Internal Advisor: Understanding Before Being Understood

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Welcome luminaries.
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Thank you so much for joining us.
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As we dig deeper in a new way
this week, Mike, we're digging into
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our first set of listener
questions and our answers to those
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questions.
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We've got a long and diverse
list of questions.
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Let's see where our answers
take us.
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Mike, help us get into it here.
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Well, it's a great set of
questions yet about human life in
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consulting.
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So very much on target for the
podcast here.
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So today we're going to talk
about setting boundaries, doing work
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for free.
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The definition of a real in
air quotes consultant.
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The most difficult thing we've
ever done as consultants.
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Who is like a consultant but
isn't actually one, and how firms
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can make the best use of ex
clients vs long term consultants
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and how that team is composed.
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Okay, so questions about that,
the big picture and the details of
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life as a consultant.
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We're also going to touch on a
really funny article that we've come
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across from the Economist.
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We'll get into sharing you
economist consultant baiting humor
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right at the end of the
episode here.
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Now let's get back into these questions.
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Mike, we were asked this by
someone who I think is thinking through
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how to cope with the
consultant work ethic.
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How?
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Asks our listener, how do I
set boundaries for working after
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hours?
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Now we've heard about this
from listeners.
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We've also seen a bit about
this on LinkedIn from folks in the
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profession as well.
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So this seems like it has the
chance to be something of a hot topic.
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What do you think, Mike?
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How do we set boundaries?
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I think it is a great
question, Ian.
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I mean, without boundaries you
run the risk of burnout in any profession.
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But I think consulting is
particularly susceptible to it.
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Like so much of what we've
discussed in the past four weeks,
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it's a matter of balance and
prioritization here.
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So I for me, one thing that
helps is to remember that we teach
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people how to treat us.
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So we're teaching our clients,
we're teaching our bosses, we're
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teaching our peers.
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So part of that is how you are
going to get sucked into this is
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going to depend a lot on what
you do and how you behave and what
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you establish with people that
you are and are not willing to do,
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Right?
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So a little bit we get the
behavior from others that we educate
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them to be.
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Okay.
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Now Mike, at some point in the
show we're going to have to dig into
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getting you to tell your
fantastic feeding the Swans story
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because I think that kind of
relates here.
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But I think we'll save that
for another moment.
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We'll save that for a
forthcoming episode.
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So we should try to think
about how people learn from how we
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behave towards them.
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I think it's also going to be
a good idea, just at the very simple
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practical level, to have a
discussion either in the team or
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in the firm or with just you
and the boss about working hours.
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Talk about it early and
refresh that conversation often.
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What's the policy?
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What are our objectives?
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What's everybody's at home
situation as well, a little bit.
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And what are the consequences
for us all?
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Some people with some
particular kind of patterns of their
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working lives and their
personal lives will have particular
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times when they know they can
be available for work activities
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and when they need time for
some personal and leisure and self
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care activities.
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If we can talk about what the
boundaries are and talk about it
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calmly and talk about it
openly and positively, then maybe
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we can help to reduce the
number of times when we have to think
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about curtailing unnecessary overtime.
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Because as we said in our lazy
versus hardworking episode, Mike,
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lots of the extra hours that
people work are actually unnecessary
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and a bit unproductive.
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Not everything is an
emergency, unless maybe you as the
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consultant have become
complicit in making it one.
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So give yourself some rules
about staying away from work texts
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and emails and voicemails and
calls, except in limited circumstances
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outside of designated hours.
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I will say one more thing,
Michael, before I pass this back
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to you for a few more thoughts here.
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I wouldn't caution against
saying never because I can also think
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of some genuine emergent
situations that come under the heading
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of outside hours that were
really great learning opportunities
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for me, that were a chance for
me to grow in my career.
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So I'm not going to say never.
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I'm going to say let's keep
talking about it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Yeah.
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And I think one of the things
I see people get sucked down the
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vortex is they happen to be up
for whatever reason at 2am and that
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text or whatever comes in and
they respond immediately because
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that's how we're starting to
teach people.
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Yeah, how to treat us, that
they'll start expecting us to respond
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at 2am they'll expect us to do
these things on off hours and if
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it's not an emergency, as you
said, maybe save it.
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I used to love the thing that
used to allow me to respond to emails
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and set what time my reply was
going to go back out so that despite
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working in crazy time zones
around the world, I made sure that
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my response was going to come
back to that person.
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Maybe 9am in their time zone,
not at 1am in mind.
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Right.
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I think we need to know the
difference between out of hours and
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emergency.
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Not everything that comes up
out of hours is emergency.
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Not everything that is an
emergency needs to be taken care
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of out of hours.
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There is such a thing as an emergency.
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And people who can't tell the
difference, I think are going to
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have a hard time whether
they're on the boss side of things
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or on the employee side of things.
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Right.
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So we're going to have to be
good at time management.
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We're going to have to be good
as well, I think, Mike, at judging
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results.
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And this is, I think a
perfectly sensible answer to lots
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of the debate around working hours.
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It shouldn't really be about
making sure that your face is seen
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or that your emails and your
IMs are seen at a particular time
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of the day.
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It's got to be about the results.
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Because we get paid for results.
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Our clients pay us for results
delivered in good quality and on
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time.
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And I think we should all feel
that the project's shared success
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is our shared success.
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But that success is going to
come by us being good at talking
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about time, good at delivering
effectively within the time budgets
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that we have and encouraging
everybody else to do their share.
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Yeah, absolutely agree.
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And I think it's important to
learn how to say no and how to say
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no in the right way.
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So quick freebie hint here.
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Learn about the power of a
positive no.
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And I would just say, hey,
Google that.
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Google that.
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Power of a positive no.
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Some great wisdom from one of
the alumni of the Harvard Negotiation
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Project.
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Excellent.
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So thank you.
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That was a great question to
get us started and a good dose of
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real life in consulting, I think.
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Mike, here's our next question.
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And this is in a slightly
different world from the corporate
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world of project managers and
employees and partners and associates.
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This is from the world of self employment.
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This person says, I'm a self
employed consultant and my client
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often asks me for something
for free before they commit to a
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contract.
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How do I respond?
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So this isn't even scope
creep, Mike.
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This is the client sliding in
a request for a freebie as a kind
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of inducement to be given the project.
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And it already has a little
bit of a difficult taste in my mouth,
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this one.
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What do you think is our
advice here?
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It's, it's funny.
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And the thought also comes to
mind, remember, we teach people how
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to treat us.
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We also teach people what our
work products are worth.
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But with that in mind, I would
say at first, maybe Consider just
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saying no and see what their
response is.
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They may be asking for the
simple reason that it's worked for
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them before.
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And maybe you want to find
out, is this just a, you know, is
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this just a routine ask that
really doesn't have great consequence
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or not?
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Right.
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Indeed, indeed.
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Though be a little bit
patient, be a little bit curious.
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Yes.
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I think it's worth bearing in
mind that we get the chance to choose
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what it is that we agree to do
for free or for very little.
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As a kind of introducer, and I
would say let's avoid giving a freebie
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that has very obvious costs
and timescales associated with it.
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I think it can be a smart
thing to offer something for free
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that's intangible advice is
intangible and potentially priceless
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activity.
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Something that has a hard
scope like a document or a report
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or attendance at an event, has
a sort of very clear and obvious
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investment of time.
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And I don't think I like the
idea of letting people feel like
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they can control our time just
for the asking.
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Yeah.
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And certainly if you're going
to consider doing it, measure it
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against all the other
marketing investments you could be
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making with your non billable time.
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Is this going to show you at
your best?
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Is it going to build trust?
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The genuine desire to buy on
their side?
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Is it something you'd enjoy
and learn from doing it yet you've
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got to create some value on
your own.
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Well, if the answer to those
are all yes, then maybe it's worth
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doing.
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Now I would add anytime I
think there's a Scope Creek thing,
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anytime there's an ask for
something like this, I always want
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to make sure that we determine
what the value is to the person making
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the request because we're
about to perhaps agree to say for
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free, which then becomes in
their mind the value of whatever
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we're going to do.
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So as you say, let's ask those questions.
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Why do you want this?
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What are you going to do with this?
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How is that going to add value?
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How's it going to help you?
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And let's create the value
that's going to come and then decide
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whether that's free or
something else or what we're going
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to ask for in exchange for that.
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Yeah, very good, Very good.
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I like this idea of just
continually testing out the link
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between our work product and value.
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Yeah.
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Now we talk about this a lot
with our coaching clients.
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We talk about time and time
management a lot with our corporate
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clients for a number of
different reasons.
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We're going to come back to
this idea of scope and scope creep
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because it's part of the
eternal life of a consultant, wherever
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you're working, however you're working.
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So, Mike, we've talked about
handling client requests for freebies.
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This next question here digs
into identity a little bit, which
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is something we've played with
already on previous episodes of the
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show.
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Take us into this one here.
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Well, I love this one.
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Our listener said, when I say
to friends and family that I'm a
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consultant, it seems like
everyone else in my friendship circle
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knows someone else who's a consultant.
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But what they're doing seems
very different from what I do.
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They might be writing software
or doing market research or selling
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soft furnishing or home appliances.
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Which of these is right?
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Is there a definition of who's
a real consultant?
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Ian, what do you think?
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Well, Mike, it's.
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Where does an answer come from?
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Part of the authority.
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And an answer comes from
looking it up.
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So we looked it up.
245
00:12:06,341 --> 00:12:09,709
Dictionary definition says a
consultant is someone who provides
246
00:12:09,757 --> 00:12:13,711
expert advice or services in a
particular field, either to organizations
247
00:12:13,743 --> 00:12:14,875
or individuals.
248
00:12:15,335 --> 00:12:20,287
This includes characteristics
such as providing expertise or support
249
00:12:20,431 --> 00:12:21,875
that the client lacks.
250
00:12:22,255 --> 00:12:25,583
Providing an independent
perspective, operating from the outside
251
00:12:25,639 --> 00:12:28,295
as it were, bringing an
objective third party view.
252
00:12:28,375 --> 00:12:30,743
And I think we might come back
to that shortly as well.
253
00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:35,695
And working in a professional
manner with appropriate qualifications.
254
00:12:35,855 --> 00:12:39,971
So my first answer to the
question is if you'd like to be sure
255
00:12:40,003 --> 00:12:44,627
of your own status, then think
about yourself against those criteria.
256
00:12:44,731 --> 00:12:46,683
If you're doubting someone
else's status.
257
00:12:46,779 --> 00:12:49,595
If you want to invest your
time in doubting someone else's status,
258
00:12:49,635 --> 00:12:52,619
then you could think about it
against those criteria of expertise
259
00:12:52,667 --> 00:12:55,491
and being independent and
working professionally.
260
00:12:55,683 --> 00:12:59,299
What else do you think might
come into this idea of working professionally
261
00:12:59,347 --> 00:12:59,935
here?
262
00:13:00,475 --> 00:13:04,861
So while many roles can be
considered consulting, be a real
263
00:13:04,933 --> 00:13:08,813
consultant is somebody who has
that ability to provide the advice
264
00:13:08,869 --> 00:13:13,285
or solutions to somebody that
add value, whatever their area of
265
00:13:13,325 --> 00:13:15,365
specialization or expertise.
266
00:13:15,485 --> 00:13:21,085
And if you're providing an
independent perspective and providing
267
00:13:21,125 --> 00:13:24,373
advice and your clients are
paying for the advice, then I think
268
00:13:24,389 --> 00:13:28,373
it's fair to call yourself a
consultant regardless of which industry
269
00:13:28,429 --> 00:13:32,221
or focus area employs you,
Whether the consultant label is a
270
00:13:32,253 --> 00:13:34,813
commonly given one in your
industry or not.
271
00:13:34,909 --> 00:13:38,105
I don't think there's any
reason to mind about the client.
272
00:13:38,565 --> 00:13:42,397
Might be even your employer,
it might be the firm that you work
273
00:13:42,421 --> 00:13:42,629
for.
274
00:13:42,677 --> 00:13:45,365
There are people in our
industry who are internal consultants
275
00:13:45,405 --> 00:13:47,181
and they go by different names
as well.
276
00:13:47,293 --> 00:13:50,741
I think we should probably be
cautious about being too precious
277
00:13:50,853 --> 00:13:51,541
about the title.
278
00:13:51,573 --> 00:13:54,597
I mean, I think it's good and
honorable, that we feel proud of
279
00:13:54,621 --> 00:13:56,743
our profession and proud of
the value that we bring.
280
00:13:56,869 --> 00:13:59,707
But I don't think we've got
very much to stand on.
281
00:13:59,811 --> 00:14:02,427
Is there, do you think, a
legal definition anywhere of who's
282
00:14:02,451 --> 00:14:03,355
a consultant?
283
00:14:03,515 --> 00:14:04,171
You know what?
284
00:14:04,243 --> 00:14:07,443
I think it varies from country
to country, but in most places, certainly
285
00:14:07,499 --> 00:14:11,267
places that I've worked, there
isn't a formal legal qualification
286
00:14:11,331 --> 00:14:16,459
or a protected professional
status the way there are for doctors
287
00:14:16,507 --> 00:14:18,011
or lawyers or accountants.
288
00:14:18,083 --> 00:14:21,915
And that's probably a good
thing both ways, right?
289
00:14:22,035 --> 00:14:23,919
I think it's a good thing that
they have them.
290
00:14:24,027 --> 00:14:28,119
I think perhaps it's a good
thing that we don't because of the
291
00:14:28,287 --> 00:14:33,039
variety, the huge variety of
people who do and do well.
292
00:14:33,127 --> 00:14:33,687
Consulting.
293
00:14:33,751 --> 00:14:36,879
We said before the show, bail
bondsmen have a professional status.
294
00:14:36,927 --> 00:14:37,543
Right.
295
00:14:37,719 --> 00:14:39,111
Sex workers don't.
296
00:14:39,303 --> 00:14:40,935
Yeah, exactly.
297
00:14:41,055 --> 00:14:42,623
So where do we fall in that category?
298
00:14:42,679 --> 00:14:43,519
Exactly.
299
00:14:43,687 --> 00:14:44,475
Yeah.
300
00:14:45,015 --> 00:14:46,519
Ed, you had a.
301
00:14:46,647 --> 00:14:48,231
An interesting thought there.
302
00:14:48,383 --> 00:14:50,671
If somebody out there is
worried that, hey, there are others
303
00:14:50,743 --> 00:14:53,657
encroaching on their
profession, this is.
304
00:14:53,681 --> 00:14:54,153
Right.
305
00:14:54,289 --> 00:14:55,881
This is the Consulting for
Humans podcast.
306
00:14:55,913 --> 00:14:59,113
So we're getting back again, I
think, to the human aspect of this.
307
00:14:59,209 --> 00:15:01,977
If you're feeling a little bit
like somebody else is encroaching
308
00:15:02,001 --> 00:15:05,633
on your turf, if that feels
like a bit of a threat, I can completely
309
00:15:05,689 --> 00:15:07,165
understand how that is.
310
00:15:07,625 --> 00:15:08,657
But you know what?
311
00:15:08,761 --> 00:15:10,793
If you're worried that
somebody else is parking their tanks
312
00:15:10,809 --> 00:15:14,865
on your consulting lawn, maybe
that's just the very beginnings of
313
00:15:14,905 --> 00:15:19,407
incipient consultant imposter
syndrome taking its effect.
314
00:15:19,601 --> 00:15:20,899
Welcome to the club.
315
00:15:21,067 --> 00:15:22,775
We're getting T shirts made.
316
00:15:23,235 --> 00:15:26,123
Meanwhile, Mike, there's
enough work, Honestly, there's enough
317
00:15:26,179 --> 00:15:29,051
work for all of us, or at
least there will be in 2025.
318
00:15:29,203 --> 00:15:33,115
So let's relax, and we can be
a little bit generous.
319
00:15:33,155 --> 00:15:35,627
I think we can afford to be
generous with our definition of who's
320
00:15:35,651 --> 00:15:37,695
a consultant and who's not.
321
00:15:44,315 --> 00:15:45,851
The next question is a great one.
322
00:15:45,883 --> 00:15:48,979
This is one of those ones, I
think, that I've heard on panels.
323
00:15:49,067 --> 00:15:51,775
I've heard from people new to
the industry.
324
00:15:52,075 --> 00:15:55,915
I've heard when we're out for
drinks and old hands in the industry,
325
00:15:56,035 --> 00:15:59,779
having this chat about what's
the most difficult thing you've ever
326
00:15:59,827 --> 00:16:01,723
had to do as a consultant?
327
00:16:01,819 --> 00:16:06,979
For me, I can think of a
number of things here, but one of
328
00:16:06,987 --> 00:16:14,025
the ones that jumps to mind
really stemmed from my work in turnarounds.
329
00:16:14,155 --> 00:16:14,445
Right.
330
00:16:14,485 --> 00:16:19,533
Because clearly we had firms
that were dead or dying, and we were
331
00:16:19,709 --> 00:16:23,865
coming in to try to stem that,
turn that around.
332
00:16:24,285 --> 00:16:30,237
And I very quickly learned to
ask a question of the people who
333
00:16:30,261 --> 00:16:32,709
were Hiring us, particularly
people who are going to be directing
334
00:16:32,757 --> 00:16:33,661
our work.
335
00:16:33,813 --> 00:16:36,221
And I would say something
like, in the course of determining
336
00:16:36,253 --> 00:16:40,773
the answer to your current
problem, if we find out that you
337
00:16:40,829 --> 00:16:46,039
are a significant source of
the problem, do you want us to tell
338
00:16:46,087 --> 00:16:48,759
you or should we call that out?
339
00:16:48,927 --> 00:16:55,887
And if people said no, then I
really, I tried to make it a policy
340
00:16:55,951 --> 00:16:59,751
to pass on that engagement
because I thought this is something
341
00:16:59,783 --> 00:17:02,871
that I found incredibly difficult.
342
00:17:02,983 --> 00:17:09,895
Yeah, I remember specifically
one big exception to that policy
343
00:17:09,975 --> 00:17:14,361
was when we jumped in to save
a failing engagement, one that we
344
00:17:14,393 --> 00:17:15,445
hadn't sold.
345
00:17:15,745 --> 00:17:23,785
It was really in the ditch and
parachuted in and the project was
346
00:17:23,825 --> 00:17:26,169
being run by a me, a cxo.
347
00:17:26,217 --> 00:17:29,485
Let me in anonymity here, let
just put that there.
348
00:17:29,865 --> 00:17:36,809
And clearly that person was a
significant source of the problem
349
00:17:36,897 --> 00:17:40,087
and was standing in the way of
a solution.
350
00:17:40,281 --> 00:17:44,499
I had that conversation to say
this is what we're finding.
351
00:17:44,587 --> 00:17:49,307
And I was told in no uncertain
terms that none of that was going
352
00:17:49,331 --> 00:17:50,195
into our report.
353
00:17:50,275 --> 00:17:53,203
None of that was going to be
involved in our discussion and we
354
00:17:53,219 --> 00:17:54,587
could figure out another answer.
355
00:17:54,651 --> 00:17:57,467
We could just pack our bags
and get to the airport.
356
00:17:57,651 --> 00:18:05,075
Well, this was a big, big, big
client and that was unacceptable
357
00:18:05,155 --> 00:18:09,121
because, you know, more of the
same was not going to give them a
358
00:18:09,153 --> 00:18:10,049
different result.
359
00:18:10,217 --> 00:18:15,201
We swapped our presentation
going into the board and didn't know
360
00:18:15,233 --> 00:18:18,249
whether we'd be dismissed out
of hand.
361
00:18:18,337 --> 00:18:18,753
Right.
362
00:18:18,849 --> 00:18:21,049
Or taken apart or we were
going to have a big thing.
363
00:18:21,097 --> 00:18:24,713
We, we had this discussion
ahead of time and it turned out that
364
00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:29,977
we weren't the CXO was, he was
the one sent off.
365
00:18:30,081 --> 00:18:38,631
But wow, I really never wanted
to be in a situation like that.
366
00:18:38,743 --> 00:18:42,887
I certainly felt it was my
responsibility to have those conversations,
367
00:18:43,071 --> 00:18:47,871
but personally I just felt
much better having them one on one
368
00:18:47,943 --> 00:18:51,295
and trying to come to a
resolution with the individuals involved,
369
00:18:51,415 --> 00:18:55,263
not having to do it in such a
confrontational way.
370
00:18:55,439 --> 00:18:58,759
Yeah, and it's funny, it's a
cliche about our industry that if
371
00:18:58,767 --> 00:19:01,239
you going back to that, you
tell people at dinner parties, what
372
00:19:01,247 --> 00:19:01,527
do you do?
373
00:19:01,551 --> 00:19:02,755
You say, I'm a consultant.
374
00:19:03,205 --> 00:19:05,957
A fair amount of the
assumption might be, oh, so you go
375
00:19:05,981 --> 00:19:08,781
around factories and tell the
management who to fire.
376
00:19:08,973 --> 00:19:12,789
And there are consulting firms
that do that kind of turnaround work,
377
00:19:12,837 --> 00:19:16,077
but it's actually not the
majority of the work that our profession
378
00:19:16,101 --> 00:19:16,261
does.
379
00:19:16,293 --> 00:19:20,429
And I've, I thank Lord, the
Lord, I've never, I've been in close
380
00:19:20,477 --> 00:19:22,925
proximity to quite a few of
those situations, but I've never
381
00:19:22,965 --> 00:19:27,061
been the one to say, sir or
madam, your employment is at an end
382
00:19:27,093 --> 00:19:31,437
Now, I think that what's
difficult, as you say, are things
383
00:19:31,461 --> 00:19:33,557
that reflect uncertainty
rather than just effort.
384
00:19:33,661 --> 00:19:37,069
I'm going to rule out all the
working late under a deadline stories
385
00:19:37,117 --> 00:19:40,981
because pulling an online
isn't necessarily a difficult thing.
386
00:19:41,133 --> 00:19:45,549
Even though the post project
brain fade and my blood pressure
387
00:19:45,597 --> 00:19:48,541
results might tell a
temporarily different story.
388
00:19:48,693 --> 00:19:51,701
It's not intellectually or
personally a difficult thing.
389
00:19:51,733 --> 00:19:53,505
It's demanding, but it's not difficult.
390
00:19:54,005 --> 00:19:55,877
And I'm thinking of what's
been difficult.
391
00:19:55,981 --> 00:19:57,509
And two things come to mind.
392
00:19:57,677 --> 00:20:01,859
One is knowing some way in
advance that you're going to get
393
00:20:01,907 --> 00:20:04,715
extensive, deep and
potentially personal angry client
394
00:20:04,755 --> 00:20:07,867
feedback and just having to
watch it coming towards you.
395
00:20:07,891 --> 00:20:12,427
I remember once traveling a
day and a half and many time zones
396
00:20:12,491 --> 00:20:15,155
just to go see a client, just
to be yelled at for something that
397
00:20:15,195 --> 00:20:17,803
went wrong that was only 25%
my fault.
398
00:20:17,939 --> 00:20:21,011
Well, maybe 30% my fault.
399
00:20:21,203 --> 00:20:25,851
And all the way across, in the
car, on the airplane, in the taxi,
400
00:20:25,883 --> 00:20:28,779
across town, flicking through
my emails, I know this is coming
401
00:20:28,867 --> 00:20:30,051
and there's nothing I can do
about it.
402
00:20:30,083 --> 00:20:32,855
And I found that very difficult.
403
00:20:33,635 --> 00:20:37,147
The other thing that I've seen
in my life and I think in other people's
404
00:20:37,171 --> 00:20:41,331
lives is needing to be in two
places at once.
405
00:20:41,523 --> 00:20:45,371
Like as consultants, we do
things that we get enthusiastic and
406
00:20:45,403 --> 00:20:45,899
committed about.
407
00:20:45,947 --> 00:20:48,283
We feel really committed to a
client and their problem.
408
00:20:48,419 --> 00:20:51,283
We feel really committed to
other things, work things and personal
409
00:20:51,339 --> 00:20:51,935
things.
410
00:20:52,275 --> 00:20:56,491
Feeling that impossible need
to be in two places at once, feeling
411
00:20:56,603 --> 00:21:01,755
sincerely, 100% committed to
two things in parallel, but being
412
00:21:01,795 --> 00:21:05,915
unable to practically do both
at once is really tough in the work
413
00:21:05,955 --> 00:21:07,419
sphere and in the personal sphere.
414
00:21:07,507 --> 00:21:10,547
And I've seen lots of people
in our profession wrestle with it,
415
00:21:10,571 --> 00:21:14,975
and I think it comes under the
heading of genuinely difficult.
416
00:21:16,075 --> 00:21:16,819
Wow.
417
00:21:16,987 --> 00:21:19,835
Gosh, yeah, we're digging deep here.
418
00:21:19,955 --> 00:21:21,925
We're going to dig inside a little.
419
00:21:22,115 --> 00:21:24,929
Well, thank goodness that
every once in a while there's a question
420
00:21:24,977 --> 00:21:29,153
that's not quite that powerful
because I was falling right in there
421
00:21:29,209 --> 00:21:30,593
with you on that last one.
422
00:21:30,649 --> 00:21:33,617
Boy, I was thinking about all
those times I wish I could have a
423
00:21:33,641 --> 00:21:37,845
do over and a clone so I could
have been in both of those things.
424
00:21:43,145 --> 00:21:45,805
So, Mike, then here's our next question.
425
00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:51,507
Who do we know who is most
like a consultant without actually
426
00:21:51,651 --> 00:21:52,895
being one.
427
00:21:53,395 --> 00:21:55,307
So who's on your list here, Mike?
428
00:21:55,411 --> 00:21:59,555
Yeah, well, you know, I think
that the first people that come to
429
00:21:59,595 --> 00:22:04,115
mind are a handful of people
that I turn to routinely to help
430
00:22:04,155 --> 00:22:06,571
me take an action or make a decision.
431
00:22:06,643 --> 00:22:11,003
Something that we do big time
as consultants and especially the
432
00:22:11,019 --> 00:22:15,409
ones who don't necessarily
have deep expertise in the source
433
00:22:15,457 --> 00:22:21,161
of my problem or opportunity,
but who I find time in memoriam always
434
00:22:21,233 --> 00:22:23,529
manage to help me regardless.
435
00:22:23,697 --> 00:22:28,361
Maybe this is more process
consulting than content consulting,
436
00:22:28,393 --> 00:22:32,065
but there are people that I
go, wow, they just have this uncanny
437
00:22:32,105 --> 00:22:33,129
knack for doing that.
438
00:22:33,177 --> 00:22:35,313
And I think, boy, that's.
439
00:22:35,409 --> 00:22:39,129
Yeah, they may not have the
shingle consultant, but for me, oh,
440
00:22:39,297 --> 00:22:42,899
that's some of my consultants,
my personal consultants, if you will.
441
00:22:43,097 --> 00:22:45,395
Yeah, it's really great examples.
442
00:22:46,455 --> 00:22:50,343
In thinking about this
question, I too was going away from
443
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,463
the traditional definition of
expertise and knowing about content.
444
00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:57,679
The people I think of that I
know who are most like consultants
445
00:22:57,727 --> 00:23:00,463
without actually being one are
not people who've got expertise on
446
00:23:00,479 --> 00:23:01,431
their spreadsheets.
447
00:23:01,543 --> 00:23:07,635
I'm thinking of anyone who has
or uses influence without authority.
448
00:23:07,975 --> 00:23:11,071
Those are the people that I
see the most having the human quality
449
00:23:11,103 --> 00:23:11,975
of a consultant.
450
00:23:12,095 --> 00:23:16,995
That includes school teachers
and by the way, parents, bartenders,
451
00:23:17,455 --> 00:23:18,915
nightclub doormen.
452
00:23:19,655 --> 00:23:22,215
Anybody in our life who helps
to smooth things and make things
453
00:23:22,255 --> 00:23:24,719
happen without having the
authority to point the finger and
454
00:23:24,727 --> 00:23:25,919
go tell somebody what to do.
455
00:23:26,007 --> 00:23:31,191
Anybody who does that and does
it with humanity, I think is a consultant
456
00:23:31,343 --> 00:23:33,231
without actually realizing it.
457
00:23:33,423 --> 00:23:34,155
Nice.
458
00:23:41,455 --> 00:23:45,471
Well, one listener says, in my
last consulting firm there were quite
459
00:23:45,503 --> 00:23:48,727
a few people who were ex
clients and knew something about
460
00:23:48,751 --> 00:23:50,415
the client's business world.
461
00:23:50,575 --> 00:23:55,647
In my current firm, we all
seem to be long tenured consultants
462
00:23:55,791 --> 00:23:57,047
and not much else.
463
00:23:57,191 --> 00:23:59,875
Is that better or not?
464
00:24:00,455 --> 00:24:02,503
Mike, this is a really
fascinating one.
465
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:07,551
I've worked in and worked for
firms that had both of those profiles.
466
00:24:07,583 --> 00:24:08,921
You know, the super specialist.
467
00:24:08,953 --> 00:24:12,313
We are consultants and nothing
but versus the we have X industry
468
00:24:12,369 --> 00:24:15,017
and X clients, people in our
teams here.
469
00:24:15,201 --> 00:24:21,113
There are pros and cons, I
think, to being an ex client in a
470
00:24:21,129 --> 00:24:25,641
world of consultants, being a
gamekeeper turned poacher if you
471
00:24:25,673 --> 00:24:26,105
like.
472
00:24:26,225 --> 00:24:27,905
Now there are pros and cons.
473
00:24:27,985 --> 00:24:32,633
If there were only pros, if it
was an unvarnished advantage to be
474
00:24:32,649 --> 00:24:36,079
a former client, then there
would be loads more of them.
475
00:24:36,167 --> 00:24:39,599
There would be ex clients in
consulting firms around the world,
476
00:24:39,767 --> 00:24:43,479
sitting back, bossing the
newbie consultants around, delivering
477
00:24:43,527 --> 00:24:48,103
fantastic work that clients
love with ease for enormous paychecks
478
00:24:48,199 --> 00:24:49,671
while they swill martinis.
479
00:24:49,783 --> 00:24:54,007
I can, except in one or two
very rare situations.
480
00:24:54,111 --> 00:24:56,555
I can't think of many cases
where I've seen that.
481
00:24:56,975 --> 00:24:58,807
So let's talk about the pros
and cons.
482
00:24:58,911 --> 00:25:03,647
I think the pro the advantage
of being an ex client among consultants
483
00:25:03,711 --> 00:25:06,519
is there is understanding,
problem, context, right?
484
00:25:06,567 --> 00:25:11,063
If you understand the client's
world, if you can articulate their
485
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:13,759
business problems Articulate
those problems back to the client
486
00:25:13,887 --> 00:25:16,727
and articulate them clearly
back to the consulting colleagues
487
00:25:16,751 --> 00:25:19,431
in your team, then you're a
potential winner.
488
00:25:19,583 --> 00:25:22,955
We talk about this a lot with
our clients that we teach and coach.
489
00:25:23,535 --> 00:25:29,765
To me, this is maybe even more
important than having personal relationships
490
00:25:29,845 --> 00:25:30,749
on the client side.
491
00:25:30,797 --> 00:25:33,381
I've seen people get really
bent out of shape about whether they
492
00:25:33,413 --> 00:25:36,717
can or can't or should or
shouldn't exploit their personal
493
00:25:36,781 --> 00:25:38,701
relationships, for example, to
make sales.
494
00:25:38,853 --> 00:25:42,053
I've seen plenty of people be
successful at using what they know
495
00:25:42,069 --> 00:25:46,253
about the client world to show
that we understand the context for
496
00:25:46,269 --> 00:25:47,025
the problem.
497
00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:54,985
The downside of being a client
in a team of consultants is that,
498
00:25:55,065 --> 00:25:58,513
well, one of the things that
you're paid for as a consultant is
499
00:25:58,569 --> 00:26:00,545
perspective, your point of view.
500
00:26:00,665 --> 00:26:04,849
And it's hard to be respected
for your independent perspective
501
00:26:04,897 --> 00:26:08,049
if you always act like an
insider in front of your clients.
502
00:26:08,097 --> 00:26:11,513
If you're kind of one of the
client gang still, and we talked
503
00:26:11,529 --> 00:26:14,977
about this a little bit in our
confidence versus humility episode,
504
00:26:15,121 --> 00:26:19,297
sometimes we need as advisors
to stand on our authority a little
505
00:26:19,321 --> 00:26:20,823
bit to stand on our status.
506
00:26:20,969 --> 00:26:26,443
And that might not be easy if
you're not seen as bringing in the
507
00:26:26,499 --> 00:26:30,051
outside world of expertise
with you.
508
00:26:30,083 --> 00:26:33,379
And I've seen some people have
a really, really hard time as ex
509
00:26:33,427 --> 00:26:36,619
clients trying to find their
feet in the consulting profession
510
00:26:36,707 --> 00:26:38,255
if they weren't able to do that.
511
00:26:38,555 --> 00:26:40,387
Plus, Mike, there's one more.
512
00:26:40,451 --> 00:26:43,131
So the social consequence
here, there's another set of tribes
513
00:26:43,243 --> 00:26:44,875
to be insiders or outsiders of.
514
00:26:44,955 --> 00:26:47,285
That's the tribes of consulting.
515
00:26:47,445 --> 00:26:54,221
If you're always one of the
clients, whereas you're simultaneously
516
00:26:54,293 --> 00:26:56,885
not one of the gang of
consultants who your actual colleagues
517
00:26:56,925 --> 00:27:02,285
then being kind of an eternal
outsider like that also has its drawbacks.
518
00:27:02,325 --> 00:27:04,661
And again, I've seen one or
two people get a little bit stuck,
519
00:27:04,773 --> 00:27:08,013
never really managing to get
to be part of the social fabric of
520
00:27:08,029 --> 00:27:09,305
the practice as well.
521
00:27:09,685 --> 00:27:10,425
Nice.
522
00:27:16,655 --> 00:27:17,063
It.
523
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,967
All these great questions
about consultants and consulting,
524
00:27:21,031 --> 00:27:26,111
I think took our minds back to
a great Economist article from a
525
00:27:26,143 --> 00:27:27,887
few years back here.
526
00:27:27,991 --> 00:27:31,391
It's written by somebody who
appears to be having a great deal
527
00:27:31,423 --> 00:27:35,007
of fun with the way
consultants and clients view the
528
00:27:35,071 --> 00:27:35,863
profession.
529
00:27:35,999 --> 00:27:40,045
I think perhaps someone who's
written this with their tongue firmly
530
00:27:40,125 --> 00:27:41,225
in their cheek.
531
00:27:41,885 --> 00:27:42,781
Yes, indeed.
532
00:27:42,893 --> 00:27:43,661
Let's take a look.
533
00:27:43,733 --> 00:27:47,333
This is from the Bartleby
column, and if you've never read
534
00:27:47,349 --> 00:27:49,389
the Economist, then read it
for two reasons.
535
00:27:49,437 --> 00:27:51,949
First of all, the puns in the
headlines are excellent.
536
00:27:52,037 --> 00:27:54,501
And second of all, the
Bartleby column is pretty good.
537
00:27:54,613 --> 00:27:56,549
The rest of the stuff is super
good as well.
538
00:27:56,637 --> 00:27:58,157
But these are my two highlights.
539
00:27:58,301 --> 00:28:00,605
So this was in the Bartleby
column back in 2023.
540
00:28:00,645 --> 00:28:04,493
And this is a letter, a
fictional letter from a friend to
541
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:05,149
another.
542
00:28:05,317 --> 00:28:07,617
You'll get the context as I
start to read out the letter.
543
00:28:07,741 --> 00:28:11,657
Dear Robin, it begins, I was
delighted when you commissioned me
544
00:28:11,761 --> 00:28:15,553
to prepare this report for you
after our discussion at the club.
545
00:28:15,729 --> 00:28:20,793
As a newly appointed CEO at a
Fortune 500 company, a thrilling
546
00:28:20,889 --> 00:28:23,625
yet perilous adventure awaits you.
547
00:28:23,785 --> 00:28:28,161
I commend your wisdom in
choosing to hire a management consultant
548
00:28:28,313 --> 00:28:30,525
to guide you on your way.
549
00:28:30,945 --> 00:28:33,579
And here's the rest of his
introductory paragraph.
550
00:28:33,777 --> 00:28:37,359
I naturally would have been
ideally positioned given my many
551
00:28:37,407 --> 00:28:40,847
years of experience, but alas,
the time comes in every man's life
552
00:28:40,871 --> 00:28:45,595
when he must hang up his hat
and retire to his home in the Bahamas.
553
00:28:45,895 --> 00:28:48,079
By the way, Mike, I love the
perspective here.
554
00:28:48,167 --> 00:28:51,935
And of course it's funny that
all retirement consultants have retirement
555
00:28:52,015 --> 00:28:55,279
villas in the Bahamas and hang
out as a gentleman's club.
556
00:28:55,327 --> 00:28:58,495
But anyway, we'll take that as
part of the funny setup here.
557
00:28:58,615 --> 00:29:02,959
Anyway, goes on Robin's
advisor here as my swan song.
558
00:29:03,007 --> 00:29:06,983
I have thrown together, as
requested, a few thoughts on how
559
00:29:06,999 --> 00:29:08,727
to handle my kind.
560
00:29:08,791 --> 00:29:10,831
He means how to handle
management consultants.
561
00:29:10,943 --> 00:29:14,943
I hope you find the attached
120 page PowerPoint presentation
562
00:29:14,999 --> 00:29:15,675
useful.
563
00:29:16,015 --> 00:29:19,035
Below you will find a brief summary.
564
00:29:19,575 --> 00:29:21,795
So Mike, let's go through this
summary here.
565
00:29:22,935 --> 00:29:26,423
I think in the context as
you've read the first paragraph,
566
00:29:26,479 --> 00:29:30,611
we now have a number of
paragraphs that are trying to make
567
00:29:30,723 --> 00:29:32,067
his main point.
568
00:29:32,171 --> 00:29:34,435
Beware as you look at consultants.
569
00:29:34,515 --> 00:29:37,867
So the first main one is be
ready for the bait and switch.
570
00:29:37,931 --> 00:29:41,571
And he's of course pointing
out that those great veterans that
571
00:29:41,603 --> 00:29:44,891
turned up to sell the business
are not going to be the ones that
572
00:29:44,923 --> 00:29:47,507
are back in to actually
perform the business.
573
00:29:47,611 --> 00:29:51,395
Those he says will be done by
clever but pimply 20 somethings armed
574
00:29:51,435 --> 00:29:55,409
with 2 by 2 matrix frameworks
recycled from client to client.
575
00:29:55,547 --> 00:29:59,365
Not to worry, there'll be long
hours, they're well taken care of
576
00:29:59,405 --> 00:30:01,445
and they live this lavish lifestyle.
577
00:30:01,565 --> 00:30:05,925
And be careful because every
once in a while those gray haired
578
00:30:05,965 --> 00:30:07,661
senior partners going to be
back in.
579
00:30:07,693 --> 00:30:10,637
So you got to be aware of both
the bait and the switch.
580
00:30:10,781 --> 00:30:11,493
Wow.
581
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:12,693
You know what?
582
00:30:12,869 --> 00:30:14,597
It's funny because it's true.
583
00:30:14,741 --> 00:30:16,181
It's funny because it's true.
584
00:30:16,293 --> 00:30:19,325
Having myself been the gray
haired eminence flitting in and flitting
585
00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:19,565
out.
586
00:30:19,605 --> 00:30:20,877
Yeah, touche.
587
00:30:20,941 --> 00:30:22,517
I feel a bit seen by this one.
588
00:30:22,661 --> 00:30:24,865
Okay, the next piece of advice.
589
00:30:25,485 --> 00:30:26,453
Watch out he says.
590
00:30:26,509 --> 00:30:29,625
Watch out for land and expand.
591
00:30:30,085 --> 00:30:32,957
Consultants are masters of the
clandestine sale.
592
00:30:32,981 --> 00:30:36,389
And he talks about consultants
expanding their tentacles and spreading
593
00:30:36,437 --> 00:30:37,545
throughout the firm.
594
00:30:38,085 --> 00:30:41,245
Blink and they will be doing
all these other pieces of work, cost
595
00:30:41,285 --> 00:30:42,605
cutting, fixing your it.
596
00:30:42,765 --> 00:30:44,557
What's the phrase you and I
have used, Mike?
597
00:30:44,661 --> 00:30:48,277
Go out there to the client,
find some budget and bring it home
598
00:30:48,301 --> 00:30:49,177
to the team.
599
00:30:49,341 --> 00:30:51,337
Right, right, exactly.
600
00:30:51,481 --> 00:30:54,377
But land and expand is a
phrase I've heard consultants use
601
00:30:54,401 --> 00:30:54,881
a lot.
602
00:30:54,993 --> 00:30:56,881
I think he's got a fair point here.
603
00:30:57,033 --> 00:31:00,977
Now, to be momentarily only a
tiny bit serious.
604
00:31:01,121 --> 00:31:04,689
Land and expand is fine if
you're actually helpful, if you're
605
00:31:04,857 --> 00:31:07,321
actually doing something
valuable, like doing more valuable
606
00:31:07,393 --> 00:31:10,537
work for a valued client is
what our careers are made of.
607
00:31:10,601 --> 00:31:13,569
When things go well, that's
what we all get rewarded for.
608
00:31:13,697 --> 00:31:17,415
But do you know what it must
look to the client like sometimes
609
00:31:17,495 --> 00:31:21,015
the monster lands and as the
article says here, the tentacles
610
00:31:21,175 --> 00:31:23,755
expand into every corner of
the business.
611
00:31:24,255 --> 00:31:26,271
So we've got be ready for bait
and switch.
612
00:31:26,383 --> 00:31:28,239
We've got watch out for land
and expand.
613
00:31:28,287 --> 00:31:31,595
What's the next piece of
advice for dealing with consultants?
614
00:31:31,895 --> 00:31:36,247
It's headed Ian questioned
everything, but it's really talking
615
00:31:36,271 --> 00:31:39,423
about that if you have big
recommendations, they demand big
616
00:31:39,479 --> 00:31:39,903
numbers.
617
00:31:39,959 --> 00:31:44,103
And so he said, you know,
divide everything at least by 2.
618
00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:45,863
Never trust a benchmark.
619
00:31:45,919 --> 00:31:47,311
I made most of mine up.
620
00:31:47,343 --> 00:31:51,239
We remember Marty in a prior
episode and where these numbers come
621
00:31:51,247 --> 00:31:51,439
from.
622
00:31:51,487 --> 00:31:52,079
Yeah, exactly.
623
00:31:52,127 --> 00:31:53,615
Yeah, exactly.
624
00:31:53,775 --> 00:31:57,551
And he says pay particular
attention to those tiny little notes
625
00:31:57,583 --> 00:31:59,647
at the bottom of the charts or
in the appendix.
626
00:31:59,711 --> 00:32:02,183
That's where the dirty secrets
are buried here.
627
00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:04,943
And he said, particularly if
you're going to question everything,
628
00:32:05,079 --> 00:32:11,219
if any of the folks who report
to you have brought you reports from
629
00:32:11,267 --> 00:32:14,307
consultants that they hired
that end in anything talking about
630
00:32:14,331 --> 00:32:17,419
a bigger budget for them,
doubly question those.
631
00:32:17,587 --> 00:32:20,059
Yeah, I think that's advice.
632
00:32:20,107 --> 00:32:22,547
If somebody once bitten, twice
shy, I think that's fair.
633
00:32:22,611 --> 00:32:24,371
I think that's very fair.
634
00:32:24,563 --> 00:32:27,523
Now of course I think it to
myself that's all those other consultants,
635
00:32:27,579 --> 00:32:29,235
right, doing self serving stuff.
636
00:32:29,275 --> 00:32:32,403
But you can see where the
temptation comes from, right?
637
00:32:32,459 --> 00:32:35,283
So besides questioning
everything, what other advice have
638
00:32:35,299 --> 00:32:37,731
we got for a client buying
from consultants for the first time?
639
00:32:37,763 --> 00:32:40,975
He says take none of the blame.
640
00:32:41,135 --> 00:32:44,319
You as a newly minted CEO are
brimming with ideas.
641
00:32:44,447 --> 00:32:45,679
Many of them are terrible.
642
00:32:45,767 --> 00:32:46,591
Yeah, word.
643
00:32:46,623 --> 00:32:49,271
I've met lots of CXOs who have
terrible ideas.
644
00:32:49,383 --> 00:32:51,543
They're second only to the
terrible ideas brought to them by
645
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:52,515
their consultants.
646
00:32:53,695 --> 00:32:56,495
Among the valuable services
offered by management consultants
647
00:32:56,535 --> 00:32:59,715
says the article is the human shield.
648
00:33:01,215 --> 00:33:05,353
Your consultants may from time
to time stumble On a good idea, by
649
00:33:05,369 --> 00:33:06,289
all means, use them.
650
00:33:06,377 --> 00:33:08,725
But remember you thought of it first.
651
00:33:10,265 --> 00:33:14,281
Yeah, I'd like to say as a
consultant, in my defense, I've never
652
00:33:14,313 --> 00:33:16,921
been played that way, at least
not as far as I know.
653
00:33:17,113 --> 00:33:20,521
But I've been in the
profession for more than a couple
654
00:33:20,553 --> 00:33:21,241
of decades now.
655
00:33:21,273 --> 00:33:24,577
I think it's very unlikely
that I've never been had by a client
656
00:33:24,721 --> 00:33:28,441
that wanted to burnish their
idea with my team's reputation.
657
00:33:28,553 --> 00:33:30,405
We will have to see about that.
658
00:33:31,115 --> 00:33:34,411
So taking none of the blame
sounds like a good recipe for marriage
659
00:33:34,443 --> 00:33:35,275
as well, Mike.
660
00:33:35,435 --> 00:33:35,843
Yeah.
661
00:33:35,899 --> 00:33:38,571
And then there was an
interesting one here.
662
00:33:38,683 --> 00:33:42,635
It ends with experiment with polygamy.
663
00:33:42,795 --> 00:33:46,339
He said, there's going to be a
lot of talk of trying to woo you
664
00:33:46,387 --> 00:33:51,819
with this talk of a long term
partnership, a monogamy, let us serve
665
00:33:51,867 --> 00:33:52,859
all your needs.
666
00:33:53,027 --> 00:33:56,099
And he said, consultants
fidelity is not one of their strong
667
00:33:56,147 --> 00:33:56,483
suits.
668
00:33:56,539 --> 00:33:59,427
They're probably already
working with all your competitors
669
00:33:59,531 --> 00:34:02,955
and they have the very
thinnest of Chinese walls in between
670
00:34:03,035 --> 00:34:03,515
them.
671
00:34:03,635 --> 00:34:07,915
So take a page out of their
book, hire their rivals, sit them
672
00:34:07,955 --> 00:34:12,643
in adjacent offices next to
each other, because that will, you
673
00:34:12,659 --> 00:34:17,419
know, really entice their
spirit of cooperation and competition.
674
00:34:17,467 --> 00:34:21,091
Cooperation with you and
competition between the two rivals
675
00:34:21,123 --> 00:34:25,646
here as they watch these guys
walking the halls of your business.
676
00:34:25,790 --> 00:34:30,230
And these guys and gals are
just saying, okay, we've got to really
677
00:34:30,302 --> 00:34:30,990
perform here.
678
00:34:31,062 --> 00:34:34,754
Essentially throw them all in
and watch them tussle.
679
00:34:35,094 --> 00:34:37,958
Having been in the room with
other consulting firms around the
680
00:34:37,966 --> 00:34:40,526
same table, and we were all
tussling, I remember the feeling
681
00:34:40,550 --> 00:34:42,926
of my own butt cheeks being
quite clenched at the very beginning
682
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:45,990
of that conversation and then
realizing, actually, this is no problem.
683
00:34:46,102 --> 00:34:48,150
This is no problem if we know
our stuff.
684
00:34:48,342 --> 00:34:50,726
It was clearly a test of.
685
00:34:50,870 --> 00:34:53,646
Test of bravado, though, and a
test of whether you know your stuff.
686
00:34:53,710 --> 00:34:54,750
So it's good advice.
687
00:34:54,822 --> 00:34:56,638
Experiment with a couple of
different advisors.
688
00:34:56,766 --> 00:34:57,662
Why not?
689
00:34:57,838 --> 00:35:00,174
Mike, the author, wraps up
this article, which has been really
690
00:35:00,214 --> 00:35:00,406
funny.
691
00:35:00,430 --> 00:35:01,246
I've enjoyed it.
692
00:35:01,350 --> 00:35:02,006
Wraps up with this.
693
00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:03,622
He says, look back on my career.
694
00:35:03,718 --> 00:35:06,462
I am not too proud to admit
that I've occasionally fleeced the
695
00:35:06,478 --> 00:35:10,190
old client, but I maintain my
profession is a noble one.
696
00:35:10,342 --> 00:35:13,110
I don't think any of us, Mike,
would ever say out loud that we fleeced
697
00:35:13,182 --> 00:35:13,470
anybody.
698
00:35:13,502 --> 00:35:14,526
At least I hope not.
699
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:18,242
But I'm there with the claim
that our profession is a noble one.
700
00:35:18,438 --> 00:35:22,507
One final thought, he says, to
conclude, there is never a problem
701
00:35:22,651 --> 00:35:25,171
too big or small for a consultant.
702
00:35:25,363 --> 00:35:27,771
That I can confirm from experience.
703
00:35:27,963 --> 00:35:32,055
Your bill, including expenses,
is attached.
704
00:35:32,555 --> 00:35:33,459
Good luck.
705
00:35:33,627 --> 00:35:34,535
Very good.
706
00:35:34,995 --> 00:35:37,619
Somebody with a certain amount
of inside knowledge there, I think.
707
00:35:37,747 --> 00:35:39,603
And this is humor, not analysis.
708
00:35:39,659 --> 00:35:39,875
Right.
709
00:35:39,915 --> 00:35:41,575
But we still feel a little bit seen.
710
00:35:42,315 --> 00:35:42,787
Yeah.
711
00:35:42,851 --> 00:35:45,797
It's funny because talking
about feeling a little bit seen,
712
00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:50,505
I think you have to say that
it's as consultants we joke about
713
00:35:50,545 --> 00:35:54,297
this with each other,
believing that only another consultant
714
00:35:54,401 --> 00:35:57,153
really can penetrate the
mystique of this profession and see
715
00:35:57,169 --> 00:36:00,073
us for what we are sometimes
or who we could be.
716
00:36:00,169 --> 00:36:07,177
But I do think that many of
our clients, our spouses, our partners
717
00:36:07,361 --> 00:36:11,337
have an even clearer view that
we do ourselves of what we do and
718
00:36:11,361 --> 00:36:12,089
how we come off.
719
00:36:12,137 --> 00:36:15,593
We should probably talk to
them about it from time to time.
720
00:36:15,769 --> 00:36:17,425
I think that's very good advice.
721
00:36:17,465 --> 00:36:20,257
A little bit of self
awareness, Mike, is called for in
722
00:36:20,281 --> 00:36:21,145
our profession.
723
00:36:21,265 --> 00:36:24,129
And meanwhile, take a look at
the Economist.
724
00:36:24,217 --> 00:36:24,657
It's great.
725
00:36:24,681 --> 00:36:26,525
And the Bartleby column's
funny, too.
726
00:36:27,065 --> 00:36:29,321
Mike, we've had some really,
really great questions.
727
00:36:29,353 --> 00:36:32,065
We've dug into some really
interesting places as we've explored
728
00:36:32,105 --> 00:36:32,849
our answers.
729
00:36:32,977 --> 00:36:35,433
I want to say thank you to
everybody for the questions.
730
00:36:35,569 --> 00:36:39,089
We're still interested in
what's on your mind.
731
00:36:39,137 --> 00:36:40,897
We'd love to hear more from you.
732
00:36:41,001 --> 00:36:43,387
All of our contact details are
there in the show notes.
733
00:36:43,521 --> 00:36:44,655
Please tell us what's on your mind.
734
00:36:44,695 --> 00:36:49,247
We're going to come back to
listener Q and A and we'd love to
735
00:36:49,271 --> 00:36:50,595
keep this dialogue going.
736
00:36:50,975 --> 00:36:52,831
Thanks so much for listening.
737
00:36:53,023 --> 00:36:55,015
Until next time on the Luminaries.