EP20 - Rethinking Maternal & Women’s Mental Health: Finding Help & Being Seen with Dr. Noëlle Santorelli

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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, you've reached the voicemail of Hanna Brett with Connect Call, just leave a message and I'll get back to you soon as I can.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
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[SPEAKER_02]: One for more options.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Hi, Emma.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I got your number from my album.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're a bit overwhelmed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So long story short, my daughter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is, uh, uh, she just had her baby about six months ago.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We also have a two year old, um, and she's just having a rough go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, I guess we're looking for like, uh,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Perinado, therapists or more maternal mothers can go for treatment if you could just give us a call back and they pass it with a child that would be great, just even for a period of time to visit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, it's Hannah Brett with another episode of Connect Call, where I often say I do not have a clinical background, but I do have a PhD for picking up the phones with families in crisis.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I've never said that to a PhD until now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So now I feel really, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo, who
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[SPEAKER_02]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I improve.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, to viewers and listeners who tune in every week, thank you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for subscribing and downloading on all my platforms.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But more importantly, thank you for taking this ride with me because right out the gate, I have wanted the people that I have loved and have just if inspired me in the work we do on my show first.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so with every episode,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so to be the least nervous, so this guest has a very impressive bio, uh, this is, uh, I'm very happy to have Dr. Noel, uh, Santa Rally PhD.
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[SPEAKER_01]: She is a clinical psychologist speaker and a junked faculty member at Emory University School of Medicine.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Her work centers on women's mental health and relationships with particular expertise in relational aggression, the social pressures of modern motherhood, including what she calls the mean girl mom culture, and maternal mental health.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And most important she was, my DBT therapist for adult group,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, just as COVID was kicking off, and we had a really fun time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And Noel was a great facilitator, great therapist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I still use my DBT skills today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, also, and it was a great group member when I showed up always participating during the homework.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you always showed up maybe a little late, but I was there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so today we really, um,
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, well, I've been wanting to get no while.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've been wanting to have you on the show for a while.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we were thinking of what we wanted to talk about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I know people are probably not over talking about the Lindsey Clancy case, but I feel that people who are not, their heartstrings aren't being tugged or do not feel this activation by this case, just don't get it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What we wanted to do today and it's what I've talked about a bit in my solo is this what this month is going to be really geared for and centered around is really women's mental health and what I see what I've seen personally and professionally just such a major gap.
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[SPEAKER_01]: of treating women with mental health issues and correlation to the reproductive cycle.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to have no well on this connect call, not just so much focus on the details of the case, you know, but more from a clinical lens of what was activating, I think, me and others, and just to discuss, you know, this is a real problem that we have in mental health.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and, and, you know, as we talk through this show, I get the, I will get to talk a little bit more about my own personal journey, but there's a major major gap from the medical community to the mental health community, especially in which was shocking to me, by the way, I kick off and say, I've never had children, but it was shocking to me that when you as a parent leave the hospital and you were doing your follow-up appointments for the baby,
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[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, that you're going to be weighing, and these are the measures you need to keep the baby safe, no one is advising, guiding, or giving you any education or the family about tornons or real thing guys, and they can take a dump.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And for some, it can show a baby blues a little bit, maybe some anxiety leaving your child all the way to extremes with postpartum depression and psychosis and the fact that not every mom friend of mine has not been educated on that as they leave the hospital there has the problem, I think right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We get a screener.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I think you do.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's hard for me to recall, but I think it's at your six week post up visit at the upster tritians office.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't even know if you get the Edinburgh postpartum depression scale, which is screening device that might be what they administer, but it's a very brief maybe 10 questions.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, you're filling it out in the waiting room while you're like, am I going to be back in time to feed the baby like right a lot of people just phone it in right right like there is a touch point, but it it feels like feeling like feeling like feeling faces that you have to feel like how you feel today like.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, with like the face and like a 10 high distress with like the right and so it is a screening measure, but again I and we'll get into this as we talk about this particular case and what it triggered in some women, but also the idea that there's something I think part of what's been so triggering for so many women.
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[SPEAKER_02]: is not just, you know, maternal or post maternal mental health, but just mental health in general, but you can, the health care system at large, is that we are starting to feel so much like we're check boxes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think part of what's so triggering for many women on both sides of the spectrum, one side of the spectrum are women saying, she didn't get the care she needed, she didn't get the care she deserved.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Which I, you know, can absolutely, you and I are both, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But then you've got the other end of the spectrum that says, wait a minute, she got more care than I ever was offered or could ever even a brain, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: So then they're activated because they're like, she saw 14 doctors.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I got zero.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it and or they're obsessed with where the CVS cams were.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that too, but yes, but in terms of life, like the access through mental health care.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people are saying, she
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[SPEAKER_01]: I can speak on that in that two ways I can speak on that professionally I will say these are my two takeaways immediately out the gate and this also I need to say this and I say this to my wife last night because she knows more than anybody I am true crime expert extraordinary right I love a who done it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This case hit me so differently right out the gate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't about any other detail.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Then I wanted to hear her story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I immediately honed in on what happened because professionally I have to tell you she and her husband.
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[SPEAKER_01]: did 10 times more than most people do when asking for help.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just wait, and if anyone disagrees, they're not in the business of mental health, they literally advocated for themselves more than most.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and they got more than most, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like a lot of people don't have access to the possibility for partial hospitalization program or to prescribing mental health, you know, nurse practitioner and the psychiatrists and the ability to stay at McClent.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like
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[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of people can't find any services.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but I will also say, and I don't know what's worse, and I can't get them to say it, but I'm going to say it is, and I talk about this in my solo, why this also activated me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you saw me in DBT group shortly thereafter is,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, as someone who was a helper knew how to ask for help, knew the best in the country.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and um, literally asked for help, went to residential treatment for my mental health at the age of I can't even remember, but I was over the age of 35 and why I say this is there is a study by Harvard.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That says that any woman over the age of 35, if they not around pregnancy, but they start displaying mental health symptoms first and foremost, let's check out their hormones and check out their levels and really check out a detailed screen of that that may be an endocrinologist is not able to do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: first and foremost, which was never done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when I was put into a mental health treatment, hormones were never looked at.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just fed because it was insurance-based treatment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was in people, I'm will explain this as the show goes on in more episodes, the difference between private pain, insurance sometimes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You will see multiple doctors for short periods of time who don't
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[SPEAKER_01]: build a rapport with you who don't know you and immediately want to diagnose and Medicaid, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you leave that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're on the wrong medication.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You're still feeling bad, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I and and and and and McCleain is an amazing, amazing hospital and it is an amazing program and they didn't in my opinion in a lot of ways to wrong what was
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because I say this because I also went to one of their private pay programs is again, there is a gap where no one is thinking we need to check her levels, her hormones, and why I say this, is I kept saying to the doctors.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And different than Lindsay, I wasn't in a psychosis, but I pleaded with them and said every month I'm actually tracking my moods and I'm telling you for three days out of that month.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I am coming to you like the girl from the ring.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I see dark.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I remember this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Remember we talked about it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I remember this is what brought you to DBT.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was all darkness, suicidal ideation to the point that had a bad, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, couldn't, couldn't felt out of body, a talk of the body snatchers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't me, and as soon as that curtain would go, and then it would pull back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And after I advocated, and I looked in medical journals and had to find Dr. Carly Snyder, who's an brilliant reproductive psychiatrist who's going to be on the show, and I, and after having my cycle, which I talk about on this program,
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[SPEAKER_01]: where I really connected with Lindsay was I know what it felt like in four months to be changing rapidly these meds like this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And when anybody says I'm getting activated just talking to why anybody says
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, judgment here or she had this or that, I got to tell you something, when you are suicidal or you start hearing voices or seeing things or wanting to hurt yourself or others, I promise you you so desperately want to feel better that you will start calling talking to boxes and saying, well, let's change this med.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because that's what I did.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I started asking doctors to, can we take that med and push this med?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's try this med.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was so desperate that I literally felt like I was losing my mind in my sanity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is what led me to my stay at a hospital here in the Atlanta.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I had a gynecologist, then God, I found this man, Dr. Bells, and he said, you know what Hannah sounds like you've got this condition.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We call PMDD.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I go, what's that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like a very menopausal, I can't say the whole thing, something something disorder.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And based the work disorder.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It shows up in women.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It pre-menstrual.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It shows up and it literally is like, I'm getting like three days of postpartum depression every month, just getting smacked with it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And because the hormones.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Are not communicating with my neurotransmitters very well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so if anyone may sayers are like, and I think this is what activated me is I heard her.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I saw her and I believed her because I got an eighth of what she experienced.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And this is somebody who worked in the industry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so someone asked me on another interview I was doing.
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[SPEAKER_02]: what could they, what should they have done differently in advocating for her care?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I've got some some answers, but I had to really dig deep to find them because they did more than, I mean, they did more than with the average consumer or person looking for mental health care,
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[SPEAKER_01]: do.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And any troll out there on social media who's giving their opinions, especially the guys across me up, but any women too, which it's really disheartening to see women not banding together on this, if anybody is giving opinions, unless you have walked in this walk maybe, you can't
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[SPEAKER_01]: Literally, I had difficulty when I'm even screening a call or sometimes for them to say, I have depression because the safe word is anxiety, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's easier to say I'm anxious than it is to say I'm depressed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: the fact that when I read her my charts and everything she disclosed and we still like nobody is even correlating it's it comes down to this disconnect and why also no and why these things are important like when we find out the DSM 5 the DSM is our the holy grail in mental health right
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[SPEAKER_01]: is, yeah, it's a specifier and I also just quick before we go into the questions and you this was going to happen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also know we have a problem because when I, and I did, I got really activated with this case in some of the commentary that I started reporting some people on Facebook and what was shocking to me is I brought it all the way to the board.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I brought it all the way to the
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they get like, you appeal, you appeal, you appeal, and then you get this board of, if it, what is it if it doesn't go against community standards?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Violate community standards, I think.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I asked, what are the community standards that need to be violated?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, we need to know, basically the information they are putting out is as dangerous, like basically being a vaccine, they say, where people can die.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I said to them, I go, here is the problem right here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I go, you're not even, I'm telling you, this individual had said that hormones are not A, B, and C.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I said to him, you are wrong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Here's an article.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Here's a medical journal.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Here are the facts.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And Facebook, sorry, and putting you out there, meta, said to me, they were like, that's an opinion.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is, in fact, like, oh, nobody is a fact.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's, that's the problem is, it's on many levels.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Nobody is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is,
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[SPEAKER_01]: is getting the magnitude of what can happen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so when we've been like you and I or people like you and I are so activated, it's not that we're ignoring the tragedy that is unfold.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are screaming from the rooftops so that these children did not die in vain so that more children and moms not let it happen again.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Can get help.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know exactly.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what could we as, you know, being in the industry, what we collectively do differently, what did we miss, you know, keeping an open mind not necessarily being critical.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But being more open-minded in our, you know, constructive criticism about what can we teach differently to people coming into the field and what can we do differently for people who are already in the field.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you've touched on this last night and we're totally going off script here, but I and I believe this I think our biggest problem is we.
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[SPEAKER_01]: tend not to be humble and say hey the Europeans are doing this better maybe we should listen to what they're doing because I know for a fact just because I'm originally from the UK and I know for instance with women who have babies now not only is the maternity leave of like a year and paternity is like six months but now they have individualized the maternity and paternity based on the need of the mother.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Based on that's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: See section based on if there's mental health issues based on the progress.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are literally case managing each case.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not this blanket statement of three months, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So like in her case, for example, her anxiety, she was great for the first three months.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And she was home and when her husband was on paternity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: All of the anxiety got triggered for her.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She had it seems pre-existing a history of anxiety.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: That
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[SPEAKER_02]: return to work was too soon for her.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And her baby who wouldn't take a bottle.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and we've just got this hard and fast rule that doesn't take into account at different circumstances for different people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when the first question is like from your, you know, clinical lens, what was missing in our assessment, I hate to say it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: At first, you and I connected on this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: with all due respect to some of the providers, a heartbeat was missing from some of these people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I have to say it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, I absolutely, I mean, one of the things...
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[SPEAKER_01]: Remember what we're doing here at the end of the day?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the thing that I think about, you know, the first thing, and again, this is constructive criticism.
18:38.256 --> 18:38.676
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
18:39.536 --> 18:43.737
[SPEAKER_02]: This is not meant to be judgmental.
18:43.797 --> 18:44.257
[SPEAKER_02]: Not at all.
18:44.857 --> 18:48.618
[SPEAKER_02]: It's meant to help us learn how to do it differently, right?
18:50.305 --> 19:00.404
[SPEAKER_02]: but it felt to me hearing her primary providers, which would be Dr. Tuff's and Jolata and like the people she initially saw, actually even the Dr. at McLean.
19:01.501 --> 19:05.742
[SPEAKER_02]: She was a checkbox, she was a checkbox.
19:06.182 --> 19:19.245
[SPEAKER_02]: And from my training from the way I work, I work with people, I don't work with computers or I don't work in the hard sciences.
19:19.265 --> 19:23.106
[SPEAKER_02]: So the quality of the soft science, right?
19:23.186 --> 19:25.807
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the blending of art and science.
19:25.887 --> 19:30.448
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I can use the science, which is a validated depression
19:31.649 --> 19:38.215
[SPEAKER_02]: a form that sort of I add up to see how many points you score on anxiety, but what's missing is the art.
19:38.656 --> 19:39.136
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
19:39.517 --> 19:40.518
[SPEAKER_02]: The art and the heart.
19:40.738 --> 19:40.958
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
19:41.098 --> 19:42.360
[SPEAKER_02]: I saw the art of art.
19:42.380 --> 19:43.020
[SPEAKER_02]: We're missing.
19:43.301 --> 19:43.861
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
19:44.041 --> 19:44.862
[SPEAKER_02]: Both missing.
19:44.902 --> 19:45.983
[SPEAKER_02]: The art and the heart.
19:46.324 --> 19:50.208
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I can cover my ass and protect boxes all day long.
19:51.392 --> 20:01.096
[SPEAKER_02]: But if that person isn't connected to me, right, if I'm not a safe space, because I don't feel human to them, or I haven't developed rapport, right.
20:01.116 --> 20:03.416
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course they're not going to tell me their deepest darkest fears.
20:04.257 --> 20:08.158
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, I think a lot of what I expect them to, right?
20:08.678 --> 20:12.920
[SPEAKER_01]: And I often say this in a lot of my episodes, I believe, um,
20:13.760 --> 20:34.428
[SPEAKER_01]: Must struggle has been real with my depression and my anxiety and the places it has taken me solely for me to try everything and see for myself and I can say this you know And this isn't to discourage people from seeking treatment asking for help the point of this podcast has always been
20:35.508 --> 20:39.911
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to show you the red flags and I'm going to really highlight the green flags, right?
20:39.931 --> 20:40.071
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
20:40.452 --> 20:52.340
[SPEAKER_01]: And something that is so important is whether it is your medical physician, whether it is a surgeon, whether it is a psychiatrist or therapist, they see you.
20:52.701 --> 20:54.302
[SPEAKER_01]: You are not a number and my
20:57.584 --> 21:05.887
[SPEAKER_01]: He was in this movie, Patch, where it was a true story of this guy who basically went in, it's like a dream.
21:06.247 --> 21:12.009
[SPEAKER_01]: He went into a kid's cancer ward as a clown and pretended he was a doctor, and he treated them with humor.
21:12.389 --> 21:18.531
[SPEAKER_01]: And he got in trouble and went to court and they were like, you're not a doctor and dead, dead, dead, and he has this beautiful quote and I'm gonna about box it up.
21:18.571 --> 21:21.492
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like, if you treat the disease, you're gonna lose.
21:21.552 --> 21:23.773
[SPEAKER_01]: If you treat the person, you will always win.
21:24.513 --> 21:38.998
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know exactly the providers that I've had in my life, and I've had a lot where they saw me, you were one of them, where they wasn't like just checking a box and in that box.
21:39.418 --> 21:42.599
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, where it's seeing the whole picture.
21:43.199 --> 21:46.180
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not about judgment.
21:46.280 --> 21:47.221
[SPEAKER_01]: It really is, I mean,
21:50.610 --> 21:52.652
[SPEAKER_01]: We, it's an honor to do this work.
21:52.772 --> 21:54.293
[SPEAKER_01]: It's honor to help people.
21:54.814 --> 22:14.350
[SPEAKER_01]: But you've got to remember, you know, everybody, you know, and I think something that I pride myself and that I love is like, especially with young adults, is finding the right therapists and psychiatrists that can see those kids where, you know, yes, Dr. Soinso has all these credentials, but I gotta tell you, Junior isn't gonna be saying anything to this guy.
22:14.650 --> 22:35.439
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to, he won't look up from the clipboard, you know, and, and it was my experience from the cycle that I was in, they were just a series of doctors that would come in, they wouldn't look at you and they would just check a box and, and, and I was like, you can't hang your hat on that and also they don't, I'd be like, hi, my name's Hannah, you don't know me.
22:36.572 --> 22:43.218
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will say, you know, part of why this isn't judgment, but this is more what we need to change.
22:43.778 --> 22:50.845
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what we need to change, right, is I have the luxury of working in a private practice.
22:50.985 --> 22:58.772
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in a private practice where I do not take insurance, which means I can meet someone as long as I want.
22:59.605 --> 23:01.466
[SPEAKER_02]: My sessions can go as long as they want.
23:01.946 --> 23:02.166
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:02.306 --> 23:10.349
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not beholden to an insurance company for the or any organization for the amount of sessions I can see someone or the length of time.
23:10.549 --> 23:10.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:11.249 --> 23:13.290
[SPEAKER_02]: So for example, Dr. Toffs.
23:13.310 --> 23:17.091
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if she took insurance didn't take insurance, but that was her primary psychiatrist.
23:17.331 --> 23:17.711
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
23:17.771 --> 23:21.913
[SPEAKER_02]: Her zoom sessions were documented as being 17 minute sessions.
23:22.350 --> 23:25.493
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, but I have an in defense of in all network.
23:25.693 --> 23:31.679
[SPEAKER_01]: I have met 15 minute providers who have literally rocked my world, you know what I mean in those 15 minutes.
23:31.759 --> 23:44.272
[SPEAKER_02]: I have it may not feel like enough now the provider or for the client to warm up enough in 17 minutes and I and I will say the 17 minutes was the treatment time.
23:44.628 --> 23:44.888
[SPEAKER_02]: right.
23:44.908 --> 23:50.593
[SPEAKER_02]: It was probably a 30 minute session when you add on, you know, the hi how are you and then the scheduling at the end.
23:50.814 --> 23:51.074
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:51.114 --> 23:54.557
[SPEAKER_02]: That may not be enough for someone to develop the type of rapport.
23:54.957 --> 23:55.238
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
23:55.278 --> 23:59.261
[SPEAKER_02]: I think is needed to share the darker sides of yourself.
23:59.942 --> 24:05.307
[SPEAKER_01]: My gosh, like I. I had to tell you is, and again, I am I was not this.
24:07.153 --> 24:24.780
[SPEAKER_01]: this woman that I know no matter where the courts decide whether prison or this hospital, this woman will be living in her own hell for the rest of her life, hell, every day she could be sitting on a beach and she'd be living in hell every day.
24:25.360 --> 24:29.622
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she's still on one to one watch for years later.
24:30.962 --> 24:34.166
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, three years later, I mean, the minute she gets the opportunity.
24:34.346 --> 24:34.546
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
24:34.606 --> 24:34.847
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:35.367 --> 24:35.648
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
24:35.708 --> 24:35.948
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
24:36.268 --> 24:37.450
[SPEAKER_02]: She's been on one to one.
24:37.570 --> 24:38.391
[SPEAKER_02]: You know what watch.
24:38.671 --> 24:39.051
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:39.452 --> 24:40.613
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it.
24:40.914 --> 24:43.617
[SPEAKER_01]: And Kevin Rettington brought it to the surface for me more.
24:43.777 --> 24:46.099
[SPEAKER_01]: If you really look at it, it is kind of crazy.
24:46.280 --> 24:47.922
[SPEAKER_01]: But you meet somebody for 15 minutes.
24:48.422 --> 24:53.364
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're like, okay, lithium, okay, you know, it's kind of insane.
24:53.464 --> 24:56.546
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of, yeah, we didn't do need to change some things.
24:57.066 --> 25:01.167
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, yeah, and I do believe, forget about even women's mental health.
25:01.348 --> 25:02.828
[SPEAKER_01]: Just mental health in general.
25:03.488 --> 25:13.353
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe, and I said this on previous episodes, even with people that are at risk of hurting themselves and others, and putting them in these quote unquote cycles,
25:14.233 --> 25:16.395
[SPEAKER_01]: it should feel more of a psych hug, not a hold.
25:16.596 --> 25:26.947
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's so punishing, it is so traumatizing, and it shouldn't, it shouldn't feel like girl interrupted anymore, and it still does.
25:27.547 --> 25:28.248
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
25:28.488 --> 25:31.591
[SPEAKER_01]: And on a good day, on a good day, and I feel that,
25:32.642 --> 25:35.683
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, I'm not a policy maker changer.
25:35.743 --> 25:36.883
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't change the laws.
25:36.923 --> 25:39.324
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, you know, any director of any hospital.
25:39.724 --> 25:41.664
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's just to me common sense.
25:42.104 --> 25:45.125
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's where we are dropping the ball for women.
25:45.845 --> 25:47.726
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are the changes we need to make.
25:47.906 --> 25:54.567
[SPEAKER_01]: First and foremost, because I ask you, you know, with your clinical expertise, what do you think is missing with this assessment?
25:55.687 --> 25:59.348
[SPEAKER_01]: Simply, I would just start calling other countries and seeing what they're doing.
26:03.380 --> 26:12.890
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think a couple things like that are perhaps more tangible for like the average provider who's not at the policy level or change level.
26:13.050 --> 26:21.639
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yep, when someone isn't getting better and someone now nurse gelada nurse practitioner gelada.
26:22.760 --> 26:24.442
[SPEAKER_02]: There were days where
26:25.206 --> 26:34.172
[SPEAKER_02]: Lindsay would send, I wasn't formally counting, but it seemed like an upwards of six or seven my chart messages back and forth and forth and one day.
26:35.653 --> 26:50.163
[SPEAKER_02]: That right there when the person is local and she was local, when someone's not getting better or is meeting that much support outside of an outpatient treatment setting, you say, hey, listen, why don't you come in?
26:51.302 --> 26:55.483
[SPEAKER_02]: So one of the things, and I'm not anti virtual therapy at all.
26:55.603 --> 26:56.743
[SPEAKER_02]: I do half and half.
26:56.844 --> 26:58.584
[SPEAKER_02]: I think virtual therapy is wonderful.
26:58.704 --> 27:01.005
[SPEAKER_02]: I can do a lot of my clients who travel.
27:01.025 --> 27:02.325
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
27:02.445 --> 27:11.367
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful tool, but it doesn't mean we should forget the importance sometimes of what we can get from in-person communication.
27:11.828 --> 27:15.829
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are just certain things when you're with a human being.
27:15.849 --> 27:16.949
[SPEAKER_01]: My therapist says that.
27:17.829 --> 27:22.152
[SPEAKER_02]: you just, again, it's the art, it's the art and the heart part.
27:22.552 --> 27:36.020
[SPEAKER_02]: When someone's continuing to decline, right, or not improve, or seems to be an acute crisis, which someone sending me six or seven my chart messages a day, is an indication to me that something's off, right, could that in
27:38.822 --> 28:06.299
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right, but it's irritability for it's like restlessness like what was that my immediate response is that required an in person assessment and this person did live in town it's not like she was in California on her providers were embossed right they were all in the same vicinity number one I think we missed some opportunities to see her in person 2020 has got us way too comfortable right.
28:07.368 --> 28:08.857
[SPEAKER_02]: showing up on screens again.
28:08.958 --> 28:10.286
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a wonderful tool.
28:10.820 --> 28:17.184
[SPEAKER_02]: I use it all the time for ongoing or supportive psychotherapy or for people that aren't in acute crisis.
28:17.304 --> 28:23.068
[SPEAKER_02]: But when someone's in an acute crisis or something's not getting better, we need to assess them in person.
28:23.388 --> 28:23.668
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:23.788 --> 28:35.535
[SPEAKER_01]: And we need to talk, again, when we're talking about the baby's welfare, the welfare of this child that we're definitely on locked in for the first year, definitely, like,
28:38.834 --> 28:43.897
[SPEAKER_01]: But there should be just with every doctor's appointment, like it was funny, I'm working with this pediatrician out of San Francisco.
28:43.917 --> 28:44.637
[SPEAKER_01]: She's amazing.
28:44.737 --> 28:50.080
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was saying to me, her practice, she treats mental health, the same priority is physical health.
28:50.440 --> 28:56.363
[SPEAKER_01]: So every child that comes to her, as they're getting physically assessed, she also is a team that is mentally assessing them.
28:56.923 --> 29:00.344
[SPEAKER_01]: because, and I'm like, why doesn't every pediatrician do this?
29:00.444 --> 29:05.206
[SPEAKER_01]: And she goes, we should, because here's the thing, and this is what I meant to say before, and I didn't.
29:05.846 --> 29:18.330
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I think what also activated me is, I remember in my darkness, even to say, and I only said it a couple times, I'm having suicidal ideation.
29:18.830 --> 29:22.672
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so hard to say those words, because it was so scary.
29:23.672 --> 29:35.697
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that anyone's out there judging her, that she didn't verbally verbalize, that she was going to hurt herself or her children, like this is where I'm like, you have no idea the shame.
29:35.897 --> 29:36.878
[SPEAKER_01]: You have no idea.
29:37.258 --> 29:45.181
[SPEAKER_01]: I have girlfriends who had babies, and I remember they would be anxious about leaving their kids, or anxious something bad would happen.
29:45.441 --> 29:49.203
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I want to have a conversation with them about it, they'd be like, oh, nothing.
29:50.423 --> 29:50.843
[SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.
29:51.024 --> 29:52.525
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to eat the rest of my placenta.
29:52.885 --> 30:14.761
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it's just like it's also built in this culture as women as, you know, that we shouldn't talk about it and you know, I'm watching it now with menopause we just we don't we don't discuss and right and it's a major thing and it's it needs to first and foremost be acknowledged, I think,
30:15.802 --> 30:37.860
[SPEAKER_01]: the first thing I think that can help as providers is just when you bring in the baby for an assessment, you need to be bringing in the parents for an assessment and that kind of goes into my next question because what it was only when I went to see this doctor, doctor Stevens in Houston, to assess some of my medication years back.
30:38.000 --> 30:40.943
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember I went for an evaluation with him first
30:44.125 --> 30:49.369
[SPEAKER_01]: So we did an hour with me and then he did an hour with my wife Stacey and I was just like, why do you need to do that?
30:49.489 --> 30:51.811
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, because I need to know how you're showing up at home.
30:52.531 --> 31:01.858
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to know from the point of view of the spouse, what are you seeing that she is not talking about because it's just natural, you know, what they see.
31:02.118 --> 31:03.579
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'll be like, no, I'm not that bad.
31:03.599 --> 31:04.280
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm this and that.
31:05.120 --> 31:05.280
[SPEAKER_01]: And
31:06.575 --> 31:15.358
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, we, we, we, we, I believe Patrick Lancy, I believe he didn't know how to do better or more.
31:15.518 --> 31:15.858
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
31:16.158 --> 31:24.400
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I got to be honest, we're also dealing with a family with all due respect that are a child and labor delivery nurses and they do know what to do.
31:24.980 --> 31:29.762
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's just acknowledging and I pray there is change.
31:30.522 --> 31:43.870
[SPEAKER_01]: that people recognize that we need to equip all parties involved is is the saint if we're going to treat this baby and take care of this baby then let's take care of the parents as well and to properly do that.
31:45.351 --> 31:47.672
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think just having, you know,
31:49.180 --> 32:00.298
[SPEAKER_01]: Another level of assessment, and I guess my question to you is, is like, what questions as therapist psychiatrists the team should be asking that maybe wasn't asked?
32:01.205 --> 32:09.529
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the other thing besides, you know, in terms of the assessment and what questions should have been asked that were not going to the future for women in the future.
32:09.549 --> 32:10.110
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure.
32:10.490 --> 32:25.558
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, one is again, get in person if you can if symptoms are escalating or not getting better, right number two, I think we underutilized the value that a full psychological evaluation can provide.
32:26.332 --> 32:43.568
[SPEAKER_02]: because that is so much more thorough, shout out to clinical psychologists that is one of the things that I believe only we can do with psychologists is these psychological assessments or like a neuropsyched battery where we're also looking at personality dynamics and characteristics.
32:44.142 --> 32:59.413
[SPEAKER_02]: So if there was over control going on in, you know, for example, this person's temperament, like, is that a source of the anxiety, then you can start asking more targeted questions about how well, you know, so you don't not everyone needs a psych of valve.
32:59.913 --> 33:04.538
[SPEAKER_02]: But a sick, a quick psychiatric assessment is very different than a full cycle of children.
33:04.578 --> 33:15.508
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember reading when you would post about that and I thought to myself because I looked up the statistics and they said I think one in five or one and eight women deal with some sort of mental health issue around their pregnancy.
33:16.088 --> 33:16.429
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
33:16.549 --> 33:17.810
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, those are pretty high numbers.
33:17.990 --> 33:24.977
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think at this point, that should just be standard that midway point six months you are getting a psyche now.
33:25.645 --> 33:29.068
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, in a sake of Val, like, I don't know if I'd go that far.
33:29.228 --> 33:30.969
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll know what you're, okay, go on.
33:31.049 --> 33:32.511
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't need one, for example.
33:32.551 --> 33:37.935
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I didn't feel that I needed one because I wasn't, I wasn't suffering to the extent that this person was.
33:38.015 --> 33:40.717
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, you know, I had some baby blues, but they got better.
33:40.777 --> 33:49.404
[SPEAKER_02]: They remitted, like, but when someone is really stuck or a treatment team is stuck, I think we forget that we don't just have to prescribe another prescription.
33:49.825 --> 33:52.186
[SPEAKER_02]: There are other tools we can use,
33:55.589 --> 34:05.792
[SPEAKER_02]: full assessment of how someone is thinking, feeling, their personality, their background, you're getting collateral, it's a full, full report.
34:05.832 --> 34:07.533
[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking to the spouse, possibly.
34:08.193 --> 34:12.214
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, 100% we get collateral for a psych evaluation.
34:12.234 --> 34:13.795
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's what all the experts did.
34:13.835 --> 34:16.716
[SPEAKER_02]: What all the experts came in and did was a psych of valve.
34:16.996 --> 34:17.476
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
34:17.716 --> 34:17.876
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:18.076 --> 34:20.837
[SPEAKER_02]: I always request that earlier on, right?
34:20.857 --> 34:21.297
[SPEAKER_02]: My patients.
34:21.925 --> 34:24.306
[SPEAKER_02]: when treatment is not working as planned.
34:24.486 --> 34:24.787
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
34:24.827 --> 34:28.088
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think in person meetings are overlooked.
34:28.449 --> 34:28.749
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:28.809 --> 34:31.530
[SPEAKER_02]: Psycho full, psych evaluations are overlooked.
34:32.511 --> 34:36.213
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we need to teach people, you know, I was trained at Grady.
34:36.773 --> 34:37.733
[SPEAKER_02]: So what, what?
34:37.753 --> 34:38.194
[SPEAKER_02]: Grady?
34:38.794 --> 34:39.314
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:39.334 --> 34:40.115
[SPEAKER_01]: Shout out to Grady.
34:40.135 --> 34:40.495
[SPEAKER_02]: You know,
34:41.881 --> 34:51.011
[SPEAKER_02]: So level one trauma hospital, you know, I think there were some statistic, like 80% of the patients are also prisoners like or coming over from Fulton County.
34:51.111 --> 34:51.351
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
34:51.571 --> 34:54.074
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, it was a rough place here.
34:54.134 --> 34:54.534
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
34:54.775 --> 35:00.721
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but like it was a rough, you know, my husband came to visit once and was like, I will not be coming back.
35:00.821 --> 35:01.222
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like.
35:02.179 --> 35:23.752
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, but we were trained so heavily, so I worked with chronically suicidal women, right, also had access to disorders, you know, the personality disorders, we were trained to never shy away from the uncomfortable questions.
35:24.313 --> 35:30.057
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think most people who are trying to for like an outpatient facility or an outpatient.
35:30.078 --> 35:31.999
[SPEAKER_02]: This is so important, right?
35:32.119 --> 35:34.861
[SPEAKER_02]: You ask, yeah, are you having thoughts of suicide?
35:34.901 --> 35:35.802
[SPEAKER_02]: No, okay, great.
35:36.142 --> 35:41.967
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you having thoughts of killing because they're afraid that if they ask it or put it out there.
35:42.167 --> 35:43.608
[SPEAKER_02]: And so happy you said that.
35:43.648 --> 35:43.868
[SPEAKER_02]: Right?
35:44.048 --> 35:45.389
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, parents do this, right?
35:45.690 --> 35:47.411
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, I think my team.
35:47.611 --> 35:50.814
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't want to put it in their head.
35:50.974 --> 35:51.274
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
35:51.314 --> 35:52.515
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was trained.
35:52.828 --> 35:54.408
[SPEAKER_02]: completely the opposite.
35:54.428 --> 35:56.229
[SPEAKER_02]: I was actually telling a colleague this today.
35:56.269 --> 35:57.129
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, it's funny.
35:57.589 --> 36:01.990
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm actually super aggressive when I do my risk assessments, right?
36:02.190 --> 36:04.130
[SPEAKER_02]: Because she was saying, well, what were they supposed to say?
36:04.170 --> 36:06.490
[SPEAKER_02]: They asked him the person said, no, right?
36:06.630 --> 36:07.951
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I said, it's interesting.
36:08.351 --> 36:13.552
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying this is the right way, but this is the way I was trained in the way I do it is I am aggressive.
36:13.772 --> 36:16.272
[SPEAKER_02]: And so or persistent, I should say.
36:16.632 --> 36:18.793
[SPEAKER_02]: So someone said, you're so aggressive.
36:19.193 --> 36:19.953
[SPEAKER_02]: I am aggressive,
36:21.553 --> 36:35.165
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, and if that comes in and says on Friday, I'm suicidal, right, and then they say to me on Monday morning, J. K. I'm fine, I'm like, no, what change.
36:35.225 --> 36:36.626
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, tell me more about that.
36:36.666 --> 36:40.490
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, what was the moment when did you decide not to what changed your mind.
36:40.610 --> 36:42.932
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you changing like I will did.
36:43.271 --> 37:01.012
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because they can't necessarily going to be forced coming right about suicidal ideology or suicidal ideation right like and again we were we were needing to discharge people right and so oftentimes people will say I want to go to a birthday party I'm not suicidal anymore.
37:01.232 --> 37:03.993
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I can't take that at face value.
37:04.273 --> 37:10.596
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think what you just said is so spot on because what I thought right out the gate is just someone who's never had a baby.
37:11.097 --> 37:12.437
[SPEAKER_01]: This is what I thought was.
37:13.117 --> 37:14.178
[SPEAKER_01]: I know what's happening here.
37:14.298 --> 37:22.642
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the most joyous moment in a parent's life who wants to be like, wow, wow, and there's a one in five chance.
37:23.142 --> 37:26.183
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think people don't because I saw it with like I said,
37:30.619 --> 37:34.780
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was like, and I'm like, yo, we need to talk about this.
37:35.361 --> 37:41.703
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, because I don't have postpartum this and I don't have that anxiety about my baby that.
37:42.003 --> 37:42.983
[SPEAKER_01]: But I can tell you two things.
37:43.243 --> 37:48.065
[SPEAKER_01]: One, when you struggle with any sort of mental health, you don't want to feel like you're alone.
37:48.485 --> 37:48.986
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
37:49.326 --> 37:51.386
[SPEAKER_01]: Two, you want to,
37:53.407 --> 37:58.791
[SPEAKER_01]: not feel like you're crazy when you're speaking to a prescriber or a first.
37:58.811 --> 38:06.815
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember when I was in the UK, and I was in a COVID lockdown, you know, a firewall lockdown, so we were forced.
38:06.835 --> 38:15.721
[SPEAKER_01]: We had to do the telehealth, and I needed my my my progesterone and some of my medications prescribed and I had to use some
38:19.103 --> 38:29.595
[SPEAKER_01]: There were a couple doctors who were kind of shaming when I said PMDD and this one doctor, I remember, he goes, and I said, I go, yeah, that's for my PMDD and he goes, oh, whatever that is.
38:30.076 --> 38:35.902
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said to him, I go, sir, can I say something to you and he goes, yeah, I go, it's okay not to know what that is.
38:36.203 --> 38:39.626
[SPEAKER_01]: It's okay that you are not an expert in that.
38:40.327 --> 38:41.248
[SPEAKER_01]: I understand that.
38:41.708 --> 38:53.697
[SPEAKER_01]: But what's not okay is then you took a fall at and make me feel like I'm this big because because you can't just understand the stay in your lane, you don't know it, and that's okay.
38:54.058 --> 38:59.982
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just asking, you know, I'm telling you, but like sometimes, and that's also a piece of this, and I'll say it.
39:00.683 --> 39:05.046
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen some of the best kind of colleges in Atlanta, and five out of six
39:10.150 --> 39:15.790
[SPEAKER_01]: because there's also, and this is what I'm going to talk about, Carly Snyder, there's a disconnect with
39:17.492 --> 39:23.695
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I will sit with some gynecologists and I'm like, women with fibroids have mental health issues related to it.
39:23.715 --> 39:27.336
[SPEAKER_01]: Women who have endometriosis have mental health issues.
39:27.396 --> 39:27.816
[SPEAKER_02]: PCOS.
39:27.916 --> 39:29.857
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are we talking to us about this?
39:30.237 --> 39:30.438
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
39:30.858 --> 39:35.740
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and that's a thing about, you know, not that I want to be aggressive, but not aggressive side.
39:36.020 --> 39:36.240
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
39:36.260 --> 39:40.842
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, assessment or risk assessment, harming children.
39:41.440 --> 39:47.099
[SPEAKER_02]: But what that also does for the person in the room or even on the television set as
39:48.288 --> 39:50.951
[SPEAKER_02]: Kevin running and says, but on the Zoom, right?
39:50.971 --> 39:58.458
[SPEAKER_02]: Like the more comfortable I let them know that I am with it, the more comfortable they are with it.
39:58.778 --> 40:00.000
[SPEAKER_02]: Now I'm doing it.
40:00.020 --> 40:01.221
[SPEAKER_02]: So important.
40:01.281 --> 40:02.642
[SPEAKER_02]: But with sharing it, right?
40:02.682 --> 40:04.965
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to push someone to do it.
40:05.565 --> 40:09.449
[SPEAKER_02]: But if I say, listen, you told me Friday, you were having thoughts to do it.
40:09.489 --> 40:10.210
[SPEAKER_02]: What were you thinking?
40:10.430 --> 40:10.790
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:10.870 --> 40:11.051
[SPEAKER_02]: What?
40:11.191 --> 40:12.292
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, how far did you go?
40:12.652 --> 40:13.694
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
40:13.734 --> 40:15.437
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell me, okay, you don't have ideation.
40:15.457 --> 40:15.717
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
40:15.897 --> 40:16.678
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have a plan.
40:16.739 --> 40:18.221
[SPEAKER_02]: If you did have a plan, what would it be?
40:18.581 --> 40:18.982
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:19.383 --> 40:21.145
[SPEAKER_02]: And you'll know if, you know, if they...
40:21.987 --> 40:24.328
[SPEAKER_02]: or, you know, I'll push the limits, right?
40:24.348 --> 40:25.209
[SPEAKER_02]: Let them know.
40:25.329 --> 40:26.870
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll say, I'm comfortable with this.
40:26.950 --> 40:27.290
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:27.830 --> 40:31.132
[SPEAKER_02]: I promise you, you're not going to tell me anything I haven't heard before.
40:31.152 --> 40:31.832
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:31.852 --> 40:32.593
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about it.
40:32.613 --> 40:33.313
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's okay.
40:33.333 --> 40:34.794
[SPEAKER_02]: To the more, and it's nothing.
40:34.834 --> 40:35.594
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing you're saying.
40:35.614 --> 40:37.415
[SPEAKER_02]: You're going to have to.
40:37.455 --> 40:37.675
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
40:37.715 --> 40:38.756
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to help you.
40:39.216 --> 40:41.657
[SPEAKER_02]: Me talking about it comfortably and openly.
40:41.877 --> 40:48.341
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a perception that it's going to push someone in that direction and it's actually quite the opposite.
40:48.842 --> 40:49.945
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had quite the opposite.
40:49.965 --> 40:51.849
[SPEAKER_01]: Two doctors make me cry.
40:51.869 --> 40:55.817
[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Stephens was one of them, who literally just looked at me in the eyes on a zoom.
40:55.837 --> 40:57.982
[SPEAKER_01]: And just said the words.
40:59.187 --> 41:00.067
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you're tired.
41:00.287 --> 41:03.908
[SPEAKER_01]: I can feel, you know, and just met me and heard me.
41:03.928 --> 41:10.409
[SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds so silly, but it just, and listen, there's so many great providers out there.
41:10.749 --> 41:14.910
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you find those who just hear you, right?
41:14.930 --> 41:17.790
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's, it's, and see you.
41:18.090 --> 41:21.851
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's why I also want to stress why America fell in love with Kevin Reddington.
41:21.891 --> 41:26.592
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not because of his, his, I mean, he does have amazing criminal defense skills.
41:26.632 --> 41:26.972
[SPEAKER_01]: He does.
41:27.713 --> 41:31.174
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we got to watch a man, which is also awesome to watch.
41:31.374 --> 41:35.596
[SPEAKER_01]: But a man, yes, he was hired for this job, but more than that.
41:36.236 --> 41:44.439
[SPEAKER_01]: He has advocated for this woman and women in general's mental health more than anybody.
41:44.619 --> 41:52.342
[SPEAKER_01]: And like advocated, you know, and these her and is fighting for her in that way, you know?
41:52.422 --> 41:53.003
[SPEAKER_02]: And we love it.
41:53.063 --> 41:53.523
[SPEAKER_02]: We love it.
41:54.503 --> 41:58.186
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I know you and I were like never we haven't even talked to the questions.
41:58.246 --> 42:18.423
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I know one of the things I wanted to share with you when we're talking about this the art and the heart of it and the sort of like building I really think like a huge takeaway is that rapport and that art of it, but there was a study done in the late 70s where you know this is like, you know early graduate school lore, but like all told the story.
42:19.764 --> 42:26.330
[SPEAKER_02]: They had college professors with no training whatsoever in psychotherapy.
42:26.790 --> 42:28.792
[SPEAKER_02]: Give psychotherapy to college students.
42:29.313 --> 42:35.498
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they had expertly trained people who had tools and resources give therapy.
42:35.879 --> 42:41.064
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they were rated at the end of the study about how much improvement they felt.
42:41.744 --> 42:42.924
[SPEAKER_02]: after the therapy.
42:43.144 --> 42:43.484
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow.
42:43.804 --> 42:47.905
[SPEAKER_02]: And all the college professors had was a desire to do well.
42:48.586 --> 42:51.786
[SPEAKER_02]: The only tool they had was how to connect with a human.
42:51.926 --> 42:54.327
[SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have any skill, therapeutic skills.
42:54.387 --> 42:54.847
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:55.567 --> 43:03.369
[SPEAKER_02]: But that rapport was so important that the people in the college group with the people who weren't trained in psychological techniques.
43:03.529 --> 43:03.889
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:04.269 --> 43:05.409
[SPEAKER_02]: They improved just as
43:09.813 --> 43:30.998
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it's the heart, it
43:31.158 --> 43:37.027
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got to tell you, and this goes across the board, like I remember even, you know, with my mom's oncologist in the UK, God bless him.
43:37.768 --> 43:41.795
[SPEAKER_01]: He came from the training of we only look at the patient in the eye, not the family member.
43:43.297 --> 43:44.459
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really horrible.
43:44.939 --> 43:45.781
[SPEAKER_01]: And also,
43:46.882 --> 43:49.246
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't hang my hat on how brilliant you are.
43:49.266 --> 43:55.094
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay for like when it comes to life and death and when it comes to my mental health, I'm going to come to anything.
43:55.674 --> 44:00.862
[SPEAKER_01]: I got to know that you're on my team fighting the good fight, you know, and I mean, and that you hear me and see me.
44:01.422 --> 44:03.205
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I guess.
44:04.146 --> 44:06.547
[SPEAKER_01]: Before we wrap up, I want to say a couple of things.
44:06.567 --> 44:08.828
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I were talking about this last night because we were looking it up.
44:09.168 --> 44:20.994
[SPEAKER_01]: Something that also needs to change is when we were looking up, you know, because definitely I think what was needed that didn't happen with Lindsay, was an extended stay in residential.
44:23.335 --> 44:27.717
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then bring in the children, but they're needed to be a substantial stay.
44:27.938 --> 44:43.645
[SPEAKER_01]: And what we just saw was a lot of stabilization, which are short stays kind of like these crisis safe stays like I did kind of but they're not treatment and they're not staying with the patient to build the report to have the time to work on medication.
44:43.966 --> 44:50.049
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, when I was looking up programs for I'm going to say this on prenatal right prenatal mother.
44:51.189 --> 45:01.273
[SPEAKER_01]: They're very native, very native care mothers, you know, week both came across five units in a hospital in the whole country.
45:02.033 --> 45:04.394
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll tell you is someone who has also been inpatient.
45:04.574 --> 45:08.135
[SPEAKER_01]: And for those who don't understand and that's why I stressed it in an episode.
45:08.155 --> 45:12.917
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a very big difference between a residential stay and when we say the word unit,
45:13.597 --> 45:14.738
[SPEAKER_01]: it is hospital.
45:14.878 --> 45:15.758
[SPEAKER_01]: It is white walls.
45:15.798 --> 45:16.859
[SPEAKER_01]: It is exit signs.
45:16.939 --> 45:17.739
[SPEAKER_01]: It is locked.
45:18.259 --> 45:23.102
[SPEAKER_01]: It is not one and fuzzy and cozy and you probably don't want your kids in there as well.
45:23.742 --> 45:26.183
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not going to be for an extended time.
45:26.384 --> 45:32.607
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we really, my hope is this conversation continues.
45:33.167 --> 45:40.231
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do hope this because this case is, to me, has this magnitude of like a roversus
45:43.172 --> 45:47.933
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, you know, they read some guy wrote somewhere in large bunch of feminists.
45:47.973 --> 45:48.954
[SPEAKER_01]: They're okay.
45:49.074 --> 45:50.634
[SPEAKER_01]: Child murder.
45:50.914 --> 45:58.256
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, actually, I'm caring more about these kids lives than you do, because I don't want this to happen to another child.
45:58.556 --> 46:00.557
[SPEAKER_02]: And it is a domino effect, right?
46:00.577 --> 46:03.198
[SPEAKER_02]: Like right, only these three children, but you look in the eyes.
46:03.218 --> 46:04.538
[SPEAKER_01]: You destroyed the lives.
46:04.558 --> 46:06.959
[SPEAKER_02]: The husband, the grandfather, everybody is
46:07.439 --> 46:23.235
[SPEAKER_02]: The sisters like right like it's it's the domino effect right people are traumatized completely by curiously or not even by curiously I mean they they're whole lives have children cross yeah you know and and that's also where I didn't understand when certain people online we're saying
46:23.975 --> 46:27.116
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, Patrick's, you know, on vacation or in a marathon or got married so quick.
46:27.136 --> 46:28.676
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, are we watching the scene movie?
46:29.236 --> 46:30.737
[SPEAKER_01]: I go on gone.
46:31.137 --> 46:36.658
[SPEAKER_02]: He is some of the comments I get are, oh, you know, I support Ted Bundy.
46:36.938 --> 46:37.178
[SPEAKER_02]: Ted.
46:37.298 --> 46:37.818
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
46:37.838 --> 46:45.680
[SPEAKER_02]: That was supporting men like you women or support, you know, I mean, a one other final thing, and then I promise no, and I have one more question.
46:45.920 --> 46:50.501
[SPEAKER_02]: Huge piece that was missing is the cross communication between writers.
46:54.182 --> 47:06.309
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like that is one besides doing psych evaluations and psychological assessments and being really really good at a differential diagnosis, which is one of like the key strengths of clinical psychologists.
47:06.369 --> 47:11.191
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not paid by the clinical psychology board, by the way, I just happened to really believe in us.
47:11.511 --> 47:11.811
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
47:12.592 --> 47:13.132
[SPEAKER_01]: You're the best.
47:13.212 --> 47:14.833
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's communication, right?
47:14.913 --> 47:15.093
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
47:15.313 --> 47:16.774
[SPEAKER_02]: I consider myself a quarterback.
47:17.875 --> 47:18.335
[SPEAKER_02]: I run.
47:18.952 --> 47:19.893
[SPEAKER_02]: I run the team.
47:20.234 --> 47:26.121
[SPEAKER_02]: I run the treatment team and I am, I am individual independent, but like my client.
47:26.822 --> 47:30.206
[SPEAKER_02]: I had the treatment team right I'm calling her DBT coaches.
47:30.366 --> 47:33.289
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm calling her psychiatrist.
47:33.309 --> 47:34.751
[SPEAKER_02]: I might be calling her husband.
47:34.811 --> 47:36.153
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've got a client who.
47:36.607 --> 48:03.958
[SPEAKER_01]: goes in and out of acute psychosis she's brilliant right she knows when she gets delusions but she doesn't want me to know right because she she she believes her mission she's you know this is this is it I always I said it on every episode you want to work with providers who not only want to collaborate but want to work as a team so you as the one thing the takeaway is if you have a psychiatrist therapist any kind of any as soon as you meet with them sign a release yes
48:04.398 --> 48:28.192
[SPEAKER_02]: So I've got to release and everyone can do all for her husband so that when I don't see her in person she's out of state she's not going to tell me she's having delusions because she knows I'm going to take them away from her and she wants them when she's having them right she she she believes them so I have to coordinate with psychiatry her husband and other people to say hey heads up.
48:29.422 --> 48:30.143
[SPEAKER_02]: Just keep an eye.
48:30.183 --> 48:31.985
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a little pressured speech today.
48:32.606 --> 48:33.127
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep an eye.
48:33.147 --> 48:36.732
[SPEAKER_02]: There were some eye shifting go at like there were some subtle signs.
48:36.892 --> 48:37.513
[SPEAKER_01]: True true.
48:37.833 --> 48:40.757
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're communicating right next person is like.
48:41.365 --> 48:44.566
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got an interesting email today as well.
48:44.846 --> 48:45.146
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
48:45.166 --> 48:48.466
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're all in collaboration from day one.
48:48.626 --> 48:51.167
[SPEAKER_02]: So it becomes comfortable and easy to communicate.
48:51.387 --> 48:51.627
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
48:51.647 --> 48:54.227
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can all be on the same page and catch little things.
48:54.327 --> 48:54.607
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
48:54.807 --> 49:01.829
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm dealing with this actually with the young adult right now, where we've got two people on the her treatment team that don't want to connect.
49:01.909 --> 49:02.969
[SPEAKER_01]: And they've released a sign.
49:03.229 --> 49:05.609
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, that's a red flag danger danger abort.
49:05.649 --> 49:09.110
[SPEAKER_01]: We've got other people that will care about your red flag nature red flag.
49:09.270 --> 49:10.611
[SPEAKER_02]: major, major red flag.
49:11.011 --> 49:17.797
[SPEAKER_01]: So no, well, um, I didn't ask you this in the beginning, you know, before we got on the show, where we were like, oh my god, we're not going to go an hour.
49:18.597 --> 49:19.618
[SPEAKER_01]: And two things.
49:19.998 --> 49:24.322
[SPEAKER_01]: One, what I'm always interested to know what brought you to this work.
49:24.702 --> 49:25.843
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us quickly?
49:25.963 --> 49:26.623
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm not quickly.
49:26.783 --> 49:29.686
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish I, I wish I knew.
49:29.706 --> 49:31.807
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I was, I was born this way
49:36.507 --> 49:40.189
[SPEAKER_02]: I, you know, had some traumatic experiences early on in life.
49:40.670 --> 49:47.554
[SPEAKER_02]: And as the eldest daughter, I think I just assumed the position of, you know, caretaker.
49:47.574 --> 49:54.958
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the more, but also I've always like, I mean, from a birthday ever year, I wanted to visit Salem, Massachusetts.
49:55.238 --> 49:57.720
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was so interested, like, what?
49:57.860 --> 49:58.221
[SPEAKER_02]: Why?
49:58.241 --> 50:04.667
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I was so interested in tear, like, like, understanding thing on a different level.
50:04.687 --> 50:05.167
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
50:05.207 --> 50:06.528
[SPEAKER_02]: Then face value.
50:06.548 --> 50:10.472
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I've always been interested in people as puzzles.
50:10.532 --> 50:16.277
[SPEAKER_02]: And once I found out there was a way to actually try to do that from a scientific perspective.
50:16.317 --> 50:16.697
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
50:16.918 --> 50:19.140
[SPEAKER_02]: I was just sold hook line and sinkers.
50:19.780 --> 50:40.493
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I've also really always loved about you is you always come up like you're you're always learning and you're always kind of you're learning yeah but you're so you are you are that dream therapist for client you are so invested and so in the fight and I and I and I that's why I wanted you to speak on this.
50:41.253 --> 50:50.642
[SPEAKER_01]: particularly in this case because I know that you know a lot of people are giving their clinical expertise, but I got to tell you you have been working full time doing everything you do and you have been.
50:51.485 --> 50:53.606
[SPEAKER_02]: The way you ball to the walls, Hannah.
50:53.746 --> 51:02.950
[SPEAKER_01]: But the way you have, like, I have been like, yeah, no, well, like, I have been leaning on you with this case because I see that you were seeing it through that lens.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I also trust how you are seeing it and how it's activating you in the best and worse, you know, in the way that we want change.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Last question, if we had a caller on, and I will say this in my show notes, any resources I can find.
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[SPEAKER_01]: for mothers and distress with children that need to access care.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Those five units, I will have them listed in my show notes, or you can contact my producer and we will get you some more information.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But, no, well, if you have a caller and I always end like this with all my guests.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's a mother or somebody and parting words, if you know, you're not going to be able to speak to them again.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like if there's one thing you want them to hear, what would it be?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe there's people, there's people fighting for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like the idea of Mr. Rogers look for the helpers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like times when I felt really alone or really scared in a problem I'm having or situation I'm dealing with feel so isolating.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and hopeless and hopeless.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when there's people right by you, there may be a stranger in Target who's who, you know, is rooting for you that you don't even know is rooting for you or that would be that person for you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So,
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[SPEAKER_02]: that idea of look for the helpers always comforts me, even if they don't come in the form, we would expect them to come in.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's so true real quick, because like you were my first provider after my cycle, and I didn't trust anybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was scared to say booed anybody, and
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[SPEAKER_01]: It just immediately felt safe and it was like, okay, like, this isn't going to be all bad and there are people out there fighting for me and talking to my therapist and actually wanted to help me and hear me absolutely so when you're scared look for the helper for the house in.
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[SPEAKER_02]: the form you think they should be in, right?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It might not be your psychiatrist or your psychologist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody's gonna hear you.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It might be the person smiling at the checkout line at Baker who says are you okay?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And to those moms out there that are struggling and women out there that are suffering and struggling, please know you are so not alone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Even if we don't talk about it, you are so not alone.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And there are resources.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm only gonna talk about more as the episodes go on.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Hannah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We'll want to have you back hopefully in the future.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And just another great episode of Connect Call.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We'll see you next week.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Make sure to subscribe and download on Apple Spotify and YouTube.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning into this episode of Connect Call.
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[SPEAKER_01]: As we conclude, remember that insights shared are intended for information on educational purposes only, and should not substitute professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We strongly recommend consulting a qualified medical, health professional, or health care provider for personalized advice tailored to your unique needs.
54:01.748 --> 54:05.151
[SPEAKER_01]: Your mental health journey is important and having the right support is essential.
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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're experiencing a mental health crisis or require immediate assistance, please reach out to a mental health provider or emergency services in your area.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're grateful to have you as part of our community and your well-being remains our priority.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So follow us on social media to stay connected and be sure to catch one of our episodes on our YouTube channel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're here to support you every step of the way.