Climate Acceptance Studios: Welcome to the Communicating Earth podcast by Climate Acceptance Studios. This is the podcast by and for climate and nature communicators. So I first met Rob Cooper, like I meet everybody nowadays on LinkedIn. And I have to say I was impressed. He seemed to really know what he was doing. I then bumped into him again at the Blue Earth Forum. And after that discovered that we had the same idea, which was to launch a podcast. but we're doing it in very different ways. So I'm very excited to have him on today. He's got a law degree, he's been a cadet, a teacher, a copywriter, a consultant, but most importantly of all, I'm excited to have him on because I think he's one of the smartest guys and operators on LinkedIn. I've certainly learned a lot from him and I think that maybe you can too. And so Rob, welcome.
Rob Cooper: Thank you very much Tom for having me.
Climate Acceptance Studios: My pleasure, my pleasure. Well, we start off with a bit of identification. So do you consider yourself an activist, a campaigner, an advocate, an environmentalist or something else?
Rob Cooper: I would say of those I'm an environmentalist.
Climate Acceptance Studios: And what does that mean to you? What's an environmentalist?
Rob Cooper: I think fundamentally someone who cares about the environment, but I would kind of bolt on to that someone who cares about it and does something about their care, some kind of action that they take. ⁓ And yeah, that's what I would consider myself.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Because I think you've had a quite sort similar career to me, haven't you? There was like a moment when you decided to devote your life to it. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Rob Cooper: Yes. Yeah, so it was, it really was an over almost an overnight thing, although the seeds were kind of sown a lot, a lot younger, I grew up in the Lake District, which is a national park in the UK. And my mum is quite a big nature lover. And I was a teacher for two years, secondary school teacher and left that because I was looking for something more entrepreneurial and found myself doing an Ayahuasca retreat, which is a psychedelic in Bolivia at the end of 2022. it, you know, maybe it's a bit, it's, it's a bit cliche to say that, you know, you go on one of these retreats and it kind of changes your life, but in my case, it actually did. And I, and I had one One night in particular where I I had this very, very visceral feeling that nothing else that I do with my work on my time matters if the planet that we live on isn't healthy and can't sustain ⁓ And that was very weird to wake up with that like, shit, I need to do something about this, but I don't know what. And I almost know nothing about the And that kind of triggered trying to find a source of information. that I could kind of use to inform what I should do. ⁓ And joined a startup with two others for a year, did three or four other things, and then eventually have happened upon ⁓ starting a podcast like you. that's where I've really settled and I'm enjoying it a lot. I only started it last August, but I feel like... it's the kind of it's the thing that I would like to do for the next five or ten years plus ⁓ and that's what I was looking for.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, very good. Yeah. My moment came in 2019. I watched a video online late at night. I don't know whether that's the same as taking a psychedelic drug in the middle of South America, but maybe it's my equivalent in the moment of, I've always known about it, but it was the thing that sort of spurred me and triggered me to action. So we've both taken action, like we've done radical career changes, the pair of us. Why do you think there are not more people or at least enough people doing what we're doing, taking action?
Rob Cooper: How's it? All right. Hmm. I mean, I would first, I think it's worth questioning, whether action needs to look like this. This is, you know, leaving your job and working on it full time is like quite radical action. And I think like any bell curve, there's going to be people on the end who are like, you really toeing the line, but most people in the middle actually don't need to take such radical, like throw everything up in the air kind of action. And I think, you know, to your point, why don't more people do it? ⁓ Cause it's hard. ⁓ And it's not, you know, it's not what a lot of people want. Like a lot of people don't want, it's not a priority. And I think that's completely fine. I think in a lot of ways, working for yourself or entrepreneurship ⁓ is kind of glorified. ⁓ And it really isn't a good path for. know lot of people and I think ⁓ you know each person can have a lot of impact in their own life without you know quitting their job or you know moving away from their family you can you can have a lot of impact without ⁓ kind of throwing everything up in the air.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So your tale of action specifically, I think we're gonna discuss today because in each podcast, we always have a tale of action to inspire action. That's what the whole principle of this podcast is based around. So I think yours is this podcast, isn't it? So when did the idea to do a podcast first start to germinate in your brain?
Rob Cooper: Um, it's a bit inception like talking about a podcast on a podcast. Um, I think the idea first germinated, uh, really I was 16 when I was like, where I read a book called, um, how to speak to your daughter about the economy or something like that. And it, I was really interested in it. Um, but I wanted to learn more about that topic. So I typed it into Google or YouTube or something and Tim Ferriss's podcast came up and he was like the OG podcaster and still is. Like first person to reach a billion downloads. Like he's done it for decades, I think. Well before it was video. And between sort of 16 and 22, I listened to hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of podcasts, a lot of his. And I think it gave me like, I would call it like the knowledge cartilage, like you can learn the bones of something, you can study economics and that's like the bone. But then the cartilage is all the interesting little bits that sit around it that are like exceptions to the rule or the interesting bits. And for me, that's like the really interesting part. And you know, you can go and learn what climate change is and what you can do in a day doing carbon literacy.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay.
Rob Cooper: but like that's like the bone. And for me, always, like I was looking for like the knowledge cartilage that sits around it and supports it. And I was after this ayahuasca retreat looking for that where I could just listen for hours and hours and hours to learn lots. And I didn't find, there was some places that I felt I could go and find that like Simon Clark's YouTube channel or. the Outrage and Optimism podcast or there are definitely sources and there are more now than there were then but I was still looking for something that was like really bingeable that I wanted to just listen and listen and couldn't help myself but consuming the information and a lot of it felt like it was made for a very expert, already engaged, ⁓ knowledgeable, high brow audience and I wanted something that spoke to me without me needing a PhD in 15 years of expertise. So I think that's what you asked. That was a real tangent, I think. But yeah, that's why I started it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: No, no, that's really, that's really interesting. He says, hosting a podcast that definitely is for a specialist audience of people who are already super duper knowledgeable. So it's a, That's really interesting. Okay, so this idea started to germinate, but when did you actually feel like, okay, this is a go, this is really gonna happen, I wanna do this. And then once you made that decision, what were the steps that you took?
Rob Cooper: No, that's really useful. It... Yeah. Yeah, I felt I want to start a podcast at the end of 2023, start of 20, no, end of 2024, start of 2025. Forget they're in 26 now. So I basically, I was like, I want to start a podcast in 2025 at the start of it. I took a podcast course in January that lasted two, two or three months from reform radio, which is in Manchester where I used to live. And that was like the fundamentals, like what equipment you need, know, the kind of terminology, the blah, blah. But really that wasn't what I needed. I actually just kind of needed a kick up the ass. ⁓ And it took me until, actually, think the first episode came out in September last year. And what really did it was I did a post on LinkedIn, which was something to the effect of.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: I'm thinking of starting a podcast. I don't really know what to call it. What do you think of these names? And, um, there was a, there was a good amount of feedback and, but one person commented, Elliot Coad commented, uh, if you're looking for a guest, uh, let me know. And I, to be honest, I hadn't even thought about who my first guest would be. And then as soon as I'd kind of put it out into the world, I was then like, Oh, you know, now, now I want to do it. And also now, now that first step was clear. Um, so. Yeah, it was really in sort of July, August that the seeds were there of starting it. And then the first episode was last September.
Climate Acceptance Studios: I did exactly the same thing for Communicating Earth. I put a poll out on LinkedIn. It's amazing what you can do when you just ask people. People want to help. That's what I always say. They say to me, but Tom, how did you start this relationship? I said, well, I just asked them. And half the time they say, yes. Okay, so you've got, so this podcast is basically for current communications professionals, mainly working within not-for-profits, but also within for-profits as well.
Rob Cooper: Mmm. You
Climate Acceptance Studios: I have no doubt that amongst the people listening here, there are some who are thinking about starting a podcast on behalf of their organization themselves. So firstly, that course, do think there was a value? Do they need to do that or should they just go for it? What's your advice to comms professional of an international NGO?
Rob Cooper: I think the first question isn't like, do you do it? Cause that's actually the easier question. The real question is why should you do it or why should you not do it? don't, yeah, a few people have asked me, should I start a podcast? And I'm kind of like, it's a bit like asking, should I run a marathon? It's like, well, if you, it's a lot of work. ⁓ And if you want the end goal that's like quite a long way down the road No pun intended then then then yes, but it's it takes a lot of I think for someone who's considering whether to start one I think ⁓ Really getting I think quite a lot of people want to start one just because they want to start one they want they they like listening to podcasts themselves and ⁓ they would like to be kind of in the game. But I think, I always feel it's a real shame if you start a podcast and it only lasts for six months. And I think for me, know, I've been doing it, I don't know, just a bit longer than six months. So the real test will be asking me in five years, I guess, but is like, what objectives do you have from it? What are you trying to get out of it? And being really like honest with yourself about that, is it, ⁓ you know, speaking to potential funders or donors, is it more expertise? Is it getting your brand name out there and kind of ranking those? ⁓ And then really asking how much time do I realistically have to dedicate to this? Because it is quite time consuming and it's not a very, in the short term, it's, I would say,
Climate Acceptance Studios: in the show.
Rob Cooper: In the short term, it's a very inefficient use of time. ⁓ In the long term, it can be very efficient, but if you're looking over the period of like two months, then you're probably much better doing like short form content because you're gonna get, it's gonna be quicker and you get more views. It's less depth and more breadth, but ⁓ I think the why is much more important than the how.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So how long do you spend it on then? You do two episodes a month, don't you? How much time do you spend on it, do reckon?
Rob Cooper: Maybe 15 to 25 hours a week, if I were to roughly estimate ⁓ it. I was spending a lot longer. And this is the other thing is like, do you have time, monetary resources to put into it? I pay an editor to edit the trailer. Before I was doing that, I was editing the trailer, like a trailer would, and by trailer, I mean like, ⁓ a 30 second to one and a half minute clip that kind of gives an overview of the episode. ⁓ I was spending ⁓ a day or a day and a half editing that. So if you've got resources, people who can edit it or you can pay someone to do it, then that's very helpful. ⁓ But I think, yeah, it's... It's a lot of it is the stuff around it, like figuring out which people you want to speak to. If they're quite hard to reach people, then you need to dedicate. You know, I'm, I'm trying to get Deborah Medan on, for example. And like, I've already spent like two hours trying to figure out how I even contact her. I haven't even sent her an email or anything yet. I've just been like, what's her mailing address for her business? Could I send her a letter like.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Hmm. Okay.
Rob Cooper: Does she have an email? You know, does she have a PA that so it depends on who you're trying to reach also and if that person is easy to easy ish to reach that's increasingly what's taking a lot of my time is just trying to reach the person who I who I'm trying to speak to
Climate Acceptance Studios: So Debra Reed, I imagine would have like a speaking engagement booker that will be in some website somewhere, but they'll then demand a cart and they'll demand a fee and it will all be.
Rob Cooper: Yeah, these- That's, read a book called The Third Door. So the front door is like the door that everyone goes in. The second door is the VIP door. And the third door is the back route way that you find that no one else has found. And when I'm thinking about trying to find, like trying to get in contact with someone like her, then I'm thinking about like, what's the third door? Cause I can't pay a speaking fee and...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Yeah.
Rob Cooper: It's not, it doesn't really make sense. Well, it doesn't make sense in terms of audience size. She has hundreds of thousands of eyeballs that she could command if she just went on Instagram. So I've got to offer something up that's like that, those places and people can't. ⁓ and I feel like for me, one of those things is interesting questions and, ⁓ deep research and, figuring out what is this, what does this person care about? what will people care about and how can I ask questions that like most other people don't ask? Because I think if the person finds it enjoyable they're willing to do it even if it doesn't make, you know, utilitarian sense.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Would you say that's your biggest challenge you've been facing with the podcast is tracking down the guests? So what are some of the other challenges that you faced? So we've got, you know, we've just got, we've got time, you know, as an issue. ⁓ What other challenges?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ Yeah, think ⁓ it's difficult knowing, sometimes it can be difficult knowing the direction that you want to take it when there's so many issues to cover. You know, you are speaking to communication professionals, so the scope is narrow, which is helpful for deciding, you know, who you're going to speak to. But then the wider the scope, the harder it is to decide and prioritize. ⁓
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: you can get into a bit of decision, decision paralysis where there's like so many potential people you could speak to. So that's one challenge. ⁓ Another challenge is, I don't like, I want someone to minute for minute come away from an episode of Climate Unfucked with the feeling that, wow, minute for minute, that was really, really time well spent. And because there's so many things in the climate space that have like many sides, both of which can be true, I'm thinking that a good format to test out would be like a panel discussion. podcasts call it like a debate, but I don't really like that idea of, I'm not trying to pitch people against each other. I'm just trying to have a bit like infinite monkey cage. They invite multiple people on who all, yeah.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I love that show.
Rob Cooper: It's really good and they make it really lighthearted. They invite multiple people on who have a different perspective on the same thing. And I think that's really, really important. That's like the cartilage of the knowledge cartilage that I really value myself. And I feel like it's when you hear people addressing other people's opinions about the topic that you really go, ⁓ that's why individual versus collective action like is is contentious or that's why it's difficult to talk about growth in the context of climate or you know all of these like really knotty issues that it's hard you you can't just speak to one person and like have the answer so those are some challenges at the moment
Climate Acceptance Studios: It's like the couch on the Graham Norton show as well. You've got your movie star and you've got your comedian and you've got your... So is there like a sort of strategic heartbeat to the whole show then, or is it evolving? So we've got this, I want to, as a layman, like it's a climate podcast for the layman, I suppose, but is there anything more than that? Have you thought through a strategy or are you just, is it evolving organically?
Rob Cooper: Yeah. Am I winging it? No, I think... I think it's quite difficult because the more that you go down the roads, the further you are away from where you started. And ultimately, if I get more and more expertise in the conversations that I have and the people who I get on, the further it takes me away from the person who hasn't listened to a podcast ever about this before and just kind of wants somewhere to dip their toe in that isn't gonna dive straight into like...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: really, really hardcore stuff. In terms of the, the like, the, the beating heart or the nucleus of it, there isn't, there isn't a, I don't have like a scripture or a constitution to point to. ⁓ I think I, I'm constantly trying to get the balance of accessible but expert. So like, You know, I want to speak to like, I'm organizing one about, kind of panel discussion about, ⁓ emissions inequalities and impact inequalities. Like the statement, why do I have actions even matter if billionaires and their private jets don't give a shit? Like that, that kind of, ⁓ you know, addressing that point, cause it's something I have heard quite a few times. ⁓ and so having a couple of experts who experts who have published papers on that. kind of gets this ⁓ very having the answer and the person with the data, but also the generalist who can kind of like speak to the bigger picture. ⁓ But to answer the question, there isn't a kind of codified strategy ⁓ because it's evolving. didn't even, you know, I thought it was all gonna be one-on-one interviews. And then a few weeks ago, I was like, it'd be really good to have multiple people. Yeah, it's definitely evolving.
Climate Acceptance Studios: But you've definitely got, you know, an attention grabbing brand So talk to me about you know, the actual phrase itself climate unfucked Is it purely just clickbait to get numbers or
Rob Cooper: I mean, it develops from a LinkedIn headline, actually. ⁓ I I liked Mark Manson's book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, there's quite a lot of, know, profanity is quite overused, and you could argue I use it too much, ⁓ that it kind of washes it of its meaning. But I think there is, the kind of meaning behind it is, I feel like it's quite... I read something from Rory Sutherland, is the ex-Algovy CEO, or he led Algovy for an amount of time. He's on loads of podcasts and he was like, something like 99 % of the problem is just not getting ignored. ⁓ And I think in terms of marketing and communication, like especially in the climate world, and especially when you've got a podcast, because there's a lot of podcasts, ⁓ not getting ignored is like the first hurdle and if you get ignored then everything you do after that is useless. So I was really looking for something that would go ⁓ that would almost feel like you have to kind of do a double take and the profanity is you know it kind of they almost they're like juxtaposition you don't expect to hear a know a swear word after the word climate And I think that's, you know, you could get, I taught English, so you could get all English, English languagey about it and how the juxtaposition is a representation of this or that. But no, it's quite, I feel like the name does kind of sum up in a way, like it's quite lighthearted. It's supposed to be accessible. It's also quite serious. You know, it's a serious topic. So it's kind of got those two sides. ⁓ And I just found when I was testing out the idea, when I said it to people, they were like, ⁓ you know, it got a reaction. ⁓ So yeah, you could say it's click bait, but ⁓ I think click baits only click bait if you don't follow through.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So you're obviously a consumer of lots of climate and nature commons in a variety of forms. Do you think that our sector, if you're going to define it as a sector, should be playing more of these games, should be being more, dare I say it, risque or living on the edge? Because I think there is, obviously we've got on our side the science and there's a real desire to say, look, look, here's the problem, here's the graph, take it seriously. Indeed, the podcast that we're going to release next week, which has also been a guest of yours, a lovely and gorgeous Phil Corbell, me and Nathaniel, my partner and producer, were debating about including a cuddly toy in the trailer. And I was sort of against it because, yeah, because it's like, we want to be serious, we're a serious whatever. And like, know, Nathaniel quite rightly sort of talked me down. So I'm all, I myself am fighting this, right? You know, so.
Rob Cooper: Pedro.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Does there need to be more controversy, playfulness or what have you? Unseriousness within climate comms as a whole, you think?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I would say that I have a podcast which kind of guns at that angle. But I definitely, I think if you, if you to step back, if you laid out all of the climate comms that have happened over the past 25 years, and I am by no means an expert on understanding all of the dimensions of that, but from what I understand, if you were to group it on an X and Y as like fun, and like serious or something, then it would all be in the not so fun and very serious quadrant. And in terms of what people will consume and listen to, are, ⁓ you know, most people, it depends who you've, really obviously depends who you're trying to speak to. If you're trying to speak to other professionals, then making it, you know, goofy. I mean, I think I was watching, ⁓ ⁓ King Charles's speech to the Congress that he did, he's in the US at the moment doing a of diplomatic trip, I guess you'd call it. And I think, I feel like that, is that what it's called? Is that what he's calling it?
Climate Acceptance Studios: PR for democracy, he says. That's his mission statement apparently. He's there to advocate for democracy. But there we go.
Rob Cooper: Yeah, but say what you will. mean, there's lots of things to say on both sides of that, know, royal family, Trump, there's loads of things to say, but I think one thing that I think he's really, really got right. And I, I think his good inspiration in this, in this sense is he's, he's, he's meeting people where they are, where they are at, I, ⁓ it's not just starting straight off with the serious, ⁓ you know, ⁓ some like, this is what we need to do or, you know, this is the, this is our national policy on this. He's finding common ground. And I think, I think there needs to be more finding common ground. And if that common ground is ⁓ humor, then that's common ground for almost everyone. That's like a universal language. And it's something, it's one I really enjoy and I want to lean into more. ⁓ So to answer your question, does it need more? more unseriousness. think Simon Clarke put like called it the choir of climate voices and I think I would argue There needs to be more voices in the choir that are not just the you know the deep bass the the kind of we all screwed you know it needs to be a bit more like ⁓ this these are kind of ⁓ light-hearted ⁓ ⁓ like fun parts of it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, so we're now going on to the quickfire round. Although I'm calling it the medium fire round sometimes because some of my guests can't do quickfire. But you're young and with a nimble brain, Rob. So I've got hope as probably our youngest guest so far that you're gonna really go for it and give us our social media sound bites. So here we go. World Association, what's the first word that comes to mind when I say climate?
Rob Cooper: Okay. I'll try as best as I can. ⁓ wow. Okay, right, wow. Humans.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Who's your greatest inspiration when it comes to people communicating the climate?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ Kevin Anderson. That changes. I'm trying not to give anything longer than a short answer.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good. Kevin Hansen's amazing. Do you have a favourite book or a movie or a TV show? Just one that could, that sort of inspires you. Hey, have they got climate in the Big Bang Theory?
Rob Cooper: No, I mean, you said inspires me and I feel like that it's not directly. I think there's a lot of point in taking things that aren't directly connected. You know, they talk about science and they make it fun.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, I can see that. Very good, very good. What's your favorite communications channel?
Rob Cooper: YouTube. Is that an answer?
Climate Acceptance Studios: And what do you, of course, yeah, what do you think is the most effective communications channel when it comes to climate?
Rob Cooper: Okay. visual video.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Do you have a favourite stat or fact about the climate and nature crisis?
Rob Cooper: Ooh, the 10 % wealthiest in the world are responsible for 64 % of emissions.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, yes, the climate crisis is not a crisis of human population. Is there one piece of myth or disinformation that infuriates you more than any other that you wish could be eradicated from the earth? What climate myth you wish could be gone?
Rob Cooper: that if we just ⁓ shout about it louder, ⁓ that it will all be fixed. I'm really trying not to give any longer answers. I feel it feels incredibly against my nature not to qualify what I'm saying, but anyway, I'm just trying to say it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Interesting answer, very good. No, this is good. This is good gut reactions. Like what's your number one source of climate information?
Rob Cooper: Carbon Brief.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good. And finally, do you have your own go-to favourite analogy or metaphor for explaining climate change?
Rob Cooper: I would... I love the one that... this is going to be a little bit longer, but collective and individual action can be ⁓ represented by water flowing down a hill. That if you're trying to get water to flow up the hill, it's not going to happen. You need to change the gradient. And the conditions, the collective or the government and the policy is the... is the angle and the gradient of the hill and then what people do is the the the routes that the water find. ⁓ That is Simon Clarke's, it's not mine, I stole it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, I love that. I've never heard that, that's brilliant. Well, there we go. The quick fire round is over now so you can relax back into your qualifications, Rob.
Rob Cooper: Mm. ⁓ god. Not that I have too many of those.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So qualify away, okay. ⁓ All right, so let's just return very quickly to finish off with the podcast. So ⁓ you're up and running, you're confident that you're, you see you've done how many episodes now, is it 12?
Rob Cooper: No, it's ⁓ 17th came out this week. Yeah. So I think I'm-
Climate Acceptance Studios: 17, wow. And is it sustainable?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ No pun intended. ⁓ Yes, it ⁓ is. I think for a while I was hell bent on going to every week, but I decided that that wouldn't be sustainable. ⁓ I'm, yeah, I'm trying to, think thinking of it as like an ultra ultra ultra marathon ⁓ and how can I make sure I don't wear out my running shoes in the first 5k. ⁓ That's how I'm trying to do it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Do you get any sense of the impact you've had so far? Is there any sense at all there?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ almost completely unaware. ⁓ If maybe negligible, maybe some, ⁓ yeah, I don't really know. I, yeah, I don't know. I always find it difficult when, you know, what I do sits in a very broad web of a lot of other people and.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Bye.
Rob Cooper: You it's like climate change, isn't it? You can't just link one, you can't draw a causal line.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Yeah, I so empathise in our line of work, making video content. The video that we make is just one piece within the whole lattice work of stuff that our clients is doing. So it's always quite a challenge to work out and measure what the impact is beyond obvious things like shares and likes and numbers of listeners. Okay, but as I say, one of the reasons I'm excited to have you on is we are...
Rob Cooper: Hmm. Yeah.
Climate Acceptance Studios: speaking to clients all the time who have thought about or indeed just launched ⁓ a podcast themselves. What are your overall learnings so far that you can maybe share with our audience?
Rob Cooper: it doesn't have to be as hard as you think it does. you can just dip your toe in the water and I mean, Riverside, which we're recording on now gives you two hours for free. So if you think that if, if you have this idea, I think I'd quite like to do a podcast that sounds nice, then just find someone, someone who you would actually like to publish an episode with, not just an easy one. So you've ticked the box and go through the motion of like, okay, we're going to contact this person, get an answer, research them, set up a time, have a conversation, edit it, put it out there, and then just see what happens. I ⁓ think obviously often the bigger the organization, the more ⁓ distance there is between the thought and the action. And actually sometimes to know whether the action is the right thing, just decreasing that as much as possible. ⁓ So, Yeah, I think if you're if you're not sure do do one ⁓ and see what you think and then and then reduce that whatever you think the the rose tintedness of the glasses reduce that by like 20 or 30 percent and then you you probably have how you'll feel that sort of episode 10, you know plus a load of other hours and and time. ⁓ I think that's quite a good I I mean, I absolutely loved the first episode that I did I came away being like, I love this. I could do this like for like 20 years and you know, and then reduce that by 20 % when, you a string of people have said no and then you're struggling for a guest and then it's the reality and I still enjoy it a lot. So that's like quite a test.
Climate Acceptance Studios: I felt like I didn't get the swing of it until about episode seven or eight and I was finally relaxing into my voice and how do I pitch it tonally and all that sort of stuff.
Rob Cooper: Yeah. ⁓ I wouldn't say it. ⁓ that wasn't as like, ⁓ I think I'm it's it was particularly good or it was just, you know, that moment where you that someone called them red threads, like you have all these threads going through your life. And then when you find like a moment or 10 minutes or an hour or whatever, where you're like, you flow state, you know, you're in a flow state, then that's like, that's like the metal detector running over the beach that beeps and then you like, ⁓ I need to
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: I need to dig wherever this is. If you get that, I mean, I'm speaking about it from like a personal passion point of view, not a strategic company decision. So if you're making it as a strategic company decision, then you know, how much you're in a flow state on the recording of the episode maybe isn't the biggest factor. But yeah, that's what it has been for me.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Well, I've certainly enjoyed it. And obviously there'll be a link to the podcast in the show notes. So please check it out and indeed go back into the back catalog. There's lots of great chats in there. A broad range of opinion and people. Okay, so for the final stage, I wanna just go on to sort of more general opinions. However, ⁓ if you don't mind, Rob, I am like super impressed with your work on LinkedIn. you're certainly better than me and I would love to basically use this as an excuse to learn some stuff off you for the next 10 minutes. ⁓ so, because you keep, you do these posts and they get such great engagements and I wonder why. So, mean, LinkedIn, climate comms, you know, but what do you see as like the near term future?
Rob Cooper: Of course.
Climate Acceptance Studios: for climate communications, maybe LinkedIn specifically and climate comms. What do you think is coming up? What are the trends within it?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ this... Me answering this makes me sound like some kind of expert fortune teller who's like got the finger on the pulse and I feel like I don't have as... I have as little clue as anyone else. I shared guy...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Well, okay, here's a related question then. Like to what extent are you a slave to the algorithm or did you just do your stuff? Do you spend any time second guessing and tracking what the changes to the algorithm are?
Rob Cooper: I think if someone who's being really successful, I think firstly, the phrase slave to the algorithm is obviously overly hyperbolic. We're all slaves to many, algorithms, whether it's what your Sainsbury's shop suggests that you buy. So I've accepted that I am a slave to the algorithm and it's just how much of a slave I am accepting that I am. ⁓ Sounds a very weird sentence to say. I am a slave to the algorithm in the sense that, well, let me flip that coin over and say what's on the other side. On the other side of that statement is I look at what's working from other people, try to reverse engineer it and try to do a bit more of that. That's what, and that is learning the algorithm because that is looking at something that has been successful on the platform. So I have a link that I click that I've saved of like five or 10 people whose posts qualification. It really matters what you care about when you are like looking at your metrics of success on LinkedIn. Cause for most people, I was coaching people on LinkedIn up until fairly recently on how to get business from the platform, know, earn money from it. And the things that make my posts go poppity poop and have lots of likes and impressions are not the same thing that gets someone a client. So I think it's really, really important not to conflate some, like my post can get 700 likes, but no one books a sales call, but Frieda's post gets 10 likes and she books three sales calls. So it's really important to like, really question and the vanity metrics are called that for a reason aren't they? Like they feed your ego and your vanity but ultimately if it's not helping your business outcomes or whatever outcomes you're looking for then there's no point chasing them. ⁓ I qualified it so much I can't remember what your question was.
Climate Acceptance Studios: No, well, I think we've now appreciated that you're definitely a slave to the algorithm, Rob. ⁓ So, specifically in terms of climate unfucked though, do you ever follow the actual science of climate communication? Do you ever read any of those studies or reports?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, a self-confessed slave. Yes, I'm trying to, ⁓ so I had Dr. Elaine Lertzman on who's a climate psychologist who, know, her specialist field is in how to communicate climate effectively. It's something that I'm very fascinated in and I've spoken to other people about, you know, and this is something that's... ⁓ that's kind of a bit of a, is it called a red herring? The thing that might go viral on a platform is often not the thing that is effective, like psychologically. like debunking is a perfect example. Like if you just go, this is the thing that they say, and this is why it's wrong. Like nobody who watches that is going to, and who really believes the first thing is going to have their mind changed by you simply telling them that they're wrong for this, this, this, and this reason. Because, well, from this, yeah. I'm not gonna explain the psychology, but so I try to not, and that's sometimes it's a bit annoying because you feel like you could kind of get more, know, like I could create short form content, for example, that's maybe ignoring the principles of climate communication or effective change making communication, but that would do really well. So yeah, I try to listen to it. And I think something that I'm trying to do more is an important part of effective climate communication from what I understand is showing your own mistakes and fallibility so that the person who's listening doesn't feel like you and they are on opposite ends of the spectrum. you know, when I had Frank Holloman on talking about diet, was like, you know, my favorite food was a beef burger. which it was for like, I don't know, 22 years. Well, probably not from age zero, maybe say 20 years or whatever. Yeah, so I think really trying to, I think that's really important. Otherwise we're just, you know, we're just really throwing shit at the wall that's not gonna have any chance of sticking.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So when you're promoting climate unfucked on LinkedIn, ⁓ you thinking about, you know, effective climate communication to win minds, hearts and minds whilst you're doing that?
Rob Cooper: Ummm... That's not the first thing I'm thinking of. The first thing that I think of when I'm promoting it is, well, to be honest, it doesn't really get any listens from LinkedIn. So I mean, it might get 20 or something, like, so me promoting it, like, that's not, the things that go viral for me is not related to the podcast. It's other stories of other things. ⁓ And, you know, if I am, promoting something related to the podcast then, you know, it's, I'm aware, basically all my connections on LinkedIn are already in climate and sustainability. I, so it's, you know, at that point it is quite a kind of, you know, transferring of information. Like this is what this person said and this is what I found interesting. If I was trying to change someone's mind or convince someone of something then. It wouldn't be just a, this is what we talked about on the latest episode because anyone who's doesn't care about that isn't going to be interested by that. ⁓ so I don't try and do that on LinkedIn.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, okay. So you've been speaking to all these amazing people across sector with different tactics. What's your favourite or what's the one message that has popped out, if you could isolate just one message that you've heard across all these different people, that you think the public, so you've positioned yourself as like a member of the public, as a layman doing this podcast. If they could only hear one message from all your guests, what would that message be around the environment?
Rob Cooper: Whoa, that's really hard. ⁓
Climate Acceptance Studios: Or several, mean, doesn't necessarily, what's the first thing that springs to mind?
Rob Cooper: I the first thing is, I think this is, mean, Phil would have probably spoken about this, but I think it really is the place to start, is if there was a message for the public, it's understanding how it affects you and what you care about. Because I think once someone understands how it affects something that they care about on them, then that opens the door. It just cracks it open. There's just like a little shaft of light coming in but the door is then open and that is I've heard I've listened to a couple of episodes of where Katherine Hayhoe has been talking this climate scientist and she does this really cool thing where she'll get someone to say where they're from and then she will say how that place is being impacted by climate change and I think that's really if I mean, we're all tied you know, to a greater or lesser extent to our place where we live or where we're from. So it's a really good thing to start with. But I think that's really effective because I think a lot of ineffective ⁓ communication or climate communication isn't ⁓ taking, isn't putting enough weight and importance behind what does this person who I'm speaking to care about. ⁓ So I think that would be the one thing. What does this person care about? How can I try to meet them where they're at? Which is hard.
Climate Acceptance Studios: And that's more a strategy, isn't it? So do you think that's if the climate communicators of the world were going to focus on one strategy, would that be the strategy or is there a strategy you want to hone in on?
Rob Cooper: I think that would be it. mean, quite a lot of this comes from the conversation with Dr. Renee Lertzman and a good example, like a concrete example, the Department for Transport in London were trying to get more people to cycle. And the way that they did that is that they made billboards. One of the billboards was of a woman, ⁓ in Renee's words, ⁓ riding a bicycle that was festooned with flowers in a sunny park with a big smile on her face. And as Renée said, like anybody who has ever cycled in Britain, and especially London, know that it's a hair-raising, wet, sweaty, quite often unpleasant, ⁓ scary experience that it doesn't look anything or feel anything like that that billboard would imply. And that is a perfect example of like really out of touch and quite ineffective. And it's climate communication in a way, cause it's the way people, you know, get around. It's not directly climate communication, but I think it's a good example. And I think in, you, asked earlier, does it need to be a bit less serious? Her point was that, ⁓ if you made this, this advert, a picture of a woman, absolutely drenched head to toe, having a bust. just gone past and covered her in a muddy puddle that was on the side of the road while she's trying to figure out how to get to the Bakerloo, you know, street line on her phone that she can't put into the holder because it doesn't fit or whatever, then it would meet people where they're at in the sense that anyone who's ridden a bike has had an unpleasant experience like that. And if you haven't ridden a bike, you've definitely seen someone who looks like they're having an awful time because it's pissing it down. So you really understand and you can relate. And then if it were to say something like, you know, it also meets somewhere where they're at in this, in the, in the statement, like, you know, riding a bike in London might always, might not always be pretty, but, ⁓ it gets you there without the congestion or, know, whatever, whatever benefit they're trying to push, ⁓ greener or you get exercise or fresh air or, you know, it's cheaper or whatever, then, then that would, then that's where like the strategy of like meet people where they're at translates into the tactic of, you know, what's these people's direct experience of this thing. And, you know, you can take that any, anything from cycling to energy prices to, ⁓ you know, secondhand clothing to any pick any issue and you know the the billboards that is the like made by PR people in a nice shiny boardroom and the reality of someone who's doing it in real life are often worlds apart and I think the closer that they are the more effective the communication is.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, I quite agree and that's a great ending. So Rob, I appreciate your time. I know that it's an interesting experience for you to be on the other side of the microphone. mean, are there two sides to the microphone? I'm not sure. So ⁓ because this is a podcast about working professionals, what's next on your to-do list? What's next on your calendar today? What have you got coming up?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, it's quite odd. There's many sides. I'm cycling ⁓ to where we're doing a house sit. So I'm looking at where me and my girlfriend are looking looking after a dog. So I'll be cycling there ⁓ with a load of tofu in my bag. I mean, it's very cliche, isn't it?
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, very good. Well, yeah, again, I heartily recommend the Climate Unfucked post and indeed to check out Rob on LinkedIn and his excellent post there. And if we're following his strategy that he is following what people have worked and then he's retrofitting it, I think I'm gonna do the same now. So this is what I've learned today, which is much appreciated. So Rob, thank you so much for your time.
Rob Cooper: Yeah. Nice one, Tom. Thank you very much for having me on.
Rob Cooper: Thank you very much Tom for having me.
Climate Acceptance Studios: My pleasure, my pleasure. Well, we start off with a bit of identification. So do you consider yourself an activist, a campaigner, an advocate, an environmentalist or something else?
Rob Cooper: I would say of those I'm an environmentalist.
Climate Acceptance Studios: And what does that mean to you? What's an environmentalist?
Rob Cooper: I think fundamentally someone who cares about the environment, but I would kind of bolt on to that someone who cares about it and does something about their care, some kind of action that they take. ⁓ And yeah, that's what I would consider myself.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Because I think you've had a quite sort similar career to me, haven't you? There was like a moment when you decided to devote your life to it. Can you tell me a bit more about that?
Rob Cooper: Yes. Yeah, so it was, it really was an over almost an overnight thing, although the seeds were kind of sown a lot, a lot younger, I grew up in the Lake District, which is a national park in the UK. And my mum is quite a big nature lover. And I was a teacher for two years, secondary school teacher and left that because I was looking for something more entrepreneurial and found myself doing an Ayahuasca retreat, which is a psychedelic in Bolivia at the end of 2022. it, you know, maybe it's a bit, it's, it's a bit cliche to say that, you know, you go on one of these retreats and it kind of changes your life, but in my case, it actually did. And I, and I had one One night in particular where I I had this very, very visceral feeling that nothing else that I do with my work on my time matters if the planet that we live on isn't healthy and can't sustain ⁓ And that was very weird to wake up with that like, shit, I need to do something about this, but I don't know what. And I almost know nothing about the And that kind of triggered trying to find a source of information. that I could kind of use to inform what I should do. ⁓ And joined a startup with two others for a year, did three or four other things, and then eventually have happened upon ⁓ starting a podcast like you. that's where I've really settled and I'm enjoying it a lot. I only started it last August, but I feel like... it's the kind of it's the thing that I would like to do for the next five or ten years plus ⁓ and that's what I was looking for.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, very good. Yeah. My moment came in 2019. I watched a video online late at night. I don't know whether that's the same as taking a psychedelic drug in the middle of South America, but maybe it's my equivalent in the moment of, I've always known about it, but it was the thing that sort of spurred me and triggered me to action. So we've both taken action, like we've done radical career changes, the pair of us. Why do you think there are not more people or at least enough people doing what we're doing, taking action?
Rob Cooper: How's it? All right. Hmm. I mean, I would first, I think it's worth questioning, whether action needs to look like this. This is, you know, leaving your job and working on it full time is like quite radical action. And I think like any bell curve, there's going to be people on the end who are like, you really toeing the line, but most people in the middle actually don't need to take such radical, like throw everything up in the air kind of action. And I think, you know, to your point, why don't more people do it? ⁓ Cause it's hard. ⁓ And it's not, you know, it's not what a lot of people want. Like a lot of people don't want, it's not a priority. And I think that's completely fine. I think in a lot of ways, working for yourself or entrepreneurship ⁓ is kind of glorified. ⁓ And it really isn't a good path for. know lot of people and I think ⁓ you know each person can have a lot of impact in their own life without you know quitting their job or you know moving away from their family you can you can have a lot of impact without ⁓ kind of throwing everything up in the air.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So your tale of action specifically, I think we're gonna discuss today because in each podcast, we always have a tale of action to inspire action. That's what the whole principle of this podcast is based around. So I think yours is this podcast, isn't it? So when did the idea to do a podcast first start to germinate in your brain?
Rob Cooper: Um, it's a bit inception like talking about a podcast on a podcast. Um, I think the idea first germinated, uh, really I was 16 when I was like, where I read a book called, um, how to speak to your daughter about the economy or something like that. And it, I was really interested in it. Um, but I wanted to learn more about that topic. So I typed it into Google or YouTube or something and Tim Ferriss's podcast came up and he was like the OG podcaster and still is. Like first person to reach a billion downloads. Like he's done it for decades, I think. Well before it was video. And between sort of 16 and 22, I listened to hundreds, maybe thousands of hours of podcasts, a lot of his. And I think it gave me like, I would call it like the knowledge cartilage, like you can learn the bones of something, you can study economics and that's like the bone. But then the cartilage is all the interesting little bits that sit around it that are like exceptions to the rule or the interesting bits. And for me, that's like the really interesting part. And you know, you can go and learn what climate change is and what you can do in a day doing carbon literacy.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay.
Rob Cooper: but like that's like the bone. And for me, always, like I was looking for like the knowledge cartilage that sits around it and supports it. And I was after this ayahuasca retreat looking for that where I could just listen for hours and hours and hours to learn lots. And I didn't find, there was some places that I felt I could go and find that like Simon Clark's YouTube channel or. the Outrage and Optimism podcast or there are definitely sources and there are more now than there were then but I was still looking for something that was like really bingeable that I wanted to just listen and listen and couldn't help myself but consuming the information and a lot of it felt like it was made for a very expert, already engaged, ⁓ knowledgeable, high brow audience and I wanted something that spoke to me without me needing a PhD in 15 years of expertise. So I think that's what you asked. That was a real tangent, I think. But yeah, that's why I started it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: No, no, that's really, that's really interesting. He says, hosting a podcast that definitely is for a specialist audience of people who are already super duper knowledgeable. So it's a, That's really interesting. Okay, so this idea started to germinate, but when did you actually feel like, okay, this is a go, this is really gonna happen, I wanna do this. And then once you made that decision, what were the steps that you took?
Rob Cooper: No, that's really useful. It... Yeah. Yeah, I felt I want to start a podcast at the end of 2023, start of 20, no, end of 2024, start of 2025. Forget they're in 26 now. So I basically, I was like, I want to start a podcast in 2025 at the start of it. I took a podcast course in January that lasted two, two or three months from reform radio, which is in Manchester where I used to live. And that was like the fundamentals, like what equipment you need, know, the kind of terminology, the blah, blah. But really that wasn't what I needed. I actually just kind of needed a kick up the ass. ⁓ And it took me until, actually, think the first episode came out in September last year. And what really did it was I did a post on LinkedIn, which was something to the effect of.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: I'm thinking of starting a podcast. I don't really know what to call it. What do you think of these names? And, um, there was a, there was a good amount of feedback and, but one person commented, Elliot Coad commented, uh, if you're looking for a guest, uh, let me know. And I, to be honest, I hadn't even thought about who my first guest would be. And then as soon as I'd kind of put it out into the world, I was then like, Oh, you know, now, now I want to do it. And also now, now that first step was clear. Um, so. Yeah, it was really in sort of July, August that the seeds were there of starting it. And then the first episode was last September.
Climate Acceptance Studios: I did exactly the same thing for Communicating Earth. I put a poll out on LinkedIn. It's amazing what you can do when you just ask people. People want to help. That's what I always say. They say to me, but Tom, how did you start this relationship? I said, well, I just asked them. And half the time they say, yes. Okay, so you've got, so this podcast is basically for current communications professionals, mainly working within not-for-profits, but also within for-profits as well.
Rob Cooper: Mmm. You
Climate Acceptance Studios: I have no doubt that amongst the people listening here, there are some who are thinking about starting a podcast on behalf of their organization themselves. So firstly, that course, do think there was a value? Do they need to do that or should they just go for it? What's your advice to comms professional of an international NGO?
Rob Cooper: I think the first question isn't like, do you do it? Cause that's actually the easier question. The real question is why should you do it or why should you not do it? don't, yeah, a few people have asked me, should I start a podcast? And I'm kind of like, it's a bit like asking, should I run a marathon? It's like, well, if you, it's a lot of work. ⁓ And if you want the end goal that's like quite a long way down the road No pun intended then then then yes, but it's it takes a lot of I think for someone who's considering whether to start one I think ⁓ Really getting I think quite a lot of people want to start one just because they want to start one they want they they like listening to podcasts themselves and ⁓ they would like to be kind of in the game. But I think, I always feel it's a real shame if you start a podcast and it only lasts for six months. And I think for me, know, I've been doing it, I don't know, just a bit longer than six months. So the real test will be asking me in five years, I guess, but is like, what objectives do you have from it? What are you trying to get out of it? And being really like honest with yourself about that, is it, ⁓ you know, speaking to potential funders or donors, is it more expertise? Is it getting your brand name out there and kind of ranking those? ⁓ And then really asking how much time do I realistically have to dedicate to this? Because it is quite time consuming and it's not a very, in the short term, it's, I would say,
Climate Acceptance Studios: in the show.
Rob Cooper: In the short term, it's a very inefficient use of time. ⁓ In the long term, it can be very efficient, but if you're looking over the period of like two months, then you're probably much better doing like short form content because you're gonna get, it's gonna be quicker and you get more views. It's less depth and more breadth, but ⁓ I think the why is much more important than the how.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So how long do you spend it on then? You do two episodes a month, don't you? How much time do you spend on it, do reckon?
Rob Cooper: Maybe 15 to 25 hours a week, if I were to roughly estimate ⁓ it. I was spending a lot longer. And this is the other thing is like, do you have time, monetary resources to put into it? I pay an editor to edit the trailer. Before I was doing that, I was editing the trailer, like a trailer would, and by trailer, I mean like, ⁓ a 30 second to one and a half minute clip that kind of gives an overview of the episode. ⁓ I was spending ⁓ a day or a day and a half editing that. So if you've got resources, people who can edit it or you can pay someone to do it, then that's very helpful. ⁓ But I think, yeah, it's... It's a lot of it is the stuff around it, like figuring out which people you want to speak to. If they're quite hard to reach people, then you need to dedicate. You know, I'm, I'm trying to get Deborah Medan on, for example. And like, I've already spent like two hours trying to figure out how I even contact her. I haven't even sent her an email or anything yet. I've just been like, what's her mailing address for her business? Could I send her a letter like.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Hmm. Okay.
Rob Cooper: Does she have an email? You know, does she have a PA that so it depends on who you're trying to reach also and if that person is easy to easy ish to reach that's increasingly what's taking a lot of my time is just trying to reach the person who I who I'm trying to speak to
Climate Acceptance Studios: So Debra Reed, I imagine would have like a speaking engagement booker that will be in some website somewhere, but they'll then demand a cart and they'll demand a fee and it will all be.
Rob Cooper: Yeah, these- That's, read a book called The Third Door. So the front door is like the door that everyone goes in. The second door is the VIP door. And the third door is the back route way that you find that no one else has found. And when I'm thinking about trying to find, like trying to get in contact with someone like her, then I'm thinking about like, what's the third door? Cause I can't pay a speaking fee and...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Yeah.
Rob Cooper: It's not, it doesn't really make sense. Well, it doesn't make sense in terms of audience size. She has hundreds of thousands of eyeballs that she could command if she just went on Instagram. So I've got to offer something up that's like that, those places and people can't. ⁓ and I feel like for me, one of those things is interesting questions and, ⁓ deep research and, figuring out what is this, what does this person care about? what will people care about and how can I ask questions that like most other people don't ask? Because I think if the person finds it enjoyable they're willing to do it even if it doesn't make, you know, utilitarian sense.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Would you say that's your biggest challenge you've been facing with the podcast is tracking down the guests? So what are some of the other challenges that you faced? So we've got, you know, we've just got, we've got time, you know, as an issue. ⁓ What other challenges?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ Yeah, think ⁓ it's difficult knowing, sometimes it can be difficult knowing the direction that you want to take it when there's so many issues to cover. You know, you are speaking to communication professionals, so the scope is narrow, which is helpful for deciding, you know, who you're going to speak to. But then the wider the scope, the harder it is to decide and prioritize. ⁓
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: you can get into a bit of decision, decision paralysis where there's like so many potential people you could speak to. So that's one challenge. ⁓ Another challenge is, I don't like, I want someone to minute for minute come away from an episode of Climate Unfucked with the feeling that, wow, minute for minute, that was really, really time well spent. And because there's so many things in the climate space that have like many sides, both of which can be true, I'm thinking that a good format to test out would be like a panel discussion. podcasts call it like a debate, but I don't really like that idea of, I'm not trying to pitch people against each other. I'm just trying to have a bit like infinite monkey cage. They invite multiple people on who all, yeah.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I love that show.
Rob Cooper: It's really good and they make it really lighthearted. They invite multiple people on who have a different perspective on the same thing. And I think that's really, really important. That's like the cartilage of the knowledge cartilage that I really value myself. And I feel like it's when you hear people addressing other people's opinions about the topic that you really go, ⁓ that's why individual versus collective action like is is contentious or that's why it's difficult to talk about growth in the context of climate or you know all of these like really knotty issues that it's hard you you can't just speak to one person and like have the answer so those are some challenges at the moment
Climate Acceptance Studios: It's like the couch on the Graham Norton show as well. You've got your movie star and you've got your comedian and you've got your... So is there like a sort of strategic heartbeat to the whole show then, or is it evolving? So we've got this, I want to, as a layman, like it's a climate podcast for the layman, I suppose, but is there anything more than that? Have you thought through a strategy or are you just, is it evolving organically?
Rob Cooper: Yeah. Am I winging it? No, I think... I think it's quite difficult because the more that you go down the roads, the further you are away from where you started. And ultimately, if I get more and more expertise in the conversations that I have and the people who I get on, the further it takes me away from the person who hasn't listened to a podcast ever about this before and just kind of wants somewhere to dip their toe in that isn't gonna dive straight into like...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: really, really hardcore stuff. In terms of the, the like, the, the beating heart or the nucleus of it, there isn't, there isn't a, I don't have like a scripture or a constitution to point to. ⁓ I think I, I'm constantly trying to get the balance of accessible but expert. So like, You know, I want to speak to like, I'm organizing one about, kind of panel discussion about, ⁓ emissions inequalities and impact inequalities. Like the statement, why do I have actions even matter if billionaires and their private jets don't give a shit? Like that, that kind of, ⁓ you know, addressing that point, cause it's something I have heard quite a few times. ⁓ and so having a couple of experts who experts who have published papers on that. kind of gets this ⁓ very having the answer and the person with the data, but also the generalist who can kind of like speak to the bigger picture. ⁓ But to answer the question, there isn't a kind of codified strategy ⁓ because it's evolving. didn't even, you know, I thought it was all gonna be one-on-one interviews. And then a few weeks ago, I was like, it'd be really good to have multiple people. Yeah, it's definitely evolving.
Climate Acceptance Studios: But you've definitely got, you know, an attention grabbing brand So talk to me about you know, the actual phrase itself climate unfucked Is it purely just clickbait to get numbers or
Rob Cooper: I mean, it develops from a LinkedIn headline, actually. ⁓ I I liked Mark Manson's book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, there's quite a lot of, know, profanity is quite overused, and you could argue I use it too much, ⁓ that it kind of washes it of its meaning. But I think there is, the kind of meaning behind it is, I feel like it's quite... I read something from Rory Sutherland, is the ex-Algovy CEO, or he led Algovy for an amount of time. He's on loads of podcasts and he was like, something like 99 % of the problem is just not getting ignored. ⁓ And I think in terms of marketing and communication, like especially in the climate world, and especially when you've got a podcast, because there's a lot of podcasts, ⁓ not getting ignored is like the first hurdle and if you get ignored then everything you do after that is useless. So I was really looking for something that would go ⁓ that would almost feel like you have to kind of do a double take and the profanity is you know it kind of they almost they're like juxtaposition you don't expect to hear a know a swear word after the word climate And I think that's, you know, you could get, I taught English, so you could get all English, English languagey about it and how the juxtaposition is a representation of this or that. But no, it's quite, I feel like the name does kind of sum up in a way, like it's quite lighthearted. It's supposed to be accessible. It's also quite serious. You know, it's a serious topic. So it's kind of got those two sides. ⁓ And I just found when I was testing out the idea, when I said it to people, they were like, ⁓ you know, it got a reaction. ⁓ So yeah, you could say it's click bait, but ⁓ I think click baits only click bait if you don't follow through.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So you're obviously a consumer of lots of climate and nature commons in a variety of forms. Do you think that our sector, if you're going to define it as a sector, should be playing more of these games, should be being more, dare I say it, risque or living on the edge? Because I think there is, obviously we've got on our side the science and there's a real desire to say, look, look, here's the problem, here's the graph, take it seriously. Indeed, the podcast that we're going to release next week, which has also been a guest of yours, a lovely and gorgeous Phil Corbell, me and Nathaniel, my partner and producer, were debating about including a cuddly toy in the trailer. And I was sort of against it because, yeah, because it's like, we want to be serious, we're a serious whatever. And like, know, Nathaniel quite rightly sort of talked me down. So I'm all, I myself am fighting this, right? You know, so.
Rob Cooper: Pedro.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Does there need to be more controversy, playfulness or what have you? Unseriousness within climate comms as a whole, you think?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, I mean, I would say that I have a podcast which kind of guns at that angle. But I definitely, I think if you, if you to step back, if you laid out all of the climate comms that have happened over the past 25 years, and I am by no means an expert on understanding all of the dimensions of that, but from what I understand, if you were to group it on an X and Y as like fun, and like serious or something, then it would all be in the not so fun and very serious quadrant. And in terms of what people will consume and listen to, are, ⁓ you know, most people, it depends who you've, really obviously depends who you're trying to speak to. If you're trying to speak to other professionals, then making it, you know, goofy. I mean, I think I was watching, ⁓ ⁓ King Charles's speech to the Congress that he did, he's in the US at the moment doing a of diplomatic trip, I guess you'd call it. And I think, I feel like that, is that what it's called? Is that what he's calling it?
Climate Acceptance Studios: PR for democracy, he says. That's his mission statement apparently. He's there to advocate for democracy. But there we go.
Rob Cooper: Yeah, but say what you will. mean, there's lots of things to say on both sides of that, know, royal family, Trump, there's loads of things to say, but I think one thing that I think he's really, really got right. And I, I think his good inspiration in this, in this sense is he's, he's, he's meeting people where they are, where they are at, I, ⁓ it's not just starting straight off with the serious, ⁓ you know, ⁓ some like, this is what we need to do or, you know, this is the, this is our national policy on this. He's finding common ground. And I think, I think there needs to be more finding common ground. And if that common ground is ⁓ humor, then that's common ground for almost everyone. That's like a universal language. And it's something, it's one I really enjoy and I want to lean into more. ⁓ So to answer your question, does it need more? more unseriousness. think Simon Clarke put like called it the choir of climate voices and I think I would argue There needs to be more voices in the choir that are not just the you know the deep bass the the kind of we all screwed you know it needs to be a bit more like ⁓ this these are kind of ⁓ light-hearted ⁓ ⁓ like fun parts of it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, so we're now going on to the quickfire round. Although I'm calling it the medium fire round sometimes because some of my guests can't do quickfire. But you're young and with a nimble brain, Rob. So I've got hope as probably our youngest guest so far that you're gonna really go for it and give us our social media sound bites. So here we go. World Association, what's the first word that comes to mind when I say climate?
Rob Cooper: Okay. I'll try as best as I can. ⁓ wow. Okay, right, wow. Humans.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Who's your greatest inspiration when it comes to people communicating the climate?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ Kevin Anderson. That changes. I'm trying not to give anything longer than a short answer.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good. Kevin Hansen's amazing. Do you have a favourite book or a movie or a TV show? Just one that could, that sort of inspires you. Hey, have they got climate in the Big Bang Theory?
Rob Cooper: No, I mean, you said inspires me and I feel like that it's not directly. I think there's a lot of point in taking things that aren't directly connected. You know, they talk about science and they make it fun.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, I can see that. Very good, very good. What's your favorite communications channel?
Rob Cooper: YouTube. Is that an answer?
Climate Acceptance Studios: And what do you, of course, yeah, what do you think is the most effective communications channel when it comes to climate?
Rob Cooper: Okay. visual video.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Do you have a favourite stat or fact about the climate and nature crisis?
Rob Cooper: Ooh, the 10 % wealthiest in the world are responsible for 64 % of emissions.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, yes, the climate crisis is not a crisis of human population. Is there one piece of myth or disinformation that infuriates you more than any other that you wish could be eradicated from the earth? What climate myth you wish could be gone?
Rob Cooper: that if we just ⁓ shout about it louder, ⁓ that it will all be fixed. I'm really trying not to give any longer answers. I feel it feels incredibly against my nature not to qualify what I'm saying, but anyway, I'm just trying to say it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Interesting answer, very good. No, this is good. This is good gut reactions. Like what's your number one source of climate information?
Rob Cooper: Carbon Brief.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good. And finally, do you have your own go-to favourite analogy or metaphor for explaining climate change?
Rob Cooper: I would... I love the one that... this is going to be a little bit longer, but collective and individual action can be ⁓ represented by water flowing down a hill. That if you're trying to get water to flow up the hill, it's not going to happen. You need to change the gradient. And the conditions, the collective or the government and the policy is the... is the angle and the gradient of the hill and then what people do is the the the routes that the water find. ⁓ That is Simon Clarke's, it's not mine, I stole it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, I love that. I've never heard that, that's brilliant. Well, there we go. The quick fire round is over now so you can relax back into your qualifications, Rob.
Rob Cooper: Mm. ⁓ god. Not that I have too many of those.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So qualify away, okay. ⁓ All right, so let's just return very quickly to finish off with the podcast. So ⁓ you're up and running, you're confident that you're, you see you've done how many episodes now, is it 12?
Rob Cooper: No, it's ⁓ 17th came out this week. Yeah. So I think I'm-
Climate Acceptance Studios: 17, wow. And is it sustainable?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ No pun intended. ⁓ Yes, it ⁓ is. I think for a while I was hell bent on going to every week, but I decided that that wouldn't be sustainable. ⁓ I'm, yeah, I'm trying to, think thinking of it as like an ultra ultra ultra marathon ⁓ and how can I make sure I don't wear out my running shoes in the first 5k. ⁓ That's how I'm trying to do it.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Do you get any sense of the impact you've had so far? Is there any sense at all there?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ almost completely unaware. ⁓ If maybe negligible, maybe some, ⁓ yeah, I don't really know. I, yeah, I don't know. I always find it difficult when, you know, what I do sits in a very broad web of a lot of other people and.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Bye.
Rob Cooper: You it's like climate change, isn't it? You can't just link one, you can't draw a causal line.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Yeah, I so empathise in our line of work, making video content. The video that we make is just one piece within the whole lattice work of stuff that our clients is doing. So it's always quite a challenge to work out and measure what the impact is beyond obvious things like shares and likes and numbers of listeners. Okay, but as I say, one of the reasons I'm excited to have you on is we are...
Rob Cooper: Hmm. Yeah.
Climate Acceptance Studios: speaking to clients all the time who have thought about or indeed just launched ⁓ a podcast themselves. What are your overall learnings so far that you can maybe share with our audience?
Rob Cooper: it doesn't have to be as hard as you think it does. you can just dip your toe in the water and I mean, Riverside, which we're recording on now gives you two hours for free. So if you think that if, if you have this idea, I think I'd quite like to do a podcast that sounds nice, then just find someone, someone who you would actually like to publish an episode with, not just an easy one. So you've ticked the box and go through the motion of like, okay, we're going to contact this person, get an answer, research them, set up a time, have a conversation, edit it, put it out there, and then just see what happens. I ⁓ think obviously often the bigger the organization, the more ⁓ distance there is between the thought and the action. And actually sometimes to know whether the action is the right thing, just decreasing that as much as possible. ⁓ So, Yeah, I think if you're if you're not sure do do one ⁓ and see what you think and then and then reduce that whatever you think the the rose tintedness of the glasses reduce that by like 20 or 30 percent and then you you probably have how you'll feel that sort of episode 10, you know plus a load of other hours and and time. ⁓ I think that's quite a good I I mean, I absolutely loved the first episode that I did I came away being like, I love this. I could do this like for like 20 years and you know, and then reduce that by 20 % when, you a string of people have said no and then you're struggling for a guest and then it's the reality and I still enjoy it a lot. So that's like quite a test.
Climate Acceptance Studios: I felt like I didn't get the swing of it until about episode seven or eight and I was finally relaxing into my voice and how do I pitch it tonally and all that sort of stuff.
Rob Cooper: Yeah. ⁓ I wouldn't say it. ⁓ that wasn't as like, ⁓ I think I'm it's it was particularly good or it was just, you know, that moment where you that someone called them red threads, like you have all these threads going through your life. And then when you find like a moment or 10 minutes or an hour or whatever, where you're like, you flow state, you know, you're in a flow state, then that's like, that's like the metal detector running over the beach that beeps and then you like, ⁓ I need to
Climate Acceptance Studios: Mm-hmm.
Rob Cooper: I need to dig wherever this is. If you get that, I mean, I'm speaking about it from like a personal passion point of view, not a strategic company decision. So if you're making it as a strategic company decision, then you know, how much you're in a flow state on the recording of the episode maybe isn't the biggest factor. But yeah, that's what it has been for me.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Well, I've certainly enjoyed it. And obviously there'll be a link to the podcast in the show notes. So please check it out and indeed go back into the back catalog. There's lots of great chats in there. A broad range of opinion and people. Okay, so for the final stage, I wanna just go on to sort of more general opinions. However, ⁓ if you don't mind, Rob, I am like super impressed with your work on LinkedIn. you're certainly better than me and I would love to basically use this as an excuse to learn some stuff off you for the next 10 minutes. ⁓ so, because you keep, you do these posts and they get such great engagements and I wonder why. So, mean, LinkedIn, climate comms, you know, but what do you see as like the near term future?
Rob Cooper: Of course.
Climate Acceptance Studios: for climate communications, maybe LinkedIn specifically and climate comms. What do you think is coming up? What are the trends within it?
Rob Cooper: ⁓ this... Me answering this makes me sound like some kind of expert fortune teller who's like got the finger on the pulse and I feel like I don't have as... I have as little clue as anyone else. I shared guy...
Climate Acceptance Studios: Well, okay, here's a related question then. Like to what extent are you a slave to the algorithm or did you just do your stuff? Do you spend any time second guessing and tracking what the changes to the algorithm are?
Rob Cooper: I think if someone who's being really successful, I think firstly, the phrase slave to the algorithm is obviously overly hyperbolic. We're all slaves to many, algorithms, whether it's what your Sainsbury's shop suggests that you buy. So I've accepted that I am a slave to the algorithm and it's just how much of a slave I am accepting that I am. ⁓ Sounds a very weird sentence to say. I am a slave to the algorithm in the sense that, well, let me flip that coin over and say what's on the other side. On the other side of that statement is I look at what's working from other people, try to reverse engineer it and try to do a bit more of that. That's what, and that is learning the algorithm because that is looking at something that has been successful on the platform. So I have a link that I click that I've saved of like five or 10 people whose posts qualification. It really matters what you care about when you are like looking at your metrics of success on LinkedIn. Cause for most people, I was coaching people on LinkedIn up until fairly recently on how to get business from the platform, know, earn money from it. And the things that make my posts go poppity poop and have lots of likes and impressions are not the same thing that gets someone a client. So I think it's really, really important not to conflate some, like my post can get 700 likes, but no one books a sales call, but Frieda's post gets 10 likes and she books three sales calls. So it's really important to like, really question and the vanity metrics are called that for a reason aren't they? Like they feed your ego and your vanity but ultimately if it's not helping your business outcomes or whatever outcomes you're looking for then there's no point chasing them. ⁓ I qualified it so much I can't remember what your question was.
Climate Acceptance Studios: No, well, I think we've now appreciated that you're definitely a slave to the algorithm, Rob. ⁓ So, specifically in terms of climate unfucked though, do you ever follow the actual science of climate communication? Do you ever read any of those studies or reports?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, a self-confessed slave. Yes, I'm trying to, ⁓ so I had Dr. Elaine Lertzman on who's a climate psychologist who, know, her specialist field is in how to communicate climate effectively. It's something that I'm very fascinated in and I've spoken to other people about, you know, and this is something that's... ⁓ that's kind of a bit of a, is it called a red herring? The thing that might go viral on a platform is often not the thing that is effective, like psychologically. like debunking is a perfect example. Like if you just go, this is the thing that they say, and this is why it's wrong. Like nobody who watches that is going to, and who really believes the first thing is going to have their mind changed by you simply telling them that they're wrong for this, this, this, and this reason. Because, well, from this, yeah. I'm not gonna explain the psychology, but so I try to not, and that's sometimes it's a bit annoying because you feel like you could kind of get more, know, like I could create short form content, for example, that's maybe ignoring the principles of climate communication or effective change making communication, but that would do really well. So yeah, I try to listen to it. And I think something that I'm trying to do more is an important part of effective climate communication from what I understand is showing your own mistakes and fallibility so that the person who's listening doesn't feel like you and they are on opposite ends of the spectrum. you know, when I had Frank Holloman on talking about diet, was like, you know, my favorite food was a beef burger. which it was for like, I don't know, 22 years. Well, probably not from age zero, maybe say 20 years or whatever. Yeah, so I think really trying to, I think that's really important. Otherwise we're just, you know, we're just really throwing shit at the wall that's not gonna have any chance of sticking.
Climate Acceptance Studios: So when you're promoting climate unfucked on LinkedIn, ⁓ you thinking about, you know, effective climate communication to win minds, hearts and minds whilst you're doing that?
Rob Cooper: Ummm... That's not the first thing I'm thinking of. The first thing that I think of when I'm promoting it is, well, to be honest, it doesn't really get any listens from LinkedIn. So I mean, it might get 20 or something, like, so me promoting it, like, that's not, the things that go viral for me is not related to the podcast. It's other stories of other things. ⁓ And, you know, if I am, promoting something related to the podcast then, you know, it's, I'm aware, basically all my connections on LinkedIn are already in climate and sustainability. I, so it's, you know, at that point it is quite a kind of, you know, transferring of information. Like this is what this person said and this is what I found interesting. If I was trying to change someone's mind or convince someone of something then. It wouldn't be just a, this is what we talked about on the latest episode because anyone who's doesn't care about that isn't going to be interested by that. ⁓ so I don't try and do that on LinkedIn.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Okay, okay. So you've been speaking to all these amazing people across sector with different tactics. What's your favourite or what's the one message that has popped out, if you could isolate just one message that you've heard across all these different people, that you think the public, so you've positioned yourself as like a member of the public, as a layman doing this podcast. If they could only hear one message from all your guests, what would that message be around the environment?
Rob Cooper: Whoa, that's really hard. ⁓
Climate Acceptance Studios: Or several, mean, doesn't necessarily, what's the first thing that springs to mind?
Rob Cooper: I the first thing is, I think this is, mean, Phil would have probably spoken about this, but I think it really is the place to start, is if there was a message for the public, it's understanding how it affects you and what you care about. Because I think once someone understands how it affects something that they care about on them, then that opens the door. It just cracks it open. There's just like a little shaft of light coming in but the door is then open and that is I've heard I've listened to a couple of episodes of where Katherine Hayhoe has been talking this climate scientist and she does this really cool thing where she'll get someone to say where they're from and then she will say how that place is being impacted by climate change and I think that's really if I mean, we're all tied you know, to a greater or lesser extent to our place where we live or where we're from. So it's a really good thing to start with. But I think that's really effective because I think a lot of ineffective ⁓ communication or climate communication isn't ⁓ taking, isn't putting enough weight and importance behind what does this person who I'm speaking to care about. ⁓ So I think that would be the one thing. What does this person care about? How can I try to meet them where they're at? Which is hard.
Climate Acceptance Studios: And that's more a strategy, isn't it? So do you think that's if the climate communicators of the world were going to focus on one strategy, would that be the strategy or is there a strategy you want to hone in on?
Rob Cooper: I think that would be it. mean, quite a lot of this comes from the conversation with Dr. Renee Lertzman and a good example, like a concrete example, the Department for Transport in London were trying to get more people to cycle. And the way that they did that is that they made billboards. One of the billboards was of a woman, ⁓ in Renee's words, ⁓ riding a bicycle that was festooned with flowers in a sunny park with a big smile on her face. And as Renée said, like anybody who has ever cycled in Britain, and especially London, know that it's a hair-raising, wet, sweaty, quite often unpleasant, ⁓ scary experience that it doesn't look anything or feel anything like that that billboard would imply. And that is a perfect example of like really out of touch and quite ineffective. And it's climate communication in a way, cause it's the way people, you know, get around. It's not directly climate communication, but I think it's a good example. And I think in, you, asked earlier, does it need to be a bit less serious? Her point was that, ⁓ if you made this, this advert, a picture of a woman, absolutely drenched head to toe, having a bust. just gone past and covered her in a muddy puddle that was on the side of the road while she's trying to figure out how to get to the Bakerloo, you know, street line on her phone that she can't put into the holder because it doesn't fit or whatever, then it would meet people where they're at in the sense that anyone who's ridden a bike has had an unpleasant experience like that. And if you haven't ridden a bike, you've definitely seen someone who looks like they're having an awful time because it's pissing it down. So you really understand and you can relate. And then if it were to say something like, you know, it also meets somewhere where they're at in this, in the, in the statement, like, you know, riding a bike in London might always, might not always be pretty, but, ⁓ it gets you there without the congestion or, know, whatever, whatever benefit they're trying to push, ⁓ greener or you get exercise or fresh air or, you know, it's cheaper or whatever, then, then that would, then that's where like the strategy of like meet people where they're at translates into the tactic of, you know, what's these people's direct experience of this thing. And, you know, you can take that any, anything from cycling to energy prices to, ⁓ you know, secondhand clothing to any pick any issue and you know the the billboards that is the like made by PR people in a nice shiny boardroom and the reality of someone who's doing it in real life are often worlds apart and I think the closer that they are the more effective the communication is.
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, I quite agree and that's a great ending. So Rob, I appreciate your time. I know that it's an interesting experience for you to be on the other side of the microphone. mean, are there two sides to the microphone? I'm not sure. So ⁓ because this is a podcast about working professionals, what's next on your to-do list? What's next on your calendar today? What have you got coming up?
Rob Cooper: Yeah, it's quite odd. There's many sides. I'm cycling ⁓ to where we're doing a house sit. So I'm looking at where me and my girlfriend are looking looking after a dog. So I'll be cycling there ⁓ with a load of tofu in my bag. I mean, it's very cliche, isn't it?
Climate Acceptance Studios: Very good, very good. Well, yeah, again, I heartily recommend the Climate Unfucked post and indeed to check out Rob on LinkedIn and his excellent post there. And if we're following his strategy that he is following what people have worked and then he's retrofitting it, I think I'm gonna do the same now. So this is what I've learned today, which is much appreciated. So Rob, thank you so much for your time.
Rob Cooper: Yeah. Nice one, Tom. Thank you very much for having me on.
