WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to Comic Boom, the Comics and Education podcast.
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If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you.
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My name is Lucy Star Bradly, and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic, a librarian, or a creator of comics, to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice, and hopefully as well shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries and classrooms, and hopefully onto your bookshelves at home too.
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This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by A LCS, the author's licensing and collecting society, and it is absolutely great to be back.
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We've got some brilliant episodes to share with you over the next few weeks.
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This season is gonna be split into two.
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We'll be running five episodes this term in the summer, taken a short break.
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And then coming back with another five episodes in the autumn term.
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I've got so much good content to bring you.
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thanks again to the brilliant A LCS, the authors licensing and collecting society for keeping the mics hot and the lights on for Helping me run the podcast again for another year.
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I really, really appreciate the support and I'll be talking a little bit more about their work at the end of the episode to kickstart this season of Comic Boom.
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I am talking to Edward Ross.
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Edward Ross is an Edinburgh based comic book writer, artist, and illustrator with an early obsession and interest in cinema and comics.
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It wasn't until after studying film at university that he managed to combine these two interests and form his first self-published comics.
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Film ish comics and we'll be talking a lot about that today.
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Edwards and I do go off slightly off track and talk a little bit about film, but I think it's really interesting'cause it's all part of his journey and really interlinked with his first graphic novel, film ish, a graphic novel through film, which was published by Self-Made Hero.
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that was an award-winning book and it's a really, really interesting read.
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And then he went on to create Gamish, a graphic history of gaming.
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I'm really interested in that link between different cultural elements, film games and comics, and how they all interlink and inform each other, and I find it a really fascinating conversation.
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we also talk about his latest book.
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Graphic Novel Builder, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics, which is a fun and accessible guide to creativity for ages 11 plus.
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I think definitely one for year five and six would really enjoy in primary.
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so yeah, I'd, I'd nudge that a little bit earlier.
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To maybe nine, plus.
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Edward's also worked in a number of science themed comics in collaboration with Dr.
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James Hall for universities, for museums, charities to explain and bring to life the kind of scientific concepts that they're working with and bring that to a wider audience through, comics.
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It's a really interesting area, these science comics, and we talk about that as well.
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There was so much to talk about with Edward.
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I had an absolutely brilliant time.
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I think you really enjoy this episode.
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Here's what Edward had to say.
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Hello Edward.
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Welcome to Comic Boom.
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Hi.
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Thank you for having me.
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Can you tell us to start off, I always start the episode by, asking people to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader.
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So when did you first start to read comics?
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When did that sort of become part of your life?
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I think as long as I can remember really, I grew up reading, the Beano and, uh, not the Dandy.
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I I was like a Beano head uh, always, even, even had a sort of element of, um, suspicion when Dandy characters ended up kind of joining the Beano.
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I was like, I'm not sure.
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I don't know.
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I dunno why.
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Um, but, um, but yeah, the Beano was huge for me growing up.
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I remember I had a huge, like an enormous stack.
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Almost falling over next to my bed
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And did you know it was Scottish at the time?
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No, no, I didn't, I didn't appreciate it was Scottish for until I was, I think maybe still while I was still reading a bit older, but certainly not for a long time.
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But I know the, the, the legacy of Scottish comics is strong.
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Um,
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Yeah,
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but I did obviously know that er, Willie and the Bruins were Scottish,
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yeah,
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of hard to miss.
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I loved er Willie and I hated the Bruss.
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I dunno, I couldn't get with that, but, um, yeah, definitely the Beano and then we had, my brother had a sort of big stack of, um, those peanuts mini collections, and we had a bunch of those with the covers falling off.
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so I grew up loving those.
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And I think with peanuts and then with Calvin and Hobbs, which is my, my true love in comics.
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too.
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I think that was, I think that's what sustained me kind of a bit older in a way.
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Because with, certainly, well with both of them, but with Calvin Hobbs especially, there's so much to go back to.
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So as you become an adolescent and then a teenager, you can actually go back and you just rediscover all these new things
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the layers of meaning in it.
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Yeah,
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I was in a high school yesterday and when I was mentioning Calvin Hobbs, the blank stares,'cause obviously it's a cultural thing.
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It's not really relevant anymore.
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But I was like, oh, but you, I was just thinking if I could convince one of these kids to pick up Calvin and hopes that would be a win.
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Yeah.
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if I do teacher training about comics.
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At the end I always like to share like the final, ever the last ever Calvin Hobbs where they like going off on a toboggan.
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I just think it's really poignant.
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I love
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Oh yeah.
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It's so good.
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Yeah, and I think to this day, I, it is something I aspire to in my own work where possible is just capturing some of that spirit, you know, uh, I guess like a, a mixture of kind of childlike wonder and, that sort of depth, that emotional and, and philosophical depth as well.
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I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm achieving that.
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I'm just saying that I would like to achieve, I would like to aspire to that.
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And, and I always keep that in mind as, as something that, that kind of level of, um, accessibility and then depth, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it is incredible.
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and I think it because of the characters, I feel like people could easily just walk on by or like dismiss it with, without realizing quite how great it is.
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so in terms of this comic reading that you were doing, you when you were younger, who instigated that?
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Was that your, were your parents really supportive?
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Was it part of your reading diet at school?
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Were comics embraced in, in school as you were growing up, how did that fit in?
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de definitely.
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Yeah.
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No, definitely not exactly.
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You know, like there was, I, I can't remember even mention, I think it was definitely separated.
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It was two things.
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There was going home and reading comics, and there was going to school and, and not, you know, I think in a sense a lot of it was like.
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I mean, with the Beano, there's such a legacy in that.
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Like I think, you know, my dad probably read up, grew up, grew up reading it, and certainly my brother, who's a bit older than me grew up reading the Beanos.
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So I had, a legacy stack of, you know, seventies and or, and eighties Beanos, to get me started.
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So I think it, I think it was very much that it was kind of, they, they were around, around the house and um, and then my, my, uh, my nana used to, used to cut, we Oor Willie and the Broons out of, is it the Sunday post and post them to us,
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Cute.
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very sweet.
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And what is it that you think pulled you in?
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Was it, drawing, the artistic side, the story?
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Or was it that sort of essential combination of both?
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Yeah, I mean, I was like, oh, you know, I grew up definitely being a huge drawer and I was making comics probably from the age of about eight or nine myself.
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Um.
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So I think it was always the both of it.
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And I, yeah.
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Good.
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Any good question.
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I think I, I, I drew, I think I drew to tell stories, if that makes sense.
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So it wasn't like, and although I would've loved to have drawn better, I never was drawing to draw.
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Well, if that
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As like practicing it as a skill, it was
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yeah.
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I was, I, I, I never really kinda got into, I mean, I did a bit of it, but I never really got into like, you know, drawing still lifes or, or, um, or even like, even like now, like I've barely done any, like life drawing, you know?
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So it's like, it was never, the technical end of it was never that, interesting to me.
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It was, it was always much more the opportunity to tell stories and to draw fun things and, and have, have fun with it.
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Yeah.
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so we've heard a little bit about what you're reading when you were younger.
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What kind of things are in your reading diet now?
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I, I kinda went off reading for a really long time, I think in post university I fell off all my good habits of reading and of even what, like,'cause I went to study film and even like watching like interesting movies fell off for a while as well.
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It was
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Yeah, I, I did film at uni as well, and I, I still haven't really picked it back up watching films.
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I just like, yeah, I want to, I've got children now.
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I find it, like, I feel like I'm got, sorry, this is slightly off track, but justifying, getting a babysitter to go to the cinema just seems, seems a step too far for me.
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I just, I feel like I'm gonna, when I'm in my next, the next decade, that's when I'm gonna read.
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That's when my indie film Love is gonna come back.
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I can feel it.
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so we, we were similar, but we had kids and, and that was like a big thing.
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And then, and then covid and then, and then kinda falling off that habit.
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So yeah, I have to say I've not been to the cinema hardly any in the last few years, but, um, what we started doing again, we're very much off topic, but what we started doing was, uh, having, um, home film festivals.
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So
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Oh, cute.
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we'll pick a theme and then me and my partner will pick a bunch of films to watch together.
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So she'll pick some and I'll pick some, and then we'll kind of watch, watch along across a theme.
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And it's actually been a really fun way to get started again.
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And to also like challenge yourselves a bit because you're searching for.
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Those gems within that theme.
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So we did a season on train films, for example, film set on trains.
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uh, but that like, and you know, you end up kind of within that, you've got all sorts of things you can be drawing on.
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You can have thrillers, action movies, or you can have like intimate little dramas that are set in, you know, on a train or, um, so, so that's been a really good way for us to get back into watching films.
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And I, what I found it really interesting was I, you know, I guess through like turbulent political times and having kids and covid and all that, it's like you often turn to entertainment for that.
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Kind of just like, oh, just let me put something on.
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And you're not, you're not really emotionally prepared.
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Yeah, not really emotionally prepared to foc uh, to face, like having to feel something
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Yeah,
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or, or think about something.
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But actually I find as soon as I, as soon as we start putting on more challenging movies, again.
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I was, um, oh, well I was feeling you, you do feel something, but also it's like really cathartic and, actually not actually that much hard work.
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I mean, I'm, you know, not putting on like, the most depressing stuff, but, but trying to, trying to watch something that that's like, got some resonance and actually the rewards far outstrips the, um, the potential.
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Like have you, you know, and essentially kinda perk up.
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So instead of like sitting there like
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Yeah,
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slug, like on the couch, you kinda go like, oh wow, this is really engaging me.
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And you, you wake up
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You've got
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you know?
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Some processes going on in the brain rather than just, eh, which is my, my evening go-to at the moment.
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Um, that sounds great.
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But film is is relevant to your journey as a comics creator.
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Is it?
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Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in Yeah.
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Making comics
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Yeah.
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So I, I guess beyond, beyond primary schools where I had my cartoon character Skipper, a cat that lived in a skip.
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Um, but, so I had that character running for, for years, you know, at high school it kind of dropped off the comics making.
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Um, I still was an avid doodler in the margins and I had sketchbooks that I would draw often, like sort of fan art of, characters from eels songs or, um, or like Bell and Sebastian lyrics or Manic Street Preachers lyrics, you know, my go-to teenage, uh, music, I was a lot of her angsty imagery in my sketchbooks.
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but my, now partner who I met when we were just like 16, and she actually sort of opened my eyes to the wider world of comics, so she, she reintroduced me to you.
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I had been reading.
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Calvin Hobbs and peanuts and things, and I'd, I'd start to get an inkling of like, there's cooler stuff out there, because as an avid Eels fan, he often featured like Adrian Toni, um, and like Seth in the, in the liner notes.
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So I I I was like, oh, this is cool.
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But I didn't like know
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Now, back when music came with stuff around
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Yeah.
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Which, yeah, and exactly.
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I had a kind of cross pollination and, um, like around that time, ghost World came out as well, and I remember getting a copy of Ghost World.
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but yeah, my partner like, was like, oh look, all this stuff that, that exists out there, and it, it was like completely eyeopening and lots of like, obviously very angsty teenage stuff.
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and I, a lot of superhero stuff as well, but it really started me on a journey and, you know, she was on the same journey of, of just discovering this huge, wider world of comics.
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And this was all through the libraries here in Edinburgh that she would.
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Go out and, and pick up a bunch of comics and we'd read them.
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and there was a really, really good selection.
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So that's really what got, got started on that kind of further journey into reading.
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And then, inspired by that really I got back into make to making comics as well and sort of realizing that I could tell, stories more kind of, uh, engaging and interesting to me at that age, you know, essentially.
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'cause I think that's a real thing.
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Um, you know, I was in the school yesterday and I did a talk to the first year of high school, then the second year of high school.
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so like, you know, 11, 12 year olds and then I guess sort of 13, 14 year olds.
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And then, I mean, there, there's, there's two things going on here.
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But basically, you know, like I asked you how many people here read comics and when it was the first years they, they, you know, I dunno, like maybe 45% put their hands up.
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And then, and then for the older year, um, like two hands went up and I know there's other factors there.
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I know the factors about not wanting to stand out and all this stuff, but I
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also just I wonder what their wider reading level is.
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'cause certainly my daughter's an avid reader.
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Reader, but she's in year 10 now, and that's just, there's just no time.
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It's just like revision and, yeah.
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Um, so, so there's multiple factors there.
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But I also wouldn't be surprised if, you know, that was for myself as well.
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Like the falling off happens in that, in that, in that age group.
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and you need something then to spark that again.
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'cause I think obviously comics have, um, that appeal to ev everyone potentially.
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And it's just finding the, the work that's out there and having yourself exposed to it and
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Yeah, and I wonder if there's something, I'm just thinking aloud here.
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I've never really thought this thought before.
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but around like comics that bridge, that the age ranges, because like one, if you are kind of grown out of the stuff that you liked when you were younger and then you don't, but you don't know what to read next, then I think there's also that sort of breaking point where it's like, well, I can't read those things.
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I, my reader identity was attached to something that I'm no longer very interested in, and I don't know where to go next if you don't have that kind of
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I've seen, a lot of, I've seen some calls online recently from children's office saying that there's like a gap in the market essentially between, I, I mean, I don't really know what the markets are called.
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It's like middle
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Yeah.
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And then ya
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like, n ya, and there's a kind of gap there that's like a transitional space where it is like the, ya can sometimes be a bit hard.
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but the kid stuff's too, kid kiddy, you know, they're, they're outgrowing, they're wanting, they're hunger for like emotionally resonant stories and, and they're a bit more depth and a bit more independence.
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And there's maybe a gap in the market there that needs, that
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I guess that's where that also it is the fact that publishing is an industry as well becomes a bit of a, an issue in that reading dips off then, so there's not a market, and then it is like chicken and egg.
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a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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so, back to my journey, I suppose.
00:15:44.509 --> 00:15:52.519
I got back into making comics, but I, I was like, I was always convinced from a very young age that I was going to be a movie director.
00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:53.659
I was gonna be a filmmaker.
00:15:54.049 --> 00:15:58.460
Um, but, you know, I'd grown up with these dual passions of film and comics essentially.
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.669
And, uh, and so I went off to study film university.
00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.570
Um, but, I did a joint degree with, uh, English literature.
00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:12.500
And actually English literature was the thing that really sparked me, even though I was never like the biggest reader.
00:16:12.830 --> 00:16:16.370
But what I, what really interested me was just in the nature of the.
00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:20.730
Literature course was that we had all these like subunits about different topics.
00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:26.549
So we did like a, a unit on like, what was it?
00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:30.029
It was on, it was like on the, the body and horror.
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:36.149
And um, I ended up doing an essay on like food and Horror in Under the Skin.
00:16:37.110 --> 00:16:38.490
It's a very longwinded story.
00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:39.240
Um,
00:16:39.414 --> 00:16:40.440
loving the details.
00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:45.240
um, but that then like totally sparked something off in my mind because I was fa passionate about film.
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:53.254
I was like, I'm gonna take this kind of,'cause the film course we were doing, it was never that granular, but I, you know, it was never like, oh, well look at this little fascinating element.
00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:57.629
It was, it was, the films had never quite captured me, but this thing did.
00:16:57.629 --> 00:17:00.600
So I kind of whisked that over to films.
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:05.315
I did my dissertation on film and I did it on Food Horror in the Body in, Asian cinema.
00:17:05.315 --> 00:17:07.279
So this was like me taking like.
00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:18.385
My kind of nerdy passion for like this really niche little concept that really sparked all these ideas about food and horror and took over to film and that's where sort of filming started to fall together, I suppose.
00:17:18.385 --> 00:17:30.086
And when I came outta university, as I was still trying to pursue writing for film or, or writing a short film to make a short film, but I just wasn't getting anywhere because I didn't have like the self-confidence at that age.
00:17:30.326 --> 00:17:37.915
Probably don't have the self-confidence now to be honest, to like do the things necessary to like bring together a cast and a crew and funding and all that stuff.
00:17:37.915 --> 00:17:39.536
I was, it seemed so huge.
00:17:39.536 --> 00:17:43.766
I ended up just going of chipping away at a script for ages, almost like putting off the inevitable.
00:17:44.365 --> 00:17:50.980
But at the same time I got back into comics and making comics and, and kind of getting interested in this idea that with comics I could just do it.
00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:54.868
I could just put something out there and it would be much more easy and accessible.
00:17:54.917 --> 00:17:58.932
and I was working at the film house, independent cinema in Edburg at the time.
00:17:59.301 --> 00:18:03.501
they sort of saw what I was doing and someone suggested that I could just think for their newsletter about film.
00:18:03.501 --> 00:18:08.580
So that's where film ish kind of was first, inspired was to do a little thing for their, their newsletter.
00:18:09.121 --> 00:18:11.131
And there, from there I was like, oh, this is really fun.
00:18:11.131 --> 00:18:21.946
Like this is me taking, like loving that granular sort of, academic analysis of stuff that's come from these weird different angles and enjoying drawing and loving film and just that
00:18:22.474 --> 00:18:34.894
That is something that kind of feels like really distinct about like the stuff that, the things people write dissertations on, the things people get into at university, and then you leave behind that really specific interest that chance.
00:18:34.894 --> 00:18:42.404
So it's quite cool to be able to have a avenue with which to still explore those aspects and find new things out.
00:18:42.494 --> 00:18:42.644
It's
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:43.380
Yeah.
00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:47.160
And I always felt like, you know, I always really loved reading.
00:18:47.789 --> 00:18:52.559
Those papers on those weird little things that people had become fascinated with.
00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:59.805
But I also always understood them to be often quite hard to read, like quite hard to, especially for an outsider.
00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:05.204
So I also felt like there's all these like really interesting ideas buried in tech, in textbooks essentially.
00:19:05.204 --> 00:19:06.805
And I guess that's what film, you know, Filmish came in.
00:19:06.825 --> 00:19:17.325
I was trying to, I was essentially trying to go, trying to present these things to people and show like how interesting it can be to look at film from these different academic perspectives and to think about film in these new lights.
00:19:17.714 --> 00:19:22.335
But I wanted to do it in a way that was really, really accessible.
00:19:22.394 --> 00:19:25.053
Just really easy to read, or relatively easy to read.
00:19:25.728 --> 00:19:26.018
Yeah.
00:19:26.865 --> 00:19:27.464
happened from there?
00:19:27.464 --> 00:19:30.653
So how, how did you end up with your first published book?
00:19:31.221 --> 00:19:44.240
so I started, yeah, so with, with film ish, you know, I wrote that little, a couple of little short ones for the newsletter at the film has, and I was like, I think my dad suggested like, why don't you put this to package this together and, make a little zine out of it.
00:19:44.304 --> 00:19:48.473
so I wrote another longer essay to kinda pad it out to make a sort of 20 page comic.
00:19:48.993 --> 00:19:53.314
I printed a hundred copies, um, just fully black and white thing, right?
00:19:53.344 --> 00:20:06.693
You know, it was like a pound of copy or something to print, and then took it into the film house where I was working and used, used my connections in as a box office person to put it on the, on the counter and put it on sale.
00:20:06.693 --> 00:20:09.814
So I sold them for three pounds each, the film house to take a little cut.
00:20:10.473 --> 00:20:19.564
And then I would, I just basically took the, the profits off of that and, and went and printed another hundred copies and, you know, saw, saw it roll from there.
00:20:20.054 --> 00:20:24.753
I did four issues, over the next few years, each one on a different topic.
00:20:25.473 --> 00:20:35.804
And, you know, from there like, it, it was just, I guess like a kind of cool indie thing that existed in, in Edinburgh and that people, picked up and thought was kinda interesting and cool.
00:20:36.624 --> 00:20:40.074
I started doing like comic conventions and selling at comic conventions.
00:20:40.074 --> 00:20:48.038
And I then probably around 2012, so only a couple years into doing film ish, like I started, I thought, oh, maybe I could do a book of this.
00:20:48.108 --> 00:20:50.148
so I started pitching to different publishers.
00:20:50.749 --> 00:21:00.679
And then finally, uh, in about 2013, so it's two years before the book came out, the editor at Self made Hero said yes to, to the idea of doing a book.
00:21:00.679 --> 00:21:03.888
And I was like, I was very happy indeed.
00:21:04.354 --> 00:21:11.134
I was interested, you picked up on the kind of type of academic reading from university, but do you like to read nonfiction comics?
00:21:11.134 --> 00:21:17.594
Is that kind of your personal reading preference or, how are those two things linked really like your reading and, and your writing, or are they not?
00:21:17.594 --> 00:21:20.384
Do you read very different things to, what you produce in your own work?
00:21:21.328 --> 00:21:24.778
Yeah, I mean, as I said that, like I've been a bit of a bad reader.
00:21:25.423 --> 00:21:25.993
Yeah.
00:21:26.368 --> 00:21:33.388
Non-fiction comics do interest me in as much as nonfiction subjects certainly can interest me.
00:21:33.439 --> 00:21:37.128
I think there's a real challenge at the heart of nonfiction comics because.
00:21:37.554 --> 00:21:39.653
Comics inherently are your words and pictures.
00:21:39.653 --> 00:22:04.413
And I find with some, you know, some, some nonfiction comics, I think struggle and maybe my own struggle with like that balance right between words and pictures and, you have like a really fascinating story or a fascinating history or a fascinating something that by doing it as a comic you almost just have to, you have to strip out so much because for it to be fully, realized in all its depth and complexity and detail, actually probably be better off writing a,
00:22:05.074 --> 00:22:07.594
Yeah, it's not necessarily the best form for
00:22:07.653 --> 00:22:12.992
So it's not always so, so I do enjoy nonfiction comic, but I think there's a challenge, especially I guess as a, as a person who produces them.
00:22:13.383 --> 00:22:16.742
I, I'm a very acutely aware of the challenges when I read them
00:22:16.869 --> 00:22:24.279
So you find you're reading them with a critical eye or like a, with, with the, the informed eye of like, wow, this would've been a nightmare to make this page.
00:22:24.585 --> 00:22:29.019
The, the nonfiction comics, mafia are gonna come and get me for saying that.
00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:33.880
But I think, but at the same time, I mean, obviously it's also really accessible.
00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:37.480
I think it's, it's dependent on the subject matter and how it's, how it's tackled.
00:22:37.829 --> 00:22:44.371
I mean with Filmish and Gamish as well, there's probably like 20 to 30 pages of end notes of all the things I couldn't fit in.
00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:51.000
And I think that's like, I think it in a sense speaks to that tension of like all the things you have to miss out.
00:22:51.451 --> 00:22:51.990
Mm.
00:22:52.651 --> 00:22:58.988
But do you think with both of those, the fact that the thing that you are talking about is also a kind of multimodal medium?
00:22:59.011 --> 00:22:59.971
Was helpful?
00:23:00.021 --> 00:23:00.862
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:23:00.922 --> 00:23:06.622
Especially once I got into working on the book and when people started asking difficult questions like, why are you doing a comic about film?
00:23:07.491 --> 00:23:08.999
Why are you not doing a YouTube essay?
00:23:09.010 --> 00:23:22.159
yeah, you're translating the visuals of film into another art form, but by doing that, you've got an opportunity to step backwards so we can sort of allow for a more analytical eye and also kind of essentialize.
00:23:22.338 --> 00:23:40.419
So that's the kinda two things you're doing when you're, when I'm drawing these panels, is that it's allowing you to, to, to take that step back and, and more analytical and frame it in,, in a new way and I think that when it comes to nonfiction comics in general, that's the opportunity, isn't it?
00:23:40.479 --> 00:23:43.328
It's that you've got an opportunity to do something with the pictures.
00:23:43.328 --> 00:23:56.108
So when done right, it's really amazing because you're able to pull on the power of, of the imagery and pull and the power of the words at the same time, which is something that up that up just a textbook would never be able to do.
00:23:58.756 --> 00:24:04.507
I'm, I'm hesitant to ask this question'cause it's slightly off track, but, and also, so apologies to listeners who are thinking, what is she on about?
00:24:04.807 --> 00:24:14.836
But I'm really interested also in this sort of link between comics and film I've heard it quite a few times, people describing particular sequence in, in a comic as being filmic.
00:24:15.192 --> 00:24:25.592
And I was like, well, comics came first and, and actually a lot of films actually start off as storyboards, which are comic like.
00:24:26.416 --> 00:24:38.692
And so I feel like there's actually between the two mediums, a really interrelated language that goes both ways that comics inform the way that films are made and vice versa.
00:24:38.873 --> 00:24:39.982
What do you think about that?
00:24:40.553 --> 00:24:41.992
This is what I spend my time thinking about.
00:24:43.732 --> 00:24:45.053
Um, yes.
00:24:45.952 --> 00:24:48.266
Um, yeah, I, I, I agree.
00:24:48.266 --> 00:25:05.613
I think, it's really interesting, again, kinda going back to when I present in schools and I sort of, one of the things I like to say is about how comics are essentially the extension of the oldest recorded form of communication in that like, the first recorded form of communication is like cave paintings,
00:25:05.942 --> 00:25:06.212
Yeah.
00:25:06.633 --> 00:25:09.512
I guess maybe some carvings and some little sculptures and things.
00:25:09.512 --> 00:25:14.553
I'm not sure of the precise timeline, but it's one of the very variable fundamental ways that humans have communicated.
00:25:14.625 --> 00:25:20.476
and, and we kind of, I guess because humans like categorize, we're always kinda separating things out, aren't we?
00:25:20.476 --> 00:25:22.006
And we're like, well, this is this and this is that.
00:25:22.455 --> 00:25:31.486
But like, it's all part of this big long evolution, isn't it, of the cave painting through, which then kind of split into written language and continue to visual art.
00:25:32.026 --> 00:25:33.915
And then visual art eventually evolved into.
00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:36.030
Almost like lifelike paintings.
00:25:36.030 --> 00:25:42.030
And then this sort of, uh, desire to sort of capture chemically capture imagery through photography.
00:25:42.030 --> 00:25:50.003
And then that obviously very naturally led to taking multiple photos of very close, timing to produce the illusion of motion through film.
00:25:50.003 --> 00:25:52.284
So it's all kind of like really interlinked.
00:25:52.523 --> 00:25:57.443
It's kind of no surprise that the language is really interlinked as well.
00:25:57.483 --> 00:26:19.217
And I like that what you're saying, that, uh, comics came first and um, and yeah, they, I be, I'm interested actually'cause I think it's a very specific time historically, and if you look at kind of comics or kind of proto, they wouldn't even be proto comics, but like this before the kind of those elements had really kind of coalesced around the panel and that kind of se sequentially.
00:26:20.596 --> 00:26:26.176
I do wonder, what if you kind of took a, a comic, I've never looked specifically at a comic.
00:26:26.836 --> 00:26:36.916
Or that kind of image from 1895 and then the very first captured motion and like what similarities,
00:26:36.932 --> 00:26:37.352
Yeah.
00:26:37.682 --> 00:26:46.412
Like at what point did things like, like closeups and particular different shot types, at what point did they start to come into comic language?
00:26:46.711 --> 00:26:47.971
Because you, in the ones that.
00:26:48.527 --> 00:26:56.987
I can think of that I've seen in very early comics, it is quite, you don't, you're not seeing the same sort of suite of techniques as are in the visual storytelling now.
00:26:57.557 --> 00:26:58.757
So I'm interested Yeah.
00:26:58.757 --> 00:27:01.547
I wonder where they intersect.
00:27:03.974 --> 00:27:05.092
You mentioned game ish.
00:27:05.191 --> 00:27:09.200
I, I really enjoyed that, book and I'm finding out about something that I didn't really know about.
00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:13.819
I'm not, although I, I did get a game, I did get a computer game for Christmas.
00:27:13.970 --> 00:27:15.049
Um,
00:27:15.194 --> 00:27:15.394
you get?
00:27:15.631 --> 00:27:16.351
stray.
00:27:16.530 --> 00:27:17.010
You know, you're a
00:27:17.165 --> 00:27:17.445
cool.
00:27:17.476 --> 00:27:17.766
Yeah.
00:27:18.090 --> 00:27:18.810
is really good.
00:27:19.441 --> 00:27:21.240
I'm the, I'm, I'm really into it.
00:27:21.661 --> 00:27:26.310
Um, occasionally I have to get someone else to come and do the really, the bits where there's lots of things chasing me.
00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:28.441
I'm not that good at doing it.
00:27:28.780 --> 00:27:30.161
I'm definitely in a house of gamers here.
00:27:30.201 --> 00:27:39.142
but, um, in terms of when you're selecting your projects, and I know, so obviously you've had an preexisting interest in film and a really good knowledge base.
00:27:39.291 --> 00:27:41.781
but you've gone on from that, your kind of starting point.
00:27:41.842 --> 00:27:44.692
Did you have to do a lot of research to create your books?
00:27:44.751 --> 00:27:54.951
Is it that an a topic that you're already interested in and then you kind of do a lot of research or how, how does that kind of journey come to being as informed as you need to be to actually make the the book?
00:27:55.311 --> 00:27:55.701
Yeah.
00:27:55.731 --> 00:28:10.955
So yeah, I mean, film ish was coming from obviously a place where I had a fairly good established understanding of the broad scope of film theory and some things I could touch on, and it really informed then the kinda chapter breakdown of that.
00:28:11.076 --> 00:28:16.340
'cause it in film ish, it's not like a chronological history of film, it's like a thematic, journey.
00:28:16.340 --> 00:28:19.221
It is called a film journey, you know, graphic journey through film.
00:28:19.221 --> 00:28:24.770
So it's a journey because it's like we start with the eye, we move onto to the body, and then it's like, I.
00:28:25.326 --> 00:28:33.155
Set, you know, set design and architecture and I can't remember what chapters you time and power and, you know, all these and technology.
00:28:33.155 --> 00:28:39.516
There's all these different themes that then I kind of crafted into something of a narrative.
00:28:39.516 --> 00:28:42.606
Ultimately there's something of a kind of logical structure to it.
00:28:42.606 --> 00:28:47.800
but within each of those chapters, you're jumping around through time and you're making all these different juxtapositions.
00:28:48.131 --> 00:28:55.500
Um, so I had kinda a lot of that though'cause I had a fairly deep well of film knowledge, fairly deep well of like, understanding of the different facets of film theory.
00:28:55.740 --> 00:29:08.518
So it was kind of a lot easier to get started and then to know roughly where to go to then track down the rest, with games, I mean, I didn't even get like a console until I was like in my twenties.
00:29:08.785 --> 00:29:14.845
I had friends who had consoles or, or PCs that could play video games, uh, as, as a kid and as a teenager.
00:29:14.845 --> 00:29:16.555
I wasn't like a big, big gamer.
00:29:16.555 --> 00:29:24.443
I was always like wanting to get invited right to friends' houses so that I could go and play their video games, or watch them play their video games.
00:29:24.911 --> 00:29:26.036
so it's a very different thing.
00:29:26.185 --> 00:29:53.336
And, and so there was definitely a challenge, not just in like my lack of that kind of deep lore of like, of having grown up, having played all the final fantasies and all the Marios and all the Zeldas, which whenever I listen to like video game podcasters, they know all that, you know, they already, they've got that deep well, so I didn't have that deep well, which obviously created like huge imposter syndrome going into it.
00:29:53.336 --> 00:29:59.535
But at the same time, it was just something I had to kind of embrace and, and understand that I was coming at it from a different.
00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:00.779
Different angle.
00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:02.519
Um, but it was, it was much more challenging.
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:12.240
I think one of the things that's challenging, and it's really interesting, I mean there's many factors again, but like, I feel like game ish never really took off in the same way that film ish did.
00:30:12.255 --> 00:30:23.884
and I think part of the challenge, and I, I tried my best, but part of the challenge that I'm now aware of sort of five years since, it came out, is games just don't really have a, a stable canon yet.
00:30:23.914 --> 00:30:27.595
So whereas film, we have, more than a hundred years of film history.
00:30:27.744 --> 00:30:39.826
I mean, even if you go back a hundred years, you've almost already got like sound centers almost already coalesced into something, a language, so you've got this huge deep canon from across the globe.
00:30:40.247 --> 00:30:42.047
And not only that is.
00:30:43.217 --> 00:30:48.257
A huge amount of it's available and it's available on modern formats essentially.
00:30:49.126 --> 00:30:55.875
Whereas with video games, you've got a much shallower history of about, what, 60 years.
00:30:55.963 --> 00:31:00.584
but even then there is no, there is no chance of playing.
00:31:00.848 --> 00:31:09.403
You, you know, you can watch, you can, you can literally watch the first, you know, like the train coming into the station on YouTube, you know, that has been preserved.
00:31:09.993 --> 00:31:12.513
But like the earliest game experiments, there's just zero.
00:31:12.604 --> 00:31:13.983
There's no chance you couldn't play it.
00:31:13.983 --> 00:31:16.996
And even if you could play it, it would be like a, a recreation.
00:31:17.066 --> 00:31:20.665
and then from there, just going forward, it's like some of the stuff survived.
00:31:20.773 --> 00:31:24.344
And some of the stuff's been updated to be available, but so much of it hasn't.
00:31:24.673 --> 00:31:38.973
So there's just this really complex thing where it's like, it is, I guess it speaks to the fact that video games are art and technology and as we all know, if you ever picked up like an old, an iPhone it would like look alien to you, you and me even sure.
00:31:38.973 --> 00:31:42.423
How to use it to a certain extent, it would feel so old.
00:31:42.784 --> 00:31:45.153
And that's something that, that video games suffer from.
00:31:45.153 --> 00:31:49.054
Whereas if you, if you looked at a film from 10 years ago, you'd be like, that's so neat.
00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:51.681
you can go back 40 years.
00:31:51.681 --> 00:31:55.580
I mean, we're still celebrating films from 40 or 50 years ago as feeling kind of
00:31:55.820 --> 00:31:57.230
Jurassic Park still looks good.
00:31:57.651 --> 00:31:58.461
I'm just gonna say it.
00:31:58.461 --> 00:31:58.730
It looks
00:31:58.760 --> 00:31:59.060
Yeah.
00:31:59.330 --> 00:32:01.296
I mean if you ask a teenager, they might not say that, but.
00:32:06.558 --> 00:32:18.413
I'm really interested in, from a educational perspective, the way that comics can be built in the cross curriculum, and not just about the English curriculum or the art curriculum, but how they can be implemented in other areas of the curriculum.
00:32:18.413 --> 00:32:21.721
So I'd love to hear more about, the work that you've done in that area.
00:32:21.734 --> 00:32:22.605
in science.
00:32:22.655 --> 00:32:32.241
Yeah, so, at high school as I was an aspiring filmmaker, I was, you know, I wrote my friends in and we'd go into the woods and like run around making films and stuff.
00:32:33.011 --> 00:32:38.307
but we kinda continued to, to, you know, we'd make like little short films and we would, do drawings together and stuff like that.
00:32:38.547 --> 00:32:39.926
And he went off to.
00:32:40.511 --> 00:32:42.041
You need to study science.
00:32:42.041 --> 00:32:44.862
And I went off to, you need to study the arts to study film.
00:32:45.192 --> 00:32:55.051
And then, he was doing his PhD in Glasgow and he found that there was like this little pot of money for public engagement in his department.
00:32:55.531 --> 00:32:59.251
And so he came with the idea that we could do a little collaboration together.
00:32:59.372 --> 00:33:03.602
And the idea was that we co-write a comic, a short comic, and I would draw it.
00:33:04.021 --> 00:33:11.511
And then he, while I was busy drawing this comic, so this is, he was studying parasitology, he was studying, the parasite that causes sleeping sickness.
00:33:11.902 --> 00:33:16.342
So we did a short comic about these different parasites that the lab was working on.
00:33:16.926 --> 00:33:34.957
And he at, while I was drawing, spent his evenings sewing together a probably like three or four meter long giant parasite out of hula hoops and shiny material that we then took to the Glasgow.
00:33:35.017 --> 00:33:38.227
There's like a sort of mea festival in Kelton Grove Park.
00:33:38.497 --> 00:33:41.856
And so we took this almost like, you know, like a Chinese dragon on sticks.
00:33:41.916 --> 00:33:47.497
The scientists were sort of dancing through the park amongst all these other, other floats.
00:33:47.557 --> 00:33:50.257
And then we were handing out comics to people as as we went.
00:33:50.747 --> 00:34:02.807
So that sort of started our collaborative journey and that really, I, at that time, I certainly wasn't aware of it, but there, I don't think there was much in the way of like public engagement, science comics out there.
00:34:02.807 --> 00:34:07.696
And we were kind of, we were certainly making it'cause we went along and hadn't seen any other stuff.
00:34:08.746 --> 00:34:19.766
and it was really popular amongst the, the labs, the people were like, this is a really good way to create a very accessible, succinct sort of, uh, encapsulation of the work we do.
00:34:19.777 --> 00:34:29.481
And so over the course of, about 15 years now, we've been working together sort of on and off on these different projects together.
00:34:29.481 --> 00:34:32.780
And then I've sometimes done some on my own with other labs.
00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:36.380
We basically did one for every single parasite that this lab studies.
00:34:37.570 --> 00:34:49.617
I've done one on, microfossils at the bottom of the ocean that they take core samples from the bottom of the ocean using this like huge long, this ship of fires in this huge long drill.
00:34:50.038 --> 00:34:55.577
And it pulls out core samples, and then they can analyze that to find out climate change over the course of millions of years.
00:34:55.626 --> 00:35:00.867
And it's just been like a really interesting, way to engage with all these different subject matters.
00:35:00.867 --> 00:35:08.097
And, um, and I, I think a really good way for labs to be able to reach out, have something like really tangible.
00:35:08.128 --> 00:35:10.288
You know, we, we, we, most of the projects we print a little.
00:35:10.873 --> 00:35:16.543
You know, little comics that they can then hand out at science festivals and go to schools and things like that.
00:35:16.963 --> 00:35:18.713
Um, and then they have them online as well,
00:35:18.768 --> 00:35:19.248
I think it could be.
00:35:19.248 --> 00:35:28.179
So you, you could, I could just see this being used so much in school, like children making their own comics to, explain content that they learn out in all sorts of different subjects.
00:35:28.179 --> 00:35:29.139
I think it'd be really good.
00:35:29.202 --> 00:35:33.762
there's a school that, that I go and teach the kids how to make their own science comics.
00:35:33.762 --> 00:35:41.442
You know, give them the kind of lowdown how to think about it and, um, the tools, you know, as a comic artist, the kind of things they can, they can do.
00:35:41.742 --> 00:35:45.371
And then every year they'll take the science that they're learning.
00:35:45.592 --> 00:35:50.242
And then they produce a, their own piece of public engagement essentially.
00:35:50.242 --> 00:35:53.842
And then I get to look at them all and kind of feed back to the, the kids about the work they've done.
00:35:54.172 --> 00:36:01.612
So it's really amazing because I think it's like a, you're right, it's like a really powerful way, I think, to use comics in the classroom.
00:36:01.641 --> 00:36:08.052
I think there is such an untapped potential because through making a comic, you're having to like think about what you've learned.
00:36:08.052 --> 00:36:14.121
You're having to sort of synthesize it and, essentially boil it down and work it out because you have to break it down to all these panels.
00:36:14.121 --> 00:36:16.251
So there's such a lot of learning that's done.
00:36:16.251 --> 00:36:28.516
I mean, for me, it's like, that's precisely what I do is when I make a science comic, when um, lab reaches out to me, you know, we sit down and I normally pair out with a scientist and I sit down and we work out maybe the structure, the types of things we wanna talk about.
00:36:28.516 --> 00:36:30.257
And then I just get'em to explain it to me.
00:36:30.617 --> 00:36:34.157
And if I don't understand a bit, I ask them to explain that and dig.
00:36:34.157 --> 00:36:35.027
I really dig into it.
00:36:35.027 --> 00:36:43.097
And so all that stuff never makes it into the comic, but by me understanding it, I know I can then translate it to something that other people can understand as
00:36:43.157 --> 00:36:43.666
yeah.
00:36:43.666 --> 00:36:47.626
In order to simplify something, well, you have to understand the complicated version of it, don't you?
00:36:47.717 --> 00:36:48.856
That's the thing.
00:36:48.976 --> 00:36:49.336
Yeah.
00:36:49.556 --> 00:36:54.817
I think you are in this, annoying and troubling time of AI I think schools are.
00:36:54.867 --> 00:37:01.166
Really dicing with, with potential trouble there when, when, with kind of any kind of use of AI in a sense.
00:37:01.166 --> 00:37:06.027
You're relying on someone else to do the work for you, you're never gonna learn it.
00:37:06.327 --> 00:37:11.396
You're only gonna just accept the regurgitate, which is exactly what AI does, it regurgitates and not even accurately.
00:37:11.907 --> 00:37:19.467
So get the kids to regurgitate, get the students to regurgitate for you.
00:37:20.007 --> 00:37:22.197
Um, because not, not literally.
00:37:22.556 --> 00:37:26.483
Um, because that's the, I think that that's the learning, right?
00:37:26.487 --> 00:37:32.032
The, the learning is the taking is the coming to understand it and then working out how you can communicate it.
00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:35.525
Your most recent book.
00:37:36.331 --> 00:37:37.411
Graphic novel builder.
00:37:37.550 --> 00:37:40.581
let's come onto that now'cause it's a really brilliant thing.
00:37:40.581 --> 00:37:41.097
I love it.
00:37:41.097 --> 00:37:46.300
Can you tell listeners about the book, how the project came about to do a little bit of an intro for somebody who might not have seen it yet?
00:37:46.856 --> 00:37:53.255
Yeah, so A graphic novel builder is, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics is the subtitle.
00:37:53.286 --> 00:37:56.775
And it's, a book that was commissioned essentially by Collins.
00:37:56.775 --> 00:38:00.016
So they got in touch with me interested in making a book for that audience.
00:38:00.016 --> 00:38:05.655
So they felt there was an underserved kind of, I guess that kind of 11 plus.
00:38:05.655 --> 00:38:13.307
They said, you know, the, the young teenage an onwards age group,'cause there's lots of books for, younger kids about making your own comics and there's lots of books.
00:38:13.637 --> 00:38:16.458
You know, there's like Scott McLeod's making comics and
00:38:16.472 --> 00:38:17.193
Maybe a bit older.
00:38:17.193 --> 00:38:17.643
Yeah.
00:38:17.717 --> 00:38:20.166
of quite good stuff for, adults, essentially.
00:38:20.166 --> 00:38:24.146
Although I absolutely appreciate that teenagers can, can read those and get looked out of them.
00:38:24.146 --> 00:38:37.039
but there wasn't, they felt, there wasn't something in the market that, that just captured that kind of budding teenage, like wanting to be creative and wanting to make comics space that was like trying to make something accessible in that sense.
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:48.358
And so they got in touch with me and I was, I was like, again, you know, as I said before, uh, I'm obviously a, I guess like a lot of artists, uh, get a lot of imposter syndrome.
00:38:48.358 --> 00:38:52.168
And I think the imposter syndrome for that was extremely intense.
00:38:52.168 --> 00:38:56.728
The idea that, you know, who, who am I to tell anyone how to make comics?
00:38:56.789 --> 00:38:57.659
I don't know what I'm doing.
00:38:58.108 --> 00:38:58.858
What am I doing?
00:38:59.369 --> 00:39:04.554
Um, so I had to, I, I really had to think about it what have I got to offer?
00:39:04.664 --> 00:39:15.735
so what I kinda tried to tap into with it, um, and what you see in the book is that I, I thought, well, you know, in my previous books, it's been me, you know, a, a bearded adult man,
00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:18.239
Yeah.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.070
appearing as a character
00:39:20.396 --> 00:39:21.016
and like that.
00:39:21.077 --> 00:39:27.277
I was just like, that cannot be, I obviously can't do that mean also because and I take that, you know, I very much a compliment.
00:39:27.277 --> 00:39:31.597
People compare like, you know, film ish and gamish to like Scott McLeod, you know, Scott McLeod for film or whatever.
00:39:31.702 --> 00:39:35.902
But where if you put the genre and the all, like the subject matter and that technique together,
00:39:35.947 --> 00:39:43.927
I just returning back to source, but also just like, also like, I think fundamentally like what I sort of, you know, while I was trying to find like, what's my voice here?
00:39:43.927 --> 00:39:45.126
What am I trying to achieve?
00:39:45.126 --> 00:39:45.666
And I was like.
00:39:46.327 --> 00:39:54.487
Going back to thinking about, you know, me as a teenager making films in the woods with my friends and doing all these great projects with my, you know, friend I still get to work with.
00:39:54.487 --> 00:40:00.079
I'm really, you know, so great that I get to work with my, you know, one of my best friends from high school to this day.
00:40:00.128 --> 00:40:06.659
But I very acutely remember that feeling of being a teenager and being creative and what that's like.
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:16.516
And also when I go into schools as well, it's just so delightful to meet young people creative and who have this like, burning desire to make things.
00:40:16.516 --> 00:40:17.447
It's so amazing.
00:40:18.016 --> 00:40:23.503
So I was like, I've gotta capture that because that's like really speaks to such a specific experience of being a creative kid.
00:40:23.503 --> 00:40:29.793
so what I decided to do was to, to essentially create this little cast of, Teenagers who are the comic makers.
00:40:29.793 --> 00:40:31.773
So they're the, they're your guides through the book.
00:40:31.873 --> 00:40:32.682
There's five kids.
00:40:32.682 --> 00:40:35.563
Each one's a representative of a different element of making comics.
00:40:35.563 --> 00:40:43.797
So there's, there's the, you know, the pub, the sort of publisher one who's like, likes to man the comic stall and, and do the marketing and things.
00:40:43.797 --> 00:40:48.731
And then there's the writer and inker, the artist, you know, and the colorist.
00:40:48.972 --> 00:40:57.813
And then there's the designer, kid who's kind of into making like weird little zines and like hiding in people's shoes and things, you know, that kinda slightly anarchic, creativity.
00:40:57.813 --> 00:41:03.958
that was really when I realized like, oh no, this is something that I'd really like to do and that I, that I feel like I'm able to do.
00:41:03.983 --> 00:41:05.574
and I do obviously have a lot of knowledge.
00:41:05.574 --> 00:41:17.690
I mean, I have been working in comics for 15 years, but it was very easy to, to, when you look at everyone else's work, to convince yourself that you've got nothing to say because everyone else seems so much more capable and,
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:18.170
Yeah.
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:24.561
But the reality of the situations that everyone else is also sitting there feeling, feeling like their own levels of self-doubt and things, aren't they?
00:41:24.710 --> 00:41:29.934
so, in the end, it was really fun after I got over myself, it was a really fun, fun one to.
00:41:30.489 --> 00:41:33.849
To be offered to do and then to take kind of ownership of as well.
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:39.130
And part of that was, I think their original vision for it was actually, it was gonna be maybe a bit more like a workbook.
00:41:39.579 --> 00:42:00.342
So it was going to be, you know, maybe like you could fill things in or And in all my wisdom when, you know, they also said, oh, we, you know, we need this by, or we'd really like this by May next year, and all my wisdom, I was like, yes, I will do it, but only if I get to make it all comics and have to draw it all
00:42:00.858 --> 00:42:01.148
Yeah.
00:42:01.782 --> 00:42:12.072
and make it full color and turn it into like a graphic novel level piece of work rather than a workbook that's like, I do a bit writing and then someone does the graphic design at the other end.
00:42:12.097 --> 00:42:21.985
so I kinda made a rod from my own back by turning into a bigger project, but I was really inspired to do that, and I felt of all these different ways that I could use comics to take the reader on a journey through how
00:42:22.030 --> 00:42:22.570
Mm.
00:42:22.726 --> 00:42:23.927
I think it works so well.
00:42:23.927 --> 00:42:24.436
It's great.
00:42:24.467 --> 00:42:25.007
I loved it.
00:42:25.068 --> 00:42:31.221
and I definitely recommend anyone listening, I think you could even, it could definitely sneak into the top end of primary as well, I think.
00:42:31.335 --> 00:42:38.235
the last two years of primary school and then also the, the number of adults, even a few like professional, like, you know, artists who have been like, oh, I found that really useful.
00:42:38.235 --> 00:42:39.106
I'm like, don't,
00:42:39.331 --> 00:42:39.990
That's great.
00:42:40.141 --> 00:42:41.221
But that's what I wanted to ask you.
00:42:41.221 --> 00:42:55.150
Like, did you also find out new stuff that you, because they've, like, it's such, comics are such a broad spectrum, like there have to be things that only maybe only apply in particular genre or there parts of the process that you unlocked as well through, through the process of
00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:55.751
Yeah.
00:42:56.170 --> 00:43:03.110
And in, in a lot of ways, like, because my previous two books and most of the projects I've done previously have been, mostly not narrative.
00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:07.130
And I'm really interested in moving towards doing more narrative work.
00:43:07.130 --> 00:43:20.512
And I have been doing a bit more, some of the science comics we've done in the last few years have been, we've done the series, called Luna and Simon, and that's been, we've basically been given, creative license essentially because, my friend Jamie is now high up enough in his career that he's running his own lab.
00:43:20.512 --> 00:43:22.762
So, so we are now working together as we want.
00:43:23.422 --> 00:43:24.621
So we've got a bit of creative license.
00:43:24.621 --> 00:43:33.494
So we went for like a real, kinda, it's a bit of like a Calvin Hobbes homage, this, little girl and her big brother, and they go on these like, adventures in science together.
00:43:34.485 --> 00:43:36.974
So I've been working slowly towards being much more of a narrative.
00:43:37.349 --> 00:43:40.019
Storytellers through comics and I really enjoyed that as well.
00:43:40.059 --> 00:43:45.679
I think the reason that I, for so many years, shied away from it was'cause I never felt confident in drawing the same thing twice.
00:43:45.978 --> 00:43:50.168
So, film ish was perfect for me because although I, I, the only thing I'd have to draw twice would be myself.
00:43:50.168 --> 00:43:57.197
but basically the, the credit I can give myself is realizing the hack for drawing things more than once.
00:43:57.228 --> 00:43:58.248
'cause I work digitally.
00:43:58.248 --> 00:44:03.240
I just draw a character sheet for that character, like a turnaround showing all different angles on them.
00:44:03.240 --> 00:44:10.831
And then I use that as a basis for the next drawing, which I didn't realize until like three years ago that I could do that.
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:15.148
And it feels like a cheat, you know, so many people are so amazing at drawing stuff from scratch each time.
00:44:15.148 --> 00:44:18.679
but I save so much time by at least having that basis that I can put in there.
00:44:18.697 --> 00:44:28.952
as a rough in the background, I can then use as the basis And then the other element that I feel like I really learned and was forced to learn was coloring because I've never been a confident colorist.
00:44:28.952 --> 00:44:31.621
I still not really a confident colorist, I'm guessing there.
00:44:32.132 --> 00:44:40.827
And that was a lot of it was to do with, having to work out how to teach the reader the basics of coloring, which I think, I never went to art school.
00:44:41.427 --> 00:44:42.538
I never really learned.
00:44:43.438 --> 00:44:52.530
And when I picked stuff up, I often end up creating very, like, muddy colors or because of the nature color theory where like one color next to another color changes your perception.
00:44:52.891 --> 00:44:57.610
You can put in a color going, oh, that's a vibrant color, and put in another color, and suddenly everything's really muddy.
00:44:57.612 --> 00:45:00.552
And I never realized what was going on essentially.
00:45:00.833 --> 00:45:13.682
So really working on the, the coloring sections has helped me a lot because although it's quite, stripped back and, and simplified information about coloring, I think it should, it helps me just to be able to refer to, you know, a few simple points.
00:45:13.682 --> 00:45:15.722
And your coloring confidence can really grow.
00:45:15.773 --> 00:45:16.128
Yeah.
00:45:16.128 --> 00:45:18.153
I think it's, there's so much in there.
00:45:18.153 --> 00:45:21.664
I just think it's something that people can go back and keep dipping in as well.
00:45:21.673 --> 00:45:33.284
You can access the information and, and have a go and then you can come back and like right now, this time I'm gonna, I want to really make sure I get my color in right or get my character silhouette right or whatever and keep going and dipping back into the information.
00:45:33.284 --> 00:45:35.653
I think it's great, really good resource.
00:45:36.014 --> 00:45:50.822
So at the end of the episode, to pick out a few kind of highlights or messages or something from your expertise or your experience going into schools that teachers, educators, listening, librarians might be able to put into practice, in their own settings.
00:45:51.163 --> 00:45:56.233
Anything that you would like to kind of summarize or emphasize at the end of the episode.
00:45:56.362 --> 00:45:56.652
Yeah.
00:45:56.733 --> 00:46:01.494
I my big takeaway I felt from our discussion and, and when I was thinking about it beforehand, was.
00:46:02.269 --> 00:46:07.159
I'd love to see, I would definitely love to see more comics use in the other, the other parts of the curriculum.
00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:08.630
I think that's really powerful.
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.715
I mean, we talk about science, I've done the science stuff.
00:46:10.715 --> 00:46:17.795
but you know, I think there's so much scope in like history and sociology, you know, sociological type subjects and, and you literally everything.
00:46:17.795 --> 00:46:18.275
Right?
00:46:18.606 --> 00:46:27.224
Um, I always talk to young people when I go to schools about, when you're creating something, create something that you're passionate about as like the very fundamental element.
00:46:28.065 --> 00:46:36.344
And I think the good thing about comics in a sense is that, you know, a lot, a lot of young people will struggle with certain subject matters.
00:46:36.405 --> 00:46:40.905
You know, the subjects in school, like they might struggle, they might not enjoy X or YI.
00:46:41.684 --> 00:46:42.704
Subject at school.
00:46:42.945 --> 00:46:54.494
So by bringing in something like comics, which they might have a passion for, or that brings quite a lot of fun because even if you're not a passionate about comics, there's like a, there's a certain anarchy and like fun to getting to do something like a comic.
00:46:54.704 --> 00:47:11.934
So I think it's a really good way to engage anyone, but engage students with a new way of looking at a subject that they might not be enjoying as much So there's a way to bring something in and from a teacher's perspective, hopefully like lightening up the curriculum a bit and, and, and adding a, a, a twist on things for them, but also from teacher's perspective.
00:47:12.505 --> 00:47:14.425
It's a really good way to see their learning.
00:47:14.664 --> 00:47:17.994
That's the thing is that you can see their learning through the thing that they produce.
00:47:18.144 --> 00:47:20.425
It's providing those opportunities as well, isn't it?
00:47:20.454 --> 00:47:21.954
So providing the option.
00:47:22.284 --> 00:47:36.025
So potentially, I mean, you know, I realize that teachers are really stretched and that they might not always have time to put this into action, but, you know, potentially having the option to make a comic as as, your response to an essay question or something.
00:47:36.445 --> 00:47:39.465
You don't need to draw, you can draw on those stick figures If you want.
00:47:39.494 --> 00:47:40.304
That's fine.
00:47:40.394 --> 00:47:47.144
They can be stick figures and you can do the closeup of the stick figure and the far way if if that's if that's gonna be a barrier for entry.
00:47:47.175 --> 00:47:49.425
'cause some, you know, some young people won't find.
00:47:49.889 --> 00:47:51.061
Confidence in their drawing.
00:47:51.061 --> 00:47:51.641
which is a shame.
00:47:51.641 --> 00:47:58.452
I feel like whenever I go into schools, there's certain, there's always one or two kids in a class who are like, can't draw.
00:47:58.452 --> 00:47:59.202
They can draw.
00:47:59.501 --> 00:48:04.092
But like there's, there's a kind of barrier where, where it's like they feel ashamed of like
00:48:04.436 --> 00:48:04.887
Yeah.
00:48:04.916 --> 00:48:14.070
It's, it's a thing, it's a bit for me, like people talk a lot about in education, about kind of confidence in maths and how that dwindles and, I think drawing is another one of those.
00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:23.748
Things, you know, young children aren't embarrassed about what, whether their drawing looks like something or not, they're really free and just making marks and will tell you what it is.
00:48:23.748 --> 00:48:28.157
And it's you that's daft If you dunno, it's not, it's not their drawing that's wrong.
00:48:28.588 --> 00:48:39.512
but then there, there's some sort of level of self-conscious that comes and, and I think part of that is also married to the fact that we, wean children off of drawing and writing at the same time.
00:48:39.536 --> 00:48:46.246
And it's start saying that writing is kind of the more important form and then drawing starts to not exist as a communication tool.
00:48:46.246 --> 00:48:52.891
It's a thing that just should look like some, an aesthetic thing, not a communication tool, in a school setting.
00:48:52.998 --> 00:48:53.387
Yeah.
00:48:53.387 --> 00:48:54.438
No, that's a really good point.
00:48:54.827 --> 00:48:55.157
Yeah.
00:48:55.188 --> 00:49:01.668
Making and that's, that is maybe where comics can come in really useful is because you can say it is about communication.
00:49:01.668 --> 00:49:05.414
You're using images to communicate, and it doesn't need to be super realistic or anything.
00:49:05.414 --> 00:49:06.914
It's just about communicating.
00:49:06.914 --> 00:49:13.554
And then also, I guess you can say like, think of it as like the plan, the planned version that you then present to the professional artists or whatever.
00:49:13.554 --> 00:49:17.844
You can, you can call it like the rough draft, but make sure it contains all the information we need.
00:49:18.309 --> 00:49:18.730
Yeah.
00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:20.349
And that's a good way of thinking of it.
00:49:22.936 --> 00:49:23.416
Brilliant.
00:49:23.416 --> 00:49:26.085
So finally, this one stumps people quite often.
00:49:26.114 --> 00:49:33.583
But if we were to add one comic or book brackets about comics To our too be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend that we read?
00:49:33.856 --> 00:49:41.496
So I was going to recommend I Shall Never Fall In Love by Harry Connor, which is, a book that shares a book birthday with me.
00:49:41.797 --> 00:49:47.510
And not only that, but I got, I met Harry at the Bookshop when they were going to sign their books.
00:49:47.510 --> 00:49:50.840
We kind both came to the shop at the same time and I was like, happy book.
00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:52.760
Happy Book birthday.
00:49:53.090 --> 00:50:01.940
Um, so it's a, it's a queer regency era romance, so it's like a kind of like a, a kind of queer Austen kinda story.
00:50:02.045 --> 00:50:04.536
sorry, you know, almost like Austen meets Alice Oseman.
00:50:04.596 --> 00:50:06.987
Um, and it's really fantastic.
00:50:07.003 --> 00:50:16.842
and also what's really fantastic is they're speaking to what we were talking about earlier is that the back of the book has all these, all these notes about how they research the book.
00:50:16.842 --> 00:50:19.552
So because it features like a trans character and.
00:50:20.523 --> 00:50:21.842
A black character as well.
00:50:21.842 --> 00:50:25.833
It talks, it, it dispels myths about the non-existence.
00:50:25.893 --> 00:50:32.043
You know, there's all these myths about the, the past was like straight and white essentially, but actually obviously all sorts of people have always existed.
00:50:32.043 --> 00:50:34.893
So, so it's, it, it is actually sort of the back.
00:50:34.893 --> 00:50:42.842
It says like, it goes through the research that was done and then all also amazing research about like, locations and clothing and hairstyles.
00:50:43.083 --> 00:50:54.596
So all speaking again as well to the, to the, to historiography and comics and So not only is it like a sweet romance, you know, for, for a sort of ya audience and, and adults.
00:50:54.608 --> 00:50:58.976
It's also, like really, really real well researched and shows that research in the back.
00:50:58.976 --> 00:51:01.527
So for the history nerd, you can go to the back and get all that.
00:51:01.527 --> 00:51:08.085
I, I mean, I, I put that in film as well, but I love that, you know, I love going to the back and like getting the kinda behind the scenes.
00:51:08.106 --> 00:51:09.157
Um, so that's great.
00:51:09.157 --> 00:51:09.847
Added value.
00:51:10.161 --> 00:51:11.092
that sounds, great.
00:51:11.121 --> 00:51:12.891
My daughter would definitely love that.
00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:15.210
so I'll be trying to get hold of a copy of that for her.
00:51:15.210 --> 00:51:17.760
She'll really enjoy it and I'm sure I'll read it to you when it comes.
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.750
That's my, that's my secret comic buying route that
00:51:21.764 --> 00:51:22.230
Oh, nice.
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:28.980
there's only so many I can buy for myself and then I start buying them for my children, the ones that I wanna read.
00:51:29.369 --> 00:51:30.900
Um,'cause I don't appear to be generous.
00:51:30.916 --> 00:51:33.407
and supporting my children's reading, but, you know, that sounds amazing.
00:51:33.407 --> 00:51:33.947
Thank you so much.
00:51:33.947 --> 00:51:34.306
And thank you.
00:51:34.456 --> 00:51:37.516
I feel like that has been a, such a good conversation.
00:51:37.516 --> 00:51:40.737
I've really, really enjoyed it and I've loved, the level of.
00:51:40.766 --> 00:51:42.242
Geekery that we could get to.
00:51:44.601 --> 00:51:48.561
So thank you for being my match on that.
00:51:49.222 --> 00:51:50.340
I really appreciate it.
00:51:53.117 --> 00:51:53.657
There having it.
00:51:53.657 --> 00:51:57.467
Thanks so much to Edward for spending time with me to talk about all of the things that interest him.
00:51:57.467 --> 00:51:58.367
I really loved it.
00:51:58.418 --> 00:52:02.588
It's been so great to get back into recording the podcast, back into conversations with people.
00:52:02.588 --> 00:52:04.088
I always find I learn something.
00:52:04.088 --> 00:52:12.342
There's never a conversation I have where I haven't been kind of nudged to think of things in a slightly different way or think of how things could be applied in a different way in the classroom.
00:52:12.458 --> 00:52:14.438
I find it really, really interesting.
00:52:14.438 --> 00:52:16.958
So thank you, Edward, for all of your great insights.
00:52:17.597 --> 00:52:19.458
Excellent recommendation there too.
00:52:19.487 --> 00:52:23.657
I'm gonna add my own recommendation, and I'm going to, I've been reading quite a lot of books recently.
00:52:23.657 --> 00:52:25.458
I've been doing some judging for some book awards.
00:52:25.708 --> 00:52:28.728
But one that I've straightaway been recommended it to other people.
00:52:28.878 --> 00:52:32.027
And I know that it's picked up some accolades recently as well.
00:52:32.027 --> 00:52:38.568
Winning the Ward Stone Children's Book awards Is Rune the Tale of A Thousand Faces by Carlos Sanchez.
00:52:38.568 --> 00:52:48.827
Published by Flying Eye and it's a beautiful fantasy, I would say from age eight plus, maybe with more interest the older.
00:52:49.467 --> 00:52:53.068
There's some, it's not necessarily about suitability, but just interest level.
00:52:53.068 --> 00:53:01.681
I think probably that nine, 10 years old plus, a really beautiful comic, gorgeous pastel tones, a portal adventure.
00:53:01.681 --> 00:53:04.260
These two children go into another realm.
00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:05.460
I love that kind of setup.
00:53:05.543 --> 00:53:07.253
And this has got something really unique about it.
00:53:07.253 --> 00:53:11.594
So the best friend's characters, Chiri and Dai Chiri, is deaf.
00:53:11.744 --> 00:53:20.204
And she, she uses sign language and you see the sign language being used in the comic panels and then there's kinda speech bubbles coming off from the sign language.
00:53:20.364 --> 00:53:21.653
it is really cool concept.
00:53:21.653 --> 00:53:28.284
And then that is also a key part without telling too much the use of sign language is also something that's really key.
00:53:28.514 --> 00:53:32.983
In this other realm that they go into a brilliant, magical adventure.
00:53:33.224 --> 00:53:38.023
And it is very, very beautiful and a great story and some really interesting concepts within it.
00:53:38.023 --> 00:53:45.757
So definitely want to look out for, I've been recommending that to people, over the last few weeks'cause it really, stayed with me after I read it, which is always a really good sign.
00:53:45.807 --> 00:53:48.268
Thanks again to a LCS for sponsoring today's episode.
00:53:48.268 --> 00:54:00.608
As you know, we often have writers and on comic boom like Edward, speaking about their work, and A LCS is a not-for-profit organization supporting it's 120,000 plus members to collect money for all of the secondary uses of their work.
00:54:00.608 --> 00:54:06.697
Things like photocopies, digital reproductions, even be the book being used in education and they.
00:54:06.992 --> 00:54:13.083
Also provide some really fantastic resources to support educators to explore topics like copyright and plagiarism in the classroom.
00:54:13.262 --> 00:54:18.123
And you can check those out on the links in the show notes on the ALCS website.
00:54:18.123 --> 00:54:31.159
They've got some excellent educational resources there, which I think, uh, is really important, especially in this age of AI that we think, um, really carefully about plagiarism and making sure that creative individuals are credited for their, for their own genius.
00:54:31.429 --> 00:54:33.108
Essentially and not just ripped off.
00:54:33.108 --> 00:54:44.018
I always get a little bit, I feel, a little bit sad when I see these, things like, you know, recently there's been a big trend of, producing images in the style of, studio Ghibli and I.
00:54:44.668 --> 00:54:46.378
And that's somebody else's genius.
00:54:46.378 --> 00:54:46.679
There.
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:48.478
Don't, don't rip it off using, using ai.
00:54:48.909 --> 00:54:52.635
so there's lots of different resources available for teachers, on the A LCS website.
00:54:53.007 --> 00:54:56.606
and over the next few weeks I'll be highlighting a bit more of their work.
00:54:56.606 --> 00:55:00.567
You can also go back, they sponsored the last season of Comic Boom and there's interview on the end of.
00:55:00.927 --> 00:55:12.695
At the last three episodes, talking to Barbara, their CEO, about their work, and we talk about ai, and then the importance of putting some parameters, to ensure that people's work is protected, in the age of ai.
00:55:12.695 --> 00:55:14.556
So I found that a really interesting conversation.
00:55:14.556 --> 00:55:17.916
You can go back and listen to that and I'll put those links in the show notes too.
00:55:18.425 --> 00:55:26.768
But as, for me, since the last episode, quite rightly, there's been a real shift, um, away from certain social media platforms I'm still going to be promoting.
00:55:26.855 --> 00:55:28.235
The show on X.
00:55:28.324 --> 00:55:30.094
'cause I think that's where most people hear about it.
00:55:30.094 --> 00:55:38.628
But I am also going to be trying to bring in some new, social media platforms, into the mix as well to try and reach as many people as possible.
00:55:38.838 --> 00:55:41.657
So if you can share the, the podcast.
00:55:41.777 --> 00:55:42.827
We are on Instagram.
00:55:42.827 --> 00:55:43.637
We are on Twitter.
00:55:43.637 --> 00:55:44.838
We will be on Blue Sky.
00:55:44.838 --> 00:55:46.217
I will get that sorted.
00:55:46.219 --> 00:55:56.789
And do, let me know, drop me a message if there's a platform that you think will be really, really good for getting the word out there, reaching teachers, librarians, anyone interested in comics and education.
00:55:56.804 --> 00:55:58.454
Really love to have a bit of feedback on that.
00:55:58.485 --> 00:56:10.340
Because I'm wanting, to move away from quite toxic, social media, sites, but still obviously think that the work in of the podcast is really important and I want to help, it find its audience, in the best way possible.
00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:21.548
So yeah, do drop me a line if you've got any suggestions and as always, your recommendations, sharing with your colleagues, sharing with people that you know might be interested is always, really important, especially at the start of a new season.
00:56:21.548 --> 00:56:24.594
So if you can do a bit of liking and sharing, I would love you forever.
00:56:25.001 --> 00:56:26.532
That's it from me this week.
00:56:26.561 --> 00:56:31.351
We'll be back with another episode next week you've been listening to Comic Boom.
00:56:31.561 --> 00:56:34.141
With me, Lucy Starbuck Braley, the producer and host.
00:56:34.172 --> 00:56:34.981
Thanks for listening.
00:00:09.339 --> 00:00:12.909
Hello and welcome to Comic Boom, the Comics and Education podcast.
00:00:13.148 --> 00:00:18.309
If you are interested in hearing more about the crossover between comics and education, then this is the podcast for you.
00:00:18.638 --> 00:00:36.789
My name is Lucy Star Bradly, and each week I'll be joined by a fellow educator, an academic, a librarian, or a creator of comics, to discuss their journey into comics and provide some inspiration to influence your practice, and hopefully as well shine some light on some titles you can bring into your libraries and classrooms, and hopefully onto your bookshelves at home too.
00:00:37.524 --> 00:00:45.923
This episode of Comic Boom is sponsored by A LCS, the author's licensing and collecting society, and it is absolutely great to be back.
00:00:46.043 --> 00:00:49.134
We've got some brilliant episodes to share with you over the next few weeks.
00:00:49.374 --> 00:00:51.323
This season is gonna be split into two.
00:00:51.323 --> 00:00:55.515
We'll be running five episodes this term in the summer, taken a short break.
00:00:55.610 --> 00:00:59.180
And then coming back with another five episodes in the autumn term.
00:00:59.180 --> 00:01:01.161
I've got so much good content to bring you.
00:01:01.188 --> 00:01:11.063
thanks again to the brilliant A LCS, the authors licensing and collecting society for keeping the mics hot and the lights on for Helping me run the podcast again for another year.
00:01:11.093 --> 00:01:17.424
I really, really appreciate the support and I'll be talking a little bit more about their work at the end of the episode to kickstart this season of Comic Boom.
00:01:17.424 --> 00:01:19.793
I am talking to Edward Ross.
00:01:20.093 --> 00:01:28.837
Edward Ross is an Edinburgh based comic book writer, artist, and illustrator with an early obsession and interest in cinema and comics.
00:01:29.018 --> 00:01:35.888
It wasn't until after studying film at university that he managed to combine these two interests and form his first self-published comics.
00:01:36.147 --> 00:01:39.808
Film ish comics and we'll be talking a lot about that today.
00:01:39.858 --> 00:01:53.850
Edwards and I do go off slightly off track and talk a little bit about film, but I think it's really interesting'cause it's all part of his journey and really interlinked with his first graphic novel, film ish, a graphic novel through film, which was published by Self-Made Hero.
00:01:53.855 --> 00:01:57.058
that was an award-winning book and it's a really, really interesting read.
00:01:57.058 --> 00:02:00.718
And then he went on to create Gamish, a graphic history of gaming.
00:02:00.817 --> 00:02:11.858
I'm really interested in that link between different cultural elements, film games and comics, and how they all interlink and inform each other, and I find it a really fascinating conversation.
00:02:11.890 --> 00:02:14.439
we also talk about his latest book.
00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:22.969
Graphic Novel Builder, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics, which is a fun and accessible guide to creativity for ages 11 plus.
00:02:23.030 --> 00:02:26.413
I think definitely one for year five and six would really enjoy in primary.
00:02:26.425 --> 00:02:28.705
so yeah, I'd, I'd nudge that a little bit earlier.
00:02:28.925 --> 00:02:30.425
To maybe nine, plus.
00:02:30.425 --> 00:02:34.455
Edward's also worked in a number of science themed comics in collaboration with Dr.
00:02:34.455 --> 00:02:44.069
James Hall for universities, for museums, charities to explain and bring to life the kind of scientific concepts that they're working with and bring that to a wider audience through, comics.
00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:47.430
It's a really interesting area, these science comics, and we talk about that as well.
00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:50.069
There was so much to talk about with Edward.
00:02:50.069 --> 00:02:51.719
I had an absolutely brilliant time.
00:02:51.931 --> 00:02:53.640
I think you really enjoy this episode.
00:02:53.881 --> 00:02:55.230
Here's what Edward had to say.
00:02:59.330 --> 00:02:59.961
Hello Edward.
00:02:59.961 --> 00:03:00.980
Welcome to Comic Boom.
00:03:01.127 --> 00:03:01.366
Hi.
00:03:01.366 --> 00:03:02.417
Thank you for having me.
00:03:02.431 --> 00:03:10.271
Can you tell us to start off, I always start the episode by, asking people to tell us a little bit about their journey as a comics reader.
00:03:10.301 --> 00:03:12.372
So when did you first start to read comics?
00:03:12.372 --> 00:03:14.126
When did that sort of become part of your life?
00:03:14.175 --> 00:03:20.584
I think as long as I can remember really, I grew up reading, the Beano and, uh, not the Dandy.
00:03:20.674 --> 00:03:32.264
I I was like a Beano head uh, always, even, even had a sort of element of, um, suspicion when Dandy characters ended up kind of joining the Beano.
00:03:32.313 --> 00:03:33.093
I was like, I'm not sure.
00:03:33.789 --> 00:03:34.235
I don't know.
00:03:34.235 --> 00:03:34.866
I dunno why.
00:03:35.195 --> 00:03:38.526
Um, but, um, but yeah, the Beano was huge for me growing up.
00:03:38.526 --> 00:03:40.596
I remember I had a huge, like an enormous stack.
00:03:40.955 --> 00:03:42.936
Almost falling over next to my bed
00:03:43.235 --> 00:03:44.915
And did you know it was Scottish at the time?
00:03:44.966 --> 00:03:53.786
No, no, I didn't, I didn't appreciate it was Scottish for until I was, I think maybe still while I was still reading a bit older, but certainly not for a long time.
00:03:53.996 --> 00:03:58.735
But I know the, the, the legacy of Scottish comics is strong.
00:03:59.126 --> 00:03:59.186
Um,
00:03:59.425 --> 00:03:59.906
Yeah,
00:04:00.381 --> 00:04:03.925
but I did obviously know that er, Willie and the Bruins were Scottish,
00:04:04.045 --> 00:04:04.406
yeah,
00:04:04.496 --> 00:04:05.605
of hard to miss.
00:04:06.036 --> 00:04:07.895
I loved er Willie and I hated the Bruss.
00:04:07.925 --> 00:04:21.927
I dunno, I couldn't get with that, but, um, yeah, definitely the Beano and then we had, my brother had a sort of big stack of, um, those peanuts mini collections, and we had a bunch of those with the covers falling off.
00:04:22.247 --> 00:04:23.201
so I grew up loving those.
00:04:23.201 --> 00:04:28.045
And I think with peanuts and then with Calvin and Hobbs, which is my, my true love in comics.
00:04:28.286 --> 00:04:28.706
too.
00:04:28.884 --> 00:04:33.846
I think that was, I think that's what sustained me kind of a bit older in a way.
00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:39.560
Because with, certainly, well with both of them, but with Calvin Hobbs especially, there's so much to go back to.
00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:45.110
So as you become an adolescent and then a teenager, you can actually go back and you just rediscover all these new things
00:04:45.425 --> 00:04:47.196
the layers of meaning in it.
00:04:47.346 --> 00:04:47.826
Yeah,
00:04:47.939 --> 00:04:54.298
I was in a high school yesterday and when I was mentioning Calvin Hobbs, the blank stares,'cause obviously it's a cultural thing.
00:04:54.298 --> 00:04:55.887
It's not really relevant anymore.
00:04:55.887 --> 00:05:01.918
But I was like, oh, but you, I was just thinking if I could convince one of these kids to pick up Calvin and hopes that would be a win.
00:05:02.353 --> 00:05:02.923
Yeah.
00:05:03.023 --> 00:05:05.122
if I do teacher training about comics.
00:05:05.213 --> 00:05:10.252
At the end I always like to share like the final, ever the last ever Calvin Hobbs where they like going off on a toboggan.
00:05:10.642 --> 00:05:11.752
I just think it's really poignant.
00:05:11.752 --> 00:05:12.052
I love
00:05:12.083 --> 00:05:12.473
Oh yeah.
00:05:12.773 --> 00:05:13.312
It's so good.
00:05:13.762 --> 00:05:29.579
Yeah, and I think to this day, I, it is something I aspire to in my own work where possible is just capturing some of that spirit, you know, uh, I guess like a, a mixture of kind of childlike wonder and, that sort of depth, that emotional and, and philosophical depth as well.
00:05:29.850 --> 00:05:31.050
I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm achieving that.
00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:34.709
I'm just saying that I would like to achieve, I would like to aspire to that.
00:05:34.709 --> 00:05:42.240
And, and I always keep that in mind as, as something that, that kind of level of, um, accessibility and then depth, you know.
00:05:42.990 --> 00:05:43.290
Yeah.
00:05:43.290 --> 00:05:44.399
Yeah, it is incredible.
00:05:44.495 --> 00:05:55.374
and I think it because of the characters, I feel like people could easily just walk on by or like dismiss it with, without realizing quite how great it is.
00:05:57.987 --> 00:06:02.353
so in terms of this comic reading that you were doing, you when you were younger, who instigated that?
00:06:02.353 --> 00:06:04.723
Was that your, were your parents really supportive?
00:06:04.752 --> 00:06:07.273
Was it part of your reading diet at school?
00:06:07.333 --> 00:06:10.872
Were comics embraced in, in school as you were growing up, how did that fit in?
00:06:11.142 --> 00:06:12.192
de definitely.
00:06:12.192 --> 00:06:12.403
Yeah.
00:06:12.403 --> 00:06:14.862
No, definitely not exactly.
00:06:14.963 --> 00:06:19.702
You know, like there was, I, I can't remember even mention, I think it was definitely separated.
00:06:19.702 --> 00:06:20.452
It was two things.
00:06:20.452 --> 00:06:26.692
There was going home and reading comics, and there was going to school and, and not, you know, I think in a sense a lot of it was like.
00:06:27.418 --> 00:06:29.908
I mean, with the Beano, there's such a legacy in that.
00:06:29.908 --> 00:06:38.197
Like I think, you know, my dad probably read up, grew up, grew up reading it, and certainly my brother, who's a bit older than me grew up reading the Beanos.
00:06:38.218 --> 00:06:45.468
So I had, a legacy stack of, you know, seventies and or, and eighties Beanos, to get me started.
00:06:45.798 --> 00:07:00.737
So I think it, I think it was very much that it was kind of, they, they were around, around the house and um, and then my, my, uh, my nana used to, used to cut, we Oor Willie and the Broons out of, is it the Sunday post and post them to us,
00:07:02.392 --> 00:07:02.682
Cute.
00:07:02.687 --> 00:07:03.408
very sweet.
00:07:05.447 --> 00:07:07.067
And what is it that you think pulled you in?
00:07:07.067 --> 00:07:09.685
Was it, drawing, the artistic side, the story?
00:07:09.685 --> 00:07:11.964
Or was it that sort of essential combination of both?
00:07:11.966 --> 00:07:20.619
Yeah, I mean, I was like, oh, you know, I grew up definitely being a huge drawer and I was making comics probably from the age of about eight or nine myself.
00:07:20.678 --> 00:07:21.009
Um.
00:07:21.684 --> 00:07:25.074
So I think it was always the both of it.
00:07:25.403 --> 00:07:28.673
And I, yeah.
00:07:28.673 --> 00:07:28.884
Good.
00:07:29.004 --> 00:07:29.663
Any good question.
00:07:29.663 --> 00:07:35.213
I think I, I, I drew, I think I drew to tell stories, if that makes sense.
00:07:35.213 --> 00:07:42.144
So it wasn't like, and although I would've loved to have drawn better, I never was drawing to draw.
00:07:42.144 --> 00:07:43.524
Well, if that
00:07:43.733 --> 00:07:45.803
As like practicing it as a skill, it was
00:07:45.834 --> 00:07:46.434
yeah.
00:07:46.434 --> 00:08:00.173
I was, I, I, I never really kinda got into, I mean, I did a bit of it, but I never really got into like, you know, drawing still lifes or, or, um, or even like, even like now, like I've barely done any, like life drawing, you know?
00:08:00.173 --> 00:08:04.651
So it's like, it was never, the technical end of it was never that, interesting to me.
00:08:04.651 --> 00:08:10.326
It was, it was always much more the opportunity to tell stories and to draw fun things and, and have, have fun with it.
00:08:11.016 --> 00:08:11.576
Yeah.
00:08:14.024 --> 00:08:16.574
so we've heard a little bit about what you're reading when you were younger.
00:08:16.783 --> 00:08:19.994
What kind of things are in your reading diet now?
00:08:20.242 --> 00:08:34.062
I, I kinda went off reading for a really long time, I think in post university I fell off all my good habits of reading and of even what, like,'cause I went to study film and even like watching like interesting movies fell off for a while as well.
00:08:34.062 --> 00:08:34.241
It was
00:08:34.542 --> 00:08:41.023
Yeah, I, I did film at uni as well, and I, I still haven't really picked it back up watching films.
00:08:41.096 --> 00:08:44.576
I just like, yeah, I want to, I've got children now.
00:08:44.726 --> 00:08:52.197
I find it, like, I feel like I'm got, sorry, this is slightly off track, but justifying, getting a babysitter to go to the cinema just seems, seems a step too far for me.
00:08:52.197 --> 00:08:56.668
I just, I feel like I'm gonna, when I'm in my next, the next decade, that's when I'm gonna read.
00:08:56.668 --> 00:09:00.239
That's when my indie film Love is gonna come back.
00:09:00.239 --> 00:09:00.778
I can feel it.
00:09:01.288 --> 00:09:05.188
so we, we were similar, but we had kids and, and that was like a big thing.
00:09:05.193 --> 00:09:08.908
And then, and then covid and then, and then kinda falling off that habit.
00:09:09.239 --> 00:09:20.879
So yeah, I have to say I've not been to the cinema hardly any in the last few years, but, um, what we started doing again, we're very much off topic, but what we started doing was, uh, having, um, home film festivals.
00:09:20.908 --> 00:09:21.089
So
00:09:21.173 --> 00:09:21.634
Oh, cute.
00:09:21.778 --> 00:09:27.869
we'll pick a theme and then me and my partner will pick a bunch of films to watch together.
00:09:27.869 --> 00:09:33.328
So she'll pick some and I'll pick some, and then we'll kind of watch, watch along across a theme.
00:09:33.328 --> 00:09:35.609
And it's actually been a really fun way to get started again.
00:09:35.609 --> 00:09:39.869
And to also like challenge yourselves a bit because you're searching for.
00:09:40.634 --> 00:09:42.403
Those gems within that theme.
00:09:42.403 --> 00:09:47.173
So we did a season on train films, for example, film set on trains.
00:09:48.614 --> 00:09:53.683
uh, but that like, and you know, you end up kind of within that, you've got all sorts of things you can be drawing on.
00:09:53.683 --> 00:10:03.943
You can have thrillers, action movies, or you can have like intimate little dramas that are set in, you know, on a train or, um, so, so that's been a really good way for us to get back into watching films.
00:10:03.943 --> 00:10:14.970
And I, what I found it really interesting was I, you know, I guess through like turbulent political times and having kids and covid and all that, it's like you often turn to entertainment for that.
00:10:14.970 --> 00:10:17.700
Kind of just like, oh, just let me put something on.
00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:21.120
And you're not, you're not really emotionally prepared.
00:10:21.299 --> 00:10:25.919
Yeah, not really emotionally prepared to foc uh, to face, like having to feel something
00:10:26.414 --> 00:10:26.835
Yeah,
00:10:27.059 --> 00:10:28.289
or, or think about something.
00:10:28.409 --> 00:10:32.220
But actually I find as soon as I, as soon as we start putting on more challenging movies, again.
00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:40.950
I was, um, oh, well I was feeling you, you do feel something, but also it's like really cathartic and, actually not actually that much hard work.
00:10:41.100 --> 00:10:54.509
I mean, I'm, you know, not putting on like, the most depressing stuff, but, but trying to, trying to watch something that that's like, got some resonance and actually the rewards far outstrips the, um, the potential.
00:10:54.509 --> 00:10:57.299
Like have you, you know, and essentially kinda perk up.
00:10:57.330 --> 00:10:58.679
So instead of like sitting there like
00:10:59.205 --> 00:10:59.715
Yeah,
00:11:00.284 --> 00:11:03.299
slug, like on the couch, you kinda go like, oh wow, this is really engaging me.
00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:04.289
And you, you wake up
00:11:04.365 --> 00:11:04.725
You've got
00:11:04.740 --> 00:11:05.129
you know?
00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:13.259
Some processes going on in the brain rather than just, eh, which is my, my evening go-to at the moment.
00:11:13.710 --> 00:11:14.759
Um, that sounds great.
00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:19.057
But film is is relevant to your journey as a comics creator.
00:11:19.206 --> 00:11:19.476
Is it?
00:11:19.476 --> 00:11:22.476
Can you tell us a little bit about how you got started in Yeah.
00:11:22.476 --> 00:11:23.616
Making comics
00:11:24.006 --> 00:11:24.456
Yeah.
00:11:24.636 --> 00:11:31.152
So I, I guess beyond, beyond primary schools where I had my cartoon character Skipper, a cat that lived in a skip.
00:11:31.631 --> 00:11:38.972
Um, but, so I had that character running for, for years, you know, at high school it kind of dropped off the comics making.
00:11:39.302 --> 00:12:00.363
Um, I still was an avid doodler in the margins and I had sketchbooks that I would draw often, like sort of fan art of, characters from eels songs or, um, or like Bell and Sebastian lyrics or Manic Street Preachers lyrics, you know, my go-to teenage, uh, music, I was a lot of her angsty imagery in my sketchbooks.
00:12:00.456 --> 00:12:12.759
but my, now partner who I met when we were just like 16, and she actually sort of opened my eyes to the wider world of comics, so she, she reintroduced me to you.
00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:13.509
I had been reading.
00:12:13.929 --> 00:12:25.720
Calvin Hobbs and peanuts and things, and I'd, I'd start to get an inkling of like, there's cooler stuff out there, because as an avid Eels fan, he often featured like Adrian Toni, um, and like Seth in the, in the liner notes.
00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:27.789
So I I I was like, oh, this is cool.
00:12:27.789 --> 00:12:28.750
But I didn't like know
00:12:28.750 --> 00:12:31.975
Now, back when music came with stuff around
00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:32.769
Yeah.
00:12:32.830 --> 00:12:33.970
Which, yeah, and exactly.
00:12:33.970 --> 00:12:40.750
I had a kind of cross pollination and, um, like around that time, ghost World came out as well, and I remember getting a copy of Ghost World.
00:12:40.802 --> 00:12:49.919
but yeah, my partner like, was like, oh look, all this stuff that, that exists out there, and it, it was like completely eyeopening and lots of like, obviously very angsty teenage stuff.
00:12:49.938 --> 00:12:58.188
and I, a lot of superhero stuff as well, but it really started me on a journey and, you know, she was on the same journey of, of just discovering this huge, wider world of comics.
00:12:58.188 --> 00:13:01.308
And this was all through the libraries here in Edinburgh that she would.
00:13:01.818 --> 00:13:04.519
Go out and, and pick up a bunch of comics and we'd read them.
00:13:04.653 --> 00:13:06.634
and there was a really, really good selection.
00:13:06.634 --> 00:13:10.504
So that's really what got, got started on that kind of further journey into reading.
00:13:10.803 --> 00:13:23.576
And then, inspired by that really I got back into make to making comics as well and sort of realizing that I could tell, stories more kind of, uh, engaging and interesting to me at that age, you know, essentially.
00:13:23.605 --> 00:13:24.926
'cause I think that's a real thing.
00:13:24.956 --> 00:13:33.101
Um, you know, I was in the school yesterday and I did a talk to the first year of high school, then the second year of high school.
00:13:33.139 --> 00:13:36.648
so like, you know, 11, 12 year olds and then I guess sort of 13, 14 year olds.
00:13:36.798 --> 00:13:39.467
And then, I mean, there, there's, there's two things going on here.
00:13:39.467 --> 00:13:47.628
But basically, you know, like I asked you how many people here read comics and when it was the first years they, they, you know, I dunno, like maybe 45% put their hands up.
00:13:47.988 --> 00:13:55.643
And then, and then for the older year, um, like two hands went up and I know there's other factors there.
00:13:55.643 --> 00:13:58.822
I know the factors about not wanting to stand out and all this stuff, but I
00:13:58.852 --> 00:14:01.253
also just I wonder what their wider reading level is.
00:14:01.253 --> 00:14:02.663
'cause certainly my daughter's an avid reader.
00:14:02.842 --> 00:14:06.653
Reader, but she's in year 10 now, and that's just, there's just no time.
00:14:06.802 --> 00:14:09.337
It's just like revision and, yeah.
00:14:09.623 --> 00:14:11.903
Um, so, so there's multiple factors there.
00:14:11.903 --> 00:14:14.932
But I also wouldn't be surprised if, you know, that was for myself as well.
00:14:14.932 --> 00:14:19.192
Like the falling off happens in that, in that, in that age group.
00:14:19.197 --> 00:14:21.206
and you need something then to spark that again.
00:14:21.206 --> 00:14:26.366
'cause I think obviously comics have, um, that appeal to ev everyone potentially.
00:14:26.366 --> 00:14:30.537
And it's just finding the, the work that's out there and having yourself exposed to it and
00:14:30.615 --> 00:14:33.076
Yeah, and I wonder if there's something, I'm just thinking aloud here.
00:14:33.076 --> 00:14:34.365
I've never really thought this thought before.
00:14:34.404 --> 00:14:49.357
but around like comics that bridge, that the age ranges, because like one, if you are kind of grown out of the stuff that you liked when you were younger and then you don't, but you don't know what to read next, then I think there's also that sort of breaking point where it's like, well, I can't read those things.
00:14:49.357 --> 00:14:56.048
I, my reader identity was attached to something that I'm no longer very interested in, and I don't know where to go next if you don't have that kind of
00:14:56.393 --> 00:15:06.472
I've seen, a lot of, I've seen some calls online recently from children's office saying that there's like a gap in the market essentially between, I, I mean, I don't really know what the markets are called.
00:15:06.472 --> 00:15:06.982
It's like middle
00:15:07.447 --> 00:15:07.988
Yeah.
00:15:07.988 --> 00:15:08.288
And then ya
00:15:08.452 --> 00:15:14.692
like, n ya, and there's a kind of gap there that's like a transitional space where it is like the, ya can sometimes be a bit hard.
00:15:15.315 --> 00:15:24.326
but the kid stuff's too, kid kiddy, you know, they're, they're outgrowing, they're wanting, they're hunger for like emotionally resonant stories and, and they're a bit more depth and a bit more independence.
00:15:24.857 --> 00:15:27.408
And there's maybe a gap in the market there that needs, that
00:15:27.572 --> 00:15:37.432
I guess that's where that also it is the fact that publishing is an industry as well becomes a bit of a, an issue in that reading dips off then, so there's not a market, and then it is like chicken and egg.
00:15:37.567 --> 00:15:38.857
a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:15:38.857 --> 00:15:39.398
Yeah.
00:15:39.668 --> 00:15:40.118
Yeah.
00:15:42.666 --> 00:15:44.464
so, back to my journey, I suppose.
00:15:44.509 --> 00:15:52.519
I got back into making comics, but I, I was like, I was always convinced from a very young age that I was going to be a movie director.
00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:53.659
I was gonna be a filmmaker.
00:15:54.049 --> 00:15:58.460
Um, but, you know, I'd grown up with these dual passions of film and comics essentially.
00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.669
And, uh, and so I went off to study film university.
00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:05.570
Um, but, I did a joint degree with, uh, English literature.
00:16:05.570 --> 00:16:12.500
And actually English literature was the thing that really sparked me, even though I was never like the biggest reader.
00:16:12.830 --> 00:16:16.370
But what I, what really interested me was just in the nature of the.
00:16:16.470 --> 00:16:20.730
Literature course was that we had all these like subunits about different topics.
00:16:20.730 --> 00:16:26.549
So we did like a, a unit on like, what was it?
00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:30.029
It was on, it was like on the, the body and horror.
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:36.149
And um, I ended up doing an essay on like food and Horror in Under the Skin.
00:16:37.110 --> 00:16:38.490
It's a very longwinded story.
00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:39.240
Um,
00:16:39.414 --> 00:16:40.440
loving the details.
00:16:40.590 --> 00:16:45.240
um, but that then like totally sparked something off in my mind because I was fa passionate about film.
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:53.254
I was like, I'm gonna take this kind of,'cause the film course we were doing, it was never that granular, but I, you know, it was never like, oh, well look at this little fascinating element.
00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:57.629
It was, it was, the films had never quite captured me, but this thing did.
00:16:57.629 --> 00:17:00.600
So I kind of whisked that over to films.
00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:05.315
I did my dissertation on film and I did it on Food Horror in the Body in, Asian cinema.
00:17:05.315 --> 00:17:07.279
So this was like me taking like.
00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:18.385
My kind of nerdy passion for like this really niche little concept that really sparked all these ideas about food and horror and took over to film and that's where sort of filming started to fall together, I suppose.
00:17:18.385 --> 00:17:30.086
And when I came outta university, as I was still trying to pursue writing for film or, or writing a short film to make a short film, but I just wasn't getting anywhere because I didn't have like the self-confidence at that age.
00:17:30.326 --> 00:17:37.915
Probably don't have the self-confidence now to be honest, to like do the things necessary to like bring together a cast and a crew and funding and all that stuff.
00:17:37.915 --> 00:17:39.536
I was, it seemed so huge.
00:17:39.536 --> 00:17:43.766
I ended up just going of chipping away at a script for ages, almost like putting off the inevitable.
00:17:44.365 --> 00:17:50.980
But at the same time I got back into comics and making comics and, and kind of getting interested in this idea that with comics I could just do it.
00:17:50.980 --> 00:17:54.868
I could just put something out there and it would be much more easy and accessible.
00:17:54.917 --> 00:17:58.932
and I was working at the film house, independent cinema in Edburg at the time.
00:17:59.301 --> 00:18:03.501
they sort of saw what I was doing and someone suggested that I could just think for their newsletter about film.
00:18:03.501 --> 00:18:08.580
So that's where film ish kind of was first, inspired was to do a little thing for their, their newsletter.
00:18:09.121 --> 00:18:11.131
And there, from there I was like, oh, this is really fun.
00:18:11.131 --> 00:18:21.946
Like this is me taking, like loving that granular sort of, academic analysis of stuff that's come from these weird different angles and enjoying drawing and loving film and just that
00:18:22.474 --> 00:18:34.894
That is something that kind of feels like really distinct about like the stuff that, the things people write dissertations on, the things people get into at university, and then you leave behind that really specific interest that chance.
00:18:34.894 --> 00:18:42.404
So it's quite cool to be able to have a avenue with which to still explore those aspects and find new things out.
00:18:42.494 --> 00:18:42.644
It's
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:43.380
Yeah.
00:18:43.470 --> 00:18:47.160
And I always felt like, you know, I always really loved reading.
00:18:47.789 --> 00:18:52.559
Those papers on those weird little things that people had become fascinated with.
00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:59.805
But I also always understood them to be often quite hard to read, like quite hard to, especially for an outsider.
00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:05.204
So I also felt like there's all these like really interesting ideas buried in tech, in textbooks essentially.
00:19:05.204 --> 00:19:06.805
And I guess that's what film, you know, Filmish came in.
00:19:06.825 --> 00:19:17.325
I was trying to, I was essentially trying to go, trying to present these things to people and show like how interesting it can be to look at film from these different academic perspectives and to think about film in these new lights.
00:19:17.714 --> 00:19:22.335
But I wanted to do it in a way that was really, really accessible.
00:19:22.394 --> 00:19:25.053
Just really easy to read, or relatively easy to read.
00:19:25.728 --> 00:19:26.018
Yeah.
00:19:26.865 --> 00:19:27.464
happened from there?
00:19:27.464 --> 00:19:30.653
So how, how did you end up with your first published book?
00:19:31.221 --> 00:19:44.240
so I started, yeah, so with, with film ish, you know, I wrote that little, a couple of little short ones for the newsletter at the film has, and I was like, I think my dad suggested like, why don't you put this to package this together and, make a little zine out of it.
00:19:44.304 --> 00:19:48.473
so I wrote another longer essay to kinda pad it out to make a sort of 20 page comic.
00:19:48.993 --> 00:19:53.314
I printed a hundred copies, um, just fully black and white thing, right?
00:19:53.344 --> 00:20:06.693
You know, it was like a pound of copy or something to print, and then took it into the film house where I was working and used, used my connections in as a box office person to put it on the, on the counter and put it on sale.
00:20:06.693 --> 00:20:09.814
So I sold them for three pounds each, the film house to take a little cut.
00:20:10.473 --> 00:20:19.564
And then I would, I just basically took the, the profits off of that and, and went and printed another hundred copies and, you know, saw, saw it roll from there.
00:20:20.054 --> 00:20:24.753
I did four issues, over the next few years, each one on a different topic.
00:20:25.473 --> 00:20:35.804
And, you know, from there like, it, it was just, I guess like a kind of cool indie thing that existed in, in Edinburgh and that people, picked up and thought was kinda interesting and cool.
00:20:36.624 --> 00:20:40.074
I started doing like comic conventions and selling at comic conventions.
00:20:40.074 --> 00:20:48.038
And I then probably around 2012, so only a couple years into doing film ish, like I started, I thought, oh, maybe I could do a book of this.
00:20:48.108 --> 00:20:50.148
so I started pitching to different publishers.
00:20:50.749 --> 00:21:00.679
And then finally, uh, in about 2013, so it's two years before the book came out, the editor at Self made Hero said yes to, to the idea of doing a book.
00:21:00.679 --> 00:21:03.888
And I was like, I was very happy indeed.
00:21:04.354 --> 00:21:11.134
I was interested, you picked up on the kind of type of academic reading from university, but do you like to read nonfiction comics?
00:21:11.134 --> 00:21:17.594
Is that kind of your personal reading preference or, how are those two things linked really like your reading and, and your writing, or are they not?
00:21:17.594 --> 00:21:20.384
Do you read very different things to, what you produce in your own work?
00:21:21.328 --> 00:21:24.778
Yeah, I mean, as I said that, like I've been a bit of a bad reader.
00:21:25.423 --> 00:21:25.993
Yeah.
00:21:26.368 --> 00:21:33.388
Non-fiction comics do interest me in as much as nonfiction subjects certainly can interest me.
00:21:33.439 --> 00:21:37.128
I think there's a real challenge at the heart of nonfiction comics because.
00:21:37.554 --> 00:21:39.653
Comics inherently are your words and pictures.
00:21:39.653 --> 00:22:04.413
And I find with some, you know, some, some nonfiction comics, I think struggle and maybe my own struggle with like that balance right between words and pictures and, you have like a really fascinating story or a fascinating history or a fascinating something that by doing it as a comic you almost just have to, you have to strip out so much because for it to be fully, realized in all its depth and complexity and detail, actually probably be better off writing a,
00:22:05.074 --> 00:22:07.594
Yeah, it's not necessarily the best form for
00:22:07.653 --> 00:22:12.992
So it's not always so, so I do enjoy nonfiction comic, but I think there's a challenge, especially I guess as a, as a person who produces them.
00:22:13.383 --> 00:22:16.742
I, I'm a very acutely aware of the challenges when I read them
00:22:16.869 --> 00:22:24.279
So you find you're reading them with a critical eye or like a, with, with the, the informed eye of like, wow, this would've been a nightmare to make this page.
00:22:24.585 --> 00:22:29.019
The, the nonfiction comics, mafia are gonna come and get me for saying that.
00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:33.880
But I think, but at the same time, I mean, obviously it's also really accessible.
00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:37.480
I think it's, it's dependent on the subject matter and how it's, how it's tackled.
00:22:37.829 --> 00:22:44.371
I mean with Filmish and Gamish as well, there's probably like 20 to 30 pages of end notes of all the things I couldn't fit in.
00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:51.000
And I think that's like, I think it in a sense speaks to that tension of like all the things you have to miss out.
00:22:51.451 --> 00:22:51.990
Mm.
00:22:52.651 --> 00:22:58.988
But do you think with both of those, the fact that the thing that you are talking about is also a kind of multimodal medium?
00:22:59.011 --> 00:22:59.971
Was helpful?
00:23:00.021 --> 00:23:00.862
Yeah, no, I agree.
00:23:00.922 --> 00:23:06.622
Especially once I got into working on the book and when people started asking difficult questions like, why are you doing a comic about film?
00:23:07.491 --> 00:23:08.999
Why are you not doing a YouTube essay?
00:23:09.010 --> 00:23:22.159
yeah, you're translating the visuals of film into another art form, but by doing that, you've got an opportunity to step backwards so we can sort of allow for a more analytical eye and also kind of essentialize.
00:23:22.338 --> 00:23:40.419
So that's the kinda two things you're doing when you're, when I'm drawing these panels, is that it's allowing you to, to, to take that step back and, and more analytical and frame it in,, in a new way and I think that when it comes to nonfiction comics in general, that's the opportunity, isn't it?
00:23:40.479 --> 00:23:43.328
It's that you've got an opportunity to do something with the pictures.
00:23:43.328 --> 00:23:56.108
So when done right, it's really amazing because you're able to pull on the power of, of the imagery and pull and the power of the words at the same time, which is something that up that up just a textbook would never be able to do.
00:23:58.756 --> 00:24:04.507
I'm, I'm hesitant to ask this question'cause it's slightly off track, but, and also, so apologies to listeners who are thinking, what is she on about?
00:24:04.807 --> 00:24:14.836
But I'm really interested also in this sort of link between comics and film I've heard it quite a few times, people describing particular sequence in, in a comic as being filmic.
00:24:15.192 --> 00:24:25.592
And I was like, well, comics came first and, and actually a lot of films actually start off as storyboards, which are comic like.
00:24:26.416 --> 00:24:38.692
And so I feel like there's actually between the two mediums, a really interrelated language that goes both ways that comics inform the way that films are made and vice versa.
00:24:38.873 --> 00:24:39.982
What do you think about that?
00:24:40.553 --> 00:24:41.992
This is what I spend my time thinking about.
00:24:43.732 --> 00:24:45.053
Um, yes.
00:24:45.952 --> 00:24:48.266
Um, yeah, I, I, I agree.
00:24:48.266 --> 00:25:05.613
I think, it's really interesting, again, kinda going back to when I present in schools and I sort of, one of the things I like to say is about how comics are essentially the extension of the oldest recorded form of communication in that like, the first recorded form of communication is like cave paintings,
00:25:05.942 --> 00:25:06.212
Yeah.
00:25:06.633 --> 00:25:09.512
I guess maybe some carvings and some little sculptures and things.
00:25:09.512 --> 00:25:14.553
I'm not sure of the precise timeline, but it's one of the very variable fundamental ways that humans have communicated.
00:25:14.625 --> 00:25:20.476
and, and we kind of, I guess because humans like categorize, we're always kinda separating things out, aren't we?
00:25:20.476 --> 00:25:22.006
And we're like, well, this is this and this is that.
00:25:22.455 --> 00:25:31.486
But like, it's all part of this big long evolution, isn't it, of the cave painting through, which then kind of split into written language and continue to visual art.
00:25:32.026 --> 00:25:33.915
And then visual art eventually evolved into.
00:25:34.770 --> 00:25:36.030
Almost like lifelike paintings.
00:25:36.030 --> 00:25:42.030
And then this sort of, uh, desire to sort of capture chemically capture imagery through photography.
00:25:42.030 --> 00:25:50.003
And then that obviously very naturally led to taking multiple photos of very close, timing to produce the illusion of motion through film.
00:25:50.003 --> 00:25:52.284
So it's all kind of like really interlinked.
00:25:52.523 --> 00:25:57.443
It's kind of no surprise that the language is really interlinked as well.
00:25:57.483 --> 00:26:19.217
And I like that what you're saying, that, uh, comics came first and um, and yeah, they, I be, I'm interested actually'cause I think it's a very specific time historically, and if you look at kind of comics or kind of proto, they wouldn't even be proto comics, but like this before the kind of those elements had really kind of coalesced around the panel and that kind of se sequentially.
00:26:20.596 --> 00:26:26.176
I do wonder, what if you kind of took a, a comic, I've never looked specifically at a comic.
00:26:26.836 --> 00:26:36.916
Or that kind of image from 1895 and then the very first captured motion and like what similarities,
00:26:36.932 --> 00:26:37.352
Yeah.
00:26:37.682 --> 00:26:46.412
Like at what point did things like, like closeups and particular different shot types, at what point did they start to come into comic language?
00:26:46.711 --> 00:26:47.971
Because you, in the ones that.
00:26:48.527 --> 00:26:56.987
I can think of that I've seen in very early comics, it is quite, you don't, you're not seeing the same sort of suite of techniques as are in the visual storytelling now.
00:26:57.557 --> 00:26:58.757
So I'm interested Yeah.
00:26:58.757 --> 00:27:01.547
I wonder where they intersect.
00:27:03.974 --> 00:27:05.092
You mentioned game ish.
00:27:05.191 --> 00:27:09.200
I, I really enjoyed that, book and I'm finding out about something that I didn't really know about.
00:27:09.740 --> 00:27:13.819
I'm not, although I, I did get a game, I did get a computer game for Christmas.
00:27:13.970 --> 00:27:15.049
Um,
00:27:15.194 --> 00:27:15.394
you get?
00:27:15.631 --> 00:27:16.351
stray.
00:27:16.530 --> 00:27:17.010
You know, you're a
00:27:17.165 --> 00:27:17.445
cool.
00:27:17.476 --> 00:27:17.766
Yeah.
00:27:18.090 --> 00:27:18.810
is really good.
00:27:19.441 --> 00:27:21.240
I'm the, I'm, I'm really into it.
00:27:21.661 --> 00:27:26.310
Um, occasionally I have to get someone else to come and do the really, the bits where there's lots of things chasing me.
00:27:27.330 --> 00:27:28.441
I'm not that good at doing it.
00:27:28.780 --> 00:27:30.161
I'm definitely in a house of gamers here.
00:27:30.201 --> 00:27:39.142
but, um, in terms of when you're selecting your projects, and I know, so obviously you've had an preexisting interest in film and a really good knowledge base.
00:27:39.291 --> 00:27:41.781
but you've gone on from that, your kind of starting point.
00:27:41.842 --> 00:27:44.692
Did you have to do a lot of research to create your books?
00:27:44.751 --> 00:27:54.951
Is it that an a topic that you're already interested in and then you kind of do a lot of research or how, how does that kind of journey come to being as informed as you need to be to actually make the the book?
00:27:55.311 --> 00:27:55.701
Yeah.
00:27:55.731 --> 00:28:10.955
So yeah, I mean, film ish was coming from obviously a place where I had a fairly good established understanding of the broad scope of film theory and some things I could touch on, and it really informed then the kinda chapter breakdown of that.
00:28:11.076 --> 00:28:16.340
'cause it in film ish, it's not like a chronological history of film, it's like a thematic, journey.
00:28:16.340 --> 00:28:19.221
It is called a film journey, you know, graphic journey through film.
00:28:19.221 --> 00:28:24.770
So it's a journey because it's like we start with the eye, we move onto to the body, and then it's like, I.
00:28:25.326 --> 00:28:33.155
Set, you know, set design and architecture and I can't remember what chapters you time and power and, you know, all these and technology.
00:28:33.155 --> 00:28:39.516
There's all these different themes that then I kind of crafted into something of a narrative.
00:28:39.516 --> 00:28:42.606
Ultimately there's something of a kind of logical structure to it.
00:28:42.606 --> 00:28:47.800
but within each of those chapters, you're jumping around through time and you're making all these different juxtapositions.
00:28:48.131 --> 00:28:55.500
Um, so I had kinda a lot of that though'cause I had a fairly deep well of film knowledge, fairly deep well of like, understanding of the different facets of film theory.
00:28:55.740 --> 00:29:08.518
So it was kind of a lot easier to get started and then to know roughly where to go to then track down the rest, with games, I mean, I didn't even get like a console until I was like in my twenties.
00:29:08.785 --> 00:29:14.845
I had friends who had consoles or, or PCs that could play video games, uh, as, as a kid and as a teenager.
00:29:14.845 --> 00:29:16.555
I wasn't like a big, big gamer.
00:29:16.555 --> 00:29:24.443
I was always like wanting to get invited right to friends' houses so that I could go and play their video games, or watch them play their video games.
00:29:24.911 --> 00:29:26.036
so it's a very different thing.
00:29:26.185 --> 00:29:53.336
And, and so there was definitely a challenge, not just in like my lack of that kind of deep lore of like, of having grown up, having played all the final fantasies and all the Marios and all the Zeldas, which whenever I listen to like video game podcasters, they know all that, you know, they already, they've got that deep well, so I didn't have that deep well, which obviously created like huge imposter syndrome going into it.
00:29:53.336 --> 00:29:59.535
But at the same time, it was just something I had to kind of embrace and, and understand that I was coming at it from a different.
00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:00.779
Different angle.
00:30:01.049 --> 00:30:02.519
Um, but it was, it was much more challenging.
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:12.240
I think one of the things that's challenging, and it's really interesting, I mean there's many factors again, but like, I feel like game ish never really took off in the same way that film ish did.
00:30:12.255 --> 00:30:23.884
and I think part of the challenge, and I, I tried my best, but part of the challenge that I'm now aware of sort of five years since, it came out, is games just don't really have a, a stable canon yet.
00:30:23.914 --> 00:30:27.595
So whereas film, we have, more than a hundred years of film history.
00:30:27.744 --> 00:30:39.826
I mean, even if you go back a hundred years, you've almost already got like sound centers almost already coalesced into something, a language, so you've got this huge deep canon from across the globe.
00:30:40.247 --> 00:30:42.047
And not only that is.
00:30:43.217 --> 00:30:48.257
A huge amount of it's available and it's available on modern formats essentially.
00:30:49.126 --> 00:30:55.875
Whereas with video games, you've got a much shallower history of about, what, 60 years.
00:30:55.963 --> 00:31:00.584
but even then there is no, there is no chance of playing.
00:31:00.848 --> 00:31:09.403
You, you know, you can watch, you can, you can literally watch the first, you know, like the train coming into the station on YouTube, you know, that has been preserved.
00:31:09.993 --> 00:31:12.513
But like the earliest game experiments, there's just zero.
00:31:12.604 --> 00:31:13.983
There's no chance you couldn't play it.
00:31:13.983 --> 00:31:16.996
And even if you could play it, it would be like a, a recreation.
00:31:17.066 --> 00:31:20.665
and then from there, just going forward, it's like some of the stuff survived.
00:31:20.773 --> 00:31:24.344
And some of the stuff's been updated to be available, but so much of it hasn't.
00:31:24.673 --> 00:31:38.973
So there's just this really complex thing where it's like, it is, I guess it speaks to the fact that video games are art and technology and as we all know, if you ever picked up like an old, an iPhone it would like look alien to you, you and me even sure.
00:31:38.973 --> 00:31:42.423
How to use it to a certain extent, it would feel so old.
00:31:42.784 --> 00:31:45.153
And that's something that, that video games suffer from.
00:31:45.153 --> 00:31:49.054
Whereas if you, if you looked at a film from 10 years ago, you'd be like, that's so neat.
00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:51.681
you can go back 40 years.
00:31:51.681 --> 00:31:55.580
I mean, we're still celebrating films from 40 or 50 years ago as feeling kind of
00:31:55.820 --> 00:31:57.230
Jurassic Park still looks good.
00:31:57.651 --> 00:31:58.461
I'm just gonna say it.
00:31:58.461 --> 00:31:58.730
It looks
00:31:58.760 --> 00:31:59.060
Yeah.
00:31:59.330 --> 00:32:01.296
I mean if you ask a teenager, they might not say that, but.
00:32:06.558 --> 00:32:18.413
I'm really interested in, from a educational perspective, the way that comics can be built in the cross curriculum, and not just about the English curriculum or the art curriculum, but how they can be implemented in other areas of the curriculum.
00:32:18.413 --> 00:32:21.721
So I'd love to hear more about, the work that you've done in that area.
00:32:21.734 --> 00:32:22.605
in science.
00:32:22.655 --> 00:32:32.241
Yeah, so, at high school as I was an aspiring filmmaker, I was, you know, I wrote my friends in and we'd go into the woods and like run around making films and stuff.
00:32:33.011 --> 00:32:38.307
but we kinda continued to, to, you know, we'd make like little short films and we would, do drawings together and stuff like that.
00:32:38.547 --> 00:32:39.926
And he went off to.
00:32:40.511 --> 00:32:42.041
You need to study science.
00:32:42.041 --> 00:32:44.862
And I went off to, you need to study the arts to study film.
00:32:45.192 --> 00:32:55.051
And then, he was doing his PhD in Glasgow and he found that there was like this little pot of money for public engagement in his department.
00:32:55.531 --> 00:32:59.251
And so he came with the idea that we could do a little collaboration together.
00:32:59.372 --> 00:33:03.602
And the idea was that we co-write a comic, a short comic, and I would draw it.
00:33:04.021 --> 00:33:11.511
And then he, while I was busy drawing this comic, so this is, he was studying parasitology, he was studying, the parasite that causes sleeping sickness.
00:33:11.902 --> 00:33:16.342
So we did a short comic about these different parasites that the lab was working on.
00:33:16.926 --> 00:33:34.957
And he at, while I was drawing, spent his evenings sewing together a probably like three or four meter long giant parasite out of hula hoops and shiny material that we then took to the Glasgow.
00:33:35.017 --> 00:33:38.227
There's like a sort of mea festival in Kelton Grove Park.
00:33:38.497 --> 00:33:41.856
And so we took this almost like, you know, like a Chinese dragon on sticks.
00:33:41.916 --> 00:33:47.497
The scientists were sort of dancing through the park amongst all these other, other floats.
00:33:47.557 --> 00:33:50.257
And then we were handing out comics to people as as we went.
00:33:50.747 --> 00:34:02.807
So that sort of started our collaborative journey and that really, I, at that time, I certainly wasn't aware of it, but there, I don't think there was much in the way of like public engagement, science comics out there.
00:34:02.807 --> 00:34:07.696
And we were kind of, we were certainly making it'cause we went along and hadn't seen any other stuff.
00:34:08.746 --> 00:34:19.766
and it was really popular amongst the, the labs, the people were like, this is a really good way to create a very accessible, succinct sort of, uh, encapsulation of the work we do.
00:34:19.777 --> 00:34:29.481
And so over the course of, about 15 years now, we've been working together sort of on and off on these different projects together.
00:34:29.481 --> 00:34:32.780
And then I've sometimes done some on my own with other labs.
00:34:33.320 --> 00:34:36.380
We basically did one for every single parasite that this lab studies.
00:34:37.570 --> 00:34:49.617
I've done one on, microfossils at the bottom of the ocean that they take core samples from the bottom of the ocean using this like huge long, this ship of fires in this huge long drill.
00:34:50.038 --> 00:34:55.577
And it pulls out core samples, and then they can analyze that to find out climate change over the course of millions of years.
00:34:55.626 --> 00:35:00.867
And it's just been like a really interesting, way to engage with all these different subject matters.
00:35:00.867 --> 00:35:08.097
And, um, and I, I think a really good way for labs to be able to reach out, have something like really tangible.
00:35:08.128 --> 00:35:10.288
You know, we, we, we, most of the projects we print a little.
00:35:10.873 --> 00:35:16.543
You know, little comics that they can then hand out at science festivals and go to schools and things like that.
00:35:16.963 --> 00:35:18.713
Um, and then they have them online as well,
00:35:18.768 --> 00:35:19.248
I think it could be.
00:35:19.248 --> 00:35:28.179
So you, you could, I could just see this being used so much in school, like children making their own comics to, explain content that they learn out in all sorts of different subjects.
00:35:28.179 --> 00:35:29.139
I think it'd be really good.
00:35:29.202 --> 00:35:33.762
there's a school that, that I go and teach the kids how to make their own science comics.
00:35:33.762 --> 00:35:41.442
You know, give them the kind of lowdown how to think about it and, um, the tools, you know, as a comic artist, the kind of things they can, they can do.
00:35:41.742 --> 00:35:45.371
And then every year they'll take the science that they're learning.
00:35:45.592 --> 00:35:50.242
And then they produce a, their own piece of public engagement essentially.
00:35:50.242 --> 00:35:53.842
And then I get to look at them all and kind of feed back to the, the kids about the work they've done.
00:35:54.172 --> 00:36:01.612
So it's really amazing because I think it's like a, you're right, it's like a really powerful way, I think, to use comics in the classroom.
00:36:01.641 --> 00:36:08.052
I think there is such an untapped potential because through making a comic, you're having to like think about what you've learned.
00:36:08.052 --> 00:36:14.121
You're having to sort of synthesize it and, essentially boil it down and work it out because you have to break it down to all these panels.
00:36:14.121 --> 00:36:16.251
So there's such a lot of learning that's done.
00:36:16.251 --> 00:36:28.516
I mean, for me, it's like, that's precisely what I do is when I make a science comic, when um, lab reaches out to me, you know, we sit down and I normally pair out with a scientist and I sit down and we work out maybe the structure, the types of things we wanna talk about.
00:36:28.516 --> 00:36:30.257
And then I just get'em to explain it to me.
00:36:30.617 --> 00:36:34.157
And if I don't understand a bit, I ask them to explain that and dig.
00:36:34.157 --> 00:36:35.027
I really dig into it.
00:36:35.027 --> 00:36:43.097
And so all that stuff never makes it into the comic, but by me understanding it, I know I can then translate it to something that other people can understand as
00:36:43.157 --> 00:36:43.666
yeah.
00:36:43.666 --> 00:36:47.626
In order to simplify something, well, you have to understand the complicated version of it, don't you?
00:36:47.717 --> 00:36:48.856
That's the thing.
00:36:48.976 --> 00:36:49.336
Yeah.
00:36:49.556 --> 00:36:54.817
I think you are in this, annoying and troubling time of AI I think schools are.
00:36:54.867 --> 00:37:01.166
Really dicing with, with potential trouble there when, when, with kind of any kind of use of AI in a sense.
00:37:01.166 --> 00:37:06.027
You're relying on someone else to do the work for you, you're never gonna learn it.
00:37:06.327 --> 00:37:11.396
You're only gonna just accept the regurgitate, which is exactly what AI does, it regurgitates and not even accurately.
00:37:11.907 --> 00:37:19.467
So get the kids to regurgitate, get the students to regurgitate for you.
00:37:20.007 --> 00:37:22.197
Um, because not, not literally.
00:37:22.556 --> 00:37:26.483
Um, because that's the, I think that that's the learning, right?
00:37:26.487 --> 00:37:32.032
The, the learning is the taking is the coming to understand it and then working out how you can communicate it.
00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:35.525
Your most recent book.
00:37:36.331 --> 00:37:37.411
Graphic novel builder.
00:37:37.550 --> 00:37:40.581
let's come onto that now'cause it's a really brilliant thing.
00:37:40.581 --> 00:37:41.097
I love it.
00:37:41.097 --> 00:37:46.300
Can you tell listeners about the book, how the project came about to do a little bit of an intro for somebody who might not have seen it yet?
00:37:46.856 --> 00:37:53.255
Yeah, so A graphic novel builder is, the Illustrated Guide to Making Your Own Comics is the subtitle.
00:37:53.286 --> 00:37:56.775
And it's, a book that was commissioned essentially by Collins.
00:37:56.775 --> 00:38:00.016
So they got in touch with me interested in making a book for that audience.
00:38:00.016 --> 00:38:05.655
So they felt there was an underserved kind of, I guess that kind of 11 plus.
00:38:05.655 --> 00:38:13.307
They said, you know, the, the young teenage an onwards age group,'cause there's lots of books for, younger kids about making your own comics and there's lots of books.
00:38:13.637 --> 00:38:16.458
You know, there's like Scott McLeod's making comics and
00:38:16.472 --> 00:38:17.193
Maybe a bit older.
00:38:17.193 --> 00:38:17.643
Yeah.
00:38:17.717 --> 00:38:20.166
of quite good stuff for, adults, essentially.
00:38:20.166 --> 00:38:24.146
Although I absolutely appreciate that teenagers can, can read those and get looked out of them.
00:38:24.146 --> 00:38:37.039
but there wasn't, they felt, there wasn't something in the market that, that just captured that kind of budding teenage, like wanting to be creative and wanting to make comics space that was like trying to make something accessible in that sense.
00:38:37.139 --> 00:38:48.358
And so they got in touch with me and I was, I was like, again, you know, as I said before, uh, I'm obviously a, I guess like a lot of artists, uh, get a lot of imposter syndrome.
00:38:48.358 --> 00:38:52.168
And I think the imposter syndrome for that was extremely intense.
00:38:52.168 --> 00:38:56.728
The idea that, you know, who, who am I to tell anyone how to make comics?
00:38:56.789 --> 00:38:57.659
I don't know what I'm doing.
00:38:58.108 --> 00:38:58.858
What am I doing?
00:38:59.369 --> 00:39:04.554
Um, so I had to, I, I really had to think about it what have I got to offer?
00:39:04.664 --> 00:39:15.735
so what I kinda tried to tap into with it, um, and what you see in the book is that I, I thought, well, you know, in my previous books, it's been me, you know, a, a bearded adult man,
00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:18.239
Yeah.
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.070
appearing as a character
00:39:20.396 --> 00:39:21.016
and like that.
00:39:21.077 --> 00:39:27.277
I was just like, that cannot be, I obviously can't do that mean also because and I take that, you know, I very much a compliment.
00:39:27.277 --> 00:39:31.597
People compare like, you know, film ish and gamish to like Scott McLeod, you know, Scott McLeod for film or whatever.
00:39:31.702 --> 00:39:35.902
But where if you put the genre and the all, like the subject matter and that technique together,
00:39:35.947 --> 00:39:43.927
I just returning back to source, but also just like, also like, I think fundamentally like what I sort of, you know, while I was trying to find like, what's my voice here?
00:39:43.927 --> 00:39:45.126
What am I trying to achieve?
00:39:45.126 --> 00:39:45.666
And I was like.
00:39:46.327 --> 00:39:54.487
Going back to thinking about, you know, me as a teenager making films in the woods with my friends and doing all these great projects with my, you know, friend I still get to work with.
00:39:54.487 --> 00:40:00.079
I'm really, you know, so great that I get to work with my, you know, one of my best friends from high school to this day.
00:40:00.128 --> 00:40:06.659
But I very acutely remember that feeling of being a teenager and being creative and what that's like.
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:16.516
And also when I go into schools as well, it's just so delightful to meet young people creative and who have this like, burning desire to make things.
00:40:16.516 --> 00:40:17.447
It's so amazing.
00:40:18.016 --> 00:40:23.503
So I was like, I've gotta capture that because that's like really speaks to such a specific experience of being a creative kid.
00:40:23.503 --> 00:40:29.793
so what I decided to do was to, to essentially create this little cast of, Teenagers who are the comic makers.
00:40:29.793 --> 00:40:31.773
So they're the, they're your guides through the book.
00:40:31.873 --> 00:40:32.682
There's five kids.
00:40:32.682 --> 00:40:35.563
Each one's a representative of a different element of making comics.
00:40:35.563 --> 00:40:43.797
So there's, there's the, you know, the pub, the sort of publisher one who's like, likes to man the comic stall and, and do the marketing and things.
00:40:43.797 --> 00:40:48.731
And then there's the writer and inker, the artist, you know, and the colorist.
00:40:48.972 --> 00:40:57.813
And then there's the designer, kid who's kind of into making like weird little zines and like hiding in people's shoes and things, you know, that kinda slightly anarchic, creativity.
00:40:57.813 --> 00:41:03.958
that was really when I realized like, oh no, this is something that I'd really like to do and that I, that I feel like I'm able to do.
00:41:03.983 --> 00:41:05.574
and I do obviously have a lot of knowledge.
00:41:05.574 --> 00:41:17.690
I mean, I have been working in comics for 15 years, but it was very easy to, to, when you look at everyone else's work, to convince yourself that you've got nothing to say because everyone else seems so much more capable and,
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:18.170
Yeah.
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:24.561
But the reality of the situations that everyone else is also sitting there feeling, feeling like their own levels of self-doubt and things, aren't they?
00:41:24.710 --> 00:41:29.934
so, in the end, it was really fun after I got over myself, it was a really fun, fun one to.
00:41:30.489 --> 00:41:33.849
To be offered to do and then to take kind of ownership of as well.
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:39.130
And part of that was, I think their original vision for it was actually, it was gonna be maybe a bit more like a workbook.
00:41:39.579 --> 00:42:00.342
So it was going to be, you know, maybe like you could fill things in or And in all my wisdom when, you know, they also said, oh, we, you know, we need this by, or we'd really like this by May next year, and all my wisdom, I was like, yes, I will do it, but only if I get to make it all comics and have to draw it all
00:42:00.858 --> 00:42:01.148
Yeah.
00:42:01.782 --> 00:42:12.072
and make it full color and turn it into like a graphic novel level piece of work rather than a workbook that's like, I do a bit writing and then someone does the graphic design at the other end.
00:42:12.097 --> 00:42:21.985
so I kinda made a rod from my own back by turning into a bigger project, but I was really inspired to do that, and I felt of all these different ways that I could use comics to take the reader on a journey through how
00:42:22.030 --> 00:42:22.570
Mm.
00:42:22.726 --> 00:42:23.927
I think it works so well.
00:42:23.927 --> 00:42:24.436
It's great.
00:42:24.467 --> 00:42:25.007
I loved it.
00:42:25.068 --> 00:42:31.221
and I definitely recommend anyone listening, I think you could even, it could definitely sneak into the top end of primary as well, I think.
00:42:31.335 --> 00:42:38.235
the last two years of primary school and then also the, the number of adults, even a few like professional, like, you know, artists who have been like, oh, I found that really useful.
00:42:38.235 --> 00:42:39.106
I'm like, don't,
00:42:39.331 --> 00:42:39.990
That's great.
00:42:40.141 --> 00:42:41.221
But that's what I wanted to ask you.
00:42:41.221 --> 00:42:55.150
Like, did you also find out new stuff that you, because they've, like, it's such, comics are such a broad spectrum, like there have to be things that only maybe only apply in particular genre or there parts of the process that you unlocked as well through, through the process of
00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:55.751
Yeah.
00:42:56.170 --> 00:43:03.110
And in, in a lot of ways, like, because my previous two books and most of the projects I've done previously have been, mostly not narrative.
00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:07.130
And I'm really interested in moving towards doing more narrative work.
00:43:07.130 --> 00:43:20.512
And I have been doing a bit more, some of the science comics we've done in the last few years have been, we've done the series, called Luna and Simon, and that's been, we've basically been given, creative license essentially because, my friend Jamie is now high up enough in his career that he's running his own lab.
00:43:20.512 --> 00:43:22.762
So, so we are now working together as we want.
00:43:23.422 --> 00:43:24.621
So we've got a bit of creative license.
00:43:24.621 --> 00:43:33.494
So we went for like a real, kinda, it's a bit of like a Calvin Hobbes homage, this, little girl and her big brother, and they go on these like, adventures in science together.
00:43:34.485 --> 00:43:36.974
So I've been working slowly towards being much more of a narrative.
00:43:37.349 --> 00:43:40.019
Storytellers through comics and I really enjoyed that as well.
00:43:40.059 --> 00:43:45.679
I think the reason that I, for so many years, shied away from it was'cause I never felt confident in drawing the same thing twice.
00:43:45.978 --> 00:43:50.168
So, film ish was perfect for me because although I, I, the only thing I'd have to draw twice would be myself.
00:43:50.168 --> 00:43:57.197
but basically the, the credit I can give myself is realizing the hack for drawing things more than once.
00:43:57.228 --> 00:43:58.248
'cause I work digitally.
00:43:58.248 --> 00:44:03.240
I just draw a character sheet for that character, like a turnaround showing all different angles on them.
00:44:03.240 --> 00:44:10.831
And then I use that as a basis for the next drawing, which I didn't realize until like three years ago that I could do that.
00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:15.148
And it feels like a cheat, you know, so many people are so amazing at drawing stuff from scratch each time.
00:44:15.148 --> 00:44:18.679
but I save so much time by at least having that basis that I can put in there.
00:44:18.697 --> 00:44:28.952
as a rough in the background, I can then use as the basis And then the other element that I feel like I really learned and was forced to learn was coloring because I've never been a confident colorist.
00:44:28.952 --> 00:44:31.621
I still not really a confident colorist, I'm guessing there.
00:44:32.132 --> 00:44:40.827
And that was a lot of it was to do with, having to work out how to teach the reader the basics of coloring, which I think, I never went to art school.
00:44:41.427 --> 00:44:42.538
I never really learned.
00:44:43.438 --> 00:44:52.530
And when I picked stuff up, I often end up creating very, like, muddy colors or because of the nature color theory where like one color next to another color changes your perception.
00:44:52.891 --> 00:44:57.610
You can put in a color going, oh, that's a vibrant color, and put in another color, and suddenly everything's really muddy.
00:44:57.612 --> 00:45:00.552
And I never realized what was going on essentially.
00:45:00.833 --> 00:45:13.682
So really working on the, the coloring sections has helped me a lot because although it's quite, stripped back and, and simplified information about coloring, I think it should, it helps me just to be able to refer to, you know, a few simple points.
00:45:13.682 --> 00:45:15.722
And your coloring confidence can really grow.
00:45:15.773 --> 00:45:16.128
Yeah.
00:45:16.128 --> 00:45:18.153
I think it's, there's so much in there.
00:45:18.153 --> 00:45:21.664
I just think it's something that people can go back and keep dipping in as well.
00:45:21.673 --> 00:45:33.284
You can access the information and, and have a go and then you can come back and like right now, this time I'm gonna, I want to really make sure I get my color in right or get my character silhouette right or whatever and keep going and dipping back into the information.
00:45:33.284 --> 00:45:35.653
I think it's great, really good resource.
00:45:36.014 --> 00:45:50.822
So at the end of the episode, to pick out a few kind of highlights or messages or something from your expertise or your experience going into schools that teachers, educators, listening, librarians might be able to put into practice, in their own settings.
00:45:51.163 --> 00:45:56.233
Anything that you would like to kind of summarize or emphasize at the end of the episode.
00:45:56.362 --> 00:45:56.652
Yeah.
00:45:56.733 --> 00:46:01.494
I my big takeaway I felt from our discussion and, and when I was thinking about it beforehand, was.
00:46:02.269 --> 00:46:07.159
I'd love to see, I would definitely love to see more comics use in the other, the other parts of the curriculum.
00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:08.630
I think that's really powerful.
00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.715
I mean, we talk about science, I've done the science stuff.
00:46:10.715 --> 00:46:17.795
but you know, I think there's so much scope in like history and sociology, you know, sociological type subjects and, and you literally everything.
00:46:17.795 --> 00:46:18.275
Right?
00:46:18.606 --> 00:46:27.224
Um, I always talk to young people when I go to schools about, when you're creating something, create something that you're passionate about as like the very fundamental element.
00:46:28.065 --> 00:46:36.344
And I think the good thing about comics in a sense is that, you know, a lot, a lot of young people will struggle with certain subject matters.
00:46:36.405 --> 00:46:40.905
You know, the subjects in school, like they might struggle, they might not enjoy X or YI.
00:46:41.684 --> 00:46:42.704
Subject at school.
00:46:42.945 --> 00:46:54.494
So by bringing in something like comics, which they might have a passion for, or that brings quite a lot of fun because even if you're not a passionate about comics, there's like a, there's a certain anarchy and like fun to getting to do something like a comic.
00:46:54.704 --> 00:47:11.934
So I think it's a really good way to engage anyone, but engage students with a new way of looking at a subject that they might not be enjoying as much So there's a way to bring something in and from a teacher's perspective, hopefully like lightening up the curriculum a bit and, and, and adding a, a, a twist on things for them, but also from teacher's perspective.
00:47:12.505 --> 00:47:14.425
It's a really good way to see their learning.
00:47:14.664 --> 00:47:17.994
That's the thing is that you can see their learning through the thing that they produce.
00:47:18.144 --> 00:47:20.425
It's providing those opportunities as well, isn't it?
00:47:20.454 --> 00:47:21.954
So providing the option.
00:47:22.284 --> 00:47:36.025
So potentially, I mean, you know, I realize that teachers are really stretched and that they might not always have time to put this into action, but, you know, potentially having the option to make a comic as as, your response to an essay question or something.
00:47:36.445 --> 00:47:39.465
You don't need to draw, you can draw on those stick figures If you want.
00:47:39.494 --> 00:47:40.304
That's fine.
00:47:40.394 --> 00:47:47.144
They can be stick figures and you can do the closeup of the stick figure and the far way if if that's if that's gonna be a barrier for entry.
00:47:47.175 --> 00:47:49.425
'cause some, you know, some young people won't find.
00:47:49.889 --> 00:47:51.061
Confidence in their drawing.
00:47:51.061 --> 00:47:51.641
which is a shame.
00:47:51.641 --> 00:47:58.452
I feel like whenever I go into schools, there's certain, there's always one or two kids in a class who are like, can't draw.
00:47:58.452 --> 00:47:59.202
They can draw.
00:47:59.501 --> 00:48:04.092
But like there's, there's a kind of barrier where, where it's like they feel ashamed of like
00:48:04.436 --> 00:48:04.887
Yeah.
00:48:04.916 --> 00:48:14.070
It's, it's a thing, it's a bit for me, like people talk a lot about in education, about kind of confidence in maths and how that dwindles and, I think drawing is another one of those.
00:48:14.070 --> 00:48:23.748
Things, you know, young children aren't embarrassed about what, whether their drawing looks like something or not, they're really free and just making marks and will tell you what it is.
00:48:23.748 --> 00:48:28.157
And it's you that's daft If you dunno, it's not, it's not their drawing that's wrong.
00:48:28.588 --> 00:48:39.512
but then there, there's some sort of level of self-conscious that comes and, and I think part of that is also married to the fact that we, wean children off of drawing and writing at the same time.
00:48:39.536 --> 00:48:46.246
And it's start saying that writing is kind of the more important form and then drawing starts to not exist as a communication tool.
00:48:46.246 --> 00:48:52.891
It's a thing that just should look like some, an aesthetic thing, not a communication tool, in a school setting.
00:48:52.998 --> 00:48:53.387
Yeah.
00:48:53.387 --> 00:48:54.438
No, that's a really good point.
00:48:54.827 --> 00:48:55.157
Yeah.
00:48:55.188 --> 00:49:01.668
Making and that's, that is maybe where comics can come in really useful is because you can say it is about communication.
00:49:01.668 --> 00:49:05.414
You're using images to communicate, and it doesn't need to be super realistic or anything.
00:49:05.414 --> 00:49:06.914
It's just about communicating.
00:49:06.914 --> 00:49:13.554
And then also, I guess you can say like, think of it as like the plan, the planned version that you then present to the professional artists or whatever.
00:49:13.554 --> 00:49:17.844
You can, you can call it like the rough draft, but make sure it contains all the information we need.
00:49:18.309 --> 00:49:18.730
Yeah.
00:49:18.730 --> 00:49:20.349
And that's a good way of thinking of it.
00:49:22.936 --> 00:49:23.416
Brilliant.
00:49:23.416 --> 00:49:26.085
So finally, this one stumps people quite often.
00:49:26.114 --> 00:49:33.583
But if we were to add one comic or book brackets about comics To our too be read piles tomorrow, what would you recommend that we read?
00:49:33.856 --> 00:49:41.496
So I was going to recommend I Shall Never Fall In Love by Harry Connor, which is, a book that shares a book birthday with me.
00:49:41.797 --> 00:49:47.510
And not only that, but I got, I met Harry at the Bookshop when they were going to sign their books.
00:49:47.510 --> 00:49:50.840
We kind both came to the shop at the same time and I was like, happy book.
00:49:50.900 --> 00:49:52.760
Happy Book birthday.
00:49:53.090 --> 00:50:01.940
Um, so it's a, it's a queer regency era romance, so it's like a kind of like a, a kind of queer Austen kinda story.
00:50:02.045 --> 00:50:04.536
sorry, you know, almost like Austen meets Alice Oseman.
00:50:04.596 --> 00:50:06.987
Um, and it's really fantastic.
00:50:07.003 --> 00:50:16.842
and also what's really fantastic is they're speaking to what we were talking about earlier is that the back of the book has all these, all these notes about how they research the book.
00:50:16.842 --> 00:50:19.552
So because it features like a trans character and.
00:50:20.523 --> 00:50:21.842
A black character as well.
00:50:21.842 --> 00:50:25.833
It talks, it, it dispels myths about the non-existence.
00:50:25.893 --> 00:50:32.043
You know, there's all these myths about the, the past was like straight and white essentially, but actually obviously all sorts of people have always existed.
00:50:32.043 --> 00:50:34.893
So, so it's, it, it is actually sort of the back.
00:50:34.893 --> 00:50:42.842
It says like, it goes through the research that was done and then all also amazing research about like, locations and clothing and hairstyles.
00:50:43.083 --> 00:50:54.596
So all speaking again as well to the, to the, to historiography and comics and So not only is it like a sweet romance, you know, for, for a sort of ya audience and, and adults.
00:50:54.608 --> 00:50:58.976
It's also, like really, really real well researched and shows that research in the back.
00:50:58.976 --> 00:51:01.527
So for the history nerd, you can go to the back and get all that.
00:51:01.527 --> 00:51:08.085
I, I mean, I, I put that in film as well, but I love that, you know, I love going to the back and like getting the kinda behind the scenes.
00:51:08.106 --> 00:51:09.157
Um, so that's great.
00:51:09.157 --> 00:51:09.847
Added value.
00:51:10.161 --> 00:51:11.092
that sounds, great.
00:51:11.121 --> 00:51:12.891
My daughter would definitely love that.
00:51:12.900 --> 00:51:15.210
so I'll be trying to get hold of a copy of that for her.
00:51:15.210 --> 00:51:17.760
She'll really enjoy it and I'm sure I'll read it to you when it comes.
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:21.750
That's my, that's my secret comic buying route that
00:51:21.764 --> 00:51:22.230
Oh, nice.
00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:28.980
there's only so many I can buy for myself and then I start buying them for my children, the ones that I wanna read.
00:51:29.369 --> 00:51:30.900
Um,'cause I don't appear to be generous.
00:51:30.916 --> 00:51:33.407
and supporting my children's reading, but, you know, that sounds amazing.
00:51:33.407 --> 00:51:33.947
Thank you so much.
00:51:33.947 --> 00:51:34.306
And thank you.
00:51:34.456 --> 00:51:37.516
I feel like that has been a, such a good conversation.
00:51:37.516 --> 00:51:40.737
I've really, really enjoyed it and I've loved, the level of.
00:51:40.766 --> 00:51:42.242
Geekery that we could get to.
00:51:44.601 --> 00:51:48.561
So thank you for being my match on that.
00:51:49.222 --> 00:51:50.340
I really appreciate it.
00:51:53.117 --> 00:51:53.657
There having it.
00:51:53.657 --> 00:51:57.467
Thanks so much to Edward for spending time with me to talk about all of the things that interest him.
00:51:57.467 --> 00:51:58.367
I really loved it.
00:51:58.418 --> 00:52:02.588
It's been so great to get back into recording the podcast, back into conversations with people.
00:52:02.588 --> 00:52:04.088
I always find I learn something.
00:52:04.088 --> 00:52:12.342
There's never a conversation I have where I haven't been kind of nudged to think of things in a slightly different way or think of how things could be applied in a different way in the classroom.
00:52:12.458 --> 00:52:14.438
I find it really, really interesting.
00:52:14.438 --> 00:52:16.958
So thank you, Edward, for all of your great insights.
00:52:17.597 --> 00:52:19.458
Excellent recommendation there too.
00:52:19.487 --> 00:52:23.657
I'm gonna add my own recommendation, and I'm going to, I've been reading quite a lot of books recently.
00:52:23.657 --> 00:52:25.458
I've been doing some judging for some book awards.
00:52:25.708 --> 00:52:28.728
But one that I've straightaway been recommended it to other people.
00:52:28.878 --> 00:52:32.027
And I know that it's picked up some accolades recently as well.
00:52:32.027 --> 00:52:38.568
Winning the Ward Stone Children's Book awards Is Rune the Tale of A Thousand Faces by Carlos Sanchez.
00:52:38.568 --> 00:52:48.827
Published by Flying Eye and it's a beautiful fantasy, I would say from age eight plus, maybe with more interest the older.
00:52:49.467 --> 00:52:53.068
There's some, it's not necessarily about suitability, but just interest level.
00:52:53.068 --> 00:53:01.681
I think probably that nine, 10 years old plus, a really beautiful comic, gorgeous pastel tones, a portal adventure.
00:53:01.681 --> 00:53:04.260
These two children go into another realm.
00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:05.460
I love that kind of setup.
00:53:05.543 --> 00:53:07.253
And this has got something really unique about it.
00:53:07.253 --> 00:53:11.594
So the best friend's characters, Chiri and Dai Chiri, is deaf.
00:53:11.744 --> 00:53:20.204
And she, she uses sign language and you see the sign language being used in the comic panels and then there's kinda speech bubbles coming off from the sign language.
00:53:20.364 --> 00:53:21.653
it is really cool concept.
00:53:21.653 --> 00:53:28.284
And then that is also a key part without telling too much the use of sign language is also something that's really key.
00:53:28.514 --> 00:53:32.983
In this other realm that they go into a brilliant, magical adventure.
00:53:33.224 --> 00:53:38.023
And it is very, very beautiful and a great story and some really interesting concepts within it.
00:53:38.023 --> 00:53:45.757
So definitely want to look out for, I've been recommending that to people, over the last few weeks'cause it really, stayed with me after I read it, which is always a really good sign.
00:53:45.807 --> 00:53:48.268
Thanks again to a LCS for sponsoring today's episode.
00:53:48.268 --> 00:54:00.608
As you know, we often have writers and on comic boom like Edward, speaking about their work, and A LCS is a not-for-profit organization supporting it's 120,000 plus members to collect money for all of the secondary uses of their work.
00:54:00.608 --> 00:54:06.697
Things like photocopies, digital reproductions, even be the book being used in education and they.
00:54:06.992 --> 00:54:13.083
Also provide some really fantastic resources to support educators to explore topics like copyright and plagiarism in the classroom.
00:54:13.262 --> 00:54:18.123
And you can check those out on the links in the show notes on the ALCS website.
00:54:18.123 --> 00:54:31.159
They've got some excellent educational resources there, which I think, uh, is really important, especially in this age of AI that we think, um, really carefully about plagiarism and making sure that creative individuals are credited for their, for their own genius.
00:54:31.429 --> 00:54:33.108
Essentially and not just ripped off.
00:54:33.108 --> 00:54:44.018
I always get a little bit, I feel, a little bit sad when I see these, things like, you know, recently there's been a big trend of, producing images in the style of, studio Ghibli and I.
00:54:44.668 --> 00:54:46.378
And that's somebody else's genius.
00:54:46.378 --> 00:54:46.679
There.
00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:48.478
Don't, don't rip it off using, using ai.
00:54:48.909 --> 00:54:52.635
so there's lots of different resources available for teachers, on the A LCS website.
00:54:53.007 --> 00:54:56.606
and over the next few weeks I'll be highlighting a bit more of their work.
00:54:56.606 --> 00:55:00.567
You can also go back, they sponsored the last season of Comic Boom and there's interview on the end of.
00:55:00.927 --> 00:55:12.695
At the last three episodes, talking to Barbara, their CEO, about their work, and we talk about ai, and then the importance of putting some parameters, to ensure that people's work is protected, in the age of ai.
00:55:12.695 --> 00:55:14.556
So I found that a really interesting conversation.
00:55:14.556 --> 00:55:17.916
You can go back and listen to that and I'll put those links in the show notes too.
00:55:18.425 --> 00:55:26.768
But as, for me, since the last episode, quite rightly, there's been a real shift, um, away from certain social media platforms I'm still going to be promoting.
00:55:26.855 --> 00:55:28.235
The show on X.
00:55:28.324 --> 00:55:30.094
'cause I think that's where most people hear about it.
00:55:30.094 --> 00:55:38.628
But I am also going to be trying to bring in some new, social media platforms, into the mix as well to try and reach as many people as possible.
00:55:38.838 --> 00:55:41.657
So if you can share the, the podcast.
00:55:41.777 --> 00:55:42.827
We are on Instagram.
00:55:42.827 --> 00:55:43.637
We are on Twitter.
00:55:43.637 --> 00:55:44.838
We will be on Blue Sky.
00:55:44.838 --> 00:55:46.217
I will get that sorted.
00:55:46.219 --> 00:55:56.789
And do, let me know, drop me a message if there's a platform that you think will be really, really good for getting the word out there, reaching teachers, librarians, anyone interested in comics and education.
00:55:56.804 --> 00:55:58.454
Really love to have a bit of feedback on that.
00:55:58.485 --> 00:56:10.340
Because I'm wanting, to move away from quite toxic, social media, sites, but still obviously think that the work in of the podcast is really important and I want to help, it find its audience, in the best way possible.
00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:21.548
So yeah, do drop me a line if you've got any suggestions and as always, your recommendations, sharing with your colleagues, sharing with people that you know might be interested is always, really important, especially at the start of a new season.
00:56:21.548 --> 00:56:24.594
So if you can do a bit of liking and sharing, I would love you forever.
00:56:25.001 --> 00:56:26.532
That's it from me this week.
00:56:26.561 --> 00:56:31.351
We'll be back with another episode next week you've been listening to Comic Boom.
00:56:31.561 --> 00:56:34.141
With me, Lucy Starbuck Braley, the producer and host.
00:56:34.172 --> 00:56:34.981
Thanks for listening.
