Lost Gifts: Miscarriage, Hope, and the God of All Comfort | Brittany Lee Allen

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Brittany Lee Allen, thank you for joining me on Commitment
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to Reality.
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Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
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I want to start right away by talking about the
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silence itself. You write about miscarriage and grief. Why is
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it so hard for us to talk about miscarriage.
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Well, I think it's because of the culture we live
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in is a big part of it, just that champions abortion.
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That makes it hard to talk about miscarriage because we
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almost feel like we're not allowed to grieve a baby
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that dies in the womb because the culture would say
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that it's not a baby. So I think that is
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a big part of it. But then also even in
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the church, like many Christians will just the things they
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say or that we say that I said before I
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experienced miscarriages myself about life in the womb when it's lost,
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miscarriage is just really revealing of what we truly believe
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about life in the womb. And I think that that
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can cause a lot of silence for women because we
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are scared to hear some of those comments because they
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hurt so deeply.
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No, I think you're exactly right. I mean, you talk
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about how we didn't lose a pregnancy. We lost a child, right,
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And if there's a group of people who should champion
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that above all, it's the church.
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Yeah.
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And yet, like you said, the church has become part
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of the problem to some degree, and the way that
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we discuss it where we really are missing an opportunity
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to witness to the world what we truly believe about
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life in the womb.
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Yeah.
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I'll tell you a story about my first introduction to miscarriage. So,
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I come from a big family, and I remember I
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was in high school and my mom came to the
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door or to the door of my car as I
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was about to leave, and she told me I'm pregnant,
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and I thought seriously again, like yeah, so. And then
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not that long after, she told me that she had
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lost the baby. And my parents gave it a name,
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and I think that that is so important, naming the child.
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It can be difficult. We'll discuss that later, but they
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named the baby baby Grace. And I was talking to
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some people that I worked with earlier today who were there,
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and I said, man, you know, as a teenager, I
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remember feeling so uncomfortable. We had a funeral and there
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were so many people there, and I had kind of
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taken on the conception of the culture that well, we
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didn't really lose a baby, and even to the point
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where they had to they told me this morning, I
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didn't know this detail that they had to get a
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death certificate, that they had to fight for it in
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order to have the burial. Yeah, And you know, I
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carried that with me for a long time. I mean,
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my parents would always say, you know, they have whatever
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amount of children they've adopted since and the number keeps shifting,
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but they always always included the miscarriage, And while I
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intellectually understood it, practically speaking, it was always so hard
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for me to adopt, even to the point where my wife,
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my now wife, when we were dating, she was like,
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your parents keep saying they have twelve children, but I'm
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counting and I'm missing one. And so I had to
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tell her.
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That, yeah, there's something about losing life in your own
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body for me that just really harpened my pro life
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stance and just and just showed me the ways that
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I was maybe not believing that every life is valuable.
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And once you lose a baby in the womb, it's like,
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you know, you lost a person, Like it's there is
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this grief there that is just a testament to what
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was lost. And so yeah, I think I love that
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your parents named your or your sibling their baby and
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that they counted I'm assuming her because of grace or
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did they Yeah, they accounted her as you know, part
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of the family. And I just think that's so beautiful
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and and it's hard because that does push back against culture.
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I've talked to doctors in the past when they were
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asking me how many children I've had, and I've explained,
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you know, I lost three babies and then I have
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two living children and they have just totally. I had
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one doctor that was literally just like, so you have
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two children, like right after I said that, and I
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was just like, okay, so this is the culture we
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live in.
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Well, I you know, I hate to make this just
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story hour, but you know, they can be illuminating these
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anecdotes because that's a negative one and I want to
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counter it with a really positive one. And I think
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it's an example of how we should live our lives,
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you know, practice what you preach in the truest sense
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of the word. Yeah, I was with a monk and
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in Greece who had become friends with and we were
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talking and somehow my wife and I my wife was
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with us, our miscarriage came up. Now, if you bring
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up a miscarriage, usually it's met with some ugh, oh,
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I'm so sorry, or immediate without a beat, he leaped
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out of his chair. Wonderful. So you have three children? Oh,
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And that to me was so natural. There was nothing
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performative about it. He celebrated the life that we have,
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and that to me was so wonderful because you know,
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you talk about naming the child, but it's actually recognizing
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mm hmm.
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Yeah. Yeah, it's absolutely recognizing that it was a true
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human that died and who, at least I believe, will
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be in heaven when we get there. And so these
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babies that are lost in the wom they have souls
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and we should treat them as so.
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Absolutely absolutely. So, you know, I told you about my
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first encounter with miscarriage as a person, but then I
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had my first experience with miscarriage, and I can honestly
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say it was one of the most painful things I'd
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ever experienced because you go through the whole gamut of emotions.
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I mean, you're so excited. I mean, we had already
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had my son, Grace. So I have a boy named Grace. Okay,
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So when you said you assume, I said, of course.
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But then I forget in my own world, it's become
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so commonplace that his name is Grace. I mean a
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lot of people push back on me. They're like, are
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sure you want to do that to him? You want
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to give the boy named Grace? But I said, we
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all need more grace. And you know, there's a long
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story about it, but how he got his name, but
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we had already experienced that. And it's so beautiful and wonderful.
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And when you find out you're gonna do it again, Oh,
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I mean, it's the best. It's I always tell everybody
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every time I see an infant, I tell the parents,
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this should never be normal, this should never be commonplace.
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Every time we see a baby, we should think what
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a miracle, right, It's incredible. And so then when that
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slips through your fingers. And I remember laying in bed
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with my wife and she told me that she thought
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she was miscarrying, and I just I was in denial completely.
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I mean, she was certain. I said no, no, no, no,
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can't be no. And you're just you're sobbing, and you're
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so upset and you're holding out hope. And it actually
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was a real roller coaster where she went to the
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doctor and they said, no, everything's fine, and you know,
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they saw a heartbeat, everything's okay. And then she miscarried
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the next day and so it's hi lo hi low.
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And one of the things that happened after that is
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something that you described in your book, and I found
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it to be so beautiful. It's raw, it's real. You
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said that you texted your husband to come and find
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the baby that you had miscarried, and my mother did
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that with my wife. She came and she said, no, no, no,
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absolutely not. That is a child, and I'm going to
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help you find it. Because it's hard and it's emotional
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and it's bloody. Literally. Yeah, I mean it's uncomfortable talk about,
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but I think it's also important too, because you wouldn't
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just leave your husband or your mother or anybody else
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discarded the same way. Yeah, could you tell me about
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that experience with your husband.
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Yeah, that was kind of a weird experience because I sorry,
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it's just lightned. There might be some thunder in the background. Anyway,
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that was just it was a hard experience because also
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now looking back, I know that that likely wasn't like
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my baby likely wasn't there, and we never did find anything,
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and so I think what we were looking at was
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like the pleasant because it was like four days after
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the really bad part of the miscarriage. But and I
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don't want to like be too gory for listeners, but
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I definitely think that I actually lost the baby the
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night I began miscarrying, and because there were these really
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intense contractions. I mean, I was nine and a half
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weeks but I've since then experienced full childbirth twice, and
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like the contractions were that bad for me with my
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first miscarriage, and so like I really did labor that baby.
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I was like in the state of hyperventilation and I
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just was about to pass out at the moment that
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I think I actually passed the baby. And I remember
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going into the hallway and falling to the floor and
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my husband scooped me up and was helping me breathe,
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and I just remember saying, like, I'm never getting pregnant again,
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like I never want to do this again. And that
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was our first pregnancy, so obviously I changed my mind,
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but it was awful. So I and there's so much
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regret because of the state that I was in that
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I didn't get to like see that baby, you know,
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like I did have to just flush the baby because
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I didn't know, like I didn't fully understand what was happening.
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And I know that that is like something that a
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lot of women go through, Like I've heard stories of
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women who have miscarried in a restaurant bathroom and they
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can't they feel like they, I can't take my baby
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from the toilet, you know, like miscarriage is so gruesome,
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like it's awful and anyway, So but yeah, there was
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that moment where about four days later, I did have
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that experience and I thought it was maybe my baby,
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but yeah, it's kind of a weird situation, but it
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I don't think it actually was. And I think I
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say that in the book, like I explain, but it
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was still a pivotal moment for our marriage because I
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was asking him to enter into my grief. And so
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that's why I shared that in the book.
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Not just your grief, but I mean, for lack of
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a better word, your gore. Yeah, I mean it's gruesome,
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you know, it is not a pleasant thing. And I mean,
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I love my mother for many reasons. She's a rock star,
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but she was just I mean, and it really showed
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I think my wife how much my mother one loved
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her and me, but also truly believed that that was
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a child, you know, going through I mean, my wife
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was like she just no gloves, no nothing, just going
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through with their bare hands. And she was able to
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find the child. And you know, this is one of
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the most painful things. Is well, one of the most painful.
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It's it's difficult because at that stage we didn't know
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the gender, and so you know, we gave the baby
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the name Rain because you're trying to find a name
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that can go both ways. And the reason that I
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gave the baby the name Rain is because I wanted
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it to be a constant reminder. You just said, there's
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thunder in the background. I wanted every time it rained
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for me to remember, right, so that it was a
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constant because we can go on with life and you
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forget and you move on and you say, oh, I
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have two children, right, and it's just not true. And
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so the painful thing, but it's also exciting and it
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might be one of the things that I'm most excited
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for outside of the obvious, which is that when we
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lost our first child through miscarriage, Rain I got a
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text and said, as terrible as this is, your child
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is praying for you and will be until he or
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she greets you at the gates of heaven. That's so
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sick and that is just and so I try. I
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tried my best to develop a relationship as best you can.
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And you know, with this kind of this uncertainty, like
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is Rain a boy or a girl? I don't know.
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I will find out one day. But every time I
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finish a run, I say, Rain, pray for your dad.
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He needs it.
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That's so sweet. I love that thought. I also have
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been comforted by similar things like this is gonna make
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me sound really hick, but my mama and papal Okay
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are my grandma and grandpa and they are both in
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heaven now. And I have thought so many times my
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ma'amall just recently passed, and she was probably one of
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the most special honestly, probably aside from my immediate family,
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the most special person in my life. She was like
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a mom to me, and so the thought of her
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like getting to be there with all my babies before
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I even get too, is just like so beautiful and sweet,
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and I just, yeah, like almost brings me to tears
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thinking about her love and on them and I don't
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know what it all is going to look like, but
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it's really beautiful.
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So I love that you shure absolutely, And there's it's
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it's difficult, so you know, there's paradox in this. And
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right after, very shortly after my wife miscarried and lost Rain,
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she got pregnant and they call them rainbow babies, right,
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And I guess that's fitting after Rain. And I always
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think about this because while I already say that was
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one of the most painful things that I ever experienced,
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losing a child, I have my son packs and he
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would not be here had we not lost that child.
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And you never square that circle. It's just the paradox
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that you hold intention and that can be helpful in
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some way. So I've had your book on my shelf
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for a long time, well not that long, it didn't
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come out that long ago, but I've had it on
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the shelf because as soon as I saw it, I said,
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I'd like to read that. I think this is an
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important topic that doesn't get discussed enough. Yeah, and about
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a month ago, my wife was with me and my family.
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I have a big family, and we were all out
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and we had just found out that she was pregnant,
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and so did my brother, and it was this very
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exciting thing that, Wow, what are the odds my wife
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and my sister in law both found out on the
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same day that they were pregnant.
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Oh wow.
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And so it was this week of just pure elation
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and joy. And we were at a restaurant and my
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wife came up to me and started talking about what
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you talk about in the book, and this is why
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your book is also really important, not just for women,
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but for men to understand what's going on. And she said,
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there's some blood on the tissue paper. I'm worried about it.
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And I went into denial and then she came out.
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She kept disappearing, going back and forth, and every time
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she left, I started to get that yeah angst. And
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she came up to me and said, I think we
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need to go home home, being about four hours away.
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She said, I don't want to do this in a restaurant.
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I didn't want to do this at an AIRBNBA. We
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need to go home.
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Yeah.
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And so it's that roller coaster, right that you're related
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and then it's just complete despair and hopelessness. And you think, oh, man,
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but it was very different the second time, not because
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it wasn't real. And you talk about this this contentment.
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It's not it's not being happy with your situation. It's
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being happy in your situation. And there's a big difference.
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And I'd like to explain that, but you really like,
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how how could I, knowing what I know about packs
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my second child, my second living child with us, how
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could I despair too too strongly? You know, no knowing
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what's possible. So you just hold that, like I said,
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you hold that that tension, that paradox. And we gave
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the name Jobi after my aunt Jobi. And there's a father,
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Joby that's very close to us, and I thought, job
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God gives, God takes away less. It be the name
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of the Lord now glory to God in all things.
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And so it's just I've got two children praying for me,
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and Lord knows I need it. Yeah, but it's it's
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really really difficult. How can you? I mean, I think
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it was one of the more beautiful things in your book.
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And it's true being happy in your situation, even though
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you might not be happy with it.
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Yeah. I think there's a lot of ideas about what
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it looks like to suffer well as believers, and we
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tend to think of that as like just constantly rejoicing,
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and we use, you know, rejoice always, rejoice always, But
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that's not the same thing as happiness. And I think
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that's more what people have in mind when they're saying that, like, oh,
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you don't need to cry, like you need to just
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trust God and you need to just rejoice, and you
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need to do all these things. But you can rejoice
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in your salvation and in the Lord even as you
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are grieving whatever you might be grieving. We're obviously talking
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about miscarriage here. You can be, like you said, happy
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in your circumstances, but not necessarily like rejoicing in or
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I mean over like like saying this thing is good,
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that's happening. Instead you're saying God is good in this thing,
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and I trust him and I know that He's going
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to work this out for my good, and that's why
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you can have peace in the midst of that trial.
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Yeah, you gave it a name. Talk about giving it
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a name. You gave the name the emotional prosperity gospel. Ah, yes,
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could you explain what that is?
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Yeah? I talk about this in both my books. I
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it's not a very good name. I really wanted to
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come up with something pitier.
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No, that is that is piffy, because just as the
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sparity gospel is dangerous, so can the emotional prosperity gospel
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that is perfect.
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Yeah, it's I saw somebody on Twitter though they had
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called it. They explained what I'm kind of talking about here,
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and they called it prosperity gospel backwash, and I was like, man,
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I wish I would have came up with that, but
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I couldn't, you know, steal that from them. But I
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just love that so much. But yeah, so for me,
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I just named it emotional prosperity gospel or teaching. But yeah,
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it's just this. It's it's almost this idea that like, well,
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if you're truly a faithful Christian, then you are going
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to always be happy and like things are not going
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to cause you to spiral into depression or being downcast
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or these like deep feelings that we might experience, these sorrows,
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we'll just kind of slip off our backs and we'll
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just be really resilient. But that's a lot different than
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like true perseverance. I mean, somebody today was sharing with
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me that in her suffering she had people quote the
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part of Job where it says, I can't even remember
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exactly what it says, but it ends with in all
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this he did not sin. But they were saying it
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to her as if she was sinning for lamenting and grieving.
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And like, I'm like, did they read the rest of Job,
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because like he says some really some really hard stuff
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and yet he I mean, until the end, there's he's
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not really in sin. You know, he is pouring out
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his heart to God. And so I think that that
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we need to have room for these struggles and these emotions,
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and we don't really have that in the church. We're
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very much like believing that suffering well looks like just
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keep going and don't grieve like or only grief for
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a short amount of time and then you should be
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over it. No.
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I love how you emphasize lament and you say that
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we most of us don't know how to lament or
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the importance of lament because we haven't been taught. Yeah,
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and what is the importance of lament in a Christian life?
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Yeah? I mean, I think it's Mark Rogop that talks
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about it being the language of suffering or something like,
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it's what you do when you're suffering. It's how you
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talk to God. It's the language you use to talk
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to Him about the pain you're feeling. And when we
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are taking those things to God and lament and we're
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pouring out our hearts like we see in the Psalms,
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then that's actually worship like because we are showing, like
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we are telling him you are God. And I know
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that that's why I'm bringing this to you, because you're
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the only one that can help me that That is
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a innocence worship, and it's very important. If we continue
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to just hold everything in and we don't go to
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God in our pain, then we're holding back a part
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of ourselves from Him and that is never going to
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be a good thing. It's not going to be healthy
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or good for our relationship with him.
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Yeah, my friend, he was on the podcast earlier and
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he said that he spent some time in the monastery
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and he said something about suffering that you know, it's
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been controversial once we posted the clip. What he said
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that when he first got into the monastery, one of
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the monks told him, you know, oh you're suffering wonderful.
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That means God is visiting you. And he said it
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rocked his world. And it doesn't you know, that could
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be twisted in all kinds of ways, like you're you're
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seeking out masochism or something. Yeah, that's not the point.
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It's it's it's like you said, it's inviting yourself into
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the presence of God and and trusting Him in all things.
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Like when I say glory to God and all things.
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Don't get that twisted either. It's not that I'm saying, oh,
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thank God for this terrible thing. Yeah, it's in the
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midst of this terrible thing, glory to God and lean
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on Him as best we can't. But like you said,
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we're not often taught how to do.
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That, right. Yeah. And I think that's a big thing
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in the American Church in particular, because I think about
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some of these conversations we're having, they just wouldn't be
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having in these places where Christians are highly persecuted because
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they're just trying to survive, Like they're not going to
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be telling others like you're not suffering well enough, Like
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you know, I don't know, I just I think it
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kind of reveals that that we haven't really good The
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fact that we can even have these conversations about lament
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kind of shows that, in a way, we think we
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can live without it.
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Well, that that's why I wanted to talk to you.
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I mean, like I said, I've had your book on
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the shelf and I've had your your name on a
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list for a long time. Now. My second experience with
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miscarriage kind of jumped you just in front because I thought,
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you know what, we don't talk about this, and I
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want to talk about this wall it's raw, yeah, you know,
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because and I hate to talk about it like this.
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Because so there's the twelve week rule. Could you tell
427
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me what the twelve week rules? And then and then
428
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I'll kind of explain why I brought it up.
429
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Yeah, the twelve week rule is kind of this unwritten
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rule that for women that we shouldn't, you know, tell
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people about our baby until we've passed the twelve week
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mark because miscarriage risks significantly goes down at that point.
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And so a lot of women kind of just like
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live with this rule, and a lot of older generation
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will kind of tell you just remember, like, don't say
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anything until it's been twelve weeks until you're out of
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the woods, you know. So it's very kind of pushed
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on us. And it's really sad because it causes women,
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not only those who are suffering miscarriage to suffer alone
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if they go through that, but like it also causes
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women who are like sick or like like really fatigued
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or anything like those hard pregnancy symptoms like to suffer
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alone because they're not telling many people. And so that's
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kind of the twelve weeks rule.
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And it's very personal, and so I don't want what
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I'm about to say to kind of sound like I'm
447
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criticizing people who practice that, right, But an elder in
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our church, she came up and she told us, always
449
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tell right away, Always tell, I said, why people wait
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till twelve weeks or whatever. Don't do that. That's silly.
451
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Tell people as soon as you find out why. Well,
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there are two really they're probably more than two reasons,
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but they are two main reasons. One, because we believe
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in the power of prayer, and we want to lift
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you up in prayer through the pregnancy. We want to
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pray for the health of the mother and the child
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or children. Two if anything happens, you're not alone, and
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you know, the church can be the church, right, And
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so we went to church right after we found out,
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and we were telling everybody. We were so excited, I mean,
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just over the moon, which means we then subsequently had
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to tell everybody about the miscarriage, right. And it's really
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hard because on one hand, I didn't want to be
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cavalier about it, but I felt like I had to
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comfort others more than they were trying to. You know,
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they got grievous, and they got the long face and
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the oh set and it is terrible. I mean that
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death is never a good thing, yeah, and losing a
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child is never a good thing. But it's our it's
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the hope that we all have, is that we progress
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in our life as a Christian where we start to
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understand things and we start to learn things, and you know,
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so there's no part of me that was happy, but
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I say, will we named the child. Here's the child's name,
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Jobi now and and and it's okay, it's okay, it's
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I'm I'm very sad, but it's okay. Like we have hope.
477
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And that's the difference is that I don't want to
478
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treat this as though it's I mean, like I said,
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it's a terrible thing, right, but it will also be
480
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:02.440
a beautiful thing, as I said, when we're greeted at
481
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.759
the gates of heaven by these children who've been praying
482
00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.640
for us. Yeah, and so that's why the twelve week rule,
483
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.240
I understand why it exists, but I want to encourage
484
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.839
people as somebody this is not a theoretical to me,
485
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.079
I experienced the because it's also a beautiful thing. To
486
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.440
tell everybody that made it real, right, you know it
487
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:27.039
wasn't this. Oh, because if you didn't tell anybody, then
488
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:30.880
it it does have the opportunity to kind of creep
489
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.319
out into well did that really even happen? So we
490
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:38.680
know it happened because we celebrated and then we mourned
491
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:42.440
together communally. And you talk about the church being the church,
492
00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:43.559
what do you mean by that.
493
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.799
Well, I mean just what you said. I mean praying
494
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:52.599
for each other and providing, like God provides for our
495
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.799
needs through the church, you know, like we're the hands
496
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:59.319
in the feet of Jesus. And so that's a real thing.
497
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:04.000
And they can't help us if we're not honest and
498
00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.960
open about where we're at and that can be hard.
499
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:10.039
It can be really hard to be vulnerable too, because, like,
500
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:16.519
especially regarding miscarriage, because I know that there are people
501
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.799
who are kind of pull yourself up by your bootstraps
502
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:24.160
kind of handling of miscarriage and just like don't really
503
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:29.000
want to even grieve it. And I know everybody grieves differently,
504
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.039
so I don't want to, like, you know, say that
505
00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:38.279
that's necessarily wrong. But because of that, it makes like
506
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:41.240
for me, I'll just say personally, it made me feel
507
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:44.640
like I was just wow, I'm really weak, the fact
508
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:49.160
that I actually need meals after this first miscarriage, like
509
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.720
because I can't do anything without sobbing on the floor,
510
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.920
like I was that broken, and also just physically for
511
00:31:57.000 --> 00:31:59.759
like a week, I was really struggling and so like,
512
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:03.160
But there were no meals provided for me. But there
513
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.880
are meals for people who have babies who have surgeries,
514
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.720
but there were no meals provided to women who miscarry
515
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:14.519
at our previous church. But I was scared to ask
516
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:18.680
for that because I didn't want people to kind of
517
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:21.440
be like, wow, I didn't need that during my miscarriage,
518
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.559
and so yeah, I don't know where I was going
519
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.480
with that. But the church needs to be the church
520
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.960
and provide meals for women who miscarry everything.
521
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:34.240
Well, I mean, and you did give in your book,
522
00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:38.440
you gave examples, and it was it was one of
523
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:39.440
my favorite parts.
524
00:32:39.839 --> 00:32:41.559
Oh yeah, there's a lot of ways.
525
00:32:41.640 --> 00:32:44.079
Because sometimes I've gotten to a bad habit as I
526
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.799
get older. We're all flipped through books. When I was younger,
527
00:32:46.799 --> 00:32:49.039
that was anathema. You start at the beginning and you
528
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.480
don't and you don't jump ahead. And I remember jumping ahead,
529
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:54.799
I said, we are the church. What does that mean
530
00:32:55.640 --> 00:33:00.440
or something along those lines. Yeah, and uh. I started
531
00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:05.279
thumbing through and I started reading it, and you said, paraphrase,
532
00:33:05.759 --> 00:33:09.000
so and so they were Christ to me. And then
533
00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:12.200
I read further they were Christ to me, and I
534
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:13.759
got chills. I get chills when I say it now,
535
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:22.119
because we need to constantly recognize and remember that we
536
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.400
are called to be the hands and feet of Christ.
537
00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:27.480
That it's I mean, one of the reasons that I
538
00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:32.839
was so reluctant to get into this podcast space is
539
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.400
I kind of hate apologetics sometimes, and and even this
540
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:41.440
is some form of an apologetic because it's constant you know,
541
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:45.400
I'm right, you're wrong, here's it and but it could
542
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.279
be no reminder that you know, this is not theoretical. Yeah,
543
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:54.680
it's it's a real thing. And when people we are
544
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:56.880
called to be the hands and feet of Christ, and
545
00:33:56.920 --> 00:34:00.319
when we're not, we can be the hands of feet
546
00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.119
of the devil. And that's a powerful thing. When somebody
547
00:34:04.160 --> 00:34:05.880
pointed that out to me, they said, when you are
548
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:10.599
not doing that, it's not neutral, like you are doing
549
00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:14.880
the work of the deceiver, so to speak. And when
550
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.920
I read through that said they were christ To me,
551
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:20.679
it's beautiful because we can be and we should be,
552
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.679
and that is the role of the church. And I
553
00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:27.519
really like that you didn't pull any punches when talking
554
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:31.639
about how pastors need to be better, that they need
555
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:34.199
to be more pastoral about this, that they need to
556
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:37.280
recognize this even in a formal way. You'll put it
557
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:42.119
in a bulletin like it's it gets to what we
558
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.920
were talking about earlier. Recognize this as a true life
559
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.239
that has been lost, right, and celebrate it and mourn
560
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:49.840
it as such.
561
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:54.400
Yeah, because that just preaches the truth of the value
562
00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:57.559
of these lives to the world. And if we do
563
00:34:57.639 --> 00:35:01.039
that for a baby that is born still born at
564
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:04.239
thirty six weeks, then we should do that for babies
565
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.199
born still or you know, born still at nine weeks
566
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:11.960
or six weeks or wherever, like, and so the value
567
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:14.519
of the life, like the experience may be different, but
568
00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.039
the value of the life is the same, and I
569
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:22.079
think that that's really important to be mindful about. But yeah,
570
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:24.840
it's so hard because they're like I'm even thinking of
571
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.280
people in my own life who I know were not
572
00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:32.599
as open about their miscarriages and they didn't want meals,
573
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.920
they didn't want people to talk to them about it,
574
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:40.280
and so like those there are people who feel that way,
575
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:42.920
and so I do think we have to respect that.
576
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:46.679
But I also at the same time, I think to myself, like,
577
00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.800
but what if your like three year old died, like
578
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.760
you would you know, like, what's the difference there, Like
579
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.920
you would want people to acknowledge that life, right, Like
580
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:00.840
you would want people to come to the funeral, and
581
00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:04.400
you would. And so I do kind of push back
582
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.000
on that a little bit, like, I don't know, I'll
583
00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:11.360
end it there. I don't want to be super unhelpful
584
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:13.719
in what I say about that, but I do think
585
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:17.800
we need to be careful that we are valuing every life.
586
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.360
And I think that's really important.
587
00:36:19.559 --> 00:36:22.039
I would push back on you. I don't think that
588
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.159
you're being unhelpful. I mean, sometimes you need to speak
589
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:29.760
harsh truths, because the whole reason that I wanted to
590
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:33.320
talk to you is because the silence is deafening. Yeah,
591
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:36.239
that we don't. I was largely I mean, like I said,
592
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.639
I came into contact with it as a teenager and
593
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:41.880
then I just kind of never really thought about it
594
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:46.280
again until I experienced it, right, because I mean, my
595
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:49.000
wife said that, And maybe it's just social media, she says,
596
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.840
I think things are turning around where people are willing
597
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:55.119
to talk about it a little bit more than maybe
598
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:59.760
they were before. Maybe that's just message boards or social media.
599
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:01.679
Not sure, I mean, do you have an opinion on that.
600
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.599
I do. I mean I think that I think, honestly,
601
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.039
it's kind of surprising, but I think that a lot
602
00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:11.000
of like people in the world, like in the culture,
603
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:13.719
are talking more about it, which is so confusing to
604
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.960
me because I'm like, I'm glad, but also I'm like,
605
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:21.000
that just doesn't make sense with your worldview about life
606
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:24.119
in the womb. But I definitely think, yeah, so it's
607
00:37:24.199 --> 00:37:25.239
it's confusing to me, But.
608
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:27.239
The dissonance is real.
609
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:31.559
Yeah, it's hard because I'm very much in those spaces
610
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.639
because of my book and because of my experience, and
611
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:38.840
so you know, I'm fed stuff about miscarriage all the time,
612
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.000
and so it's like, is it really being talked about
613
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.239
that much? Or is it just my algorithm?
614
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.760
It's true. Yeah, my wife tells me all the time.
615
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:50.639
She's like, people don't know what you're talking about. It
616
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:56.519
parties all the time and like all this theology. Yeah,
617
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:00.840
it's not it's your algorithm or whatever. You're so immersed
618
00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:02.559
in it, you think doesn't everybody talk about this.
619
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:06.719
It's so funny, so true though, Yeah, I mean.
620
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:11.039
The algorithm is real. How important would the psalms for you?
621
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:13.719
You talked about memorizing Psalm twenty three six.
622
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.760
Yeah, it was a vital I mean God just used
623
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.159
that Psalm specifically in my life in such a way
624
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:24.360
as I was preparing for like trying to become pregnant
625
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.400
and then also like through our miscarriages, like he just
626
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:32.159
because I had a lot of fear beforehand. I didn't
627
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:36.920
have rose colored glasses like I am fully expected because
628
00:38:36.920 --> 00:38:41.239
I'm a pessimist to experience some form of hardship with
629
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:44.519
trying to be pregnant. So I had a lot of fear,
630
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:49.320
and so I memorized Psalm twenty three. But yeah, the psalms. Man.
631
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:51.039
Every time I would try to get out of the
632
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:53.800
Psalms and go back to like doing my deep inductive
633
00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:57.559
Bible studies or something, I just would have like another
634
00:38:57.679 --> 00:39:00.760
miscarriage or another negative pregnancy tester, whatever it would be,
635
00:39:01.239 --> 00:39:04.440
and it would just like send me back to the Psalms.
636
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:08.360
So I am man. I just clung to the psalms
637
00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:12.119
for basically two years as we were going through our
638
00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:15.760
miscarriages and then as I was pregnant with my oldest son.
639
00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:21.239
Yeah, well, the fear is real. I mean once again,
640
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.719
like I said, as a man, it can be very
641
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.559
difficult because I don't understand things the way that you do,
642
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:32.199
and I never will, but I can try. And when
643
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:35.360
you write things when you're so vulnerable, and I told
644
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.159
you when we first started talking, how thankful I am
645
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:44.880
for you for doing that. Yeah, you talk about like
646
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:49.159
blood stained toilet paper, how every visit to the bathroom
647
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:50.920
is a battlefield.
648
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.440
Yeah.
649
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:55.559
I told you the story of my wife going to
650
00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:59.599
the bathroom, and every time she went to the bathroom,
651
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:02.920
I was like, oh, no, please God, no, please no,
652
00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:09.639
please no, please no. And now with that information, and
653
00:40:09.639 --> 00:40:17.400
and and we're hopeful for another pregnancy. But then that
654
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:22.440
doubt creeps in. Yeah, and you start thinking and every
655
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.559
visit to the bathroom is a battlefield. I started thinking
656
00:40:25.559 --> 00:40:28.440
about that, like, oh my goodness, that's something that I
657
00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:33.679
was completely ignorant of. That that anxiety, that pain, that
658
00:40:33.760 --> 00:40:37.880
kind of I hate. I forgive me for using this terminology,
659
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.719
But until you get to the finish line of a
660
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:44.599
completed pregnancy, that anxiety, I mean, how do you handle that?
661
00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:48.239
Yeah, it's it's really hard. And I think in the
662
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:53.719
chapter I write about that fear is that it's a
663
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:57.760
story of I start off the chapter saying, like to
664
00:40:57.840 --> 00:40:59.760
my husband, it was a conversation I was having with
665
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.519
about how I was just like, I just have this
666
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.760
feeling I'm going to have more miscarriages, and it just
667
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.320
was something I deeply felt was going to happen. And
668
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:14.320
at the end of the chapter I share that I
669
00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.800
did you know, like that fear did come true. And
670
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:22.719
yet God sustained me through it, sustained both of us.
671
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:26.599
He grew my faith through it. He just gave me
672
00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:30.760
such peace even in the midst of it. And so
673
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:34.960
I think we have this idea that we should be
674
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:38.239
able to just like pray once and like the fear
675
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.480
should just fall off our back. But that's not even
676
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:44.400
what we see Jesus do and get semony, you know,
677
00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:48.599
like he is so grieved and terrified about what is
678
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:53.079
to come, and he literally, I mean it's probably only
679
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:55.360
in the course of like an hour or two, he
680
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:59.559
prays like three times on his face he's going to
681
00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.440
the fall. They're over and over again, and begging him
682
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:07.519
and crying out to him. It sweating blood. And so
683
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.039
I think that he gives a really good example of
684
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:14.719
you know, when we are afraid, just because we go
685
00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:18.079
to God doesn't mean that we're going to just immediately
686
00:42:18.079 --> 00:42:22.800
feel better. We keep going to him over and over again.
687
00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.239
We go to him right before we go to the bathroom.
688
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:30.360
Every single time. We pray, just a silent prayer like Lord,
689
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.079
please sustain the life of my baby. Like that's I
690
00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:36.159
would say that all the time in my mind. It's
691
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:41.679
that silent prayer, and it's hard. I remember thinking, you know,
692
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:47.440
I think I was like with my oldest son, I was,
693
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:52.960
I want to say, like closing on thirty weeks or so,
694
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.840
and we were at an appointment and my husband was like,
695
00:42:56.960 --> 00:42:59.960
you know, you should probably sign up for a birth class,
696
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:03.719
and I just was like I couldn't even I was like,
697
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:05.119
I don't even know if I'm gonna get to do that,
698
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:10.559
Like I just like I couldn't. I don't know. I
699
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.920
just really struggled with even toying with that idea of
700
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.480
doing a birth class because I still was just in
701
00:43:18.519 --> 00:43:21.199
this mindset of like I could lose this baby at
702
00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:26.079
any minute. And part of that is, you know, we
703
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:30.480
lost three babies before him and so, and then at
704
00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:33.000
fourteen weeks with him, we had I had a lot
705
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:35.880
of spotting and I was just like, this is it,
706
00:43:36.239 --> 00:43:42.079
He's gone. But thankfully it wasn't, and and the Lord
707
00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:47.239
sustained his life and now he's almost seven. But it Yeah,
708
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:50.840
it's just there's so much fear, even if you've only
709
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:56.199
had one miscarriage, Like there is so much fear that
710
00:43:56.280 --> 00:43:59.199
like it's not innocent anymore, Like your eyes are just
711
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:03.519
so opened to the fear. Like pregnancy after loss is
712
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:05.239
just a battleground, it really is.
713
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:15.480
Yeah, Well, and don't you have enough faith? Like it
714
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:19.800
isn't that so painful? To hear because I used to
715
00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:25.239
be so chill, so chill, nothing bothered me, I nothing.
716
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:27.880
I wish I was like that. Well, I said, I
717
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:34.239
used to be. And during my grandmother's funeral, I had
718
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:38.480
a panic attack and there were a couple of reasons,
719
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:40.119
you know. I went to a doctor and they kind
720
00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:43.440
of explained what was happening. Everybody was like, oh, you know,
721
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.880
it's really death is hard. I was like, it's not Grandma.
722
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:49.320
Like I mean, I'm very sad and I love her,
723
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:52.440
but like she lived a very long life and I'm
724
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:55.079
not like having a panic attack because of this death.
725
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.639
It was all of these factors converging in my life
726
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:03.159
that I just broke and oh my goodness, I don't
727
00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:05.400
know if you've ever had a panic attack. Oh they
728
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:09.280
are any awful awful. I'd never, like I said, I
729
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:11.320
used to be so chill. I was the one people
730
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:13.519
went to when things are you know, we're in a
731
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:16.320
foreign country with like, yeah, I just work with young kids,
732
00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:19.199
and they'd go to me because I was just everything's
733
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:22.039
gonna be okay, and here I am having a panic attack.
734
00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.760
And I subsequently had about ten in a week. And
735
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:32.039
I've never felt anything like that. And glory to God.
736
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:38.880
I still suffer from anxiety for different reasons into different occasions,
737
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:43.280
but not like that. I mean that was unique. So
738
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:46.320
glory to God that those days are over four now.
739
00:45:47.239 --> 00:45:50.239
But there's always that fear even with that, that the
740
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:53.440
other shoe's going to drop that like, and when you're
741
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.840
feeling that way, at least for me personally, the thought
742
00:45:56.840 --> 00:46:00.000
that always goes to unbroken, I'm never gonna be right again.
743
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:03.400
I'm always going to feel this crippling anxiety or whatever
744
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:07.559
that panic attack is. But the one thing that's definitely
745
00:46:07.559 --> 00:46:10.519
not helpful is hearing you don't have enough faith?
746
00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:14.880
Yeah, just trust God? Why aren't you trusting God?
747
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.159
Yeah? Have you tried praying?
748
00:46:17.719 --> 00:46:17.920
Oh?
749
00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:19.679
Yeah, have I stopped?
750
00:46:21.639 --> 00:46:22.440
That's my favorite?
751
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:26.559
Like and there so I talk about that, you know,
752
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:30.119
that's tough. What are things that people need to stop
753
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.679
saying when it comes to miscarriage? That just.
754
00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:37.679
Yeah, so many things. I could just list them all
755
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:41.400
for rapid fire. I mean, all the at least comments right, like,
756
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.719
at least it was early, at least you can get pregnant,
757
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:48.480
at least you can just adopt, you know, just all
758
00:46:48.519 --> 00:46:54.719
of those different different at least comments. There's the well
759
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:58.199
you'll get pregnant again, like the almost just like a promise,
760
00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:02.840
like yeah, you're young, you'll get pregnant again. And it's like,
761
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:05.679
or you'll have another baby. It's like, well, I wanted
762
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:10.840
that baby so like that was a real life, living soul,
763
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:14.440
that was my child. I want that child. They're just
764
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:18.480
all so revealing of what we truly believe about life.
765
00:47:19.159 --> 00:47:23.519
I literally had a Christian who I truly believe is
766
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:25.199
so solid, and I think they were just trying to
767
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:29.119
make me feel better. I remember her saying, is it
768
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:33.199
even really a baby yet? I was nine and a
769
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:36.320
half weeks, Like, and even if it was said at
770
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:39.519
six weeks, it's still terrible and wrong. I've heard this
771
00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:42.039
one was more common than I even realized, which is
772
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:46.320
wild to me. But a lot of people will say, like, well,
773
00:47:46.599 --> 00:47:49.119
the Lord was probably sparing you from a child with
774
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:50.000
special needs.
775
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:51.719
You know.
776
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.639
There's so many things like that that just are so revealing.
777
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:00.280
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's an awful one. Yeah, I
778
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:08.519
mean it says a lot about how thin our anthropology
779
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:15.000
has become just in general. Yeah, what should we say?
780
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:17.760
Just I'm so sorry for the loss of your baby.
781
00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.280
I mean, any of those can be replaced with that. Yeah,
782
00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.480
you know, I'm so sorry for the loss of your baby.
783
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:27.880
Can I bring you a meal? You need groceries? How
784
00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:31.119
can I pray for you specifically in this moment, like
785
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:35.239
what is your greatest need? And sometimes they won't know
786
00:48:35.599 --> 00:48:39.719
what to say to that, but yeah, I just it
787
00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:43.920
really isn't that hard, Like it's really so simple, you know,
788
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:49.039
that's what you say to just be present? Yeah, and
789
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:52.440
be present, yes, yes, especially if you are someone that
790
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.960
is considered a close friend of the person, like be
791
00:48:56.079 --> 00:49:00.199
willing to come over and just sit and let them talk,
792
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:02.280
let them cry, let them just sit there in silence
793
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.119
if they want. Don't feel like you have to have
794
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:10.119
like all the answers, don't, you know, throw Bible verses
795
00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:14.719
at them every time they say something, you know, hold
796
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:18.519
back your well this is for your good, like it's true,
797
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:22.719
but this probably isn't the time to bring up Romans
798
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:23.400
eight twenty eight.
799
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:27.800
You know, yeah, yeah, I read the room, but.
800
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:28.760
Yeah read the room.
801
00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:31.239
Lord is the death of my baby good? I mean,
802
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:33.480
what about that question, because you said you said the
803
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:40.960
Lord would be sparing. I mean that's you touch it.
804
00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:47.800
Oh, one's so sad because it just shows like Okay,
805
00:49:47.880 --> 00:49:52.760
so we fight for these babies who have like Down
806
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:56.000
syndrome and different special needs. We fight for them to
807
00:49:56.119 --> 00:50:00.039
not be aborted, which we should, but then we're counting
808
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:02.719
it as a blessing when we think, well, maybe that
809
00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:06.079
was just a baby with special needs. And I'm just like,
810
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:10.280
and I don't want to discount the hardness of living,
811
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:13.559
like being a parent and parenting someone with special needs.
812
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.280
I mean, I can't even fathom how hard that is.
813
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.960
But I think if you asked any of those parents,
814
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:24.920
would you rather your baby have died? You know, I
815
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:28.440
don't think they would say yes, no. You know, well,
816
00:50:28.440 --> 00:50:30.199
that's why I struggle with the genetic testing.
817
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.519
Yeah, and what are you going to do? I mean,
818
00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:37.559
I'm sure it'd be good to know, but like, the
819
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:41.920
reason that that test exists is not primarily for awareness
820
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:45.320
for the future. It's to stop the future from happening,
821
00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:48.079
because I mean, it's the whole Icelandic thing that they're
822
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.639
so proud that they've eradicated Down syndrome. I mean, I
823
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:53.880
don't know if you've ever seen Shane Gillis talk about
824
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:57.079
Down syndrome, but you know, if you can stomach him,
825
00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:03.079
he's not for everybody, but he's a comedian and he basically,
826
00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:09.199
you know, talks about how they're angels. How could you not.
827
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:09.440
Want to be?
828
00:51:09.800 --> 00:51:14.119
Yeah, they're so nobody leaves an interaction with somebody who
829
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:17.679
has Down syndrome worse. I mean, they are so much
830
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.920
better than us in almost every way. And I mean
831
00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:25.400
I've talked about it with my wife, and my wife
832
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:29.360
constantly reminds me that's a lot of work. Because I'll
833
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.920
watch I don't know if you I can't remember what
834
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:32.559
the show is. I think it might be Love on
835
00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:36.079
the Spectrum, but it's one of those shows that explores
836
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:42.599
people who are neurodivergent. Yeah, and everyone who has Down syndrome.
837
00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:45.880
I'm like, they're the best, Like they are the best people.
838
00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:50.440
I remember this one girl and she was so excited
839
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:53.000
about going. You know, it was the year anniversary with
840
00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:55.000
the guy. So it was love on the Spectrum I
841
00:51:55.000 --> 00:51:59.199
think because they've been dating and she thinks that he's
842
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:03.039
going to propose, and she's so excited and he gives
843
00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.639
her like a one direction notebook or something like that.
844
00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:10.639
And if you thought you're you know, if you thought
845
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:12.440
your boyfriend was going to propose and he gave you
846
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:15.880
like a one direction notebook. He'd be pissed. Yeah, this,
847
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:19.840
she was like, I love it, Oh, I love it immediately,
848
00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:23.880
like corner turn. And it just I feel like we
849
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:26.960
have so much to learn from everybody. Yeah, no matter
850
00:52:27.039 --> 00:52:29.159
what I mean, when three men gather, one of them
851
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:32.239
as my teacher, and we have something to learn from everybody.
852
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.599
But the down syndrome, conversation or or special needs in general,
853
00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.719
it's so flawed, and it's so much worse when it
854
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:42.639
comes from the church.
855
00:52:43.159 --> 00:52:50.079
Yeah, yes, yeah, it's it's terrible. It's terrible, and the
856
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:55.440
world sees that. The world sees our hypocrisy, and so
857
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:59.360
we should repent of it and use say better things.
858
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:01.360
This is our witness of the world.
859
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:04.599
Yeah, and change our hearts, like change our beliefs about
860
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:05.320
life in the womb.
861
00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:10.360
Well, and it's it's a really hard test. Do you
862
00:53:10.519 --> 00:53:12.239
believe what you say you believe?
863
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:14.239
Yeah?
864
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:16.880
And those are I mean, those are really their gut
865
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:18.000
checks for all of us.
866
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:20.679
Yeah, And I do want to say, like some of
867
00:53:20.719 --> 00:53:24.480
those things are just passed down from the culture and
868
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:27.920
the world, Like they're the same things that people outside
869
00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:30.480
of the church say, you know, you'll have another baby,
870
00:53:30.519 --> 00:53:33.719
Like all of those things are very common that you
871
00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:36.079
might even see them in TV shows or movies, Like
872
00:53:36.079 --> 00:53:38.639
I've seen so many I can't even name them, but
873
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:41.519
like I know, I've seen stuff like that before. So
874
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:44.800
it's it's very cultural. And I think that's another check
875
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:46.840
for us as Christians, is like, are we just following
876
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:51.000
the culture and our speech about miscarriage because that's not good.
877
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.679
Let's not do that. Absolutely we are, and that's that's
878
00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:58.400
why I love that you didn't pull any bunches that
879
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:04.000
you say as a church and especially leaders, whether they're pastors, priests,
880
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:08.079
lay leaders, and we all need to be better. Yeah,
881
00:54:08.159 --> 00:54:10.360
I mean, do you have concrete steps of what we
882
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:12.719
can do? I mean outside of what you've already mentioned.
883
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:15.719
I mean things that we could bring to our leaders
884
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:18.360
in the church and say this, we aren't doing this
885
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:19.119
and we should.
886
00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.719
Yeah, I mean obviously, like I said, the mules thing,
887
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:25.199
I think that that's just a really simple way to
888
00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:28.480
minister to families who are going through miscarriage, especially I
889
00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:34.519
think about couples who have living children who are you know, young,
890
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:37.719
and then they're also going through miscarriage. Like we need
891
00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:41.000
to be ministering to these people too, because like they
892
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.280
have to still take care of their kids, so let's
893
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:45.440
ease up on that a little bit, like let's help
894
00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:47.960
help them in that way. But yeah, I mean just
895
00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:51.239
just being the hands and feet, but the pastors and
896
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.360
the elders of the church and like women's ministry directors,
897
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:57.960
like the leaders in the church, like they need to
898
00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:03.360
be modeling because it's so important. And obviously they can't
899
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:07.559
do all the things. But I do think that in
900
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:11.159
the way that they change their speech about miscarriage, that
901
00:55:11.159 --> 00:55:15.159
that will trickle down into the congregation. And I think
902
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:18.079
in my book I wrote at the end a little
903
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:22.320
note to pastors and was like you guys like you,
904
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:24.519
guys need to lead this up or head this up
905
00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:29.039
like you. This is important and pastors need to view
906
00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:32.880
it as important. So I don't have any concrete steps,
907
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:33.800
though I wish there was like a.
908
00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:39.800
Even just meals. I mean, my wife went through cancer
909
00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:45.239
a couple of years ago, and we both like to cook,
910
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:49.440
and we I mean, she had we had two young children,
911
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:52.800
so I mean, you're going through cancer treatment and two
912
00:55:52.880 --> 00:55:57.960
young children and it's just overwhelming. And man, I mean
913
00:55:58.639 --> 00:56:03.440
it's not like we needed the meals necessarily, but we
914
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:07.199
felt every single one. I mean, we live in the
915
00:56:07.199 --> 00:56:10.800
age of door dash. Every time somebody sent over, you know,
916
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.960
fifty bucks to get a meal, but just the thought
917
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:18.119
that people cared, I mean we and we were carried
918
00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:25.280
through by that, and it's I mean, there's a ripple effect.
919
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:29.199
It's contagious, and that's that's I mean. You talk about
920
00:56:29.199 --> 00:56:32.440
the twelve weeks rule, and we just recently, I mean
921
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:35.800
in the past month, experienced the high and the low
922
00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:39.039
of that of not following that rule. And one of
923
00:56:39.039 --> 00:56:41.440
the reasons that I'm not a martyr, but the reason
924
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:44.199
that I wanted to do that is I wanted to
925
00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:49.119
model this. I believe this, and and I wanted to
926
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:55.960
share every every emotion with the church body because you
927
00:56:56.320 --> 00:56:59.679
talk about how it's not just nice, it's necessary.
928
00:57:00.320 --> 00:57:05.360
Yeah, it is. And I think that God grieves miscarriage,
929
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:09.320
and we should grieve anything that God grieves, and I
930
00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.639
think we should rejoice over anything that God rejoices over,
931
00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:15.199
and He rejoices over every life he creates. And so
932
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:21.880
I think giving those babies that just proving their value
933
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:25.199
by what you did by rejoicing over them and sharing
934
00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:28.639
about their life and then also grieving them and naming
935
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.119
them like, that's just so beautiful, and I think it's
936
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:35.519
it can be one big way that we can push
937
00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:38.159
back against the grain.
938
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:43.800
Now, what about infertility, because in one of the at
939
00:57:43.880 --> 00:57:46.960
leasts that's the loaded part of it. At least you
940
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.000
can get pregnant. Yeah, how can we handle this for
941
00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:56.480
people who who suffer with or through infertility.
942
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:02.320
Yeah, it's always so tricky because I definitely felt like
943
00:58:02.440 --> 00:58:05.679
I was going through a part like a type of infertility,
944
00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:08.599
but I also felt like I couldn't claim that because
945
00:58:08.599 --> 00:58:12.559
I could get pregnant. But when you're dealing with recurrent
946
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:16.559
miscarriage and you have no living children, it feels I mean,
947
00:58:16.599 --> 00:58:18.920
you still have that sense of childlessness. Even though your
948
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:22.119
children were alive and they're in heaven now, there's still
949
00:58:22.159 --> 00:58:26.599
just this emptiness to your home where children should be,
950
00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:30.239
you know. And if the fall never happened, you know,
951
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:34.320
we would have our babies, and so like I yeah,
952
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.480
I remember, I can't remember if it was after my
953
00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:40.079
second or third miscarriage, but I had somebody was on
954
00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:42.800
a phone call and they were like, well, think of
955
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.039
so and so. They've been dealing with infertility for a while,
956
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:48.719
and like, at least you can get pregnant, and I
957
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:53.079
was just like, like in one fell swoop, you just
958
00:58:53.199 --> 00:58:56.519
like devalue the lives of all three of my babies
959
00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:58.639
or if it was two at the time, I can't remember.
960
00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:02.079
And it's like and you also just it's almost like
961
00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:05.960
you're just like, yeah, stop whining, Like at least you
962
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.880
don't have to never get pregnant. And there is such
963
00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:13.400
a different grief to that, Like I've I have friends
964
00:59:13.400 --> 00:59:17.360
who have experienced that, and it's so painful to never
965
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:21.719
for them to never get to experience pregnancy. And I'm
966
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:25.639
not saying that that's not awful and terrible, like it is,
967
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.239
but we don't have to compare, Like we can say
968
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.800
this is awful and this is awful, Like we don't
969
00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:36.119
have to like nobody should go to that person and say,
970
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:39.800
like the person battling in fertility and say, well, at
971
00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:42.440
least you didn't miscarry, like you know what I mean, Like,
972
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:46.559
and nobody does that either, at least I haven't ever
973
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:50.719
heard of that. And so yeah, I mean, it's just
974
00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:53.800
never helpful too. In my second book, I have a
975
00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:57.360
whole chapter about this on how like is it helpful
976
00:59:57.400 --> 01:00:00.400
to compare suffering? Like let's dig into that see, like
977
01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:03.639
when it's helpful, when it's not helpful, and it's usually not.
978
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:09.039
So yeah, comparative suffering.
979
01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:13.480
Just comparing, like just being like you know, like we
980
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:15.239
do it to ourselves. Like we'll be in a Bible
981
01:00:15.239 --> 01:00:18.440
study or something and we'll share something and then we'll
982
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:21.039
be like, wow, but I know, like so and so
983
01:00:21.119 --> 01:00:23.840
has it worse, and like I shouldn't complain, like they
984
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:26.880
have cancer, I shouldn't complain about my chronic fatigue or
985
01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:27.519
whatever it.
986
01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:31.440
Is, or starving children in China or Africa.
987
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:33.559
Right, Yeah, So we do it to ourselves, but then
988
01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:36.000
we do it to other people too when we're when
989
01:00:36.039 --> 01:00:39.679
we're seeing these at least comments or even like in
990
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:43.000
motherhoods specifically, like we will be like, well just wait
991
01:00:43.079 --> 01:00:46.320
until the teenage years. Then you'll know what it's like
992
01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:50.519
to suffer, you know, Because anyway, I could get on
993
01:00:50.559 --> 01:00:53.599
the soapbox about that because I love teens. I think
994
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:54.159
they're awesome.
995
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:57.159
But I hate it hard. I hate I hate, to
996
01:00:57.199 --> 01:00:59.559
be quite frank with you, I hate all of the
997
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:03.320
language that is just wait for how terrible it's going
998
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:09.320
to be, because so sad. It's every baby is a blessing,
999
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:15.199
every child, every you know, every it's the all the
1000
01:01:15.239 --> 01:01:20.159
things that people say you'll miss these days. Yeah, they're true. Yeah,
1001
01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:22.880
you know, it doesn't mean, I mean, it's kind of
1002
01:01:23.639 --> 01:01:26.079
doesn't mean that you want to be driven crazy by
1003
01:01:26.079 --> 01:01:29.599
your children, and there they can be drive you crazy.
1004
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:32.079
But it's so much fun too, it is, it is
1005
01:01:32.119 --> 01:01:36.320
so fun. It's I don't know, there's there's nothing that
1006
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:37.760
I love more than being a dad.
1007
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:42.000
Yeah me too, a mom, not a dad, well, parenting
1008
01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:49.039
and parenting together, and and you know, it's I don't think.
1009
01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:52.440
I think I read it in a in an article
1010
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:54.360
right before jumping on with you, so I was confusing
1011
01:01:55.239 --> 01:01:57.679
what that person wrote with what you said. But she
1012
01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:00.400
talked about and this is relevant to some degree, just
1013
01:02:00.440 --> 01:02:05.800
the importance of always putting your spouse first. It's so counterintuitive,
1014
01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.760
you think, No, I mean, my spouse has grown, this
1015
01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:12.800
is a child, they need me more. But by modeling,
1016
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:14.679
it's just this powerful thing. And I see it in
1017
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:18.800
my children's eyes, like I'll see them seeing me love
1018
01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:20.920
their mom, and then they're just kind of like staring
1019
01:02:20.920 --> 01:02:24.719
off in the corner like that's beautiful. The whole package,
1020
01:02:24.760 --> 01:02:27.880
the whole package of parenting, and there's nothing you want
1021
01:02:27.880 --> 01:02:31.880
to talk about. Something that drives me nuts is people
1022
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:34.239
who talk about how great they have it because they
1023
01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:35.000
don't have kids.
1024
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:38.000
Well, they're not weighing me down. I can do whatever
1025
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:41.400
I want. And I went to a wedding and I
1026
01:02:41.400 --> 01:02:42.159
feel like I.
1027
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:42.480
Was just do.
1028
01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:48.119
Like have baby patrol, where I'm just like, hey, you
1029
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:49.719
guys can't have kids? Are you gonna? And I know
1030
01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:52.800
that could be difficult because sometimes people can't, but there's
1031
01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:55.719
a difference between can't and don't want to? Yeah, and
1032
01:02:55.960 --> 01:02:57.920
they just over and over, Ah, no, I don't want to.
1033
01:02:58.199 --> 01:02:59.760
I mean, do you know how good our life is?
1034
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:01.719
Just in a rub? But then we're going here, I'm like,
1035
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:04.519
you have no idea what you're missing out on. Yeah,
1036
01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:07.280
And I cannot get off of that soapbox for any
1037
01:03:07.320 --> 01:03:10.199
amount of time because if you were able to, and
1038
01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:13.519
this is relevant to the conversation, because I'm sure you
1039
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:16.199
could have quit. Yeah, you said you wanted to, that
1040
01:03:16.239 --> 01:03:18.599
you didn't want to keep trying because if it's so painful,
1041
01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:20.000
but it's also so worth it.
1042
01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:27.519
M Yeah, it's funny because I I was so afraid
1043
01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:31.800
of motherhood and so afraid of pregnancy in particular that
1044
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:36.440
I remember praying beforehand, like when we were beginning to
1045
01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:38.679
try for a family, Like I was just like worried,
1046
01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:41.039
You're going to have to like make me desire to
1047
01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:44.239
be a mom, because like it's not that I didn't
1048
01:03:44.280 --> 01:03:46.119
desire it, but I just didn't have that Like I
1049
01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:48.519
didn't grow up dreaming about being a mom. Like I
1050
01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:52.800
just wasn't that person. And I just felt like I
1051
01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:54.840
have no idea what I'm doing. I never I like
1052
01:03:54.880 --> 01:03:58.159
babysat like once maybe in my life, you know, like
1053
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:01.840
I just was I felt so ill equipped. But through
1054
01:04:01.880 --> 01:04:05.239
these miscarriages, he answered that prayer, because as soon as
1055
01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:08.519
I lost a baby, I was like I knew I
1056
01:04:08.559 --> 01:04:11.440
was missing like even just the love, like I didn't
1057
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:15.079
get to experience raising the child. But like just like
1058
01:04:15.800 --> 01:04:18.679
I loved that baby. I didn't even know who they
1059
01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:24.760
were and I loved them. And I sorry, I got
1060
01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:27.920
a little confused or like up in my head because
1061
01:04:28.119 --> 01:04:30.599
there might have been two in that pregnancy. And I
1062
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:34.039
always like struggle with like did I lose four babies?
1063
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:37.119
Did I lose three babies? I don't know. But we
1064
01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:40.679
had that roller coaster with our first miscarriage as well,
1065
01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:44.760
where we were like started spottying went to the doctor.
1066
01:04:44.840 --> 01:04:47.719
There was a strong heartbeat. But then like the doctor
1067
01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.000
called me the next day and was like, there's some
1068
01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:54.400
stuff in your ultrasound that looks like you might have
1069
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:58.480
experience finishing twin syndrome, but like we can't ever know
1070
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:02.480
for sure because we never saw another man. And I
1071
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:05.760
was like eight weeks when I went and got the ultrasound,
1072
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:09.480
and the other baby was small. It was like seven weeks,
1073
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:13.199
but that's normal for twin pregnancies, So like's it was
1074
01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:16.119
just like up in the air thing. But I remember
1075
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:18.960
we were leaving and we were just like crying in
1076
01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:22.760
excitement and just like we were on top of the world.
1077
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:27.400
And then a week later I started truly miscarrying the
1078
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:30.480
other baby. And so anyway, yeah, I just get that
1079
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:34.480
that roller coaster and how painful that is. Anyway, I
1080
01:05:34.480 --> 01:05:36.199
don't even know where I was going with that. I
1081
01:05:36.280 --> 01:05:39.880
got so lost in my head. Sorry, no, it's up.
1082
01:05:40.320 --> 01:05:44.079
What have these lost children given you that you couldn't
1083
01:05:44.079 --> 01:05:46.000
have received in any other way? I mean you say
1084
01:05:46.079 --> 01:05:47.199
lost gifts?
1085
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.800
Yeah, yeah, I mean just like I said that that
1086
01:05:50.960 --> 01:05:54.480
answer to prayer, seeing God work in my heart in
1087
01:05:54.559 --> 01:05:59.119
so many ways even and Honestly, my second book kind
1088
01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:01.599
of is is where I dive into this more like
1089
01:06:02.480 --> 01:06:08.400
a refined theology of suffering. Like we were also experiencing
1090
01:06:09.360 --> 01:06:12.880
right after So I was pregnant with my fourth child,
1091
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:17.039
So my son, my oldest son, and we were experiencing
1092
01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:21.079
spiritual abuse when he was very early in the womb,
1093
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:24.840
and it was regarding how I handled my suffering or
1094
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:28.159
my miscarriages. So I was told I was too downcast
1095
01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:31.639
during my miscarriages, and they kind of deemed me as
1096
01:06:31.679 --> 01:06:35.840
immature because of that. These were elders in my church,
1097
01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:40.440
my last church, and so I just went through so
1098
01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:44.199
much like not only the miscarriages, but then like the
1099
01:06:44.239 --> 01:06:49.559
spiritual abuse that was brought on by the miscarriages, not
1100
01:06:49.760 --> 01:06:52.760
the babies themselves, but like just the suffering and the
1101
01:06:52.800 --> 01:06:55.199
way that I because I cried a lot. I just
1102
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:58.199
cry a lot. Okay, I cry all the time at
1103
01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:02.679
church when I'm happy. Yeah yeah, but anyway, right enough,
1104
01:07:03.960 --> 01:07:07.000
my DearS were just judged and my vulnerability was really
1105
01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:11.480
used against me as ammo and yeah, even though those
1106
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:15.079
things were horrible, like God just used it in such
1107
01:07:15.119 --> 01:07:17.960
a huge way to refine my view of suffering and
1108
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:21.239
how I handle other people suffering and the way that
1109
01:07:21.280 --> 01:07:24.320
I relate to them, and just the compassion I have
1110
01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:27.800
for people. I am so grateful for that. Obviously I
1111
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.639
wish I had my babies, but I'm very grateful for that.
1112
01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:33.119
Yeah, well, I mean, you wrote an entire book on it,
1113
01:07:33.159 --> 01:07:37.079
so I can't expect you to summise it that. Yeah,
1114
01:07:37.119 --> 01:07:40.119
the theology of suffering. You know, when when my dad
1115
01:07:40.159 --> 01:07:42.800
was going through cancer, he read a book called The
1116
01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:47.400
Theology of Illness and it really turned illness on its
1117
01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:49.039
head and in a lot of the ways that we
1118
01:07:49.079 --> 01:07:51.079
would view it in the same way that maybe the
1119
01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:55.920
emotional prosperity Gospel might view illness, and that sometimes illness
1120
01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:58.079
is a gift from God. I mean, there's a quote
1121
01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:02.280
I can't remember. I always forget who said it, but
1122
01:08:02.440 --> 01:08:06.880
she said, illness before death is one of God's great gifts.
1123
01:08:08.599 --> 01:08:12.639
And it sounds especially to the culture at large, a
1124
01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:16.039
non Christian culture, what are you taking like the masochistics?
1125
01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:19.279
That is what sounds like. But it's in that suffering
1126
01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:22.000
when you truly experience the presence of God in a
1127
01:08:22.039 --> 01:08:23.960
way that you experience, you lean on Him in a
1128
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:27.119
way because you're not as you're not under the illusion
1129
01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:28.239
of self sufficiency.
1130
01:08:28.840 --> 01:08:32.840
Yeah, which is an illusion, yeah for sure, but I
1131
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:37.920
would I would actually take it a step further. I'm
1132
01:08:37.920 --> 01:08:41.920
gonna push back because I have I've a chapter in
1133
01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:44.920
my second book where I answer the question is suffering
1134
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:46.960
a gift? And so I have like a whole chapter
1135
01:08:47.000 --> 01:08:50.960
where I've dove into this because I used to say that.
1136
01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:55.199
I used to say, you know, sufferings gift. But I
1137
01:08:55.279 --> 01:08:58.319
think that that points us to the suffering instead of
1138
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:01.680
to God in the suffering. And it might sound nitpicky,
1139
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:04.760
but I think it for me, it's more helpful to
1140
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:09.000
think of it as like just remembering that God is
1141
01:09:09.079 --> 01:09:11.760
good in suffering. So like the suffering himself is not
1142
01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:15.680
a gift, but God is the gift, like more of him,
1143
01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:18.840
communion with him, like just how He carries us through
1144
01:09:18.880 --> 01:09:20.439
all those things is like the gift.
1145
01:09:20.640 --> 01:09:23.960
And so that's not a pushback. That's a clarification.
1146
01:09:24.319 --> 01:09:26.560
Yeah, that's what I mean. That's a clarifications.
1147
01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:30.239
That's a dive deeper because it reminds me of a
1148
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:35.239
quote like don't don't worry about darkness or evil. Let
1149
01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:39.439
evil be turn towards Christ. Even if it's just a
1150
01:09:39.479 --> 01:09:43.960
pinhole light will eventually fill the room if you focus
1151
01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:46.720
in that direction. And that's really what's meant by that.
1152
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:49.199
It's not that suffering is good. So it's not that
1153
01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:51.319
death is good. Death is never good. The death of
1154
01:09:51.359 --> 01:09:54.840
your baby is never good. But you can find goodness
1155
01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:57.600
in it. Yes, And there's a difference, and there's nuance,
1156
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:01.279
and with nuance is a lost ark. Oh yeah, but
1157
01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:04.800
always push back if you think that there's room for clarification.
1158
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:06.680
That's the whole point of having a conversation.
1159
01:10:07.119 --> 01:10:09.279
Yeah, thanks for allowing me to.
1160
01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:12.760
Oh, thank you for doing it. The God of all Comfort?
1161
01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:13.520
Why that verse?
1162
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:19.600
I mean, I just am so grateful for the way
1163
01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:23.319
that Christ has comforted me in my suffering. But then also,
1164
01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:27.199
like the verse continues to say, it's like he gives
1165
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:30.479
us that comfort to give to others, and so that
1166
01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.760
grows us in compassion, and we're able to comfort others
1167
01:10:33.960 --> 01:10:36.359
when they're going through their own different trials. And it
1168
01:10:36.439 --> 01:10:40.199
says in any trial, so it's not just the same
1169
01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:43.640
exact thing you've gone through, but any suffering you face
1170
01:10:44.199 --> 01:10:48.319
should refine you to be able to have more compassion
1171
01:10:48.399 --> 01:10:51.520
and be able to come alongside different sufferers.
1172
01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:56.000
Beautiful, Well, this is commitment to reality. So I do
1173
01:10:56.079 --> 01:11:00.159
want to ask you some questions about reality. Okay, we
1174
01:11:00.239 --> 01:11:01.840
most eager to ignore reality?
1175
01:11:03.479 --> 01:11:13.439
Hmmm, I mean probably death. Is that a weird answer?
1176
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:16.199
I just feel like we try to hide ourselves from it,
1177
01:11:16.359 --> 01:11:19.600
you know, we really try to just like pretend like
1178
01:11:19.680 --> 01:11:23.680
it's not going to catch up to us. Yeah, I
1179
01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:24.800
think that would be my answer.
1180
01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:26.880
It's a great answer. I don't think that we do.
1181
01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:30.720
And I think it's relevant. I mean, everything is miscarriage, no,
1182
01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:34.079
but miscarriage is death, yeah, and we treat we should
1183
01:11:34.159 --> 01:11:37.680
treat it as such. But death is in our modern
1184
01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:42.520
culture so sanitized. Yes, I mean it's beep beep, beep,
1185
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:44.880
and then when you hear the flat line, you get
1186
01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:48.760
wheeled out of the room. You don't smell the body decomposing.
1187
01:11:48.800 --> 01:11:51.800
I mean, not to be graphic, but I mean historically speaking,
1188
01:11:52.439 --> 01:11:56.159
we were surrounded by death. It was something that you encountered.
1189
01:11:56.600 --> 01:11:59.920
And now because it's so sanitized and it's dealt by
1190
01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:04.760
it's dealt with by other people, we don't truly experience death.
1191
01:12:05.119 --> 01:12:09.439
I mean, that's a that's a fantastic answer, because there's
1192
01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:12.439
so many different ways that that affects us, and we
1193
01:12:12.479 --> 01:12:14.840
don't recognize its reality.
1194
01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:17.000
Right, like, and it's a blessing in a lot of
1195
01:12:17.039 --> 01:12:20.880
ways because obviously, you know, we can have these memorial
1196
01:12:20.960 --> 01:12:25.239
services and like these sweet you know, goodbyes, but I
1197
01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:27.920
that they didn't have back then, like you had to
1198
01:12:27.920 --> 01:12:30.359
get the body in the ground, like within a few hours.
1199
01:12:30.399 --> 01:12:34.720
And so yeah, I mean there's there's definitely some prose
1200
01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:38.279
to it. But it's also just like you said, like
1201
01:12:39.399 --> 01:12:44.560
I think, especially for a dying world, like spiritually dying world,
1202
01:12:46.119 --> 01:12:49.039
it's a like it does a disservice to them because
1203
01:12:49.079 --> 01:12:52.319
they're not facing like death all the time and facing
1204
01:12:52.359 --> 01:12:54.479
this big question of like where do I go when
1205
01:12:54.520 --> 01:12:58.239
I die? You know? And and I think that that
1206
01:12:58.479 --> 01:13:00.439
is I mean, we still face death all time, but
1207
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:02.279
not in the ways that they did in the past,
1208
01:13:02.399 --> 01:13:04.239
like you're describing.
1209
01:13:04.199 --> 01:13:08.239
No, and you're right, I mean it we're entertaining ourselves
1210
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:11.199
to death or whatever the sort of spins on that
1211
01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:15.279
where we're just numb and we we don't. I really
1212
01:13:16.439 --> 01:13:19.039
one of the main reasons that I felt convicted about
1213
01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:24.000
starting this project is I think, more so than any
1214
01:13:24.079 --> 01:13:26.520
period in human history, we are not confronted with the
1215
01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:30.800
big questions. Yeah, and you talk about pushing back. Pushing back.
1216
01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:35.640
It's funny that you almost felt like you weren't allowed
1217
01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:39.279
to do that, when that's that's what we should be
1218
01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:44.199
doing in every circumstance. I talked about cognitive dissonance earlier. Says,
1219
01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:48.359
Wait a minute, so you're mourning this miscarriage, yet you're
1220
01:13:49.239 --> 01:13:54.640
celebrating abortion. Yeah, how can you? I mean, or just
1221
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:58.079
all of these cognitively distant ideas that people hold, you
1222
01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:01.199
should point out the contradiction. I mean, having a well
1223
01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:03.399
formed worldview is the most important thing we can do
1224
01:14:03.479 --> 01:14:06.520
in our life. That's why we're here to kind of
1225
01:14:07.159 --> 01:14:12.159
and you know, I think not encountering death in the
1226
01:14:12.159 --> 01:14:14.680
way that we historically have in the sanitized sense that
1227
01:14:14.720 --> 01:14:19.039
it is now, I think there's a real we don't
1228
01:14:19.079 --> 01:14:20.680
recognize reality because of it.
1229
01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:23.600
Yeah, totally, I agree.
1230
01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:27.520
So in a world that feels increasingly unreal, what feels
1231
01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:28.199
most real to.
1232
01:14:28.199 --> 01:14:38.960
You, hm, my kids. You know, Like I just one
1233
01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:40.720
of the coolest things about being a parent that I
1234
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:43.840
know you'll probably agree with is just like watching them
1235
01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:47.760
learn and grow and like living life through them again.
1236
01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:51.800
You know, like I never cared about dump trucks, and
1237
01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:54.239
now like I'm on the side of where I'm like, oh,
1238
01:14:54.279 --> 01:14:56.039
I wish I could show the you o that dump truck,
1239
01:14:56.159 --> 01:14:58.560
like you know, like he'd think that's so cool. And
1240
01:14:58.800 --> 01:15:03.000
it's just like it gives you this exuberance and I
1241
01:15:03.039 --> 01:15:07.279
don't know, just this joy that is it points for
1242
01:15:07.359 --> 01:15:10.760
me personally, like my children constantly point me back to
1243
01:15:10.840 --> 01:15:15.000
the Creator and just the way that their brains work,
1244
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:19.399
like I'm homeschooling my oldest and honestly, like I feel
1245
01:15:19.399 --> 01:15:22.399
like God is just homeschooling because I'm like, I'm just
1246
01:15:22.399 --> 01:15:24.479
like going through the curriculum, but he's the one that's
1247
01:15:24.520 --> 01:15:28.800
just learning and like it God built him that way,
1248
01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:32.560
like babies learn to crawl on their own, like babies
1249
01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:34.319
learn to roll over on their own, Like God just
1250
01:15:34.439 --> 01:15:38.600
built them to like do things. And I just I
1251
01:15:38.600 --> 01:15:41.520
don't know, it's just amazing to me. So I think
1252
01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:43.760
they make God more real to me.
1253
01:15:44.439 --> 01:15:48.319
Absolutely. I see the face of God and my children
1254
01:15:48.399 --> 01:15:51.520
and and and I talked about in a previous podcast.
1255
01:15:51.560 --> 01:15:53.079
A friend of mine sent me a text. He said,
1256
01:15:53.079 --> 01:15:57.359
how do I how do I balance loving God and
1257
01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:00.720
loving my children and my family? How do I give
1258
01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:04.119
them the equal weight that they deserved? And I thought
1259
01:16:04.199 --> 01:16:08.079
I was staring at the text. It's a false dichotomy.
1260
01:16:08.319 --> 01:16:10.640
You love God through your children, and you see the
1261
01:16:10.640 --> 01:16:15.439
face of God through them. I mean, it's nothing made
1262
01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:19.760
the whole father son component come to life more or
1263
01:16:19.800 --> 01:16:24.800
like unconditional love, like I love this child way more
1264
01:16:24.840 --> 01:16:27.399
than I love myself. Do I always act that way?
1265
01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:32.439
Maybe not, you know, we live in perfect lives. But man,
1266
01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:35.279
what I do and and the joy that I feel,
1267
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:40.199
I mean, I constantly crossing myself as a as a
1268
01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:44.159
sign of just gratitude, like I love these kids. There's
1269
01:16:44.199 --> 01:16:46.560
such a blessing. And that's also why to bring it home,
1270
01:16:47.039 --> 01:16:50.960
why it hurts so much? Yes, you know. So I'll
1271
01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:54.119
ask you one more question. Okay, how many kids do
1272
01:16:54.159 --> 01:16:54.359
you have?
1273
01:16:55.800 --> 01:17:01.039
I have, let's see one. I think six, but maybe
1274
01:17:01.079 --> 01:17:02.840
just five because we don't know about the twin.
1275
01:17:03.840 --> 01:17:05.920
It's a tough question. But how can we, I mean,
1276
01:17:06.159 --> 01:17:10.399
how can we encourage people to answer that question? Dare
1277
01:17:10.439 --> 01:17:14.520
I say honestly? Because I don't even, Like I said,
1278
01:17:15.159 --> 01:17:17.960
my parents say that they have thirteen children, and they've
1279
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:21.239
never once wavered on that. I mean, they have always
1280
01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:26.039
counted the miscarriage confidently as a witness. And I shuddered
1281
01:17:26.439 --> 01:17:29.560
and I would, I would actively fight against it. You know.
1282
01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:33.000
I grew up one of eight before my parents subsequently adopted,
1283
01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:37.279
and whenever I heard nine, I was like, so it
1284
01:17:37.359 --> 01:17:40.439
was as the kids all cringe, it felt cringe to me.
1285
01:17:41.279 --> 01:17:46.119
It felt so outwardly like faithful. But isn't that the
1286
01:17:46.119 --> 01:17:48.720
way that we should be, like, you know, like stop
1287
01:17:48.840 --> 01:17:51.000
beating people over the head with your beliefs. Not everybody
1288
01:17:51.000 --> 01:17:54.399
believes that's a baby, and and so the way that
1289
01:17:54.439 --> 01:17:58.000
we I mean, it's even in the church, we don't
1290
01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:01.000
do that. And so that's why I'm do you have
1291
01:18:01.079 --> 01:18:04.880
an admonishment or an encouragement for people to say, you know,
1292
01:18:05.119 --> 01:18:06.960
I'm Dave and I have four children.
1293
01:18:07.319 --> 01:18:12.279
Yeah, I mean, we're supposed to be truth tellers, and
1294
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:13.960
I'm not going to like say that people are like
1295
01:18:14.119 --> 01:18:17.920
lying or like sinning when they don't share. I do
1296
01:18:18.000 --> 01:18:21.119
think there can be context where it's hard and can
1297
01:18:21.279 --> 01:18:24.119
bring up more hurt because of doctors and you know
1298
01:18:24.159 --> 01:18:27.680
how people are. But also I do kind of wonder
1299
01:18:27.720 --> 01:18:30.880
what that doctor experience I shared earlier, like maybe maybe
1300
01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.319
God used that somehow, you know, like maybe she at
1301
01:18:34.359 --> 01:18:38.359
some point was like, wait, I don't know, God could
1302
01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:43.079
use it, and so yeah, I mean, if we're called
1303
01:18:43.079 --> 01:18:46.800
to be truth tellers, then let's tell the truth about that.
1304
01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:51.439
Too, amen. I mean with the doctor. I mean, there's
1305
01:18:51.439 --> 01:18:53.000
a story that I haven't told in the podcast yet.
1306
01:18:53.000 --> 01:18:56.399
I'm going to save it. But when my my wife,
1307
01:18:56.680 --> 01:19:00.800
like I said, she she went through cancer, and so
1308
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:03.079
when she met with her on collogists and said I
1309
01:19:03.119 --> 01:19:06.319
want to try and have another child, and she gave
1310
01:19:06.359 --> 01:19:10.159
the whole story behind it. Their response was, your faith
1311
01:19:10.159 --> 01:19:13.880
has carried you this far, why would we counter it.
1312
01:19:14.600 --> 01:19:17.560
So she's witnessing to it. You know, my aunt Jobi,
1313
01:19:17.640 --> 01:19:21.720
who we named the second Lost Child after partially you
1314
01:19:21.720 --> 01:19:24.720
know boy girl, we don't know, but the name is
1315
01:19:24.760 --> 01:19:29.159
the same. She went through and she still is going
1316
01:19:29.199 --> 01:19:33.399
through recogn number of like one hundred chemotherapy sessions and
1317
01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:36.640
she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer several years ago. I mean,
1318
01:19:36.680 --> 01:19:40.159
that's the fact that she's still here and she always
1319
01:19:40.159 --> 01:19:43.439
went into every session as this is my mission, feel,
1320
01:19:43.960 --> 01:19:47.560
this is where I bear witness to my faith in Christ,
1321
01:19:48.399 --> 01:19:51.159
you know, and she's done it. I mean, she's one
1322
01:19:51.159 --> 01:19:54.399
of my heroes for it. So we always have an
1323
01:19:54.399 --> 01:19:58.439
opportunity that's patiful to be the hands and feet, but
1324
01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:02.439
also the voice. Yeah, and speak that truth in love,
1325
01:20:02.800 --> 01:20:06.039
never obnoxiously, but with love. So thank you, thank you
1326
01:20:06.079 --> 01:20:08.760
so much for like I said, your your ministry and
1327
01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:11.560
your willingness. It's you. Never get to be the fun
1328
01:20:11.640 --> 01:20:15.960
guest who comes on it and talks about But there's
1329
01:20:16.319 --> 01:20:19.199
glory to God in all things. Like you said, He's
1330
01:20:19.239 --> 01:20:20.199
the God of all comfort.
1331
01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:22.800
Yeah. I told my friends I need to write about
1332
01:20:22.840 --> 01:20:27.000
flowers or something next, like just something like so joyful. Yeah.
1333
01:20:27.039 --> 01:20:29.840
Well, you're a great writer and I think that you
1334
01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:32.359
will so. Britney Leone, thank you so much for joining
1335
01:20:32.359 --> 01:20:34.239
me on commitment to reality. I thank God for you.
1336
01:20:34.680 --> 01:20:35.399
Thanks so much.