Vincent Saunders: today's episode is a really important one for our industry and lots of industries. ⁓ We talk a lot about risk, and performance, not about how leadership mindset and everyday behaviors actually influence long-term outcomes. My guest today works at a national level across health and safety and risk operating in complex high pressure environments. I look forward to unpacking in this conversation today is how safety and risk management move beyond compliance and move into culture influence and sustainable performance for teams. Thanks much for coming on, Ben Matthews, how are you?
Benny Mathews: I'm good, long time no see, good to see you.
Vincent Saunders: That's good. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Are you in Auckland or Melbourne at the moment? I was a bit confused by that.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, know I that throws it off everyone because I think we weren't on our LinkedIn and he says like Kmart Target Australia, but yeah, I'm based here in Auckland for now.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, okay, cool. Okay, for now, okay, sweet. And yeah, so just to, I guess, just to get us started off, can you give us a bit of a background your career journey ⁓ how you ended up working across health and safety and risk at a national level?
Benny Mathews: definitely, I would definitely describe it as a journey. I ⁓ while I was at school with yourself, had a part-time job at Bunnings, just working there on the weekends to pay for petrol and things like that. And while I was there, I joined the safety committee for the store that I was working in and just did a couple of things through there. Managed to meet, who's now one of good friends, Louise Speed, who was the safety manager for Bunnings at the time. And she just had a chat to her about some safety stuff that was happening on site and some ideas and things. And she asked me if I'd be keen to come in and do some, know, help with some projects in the national space. And I thought, yeah, why not? Like some extra hours, extra money, why not? And so I really enjoyed that, really liked working in that team. And then sort of got to the end of my uni degree, doing a teaching degree and kind of yeah, I don't really think this is for me. Like, it sounded good. All my friends are doing this, but... After my last 20 week practicum, I was like, nah, I don't think this is right for me. And at the time Bunnings had created a new role for managing work related injuries and asked me if I'd be keen to do that. So I put my hand up and said, yeah, why not? Like brand new role, get to shape it myself. And that yeah, gosh, that's a few years ago now. ⁓ But that my first role in a safety team. And ⁓ since then just become really curious about. Yeah, safety within organizations and why people choose to things the way they do, what influences that from a leadership culture process point of view. ⁓ I just sort of, yeah, taken opportunities as they've come my way. you I ⁓ like say worked hard as well, you know, and had fun. But yeah, of moved across Australia to the UK in different safety roles and then back here to New Zealand, ⁓ working for Group.
Vincent Saunders: Cool. And so yeah, well, we were all at school, you're working hard and developing your skills to take them to the next level and here we are. So we're all kicking around at school and you had a part-time job. yeah, good for you. Well, we were all doing nothing. Anyway, so yeah, just to give us a bit of a background on what you're doing currently. What does your current role look like day to day at the moment?
Benny Mathews: Ha! Yeah, ⁓ my role is actually quite broad because I'm working across Kmart Target. That's all the stores, distribution centers, supply chain, and our national offices, and also supporting our new stores over in the Philippines, the Anco stores there. So my day-to-day is just extremely varied. You can imagine the sort of risk profile across all of those different business units and sort of projects that come So we actually just rolled ⁓ out implemented eco portal. So a new safety management, injury management, risk management system across all of those sites. So ⁓ prior to that, we had about eight different systems which made data collection and reporting really confusing for everyone. massive project to bring that all into one place, giving team members access their fingertips for tools that they need around safety, but also to report things, to manage an injury, to check in. Then outside of ⁓ projects like huge ones, ⁓ supporting
Vincent Saunders: Mm-hmm.
Benny Mathews: the team with implementing critical risk. So critical risk controls, lots of reporting, obviously across our organization, right up to Wes Farmer's board level. And also have a team that our Space support team, which is where our sites can contact for sort of low level triage advice. So where do I find this form or what training is for this, or can you help me with something? ⁓ That sort of like a call center for our 450 stores to reach up and get advice. And then outside of that, like, run a whole lot of facilitated workshops, training sessions across the organisation on lots of different topics to help build capability across our leadership teams.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, well, it sounds like a very, very broad and very intense role. ⁓ Yeah, like how do you, yeah, how has that changed obviously from now till when you first started at, know, at the business you're working in, like what is, what are you doing now than maybe what wasn't there?
Benny Mathews: Mm. I think about like when I first at that was my first foray into safety. And, you know, we were reporting things on like a of paper and putting them in a filing cabinet. And I don't know, ever know what happened to those things. But even think about like some of my own behaviours and the things that I did ⁓ at age when I was working and yeah, a lot more risk taking and ⁓ safety wasn't necessarily like front of mind for me personally. it wasn't sort of until I got into the safety and wellbeing team that I really started to think differently about this. And back then I was just always ⁓ interested around behavior and like the psychology element of it. ⁓ just really, there was in that that just really lit a fire for me or really wanted to lean into. ⁓ I was... less interested in the compliance. So the legislation, the rules, the guidelines, like that just seemed really like boring to me. And I also could see that that didn't resonate very well for people on the frontline as well. my curiosity was always in that space. Like, how can we make this better? How do we ⁓ safety so people, ⁓ makes sense that we do it with them rather than to them. ⁓ can we simplify things? How do we make it easier to things safely? And so content like my mindset is still the same, like 20 years later, I'm still in that space, constantly challenging the organization to go, hey, where can we remove these roadblocks or silly rules that don't make sense or are a hindrance to the work? But how can we put things in place that actually help build capability, increase capacity, improve the chances of things going well? And so I think that's just like a continuous journey, like across every organization is at a different point in that stage.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: And we're wrestling with that all the time. And I think about sort of of the safety tools that we have out there at the moment, like standard operating procedures or ⁓ And I think, yeah, have we really shifted with the times there? Like I know, you know, way back when, like that made sense when your job was step one, step two, step three, step four, you followed a clear process like that. Here's a ⁓ that shows you how to do that safely. But our world is just so different now. ⁓ much more complex, so much more dynamic. Like it's impossible to have a procedure that covers everything to keep people safe. And so how do we move from like a rules-based sort of thinking to more risk-based where we empower our people to make decisions, give them the tools to do that. But don't get so hung up on having like this prescriptive document that tries to capture every single safety outcome or every single ⁓ possible risk. Like it's just, yeah, you're going to be chasing your tail for ever and you probably have thousands and thousands of pieces of paper trying to do that. So.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: much as I'd like to say it has changed in New Zealand, think ⁓ sort of slowly on that journey and ⁓ we get to that point where safety becomes more just a BAU, like we're empowering people to do it rather than telling them what to do.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, like I think it's kind of funny to talk about New Zealand maybe being like a little bit slightly behind like when I worked in the UK in construction, it kind of felt like New Zealand was maybe like five to 10 years maybe behind sort of what some of the some of the bigger projects are doing in the UK and like underground. Obviously the projects are bigger and obviously more complex, but their safety systems and the around people sort of safety for their own responsibility, like that seemed a little bit more common in the UK. Yeah, anyway, it's just a thought. your experience, what organizations often misunderstand about health and safety and risk?
Benny Mathews: ⁓ organizations misunderstanding. I think just perhaps having like a narrow view of safety and risk. And so trying to broaden their thinking ⁓ around what is risk? How do you measure safety performance? And I one of the narrow views is safety ⁓ Performance is measured by injury. So, you know more injuries means terrible safety performance less injury means good safety performance but Really like that's only just one metric right? Like there's so many if you think about your overall health and well-being you wouldn't just write your Well-being based on like how many beats your heart does per minute, right? Like there's so many other factors that tell you whether you're healthy or not And it's the same with safety performance like injury performance is just one that we can use but like you know, there's so many around engagement, around critical control performance, how much effort and energy is put into safety, what's the capacity or resources. And so it's trying to, I think, yeah, it's not necessarily misunderstanding health and safety, but it's just sort of broadening their minds there to go, hey, actually, there's a whole lot of data points out here. How do we get those to you in a meaningful way that tells you a story around really what's happening in your organization? Because... You could have zero injuries and think everything is great and your safety performance is awesome, but perhaps that's just people not feeling safe to speak up or not reporting those things. And so that can be a false sense of security, those numbers as well. So we need to broaden our perspective and our thinking around what data is actually going to be helpful for us to tell us whether we're performing well or there's some opportunities there.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, I think that's a super interesting insight because yeah, lot of construction companies, in particular, would just look at injuries per year and have like a have a rating per year and as long as that's dropping, that's like, hey, we're doing a great job here. It's super interesting, interesting thing to think about. Where do you see some of the biggest gaps between policies on paper and behaviors in reality? I know that's a pretty broad question, but yeah, gaps between, hey, you should be doing this, and then in behavior, they're like, what are those guys doing over there, or what are they doing over there? That's completely different.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I think the issue is because, well, the issue can be because it's people ⁓ myself that are in a national office role writing these policies and procedures, right? ⁓ I'm so far removed from the person that's actually doing the role, driving the forklift, picking that load or, know, driving that huge truck or crane or whatever it is. ⁓ So am I the best person to be writing that? ⁓ It might be because yeah, I've got a degree, whatever, and I can formally write those things, but does that really correspond or relate to the person on the front line? Are they the best people placed to know, okay, is the safest way to do that? How do I document that? And some things that I've seen really cool is where we, ⁓ personally, we try not to just sit behind a desk and write these things, but actually get out there.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: and understand those challenges, what gets in the way, like what slows work down, makes it difficult. And we've used a concept which we've sort of rebranded in our world called operational learning, it's based on the 4Ds framework. quite popular at the moment around, know, ⁓ people on the front line what's difficult, what's dangerous, what doesn't make sense, and what's dumb about the work that you do. ⁓ those four questions deliberately to really ⁓ open up a conversation with people on the front line to understand those challenges, and then listening and taking that back and going, okay, well, how can we improve our safety procedures, our controls, our training, how we plan work, how we communicate. It's really about, yeah, trying to bridge the gap between what happens in the ⁓ tower of the head office versus the front line. And yeah, what's that gap there that we can ⁓ and ⁓ by just talking, opening. asking open questions and then really listening and doing taking action on the back of that.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, like I think, I don't know, you said, talked about like the what in front of those, the four days and talked about open questions. Like I think of the, ⁓ conversations can be such close questions. Like is your day going well? Yes. ⁓ you had any health and safety injuries lately? No. ⁓ like, but the conversation should be a lot more broader around how you could work together as a collective to like, in my point of view, how can you... gather a team together to finish a project on site. Having those open questions really just opens the door to other insights and other people's perspective on things that you, the ivory tower, might not actually ⁓ what's happening down there. It's cool insight, I think.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, and you know, like those four questions are so easy to ask and, you know, like they're really easy to remember as well. Like it's just four D's and the conversation that opens up, well, what can, you know, come out of those conversations is so much gold. And, you know, it does rely on the relationship. Like we couldn't just have, you know,
Vincent Saunders: Yeah. Mm.
Benny Mathews: a top level manager go into a store that has never talked to that team before and expect to have this really psychologically safe and open conversation. and so you still do ⁓ to have some sort of level of respect and relationship and trust there because ⁓ people are going to really start talking about what's dumb, what's difficult. They need to know that they're sharing that with someone that will listen, not judge, not try to justify or explain their way around why we do something. It's really, ⁓ conversations really is about not so much you talking, ⁓ you listening to the the front line and then thinking about, well, this is, whether you agree with it or not, this is their lived experience. This is what they're saying. And so it's up to us to then absorb that and reflect on that and go, okay, what can we do differently to help the messaging there or the understanding there or changing the way we plan that work or design that work? Because the experience, whether we believe it or not, that's what they're feeling, you know? ⁓ So those questions I think are really helpful. And yeah, they are open questions deliberately so that, you know, you're not just getting yes or no.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: nods,
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, hopefully. It's quite good. You talked about a lot of the pressure, sort of a lot of things going on in our life at the moment, like very, very complex lives, juggling multiple things at the moment. A lot of incidents don't come from, potentially don't come from lack of knowledge, they come from maybe a poor decision was made under pressure or something else going on in someone's life that influences them to maybe take a shortcut or do something a little bit quicker. do you see mindset influencing risks ⁓ behaviours on a daily basis or from ⁓ where working at moment?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, a really good question. think it's quite, you know, like you can answer that from many angles, you know, like if I think about our team ⁓ ⁓ situation, our team in stores, sometimes they will make a decision or behave in a certain way because ⁓ of their innate values, like the things that are really important to them. if I think, for example, like we have a rule that says, you you don't detain a customer or don't try and grab their bag. You can, you know, ask them to look in their bag and, you know, check their receipt and everything. But our role is to not, we're not the police. shouldn't be, you know, tackling people to the ground or ⁓ to stop them from leaving the store because you just never know what weapons they might have or how that's going to go. But for some people, ⁓ they really strong values around, you know, injustice in the world.
Vincent Saunders: Mm-hmm.
Benny Mathews: And so when they see things that, you know, clash with those values, they help but step in and, you know, potentially try and de-escalate ⁓ a between someone else or, ⁓ you they're seeing wrong in the world and they want to take the right action. so, ⁓ you being mindful that, that people have those values, but also when you are with Kmart Group, we've also got our own values as well. And so how do we get, make sure that our rules are really clear that, you ⁓
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: there's reasons why we don't step in or we don't do those things. So acknowledge that you know, have really strong values around this and you don't like to see the injustice in the world, but hey, whilst you're at work, this is what you can do about that. So instead of grabbing the trolley that you can use the body worn cameras, you can call for help, you can call security, like these are the tools available whilst you're at work to do that. can't control what you do outside of work. So if you see something, you know, on the footy field or something like that, like ⁓ handle that however you want to. ⁓ whilst you're at work, like there's certain ways of that we can help support you manage that when because we agree we don't want to see these things happen either but there's proper ways so that you don't get hurt that others don't get hurt so I find like ⁓ know thinking about that binary term of like was that a good decision or a poor decision you know I think people always make decisions based on the information they had at the time in the context and so you know I always try and think to myself like yeah Perhaps that does sound like a poor decision. You're like, why would you do that? Why would you stand in front of that person that's got a weapon or try and grab that trolley when they're three times bigger than you? But I have to remind myself that like in the moment, in the context of what was happening with the emotion, the noise, all the people around like that felt like the right decision for that person at the time. And, you know, there's no, I don't really see too much point in punishing those people because, you know, if they do get hurt or if they are involved in something like, is that not punishment enough? And I think, you know, most people would learn from that next time and be like, okay, well next time, know, I'm probably not going to go up against that person that's three times bigger than me or near that person with a weapon because hopefully they've learnt from that and how do we support them after those events.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah. do you kind of align values if maybe someone has different values? ⁓
Benny Mathews: Yeah, and I mean, that's gonna happen all the time, you know, like, we've got, I think, almost 50,000 team members across our organization. And whilst I would love to say like, yeah, everyone, like, we all have the same values, like, well, what a boring place to work that would be, you know, if that was the case. And so I think it's important that there's like diversity there, you might have different values and...
Vincent Saunders: Yeah.
Benny Mathews: some of your values might have higher weighting than perhaps other ones. Ultimately, like we should be aligned, you should be able to see yourself in this organization, those values connect with you. If not, you know, naturally, if that was me, I'd be asking, ⁓ maybe this isn't the right place for me, you know, like, I feel like there's conflict here between our values. You know, the way, you know, things play out here wouldn't ⁓ not not for me and vice versa, you know, the, ⁓ the organization also be like, hey, your, your values or how you're behaving don't align with us and so there's a conversation there. But I think when you're this large, like you're always going to have that sort of tension between ⁓ And so I think for us, it's making sure those values are not just a slogan or, you know, a screensaver or wallpaper on a team's background, ⁓ that they actually are lived values. And so ⁓ we each other to account for those things. We ⁓ demonstrate in our actions, particularly leaders, senior leaders across the organization. And we things out when people aren't living those values in a healthy respectful way.
Vincent Saunders: Mm hmm. yeah, I think it's a great insight and just kind of maybe to turn on sort of the systems part of the conversation. Like we're talking about safety, talking about safety culture. There's going to be some systems in there. So in construction and other large organizations, they rely heavily on systems, controls and procedures. Sort of what at the end of the day, like what does good safety leadership actually look like in practice with all the systems behind it?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, it's funny because I, you know, we talk about systems, but I don't think people... And I didn't for a while naturally think that people are also part of the system. And so the system isn't just like the equipment, the policies, procedures, the tools, like your people are also part of that system. Because if you took them away, like, great, you've got this like procedure, you've got all this equipment, but you don't have anyone to operate it or to make that happen. so, yeah, if we think about like investing in our system, like making sure equipment's maintained, making sure our procedures are up to date, that our training, you know, reflects real world, we should also have the same amount of investment into our people as well, you know, so building their capability, supporting them, relationships with them, investing in them as well, they're equally, if not more important, cog of that ⁓ system. And so ⁓ think like, when I think about good safety leadership, And this is a model that you can Google, it's from Centus in Australia, their safety experience model. And so they talk about three key things, which is the physical, the psychological and the social environment. And so I think about those things as sort of essentially sort of for me, I think about them as a system. so much are we investing in the physical environment? you know, making sure that that, you know, the workplace is condoning healthy and safe behaviors from psychological perspective. like how much are we investing into designing work that is healthy, our ⁓ our procedures that support people's mental health are and we're asking for that feedback as well from our team. And then that social piece, so like what are relationships look like? What is ⁓ the between the team, the team harmony, the team culture? Like all of those sort of three things are, like if we invest in those three things, that's what would see good leadership. ⁓ We just invest in one, like, you know, people will be like, well, what's going on here? Like, you know, we've got all this fancy equipment and that's great, but like, God, my boss is so hard to talk to. He never calls me, doesn't ask me how I'm going. Like we barely have team meetings, you know, like you've got to sort of invest in all three of those things. It's not one or the other for me. Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, that was a great answer, think. how would say the best way to balance ⁓ accountability with trust is like cause you want to you talked a lot about getting sort of ⁓ ⁓ sort of self-assurance safety and sort of empowering the staff to do a great job and look after their own safety. But sort of where's the line between accountability and trust in sort of your experience?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, think trust is such a good indicator. If there was a really easy way to measure that as a safety performance, think we ⁓ made a lot of money. It's a hard one. ⁓ I think, yeah, accountability for me is...
Vincent Saunders: you
Benny Mathews: I guess it comes back to that like psychological piece in leadership, know, like how well is the role clarity defined for people? know, how clear is it around what they're responsible for and what their remit is versus someone that just needs to be informed or consulted. ⁓ so I think if your team doesn't have role clarity, then it's really hard to hold people to account. But that also creates like psychosocial hazards, know, like if I'm not clear what my ⁓ are or my accountability are, and I'm waiting for you to do this. but you're waiting for me, like then that just creates issues. And so I think accountability, it's yeah, really clear on the role clarity, who's responsible for what, who to escalate things to if there is an issue. then that's when the trust component comes in. And so ⁓ can have really clear accountability and, you know, guidelines and position descriptions. But things aren't, you know, going to plan, if I'm falling behind on my KPIs or the things that I'm accountable for, that we have low trust, it's unlikely that I'm going to speak up you or and let you know those things or worse, you know, I'll just say that everything's fine. then we miss those deadlines or, you know, that doesn't get done. so I think, yeah, it's one of those ones where I'm probably talking like a politician, but you kind of like, yeah, you need both equally, I think. And ⁓ I'll say if your hand on heart trust for me is probably ⁓ the important one. You know, I've been in teams where, you know, there hasn't been great role clarity, but we've got good trust and good teamwork and connection. And so.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: Sometimes that does help and whilst we figure out the role clarity piece But yeah, I think if you don't have good trust, you're not gonna hear about you know, if we're falling behind KPIs or Things aren't going to on track or the off track You need that to also be able to hold people account but also to support them as well You know, so your role is not just holding people to account and making sure they get the job done is to support them So if they do speak up and say there's roadblocks these issues here I don't have enough resource or this has landed on me last and it's going to impact this. You need those conversations that you can help shift the accountability goals or workshop that with your team to understand that more rather than just, yeah, why have you missed this? Why haven't you done this? ⁓
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, and then like you said, you can't lean on any of your team. It's just a finger pointing exercise at the end of the day and then kind of lose that team culture as well. Sweet, well, just going through a little bit of maybe personal perspective, of changing tact a little bit, like working a national level in safety and risk carries a lot of responsibility. You talked about your day to day and all the things you've got going on. You touched on it earlier on, but sort of ⁓ specifically,
Benny Mathews: Mmm.
Vincent Saunders: How has your own leadership mindset evolved over time? And sort of any examples or anything that you do now to either sort of help with pressure or help with stress or yeah, sort of what have you learned and evolved over your time?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, great question. I probably, I feel like the biggest thing for me is that you, when you're a leader, your leadership. style has to adapt. And so you can't just be like a one trick pony almost like, you know, on your team and who's in your team, ⁓ sort of have to take on different leadership styles. So if I think about my team, ⁓ a wide range of experience there, you know, we've got some really great people that could take my role when I, you know, go to something else. ⁓ then there's other people that ⁓ brand new, like I was 20 years ago. So ⁓ have different needs, they need, they require different leadership styles. So ⁓ know, the people that are more experienced, ⁓ check in with them, but they don't need hand holding, they don't need micromanaging. ⁓ don't like that word, but you know, like close support supervision. Whereas ones that agree, you and the team, yeah, they need more support, more guidance, more checking in. And so your leadership style just has to change based on the needs of your team. And ⁓ that's like the, not the biggest learning, but it's probably been the one that with me the most is like, yeah, tailoring my style. can't just be, you know, one ⁓ size fits for everyone. You really got to understand your team, where they're at on that journey. the more experienced ones, know, sometimes if they've been given a project that they've never done before, or this is outside of their comfort zone, you might need to lean in more ⁓ more check-ins, more support than you normally would. ⁓ so I think, yeah, the key for me is like trying to understand your team at a deeper level to understand like what leadership style is going to be best for them. And it's not about you changing as a person. Like you still stay the same. ⁓ I Like I don't change at all. but behaviours, those check-ins, those follow-ups that support changes on what's going on for them.
Vincent Saunders: How do you personally, ⁓ again, talking about a lot of your role, a lot of pressure there, how you personally manage pressure or ⁓ fatigue ⁓ your work at the moment?
Benny Mathews: Mm. Yeah, this is such a great question. I've been thinking about that a lot actually. I think sometimes... ⁓ You know, like I, everyone is a human, right? And I can say like, ⁓ you should do all of this. it's like exercise, healthy eating, journaling, mindfulness, talking, and like, that's great. and it does help definitely. but it doesn't take it away. So like the pressure is still there. The stress is still there, particularly if you're leading a project or, there's tight deadlines, but I think those things do help. And so, ⁓ it helps you, you know, stay ⁓ calm, composed those moments. So yeah, you can acknowledge that. there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of stress that. ⁓ then keeping to those habits of, how do I make sure I can support myself through this stressful time? as long as that sort of doesn't go on for too long, like if that's your every day and it has been for months and months, then there's probably something there around the work design that's not right that, yeah, you probably need to look at that. But every now and then, you know, there'll be projects that come up that put a bit of additional pressure on us. And, ⁓ know, I think that's also healthy as well. And yeah, like I said, unless it goes on for too long. And so I think like it's up to the individual. ⁓ So those things work well for me. just make a conscious effort to make sure I always do something active today, try and connect with my family. The little things that, you know, keep me like physically and mentally healthy and well. But I'll acknowledge like sometimes like that doesn't always help. know, like if I, there's something else, you know, like the stressful project at work or, ⁓ you that's quite big and then something happens. outside of work. ⁓ You know, if I think about last year, my dog passed away right in the middle of this project and I was coping well with the pressure and stress of the project until that happened and then it was just all a bit too much. And so I found like having someone at work that you can openly talk to about those things, just to like vent, get things off your chest, share the frustration or share how you're feeling is super helpful. I also really love the Māori Te Whare Tapawha model. So when you are feeling like stress or your wellbeing is a little bit impacted by ⁓ these things work or in your personal life, like leaning into that model and going, hey, where am I perhaps not investing enough? it my spiritual? Is it my physical well-being? Is it my mental well-being? Is it my whanau, family, social stuff? I find just thinking about that concept ⁓ me, I actually, yeah, I haven't spoken to my grandparents in two weeks, and that would probably make me feel a lot better if I did that. Or actually, yeah, this week I've been pretty average with going to the gym and walking, and that's probably contributing to my resilience around how I can handle this. So ⁓ for me is like a nice way to just check in on those things that, you even though it's a Māori worldview of model, like we can all connect to those things ⁓ in own way and sort of
Vincent Saunders: Hmm.
Benny Mathews: where have I not invested enough in my own well-being or my own... yeah, to whare tapafart.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, that's great. It's kind of just like self-awareness. if you're, yeah, for me, it's like if you've had a stressful day, it's taking, know, of the time everyone's exhausted after the end of their day, no matter what they do. They're tired. They don't want to, they're sitting on the couch. They don't want to get up and go to the gym or go for a run or something. But ⁓ just trying to, you know, maybe not look at the phone for a few seconds, feel you're feeling.
Benny Mathews: Hmm.
Vincent Saunders: you know, listen to your mind, listen to your body, and then most of the time it's, okay, if I just maybe go for a five minute walk, that will turn into a minute walk or something like that. For me, it's the hardest part is just obviously getting started at the end of a long day or a long week or.
Benny Mathews: Yeah. Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: long month or long year. you were sort of ⁓ a couple more questions some advice for leaders. So if you were maybe was listening right now, they were a site manager or project lead or a safety professional listening wanting to learn one habit that improves safety culture, ⁓ one leadership behavior that reduces risk or one thing leaders stop doing like one of ⁓ what one would you want to try and unpack or give any guidance on.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I think one habit that I think is really helpful is just consistency. So particularly like as a leader or project leader, site manager, safety professional, like consistency there. I don't say that in terms of like... getting it right 100 % of the time, know, like that's just impossible. Like we make mistakes, like own them when we do. ⁓ I think, yeah, just consistency. Like if we say ⁓ is the way that we're gonna do things, ⁓ we're consistent with that. And build those habits, build that discipline by being consistent. if it's, ⁓ you every time we ⁓ come site, we have a pre-start and we talk about the work and what's involved in, you ⁓ what the team think about that? Any issues, any roadblocks, any challenges? Like when that's a key part of starting our day. the consistency to discipline to that, because that sets up the whole day. As soon as we go, like we're running behind or I got stuck in traffic. So we'll just skip the pre-start. know, like the steam team start to think like, ⁓ how important is this? Like, does that mean that it's okay if I miss the next one? You know? So I know if that's the best example, but like from a, ⁓ just a consistency point of view, like, yeah, if it's always wearing your high vis on site, then you need to, you know, consistently do that. If it's always reporting hazards. or speaking up when things aren't great, like consistency in that as well. And yeah, when we do slip up, like owning that as well, being like, yeah, sorry, I shouldn't have, I should have spoken up or I didn't follow that this time. I think one leadership behavior that can reduce risk is really that relationship piece. And so connecting with the frontline, really understanding the challenges they face and using that 4D model to really understand the operational challenges, that's going to help you manage risk or reduce risk. you're ⁓ far removed from the frontline and what they're experiencing, like how can you really reduce risk ⁓ you don't understand the context or those frustrations the things that get in the way? And then one thing leaders should stop doing. is asking whose fault is this? Like I think that's just the worst question ever. We love that and I think we're driven, like that's driven by the media and like the political environment, you know, like we want to point a finger at everyone and find someone to blame that makes us feel better that there's an outcome, there's justice, but like I don't really know if it fixes anything. I struggle with that. And ⁓ with incidents when they happen, you know, like we should just be asking, ⁓ know, like ⁓ happened? Like who needs support? What can we learn from this rather than, yeah, who did that or who's at fault to blame? Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, great. I think that's a great last point. some great insights there. ⁓ right, a couple. So we do a little quick fire round. So I've just got five questions here to end with. ⁓ yeah, I most most of the time, I kind of know maybe what people will answer this first one on, but I actually don't know with you. So are you coffee or tea?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I'm a cappuccino with oat milk. And I used to crack up because I feel like that's like such a, you know, like oat milk. But these days, whenever I go into a cafe, like the amount of tradies that come in and they're like a soy latte or a mocha with oat milk, I'm like, yeah, this is just normal now. I don't need to feel ashamed about that.
Vincent Saunders: Okay. Yeah, like I have soy milk now. I don't have dairy anymore because I'm convinced it affects my asthma. So I stopped having dairy milk like years ago and I think it's made it better. But yeah, we have soy, oat I love oat milk. It's great. ⁓ It's great. One mindset leader needs in a high risk environment.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, same, same. Yeah, think, yeah, particularly construction like that is high risk, you know, and I think not just from like a physical perspective, physical safety perspective in terms of the dangers on site. But I think saw some stats the other week around just the number of suicides in construction and poor mental health. so ⁓ thing, sort of regardless of whether it's high risk or not, I think all leaders should have that sense of like unease. Like you should never feel really satisfied with safety. You should always be thinking like, what am I missing? Or, you know, like what are this, the early signs that something things not quite right, like how connected am I to that? How much or stories am I getting that's making not feel confident, but helping me understand like, have we got everything? Are we missing anything? We should just be constantly asking ourselves that because from one to the next, things can change so dramatically. And if we ⁓ think, ⁓ we've got safety sorted and we've got good controls and processes. The next day can be so different and the next week can be so different because our environment changes, like things happen to our people, new people start, people go. And so I think, yeah, for leaders, would just be that chronic unease, like constantly asking yourself, are we missing anything? What could go wrong here?
Vincent Saunders: OK, great. Biggest myth about safety.
Benny Mathews: that zero injuries ⁓ ⁓ safety performance. I think that's something that is big estimate.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Best way for yourself to reset after a high pressure day.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, well, I used to be going for a run with my dog, but that not that at all. So no running, but I do play still play a little bit of netball and I find that, yeah, 60 minutes on the court where I don't have to think about any emails, like ⁓ any meetings, just have to focus on passing and catching a ball is like just so therapeutic for me. It just takes me out of the whole world for, yeah, 60 minutes. And I find that super relaxing.
Vincent Saunders: Sorry. And I think playing a little bit of netball is an understatement obviously because like, don't you represent, I'm pretty sure I saw like a post, don't you represent New Zealand in the mixed indoor netball team or something? what's the, yeah, like how is that for you? That's the biggest understatement, I play a little bit of netball.
Benny Mathews: Thanks you Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it. Sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, God, like, you know, we're talking about like pressure and stress here. I feel like I definitely contribute to a lot of that for myself, trying to, you know, do this job, but also play like semi-professional netball plus study a degree. I don't know why I do this stuff, but yeah, I I've been lucky enough to represent New Zealand and sort of, yeah, tacked out of international duties now and just playing for the Mystics sort of club semi-professional netball. But yeah, like I, if I didn't have that, ⁓ I'd probably bit crazy I think so yeah it's a big part of my life.
Vincent Saunders: One thing you wish more people understood about risk and leadership.
Benny Mathews: I would say that they're both about people. yeah, risk is about people and how people interact with their environment with each other. And leadership is about, yeah, how well you understand those people ⁓ connect with them and engage. so I think, yeah, if I... If more leaders could understand that, for risk to be managed well and for safety to go well, really about your people. Like you can have fancy equipment and all the best policies and procedures and smart looking documents, but yeah, how well do you know your people and how they experience safety in your organization or their experience of work and how well do you ask them questions? How well do you check in? How much do you listen rather than talk to? ⁓ I think me, it's your understanding that those two
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: things really about people.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, and if the sort of final question, if listeners take one thing away from this conversation, what would that be? Or what would you want that to be?
Benny Mathews: think yes. If there's leaders listening here, think be kind to yourself. Like leadership is a tough gig, not for everyone. And always open to learning, right? Like I think it's a journey that we go on and ⁓ I've so much about leadership ⁓ from that I've worked with, from reading podcasts, from experiences. And then, you know, there's also courses that you can do that I think real experience is probably the biggest one. you know, I mistakes all time. not perfect. And I think it's a reminder that leadership comes with huge responsibility and you have to be really kind to yourself on this journey as well.
Vincent Saunders: Great, well, thanks so much for sharing your experience and insights, Ben. it's been a powerful reminder that safety, risk and performance all back to leadership and mindset. Like, is there anything you wanted to touch on before we close for that one?
Benny Mathews: No, just yeah, hey, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this and also open to hearing other people's journeys as well. And ⁓ also find that super interesting. I think, regardless of what industry you're in, whether it's construction or you're selling socks and toys at Kmart, we all face the same challenges. We have the potential for people to get hurt. We still the potential for things to go wrong. And so just because you're one industry doesn't mean you can't take lessons from another and vice versa. the more we sort of broaden and connect and share the challenges that we're facing and how we've overcome them, or the ideas for that I think the safer New Zealand will be.
Vincent Saunders: Great. And sorry if anyone wants to get in contact with you, how's the best way to get in contact with you,
Benny Mathews: Yeah, on LinkedIn is probably the easiest one, but also, yeah, you can directly email me
Vincent Saunders: Great. Well, yeah, it's been a pleasure having you and great to see you again after such a long, time.
Benny Mathews: I'm good, long time no see, good to see you.
Vincent Saunders: That's good. Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on. Are you in Auckland or Melbourne at the moment? I was a bit confused by that.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, know I that throws it off everyone because I think we weren't on our LinkedIn and he says like Kmart Target Australia, but yeah, I'm based here in Auckland for now.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, okay, cool. Okay, for now, okay, sweet. And yeah, so just to, I guess, just to get us started off, can you give us a bit of a background your career journey ⁓ how you ended up working across health and safety and risk at a national level?
Benny Mathews: definitely, I would definitely describe it as a journey. I ⁓ while I was at school with yourself, had a part-time job at Bunnings, just working there on the weekends to pay for petrol and things like that. And while I was there, I joined the safety committee for the store that I was working in and just did a couple of things through there. Managed to meet, who's now one of good friends, Louise Speed, who was the safety manager for Bunnings at the time. And she just had a chat to her about some safety stuff that was happening on site and some ideas and things. And she asked me if I'd be keen to come in and do some, know, help with some projects in the national space. And I thought, yeah, why not? Like some extra hours, extra money, why not? And so I really enjoyed that, really liked working in that team. And then sort of got to the end of my uni degree, doing a teaching degree and kind of yeah, I don't really think this is for me. Like, it sounded good. All my friends are doing this, but... After my last 20 week practicum, I was like, nah, I don't think this is right for me. And at the time Bunnings had created a new role for managing work related injuries and asked me if I'd be keen to do that. So I put my hand up and said, yeah, why not? Like brand new role, get to shape it myself. And that yeah, gosh, that's a few years ago now. ⁓ But that my first role in a safety team. And ⁓ since then just become really curious about. Yeah, safety within organizations and why people choose to things the way they do, what influences that from a leadership culture process point of view. ⁓ I just sort of, yeah, taken opportunities as they've come my way. you I ⁓ like say worked hard as well, you know, and had fun. But yeah, of moved across Australia to the UK in different safety roles and then back here to New Zealand, ⁓ working for Group.
Vincent Saunders: Cool. And so yeah, well, we were all at school, you're working hard and developing your skills to take them to the next level and here we are. So we're all kicking around at school and you had a part-time job. yeah, good for you. Well, we were all doing nothing. Anyway, so yeah, just to give us a bit of a background on what you're doing currently. What does your current role look like day to day at the moment?
Benny Mathews: Ha! Yeah, ⁓ my role is actually quite broad because I'm working across Kmart Target. That's all the stores, distribution centers, supply chain, and our national offices, and also supporting our new stores over in the Philippines, the Anco stores there. So my day-to-day is just extremely varied. You can imagine the sort of risk profile across all of those different business units and sort of projects that come So we actually just rolled ⁓ out implemented eco portal. So a new safety management, injury management, risk management system across all of those sites. So ⁓ prior to that, we had about eight different systems which made data collection and reporting really confusing for everyone. massive project to bring that all into one place, giving team members access their fingertips for tools that they need around safety, but also to report things, to manage an injury, to check in. Then outside of ⁓ projects like huge ones, ⁓ supporting
Vincent Saunders: Mm-hmm.
Benny Mathews: the team with implementing critical risk. So critical risk controls, lots of reporting, obviously across our organization, right up to Wes Farmer's board level. And also have a team that our Space support team, which is where our sites can contact for sort of low level triage advice. So where do I find this form or what training is for this, or can you help me with something? ⁓ That sort of like a call center for our 450 stores to reach up and get advice. And then outside of that, like, run a whole lot of facilitated workshops, training sessions across the organisation on lots of different topics to help build capability across our leadership teams.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, well, it sounds like a very, very broad and very intense role. ⁓ Yeah, like how do you, yeah, how has that changed obviously from now till when you first started at, know, at the business you're working in, like what is, what are you doing now than maybe what wasn't there?
Benny Mathews: Mm. I think about like when I first at that was my first foray into safety. And, you know, we were reporting things on like a of paper and putting them in a filing cabinet. And I don't know, ever know what happened to those things. But even think about like some of my own behaviours and the things that I did ⁓ at age when I was working and yeah, a lot more risk taking and ⁓ safety wasn't necessarily like front of mind for me personally. it wasn't sort of until I got into the safety and wellbeing team that I really started to think differently about this. And back then I was just always ⁓ interested around behavior and like the psychology element of it. ⁓ just really, there was in that that just really lit a fire for me or really wanted to lean into. ⁓ I was... less interested in the compliance. So the legislation, the rules, the guidelines, like that just seemed really like boring to me. And I also could see that that didn't resonate very well for people on the frontline as well. my curiosity was always in that space. Like, how can we make this better? How do we ⁓ safety so people, ⁓ makes sense that we do it with them rather than to them. ⁓ can we simplify things? How do we make it easier to things safely? And so content like my mindset is still the same, like 20 years later, I'm still in that space, constantly challenging the organization to go, hey, where can we remove these roadblocks or silly rules that don't make sense or are a hindrance to the work? But how can we put things in place that actually help build capability, increase capacity, improve the chances of things going well? And so I think that's just like a continuous journey, like across every organization is at a different point in that stage.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: And we're wrestling with that all the time. And I think about sort of of the safety tools that we have out there at the moment, like standard operating procedures or ⁓ And I think, yeah, have we really shifted with the times there? Like I know, you know, way back when, like that made sense when your job was step one, step two, step three, step four, you followed a clear process like that. Here's a ⁓ that shows you how to do that safely. But our world is just so different now. ⁓ much more complex, so much more dynamic. Like it's impossible to have a procedure that covers everything to keep people safe. And so how do we move from like a rules-based sort of thinking to more risk-based where we empower our people to make decisions, give them the tools to do that. But don't get so hung up on having like this prescriptive document that tries to capture every single safety outcome or every single ⁓ possible risk. Like it's just, yeah, you're going to be chasing your tail for ever and you probably have thousands and thousands of pieces of paper trying to do that. So.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: much as I'd like to say it has changed in New Zealand, think ⁓ sort of slowly on that journey and ⁓ we get to that point where safety becomes more just a BAU, like we're empowering people to do it rather than telling them what to do.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, like I think it's kind of funny to talk about New Zealand maybe being like a little bit slightly behind like when I worked in the UK in construction, it kind of felt like New Zealand was maybe like five to 10 years maybe behind sort of what some of the some of the bigger projects are doing in the UK and like underground. Obviously the projects are bigger and obviously more complex, but their safety systems and the around people sort of safety for their own responsibility, like that seemed a little bit more common in the UK. Yeah, anyway, it's just a thought. your experience, what organizations often misunderstand about health and safety and risk?
Benny Mathews: ⁓ organizations misunderstanding. I think just perhaps having like a narrow view of safety and risk. And so trying to broaden their thinking ⁓ around what is risk? How do you measure safety performance? And I one of the narrow views is safety ⁓ Performance is measured by injury. So, you know more injuries means terrible safety performance less injury means good safety performance but Really like that's only just one metric right? Like there's so many if you think about your overall health and well-being you wouldn't just write your Well-being based on like how many beats your heart does per minute, right? Like there's so many other factors that tell you whether you're healthy or not And it's the same with safety performance like injury performance is just one that we can use but like you know, there's so many around engagement, around critical control performance, how much effort and energy is put into safety, what's the capacity or resources. And so it's trying to, I think, yeah, it's not necessarily misunderstanding health and safety, but it's just sort of broadening their minds there to go, hey, actually, there's a whole lot of data points out here. How do we get those to you in a meaningful way that tells you a story around really what's happening in your organization? Because... You could have zero injuries and think everything is great and your safety performance is awesome, but perhaps that's just people not feeling safe to speak up or not reporting those things. And so that can be a false sense of security, those numbers as well. So we need to broaden our perspective and our thinking around what data is actually going to be helpful for us to tell us whether we're performing well or there's some opportunities there.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, I think that's a super interesting insight because yeah, lot of construction companies, in particular, would just look at injuries per year and have like a have a rating per year and as long as that's dropping, that's like, hey, we're doing a great job here. It's super interesting, interesting thing to think about. Where do you see some of the biggest gaps between policies on paper and behaviors in reality? I know that's a pretty broad question, but yeah, gaps between, hey, you should be doing this, and then in behavior, they're like, what are those guys doing over there, or what are they doing over there? That's completely different.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I think the issue is because, well, the issue can be because it's people ⁓ myself that are in a national office role writing these policies and procedures, right? ⁓ I'm so far removed from the person that's actually doing the role, driving the forklift, picking that load or, know, driving that huge truck or crane or whatever it is. ⁓ So am I the best person to be writing that? ⁓ It might be because yeah, I've got a degree, whatever, and I can formally write those things, but does that really correspond or relate to the person on the front line? Are they the best people placed to know, okay, is the safest way to do that? How do I document that? And some things that I've seen really cool is where we, ⁓ personally, we try not to just sit behind a desk and write these things, but actually get out there.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: and understand those challenges, what gets in the way, like what slows work down, makes it difficult. And we've used a concept which we've sort of rebranded in our world called operational learning, it's based on the 4Ds framework. quite popular at the moment around, know, ⁓ people on the front line what's difficult, what's dangerous, what doesn't make sense, and what's dumb about the work that you do. ⁓ those four questions deliberately to really ⁓ open up a conversation with people on the front line to understand those challenges, and then listening and taking that back and going, okay, well, how can we improve our safety procedures, our controls, our training, how we plan work, how we communicate. It's really about, yeah, trying to bridge the gap between what happens in the ⁓ tower of the head office versus the front line. And yeah, what's that gap there that we can ⁓ and ⁓ by just talking, opening. asking open questions and then really listening and doing taking action on the back of that.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, like I think, I don't know, you said, talked about like the what in front of those, the four days and talked about open questions. Like I think of the, ⁓ conversations can be such close questions. Like is your day going well? Yes. ⁓ you had any health and safety injuries lately? No. ⁓ like, but the conversation should be a lot more broader around how you could work together as a collective to like, in my point of view, how can you... gather a team together to finish a project on site. Having those open questions really just opens the door to other insights and other people's perspective on things that you, the ivory tower, might not actually ⁓ what's happening down there. It's cool insight, I think.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, and you know, like those four questions are so easy to ask and, you know, like they're really easy to remember as well. Like it's just four D's and the conversation that opens up, well, what can, you know, come out of those conversations is so much gold. And, you know, it does rely on the relationship. Like we couldn't just have, you know,
Vincent Saunders: Yeah. Mm.
Benny Mathews: a top level manager go into a store that has never talked to that team before and expect to have this really psychologically safe and open conversation. and so you still do ⁓ to have some sort of level of respect and relationship and trust there because ⁓ people are going to really start talking about what's dumb, what's difficult. They need to know that they're sharing that with someone that will listen, not judge, not try to justify or explain their way around why we do something. It's really, ⁓ conversations really is about not so much you talking, ⁓ you listening to the the front line and then thinking about, well, this is, whether you agree with it or not, this is their lived experience. This is what they're saying. And so it's up to us to then absorb that and reflect on that and go, okay, what can we do differently to help the messaging there or the understanding there or changing the way we plan that work or design that work? Because the experience, whether we believe it or not, that's what they're feeling, you know? ⁓ So those questions I think are really helpful. And yeah, they are open questions deliberately so that, you know, you're not just getting yes or no.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: nods,
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, hopefully. It's quite good. You talked about a lot of the pressure, sort of a lot of things going on in our life at the moment, like very, very complex lives, juggling multiple things at the moment. A lot of incidents don't come from, potentially don't come from lack of knowledge, they come from maybe a poor decision was made under pressure or something else going on in someone's life that influences them to maybe take a shortcut or do something a little bit quicker. do you see mindset influencing risks ⁓ behaviours on a daily basis or from ⁓ where working at moment?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, a really good question. think it's quite, you know, like you can answer that from many angles, you know, like if I think about our team ⁓ ⁓ situation, our team in stores, sometimes they will make a decision or behave in a certain way because ⁓ of their innate values, like the things that are really important to them. if I think, for example, like we have a rule that says, you you don't detain a customer or don't try and grab their bag. You can, you know, ask them to look in their bag and, you know, check their receipt and everything. But our role is to not, we're not the police. shouldn't be, you know, tackling people to the ground or ⁓ to stop them from leaving the store because you just never know what weapons they might have or how that's going to go. But for some people, ⁓ they really strong values around, you know, injustice in the world.
Vincent Saunders: Mm-hmm.
Benny Mathews: And so when they see things that, you know, clash with those values, they help but step in and, you know, potentially try and de-escalate ⁓ a between someone else or, ⁓ you they're seeing wrong in the world and they want to take the right action. so, ⁓ you being mindful that, that people have those values, but also when you are with Kmart Group, we've also got our own values as well. And so how do we get, make sure that our rules are really clear that, you ⁓
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: there's reasons why we don't step in or we don't do those things. So acknowledge that you know, have really strong values around this and you don't like to see the injustice in the world, but hey, whilst you're at work, this is what you can do about that. So instead of grabbing the trolley that you can use the body worn cameras, you can call for help, you can call security, like these are the tools available whilst you're at work to do that. can't control what you do outside of work. So if you see something, you know, on the footy field or something like that, like ⁓ handle that however you want to. ⁓ whilst you're at work, like there's certain ways of that we can help support you manage that when because we agree we don't want to see these things happen either but there's proper ways so that you don't get hurt that others don't get hurt so I find like ⁓ know thinking about that binary term of like was that a good decision or a poor decision you know I think people always make decisions based on the information they had at the time in the context and so you know I always try and think to myself like yeah Perhaps that does sound like a poor decision. You're like, why would you do that? Why would you stand in front of that person that's got a weapon or try and grab that trolley when they're three times bigger than you? But I have to remind myself that like in the moment, in the context of what was happening with the emotion, the noise, all the people around like that felt like the right decision for that person at the time. And, you know, there's no, I don't really see too much point in punishing those people because, you know, if they do get hurt or if they are involved in something like, is that not punishment enough? And I think, you know, most people would learn from that next time and be like, okay, well next time, know, I'm probably not going to go up against that person that's three times bigger than me or near that person with a weapon because hopefully they've learnt from that and how do we support them after those events.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah. do you kind of align values if maybe someone has different values? ⁓
Benny Mathews: Yeah, and I mean, that's gonna happen all the time, you know, like, we've got, I think, almost 50,000 team members across our organization. And whilst I would love to say like, yeah, everyone, like, we all have the same values, like, well, what a boring place to work that would be, you know, if that was the case. And so I think it's important that there's like diversity there, you might have different values and...
Vincent Saunders: Yeah.
Benny Mathews: some of your values might have higher weighting than perhaps other ones. Ultimately, like we should be aligned, you should be able to see yourself in this organization, those values connect with you. If not, you know, naturally, if that was me, I'd be asking, ⁓ maybe this isn't the right place for me, you know, like, I feel like there's conflict here between our values. You know, the way, you know, things play out here wouldn't ⁓ not not for me and vice versa, you know, the, ⁓ the organization also be like, hey, your, your values or how you're behaving don't align with us and so there's a conversation there. But I think when you're this large, like you're always going to have that sort of tension between ⁓ And so I think for us, it's making sure those values are not just a slogan or, you know, a screensaver or wallpaper on a team's background, ⁓ that they actually are lived values. And so ⁓ we each other to account for those things. We ⁓ demonstrate in our actions, particularly leaders, senior leaders across the organization. And we things out when people aren't living those values in a healthy respectful way.
Vincent Saunders: Mm hmm. yeah, I think it's a great insight and just kind of maybe to turn on sort of the systems part of the conversation. Like we're talking about safety, talking about safety culture. There's going to be some systems in there. So in construction and other large organizations, they rely heavily on systems, controls and procedures. Sort of what at the end of the day, like what does good safety leadership actually look like in practice with all the systems behind it?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, it's funny because I, you know, we talk about systems, but I don't think people... And I didn't for a while naturally think that people are also part of the system. And so the system isn't just like the equipment, the policies, procedures, the tools, like your people are also part of that system. Because if you took them away, like, great, you've got this like procedure, you've got all this equipment, but you don't have anyone to operate it or to make that happen. so, yeah, if we think about like investing in our system, like making sure equipment's maintained, making sure our procedures are up to date, that our training, you know, reflects real world, we should also have the same amount of investment into our people as well, you know, so building their capability, supporting them, relationships with them, investing in them as well, they're equally, if not more important, cog of that ⁓ system. And so ⁓ think like, when I think about good safety leadership, And this is a model that you can Google, it's from Centus in Australia, their safety experience model. And so they talk about three key things, which is the physical, the psychological and the social environment. And so I think about those things as sort of essentially sort of for me, I think about them as a system. so much are we investing in the physical environment? you know, making sure that that, you know, the workplace is condoning healthy and safe behaviors from psychological perspective. like how much are we investing into designing work that is healthy, our ⁓ our procedures that support people's mental health are and we're asking for that feedback as well from our team. And then that social piece, so like what are relationships look like? What is ⁓ the between the team, the team harmony, the team culture? Like all of those sort of three things are, like if we invest in those three things, that's what would see good leadership. ⁓ We just invest in one, like, you know, people will be like, well, what's going on here? Like, you know, we've got all this fancy equipment and that's great, but like, God, my boss is so hard to talk to. He never calls me, doesn't ask me how I'm going. Like we barely have team meetings, you know, like you've got to sort of invest in all three of those things. It's not one or the other for me. Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, that was a great answer, think. how would say the best way to balance ⁓ accountability with trust is like cause you want to you talked a lot about getting sort of ⁓ ⁓ sort of self-assurance safety and sort of empowering the staff to do a great job and look after their own safety. But sort of where's the line between accountability and trust in sort of your experience?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, think trust is such a good indicator. If there was a really easy way to measure that as a safety performance, think we ⁓ made a lot of money. It's a hard one. ⁓ I think, yeah, accountability for me is...
Vincent Saunders: you
Benny Mathews: I guess it comes back to that like psychological piece in leadership, know, like how well is the role clarity defined for people? know, how clear is it around what they're responsible for and what their remit is versus someone that just needs to be informed or consulted. ⁓ so I think if your team doesn't have role clarity, then it's really hard to hold people to account. But that also creates like psychosocial hazards, know, like if I'm not clear what my ⁓ are or my accountability are, and I'm waiting for you to do this. but you're waiting for me, like then that just creates issues. And so I think accountability, it's yeah, really clear on the role clarity, who's responsible for what, who to escalate things to if there is an issue. then that's when the trust component comes in. And so ⁓ can have really clear accountability and, you know, guidelines and position descriptions. But things aren't, you know, going to plan, if I'm falling behind on my KPIs or the things that I'm accountable for, that we have low trust, it's unlikely that I'm going to speak up you or and let you know those things or worse, you know, I'll just say that everything's fine. then we miss those deadlines or, you know, that doesn't get done. so I think, yeah, it's one of those ones where I'm probably talking like a politician, but you kind of like, yeah, you need both equally, I think. And ⁓ I'll say if your hand on heart trust for me is probably ⁓ the important one. You know, I've been in teams where, you know, there hasn't been great role clarity, but we've got good trust and good teamwork and connection. And so.
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: Sometimes that does help and whilst we figure out the role clarity piece But yeah, I think if you don't have good trust, you're not gonna hear about you know, if we're falling behind KPIs or Things aren't going to on track or the off track You need that to also be able to hold people account but also to support them as well You know, so your role is not just holding people to account and making sure they get the job done is to support them So if they do speak up and say there's roadblocks these issues here I don't have enough resource or this has landed on me last and it's going to impact this. You need those conversations that you can help shift the accountability goals or workshop that with your team to understand that more rather than just, yeah, why have you missed this? Why haven't you done this? ⁓
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, and then like you said, you can't lean on any of your team. It's just a finger pointing exercise at the end of the day and then kind of lose that team culture as well. Sweet, well, just going through a little bit of maybe personal perspective, of changing tact a little bit, like working a national level in safety and risk carries a lot of responsibility. You talked about your day to day and all the things you've got going on. You touched on it earlier on, but sort of ⁓ specifically,
Benny Mathews: Mmm.
Vincent Saunders: How has your own leadership mindset evolved over time? And sort of any examples or anything that you do now to either sort of help with pressure or help with stress or yeah, sort of what have you learned and evolved over your time?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, great question. I probably, I feel like the biggest thing for me is that you, when you're a leader, your leadership. style has to adapt. And so you can't just be like a one trick pony almost like, you know, on your team and who's in your team, ⁓ sort of have to take on different leadership styles. So if I think about my team, ⁓ a wide range of experience there, you know, we've got some really great people that could take my role when I, you know, go to something else. ⁓ then there's other people that ⁓ brand new, like I was 20 years ago. So ⁓ have different needs, they need, they require different leadership styles. So ⁓ know, the people that are more experienced, ⁓ check in with them, but they don't need hand holding, they don't need micromanaging. ⁓ don't like that word, but you know, like close support supervision. Whereas ones that agree, you and the team, yeah, they need more support, more guidance, more checking in. And so your leadership style just has to change based on the needs of your team. And ⁓ that's like the, not the biggest learning, but it's probably been the one that with me the most is like, yeah, tailoring my style. can't just be, you know, one ⁓ size fits for everyone. You really got to understand your team, where they're at on that journey. the more experienced ones, know, sometimes if they've been given a project that they've never done before, or this is outside of their comfort zone, you might need to lean in more ⁓ more check-ins, more support than you normally would. ⁓ so I think, yeah, the key for me is like trying to understand your team at a deeper level to understand like what leadership style is going to be best for them. And it's not about you changing as a person. Like you still stay the same. ⁓ I Like I don't change at all. but behaviours, those check-ins, those follow-ups that support changes on what's going on for them.
Vincent Saunders: How do you personally, ⁓ again, talking about a lot of your role, a lot of pressure there, how you personally manage pressure or ⁓ fatigue ⁓ your work at the moment?
Benny Mathews: Mm. Yeah, this is such a great question. I've been thinking about that a lot actually. I think sometimes... ⁓ You know, like I, everyone is a human, right? And I can say like, ⁓ you should do all of this. it's like exercise, healthy eating, journaling, mindfulness, talking, and like, that's great. and it does help definitely. but it doesn't take it away. So like the pressure is still there. The stress is still there, particularly if you're leading a project or, there's tight deadlines, but I think those things do help. And so, ⁓ it helps you, you know, stay ⁓ calm, composed those moments. So yeah, you can acknowledge that. there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of stress that. ⁓ then keeping to those habits of, how do I make sure I can support myself through this stressful time? as long as that sort of doesn't go on for too long, like if that's your every day and it has been for months and months, then there's probably something there around the work design that's not right that, yeah, you probably need to look at that. But every now and then, you know, there'll be projects that come up that put a bit of additional pressure on us. And, ⁓ know, I think that's also healthy as well. And yeah, like I said, unless it goes on for too long. And so I think like it's up to the individual. ⁓ So those things work well for me. just make a conscious effort to make sure I always do something active today, try and connect with my family. The little things that, you know, keep me like physically and mentally healthy and well. But I'll acknowledge like sometimes like that doesn't always help. know, like if I, there's something else, you know, like the stressful project at work or, ⁓ you that's quite big and then something happens. outside of work. ⁓ You know, if I think about last year, my dog passed away right in the middle of this project and I was coping well with the pressure and stress of the project until that happened and then it was just all a bit too much. And so I found like having someone at work that you can openly talk to about those things, just to like vent, get things off your chest, share the frustration or share how you're feeling is super helpful. I also really love the Māori Te Whare Tapawha model. So when you are feeling like stress or your wellbeing is a little bit impacted by ⁓ these things work or in your personal life, like leaning into that model and going, hey, where am I perhaps not investing enough? it my spiritual? Is it my physical well-being? Is it my mental well-being? Is it my whanau, family, social stuff? I find just thinking about that concept ⁓ me, I actually, yeah, I haven't spoken to my grandparents in two weeks, and that would probably make me feel a lot better if I did that. Or actually, yeah, this week I've been pretty average with going to the gym and walking, and that's probably contributing to my resilience around how I can handle this. So ⁓ for me is like a nice way to just check in on those things that, you even though it's a Māori worldview of model, like we can all connect to those things ⁓ in own way and sort of
Vincent Saunders: Hmm.
Benny Mathews: where have I not invested enough in my own well-being or my own... yeah, to whare tapafart.
Vincent Saunders: Yeah, that's great. It's kind of just like self-awareness. if you're, yeah, for me, it's like if you've had a stressful day, it's taking, know, of the time everyone's exhausted after the end of their day, no matter what they do. They're tired. They don't want to, they're sitting on the couch. They don't want to get up and go to the gym or go for a run or something. But ⁓ just trying to, you know, maybe not look at the phone for a few seconds, feel you're feeling.
Benny Mathews: Hmm.
Vincent Saunders: you know, listen to your mind, listen to your body, and then most of the time it's, okay, if I just maybe go for a five minute walk, that will turn into a minute walk or something like that. For me, it's the hardest part is just obviously getting started at the end of a long day or a long week or.
Benny Mathews: Yeah. Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: long month or long year. you were sort of ⁓ a couple more questions some advice for leaders. So if you were maybe was listening right now, they were a site manager or project lead or a safety professional listening wanting to learn one habit that improves safety culture, ⁓ one leadership behavior that reduces risk or one thing leaders stop doing like one of ⁓ what one would you want to try and unpack or give any guidance on.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I think one habit that I think is really helpful is just consistency. So particularly like as a leader or project leader, site manager, safety professional, like consistency there. I don't say that in terms of like... getting it right 100 % of the time, know, like that's just impossible. Like we make mistakes, like own them when we do. ⁓ I think, yeah, just consistency. Like if we say ⁓ is the way that we're gonna do things, ⁓ we're consistent with that. And build those habits, build that discipline by being consistent. if it's, ⁓ you every time we ⁓ come site, we have a pre-start and we talk about the work and what's involved in, you ⁓ what the team think about that? Any issues, any roadblocks, any challenges? Like when that's a key part of starting our day. the consistency to discipline to that, because that sets up the whole day. As soon as we go, like we're running behind or I got stuck in traffic. So we'll just skip the pre-start. know, like the steam team start to think like, ⁓ how important is this? Like, does that mean that it's okay if I miss the next one? You know? So I know if that's the best example, but like from a, ⁓ just a consistency point of view, like, yeah, if it's always wearing your high vis on site, then you need to, you know, consistently do that. If it's always reporting hazards. or speaking up when things aren't great, like consistency in that as well. And yeah, when we do slip up, like owning that as well, being like, yeah, sorry, I shouldn't have, I should have spoken up or I didn't follow that this time. I think one leadership behavior that can reduce risk is really that relationship piece. And so connecting with the frontline, really understanding the challenges they face and using that 4D model to really understand the operational challenges, that's going to help you manage risk or reduce risk. you're ⁓ far removed from the frontline and what they're experiencing, like how can you really reduce risk ⁓ you don't understand the context or those frustrations the things that get in the way? And then one thing leaders should stop doing. is asking whose fault is this? Like I think that's just the worst question ever. We love that and I think we're driven, like that's driven by the media and like the political environment, you know, like we want to point a finger at everyone and find someone to blame that makes us feel better that there's an outcome, there's justice, but like I don't really know if it fixes anything. I struggle with that. And ⁓ with incidents when they happen, you know, like we should just be asking, ⁓ know, like ⁓ happened? Like who needs support? What can we learn from this rather than, yeah, who did that or who's at fault to blame? Yeah.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, great. I think that's a great last point. some great insights there. ⁓ right, a couple. So we do a little quick fire round. So I've just got five questions here to end with. ⁓ yeah, I most most of the time, I kind of know maybe what people will answer this first one on, but I actually don't know with you. So are you coffee or tea?
Benny Mathews: Yeah, I'm a cappuccino with oat milk. And I used to crack up because I feel like that's like such a, you know, like oat milk. But these days, whenever I go into a cafe, like the amount of tradies that come in and they're like a soy latte or a mocha with oat milk, I'm like, yeah, this is just normal now. I don't need to feel ashamed about that.
Vincent Saunders: Okay. Yeah, like I have soy milk now. I don't have dairy anymore because I'm convinced it affects my asthma. So I stopped having dairy milk like years ago and I think it's made it better. But yeah, we have soy, oat I love oat milk. It's great. ⁓ It's great. One mindset leader needs in a high risk environment.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, same, same. Yeah, think, yeah, particularly construction like that is high risk, you know, and I think not just from like a physical perspective, physical safety perspective in terms of the dangers on site. But I think saw some stats the other week around just the number of suicides in construction and poor mental health. so ⁓ thing, sort of regardless of whether it's high risk or not, I think all leaders should have that sense of like unease. Like you should never feel really satisfied with safety. You should always be thinking like, what am I missing? Or, you know, like what are this, the early signs that something things not quite right, like how connected am I to that? How much or stories am I getting that's making not feel confident, but helping me understand like, have we got everything? Are we missing anything? We should just be constantly asking ourselves that because from one to the next, things can change so dramatically. And if we ⁓ think, ⁓ we've got safety sorted and we've got good controls and processes. The next day can be so different and the next week can be so different because our environment changes, like things happen to our people, new people start, people go. And so I think, yeah, for leaders, would just be that chronic unease, like constantly asking yourself, are we missing anything? What could go wrong here?
Vincent Saunders: OK, great. Biggest myth about safety.
Benny Mathews: that zero injuries ⁓ ⁓ safety performance. I think that's something that is big estimate.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah. Best way for yourself to reset after a high pressure day.
Benny Mathews: Yeah, well, I used to be going for a run with my dog, but that not that at all. So no running, but I do play still play a little bit of netball and I find that, yeah, 60 minutes on the court where I don't have to think about any emails, like ⁓ any meetings, just have to focus on passing and catching a ball is like just so therapeutic for me. It just takes me out of the whole world for, yeah, 60 minutes. And I find that super relaxing.
Vincent Saunders: Sorry. And I think playing a little bit of netball is an understatement obviously because like, don't you represent, I'm pretty sure I saw like a post, don't you represent New Zealand in the mixed indoor netball team or something? what's the, yeah, like how is that for you? That's the biggest understatement, I play a little bit of netball.
Benny Mathews: Thanks you Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it. Sometimes I look at myself and I'm like, God, like, you know, we're talking about like pressure and stress here. I feel like I definitely contribute to a lot of that for myself, trying to, you know, do this job, but also play like semi-professional netball plus study a degree. I don't know why I do this stuff, but yeah, I I've been lucky enough to represent New Zealand and sort of, yeah, tacked out of international duties now and just playing for the Mystics sort of club semi-professional netball. But yeah, like I, if I didn't have that, ⁓ I'd probably bit crazy I think so yeah it's a big part of my life.
Vincent Saunders: One thing you wish more people understood about risk and leadership.
Benny Mathews: I would say that they're both about people. yeah, risk is about people and how people interact with their environment with each other. And leadership is about, yeah, how well you understand those people ⁓ connect with them and engage. so I think, yeah, if I... If more leaders could understand that, for risk to be managed well and for safety to go well, really about your people. Like you can have fancy equipment and all the best policies and procedures and smart looking documents, but yeah, how well do you know your people and how they experience safety in your organization or their experience of work and how well do you ask them questions? How well do you check in? How much do you listen rather than talk to? ⁓ I think me, it's your understanding that those two
Vincent Saunders: Mm.
Benny Mathews: things really about people.
Vincent Saunders: Okay, and if the sort of final question, if listeners take one thing away from this conversation, what would that be? Or what would you want that to be?
Benny Mathews: think yes. If there's leaders listening here, think be kind to yourself. Like leadership is a tough gig, not for everyone. And always open to learning, right? Like I think it's a journey that we go on and ⁓ I've so much about leadership ⁓ from that I've worked with, from reading podcasts, from experiences. And then, you know, there's also courses that you can do that I think real experience is probably the biggest one. you know, I mistakes all time. not perfect. And I think it's a reminder that leadership comes with huge responsibility and you have to be really kind to yourself on this journey as well.
Vincent Saunders: Great, well, thanks so much for sharing your experience and insights, Ben. it's been a powerful reminder that safety, risk and performance all back to leadership and mindset. Like, is there anything you wanted to touch on before we close for that one?
Benny Mathews: No, just yeah, hey, thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed this and also open to hearing other people's journeys as well. And ⁓ also find that super interesting. I think, regardless of what industry you're in, whether it's construction or you're selling socks and toys at Kmart, we all face the same challenges. We have the potential for people to get hurt. We still the potential for things to go wrong. And so just because you're one industry doesn't mean you can't take lessons from another and vice versa. the more we sort of broaden and connect and share the challenges that we're facing and how we've overcome them, or the ideas for that I think the safer New Zealand will be.
Vincent Saunders: Great. And sorry if anyone wants to get in contact with you, how's the best way to get in contact with you,
Benny Mathews: Yeah, on LinkedIn is probably the easiest one, but also, yeah, you can directly email me
Vincent Saunders: Great. Well, yeah, it's been a pleasure having you and great to see you again after such a long, time.
