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This file was generated by Descript
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: All right.
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We are back in the
Compass Point Institute.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
How's your day going?
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: It's good.
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You know this, the comings and goings
of, uh, working professional, I suppose.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Indeed.
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Well, great to be back.
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I'm James Kennedy, nurse practitioner
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Jon Murphy,
psychiatric nurse practitioner.
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Good to be here.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: So
today we're diving to something that
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might hit a little bit uncomfortably
close to home, especially with
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individuals that have ADHD.
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We're talking about that dance
of hyper focus and perfectionism,
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but not the humble brag kind that
you mentioned in job interviews.
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So I'm talking about that type that
steals your life just one excellent
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hour at a time, whether it's the
hyperfocus holes that you find yourself
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in or just the downstream effects.
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That's kind of what
we're focusing on today.
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I think also looking back for some
individuals perfectionist tendencies
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might have been a survival strategy
that helped them in earlier years,
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age 8, 10, 12, to kind of help sit
there and, reduce impairment related
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to executive functioning challenges.
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But is now, you know, at the age
of 40, holding you hostage and just
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joining you one hour at a time.
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Any kind of thoughts on that Jon?
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or.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well,
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I mean, I think that speaks true to
me and my experience, I know we were
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talking recently about reinforcement
and I found in my journey of life
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that I was reinforced into patterns.
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I think, What's the drive?
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You know, what's fueling the drive?
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And that's a really mysterious thing,
especially again, I think you say 40.
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Well, for me I was probably like
38, so not much closer and I think
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there's only reasonably so much
time that we have as an adult.
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You know, I've talked to people in
their twenties and I'm always happy
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for them, but it's gonna be hard to see
outside yourself through the passage
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of time to really look back and say,
Hey, wait a minute, what was going on?
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But with perfectionism.
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The interesting thing from my point of
view is, we talked about hyperfocus.
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I was ironically editing the videos
that are on the YouTube channel
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now and I was in hyperfocus.
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I was editing videos about hyperfocus
while in hyperfocus, imagine my surprise.
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And I realized in that it's
like what is driving us?
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And at the end of the day, I was
like wanting something at the
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end of it all, but that something
actually was in spite of the world.
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And really that's how my
creativity and perfectionism works.
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It's, it's like this personal sense
of satisfaction that I will actually
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sabotage myself in order to get it.
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But you're talking about something
a little different, right?
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
mean, I think you raised a good point.
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I think everybody's experiences
are unique, and it just kind
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of manifests in different ways.
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We know the data supports that
about 30% or so people with ADHD
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develop OCD, like behaviors.
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To clarify, not OCD, but behaviors
that are, in that sort of more
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compulsive obsessive bucket.
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There are a fair amount of individuals
that have OCPD and ADHD and
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those are the more extreme cases.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: studies
have shown us that if you have ADHD,
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your first degree relatives are
significantly more likely to have OCD.
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There's definitely a dance between
the two of them, there's a shared
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genetic architecture that I think
we can all sit there and agree upon.
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You know, dopamine regulation
and dysregulation that really
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kind of just impart this dance
that we're talking about.
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For individuals that really have
more of those challenges with those
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OCPD like behaviors, that's when that
perfectionism, I think what you're
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kind of talking about gets to a point
where it is really pathological.
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We've talked about the trap of
hyperfocus before and kind of
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the resulting cycles about that.
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You know, just picture like a child,
like eight, 10 years old or so, losing
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everything, forgetting everything.
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They can't sit still but then they kind
of discovered like, hey, if I'm looking
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at my backpack 47 different times, if I'm
creating these lists and these structures,
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oh wait, teacher's not yelling at me.
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My parents aren't getting mad at me.
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Oh, I'm, I'm doing a little bit better
in school and for some people I think
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that drives those perfectionistic
tendencies even further because
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they're a way to mitigate those ADHD
related executive functioning symptoms.
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You know, it's, it's not necessarily
a better situation, it's just
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swapping one issue out for another.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: For those
individuals and for a lot of other, you
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know, maybe not as extreme cases, that
perfectionism becomes a survival strategy.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
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Yeah.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: thing to
kind of look at really holistically here.
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In some ways those individuals are
able to do better in school and I mean,
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academically grade wise, not necessarily
holistically big picture because that's
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not a sustainable way to live your life.
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But on paper, you know, you
might see high academic success.
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Maybe that's also fueled by pressure from
parents or other things that are going on.
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But when you kind of see that play out
for, you know, another decade, another
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decade that perfectionism become a prison.
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You're just trapped into that
cycle and it's a really challenging
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and dark place to be thrust in.
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Your perfectionism isn't
necessarily character strength,
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it's your ADHD brain's Armor.
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The biggest issue is the amount of time
that they spend on these different tasks.
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And if you are that type of person that
has those perfectionist tendencies.
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You're spending 10 hours on different
things that just could have taken an hour
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or so and had you have just spent an hour
and maybe got 85, 90% as good of output,
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you'd have all that extra time to spend,
on wellness, on family, on other things.
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Especially when, individuals get older,
there are large gaps in their life
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because they're still dedicating all
these time to tasks that should honestly
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take way, way less than they are,
and then you've got family stressors,
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you've got other things coming in it,
and they just don't have the ability to
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kind of switch to that and, you know,
devote and allocate appropriate time.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: You know, with
ADHD, when you're treating it as well
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as living with it, whatever, it's
like your brain's now reliably online.
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So what does that mean?
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That's the interesting
thing, person to person.
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Okay, now what, what have we been through?
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What are we going through?
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You know, and all these patterns, when we
think of survival, we're thinking about
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a period of time in our lives where if we
did something that affected us externally,
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meaning it made us able to be reliant
upon people or situations or groups,
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if we were able to be dependent because
of something that we did, that's a win.
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So we're gonna do what works and at a
period of time in our lives, childhood
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or adolescence anytime before adulthood.
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That's the win, but it's jarring when
we go from doing things one way to
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now we're an adult and we're really
gonna do best to say what am I feeling?
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How do I go about in the world
based upon what we're experiencing?
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If we're reacting and responding to outta
control situations and circumstances,
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how are we gonna know what we're feeling?
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So this is the stuff we have to
work through and, ADHD treatment
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it can be one of the many things
that breaks down the walls.
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But nonetheless, um, it's finding
a different operating system we've
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outgrown the old way of doing things.
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So how do we find the
new way of doing things?
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And you know, just to be real,
James being real brave right now.
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You're working through it.
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I can tell, and I know this 'cause
I've worked through too, of his mental
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health clinicians listening to this.
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I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day.
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Right now there's a lot of people that
are struggling, but there's a lot of
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people that want to help, like James
and I and other therapists out there,
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if you're listening, other clinicians.
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Sometimes people can really forget that
we're people too, you know, and we have
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our own sort of stuff to work through.
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But the good news is if we are able
to do that, we're gonna be so much
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better at helping other people.
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'cause we've walked the walk.
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Am I right?
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
I completely agree on that.
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I think that's an important part
to really look at the day-to-day
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with these patients, let's
break down what's happening.
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You're doing a patient,
note, How long did it take?
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Oh, it took you two hours.
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Should it take you 20 minutes?
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Oh, breakfast preparation for your family.
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It had to be something elaborate.
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Oh, you spent 45 minutes on that.
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Could have probably done it in 10.
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An email response it's just
a low level, simple email,
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you spend 30 minutes
on it instead of five.
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And looking at that, kind of extrapolating
that over the week, it's like, wow, that's
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nine hours over the course of a week.
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Is that how you want your
children to remember you?
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Not to say that you don't
wanna strive for excellence.
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I think it is good to sit
there and, strive for it.
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But what is driving that process for it?
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I think trying to take a step back
and coldly looking at it, okay, so
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excellence should kind of energize you.
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Celebrate B+ plus work,
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fear is gonna demand an A+ or death.
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There is no middle ground.
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There isn't good enough is good enough.
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They're not able to sit there and get
to that point where, where they can
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reconcile that, if that makes any sense.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I've realized
myself we're gonna, my best vantage point,
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learning to deal with my toxic mother,
working toward healing trauma that I've
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been through and working with my patients.
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This is coming after several years of
feeling like my life was changed because
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I had gotten my ADHD on track and I
thought, I'm gonna change the world.
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And it turns out no one really cared.
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It was boring.
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And I realized, you know,
we're much more than that.
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It's what's the resistance?
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And I realized these
tools that I developed.
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They had suited me in my particular
sort of tendencies and then working
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with patients, getting over the trauma
realizing that my mother has narcissistic
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personality disorder and going no contact.
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That change in my life was so
dramatic that I said, wow, it
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just gave me this huge vantage
point of looking at my patients.
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Maybe other people are going through
some something similar reading about
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internal family systems and then seeing
the exact opposite of my failed ADHD
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sort of teaching attempt was everybody
was having breakthroughs and I was
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only informed by my path, which is not.
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If I do something and it's like
high caliber, let's say there's
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a standard of excellence.
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Now I, it is the environment, the group
environment, the family environment, what
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have you, is now a safer place to live.
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And I was thinking about this idea, so
it's like group dynamic stabilization.
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We have a will to live, we're
gonna act out of that will.
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We're gonna do things that are
repeatable and predictable, these
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behaviors, and if they have an outcome
outside of us that affect other people,
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that's really, really a good thing.
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So ultimately, I think that's what the
cool part about this stuff as an adult
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now, is that when we peel back and look
at ourselves and be real about what
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we're holding and what our emotions
are telling us, then we can say, okay,
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there's a different way of doing things.
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That's the part that takes a minute.
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We have to unpack that, and no
one has the same sort of rate,
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but, on the other side of it is
the person that we knew all along.
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So, you know, perfectionistic can give
out some really good quality stuff.
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You know, this is gonna still
have a, have a eye for quality
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and , greatness and, and so forth.
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The interesting thing about my path
was if there was this standard, it
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was like, you know, crickets, you
know, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.
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So I learned to just
kind of focus on myself.
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I realized.
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You know, no one really cares.
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So, but then in that is another
thing for perfectionism, I didn't
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realize in my sort of solitude and
in my sort of creative endeavors,
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there was this sort of sadness there.
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Being able to sit with that and
name it to me is something that with
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medication, ADHD medication, that can
be the tipping point where maybe the
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brain's online more, but not always.
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James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
think that's a really powerful,
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powerful part to put in here.
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Talking about being on a good
medication regimen, it's like,
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I think that allows you to have
less armor walking through life.
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Like you are able to kinda be a
little bit more vulnerable and I think
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able to, you know, get to a point
where, okay, you know, B+ work that
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I finished today is better than A+
work that doesn't get finished ever.
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Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Those
are the hurdles, the real
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life hurdles in the moment.
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That we face.
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When are we gonna be challenged?
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So I think of two planes.
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There's two planes.
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One is in isolation by ourselves, and one
is around other people because especially
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if there's a group dynamic reinforcement
or survival strategy, we have this
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sixth sense of reading the room as long
as we're not on the autism spectrum.
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But that aside, we're gonna have
this, this intuition in terms of
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social reciprocity that is so natural.
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It's, you know, you could argue it's
just instantaneous and electromagnetic
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and whatever else you wanna say because
if you look on EEGs of people, when they
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get in a group, we get more lizard brain.
00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:06.120
You know, we're, we're social creatures,
so we're gonna be operating out of
00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:10.460
a place of automatic instantaneous
interactions, bouncing off each other.
00:12:10.640 --> 00:12:13.430
And if your medication's not on
board, then you have no frontal lobe.
00:12:13.580 --> 00:12:16.865
So with the frontal lobe, we
might have just a little bit
00:12:16.865 --> 00:12:19.925
more ability to just stop and sit
and say, what's going on here?
00:12:19.985 --> 00:12:21.815
Instead of just flying into action.
00:12:22.115 --> 00:12:25.535
And it could be that, wait a minute,
I feel really, really stressed out.
00:12:25.535 --> 00:12:29.975
So many people say, I just started my
medication, but I'm really stressed out.
00:12:29.975 --> 00:12:31.295
It's like, well, what did you do before?
00:12:31.295 --> 00:12:32.765
It's like, oh, I punched
a hole in the wall.
00:12:32.765 --> 00:12:34.085
I threw something across the room.
00:12:34.365 --> 00:12:38.835
That's the bottom line is
it starts and it ends there.
00:12:39.195 --> 00:12:43.545
This is what I feel, the end, that's
it and all emotions are normal.
00:12:43.545 --> 00:12:48.225
So if we can say, this is the
emotion, it is normal, and that is it.
00:12:48.225 --> 00:12:52.265
But the emotional center, if we can
start there and say, this is what I feel,
00:12:52.265 --> 00:12:54.605
I think that's a powerful first step.
00:12:54.687 --> 00:12:55.137
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: well said.
00:12:55.437 --> 00:12:57.927
I completely agree with that.
00:12:57.927 --> 00:13:00.477
And I think again, too, I liked
hearing, just like putting the brakes
00:13:00.477 --> 00:13:03.957
on things , and sitting with that
discomfort and the anxiety and the stress
00:13:03.957 --> 00:13:05.217
and then, you know, reflecting on it.
00:13:05.217 --> 00:13:07.908
Where's that coming from,
why am I feeling that?
00:13:07.908 --> 00:13:12.798
How do you peel that dance of trauma
and ADHD and all of the other things
00:13:12.798 --> 00:13:15.378
that are co-occurring and I think that
that is, like you said, a great first
00:13:15.378 --> 00:13:17.478
step to really to begin that process.
00:13:17.608 --> 00:13:17.818
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:13:17.818 --> 00:13:22.438
Well, the one thing is I think when
we identify where we are or like we're
00:13:22.438 --> 00:13:24.508
in this place, okay, we're triggered.
00:13:24.588 --> 00:13:28.158
Another way of putting it is our
inner child is jumping out at us.
00:13:28.308 --> 00:13:31.518
It could be a version or a
mode of ourselves, we could
00:13:31.518 --> 00:13:32.688
call what we want to call it.
00:13:32.928 --> 00:13:38.008
But when we, identify it, then we
might be able to say, okay, now what?
00:13:38.068 --> 00:13:40.198
Especially if we've done the
work when we're not triggered.
00:13:40.703 --> 00:13:46.683
What I would say is in regards to
perfectionism, and you mentioned
00:13:46.683 --> 00:13:48.183
OCD, I'm really glad you did.
00:13:48.513 --> 00:13:51.153
The way I conceptualize
obsessive compulsive disorder
00:13:51.153 --> 00:13:52.743
is very much cognitive.
00:13:53.043 --> 00:13:58.083
So something our mind does in response to
the nervous system is think you ever seen
00:13:58.083 --> 00:14:00.513
MacGyver or Walter White in Breaking Bad?
00:14:00.513 --> 00:14:04.713
He got that survival mode in
and bang, it was great, right?
00:14:04.803 --> 00:14:07.233
So that's him using his
mind under pressure.
00:14:07.473 --> 00:14:11.973
But the problem is, is that our mind is
racing because we're not calm in the way
00:14:11.973 --> 00:14:15.423
we used to be there's now a better way
of doing things and our body knows it.
00:14:15.723 --> 00:14:16.233
So.
00:14:16.708 --> 00:14:20.068
If we realize and identify we're
triggered, we might be able to say.
00:14:20.478 --> 00:14:21.558
Not the time to think.
00:14:21.588 --> 00:14:25.458
'cause if we are thinking then
we're not thinking clearly.
00:14:25.578 --> 00:14:29.178
So this is why we say come to your senses
because you're not thinking clearly.
00:14:29.178 --> 00:14:32.548
It's 'cause our nervous
system is focused on survival.
00:14:32.548 --> 00:14:35.038
So we have a limited
view, it's right here.
00:14:35.128 --> 00:14:36.808
And we can't see outside of ourselves.
00:14:36.858 --> 00:14:39.798
I think it was like 2014, my
wife and I were coming back from
00:14:39.798 --> 00:14:43.038
Florida and a panic attack on the
airplane just totally lost my mind.
00:14:43.428 --> 00:14:44.148
And, uh.
00:14:44.443 --> 00:14:48.253
After it was over, it was really
during takeoff, it leveled out and it
00:14:48.253 --> 00:14:51.313
was all gone and just shame came in.
00:14:51.673 --> 00:14:55.543
But it's just amazing how like
our emotions or how we experience
00:14:55.543 --> 00:14:59.083
them can can shift and change
but if we can catch ourselves and
00:14:59.083 --> 00:15:01.063
do something different and say
00:15:01.113 --> 00:15:05.723
not the time right now or, what am
I holding is a good one, you know?
00:15:05.823 --> 00:15:08.743
And having those strategies
let me go in the other room.
00:15:08.743 --> 00:15:09.763
Let me write something down.
00:15:09.763 --> 00:15:11.743
But there are times when it won't work.
00:15:11.743 --> 00:15:13.393
Our mind just wants to stay on.
00:15:13.423 --> 00:15:16.273
Especially if you have that hyper
focus and you have solved problems.
00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:19.993
There's a problem that we may have
actually solved in our mind as a child
00:15:20.023 --> 00:15:23.123
that, problem that was unsolvable,
we may have solved in our mind.
00:15:23.123 --> 00:15:24.053
If you can think about that.
00:15:24.383 --> 00:15:24.923
So.
00:15:25.578 --> 00:15:28.128
When we're coming from that perspective,
it's like, why doesn't it work?
00:15:28.128 --> 00:15:31.118
I've talked to patients and usually
in technical jobs, they're like,
00:15:31.148 --> 00:15:32.468
I need to solve this problem.
00:15:32.468 --> 00:15:34.178
You know, the thinking,
thinking, thinking.
00:15:34.328 --> 00:15:37.928
If we're never able to draw
attention to what do I feel,
00:15:37.938 --> 00:15:40.638
oh, I feel my feet on the floor.
00:15:41.088 --> 00:15:44.298
I breathe in and out, you know,
activate the peripheral nervous system.
00:15:45.108 --> 00:15:47.538
If we're not able to do that,
the mind just gonna keep going.
00:15:47.748 --> 00:15:51.563
'cause the solution is
not outside of ourselves.
00:15:51.743 --> 00:15:53.843
So on we go and on we go and on we go.
00:15:53.933 --> 00:15:57.823
And that's what I'd say is this
pathological manifestation or sort
00:15:57.823 --> 00:16:03.043
of pathophysiology as it gets worse
psychopathology I suppose would be the
00:16:03.043 --> 00:16:08.403
right term, that's kind of the way I
view OCD, being informed by this work.
00:16:08.403 --> 00:16:10.973
You know, working with folks,
whether it's autism or people that
00:16:10.973 --> 00:16:12.473
just cannot turn their mind off.
00:16:12.523 --> 00:16:14.093
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: No,
it get, that gets me thinking too.
00:16:14.093 --> 00:16:17.863
I kind of came up with this little
phrase and I was thinking more externally
00:16:17.863 --> 00:16:22.293
and about systems, but I think hearing
your thoughts on internally all of
00:16:22.293 --> 00:16:25.743
this, I think it's a great phrase that
kind of catches all of it and present
00:16:25.743 --> 00:16:27.303
beats perfect every single time.
00:16:27.693 --> 00:16:29.373
So I think that that works both
00:16:29.577 --> 00:16:30.237
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Oh yeah.
00:16:30.543 --> 00:16:33.003
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: about,
know, being with people that you
00:16:33.003 --> 00:16:38.233
care about and being present, and not
just on these tasks of A+ necessity.
00:16:38.683 --> 00:16:39.573
But I think you're right too.
00:16:39.573 --> 00:16:43.953
I think being internally present for
yourself is extraordinarily powerful and
00:16:43.953 --> 00:16:46.353
I think did a great job summing that up.
00:16:46.353 --> 00:16:48.423
And I think it's important,
you know, just be present.
00:16:48.423 --> 00:16:49.263
You don't have to be perfect.
00:16:49.332 --> 00:16:51.672
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: As a
growing person, you're relying
00:16:51.672 --> 00:16:53.082
on things outside of yourself.
00:16:53.382 --> 00:17:01.212
So you're constantly looking for ways
to continue to feel calm, provided that,
00:17:01.372 --> 00:17:04.522
there's something that is preventing
us from feeling naturally calm.
00:17:04.522 --> 00:17:08.242
And that's the reality, is that
we're never gonna go back to our
00:17:08.272 --> 00:17:12.202
former selves and say, you're
all fixed and be able to do that.
00:17:12.502 --> 00:17:16.192
But what we're able to do is within
ourselves, realize what we didn't get.
00:17:16.192 --> 00:17:20.122
There's a really ironic duality here,
so it's like this acceptance piece
00:17:20.182 --> 00:17:22.642
and understanding we have survived,
00:17:22.642 --> 00:17:27.232
so therefore, as we walk in to the
office meeting or walk into the party
00:17:27.232 --> 00:17:30.652
where you don't know people and you
feel uncomfortable, we might have
00:17:30.652 --> 00:17:36.267
different ways of doing things in the
past, but it's not until we walk in
00:17:36.267 --> 00:17:40.977
and we experience it and we get that
feedback that we understand how we feel.
00:17:41.247 --> 00:17:46.387
So that's tricky when it comes to , what
are our old patterns and old ways.
00:17:46.437 --> 00:17:49.617
As we get that compass centered.
00:17:49.617 --> 00:17:53.487
You know, you sit the compass right here
and you allow it to sort of point you in
00:17:53.487 --> 00:17:58.557
the direction and what's the direction it
starts with how you feel, and then from
00:17:58.557 --> 00:18:03.507
there we have to learn how to navigate
the world based upon that but it's taking
00:18:03.507 --> 00:18:05.997
stock of what we're bringing to the party.
00:18:06.247 --> 00:18:09.217
Because if we do care about other
people, then we wanna make sure
00:18:09.217 --> 00:18:10.987
that we can do the best job.
00:18:10.987 --> 00:18:13.147
We wanna make sure we can
live up to these promises.
00:18:13.147 --> 00:18:13.847
Does that make sense?
00:18:13.847 --> 00:18:14.057
Hit the
00:18:14.057 --> 00:18:14.517
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
nail on the head.
00:18:14.517 --> 00:18:17.638
And I think that kind of leads me
to my final concluding thought.
00:18:17.638 --> 00:18:21.148
I think we've done a really
good job, kind of in summation
00:18:21.302 --> 00:18:21.582
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: A+!
00:18:22.418 --> 00:18:25.018
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: A+ will
be kind of integrated in that so I think
00:18:25.617 --> 00:18:27.677
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC:
Oh, oh, let's say B+.
00:18:27.838 --> 00:18:28.798
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
Well, they'll both be part of this.
00:18:28.798 --> 00:18:33.253
So I think just hearing this, like
the bravest thing that an ADHD adult
00:18:33.253 --> 00:18:36.953
can do, and especially a person
that might be more, subject to those
00:18:36.953 --> 00:18:41.683
perfectionistic traits and such, so
accepting the B+ work in one hour
00:18:42.203 --> 00:18:47.273
is gonna be far more ideal than A++
work that you've spent 10 hours on.
00:18:47.273 --> 00:18:50.303
while that perfectionism might've
saved you in third grade, eighth
00:18:50.303 --> 00:18:54.835
grade, maybe even in college, it's
robbing your child, effectively just
00:18:54.835 --> 00:18:56.665
sabotaging your ability to be present.
00:18:56.875 --> 00:18:57.775
I think it's important.
00:18:57.775 --> 00:19:01.075
It's time to retire your armor,
your 8-year-old self is safe now
00:19:01.075 --> 00:19:04.555
and those strategies that were
important then to kind of mitigate
00:19:04.555 --> 00:19:06.355
it are actually, hang them up.
00:19:06.445 --> 00:19:09.115
I think there's, there's, there's
other ways that, that they're go about
00:19:09.115 --> 00:19:12.355
things at this juncture that gonna let
you find that presence and find that
00:19:12.355 --> 00:19:13.680
balance in life and sustainability.
00:19:14.296 --> 00:19:16.726
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I wonder if
there's other mental health clinicians
00:19:16.726 --> 00:19:17.986
out there listening right now.
00:19:17.986 --> 00:19:19.066
I'd love to hear from you.
00:19:19.636 --> 00:19:21.801
Compass Point Institute, YouTube channel.
00:19:22.486 --> 00:19:23.836
Gonna work on the call to action.
00:19:24.076 --> 00:19:28.036
But nonetheless, , if we had to survive in
this way, I think there's an interesting
00:19:28.036 --> 00:19:33.616
duality where a lot of us with these
perfectionistic tendencies or childhood
00:19:33.646 --> 00:19:36.076
trauma wounds, although it can be
00:19:36.076 --> 00:19:39.856
really detrimental and it's not
to say that everyone is gonna be
00:19:39.856 --> 00:19:41.876
able to be successful in life.
00:19:41.876 --> 00:19:46.436
You know, survival is happening outside
of us and if we adapt and we learn and
00:19:46.436 --> 00:19:51.266
we grow, and we only get one little
part of this puzzle, which is how do we
00:19:51.306 --> 00:19:52.866
respond, what do we do automatically?
00:19:52.866 --> 00:19:54.156
You know, how does our life unfold?
00:19:54.396 --> 00:19:57.996
But for many of us, have a higher
degree, you know, I've known lawyers a
00:19:57.996 --> 00:20:02.816
lot of my patients are higher academic
positions or maybe success, whatever
00:20:02.816 --> 00:20:04.976
society tells us, "you should be happy".
00:20:05.096 --> 00:20:06.956
And that's the really interesting irony.
00:20:06.956 --> 00:20:08.366
All that glitters isn't gold.
00:20:08.666 --> 00:20:11.126
But if we're able to heal, you
know, this survival, it can
00:20:11.126 --> 00:20:12.506
actually do wonderful things.
00:20:12.506 --> 00:20:16.346
And I think when we are able to reduce
the negative impact, then we can
00:20:16.346 --> 00:20:19.436
see, oh, okay, all the cool things,
you know, it's like all the, all the
00:20:19.436 --> 00:20:22.496
good things about our life story,
we wouldn't have it any other way.
00:20:22.496 --> 00:20:26.701
I think that's a really like
interesting uniformity among everyone.
00:20:26.701 --> 00:20:29.851
Once we heal, we're like, well, we
wouldn't want in any other way 'cause
00:20:29.851 --> 00:20:35.821
we have a new sort of set of eyes on
what brought us here and the takeaway,
00:20:35.821 --> 00:20:39.001
and I realize this, this is like
kind of the big one for me, which is
00:20:39.271 --> 00:20:40.981
perfect, is the enemy of the good.
00:20:41.788 --> 00:20:43.873
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Old
adage, that still holds as true as ever.
00:20:49.223 --> 00:20:51.873
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: For a certain point
in my life, probably early twenties, mind
00:20:51.873 --> 00:20:54.993
you, my high school GPA was I think 1.5
00:20:54.993 --> 00:20:55.533
or something.
00:20:55.533 --> 00:20:59.733
I just pretty much barely graduated
and having like no direction and then
00:20:59.733 --> 00:21:03.423
finally in my early twenties, finding
this field and really getting into that.
00:21:03.423 --> 00:21:07.263
But there was this, for me, it wasn't
, oh, I need to be a perfectionist.
00:21:07.263 --> 00:21:12.713
It was like, well, now at this
point there's nothing left to lose.
00:21:13.163 --> 00:21:17.453
But in that, when are you gonna actually
say to yourself what achievement,
00:21:17.453 --> 00:21:21.533
what milestone, what thing outside of
yourself is gonna say, oh, you did it.
00:21:22.028 --> 00:21:23.678
You know, what is that all about?
00:21:23.858 --> 00:21:27.308
Because sitting here at my desk,
at my private practice, having an
00:21:27.308 --> 00:21:31.838
advanced degree, you know, that was
when it hit me like, uh oh, I don't
00:21:31.838 --> 00:21:33.368
think it's gonna be this thing.
00:21:33.638 --> 00:21:35.588
I don't think it's
gonna be this milestone.
00:21:35.588 --> 00:21:37.058
I don't think it's gonna be this weekend.
00:21:37.058 --> 00:21:38.528
I don't think it's gonna be this thing.
00:21:38.768 --> 00:21:39.233
You know what I mean?
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:40.349
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Yeah,
00:21:40.358 --> 00:21:40.418
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:21:40.418 --> 00:21:41.348
It's here now.
00:21:41.438 --> 00:21:41.828
Yeah.
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:43.619
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
really great place to end it.
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:47.939
I think important, you know, once you
actually meet that milestone, if you're
00:21:47.939 --> 00:21:52.169
not able to sit there, recognize and enjoy
and give yourself credit and grace for,
00:21:52.169 --> 00:21:56.429
for getting there, that's an indicator
that you know, probably work to be done.
00:21:58.533 --> 00:22:00.393
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: This is
the Compass Point Institute.
00:22:00.513 --> 00:22:04.083
Check us out on YouTube anywhere
you listen to podcasts, just
00:22:04.083 --> 00:22:04.983
come along for the ride.
00:22:04.983 --> 00:22:06.753
Thank you, and we'll see you next time.
00:22:06.804 --> 00:22:07.924
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
See you next time.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:05.780
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: All right.
00:00:05.810 --> 00:00:07.970
We are back in the
Compass Point Institute.
00:00:07.970 --> 00:00:08.809
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
How's your day going?
00:00:08.810 --> 00:00:09.469
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: It's good.
00:00:09.469 --> 00:00:13.104
You know this, the comings and goings
of, uh, working professional, I suppose.
00:00:13.436 --> 00:00:13.976
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Indeed.
00:00:14.216 --> 00:00:15.416
Well, great to be back.
00:00:15.466 --> 00:00:17.236
I'm James Kennedy, nurse practitioner
00:00:17.236 --> 00:00:19.461
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Jon Murphy,
psychiatric nurse practitioner.
00:00:19.491 --> 00:00:20.141
Good to be here.
00:00:20.393 --> 00:00:21.923
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: So
today we're diving to something that
00:00:21.923 --> 00:00:24.733
might hit a little bit uncomfortably
close to home, especially with
00:00:24.733 --> 00:00:26.113
individuals that have ADHD.
00:00:26.633 --> 00:00:30.143
We're talking about that dance
of hyper focus and perfectionism,
00:00:30.413 --> 00:00:32.963
but not the humble brag kind that
you mentioned in job interviews.
00:00:33.113 --> 00:00:38.123
So I'm talking about that type that
steals your life just one excellent
00:00:38.123 --> 00:00:41.933
hour at a time, whether it's the
hyperfocus holes that you find yourself
00:00:41.933 --> 00:00:43.643
in or just the downstream effects.
00:00:43.973 --> 00:00:46.043
That's kind of what
we're focusing on today.
00:00:46.173 --> 00:00:49.803
I think also looking back for some
individuals perfectionist tendencies
00:00:50.413 --> 00:00:53.373
might have been a survival strategy
that helped them in earlier years,
00:00:53.373 --> 00:00:57.213
age 8, 10, 12, to kind of help sit
there and, reduce impairment related
00:00:57.213 --> 00:00:59.463
to executive functioning challenges.
00:00:59.853 --> 00:01:02.703
But is now, you know, at the age
of 40, holding you hostage and just
00:01:02.703 --> 00:01:04.293
joining you one hour at a time.
00:01:04.293 --> 00:01:05.713
Any kind of thoughts on that Jon?
00:01:05.733 --> 00:01:05.973
or.
00:01:05.973 --> 00:01:06.273
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:01:06.273 --> 00:01:06.543
Yeah.
00:01:06.543 --> 00:01:06.843
Well,
00:01:06.843 --> 00:01:10.043
I mean, I think that speaks true to
me and my experience, I know we were
00:01:10.043 --> 00:01:15.533
talking recently about reinforcement
and I found in my journey of life
00:01:15.593 --> 00:01:17.513
that I was reinforced into patterns.
00:01:17.513 --> 00:01:19.019
I think, What's the drive?
00:01:19.019 --> 00:01:20.369
You know, what's fueling the drive?
00:01:20.369 --> 00:01:25.349
And that's a really mysterious thing,
especially again, I think you say 40.
00:01:25.349 --> 00:01:29.219
Well, for me I was probably like
38, so not much closer and I think
00:01:29.219 --> 00:01:32.849
there's only reasonably so much
time that we have as an adult.
00:01:32.849 --> 00:01:35.759
You know, I've talked to people in
their twenties and I'm always happy
00:01:35.759 --> 00:01:39.839
for them, but it's gonna be hard to see
outside yourself through the passage
00:01:39.839 --> 00:01:44.939
of time to really look back and say,
Hey, wait a minute, what was going on?
00:01:44.999 --> 00:01:46.439
But with perfectionism.
00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:49.959
The interesting thing from my point of
view is, we talked about hyperfocus.
00:01:50.009 --> 00:01:53.249
I was ironically editing the videos
that are on the YouTube channel
00:01:53.249 --> 00:01:56.609
now and I was in hyperfocus.
00:01:57.089 --> 00:02:01.499
I was editing videos about hyperfocus
while in hyperfocus, imagine my surprise.
00:02:02.069 --> 00:02:05.189
And I realized in that it's
like what is driving us?
00:02:05.189 --> 00:02:09.402
And at the end of the day, I was
like wanting something at the
00:02:09.402 --> 00:02:15.762
end of it all, but that something
actually was in spite of the world.
00:02:15.792 --> 00:02:18.822
And really that's how my
creativity and perfectionism works.
00:02:18.822 --> 00:02:23.172
It's, it's like this personal sense
of satisfaction that I will actually
00:02:23.382 --> 00:02:26.262
sabotage myself in order to get it.
00:02:26.502 --> 00:02:28.482
But you're talking about something
a little different, right?
00:02:28.684 --> 00:02:30.454
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
mean, I think you raised a good point.
00:02:30.454 --> 00:02:33.054
I think everybody's experiences
are unique, and it just kind
00:02:33.054 --> 00:02:34.404
of manifests in different ways.
00:02:34.724 --> 00:02:38.994
We know the data supports that
about 30% or so people with ADHD
00:02:39.014 --> 00:02:40.664
develop OCD, like behaviors.
00:02:40.754 --> 00:02:44.934
To clarify, not OCD, but behaviors
that are, in that sort of more
00:02:44.934 --> 00:02:47.364
compulsive obsessive bucket.
00:02:47.554 --> 00:02:51.104
There are a fair amount of individuals
that have OCPD and ADHD and
00:02:51.104 --> 00:02:52.664
those are the more extreme cases.
00:02:53.004 --> 00:02:53.484
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.
00:02:53.580 --> 00:02:55.680
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: studies
have shown us that if you have ADHD,
00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:59.070
your first degree relatives are
significantly more likely to have OCD.
00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:01.540
There's definitely a dance between
the two of them, there's a shared
00:03:01.540 --> 00:03:04.750
genetic architecture that I think
we can all sit there and agree upon.
00:03:04.950 --> 00:03:08.040
You know, dopamine regulation
and dysregulation that really
00:03:08.040 --> 00:03:10.590
kind of just impart this dance
that we're talking about.
00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:13.140
For individuals that really have
more of those challenges with those
00:03:13.140 --> 00:03:16.260
OCPD like behaviors, that's when that
perfectionism, I think what you're
00:03:16.260 --> 00:03:19.710
kind of talking about gets to a point
where it is really pathological.
00:03:19.760 --> 00:03:22.340
We've talked about the trap of
hyperfocus before and kind of
00:03:22.340 --> 00:03:24.050
the resulting cycles about that.
00:03:24.100 --> 00:03:27.240
You know, just picture like a child,
like eight, 10 years old or so, losing
00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:28.620
everything, forgetting everything.
00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:32.610
They can't sit still but then they kind
of discovered like, hey, if I'm looking
00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:36.390
at my backpack 47 different times, if I'm
creating these lists and these structures,
00:03:36.750 --> 00:03:38.100
oh wait, teacher's not yelling at me.
00:03:38.100 --> 00:03:39.450
My parents aren't getting mad at me.
00:03:39.450 --> 00:03:42.840
Oh, I'm, I'm doing a little bit better
in school and for some people I think
00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:47.130
that drives those perfectionistic
tendencies even further because
00:03:47.130 --> 00:03:50.550
they're a way to mitigate those ADHD
related executive functioning symptoms.
00:03:50.620 --> 00:03:53.200
You know, it's, it's not necessarily
a better situation, it's just
00:03:53.200 --> 00:03:54.790
swapping one issue out for another.
00:03:55.164 --> 00:03:55.584
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Mm-hmm.
00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.030
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: For those
individuals and for a lot of other, you
00:03:58.030 --> 00:04:01.930
know, maybe not as extreme cases, that
perfectionism becomes a survival strategy.
00:04:02.120 --> 00:04:02.570
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:04:02.630 --> 00:04:03.050
Yeah.
00:04:03.252 --> 00:04:05.772
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: thing to
kind of look at really holistically here.
00:04:05.772 --> 00:04:09.782
In some ways those individuals are
able to do better in school and I mean,
00:04:09.842 --> 00:04:13.892
academically grade wise, not necessarily
holistically big picture because that's
00:04:13.892 --> 00:04:15.332
not a sustainable way to live your life.
00:04:15.332 --> 00:04:18.992
But on paper, you know, you
might see high academic success.
00:04:19.292 --> 00:04:23.132
Maybe that's also fueled by pressure from
parents or other things that are going on.
00:04:23.132 --> 00:04:26.432
But when you kind of see that play out
for, you know, another decade, another
00:04:26.432 --> 00:04:29.032
decade that perfectionism become a prison.
00:04:29.072 --> 00:04:32.822
You're just trapped into that
cycle and it's a really challenging
00:04:32.822 --> 00:04:34.832
and dark place to be thrust in.
00:04:34.932 --> 00:04:37.782
Your perfectionism isn't
necessarily character strength,
00:04:38.262 --> 00:04:40.032
it's your ADHD brain's Armor.
00:04:40.317 --> 00:04:44.337
The biggest issue is the amount of time
that they spend on these different tasks.
00:04:44.397 --> 00:04:48.567
And if you are that type of person that
has those perfectionist tendencies.
00:04:48.567 --> 00:04:51.597
You're spending 10 hours on different
things that just could have taken an hour
00:04:51.597 --> 00:04:56.427
or so and had you have just spent an hour
and maybe got 85, 90% as good of output,
00:04:56.787 --> 00:05:01.027
you'd have all that extra time to spend,
on wellness, on family, on other things.
00:05:01.027 --> 00:05:04.882
Especially when, individuals get older,
there are large gaps in their life
00:05:04.882 --> 00:05:08.452
because they're still dedicating all
these time to tasks that should honestly
00:05:08.452 --> 00:05:11.302
take way, way less than they are,
and then you've got family stressors,
00:05:11.302 --> 00:05:14.332
you've got other things coming in it,
and they just don't have the ability to
00:05:14.332 --> 00:05:18.052
kind of switch to that and, you know,
devote and allocate appropriate time.
00:05:18.262 --> 00:05:21.592
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: You know, with
ADHD, when you're treating it as well
00:05:21.592 --> 00:05:26.032
as living with it, whatever, it's
like your brain's now reliably online.
00:05:26.032 --> 00:05:27.112
So what does that mean?
00:05:27.272 --> 00:05:29.132
That's the interesting
thing, person to person.
00:05:29.132 --> 00:05:31.292
Okay, now what, what have we been through?
00:05:31.292 --> 00:05:32.312
What are we going through?
00:05:32.312 --> 00:05:36.952
You know, and all these patterns, when we
think of survival, we're thinking about
00:05:36.952 --> 00:05:42.630
a period of time in our lives where if we
did something that affected us externally,
00:05:42.630 --> 00:05:47.340
meaning it made us able to be reliant
upon people or situations or groups,
00:05:47.550 --> 00:05:52.500
if we were able to be dependent because
of something that we did, that's a win.
00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:58.605
So we're gonna do what works and at a
period of time in our lives, childhood
00:05:58.605 --> 00:06:01.305
or adolescence anytime before adulthood.
00:06:01.875 --> 00:06:06.922
That's the win, but it's jarring when
we go from doing things one way to
00:06:06.922 --> 00:06:11.152
now we're an adult and we're really
gonna do best to say what am I feeling?
00:06:11.202 --> 00:06:15.542
How do I go about in the world
based upon what we're experiencing?
00:06:15.852 --> 00:06:19.902
If we're reacting and responding to outta
control situations and circumstances,
00:06:20.142 --> 00:06:23.682
how are we gonna know what we're feeling?
00:06:23.682 --> 00:06:27.455
So this is the stuff we have to
work through and, ADHD treatment
00:06:27.505 --> 00:06:30.085
it can be one of the many things
that breaks down the walls.
00:06:30.115 --> 00:06:34.152
But nonetheless, um, it's finding
a different operating system we've
00:06:34.212 --> 00:06:36.252
outgrown the old way of doing things.
00:06:36.252 --> 00:06:38.832
So how do we find the
new way of doing things?
00:06:38.832 --> 00:06:42.432
And you know, just to be real,
James being real brave right now.
00:06:42.432 --> 00:06:43.422
You're working through it.
00:06:43.422 --> 00:06:46.632
I can tell, and I know this 'cause
I've worked through too, of his mental
00:06:46.632 --> 00:06:48.642
health clinicians listening to this.
00:06:49.032 --> 00:06:50.742
I saw a post on LinkedIn the other day.
00:06:50.742 --> 00:06:53.622
Right now there's a lot of people that
are struggling, but there's a lot of
00:06:53.622 --> 00:06:57.282
people that want to help, like James
and I and other therapists out there,
00:06:57.282 --> 00:06:58.872
if you're listening, other clinicians.
00:06:59.222 --> 00:07:03.872
Sometimes people can really forget that
we're people too, you know, and we have
00:07:03.872 --> 00:07:05.342
our own sort of stuff to work through.
00:07:05.342 --> 00:07:08.912
But the good news is if we are able
to do that, we're gonna be so much
00:07:08.912 --> 00:07:10.562
better at helping other people.
00:07:10.562 --> 00:07:12.002
'cause we've walked the walk.
00:07:12.092 --> 00:07:12.632
Am I right?
00:07:12.684 --> 00:07:14.034
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
I completely agree on that.
00:07:14.034 --> 00:07:16.514
I think that's an important part
to really look at the day-to-day
00:07:16.514 --> 00:07:18.524
with these patients, let's
break down what's happening.
00:07:18.534 --> 00:07:20.264
You're doing a patient,
note, How long did it take?
00:07:20.294 --> 00:07:21.404
Oh, it took you two hours.
00:07:21.494 --> 00:07:22.694
Should it take you 20 minutes?
00:07:23.084 --> 00:07:24.734
Oh, breakfast preparation for your family.
00:07:24.734 --> 00:07:25.874
It had to be something elaborate.
00:07:25.964 --> 00:07:27.089
Oh, you spent 45 minutes on that.
00:07:27.364 --> 00:07:28.654
Could have probably done it in 10.
00:07:28.654 --> 00:07:31.534
An email response it's just
a low level, simple email,
00:07:31.594 --> 00:07:33.484
you spend 30 minutes
on it instead of five.
00:07:33.934 --> 00:07:37.144
And looking at that, kind of extrapolating
that over the week, it's like, wow, that's
00:07:37.144 --> 00:07:38.944
nine hours over the course of a week.
00:07:39.054 --> 00:07:40.494
Is that how you want your
children to remember you?
00:07:40.494 --> 00:07:42.024
Not to say that you don't
wanna strive for excellence.
00:07:42.024 --> 00:07:44.564
I think it is good to sit
there and, strive for it.
00:07:44.564 --> 00:07:46.274
But what is driving that process for it?
00:07:46.324 --> 00:07:50.494
I think trying to take a step back
and coldly looking at it, okay, so
00:07:50.884 --> 00:07:52.474
excellence should kind of energize you.
00:07:52.524 --> 00:07:54.114
Celebrate B+ plus work,
00:07:54.264 --> 00:07:57.084
fear is gonna demand an A+ or death.
00:07:57.134 --> 00:07:58.274
There is no middle ground.
00:07:58.274 --> 00:08:00.134
There isn't good enough is good enough.
00:08:00.214 --> 00:08:03.154
They're not able to sit there and get
to that point where, where they can
00:08:03.154 --> 00:08:05.924
reconcile that, if that makes any sense.
00:08:05.974 --> 00:08:09.919
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I've realized
myself we're gonna, my best vantage point,
00:08:10.339 --> 00:08:15.709
learning to deal with my toxic mother,
working toward healing trauma that I've
00:08:15.709 --> 00:08:18.049
been through and working with my patients.
00:08:18.829 --> 00:08:23.489
This is coming after several years of
feeling like my life was changed because
00:08:23.489 --> 00:08:28.019
I had gotten my ADHD on track and I
thought, I'm gonna change the world.
00:08:28.019 --> 00:08:30.449
And it turns out no one really cared.
00:08:30.449 --> 00:08:31.439
It was boring.
00:08:31.769 --> 00:08:34.429
And I realized, you know,
we're much more than that.
00:08:34.429 --> 00:08:35.659
It's what's the resistance?
00:08:35.659 --> 00:08:37.609
And I realized these
tools that I developed.
00:08:37.609 --> 00:08:42.499
They had suited me in my particular
sort of tendencies and then working
00:08:42.499 --> 00:08:47.759
with patients, getting over the trauma
realizing that my mother has narcissistic
00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:49.859
personality disorder and going no contact.
00:08:50.189 --> 00:08:55.829
That change in my life was so
dramatic that I said, wow, it
00:08:55.829 --> 00:08:58.784
just gave me this huge vantage
point of looking at my patients.
00:08:58.784 --> 00:09:02.054
Maybe other people are going through
some something similar reading about
00:09:02.054 --> 00:09:08.724
internal family systems and then seeing
the exact opposite of my failed ADHD
00:09:08.744 --> 00:09:14.224
sort of teaching attempt was everybody
was having breakthroughs and I was
00:09:14.224 --> 00:09:17.734
only informed by my path, which is not.
00:09:19.084 --> 00:09:23.284
If I do something and it's like
high caliber, let's say there's
00:09:23.284 --> 00:09:24.694
a standard of excellence.
00:09:25.144 --> 00:09:29.674
Now I, it is the environment, the group
environment, the family environment, what
00:09:29.674 --> 00:09:32.254
have you, is now a safer place to live.
00:09:32.254 --> 00:09:36.514
And I was thinking about this idea, so
it's like group dynamic stabilization.
00:09:36.814 --> 00:09:39.394
We have a will to live, we're
gonna act out of that will.
00:09:40.004 --> 00:09:42.644
We're gonna do things that are
repeatable and predictable, these
00:09:42.644 --> 00:09:47.504
behaviors, and if they have an outcome
outside of us that affect other people,
00:09:47.714 --> 00:09:49.184
that's really, really a good thing.
00:09:49.394 --> 00:09:53.114
So ultimately, I think that's what the
cool part about this stuff as an adult
00:09:53.114 --> 00:09:58.064
now, is that when we peel back and look
at ourselves and be real about what
00:09:58.064 --> 00:10:02.734
we're holding and what our emotions
are telling us, then we can say, okay,
00:10:02.914 --> 00:10:04.144
there's a different way of doing things.
00:10:04.144 --> 00:10:05.584
That's the part that takes a minute.
00:10:05.584 --> 00:10:08.464
We have to unpack that, and no
one has the same sort of rate,
00:10:08.854 --> 00:10:12.884
but, on the other side of it is
the person that we knew all along.
00:10:12.884 --> 00:10:17.294
So, you know, perfectionistic can give
out some really good quality stuff.
00:10:17.324 --> 00:10:20.834
You know, this is gonna still
have a, have a eye for quality
00:10:20.834 --> 00:10:23.054
and , greatness and, and so forth.
00:10:23.354 --> 00:10:28.424
The interesting thing about my path
was if there was this standard, it
00:10:28.424 --> 00:10:31.964
was like, you know, crickets, you
know, chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp.
00:10:32.084 --> 00:10:34.454
So I learned to just
kind of focus on myself.
00:10:34.454 --> 00:10:35.054
I realized.
00:10:35.669 --> 00:10:37.229
You know, no one really cares.
00:10:37.229 --> 00:10:41.149
So, but then in that is another
thing for perfectionism, I didn't
00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:45.309
realize in my sort of solitude and
in my sort of creative endeavors,
00:10:45.359 --> 00:10:47.669
there was this sort of sadness there.
00:10:47.889 --> 00:10:51.519
Being able to sit with that and
name it to me is something that with
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:55.989
medication, ADHD medication, that can
be the tipping point where maybe the
00:10:55.989 --> 00:10:58.089
brain's online more, but not always.
00:10:58.260 --> 00:10:59.640
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: I
think that's a really powerful,
00:10:59.790 --> 00:11:00.840
powerful part to put in here.
00:11:00.855 --> 00:11:03.645
Talking about being on a good
medication regimen, it's like,
00:11:03.945 --> 00:11:06.885
I think that allows you to have
less armor walking through life.
00:11:06.915 --> 00:11:09.945
Like you are able to kinda be a
little bit more vulnerable and I think
00:11:09.945 --> 00:11:14.045
able to, you know, get to a point
where, okay, you know, B+ work that
00:11:14.045 --> 00:11:17.955
I finished today is better than A+
work that doesn't get finished ever.
00:11:18.385 --> 00:11:19.975
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Those
are the hurdles, the real
00:11:19.975 --> 00:11:22.435
life hurdles in the moment.
00:11:23.015 --> 00:11:24.065
That we face.
00:11:24.065 --> 00:11:25.685
When are we gonna be challenged?
00:11:25.685 --> 00:11:28.085
So I think of two planes.
00:11:28.085 --> 00:11:29.225
There's two planes.
00:11:29.225 --> 00:11:35.495
One is in isolation by ourselves, and one
is around other people because especially
00:11:35.495 --> 00:11:39.485
if there's a group dynamic reinforcement
or survival strategy, we have this
00:11:39.635 --> 00:11:43.955
sixth sense of reading the room as long
as we're not on the autism spectrum.
00:11:44.285 --> 00:11:48.785
But that aside, we're gonna have
this, this intuition in terms of
00:11:48.785 --> 00:11:51.485
social reciprocity that is so natural.
00:11:51.485 --> 00:11:56.040
It's, you know, you could argue it's
just instantaneous and electromagnetic
00:11:56.040 --> 00:12:00.600
and whatever else you wanna say because
if you look on EEGs of people, when they
00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:02.160
get in a group, we get more lizard brain.
00:12:02.370 --> 00:12:06.120
You know, we're, we're social creatures,
so we're gonna be operating out of
00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:10.460
a place of automatic instantaneous
interactions, bouncing off each other.
00:12:10.640 --> 00:12:13.430
And if your medication's not on
board, then you have no frontal lobe.
00:12:13.580 --> 00:12:16.865
So with the frontal lobe, we
might have just a little bit
00:12:16.865 --> 00:12:19.925
more ability to just stop and sit
and say, what's going on here?
00:12:19.985 --> 00:12:21.815
Instead of just flying into action.
00:12:22.115 --> 00:12:25.535
And it could be that, wait a minute,
I feel really, really stressed out.
00:12:25.535 --> 00:12:29.975
So many people say, I just started my
medication, but I'm really stressed out.
00:12:29.975 --> 00:12:31.295
It's like, well, what did you do before?
00:12:31.295 --> 00:12:32.765
It's like, oh, I punched
a hole in the wall.
00:12:32.765 --> 00:12:34.085
I threw something across the room.
00:12:34.365 --> 00:12:38.835
That's the bottom line is
it starts and it ends there.
00:12:39.195 --> 00:12:43.545
This is what I feel, the end, that's
it and all emotions are normal.
00:12:43.545 --> 00:12:48.225
So if we can say, this is the
emotion, it is normal, and that is it.
00:12:48.225 --> 00:12:52.265
But the emotional center, if we can
start there and say, this is what I feel,
00:12:52.265 --> 00:12:54.605
I think that's a powerful first step.
00:12:54.687 --> 00:12:55.137
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: well said.
00:12:55.437 --> 00:12:57.927
I completely agree with that.
00:12:57.927 --> 00:13:00.477
And I think again, too, I liked
hearing, just like putting the brakes
00:13:00.477 --> 00:13:03.957
on things , and sitting with that
discomfort and the anxiety and the stress
00:13:03.957 --> 00:13:05.217
and then, you know, reflecting on it.
00:13:05.217 --> 00:13:07.908
Where's that coming from,
why am I feeling that?
00:13:07.908 --> 00:13:12.798
How do you peel that dance of trauma
and ADHD and all of the other things
00:13:12.798 --> 00:13:15.378
that are co-occurring and I think that
that is, like you said, a great first
00:13:15.378 --> 00:13:17.478
step to really to begin that process.
00:13:17.608 --> 00:13:17.818
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:13:17.818 --> 00:13:22.438
Well, the one thing is I think when
we identify where we are or like we're
00:13:22.438 --> 00:13:24.508
in this place, okay, we're triggered.
00:13:24.588 --> 00:13:28.158
Another way of putting it is our
inner child is jumping out at us.
00:13:28.308 --> 00:13:31.518
It could be a version or a
mode of ourselves, we could
00:13:31.518 --> 00:13:32.688
call what we want to call it.
00:13:32.928 --> 00:13:38.008
But when we, identify it, then we
might be able to say, okay, now what?
00:13:38.068 --> 00:13:40.198
Especially if we've done the
work when we're not triggered.
00:13:40.703 --> 00:13:46.683
What I would say is in regards to
perfectionism, and you mentioned
00:13:46.683 --> 00:13:48.183
OCD, I'm really glad you did.
00:13:48.513 --> 00:13:51.153
The way I conceptualize
obsessive compulsive disorder
00:13:51.153 --> 00:13:52.743
is very much cognitive.
00:13:53.043 --> 00:13:58.083
So something our mind does in response to
the nervous system is think you ever seen
00:13:58.083 --> 00:14:00.513
MacGyver or Walter White in Breaking Bad?
00:14:00.513 --> 00:14:04.713
He got that survival mode in
and bang, it was great, right?
00:14:04.803 --> 00:14:07.233
So that's him using his
mind under pressure.
00:14:07.473 --> 00:14:11.973
But the problem is, is that our mind is
racing because we're not calm in the way
00:14:11.973 --> 00:14:15.423
we used to be there's now a better way
of doing things and our body knows it.
00:14:15.723 --> 00:14:16.233
So.
00:14:16.708 --> 00:14:20.068
If we realize and identify we're
triggered, we might be able to say.
00:14:20.478 --> 00:14:21.558
Not the time to think.
00:14:21.588 --> 00:14:25.458
'cause if we are thinking then
we're not thinking clearly.
00:14:25.578 --> 00:14:29.178
So this is why we say come to your senses
because you're not thinking clearly.
00:14:29.178 --> 00:14:32.548
It's 'cause our nervous
system is focused on survival.
00:14:32.548 --> 00:14:35.038
So we have a limited
view, it's right here.
00:14:35.128 --> 00:14:36.808
And we can't see outside of ourselves.
00:14:36.858 --> 00:14:39.798
I think it was like 2014, my
wife and I were coming back from
00:14:39.798 --> 00:14:43.038
Florida and a panic attack on the
airplane just totally lost my mind.
00:14:43.428 --> 00:14:44.148
And, uh.
00:14:44.443 --> 00:14:48.253
After it was over, it was really
during takeoff, it leveled out and it
00:14:48.253 --> 00:14:51.313
was all gone and just shame came in.
00:14:51.673 --> 00:14:55.543
But it's just amazing how like
our emotions or how we experience
00:14:55.543 --> 00:14:59.083
them can can shift and change
but if we can catch ourselves and
00:14:59.083 --> 00:15:01.063
do something different and say
00:15:01.113 --> 00:15:05.723
not the time right now or, what am
I holding is a good one, you know?
00:15:05.823 --> 00:15:08.743
And having those strategies
let me go in the other room.
00:15:08.743 --> 00:15:09.763
Let me write something down.
00:15:09.763 --> 00:15:11.743
But there are times when it won't work.
00:15:11.743 --> 00:15:13.393
Our mind just wants to stay on.
00:15:13.423 --> 00:15:16.273
Especially if you have that hyper
focus and you have solved problems.
00:15:16.273 --> 00:15:19.993
There's a problem that we may have
actually solved in our mind as a child
00:15:20.023 --> 00:15:23.123
that, problem that was unsolvable,
we may have solved in our mind.
00:15:23.123 --> 00:15:24.053
If you can think about that.
00:15:24.383 --> 00:15:24.923
So.
00:15:25.578 --> 00:15:28.128
When we're coming from that perspective,
it's like, why doesn't it work?
00:15:28.128 --> 00:15:31.118
I've talked to patients and usually
in technical jobs, they're like,
00:15:31.148 --> 00:15:32.468
I need to solve this problem.
00:15:32.468 --> 00:15:34.178
You know, the thinking,
thinking, thinking.
00:15:34.328 --> 00:15:37.928
If we're never able to draw
attention to what do I feel,
00:15:37.938 --> 00:15:40.638
oh, I feel my feet on the floor.
00:15:41.088 --> 00:15:44.298
I breathe in and out, you know,
activate the peripheral nervous system.
00:15:45.108 --> 00:15:47.538
If we're not able to do that,
the mind just gonna keep going.
00:15:47.748 --> 00:15:51.563
'cause the solution is
not outside of ourselves.
00:15:51.743 --> 00:15:53.843
So on we go and on we go and on we go.
00:15:53.933 --> 00:15:57.823
And that's what I'd say is this
pathological manifestation or sort
00:15:57.823 --> 00:16:03.043
of pathophysiology as it gets worse
psychopathology I suppose would be the
00:16:03.043 --> 00:16:08.403
right term, that's kind of the way I
view OCD, being informed by this work.
00:16:08.403 --> 00:16:10.973
You know, working with folks,
whether it's autism or people that
00:16:10.973 --> 00:16:12.473
just cannot turn their mind off.
00:16:12.523 --> 00:16:14.093
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: No,
it get, that gets me thinking too.
00:16:14.093 --> 00:16:17.863
I kind of came up with this little
phrase and I was thinking more externally
00:16:17.863 --> 00:16:22.293
and about systems, but I think hearing
your thoughts on internally all of
00:16:22.293 --> 00:16:25.743
this, I think it's a great phrase that
kind of catches all of it and present
00:16:25.743 --> 00:16:27.303
beats perfect every single time.
00:16:27.693 --> 00:16:29.373
So I think that that works both
00:16:29.577 --> 00:16:30.237
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Oh yeah.
00:16:30.543 --> 00:16:33.003
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: about,
know, being with people that you
00:16:33.003 --> 00:16:38.233
care about and being present, and not
just on these tasks of A+ necessity.
00:16:38.683 --> 00:16:39.573
But I think you're right too.
00:16:39.573 --> 00:16:43.953
I think being internally present for
yourself is extraordinarily powerful and
00:16:43.953 --> 00:16:46.353
I think did a great job summing that up.
00:16:46.353 --> 00:16:48.423
And I think it's important,
you know, just be present.
00:16:48.423 --> 00:16:49.263
You don't have to be perfect.
00:16:49.332 --> 00:16:51.672
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: As a
growing person, you're relying
00:16:51.672 --> 00:16:53.082
on things outside of yourself.
00:16:53.382 --> 00:17:01.212
So you're constantly looking for ways
to continue to feel calm, provided that,
00:17:01.372 --> 00:17:04.522
there's something that is preventing
us from feeling naturally calm.
00:17:04.522 --> 00:17:08.242
And that's the reality, is that
we're never gonna go back to our
00:17:08.272 --> 00:17:12.202
former selves and say, you're
all fixed and be able to do that.
00:17:12.502 --> 00:17:16.192
But what we're able to do is within
ourselves, realize what we didn't get.
00:17:16.192 --> 00:17:20.122
There's a really ironic duality here,
so it's like this acceptance piece
00:17:20.182 --> 00:17:22.642
and understanding we have survived,
00:17:22.642 --> 00:17:27.232
so therefore, as we walk in to the
office meeting or walk into the party
00:17:27.232 --> 00:17:30.652
where you don't know people and you
feel uncomfortable, we might have
00:17:30.652 --> 00:17:36.267
different ways of doing things in the
past, but it's not until we walk in
00:17:36.267 --> 00:17:40.977
and we experience it and we get that
feedback that we understand how we feel.
00:17:41.247 --> 00:17:46.387
So that's tricky when it comes to , what
are our old patterns and old ways.
00:17:46.437 --> 00:17:49.617
As we get that compass centered.
00:17:49.617 --> 00:17:53.487
You know, you sit the compass right here
and you allow it to sort of point you in
00:17:53.487 --> 00:17:58.557
the direction and what's the direction it
starts with how you feel, and then from
00:17:58.557 --> 00:18:03.507
there we have to learn how to navigate
the world based upon that but it's taking
00:18:03.507 --> 00:18:05.997
stock of what we're bringing to the party.
00:18:06.247 --> 00:18:09.217
Because if we do care about other
people, then we wanna make sure
00:18:09.217 --> 00:18:10.987
that we can do the best job.
00:18:10.987 --> 00:18:13.147
We wanna make sure we can
live up to these promises.
00:18:13.147 --> 00:18:13.847
Does that make sense?
00:18:13.847 --> 00:18:14.057
Hit the
00:18:14.057 --> 00:18:14.517
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
nail on the head.
00:18:14.517 --> 00:18:17.638
And I think that kind of leads me
to my final concluding thought.
00:18:17.638 --> 00:18:21.148
I think we've done a really
good job, kind of in summation
00:18:21.302 --> 00:18:21.582
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: A+!
00:18:22.418 --> 00:18:25.018
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: A+ will
be kind of integrated in that so I think
00:18:25.617 --> 00:18:27.677
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC:
Oh, oh, let's say B+.
00:18:27.838 --> 00:18:28.798
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
Well, they'll both be part of this.
00:18:28.798 --> 00:18:33.253
So I think just hearing this, like
the bravest thing that an ADHD adult
00:18:33.253 --> 00:18:36.953
can do, and especially a person
that might be more, subject to those
00:18:36.953 --> 00:18:41.683
perfectionistic traits and such, so
accepting the B+ work in one hour
00:18:42.203 --> 00:18:47.273
is gonna be far more ideal than A++
work that you've spent 10 hours on.
00:18:47.273 --> 00:18:50.303
while that perfectionism might've
saved you in third grade, eighth
00:18:50.303 --> 00:18:54.835
grade, maybe even in college, it's
robbing your child, effectively just
00:18:54.835 --> 00:18:56.665
sabotaging your ability to be present.
00:18:56.875 --> 00:18:57.775
I think it's important.
00:18:57.775 --> 00:19:01.075
It's time to retire your armor,
your 8-year-old self is safe now
00:19:01.075 --> 00:19:04.555
and those strategies that were
important then to kind of mitigate
00:19:04.555 --> 00:19:06.355
it are actually, hang them up.
00:19:06.445 --> 00:19:09.115
I think there's, there's, there's
other ways that, that they're go about
00:19:09.115 --> 00:19:12.355
things at this juncture that gonna let
you find that presence and find that
00:19:12.355 --> 00:19:13.680
balance in life and sustainability.
00:19:14.296 --> 00:19:16.726
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: I wonder if
there's other mental health clinicians
00:19:16.726 --> 00:19:17.986
out there listening right now.
00:19:17.986 --> 00:19:19.066
I'd love to hear from you.
00:19:19.636 --> 00:19:21.801
Compass Point Institute, YouTube channel.
00:19:22.486 --> 00:19:23.836
Gonna work on the call to action.
00:19:24.076 --> 00:19:28.036
But nonetheless, , if we had to survive in
this way, I think there's an interesting
00:19:28.036 --> 00:19:33.616
duality where a lot of us with these
perfectionistic tendencies or childhood
00:19:33.646 --> 00:19:36.076
trauma wounds, although it can be
00:19:36.076 --> 00:19:39.856
really detrimental and it's not
to say that everyone is gonna be
00:19:39.856 --> 00:19:41.876
able to be successful in life.
00:19:41.876 --> 00:19:46.436
You know, survival is happening outside
of us and if we adapt and we learn and
00:19:46.436 --> 00:19:51.266
we grow, and we only get one little
part of this puzzle, which is how do we
00:19:51.306 --> 00:19:52.866
respond, what do we do automatically?
00:19:52.866 --> 00:19:54.156
You know, how does our life unfold?
00:19:54.396 --> 00:19:57.996
But for many of us, have a higher
degree, you know, I've known lawyers a
00:19:57.996 --> 00:20:02.816
lot of my patients are higher academic
positions or maybe success, whatever
00:20:02.816 --> 00:20:04.976
society tells us, "you should be happy".
00:20:05.096 --> 00:20:06.956
And that's the really interesting irony.
00:20:06.956 --> 00:20:08.366
All that glitters isn't gold.
00:20:08.666 --> 00:20:11.126
But if we're able to heal, you
know, this survival, it can
00:20:11.126 --> 00:20:12.506
actually do wonderful things.
00:20:12.506 --> 00:20:16.346
And I think when we are able to reduce
the negative impact, then we can
00:20:16.346 --> 00:20:19.436
see, oh, okay, all the cool things,
you know, it's like all the, all the
00:20:19.436 --> 00:20:22.496
good things about our life story,
we wouldn't have it any other way.
00:20:22.496 --> 00:20:26.701
I think that's a really like
interesting uniformity among everyone.
00:20:26.701 --> 00:20:29.851
Once we heal, we're like, well, we
wouldn't want in any other way 'cause
00:20:29.851 --> 00:20:35.821
we have a new sort of set of eyes on
what brought us here and the takeaway,
00:20:35.821 --> 00:20:39.001
and I realize this, this is like
kind of the big one for me, which is
00:20:39.271 --> 00:20:40.981
perfect, is the enemy of the good.
00:20:41.788 --> 00:20:43.873
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Old
adage, that still holds as true as ever.
00:20:49.223 --> 00:20:51.873
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: For a certain point
in my life, probably early twenties, mind
00:20:51.873 --> 00:20:54.993
you, my high school GPA was I think 1.5
00:20:54.993 --> 00:20:55.533
or something.
00:20:55.533 --> 00:20:59.733
I just pretty much barely graduated
and having like no direction and then
00:20:59.733 --> 00:21:03.423
finally in my early twenties, finding
this field and really getting into that.
00:21:03.423 --> 00:21:07.263
But there was this, for me, it wasn't
, oh, I need to be a perfectionist.
00:21:07.263 --> 00:21:12.713
It was like, well, now at this
point there's nothing left to lose.
00:21:13.163 --> 00:21:17.453
But in that, when are you gonna actually
say to yourself what achievement,
00:21:17.453 --> 00:21:21.533
what milestone, what thing outside of
yourself is gonna say, oh, you did it.
00:21:22.028 --> 00:21:23.678
You know, what is that all about?
00:21:23.858 --> 00:21:27.308
Because sitting here at my desk,
at my private practice, having an
00:21:27.308 --> 00:21:31.838
advanced degree, you know, that was
when it hit me like, uh oh, I don't
00:21:31.838 --> 00:21:33.368
think it's gonna be this thing.
00:21:33.638 --> 00:21:35.588
I don't think it's
gonna be this milestone.
00:21:35.588 --> 00:21:37.058
I don't think it's gonna be this weekend.
00:21:37.058 --> 00:21:38.528
I don't think it's gonna be this thing.
00:21:38.768 --> 00:21:39.233
You know what I mean?
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:40.349
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC: Yeah,
00:21:40.358 --> 00:21:40.418
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: Yeah.
00:21:40.418 --> 00:21:41.348
It's here now.
00:21:41.438 --> 00:21:41.828
Yeah.
00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:43.619
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
really great place to end it.
00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:47.939
I think important, you know, once you
actually meet that milestone, if you're
00:21:47.939 --> 00:21:52.169
not able to sit there, recognize and enjoy
and give yourself credit and grace for,
00:21:52.169 --> 00:21:56.429
for getting there, that's an indicator
that you know, probably work to be done.
00:21:58.533 --> 00:22:00.393
Jon Murphy, PMHNP-BC: This is
the Compass Point Institute.
00:22:00.513 --> 00:22:04.083
Check us out on YouTube anywhere
you listen to podcasts, just
00:22:04.083 --> 00:22:04.983
come along for the ride.
00:22:04.983 --> 00:22:06.753
Thank you, and we'll see you next time.
00:22:06.804 --> 00:22:07.924
James Kennedy, APRN, PMHNP-BC:
See you next time.
