Internal Advisor: Listener Q&A

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Foreign.
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Welcome back, Luminaries.
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As always, you have chosen wisely.
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We're so glad you're with us now.
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In our main episode, you heard
Mike and me talking about the way
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that consulting careers looked
for people of my generation, of Generation
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X.
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I was the in house laboratory animal.
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For that particular episode in
the Luminaries episode that goes
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along with it, we wanted to
give you our take on some of those
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big ideas, the big ideas that
were around in consulting in the
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90s and a little before so
that you can decide for yourself
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what role could or should they
still play in the theory and practice
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of Consulting in 2025.
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And what can you learn about
your Gen X colleagues and their quirks
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by exploring these ideas?
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That's our plan anyway.
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What do you think, Mike?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Maybe that'll mean you'll add
a couple of things to your reading
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pile, or maybe that'll mean
you'll remember how your own thinking
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and reading got you to where
you are today.
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And later, we're also going to
discuss the fifth discipline and
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built to last text that many
Gen X consultants have had on their
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bookshelves or in their big
heavy briefcases.
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Don't I remember carrying all
this stuff on and somebody saying,
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oh my God, what do you have in
your luggage?
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I go, it's my library to be.
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Read, so those to come later.
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First, though, we've got
unfinished business from our Boomer
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episode.
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We tantalized you with the
notion of reviewing one of the classic
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works of 1980s consulting and
business thinking, which was the
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book In Search of Excellence
by Peters and Waterman.
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Mike, we're looking to you,
we're counting on you to tell us
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what we need to know about
this book and which famous consulting
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firm are we going to find
lurking behind the title?
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This is great because, boy,
this does bring back the memories
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pretty strongly.
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Let me say that for me, of
course, the famous consulting firm
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is always McKinsey.
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And we're really going back, I
think, to McKinsey 7S model.
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Now, anybody who is a boomer
consultant, if you don't know McKinsey's
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7S model variants of it,
because I think this was the mother
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of so many things.
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For those of you who don't
recall, seven S's were structure,
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strategy, systems, style of
management skills, which was the
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S word that actually stood for
corporate strengths, staff, meaning
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people and shared values.
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And this star, like
Constellation, explained all things
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about making a great firm and
making a firm great.
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Well, interestingly, we don't
know this because we don't present
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this at the front of In Search
of Excellence.
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What we get from In Search of
Excellence is saying we've examined
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43 of Fortune 500's top
performing companies.
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Actually these were 62 are the
best performing McKinsey companies
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because we've got data on them
and we're going to weed them out.
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Some of them we think are a
little bit weaker even though they've
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got some good results, like
General Electric failed to make the
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list.
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Ah, here we see a little bit
of a transition.
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And Peters when interviewed
said one of his kind of drivers personally
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for carrying this out was to
prove that certain established methods,
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particularly some of the
philosophies and practice like those
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used by Xerox and advocated by
Peter Drucker and Robert McNamara.
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Okay, now boomers, I know
Drucker and boy, everybody from my
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generation knows McNamara.
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This is Google him.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And some of these quotes, the
knowns and the unknown knowns and
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the this comes later, McNamara.
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There were no unknown unknowns.
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This was all the whiz kids of
Kennedy's cabinet back in the day.
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But Peter says if you start
with Taylorism even earlier in management
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thinking, add a layer of
Druckerism and a dose of McNamara
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ISM and by the late 1970s you
had all the great American corporations
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were being run by bean counters.
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And let me tell you that that
didn't just end in the 70s.
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I remember coming to IBM's
turnaround going, wow, finance, this
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is it.
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This is the shadow, this is
the one ring to rule them all.
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So do you think Peters and
Waterman were about to tell us there's
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a whole new different set of
beans that we should count or were
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they trying to change our view
of the world completely?
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I think they were, yet I think
they were.
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And I think they were trying
to take this 7S model essentially
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and say we're going to prove
that's where it is.
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It's not in counting the
beans, it's in paying attention to
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this.
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So they put this, their
methodology together and they looked
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over, they even said in the
book structure, strategy, people,
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management style, systems,
procedures, guiding concepts, shared
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values, corporate strength and
skills along with financial performance
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to select excellent companies.
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So it's not just financial
performance we have to get behind
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these.
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They took these 43 companies
that make the cut and they said what
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are the things that they had
in common?
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And I suspect they weren't
using factor analysis to get to the
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answer.
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Yeah, I think they were just
pulling these factors out of whatever
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warm and special place they
keep their factors in Right.
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We might have referred to it
in an earlier episode in a cut from
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a great consulting show here.
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Marty.
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Marty, we're thinking about
you, babe.
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So here are the eight things.
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So we have this setup for a
very rigorous empirical theory based
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study.
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And what we come out with is
these eight things.
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One, a bias for action rather
than overanalyzing situations.
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Two, a customer first focus in
all decisions.
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Okay, this is great management
wisdom we've seen in so many places
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of business.
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The customer is always right.
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Rule number one.
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Rule number two, if in doubt,
read rule number one.
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Okay, maybe this started here.
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Maybe we knew this before this
ongoing innovation with new products,
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services and processes through
autonomy and entrepreneurship.
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Now that's a little
interesting compared to some of that
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Drucker and some of that
productivity through well trained,
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rewarded and empowered
frontline employees.
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Okay, hands on value driven leadership.
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Ah, okay, I'm starting to
twitch a little bit here.
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Would anybody ever argue for
leadership that was not hands on
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and was not value driven?
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Never mind, I'll shut up.
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Talk about controversial
things that people might take issue
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with.
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Number six, sticking to the
knitting and avoiding distractions
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from the key business.
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Seven, avoiding top heavy
executive ranks and organizational
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bureaucracy.
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Okay, and then eight.
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And now I'm going to have a
hard time lampooning this a little
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bit because it sounds like the
first three episodes of our podcast.
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Simultaneous loose, tight
properties in which firm targets
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are set, but individual
discretion is allowed to attain them.
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Well, there you go.
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Oh, spoiler.
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I don't know where we're going
to get to in our evaluation in a
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minute, but for exactly that
reason, Mike, I think that's actually
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my favorite one because it's
like a dichotomy.
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Like, it's not obvious how,
but it does sound quite insightful.
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If you're a little loose, but
also carefully a little tight, that
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seems to be an attribute.
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Nobody says that getting to
the top tier of the top dozen of
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the McKinsey clients of the
world has to be easy.
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It has to have a paradox.
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And I think it's fine.
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I quite like that better.
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Better than sticking to the
knitting, which just sounds.
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Sounds like apple pie actually
is what it's.
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It's apple pie.
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And it also says, hey, we got
one thing that this firm does and
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never distract from it.
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We're going to continue to
make the best buggies that anybody
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can hook their horse to.
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Oh, wait, maybe that wasn't.
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But I think you're absolutely
right, Ian.
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And this was, I think eight.
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One that was starting to get
to something that was good.
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Ah.
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And it was a brand new
invention, was it?
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Or was it Stephen Covey coming
back to clean and green.
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Now, my son, you figure out
how to weed the garden.
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Clean and green.
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That's what you're going for.
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Oh, okay.
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So, Mike, what were you
thinking and feeling when you got
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back into this?
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You know, I've talked about
this book many times.
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You read it more than once,
I'm sure.
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Flipping through it again in
2025, what kind of excitement or
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energy did it bring back to
that old Boomer spirit?
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It's funny, Ian.
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I call to mind how many times
did I stand in front of a client
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and discuss ready, fire, aim.
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That we're not going to overanalyze.
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We're going to go out there
and try things and customer first.
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Absolutely.
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There were some firms that had
gotten pretty walled off from customers,
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yet there were things that resonated.
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And at the same time, I had a
little bit of that feeling going
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back through it, going, this
sounds great, but there's so much
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storytelling.
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We said one minute, manager.
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Great, because it's a fable.
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Yeah, this was a fable, or
fable, like Tortoise and Hare kind
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of things, but told as if it
was truth down from the mountain,
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because these excellent
companies do it.
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And that's the proof.
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The proof of the pudding
wasn't in the eating.
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The proof of the pudding was
they ate that pudding.
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And look at that.
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Sounds like great pudding.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It must be great pudding.
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It is great pudding.
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Period.
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End of paragraph.
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I don't think that's the last
time in this episode, Mike.
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We're going to discover in one
of our favorite books here some.
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Some unproven pudding.
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But let's.
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Let's pause for a second.
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So we had the McKinsey 7S framework.
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We had the eight values or
attributes of these excellent companies.
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It was certainly a big deal.
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Everybody got super excited
about this.
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Yes, you can see that there
are some how tos that are raised
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by questions like innovation.
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How do we do that?
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And the answer was the 90s and
the noughties spawned a literature
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of how to do innovation.
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We did all kind of love,
though, a good framework back in
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those days.
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It seemed like we really
depended on it.
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And I don't think we've weaned
ourselves off the idea of frameworks,
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have we really?
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And maybe we'll talk a little
bit more about that.
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Why frameworks are really
helpful, why maps are really helpful,
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even if the map is not the territory.
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Mike, that was a great summary
of Peterson Waterman in Search of
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Excellence.
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Let's make the jump in related
territory, but forward in time from
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the boomer generation to
Generation X and we get another piece
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of work about studying
visionary companies that had been
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prosperous and trying to
discern why.
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Which one are we talking about here?
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This is great because this is
built to last.
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1994.
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Now we're up to Jim Collins,
Jerry Porras.
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And now we have what's almost
to your point again, a direct response
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to In Search of Excellence.
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To say, here's real excellence
today, given all the things that
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we've learned and that we can.
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We can click forward here
because we're better consultants,
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we're better researchers, we
can give you better, more grounded
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advice that is really much
more empirical, if you will, based
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on a different methodology here.
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And that sounds really good here.
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I'm thinking, I like that.
245
00:12:27,332 --> 00:12:28,924
I like that idea.
246
00:12:29,052 --> 00:12:30,540
So let's find out.
247
00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:35,532
When you do it better and you
do it differently, what does the
248
00:12:35,556 --> 00:12:36,940
output sound like?
249
00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:37,852
And I'm ready.
250
00:12:37,916 --> 00:12:39,148
I'm ready for that.
251
00:12:39,284 --> 00:12:40,924
Here's what we get.
252
00:12:41,092 --> 00:12:44,972
One, we take it from eight to
four, which is easier.
253
00:12:45,116 --> 00:12:45,660
That's it.
254
00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:48,172
Because the truth is never
eight things.
255
00:12:48,276 --> 00:12:50,172
It's actually three things.
256
00:12:50,356 --> 00:12:52,318
No more than seven things, but.
257
00:12:52,444 --> 00:12:57,338
So eight we knew was a problem
to begin with first, ah, about a
258
00:12:57,394 --> 00:12:59,150
core ideology.
259
00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:03,390
And not just having a core ideology.
260
00:13:04,930 --> 00:13:06,954
But it's not just stick to
your knitting.
261
00:13:07,082 --> 00:13:11,498
It's maintaining unchanging
core values and purpose.
262
00:13:11,594 --> 00:13:14,842
For example, they talked about
Hewlett Packard's commitment to technical
263
00:13:14,906 --> 00:13:21,036
contribution while constantly
pushing for change and improvement
264
00:13:21,218 --> 00:13:23,180
in everything else.
265
00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,768
And you mentioned on number
eight, in Search of Excellence again,
266
00:13:27,904 --> 00:13:33,480
they even stopped to point out
this is the genius of the end, A
267
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:39,608
N D in capital letters, to be
both idealistic and pragmatic.
268
00:13:39,784 --> 00:13:44,504
And actually, I think that
probably, if not all great wisdom,
269
00:13:44,552 --> 00:13:48,514
because I've got to be a
little thing much of great wisdom,
270
00:13:48,562 --> 00:13:52,130
perhaps most of great wisdom,
is a little bit of a paradox.
271
00:13:52,210 --> 00:13:55,570
So here is a little bit of
this thing, like we said in our first
272
00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:57,794
episodes on Great Consultants here.
273
00:13:57,882 --> 00:14:01,010
So it wasn't just that they
were clearing the decks and being
274
00:14:01,050 --> 00:14:03,458
even more manly about getting
empirical data.
275
00:14:03,594 --> 00:14:06,482
They were trying to examine
some of the nuance of what it was
276
00:14:06,506 --> 00:14:07,778
like to be successful.
277
00:14:07,954 --> 00:14:09,090
They are credit for that.
278
00:14:09,130 --> 00:14:10,242
Yeah, they are, they are.
279
00:14:10,266 --> 00:14:12,322
And we'll come to their
methodology in a minute.
280
00:14:12,386 --> 00:14:16,814
Because I was torn a little
bit in a rereading about the promise
281
00:14:16,862 --> 00:14:19,646
of the methodology and the
results, because what I expected
282
00:14:19,718 --> 00:14:23,822
to see was a little bit, just
perhaps a little bit more, but it's
283
00:14:23,886 --> 00:14:24,890
way up High.
284
00:14:25,190 --> 00:14:29,678
So what we get, number two, is
focus on being clock builders and
285
00:14:29,734 --> 00:14:31,250
not time tellers.
286
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:35,886
So I'm thinking, what equation
does that come out of?
287
00:14:35,958 --> 00:14:40,430
But it's an interesting point,
the point they're making here.
288
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:43,854
And I guess part of this was
marketing and selling.
289
00:14:43,902 --> 00:14:47,284
And for consultants, we
couldn't just say just the facts,
290
00:14:47,332 --> 00:14:51,396
ma'am, but it was this idea
that says rather than succeeding
291
00:14:51,428 --> 00:14:55,844
through one great idea or
charismatic leader or the two that
292
00:14:55,852 --> 00:15:00,244
were joined together, that
these companies built organizational
293
00:15:00,292 --> 00:15:03,348
capabilities that transcended
any individual.
294
00:15:03,524 --> 00:15:05,812
So the difference between
somebody who could tell them the
295
00:15:05,836 --> 00:15:09,396
time at the moment or sell
them back the time at the moment
296
00:15:09,508 --> 00:15:14,600
versus teaching them to build
a clock or creating long lasting
297
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:15,500
capability.
298
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,408
This sounds like the old joke,
give someone a fish, they'll eat
299
00:15:18,424 --> 00:15:19,032
for a day.
300
00:15:19,136 --> 00:15:21,704
Teach someone how to fish and
they'll eat for a month.
301
00:15:21,872 --> 00:15:23,880
Show them how to use the
Internet and they won't bother you
302
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:24,820
for years.
303
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,360
Oh, I thought you were going
to go back to the consultants who
304
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,752
give a man a fish and boom,
you get a good job.
305
00:15:31,856 --> 00:15:36,664
Teach that client how to fish
and she'll never hire you again.
306
00:15:36,752 --> 00:15:37,380
Right.
307
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,952
All your bookings for next
quarter are out the window, but I
308
00:15:40,976 --> 00:15:41,896
like that even better.
309
00:15:41,968 --> 00:15:46,964
The Internet and the Internet
and Never Bother your Again Maybe
310
00:15:47,092 --> 00:15:49,716
fits well as an intro to their
third point.
311
00:15:49,868 --> 00:15:51,028
What's that then?
312
00:15:51,164 --> 00:15:54,372
What else have we got to learn
from Built to Last here?
313
00:15:54,476 --> 00:15:58,772
After all that methodological
rigor, One of the keys of these firms
314
00:15:58,836 --> 00:16:03,972
that survived over decades,
not just now, is they all have big,
315
00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:07,160
hairy, audacious goals.
316
00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:12,704
So some of you from this
generation might remember Bhagsar.
317
00:16:12,782 --> 00:16:13,356
Right?
318
00:16:13,508 --> 00:16:17,612
Clear, compelling goals that
unite and stimulate organizations.
319
00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:23,212
Not just strategic objectives,
but bold missions that capture people's
320
00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:25,148
imagination and energy.
321
00:16:25,284 --> 00:16:25,980
That sounds great.
322
00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:27,160
I'd like some of that.
323
00:16:27,460 --> 00:16:28,700
Yeah, I'd like some of that.
324
00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:32,892
And then again, I worry
sometimes because I remember some
325
00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:36,844
clients that said, oh, we just
need a moonshot, we gotta come up
326
00:16:36,852 --> 00:16:39,682
with a moonshot that will
solve all our problems, then the
327
00:16:39,706 --> 00:16:41,390
buses will run on time.
328
00:16:42,250 --> 00:16:43,230
Maybe not.
329
00:16:45,130 --> 00:16:46,754
So big, hairy, audacious goals.
330
00:16:46,802 --> 00:16:47,794
And then there must be a fourth.
331
00:16:47,842 --> 00:16:49,138
You said there was a list of
four here.
332
00:16:49,194 --> 00:16:50,114
There was, yeah.
333
00:16:50,162 --> 00:16:55,314
The fourth one is to create a
culture, a corporate culture through
334
00:16:55,402 --> 00:16:56,850
careful selection.
335
00:16:57,010 --> 00:17:03,938
So indoctrination, almost a
cult like devotion to the company's
336
00:17:04,034 --> 00:17:10,828
ideology, but doing it in a
way that allows for significant individual
337
00:17:10,924 --> 00:17:16,876
autonomy in how people express
and pursue that ideology.
338
00:17:17,068 --> 00:17:18,572
So they've done a nice job.
339
00:17:18,596 --> 00:17:19,484
I've got to say, I.
340
00:17:19,572 --> 00:17:24,124
I can get behind more of those
four than I can get behind many of
341
00:17:24,132 --> 00:17:25,468
the eight of Peters and Watermen.
342
00:17:25,484 --> 00:17:27,036
With the perspective that I
have today.
343
00:17:27,188 --> 00:17:31,708
You can certainly see though,
how in Gen Xers and Boomers were
344
00:17:31,764 --> 00:17:35,550
loyalists to ideas and to
institutions, much more than our
345
00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:37,198
successor generations were.
346
00:17:37,334 --> 00:17:40,622
So you can see that the idea
of establishing a cult is pretty
347
00:17:40,686 --> 00:17:42,890
close to what some of us were
trying to aim for.
348
00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:46,254
Talk us through the comparison
though, Mike.
349
00:17:46,302 --> 00:17:50,862
How was Built to Last
different relative to its precursor,
350
00:17:50,926 --> 00:17:52,366
In Search of Excellence?
351
00:17:52,558 --> 00:17:55,310
Collins and Porters went to
great lengths to point this out.
352
00:17:55,350 --> 00:17:58,174
They said, look, we have a
very different time horizon.
353
00:17:58,222 --> 00:18:01,912
We're looking at companies
that were excellent, not at the moment
354
00:18:01,976 --> 00:18:05,912
like they did In Search of
Excellence, but that had prospered
355
00:18:05,976 --> 00:18:09,320
over many decades, some for
nearly a century.
356
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,328
So they said, ah, that flash
in the pan that we had with In Search
357
00:18:12,344 --> 00:18:13,192
of Excellence.
358
00:18:13,336 --> 00:18:16,360
Think Atari, think Wang.
359
00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,000
Yeah.
360
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:17,432
Whoa.
361
00:18:17,496 --> 00:18:18,344
Excellent companies.
362
00:18:18,432 --> 00:18:18,968
I don't know.
363
00:18:19,024 --> 00:18:20,936
Didn't stay long enough to
find out.
364
00:18:21,088 --> 00:18:25,740
They used a fascinating
comparison methodology.
365
00:18:26,410 --> 00:18:29,538
So instead of just saying,
okay, here are the companies that
366
00:18:29,674 --> 00:18:34,434
are, if you will, right sample
justified these excellent ones here,
367
00:18:34,602 --> 00:18:38,594
they took each company that
they were looking at, this visionary
368
00:18:38,642 --> 00:18:42,802
company, in their words, and
paired it with a comparison company
369
00:18:42,906 --> 00:18:48,162
founded in the same era, in
the same industry, with very similar
370
00:18:48,266 --> 00:18:49,746
early products and markets.
371
00:18:49,778 --> 00:18:53,458
So trying to do a pairwise
comparison to make sure that we're
372
00:18:53,474 --> 00:18:56,402
not saying, oh, gosh,
actually, both of these companies
373
00:18:56,506 --> 00:19:01,922
had big, hairy, audacious
goals, but one failed and one succeeded.
374
00:19:01,986 --> 00:19:03,794
All right, I'll take that.
375
00:19:03,962 --> 00:19:09,470
And they said that they really
wanted to, in the research focus,
376
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:13,282
look at fundamental
characteristics that allow these
377
00:19:13,306 --> 00:19:16,690
companies to remain great over
long periods, through multiple generations,
378
00:19:16,770 --> 00:19:21,578
through changes in leadership,
through changing market conditions.
379
00:19:21,674 --> 00:19:25,690
So saying, let me make sure
that we've really put them through
380
00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:29,962
the test of varying variables
that would knock somebody off the
381
00:19:29,986 --> 00:19:30,714
excellent shelf.
382
00:19:30,762 --> 00:19:34,634
And that in fact had knocked a
number of companies off the excellent
383
00:19:34,682 --> 00:19:36,906
shelf of Peters and Waterman.
384
00:19:37,098 --> 00:19:42,378
Now they say that's really
what made their insights much more
385
00:19:42,514 --> 00:19:46,682
robust, in that your client
firms, if you were consultant back
386
00:19:46,706 --> 00:19:49,910
then, you could take these to
the bank for long term success.
387
00:19:50,290 --> 00:19:52,510
So they've tried to be more robust.
388
00:19:52,570 --> 00:19:55,110
We joked to ourselves a couple
of times in this conversation about
389
00:19:55,150 --> 00:19:59,926
how management scientists have
tried to look for rigour, methodological
390
00:19:59,958 --> 00:20:02,422
rigor, and it certainly seems
like we have the early signs of it
391
00:20:02,446 --> 00:20:03,970
here with Built to Last.
392
00:20:04,430 --> 00:20:07,894
Built to Last seems to have
been a response, partly a methodological
393
00:20:07,942 --> 00:20:09,958
response to In Search of Excellence.
394
00:20:10,134 --> 00:20:15,542
What blowback, if any, came
from Peters and Waterman to defend
395
00:20:15,606 --> 00:20:17,062
or augment the work that
they'd done?
396
00:20:17,086 --> 00:20:20,470
Earlier, Peters absolutely
stepped up in 2001.
397
00:20:20,510 --> 00:20:25,170
He said that we did highlight
some wrong companies, that we think
398
00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:29,330
all of our principles applied,
but we didn't do that.
399
00:20:29,370 --> 00:20:36,178
And maybe our central flaw was
suggesting that these same eight
400
00:20:36,234 --> 00:20:39,954
points would apply forever as
opposed to.
401
00:20:40,042 --> 00:20:44,338
They were an answer for these
companies at this point in time.
402
00:20:44,474 --> 00:20:47,506
However, he said, I think we
made a major contribution.
403
00:20:47,618 --> 00:20:54,114
We took some of the soft
factors and turn them into hard factors
404
00:20:54,242 --> 00:20:57,986
at a time when the only other,
the only hard factors to be considered
405
00:20:58,018 --> 00:20:59,170
were numbers.
406
00:20:59,330 --> 00:21:04,830
And Collins and Porus, I
think, also did some of that as well.
407
00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:06,418
Nice.
408
00:21:06,514 --> 00:21:11,362
So they've tried quite hard
then to retrospectively pull the
409
00:21:11,386 --> 00:21:12,162
ideas together.
410
00:21:12,266 --> 00:21:15,042
Do you think they would regard
themselves as colleagues or rivals,
411
00:21:15,106 --> 00:21:16,488
these two pairs of authors?
412
00:21:16,634 --> 00:21:22,876
It's funny, if you go back to
their heritage, it's like you talking
413
00:21:22,908 --> 00:21:26,908
about the Gen X consultants,
knowing you were competing against
414
00:21:27,044 --> 00:21:32,220
very similar individuals and
worrying that maybe somebody was
415
00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:34,860
staying up later and working harder.
416
00:21:35,020 --> 00:21:39,948
I think they would have seen
themselves very much as, hey, it's
417
00:21:39,964 --> 00:21:43,002
a big ocean out there, there's
room for us both.
418
00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:46,650
They were probably both
colleagues and rivals a little bit.
419
00:21:46,950 --> 00:21:49,614
They all of them stayed on the
lecture circuit and the speaking
420
00:21:49,662 --> 00:21:51,054
circuit for quite a while afterwards.
421
00:21:51,102 --> 00:21:51,838
So good luck to them.
422
00:21:51,894 --> 00:21:59,870
Absolutely, Ian.
423
00:21:59,950 --> 00:22:02,670
While all these great
thinkers, if you will, were trying
424
00:22:02,710 --> 00:22:07,198
to find the Platonic ideal for
an excellent company, there was an
425
00:22:07,254 --> 00:22:08,994
engineer up at mit.
426
00:22:09,182 --> 00:22:09,786
So different.
427
00:22:09,858 --> 00:22:13,882
This isn't Harvard, this isn't
Stanford, who was trying to think
428
00:22:13,986 --> 00:22:15,530
even bigger.
429
00:22:15,610 --> 00:22:19,430
Can you tell us a little bit
about that influence for Gen X?
430
00:22:19,810 --> 00:22:20,794
With pleasure.
431
00:22:20,922 --> 00:22:25,258
Not terribly far away, just a
little bit up the river at MIT was
432
00:22:25,394 --> 00:22:28,682
an engineer, an aerospace
engineer by training called Peter
433
00:22:28,746 --> 00:22:29,994
Sange or Sanji.
434
00:22:30,042 --> 00:22:31,706
I've heard it pronounced both ways.
435
00:22:31,818 --> 00:22:35,354
He was a lecturer at MIT who
was focused on group problem solving.
436
00:22:35,482 --> 00:22:38,954
He was a big advocate of a
discipline that he called systems
437
00:22:39,002 --> 00:22:39,498
thinking.
438
00:22:39,594 --> 00:22:43,194
And he wanted to apply this
method to try to convert companies
439
00:22:43,282 --> 00:22:46,714
from being merely ones that
tried to continually optimize themselves
440
00:22:46,762 --> 00:22:50,010
into ones that had a higher
level purpose of learning.
441
00:22:50,090 --> 00:22:54,218
He was an advocate of the idea
of an organization being a learning
442
00:22:54,314 --> 00:22:57,270
organization, trying to create
results that matter.
443
00:22:57,650 --> 00:23:01,866
So his book was called the
Fifth Discipline, the Art and Practice
444
00:23:01,898 --> 00:23:03,470
of the Learning Organization.
445
00:23:03,820 --> 00:23:06,900
And before we even get into
it, we should acknowledge this was
446
00:23:06,940 --> 00:23:08,164
one of the biggies.
447
00:23:08,292 --> 00:23:12,564
In 1997, Harvard Business
Review identified this as one of
448
00:23:12,572 --> 00:23:16,400
the seminal management books
of the previous 75 years.
449
00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:20,100
High praise for Senger and the
fifth discipline.
450
00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:23,892
And I can't quite remember the
first time I turned the pages, but
451
00:23:23,916 --> 00:23:28,052
this was one on everybody's
lips as we tried to justify our own
452
00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:30,574
thinking in front of the
clients and CEOs.
453
00:23:30,702 --> 00:23:33,330
What were the five disciplines?
454
00:23:33,670 --> 00:23:35,502
It's interesting that he
refers to the fifth one.
455
00:23:35,526 --> 00:23:38,558
It presumes that there are at
least four sort of subsidiary ones
456
00:23:38,574 --> 00:23:39,406
that go before it.
457
00:23:39,478 --> 00:23:40,990
And that's exactly the idea.
458
00:23:41,070 --> 00:23:44,686
The fundamental premise is
that the fifth discipline, this idea
459
00:23:44,718 --> 00:23:47,582
of systems thinking, is the
one that rules them all, is the one
460
00:23:47,606 --> 00:23:50,606
that integrates four other
core disciplines.
461
00:23:50,638 --> 00:23:52,810
And we'll talk through what
they are in a second.
462
00:23:53,110 --> 00:23:56,512
Systems thinking in Sange's
world helps us to see how different
463
00:23:56,616 --> 00:23:58,740
parts of an organization interact.
464
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,120
If this all has the sound of
the kind of language that you get
465
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,928
in a martial arts movie or in
studying Eastern philosophy, I don't
466
00:24:06,944 --> 00:24:08,512
think that's completely an accident.
467
00:24:08,576 --> 00:24:13,380
There's a little bit something
Zen about Senger and the fifth discipline.
468
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,776
It's not a habit, it's not a
tool, it's not a roadmap.
469
00:24:17,888 --> 00:24:21,872
A discipline is something that
you commit yourself to work out for
470
00:24:21,896 --> 00:24:22,400
your whole life.
471
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,296
It's your craft, and you're
forever improving on it.
472
00:24:25,368 --> 00:24:26,432
It's not a single thing.
473
00:24:26,456 --> 00:24:27,772
It's more of mindset.
474
00:24:27,836 --> 00:24:32,444
And I think this slightly
mystical tone is what Peter Senge
475
00:24:32,492 --> 00:24:33,548
was going for here.
476
00:24:33,684 --> 00:24:36,732
Now let me talk you through
the five disciplines just very quickly.
477
00:24:36,796 --> 00:24:39,660
You can find all of these
online and dig into it in more detail
478
00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:40,636
if you're interested.
479
00:24:40,748 --> 00:24:44,732
The first discipline is
systems thinking, to integrate all
480
00:24:44,756 --> 00:24:46,360
of the other disciplines together.
481
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:52,092
His big insight, or his big
point to the world was that when
482
00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:54,972
you make a change in one
place, you will be surprised how
483
00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:59,692
that has ripples of change and
consequences in other parts of the
484
00:24:59,716 --> 00:25:00,460
organization.
485
00:25:00,620 --> 00:25:03,996
And he was an advocate of the
idea that you could possibly model
486
00:25:04,028 --> 00:25:07,084
this and you could certainly
think about it and try and understand
487
00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:07,800
it.
488
00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:12,172
Next we have the discipline of
personal mastery.
489
00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:15,772
And this, I think, really
focuses on individual growth and
490
00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:16,188
learning.
491
00:25:16,284 --> 00:25:18,652
A little bit like Stephen
Covey, he's encouraging people to
492
00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:20,556
think about this at an
individual level.
493
00:25:20,628 --> 00:25:24,380
The discipline of personal
mastery means that we study and try
494
00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:26,680
to get better at the things
that matter most to us.
495
00:25:27,060 --> 00:25:28,844
This also creates tension.
496
00:25:28,892 --> 00:25:32,892
Our ultimate goal of mastery
shows us how far we are behind that
497
00:25:32,916 --> 00:25:33,596
level of mastery.
498
00:25:33,628 --> 00:25:36,572
And the tension between where
you'd like to get to and where you
499
00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:38,044
are now is motivating.
500
00:25:38,092 --> 00:25:41,180
And he has this metaphor of a
rubber band stretched between your
501
00:25:41,220 --> 00:25:42,840
goal and where you are now.
502
00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:47,868
It's quite an astute statement
about motivation and vision, especially
503
00:25:47,924 --> 00:25:49,760
of a certain kind of personality.
504
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:51,692
So that was personal mastery.
505
00:25:51,836 --> 00:25:56,252
We have mental models Senge is
telling us that we have these deeply
506
00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:59,052
ingrained assumptions and
generalizations, what you might call
507
00:25:59,076 --> 00:26:02,316
received wisdom, things that
everybody knows to be true or believes
508
00:26:02,348 --> 00:26:02,812
to be true.
509
00:26:02,876 --> 00:26:06,412
Employees are all basically
lazy, or people naturally want to
510
00:26:06,436 --> 00:26:08,520
learn and contribute
meaningfully to their work.
511
00:26:09,140 --> 00:26:10,876
These are two rather opposite statements.
512
00:26:10,908 --> 00:26:13,964
And if we can try and reject
the old flawed one and embrace a
513
00:26:13,972 --> 00:26:17,542
new one by embracing a new
mental model, says Sange, then we
514
00:26:17,566 --> 00:26:19,606
can cultivate the.
515
00:26:19,678 --> 00:26:21,130
The remaining disciplines.
516
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:23,302
Two more to go here, Mike.
517
00:26:23,446 --> 00:26:25,446
We've got shared vision.
518
00:26:25,558 --> 00:26:29,542
And by the way, I'm not sure,
but I guess this is one of the very
519
00:26:29,566 --> 00:26:32,374
early times in business
literature that somebody said it
520
00:26:32,382 --> 00:26:33,814
was important to have a vision.
521
00:26:33,942 --> 00:26:37,750
And there's lots of mockery
and cliches and roasting out there
522
00:26:37,790 --> 00:26:40,342
about the difference between
visions and missions and values and
523
00:26:40,366 --> 00:26:44,172
beliefs that corporations like
to write in big letters at the top
524
00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:48,668
of their website or in the
entrance hallway to their big headquarters.
525
00:26:48,844 --> 00:26:51,820
But Sange said that there was
something specific in mind.
526
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:55,052
When you talk about shared
vision, a picture of the future that
527
00:26:55,076 --> 00:26:58,188
people truly want to create
together, it has the feature of being
528
00:26:58,244 --> 00:26:58,684
compelling.
529
00:26:58,732 --> 00:27:01,004
That is to say, it's
motivating people to act.
530
00:27:01,172 --> 00:27:04,780
And it embraces the idea that
people will learn and excel because
531
00:27:04,820 --> 00:27:07,964
they want to, not because
they're told to.
532
00:27:08,052 --> 00:27:11,116
And this shared vision, when
it compels everybody, pulls the whole
533
00:27:11,148 --> 00:27:12,440
organization forward.
534
00:27:13,220 --> 00:27:16,076
So we had systems thinking,
personal mastery, mental models,
535
00:27:16,188 --> 00:27:17,068
shared vision.
536
00:27:17,164 --> 00:27:18,044
Time for discipline.
537
00:27:18,092 --> 00:27:20,720
Number five, team learning.
538
00:27:21,460 --> 00:27:23,772
He says that there is a
discipline of learning together as
539
00:27:23,796 --> 00:27:27,532
a team, that we need to
suspend assumptions and listen and
540
00:27:27,556 --> 00:27:30,252
engage with each other to
create genuinely new thinking.
541
00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:33,692
And there's a connection
between this idea and the work of
542
00:27:33,716 --> 00:27:36,620
a jazz ensemble, where
musicians are listening to each other
543
00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:41,130
and reacting and creating
something greater than any one voice
544
00:27:41,290 --> 00:27:42,230
could create.
545
00:27:43,890 --> 00:27:48,202
So, Mike, I think the big
strength of this is the power and
546
00:27:48,226 --> 00:27:50,030
the depth of some of the thinking.
547
00:27:50,770 --> 00:27:52,682
I think there's lots that's
quite new here.
548
00:27:52,706 --> 00:27:54,586
There are one or two things
that are rehashes of old ideas.
549
00:27:54,618 --> 00:27:56,602
There's some really
interesting new insights.
550
00:27:56,746 --> 00:27:59,434
And I can get on board a
little bit with Peter Sanke because
551
00:27:59,442 --> 00:28:01,590
he's an engineer and he was
trying hard to think.
552
00:28:02,130 --> 00:28:05,802
The downside for me is that
some of this comes across as a little
553
00:28:05,826 --> 00:28:09,810
bit pompous, comes across as a
little bit overblown, partly because
554
00:28:09,850 --> 00:28:13,842
it gets very woo about the
ideas, and that's partly, I think,
555
00:28:13,866 --> 00:28:18,098
because he's trying to make a
statement that is eternally true.
556
00:28:18,194 --> 00:28:20,706
He's trying to elevate this
all to the level of something that
557
00:28:20,858 --> 00:28:22,870
has the power of a law of nature.
558
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:25,362
And I'm not sure that it
stacks up at that.
559
00:28:25,386 --> 00:28:28,178
I don't think it's got enough
strength to bear its own weight.
560
00:28:28,274 --> 00:28:31,826
So I'm a little bit conflicted
as I look back at this book here.
561
00:28:31,898 --> 00:28:33,342
I really like the ideas.
562
00:28:33,506 --> 00:28:35,930
I'm not sure about how some of
them are presented.
563
00:28:36,590 --> 00:28:40,950
Yeah, Ian, I had a very
similar feeling in looking back on
564
00:28:40,990 --> 00:28:42,310
some of these books.
565
00:28:42,470 --> 00:28:47,110
And I have to remember coming
back to the fifth discipline a little
566
00:28:47,150 --> 00:28:52,486
bit later, not now, but as a
reference for some work I was doing
567
00:28:52,638 --> 00:28:55,942
in a consulting project and
having a little of those feelings
568
00:28:56,006 --> 00:28:58,854
there was on the one hand
something that says this was to me
569
00:28:58,942 --> 00:29:01,450
personally very compelling and interesting.
570
00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:05,566
And two, a little bit like
some of this, a little too woo woo
571
00:29:05,598 --> 00:29:07,090
for my client.
572
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:12,590
Although just thinking about
the disciplines themselves as you
573
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:15,822
just expressed them there, I'm
being pulled back the other way a
574
00:29:15,846 --> 00:29:19,118
little bit for a minute here
going, God, this is really important
575
00:29:19,254 --> 00:29:19,614
stuff.
576
00:29:19,662 --> 00:29:21,118
And it's so true.
577
00:29:21,294 --> 00:29:24,126
The unintended consequences of
some of what we do.
578
00:29:24,278 --> 00:29:28,674
I later got into scenario
planning and lots of scenario planning
579
00:29:28,722 --> 00:29:32,626
engagements, these
ramifications and the way things
580
00:29:32,698 --> 00:29:34,994
had feedback loops and all of that.
581
00:29:35,082 --> 00:29:36,098
It was different.
582
00:29:36,234 --> 00:29:39,714
We haven't even talked about
re engineering the Corporation Hammers
583
00:29:39,762 --> 00:29:40,226
and Champion.
584
00:29:40,258 --> 00:29:45,330
Oh my gosh, I can't imagine
how many bonuses were built on that
585
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:48,790
book and all the engagements
that drove.
586
00:29:49,290 --> 00:29:55,714
But back then I was also
thinking, these are all gurus and
587
00:29:55,722 --> 00:29:58,210
they're gurus with kind of a solution.
588
00:29:58,370 --> 00:30:02,530
And they were meant to be
almost one size fits all for all
589
00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:03,190
firms.
590
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:07,970
And part of my little
juxtaposition was I was remembering
591
00:30:08,050 --> 00:30:10,930
another one that was pretty
much driving some of my thinking
592
00:30:11,010 --> 00:30:14,722
in a lot of the strategy work
I was doing back then was a 1980s
593
00:30:14,786 --> 00:30:15,058
book.
594
00:30:15,114 --> 00:30:17,346
So we're going back again a
long way back.
595
00:30:17,418 --> 00:30:19,042
Michael Porter's Competitive Strategy.
596
00:30:19,106 --> 00:30:23,976
And all of a sudden some of
the strategy thoughts that were both
597
00:30:24,048 --> 00:30:28,632
a combination of more rigorous
economic analysis and a little bit
598
00:30:28,656 --> 00:30:32,360
of not just necessarily one
size fits all, but again, it's another
599
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,112
set of silver bullets as we
were trying to figure out precursors
600
00:30:37,176 --> 00:30:41,880
to the Internet, then the
eventual Internet, and then how businesses
601
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,920
could themselves be completely
transformed by what was going on.
602
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,874
Here I was at IBM, consulting
at Watson Labs.
603
00:30:49,922 --> 00:30:53,602
I'm walking down the halls
past Nobel Prize winners and people
604
00:30:53,626 --> 00:30:58,130
who are pretty much on track
to be Nobel Prize winners and trying
605
00:30:58,170 --> 00:31:03,634
to solve business issues and
thinking that's science, this is
606
00:31:03,722 --> 00:31:04,350
business.
607
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:11,074
But paradigms are important
and rigor is important and how do
608
00:31:11,082 --> 00:31:12,990
we bring these things together?
609
00:31:13,390 --> 00:31:17,110
It was a place that had
offices but had whiteboards, that
610
00:31:17,150 --> 00:31:22,934
had people together, that was
open 247 and served coffee 24 7.
611
00:31:23,102 --> 00:31:27,414
And these interactions of
ideas and these little conversations,
612
00:31:27,542 --> 00:31:33,878
what also is proven through
rigor and that also speaks to contingencies.
613
00:31:34,054 --> 00:31:37,654
And then I guess the last
thought, Ian, is one that you and
614
00:31:37,662 --> 00:31:40,620
I were talking about earlier
and that's that.
615
00:31:40,660 --> 00:31:43,036
And I alluded to a little bit
earlier, the map.
616
00:31:43,148 --> 00:31:43,708
You were.
617
00:31:43,764 --> 00:31:46,460
You want to talk about just
for a minute, the map and how these
618
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,476
were maybe maps for all of us?
619
00:31:48,628 --> 00:31:49,244
Yeah.
620
00:31:49,372 --> 00:31:50,492
There's an old joke, isn't there?
621
00:31:50,516 --> 00:31:50,892
That was it.
622
00:31:50,916 --> 00:31:55,532
Party of soldiers or explorers
or something stumbling across the
623
00:31:55,556 --> 00:31:59,036
mountaintops in a storm and
they twists and turns and they're
624
00:31:59,068 --> 00:32:01,772
almost ruined and then they're
almost saved and then they're just
625
00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:02,940
about doomed again.
626
00:32:02,980 --> 00:32:06,332
And then finally they make it
back and they go, thank heavens we
627
00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:07,676
were saved because we had a map.
628
00:32:07,708 --> 00:32:10,358
And then whoever has been
supervising the expedition turns
629
00:32:10,374 --> 00:32:12,534
over the map and says, you've
got the map to the wrong part of
630
00:32:12,542 --> 00:32:12,758
the.
631
00:32:12,814 --> 00:32:14,130
Part of the terrain there.
632
00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:18,134
So the value of having a piece
of paper in front of us gives us
633
00:32:18,302 --> 00:32:22,678
sort of confidence far in
advance of the actual value of what's
634
00:32:22,694 --> 00:32:23,958
written on the piece of paper.
635
00:32:24,134 --> 00:32:30,086
And I think that's a very good
precis of the mindset of Gen X consultants
636
00:32:30,118 --> 00:32:31,030
and business people.
637
00:32:31,150 --> 00:32:33,302
We really wanted to believe
that the map was going to help us
638
00:32:33,326 --> 00:32:35,760
because there was all this
turmoil and change going around as
639
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,584
businesses became technology based.
640
00:32:37,752 --> 00:32:41,552
I think also it appealed to
the ego of consultants wanting to
641
00:32:41,576 --> 00:32:44,192
be the one holding your own
piece of the map, wanting to be your
642
00:32:44,216 --> 00:32:45,024
own guru.
643
00:32:45,152 --> 00:32:48,208
I think lots of us thought
that it was our job to try and somehow
644
00:32:48,304 --> 00:32:49,968
be mini gurus of our own.
645
00:32:50,024 --> 00:32:52,416
Like, ah, that's Frieda or Frederick.
646
00:32:52,448 --> 00:32:53,664
He or she is the.
647
00:32:53,832 --> 00:33:00,512
The telecoms and media supply
chain integration strategy guru for
648
00:33:00,536 --> 00:33:01,342
our firm.
649
00:33:01,496 --> 00:33:04,066
And everybody wanted to be a
guru or saw that as their destiny
650
00:33:04,098 --> 00:33:04,830
in life.
651
00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:09,202
It's motivating enough to have
kept quite a few careers going.
652
00:33:09,306 --> 00:33:12,082
You look back at it now,
though, Mike, with a little bit of
653
00:33:12,266 --> 00:33:16,082
detachment, and you think the
individual ideas are great.
654
00:33:16,186 --> 00:33:17,906
And I think that's my take on
Peter Senge.
655
00:33:17,938 --> 00:33:20,962
I think the individual ideas
are great, really powerful ideas
656
00:33:21,026 --> 00:33:24,498
that drive solutions to some
really big problems that organizations
657
00:33:24,594 --> 00:33:25,522
still have.
658
00:33:25,706 --> 00:33:29,948
The way that we knit the whole
thing together, though, I think doesn't
659
00:33:29,964 --> 00:33:31,000
quite stand up.
660
00:33:32,660 --> 00:33:39,532
But I do love the idea of the
power of learning married with the
661
00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:41,148
power of context.
662
00:33:41,324 --> 00:33:46,572
And why consulting firms and
consultants can be so incredibly
663
00:33:46,636 --> 00:33:48,400
powerful and helpful.
664
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:53,964
I look forward as we go on to
next week, to say how do we click
665
00:33:54,012 --> 00:33:56,522
forward into our next generation?
666
00:33:56,666 --> 00:33:58,138
Yeah, it's a good question.
667
00:33:58,274 --> 00:34:00,666
And there's a fascinating
connection to later generations.
668
00:34:00,778 --> 00:34:01,834
Before we move off.
669
00:34:01,922 --> 00:34:05,562
Peter Sanjay in the Fifth
Discipline, his later career, he
670
00:34:05,586 --> 00:34:07,882
took this idea of the
interconnectedness of things and
671
00:34:07,906 --> 00:34:11,274
the interconnectedness of the
world and human humanity and became
672
00:34:11,322 --> 00:34:14,910
a big writer about and a big
advocate for sustainability.
673
00:34:15,330 --> 00:34:19,082
So if you're sitting here as a
millennial or a Gen Z thinking this
674
00:34:19,106 --> 00:34:21,186
is Gen X stuff, this doesn't
bother me.
675
00:34:21,298 --> 00:34:26,114
Take a look at where the idea
later got to with this thinking.
676
00:34:26,162 --> 00:34:29,106
It took us to a real view of
the connectedness of all of the changes
677
00:34:29,138 --> 00:34:31,746
in the world and the way human
beings interact with what's happening
678
00:34:31,778 --> 00:34:32,674
around us.
679
00:34:32,842 --> 00:34:36,658
So he gets great points, I
think, for having been farsighted
680
00:34:36,674 --> 00:34:41,042
on that this particular book
formulated and encapsulated in this
681
00:34:41,066 --> 00:34:41,570
particular way.
682
00:34:41,610 --> 00:34:44,110
I think now is a little of its time.
683
00:34:50,180 --> 00:34:54,300
Mike of these three that we've
talked about at some length now,
684
00:34:54,340 --> 00:34:55,516
and it has been fun.
685
00:34:55,668 --> 00:35:00,188
Of these three, which would
you like to recommend to someone
686
00:35:00,244 --> 00:35:04,140
who wants to get their minds
around Generation X thinking or to
687
00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:08,000
just help them along as
thoughtful consultants?
688
00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:09,388
It's interesting.
689
00:35:09,484 --> 00:35:10,588
We go back and forth.
690
00:35:10,684 --> 00:35:14,898
I think I'm going to come back
to Fifth Discipline that on the one
691
00:35:14,954 --> 00:35:19,650
hand, maybe we do it in a more
generationally appropriate way.
692
00:35:19,690 --> 00:35:23,154
Maybe we do it through some
podcasts that are looking back, not
693
00:35:23,242 --> 00:35:25,266
just ours, but some others.
694
00:35:25,338 --> 00:35:28,130
Maybe we do it through some
TED Talks, maybe we do it through
695
00:35:28,170 --> 00:35:28,674
some videos.
696
00:35:28,722 --> 00:35:31,906
Then we find out ways to say,
wait a minute, can we cut through
697
00:35:31,978 --> 00:35:35,906
some of this and say, is there
some really good stuff going on here?
698
00:35:35,978 --> 00:35:37,538
I certainly have learned.
699
00:35:37,714 --> 00:35:41,992
So if we go back to when we
were talking about the secrets of
700
00:35:42,016 --> 00:35:46,744
consulting and Jerry Weinberg
remembering that he was quoting Virginia
701
00:35:46,792 --> 00:35:47,640
Satir.
702
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,552
Oh yeah, who was the person
who was behind family systems, who
703
00:35:52,576 --> 00:35:56,088
applied systems thinking to
families and did great breakthroughs
704
00:35:56,184 --> 00:35:57,256
in working with them.
705
00:35:57,328 --> 00:36:00,488
Jerry was applying the same
thing to consulting on a much more
706
00:36:00,544 --> 00:36:01,512
practical level.
707
00:36:01,616 --> 00:36:05,912
So while I might say that
maybe fifth Discipline, not the all
708
00:36:05,936 --> 00:36:09,940
singing, all dancing thing
that it was, but some reminders about
709
00:36:10,060 --> 00:36:13,860
some of those disciplines and
the power that they still hold for
710
00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:14,532
us now.
711
00:36:14,636 --> 00:36:17,060
I remember one example too
that he used.
712
00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:18,772
You and I are both at P31 now.
713
00:36:18,796 --> 00:36:23,732
We do a lot of trading for
consultants, for people inside of
714
00:36:23,756 --> 00:36:24,932
firm surgeon consulting.
715
00:36:24,996 --> 00:36:28,564
And I remember one of Sega's
original examples was how talking
716
00:36:28,612 --> 00:36:33,268
about how small changes can
lead to unexpected problems and follow
717
00:36:33,324 --> 00:36:34,180
on consequences.
718
00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:38,982
And an example was that a
quick fix to something like budget
719
00:36:39,046 --> 00:36:43,382
control, like cutting training
programs, might temporarily reduce
720
00:36:43,446 --> 00:36:47,350
costs but could lead to
decreased capability, lower morale
721
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:50,934
and eventually higher
turnover, creating a reinforcing
722
00:36:50,982 --> 00:36:51,974
cycle of problems.
723
00:36:52,022 --> 00:36:55,462
And I thought, you know what,
Peter, you've expressed that really
724
00:36:55,486 --> 00:36:55,670
well.
725
00:36:55,710 --> 00:36:57,894
I almost want to put that on
the P31 website.
726
00:36:57,982 --> 00:37:04,736
But so from a selfish and from
somebody who is now trying to work
727
00:37:04,808 --> 00:37:09,180
to think about craft and
discipline over time.
728
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,144
Personally, I think there was
a good bit of what Sange was talking
729
00:37:14,192 --> 00:37:18,512
about that if we pull it out
of the timed context that he was
730
00:37:18,536 --> 00:37:22,576
in, could be perhaps even more
helpful than big audacious Harry
731
00:37:22,608 --> 00:37:23,136
goals.
732
00:37:23,248 --> 00:37:24,000
I don't know.
733
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:25,184
I think so.
734
00:37:25,352 --> 00:37:28,160
I think these books were
striving to and partly were at the
735
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,090
high water mark of big
integrative, thoughtful ideas about
736
00:37:33,130 --> 00:37:34,290
whole corporations.
737
00:37:34,450 --> 00:37:36,770
And I think that what's
happened in the decades since then
738
00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:39,634
is that we've sub specialized
and the picture's fragmented in a
739
00:37:39,642 --> 00:37:41,010
way that's actually useful.
740
00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:43,842
We've stopped trying to make
it all into one big integrative picture.
741
00:37:43,906 --> 00:37:48,994
Not completely, but mainly on
the one hand, we are really lucky
742
00:37:49,042 --> 00:37:52,210
as business people and
consultants that we've got all this
743
00:37:52,250 --> 00:37:53,426
literature to choose from.
744
00:37:53,498 --> 00:37:57,370
Whatever kind of inspiration
and insight and analysis you'd like,
745
00:37:57,410 --> 00:38:00,362
there's some of it out there
written by some really smart people
746
00:38:00,466 --> 00:38:02,762
who are also, by the way, very
good at selling books.
747
00:38:02,906 --> 00:38:03,590
Right?
748
00:38:03,970 --> 00:38:05,242
So that's our good fortune.
749
00:38:05,306 --> 00:38:08,826
On the other hand, we can be
distracted by these many volumes
750
00:38:08,858 --> 00:38:09,274
of work.
751
00:38:09,362 --> 00:38:10,666
Think about it this way, Mike.
752
00:38:10,778 --> 00:38:15,870
No one has ever tried to write
the one big, integrated, fundamental,
753
00:38:16,770 --> 00:38:20,538
universal perspective on the
art of plumbing like that.
754
00:38:20,594 --> 00:38:24,622
Career does not need a whole
literature to framework itself and
755
00:38:24,646 --> 00:38:27,690
break itself down and measure
it and insightfulize it.
756
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:30,414
People just go out and learn
how to plumb and they get on and
757
00:38:30,422 --> 00:38:32,130
they make the water come out
the taps.
758
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:35,726
So maybe sometimes we need to
get over ourselves a bit.
759
00:38:35,878 --> 00:38:36,782
Nice, nice.
760
00:38:36,846 --> 00:38:39,390
Ian, let me throw the same
question back to you.
761
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:42,494
Which of these would you
recommend to someone who again either
762
00:38:42,542 --> 00:38:46,510
wants to get their minds
around Gen X thinking or just help
763
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:47,726
them as a consultant?
764
00:38:47,838 --> 00:38:49,710
I think I'm going to go for
fifth discipline again.
765
00:38:49,750 --> 00:38:54,086
But I'm going to say skim it,
pick and choose the chapters and
766
00:38:54,158 --> 00:38:57,766
then, especially if you're the
generation younger, go and check
767
00:38:57,798 --> 00:39:00,886
out some of Senge's work on
sustainability because you can see
768
00:39:00,958 --> 00:39:03,702
a connection here and you can
appreciate the value of where his
769
00:39:03,726 --> 00:39:04,850
thoughts are coming from.
770
00:39:05,310 --> 00:39:07,654
The only other thing I want to
say about the fifth discipline is
771
00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:10,262
that I hope it appeals to our
surrogate listener, Bruce.
772
00:39:10,326 --> 00:39:11,014
Hello, Bruce.
773
00:39:11,062 --> 00:39:12,422
This is all for you, my friend.
774
00:39:12,446 --> 00:39:13,398
I think this might be right.
775
00:39:13,454 --> 00:39:14,662
All in your wheelhouse.
776
00:39:14,726 --> 00:39:16,534
Hope you're enjoying the show, Bruce.
777
00:39:16,582 --> 00:39:17,814
We're glad to have you listening.
778
00:39:17,862 --> 00:39:18,930
Thanks so much.
779
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,776
All right, Ian.
780
00:39:20,888 --> 00:39:27,880
Next week, even more as we
move on to the next generation on
781
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,760
the Consulting for Humans podcast.
782
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,752
Millennials.
783
00:39:31,816 --> 00:39:32,952
We're coming for you.
784
00:39:33,056 --> 00:39:35,380
Look forward to talking with
you next week.
785
00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:44,650
Sa.