they pay you enough
so that they'll do what you say.
169
00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:27,732
Which is not something I'd
expect to hear from a doctor in my
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00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:30,148
world, but I think in your
world, Mike, it could well be.
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00:08:30,284 --> 00:08:31,412
Yes, absolutely.
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00:08:31,476 --> 00:08:37,140
And, well, I'm reminded of
somebody we worked with in Ireland
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00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:42,754
who said his grandmother was
really upset because under the new
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00:08:42,932 --> 00:08:45,254
in health insurance she was
going to have, there was going to
175
00:08:45,262 --> 00:08:46,918
be no charge for some things.
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00:08:47,054 --> 00:08:48,886
And she said, well that's ridiculous.
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00:08:48,998 --> 00:08:51,542
If they don't charge me
something, I won't take it.
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00:08:51,646 --> 00:08:55,254
And I thought, wow, wise
woman, wise woman here.
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00:08:55,342 --> 00:08:59,446
Anyways, the last one is
secret number six.
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00:08:59,598 --> 00:09:04,566
Know how pays much less than
know when.
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00:09:04,718 --> 00:09:07,078
Oh, right.
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00:09:07,134 --> 00:09:09,862
So we're going to be thinking
about clients attitudes to consultants,
183
00:09:09,926 --> 00:09:12,358
consultants attitude to
clients, problems and everybody's
184
00:09:12,374 --> 00:09:13,414
attitude to each other.
185
00:09:13,502 --> 00:09:16,082
There's going to be something
for us learn, I think a little bit
186
00:09:16,186 --> 00:09:17,350
from Marvin.
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00:09:18,010 --> 00:09:20,722
These are all expressed, as
you say Mike, in terms of the world
188
00:09:20,746 --> 00:09:21,830
of a physician.
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00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:27,550
Clearly the idea is that lots
of these aphorisms stand true for
190
00:09:28,330 --> 00:09:30,946
engineers, accountants,
lawyers, and of course the subject
191
00:09:30,978 --> 00:09:32,274
of the book, consultants.
192
00:09:32,322 --> 00:09:35,442
So let's hear me go through
them one by one, let's decode them
193
00:09:35,466 --> 00:09:36,082
a little bit.
194
00:09:36,186 --> 00:09:37,470
Let's get into it.
195
00:09:43,340 --> 00:09:47,172
You remember number one here,
90% of all illnesses cure themselves
196
00:09:47,236 --> 00:09:50,564
with absolutely no
intervention from a doctor.
197
00:09:50,692 --> 00:09:54,980
So in a doctor's world, as
long as you in fact do no harm, the
198
00:09:55,020 --> 00:09:57,124
illness is likely to cure itself.
199
00:09:57,252 --> 00:10:00,644
So if I was listening to an
engineering consultant with a lot
200
00:10:00,652 --> 00:10:03,652
of great insight and
experience, they might say if it
201
00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:05,460
ain't broke, don't fix it.
202
00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:06,100
No.
203
00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:11,326
And a system that's not broken
will fix itself.
204
00:10:11,518 --> 00:10:12,250
Right.
205
00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:17,902
Which sounds like a very Zen
enlightened approach to medicine
206
00:10:17,966 --> 00:10:18,878
and to humans.
207
00:10:18,974 --> 00:10:22,030
I wonder how it applies to
consulting projects.
208
00:10:22,190 --> 00:10:25,246
When I first read this I
thought, yeah, hahaha, there's a
209
00:10:25,318 --> 00:10:28,558
salutary lesson for
consultants not to be too optimistic
210
00:10:28,574 --> 00:10:30,410
about the value of what
they're going to do.
211
00:10:30,710 --> 00:10:34,334
If you're a client and you've
just spent a million on consultants,
212
00:10:34,382 --> 00:10:36,010
and then the problem got better.
213
00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:40,014
This law of regression to the
mean that things fix themselves,
214
00:10:40,062 --> 00:10:42,142
this law means that it may
well be that the million that you
215
00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:46,062
spent didn't cause the
improvement, that you don't know
216
00:10:46,086 --> 00:10:47,870
whether it actually paid back
or not.
217
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:50,862
But I want to go to the other
side of the equation, Mike.
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00:10:50,926 --> 00:10:54,382
He's saying 90% of problems
get better by themselves.
219
00:10:54,526 --> 00:10:57,822
That says if I'm a consultant
charging for advice, it's going to
220
00:10:57,846 --> 00:10:59,294
really help me and the client.
221
00:10:59,342 --> 00:11:03,050
If I'm sure as we get started
that the problem we're working on
222
00:11:03,090 --> 00:11:08,250
right now is one of those 10%
that for sure won't get better by
223
00:11:08,290 --> 00:11:08,730
itself.
224
00:11:08,810 --> 00:11:11,194
So there's real value in
knowing the diagnosis.
225
00:11:11,242 --> 00:11:13,802
I think this is going to be a
theme through quite a few of these
226
00:11:13,826 --> 00:11:15,110
bits of advice here.
227
00:11:15,570 --> 00:11:20,122
So we should be skeptical of
easy Claims from consultants that
228
00:11:20,146 --> 00:11:22,618
they at some time in the past
have saved the day.
229
00:11:22,754 --> 00:11:25,978
But as consultants, we also
need to be careful and serious about
230
00:11:26,114 --> 00:11:29,234
taking part in the diagnosis,
really understanding what are the
231
00:11:29,242 --> 00:11:31,234
consequences of the problems
that we uncover.
232
00:11:31,362 --> 00:11:32,594
What are the benefits?
233
00:11:32,722 --> 00:11:35,506
What some people sometimes
call addressing the so what?
234
00:11:35,578 --> 00:11:36,194
Question.
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00:11:36,362 --> 00:11:40,466
Well, and it's interesting to
me, I don't want to roll over that,
236
00:11:40,538 --> 00:11:43,794
but it also reminded me of the
old consulting joke that consultants
237
00:11:43,842 --> 00:11:46,882
come in, borrow your watch and
tell you the time.
238
00:11:46,986 --> 00:11:47,442
Yeah.
239
00:11:47,506 --> 00:11:51,346
But if we assume that the
client's confused about the time,
240
00:11:51,418 --> 00:11:55,090
and in fact they borrow your
watches, tell you the time, and you
241
00:11:55,130 --> 00:11:57,102
now are no longer confused, they.
242
00:11:57,146 --> 00:11:58,438
That's really helpful.
243
00:11:58,534 --> 00:12:01,302
And I think sometimes that's
exactly what happens.
244
00:12:01,366 --> 00:12:04,598
That rather than having to
make great big changes, the fact
245
00:12:04,654 --> 00:12:10,182
that people came in, people
listen, people consolidated it, got
246
00:12:10,206 --> 00:12:15,430
fed back from a third party
objective source, it actually now
247
00:12:15,470 --> 00:12:17,078
works when it didn't before.
248
00:12:17,214 --> 00:12:21,590
But as you say, there is a
great warning to take away here because
249
00:12:21,630 --> 00:12:24,614
of that 10% that is not gonna
cure itself.
250
00:12:24,742 --> 00:12:26,250
Yeah, absolutely.
251
00:12:26,670 --> 00:12:30,646
So now that we've dealt with
problems that might fix themselves,
252
00:12:30,838 --> 00:12:32,198
let's dig a little bit deeper.
253
00:12:32,214 --> 00:12:34,998
Let's go up to the level of
the organization, because Marvin's
254
00:12:35,014 --> 00:12:37,330
secret number two is up at
that level.
255
00:12:37,710 --> 00:12:40,822
One phrasing of it says you
should deal gently with systems that
256
00:12:40,846 --> 00:12:41,766
can cure themselves.
257
00:12:41,878 --> 00:12:44,390
The consequence of this,
though, the real secret number two
258
00:12:44,430 --> 00:12:45,206
says this.
259
00:12:45,358 --> 00:12:51,158
Repeatedly curing a system
that can cure itself will eventually
260
00:12:51,254 --> 00:12:52,970
create a system that can't.
261
00:12:53,590 --> 00:12:56,686
And I first read this and I
thought, this is trying to repeat
262
00:12:56,718 --> 00:13:00,686
the lesson of, you know,
medication resistance in antibiotics
263
00:13:00,718 --> 00:13:01,070
or something.
264
00:13:01,110 --> 00:13:02,558
How does that relate to consulting?
265
00:13:02,654 --> 00:13:07,694
But actually it is possible,
right, for us to repeatedly lure
266
00:13:07,742 --> 00:13:10,526
the client into thinking that
what they really need next is another
267
00:13:10,598 --> 00:13:13,130
fancy solution from us of the
other next problem.
268
00:13:13,510 --> 00:13:16,942
Yeah, I remember so clearly.
269
00:13:17,086 --> 00:13:22,014
And this, this came to me when
we were bidding for a piece of strategy
270
00:13:22,062 --> 00:13:25,898
work from a firm that was kind
of outside our specialties.
271
00:13:26,074 --> 00:13:30,954
It was a really top global company.
272
00:13:31,122 --> 00:13:34,234
And I was thinking we were
kind of brand new to the strategy
273
00:13:34,282 --> 00:13:34,842
piece of work.
274
00:13:34,866 --> 00:13:36,106
We weren't well known.
275
00:13:36,178 --> 00:13:39,978
How in the world, you know,
are we really just a third bid here?
276
00:13:40,034 --> 00:13:42,346
You know, kind of procurements
right off.
277
00:13:42,498 --> 00:13:48,570
But it was fascinating to me
that this company had used the same
278
00:13:48,690 --> 00:13:54,156
boutique consulting firm over
and over again in some really big
279
00:13:54,228 --> 00:13:55,840
strategy decisions.
280
00:13:56,980 --> 00:13:58,332
They were kind of famous.
281
00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:02,588
They were the stuff of a
Harvard business case study.
282
00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:06,956
They were also the stuff of
books written by the consulting firm.
283
00:14:07,068 --> 00:14:10,412
But the interesting thing is,
if you continued on to follow the
284
00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:15,004
rest of the story, this firm
always ended up in the ditch again.
285
00:14:15,092 --> 00:14:19,228
You know, another year or two
or three down and they would call
286
00:14:19,284 --> 00:14:23,180
their saviors the boutique
consulting firm in again.
287
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,900
Brand new, big win.
288
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,896
But boom, you follow ahead
again, back in the ditch again.
289
00:14:31,048 --> 00:14:35,312
So our pitch to get the
strategy was to point this out and
290
00:14:35,336 --> 00:14:39,120
it had happened over a long
period of time and you had to kind
291
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,840
of look at that and have the
memory to think back to realize,
292
00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,312
what's this pattern now these
high points are always followed by
293
00:14:47,336 --> 00:14:48,224
these low points.
294
00:14:48,312 --> 00:14:52,480
And I do think it was a case
of exactly what you've just said
295
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,230
and that that pitch in fact
won us that business, right?
296
00:14:57,350 --> 00:15:00,382
Weaning your client off this
kind of codependent savior thing
297
00:15:00,406 --> 00:15:03,486
that they've got going on with
the other really, really fancy consulting
298
00:15:03,518 --> 00:15:04,110
firm.
299
00:15:04,270 --> 00:15:07,118
This is sort of the dark side
of the consulting industry.
300
00:15:07,254 --> 00:15:11,230
So I guess I don't want people
to think this is a risk around every
301
00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:14,078
corner, but it is a risk where
there's a long term relationship
302
00:15:14,094 --> 00:15:15,614
with one consulting firm.
303
00:15:15,742 --> 00:15:20,936
And we find ourselves
repeatedly getting not only deeply
304
00:15:20,968 --> 00:15:23,848
embedded in the organization
and being trusted, which is great,
305
00:15:23,984 --> 00:15:27,448
but in effect teaching the
leaders and teaching the organization
306
00:15:27,624 --> 00:15:30,632
to not only that they can't
help themselves, but that they are
307
00:15:30,656 --> 00:15:33,944
going to be triggered to
stumble into a series of new problems,
308
00:15:33,992 --> 00:15:37,224
each of them requiring yet
more outside consulting help.
309
00:15:37,312 --> 00:15:41,096
There are books written about
these kind of toxic consultant client
310
00:15:41,128 --> 00:15:41,752
relationships.
311
00:15:41,816 --> 00:15:44,404
Like I say, Mike, I think they
are the minority, but.
312
00:15:44,432 --> 00:15:46,524
But it's a salutary thing to
think about.
313
00:15:46,692 --> 00:15:49,628
Hopefully none of us is going
to end up there that often.
314
00:15:49,684 --> 00:15:52,748
But history says it's not impossible.
315
00:15:52,924 --> 00:15:56,988
I can remember in a firm that
I worked with one particular client
316
00:15:57,084 --> 00:15:58,652
really, really badly needed help.
317
00:15:58,676 --> 00:16:04,812
They got into a big regulatory
mess and they hired the firm that
318
00:16:04,836 --> 00:16:08,076
I was working for via one
particular partner to do all manner
319
00:16:08,108 --> 00:16:10,524
of things to help get them
back on track after this regulatory
320
00:16:10,572 --> 00:16:11,200
problem.
321
00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:15,112
And a regulatory problem
ballooned into being some manufacturing
322
00:16:15,176 --> 00:16:17,896
problems and some research
problems and some marketing problems.
323
00:16:17,928 --> 00:16:22,872
And all of a sudden there were
billable hours through the roof.
324
00:16:22,936 --> 00:16:25,992
And there were many shiny
rental cars in the parking lot of
325
00:16:26,016 --> 00:16:29,176
this particular firm, all
occupied by consultants who are piling
326
00:16:29,208 --> 00:16:31,624
in to fix all of these great
and important problems.
327
00:16:31,752 --> 00:16:36,120
Until one day the CEO of this
company finally got the sack.
328
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,436
And the new CEO came and said,
what are all these great big invoices
329
00:16:39,468 --> 00:16:41,468
that I'm getting billed here
from this consulting firm?
330
00:16:41,564 --> 00:16:44,796
And who are all the folks in
the shiny rental cars in the parking
331
00:16:44,828 --> 00:16:45,308
lot?
332
00:16:45,444 --> 00:16:50,220
And it took an emperor's New
clothes kind of moment to say, hold
333
00:16:50,260 --> 00:16:50,956
on a minute.
334
00:16:51,068 --> 00:16:53,100
We've got two dependent on
each other here.
335
00:16:53,220 --> 00:16:56,524
Rather than fixing the
problem, we are continuously extending
336
00:16:56,572 --> 00:17:00,364
the problem profitably, but
not properly.
337
00:17:00,492 --> 00:17:00,940
Yeah.
338
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,688
Jerry makes a passing comment
in this section, and I think it's
339
00:17:04,704 --> 00:17:05,104
so true.
340
00:17:05,152 --> 00:17:08,400
They said, not only are
consultants guilty of this, not only
341
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,376
are doctors guilty of this,
any parent that continues to wipe
342
00:17:11,408 --> 00:17:14,528
their child's nose past the
age four is guilty of this right
343
00:17:14,584 --> 00:17:15,952
to learn to wipe their own nose.
344
00:17:16,016 --> 00:17:16,576
Right.
345
00:17:16,728 --> 00:17:20,672
And as anybody, you know, I'm
thinking back to my days in teaching
346
00:17:20,736 --> 00:17:24,368
at university and in the
business school, seeing these really
347
00:17:24,424 --> 00:17:27,840
capable young people whose
parents are now intervening on their
348
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,328
behalf, something about their
career or class choice or something
349
00:17:31,384 --> 00:17:33,340
going, stop, please stop.
350
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,936
Well, in number three, every
prescription has two parts, the medicine
351
00:17:41,968 --> 00:17:45,900
and the method of ensuring the
correct use.
352
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:53,744
And I can't help but remember,
you know, walking into clients who've
353
00:17:53,792 --> 00:17:55,088
asked us to come in.
354
00:17:55,224 --> 00:17:57,744
We've done, you know, work
with them before.
355
00:17:57,832 --> 00:18:02,040
They're inviting us in
sometimes, no bidding to come do
356
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,096
work for them again.
357
00:18:03,168 --> 00:18:07,512
And we're having that initial
great, good to see you again conversation.
358
00:18:07,656 --> 00:18:13,288
And yes, I remember the work
on Project 124, and that was so good.
359
00:18:13,424 --> 00:18:17,432
And the client reaching back,
pulling that report off the shelf,
360
00:18:17,576 --> 00:18:20,184
blowing the dust off it and
going, that was.
361
00:18:20,272 --> 00:18:21,848
That was a great report.
362
00:18:21,984 --> 00:18:25,144
Only to chat a little bit more
and find out they never actually
363
00:18:25,232 --> 00:18:26,408
did anything with it.
364
00:18:26,544 --> 00:18:28,810
Very impressed, loved it.
365
00:18:28,930 --> 00:18:30,138
Everybody was happy.
366
00:18:30,234 --> 00:18:30,490
Great.
367
00:18:30,530 --> 00:18:33,242
Client sat wasn't implemented.
368
00:18:33,386 --> 00:18:38,470
Ah, the medicine and the
method of ensuring correct use.
369
00:18:39,410 --> 00:18:39,866
Right.
370
00:18:39,938 --> 00:18:42,874
And this is an interesting
conversation that gets us into the
371
00:18:42,882 --> 00:18:44,410
territory of specialization.
372
00:18:44,490 --> 00:18:47,898
For example, is it okay to
specialize in just doing strategy
373
00:18:47,914 --> 00:18:51,722
or just doing diagnosis work
versus specializing in just doing
374
00:18:51,826 --> 00:18:53,152
implementation work?
375
00:18:53,306 --> 00:18:57,556
And I can think of a dozen
reasons why it's useful the majority
376
00:18:57,588 --> 00:19:01,700
of times to specialize in
terms of skill and approach and business
377
00:19:01,740 --> 00:19:04,644
development and client
relationships, to specialize in diagnosis
378
00:19:04,692 --> 00:19:07,028
rather than implementation and
vice versa.
379
00:19:07,204 --> 00:19:09,604
But it's also a bit of a trap.
380
00:19:09,732 --> 00:19:12,948
You can't do good diagnosis,
you can't do good strategy, I don't
381
00:19:12,964 --> 00:19:17,444
think, unless somebody in the
team can also interpret what implementation
382
00:19:17,572 --> 00:19:18,452
is going to look like.
383
00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:20,820
And that's, I think, what was
missing in the story that you told
384
00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:21,440
there.
385
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,344
Similarly, I don't think you
can do good implementation unless
386
00:19:24,392 --> 00:19:27,240
you've got a really good
skeptical eye for what the business
387
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,352
case was, for what the
diagnosis was.
388
00:19:29,536 --> 00:19:33,000
To put it another way, Mike,
simply answering the what should
389
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:38,184
you do and why question is not
useful on its own unless somebody
390
00:19:38,232 --> 00:19:42,744
at some Point also asks how,
like, if we get there, how are we
391
00:19:42,752 --> 00:19:43,940
going to take it forward?
392
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:51,846
But, you know, it also strikes
me it's so important about understanding
393
00:19:51,958 --> 00:19:54,758
what's in the mind of your client.
394
00:19:54,934 --> 00:19:59,286
You know, not just, oh, I'm
really happy with this, or I'm persuaded
395
00:19:59,318 --> 00:20:01,846
by what you said, but why?
396
00:20:01,918 --> 00:20:03,750
And what are they actually thinking?
397
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:08,790
I remember running into this
in my university days when I was
398
00:20:08,830 --> 00:20:13,910
on the receiving line of calls
to the Human Sexuality Counseling
399
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:14,810
Hotline.
400
00:20:15,150 --> 00:20:16,438
And this is going to be good.
401
00:20:16,574 --> 00:20:17,030
Yeah.
402
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:17,970
I had.
403
00:20:19,150 --> 00:20:24,022
I thought that the presented
problem was somebody's skepticism
404
00:20:24,086 --> 00:20:27,078
about the effectiveness of
birth control pills.
405
00:20:27,174 --> 00:20:30,726
And we had a nice conversation.
406
00:20:30,838 --> 00:20:34,582
We went back and forth about
the statistics about the relative
407
00:20:34,646 --> 00:20:37,450
efficiency of different
methods of contraception.
408
00:20:37,790 --> 00:20:40,134
And I thought we were all good.
409
00:20:40,302 --> 00:20:45,456
And her final or her next to
last comment was, I just find that
410
00:20:45,528 --> 00:20:50,256
so hard to believe because
every time I stand up, the pills
411
00:20:50,288 --> 00:20:51,180
fall out.
412
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,584
And I realized I really had
not done a good job of understanding
413
00:20:57,632 --> 00:21:02,080
what was on the mind of my
client and ensuring the method of
414
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:03,008
correct use.
415
00:21:03,144 --> 00:21:04,272
Very good.
416
00:21:04,456 --> 00:21:07,872
Well, part of me would like to
imagine how the call ended, but I
417
00:21:07,896 --> 00:21:10,828
think we'll just leave it
there for the sake of decency.
418
00:21:11,004 --> 00:21:12,204
Wow, Mike.
419
00:21:12,332 --> 00:21:15,372
And I guess lots of us have
got stories about clients that thought
420
00:21:15,396 --> 00:21:17,932
they understood our advice,
but we had not really made it clear
421
00:21:17,956 --> 00:21:18,680
for them.
422
00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:20,332
Excellent.
423
00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:24,400
So, Mike, so far we've dealt
with doctors, attitudes to illness,
424
00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:27,440
consultants, attitudes to
clients, problems.
425
00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:30,796
In the next three secrets,
we're going to look at the decisions
426
00:21:30,828 --> 00:21:35,670
that patients make, or rather
the clients make, based on our advice.
427
00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:36,910
Stick around.
428
00:21:43,770 --> 00:21:48,430
Number four, if what they've
been doing hasn't solved the problem,
429
00:21:49,210 --> 00:21:53,030
tell them to do something else.
430
00:21:53,610 --> 00:21:56,722
And I think a couple of
implications here.
431
00:21:56,826 --> 00:22:02,610
One is this bedrock principle
that says, in order to apply this
432
00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:06,254
principle, you have to know
what they've been doing.
433
00:22:06,422 --> 00:22:10,190
You have to have asked about
it, you have to understand it as
434
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:11,598
otherwise we're going to do that.
435
00:22:11,734 --> 00:22:14,638
And to get a little bit
underneath this to say, well, wait
436
00:22:14,654 --> 00:22:17,278
a minute, if what they've been
doing hasn't solved the problem,
437
00:22:17,334 --> 00:22:18,446
tell them to do something else.
438
00:22:18,478 --> 00:22:20,462
On the one hand, that could
just be logical.
439
00:22:20,526 --> 00:22:24,030
You know, keep doing the same
thing, you keep getting the same
440
00:22:24,070 --> 00:22:24,606
results.
441
00:22:24,758 --> 00:22:28,526
But the other part is not just
logical, it's psychological.
442
00:22:28,638 --> 00:22:33,856
It's the fact that we're
perhaps telling them to do something
443
00:22:34,008 --> 00:22:38,160
that in their minds they've
already done and it didn't work.
444
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,020
And I think we'll come back to
that one.
445
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,144
It's funny, it's something
that's almost always there in the
446
00:22:46,152 --> 00:22:47,184
record, if we just ask for it.
447
00:22:47,192 --> 00:22:49,104
Like, what have they tried already?
448
00:22:49,192 --> 00:22:50,592
What have they tried so far?
449
00:22:50,696 --> 00:22:53,888
But so often I've seen
consultants forget to ask.
450
00:22:53,944 --> 00:22:56,432
We're quite obsessed with what
we're going to recommend and what
451
00:22:56,456 --> 00:22:56,880
comes next.
452
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,304
It's a really smart thing to ask.
453
00:22:58,392 --> 00:22:58,598
What.
454
00:22:58,624 --> 00:23:00,030
What have they already tried?
455
00:23:00,850 --> 00:23:04,298
So moving on then to secret
number five.
456
00:23:04,434 --> 00:23:06,698
This gets me into one of our
favorite areas, Mike.
457
00:23:06,794 --> 00:23:07,466
Pricing.
458
00:23:07,578 --> 00:23:09,354
Let's talk about money for a minute.
459
00:23:09,482 --> 00:23:12,442
This, from a doctor's
perspective, sounds very cynical.
460
00:23:12,586 --> 00:23:16,470
Make sure they pay you enough
so they'll do what you say.
461
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:22,714
And maybe this is going to
sound a little bit less cynical from
462
00:23:22,722 --> 00:23:24,352
the point of view of a consultant.
463
00:23:24,546 --> 00:23:25,732
Let's put it this way.
464
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:30,468
The more your advice is likely
to be unfamiliar, unpalatable, or
465
00:23:30,524 --> 00:23:34,340
counterintuitive, the more
billable hours it's going to take,
466
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:39,524
especially from your seniors,
to explain and rationalize and persuade
467
00:23:39,572 --> 00:23:42,692
and build consensus, most
importantly, about acting on the
468
00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:43,620
recommendations.
469
00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:46,676
So the bigger and scarier the
advice is going to be, the more effort
470
00:23:46,708 --> 00:23:48,836
it's going to take, the more
high value effort it's going to take
471
00:23:48,908 --> 00:23:50,736
for the client to say, okay,
let's do it.
472
00:23:50,828 --> 00:23:53,400
And therefore the fee budget
goes up.
473
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,616
So there's a nice, I think a
reasonably honorable cause and effect
474
00:23:56,688 --> 00:23:57,656
in that direction.
475
00:23:57,768 --> 00:24:00,264
The more tricky the advice is
likely to be, the more expensive
476
00:24:00,312 --> 00:24:03,496
it's going to be to get it and
to believe it and to buy into it.
477
00:24:03,648 --> 00:24:05,980
But there's a more cynical
perspective, right, Mike?
478
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:07,640
Well, there is.
479
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,032
From a cynical perspective,
the fee budget reflects the ego of
480
00:24:11,056 --> 00:24:13,864
the consultants and the person
buying their services.
481
00:24:14,032 --> 00:24:17,608
And if the fees are super
high, then the recommendations had
482
00:24:17,664 --> 00:24:20,552
better be really amazing and unexpected.
483
00:24:20,696 --> 00:24:24,916
Or if this vodka is priced
higher than that vodka, it's gotta
484
00:24:24,948 --> 00:24:26,360
be a better vodka.
485
00:24:27,820 --> 00:24:31,172
And you know, to a certain
extent, the market takes care of
486
00:24:31,196 --> 00:24:31,428
that.
487
00:24:31,484 --> 00:24:34,356
And there are firms, and you
all know the names of the firms I'm
488
00:24:34,388 --> 00:24:35,108
thinking about.
489
00:24:35,244 --> 00:24:38,308
There are firms out there that
make a big margin and charge a large
490
00:24:38,364 --> 00:24:40,340
fee based on both of these rationales.
491
00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:42,964
First of all, if it's that
expensive, the advice must be great.
492
00:24:43,052 --> 00:24:46,388
But also, if they're going to
make really scary advice stick, they're
493
00:24:46,404 --> 00:24:48,558
going to have to put a lot of
effort in and there's a lot of value
494
00:24:48,614 --> 00:24:49,294
behind that.
495
00:24:49,382 --> 00:24:50,606
So this, this kind of works.
496
00:24:50,638 --> 00:24:53,262
I'm, I'm happier ascribing
this secret to consultants, actually,
497
00:24:53,366 --> 00:24:56,798
than to physicians, at least
in a world outside the United States.
498
00:24:56,854 --> 00:24:57,374
Mike.
499
00:24:57,502 --> 00:25:00,622
And I like our Irish
grandmother who reminds us that if
500
00:25:00,646 --> 00:25:03,374
it was really important, I'D
actually have to pay something for
501
00:25:03,382 --> 00:25:03,550
it.
502
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:06,542
And if I don't have to pay
anything for it, then I'm, you know,
503
00:25:06,566 --> 00:25:06,910
a lot.
504
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:09,870
It's a lot easier for me to
say, oh, well, it doesn't matter
505
00:25:09,910 --> 00:25:10,830
whether I take it or not.
506
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:12,046
Wait, that cost me.
507
00:25:12,118 --> 00:25:13,214
That cost me a pound.
508
00:25:13,262 --> 00:25:15,038
Wait, no, no, no, I'm going to
take that.
509
00:25:15,174 --> 00:25:16,290
Yeah, exactly.
510
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,152
If anybody knows anybody who's
been taking Wegovy or Mounjaro these
511
00:25:21,176 --> 00:25:24,464
days, the GLP1s the big weight
loss drugs, not for every patient,
512
00:25:24,512 --> 00:25:27,232
but most doctors will say the
first and the cheapest and the most
513
00:25:27,256 --> 00:25:30,000
effective thing you can do is
reduce your calorie intake, improve
514
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,488
your diet and do some exercise.
515
00:25:31,584 --> 00:25:35,984
Those things are relatively
cheap, almost free, at least in pharmaceutical
516
00:25:36,032 --> 00:25:36,288
terms.
517
00:25:36,344 --> 00:25:39,760
But maybe there's some truth
to the idea that the more you believe
518
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,112
is being spent on the
treatment, the more likely it is
519
00:25:42,136 --> 00:25:43,502
that you might stick with it.
520
00:25:43,696 --> 00:25:44,430
Discuss.
521
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:49,154
Anyhow, Mike, we've done five
out of six of the Secrets of Marvin.
522
00:25:49,202 --> 00:25:50,530
Let's get down to the last one here.
523
00:25:50,570 --> 00:25:52,162
What is secret number six?
524
00:25:52,346 --> 00:25:59,070
Secret number six, Know how
pays much less than know when.
525
00:25:59,370 --> 00:26:03,202
And for Jerry, you know, this
is an interesting one because I thought,
526
00:26:03,226 --> 00:26:04,242
well, wait a minute.
527
00:26:04,306 --> 00:26:07,362
Know how pays much less than
know when.
528
00:26:07,466 --> 00:26:10,930
But that's a little bit of our
specialist generalist thing.
529
00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:15,778
But it's also this, Jerry says
that this list of secrets and its
530
00:26:15,834 --> 00:26:18,786
version, whether it's the
medical version or the engineer's
531
00:26:18,818 --> 00:26:23,378
version, lawyers, consultants,
for any consulting specialty is very
532
00:26:23,434 --> 00:26:23,938
important.
533
00:26:24,074 --> 00:26:28,770
But some of our greatest value
as consultants isn't just in the
534
00:26:28,810 --> 00:26:36,670
secrets themselves, but in our
ability to know when to apply them.
535
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:42,692
So, for example, not resting
your case on number one, it's going
536
00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,308
to cure itself, when in fact,
what we've got is a number two situation
537
00:26:46,404 --> 00:26:47,040
here.
538
00:26:49,420 --> 00:26:51,364
Now, it's a common objection.
539
00:26:51,412 --> 00:26:53,780
Once you get into the guts of
a consulting project and you start
540
00:26:53,820 --> 00:26:56,916
generating conclusions and
recommendations, it's a common objection
541
00:26:56,948 --> 00:26:59,956
to a recommendation that the
client might say, well, we tried
542
00:26:59,988 --> 00:27:01,684
that before and it didn't work.
543
00:27:01,772 --> 00:27:05,360
Or we looked at it two years
ago and we chose not to pursue it
544
00:27:05,740 --> 00:27:09,428
with the implied meaning that
that's therefore not a great recommendation.
545
00:27:09,604 --> 00:27:13,220
But actually, lots of the
value in consulting is actually in
546
00:27:13,260 --> 00:27:18,964
helping clients believe that
this relatively obvious, expected,
547
00:27:19,132 --> 00:27:22,580
fashionable, straightforward
thing, believing that this thing
548
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,280
for this thing, now is the
right time.
549
00:27:25,740 --> 00:27:28,388
And you could take AI as an
example, Mike.
550
00:27:28,484 --> 00:27:34,260
The idea that software driven
AI could revolutionize business,
551
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,840
it's certainly been around for
a little while.
552
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,072
It's certainly been true that
AI based tools have existed in all
553
00:27:40,096 --> 00:27:44,408
kinds of computer software and
personal devices and, you know, it,
554
00:27:44,464 --> 00:27:45,816
productivity apps.
555
00:27:46,008 --> 00:27:50,280
But now is the time for a
whole bunch of reasons, some of them
556
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,128
real and rational and
economic, some of them really technical,
557
00:27:53,224 --> 00:27:56,296
some of them just a little bit
emotional, and some of them outright
558
00:27:56,328 --> 00:27:56,840
commercial.
559
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,448
Now is the time that we are
being encouraged to take advantage
560
00:27:59,464 --> 00:28:00,300
of AI.
561
00:28:00,730 --> 00:28:04,610
So you don't just need to know
that the solution lies there.
562
00:28:04,650 --> 00:28:07,202
You need to know and believe
that now is the right time to take
563
00:28:07,226 --> 00:28:07,810
advantage of it.
564
00:28:07,850 --> 00:28:10,802
I think getting that sense of
urgency is a really important thing
565
00:28:10,826 --> 00:28:13,490
in helping our clients go
ahead and reach the point of making
566
00:28:13,530 --> 00:28:14,270
a decision.
567
00:28:15,130 --> 00:28:19,618
We've talked a good bit about
these secrets of consulting and trying
568
00:28:19,674 --> 00:28:24,290
to figure out what to try in
real life.
569
00:28:24,410 --> 00:28:25,458
Let's get to that.
570
00:28:25,514 --> 00:28:30,120
So if I'm listening right now,
what could I be doing about this?
571
00:28:36,820 --> 00:28:40,076
So, Mike, first of all, if any
of our listeners is in the frame
572
00:28:40,108 --> 00:28:43,244
of mind to take up a new book
about consulting, go out there and
573
00:28:43,252 --> 00:28:44,780
get hold of Jerry Weinberg's book.
574
00:28:44,820 --> 00:28:48,652
It has aged really well since
the mid-80s when he first put it
575
00:28:48,676 --> 00:28:49,276
to paper.
576
00:28:49,388 --> 00:28:52,156
And it's fascinating and funny
and wise.
577
00:28:52,268 --> 00:28:55,240
Hence, we've had fun making an
episode or two out of it.
578
00:28:55,700 --> 00:29:00,444
And I would also say, go back
to the learnings from the main episode.
579
00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:03,916
Give it a try paying attention
to that third project.
580
00:29:04,068 --> 00:29:07,420
If you're at third project
stage, then that's a moment to take
581
00:29:07,460 --> 00:29:11,132
stock, to get feedback, make
sure your team are enjoying it, make
582
00:29:11,156 --> 00:29:13,756
sure the client and the firm
are profiting from it, because that's
583
00:29:13,788 --> 00:29:16,748
a really great moment in the
life of your relationship, and it's
584
00:29:16,764 --> 00:29:19,320
a critical moment for thinking
about where to go next.
585
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,228
I think that's a great idea.
586
00:29:21,324 --> 00:29:22,684
So, you know, third project.
587
00:29:22,772 --> 00:29:23,436
There you go.
588
00:29:23,508 --> 00:29:24,680
Great takeaways.
589
00:29:24,860 --> 00:29:29,152
But if you're contemplating a
project, perhaps you're even in a
590
00:29:29,176 --> 00:29:32,752
business development
opportunity right now, or writing
591
00:29:32,816 --> 00:29:36,992
a proposal or starting a
project, you might want to go down
592
00:29:37,016 --> 00:29:38,336
the Marvin list here.
593
00:29:38,408 --> 00:29:43,040
You might want to say, wait a
minute, is this something that would
594
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,560
cure itself?
595
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,232
And if so, how should I be
handling that?
596
00:29:47,256 --> 00:29:50,574
And is that what we're doing
with this client at this time?
597
00:29:50,752 --> 00:29:51,522
Right.
598
00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:54,866
We could be asking ourselves
as we sit down to write that proposal,
599
00:29:54,978 --> 00:29:58,882
are we showing the client that
we know and care about both sides
600
00:29:58,946 --> 00:30:01,474
of implementation and diagnosis?
601
00:30:01,602 --> 00:30:03,870
Not hanging too heavily on our
specialty there?
602
00:30:05,450 --> 00:30:09,938
Does our pricing represent the
importance and complexity of our
603
00:30:09,994 --> 00:30:12,066
likely recommendations?
604
00:30:12,258 --> 00:30:16,648
And what is it doing about
signaling the value of this project
605
00:30:16,834 --> 00:30:20,748
both to the client and to ourselves?
606
00:30:20,924 --> 00:30:22,000
Exactly.
607
00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:25,740
We should ask ourselves as
well, Mike, have they tried this
608
00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:26,220
before?
609
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:27,596
Let's take a look at history.
610
00:30:27,668 --> 00:30:28,684
What have they tried already?
611
00:30:28,772 --> 00:30:29,852
What's been the outcome?
612
00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:32,012
Because there's going to be
some learning and some context for
613
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:33,868
us there, right?
614
00:30:34,004 --> 00:30:35,532
And why now?
615
00:30:35,636 --> 00:30:40,636
You know, we just said it's
the know how, but the know when might
616
00:30:40,708 --> 00:30:42,098
even be more important.
617
00:30:42,284 --> 00:30:46,726
So have we just written about
and discussed and understood the
618
00:30:46,878 --> 00:30:47,894
know what?
619
00:30:48,062 --> 00:30:52,262
Or have we really put
ourselves in a position to nail with
620
00:30:52,286 --> 00:30:57,430
ourselves and the client, the
know when, the why now of all this
621
00:30:57,550 --> 00:30:58,614
fantastic.
622
00:30:58,742 --> 00:31:02,102
Well, we hope all of those are
a little jog towards things that
623
00:31:02,126 --> 00:31:04,022
you can do to apply some other learning.
624
00:31:04,086 --> 00:31:07,014
We hope that you've enjoyed at
least listening along to some of
625
00:31:07,022 --> 00:31:08,538
the Jerry Weinberg material.
626
00:31:08,694 --> 00:31:10,978
That's it for our show for
this week.
627
00:31:11,114 --> 00:31:13,554
As always, we'd love to hear
what you think.
628
00:31:13,642 --> 00:31:16,706
We'd love to hear more as well
about books and ideas and concepts
629
00:31:16,738 --> 00:31:19,550
that you'd like us to debate
and debunk a little bit.
630
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:24,178
So please join us next time on
the Consulting for Humans podcast
631
00:31:24,274 --> 00:31:27,670
and be with us with the luminaries.
632
00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:34,260
It.
