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Consider one another is a podcast focused on each other.
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Thank you for tuning in to this podcast that is all about stirring up love and good works in one another.
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Okay, welcome back to the Consider One Another podcast.
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It is a Sunday afternoon.
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It's kind of hot, says Daniel.
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But we're here in the conference room.
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Daniel, thank you so much for making the time for this.
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I've been looking forward to this.
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Yes, we have been.
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I think I said this when I talked with Emily, but the Reeves family was one that we were like most excited to spend time with.
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When we were moving out here driving, it's been a year now.
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About a year ago is when we started our drive.
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We were thinking about being friends with the Reeves.
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And last Sunday we're over there at your place playing games.
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This Sunday we're out recording podcasts.
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I'm really, really grateful to say.
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Yeah, these are some of my best friends.
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Cool, thank you.
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We were equally excited for you guys to come out after having met you on your earlier visit.
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So yeah, it was really short, the first visit.
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Yep.
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It was enough to be like, wow, I'm really excited.
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Daniel, let's just jump into scripture.
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I am in Hebrews 4.
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I'm gonna read Hebrews 4 verses 12 through 15.
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I will just read the scripture, and then you jump in with any thoughts you have.
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Sound good?
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Sounds great.
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For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
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And there is no creature hidden from his sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
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Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
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For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
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Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
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Well, yeah, there's a lot in there, and I could take it in a science direction.
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I love thinking about the way that opened up with the piercing to the division of soul and spirit.
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I have thought about that verse many times when I contemplate the nature of what it means to be human and whether we are dualistic, we have a body and a soul, or we have three parts body, soul, and spirit, and there's obviously much debate about that.
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But honestly, the thing about this verse that really impresses me the most, especially in context where he's talking about the history of God speaking to people and them having to make a decision of whether to listen or reject it.
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And I think that's seems to be what he's saying when it it divides soul and spirit, joint and marrow.
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It really forces us to consider who we are and how we will respond to God.
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And that's the part I'm really impressed by here is that God's word, when he speaks throughout history, it uh forces us to have to make a decision.
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And of course, we want to make a good decision.
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Yes, it's the same thing that's piercing the whole time, whether it's way back in this part of our Bible with prophets or to the words of Jesus, or today as we interact with the word, it's that same dividing and piercing word of God that forces us to decide.
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There's obviously a lot here, I think we remember verse 15 the most about this high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses, he's been tempted in all things, yet without sin.
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But it was that verse before that made me hone in on this.
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It's a good reminder to be reading our New Testaments, because it's easy to remember certain verses out of their context.
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You realize these are right next to each other.
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Oh, this is really cool.
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And that high priest that that does sympathize with us is the same one who speaks this word that, like you mentioned, has a lot of what'd you call it, debate in the science world about these big words.
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I I wanted to read this because this is why I brought up this verse.
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It was September 25th at the prayer breakfast with Michael Eggnor.
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With Michael Egnor right at the prayer breakfast, and I was mentioning before how we were so excited to come here be friends with the Reeves, but very quickly I was intimidated by Daniel.
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Because listen to this text that he sends to me during the prayer breakfast.
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Of course, I've done a podcast on this before about his book and about the separation, the immaterial part of the human brain.
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And just mid-lecture, Daniel just sends a text to me and Emily and Jonathan Keene.
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Daniel says, This gives new meaning to piercing, to the division of soul and spirit, as though this is something that can't otherwise be done.
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That is, they are essentially one and the same.
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This seems to support substance dualism versus trialism.
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I get this text as I'm I promise you, I was just pounding bacon because it was a buffet.
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I was like, whoa, this guy is really smart.
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So you alluded to some of those terms.
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Tell us about what kind of fueled that text, the substance dualism.
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I do know what that is now, but at the time I was like, I need to look this up.
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Yeah, and you say I'm smart, I'm surrounded by smart people, and so it rubs off on me.
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I I hear um lots of people who have done a lot of study on this kind of thing discussing their ideas, and it gives me a chance to kind of consider what makes the most sense, especially in terms of scripture.
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So, substance dualism is essentially the view that our substance, what makes us human, is of dual nature.
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So part of it is that we are a body, a physical body, and part of it is that we are a soul or spirit or something else, you know, spiritual.
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Um, different people will use different terms.
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But there's also, you know, plenty of people who believe that there's like a third part of who we are that sets us apart from, say, animals.
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Because I think most of us would agree animals have an animating spirit, and if you read in scripture, it says that the creator breathed life.
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The word there for breathed is spirit.
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Yeah.
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And so there's there's clearly something we share with all animals.
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Life, even personality, is that fair to say?
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Yeah, I think so.
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Okay.
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And then there's also something above and beyond that that we as humans have that animals don't, and we often refer to as the Imago Dei that made in the image of God.
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And so, from a scientific standpoint, the question is: does that mean that there are three parts of who we are?
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There's something like, you know, a body, a soul, and a spirit.
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And again, these terms are used in different ways by different people, but the basic idea is are we two parts or are we three?
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Right.
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There's a beauty to thinking about us being three parts because God Himself is three parts.
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And perhaps being made in the image of God is a reference to that three-part nature.
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Yes.
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But there's also a lot of good reason to think that maybe we're just two parts, and our spirit is different than the spirit of animals in some way.
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Um, maybe the eternal nature or maybe something else.
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And there is, I think what made you send that text mid-lecture was there is something immaterial here.
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Yes.
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Scientifically, says the neurosurgeon who we were listening to, the neurosurgeon is pointing out all this overwhelming evidence.
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There's an immaterial part of us.
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Yes.
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Every single one of us.
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That's amazing.
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So make no mistake, Hebrews 4, uh 12 through 16 is not like a proof text for substance dualism.
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However, it's cool to think about.
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Hey, how did God create us?
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How is it that we're made in his image?
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What does this look like?
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The overwhelming point here is God's word uh is gonna do its job.
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It's gonna go out, whether it's the beginning, Genesis, all the way to 2026, it's the same word that's convicting us and causing us to answer.
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And of course, we get grace because of the sympathizing high priest.
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Now, but we're already into science-y talk and language, so let's go ahead and just launch into your work.
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I want to talk about your work.
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It was something that was interesting to me when I first met you that I wanted to know more about, but I want this to be fun for you too.
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So don't we're not clocking in to talk about work things that stress you out.
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Rather, I love the way you've talked about certain parts of your job that are life-giving.
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I've really adopted that term.
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And whatever job role you have in the home, in the workplace, focus on the things that are life-giving.
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Of course, any good job will have life-giving aspects.
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So tell us what you are able to share about your job, what you do, and especially those parts that are life-giving to you.
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My job, I should probably just kind of um describe briefly for those that don't know.
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I work to direct educational programs for Discovery Institute and specifically for the Center for Science and Culture, which is a program that is whose mission is to advance this idea that nature points to a designer or a mind behind nature.
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And we do that from a scientific standpoint.
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So obviously, believers like ourselves and most of my colleagues, if not all of them, can also argue for a creator from scriptural context or something else.
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But in our line of work at the Center for Science and Culture, the idea is to advance research and promote research that shows scientific evidence of a mind behind the universe and behind life.
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And my role is primarily to organize conferences and events, educational programs, curricula, other things that take the primary research of our scientists that we support or network with and boil it down into more lay-level materials and presentations, right?
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That us plebs can all consume.
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I have myself just a bachelor's in biology, don't have some PhD in the natural sciences to be able to advance a particular line of research or something, but my interest is in communicating scientific ideas at a level that an average student could could understand.
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Yeah.
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Okay, and I think from what I've already learned about Daniel, he's pretty good at that.
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He's actually really good at that.
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When we were, again, moving out here, I was trying to listen to as many things as I could that were going on here.
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And I found the class you were leading, I think you titled it One Revelation, Two Books, and I just thought it was really outstanding.
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And work that needs to be done in our churches that not everyone can do.
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Like I make the joke, but I I can't do that.
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I can't.
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Sure.
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Uh so I'm really grateful for the work you are doing.
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And it is life-giving to you.
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The aspect of the job, the communicating of it, is that the life-giving part or the research part?
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I think at the most basic level, the reason why I say it's life-giving is because I absolutely just love biology.
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I've always loved natural history, which is um, in a sense, almost like a forgotten art of um observing and describing nature.
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It's often associated with like kind of the Victorian era where everyone was a collector.
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People, um, it was very common for even just like a the average person to have like a curiosity cabinet in their house where they would collect natural items, anything from a pine cone to a seashell to you know, a taxidermied animal, you know.
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Curiosity cabinets.
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Yeah, curio cabinets, curiosity cabinets, they were very common.
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Now it's kind of a lost art, and I think that I just have a passion for observing and enjoying and contemplating nature.
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And so getting to do that in my line of work, even if if I'm just doing it in the context of an office where I'm reading other people's research and I'm boiling that down into ideas that can be communicated to a student, I just love it.
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It's it's really fascinating stuff.
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And the reason I think why it's so fascinating is because it's like getting a glimpse into the creator's mind himself, right?
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If you want to know about an engineer, you look at the things he engineers.
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If you want to, you know, understand a computer program, you look at his programs.
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And if you want to know the mind of God, you look at the things he's created.
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And so that's one of the things I love about my line of work is that I'm considering the creation in a scientific way, but I'm also thinking very theologically about what does this mean about the creator, about his nature and his mind.
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I I love nature, like you're talking about how nature points to a designer.
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And if I want to know God, I'm gonna look into what he's created.
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It's like a look into his mind, which is why humans appreciate art.
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You're trying to figure out someone's mind.
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Yeah, exactly.
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What's the thought process behind this?
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It's why I like comparing notes with people on different lectures or books of the Bible, you can kind of see into their mind.
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So now creation and biology is our chance to look into the minds of the creator.
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I'd never thought of it like that before.
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But also the way you approach scripture, and why I love talking about scripture with you is you observe it and really enjoy it.
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Uh, it's not meant to be a chore, it's meant to be exciting.
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Oh, exactly.
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Both books.
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Both books are observable and enjoyable.
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Is there something you're working on right now, or something you have worked on, that kind of gives you that glimpse into the creator's mind that you're excited about?
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Yeah, I mean, personally, there are two specific topics that I'm really interested in.
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My degree was in biology, but the focus was largely on ecology.
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A lot of people study biology and end up spending most of their time on cell and molecular biology, so it's all the tiny little molecular things.
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But I was much more focused on and fascinated by ecology or ecosystems and how all these different creatures interact to create a stable system.
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And the research that I was engaged in after my undergraduate degree with the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Agriculture, those projects were kind of ecological focused projects, like how does an introduced species or an invasive species affect an ecosystem?
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I was studying this tree frog that came from Puerto Rico to Hawaii, and how is this disrupting the ecosystem in Hawaii, or studying freshwater fish in the Great Lakes, studying how chemicals that we release into the environment, artificial man-made chemicals, how those are affecting fish reproduction.
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So these are the kind of things that I was really fascinated by.
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And now, in the context of my work, I'm seeing how these principles that the scientists I work with have developed at kind of the molecular, cellular, organismal level, how these same principles of design and engineering in life are also evident at the level of an ecosystem.
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So, for example, there's a biochemist in our network by the name of Michael Behe.
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He's one of the best known kind of household names when it comes to intelligent design, with this idea that science points to a mind.
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And Michael Behey coined the term irreducible complexity to talk about molecular machines in the cell.
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Yeah, I know that term.
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Yeah, and so he he used that to describe things like the flagellar motor on a bacteria that has all these different parts that work in perfect union to provide this function to the cell.
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And he compares the flagellar motor to like an outboard motor on a on a boat that has stators and joints and all these kinds of parts that we're familiar with in human engineering.
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And these things are all present at the molecular scale in every single cell, whether it's a bacteria, a human cell, a plant cell, doesn't matter.
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They all have these amazing, irreducibly complex machines, meaning there's not a single part you can take away without the thing breaking down.
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And of course, that's a great critique to Darwin's theory of evolution because it's saying that you can't just in a stepwise fashion end up with one little piece here that gives a little benefit, another piece.
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Exactly.
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It's not a stepwise gradual process.
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It's an all-at-on, all the parts in the same place at the same time.
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Irreducible.
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Irreducible.
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So I'm seeing concepts like that at the level of the ecosystem.
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When I observe, I read all these papers, right, on different ecological studies around invasive species or things like that, and it seems like the ecosystem itself, let's say it's a mangrove ecosystem or it's a temperate forest like where we are, each of those is irreducibly complex in the sense that there are aspects to the ecosystem, producers like plants, consumers like animals, detritivores like mushrooms, all of these different aspects to the system have to be in place, or else the whole system breaks down.
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So it's really fascinating to study the way that these principles of design are present at the level of a single cell, an organism, and even an entire ecosystem.
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So the irreducible complexity I had heard before, and I love that concept because it points to a designer.
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It's how to be designed at once, not like a gradual billions of years type thing, we get there eventually.
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But I'd never ever thought about irreducible complexity in the ecosystem.
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Yeah.
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I think about it really individually, though it makes sense.
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But in the ecosystem, if you remove one piece of a certain ecosystem, you don't have an ecosystem now.
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It's not gonna work.
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Right.
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And I don't know what that looks like exactly, but if you remove this guy who provides this important part, I don't know, the plant or the mushroom or whatever else, now it's irreducible.
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Yeah, and the thing that's cool about it is it's not just a kind of academic endeavor, like, oh, it's interesting that the ecosystem is indeed a system with all these different interacting parts.
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God's so cool.
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Yeah, it's not just academic, it it's quite important because um for two reasons.
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Number one, the theological implications.
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It's like, well, if it's an irreducibly complex system, then that implies that there was a system engineer, a mind that said everything's gotta be in place at the same time for this to work.
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And when you read Genesis 1 and the systematic way in which the biosphere, all the ecosystems together, were created in a matter of days, if you read that very literally, in a matter of days, you've got all these different parts in place plants, animals, sea creatures, birds of the air, everything's there in order for this to be stable.
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Yes.
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Um so it's got theological implications for sure, but then it also has research implications.
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And one of the things I've noticed is that when you start thinking of the ecosystem as truly a design system, not something where a bunch of species, as they've evolved and migrated across the globe and ended up in particular collections here and there, that they just find a way to make it work.
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Not that.
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So I'll give you just one to kind of give you a little taste.
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So everyone's heard of invasive species.
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I'm sure everyone can name at least one invasive species in their region because you hear about it in the news.
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Sounds like it's gonna be the end of the world if we don't eradicate the.
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:04.799
There you go.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:05.920
They pay you to go kill them.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:07.359
Yes, that's the Florida man.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:07.839
Sorry.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:09.920
Here, yeah, no, that one's great.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:17.680
The here in Washington, um, scotch broom that grows all along the highways, it's this plant that um just takes over.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:18.480
I mean, it's crazy.
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:25.279
My wife, Emily, loves it because it's got beautiful yellow flowers, but that's considered to be a really invasive species.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:35.039
And for decades now, we've treated invasive species as basically a thing that needs to be immediately eradicated.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.920
And it's kind of a one-sided view where I mean the name itself implies that it's a negative thing.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.240
It's invaded, it's taking over, we need to remove it, that's our responsibility.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.960
But it's much more nuanced than that.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:20:08.880
And one of the things that scientists have discovered is that when we as humans disturb a natural ecosystem through land use or chemical spills or whatever it may be, we oftentimes end up killing some kind of a species or some part of the ecosystem through our use of the land or resources.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:18.400
If we drain a swamp so that we can build a runway, then obviously there are going to be swamp, you know, plants, for example, that can no longer live there.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:19.359
Those die off.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:23.440
If they're only present in these particular ecosystems, they could even go extinct.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:42.559
What happens when we disturb an ecosystem and we lose a particular species or a group of species is we oftentimes introduce a new species inadvertently through horticulture, you know, landscaping plants or house plants or any other thing.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:54.640
We we inadvertently introduce a species that ends up being a generalist that can kind of fill in that void that we've created through our own ecological disturbances.
00:20:55.039 --> 00:21:02.799
And that plant or animal, whatever it may be, oftentimes fills that void in a way that actually stabilizes the ecosystem.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.960
So you can't do without this particular niche or role in the ecosystem, and so it comes and it fills it very quickly.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:14.480
It looks like it's going to take over and there's gonna be nothing but kudzu left or nothing but Boa constrictors left.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:27.839
But it oftentimes these species come in, they fill the void, and then over time, the species that are more specific to that ecosystem end up coming back in and refilling the ecosystem.
00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:30.160
Even without our correct interaction.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:30.880
Yeah.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:42.000
And once you know that, then of course our conservation programs, including the EPA, the USDA, um, other conservation programs, can actually aid that natural process.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.720
So rather than fighting it, they aid it.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:52.319
Um so we can we can observe what's going on and say, okay, well, let's start reintroducing the native now that things have stabilized.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.720
Let's bring the wolf back to Washington.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.599
Let's bring back native plants to replace the Scotch broom along the highway.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.559
Like that.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.880
So it improves our research and improves our ability to conserve the environment, which is a huge part of our calling.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:08.799
So yeah, it's very exciting.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.720
Yeah, it's so so it is a design ecosystem.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.039
And and maybe we do mess it up sometimes.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.440
The ecosystem is designed for a reason that it can take care of itself.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:29.279
And the research you're able to do to probably watch that happen over time or see the I don't know what you're looking at, but to see like okay, ecosystems do have a designer to them.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.960
I see that in real life, whether it's along the highway or in a swamp in Florida.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:33.440
That's right.
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:35.119
It's observable and enjoyable.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:35.440
Yeah.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:36.480
I enjoyed that though.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.359
I enjoyed that.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:46.720
I I feel like I don't know, maybe there's something you're gonna write up on this or a podcast you're gonna do with someone else about the irreducible complexity of the ecosystem.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.480
I could listen to a lot about it.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.119
There's a lot there.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:50.000
It's so cool.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.200
And maybe it turns into a sermon when we mix in Genesis 1.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:58.400
We're just looking at this, uh the the way I like to teach it is days one through three, everything is formed.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:22:58.720
Yes.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.559
Days four through six, everything's filled.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:00.880
Yeah.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:01.920
Formed and filled.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.920
Like that I I did not know about irreducible complexity in the ecosystem until today, but it makes sense to form it first.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:08.240
Yep.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:09.039
And then fill it.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:09.759
That's right.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:10.640
So cool.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.680
Um, so the whole point of this, besides just interesting, enjoying the observable facts of science, is to remind us we don't have anything to be afraid of.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.200
Truth has nothing to fear.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.640
Go find out about science.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.799
Science felt like a bad word to me as a kid because scientists are the ones who hate God.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:27.440
No, they're not.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:29.680
Like enter Daniel and Emily and they're friends.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.119
Like scientists are people who want to know the nature of God.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.640
And when you learn a lot about science, you're gonna learn about God.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:37.359
He's there.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.039
Go seek, you will find.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:24:00.000
You know, you're you're talking like a uh scientific revolutionary, you know, because if you go back to like the scientific revolution, you have all these people like Newton, Copernicus, Boyle, and they all wrote in a similar way that basically said their study of the natural world is a way to understand the creator and the creation.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.200
And so their theological worldview, their belief in God, was what drove them to do research.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:16.240
And there's also something interesting about that, which is that it gave them the confidence to say that the world is orderly because it's created by a single God.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:23.519
It's not a pantheon of gods whose you know conflicting interests exactly have resulted in this world, yeah.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:48.799
Yeah, rather it's a single monotheistic God who created everything in union and unity, and so it's orderly, and therefore we can study it using the scientific method, which says that you come up with a hypothesis, you test it, you repeat it over and over again because the laws of physics and nature are orderly, and you're not gonna test one thing today and get one answer and test it tomorrow and get a different answer.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:50.000
It's orderly.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:59.200
And at the same time, they believed that humans were a sinful fallen creature, and therefore we are prone to making mistakes.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:05.920
We're prone to hubris and saying, Oh, we've got it all figured out, I've come up with a theory of relativity, and now it's never gonna change.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:24.640
When in fact, we are often prone to misunderstanding, and so we have to test our theories constantly, and sometimes we need to throw out old theories, sorry, Darwin, and bring in new theories that are that meet the current scientific evidence as it is today.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:30.720
And so that's cool because the scientific revolutionaries set a standard for how we do science today.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:40.400
Be really thorough, test it, count on things being orderly, but also know that you are fallible and be ready to change your theory when new evidence comes on the scene.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:41.759
That's the point of testing.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:42.400
Exactly.
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.240
And now it gets into hermeneutics, don't just test something to make sure I'm right.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.279
Like I was expected.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:47.920
Yeah, right.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.720
No, no, do a new test and find out that way you can be sure.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:55.680
And again, when I listened to the One Revelation 2 books, you kept emphasizing modern science.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:00.559
And if someone comes to you about quoting something from Darwin's time, like, whoa, you're way behind.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.559
Right, we've learned a lot since Darwin's.
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:03.200
Yes, yeah.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:04.240
Um amazing.
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.880
As you've already caught on, we can talk about science all day.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.920
And what I will say about you, Daniel, is I'm not a science guy.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.400
I'm not.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.079
But like when I'm around you, I feel like I am.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:13.119
Like contagious.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:14.000
It's contagious.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.440
I've never felt that way before until I met Daniel and started talking with him.
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:26.640
However, Daniel is a person outside of his world in his job and his scientific research, and I want to talk about that because Daniel, growing up, you're a preacher's kid.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.119
Yeah.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:28.559
One of eight.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.279
One of eight.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:29.920
One of eight.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.400
Okay.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:32.559
And in that lineup, you're up there.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:33.519
Oh goodness.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:34.640
Um three.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.119
Three.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:36.000
Think about it.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.119
Three, I think.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:37.519
Okay.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.680
Uh so almost there in the middle of eight kids.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.480
Growing up as a preacher's kid is is really interesting.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:47.279
There's I'm sure so much you could say about it, but try to hone in on making your faith your own.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.119
Because we know what those preachers' families look like.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.359
I can't even imagine actually the eight kids coming in and filling up the row, and probably the expectations that come with that, that's hard.
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:56.079
That's really hard.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:01.839
So maybe talk about what that was like for you growing up, the places you've been, and especially how you made your faith your own.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.440
Yeah, so we moved around quite a bit as a family.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:06.960
I was born in Ohio.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.319
I think we lived, my family lived in Ohio a couple different places.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:24.880
But soon after I was born, I think I was around three when we moved to Tennessee, and we had extended family there, so it was neat to grow up there close to my grandparents', my mom's parents' farm in Murfersboro, and just lots of fond memories from Tennessee.
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:32.559
I just made fried okra a couple nights ago, and the the smell of the boiled okra just literally brought me back to Tennessee.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:33.519
Oh, I miss it.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.680
But it was a really great time of life in Tennessee, and then we moved to the East Coast to Rhode Island, Providence area.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:40.000
Wow.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.440
And we're there for many years.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.799
That's the longest place I've ever lived until here, Washington.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.799
And that church was a lot smaller, and our work there, it's like our work was cut out for us, you know, because a smaller church, more work to do.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.359
Lots of ten members just by the way.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.240
That's true.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.880
We significantly increased the number.
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.559
So yeah, we moved around a lot.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.960
My dad was also just very, like many preachers, very involved in the community.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:22.400
Lots of one-on-one Bible studies in people's homes, in the community, lots of just talking to our next door neighbors and the mailman and anyone he could come across to initiate studies and get people thinking about their eternal lives.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:25.119
And so that was like an everyday part of our life.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:29.359
We were homeschooled for the most part up through like middle school.
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:40.240
And then sometime in middle to high school, we, depending on where we were in the process of moving or whatever, in my case, it was right around eighth grade that I went to public school.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:59.119
And so even though we were, you know, in public school during those later years and very busy, and all of us are high achievers or getting great grades and very involved in school, at the same time we were expected by my dad, especially to attend these studies with him.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:18.720
So even when it was like a study with an individual in their home, he would also tote along as many of the kids as he could because I think he knew that this was valuable to be exposed to these studies and and more importantly, be exposed to people who are in different places in their life than we were.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:20.240
I think that was really valuable.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.920
It gave me a way of seeing other people differently than I would have otherwise.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:31.839
I think that I now relate more easily to people who are in a different walk of life than I am.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:33.359
So that was really valuable.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.319
We spent a lot of time in Bible studies together with people.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.799
It also meant that we were extremely busy, gregarious people.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:47.279
Spent way more time away from home than we did at home, which definitely influences you as an adult.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:49.680
You know, you tend to be as you were as a child.
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:50.000
Yeah.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.440
I love that he brought you along to those studies, showing the work of an evangelist.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.920
And it's easy, especially as a preacher's kid, to think, oh, this is it.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.119
Like this church building and that pulpit, like that's the work.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:10.000
And probably your dad's getting a lot of handshakes and high fives on Sunday mornings when he's wearing the tie, and you think, oh, this is this is it.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:16.960
Yeah, that's what dad does, and dad really well is showing you no, no, no, dad does much, much, much, much more than that.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.559
Come look at the hard moments.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.640
Yeah, the people who are struggling, the people who are far from God and need brought in.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.240
Uh I'm trying to imagine they bring in eight kids with the end of some time.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.240
But I'm sure it was I opened it.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:39.039
It was fun, and I think it was encouraging too for for other families, you know, that we were studying with to see that we've got this whole family that's interested in the word and opening the word and studying it.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:57.839
And the other thing too is that, you know, I I did it helped me see this balance where you know there are some preachers probably who start their you know work on their sermon weeks in advance, or at least, you know, as soon as they finish one sermon, they're starting on the next, and that keeps them busy, you know, for a whole week at least.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.079
But with my dad, you know, everyone's different.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:14.240
But my dad, he spent the whole week just out and about, and his conversations out by the trash can with the garbage man, I'm sure, were just as important to him as the work that he did at his desk preparing a sermon.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:14.559
Yes.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.680
That was very evident to me because he would never turn down an opportunity to talk with someone about spiritual things.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:20.079
Yeah.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:27.519
And sometimes as a kid you get annoyed, it's like, yeah, we need to get home, we're at the grocery store, dad's stuck talking with some random person over here.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:42.799
But really, I admire him for placing the value on people, and if that meant that he was cramming for his you know sermon preparation on the Saturday night because he spent all week long meeting with people in the community, good for him.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:44.720
You know, yes, good for him.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.680
So amen.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.039
Uh it was Brett Hunter who who said it in kind of a lecture on evangelism.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.000
He said, I'll make my sermon outline on Saturday night every week.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.720
If I can fill my week up with studies, I'm gonna do that.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.359
We can't be saying, uh, no, don't have time for that right now.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:58.319
I gotta be busy preparing.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.400
Yeah, I gotta work on my slides for Sunday.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.160
I got a good joke coming up.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:03.119
Like it'd be nice.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.839
I would love to do that.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.559
I love speaking.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.519
I love public speaking and sermons, that's important, but it's gotta be an emphasis on going.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:14.160
And for you as a kid to see that dad's not clocking out spiritual time.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:18.079
He's at the grocery store and he's like, I'm not working, and yeah, missing an opportunity.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.039
It's a lifestyle, who he is, and all of us as evangelists can be like that.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:24.559
You can take this opportunity.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:26.000
So that's something I've tried to work on.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.599
Whenever someone wants to talk to me, like salesman, no one likes a salesman.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.400
Like when I'm at the mall and they try to talk to me, I say yes just for the evangelistic opportunity.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.799
You know, like the ones with like the lotion in the back, want to try this?
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.000
I'm like, okay, sure.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:39.519
And I'll launch into something.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.039
Like, you've got something you want to pitch to me, like I'll get something way better to show you.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:43.599
That's great.
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:44.559
So take the opportunities.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.519
I gotta meet your dad.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.160
What's his name?
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:47.119
Tim Reeves.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.240
Tim Reeves, okay.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.920
I know a lot of Reeves, but I haven't met him yet.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.319
That's a really cool story of how how he raised that's a tough job.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.680
Eight kids PK out there in Rhode Island, and then making that that faith your own.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.039
Is that hard for you?
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.079
Is it harder or easier?
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:03.279
You know, it was.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:21.839
There was one aspect that was hard, and that is that I think that you know, growing up in a preacher's home, I think there's like a higher expectation placed on you because your behavior, your words, how you dress, how you behave yourself, yeah, that reflects on the preacher.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:37.359
So there's like this higher level of expectation, and I think what came with that for me was a sense of almost like I need to clean up my act before I'm ready to be a part of God's kingdom.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:37.680
Oh.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:50.720
And so it took a while for me to formally make that commitment to follow Christ and submit myself through baptism because I had a bit of a hang-up about like my sin.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:56.400
I was like, I'm a sinful guy, I need to get my act together so I can be a part of this kingdom.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.480
I can be holy enough.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.559
And you know, that's not how my dad preached grace.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:09.360
That's not, but it's kind of just the effect of constantly having this pressure of having to live up to a certain expectation.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:10.559
Of the appearances, yeah.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:12.079
That's what they can see.
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:12.400
Yes.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:13.840
So that's what you put the emphasis on.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.079
Yes.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:15.280
It's totally understandable.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:21.679
So that I carried that with me throughout my like teen years, and I remember that we had a gospel meeting.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:23.679
This preacher came from out of town.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:27.840
He gave one lesson on Sunday, and he came up to me.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.400
Here I am, uh like 18-year-old, I believe.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:40.880
He came up to me and met me at the break between like the Bible study hour and the sermon, and he didn't know that I was Tim Reeves' son, the preacher's son.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.719
He just saw a young man, an 18-year-old, sitting by with his friends.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.719
So he came up to me and said, Hey, what's your name?
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:47.840
I said, I'm Daniel.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.039
Oh, nice to meet you.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.719
Uh asked a couple things about myself, and then said, So are you a believer?
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:54.000
I said, Oh yeah, I believe.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:55.039
And he said, Oh, that's great.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:58.480
So you've been baptized, and said, No, actually, I haven't been baptized.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:34:59.519
He said, Really?
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.920
What is it that do you have some doubts?
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.400
And I was like, No, I don't, I don't have any doubts.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.679
And he was like, Well, well then why haven't you been baptized?
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.320
I was like, ah, it's kind of complicated.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.599
And and he said, Well, what's complicated?
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.679
And I was like, Well, I just, you know, there's just things I struggle with that I'm trying to like work on in my life, you know, before I can be ready.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:28.079
And he I forget exactly how he responded, but the gist that I got from it was being baptized is the starting point.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:33.119
That's like your decision that you want to take the fork in the road down the right path.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.320
Doesn't matter where you came to that fork, where you are in your life, it could be the worst place ever.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.280
You're taking the fork in the road and you're heading down the right path.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:43.119
Starting the other.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:48.559
And it's a journey, but you start there, and that's where the work begins.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:52.960
And really, the work is is not yours to do in a sense.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:57.840
It's submitting yourself to Christ and letting Him guide you in the right path.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.159
And that was such a refreshing take.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.960
It's not that it's different than what I had learned.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:13.440
It just, I don't know, it just came from a fresh perspective, a fresh voice, and I went home that day and was very convicted and was baptized later that same day.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:14.000
Wow.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:21.440
Yeah, it was once I realized the simplicity of God's grace, it was a very decision easy decision to make, right?
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:22.000
Yes.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.599
But it took several years to kind of work through some of the misunderstandings I had there.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:31.039
So I think it's a good lesson on the impact a stranger can have.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.320
A lot of times I think I can only have impact on people that I've known forever.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:34.639
Yeah.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:39.440
Sometimes that fresh perspective does come from a stranger to just ask the easiest basic questions.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:41.280
So I love that that happened for you.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:42.480
You thought about it.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:43.199
Oh, yes.
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:44.480
Yeah, I do want that.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:46.159
I can like grace is the beginning.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.119
That's what we're talking about today.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.320
Grace and obedience.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:48.960
Right, exactly.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:51.440
Obedience is gonna be really, really hard without the grace part.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:57.599
You know, there is a a member of the church there at the time who had come from a really rough past.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:04.159
He was a recent convert, and his life, you know, did just a total 180 when he came to Christ.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.800
Cool.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:06.320
And we all knew that about him.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.039
It was such a cool story of redemption.
00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:21.920
But he was there present for my baptism, and he came up to me afterwards and congratulated me, and he said, It must feel so weird, you know, as a preacher's kid being baptized, it must feel so weird because nothing really changes.
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:29.679
And I just, you know, I I know what he meant, but I just had to kind of laugh because I just I told him I was like, no, everything changes.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:30.480
Nothing changes.
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:47.280
Like j it doesn't matter whether you're a preacher's kid or you were raised by the staunchest atheist, everything changes because the guilt is lifted, the the fear is lifted, the pressure of having to like direct your own steps, which is really awful.
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.679
All of that's lifted, and you now have a savior who's like, I'll guide you, follow me.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:53.360
It's a starting point for everyone.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:53.760
That's right.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:54.960
And that's what we read in the book of Acts.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:56.320
Like, oh, this is where it starts.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.000
It's not, ooh, you've really messed up.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.119
We're gonna have to baptize you.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:00.400
That's our only shot.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:01.840
Like, oh, your PKO, you'll be good.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:02.000
Right.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:04.639
No, no, this is the starting point for everyone.
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:05.119
Yeah.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.960
Yeah, and that's where it changes.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:08.719
Okay, Daniel, bring us home.
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.880
We've reached the favorites section.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.000
What do you got?
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:17.760
My favorite verse, that's probably the easier one to answer, is Jeremiah 17, 7.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:18.079
Oh.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:31.280
This verse came to me, or I came across it at a pivotal point in my life where I felt like I needed, really needed to lean into my faith and my relationship with God.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:43.920
And what actually stood out to me were the preceding verses where it says that the man who I'm paraphrasing, but the man who trusts in man is like a shrub in the desert who will see no good come.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:39:11.360
But and this is the the part I'm referring to, chapter 17, verse 7, the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose trust is Yahweh, will be like a tree planted by the water, which sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when the heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the era of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:28.239
And that was that was such an uh encouraging verse to come across to realize that if I just lean into my relationship with God, into that life-giving stream, I don't have to worry about the heat, the drought, the whatever it may be, I'll have this constant source of life.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:41.760
Jeremiah 177 is not one that you like see on the wall or like listed, you know, with like the other verses uh at Hobby Lobby, but it really feels like Proverbs 3, 5, which is my favorite verse.
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.239
Oh yeah.
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:45.760
And then Psalm 1, like a tree planted by the water.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:48.000
It feels like both of those back to back combined.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:49.360
Wow, amazing.
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.320
And yeah, that you quoted it very close to what my NASB has here, so it must be verbatim.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:55.840
I think this is ESV, yeah.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:56.880
Yeah, that's what you've got.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.599
Uh fantastic.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.440
Jeremiah 17 at 7.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.639
Uh I had to look it up.
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:02.880
Probably you will too if you're listening to it.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:03.840
So that's one to know.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.159
Get that on the memory verse list.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.639
Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord and whose trust is the Lord.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.079
With those capital letters.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:12.960
That's Yahweh.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:14.320
Okay, last one.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:15.599
This one's harder.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.719
Okay, hands harder.
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:24.719
I would say, you know, one that has always stood out to me is the song God Incarnate Can It Be.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:33.519
And I'm not even sure that that one's in our hymnal here in Bremerton, so it's probably less familiar to people listening here.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.760
But that song just always hits me hard.
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.679
It it goes something like this God incarnate can it be?
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.079
Ponder now the mystery.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:49.440
He, the fount of eternal life, must drink the cup of mortality.
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.840
Emmanuel, God with us.
00:40:52.480 --> 00:41:05.679
And then the last verse, God creator, now created, Lord of all in infancy, hands that lighted the evening stars reach out for comfort in Mary's arms.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:07.599
Emmanuel, God with us.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.679
Is this amazing song?
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:11.440
I mean, it just gives me shivers.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:18.639
Every time I think about it, that the creator of the universe who created everything came down as a created thing.
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:22.480
The same hands that lit the stars are now reaching out for comfort from Mary.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:29.679
I mean, just what a sacrifice to create everything and then to come down into that creation for mankind.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.199
It just blows my mind.
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:35.280
Goosebumps, all the feelings, tears come to the eyes.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:36.880
That's where we'll leave it.
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:38.000
That was a great one.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:38.800
I don't know that one.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.760
I don't know that one, so maybe we can learn it.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.239
But God incarnate, can it be?
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.639
Something maybe we take for granted sometimes.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:47.599
This is amazing.
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:55.679
So thank you for taking us through that journey of creation and science and your interacting with the observable, enjoyable world as well as the word.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.119
Daniel, thank you so much for it.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:57.599
Absolutely.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:58.079
This is fun.
00:41:58.239 --> 00:41:58.559
It was fun.
00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.199
Oh, good.
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:00.079
I'd love to hear that.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:06.159
The Bible tells us to consider one another in order to stir up love and good works in each other.
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:11.840
So thank you for stirring up love and good works in me just by listening to this episode.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.160
Consider one another is a podcast focused on each other.
00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:11.839
Thank you for tuning in to this podcast that is all about stirring up love and good works in one another.
00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:18.000
Okay, welcome back to the Consider One Another podcast.
00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:20.000
It is a Sunday afternoon.
00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:22.000
It's kind of hot, says Daniel.
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:23.359
But we're here in the conference room.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:25.199
Daniel, thank you so much for making the time for this.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:26.559
I've been looking forward to this.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:27.839
Yes, we have been.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:35.439
I think I said this when I talked with Emily, but the Reeves family was one that we were like most excited to spend time with.
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.320
When we were moving out here driving, it's been a year now.
00:00:38.560 --> 00:00:40.399
About a year ago is when we started our drive.
00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:43.119
We were thinking about being friends with the Reeves.
00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.679
And last Sunday we're over there at your place playing games.
00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:47.840
This Sunday we're out recording podcasts.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:49.439
I'm really, really grateful to say.
00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:50.960
Yeah, these are some of my best friends.
00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:51.920
Cool, thank you.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:56.479
We were equally excited for you guys to come out after having met you on your earlier visit.
00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.640
So yeah, it was really short, the first visit.
00:00:58.719 --> 00:00:58.960
Yep.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:01.679
It was enough to be like, wow, I'm really excited.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:03.920
Daniel, let's just jump into scripture.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:06.000
I am in Hebrews 4.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:10.560
I'm gonna read Hebrews 4 verses 12 through 15.
00:01:10.799 --> 00:01:14.480
I will just read the scripture, and then you jump in with any thoughts you have.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:15.200
Sound good?
00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:15.920
Sounds great.
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:29.599
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:36.799
And there is no creature hidden from his sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:45.280
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:54.400
For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
00:01:54.719 --> 00:02:03.120
Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:09.199
Well, yeah, there's a lot in there, and I could take it in a science direction.
00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:15.199
I love thinking about the way that opened up with the piercing to the division of soul and spirit.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:31.280
I have thought about that verse many times when I contemplate the nature of what it means to be human and whether we are dualistic, we have a body and a soul, or we have three parts body, soul, and spirit, and there's obviously much debate about that.
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:46.719
But honestly, the thing about this verse that really impresses me the most, especially in context where he's talking about the history of God speaking to people and them having to make a decision of whether to listen or reject it.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:53.280
And I think that's seems to be what he's saying when it it divides soul and spirit, joint and marrow.
00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.319
It really forces us to consider who we are and how we will respond to God.
00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:08.080
And that's the part I'm really impressed by here is that God's word, when he speaks throughout history, it uh forces us to have to make a decision.
00:03:08.240 --> 00:03:10.560
And of course, we want to make a good decision.
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:27.680
Yes, it's the same thing that's piercing the whole time, whether it's way back in this part of our Bible with prophets or to the words of Jesus, or today as we interact with the word, it's that same dividing and piercing word of God that forces us to decide.
00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:37.919
There's obviously a lot here, I think we remember verse 15 the most about this high priest who can sympathize with our weaknesses, he's been tempted in all things, yet without sin.
00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:41.360
But it was that verse before that made me hone in on this.
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:47.120
It's a good reminder to be reading our New Testaments, because it's easy to remember certain verses out of their context.
00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:49.039
You realize these are right next to each other.
00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:50.560
Oh, this is really cool.
00:03:50.800 --> 00:04:01.599
And that high priest that that does sympathize with us is the same one who speaks this word that, like you mentioned, has a lot of what'd you call it, debate in the science world about these big words.
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:05.199
I I wanted to read this because this is why I brought up this verse.
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:10.240
It was September 25th at the prayer breakfast with Michael Eggnor.
00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:20.399
With Michael Egnor right at the prayer breakfast, and I was mentioning before how we were so excited to come here be friends with the Reeves, but very quickly I was intimidated by Daniel.
00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.920
Because listen to this text that he sends to me during the prayer breakfast.
00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:31.759
Of course, I've done a podcast on this before about his book and about the separation, the immaterial part of the human brain.
00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.959
And just mid-lecture, Daniel just sends a text to me and Emily and Jonathan Keene.
00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:45.040
Daniel says, This gives new meaning to piercing, to the division of soul and spirit, as though this is something that can't otherwise be done.
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.680
That is, they are essentially one and the same.
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:52.160
This seems to support substance dualism versus trialism.
00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:56.560
I get this text as I'm I promise you, I was just pounding bacon because it was a buffet.
00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.680
I was like, whoa, this guy is really smart.
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:01.759
So you alluded to some of those terms.
00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.000
Tell us about what kind of fueled that text, the substance dualism.
00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:08.800
I do know what that is now, but at the time I was like, I need to look this up.
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:13.519
Yeah, and you say I'm smart, I'm surrounded by smart people, and so it rubs off on me.
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:26.319
I I hear um lots of people who have done a lot of study on this kind of thing discussing their ideas, and it gives me a chance to kind of consider what makes the most sense, especially in terms of scripture.
00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:35.120
So, substance dualism is essentially the view that our substance, what makes us human, is of dual nature.
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:43.360
So part of it is that we are a body, a physical body, and part of it is that we are a soul or spirit or something else, you know, spiritual.
00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:45.680
Um, different people will use different terms.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:53.040
But there's also, you know, plenty of people who believe that there's like a third part of who we are that sets us apart from, say, animals.
00:05:53.199 --> 00:06:01.839
Because I think most of us would agree animals have an animating spirit, and if you read in scripture, it says that the creator breathed life.
00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:05.279
The word there for breathed is spirit.
00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:05.680
Yeah.
00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:09.439
And so there's there's clearly something we share with all animals.
00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.000
Life, even personality, is that fair to say?
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:12.800
Yeah, I think so.
00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:13.279
Okay.
00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:24.879
And then there's also something above and beyond that that we as humans have that animals don't, and we often refer to as the Imago Dei that made in the image of God.
00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:31.600
And so, from a scientific standpoint, the question is: does that mean that there are three parts of who we are?
00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:34.800
There's something like, you know, a body, a soul, and a spirit.
00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:40.800
And again, these terms are used in different ways by different people, but the basic idea is are we two parts or are we three?
00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:41.279
Right.
00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:46.959
There's a beauty to thinking about us being three parts because God Himself is three parts.
00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.920
And perhaps being made in the image of God is a reference to that three-part nature.
00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:52.480
Yes.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:07:00.720
But there's also a lot of good reason to think that maybe we're just two parts, and our spirit is different than the spirit of animals in some way.
00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:03.199
Um, maybe the eternal nature or maybe something else.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:08.959
And there is, I think what made you send that text mid-lecture was there is something immaterial here.
00:07:09.120 --> 00:07:09.360
Yes.
00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:16.399
Scientifically, says the neurosurgeon who we were listening to, the neurosurgeon is pointing out all this overwhelming evidence.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:19.439
There's an immaterial part of us.
00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:19.839
Yes.
00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:20.800
Every single one of us.
00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:21.439
That's amazing.
00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:27.759
So make no mistake, Hebrews 4, uh 12 through 16 is not like a proof text for substance dualism.
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:29.519
However, it's cool to think about.
00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.120
Hey, how did God create us?
00:07:31.439 --> 00:07:32.879
How is it that we're made in his image?
00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:33.920
What does this look like?
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:37.920
The overwhelming point here is God's word uh is gonna do its job.
00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:46.079
It's gonna go out, whether it's the beginning, Genesis, all the way to 2026, it's the same word that's convicting us and causing us to answer.
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.959
And of course, we get grace because of the sympathizing high priest.
00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:56.240
Now, but we're already into science-y talk and language, so let's go ahead and just launch into your work.
00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:57.680
I want to talk about your work.
00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:04.079
It was something that was interesting to me when I first met you that I wanted to know more about, but I want this to be fun for you too.
00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:08.000
So don't we're not clocking in to talk about work things that stress you out.
00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:12.240
Rather, I love the way you've talked about certain parts of your job that are life-giving.
00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:13.920
I've really adopted that term.
00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:19.439
And whatever job role you have in the home, in the workplace, focus on the things that are life-giving.
00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.399
Of course, any good job will have life-giving aspects.
00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:29.600
So tell us what you are able to share about your job, what you do, and especially those parts that are life-giving to you.
00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:35.039
My job, I should probably just kind of um describe briefly for those that don't know.
00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:53.519
I work to direct educational programs for Discovery Institute and specifically for the Center for Science and Culture, which is a program that is whose mission is to advance this idea that nature points to a designer or a mind behind nature.
00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.039
And we do that from a scientific standpoint.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:07.120
So obviously, believers like ourselves and most of my colleagues, if not all of them, can also argue for a creator from scriptural context or something else.
00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:19.440
But in our line of work at the Center for Science and Culture, the idea is to advance research and promote research that shows scientific evidence of a mind behind the universe and behind life.
00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:38.000
And my role is primarily to organize conferences and events, educational programs, curricula, other things that take the primary research of our scientists that we support or network with and boil it down into more lay-level materials and presentations, right?
00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:40.720
That us plebs can all consume.
00:09:40.960 --> 00:09:59.039
I have myself just a bachelor's in biology, don't have some PhD in the natural sciences to be able to advance a particular line of research or something, but my interest is in communicating scientific ideas at a level that an average student could could understand.
00:09:59.440 --> 00:09:59.519
Yeah.
00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:04.480
Okay, and I think from what I've already learned about Daniel, he's pretty good at that.
00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:06.000
He's actually really good at that.
00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:10.799
When we were, again, moving out here, I was trying to listen to as many things as I could that were going on here.
00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:17.440
And I found the class you were leading, I think you titled it One Revelation, Two Books, and I just thought it was really outstanding.
00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:21.120
And work that needs to be done in our churches that not everyone can do.
00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:23.200
Like I make the joke, but I I can't do that.
00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:23.679
I can't.
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:24.080
Sure.
00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.720
Uh so I'm really grateful for the work you are doing.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:28.080
And it is life-giving to you.
00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.639
The aspect of the job, the communicating of it, is that the life-giving part or the research part?
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:39.440
I think at the most basic level, the reason why I say it's life-giving is because I absolutely just love biology.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:48.960
I've always loved natural history, which is um, in a sense, almost like a forgotten art of um observing and describing nature.
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.840
It's often associated with like kind of the Victorian era where everyone was a collector.
00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:08.879
People, um, it was very common for even just like a the average person to have like a curiosity cabinet in their house where they would collect natural items, anything from a pine cone to a seashell to you know, a taxidermied animal, you know.
00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:09.919
Curiosity cabinets.
00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:13.440
Yeah, curio cabinets, curiosity cabinets, they were very common.
00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:22.399
Now it's kind of a lost art, and I think that I just have a passion for observing and enjoying and contemplating nature.
00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:35.759
And so getting to do that in my line of work, even if if I'm just doing it in the context of an office where I'm reading other people's research and I'm boiling that down into ideas that can be communicated to a student, I just love it.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:37.519
It's it's really fascinating stuff.
00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:45.759
And the reason I think why it's so fascinating is because it's like getting a glimpse into the creator's mind himself, right?
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.759
If you want to know about an engineer, you look at the things he engineers.
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:53.679
If you want to, you know, understand a computer program, you look at his programs.
00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:58.080
And if you want to know the mind of God, you look at the things he's created.
00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:12.559
And so that's one of the things I love about my line of work is that I'm considering the creation in a scientific way, but I'm also thinking very theologically about what does this mean about the creator, about his nature and his mind.
00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.039
I I love nature, like you're talking about how nature points to a designer.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.080
And if I want to know God, I'm gonna look into what he's created.
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.000
It's like a look into his mind, which is why humans appreciate art.
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:25.360
You're trying to figure out someone's mind.
00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:26.080
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.080
What's the thought process behind this?
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:34.240
It's why I like comparing notes with people on different lectures or books of the Bible, you can kind of see into their mind.
00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:39.679
So now creation and biology is our chance to look into the minds of the creator.
00:12:39.919 --> 00:12:41.440
I'd never thought of it like that before.
00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:47.840
But also the way you approach scripture, and why I love talking about scripture with you is you observe it and really enjoy it.
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.159
Uh, it's not meant to be a chore, it's meant to be exciting.
00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:50.960
Oh, exactly.
00:12:51.519 --> 00:12:52.240
Both books.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.000
Both books are observable and enjoyable.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:03.440
Is there something you're working on right now, or something you have worked on, that kind of gives you that glimpse into the creator's mind that you're excited about?
00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:09.679
Yeah, I mean, personally, there are two specific topics that I'm really interested in.
00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:14.960
My degree was in biology, but the focus was largely on ecology.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:22.480
A lot of people study biology and end up spending most of their time on cell and molecular biology, so it's all the tiny little molecular things.
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:32.159
But I was much more focused on and fascinated by ecology or ecosystems and how all these different creatures interact to create a stable system.
00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:49.360
And the research that I was engaged in after my undergraduate degree with the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Agriculture, those projects were kind of ecological focused projects, like how does an introduced species or an invasive species affect an ecosystem?
00:13:49.519 --> 00:14:05.919
I was studying this tree frog that came from Puerto Rico to Hawaii, and how is this disrupting the ecosystem in Hawaii, or studying freshwater fish in the Great Lakes, studying how chemicals that we release into the environment, artificial man-made chemicals, how those are affecting fish reproduction.
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.960
So these are the kind of things that I was really fascinated by.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:29.279
And now, in the context of my work, I'm seeing how these principles that the scientists I work with have developed at kind of the molecular, cellular, organismal level, how these same principles of design and engineering in life are also evident at the level of an ecosystem.
00:14:29.679 --> 00:14:33.679
So, for example, there's a biochemist in our network by the name of Michael Behe.
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:41.440
He's one of the best known kind of household names when it comes to intelligent design, with this idea that science points to a mind.
00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:50.480
And Michael Behey coined the term irreducible complexity to talk about molecular machines in the cell.
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:51.679
Yeah, I know that term.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:15:04.639
Yeah, and so he he used that to describe things like the flagellar motor on a bacteria that has all these different parts that work in perfect union to provide this function to the cell.
00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:16.080
And he compares the flagellar motor to like an outboard motor on a on a boat that has stators and joints and all these kinds of parts that we're familiar with in human engineering.
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:24.080
And these things are all present at the molecular scale in every single cell, whether it's a bacteria, a human cell, a plant cell, doesn't matter.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:32.960
They all have these amazing, irreducibly complex machines, meaning there's not a single part you can take away without the thing breaking down.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:43.840
And of course, that's a great critique to Darwin's theory of evolution because it's saying that you can't just in a stepwise fashion end up with one little piece here that gives a little benefit, another piece.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:44.799
Exactly.
00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.879
It's not a stepwise gradual process.
00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:51.200
It's an all-at-on, all the parts in the same place at the same time.
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.399
Irreducible.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:53.440
Irreducible.
00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:58.320
So I'm seeing concepts like that at the level of the ecosystem.
00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:32.000
When I observe, I read all these papers, right, on different ecological studies around invasive species or things like that, and it seems like the ecosystem itself, let's say it's a mangrove ecosystem or it's a temperate forest like where we are, each of those is irreducibly complex in the sense that there are aspects to the ecosystem, producers like plants, consumers like animals, detritivores like mushrooms, all of these different aspects to the system have to be in place, or else the whole system breaks down.
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:42.960
So it's really fascinating to study the way that these principles of design are present at the level of a single cell, an organism, and even an entire ecosystem.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:48.799
So the irreducible complexity I had heard before, and I love that concept because it points to a designer.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:54.399
It's how to be designed at once, not like a gradual billions of years type thing, we get there eventually.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:59.120
But I'd never ever thought about irreducible complexity in the ecosystem.
00:16:59.200 --> 00:16:59.440
Yeah.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:02.159
I think about it really individually, though it makes sense.
00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:08.799
But in the ecosystem, if you remove one piece of a certain ecosystem, you don't have an ecosystem now.
00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:09.759
It's not gonna work.
00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:10.400
Right.
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:20.400
And I don't know what that looks like exactly, but if you remove this guy who provides this important part, I don't know, the plant or the mushroom or whatever else, now it's irreducible.
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:31.200
Yeah, and the thing that's cool about it is it's not just a kind of academic endeavor, like, oh, it's interesting that the ecosystem is indeed a system with all these different interacting parts.
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:32.559
God's so cool.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:37.839
Yeah, it's not just academic, it it's quite important because um for two reasons.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.720
Number one, the theological implications.
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:53.359
It's like, well, if it's an irreducibly complex system, then that implies that there was a system engineer, a mind that said everything's gotta be in place at the same time for this to work.
00:17:53.680 --> 00:18:14.640
And when you read Genesis 1 and the systematic way in which the biosphere, all the ecosystems together, were created in a matter of days, if you read that very literally, in a matter of days, you've got all these different parts in place plants, animals, sea creatures, birds of the air, everything's there in order for this to be stable.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:15.119
Yes.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:20.799
Um so it's got theological implications for sure, but then it also has research implications.
00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:39.279
And one of the things I've noticed is that when you start thinking of the ecosystem as truly a design system, not something where a bunch of species, as they've evolved and migrated across the globe and ended up in particular collections here and there, that they just find a way to make it work.
00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:40.319
Not that.
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:51.359
So I'll give you just one to kind of give you a little taste.
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.319
So everyone's heard of invasive species.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:00.480
I'm sure everyone can name at least one invasive species in their region because you hear about it in the news.
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:02.960
Sounds like it's gonna be the end of the world if we don't eradicate the.
00:19:04.480 --> 00:19:04.799
There you go.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:05.920
They pay you to go kill them.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:07.359
Yes, that's the Florida man.
00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:07.839
Sorry.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:09.920
Here, yeah, no, that one's great.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:17.680
The here in Washington, um, scotch broom that grows all along the highways, it's this plant that um just takes over.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:18.480
I mean, it's crazy.
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:25.279
My wife, Emily, loves it because it's got beautiful yellow flowers, but that's considered to be a really invasive species.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:35.039
And for decades now, we've treated invasive species as basically a thing that needs to be immediately eradicated.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:39.920
And it's kind of a one-sided view where I mean the name itself implies that it's a negative thing.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.240
It's invaded, it's taking over, we need to remove it, that's our responsibility.
00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.960
But it's much more nuanced than that.
00:19:47.119 --> 00:20:08.880
And one of the things that scientists have discovered is that when we as humans disturb a natural ecosystem through land use or chemical spills or whatever it may be, we oftentimes end up killing some kind of a species or some part of the ecosystem through our use of the land or resources.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:18.400
If we drain a swamp so that we can build a runway, then obviously there are going to be swamp, you know, plants, for example, that can no longer live there.
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:19.359
Those die off.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:23.440
If they're only present in these particular ecosystems, they could even go extinct.
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:42.559
What happens when we disturb an ecosystem and we lose a particular species or a group of species is we oftentimes introduce a new species inadvertently through horticulture, you know, landscaping plants or house plants or any other thing.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:54.640
We we inadvertently introduce a species that ends up being a generalist that can kind of fill in that void that we've created through our own ecological disturbances.
00:20:55.039 --> 00:21:02.799
And that plant or animal, whatever it may be, oftentimes fills that void in a way that actually stabilizes the ecosystem.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:08.960
So you can't do without this particular niche or role in the ecosystem, and so it comes and it fills it very quickly.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:14.480
It looks like it's going to take over and there's gonna be nothing but kudzu left or nothing but Boa constrictors left.
00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:27.839
But it oftentimes these species come in, they fill the void, and then over time, the species that are more specific to that ecosystem end up coming back in and refilling the ecosystem.
00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:30.160
Even without our correct interaction.
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:30.880
Yeah.
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:42.000
And once you know that, then of course our conservation programs, including the EPA, the USDA, um, other conservation programs, can actually aid that natural process.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.720
So rather than fighting it, they aid it.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:52.319
Um so we can we can observe what's going on and say, okay, well, let's start reintroducing the native now that things have stabilized.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.720
Let's bring the wolf back to Washington.
00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:59.599
Let's bring back native plants to replace the Scotch broom along the highway.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.559
Like that.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.880
So it improves our research and improves our ability to conserve the environment, which is a huge part of our calling.
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:08.799
So yeah, it's very exciting.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.720
Yeah, it's so so it is a design ecosystem.
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.039
And and maybe we do mess it up sometimes.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.440
The ecosystem is designed for a reason that it can take care of itself.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:29.279
And the research you're able to do to probably watch that happen over time or see the I don't know what you're looking at, but to see like okay, ecosystems do have a designer to them.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.960
I see that in real life, whether it's along the highway or in a swamp in Florida.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:33.440
That's right.
00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:35.119
It's observable and enjoyable.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:35.440
Yeah.
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:36.480
I enjoyed that though.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.359
I enjoyed that.
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:46.720
I I feel like I don't know, maybe there's something you're gonna write up on this or a podcast you're gonna do with someone else about the irreducible complexity of the ecosystem.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:48.480
I could listen to a lot about it.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:49.119
There's a lot there.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:50.000
It's so cool.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:53.200
And maybe it turns into a sermon when we mix in Genesis 1.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:58.400
We're just looking at this, uh the the way I like to teach it is days one through three, everything is formed.
00:22:58.480 --> 00:22:58.720
Yes.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:00.559
Days four through six, everything's filled.
00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:00.880
Yeah.
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:01.920
Formed and filled.
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.920
Like that I I did not know about irreducible complexity in the ecosystem until today, but it makes sense to form it first.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:08.240
Yep.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:09.039
And then fill it.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:09.759
That's right.
00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:10.640
So cool.
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.680
Um, so the whole point of this, besides just interesting, enjoying the observable facts of science, is to remind us we don't have anything to be afraid of.
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:21.200
Truth has nothing to fear.
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.640
Go find out about science.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.799
Science felt like a bad word to me as a kid because scientists are the ones who hate God.
00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:27.440
No, they're not.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:29.680
Like enter Daniel and Emily and they're friends.
00:23:29.839 --> 00:23:33.119
Like scientists are people who want to know the nature of God.
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.640
And when you learn a lot about science, you're gonna learn about God.
00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:37.359
He's there.
00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:39.039
Go seek, you will find.
00:23:39.359 --> 00:24:00.000
You know, you're you're talking like a uh scientific revolutionary, you know, because if you go back to like the scientific revolution, you have all these people like Newton, Copernicus, Boyle, and they all wrote in a similar way that basically said their study of the natural world is a way to understand the creator and the creation.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:07.200
And so their theological worldview, their belief in God, was what drove them to do research.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:16.240
And there's also something interesting about that, which is that it gave them the confidence to say that the world is orderly because it's created by a single God.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:23.519
It's not a pantheon of gods whose you know conflicting interests exactly have resulted in this world, yeah.
00:24:23.680 --> 00:24:48.799
Yeah, rather it's a single monotheistic God who created everything in union and unity, and so it's orderly, and therefore we can study it using the scientific method, which says that you come up with a hypothesis, you test it, you repeat it over and over again because the laws of physics and nature are orderly, and you're not gonna test one thing today and get one answer and test it tomorrow and get a different answer.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:50.000
It's orderly.
00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:59.200
And at the same time, they believed that humans were a sinful fallen creature, and therefore we are prone to making mistakes.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:05.920
We're prone to hubris and saying, Oh, we've got it all figured out, I've come up with a theory of relativity, and now it's never gonna change.
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:24.640
When in fact, we are often prone to misunderstanding, and so we have to test our theories constantly, and sometimes we need to throw out old theories, sorry, Darwin, and bring in new theories that are that meet the current scientific evidence as it is today.
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:30.720
And so that's cool because the scientific revolutionaries set a standard for how we do science today.
00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:40.400
Be really thorough, test it, count on things being orderly, but also know that you are fallible and be ready to change your theory when new evidence comes on the scene.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:41.759
That's the point of testing.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:42.400
Exactly.
00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:46.240
And now it gets into hermeneutics, don't just test something to make sure I'm right.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.279
Like I was expected.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:47.920
Yeah, right.
00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.720
No, no, do a new test and find out that way you can be sure.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:55.680
And again, when I listened to the One Revelation 2 books, you kept emphasizing modern science.
00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:00.559
And if someone comes to you about quoting something from Darwin's time, like, whoa, you're way behind.
00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.559
Right, we've learned a lot since Darwin's.
00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:03.200
Yes, yeah.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:04.240
Um amazing.
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.880
As you've already caught on, we can talk about science all day.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.920
And what I will say about you, Daniel, is I'm not a science guy.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:10.400
I'm not.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.079
But like when I'm around you, I feel like I am.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:13.119
Like contagious.
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:14.000
It's contagious.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.440
I've never felt that way before until I met Daniel and started talking with him.
00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:26.640
However, Daniel is a person outside of his world in his job and his scientific research, and I want to talk about that because Daniel, growing up, you're a preacher's kid.
00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.119
Yeah.
00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:28.559
One of eight.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:29.279
One of eight.
00:26:29.519 --> 00:26:29.920
One of eight.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.400
Okay.
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:32.559
And in that lineup, you're up there.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:33.519
Oh goodness.
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:34.640
Um three.
00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.119
Three.
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:36.000
Think about it.
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:37.119
Three, I think.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:37.519
Okay.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:39.680
Uh so almost there in the middle of eight kids.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:42.480
Growing up as a preacher's kid is is really interesting.
00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:47.279
There's I'm sure so much you could say about it, but try to hone in on making your faith your own.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.119
Because we know what those preachers' families look like.
00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.359
I can't even imagine actually the eight kids coming in and filling up the row, and probably the expectations that come with that, that's hard.
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:56.079
That's really hard.
00:26:56.240 --> 00:27:01.839
So maybe talk about what that was like for you growing up, the places you've been, and especially how you made your faith your own.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.440
Yeah, so we moved around quite a bit as a family.
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:06.960
I was born in Ohio.
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:10.319
I think we lived, my family lived in Ohio a couple different places.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:24.880
But soon after I was born, I think I was around three when we moved to Tennessee, and we had extended family there, so it was neat to grow up there close to my grandparents', my mom's parents' farm in Murfersboro, and just lots of fond memories from Tennessee.
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:32.559
I just made fried okra a couple nights ago, and the the smell of the boiled okra just literally brought me back to Tennessee.
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:33.519
Oh, I miss it.
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.680
But it was a really great time of life in Tennessee, and then we moved to the East Coast to Rhode Island, Providence area.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:40.000
Wow.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.440
And we're there for many years.
00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.799
That's the longest place I've ever lived until here, Washington.
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.799
And that church was a lot smaller, and our work there, it's like our work was cut out for us, you know, because a smaller church, more work to do.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.359
Lots of ten members just by the way.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:56.240
That's true.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.880
We significantly increased the number.
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.559
So yeah, we moved around a lot.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:06.960
My dad was also just very, like many preachers, very involved in the community.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:22.400
Lots of one-on-one Bible studies in people's homes, in the community, lots of just talking to our next door neighbors and the mailman and anyone he could come across to initiate studies and get people thinking about their eternal lives.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:25.119
And so that was like an everyday part of our life.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:29.359
We were homeschooled for the most part up through like middle school.
00:28:29.920 --> 00:28:40.240
And then sometime in middle to high school, we, depending on where we were in the process of moving or whatever, in my case, it was right around eighth grade that I went to public school.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:59.119
And so even though we were, you know, in public school during those later years and very busy, and all of us are high achievers or getting great grades and very involved in school, at the same time we were expected by my dad, especially to attend these studies with him.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:18.720
So even when it was like a study with an individual in their home, he would also tote along as many of the kids as he could because I think he knew that this was valuable to be exposed to these studies and and more importantly, be exposed to people who are in different places in their life than we were.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:20.240
I think that was really valuable.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.920
It gave me a way of seeing other people differently than I would have otherwise.
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:31.839
I think that I now relate more easily to people who are in a different walk of life than I am.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:33.359
So that was really valuable.
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.319
We spent a lot of time in Bible studies together with people.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:40.799
It also meant that we were extremely busy, gregarious people.
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:47.279
Spent way more time away from home than we did at home, which definitely influences you as an adult.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:49.680
You know, you tend to be as you were as a child.
00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:50.000
Yeah.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.440
I love that he brought you along to those studies, showing the work of an evangelist.
00:29:55.599 --> 00:29:59.920
And it's easy, especially as a preacher's kid, to think, oh, this is it.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:03.119
Like this church building and that pulpit, like that's the work.
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:10.000
And probably your dad's getting a lot of handshakes and high fives on Sunday mornings when he's wearing the tie, and you think, oh, this is this is it.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:16.960
Yeah, that's what dad does, and dad really well is showing you no, no, no, dad does much, much, much, much more than that.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:18.559
Come look at the hard moments.
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.640
Yeah, the people who are struggling, the people who are far from God and need brought in.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.240
Uh I'm trying to imagine they bring in eight kids with the end of some time.
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:28.240
But I'm sure it was I opened it.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:39.039
It was fun, and I think it was encouraging too for for other families, you know, that we were studying with to see that we've got this whole family that's interested in the word and opening the word and studying it.
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:57.839
And the other thing too is that, you know, I I did it helped me see this balance where you know there are some preachers probably who start their you know work on their sermon weeks in advance, or at least, you know, as soon as they finish one sermon, they're starting on the next, and that keeps them busy, you know, for a whole week at least.
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.079
But with my dad, you know, everyone's different.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:14.240
But my dad, he spent the whole week just out and about, and his conversations out by the trash can with the garbage man, I'm sure, were just as important to him as the work that he did at his desk preparing a sermon.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:14.559
Yes.
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:19.680
That was very evident to me because he would never turn down an opportunity to talk with someone about spiritual things.
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:20.079
Yeah.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:27.519
And sometimes as a kid you get annoyed, it's like, yeah, we need to get home, we're at the grocery store, dad's stuck talking with some random person over here.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:42.799
But really, I admire him for placing the value on people, and if that meant that he was cramming for his you know sermon preparation on the Saturday night because he spent all week long meeting with people in the community, good for him.
00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:44.720
You know, yes, good for him.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.680
So amen.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.039
Uh it was Brett Hunter who who said it in kind of a lecture on evangelism.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.000
He said, I'll make my sermon outline on Saturday night every week.
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:54.720
If I can fill my week up with studies, I'm gonna do that.
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.359
We can't be saying, uh, no, don't have time for that right now.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:31:58.319
I gotta be busy preparing.
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.400
Yeah, I gotta work on my slides for Sunday.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:02.160
I got a good joke coming up.
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:03.119
Like it'd be nice.
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:03.839
I would love to do that.
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.559
I love speaking.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:09.519
I love public speaking and sermons, that's important, but it's gotta be an emphasis on going.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:14.160
And for you as a kid to see that dad's not clocking out spiritual time.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:18.079
He's at the grocery store and he's like, I'm not working, and yeah, missing an opportunity.
00:32:18.559 --> 00:32:23.039
It's a lifestyle, who he is, and all of us as evangelists can be like that.
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:24.559
You can take this opportunity.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:26.000
So that's something I've tried to work on.
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.599
Whenever someone wants to talk to me, like salesman, no one likes a salesman.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:34.400
Like when I'm at the mall and they try to talk to me, I say yes just for the evangelistic opportunity.
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:36.799
You know, like the ones with like the lotion in the back, want to try this?
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:38.000
I'm like, okay, sure.
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:39.519
And I'll launch into something.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.039
Like, you've got something you want to pitch to me, like I'll get something way better to show you.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:43.599
That's great.
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:44.559
So take the opportunities.
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:45.519
I gotta meet your dad.
00:32:45.599 --> 00:32:46.160
What's his name?
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:47.119
Tim Reeves.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:48.240
Tim Reeves, okay.
00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:49.920
I know a lot of Reeves, but I haven't met him yet.
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.319
That's a really cool story of how how he raised that's a tough job.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:59.680
Eight kids PK out there in Rhode Island, and then making that that faith your own.
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:01.039
Is that hard for you?
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:02.079
Is it harder or easier?
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:03.279
You know, it was.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:21.839
There was one aspect that was hard, and that is that I think that you know, growing up in a preacher's home, I think there's like a higher expectation placed on you because your behavior, your words, how you dress, how you behave yourself, yeah, that reflects on the preacher.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:37.359
So there's like this higher level of expectation, and I think what came with that for me was a sense of almost like I need to clean up my act before I'm ready to be a part of God's kingdom.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:37.680
Oh.
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:50.720
And so it took a while for me to formally make that commitment to follow Christ and submit myself through baptism because I had a bit of a hang-up about like my sin.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:56.400
I was like, I'm a sinful guy, I need to get my act together so I can be a part of this kingdom.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.480
I can be holy enough.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:02.559
And you know, that's not how my dad preached grace.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:09.360
That's not, but it's kind of just the effect of constantly having this pressure of having to live up to a certain expectation.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:10.559
Of the appearances, yeah.
00:34:11.360 --> 00:34:12.079
That's what they can see.
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:12.400
Yes.
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:13.840
So that's what you put the emphasis on.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.079
Yes.
00:34:14.320 --> 00:34:15.280
It's totally understandable.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:21.679
So that I carried that with me throughout my like teen years, and I remember that we had a gospel meeting.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:23.679
This preacher came from out of town.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:27.840
He gave one lesson on Sunday, and he came up to me.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.400
Here I am, uh like 18-year-old, I believe.
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:40.880
He came up to me and met me at the break between like the Bible study hour and the sermon, and he didn't know that I was Tim Reeves' son, the preacher's son.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:44.719
He just saw a young man, an 18-year-old, sitting by with his friends.
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:46.719
So he came up to me and said, Hey, what's your name?
00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:47.840
I said, I'm Daniel.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:49.039
Oh, nice to meet you.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.719
Uh asked a couple things about myself, and then said, So are you a believer?
00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:54.000
I said, Oh yeah, I believe.
00:34:54.079 --> 00:34:55.039
And he said, Oh, that's great.
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:58.480
So you've been baptized, and said, No, actually, I haven't been baptized.
00:34:58.719 --> 00:34:59.519
He said, Really?
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:01.920
What is it that do you have some doubts?
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.400
And I was like, No, I don't, I don't have any doubts.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.679
And he was like, Well, well then why haven't you been baptized?
00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.320
I was like, ah, it's kind of complicated.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.599
And and he said, Well, what's complicated?
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:19.679
And I was like, Well, I just, you know, there's just things I struggle with that I'm trying to like work on in my life, you know, before I can be ready.
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:28.079
And he I forget exactly how he responded, but the gist that I got from it was being baptized is the starting point.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:33.119
That's like your decision that you want to take the fork in the road down the right path.
00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:38.320
Doesn't matter where you came to that fork, where you are in your life, it could be the worst place ever.
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.280
You're taking the fork in the road and you're heading down the right path.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:43.119
Starting the other.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:48.559
And it's a journey, but you start there, and that's where the work begins.
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:52.960
And really, the work is is not yours to do in a sense.
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:57.840
It's submitting yourself to Christ and letting Him guide you in the right path.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.159
And that was such a refreshing take.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:02.960
It's not that it's different than what I had learned.
00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:13.440
It just, I don't know, it just came from a fresh perspective, a fresh voice, and I went home that day and was very convicted and was baptized later that same day.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:14.000
Wow.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:21.440
Yeah, it was once I realized the simplicity of God's grace, it was a very decision easy decision to make, right?
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:22.000
Yes.
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.599
But it took several years to kind of work through some of the misunderstandings I had there.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:31.039
So I think it's a good lesson on the impact a stranger can have.
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:34.320
A lot of times I think I can only have impact on people that I've known forever.
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:34.639
Yeah.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:39.440
Sometimes that fresh perspective does come from a stranger to just ask the easiest basic questions.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:41.280
So I love that that happened for you.
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:42.480
You thought about it.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:43.199
Oh, yes.
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:44.480
Yeah, I do want that.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:46.159
I can like grace is the beginning.
00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.119
That's what we're talking about today.
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.320
Grace and obedience.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:48.960
Right, exactly.
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:51.440
Obedience is gonna be really, really hard without the grace part.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:57.599
You know, there is a a member of the church there at the time who had come from a really rough past.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:37:04.159
He was a recent convert, and his life, you know, did just a total 180 when he came to Christ.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:04.800
Cool.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:06.320
And we all knew that about him.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.039
It was such a cool story of redemption.
00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:21.920
But he was there present for my baptism, and he came up to me afterwards and congratulated me, and he said, It must feel so weird, you know, as a preacher's kid being baptized, it must feel so weird because nothing really changes.
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:29.679
And I just, you know, I I know what he meant, but I just had to kind of laugh because I just I told him I was like, no, everything changes.
00:37:29.920 --> 00:37:30.480
Nothing changes.
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:47.280
Like j it doesn't matter whether you're a preacher's kid or you were raised by the staunchest atheist, everything changes because the guilt is lifted, the the fear is lifted, the pressure of having to like direct your own steps, which is really awful.
00:37:47.599 --> 00:37:51.679
All of that's lifted, and you now have a savior who's like, I'll guide you, follow me.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:53.360
It's a starting point for everyone.
00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:53.760
That's right.
00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:54.960
And that's what we read in the book of Acts.
00:37:55.039 --> 00:37:56.320
Like, oh, this is where it starts.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.000
It's not, ooh, you've really messed up.
00:37:58.079 --> 00:37:59.119
We're gonna have to baptize you.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:00.400
That's our only shot.
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:01.840
Like, oh, your PKO, you'll be good.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:02.000
Right.
00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:04.639
No, no, this is the starting point for everyone.
00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:05.119
Yeah.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.960
Yeah, and that's where it changes.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:08.719
Okay, Daniel, bring us home.
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:10.880
We've reached the favorites section.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:12.000
What do you got?
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:17.760
My favorite verse, that's probably the easier one to answer, is Jeremiah 17, 7.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:18.079
Oh.
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:31.280
This verse came to me, or I came across it at a pivotal point in my life where I felt like I needed, really needed to lean into my faith and my relationship with God.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:43.920
And what actually stood out to me were the preceding verses where it says that the man who I'm paraphrasing, but the man who trusts in man is like a shrub in the desert who will see no good come.
00:38:44.320 --> 00:39:11.360
But and this is the the part I'm referring to, chapter 17, verse 7, the man who trusts in Yahweh, whose trust is Yahweh, will be like a tree planted by the water, which sends out its roots by the stream, and does not fear when the heat comes, for its leaves remain green, and is not anxious in the era of drought, for it does not cease to bear fruit.
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:28.239
And that was that was such an uh encouraging verse to come across to realize that if I just lean into my relationship with God, into that life-giving stream, I don't have to worry about the heat, the drought, the whatever it may be, I'll have this constant source of life.
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:41.760
Jeremiah 177 is not one that you like see on the wall or like listed, you know, with like the other verses uh at Hobby Lobby, but it really feels like Proverbs 3, 5, which is my favorite verse.
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.239
Oh yeah.
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:45.760
And then Psalm 1, like a tree planted by the water.
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:48.000
It feels like both of those back to back combined.
00:39:48.320 --> 00:39:49.360
Wow, amazing.
00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:54.320
And yeah, that you quoted it very close to what my NASB has here, so it must be verbatim.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:55.840
I think this is ESV, yeah.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:56.880
Yeah, that's what you've got.
00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:57.599
Uh fantastic.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:39:59.440
Jeremiah 17 at 7.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.639
Uh I had to look it up.
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:02.880
Probably you will too if you're listening to it.
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:03.840
So that's one to know.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.159
Get that on the memory verse list.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:10.639
Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord and whose trust is the Lord.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.079
With those capital letters.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:12.960
That's Yahweh.
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:14.320
Okay, last one.
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:15.599
This one's harder.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:16.719
Okay, hands harder.
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:24.719
I would say, you know, one that has always stood out to me is the song God Incarnate Can It Be.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:33.519
And I'm not even sure that that one's in our hymnal here in Bremerton, so it's probably less familiar to people listening here.
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.760
But that song just always hits me hard.
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:41.679
It it goes something like this God incarnate can it be?
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:44.079
Ponder now the mystery.
00:40:44.400 --> 00:40:49.440
He, the fount of eternal life, must drink the cup of mortality.
00:40:49.760 --> 00:40:51.840
Emmanuel, God with us.
00:40:52.480 --> 00:41:05.679
And then the last verse, God creator, now created, Lord of all in infancy, hands that lighted the evening stars reach out for comfort in Mary's arms.
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:07.599
Emmanuel, God with us.
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:09.679
Is this amazing song?
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:11.440
I mean, it just gives me shivers.
00:41:11.679 --> 00:41:18.639
Every time I think about it, that the creator of the universe who created everything came down as a created thing.
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:22.480
The same hands that lit the stars are now reaching out for comfort from Mary.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:29.679
I mean, just what a sacrifice to create everything and then to come down into that creation for mankind.
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.199
It just blows my mind.
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:35.280
Goosebumps, all the feelings, tears come to the eyes.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:36.880
That's where we'll leave it.
00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:38.000
That was a great one.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:38.800
I don't know that one.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:41.760
I don't know that one, so maybe we can learn it.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:44.239
But God incarnate, can it be?
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:46.639
Something maybe we take for granted sometimes.
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:47.599
This is amazing.
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:55.679
So thank you for taking us through that journey of creation and science and your interacting with the observable, enjoyable world as well as the word.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:57.119
Daniel, thank you so much for it.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:57.599
Absolutely.
00:41:57.679 --> 00:41:58.079
This is fun.
00:41:58.239 --> 00:41:58.559
It was fun.
00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.199
Oh, good.
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:00.079
I'd love to hear that.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:06.159
The Bible tells us to consider one another in order to stir up love and good works in each other.
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:11.840
So thank you for stirring up love and good works in me just by listening to this episode.
