speaker-0: You know, I was just, I was always a guy that never asked for help. I always did it on my own. I always figured things out on my own. I never asked for help from anybody for anything for a long time. So I had to get over that. You know, the stuff that we do is hard and there's a very small percentage of people that, that get to the point where we're at and the levels that we're at. And you can't do that on your own. need help. Hard work will get you far, but it will not get you all the way to where you need to go. You you got to ask for help and you need someone to help you on your journey. And you've been that for me. So, so I recommend people reach out. This is Conquer Contractor Chaos. Built for the contractor that's ready to run a business that works for them and creates the life they've been fighting for. Tune in to get the tools, systems, and the strategies that are battle proven to set you free. One move each episode, straight talk, things you can use today. Take your time back, be home for dinner, lead your crew, love your family, conquer the chaos.
speaker-1: work. Welcome back to the Conquer Contractor Chaos show. Today I'm joined by my friend and Brave Academy member, Kevin McCarthy. Kevin is the founder and CEO of Legacy Wardrobes, a luxury closet brand that is making waves in the Philly luxury home scene. Featured in Faces of Design 2025 in Philly, Kevin's also a father, husband, and a true example of an entrepreneur. Kevin, thanks for joining us, man. Welcome to the show.
speaker-0: What's up, Lee? Excited to be here with you,
speaker-1: Hell yeah, buddy. Hell yeah. Kevin, give us the, give us like the 30 second elevator pitch. Like who are you? Who is Legacy Wardrobes? What do you guys do?
speaker-0: Sure. I'm Kevin McCarthy, owner of Legacy Wardrobes and Closets, and we design, fabricate, and install home storage solutions for people all over the Philadelphia area.
speaker-1: straight off the flyer there, ⁓ That's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And I think, I think you're totally doing that. And I think Kevin undersells the impact that his business is having in Philadelphia. You know, when it comes to custom storage solutions, some of the work that you guys pump out is absolutely breathtaking. You know, like every post you guys put on Instagram, I'm like, I need this in my life. I want this in my life. And I, you know, I comment on it and I always get hit with your, ⁓ your bot saying, if you want clogs, it's book an appointment. I'm like, ⁓ where's your kid?
speaker-0: My favorite is when the bots start talking to each other. So we'll have other like trade guys that like have, you know, their own bots. So my bot will respond and then their bot will say, well, if you're interested in painting, hang on and you know, or send your information. So it's pretty comical. I don't know how I feel about the bots. I gotta be honest with you.
speaker-1: I think the great good one is selling to a human, but when you show up at your house one day and your house has been repainted and you didn't even schedule it, that's probably where the challenge comes. But yeah, I mean, that's good. If you listen to our podcast episode with Glenn Chu, obviously AI is becoming a thing, which is pretty cool. We've never had that before and it's never been easier to run a business, which is cool. But anyway, these are all systems that over time, you know, as a busy closet maker, cabinet maker, plumber, carpenter, electrician, whatever you are. the systems that you do have to adopt. And it's funny how we're learning in real time, the kind of quirks of these things, right, Kev?
speaker-0: For sure.
speaker-1: I want to, I want to kick this podcast off by, by just saying that I fully understand the importance of your time right now and how much I appreciate the fact that you carved out a little bit of time to sit down with me. And here's, here's the reason why guys, if you're listening in, Kevin is in the middle of a pivotal transition from his old shop to his new shop. We're going to get into that story in a minute here, but right now Kevin is deep in the thick of it. He's designing a showroom. He's hiring staff, he's putting together a new shop. Kevin, give the guys a rundown of what's going on in your life right now.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. Well, first of all, Lee, mean, I'm sure we'll get into it. I appreciate that you are, you know, thoughtful about my time, but in all honesty, I would not be in the position that I am without you. So we'll start with that first. I wouldn't be doing all these things had we not met, had I not reached out to you. And you know, we had the relationship that we've had over the last few years. So it's my pleasure to be here. And it's the least I could do in, in my opinion. So yeah, we're, currently, we move shops. We bought a new edge bander. We moved our CNC machine over to the new shop. We're producing there and we're in the process of renovating and getting ready to open a new showroom. We had a small showroom previously. This is a much larger one in a much better neighborhood. And yeah, we got a lot going on.
speaker-1: 100%. Just for numbers here, your shop that you're moving out of was what size and the shop that you've just moved into is what size.
speaker-0: So my video wasn't working so you couldn't see me laughing, but the shop that we moved out of was 2,500 square feet and we moved into a 8,000 square foot shop.
speaker-1: 8,000, 2500 to 8,000 square feet. That's wild. That is wild.
speaker-0: We shouldn't have been in at 2,500 square feet. We shouldn't have moved a long time ago.
speaker-1: For sure. Why did you have to move, Kevin?
speaker-0: So, you know, I think the space that we had in our shop became the bottleneck. We couldn't produce as much as we needed to produce in that shop and we had to move. had no other choice.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. We'll get into the move and the showroom and all that stuff in a little bit here, but I think it's important to stress to the guys who are listening to the show that this has not came easy. There has been a lot of stress testing and bootstrapping at the old shop, pushing as much as we can from our team, from our people, from our equipment, you know, from our vendors to get to this point where we finally had to pull the trigger and say, like, let's go, we have to go. you know, and the right opportunity came up and then things just kind of moved a million miles an hour, you know, from the idea of we should move to we have a new place, right?
speaker-0: That's right. mean, you know, I had to make some quick decisions, which, which we made, but yeah, no, definitely didn't come easy. Lee, I started in my basement of a row house in Philly. So yeah. And my first job was 300 square feet, which was all I could afford carved out of a commercial warehouse here in Philly. So yeah, bootstrap for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, faking it until we make it. So since we're, since we're in the past, right? Like, take me back a little bit further than that. Like take me back to, you know, childhood, you know, growing up. Like, what was that like for you? And are you, you were born in Philly Kev?
speaker-0: That's right, born and raised.
speaker-1: Yeah. So take me back, like what did childhood look like for you, Kevin?
speaker-0: Well, if we're going all the way back, Lee, I born in Philadelphia, had a little bit of a rough upbringing. think a lot of guys that kind of came from where I came from had a little bit of a rough upbringing. So yeah, it's kind of like a little bit of a rocky story, I guess, a little bit for me, which I guess a lot of people in the city have.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think if we could get one point across in this podcast episode as we talk, I want to show guys that it doesn't matter where you came from and that everybody has a fair shake. know, for those of you who don't know, right? Like, you know, when it comes to growing up and it comes to your childhood, you know, like there's there's a million reasons why you should fail and only very few that you can succeed in. And I think Kevin is a really good testament to that, that despite everything that went on in your childhood, things that happened, growing up, know, rough childhood, that you're making it, right? Like you're breaking the mold. Would that be fair to say?
speaker-0: For sure. Absolutely. would say that if you, you know, it's funny, sometimes I, I'll have ⁓ my older son with me and we'll run into people that, that know me and kind of know where I came from. And they're always shocked. They're always shocked and surprised at how well I'm doing.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think now that obviously you've got kids now. So, you know, now the reason why we're going through all this craziness of new shops, you know, it kind of puts things in a bit of a different light when you've got kids, because now we're doing it for them. And if I can remember right, I remember there was a time and this is way back when we first started coaching a couple of years back where you said to me, you were like, hey, I really, I really want to put my kid into private school. You know, I don't want them going into public school. I want them to get like a good education. And I remember that you were really worried about not vibing with the other parents at that private school. Do you remember that?
speaker-0: I do.
speaker-1: Do me a favor, just explain, what does the pick-up line look like at your kid's school now?
speaker-0: There's a big legacy wardrobe truck in the line, that's for sure.
speaker-1: Mercedes, Mercedes, Maserati, legacy wardrobe pickup truck. Which is cool because I mean I remember putting that on your your goal board as you know get our kid into private school like start putting some money inside start following the profit first model we've came a long way to get into this point now but it does seem like time has just blinked and we are here now but yeah we
speaker-0: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha about college too. mean, we talked about, you know, getting ready for college. That was one of our plans. And, you know, we're putting our oldest through right now. So our youngest is in private school as well. And our oldest is going through college and you know, we're able to take care of that bill.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Which was a real fear way back in the day, but I mean, you're making it happen. It's funny, you know, like you're, you were so afraid of rubbing shoulders with some of those kind of more affluent people in the school. And yet, you know, you're becoming one yourself. But from a, from a, from a, I don't want to say, how do I word this? I would probably say you're coming to this like you earned it, you know, with a sense of, you know, growing up broke. and not having everything handed to you as a kid yourself. You're giving it to your children with an appreciation ⁓ of, you need to appreciate what you're being given here. And I think that's super cool. That's what we all want for kids.
speaker-0: Yeah, mean, think, I think, you know, I think coming where, where I come from, where a lot of guys come from, it's, it's an easy excuse. It's an easy excuse to say, I'm not going to fit in or I'm not like them or, know, how could, how could you expect me to do anything? Look where I come from. ⁓ and it's, it's an easy thing. It's an excuse. I leaned on for a long time. I mean, I remember, I remember saying like, you know, I'm not that in the money. I don't really, I don't really care about money that much, you know, because like I didn't know how to make it, you know? And like, just, I just think it's a, it's a really easy built in excuse that, that a lot of people use and something you have to get past and something I'm still working on getting past.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, this is something this is something that we fight with every day. And I mean, we're not really talking like Kevin's not going home like Scrooge McDuck and diving into a pile of gold coins every night. I think I think it's safe to say that Kevin's created an opportunity in his closet business to afford him certain things that he didn't have as a kid so that he can give a better life to his children. And think that's super cool. you know, we kind of like we've went kind of deep on your background before, know, for those of you that don't know much about my background, you know, we lost my dad when I was 11, he committed suicide when I was 11, you know, which had its whole, whole own host of problems afterwards with single mother, three kids, small apartment, you know, in a rough area back home in Scotland. We had to do whatever we had to do to survive, you know, it wasn't just my mom's job. to go out and get money. was also our job to go out and get money. And I'll tell a little story here, but one of the things that we got into in order to feed ourselves was selling pirate DVDs, which started when I was 11, 11 and a half, getting in and selling every Sunday, dude, at these, I don't know what you guys call them. We call them car boot sales. Basically, it's like a Sunday market where everybody pulls up with their car and they sell whatever they've got. It's like a flea market, right? And yeah, we used to do that. Me and my older brother would do that. We'd make some money. We'd take it home. You know, my mom still had my younger brother at the time. He was a baby. You know, there's seven years difference between me and my younger brother. So he was only five years old when this was going on. But yeah, we had to bitch drop it. You know, I remember in every single phase of life, I have had to work in some form, whether when I was at high school, you know, I would, the lunch bell would go, I would run to the place where everybody got their sandwiches from and I would go help them make sandwiches for a little bit of money. You know, I sold cigarettes on the side. I was, you know, I used to chip people's playstations and Xboxes when they first came out. It was a hustle, you know, growing up and even, even into my twenties, it was You know, we were, we were always on the other side of the bar, you know, watching everyone else out partying and spending their paychecks and having fun. And I'm like, I need to work. need to work. need to work. I honestly have been working since I was about seven years old with my grandfather and his antique business. But yeah, dude, like it's, it's crazy how easy some people have it and how hard others. And I always find that the adversity that, that you face when you're young builds so much character. that almost in a sense you kind of deserve a lot of success later on. You know what mean?
speaker-0: Well, I don't think I deserve anything. I try not to take, mean, I hear what you're saying. I definitely don't take that, that kind of mindset like that. I deserve something, but I hear exactly what you're saying. It's funny cause I haven't heard that story before. And from you, we haven't really got too personal, but it makes a lot of sense to me and probably why we vibe the way we do. Because I think like, I think for guys like us, we, you know, it could all, I kind of day to day, I like, feels like it could all go away. I've been there. I feel like I can lose it at any moment. So that's kind of part of the struggle too. It's like, it's like, ⁓ you know, the success or any success that I have, it's fleeting for me. I don't really celebrate. I don't really celebrate it. Cause I feel like.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I haven't gotten anywhere and it could be all be gone tomorrow unless I get to the next level. So unfortunately that's kind of the way I operate more fortunately. ⁓ and I think that you could, I think you can take those things. I think it's guys like us that if we're able to overcome those obstacles, we can really draw from, from those experiences and it makes us stronger. So I've come over the years. to instead of looking at those types of situations that we had to endure in our early years as something that was against us, that caused us hardships to actually one of my strengths. Because I can look back and say, I got to where I am and I started here. ⁓ And I can draw a lot of strength from that.
speaker-1: Yeah. I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left, you know, myth of truth. But I think you're right, man, for sure. And like I said, know, it puts it into two clear paths for guys who have that upbringing is either, you you fall to the level of your childhood, you're upbringing your experiences and you use it as an excuse not to perform or you harness the power of that and say, I am going to do everything opposite. I'm going to be more, want more, push harder, you know, do the thing. And I think that's super cool. And I wouldn't wish, it's a shame because I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I wouldn't wish what I went through as a kid, what my brothers went through as a kid is what you went through as a kid. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. But at the same time, it gives me a bit of context as to why, you know, gives me a bit of context as to why. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, let's let's get to the point where, you know, tell me about young Kevin. Like, how did how did you get into cabinetry and woodworking and furniture? Like, where did it start for you? How old were you and where did it start?
speaker-0: So, I mean, you know, for me, again, like, so both my parents were, were drug addicts in Philly, in Kensington, which is a rough area known throughout the world as one of the biggest drug areas and, know, in the country. And, ⁓ I was orphaned at a pretty young age and mostly raised by my grandmother. We were kind of bounced around with different family members. And I actually. was on my own for a lot of that time. luckily I had a wonderful grandmother that was always there for me and took care of me without her. I definitely would not be where I'm at. So she was always kind of there to help me out when I needed it. But most of my time was kind of on my own trying to figure things out and heading down some wrong paths along that way. I never made it through high school. So I actually dropped out of school in ninth grade. I was such a bad kid that they didn't really care. So no one ever came looking for me. I just stopped going to school and that was it. And started working trades when I was pretty young. So I had to earn money. when I was probably my first trade job when I was like 14, 15 years old. So I would kind of work here or there, get into trouble kind of. kind of float around. And I did that for a long time, times in my life where I got a lot of trouble. But I always had that always had that trade kind of background. One thing I always had, which I was really lucky is I knew how to work. And I could work hard. I kind of knew what that was always. Luckily, I had an uncle that was a really hard worker. So I did have a couple, even though I didn't have a lot in my life, I had a couple positive influences, a couple role models and I could see like, you could work hard at it and make it. But, uh, it really took until I met my wife in my late twenties that I kind of became an entrepreneur. Before that, I was a helper remodeling bathrooms, demoing plaster walls, picking up trash. Basically did that for a long time.
speaker-1: And then you met your, you met your wife and she was the turning point for it. She, she put you in a, how do I say this? She stabilized you. Is that, is that the term?
speaker-0: Well, I mean, so basically what happened, Lee, was I got my wife pregnant before she was my wife. so I had, ⁓ you know, I had it. was kind of a turning point for me. And I decided at that time, it's funny because I don't remember doing this, but a few years ago, she brought it up to me because she found it in her closet. A letter I wrote to her. after we found out that she was pregnant. And it was a letter that I said, you know, she wouldn't actually let me read it. She just kind of told me about it. So I don't remember what I wrote exactly. Yeah, I've been with my wife for almost 20 years now. So at that time, I basically wrote a letter saying, Hey, I promise that I'm going to take care of you. And, you know, and she was crying. when she brought it, when she was talking about it, because she had reread it, it reminded her and she said, she said, and you know, you did. And I think at that time, back then it was like a decision, you know, I had to pass the go down. was either like, figure this out with her and take care of her and have a family and all the things I never had or continue down the path that a lot of my friends and people that I knew went down, which was to, you know, prison or dead. And I picked the right path,
speaker-1: Yeah. They say that they say that your your entire entrepreneur success lies in the person that you choose to marry. And I think that's definitely, I definitely see this as well as you're only as good as your support system at home. And I'm so glad that you met her. Cause look at you now and look at what you're doing now and the opportunities that you're creating for your people. think that's super inspiring. Dude, I honestly do. There's actually two points to this. There's one is guys, if you're listening to this podcast, go hug your wife. And second is call your grandma and tell her you love her, you know, because I think having that stability, you know, matriarchal stability in your life really. really helps you be a better human being. So she came into your life, you know, you guys are pregnant, first one's on the way. That was your moment to say, I need to get my shit together, double dime. When did you walk into cabinetry?
speaker-0: So, so at that time I was, I was a helper. wasn't making much money. I was, you know, I don't know at that time, maybe making $15 an hour or something. And I had to, I had to get it together, you know, no education. I could work, but I didn't really necessarily, you know, have, a trade. I hadn't worked at a couple. actually worked previously to meeting my wife for, for a closet company doing installations. So I had a little of that behind me. I really like, yeah. So I really, did that for a little while. I really, so I kind of had been exposed to it. I really liked churn carpentry. I really liked molding. I felt like like that, that was something I could do. So back then I just started, I was a helper and I started working on nights and weekends doing side jobs. So cabinet installations, crown molding, and started building some things myself in my basement of my house.
speaker-1: Bye. And so when and you did cabinish, because I remember when we when we first started, which was about well, what was that? Twenty twenty three, twenty, twenty four.
speaker-0: think it's been about three years.
speaker-1: It has been about three years. know you've been, you've been with me for a while. It's been incredible to watch you come on this journey, but yeah, 2023, when we had just met, you had kind of decided, right, okay, I'm done with the cabinetry side and you were just making that transition into more specific closet and wardrobes, right? I remember you were doing your cost cards for the first time and you said, I realized that my wardrobe specifically is dragging down my GPM, you know, like, and you just learned what GPM was. And it was like music to my ears when that happened. What was happening at the time where you decided, I'm going to jump into coaching and get some help here? Like what was going on in the business? What was going on with you? You know, what made you pull the trigger and jump in?
speaker-0: Yeah. So, you know, as I had moved forward and, know, I wound up hiring people. got a small shop space at one point and that kind of moved up, but, you know, I beat my head against the wall for, 10 years, probably. I mean, it's all the old sayings that I know now from having a coach and researching and learning is, on, you know, I basically owned a job at that point. So I worked, I made a little bit of money, but I had no idea. zero education, no idea gross profit or profit or anything. just knew, I knew how to work. So I worked a lot. I worked really hard. I tried hiring people and I kind of scaled up a little bit and then that didn't work out and had to let them go and went back to working by myself. I did that a couple of times and I got to the point where working hard just didn't cut it anymore. And I could see, I could see a train coming at me, you know, down the tunnel. And I knew, I knew that I couldn't continue the way I was going and be able to keep my promise to my wife. So it got to, I had some dark days along the way. I had some really dark days before I met you, even when I was a, you know, business owner in quotes, working for myself, you know, it was, it was, you know, had some dark days where I, you know,
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-0: Before I you, Lee, it was... not to be dramatic, but you know, it was definitely almost a life and death situation for me. I had to figure out how to make this work. There was no other path for me. So that's kind of, you know, was, was basically all of it. So working for myself, going through everything that I did in my entrepreneurial journey and reaching out to you was all just desperation.
speaker-1: Hmm.
speaker-0: Certainly.
speaker-1: I think it comes to, you know, like if you were gonna drown, the last thing that's sticking out the water is your hand, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. I remember, I remember those early days. And I mean, I don't think that there's, know, your darkest day today is in comparison to your darkest day back in the beginning is like night and day now. You know, but at the same time, you know, and you said this on your last coaching call, you were like, you know, we're, we're just attacking this thing and burning the bridges as we go. I think, I think you use some profanity when you said it, but we're burning the bridges. We've got no choice. We have to keep moving. We have to keep going. And I want to unpack that mindset a little bit for, the guys who are listening to this show, right? The ones who are struggling, who are thinking of packing it in, like, what advice would you give to them? How do you maintain that mindset? Or are you just like, just pure stubbornness at this point?
speaker-0: Well, I mean, the mindset for me, that mindset for me is reality. I make this work and I keep my promises and I take care of my family. And the alternative to that is I don't even want to think about it's not an alternative. I don't have a choice, right? We burn the boats. This is it. We've got to make this happen. And, ⁓ And realistically, Lee, I think that has been more of a help to me than anything else. There is no other alternative. I mean, I'm not going back to my ⁓ cushy job. I didn't start this career on a whim or this business on a whim. This is all I've got and I have to make it work. And there is no alternative to that. That's my mindset.
speaker-1: Yeah. I love that, dude. I love that. It's almost like you're putting the blinders on so that you can only look forward. I think that's super cool. I want to talk a little bit about the business now. And then I've got actually sent out a little bit of an email to some of our other clients, guys who are in the program, who are really looking up to you, right? They see you on our coaching calls. They see you in our mastermind sessions. They hear from you in the school group and they look at Kevin like a closet God, you know, like I want to be like him. So we're to cover some questions that they asked as well, but I want to get a sense of, you know, the business, who do you have, you know, What are you doing? Maybe touch on some of the market and stuff that you guys are doing. I don't want to go too deep. We want to leave some stuff, you know, to the program. However, you know, just to recap where we kind of left off, because Kevin came into coaching for a bit and then he took a break and a lot happened during that break. Can you break that down for us, Kev? Like we were coaching for a little bit. I was trying to teach you about gross profit and systems and process. You you decided to go off on your own for a little bit. Can you tell us that story?
speaker-0: So we were coaching for a bit. I had hired a salesperson and... made a mistake in that hire. And it led me into some, some kind of desperate financial times. It's kind of crazy. She, she, I thought it was just, was, it was my fault. It was just, it was just the wrong, wrong person. And yeah, so I stopped coaching for a little while just to kind of like dig in, do some hard work and get myself back to where I needed to be.
speaker-1: But you had a taste for it. You had a taste for having support on the sales side, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so nowadays, let's fast forward to now. What does the team look like?
speaker-0: That's right. So we currently have 12 employees, including myself. We have two, two man install crews, an installation manager, a shop manager, two shop workers, a design engineer that does a little bit more than just engineering. He's, he's kind of dipping his toe into a general manager type situation. We have myself and we have a superstar salesperson. So the problem I had before the new person ⁓ I found was a gift from God in comparison. So she's amazing. And we recently in the last few months hired an administrator to kind of like sales support and general office administration. And we're actually trying out a new installer and getting ready to spin up a third install group.
speaker-1: Bye. 12 people, right? And coming from, think when we first started, it was you and three other guys, you know, it's a small team. What's the difference in the way that you led your crew and who you let into your business back then? And no, like what's the difference in your mindset of who you let into this business? You know, what does it look like? What did it look like and what does it look like now?
speaker-0: So what it, what it looked like before was very reactionary. I'm going to start using the terms that I've learned from you Lee over the years. So because your voice rings in my head every day now, but it was very reactionary and it was just chaos. And I mean, we still have a fair share of chaos, but it's a little more controlled these days. Back then it was just. pure chaos. Every day I would walk in and in the morning and to, you know, just face a barrage of problems and issues and what are we going to do about this? And I was just, just, just daily putting out fires constantly all day long, seven days a week. So, so what it looks like today is, know, we still have our fair share of fires. We're still implementing systems and learning as we go, but the questions don't come to me anymore. I'm at a, you know, I kind of, I kind of lead from the rear a bit. And, know, another lesson I learned from you is just finding the right people, letting them use their strengths to run the business. I stand back, let them do their thing and ask a lot of questions along the way.
speaker-1: So A players, A players only now.
speaker-0: Definitely and I've learned what an A player is. Yeah, it looks like
speaker-1: I'm going to jump into coach mode for a second for the guys who are listening to this podcast because this is a fundamental lesson in what an A player is. And the reason why I want to talk about this for a second is because your only perception of what an A player is, is how you compare yourself to others. Cause you assume that you are an A player. And it's got nothing to do with skill set. It's got nothing to do with being able to build cabinets, know, install toilets, put up drywall is nothing to do with technical skill and everything to do with attitude and core values. And Kevin, you've seen that, right? You've seen core values. We talked about core, but I actually remember doing your strat call and saying, Hey, let's design some core values. And you kind of, you were kind of like, why do we need those? You know, how important are like when you're looking for A players now, like how important is that? you know, compared to say expertise in building closets or cabinets.
speaker-0: I mean, I've learned and I understand now it's the most important thing. mean, coming where I came from, I always kind of viewed a lot of like core values and, and, meetings and all that kind of stuff that, you know, we initially started talking about a lot of that stuff and I kind of blew it off for a while because I just, it just didn't feel like me. didn't feel, it didn't feel like that's kind of like who I was. I was just kind of. a guy that came in, I'm a trade guy, I get it done. You know, when I came up in the trades, was basically people just calling you an idiot, you know, for eight hours a day. And, know, you know, where it almost comes to like fistfights on a job site, because you brought the wrong amount of change back from lunch for a guy. Like it was rough back in the day. And that was kind of like what I thought you yell at people, you kind of tell them what to do. And then, you know, now we have more meetings than then it's unbelievable the amount of meetings that we have now. And I've come full circle on that. think it's really important where I used to kind of make fun of it and say that wasn't me. I find myself in meetings asking questions and realize how helpful they are and realize how having the right people in those meetings, how important it is.
speaker-1: Absolutely, absolutely. And it must be pretty proud moment for you to be able to sit on those meetings and listen to your guys and real time grow your business for you.
speaker-0: It's surreal. mean, I, some ways I still feel like, like, um, a bit of a fraud. Cause I, like, as I sit there and I hear people, you know, talking, you know, the, people that were lucky enough to have working with us, I, you know, I definitely feel, I feel a little tinge of like, like, is this real? Like, am I really sitting at this table and these people are running this business? And, and, um, yeah, I definitely have that little bit of, uh, of like, um, imposter syndrome, you know, but still so I that's something that I need to get over but But yeah, that's where we're at
speaker-1: I love that man. It's been really cool to watch you, watch you put these things in place, even though they have taken traditionally longer than some other clients in the program. We have a track records of planting seeds six months before we need them, which is kind of cool. You know, I'll drop a topic on Kevin, Kevin will, you know, push it off and then it'll come back six months later and be like, ⁓ shit, we needed this. We actually needed this, you know. And it's not like a, told you so kind of situation is, is, you know, I think I've developed a pretty cool way of working with Kevin where I know what he's going to need in six months and I'll kind of drop stuff in advance before I need it. And Kevin has to learn the hard lesson in between. But I think that comes from, you know, you need the appreciation of why you would need a system or a process or a document or a meeting or a set of core values, which is, which has been super cool, you know, and I don't want to push that on anyone in our coaching sessions that. You know, I'm right. Look at all this cool stuff I've got. Look at all this stuff that I've done. You know, like I learned the same lessons that Kevin, that Kevin went through. learned the same lessons. What most of you guys go through every single day. And I felt either the financial, physical or emotional pain, you know, so it becomes easier to see it coming. And it's safe to say that the way that Kevin's growing his business is when he fixes a problem, he's fixing it so that it never comes back up again, because you've seen what happens when you. just react and put a bandaid on things. You know, now you're a lot more open to systems and process and A players and core values. And think that's amazing. I do want to talk about one of your A players and then get into, into the shop, but tell me, tell me about, and what was an A player to you now, now that you've experienced it.
speaker-0: I mean, I think the number one thing, the number one attribute of an A player is someone that takes ownership in the business and they treat it like it's their own. And I try to foster that in people because I mean, I literally view it that way. So we're at the point now where this is no longer mine. I'm not the best at anything. anymore. I'm not the best CNC operator. I'm not the best crown molding installer. I'm not the best salesperson. You know, there's there's people that are better at all those things in the business now. You know, I, I, I find it's just, you know, finding those people that, know, that that want to be a part of the thing that we have that they don't want a job, they want to be a part of legacy wardrobes. and they're excited by what we do. And it's my job, I feel like now to keep that excitement going and keep growing and doing new things and exciting projects and really engaging in different ways that keeps that excitement going.
speaker-1: Yeah. Something pretty cool happened with your team recently, right? I think you posted about it on LinkedIn and this is coming off of legacy wardrobes being featured in Faces of Design Philadelphia for 2025. They did an article on Kevin. What did your team do, Kev?
speaker-0: They framed the article that was in a magazine and gave it to me for Christmas, which was pretty awesome. And a little note, it was really cool.
speaker-1: What did the note say?
speaker-0: It said, thanks for building something cool enough to be in a magazine and letting us be a part of it.
speaker-1: That's amazing, dude. That's absolutely unreal. And it comes back to those intrinsic values, right? One of the core lessons that we typically teach is like, build your business based on those intrinsic values. And then you're, you know, it's not relying on things like money. Intrinsic values being, build something that gives people that sense that they're part of something much bigger than themselves. that they can be genuine with what they can do and what they can't do. And they know exactly what they're competent at and what they're not competent at, right? They don't have to lie about who they are or what they do for a living. They feel like they're making progress towards a big goal or they're on path of achieving their vision, whether like through you or whether that's the same vision that you have. And then supplemented with, you know, money and status, beauty. I mean, you can't really do much of a beauty for your team, but you can definitely give them opportunities to make more money and definitely give them opportunities to climb the ladder and get more status. But I think one thing that you've really done is, adopted that intrinsic value of, of building something that's worth being a part of, you know, and I think that comes down to you and your intentional culture building. So culture nowadays, like what, you know, when you, when you hear the word culture, Kevin, like, what does it mean? Like, what does culture look like in legacy wardrobes?
speaker-0: So we talk about openly how we have something special and everyone that works here is lucky to be here, including me. And I'm lucky to have all the people here that are working with us. And we need to protect this special thing that we have and grow it. So that's kind of like where we come from. know, that's, you know, that's, that's kind of like our starting point. And, know, we talk about our values all the time. And, and if we run into a problem and, and for instance, one of our, our, our core values is pride in what we design and build. So if we finish something and this has happened and, know, we can't answer that question with I'm proud of that. Well, then we need to fix it and do something different. And, you know, in, whatever we have to do to make that happen. So we try to live up to that. another one of our core values is family first. Sometimes that's a tough one because, you know, a guy has to go to a family event or one of the kids is in a special sporting event in Florida and he has to take off for a few days. And, know, he's already used his time off for the year, but you know, one of our core values is family first. when that comes up, I have to ask myself like, hey, man, this is a family first thing, like, all right, you can go and it's no problem.
speaker-1: I love that. I think it's safe to say that you don't, you know, or how do I say this? You fall to the level of your core values. Those core values are the anchor for your business that makes your decision making easier. Like Kevin just said there, you know, if he's got a guy who's going off for a family thing and it doesn't work for the business and it doesn't work for Kevin and it doesn't work for the schedule or the client, it doesn't matter. The core value is there and it's established and it means what it means and we never deviate from it. And I think that goes for not only time off, but also who gets in on the team, right? There has to be core values on who gets into this tribe. If you want to have the level of success that Kevin is having, you have to protect that tribe because you're only as good as your weakest team member. And yeah, culture is everything. I think that's super cool. Speaking of culture, right? Cause I want to talk about Amy for a second. And if you don't mind, can you share, can you share a little bit about Amy, you know, her background, how you found her and, and you know, some of the big wins that you've had with her.
speaker-0: Sure. So, you know, after the first debacle with our first salesperson that we hired, I kind of went into my shell a little bit, started doing all the sales again and, you know, had a little bit of fear in hiring another salesperson. because of you and working with you, like I knew that that was something that had to happen and I had to hire another salesperson. And so, you know, about a year ago,
speaker-1: Bye.
speaker-0: this month, we had put out some, you I put out some, ads on for, for a new salesperson and we wound up hiring Amy for our second go at the salesperson thing.
speaker-1: So second salesperson taking another risk. Like how are you feeling about bringing another salesperson on having had a bad experience before?
speaker-0: Very worried.
speaker-1: Why did you push through anyway though?
speaker-0: because I knew that if I didn't, we weren't going to get to where we needed to be. And it was a necessary step in order for me to meet my goals. And again, you know, there's no other choice. We have to press forward. We have to push forward. So despite any, you know, fear or reservations, I knew we had to hire another salesperson.
speaker-1: So you, so you, you pushed through, you went looking like what's like, and what I'm trying to get out here is, is if somebody wants to recreate what you have from sales support, you know, what should they be looking for? Like, what does the background look like? You know, when you bring them on board, how do you like, how do you need to train them? Like break that down for us. How did you win with your salesperson?
speaker-0: I mean, I wish I had, I wish I could tell you, you know, I went through this great sales system that I developed after the first one and we onboarded her properly and did everything right. Unfortunately, that's just not the case. You know, she, she had been a designer for another closet company and she had some experience. I got a great, definitely not the way you should do it, but I got a great vibe from her, from the interview. I interviewed her with my wife, which I think was a good thing to do. And she signed off on her and said she sounded amazing. And I didn't do proper onboarding. I didn't do all the things that I should do because I really couldn't at that time. You know, we needed someone, you know, we needed someone to start looking at projects and bidding jobs. So in a lot of ways, I just got lucky. know that's not the answer you want, but that's the reality.
speaker-1: I know, I have no expectation on the answer because I know exactly how things went down. mean, my next question is going to be like knowing what you know now, how would you do it differently? But like, before we get to that, let's stay on Amy for a second. So she had some design experience. She was working for another closet company. So she already knew the clientele, the product, she knew how a shop works. Why would she move over to you guys? Like what was it that made her sage? You know what legacy is the next thing for me and for everything that I want to achieve.
speaker-0: think you'd have to ask her that question because I'm just going to speculate. But I believe that she was really interested in the kind of work that we were doing. I think, you know, through, you know, our social media and things like that, that she was, she was already aware of us. So I think, I think that, you know, it seemed like, it seemed like a company she wanted to be. a part of it fit with her aesthetic, the kind of thing she wanted to design and build. So I think she was just interested by seeing the type of work we were doing.
speaker-1: think that's a super cool tidbit of information there for guys listening to this podcast where your brand is secretly speaking to people in the background, whether you know it or not. if Amy was watching, she was watching you guys on social media, she was seeing the brand that you had built. And by the way, you have an incredibly clean aesthetic brand, like really well branded business that just screams. you know, quality and, and I don't know, I'm smoke up your ass here, right? Like, I mean, you kept it simple. It looks good. You've got really clear brand guidelines. But what my point is, is there's more benefits to having a social media presence and having a good brand than just marketing to customers.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. mean, yeah, not right. Because, you know, there's trade partners. There's there's a lot of people watching. And there's a lot of people that watch for years before they reach out to you. So there's potential employees watching you. And we've we've gotten I'm sure if I really dug into it that some of the people that work with us now work with us because of what they see on social media.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, super clean. You know, we follow, follow you guys on socials and we try and like every post. Yeah. You that you guys are doing some incredible stuff. Can we touch on marketing for a second? Cause I want to talk about like, you know, what are you finding is working for you? What have you tried in the past that surprised you that didn't work? You know, give us a rundown, you know, kind of high level of like, what's your, what's your strategy?
speaker-0: So, you know, our strategy right now is building a brand and showing people how we are different from our competitors, you know, through social media, video, that sort of thing, you know, showing them that we're their neighbors, you know, our kids go to the same school, we're community people, ⁓ and also building the brand, we're different. We're not like every other closet company. I think that's pretty evident. you know, we're, we're, ⁓ there there's legacy wardrobes and then there's every other closet company. And that's the message we're trying to send through social media video.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, you guys are doing a really good job on the social media presence, which is always cool. And a big difference between say cabinet makers and closet guys is closets are a lot easier to influence your customer's decision to pull the trigger on closets than it say cabinets.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's probably true. A lot of times with the closet situation, there's more of a functional need rather than just aesthetic. But we kind of want to marry both of those, right? So functional need and aesthetic.
speaker-1: Yeah. How do you how do you balance like your your ideal client? Are they just looking for closets or are they usually looking for kitchens too? And you guys are just saying, hey, I don't want the kitchen. I just want the closet portion. Like, how do you balance that?
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, we, just kind of try to stay focused on what we do best, which, which is, know, which closets, wardrobe cabinets and you know, home offices, we do other, other home organizational stuff. We stay away from kitchens because we know that that's just not in our wheelhouse. And we know that our GP is not going to be where we want it to be. If we do a kitchen, just because of the way we're set up. It's not for us. refer anybody in the kitchen. We have lots of friends and partners and local craftsmen that we can refer them to.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought up gross profit margin. was I was hoping you would.
speaker-0: That's all I think about.
speaker-1: Good, good, good. I'm going to, actually getting ready. I'm going to send Kevin ⁓ a picture of me just kind of peeking out from the side of a frame, watching them, you know, with a question mark saying, what was the GPM on that last project you've done? Just to keep it going.
speaker-0: One of my, one of my favorite moments in the last few weeks was we did a project that was a $20,000 wardrobe and it was actually two separate areas, one smaller, one larger. It was a remodel of a home here in Philadelphia. And, you know, everyone knew it was a home run. We got it done in like two days. It was a great project and. I was getting texts from, from Amy and from my install manager, Chris, after the job was completed. Hey, I wonder what the GP is going to be on this job with like a, with like a winky face. So like everybody's kind of dialed into that. We need, we have a lot more, we have a lot more work to do on that. But the fact that I got multiple text messages from, from other people talking about, you know, excited to see what the GP is going to be on, on that project was pretty awesome.
speaker-1: That's so cool. That's so cool. Yeah another big thing that a lot of people really skip over is getting your guys in tune with your numbers and showing them what success looks like in you know ones and zeros essentially You know because when you can rally people around the the gross profit margin That's the true indicator of success It's not how the project looks at the end like sure that looks great on your Instagram profile But if it took you six go backs to get there Do you really want more projects like that? And the answer is probably no, but getting your team in line with the GP, especially your production guys, your install guys, and then your salespeople so that they can sell good jobs for a high gross margin. Dude opens up so many doors. I love that, man. I think that's the best. Probably one of the biggest things is that if you're walking into 2026 with a crew who are in line with gross profit margin, you are destined to be successful and make a shit ton of money.
speaker-0: We talk about it all the time. mean, and we talk about it as a team. I talk about it individually with members of the team. We talk about it during group meetings. I mean, it's something that we're continually working on. We have a lot more to do. But I I simply say, especially to the production guys, like, look, you know how we have to do X amount of projects a month in order to get enough money to pay our bills and keep this awesome business running? Well, if our GP is just this much more, we don't have to work as hard. We can work less and make the same amount of money or more. So they start to understand it. mean, I mean, frankly, it like helps me to talk to them about it, to hammer it into my own head how important it is. So it's like, you know, it kind of comes back to me, helps reinforce it in my own mind. And it reinforces with the team how important it is. And it literally means more money, less work. And no one can argue with that.
speaker-1: No, absolutely not. And I think another big part to that too is, is GP is really the end of the first leg of, of getting to, getting to make net profit. And for the team, the reason why they should really buy in on that is because net profit is where all the cool stuff comes from. The new vehicles, the new equipment, the new uniforms, the branded yeti cups, the, you know, salaries for future positions in the business, the pay raises. You don't get that without net profit. And if you're not driving that into your team members every single day, and I mean, using it, using gross margin as an example, as a KPI that you tie everybody's roles against, it keeps everyone on the same page. And you you touched on something earlier, you talked about ownership, right? You said, I want all of my team members to own their role in the business. And one of the big lessons that keeps coming up over and over and over again, is that ownership doesn't mean doing all the little tasks and the Vangie Lee ownership means taking responsibility for the result, right? And the result is your gross profit margin. It's not you swinging the hammer yourself and doing everything. It is taking ownership of the result and saying, Hey, I was as much a part of this as Kevin was, or the salesperson was, or, you know, the customer was, it's all about taking ownership of the GPM. And when everybody takes ownership of the GPM, you're almost guaranteed to get a good gross profit margin on your projects. And then lastly, all that's really left over is your fixed expenses. By the time it gets to gross profit margin, that will, that's the sale. So the price that you price that price the job at, and then you're laboring your materials, which are the only real costs of any project. Next is your fixed expenses. And if you have a good admin person, which Kevin now does, and you know, is going through that leg of training them. Well, now it's all about nickel and diamond, your fixed expenses right through to net profit. It's super simple. But I love that everyone's rallied around that number. I think every, if every guy was listening to this podcast episode and they walked away with a clear, clear goal to implement transparency at least to the gross profit margin point with their team, everyone would be making a lot more money. Money, would you agree, Kev?
speaker-0: totally agree. And it's really, it's really a simple concept. But it's surprising how complicated it is, like, like most things, right? Like, like, getting it right. It's a, it's a thing that we're constantly working on and figuring out and changing our mind about what it should be. We keep raising it. What our trust profit margin should be. And, know, we've been having a conversation recently, like where I'm like, Hey, I know this sounds crazy. But I think we should raise our prices and this is why. So it's a hard thing for me to wrap my head around as the owner, right? So it's simple, but it's really complicated.
speaker-1: It's yeah, it's complicated if you don't have the infrastructure to track it so that you can communicate it. And I think starting out, clock in clock out for your team members. Number one system and process that we always teach. And then second is have a system for capturing receipts from your materials. And then literally gross margin is revenue minus labor and materials and burden, sorry, labor burden, but yeah, revenue minus labor and burden and minus materials equals gross profit margin. And I think, you know, obviously, you know, I give Kevin an idea here on what he should be looking at. And then he goes and creates a 20 point spreadsheet, you know, that he understands. But ultimately the point is, is putting the infrastructure in that you can get your, get to a point where you're talking about gross margin with your team. That opens up so many doors and that's honestly one of the, one of the best lessons you could possibly take away from coaching or even just having a conversation with an entrepreneur like Kevin, you know, what were the big things that moved the needle? Focus on gross margin, right? Forget net until you can nail gross, you will win. Hands down.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's how we win and building building building a culture of winners like everyone wants to win and when you explain to them like this is how we win and we're winners. It just it's all come together.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Especially when everybody's trying to beat each other by one point. You know, if you were to compare this into say like NFL football, for example, you know, what are you trying to do? You're trying to get more points than the other team. And that's exactly what we're trying to do here. If all of your guys in your business are saying, well, here's how I can get five points and here's how I can get three points and here's how I can get an extra two points. That's everybody buying in and then everybody wins when you hit that result. And I don't want to come across as we're just greedy. We're overcharging our clients. But what I will say is that we're, we're, it's more about premium, right? We're a premium business. We sell premium products to premium clients who appreciate quality and they're willing to pay for it. And we use that money as our growth fund. It's not like Kevin's rolling around with Rolex is on both risks, both risks driving a Mercedes. You know, it's all about growing that growth fund. so that we can keep scaling the business, right? And you've just went through a phase moving your shop, which we're gonna talk about in a sec, but you're moving your shop. You've invested a lot in the business from all of that 2024 and 2025 net profit that you made, right?
speaker-0: Right. And I mean, we have that conversation too. Like that's part of the gross profit conversation is like the reason why we need the right amount of gross profit is so that we can serve our customers better and be the best and provide better service and better products and better systems for our clients. I mean, that's the it's not how much, you know, how much money we can make and run away with. It's it's how much profit gross profit we can make. to help us better serve our clients.
speaker-1: Absolutely. I see this all the time as a coach. I've been at a point where I've had, you know, seven and a half hours of back to back zoom calls every single day, you know, charging a quarter of what I charge now and how bad a coach I was back at that time. You know, like I just didn't have the time, the patience to coach that many people, especially when the money wasn't there. But when, you know, when we, when I started saying being really selective with who my clients were. You know, like my only work with my ideal client and drilling it down to work with less. I always see that that I have a much better, deeper relationship with every individual client that I work with and less volume, you know, and that's, you know, that's what people really want. They don't want to just throw money at something and then get what everyone else is selling. They want something that's bespoke and custom that you're going to really take your time with and make sure that they're a hundred percent happy with. And I can't compare that to anything better than what you guys do at legacy with high-end work. You care about the customer. You care about your team. You care about your image. You care about your reputation. And in order for you to be able to do all those things, you do need to charge premium pricing. And I think that's totally fair, completely fair. I want to move into the new shop, right? Cause like we said, you've, you've, moved into this new shop and we've got a couple of questions I want to ask you from some of our members as well. But you're in the middle of this transition. What is... What's something that you're really excited about with the new shop and having that additional space? And then what is something that came up that people should know about if they were considering their own move?
speaker-0: So I'm excited about, well, we bought a new edge bander, which is incredible. I'm still excited about that. We're going to be able to do, produce a lot. We already are producing lot more, a lot higher quality edge with our, with our new edge bander. was a ridiculous amount of money, but I think worth it. Infrastructure wise in the new shop, you know, there's, there's a lot of expenses that come up. along the way, you know, because we got a new edge bander, we had way higher electrical needs. A lot of that has to be thought about. had to put a lot of money into electrical upgrades. That was surprising. I mean, not surprising, but like a little difficult. It was a hard pill to swallow after we like got the shop and then realized like, oof, like we have to put how much into upgrading this electrical system.
speaker-1: Right. Right.
speaker-0: Definitely something to look out for. Even though it was a commercial space, it had tons of electric. The types of machinery, the machinery we were putting in there really had an even higher demand than an already commercial space with full three-phase electric and all that. We had higher electrical requirements because of some of those machinery purchases. So it's some hidden challenges there and hidden expenses. One thing that happened right away, as soon as we got to a bigger space is we started producing things way faster, way cleaner, and got rid of our pre-existing backlog almost immediately. We have a lot of things we still need to do on the space, but one of the things I did recently, we were really kind of nerding out about like,
speaker-1: Well...
speaker-0: we can put backs here and lean manufacturing and how many carts do we need and exactly how are we going to move this part from this position to that position? We were really kind of in the weeds on that and it's fun and cool thing to think about. But after just, you know, a month in the new shop, I realized that at, the point we're at right now, since we've already, the new space already gave us so much more capacity, production was no longer a bottleneck. And while all those things are important and we will need to implement a lot of those kind of lean manufacturing ideas and really think about how we're processing materials and preparing materials to go out and storing materials, all that stuff's really important. It's really not a problem for us right now. So we needed to refocus on other things first. And think in the back of our mind, not let that go, but focus on other bottlenecks and then go back to production when that becomes a bottleneck again, after we hopefully sell a lot more closets in the coming months.
speaker-1: Of course. Yeah. So you've moved into this new shop. You've incurred a lot more expenses. Obviously somebody needs to pay for that, right? Or more clients need to be able to pay for that. So your focus is on sales, which is totally fair. But I think you touched on something kind of important as well is, you know, you're, going through this transition to this new shop and you're saying, well, now we have an opportunity to redraw the floor plan. Now we have an opportunity to implement a lot of lean systems, but it's pretty easy to get carried away with that when The goal needs to be, let's get moved and get right back into production as quickly as we can. Would you like, what would you say to that?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually that really realizing that in the last couple of weeks really kind of refocused me on what my role is becoming. And that's more of like kind of standing back as you always say, you know, what do you always say to a 130 circle in the battlefield? I'm of, kind of getting that bird's eye view of everything standing back and watching. And that allows me to say, you know, to see like, okay, hey guys, we're focusing on this on a production issue, on, on, on refining production when it's not a bottleneck and not an issue. We have this issue right now. Let's deal with this. So it actually opened up my eyes as to what my role is becoming, which is really that like, keeping people focused on solving the, the problem, the constraint at the time. So what's our constraint right now? How do we fix it? Let's fix it until we're done and we kind of have that solved. And then once we fix that, there's going to be a new constraint somewhere else. And then I will refocus the team on that constraint. Right now, production is not one of them.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys already have a proven model where you've got an optimized team at A players who follow a system to produce the projects. That's not the area that you need to innovate. If anything, you're innovating the sales department to be able to take on more capacity. And I think like you said too, right? Like you've brought on that sales assistant, someone who's really there to free up time for Amy, your sales girl to do more of what she is great at. You know, and hopefully you don't mind me saying this, but Amy sold over seven, well over seven figures last year. If you think of the level of detail that she has to cross the T's dot the I's on, remove that admin part and let her be the person that, you know, can go out and sell more and attend more estimates or, you know, have her train somebody else, which I think is, I think it's super cool to be able to see from the AC 130 and look down on the battlefield where your troops need to be and then call out the actions to them. You know, like you're no longer a closet business. You're a people development business that happens to make closets. And you're the maestro of this, this art, this orchestra in a sense. And it is really easy when people are given autonomy to run off and say, I'm going to innovate my department, but it's understanding when innovation is needed. And your job is to say, Hey, slow down a little bit and you speed up. I'm going to hire this person. We're going to control things. When was the last time you were on the production floor? Other than that LinkedIn video you posted the other day when I saw you at the edge bander. When was last time you actually had to be involved in a project?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I don't we've been talking about this for years, right? And it's finally kind of coming to fruition, right? So like, and I'm starting to see things that we talked about years ago. But yeah, I mean, I don't I don't really have to do a lot of that day to day stuff. I do like to be around and see what's going on. I don't like to be removed. mean, I like building stuff. In a lot of ways, it kind of sucks. I don't get to do it as much anymore. But, so I am, you know, don't do, I don't, have guys that make stuff. They do a better job than me. We have guys that do install stuff. They're, they're better installers than I ever was. They're awesome. So, so, ⁓ so yeah, I mean, we've, we've, we've talked about this for, a long time, but you know, I really finally got to the point where like, yeah, I'm in the people business. So I used to be the one that was completely overwhelmed and had to wear all the hats and do everything. You know, I'm still, I'm still overwhelmed. We're still not out of the woods yet. I still have a lot to do, but they're just different things. And we talked about this a lot. mean, what we have now is like, now I have my eight players, which are getting overwhelmed. So that's kind of like what we're dealing with right now. Right. So like, like, you know, I have people that are taking responsibility and ownership and, are really awesome. And, you know, we wouldn't be where we're at without them, but You know, I can see that they're the ones that are kind of where I used to be being overwhelmed with the things that they need to deal with. And we've talked about this a bunch, you know, now it's my, like, I have to be in a position as, you know, the CEO to see when that's happening and figure out how to make their lives easier and take things away from them so that they can do the things that they do. really well, more, you know, do more of that and less of the things like, so it's basically everything you taught me to do when we first started talking, I have to teach my employees to do myself. And it kind of goes down the line.
speaker-1: Yeah. It's, comes back to that, that kind of age old saying where your first priority should be to buy back as much time for yourself as you possibly can as the owner so that you can be this, the CEO that's hiring your admin person, hiring your production guy and hiring your salesperson. And then your role changes and you go into that people development mode, you become more of the leader, but your job then becomes to buy back time for everybody else. And I think Kevin's done a great job of that. for sure. Kevin, I'm going to start wrapping up here. We're going to end this on some member questions before I start giving you some questions. The first thing I want to ask is what did hitting your first million feel like?
speaker-0: So that was a while ago now, actually. ⁓ You know, ⁓ for me, I didn't really, I always saw how far I needed to go, so I didn't really celebrate that much. It was great for a minute. I was like, ⁓ wow, we did it. But I got right back to work the next day.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: It's like, so what? Yeah.
speaker-1: This is my, this is my biggest gripe with Kevin is he doesn't celebrate major milestones like that. But yeah, like you said, it's been a while since you hit seven figures, you know, you surpassed two this year. You're on your path to three. Hopefully that's okay to say, you know, like you're, you're at this point where now it's, now it's a case of, can't not hit my revenue goal for this year, given the amount of expenses that we've taken on. You said in our last coaching call, you said I've burnt the boats. We burned the bridges, you know, I am, I've got no choice but to move forward. What's next for Legacy Wardrobes?
speaker-0: So we are going to continue on our journey to become the best closet company in Philadelphia. And we are going to engage with the community in our new showroom, is in an awesome neighborhood here in Philly. Actually the same neighborhood I lived with my wife in an apartment when we first met. So it's a little bit of a full circle thing here in the new showroom. We're looking to help people be part of the community and we want everybody in Philadelphia to know about Legacy Wardrobes and to be the number one supplier of an installer of closets and wardrobes in the city.
speaker-1: I love it. I love it. And I fully believe that you're going to do that. I fully believe that even beyond Philly at some point, which we don't have to get into today, but dude, I think you've got something incredible in it and other people can mimic this. Other people can do it. You know, like I think if Kevin's told us anything is this isn't, this isn't exclusive to Kevin. The opportunity exists to everyone out there who has a small closet business to be the legacy wardrobes of your territory or your town.
speaker-0: Me too.
speaker-1: But like, like we've talked about, this has got nothing to do with building good closets or good cabinets. Sure. That's a by-product. That's what we get to the client, but it's all about the people you bring in and the intrinsic values and the way that you grow this business based on your core values. Let me jump to some questions, Kevin. One thing, a couple of things that came in was, you know, transitioning, transitioning technical aspects of the company. like moving your CNC machine, moving your equipment you touched on kind of. electrical stuff like if you were to do it again what would you do differently?
speaker-0: I actually think this time we did everything the right way. mean, we leaned on experts. We had an expert rigor move everything. They did a fantastic job. we hired people that had been around for a really long time to handle all of that, all the technology stuff, partners that we've had relationships with. machinery dealers for a long time. mean, really at this point, that that's what it's all about is, is leaning on all of the people and the relationships that we've built over the years. And, and leaning on those people to help us when this time came. like, luckily, we had already had all of those relationships built with great people and great partners. So when it came time to move, it was a lot less less stressful than it could have been because of the help we had from all our friends.
speaker-1: I love that. Yeah. If anybody wants to rewatch that story, go add Kevin on LinkedIn. You'll see all his equipment on the big trucks moving in. He did a really good job of documenting the transition from his old shop to his new shop. So definitely go and watch that. Next one was how do you manage installs and technical training for installers? And you did touch on this. You're going to, you're ready, you know, go into a third install crew. What is your install training look like?
speaker-0: So, so I'm actually a little removed from that right now. We, we have an awesome install manager, Chris, who's a great guy. He's a Navy vet and he was an installer for California closets. And I kind of gave Chris the, actually, he actually did his job interview in his work van on his lunch break. No way. That's how I knew I liked them.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, like a little zoom interview. so he's been with us for a while now. He's great guy. And you know, luckily, I have awesome people, man. So Chris is one of one of our other other awesome people. And he he took the reins with with with onboarding a new guy. So he found the guy he set up the interview. He talked to him. I showed up for the interview and I said, Hey, Chris, what do you think? And Chris thought, you know, it was a good a good a good candidate. So we have them, you we have that candidate on a week trial period right now where Chris sent them out with our, you know, with an experienced install crew and he's kind of handling it. So he's looking at all of that onboarding himself and I'm letting him run with it.
speaker-1: Awesome man. Yeah, think that's part of buying back your time as well as hiring guys to keep growing your team. If you have to be involved in every recruitment decision, every interview, know, especially if you're spread out amongst admin, sales, finance, building relationships, you know, how good a job are you really going to do of stacking a crew? So having your production manager or your install manager or your sales manager not be part of that recruitment process. I think you're definitely causing some detrimental issues to the business when you're not including those guys. And I think it comes back to hire A players and then let them build their own team. And that's how your business grows in the background without you having to have hands on. I think that's super cool, man.
speaker-0: I think, mean, if I have to like thinking about that, like that's a thing you have to let go of, right? So that's something I had to let go of. I think, think really, you know, I finally came to the realization, which is a little bit of a hit to my ego, but you know, I'm not the best person at hiring people. usually, I'm the kind, I just kind of like everybody. Like I'm like, ⁓ this guy will probably be a great guy. Like I'm not, I'm not good at it, Like, so like I'm, I'm usually the problem. in all of these processes. So the more I find people that to take over those things like hiring and hiring installers and, that kind of stuff, the I find if I'm honest with myself, the more I remove myself from all of these different things, the better things run.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. And again, not to say that, you know, you're bad at recruiting or interviewing. I think it is some luck, but it's also you holding a standard of who gets into your business. Your guys are going to see that. They're going to see the quality of the people that they work alongside. And when they get into do their own interviews or their own recruitment, they're going to have that standard clearly, you know, planted. in that process. They're not going to let just anybody walk in when you know you're you have a team that's already made up of eight players. They're not going to want to do anything to jeopardize that. So that's.
speaker-0: Because of our culture, when some, you know, it has happened over the, over the last couple of years where someone comes in that is not a cultural fit, you know, it's self policing. Like they let me know without really like, you know, ratting the guy out. They'll kind of, they'll kind of let me know like, Hey man, this, this, this is, you gotta get rid of this guy. He's not a, he's not, he's not one of us.
speaker-1: It's not one of us. They eat their own. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: So, you know, it's self-policing. So it's, feel kind of comfortable. kind of makes having that culture in place makes it a lot easier.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Two, two little quick things here. had another question, but I need to give it some context. So you can't see Kevin on the screen with some technical difficulties with some camera equipment, but Kevin has some very well decorated ears from jujitsu, right? Big Brazilian jujitsu guy. The question that I got submitted and you're going to laugh at this, but it was Nick Hall who's asking, said I would sincerely like to know what would take longer, Kevin submitting me in BJJ or me pinning Kevin in a wrestling match and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
speaker-0: Well, you know, he's been calling me out, man. So I think, I think we might have to have a brave Academy grappling session. Now, now he's a bit younger than me. So, so, and he is, he is a wrestler. So, you know, it's going to be tough, you know, wrestlers are tough opponents, but I think we might actually have to have to have a great, great grappling session and see what happens, man. I don't know. I don't know. He, seems like a tough dude. So it could go either way. You know, got some tricks up my sleeve though. we'll.
speaker-1: 100%. Yeah. Between, between, you know, you, him, Laurent, Steven, you know, some of the guys in the program that are super into BJJ, CrossFit, wrestling. I think we're going to have to do something at the 2027 Brave Academy retreat where we throw the mats out and we're like, right, let's hash this out. You know, we'll give her awards for who did the most revenue, but you lose it if you lose in a wrestling match. think that's fair. think that's Awesome. I'm coming for you.
speaker-0: I love it.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm going to stand and watch. I'll be the ref. I'll put the coach jersey on. I'm a kickboxing guy. It's an unfair advantage to someone who does jujitsu. I want to end on coaching, right? Like for someone who might be on the fence about joining the program or even just getting a coach, even if it's not me, like what would you tell someone who is on the fence? They're having their dark days. You know, they're considering their options. What would you say to someone who's on the fence about coaching?
speaker-0: I mean, there, there is no question that it's, it's the best decision I ever made in business. And, know, besides marrying my wife and having my kids, it might be one of the best decisions I made in my life. And, you know, had we, had we not met, you know, I wouldn't be where I'm at Lee. mean, it's just, you know, it's the truth of it. You know, I didn't know what I didn't know. And, you know, Looking back on it now, you know, I hate to think about it, but had I had the sense to have reached out for help from, from a coach a long time ago, you know, where would I be now? And you know, who knows, maybe it wasn't the right time and you know, life takes the paths that it takes. So maybe it was just meant to be the way it is, but, yeah, man, I wish I would have reached out and asked for help. You know, I was just, I was always a guy that, that never asked for help. I always did it on my own. always figured things out on my own. I never asked for help from anybody for anything for a long time. So I had to get over that. And once I did, I asked for help. I asked you for help. you know, it, it, it made my life. It made not only my life better, but it made the lives of everyone around me better and everyone involved with legacy wardrobes.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: you it made all their lives better as well. So it's not just for yourself. It's, it's the rip, the ripple effect that goes through your family and your community. You know, it's about asking for help and being humble enough to, to admit that you don't have the answers and to reach the goals. You know, the stuff that we do is hard and there's a very small percentage of people that, that get to the, the point where we're at and the levels that we're at and You can't do that on your own. need help. So I'm really thankful for you, man. I'm thankful that you helped me and anybody out there listening that is at a dark point, know, hard work will get you far, but it will not get you all the way to where you need to go. You need that hard work, but you gotta be a hard worker. You gotta be a hustler. You gotta work harder than everybody else, but that only gets you so far. you need help along the way. so you got to reach out, you know, if that's what you want, if you want to be, if you want to find success in business, you know, maybe some people don't need it, but in my experience, it seems like, you you got to ask for help and you need someone to help you, help you on your journey. And you've been that for me. So, so I recommend people reach out.
speaker-1: for man. I really appreciate that, Kevin. Kevin, you've been an absolutely phenomenal client. Your mindset is absolutely the mindset that everybody should have. If everybody was like Kevin, you'd have a lot more big cabinetry businesses. And I think on a personal level, you're the one I relate with the most just given our background and where we've came from. I think You inspire me every time we jump on a call with each other to keep pushing. Your mindset is infectious. And I can't wait to see what you do with that, man. The new shop, the team can't wait to come down and see the new showroom. want to be the one that breaks in that fancy coffee machine that you put in. Yeah, dude, I'm freaking stoked. And I really appreciate your time today and all your wisdom for these guys on the podcast. I know that there's a bunch of guys in here walking away with us, feeling like they know what they need to do next. For anyone who's still on the fence about coaching. Reach out, right? Let's have a conversation. Let's see where you're at. Let's see what you need specifically and see if we can get you at least to the next step or pointing in the right direction. And yeah, this is not the last time you're going to hear from Kevin. We'll probably have him on the podcast again in the future when he hits his 5 million, 10 million, $50 million goals over the next few years. And Kevin, wish you all the best, man. Really appreciate you. Really appreciate the team and what you guys are trying to do in this industry.
speaker-0: Yeah, man, we're gonna do it together league
speaker-1: Hell yeah, buddy. Hell yeah.
speaker-1: work. Welcome back to the Conquer Contractor Chaos show. Today I'm joined by my friend and Brave Academy member, Kevin McCarthy. Kevin is the founder and CEO of Legacy Wardrobes, a luxury closet brand that is making waves in the Philly luxury home scene. Featured in Faces of Design 2025 in Philly, Kevin's also a father, husband, and a true example of an entrepreneur. Kevin, thanks for joining us, man. Welcome to the show.
speaker-0: What's up, Lee? Excited to be here with you,
speaker-1: Hell yeah, buddy. Hell yeah. Kevin, give us the, give us like the 30 second elevator pitch. Like who are you? Who is Legacy Wardrobes? What do you guys do?
speaker-0: Sure. I'm Kevin McCarthy, owner of Legacy Wardrobes and Closets, and we design, fabricate, and install home storage solutions for people all over the Philadelphia area.
speaker-1: straight off the flyer there, ⁓ That's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And I think, I think you're totally doing that. And I think Kevin undersells the impact that his business is having in Philadelphia. You know, when it comes to custom storage solutions, some of the work that you guys pump out is absolutely breathtaking. You know, like every post you guys put on Instagram, I'm like, I need this in my life. I want this in my life. And I, you know, I comment on it and I always get hit with your, ⁓ your bot saying, if you want clogs, it's book an appointment. I'm like, ⁓ where's your kid?
speaker-0: My favorite is when the bots start talking to each other. So we'll have other like trade guys that like have, you know, their own bots. So my bot will respond and then their bot will say, well, if you're interested in painting, hang on and you know, or send your information. So it's pretty comical. I don't know how I feel about the bots. I gotta be honest with you.
speaker-1: I think the great good one is selling to a human, but when you show up at your house one day and your house has been repainted and you didn't even schedule it, that's probably where the challenge comes. But yeah, I mean, that's good. If you listen to our podcast episode with Glenn Chu, obviously AI is becoming a thing, which is pretty cool. We've never had that before and it's never been easier to run a business, which is cool. But anyway, these are all systems that over time, you know, as a busy closet maker, cabinet maker, plumber, carpenter, electrician, whatever you are. the systems that you do have to adopt. And it's funny how we're learning in real time, the kind of quirks of these things, right, Kev?
speaker-0: For sure.
speaker-1: I want to, I want to kick this podcast off by, by just saying that I fully understand the importance of your time right now and how much I appreciate the fact that you carved out a little bit of time to sit down with me. And here's, here's the reason why guys, if you're listening in, Kevin is in the middle of a pivotal transition from his old shop to his new shop. We're going to get into that story in a minute here, but right now Kevin is deep in the thick of it. He's designing a showroom. He's hiring staff, he's putting together a new shop. Kevin, give the guys a rundown of what's going on in your life right now.
speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. Well, first of all, Lee, mean, I'm sure we'll get into it. I appreciate that you are, you know, thoughtful about my time, but in all honesty, I would not be in the position that I am without you. So we'll start with that first. I wouldn't be doing all these things had we not met, had I not reached out to you. And you know, we had the relationship that we've had over the last few years. So it's my pleasure to be here. And it's the least I could do in, in my opinion. So yeah, we're, currently, we move shops. We bought a new edge bander. We moved our CNC machine over to the new shop. We're producing there and we're in the process of renovating and getting ready to open a new showroom. We had a small showroom previously. This is a much larger one in a much better neighborhood. And yeah, we got a lot going on.
speaker-1: 100%. Just for numbers here, your shop that you're moving out of was what size and the shop that you've just moved into is what size.
speaker-0: So my video wasn't working so you couldn't see me laughing, but the shop that we moved out of was 2,500 square feet and we moved into a 8,000 square foot shop.
speaker-1: 8,000, 2500 to 8,000 square feet. That's wild. That is wild.
speaker-0: We shouldn't have been in at 2,500 square feet. We shouldn't have moved a long time ago.
speaker-1: For sure. Why did you have to move, Kevin?
speaker-0: So, you know, I think the space that we had in our shop became the bottleneck. We couldn't produce as much as we needed to produce in that shop and we had to move. had no other choice.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. We'll get into the move and the showroom and all that stuff in a little bit here, but I think it's important to stress to the guys who are listening to the show that this has not came easy. There has been a lot of stress testing and bootstrapping at the old shop, pushing as much as we can from our team, from our people, from our equipment, you know, from our vendors to get to this point where we finally had to pull the trigger and say, like, let's go, we have to go. you know, and the right opportunity came up and then things just kind of moved a million miles an hour, you know, from the idea of we should move to we have a new place, right?
speaker-0: That's right. mean, you know, I had to make some quick decisions, which, which we made, but yeah, no, definitely didn't come easy. Lee, I started in my basement of a row house in Philly. So yeah. And my first job was 300 square feet, which was all I could afford carved out of a commercial warehouse here in Philly. So yeah, bootstrap for sure.
speaker-1: Yeah, faking it until we make it. So since we're, since we're in the past, right? Like, take me back a little bit further than that. Like take me back to, you know, childhood, you know, growing up. Like, what was that like for you? And are you, you were born in Philly Kev?
speaker-0: That's right, born and raised.
speaker-1: Yeah. So take me back, like what did childhood look like for you, Kevin?
speaker-0: Well, if we're going all the way back, Lee, I born in Philadelphia, had a little bit of a rough upbringing. think a lot of guys that kind of came from where I came from had a little bit of a rough upbringing. So yeah, it's kind of like a little bit of a rocky story, I guess, a little bit for me, which I guess a lot of people in the city have.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think if we could get one point across in this podcast episode as we talk, I want to show guys that it doesn't matter where you came from and that everybody has a fair shake. know, for those of you who don't know, right? Like, you know, when it comes to growing up and it comes to your childhood, you know, like there's there's a million reasons why you should fail and only very few that you can succeed in. And I think Kevin is a really good testament to that, that despite everything that went on in your childhood, things that happened, growing up, know, rough childhood, that you're making it, right? Like you're breaking the mold. Would that be fair to say?
speaker-0: For sure. Absolutely. would say that if you, you know, it's funny, sometimes I, I'll have ⁓ my older son with me and we'll run into people that, that know me and kind of know where I came from. And they're always shocked. They're always shocked and surprised at how well I'm doing.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think now that obviously you've got kids now. So, you know, now the reason why we're going through all this craziness of new shops, you know, it kind of puts things in a bit of a different light when you've got kids, because now we're doing it for them. And if I can remember right, I remember there was a time and this is way back when we first started coaching a couple of years back where you said to me, you were like, hey, I really, I really want to put my kid into private school. You know, I don't want them going into public school. I want them to get like a good education. And I remember that you were really worried about not vibing with the other parents at that private school. Do you remember that?
speaker-0: I do.
speaker-1: Do me a favor, just explain, what does the pick-up line look like at your kid's school now?
speaker-0: There's a big legacy wardrobe truck in the line, that's for sure.
speaker-1: Mercedes, Mercedes, Maserati, legacy wardrobe pickup truck. Which is cool because I mean I remember putting that on your your goal board as you know get our kid into private school like start putting some money inside start following the profit first model we've came a long way to get into this point now but it does seem like time has just blinked and we are here now but yeah we
speaker-0: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha about college too. mean, we talked about, you know, getting ready for college. That was one of our plans. And, you know, we're putting our oldest through right now. So our youngest is in private school as well. And our oldest is going through college and you know, we're able to take care of that bill.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Which was a real fear way back in the day, but I mean, you're making it happen. It's funny, you know, like you're, you were so afraid of rubbing shoulders with some of those kind of more affluent people in the school. And yet, you know, you're becoming one yourself. But from a, from a, from a, I don't want to say, how do I word this? I would probably say you're coming to this like you earned it, you know, with a sense of, you know, growing up broke. and not having everything handed to you as a kid yourself. You're giving it to your children with an appreciation ⁓ of, you need to appreciate what you're being given here. And I think that's super cool. That's what we all want for kids.
speaker-0: Yeah, mean, think, I think, you know, I think coming where, where I come from, where a lot of guys come from, it's, it's an easy excuse. It's an easy excuse to say, I'm not going to fit in or I'm not like them or, know, how could, how could you expect me to do anything? Look where I come from. ⁓ and it's, it's an easy thing. It's an excuse. I leaned on for a long time. I mean, I remember, I remember saying like, you know, I'm not that in the money. I don't really, I don't really care about money that much, you know, because like I didn't know how to make it, you know? And like, just, I just think it's a, it's a really easy built in excuse that, that a lot of people use and something you have to get past and something I'm still working on getting past.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, this is something this is something that we fight with every day. And I mean, we're not really talking like Kevin's not going home like Scrooge McDuck and diving into a pile of gold coins every night. I think I think it's safe to say that Kevin's created an opportunity in his closet business to afford him certain things that he didn't have as a kid so that he can give a better life to his children. And think that's super cool. you know, we kind of like we've went kind of deep on your background before, know, for those of you that don't know much about my background, you know, we lost my dad when I was 11, he committed suicide when I was 11, you know, which had its whole, whole own host of problems afterwards with single mother, three kids, small apartment, you know, in a rough area back home in Scotland. We had to do whatever we had to do to survive, you know, it wasn't just my mom's job. to go out and get money. was also our job to go out and get money. And I'll tell a little story here, but one of the things that we got into in order to feed ourselves was selling pirate DVDs, which started when I was 11, 11 and a half, getting in and selling every Sunday, dude, at these, I don't know what you guys call them. We call them car boot sales. Basically, it's like a Sunday market where everybody pulls up with their car and they sell whatever they've got. It's like a flea market, right? And yeah, we used to do that. Me and my older brother would do that. We'd make some money. We'd take it home. You know, my mom still had my younger brother at the time. He was a baby. You know, there's seven years difference between me and my younger brother. So he was only five years old when this was going on. But yeah, we had to bitch drop it. You know, I remember in every single phase of life, I have had to work in some form, whether when I was at high school, you know, I would, the lunch bell would go, I would run to the place where everybody got their sandwiches from and I would go help them make sandwiches for a little bit of money. You know, I sold cigarettes on the side. I was, you know, I used to chip people's playstations and Xboxes when they first came out. It was a hustle, you know, growing up and even, even into my twenties, it was You know, we were, we were always on the other side of the bar, you know, watching everyone else out partying and spending their paychecks and having fun. And I'm like, I need to work. need to work. need to work. I honestly have been working since I was about seven years old with my grandfather and his antique business. But yeah, dude, like it's, it's crazy how easy some people have it and how hard others. And I always find that the adversity that, that you face when you're young builds so much character. that almost in a sense you kind of deserve a lot of success later on. You know what mean?
speaker-0: Well, I don't think I deserve anything. I try not to take, mean, I hear what you're saying. I definitely don't take that, that kind of mindset like that. I deserve something, but I hear exactly what you're saying. It's funny cause I haven't heard that story before. And from you, we haven't really got too personal, but it makes a lot of sense to me and probably why we vibe the way we do. Because I think like, I think for guys like us, we, you know, it could all, I kind of day to day, I like, feels like it could all go away. I've been there. I feel like I can lose it at any moment. So that's kind of part of the struggle too. It's like, it's like, ⁓ you know, the success or any success that I have, it's fleeting for me. I don't really celebrate. I don't really celebrate it. Cause I feel like.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: I haven't gotten anywhere and it could be all be gone tomorrow unless I get to the next level. So unfortunately that's kind of the way I operate more fortunately. ⁓ and I think that you could, I think you can take those things. I think it's guys like us that if we're able to overcome those obstacles, we can really draw from, from those experiences and it makes us stronger. So I've come over the years. to instead of looking at those types of situations that we had to endure in our early years as something that was against us, that caused us hardships to actually one of my strengths. Because I can look back and say, I got to where I am and I started here. ⁓ And I can draw a lot of strength from that.
speaker-1: Yeah. I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left, you know, myth of truth. But I think you're right, man, for sure. And like I said, know, it puts it into two clear paths for guys who have that upbringing is either, you you fall to the level of your childhood, you're upbringing your experiences and you use it as an excuse not to perform or you harness the power of that and say, I am going to do everything opposite. I'm going to be more, want more, push harder, you know, do the thing. And I think that's super cool. And I wouldn't wish, it's a shame because I wouldn't wish that on anybody. I wouldn't wish what I went through as a kid, what my brothers went through as a kid is what you went through as a kid. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. But at the same time, it gives me a bit of context as to why, you know, gives me a bit of context as to why. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, let's let's get to the point where, you know, tell me about young Kevin. Like, how did how did you get into cabinetry and woodworking and furniture? Like, where did it start for you? How old were you and where did it start?
speaker-0: So, I mean, you know, for me, again, like, so both my parents were, were drug addicts in Philly, in Kensington, which is a rough area known throughout the world as one of the biggest drug areas and, know, in the country. And, ⁓ I was orphaned at a pretty young age and mostly raised by my grandmother. We were kind of bounced around with different family members. And I actually. was on my own for a lot of that time. luckily I had a wonderful grandmother that was always there for me and took care of me without her. I definitely would not be where I'm at. So she was always kind of there to help me out when I needed it. But most of my time was kind of on my own trying to figure things out and heading down some wrong paths along that way. I never made it through high school. So I actually dropped out of school in ninth grade. I was such a bad kid that they didn't really care. So no one ever came looking for me. I just stopped going to school and that was it. And started working trades when I was pretty young. So I had to earn money. when I was probably my first trade job when I was like 14, 15 years old. So I would kind of work here or there, get into trouble kind of. kind of float around. And I did that for a long time, times in my life where I got a lot of trouble. But I always had that always had that trade kind of background. One thing I always had, which I was really lucky is I knew how to work. And I could work hard. I kind of knew what that was always. Luckily, I had an uncle that was a really hard worker. So I did have a couple, even though I didn't have a lot in my life, I had a couple positive influences, a couple role models and I could see like, you could work hard at it and make it. But, uh, it really took until I met my wife in my late twenties that I kind of became an entrepreneur. Before that, I was a helper remodeling bathrooms, demoing plaster walls, picking up trash. Basically did that for a long time.
speaker-1: And then you met your, you met your wife and she was the turning point for it. She, she put you in a, how do I say this? She stabilized you. Is that, is that the term?
speaker-0: Well, I mean, so basically what happened, Lee, was I got my wife pregnant before she was my wife. so I had, ⁓ you know, I had it. was kind of a turning point for me. And I decided at that time, it's funny because I don't remember doing this, but a few years ago, she brought it up to me because she found it in her closet. A letter I wrote to her. after we found out that she was pregnant. And it was a letter that I said, you know, she wouldn't actually let me read it. She just kind of told me about it. So I don't remember what I wrote exactly. Yeah, I've been with my wife for almost 20 years now. So at that time, I basically wrote a letter saying, Hey, I promise that I'm going to take care of you. And, you know, and she was crying. when she brought it, when she was talking about it, because she had reread it, it reminded her and she said, she said, and you know, you did. And I think at that time, back then it was like a decision, you know, I had to pass the go down. was either like, figure this out with her and take care of her and have a family and all the things I never had or continue down the path that a lot of my friends and people that I knew went down, which was to, you know, prison or dead. And I picked the right path,
speaker-1: Yeah. They say that they say that your your entire entrepreneur success lies in the person that you choose to marry. And I think that's definitely, I definitely see this as well as you're only as good as your support system at home. And I'm so glad that you met her. Cause look at you now and look at what you're doing now and the opportunities that you're creating for your people. think that's super inspiring. Dude, I honestly do. There's actually two points to this. There's one is guys, if you're listening to this podcast, go hug your wife. And second is call your grandma and tell her you love her, you know, because I think having that stability, you know, matriarchal stability in your life really. really helps you be a better human being. So she came into your life, you know, you guys are pregnant, first one's on the way. That was your moment to say, I need to get my shit together, double dime. When did you walk into cabinetry?
speaker-0: So, so at that time I was, I was a helper. wasn't making much money. I was, you know, I don't know at that time, maybe making $15 an hour or something. And I had to, I had to get it together, you know, no education. I could work, but I didn't really necessarily, you know, have, a trade. I hadn't worked at a couple. actually worked previously to meeting my wife for, for a closet company doing installations. So I had a little of that behind me. I really like, yeah. So I really, did that for a little while. I really, so I kind of had been exposed to it. I really liked churn carpentry. I really liked molding. I felt like like that, that was something I could do. So back then I just started, I was a helper and I started working on nights and weekends doing side jobs. So cabinet installations, crown molding, and started building some things myself in my basement of my house.
speaker-1: Bye. And so when and you did cabinish, because I remember when we when we first started, which was about well, what was that? Twenty twenty three, twenty, twenty four.
speaker-0: think it's been about three years.
speaker-1: It has been about three years. know you've been, you've been with me for a while. It's been incredible to watch you come on this journey, but yeah, 2023, when we had just met, you had kind of decided, right, okay, I'm done with the cabinetry side and you were just making that transition into more specific closet and wardrobes, right? I remember you were doing your cost cards for the first time and you said, I realized that my wardrobe specifically is dragging down my GPM, you know, like, and you just learned what GPM was. And it was like music to my ears when that happened. What was happening at the time where you decided, I'm going to jump into coaching and get some help here? Like what was going on in the business? What was going on with you? You know, what made you pull the trigger and jump in?
speaker-0: Yeah. So, you know, as I had moved forward and, know, I wound up hiring people. got a small shop space at one point and that kind of moved up, but, you know, I beat my head against the wall for, 10 years, probably. I mean, it's all the old sayings that I know now from having a coach and researching and learning is, on, you know, I basically owned a job at that point. So I worked, I made a little bit of money, but I had no idea. zero education, no idea gross profit or profit or anything. just knew, I knew how to work. So I worked a lot. I worked really hard. I tried hiring people and I kind of scaled up a little bit and then that didn't work out and had to let them go and went back to working by myself. I did that a couple of times and I got to the point where working hard just didn't cut it anymore. And I could see, I could see a train coming at me, you know, down the tunnel. And I knew, I knew that I couldn't continue the way I was going and be able to keep my promise to my wife. So it got to, I had some dark days along the way. I had some really dark days before I met you, even when I was a, you know, business owner in quotes, working for myself, you know, it was, it was, you know, had some dark days where I, you know,
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-0: Before I you, Lee, it was... not to be dramatic, but you know, it was definitely almost a life and death situation for me. I had to figure out how to make this work. There was no other path for me. So that's kind of, you know, was, was basically all of it. So working for myself, going through everything that I did in my entrepreneurial journey and reaching out to you was all just desperation.
speaker-1: Hmm.
speaker-0: Certainly.
speaker-1: I think it comes to, you know, like if you were gonna drown, the last thing that's sticking out the water is your hand, you know?
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm. I remember, I remember those early days. And I mean, I don't think that there's, know, your darkest day today is in comparison to your darkest day back in the beginning is like night and day now. You know, but at the same time, you know, and you said this on your last coaching call, you were like, you know, we're, we're just attacking this thing and burning the bridges as we go. I think, I think you use some profanity when you said it, but we're burning the bridges. We've got no choice. We have to keep moving. We have to keep going. And I want to unpack that mindset a little bit for, the guys who are listening to this show, right? The ones who are struggling, who are thinking of packing it in, like, what advice would you give to them? How do you maintain that mindset? Or are you just like, just pure stubbornness at this point?
speaker-0: Well, I mean, the mindset for me, that mindset for me is reality. I make this work and I keep my promises and I take care of my family. And the alternative to that is I don't even want to think about it's not an alternative. I don't have a choice, right? We burn the boats. This is it. We've got to make this happen. And, ⁓ And realistically, Lee, I think that has been more of a help to me than anything else. There is no other alternative. I mean, I'm not going back to my ⁓ cushy job. I didn't start this career on a whim or this business on a whim. This is all I've got and I have to make it work. And there is no alternative to that. That's my mindset.
speaker-1: Yeah. I love that, dude. I love that. It's almost like you're putting the blinders on so that you can only look forward. I think that's super cool. I want to talk a little bit about the business now. And then I've got actually sent out a little bit of an email to some of our other clients, guys who are in the program, who are really looking up to you, right? They see you on our coaching calls. They see you in our mastermind sessions. They hear from you in the school group and they look at Kevin like a closet God, you know, like I want to be like him. So we're to cover some questions that they asked as well, but I want to get a sense of, you know, the business, who do you have, you know, What are you doing? Maybe touch on some of the market and stuff that you guys are doing. I don't want to go too deep. We want to leave some stuff, you know, to the program. However, you know, just to recap where we kind of left off, because Kevin came into coaching for a bit and then he took a break and a lot happened during that break. Can you break that down for us, Kev? Like we were coaching for a little bit. I was trying to teach you about gross profit and systems and process. You you decided to go off on your own for a little bit. Can you tell us that story?
speaker-0: So we were coaching for a bit. I had hired a salesperson and... made a mistake in that hire. And it led me into some, some kind of desperate financial times. It's kind of crazy. She, she, I thought it was just, was, it was my fault. It was just, it was just the wrong, wrong person. And yeah, so I stopped coaching for a little while just to kind of like dig in, do some hard work and get myself back to where I needed to be.
speaker-1: But you had a taste for it. You had a taste for having support on the sales side, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so nowadays, let's fast forward to now. What does the team look like?
speaker-0: That's right. So we currently have 12 employees, including myself. We have two, two man install crews, an installation manager, a shop manager, two shop workers, a design engineer that does a little bit more than just engineering. He's, he's kind of dipping his toe into a general manager type situation. We have myself and we have a superstar salesperson. So the problem I had before the new person ⁓ I found was a gift from God in comparison. So she's amazing. And we recently in the last few months hired an administrator to kind of like sales support and general office administration. And we're actually trying out a new installer and getting ready to spin up a third install group.
speaker-1: Bye. 12 people, right? And coming from, think when we first started, it was you and three other guys, you know, it's a small team. What's the difference in the way that you led your crew and who you let into your business back then? And no, like what's the difference in your mindset of who you let into this business? You know, what does it look like? What did it look like and what does it look like now?
speaker-0: So what it, what it looked like before was very reactionary. I'm going to start using the terms that I've learned from you Lee over the years. So because your voice rings in my head every day now, but it was very reactionary and it was just chaos. And I mean, we still have a fair share of chaos, but it's a little more controlled these days. Back then it was just. pure chaos. Every day I would walk in and in the morning and to, you know, just face a barrage of problems and issues and what are we going to do about this? And I was just, just, just daily putting out fires constantly all day long, seven days a week. So, so what it looks like today is, know, we still have our fair share of fires. We're still implementing systems and learning as we go, but the questions don't come to me anymore. I'm at a, you know, I kind of, I kind of lead from the rear a bit. And, know, another lesson I learned from you is just finding the right people, letting them use their strengths to run the business. I stand back, let them do their thing and ask a lot of questions along the way.
speaker-1: So A players, A players only now.
speaker-0: Definitely and I've learned what an A player is. Yeah, it looks like
speaker-1: I'm going to jump into coach mode for a second for the guys who are listening to this podcast because this is a fundamental lesson in what an A player is. And the reason why I want to talk about this for a second is because your only perception of what an A player is, is how you compare yourself to others. Cause you assume that you are an A player. And it's got nothing to do with skill set. It's got nothing to do with being able to build cabinets, know, install toilets, put up drywall is nothing to do with technical skill and everything to do with attitude and core values. And Kevin, you've seen that, right? You've seen core values. We talked about core, but I actually remember doing your strat call and saying, Hey, let's design some core values. And you kind of, you were kind of like, why do we need those? You know, how important are like when you're looking for A players now, like how important is that? you know, compared to say expertise in building closets or cabinets.
speaker-0: I mean, I've learned and I understand now it's the most important thing. mean, coming where I came from, I always kind of viewed a lot of like core values and, and, meetings and all that kind of stuff that, you know, we initially started talking about a lot of that stuff and I kind of blew it off for a while because I just, it just didn't feel like me. didn't feel, it didn't feel like that's kind of like who I was. I was just kind of. a guy that came in, I'm a trade guy, I get it done. You know, when I came up in the trades, was basically people just calling you an idiot, you know, for eight hours a day. And, know, you know, where it almost comes to like fistfights on a job site, because you brought the wrong amount of change back from lunch for a guy. Like it was rough back in the day. And that was kind of like what I thought you yell at people, you kind of tell them what to do. And then, you know, now we have more meetings than then it's unbelievable the amount of meetings that we have now. And I've come full circle on that. think it's really important where I used to kind of make fun of it and say that wasn't me. I find myself in meetings asking questions and realize how helpful they are and realize how having the right people in those meetings, how important it is.
speaker-1: Absolutely, absolutely. And it must be pretty proud moment for you to be able to sit on those meetings and listen to your guys and real time grow your business for you.
speaker-0: It's surreal. mean, I, some ways I still feel like, like, um, a bit of a fraud. Cause I, like, as I sit there and I hear people, you know, talking, you know, the, people that were lucky enough to have working with us, I, you know, I definitely feel, I feel a little tinge of like, like, is this real? Like, am I really sitting at this table and these people are running this business? And, and, um, yeah, I definitely have that little bit of, uh, of like, um, imposter syndrome, you know, but still so I that's something that I need to get over but But yeah, that's where we're at
speaker-1: I love that man. It's been really cool to watch you, watch you put these things in place, even though they have taken traditionally longer than some other clients in the program. We have a track records of planting seeds six months before we need them, which is kind of cool. You know, I'll drop a topic on Kevin, Kevin will, you know, push it off and then it'll come back six months later and be like, ⁓ shit, we needed this. We actually needed this, you know. And it's not like a, told you so kind of situation is, is, you know, I think I've developed a pretty cool way of working with Kevin where I know what he's going to need in six months and I'll kind of drop stuff in advance before I need it. And Kevin has to learn the hard lesson in between. But I think that comes from, you know, you need the appreciation of why you would need a system or a process or a document or a meeting or a set of core values, which is, which has been super cool, you know, and I don't want to push that on anyone in our coaching sessions that. You know, I'm right. Look at all this cool stuff I've got. Look at all this stuff that I've done. You know, like I learned the same lessons that Kevin, that Kevin went through. learned the same lessons. What most of you guys go through every single day. And I felt either the financial, physical or emotional pain, you know, so it becomes easier to see it coming. And it's safe to say that the way that Kevin's growing his business is when he fixes a problem, he's fixing it so that it never comes back up again, because you've seen what happens when you. just react and put a bandaid on things. You know, now you're a lot more open to systems and process and A players and core values. And think that's amazing. I do want to talk about one of your A players and then get into, into the shop, but tell me, tell me about, and what was an A player to you now, now that you've experienced it.
speaker-0: I mean, I think the number one thing, the number one attribute of an A player is someone that takes ownership in the business and they treat it like it's their own. And I try to foster that in people because I mean, I literally view it that way. So we're at the point now where this is no longer mine. I'm not the best at anything. anymore. I'm not the best CNC operator. I'm not the best crown molding installer. I'm not the best salesperson. You know, there's there's people that are better at all those things in the business now. You know, I, I, I find it's just, you know, finding those people that, know, that that want to be a part of the thing that we have that they don't want a job, they want to be a part of legacy wardrobes. and they're excited by what we do. And it's my job, I feel like now to keep that excitement going and keep growing and doing new things and exciting projects and really engaging in different ways that keeps that excitement going.
speaker-1: Yeah. Something pretty cool happened with your team recently, right? I think you posted about it on LinkedIn and this is coming off of legacy wardrobes being featured in Faces of Design Philadelphia for 2025. They did an article on Kevin. What did your team do, Kev?
speaker-0: They framed the article that was in a magazine and gave it to me for Christmas, which was pretty awesome. And a little note, it was really cool.
speaker-1: What did the note say?
speaker-0: It said, thanks for building something cool enough to be in a magazine and letting us be a part of it.
speaker-1: That's amazing, dude. That's absolutely unreal. And it comes back to those intrinsic values, right? One of the core lessons that we typically teach is like, build your business based on those intrinsic values. And then you're, you know, it's not relying on things like money. Intrinsic values being, build something that gives people that sense that they're part of something much bigger than themselves. that they can be genuine with what they can do and what they can't do. And they know exactly what they're competent at and what they're not competent at, right? They don't have to lie about who they are or what they do for a living. They feel like they're making progress towards a big goal or they're on path of achieving their vision, whether like through you or whether that's the same vision that you have. And then supplemented with, you know, money and status, beauty. I mean, you can't really do much of a beauty for your team, but you can definitely give them opportunities to make more money and definitely give them opportunities to climb the ladder and get more status. But I think one thing that you've really done is, adopted that intrinsic value of, of building something that's worth being a part of, you know, and I think that comes down to you and your intentional culture building. So culture nowadays, like what, you know, when you, when you hear the word culture, Kevin, like, what does it mean? Like, what does culture look like in legacy wardrobes?
speaker-0: So we talk about openly how we have something special and everyone that works here is lucky to be here, including me. And I'm lucky to have all the people here that are working with us. And we need to protect this special thing that we have and grow it. So that's kind of like where we come from. know, that's, you know, that's, that's kind of like our starting point. And, know, we talk about our values all the time. And, and if we run into a problem and, and for instance, one of our, our, our core values is pride in what we design and build. So if we finish something and this has happened and, know, we can't answer that question with I'm proud of that. Well, then we need to fix it and do something different. And, you know, in, whatever we have to do to make that happen. So we try to live up to that. another one of our core values is family first. Sometimes that's a tough one because, you know, a guy has to go to a family event or one of the kids is in a special sporting event in Florida and he has to take off for a few days. And, know, he's already used his time off for the year, but you know, one of our core values is family first. when that comes up, I have to ask myself like, hey, man, this is a family first thing, like, all right, you can go and it's no problem.
speaker-1: I love that. I think it's safe to say that you don't, you know, or how do I say this? You fall to the level of your core values. Those core values are the anchor for your business that makes your decision making easier. Like Kevin just said there, you know, if he's got a guy who's going off for a family thing and it doesn't work for the business and it doesn't work for Kevin and it doesn't work for the schedule or the client, it doesn't matter. The core value is there and it's established and it means what it means and we never deviate from it. And I think that goes for not only time off, but also who gets in on the team, right? There has to be core values on who gets into this tribe. If you want to have the level of success that Kevin is having, you have to protect that tribe because you're only as good as your weakest team member. And yeah, culture is everything. I think that's super cool. Speaking of culture, right? Cause I want to talk about Amy for a second. And if you don't mind, can you share, can you share a little bit about Amy, you know, her background, how you found her and, and you know, some of the big wins that you've had with her.
speaker-0: Sure. So, you know, after the first debacle with our first salesperson that we hired, I kind of went into my shell a little bit, started doing all the sales again and, you know, had a little bit of fear in hiring another salesperson. because of you and working with you, like I knew that that was something that had to happen and I had to hire another salesperson. And so, you know, about a year ago,
speaker-1: Bye.
speaker-0: this month, we had put out some, you I put out some, ads on for, for a new salesperson and we wound up hiring Amy for our second go at the salesperson thing.
speaker-1: So second salesperson taking another risk. Like how are you feeling about bringing another salesperson on having had a bad experience before?
speaker-0: Very worried.
speaker-1: Why did you push through anyway though?
speaker-0: because I knew that if I didn't, we weren't going to get to where we needed to be. And it was a necessary step in order for me to meet my goals. And again, you know, there's no other choice. We have to press forward. We have to push forward. So despite any, you know, fear or reservations, I knew we had to hire another salesperson.
speaker-1: So you, so you, you pushed through, you went looking like what's like, and what I'm trying to get out here is, is if somebody wants to recreate what you have from sales support, you know, what should they be looking for? Like, what does the background look like? You know, when you bring them on board, how do you like, how do you need to train them? Like break that down for us. How did you win with your salesperson?
speaker-0: I mean, I wish I had, I wish I could tell you, you know, I went through this great sales system that I developed after the first one and we onboarded her properly and did everything right. Unfortunately, that's just not the case. You know, she, she had been a designer for another closet company and she had some experience. I got a great, definitely not the way you should do it, but I got a great vibe from her, from the interview. I interviewed her with my wife, which I think was a good thing to do. And she signed off on her and said she sounded amazing. And I didn't do proper onboarding. I didn't do all the things that I should do because I really couldn't at that time. You know, we needed someone, you know, we needed someone to start looking at projects and bidding jobs. So in a lot of ways, I just got lucky. know that's not the answer you want, but that's the reality.
speaker-1: I know, I have no expectation on the answer because I know exactly how things went down. mean, my next question is going to be like knowing what you know now, how would you do it differently? But like, before we get to that, let's stay on Amy for a second. So she had some design experience. She was working for another closet company. So she already knew the clientele, the product, she knew how a shop works. Why would she move over to you guys? Like what was it that made her sage? You know what legacy is the next thing for me and for everything that I want to achieve.
speaker-0: think you'd have to ask her that question because I'm just going to speculate. But I believe that she was really interested in the kind of work that we were doing. I think, you know, through, you know, our social media and things like that, that she was, she was already aware of us. So I think, I think that, you know, it seemed like, it seemed like a company she wanted to be. a part of it fit with her aesthetic, the kind of thing she wanted to design and build. So I think she was just interested by seeing the type of work we were doing.
speaker-1: think that's a super cool tidbit of information there for guys listening to this podcast where your brand is secretly speaking to people in the background, whether you know it or not. if Amy was watching, she was watching you guys on social media, she was seeing the brand that you had built. And by the way, you have an incredibly clean aesthetic brand, like really well branded business that just screams. you know, quality and, and I don't know, I'm smoke up your ass here, right? Like, I mean, you kept it simple. It looks good. You've got really clear brand guidelines. But what my point is, is there's more benefits to having a social media presence and having a good brand than just marketing to customers.
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. mean, yeah, not right. Because, you know, there's trade partners. There's there's a lot of people watching. And there's a lot of people that watch for years before they reach out to you. So there's potential employees watching you. And we've we've gotten I'm sure if I really dug into it that some of the people that work with us now work with us because of what they see on social media.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Which is again, super clean. You know, we follow, follow you guys on socials and we try and like every post. Yeah. You that you guys are doing some incredible stuff. Can we touch on marketing for a second? Cause I want to talk about like, you know, what are you finding is working for you? What have you tried in the past that surprised you that didn't work? You know, give us a rundown, you know, kind of high level of like, what's your, what's your strategy?
speaker-0: So, you know, our strategy right now is building a brand and showing people how we are different from our competitors, you know, through social media, video, that sort of thing, you know, showing them that we're their neighbors, you know, our kids go to the same school, we're community people, ⁓ and also building the brand, we're different. We're not like every other closet company. I think that's pretty evident. you know, we're, we're, ⁓ there there's legacy wardrobes and then there's every other closet company. And that's the message we're trying to send through social media video.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, you guys are doing a really good job on the social media presence, which is always cool. And a big difference between say cabinet makers and closet guys is closets are a lot easier to influence your customer's decision to pull the trigger on closets than it say cabinets.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's probably true. A lot of times with the closet situation, there's more of a functional need rather than just aesthetic. But we kind of want to marry both of those, right? So functional need and aesthetic.
speaker-1: Yeah. How do you how do you balance like your your ideal client? Are they just looking for closets or are they usually looking for kitchens too? And you guys are just saying, hey, I don't want the kitchen. I just want the closet portion. Like, how do you balance that?
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, we, just kind of try to stay focused on what we do best, which, which is, know, which closets, wardrobe cabinets and you know, home offices, we do other, other home organizational stuff. We stay away from kitchens because we know that that's just not in our wheelhouse. And we know that our GP is not going to be where we want it to be. If we do a kitchen, just because of the way we're set up. It's not for us. refer anybody in the kitchen. We have lots of friends and partners and local craftsmen that we can refer them to.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm glad that you brought up gross profit margin. was I was hoping you would.
speaker-0: That's all I think about.
speaker-1: Good, good, good. I'm going to, actually getting ready. I'm going to send Kevin ⁓ a picture of me just kind of peeking out from the side of a frame, watching them, you know, with a question mark saying, what was the GPM on that last project you've done? Just to keep it going.
speaker-0: One of my, one of my favorite moments in the last few weeks was we did a project that was a $20,000 wardrobe and it was actually two separate areas, one smaller, one larger. It was a remodel of a home here in Philadelphia. And, you know, everyone knew it was a home run. We got it done in like two days. It was a great project and. I was getting texts from, from Amy and from my install manager, Chris, after the job was completed. Hey, I wonder what the GP is going to be on this job with like a, with like a winky face. So like everybody's kind of dialed into that. We need, we have a lot more, we have a lot more work to do on that. But the fact that I got multiple text messages from, from other people talking about, you know, excited to see what the GP is going to be on, on that project was pretty awesome.
speaker-1: That's so cool. That's so cool. Yeah another big thing that a lot of people really skip over is getting your guys in tune with your numbers and showing them what success looks like in you know ones and zeros essentially You know because when you can rally people around the the gross profit margin That's the true indicator of success It's not how the project looks at the end like sure that looks great on your Instagram profile But if it took you six go backs to get there Do you really want more projects like that? And the answer is probably no, but getting your team in line with the GP, especially your production guys, your install guys, and then your salespeople so that they can sell good jobs for a high gross margin. Dude opens up so many doors. I love that, man. I think that's the best. Probably one of the biggest things is that if you're walking into 2026 with a crew who are in line with gross profit margin, you are destined to be successful and make a shit ton of money.
speaker-0: We talk about it all the time. mean, and we talk about it as a team. I talk about it individually with members of the team. We talk about it during group meetings. I mean, it's something that we're continually working on. We have a lot more to do. But I I simply say, especially to the production guys, like, look, you know how we have to do X amount of projects a month in order to get enough money to pay our bills and keep this awesome business running? Well, if our GP is just this much more, we don't have to work as hard. We can work less and make the same amount of money or more. So they start to understand it. mean, I mean, frankly, it like helps me to talk to them about it, to hammer it into my own head how important it is. So it's like, you know, it kind of comes back to me, helps reinforce it in my own mind. And it reinforces with the team how important it is. And it literally means more money, less work. And no one can argue with that.
speaker-1: No, absolutely not. And I think another big part to that too is, is GP is really the end of the first leg of, of getting to, getting to make net profit. And for the team, the reason why they should really buy in on that is because net profit is where all the cool stuff comes from. The new vehicles, the new equipment, the new uniforms, the branded yeti cups, the, you know, salaries for future positions in the business, the pay raises. You don't get that without net profit. And if you're not driving that into your team members every single day, and I mean, using it, using gross margin as an example, as a KPI that you tie everybody's roles against, it keeps everyone on the same page. And you you touched on something earlier, you talked about ownership, right? You said, I want all of my team members to own their role in the business. And one of the big lessons that keeps coming up over and over and over again, is that ownership doesn't mean doing all the little tasks and the Vangie Lee ownership means taking responsibility for the result, right? And the result is your gross profit margin. It's not you swinging the hammer yourself and doing everything. It is taking ownership of the result and saying, Hey, I was as much a part of this as Kevin was, or the salesperson was, or, you know, the customer was, it's all about taking ownership of the GPM. And when everybody takes ownership of the GPM, you're almost guaranteed to get a good gross profit margin on your projects. And then lastly, all that's really left over is your fixed expenses. By the time it gets to gross profit margin, that will, that's the sale. So the price that you price that price the job at, and then you're laboring your materials, which are the only real costs of any project. Next is your fixed expenses. And if you have a good admin person, which Kevin now does, and you know, is going through that leg of training them. Well, now it's all about nickel and diamond, your fixed expenses right through to net profit. It's super simple. But I love that everyone's rallied around that number. I think every, if every guy was listening to this podcast episode and they walked away with a clear, clear goal to implement transparency at least to the gross profit margin point with their team, everyone would be making a lot more money. Money, would you agree, Kev?
speaker-0: totally agree. And it's really, it's really a simple concept. But it's surprising how complicated it is, like, like most things, right? Like, like, getting it right. It's a, it's a thing that we're constantly working on and figuring out and changing our mind about what it should be. We keep raising it. What our trust profit margin should be. And, know, we've been having a conversation recently, like where I'm like, Hey, I know this sounds crazy. But I think we should raise our prices and this is why. So it's a hard thing for me to wrap my head around as the owner, right? So it's simple, but it's really complicated.
speaker-1: It's yeah, it's complicated if you don't have the infrastructure to track it so that you can communicate it. And I think starting out, clock in clock out for your team members. Number one system and process that we always teach. And then second is have a system for capturing receipts from your materials. And then literally gross margin is revenue minus labor and materials and burden, sorry, labor burden, but yeah, revenue minus labor and burden and minus materials equals gross profit margin. And I think, you know, obviously, you know, I give Kevin an idea here on what he should be looking at. And then he goes and creates a 20 point spreadsheet, you know, that he understands. But ultimately the point is, is putting the infrastructure in that you can get your, get to a point where you're talking about gross margin with your team. That opens up so many doors and that's honestly one of the, one of the best lessons you could possibly take away from coaching or even just having a conversation with an entrepreneur like Kevin, you know, what were the big things that moved the needle? Focus on gross margin, right? Forget net until you can nail gross, you will win. Hands down.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's how we win and building building building a culture of winners like everyone wants to win and when you explain to them like this is how we win and we're winners. It just it's all come together.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Especially when everybody's trying to beat each other by one point. You know, if you were to compare this into say like NFL football, for example, you know, what are you trying to do? You're trying to get more points than the other team. And that's exactly what we're trying to do here. If all of your guys in your business are saying, well, here's how I can get five points and here's how I can get three points and here's how I can get an extra two points. That's everybody buying in and then everybody wins when you hit that result. And I don't want to come across as we're just greedy. We're overcharging our clients. But what I will say is that we're, we're, it's more about premium, right? We're a premium business. We sell premium products to premium clients who appreciate quality and they're willing to pay for it. And we use that money as our growth fund. It's not like Kevin's rolling around with Rolex is on both risks, both risks driving a Mercedes. You know, it's all about growing that growth fund. so that we can keep scaling the business, right? And you've just went through a phase moving your shop, which we're gonna talk about in a sec, but you're moving your shop. You've invested a lot in the business from all of that 2024 and 2025 net profit that you made, right?
speaker-0: Right. And I mean, we have that conversation too. Like that's part of the gross profit conversation is like the reason why we need the right amount of gross profit is so that we can serve our customers better and be the best and provide better service and better products and better systems for our clients. I mean, that's the it's not how much, you know, how much money we can make and run away with. It's it's how much profit gross profit we can make. to help us better serve our clients.
speaker-1: Absolutely. I see this all the time as a coach. I've been at a point where I've had, you know, seven and a half hours of back to back zoom calls every single day, you know, charging a quarter of what I charge now and how bad a coach I was back at that time. You know, like I just didn't have the time, the patience to coach that many people, especially when the money wasn't there. But when, you know, when we, when I started saying being really selective with who my clients were. You know, like my only work with my ideal client and drilling it down to work with less. I always see that that I have a much better, deeper relationship with every individual client that I work with and less volume, you know, and that's, you know, that's what people really want. They don't want to just throw money at something and then get what everyone else is selling. They want something that's bespoke and custom that you're going to really take your time with and make sure that they're a hundred percent happy with. And I can't compare that to anything better than what you guys do at legacy with high-end work. You care about the customer. You care about your team. You care about your image. You care about your reputation. And in order for you to be able to do all those things, you do need to charge premium pricing. And I think that's totally fair, completely fair. I want to move into the new shop, right? Cause like we said, you've, you've, moved into this new shop and we've got a couple of questions I want to ask you from some of our members as well. But you're in the middle of this transition. What is... What's something that you're really excited about with the new shop and having that additional space? And then what is something that came up that people should know about if they were considering their own move?
speaker-0: So I'm excited about, well, we bought a new edge bander, which is incredible. I'm still excited about that. We're going to be able to do, produce a lot. We already are producing lot more, a lot higher quality edge with our, with our new edge bander. was a ridiculous amount of money, but I think worth it. Infrastructure wise in the new shop, you know, there's, there's a lot of expenses that come up. along the way, you know, because we got a new edge bander, we had way higher electrical needs. A lot of that has to be thought about. had to put a lot of money into electrical upgrades. That was surprising. I mean, not surprising, but like a little difficult. It was a hard pill to swallow after we like got the shop and then realized like, oof, like we have to put how much into upgrading this electrical system.
speaker-1: Right. Right.
speaker-0: Definitely something to look out for. Even though it was a commercial space, it had tons of electric. The types of machinery, the machinery we were putting in there really had an even higher demand than an already commercial space with full three-phase electric and all that. We had higher electrical requirements because of some of those machinery purchases. So it's some hidden challenges there and hidden expenses. One thing that happened right away, as soon as we got to a bigger space is we started producing things way faster, way cleaner, and got rid of our pre-existing backlog almost immediately. We have a lot of things we still need to do on the space, but one of the things I did recently, we were really kind of nerding out about like,
speaker-1: Well...
speaker-0: we can put backs here and lean manufacturing and how many carts do we need and exactly how are we going to move this part from this position to that position? We were really kind of in the weeds on that and it's fun and cool thing to think about. But after just, you know, a month in the new shop, I realized that at, the point we're at right now, since we've already, the new space already gave us so much more capacity, production was no longer a bottleneck. And while all those things are important and we will need to implement a lot of those kind of lean manufacturing ideas and really think about how we're processing materials and preparing materials to go out and storing materials, all that stuff's really important. It's really not a problem for us right now. So we needed to refocus on other things first. And think in the back of our mind, not let that go, but focus on other bottlenecks and then go back to production when that becomes a bottleneck again, after we hopefully sell a lot more closets in the coming months.
speaker-1: Of course. Yeah. So you've moved into this new shop. You've incurred a lot more expenses. Obviously somebody needs to pay for that, right? Or more clients need to be able to pay for that. So your focus is on sales, which is totally fair. But I think you touched on something kind of important as well is, you know, you're, going through this transition to this new shop and you're saying, well, now we have an opportunity to redraw the floor plan. Now we have an opportunity to implement a lot of lean systems, but it's pretty easy to get carried away with that when The goal needs to be, let's get moved and get right back into production as quickly as we can. Would you like, what would you say to that?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. And I think actually that really realizing that in the last couple of weeks really kind of refocused me on what my role is becoming. And that's more of like kind of standing back as you always say, you know, what do you always say to a 130 circle in the battlefield? I'm of, kind of getting that bird's eye view of everything standing back and watching. And that allows me to say, you know, to see like, okay, hey guys, we're focusing on this on a production issue, on, on, on refining production when it's not a bottleneck and not an issue. We have this issue right now. Let's deal with this. So it actually opened up my eyes as to what my role is becoming, which is really that like, keeping people focused on solving the, the problem, the constraint at the time. So what's our constraint right now? How do we fix it? Let's fix it until we're done and we kind of have that solved. And then once we fix that, there's going to be a new constraint somewhere else. And then I will refocus the team on that constraint. Right now, production is not one of them.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I think you guys already have a proven model where you've got an optimized team at A players who follow a system to produce the projects. That's not the area that you need to innovate. If anything, you're innovating the sales department to be able to take on more capacity. And I think like you said too, right? Like you've brought on that sales assistant, someone who's really there to free up time for Amy, your sales girl to do more of what she is great at. You know, and hopefully you don't mind me saying this, but Amy sold over seven, well over seven figures last year. If you think of the level of detail that she has to cross the T's dot the I's on, remove that admin part and let her be the person that, you know, can go out and sell more and attend more estimates or, you know, have her train somebody else, which I think is, I think it's super cool to be able to see from the AC 130 and look down on the battlefield where your troops need to be and then call out the actions to them. You know, like you're no longer a closet business. You're a people development business that happens to make closets. And you're the maestro of this, this art, this orchestra in a sense. And it is really easy when people are given autonomy to run off and say, I'm going to innovate my department, but it's understanding when innovation is needed. And your job is to say, Hey, slow down a little bit and you speed up. I'm going to hire this person. We're going to control things. When was the last time you were on the production floor? Other than that LinkedIn video you posted the other day when I saw you at the edge bander. When was last time you actually had to be involved in a project?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I don't we've been talking about this for years, right? And it's finally kind of coming to fruition, right? So like, and I'm starting to see things that we talked about years ago. But yeah, I mean, I don't I don't really have to do a lot of that day to day stuff. I do like to be around and see what's going on. I don't like to be removed. mean, I like building stuff. In a lot of ways, it kind of sucks. I don't get to do it as much anymore. But, so I am, you know, don't do, I don't, have guys that make stuff. They do a better job than me. We have guys that do install stuff. They're, they're better installers than I ever was. They're awesome. So, so, ⁓ so yeah, I mean, we've, we've, we've talked about this for, a long time, but you know, I really finally got to the point where like, yeah, I'm in the people business. So I used to be the one that was completely overwhelmed and had to wear all the hats and do everything. You know, I'm still, I'm still overwhelmed. We're still not out of the woods yet. I still have a lot to do, but they're just different things. And we talked about this a lot. mean, what we have now is like, now I have my eight players, which are getting overwhelmed. So that's kind of like what we're dealing with right now. Right. So like, like, you know, I have people that are taking responsibility and ownership and, are really awesome. And, you know, we wouldn't be where we're at without them, but You know, I can see that they're the ones that are kind of where I used to be being overwhelmed with the things that they need to deal with. And we've talked about this a bunch, you know, now it's my, like, I have to be in a position as, you know, the CEO to see when that's happening and figure out how to make their lives easier and take things away from them so that they can do the things that they do. really well, more, you know, do more of that and less of the things like, so it's basically everything you taught me to do when we first started talking, I have to teach my employees to do myself. And it kind of goes down the line.
speaker-1: Yeah. It's, comes back to that, that kind of age old saying where your first priority should be to buy back as much time for yourself as you possibly can as the owner so that you can be this, the CEO that's hiring your admin person, hiring your production guy and hiring your salesperson. And then your role changes and you go into that people development mode, you become more of the leader, but your job then becomes to buy back time for everybody else. And I think Kevin's done a great job of that. for sure. Kevin, I'm going to start wrapping up here. We're going to end this on some member questions before I start giving you some questions. The first thing I want to ask is what did hitting your first million feel like?
speaker-0: So that was a while ago now, actually. ⁓ You know, ⁓ for me, I didn't really, I always saw how far I needed to go, so I didn't really celebrate that much. It was great for a minute. I was like, ⁓ wow, we did it. But I got right back to work the next day.
speaker-1: Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: It's like, so what? Yeah.
speaker-1: This is my, this is my biggest gripe with Kevin is he doesn't celebrate major milestones like that. But yeah, like you said, it's been a while since you hit seven figures, you know, you surpassed two this year. You're on your path to three. Hopefully that's okay to say, you know, like you're, you're at this point where now it's, now it's a case of, can't not hit my revenue goal for this year, given the amount of expenses that we've taken on. You said in our last coaching call, you said I've burnt the boats. We burned the bridges, you know, I am, I've got no choice but to move forward. What's next for Legacy Wardrobes?
speaker-0: So we are going to continue on our journey to become the best closet company in Philadelphia. And we are going to engage with the community in our new showroom, is in an awesome neighborhood here in Philly. Actually the same neighborhood I lived with my wife in an apartment when we first met. So it's a little bit of a full circle thing here in the new showroom. We're looking to help people be part of the community and we want everybody in Philadelphia to know about Legacy Wardrobes and to be the number one supplier of an installer of closets and wardrobes in the city.
speaker-1: I love it. I love it. And I fully believe that you're going to do that. I fully believe that even beyond Philly at some point, which we don't have to get into today, but dude, I think you've got something incredible in it and other people can mimic this. Other people can do it. You know, like I think if Kevin's told us anything is this isn't, this isn't exclusive to Kevin. The opportunity exists to everyone out there who has a small closet business to be the legacy wardrobes of your territory or your town.
speaker-0: Me too.
speaker-1: But like, like we've talked about, this has got nothing to do with building good closets or good cabinets. Sure. That's a by-product. That's what we get to the client, but it's all about the people you bring in and the intrinsic values and the way that you grow this business based on your core values. Let me jump to some questions, Kevin. One thing, a couple of things that came in was, you know, transitioning, transitioning technical aspects of the company. like moving your CNC machine, moving your equipment you touched on kind of. electrical stuff like if you were to do it again what would you do differently?
speaker-0: I actually think this time we did everything the right way. mean, we leaned on experts. We had an expert rigor move everything. They did a fantastic job. we hired people that had been around for a really long time to handle all of that, all the technology stuff, partners that we've had relationships with. machinery dealers for a long time. mean, really at this point, that that's what it's all about is, is leaning on all of the people and the relationships that we've built over the years. And, and leaning on those people to help us when this time came. like, luckily, we had already had all of those relationships built with great people and great partners. So when it came time to move, it was a lot less less stressful than it could have been because of the help we had from all our friends.
speaker-1: I love that. Yeah. If anybody wants to rewatch that story, go add Kevin on LinkedIn. You'll see all his equipment on the big trucks moving in. He did a really good job of documenting the transition from his old shop to his new shop. So definitely go and watch that. Next one was how do you manage installs and technical training for installers? And you did touch on this. You're going to, you're ready, you know, go into a third install crew. What is your install training look like?
speaker-0: So, so I'm actually a little removed from that right now. We, we have an awesome install manager, Chris, who's a great guy. He's a Navy vet and he was an installer for California closets. And I kind of gave Chris the, actually, he actually did his job interview in his work van on his lunch break. No way. That's how I knew I liked them.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Yeah, like a little zoom interview. so he's been with us for a while now. He's great guy. And you know, luckily, I have awesome people, man. So Chris is one of one of our other other awesome people. And he he took the reins with with with onboarding a new guy. So he found the guy he set up the interview. He talked to him. I showed up for the interview and I said, Hey, Chris, what do you think? And Chris thought, you know, it was a good a good a good candidate. So we have them, you we have that candidate on a week trial period right now where Chris sent them out with our, you know, with an experienced install crew and he's kind of handling it. So he's looking at all of that onboarding himself and I'm letting him run with it.
speaker-1: Awesome man. Yeah, think that's part of buying back your time as well as hiring guys to keep growing your team. If you have to be involved in every recruitment decision, every interview, know, especially if you're spread out amongst admin, sales, finance, building relationships, you know, how good a job are you really going to do of stacking a crew? So having your production manager or your install manager or your sales manager not be part of that recruitment process. I think you're definitely causing some detrimental issues to the business when you're not including those guys. And I think it comes back to hire A players and then let them build their own team. And that's how your business grows in the background without you having to have hands on. I think that's super cool, man.
speaker-0: I think, mean, if I have to like thinking about that, like that's a thing you have to let go of, right? So that's something I had to let go of. I think, think really, you know, I finally came to the realization, which is a little bit of a hit to my ego, but you know, I'm not the best person at hiring people. usually, I'm the kind, I just kind of like everybody. Like I'm like, ⁓ this guy will probably be a great guy. Like I'm not, I'm not good at it, Like, so like I'm, I'm usually the problem. in all of these processes. So the more I find people that to take over those things like hiring and hiring installers and, that kind of stuff, the I find if I'm honest with myself, the more I remove myself from all of these different things, the better things run.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. And again, not to say that, you know, you're bad at recruiting or interviewing. I think it is some luck, but it's also you holding a standard of who gets into your business. Your guys are going to see that. They're going to see the quality of the people that they work alongside. And when they get into do their own interviews or their own recruitment, they're going to have that standard clearly, you know, planted. in that process. They're not going to let just anybody walk in when you know you're you have a team that's already made up of eight players. They're not going to want to do anything to jeopardize that. So that's.
speaker-0: Because of our culture, when some, you know, it has happened over the, over the last couple of years where someone comes in that is not a cultural fit, you know, it's self policing. Like they let me know without really like, you know, ratting the guy out. They'll kind of, they'll kind of let me know like, Hey man, this, this, this is, you gotta get rid of this guy. He's not a, he's not, he's not one of us.
speaker-1: It's not one of us. They eat their own. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: So, you know, it's self-policing. So it's, feel kind of comfortable. kind of makes having that culture in place makes it a lot easier.
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. Okay. Two, two little quick things here. had another question, but I need to give it some context. So you can't see Kevin on the screen with some technical difficulties with some camera equipment, but Kevin has some very well decorated ears from jujitsu, right? Big Brazilian jujitsu guy. The question that I got submitted and you're going to laugh at this, but it was Nick Hall who's asking, said I would sincerely like to know what would take longer, Kevin submitting me in BJJ or me pinning Kevin in a wrestling match and I was wondering if you had any thoughts on that.
speaker-0: Well, you know, he's been calling me out, man. So I think, I think we might have to have a brave Academy grappling session. Now, now he's a bit younger than me. So, so, and he is, he is a wrestler. So, you know, it's going to be tough, you know, wrestlers are tough opponents, but I think we might actually have to have to have a great, great grappling session and see what happens, man. I don't know. I don't know. He, seems like a tough dude. So it could go either way. You know, got some tricks up my sleeve though. we'll.
speaker-1: 100%. Yeah. Between, between, you know, you, him, Laurent, Steven, you know, some of the guys in the program that are super into BJJ, CrossFit, wrestling. I think we're going to have to do something at the 2027 Brave Academy retreat where we throw the mats out and we're like, right, let's hash this out. You know, we'll give her awards for who did the most revenue, but you lose it if you lose in a wrestling match. think that's fair. think that's Awesome. I'm coming for you.
speaker-0: I love it.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm going to stand and watch. I'll be the ref. I'll put the coach jersey on. I'm a kickboxing guy. It's an unfair advantage to someone who does jujitsu. I want to end on coaching, right? Like for someone who might be on the fence about joining the program or even just getting a coach, even if it's not me, like what would you tell someone who is on the fence? They're having their dark days. You know, they're considering their options. What would you say to someone who's on the fence about coaching?
speaker-0: I mean, there, there is no question that it's, it's the best decision I ever made in business. And, know, besides marrying my wife and having my kids, it might be one of the best decisions I made in my life. And, you know, had we, had we not met, you know, I wouldn't be where I'm at Lee. mean, it's just, you know, it's the truth of it. You know, I didn't know what I didn't know. And, you know, Looking back on it now, you know, I hate to think about it, but had I had the sense to have reached out for help from, from a coach a long time ago, you know, where would I be now? And you know, who knows, maybe it wasn't the right time and you know, life takes the paths that it takes. So maybe it was just meant to be the way it is, but, yeah, man, I wish I would have reached out and asked for help. You know, I was just, I was always a guy that, that never asked for help. I always did it on my own. always figured things out on my own. I never asked for help from anybody for anything for a long time. So I had to get over that. And once I did, I asked for help. I asked you for help. you know, it, it, it made my life. It made not only my life better, but it made the lives of everyone around me better and everyone involved with legacy wardrobes.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: you it made all their lives better as well. So it's not just for yourself. It's, it's the rip, the ripple effect that goes through your family and your community. You know, it's about asking for help and being humble enough to, to admit that you don't have the answers and to reach the goals. You know, the stuff that we do is hard and there's a very small percentage of people that, that get to the, the point where we're at and the levels that we're at and You can't do that on your own. need help. So I'm really thankful for you, man. I'm thankful that you helped me and anybody out there listening that is at a dark point, know, hard work will get you far, but it will not get you all the way to where you need to go. You need that hard work, but you gotta be a hard worker. You gotta be a hustler. You gotta work harder than everybody else, but that only gets you so far. you need help along the way. so you got to reach out, you know, if that's what you want, if you want to be, if you want to find success in business, you know, maybe some people don't need it, but in my experience, it seems like, you you got to ask for help and you need someone to help you, help you on your journey. And you've been that for me. So, so I recommend people reach out.
speaker-1: for man. I really appreciate that, Kevin. Kevin, you've been an absolutely phenomenal client. Your mindset is absolutely the mindset that everybody should have. If everybody was like Kevin, you'd have a lot more big cabinetry businesses. And I think on a personal level, you're the one I relate with the most just given our background and where we've came from. I think You inspire me every time we jump on a call with each other to keep pushing. Your mindset is infectious. And I can't wait to see what you do with that, man. The new shop, the team can't wait to come down and see the new showroom. want to be the one that breaks in that fancy coffee machine that you put in. Yeah, dude, I'm freaking stoked. And I really appreciate your time today and all your wisdom for these guys on the podcast. I know that there's a bunch of guys in here walking away with us, feeling like they know what they need to do next. For anyone who's still on the fence about coaching. Reach out, right? Let's have a conversation. Let's see where you're at. Let's see what you need specifically and see if we can get you at least to the next step or pointing in the right direction. And yeah, this is not the last time you're going to hear from Kevin. We'll probably have him on the podcast again in the future when he hits his 5 million, 10 million, $50 million goals over the next few years. And Kevin, wish you all the best, man. Really appreciate you. Really appreciate the team and what you guys are trying to do in this industry.
speaker-0: Yeah, man, we're gonna do it together league
speaker-1: Hell yeah, buddy. Hell yeah.
