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00:00:02.640Welcome to Confessions Beyond the Food.
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00:00:05.120I'm your host, Nancy Redlin.
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00:00:08.240Let's dig in and get inspired.
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00:00:15.919Have you ever heard someone say, if only the training had been better?
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00:00:18.879What if training isn't actually the problem?
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00:00:26.879In this episode of Confessions Beyond the Food, I'm joined by Michael Wolf, Director of Learning and Development for CIFA.
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00:00:33.840Michael came into the food service industry just four years ago after spending most of his career outside of it.
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00:00:43.280That fresh perspective has challenged a lot of the assumptions many of us have about training, leadership, and what it really means to learn.
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00:00:56.079We talk about why experience doesn't always make someone a great teacher, why organizations often misunderstand the role of training and the habits that separate great learners from everyone else.
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00:01:07.040If you lead a team, train employees, or just simply want to keep growing in your career, I think you'll walk away looking at learning in a completely different way, like I did.
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00:01:08.239Let's dig in.
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00:01:11.680Welcome, guys, um, back to Confessions Beyond the Food.
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00:01:17.040I'm super excited, as always, um, to have Michael Wolf.
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00:01:19.920He's the director of learning and development for CIFA.
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00:01:20.879Hey, Michael.
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00:01:26.239Hi, Nancy, and hi to all of those folks out there in podcast land that we can't see.
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00:01:29.040Yeah, so let's just jump in.
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00:01:37.760So we got connected just recently um through a CIFA webinar through American Metalcraft.
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00:01:40.079So what were you what were you guys doing on that podcast?
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00:01:47.840Yeah, so we we run as as part of the the offerings that we that we deliver to our members, part of our training services.
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00:01:55.359Um we do a series of webinars that are sponsored by our supplier partners for our dealer members.
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00:01:58.000Um American Metalcraft was one of those.
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00:02:03.120Um, but we have a longstanding partnership with uh with our rep groups with Mofsi.
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00:02:06.480Um I believe we've actually sponsored their conference for the past couple of years.
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00:02:08.639So very, very proud of that history.
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00:02:16.400Um, and so we extend an invite outside of our traditional membership to our to our manufacturer reps and to our rep groups.
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00:02:20.960And so it's, I believe one of your folks was on that webinar.
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00:02:24.400Uh, and so that's how that's how this whole journey started.
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00:02:30.400Well, my partner in crime got off the call and immediately texted me.
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00:02:31.039Oh dear.
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00:02:35.599Said, hey, I've got your next guest for the podcast.
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00:02:36.319Uh-huh.
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00:02:39.599And and here, here we are regretting every minute.
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00:02:40.879Um, but yeah.
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00:02:43.039No, loving every minute.
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00:02:54.560So, and it was funny because when we had our introduction call um before, just to kind of figure out like these, like, who are you?
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00:03:02.319And just because you because you didn't know and you didn't necessarily trust your partner and kind of like, who would who did you send me to do this podcast?
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00:03:08.479I, you know, typically if Tracy, she's got, she's got eye for good talent.
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00:03:19.199So, and and and really she was very impressed um with how you handled that webinar and um just your overall enthusiasm.
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00:03:25.680And honestly, within like three minutes of our call, I knew that he would be an awesome guest.
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00:03:26.560Oh boy.
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00:03:33.680Yeah, no, I I have no idea what happened during the during those first three minutes that made you think this was gonna be a good idea, but here, but here we are anyway.
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00:03:36.240So let's make first impressions.
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00:03:38.560So I'll own it.
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00:03:42.240I I okay, I probably I guess I can.
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00:03:43.840Um that's that's fair.
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00:03:45.120Um, but no, happened.
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00:03:47.520I'm I'm glad Tracy made the connection.
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00:03:49.120Um glad to be a part of it.
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00:03:50.080So here we are.
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00:03:52.479Tracy made the connection, we're off and running.
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00:04:04.879So one thing that really stood out in our conversation um was that you've only been in food service for about four years, which in our industry practically makes you brand new.
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00:04:08.240So tell us about your career before CFA.
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00:04:15.280Yeah, and and I'm I'm glad that I'm glad that you say that because I continue to at least try to play the I'm still new card.
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00:04:20.720Um, so you're one of the few people who has allowed me to continue to play that card beyond like a year or two.
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00:04:24.399Um, so I appreciate the vote of I'm still relatively new here.
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00:04:25.439I'm a learning guy.
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00:04:29.519And so when people ask, like, what's what industry do I operate in?
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00:04:33.839Well, during my career as a learning professional, I've industry hopped.
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00:04:40.879Every every industry has learning or training or or job support or human performance, whatever you want to call it.
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00:04:47.360And so I've spent my career, which I was since we last chatted, I'm like, gosh, I've been doing this a while here.
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00:04:57.040I'm just, I'm not going to admit how long it's been, but in some way, shape, or form, helping people learn better, delivering designing training in a whole host of industries.
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00:04:58.959I've worked internally at organizations.
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00:05:04.000I worked as a consultant outside, helping an organization build a course or build training.
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00:05:22.319Started in online training, what used, you know, the very beginnings of e-learning, which has become fairly popular these days, but since branched out into all things related to performance improvement, whether it's a course, whether it's a live event, um, all things related to training, spanning uh a crazy range of industries.
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00:05:36.560Everything from you know, Food ServiceNow back to pharmaceuticals, back to uh even was involved in a project related to you know teaching kids about fire safety.
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00:05:40.319Um and I still moonlight actually as a as a math tutor.
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00:05:42.639So I still connect one-on-one with high schoolers.
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00:05:48.959So every when you say, What was I doing before CIFA and before food service, I was doing learning.
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00:05:50.720That's what I've done my whole career.
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00:05:52.800What a great career.
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00:05:55.920And and you must be smart if you're a math tutor.
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00:05:59.839Well, I'd I'd the the the subject matter, okay.
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00:06:04.959Yeah, some of it is things that that most parents don't remember anymore and they can't help their kids with.
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00:06:09.360Um, one of my colleagues at CIFA actually is notoriously not great at math.
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00:06:12.240Um, this topic comes up on a semi-regular basis.
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00:06:17.680Um, and just the other, just just within the past week, um, I sent her a link.
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00:06:27.920Uh, it's it's some YouTube family that does does parodies of songs, and they took the old 80s staple Africa and turned it into algebra.
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00:06:29.680If you haven't heard it, Google it.
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00:06:36.160Funny as heck for many of the folks out there who cannot relate to when their kids take have to take math.
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00:06:40.720Um, so I don't I don't know if I'd be, I don't know if that makes me smart or not if I know math.
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00:06:47.360It just means I have some whole bunch of neurons that are devoted to remembering stuff that we really don't need that much anymore in real life.
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00:06:49.439Well, everyone has their gifts.
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00:06:52.800So I appreciate you calling that a gift.
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00:06:53.439Thank you.
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00:06:58.560So um what attracted you to the food service industry?
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00:07:06.240You know, it was it was the it was the polar opposite of what I of what I was doing before.
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00:07:09.759My the most recent industry that I operated in.
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00:07:14.480Um, and it it takes a second because I say it and people are like, what?
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00:07:18.959Um so I supported actuarial scientists.
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00:07:21.439And you're like, what's that?
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00:07:23.680Like, what's actuarial science?
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00:07:28.959Um it's it is uh it is math related, so it kind of resonated with me.
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00:07:31.040Um, but it's math on steroids.
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00:07:33.920So there's it's it's very, very high-end statistics.
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00:07:43.439What actuaries do, I like to think of it as they they put together models of how the world works, um primarily to look at risk.
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00:07:55.519So, for example, actuaries are the folks who help insurance companies decide how much to charge for a life insurance premium based on when you have this set of conditions, what is your life expectancy?
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00:07:55.839Right.
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00:07:59.839So that's that's at the core of what actuaries do, but there's so much more than that.
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00:08:03.360Um, but they do like high-end statistical analysis.
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00:08:11.920Very ivory, very ivory tower, heavy academic, um, very rigorous path to becoming credentialed as an actuary.
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00:08:16.240So you're you are designated as someone who can officially comment on these kinds of things.
00:08:16.639 -->
00:08:23.360And then you then you juxtapose that with our food service, which is as concrete as it gets, right?
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00:08:30.480In our it, we we provide service, we sell widgets, it's equipment that people use to cook food.
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00:08:32.399And that's what we do.
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00:08:39.679Um, so I think there was there's a practicality to it, it's it's well grounded, it's it's just real.
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00:08:41.600You can touch it, you can feel it.
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00:08:51.919And there's that aspect of it I found really interesting in contrast to this very kind of esoteric stuff that I was dealing with before food service.
00:08:52.559 -->
00:08:54.879I mean, you're basically on two different planets.
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00:08:56.240You can take a new planet.
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00:09:00.240It it is, it is a it is a whole other world.
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00:09:03.360Um, and it's it's a lot of fun.
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00:09:05.679There's a there's a lot about it that I like.
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00:09:14.639And so, but that's probably what initially attracted to me to uh to the industry was was just how how different it was from the world that I was operating in at the time.
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00:09:18.720So, what surprised you the most coming into this industry?
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00:09:20.559Surprised me the most.
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00:09:24.320Well, I I heard coming in.
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00:09:29.519Um, firstly, people talk it within within CIFA, people talk about the CIFA family.
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00:09:32.320Um, and I thought that that was just a phrase.
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00:09:37.360And I also heard this rumor that um the industry tends to suck people in.
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00:09:40.559Like once you're in, it's like the Hotel California situation.
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00:09:43.679Like you can check on anytime you're like, you're, but you're never leaving.
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00:09:46.399Um and so I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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00:09:48.000Um, no, really.
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00:09:53.759Um at our at our CIFA events, it is like getting together with old friends.
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00:10:00.320And it's, I think, I don't know if it's I don't want to say that I was coming in not expecting that, but just people talked about it.
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00:10:04.480And until you experience it, I think it is just kind of words on the page.
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00:10:12.799Um, it really, I don't know if it's if it's that it's a service-oriented industry, but there's just a lot of really, really nice people in it.
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00:10:23.360Um, I know that I know that within CIFA in particular, but I don't think that's, I don't think it's it's unique to CIFA as a as a buying group, our our dealers and the manufacturers that we partner with.
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00:10:27.840Just across the industry, it's a lot of good people doing good for the right reasons.
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00:10:29.919And so it's been, it's been a lot of fun.
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00:10:39.840I don't want to make it sound like I was thinking that it wasn't gonna be that, but just given how talked up it was, um, I think I was surprised at how real those words actually turned out to be.
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00:10:44.080Yeah, I think we should do a PSA, you know, out there.
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00:10:47.440Hey, if you're gonna get in, be ready to be a lifer.
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00:10:58.559Yeah, you are it it I can I can see uh in a very short period of time why it is a place that people come and it's a and it's a destination industry for those folks.
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00:11:04.000They don't leave so what has been like being an outsider?
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00:11:07.519Um, has that been an advantage for you coming in?
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00:11:14.000I've as a as a learning professional, I've I've made a career about being an outsider.
00:11:14.159 -->
00:11:17.360I don't think I'd have to think back pretty hard.
00:11:17.519 -->
00:11:20.480I don't think I've ever touched the same industry twice.
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00:11:25.440So um I've been with an industry for some period of time and then moved and then moved.
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00:11:32.799So I've I've made a career out of coming into an industry and seeing what it has to offer.
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00:11:37.679The the good news for me, if this wasn't the case, I I would have failed a long, long time ago.
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00:11:40.960Um learning is learning across the board.
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00:11:42.480People are people in general.
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00:11:50.799Yes, they vary from what they do and how they do it, but um learning tends to be learning tends to behave the same way from industry to industry.
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00:11:55.440So I can take what I've done in a previous industry and apply it.
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00:11:58.720So I think it does, it does give me an advantage.
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00:12:01.440I do get to play the newbie card for at least some period of time.
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00:12:03.679You're telling me I can still play it, which is awesome.
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00:12:05.200Um, so I'm gonna keep doing it.
00:12:05.279 -->
00:12:11.759And if anybody asks, no, you're you've been in here over four years, you're no longer a newbie, I'm like, well, Nancy said I'm still a newbie, relatively speaking.
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00:12:13.759So I'm gonna keep doing it.
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00:12:21.360Um I'm allowed to, I think it gives me some leeway in asking kind of naive, ignorant questions.
00:12:21.519 -->
00:12:30.879Um, and by asking those, I'm I'm able to hopefully figure things out that I can use to then make the training and the learning that that I do better.
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00:12:45.200Just being a novice, it gives me a perspective that I feel like maybe resonates with a lot of the audience who I'm trying to train on things or build training for in comparison to a lot of the industry are because of the lifers, right?
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00:12:59.200There's a lot of experienced folks, but those experienced folks are different from in general the audience that I'm trying to reach, which is someone who's an up-and-comer learning a lot about the industry, not that we don't train the experts too, but it tends to be the more new folks who we, who we target.
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00:13:07.039And those folks can be very different than uh than the than the majority of the industry that tends to have a lot more experience than they do.
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00:13:17.440Yeah, and one thing we talked about um is that many people that are responsible for training right now in our industry um have decades of experience.
00:13:17.759 -->
00:13:19.039Well, that tends to be the case, right?
00:13:19.120 -->
00:13:26.159I mean, it tends to the that tends to be true because the people and in our industry, right, there's there's some there's turnover happening, right?
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00:13:30.240There's there are folks who are retiring, aging out, whatever you like to call it.
00:13:30.399 -->
00:13:38.320Hopefully I just didn't get censored for something, but it you have those folks, they tend to be your most natural choice for the folks.
00:13:38.480 -->
00:13:41.759Well, they are the people who need to be onboarding the new people, right?
00:13:41.919 -->
00:13:45.120They are the, they are the mentorship, they are bringing those people forward.
00:13:45.200 -->
00:13:52.399And yet, the more experienced you get, it becomes harder and harder to remember what it was like to be a new, to be new to the industry.
00:13:52.559 -->
00:13:57.440And so it becomes harder and harder to actually, in many cases, be an effective trainer.
00:13:57.759 -->
00:13:59.360And so it's ironic, right?
00:13:59.519 -->
00:14:10.480The people who know the most are sometimes the ones who are challenged the most to continue to be a good trainer and facilitator of learning, given how much they know.
00:14:10.639 -->
00:14:14.320It's it's it is a little bit, it's a little bit weird.
00:14:14.399 -->
00:14:17.840You'd want those people to be in the best position to train, and sometimes they aren't.
00:14:18.559 -->
00:14:28.399Yeah, I definitely experience that that myself, you know, coming into the industry and seeing so many new newbies coming in and training them.
00:14:28.720 -->
00:14:48.960And it is it is challenging when you've been in this industry for 20 years and you just throw out all these words, you know, of different, you know, just the product knowledge and also, you know, the sale, you know, the sales side and the end user side, buying groups, like there's so much to learn.
00:14:49.200 -->
00:15:03.600And it is hard to a break it down and then, you know, remember that they don't know, you know, all the the terms that you know are unique to the food service industry.
00:15:04.000 -->
00:15:09.840It's as as an expert, you it's a it's a natural thing.
00:15:10.000 -->
00:15:22.960I feel like experts do it because they want the newer folks to benefit from their expertise and they want the newer folks to be able to to I don't know, to learn it faster, to get better faster.
00:15:23.279 -->
00:15:42.159So the the desire is to convey all that they know to the to these new folks because the in the hopes that whatever process it was that the experts went through to become an expert, which took them 20 years, by the way, um, they want to take those 20 years and compress them, compress them down into like a three-day boot camp.
00:15:42.320 -->
00:15:45.120Like that's just not gonna, that's just not gonna happen.
00:15:45.360 -->
00:15:49.840Experts didn't get to where they are in some kind of compressed period.
00:15:49.919 -->
00:15:52.720They became experts over a period of time.
00:15:53.039 -->
00:15:59.840So when you're thinking about developing someone who's newer, remember it's gonna take it's gonna take them a while too.
00:15:59.919 -->
00:16:01.360There's no magic bullet.
00:16:01.519 -->
00:16:06.399So as a trainer, it's this mentality of wait, I gotta remember, I can't boil the ocean.
00:16:06.480 -->
00:16:08.000They're not gonna learn it all at once.
00:16:08.240 -->
00:16:13.120There, the the school, we all went to the school of hard knocks in terms of learning from our mistakes.
00:16:13.279 -->
00:16:15.519That's how the newer folks are gonna do it too.
00:16:15.759 -->
00:16:27.440And so as educators, as people who create learning for our, for the for the next generation, let's just remember it's it there's sometimes there just isn't any easier way.
00:16:27.600 -->
00:16:28.480And that's okay.
00:16:28.639 -->
00:16:32.639So we just want to facilitate that process as opposed to trying to short circuit it.
00:16:32.720 -->
00:16:43.360And by doing that, we overwhelm the new person with all of our with all of our knowledge and experience that they're it's gonna take them, it's gonna take them 20 years too to become the expert of 20 years.
00:16:43.440 -->
00:16:44.720There's no way around it.
00:16:45.039 -->
00:16:47.279Yeah, I'm I am super blessed.
00:16:47.360 -->
00:16:58.080I mean, in my career, because I did get ongoing product training, um, as, you know, because there's hundreds of thousands of products that, you know, you can sell.
00:16:58.240 -->
00:17:10.000And then, but also um, I think it is hard because I think some people bring people in for a week, you know, and do training, and then they just and then they're go.
00:17:10.559 -->
00:17:19.039And when when that happened to me in my first job, um, I had three weeks of training, and they said, You're gonna remember 30% of this.
00:17:19.279 -->
00:17:23.599And so where the hell, where the hell did they come up with that number?
00:17:23.759 -->
00:17:29.599Like, why'd they like well, which, which begs the question, you were there for that's 15 days, right?
00:17:29.759 -->
00:17:33.920So you're gonna remember a couple days worth of it?
00:17:34.079 -->
00:17:36.480Like you're gonna remember what were you doing the rest of the time?
00:17:36.640 -->
00:17:38.400And why were they and why were you doing it?
00:17:38.480 -->
00:17:40.319Like, I'm sorry, I interrupted your story.
00:17:40.400 -->
00:17:41.75930, you're gonna remember 30%.
00:17:42.079 -->
00:17:49.119I just like who came up with that number and what was the other 70% involved, and what what were you doing with all of that time?
00:17:49.279 -->
00:17:50.720Just begs the question.
00:17:51.119 -->
00:17:58.400Yeah, and and that's why it does need to be thought out, you know, when you're bringing somebody in.
00:17:58.720 -->
00:18:05.359So you mentioned that training um is is kind of like a hidden stepchild in organizations.
00:18:05.519 -->
00:18:06.799So what did you mean by that?
00:18:07.119 -->
00:18:15.920I think actually, I think you had you said that to me, that that sometimes training gets the gets the bad rap, or that training, or that training gets forgotten, right?
00:18:16.079 -->
00:18:18.720Even even look at the experience you just conveyed, right?
00:18:18.880 -->
00:18:22.960The expectation somehow we're gonna train this person for three weeks.
00:18:23.119 -->
00:18:25.759They're only gonna remember 30% of it for whatever reason.
00:18:25.920 -->
00:18:28.000And then we're gonna send them off into the wild.
00:18:28.160 -->
00:18:32.960And they're I I don't know what they're prepared to do or not do.
00:18:33.359 -->
00:18:38.480Um I in my experience, it's sometimes it's even the opposite.
00:18:38.640 -->
00:18:51.039But part of it is that there's this expectation that folks are going to somehow magically learn to do their job without thinking about how it is that they're that they're learning, right?
00:18:51.119 -->
00:18:53.039Experts became experts, after all.
00:18:53.119 -->
00:18:58.880Um, and that generation of experts tended, I I think a lot tended to do a lot on their own, right?
00:18:58.960 -->
00:19:02.000So they they were thrown out there and they and they figured it out.
00:19:02.079 -->
00:19:04.160It's it's not a bad way to do it.
00:19:04.319 -->
00:19:13.839It's just it's just a little can be a little bit haphazard and you don't always know what you're gonna get, and leaving people to their own devices can be a little bit risky.
00:19:14.000 -->
00:19:22.319Um but then when push comes to shove, you have these these people who are say in in sales who are doing really well.
00:19:22.480 -->
00:19:25.119And so you want them to keep selling more, right?
00:19:25.200 -->
00:19:29.279That's that's it's the bottom line that ultimately is important to the business.
00:19:29.759 -->
00:19:42.480And so then when the time comes to decide how should people be spending their time, the answer is selling, not learning how to sell, or it's doing their job, not learning how to do their job.
00:19:42.880 -->
00:19:55.200So I when when times are tight or when time is limited, for some reason, but it's pretty obvious, training tends to be one of the first things that we short that we shortcut.
00:19:55.519 -->
00:20:01.119Like, well, we need them doing more that impacts the business, um, at least impacts the business directly.
00:20:01.279 -->
00:20:08.400And so um training, amongst other things that feel like, well, we can put that aside for a while.
00:20:08.640 -->
00:20:12.559We did it, we we somehow survived without it, or or so we think.
00:20:12.960 -->
00:20:14.880So let's not do that.
00:20:15.039 -->
00:20:22.319And so that's the first thing that we think of when what can we get away with when we need to, when we when we need to figure out how to streamline something.
00:20:22.559 -->
00:20:24.640For some reason, training gets the short shift.
00:20:24.880 -->
00:20:32.559Before we get back to the episode, if you're looking for new ideas or products for your next project, check out the W3 shop.
00:20:32.960 -->
00:20:37.680Think of it as your online shopping experience for everything but the food.
00:20:37.920 -->
00:20:44.480Browse thousands of products from the manufacturers we represent at W3Salesonline.com.
00:20:44.799 -->
00:20:46.240Now, back to the show.
00:20:46.480 -->
00:20:49.759Yeah, and I think that there's also so many shortcuts.
00:20:49.920 -->
00:20:55.200I mean, where they don't have to learn what they're doing and the meaning behind it.
00:20:55.440 -->
00:20:57.440For example, like auto quotes.
00:20:58.160 -->
00:21:03.039People would say, Hey Nancy, train, train, train this rep on auto quotes.
00:21:03.279 -->
00:21:10.400And I I said, Well, do they even understand like the pricing model and how it works?
00:21:10.880 -->
00:21:13.200And they're like, no, no, no, it's fine.
00:21:13.279 -->
00:21:15.759Just put them on auto quotes and train them.
00:21:15.920 -->
00:21:22.880And so get them, get them from point A to point B, where point B is making money for the business.
00:21:22.960 -->
00:21:31.359Get them there as fast as you can, um, all other things aside, just just just get them there, get them to a point where they can use the tool.
00:21:31.519 -->
00:21:34.079And that feels like such a weird like, what does that even mean?
00:21:34.160 -->
00:21:34.960Like, what does it mean?
00:21:35.039 -->
00:21:36.559Like, teach them how to use auto quotes.
00:21:36.720 -->
00:21:38.400Well, what what do you mean by that?
00:21:38.559 -->
00:21:43.680And and what does it that's that's where the where the problem begins.
00:21:43.839 -->
00:21:45.759Someone says they they need to be able to use auto quotes.
00:21:45.839 -->
00:21:51.519Well, can we break that down a little bit in terms of well, what does expert performance in auto quotes look like?
00:21:51.680 -->
00:21:54.880What does someone who's been using auto quotes for a week, what does that look like?
00:21:54.960 -->
00:21:59.839And how do they how do they get from that to some improved ability to use auto quotes?
00:22:00.240 -->
00:22:07.119If we actually had a conversation about that, then even if we don't like build them training, listen, I'm a learning guy.
00:22:07.200 -->
00:22:10.000It doesn't mean that everything that everything needs to be trained.
00:22:10.160 -->
00:22:14.319There's a lot of stuff you can learn on the job and figure it out along the way.
00:22:14.559 -->
00:22:30.400So, but at least we could come up with some activities they could be doing in auto quotes where they could then, in some kind of systematic way, gain that experience in auto quotes so that they advance from being a one-week user of auto quotes to a one decade user of auto quotes.
00:22:30.480 -->
00:22:41.440And they've built up this knowledge in some in some way where we're confident that they actually now can do, they can do auto quotes better than they could before, whatever that means.
00:22:41.759 -->
00:22:56.720I even take it back even a step for, I mean, beh well, before, and really just sit down and explain discount structure and you know how people get their discounts and and you know, you get into buying groups.
00:22:56.799 -->
00:23:01.680So there's a there's lots of different facets like to the reasoning behind it.
00:23:01.920 -->
00:23:12.559And if you just get in there and click, click, click, I mean, without understanding what you're doing, I think that when you first started the industry, I I think it would be confusing.
00:23:12.880 -->
00:23:20.400It it works, it actually listen, you don't need to understand physics to be able to drive a car.
00:23:21.039 -->
00:23:24.559We we we I understand when you hit the brake, things happen.
00:23:24.720 -->
00:23:29.200And it's there's some complicated reasoning as to how that stops the car.
00:23:29.440 -->
00:23:36.880We all have functioned perfectly fine in our worlds without understanding the deep science behind how all of that works.
00:23:37.119 -->
00:23:49.839So I'm sure that there's stuff in auto quotes that listen, you don't need some complicated theory about how the market, how the food service market works to be able to function in auto quotes.
00:23:50.000 -->
00:23:52.640Um, so there's absolutely a benefit.
00:23:52.720 -->
00:23:54.480There's there's the practical side of it.
00:23:54.640 -->
00:23:58.400And then there are some things that that it works until it doesn't.
00:23:58.640 -->
00:24:02.400So you're actually clicking along because you know where to click and how to click.
00:24:02.640 -->
00:24:10.960But then something either goes wrong, or there's something a little different, or there's an exception, or there's something you want to get it to do that it doesn't quite do the way you want it to.
00:24:11.119 -->
00:24:17.759Now, all of a sudden, now you need a little bit deeper understanding of how things work in order to get it to behave that the way the way you want it to.
00:24:17.920 -->
00:24:22.880So listen, I'll I'll be the first to stand up, even though I'm a learning professional.
00:24:23.200 -->
00:24:25.119Training is not always the answer.
00:24:25.359 -->
00:24:29.279Deep philosophical conceptual understanding is not always the answer.
00:24:29.440 -->
00:24:30.799You don't always need it.
00:24:30.960 -->
00:24:32.640You just sometimes do.
00:24:32.880 -->
00:24:36.319And usually the beginners don't need all that in-depth knowledge.
00:24:36.400 -->
00:24:38.400They need bits and pieces of it to function.
00:24:38.640 -->
00:24:42.720This goes right back to the expert saying, well, I've built up all this knowledge over 20 years.
00:24:42.799 -->
00:24:43.839I know what I'm gonna do.
00:24:44.000 -->
00:24:46.160I'm going to lay it all out for a beginner.
00:24:46.400 -->
00:24:48.079Oh Lord, please don't do that, right?
00:24:48.160 -->
00:24:51.119You're gonna over you gained it over 20 years.
00:24:51.279 -->
00:24:55.599Why do you think that the new person can gain it faster than you did?
00:24:55.759 -->
00:24:59.200Back off, let them learn it kind of naturally, step by step.
00:24:59.359 -->
00:25:03.519They'll build it up over time, and that'll that'll be a better experience for them.
00:25:03.599 -->
00:25:04.799It'll be more rewarding for them.
00:25:04.880 -->
00:25:08.880They'll feel like they're actually progressing and and gaining ground.
00:25:09.119 -->
00:25:15.440So it's yeah, a little, a little bit of theory can go a long way, but it's not always, it's not always about that.
00:25:15.519 -->
00:25:19.279And there isn't always a reason to lay it out like from the ground up.
00:25:19.440 -->
00:25:20.880Let them it it's a tool.
00:25:20.960 -->
00:25:29.519Yeah, you click in it, learn to click, and we'll build up some of the more complicated stuff as you actually understand what the tool does and how the industry works.
00:25:29.920 -->
00:25:30.240Right.
00:25:30.400 -->
00:25:35.759So maybe just something a little more basic like list price, net price, discount.
00:25:36.720 -->
00:25:40.079Something that they have ex, you know, something that they have.
00:25:40.559 -->
00:25:43.039Listen, we've all we've all eaten at restaurants.
00:25:43.119 -->
00:25:47.759That doesn't make us experts in the food service industry, but we all have touched it in some way, shape, or form.
00:25:48.000 -->
00:25:52.000So start with something they've seen and something that they can relate to.
00:25:52.160 -->
00:26:01.759And then maybe that'll help them kind of kind of hook on to what exactly AQ is trying to do and then how to do stuff in AQ to actually function in their job.
00:26:02.160 -->
00:26:03.920No, this is great advice.
00:26:04.000 -->
00:26:07.920And I'm glad we kind of got to go through an auto quotes exercise on training.
00:26:08.079 -->
00:26:08.400Sorry.
00:26:09.200 -->
00:26:14.400No, no, it's yeah, but hey, as I said, the only way to we we as an industry talk about auto quotes.
00:26:14.480 -->
00:26:17.200So if we want to talk about learning, let's talk about learning auto quotes.
00:26:17.279 -->
00:26:19.039Let's talk about learning something concrete.
00:26:19.119 -->
00:26:29.839Um, and then that'll hopefully hopefully hopefully make it a little bit more relatable than learning some, you know, just learning in general or training in general, learning in the abstract or or trying to teach actuaries high-end statistics.
00:26:29.920 -->
00:26:32.400That's not going to resonate with this group, that's for sure.
00:26:33.119 -->
00:26:35.200So let's split the conversation.
00:26:35.440 -->
00:26:41.759So in instead of us talking about training and the trainer, what makes somebody a great learner?
00:26:42.319 -->
00:26:44.000Well, that's interesting.
00:26:44.400 -->
00:26:45.039Well, right.
00:26:45.200 -->
00:26:48.240So let's let's continue along the AQ journey, right?
00:26:48.319 -->
00:26:56.079So we were talking about what can what are some things that the that the coach can do to guide somebody to become a better user of AQ.
00:26:56.559 -->
00:27:15.759No matter what, how do I say, no matter what the trainer or the coach or the facilitator, the mentor, whatever they do, in the end, it comes down to what the user, what their person, their their mend, if they're the mentor, I guess the mentee, whatever their person is absorbing from that and what they're taking away from it.
00:27:15.920 -->
00:27:16.160Right.
00:27:16.240 -->
00:27:21.440There's I, I, no matter what we do as a trainer, we can't learn it for the learner.
00:27:21.759 -->
00:27:23.359It's ultimately on them.
00:27:23.599 -->
00:27:28.559So what can they do no matter what they're being hit with, right?
00:27:28.640 -->
00:27:32.640We're we live in a world that is full of information, full of learning opportunities.
00:27:32.880 -->
00:27:35.279How do how do good learners do it?
00:27:35.599 -->
00:27:38.160Um that's a really good question.
00:27:38.319 -->
00:27:53.119I there's one thing that I think good learners do that separates them, which is that they're always thinking about uh what they're hearing, what they're seeing, what they're doing, and uh how they can apply it in the future, right?
00:27:53.200 -->
00:27:59.759So they hear something, they don't take it for granted, like it's a piece of information, like, okay, that's all well and good, but how does this help me do my job?
00:27:59.920 -->
00:28:02.720Like, how do how does that, where does that fit into my world?
00:28:02.880 -->
00:28:04.319Like when would I use that?
00:28:04.480 -->
00:28:11.119And by doing that, they're actually they're going through a process that is helping them remember it for the future.
00:28:11.279 -->
00:28:19.599How many times have, I don't know if you've said it, Nancy, or or you hear other people say it, you'll tell somebody how to do something and they'll say, that makes sense.
00:28:20.799 -->
00:28:24.000And to me, that is a death knell.
00:28:24.400 -->
00:28:25.279Like that makes sense.
00:28:25.359 -->
00:28:26.400Well, of course it makes sense.
00:28:26.559 -->
00:28:29.359I'm the expert and I explained it in a way that should make sense.
00:28:29.519 -->
00:28:30.640Of course it makes sense.
00:28:30.799 -->
00:28:32.160I don't care if it makes sense.
00:28:32.640 -->
00:28:39.839So a week from now, when I'm not sitting here, are you going to be able to actually do it without me guiding you?
00:28:40.000 -->
00:28:41.200That's the question.
00:28:41.359 -->
00:28:50.160And a good learner has taken what you said and they're trying to rehearse it, they're trying to practice it, they'll take it and they'll try steps on their own, they'll come back and ask you questions.
00:28:50.400 -->
00:28:52.880It doesn't it always, well, of course it makes sense.
00:28:52.960 -->
00:28:54.400It always feels like it makes sense.
00:28:54.559 -->
00:28:56.000And then you go try to do it on your own.
00:28:56.079 -->
00:28:58.079You're like, wait a second, what did they say?
00:28:58.319 -->
00:29:00.480How did they, what do I do on this screen?
00:29:00.640 -->
00:29:01.599How do they do that?
00:29:01.839 -->
00:29:05.599I don't know if we've, I don't know if the if you or our listeners have gone through that experience.
00:29:05.680 -->
00:29:06.079I do.
00:29:06.240 -->
00:29:09.599Like if somebody tells me how to do it, I'm like, yep, yep, got it, got it.
00:29:09.759 -->
00:29:13.680And then a day later, I'm like, uh-oh, I don't got it.
00:29:13.839 -->
00:29:16.720Like I it it seemed like it made sense.
00:29:16.960 -->
00:29:19.119And that's kind of a natural reaction.
00:29:19.200 -->
00:29:22.400Like, yeah, it all it all makes sense when the experts said it.
00:29:22.559 -->
00:29:23.599Um, fantastic.
00:29:23.759 -->
00:29:25.200That doesn't do us any good though.
00:29:25.440 -->
00:29:39.039So the good learners, I think, take it one step further and they're always trying to sort of apply it and think about what it means to them to make it personal, no matter what the trainer was doing.
00:29:39.200 -->
00:29:51.279So, you know, good trainer, bad trainer, some a trainer who's just who's dumping it onto them, good learners will they'll take more notes, they'll they'll make sense of it, and they'll do that in with with intent, right?
00:29:51.359 -->
00:30:00.000They'll they'll practice with intent, they'll think about it with intent so that they can then use that knowledge later, independently from whatever it was that the trainer was doing.
00:30:00.319 -->
00:30:08.319Yeah, I mean, it's just like watching a YouTube video on how to do something, and then you try to do it even for me a minute later, I'm like, what?
00:30:08.559 -->
00:30:08.799What?
00:30:10.240 -->
00:30:22.240I mean, it makes sense when I'm watching it, but when I try to do it and um yeah, yeah, it's it's it it's it's unfortunate because it it's not like you're it did make sense.
00:30:22.319 -->
00:30:23.839It's not like you're lying to yourself.
00:30:24.000 -->
00:30:24.880Like, did it make sense?
00:30:24.960 -->
00:30:26.720Yep, made perfect sense.
00:30:27.039 -->
00:30:29.599That doesn't mean you can actually then go do it yourself.
00:30:29.680 -->
00:30:31.839It just means it looks like it made sense.
00:30:31.920 -->
00:30:43.200And it really is a natural reaction to say, yep, makes sense, and then only to discover sometimes even minutes later, um, that made less sense than I thought it, that it felt like it did.
00:30:43.279 -->
00:30:46.880It's just this, it's this natural, it yeah, it's got this kind of coherence to it.
00:30:46.960 -->
00:30:47.839Yeah, that makes sense.
00:30:48.000 -->
00:30:49.519I could do, no, you can't.
00:30:49.680 -->
00:30:50.720Turns out you can't.
00:30:50.880 -->
00:30:59.200Um, and so even just recognizing that, like things that sound like they make sense, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna remember them later or that I can do them later.
00:30:59.359 -->
00:31:01.599So, what do I do to actually help myself?
00:31:01.759 -->
00:31:08.960Even just recognizing that's a step forward, like, okay, just because it sounded good doesn't mean I'm gonna be able to actually apply it later.
00:31:09.119 -->
00:31:12.880Let me actually think a little bit harder about this so that I can apply it later.
00:31:13.200 -->
00:31:14.480Yeah, active listening.
00:31:14.640 -->
00:31:24.400And I think it's um, I think this is really good for people here that this is a shared responsibility between trainer and trainee.
00:31:24.640 -->
00:31:26.480So um there's no way around it.
00:31:26.559 -->
00:31:27.440There's no way around it.
00:31:27.759 -->
00:31:28.079Right.
00:31:28.240 -->
00:31:28.880I love that.
00:31:29.039 -->
00:31:33.200And just being able to, you know, for the learner to say, okay, stop.
00:31:33.359 -->
00:31:36.880So in my situation, you know, this happened to me.
00:31:36.960 -->
00:31:38.400So this is what I would do.
00:31:38.480 -->
00:31:55.440And for them to start thinking in terms of that, is the would that be the yeah, like it's it's something it you're you're whether it's AQ or you have a you have a product trainer who's pro who's listing out some features and benefits of a particular of a particular product.
00:31:55.680 -->
00:31:59.039Okay, how do those features and benefits help my end user?
00:31:59.200 -->
00:32:02.480How I how would I as a dealer bring that up in a conversation?
00:32:02.720 -->
00:32:08.960What what targets do I have right now where that feature would solve their problem?
00:32:09.519 -->
00:32:12.960And now you're starting, now you're actually starting to build up aha.
00:32:13.440 -->
00:32:25.039Note, next time I talk to this, this particular end user or this particular target, make sure I ask them this or make sure I bring this up, or make sure I listen for this because I have something that I think could help.
00:32:25.200 -->
00:32:27.680Heck, don't depend on your memory.
00:32:27.920 -->
00:32:37.359Uh whatever your conversation file is, and the next time you have a the thing you're gonna look at, the next time you have a conversation with that target, it you put it there so you'll so you remember it.
00:32:37.440 -->
00:32:40.880So you remember to bring it up because we've got a thousand things going on.
00:32:41.039 -->
00:32:42.799You think you're gonna remember it, and then you don't.
00:32:43.519 -->
00:32:45.519Put it somewhere where you where it can remind yourself.
00:32:45.680 -->
00:32:47.279Yeah, you said active listening.
00:32:47.359 -->
00:32:59.920It's it's it's that, it's listening and then actively processing, it's actively thinking ahead so that you you reinforce what it is that you've heard in your own head, whether or not the trainer is helping you do that.
00:33:00.160 -->
00:33:00.480Right.
00:33:00.640 -->
00:33:12.079I mean, because when the first time you hear it, it's gonna mean something totally different once you go practice it and get out in the field and then come back and then hear it again.
00:33:12.319 -->
00:33:17.279I love it when you get training, like initial training, like here's the overview.
00:33:17.440 -->
00:33:22.880I'm not gonna get too in, you know, in the weeds here, and then now go practice it.
00:33:23.119 -->
00:33:25.519And then that's how we do it at W30.
00:33:25.599 -->
00:33:36.880And then we bring them back, and then we we give them more and more product training on that specific um item or concept or selling concept or whatever we're doing.
00:33:37.039 -->
00:33:44.880So and and of, and of course, and that's that's of course really hard to do as the expert because you know you you know a lot about that product.
00:33:44.960 -->
00:33:50.799So everything, everything in your instinct is wants to keep talking, wants to keep laying stuff on them.
00:33:51.359 -->
00:33:53.359That is gonna be so overwhelming, right?
00:33:53.440 -->
00:34:01.119So bit you know, little, a little bit of a a little bit of a drip feed can and then come back, you come back, you ask them, okay, what do you remember from last time?
00:34:01.200 -->
00:34:02.640Have have they even used it?
00:34:02.880 -->
00:34:04.079Because we all know, right?
00:34:04.160 -->
00:34:12.159If they're if I tell you something once, or you, even if we have a conversation, the odds of you remembering it, if you didn't apply it since then, those those go down pretty fast.
00:34:12.320 -->
00:34:16.400And so, okay, have you even have you thought about this since the last time we chatted?
00:34:16.639 -->
00:34:26.000That that goes a long way to getting them to like dredge up what it is that that conversation was the first time and then had then have another conversation and another conversation and another conversation.
00:34:26.079 -->
00:34:28.239And it just and it builds over time.
00:34:28.480 -->
00:34:31.039It's not it, there is no magic bullet here.
00:34:31.119 -->
00:34:38.880It's just gonna, it takes people time to learn, just like it took you time to learn, but how quickly we forget how long that took.
00:34:39.440 -->
00:34:42.719Yeah, I mean, these are really great tips.
00:34:42.960 -->
00:35:01.119So actually, I have like all these other questions I want and parts of our conversation I wanted to get into, but um, so I'd love to table the conversation and come back in another podcast to talk about um how to create a learning culture within your organization.
00:35:01.280 -->
00:35:02.159Would you be down for that?
00:35:02.880 -->
00:35:06.000I'm wait, put me on the put put me on the spot here.
00:35:06.079 -->
00:35:09.360Like, so in front of the audience, would you be willing to come back to talk about more?
00:35:09.519 -->
00:35:22.639Um, I'm I'm guessing you could probably convince me to come back and have a follow-up conversation, uh, given if the key, I mean I I was gonna say, do we do can people comment on these things?
00:35:22.880 -->
00:35:27.199Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna put it on the audience to say, you know, did we think that was a worthwhile conversation?
00:35:27.360 -->
00:35:28.639Should we have, should he come back?
00:35:28.719 -->
00:35:31.519Or is like, okay, that was that was 45 minutes of my life.
00:35:31.599 -->
00:35:32.800I'm never gonna get back.
00:35:32.960 -->
00:35:37.280Um, what please, please, for the love of God, let's not continue that conversation with him.
00:35:37.440 -->
00:35:40.079So I'm gonna leave it to the audience to decide.
00:35:40.480 -->
00:35:42.239I mean, I'm an active learner here.
00:35:42.400 -->
00:35:43.760I mean, why?
00:35:44.000 -->
00:35:45.199So fair.
00:35:46.079 -->
00:35:46.480There you go.
00:35:46.960 -->
00:35:47.679This is great.
00:35:47.840 -->
00:35:50.800So I can't let you go before I get a confession.
00:35:50.960 -->
00:35:53.760So what is your confession for us today?
00:35:54.239 -->
00:36:00.960Well, you know, I have a there's there's a lot of funny stories and a lot of weird experiences I've been through.
00:36:01.039 -->
00:36:12.159But but I, you know, here's I I think the funny one, and then maybe we if we do this again, maybe we can do some of the, you know, the random stuff about like where where my dog was bred and things like that.
00:36:12.239 -->
00:36:13.679Um there's the cliffhanger.
00:36:13.920 -->
00:36:14.880There's the cliffhanger.
00:36:15.039 -->
00:36:20.639But but we've been talking about active, you know, active learners and people who engage in training.
00:36:20.800 -->
00:36:22.239Um, confession.
00:36:22.559 -->
00:36:25.679I am a horrible participant at training.
00:36:25.920 -->
00:36:26.800Horrible.
00:36:27.679 -->
00:36:29.280I know, shocker, right?
00:36:29.440 -->
00:36:32.800Um well, I have this notorious problem.
00:36:32.960 -->
00:36:34.639Um, I'm a learning professional.
00:36:34.800 -->
00:36:43.599And so when I go to a training, when I am an attendee at a training, I I don't I don't make it a nightmare for the for the trainer.
00:36:43.840 -->
00:36:47.119I empathize with the person who's trying to keep the cats herded.
00:36:47.280 -->
00:36:49.119So I don't make it hard on them.
00:36:49.280 -->
00:37:05.599But in terms of all this, all of these skills that that good learners have, I have a really hard time focusing at on at training events and learning because I can't take off my professional hat of being someone who designs and develops and delivers training.
00:37:05.760 -->
00:37:09.199So instead of actually focusing on the content, what am I doing?
00:37:09.440 -->
00:37:12.000I'm sitting there thinking about, well, I wouldn't have done it that way.
00:37:12.079 -->
00:37:13.039I wouldn't have kicked it off that way.
00:37:13.119 -->
00:37:14.400I would have put in this activity here.
00:37:14.480 -->
00:37:17.199I would have, I would have done a break at a different time.
00:37:17.360 -->
00:37:19.199I would have, no, don't ask that question.
00:37:19.280 -->
00:37:19.920I would have followed.
00:37:20.159 -->
00:37:26.800So I'm sitting there re-architecting what the training is as opposed to actually engaging in the training.
00:37:26.880 -->
00:37:29.280I've I've gotten better over time.
00:37:29.519 -->
00:37:33.599Um, I have come up with various tricks to prevent myself from going there.
00:37:33.840 -->
00:37:39.280But historically, yeah, I'm sitting here preaching about being a more active learner.
00:37:39.440 -->
00:37:41.440And if you ask me, so are you an active learner?
00:37:41.519 -->
00:37:42.639I'm like, no, I'm not.
00:37:42.800 -->
00:37:47.599So I think I I have worked, I have work to do for myself too on this front.
00:37:47.760 -->
00:38:03.039But I I admit it openly, it's given given the field I operate in, it is a massive problem for me when I am a learner and I have to find different ways to make sure that I'm doing what I need to do to actually learn, as opposed to do all the other things that my brain wants to do while I'm in a training.
00:38:03.440 -->
00:38:10.960Well, so if anybody um sees or hears um Michael in the crowd, no, he is judging you.
00:38:13.679 -->
00:38:14.000Okay.
00:38:14.400 -->
00:38:23.440I think I didn't say it that way, but I guess in I guess to be fair, that I yeah, I think you I'm I wouldn't, you know, don't take it personally.
00:38:23.599 -->
00:38:28.159It's just when I'm yeah, yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm judgy in that regard.
00:38:28.239 -->
00:38:36.639It's no, I'm told I think it's to all those foods, to all those food service people in the audience, which I think is probably everybody, right?
00:38:36.880 -->
00:38:45.440Um, yeah, how often I understand we eat at restaurants and we enjoy them, but what's the first thing that food service folks do when they sit down at a restaurant, right?
00:38:45.599 -->
00:38:47.280They flip over the plate.
00:38:47.440 -->
00:38:50.719Um, and now I have not yet guilty as charged, right?
00:38:50.800 -->
00:38:55.360I haven't done that yet, but I do peek over, you know, when there's front of house operations.
00:38:55.519 -->
00:38:57.920I'm peeking over looking at the cook line.
00:38:58.000 -->
00:38:59.920I'm I'm already I'm already doing it.
00:39:00.159 -->
00:39:03.039So let's talking about being judgy here.
00:39:03.199 -->
00:39:06.559I mean, I'm it's food service folks enjoying a meal.
00:39:06.719 -->
00:39:09.119That's kind of like my problem in a training.
00:39:09.199 -->
00:39:10.960So I hope, I hope you can empathize.
00:39:11.039 -->
00:39:13.280But yes, feel free to give me crap about it.
00:39:13.599 -->
00:39:17.679No, I'm I was just playing, and I think it's good to be self-aware.
00:39:17.760 -->
00:39:27.679And I'm glad that it's really cool to have people out there that that um are so passionate about training and learning and can be able to break this down.
00:39:27.840 -->
00:39:41.519And I think um, so even if you're outside food service and your organization is struggling, you guys could reach out, you know, maybe to Michael on the side um and and um contract his services potentially.
00:39:41.760 -->
00:39:55.440But um I think this has been a really um good conversation and one that um our industry really needs because there's a lot of people that have been in the street for a long time, not as many newer people coming in.
00:39:55.599 -->
00:40:03.760So um, and we as people are aging out, like we talked about, we need good training and we need we need to understand this.
00:40:03.840 -->
00:40:10.239Um so I'm excited, hopefully, potentially, if Michael will have us um for the next episode.
00:40:10.320 -->
00:40:27.199So well, listen, um CIFA as a buying group, when I when I came into CIFA from outside the industry, my my job, CIFA is, I think we'll have to I'll have to ask the audience, but um part of CIFA's reputation is what it does for its dealers in the in the training and marketing space.
00:40:27.440 -->
00:40:35.519And so um, when I came in, my job one was to just not damage the brand that CIFA had literally spent decades building when it came to training.
00:40:35.679 -->
00:40:43.199Um so yeah, the fact that I have a passion for training and I'm and I'm with a buying group that that has that same passion, um, not surprising at all.
00:40:43.440 -->
00:40:58.079Um so you know, if you know if CIFA hears this and I and hopefully I haven't you know stepped on too many toes along the way and or said something that that misrepresents the brand, um, yeah, we'll have to we'll we'll we'll have to see if that follow up follow-up conversation happens to be continued.
00:40:58.400 -->
00:40:58.719Okay.
00:40:59.119 -->
00:41:01.199Well, thank you so much, Michael.
00:41:01.440 -->
00:41:03.280It's been it's you've been so fun.
00:41:03.360 -->
00:41:05.039I really enjoy getting to know you.
00:41:05.119 -->
00:41:06.159So same.
00:41:06.239 -->
00:41:13.039It's been it's been a blast, and and we'll see if there's a we'll see if there's a sequel that hopefully doesn't uh hopefully doesn't disappoint.
00:41:13.360 -->
00:41:13.760All right.
00:41:13.840 -->
00:41:14.719Thanks, Michael.
00:41:14.960 -->
00:41:15.679Thank you, Nancy.
00:41:15.920 -->
00:41:20.320For more inspiration, follow our social media at W3Cells.
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