speaker-0: Okay, so welcome to episode three of Collab and today I'm joined by a very special guest who needs no introduction because she is an absolute goat in the world of property management. Thank you. And that's Heidi Russell of Little Bird, which is a specialist property management only business based in Canberra. So welcome Heidi.
speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's really exciting to be here. I've never done a podcast before.
speaker-0: So Well, I'm glad I can be the first one with you. Exactly. Canberra Canberra Pans, I think we well and truly ⁓ punch up of our weight across the national, don't we? Absolutely.
speaker-1: Yeah, good one. Camera one, yay. Really, I think we really are like the leaders in how things are done across the country. Not at all. Maybe Smith.
speaker-0: Not that we're biased. Not at all. Well, I think you have lots of reason to ⁓ to have that position because you have won a million awards over the years. A few. Yeah. And being in business has just celebrated ten years.
speaker-1: Yes, so ten years of Little Bird, which has been so fun and it's gone super quick. I bet. and it's been a really crazy ride, but super rewarding.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. So I want to hear today all about, I guess, the little bird journey. I'd love to hear about your journey pre-Little Bird and what brought you into wanting to do your own business and and the way in which you've structured it. And also, I guess, some of the ⁓ measures you've had for success because I know in property management there's lots of ways we can measure success. ⁓ often that's numbers and growth and revenue. But I think looking from the outside, looking into your business success I would say is a lot more than that. Yeah. ⁓ so I'd love to unpack that with you today. Yeah, okay. All right. So let's start with you. Pre-Little Bird, what was the journey that actually brought you to that?
speaker-1: So I always had an interest in in real estate. My mum was always someone to go around to open homes and things like that and drag me along with as a kid. ⁓ when I was quite young, I had a rental property myself. So I was in my early twenties and border investment, which I interviewed property managers at the time. ⁓ and being really young and meeting these ⁓ property managers that came across as kind of Not to be rude, but like old and cranky. ⁓ I was like, ⁓ I just don't think I'd rent from them. So let's have a go at doing myself. So I did. And I mean, it was crazy now when I think about what I know now, what I didn't know then and how thankfully it worked out okay. and then I and I had a hospitality background. So I was working in hotels and hotel management. and I kinda got a bit over those hours. It was like, you know, sixty hour weeks plus. Yeah. I had two small kids. Yeah. ⁓ and I really just wanted a nine to five R. So I'm like, hey, you know what? I'm just gonna go and work in an office. Real estate sounds pretty pretty nine to five to me. Yeah. Little did I know. and yeah, that's kinda how it started. I applied for ⁓ I quit my hotel management job like pretty much straight away. Okay. and so I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna take four weeks and just, you know, see how it goes. And then I was bored after two days. So then I started I pretty much begged my first ⁓ into my first job in real estate. It was for a property management management admin. Yeah. You know, I was like, Yeah, I really want to be a property manager and I remember the principal and if he listens to this he'll know exactly who I'm talking about. And he said, you know, there's no glory in property management. And I was like, ⁓ that's okay. Yeah, cool. No worries. I just really like to meet people and do those things. And he was like, Yeah, well it's an admin job and we don't you know, it's yeah, he really played it down. Interesting. ⁓ anywho Moving along, it's we worked there for six months. ⁓ when I left there to actually get a property manager's job, he gave me flowers and was really sad and apparently that never happened with anyone else that left. So I felt really nice. Yeah, it was nice about that. anyway, so then I started Blackshaw. ⁓ and I was there for, you know, fifteen solid years. Long time. It's a long time. Yeah. And it was my it was my place. I learned so much there.
speaker-0: Really not. It's a long.
speaker-1: worked with so many people that taught me so many things. The Blackshaws obviously, you know, themselves gave me the opportunity, ⁓ to start with, which I'm very grateful for now. And that's kind of the journey. The journey. And then Little Bird, you know, that that just came out of, you know, wanting to do something that was mine, mainly. And also wanting to do something that put property management on a little bit of a pedestal. Yeah. ⁓ I always felt like it it was always a little bit of a sidekick to sales and that sales was the most important thing and ⁓ when you're working in those environments it's a little bit flattening sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, meh, I'm gonna give this a go. Yeah, ten years later.
speaker-0: Yeah, and and here we are ten years later. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So I want to rewind for a second. You talked about ⁓ fifteen years with an agency, the Camp Blackshores in Canberra, which is an exceptional business ⁓ and the opportunities you're grateful for. So I know ⁓ a lot of property managers get busy being busy in their role, right? And I think sometimes we lose sight of the bigger picture and the opportunities. From your experience at these various roles and in your own business, what can opportunities look like for property managers, do you think?
speaker-1: ⁓ there's huge opportunity for property managers. ⁓ I think if if you're the type of person that wants to grow and be better and make money, and essentially we're not doing it for fun, we're doing it to make money. Property management's a great job to do it in. ⁓ and I think I saw that within the network that I work for. Lots of successful agents. ⁓ and I wanted that too.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think ⁓ we we get hung up on titles a lot in property management. A little bit. Yeah. And so I think when we we before we started recording, we were talking about pathways and ⁓ being a small specialist property management business, the challenge you sometimes have to ⁓ as people grow. When when people are working in small rent smaller rent roles and smaller businesses, which is you know the standard across Australia, what would what advice I guess would you give to people who want the next challenge? If there's not a role, how can they still continue to grow and upskill themselves? I think
speaker-1: think letting your director know that, you know, and being engaged to be more involved in the business. And I think that's really key. I mean, I have Emily who started she had had, you know, a year or so experience in leasing and things like that. but she's my team leader now. And so ⁓ she started off as a PA essentially and just, you know, learning the the ropes and doing the inspections and doing all that running around sort of thing. But she just showed that initiative. And I think it's important if if y if that's what you want to do, to show that initiative, to learn other things about the business, not just ⁓ stay in your little in your little portfolio and do and just do that. Like it's nice to I love it when my staff are like, ⁓ so how about I do this or we can do some social media, you know, those sorts of things I love. Yeah. And it just shows to me that, you know, there there is room to grow. Absolutely. ⁓ and if you've got that drive, you can do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, great. And I you you're
speaker-1: With a business or without, you know, like I did. You don't ha need to have a franchise. You don't need to have you just need to have something in you that makes you want to be successful.
speaker-0: The initiative, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I ⁓ Emily's a great example of I think a real estate success story. Absolutely. Who has come through the ranks and is, you know, really a well regarded professional.
speaker-1: That's why I'm so proud of it. Yeah. And I'm so proud that I I'm gonna take the for training her and whatever. But ⁓ You should be. Yeah, she's ⁓ she's a real gem and I think she's a prime example of someone starting fresh in the industry and ⁓ and and doing really, really well.
speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause it is really it can be if people want it to be a lifelong career, can't it? You can yeah. I'm still learning fift eighteen years. Imagine you are too.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely everything every day is different. Yeah. And you think, ⁓ I've seen it all, but then something happens, you're like, Whoa. Yeah. That's new. I haven't done that before. ⁓ haven't heard of that. ⁓ so it is it's ever changing, which is the fun part. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And talk to me about obviously you ⁓ specialize in property management at Little Bird. Over the years you've had so much success. ⁓ you've got obviously a lot of loyal clients, a very loyal team. Have you ever felt the temptation or the pressure to expand your service offering? Yeah.
speaker-1: have. ⁓ we I'm constantly asked ⁓ when are you gonna do sales? I'm a salesperson, you need one, let's work together, those types of opportunities, but it's just not what I'm about. Property management, I s and I and I have to Because it's tempting, right? Because they're selling, the money's good, you know, I guess. Yeah. But then there's extra pressures as well. It's not something that we're trained in. So I kind of feel like it's two different skill sets and we're not skilled in that. Yeah. ⁓ we just correct. Yeah. Just run your own race. Yeah. ⁓ I'm a big believer in that one. Yeah. ⁓ I don't
speaker-0: Do you swim line?
speaker-1: And I and I also don't like Never Say Never, but I I don't think we'll ever do sales. Yeah. It's just not our thing. Not our jam. We've done a couple ⁓ and we all hated it every minute.
speaker-0: Why did you make the exception for those couple?
speaker-1: We were basically begged, yeah, right? ⁓ please, you know the property so well and dah da da da and we're like, Yeah, okay, all right, we'll do it. And then it was and this client was the loveliest landlord for many years. But the minute she had the vendor hat on and we had the s it was a different story. We just didn't have that same level of trust. Yeah. And fair enough. I mean, we we didn't know what we were doing. She knew that at the beginning, but I think it's out there in the world, people don't necessarily think that selling is very difficult mm but it absolutely is. Absolutely completely different. And we know that that's not our thing. Yeah.
speaker-0: The lessons we learn, right? Yeah. Tempting though. I mean, I know I know again from being in the Canberra community, you get a lot of inbound referrals. And I imagine in the absence of having sales, you've probably got some quite strong referral partnerships back out. Yeah. How have you developed those over the years? Like what do you look for?
speaker-1: Absolutely. Well, look, you know, I think when I first started there was so much support for me and Little Bird to begin with. And I had had the pleasure of working with so many sales agents. So when that first started, ⁓ and they a lot of those agents had gone out on their own as well and were only doing sales. So it kind of worked well that I wasn't a competitor. Yeah. ⁓ and could offer their clients a service. So those relationships have kind of just fought like were built years before Little Bird. so moving forward, you know, it's just something that's also you know, I I answer their tricky questions. I get calls from the most random people I've never met. I you do. Yeah, and be like, hey, so I've got this sale and the tenant this and ⁓ yeah, and I just give I'm happy to answer the questions and give the advice and I think that, you know, is and I don't do it for any reason other than to help someone out. ⁓ but you know, on the backside, you know, I'm the person they think of if they want someone to manage the property. Yeah, it is. It's it's it's great. And what I'm seeing now ten years down the track is our my property managers are also getting those calls and questions and ⁓ referrals. Yeah. Yeah. So it's working Yeah, they know. The culture. And they have the answer. Yeah, exactly. And they know it's not like in terms of culture, you know, it's not a like I don't view it ⁓
speaker-0: Exactly.
speaker-1: you know, the professional, the industry as a competition. Yeah. You know, there's plenty of business for everybody and if everybody just helps everybody out then it just raises the bar. Yeah. ⁓ and I've always had that mentality and my property managers and my team now all think the same way. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
speaker-0: Mm. I think there's n you know, as an industry, naturally there's competition, that's in industry. But I think we're very fortunate, particularly in Canberra as an industry for property management. I feel like we have this really great supportive network of people that like I've called you over the years and everyone looks out for each other, I think, in PM World, which is really nice.
speaker-1: Like Yeah, it is. And it like when you've just got something tricky or you've got a difficult person, it's nice to be able to just ring someone and go, Hey, so just running this off you you know, I do it too. Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ so I've always observed you I it's it's crazy we're saying before we started recording, we've worked in the industry for eighteenish years at the same time. And this is
speaker-1: So long. This is probably the longest time we've talked to each other.
speaker-0: ⁓ which is strange. Here we are. ⁓ I've always observed you as a very humble, no nonsense leader who kind of is driven by integrity. In terms of how you then apply, hey Ellie. In terms of how you apply that to your leadership style, what what would you describe your leadership style as being?
speaker-1: ⁓ my leadership style. I don't really know. I think I am always like very upfront. Yeah. And as you said, no nonsense is probably a good way to describe it. Like I always lead by example. Like if I ⁓ wouldn't do something, I don't expect the team to do it. And if I wouldn't deal with a client, I don't expect them to either. ⁓ and I and I think this is Probably something that I learnt over the years because sometimes you're in a situation where you just have to manage the client because that's what you're told to do. Whereas I like to say to my team, look, you know, if it's ⁓ it's up to you. Yeah. You know, if the client's so empowering if the client's difficult and we can't work around work work with them on it, well then you decide if they stay or go. That's amazing. Like if they're not fitting in with our ⁓ values, yeah, then
speaker-0: Make a call. Yeah. That's yeah, I imagine that's so empowering and quite unique still in the industry. Yeah. That the leaders giving the autonomy and the decision to their people. Yeah. ⁓ because a bad client can really make or break a PM's experience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean and the clients are great and I you know, we've we have some actually amazing clients in in Little Bird business. ⁓ but not everyone fits and and that's okay. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's okay and we don't have to try to make it work. Yeah. ⁓ and it's better for everyone if it's just like
speaker-0: Agreed. Yeah. And in terms of of attracting the right clients for your values and for what you're trying to achieve, what does that look like? I mean, you guys obviously ⁓ maintain really strong fees and deliver an amazing service, but when you go out to pitch and you've got half a dozen agents you're competing with, how how does Little Birds stand out? Because you consistently beat others at those listing presentations. Yeah.
speaker-1: It's it's getting increasingly d more difficult because people are very price sensitive. So it really you know, I have I do most of the listing. so I'm going out and for me I'm looking at obviously the property, like how much time is is this actually gonna take to manage? ⁓ just having conversations with clients regarding, you know, maintenance and just getting a vibe overall. You know, that and and I say to people when I book in Well, I'm gonna I need to come out and see the property and see if it's suitable for us. They're seeing if we're suitable for them, but we're what I also want to make sure that's the right fit. And sometimes you just can't tell. You think it's good and then it's not. Yes. Or you think it's not and it's like, ⁓ it's on the line and it turns out to be fine. So it's a it is a judgment call, but I think after twenty five years you can pick up there's just things you can pick up and go, yeah, no, this is not for us. Not for us. ⁓ but like I said, sometimes you just don't know. No.
speaker-0: No. Mm. Yeah, sometimes we do get it wrong. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, same. Take the wrong place. ⁓ absolutely. I remember in the early days of Little Bird, I signed up a client and it was all good. and it was the first termination I had to do under Little Bird. And it was interesting because I terminated clients before in my previous role, but you know, I could always blame the director. You know, the director decided and in this case it was like there was no one else. It was just me. So it was like, Yeah, I just just don't like it. This is not my vibe and ⁓ So that was really hard. Yeah. But and I had sleepless nights over that for sure. but it was a good decision and it was like the first one. So everyone ev the ones after that have been easier a little bit easier. Because it's like it's a risk. Yeah. You know, if they don't meet if they don't want to repair things or if ⁓ you know, the property's dangerous or something, that's a risk that I'm not prepared to take. ⁓ so yeah, it gets easier.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, when you know you're doing it for the right reasons, right? Yeah. And also I think to your comment about ⁓ the c the condition of the property or the state of the property as a brand, like you you your brand is really well represented in the market. And so I think marketing a property that's just not great damages the brand.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it's and and like sometimes it's not about having the perfect staged property. Like we have plenty we have properties from three hundred dollars a week to three thousand dollars a week. So we have a very broad range, but and they all get the same attention. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ and that and that's important because yeah, it's the same, fundamentally it's the same same things that are needed. Yeah. But in terms of operational structure, over the years I imagine you've worked in and tried lots of different ways of how the team's structured. What do you think for your business or what do you think as an industry is the best way for a business to manage a portfolio?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think task ⁓ well I've tried pod systems, I've tried a maintenance team and a rears team, and actually I just think that having one person completely running the portfolio is best. Yeah. I think my clients like that approach because it's one person to deal with, one person across everything. Yeah. There are ⁓ I guess some gaps that where problems can arise if that person leaves or something like that. But to make it smooth, we have systems in place where the communication is transparent and software helps with that nowadays. It's not in the property manager's head where it used to be. Yes. And God it's not anymore 'cause my memory's not that good anymore. so things are very transparent in that regard. And I think the clients like to have like they like to know who they're dealing with. Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the biggest like in terms of operation and that and how that looks now was very different to when I started. Obviously it was just me, so I was doing literally everything. ⁓ and then as we got as I got bigger, trying to work out, okay, so how are we going to manage this and keep the serv service up? So yeah, we did try things that were like, ⁓ that didn't work and then ⁓ had to fine-tune. But I think now we have some really good systems that's just gonna keep keep it rolling. Like we've got a really good training program for our new starters. Right. ⁓ we've got fabulous onboarding for our clients. So they know right from the get-go, even though they're meeting me, I'm not going to be the person that they can come. It's and it was really hard for me at the beginning to to be able to let that go. I mean I only stopped managing properties in 2024. Yeah. I might still had a portfolio. Yeah. Which is nuts. Yeah.
speaker-0: It's it's it's it's it's crazy, isn't it though? Because ⁓ as PMs, even as the business owner, so often we end up still on the tools. Yeah. Which I think there's real merit to to some degree because it keeps us current. It does. But not when it takes us away from being a leader and being available and
speaker-1: Well our biggest growth was ⁓ has been since I let go of that pro that portfolio. And and actually it was funny because I I remember writing to all the clients and these are some clients I've had for decades and saying, ⁓ just letting you know, you know, I'm handing over your property to Zana to be managed and Zana was had been with me for about twelve months and ⁓ she was nervous as because these were all my very special clients and so she was like, ⁓ and I and I had a lot of emails, ⁓ that's great, but no one actually cared. Yeah. And was kind of upset. I was like, hang on, wait, you're meant to be upset and sad and go, No, I want you. ⁓ but but it kind of reiterated, you know, I had built the trust for a long time and the direction that the business was going in, the clients trusted that I was making those right choices. So it was good. And and now the clients they love Sana too.
speaker-0: To me. So good. And I think that's a reflection of building a business that doesn't need you to be the point of contact. But that's success, right? Like if you had to be touching every single communication point or managing every property, we're doing something wrong as leaders.
speaker-1: Correct. Yeah. Like I just had ⁓ two weeks off in the male dives and Emily ran it, you know. ⁓ and it was it was wonderful. Yeah. ⁓ and there was no dramas and everything just ticked along.
speaker-0: And you had an actual break?
speaker-1: I did, yeah. I mean it wasn't the ideal time to go to the moundives but mm I went for my fiftieth birthday, so you know Sorry got it. Can't tease when I was born. It was good. Yeah. But it was it was good to see that it can just work.
speaker-0: Mm. A great way to celebrate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's that's real testament, I think, to your leadership and and the work you've put in and obviously the people that you've recruited. How do you think though, I I know a lot of you know, in my new model with podium, a lot of property managers haven't had a break in years because they feel like there isn't that framework or those systems in place and they they've they don't have the boundaries to be able to ⁓ step away and trust that things have been taken care of. How how do you build that trust among your team to know that it's okay if they take a break? 'Cause it's so important. Well I
speaker-1: guess again I'm happy I take a break. Yeah. You know, and it might just be an extra long weekend or a little bit longer at Christmas or something like that. But I think that if they see that I'm okay to do that and it's all good. Yeah. Then they can. They can too. ⁓ and it's also encouraged. ⁓ actually I've got one at the moment who needs to ⁓ well doesn't need to, but there's a lot of leave there. It's okay, so ⁓ I'm good, I'm good. I'm like, yeah, I know you're good. But let's have a break, you know, and go have a holiday and do some do some stuff and just log out, you know. and we're also I'm really one for ensuring the team are not working outside of hours. So constantly I'm, you know, it's five o'clock, it's five to five, or it's, you know, quarter to five. Let's we're done. Everything's done. Yeah. We're going now.
speaker-0: That I I imagine as an industry that is so rare.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ well I don't know now being out. I like I'm just running my thing and doing it the way I think it should be done. I I would hope that it's changing a little bit because, you know, people say to me, ⁓ how do you especially people from other states. They're like, well, what about after hours? And I'm like, what about it? Yeah. You know, like people don't need you twenty-four hours a day. And frankly, they don't pay enough to have someone at their beck and call 24 hours a day. ⁓ so there's a process for that. But I don't definitely do not expect my property managers to be working outside of those core hours. So it's when I'm interviewing people, I'm saying that straight up. Good. And it's just that's how it is. And I've actually, you know, been known to change Outlook passwords for people on leave who I know are reading their emails. Actually, Sharon, she's on leave at the moment, she's on long service leave. So I'm about to switch hers off. No.
speaker-0: Amazing. Yeah. We won't No, but you're right. Like it I mean we we get these people in our in our teams and our businesses that are so committed and work so hard that they sometimes do need to be forced to switch off because I think habitually we we feel like we particularly when we care about our clients and our team, we feel like we always have to be on. Yeah. Absolutely but the power of switching off and that proper break is
speaker-1: It's key. It's key to keeping them there. Yeah. And re and fresh enough to keep servicing the clients well. And wanting to. Yes. And you get to a point and you're like, ⁓ god, that owner again. Yeah. Or that tenant.
speaker-0: The burnout. Yeah. It's real. Yep. So I mean your business has always looked to me like an attraction business. And I imagine you've got no shortage of people lining up to want to join the team. Yeah. ⁓ how how do you think you've built that over the years?
speaker-1: Yeah. And there's signs. Mm-hmm. I have honestly I've got no idea. ⁓ I actually just think that I it's very good question. Yeah. ⁓ since we've won a few awards in the last few years, I've ⁓ and of late anyway, we've had a couple of people approach us that are, you know, say junior property man I hate those words, but like, you know less experienced property managers who want to learn and they see the business as a good place to learn from, which is amazing.
speaker-0: Good. Less exp.
speaker-1: Yeah. Because, you know, there is a real shortage of property managers, not just in Canberra, but all over. It's an industry people are leaving quicker than they're joining. Yeah. ⁓ because of all those pressures that they get put under. Yeah. ⁓ and I kinda look at it and go, well, you know what, if I can make the job fun to a certain degree. Of course. ⁓ but it's not actually the job. The job is the job. Yeah. You're gonna get bad situations, uncomfortable situations. ⁓ but if the environment that you're dealing with those ⁓ in is open and fun yeah and a little bit like, ⁓ my god, you know, ha ha ha ⁓ then it
speaker-0: it's easier to do it. Yeah, well it looks like that from what what you put on your socials, like the fun reels and the fun story the social events you guys do. Like it looks like you have a lot of fun as a team.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I think if I wasn't such an introvert, we'd be doing way more reels. But I'm not I'm not a video person, so ⁓ we probably could, but we don't. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's all done in house. Like Emily and myself and the team, we're all fully involved in what what gets put up there. ⁓ so we don't a lot of people say to me, ⁓ you who's managing your socials? No one, like it's just us and I find but I feel like it's really honest. Yes. That way. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Well, it looks good. Yeah. It feels real and authentic. Yes.
speaker-1: We're doing it and it's not not, you know, pre recorded and it's not just, you know, on trend. It's it's just honest, real, being authentic, us, you know? We're trying to be funny, yeah. There's some really funny ones. Yeah. You should see the ones that don't make it. Or something. Maybe. I love that.
speaker-0: funny. Yeah. They're always There are really good ones. Gosh. Can you start posting them? So much fun. ⁓ and I mean it does, it does. For a lot of people it's out of their comfort zone being on camera and speaking like we were talking about earlier. ⁓ but I think it's important as well because that that's where when we're talking about recruitment, that's where our property managers are looking, right? They're on the socials. Yeah they are. They're scrolling.
speaker-1: It's that demographic. I mean, ⁓ I'm trying to learn more about the generation A? Is it ⁓ the the n the new the the younger, like ⁓ my girl's age. So fifteen, sixteen year old, like that'll be in the workforce soon. And they operate and think so differently too.
speaker-0: Generation A, tell me about that.
speaker-1: Generation X, which is me. ⁓ and even the Millennials, which we're all millennials except for me and Sharon in our office. and then we've got ⁓ their office coming up. So it's like, okay, well, how are we gonna make sure that we're gonna get those people to come and work for me as well? Yeah. ⁓ and so that property manager can always tick along. Yes. That's kind of what I'd like to see happen. I'd like to have a and I do have currently a whole group of young women. Yeah. who are fully empowered to do well and learn as much as they can and do all their training so that, you know, when I'm ready to retire there's others doing it and hopefully carry on the little bird. Absolut branding. Yeah.
speaker-0: So with with the mind of ⁓ putting ourselves in the generation A Yeah, what what what what do we need to do as leaders? What does that look like?
speaker-1: A. I think it's A. Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. Make make sure that I'm above it a bit. But I mean my my two girls that help me with that a lot. Yeah. ⁓ and and sometimes they're like, Mum, that is so cringe. You cannot say that. Or they they say to me, ⁓ you're such a boomer. ⁓ And ⁓ the way I look at my phone and and do things and they're like, ⁓ don't do that. Don't do that, Mum. ⁓ So and I think it's just staying relevant to those generational you know, trends. ⁓ so that people are not looking at the brand and going, ⁓ that's so old.
speaker-0: Yeah. So do we need to drop some like slang into our emails? Like another word. Now we sound old.
speaker-1: I don't know. Totally my daughter's watch is and go, ⁓ my god, my couple of sh I believe you did Yeah, I think it's just keeping up with ⁓ you know, the evolving nature of how, you know, the tech generation ⁓ are gonna be ⁓ wanting to work. Yeah. Not everyone's gonna be wanting to work the same way.
speaker-0: But I'm right here with you. But it's an interesting point 'cause it's not just our team members, it's also our clients. Absolutely. Our tenants and our owners. So how are we communicating with them in a way that resonates and is relevant and meaningful because long emails are probably not going to be well.
speaker-1: received. No. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I get so many chat ⁓ responses to emails. It's crazy. I got one the other day saying I I decided to go with another agent and it was Chat GBT and I'm like, wow, you couldn't even be bothered to write write my rejection.
speaker-0: I mean it's a bit of a giveaway when it's like, let me know if you want me to make this sound nicer and they copy that by mistake. Yeah. They're my favorite.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean and that's, you know, part of the challenges of moving forward with any business and that is dealing with, you know, ⁓ and ar and having confrontation with AI. Yeah. ⁓ we've had a recent tribunal long case. Yeah. It was pretty basic but it was dragged on for a very long time and it was because, you know, if you don't tell AI that you want to actually resolve the problem, it'll just keep going. And this is what the What's happening? Yeah. So it was just going on and on and on and on with no end. It's like, hey, can you just tell chat that you want to wrap this up? I come here.
speaker-0: Give me an outcome. Let's have an Here's a prompt for Chat GPT.
speaker-1: ⁓ but yeah, this is this is the some of the challenges.
speaker-0: How do you think, ⁓ from a property management lens with AI, how do you think, you know, crystal ball, what the next six to twelve months as our industry looks like, what do you think the biggest shifts will be?
speaker-1: Well, I've seen and heard, you know, AI answering phones. ⁓ I mean, even if you want to book a restaurant, you talk to an AI. ⁓ and look, I I probably a little bit old school in that regard. Like it's not something that I'm about. Like it's not it's it's like offshoring. Like it's something that I won't do or and have not done. Yeah. ⁓ but it's there. So I guess it just depends on how, you know, each business wants to take it on. But for Little Bird, you know, AI is just there to potentially assist but not drive. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So the team, I know they use it. Yeah. And that's fine. I have no issue with that. I mean it's built into Outlook. Yeah, exactly. It's but built into property me. Yeah. ⁓ but it's not it it I and we talk about this a lot in the office. It's not the driver. Yeah.
speaker-0: Smart.
speaker-1: ⁓ yes, okay, so it can give you some ideas and help you fluff something or whatever. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's you know, you need to be authentic to be a property manager. Great. And it and that's just not Absolutely.
speaker-0: And you can tell when someone's used AI. Yeah, it's a completely different voice.
speaker-1: It just doesn't sound like you. No. I mean I AI chat ⁓ responded to my daughter once and she was like, I can't believe you chat And I was like, Yeah, okay, listen learn. Yeah, love it. but yeah, so it's it's it's there to assist. Yeah, I think. And if ever ⁓ you know, and my team that's what I'll be sort of how I'll be playing it. Yeah. ⁓ it's not driving it though. Yeah.
speaker-0: Challenge. I'd like to think AI will enable us to remove the repetitive, predictable, mundane tasks from the role, which will free up if people use offshore, free up offshore to be upskilled to do what then becomes the lower level tasks of PM. To free up the PM to really focus on relationships. Like I'd love if we see that evolution. And for those that aren't using offshore, we skip that bit and instead the PM is straight away in that position. Yeah. Because I think when we talk about the downward pressure on fees and increasingly complex legislation, the relationship piece is probably more relevant and critical, I think, than ever.
speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely. Like you you know, there will you can't take the person out of property management because there's other people involved. ⁓ and even I mean, like I said, I'm not I'm not a huge fan of offshoring. Yeah. ⁓ because I think it's important that the property managers are across what the client is gonna want. Yeah. You know, when there's gaps, when it's like, well, you know, you've got someone overseas answering e it's obvious as well. You know, and there's gaps because they don't actually know, they're just following a checklist of what to do. ⁓ I just think that's really impersonal. I'm not a fan and I I I it has its place and I get it. but it's also I think important for the property manager to know everything that's going on and also understand the client better. Yeah. And they can do they can't do that when someone else is doing part of the job. Yeah.
speaker-0: That makes perfect sense. It's it's all about building trust in those touch points.
speaker-1: Yeah. And even the mundane tasks, they have a place and you know, the client appreciates it if you're the one sending the let the statement. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just little things. ⁓ and then know that they're there and they're they're listening. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. ⁓ talk to me about your values.
speaker-1: Probably oof honesty. Yeah. I mean, probably a bit boring, but not at all. ⁓ hundred percent couldn't couldn't mislead or lie or embellish if I tried. Just not in me. Yeah. ⁓ and I lead that way. and integrity, you know, as well. I guess I always wanna do the best. Yeah. And I wanna be the best as well. ⁓ and that's changed, be the best has changed over the years. You know, you obviously want to be the best mum and the best wife and you know, you want to be the best property manager. And now it's more about me being the best at building the team. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and making them feel like they can they can then do that themselves.
speaker-0: I love that. And so what does I guess success look like like in the next two, three years at Little Bird, what does success look like for you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think it's probably growing the team and like empowering them even more. Like we've got a couple of newbies that have just started. ⁓ so you know that first two years is really critical learning for them. Yeah. And it's make or break. Yeah. ⁓ so I'd love to see them really, you know, ⁓ lock in. Yeah. ⁓ and then obviously bring in some new ones as well. Great. Yeah, and just keep I'm always
speaker-0: Yeah. So sustainable success.
speaker-1: one to two people ahead of what's required. Smart. ⁓ you know, and I think you need to be. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. We spoke in the last episode of collab with the girls from Someday, Grace and Jess, and talking about ⁓ recruiting before you need people. Because you get people on leave, you get people sick, you get people leaving. ⁓ and having that redundancy I think's critical to ensure culture continues.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And you just can't have that downtime. There's just no gaps for it. And and you know, the industry or the the the role is pretty unforgiving. Yeah. You know, you miss one inspection, it's not good. No. Like there's so many repercussions from that. ⁓ so I think having more staff is way better. Smart. I mean from a dollar perspective it's probably, you know, not overly, you know. Sure. But it's not it's not all about that. Yeah.
speaker-0: If you look that in isolation, absolutely. If you look at it hilarious.
speaker-1: 'Cause it 'cause it adds a pressure on the team. Someone leaves and they're managing more properties and they're there's more problems and everyone's a bit more stressed, it's just not
speaker-0: Compounds, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I'd rather pay the extra up front and absolutely the rest. ⁓ what are you most proud of in your career?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Obviously Little Bird, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of how it's evolved and grown and I'm really proud of the people that are in it. Yeah. You know, most of them have started from scratch and watching them now just navigate the the job and you know the problems that can come up ⁓ pretty much independently is I'm really proud of that.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. That's amazing. ⁓ my last question for you, bit of a bit of a deep question, but ⁓ you talked earlier about the the future and retirement and being able to have the business continue on successfully. What what I mean, you've been in the industry twenty-three
speaker-1: ⁓ I think it's like twenty five. Twenty five years. So well actually no wait, twenty three years. Twenty seven when I started, I'm fifty now, so yeah.
speaker-0: Having been in the industry for twenty three years and done lots of remarkable, amazing things and continuing to do those things, when you at some stage in the future do step away from it and retire and spend more time in the maldives, ⁓ what legacy do you hope to leave behind for your team in the industry? I know, sorry. I did pre frame that it was deep. Yeah, but I'm curious.
speaker-1: I know that's so deep. Little Bird in itself is its own thing outside of me. Yeah. That's how I feel. Like I don't look at L Little Bird as being about Heidi Rosen. Little Bird is about making property management stand on its own and be successful in its own right. ⁓ so I guess that's a legacy enough. Yeah. ⁓ it's a huge legacy. Ra rather than it being about me, it's more about that. That that can be that can be done. Yeah. Great answer. Does that sense? Yep.
speaker-0: makes perfect sense. And you should be so proud of that. Like as I've said, ⁓ just in awe of your business and what you've achieved and the team that you've built. And I think I'm so pleased that we have operators like you in Canberra and in the industry because it just lifts the standard for the rest of us.
speaker-1: Yeah, we tr I try and like I said, it's just something I've always had a passion about about and I'm always willing to help others and you know, ever there's just running run your own race is sort of some advice.
speaker-0: Good advice. Well thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you. Hopefully it wasn't too painful.
speaker-1: Okay. No, it was just like it just ignore the cameras. Exactly. I hope I got you got some stuff out of it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, and the microphone. I mean that was great.
speaker-1: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's really exciting to be here. I've never done a podcast before.
speaker-0: So Well, I'm glad I can be the first one with you. Exactly. Canberra Canberra Pans, I think we well and truly ⁓ punch up of our weight across the national, don't we? Absolutely.
speaker-1: Yeah, good one. Camera one, yay. Really, I think we really are like the leaders in how things are done across the country. Not at all. Maybe Smith.
speaker-0: Not that we're biased. Not at all. Well, I think you have lots of reason to ⁓ to have that position because you have won a million awards over the years. A few. Yeah. And being in business has just celebrated ten years.
speaker-1: Yes, so ten years of Little Bird, which has been so fun and it's gone super quick. I bet. and it's been a really crazy ride, but super rewarding.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. So I want to hear today all about, I guess, the little bird journey. I'd love to hear about your journey pre-Little Bird and what brought you into wanting to do your own business and and the way in which you've structured it. And also, I guess, some of the ⁓ measures you've had for success because I know in property management there's lots of ways we can measure success. ⁓ often that's numbers and growth and revenue. But I think looking from the outside, looking into your business success I would say is a lot more than that. Yeah. ⁓ so I'd love to unpack that with you today. Yeah, okay. All right. So let's start with you. Pre-Little Bird, what was the journey that actually brought you to that?
speaker-1: So I always had an interest in in real estate. My mum was always someone to go around to open homes and things like that and drag me along with as a kid. ⁓ when I was quite young, I had a rental property myself. So I was in my early twenties and border investment, which I interviewed property managers at the time. ⁓ and being really young and meeting these ⁓ property managers that came across as kind of Not to be rude, but like old and cranky. ⁓ I was like, ⁓ I just don't think I'd rent from them. So let's have a go at doing myself. So I did. And I mean, it was crazy now when I think about what I know now, what I didn't know then and how thankfully it worked out okay. and then I and I had a hospitality background. So I was working in hotels and hotel management. and I kinda got a bit over those hours. It was like, you know, sixty hour weeks plus. Yeah. I had two small kids. Yeah. ⁓ and I really just wanted a nine to five R. So I'm like, hey, you know what? I'm just gonna go and work in an office. Real estate sounds pretty pretty nine to five to me. Yeah. Little did I know. and yeah, that's kinda how it started. I applied for ⁓ I quit my hotel management job like pretty much straight away. Okay. and so I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna take four weeks and just, you know, see how it goes. And then I was bored after two days. So then I started I pretty much begged my first ⁓ into my first job in real estate. It was for a property management management admin. Yeah. You know, I was like, Yeah, I really want to be a property manager and I remember the principal and if he listens to this he'll know exactly who I'm talking about. And he said, you know, there's no glory in property management. And I was like, ⁓ that's okay. Yeah, cool. No worries. I just really like to meet people and do those things. And he was like, Yeah, well it's an admin job and we don't you know, it's yeah, he really played it down. Interesting. ⁓ anywho Moving along, it's we worked there for six months. ⁓ when I left there to actually get a property manager's job, he gave me flowers and was really sad and apparently that never happened with anyone else that left. So I felt really nice. Yeah, it was nice about that. anyway, so then I started Blackshaw. ⁓ and I was there for, you know, fifteen solid years. Long time. It's a long time. Yeah. And it was my it was my place. I learned so much there.
speaker-0: Really not. It's a long.
speaker-1: worked with so many people that taught me so many things. The Blackshaws obviously, you know, themselves gave me the opportunity, ⁓ to start with, which I'm very grateful for now. And that's kind of the journey. The journey. And then Little Bird, you know, that that just came out of, you know, wanting to do something that was mine, mainly. And also wanting to do something that put property management on a little bit of a pedestal. Yeah. ⁓ I always felt like it it was always a little bit of a sidekick to sales and that sales was the most important thing and ⁓ when you're working in those environments it's a little bit flattening sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So I was like, meh, I'm gonna give this a go. Yeah, ten years later.
speaker-0: Yeah, and and here we are ten years later. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So I want to rewind for a second. You talked about ⁓ fifteen years with an agency, the Camp Blackshores in Canberra, which is an exceptional business ⁓ and the opportunities you're grateful for. So I know ⁓ a lot of property managers get busy being busy in their role, right? And I think sometimes we lose sight of the bigger picture and the opportunities. From your experience at these various roles and in your own business, what can opportunities look like for property managers, do you think?
speaker-1: ⁓ there's huge opportunity for property managers. ⁓ I think if if you're the type of person that wants to grow and be better and make money, and essentially we're not doing it for fun, we're doing it to make money. Property management's a great job to do it in. ⁓ and I think I saw that within the network that I work for. Lots of successful agents. ⁓ and I wanted that too.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think ⁓ we we get hung up on titles a lot in property management. A little bit. Yeah. And so I think when we we before we started recording, we were talking about pathways and ⁓ being a small specialist property management business, the challenge you sometimes have to ⁓ as people grow. When when people are working in small rent smaller rent roles and smaller businesses, which is you know the standard across Australia, what would what advice I guess would you give to people who want the next challenge? If there's not a role, how can they still continue to grow and upskill themselves? I think
speaker-1: think letting your director know that, you know, and being engaged to be more involved in the business. And I think that's really key. I mean, I have Emily who started she had had, you know, a year or so experience in leasing and things like that. but she's my team leader now. And so ⁓ she started off as a PA essentially and just, you know, learning the the ropes and doing the inspections and doing all that running around sort of thing. But she just showed that initiative. And I think it's important if if y if that's what you want to do, to show that initiative, to learn other things about the business, not just ⁓ stay in your little in your little portfolio and do and just do that. Like it's nice to I love it when my staff are like, ⁓ so how about I do this or we can do some social media, you know, those sorts of things I love. Yeah. And it just shows to me that, you know, there there is room to grow. Absolutely. ⁓ and if you've got that drive, you can do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, great. And I you you're
speaker-1: With a business or without, you know, like I did. You don't ha need to have a franchise. You don't need to have you just need to have something in you that makes you want to be successful.
speaker-0: The initiative, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I ⁓ Emily's a great example of I think a real estate success story. Absolutely. Who has come through the ranks and is, you know, really a well regarded professional.
speaker-1: That's why I'm so proud of it. Yeah. And I'm so proud that I I'm gonna take the for training her and whatever. But ⁓ You should be. Yeah, she's ⁓ she's a real gem and I think she's a prime example of someone starting fresh in the industry and ⁓ and and doing really, really well.
speaker-0: Yeah, 'cause it is really it can be if people want it to be a lifelong career, can't it? You can yeah. I'm still learning fift eighteen years. Imagine you are too.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely everything every day is different. Yeah. And you think, ⁓ I've seen it all, but then something happens, you're like, Whoa. Yeah. That's new. I haven't done that before. ⁓ haven't heard of that. ⁓ so it is it's ever changing, which is the fun part. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, I agree. And talk to me about obviously you ⁓ specialize in property management at Little Bird. Over the years you've had so much success. ⁓ you've got obviously a lot of loyal clients, a very loyal team. Have you ever felt the temptation or the pressure to expand your service offering? Yeah.
speaker-1: have. ⁓ we I'm constantly asked ⁓ when are you gonna do sales? I'm a salesperson, you need one, let's work together, those types of opportunities, but it's just not what I'm about. Property management, I s and I and I have to Because it's tempting, right? Because they're selling, the money's good, you know, I guess. Yeah. But then there's extra pressures as well. It's not something that we're trained in. So I kind of feel like it's two different skill sets and we're not skilled in that. Yeah. ⁓ we just correct. Yeah. Just run your own race. Yeah. ⁓ I'm a big believer in that one. Yeah. ⁓ I don't
speaker-0: Do you swim line?
speaker-1: And I and I also don't like Never Say Never, but I I don't think we'll ever do sales. Yeah. It's just not our thing. Not our jam. We've done a couple ⁓ and we all hated it every minute.
speaker-0: Why did you make the exception for those couple?
speaker-1: We were basically begged, yeah, right? ⁓ please, you know the property so well and dah da da da and we're like, Yeah, okay, all right, we'll do it. And then it was and this client was the loveliest landlord for many years. But the minute she had the vendor hat on and we had the s it was a different story. We just didn't have that same level of trust. Yeah. And fair enough. I mean, we we didn't know what we were doing. She knew that at the beginning, but I think it's out there in the world, people don't necessarily think that selling is very difficult mm but it absolutely is. Absolutely completely different. And we know that that's not our thing. Yeah.
speaker-0: The lessons we learn, right? Yeah. Tempting though. I mean, I know I know again from being in the Canberra community, you get a lot of inbound referrals. And I imagine in the absence of having sales, you've probably got some quite strong referral partnerships back out. Yeah. How have you developed those over the years? Like what do you look for?
speaker-1: Absolutely. Well, look, you know, I think when I first started there was so much support for me and Little Bird to begin with. And I had had the pleasure of working with so many sales agents. So when that first started, ⁓ and they a lot of those agents had gone out on their own as well and were only doing sales. So it kind of worked well that I wasn't a competitor. Yeah. ⁓ and could offer their clients a service. So those relationships have kind of just fought like were built years before Little Bird. so moving forward, you know, it's just something that's also you know, I I answer their tricky questions. I get calls from the most random people I've never met. I you do. Yeah, and be like, hey, so I've got this sale and the tenant this and ⁓ yeah, and I just give I'm happy to answer the questions and give the advice and I think that, you know, is and I don't do it for any reason other than to help someone out. ⁓ but you know, on the backside, you know, I'm the person they think of if they want someone to manage the property. Yeah, it is. It's it's it's great. And what I'm seeing now ten years down the track is our my property managers are also getting those calls and questions and ⁓ referrals. Yeah. Yeah. So it's working Yeah, they know. The culture. And they have the answer. Yeah, exactly. And they know it's not like in terms of culture, you know, it's not a like I don't view it ⁓
speaker-0: Exactly.
speaker-1: you know, the professional, the industry as a competition. Yeah. You know, there's plenty of business for everybody and if everybody just helps everybody out then it just raises the bar. Yeah. ⁓ and I've always had that mentality and my property managers and my team now all think the same way. Yeah. Yeah. It's great.
speaker-0: Mm. I think there's n you know, as an industry, naturally there's competition, that's in industry. But I think we're very fortunate, particularly in Canberra as an industry for property management. I feel like we have this really great supportive network of people that like I've called you over the years and everyone looks out for each other, I think, in PM World, which is really nice.
speaker-1: Like Yeah, it is. And it like when you've just got something tricky or you've got a difficult person, it's nice to be able to just ring someone and go, Hey, so just running this off you you know, I do it too. Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ so I've always observed you I it's it's crazy we're saying before we started recording, we've worked in the industry for eighteenish years at the same time. And this is
speaker-1: So long. This is probably the longest time we've talked to each other.
speaker-0: ⁓ which is strange. Here we are. ⁓ I've always observed you as a very humble, no nonsense leader who kind of is driven by integrity. In terms of how you then apply, hey Ellie. In terms of how you apply that to your leadership style, what what would you describe your leadership style as being?
speaker-1: ⁓ my leadership style. I don't really know. I think I am always like very upfront. Yeah. And as you said, no nonsense is probably a good way to describe it. Like I always lead by example. Like if I ⁓ wouldn't do something, I don't expect the team to do it. And if I wouldn't deal with a client, I don't expect them to either. ⁓ and I and I think this is Probably something that I learnt over the years because sometimes you're in a situation where you just have to manage the client because that's what you're told to do. Whereas I like to say to my team, look, you know, if it's ⁓ it's up to you. Yeah. You know, if the client's so empowering if the client's difficult and we can't work around work work with them on it, well then you decide if they stay or go. That's amazing. Like if they're not fitting in with our ⁓ values, yeah, then
speaker-0: Make a call. Yeah. That's yeah, I imagine that's so empowering and quite unique still in the industry. Yeah. That the leaders giving the autonomy and the decision to their people. Yeah. ⁓ because a bad client can really make or break a PM's experience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean and the clients are great and I you know, we've we have some actually amazing clients in in Little Bird business. ⁓ but not everyone fits and and that's okay. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's okay and we don't have to try to make it work. Yeah. ⁓ and it's better for everyone if it's just like
speaker-0: Agreed. Yeah. And in terms of of attracting the right clients for your values and for what you're trying to achieve, what does that look like? I mean, you guys obviously ⁓ maintain really strong fees and deliver an amazing service, but when you go out to pitch and you've got half a dozen agents you're competing with, how how does Little Birds stand out? Because you consistently beat others at those listing presentations. Yeah.
speaker-1: It's it's getting increasingly d more difficult because people are very price sensitive. So it really you know, I have I do most of the listing. so I'm going out and for me I'm looking at obviously the property, like how much time is is this actually gonna take to manage? ⁓ just having conversations with clients regarding, you know, maintenance and just getting a vibe overall. You know, that and and I say to people when I book in Well, I'm gonna I need to come out and see the property and see if it's suitable for us. They're seeing if we're suitable for them, but we're what I also want to make sure that's the right fit. And sometimes you just can't tell. You think it's good and then it's not. Yes. Or you think it's not and it's like, ⁓ it's on the line and it turns out to be fine. So it's a it is a judgment call, but I think after twenty five years you can pick up there's just things you can pick up and go, yeah, no, this is not for us. Not for us. ⁓ but like I said, sometimes you just don't know. No.
speaker-0: No. Mm. Yeah, sometimes we do get it wrong. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, same. Take the wrong place. ⁓ absolutely. I remember in the early days of Little Bird, I signed up a client and it was all good. and it was the first termination I had to do under Little Bird. And it was interesting because I terminated clients before in my previous role, but you know, I could always blame the director. You know, the director decided and in this case it was like there was no one else. It was just me. So it was like, Yeah, I just just don't like it. This is not my vibe and ⁓ So that was really hard. Yeah. But and I had sleepless nights over that for sure. but it was a good decision and it was like the first one. So everyone ev the ones after that have been easier a little bit easier. Because it's like it's a risk. Yeah. You know, if they don't meet if they don't want to repair things or if ⁓ you know, the property's dangerous or something, that's a risk that I'm not prepared to take. ⁓ so yeah, it gets easier.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Yeah, when you know you're doing it for the right reasons, right? Yeah. And also I think to your comment about ⁓ the c the condition of the property or the state of the property as a brand, like you you your brand is really well represented in the market. And so I think marketing a property that's just not great damages the brand.
speaker-1: Yeah, and it's and and like sometimes it's not about having the perfect staged property. Like we have plenty we have properties from three hundred dollars a week to three thousand dollars a week. So we have a very broad range, but and they all get the same attention. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: ⁓ and that and that's important because yeah, it's the same, fundamentally it's the same same things that are needed. Yeah. But in terms of operational structure, over the years I imagine you've worked in and tried lots of different ways of how the team's structured. What do you think for your business or what do you think as an industry is the best way for a business to manage a portfolio?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think task ⁓ well I've tried pod systems, I've tried a maintenance team and a rears team, and actually I just think that having one person completely running the portfolio is best. Yeah. I think my clients like that approach because it's one person to deal with, one person across everything. Yeah. There are ⁓ I guess some gaps that where problems can arise if that person leaves or something like that. But to make it smooth, we have systems in place where the communication is transparent and software helps with that nowadays. It's not in the property manager's head where it used to be. Yes. And God it's not anymore 'cause my memory's not that good anymore. so things are very transparent in that regard. And I think the clients like to have like they like to know who they're dealing with. Yeah, I agree. And I think one of the biggest like in terms of operation and that and how that looks now was very different to when I started. Obviously it was just me, so I was doing literally everything. ⁓ and then as we got as I got bigger, trying to work out, okay, so how are we going to manage this and keep the serv service up? So yeah, we did try things that were like, ⁓ that didn't work and then ⁓ had to fine-tune. But I think now we have some really good systems that's just gonna keep keep it rolling. Like we've got a really good training program for our new starters. Right. ⁓ we've got fabulous onboarding for our clients. So they know right from the get-go, even though they're meeting me, I'm not going to be the person that they can come. It's and it was really hard for me at the beginning to to be able to let that go. I mean I only stopped managing properties in 2024. Yeah. I might still had a portfolio. Yeah. Which is nuts. Yeah.
speaker-0: It's it's it's it's it's crazy, isn't it though? Because ⁓ as PMs, even as the business owner, so often we end up still on the tools. Yeah. Which I think there's real merit to to some degree because it keeps us current. It does. But not when it takes us away from being a leader and being available and
speaker-1: Well our biggest growth was ⁓ has been since I let go of that pro that portfolio. And and actually it was funny because I I remember writing to all the clients and these are some clients I've had for decades and saying, ⁓ just letting you know, you know, I'm handing over your property to Zana to be managed and Zana was had been with me for about twelve months and ⁓ she was nervous as because these were all my very special clients and so she was like, ⁓ and I and I had a lot of emails, ⁓ that's great, but no one actually cared. Yeah. And was kind of upset. I was like, hang on, wait, you're meant to be upset and sad and go, No, I want you. ⁓ but but it kind of reiterated, you know, I had built the trust for a long time and the direction that the business was going in, the clients trusted that I was making those right choices. So it was good. And and now the clients they love Sana too.
speaker-0: To me. So good. And I think that's a reflection of building a business that doesn't need you to be the point of contact. But that's success, right? Like if you had to be touching every single communication point or managing every property, we're doing something wrong as leaders.
speaker-1: Correct. Yeah. Like I just had ⁓ two weeks off in the male dives and Emily ran it, you know. ⁓ and it was it was wonderful. Yeah. ⁓ and there was no dramas and everything just ticked along.
speaker-0: And you had an actual break?
speaker-1: I did, yeah. I mean it wasn't the ideal time to go to the moundives but mm I went for my fiftieth birthday, so you know Sorry got it. Can't tease when I was born. It was good. Yeah. But it was it was good to see that it can just work.
speaker-0: Mm. A great way to celebrate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's that's real testament, I think, to your leadership and and the work you've put in and obviously the people that you've recruited. How do you think though, I I know a lot of you know, in my new model with podium, a lot of property managers haven't had a break in years because they feel like there isn't that framework or those systems in place and they they've they don't have the boundaries to be able to ⁓ step away and trust that things have been taken care of. How how do you build that trust among your team to know that it's okay if they take a break? 'Cause it's so important. Well I
speaker-1: guess again I'm happy I take a break. Yeah. You know, and it might just be an extra long weekend or a little bit longer at Christmas or something like that. But I think that if they see that I'm okay to do that and it's all good. Yeah. Then they can. They can too. ⁓ and it's also encouraged. ⁓ actually I've got one at the moment who needs to ⁓ well doesn't need to, but there's a lot of leave there. It's okay, so ⁓ I'm good, I'm good. I'm like, yeah, I know you're good. But let's have a break, you know, and go have a holiday and do some do some stuff and just log out, you know. and we're also I'm really one for ensuring the team are not working outside of hours. So constantly I'm, you know, it's five o'clock, it's five to five, or it's, you know, quarter to five. Let's we're done. Everything's done. Yeah. We're going now.
speaker-0: That I I imagine as an industry that is so rare.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ well I don't know now being out. I like I'm just running my thing and doing it the way I think it should be done. I I would hope that it's changing a little bit because, you know, people say to me, ⁓ how do you especially people from other states. They're like, well, what about after hours? And I'm like, what about it? Yeah. You know, like people don't need you twenty-four hours a day. And frankly, they don't pay enough to have someone at their beck and call 24 hours a day. ⁓ so there's a process for that. But I don't definitely do not expect my property managers to be working outside of those core hours. So it's when I'm interviewing people, I'm saying that straight up. Good. And it's just that's how it is. And I've actually, you know, been known to change Outlook passwords for people on leave who I know are reading their emails. Actually, Sharon, she's on leave at the moment, she's on long service leave. So I'm about to switch hers off. No.
speaker-0: Amazing. Yeah. We won't No, but you're right. Like it I mean we we get these people in our in our teams and our businesses that are so committed and work so hard that they sometimes do need to be forced to switch off because I think habitually we we feel like we particularly when we care about our clients and our team, we feel like we always have to be on. Yeah. Absolutely but the power of switching off and that proper break is
speaker-1: It's key. It's key to keeping them there. Yeah. And re and fresh enough to keep servicing the clients well. And wanting to. Yes. And you get to a point and you're like, ⁓ god, that owner again. Yeah. Or that tenant.
speaker-0: The burnout. Yeah. It's real. Yep. So I mean your business has always looked to me like an attraction business. And I imagine you've got no shortage of people lining up to want to join the team. Yeah. ⁓ how how do you think you've built that over the years?
speaker-1: Yeah. And there's signs. Mm-hmm. I have honestly I've got no idea. ⁓ I actually just think that I it's very good question. Yeah. ⁓ since we've won a few awards in the last few years, I've ⁓ and of late anyway, we've had a couple of people approach us that are, you know, say junior property man I hate those words, but like, you know less experienced property managers who want to learn and they see the business as a good place to learn from, which is amazing.
speaker-0: Good. Less exp.
speaker-1: Yeah. Because, you know, there is a real shortage of property managers, not just in Canberra, but all over. It's an industry people are leaving quicker than they're joining. Yeah. ⁓ because of all those pressures that they get put under. Yeah. ⁓ and I kinda look at it and go, well, you know what, if I can make the job fun to a certain degree. Of course. ⁓ but it's not actually the job. The job is the job. Yeah. You're gonna get bad situations, uncomfortable situations. ⁓ but if the environment that you're dealing with those ⁓ in is open and fun yeah and a little bit like, ⁓ my god, you know, ha ha ha ⁓ then it
speaker-0: it's easier to do it. Yeah, well it looks like that from what what you put on your socials, like the fun reels and the fun story the social events you guys do. Like it looks like you have a lot of fun as a team.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, I think if I wasn't such an introvert, we'd be doing way more reels. But I'm not I'm not a video person, so ⁓ we probably could, but we don't. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's all done in house. Like Emily and myself and the team, we're all fully involved in what what gets put up there. ⁓ so we don't a lot of people say to me, ⁓ you who's managing your socials? No one, like it's just us and I find but I feel like it's really honest. Yes. That way. ⁓
speaker-0: Yeah. Well, it looks good. Yeah. It feels real and authentic. Yes.
speaker-1: We're doing it and it's not not, you know, pre recorded and it's not just, you know, on trend. It's it's just honest, real, being authentic, us, you know? We're trying to be funny, yeah. There's some really funny ones. Yeah. You should see the ones that don't make it. Or something. Maybe. I love that.
speaker-0: funny. Yeah. They're always There are really good ones. Gosh. Can you start posting them? So much fun. ⁓ and I mean it does, it does. For a lot of people it's out of their comfort zone being on camera and speaking like we were talking about earlier. ⁓ but I think it's important as well because that that's where when we're talking about recruitment, that's where our property managers are looking, right? They're on the socials. Yeah they are. They're scrolling.
speaker-1: It's that demographic. I mean, ⁓ I'm trying to learn more about the generation A? Is it ⁓ the the n the new the the younger, like ⁓ my girl's age. So fifteen, sixteen year old, like that'll be in the workforce soon. And they operate and think so differently too.
speaker-0: Generation A, tell me about that.
speaker-1: Generation X, which is me. ⁓ and even the Millennials, which we're all millennials except for me and Sharon in our office. and then we've got ⁓ their office coming up. So it's like, okay, well, how are we gonna make sure that we're gonna get those people to come and work for me as well? Yeah. ⁓ and so that property manager can always tick along. Yes. That's kind of what I'd like to see happen. I'd like to have a and I do have currently a whole group of young women. Yeah. who are fully empowered to do well and learn as much as they can and do all their training so that, you know, when I'm ready to retire there's others doing it and hopefully carry on the little bird. Absolut branding. Yeah.
speaker-0: So with with the mind of ⁓ putting ourselves in the generation A Yeah, what what what what do we need to do as leaders? What does that look like?
speaker-1: A. I think it's A. Yeah, I'm trying to figure that out. Make make sure that I'm above it a bit. But I mean my my two girls that help me with that a lot. Yeah. ⁓ and and sometimes they're like, Mum, that is so cringe. You cannot say that. Or they they say to me, ⁓ you're such a boomer. ⁓ And ⁓ the way I look at my phone and and do things and they're like, ⁓ don't do that. Don't do that, Mum. ⁓ So and I think it's just staying relevant to those generational you know, trends. ⁓ so that people are not looking at the brand and going, ⁓ that's so old.
speaker-0: Yeah. So do we need to drop some like slang into our emails? Like another word. Now we sound old.
speaker-1: I don't know. Totally my daughter's watch is and go, ⁓ my god, my couple of sh I believe you did Yeah, I think it's just keeping up with ⁓ you know, the evolving nature of how, you know, the tech generation ⁓ are gonna be ⁓ wanting to work. Yeah. Not everyone's gonna be wanting to work the same way.
speaker-0: But I'm right here with you. But it's an interesting point 'cause it's not just our team members, it's also our clients. Absolutely. Our tenants and our owners. So how are we communicating with them in a way that resonates and is relevant and meaningful because long emails are probably not going to be well.
speaker-1: received. No. And I mean, I don't know about you, but I get so many chat ⁓ responses to emails. It's crazy. I got one the other day saying I I decided to go with another agent and it was Chat GBT and I'm like, wow, you couldn't even be bothered to write write my rejection.
speaker-0: I mean it's a bit of a giveaway when it's like, let me know if you want me to make this sound nicer and they copy that by mistake. Yeah. They're my favorite.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean and that's, you know, part of the challenges of moving forward with any business and that is dealing with, you know, ⁓ and ar and having confrontation with AI. Yeah. ⁓ we've had a recent tribunal long case. Yeah. It was pretty basic but it was dragged on for a very long time and it was because, you know, if you don't tell AI that you want to actually resolve the problem, it'll just keep going. And this is what the What's happening? Yeah. So it was just going on and on and on and on with no end. It's like, hey, can you just tell chat that you want to wrap this up? I come here.
speaker-0: Give me an outcome. Let's have an Here's a prompt for Chat GPT.
speaker-1: ⁓ but yeah, this is this is the some of the challenges.
speaker-0: How do you think, ⁓ from a property management lens with AI, how do you think, you know, crystal ball, what the next six to twelve months as our industry looks like, what do you think the biggest shifts will be?
speaker-1: Well, I've seen and heard, you know, AI answering phones. ⁓ I mean, even if you want to book a restaurant, you talk to an AI. ⁓ and look, I I probably a little bit old school in that regard. Like it's not something that I'm about. Like it's not it's it's like offshoring. Like it's something that I won't do or and have not done. Yeah. ⁓ but it's there. So I guess it just depends on how, you know, each business wants to take it on. But for Little Bird, you know, AI is just there to potentially assist but not drive. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. So the team, I know they use it. Yeah. And that's fine. I have no issue with that. I mean it's built into Outlook. Yeah, exactly. It's but built into property me. Yeah. ⁓ but it's not it it I and we talk about this a lot in the office. It's not the driver. Yeah.
speaker-0: Smart.
speaker-1: ⁓ yes, okay, so it can give you some ideas and help you fluff something or whatever. Yeah. But at the end of the day, it's you know, you need to be authentic to be a property manager. Great. And it and that's just not Absolutely.
speaker-0: And you can tell when someone's used AI. Yeah, it's a completely different voice.
speaker-1: It just doesn't sound like you. No. I mean I AI chat ⁓ responded to my daughter once and she was like, I can't believe you chat And I was like, Yeah, okay, listen learn. Yeah, love it. but yeah, so it's it's it's there to assist. Yeah, I think. And if ever ⁓ you know, and my team that's what I'll be sort of how I'll be playing it. Yeah. ⁓ it's not driving it though. Yeah.
speaker-0: Challenge. I'd like to think AI will enable us to remove the repetitive, predictable, mundane tasks from the role, which will free up if people use offshore, free up offshore to be upskilled to do what then becomes the lower level tasks of PM. To free up the PM to really focus on relationships. Like I'd love if we see that evolution. And for those that aren't using offshore, we skip that bit and instead the PM is straight away in that position. Yeah. Because I think when we talk about the downward pressure on fees and increasingly complex legislation, the relationship piece is probably more relevant and critical, I think, than ever.
speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely. Like you you know, there will you can't take the person out of property management because there's other people involved. ⁓ and even I mean, like I said, I'm not I'm not a huge fan of offshoring. Yeah. ⁓ because I think it's important that the property managers are across what the client is gonna want. Yeah. You know, when there's gaps, when it's like, well, you know, you've got someone overseas answering e it's obvious as well. You know, and there's gaps because they don't actually know, they're just following a checklist of what to do. ⁓ I just think that's really impersonal. I'm not a fan and I I I it has its place and I get it. but it's also I think important for the property manager to know everything that's going on and also understand the client better. Yeah. And they can do they can't do that when someone else is doing part of the job. Yeah.
speaker-0: That makes perfect sense. It's it's all about building trust in those touch points.
speaker-1: Yeah. And even the mundane tasks, they have a place and you know, the client appreciates it if you're the one sending the let the statement. Yeah. Yeah. You know, just little things. ⁓ and then know that they're there and they're they're listening. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. ⁓ talk to me about your values.
speaker-1: Probably oof honesty. Yeah. I mean, probably a bit boring, but not at all. ⁓ hundred percent couldn't couldn't mislead or lie or embellish if I tried. Just not in me. Yeah. ⁓ and I lead that way. and integrity, you know, as well. I guess I always wanna do the best. Yeah. And I wanna be the best as well. ⁓ and that's changed, be the best has changed over the years. You know, you obviously want to be the best mum and the best wife and you know, you want to be the best property manager. And now it's more about me being the best at building the team. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ and making them feel like they can they can then do that themselves.
speaker-0: I love that. And so what does I guess success look like like in the next two, three years at Little Bird, what does success look like for you?
speaker-1: ⁓ I think it's probably growing the team and like empowering them even more. Like we've got a couple of newbies that have just started. ⁓ so you know that first two years is really critical learning for them. Yeah. And it's make or break. Yeah. ⁓ so I'd love to see them really, you know, ⁓ lock in. Yeah. ⁓ and then obviously bring in some new ones as well. Great. Yeah, and just keep I'm always
speaker-0: Yeah. So sustainable success.
speaker-1: one to two people ahead of what's required. Smart. ⁓ you know, and I think you need to be. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. We spoke in the last episode of collab with the girls from Someday, Grace and Jess, and talking about ⁓ recruiting before you need people. Because you get people on leave, you get people sick, you get people leaving. ⁓ and having that redundancy I think's critical to ensure culture continues.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And you just can't have that downtime. There's just no gaps for it. And and you know, the industry or the the the role is pretty unforgiving. Yeah. You know, you miss one inspection, it's not good. No. Like there's so many repercussions from that. ⁓ so I think having more staff is way better. Smart. I mean from a dollar perspective it's probably, you know, not overly, you know. Sure. But it's not it's not all about that. Yeah.
speaker-0: If you look that in isolation, absolutely. If you look at it hilarious.
speaker-1: 'Cause it 'cause it adds a pressure on the team. Someone leaves and they're managing more properties and they're there's more problems and everyone's a bit more stressed, it's just not
speaker-0: Compounds, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I'd rather pay the extra up front and absolutely the rest. ⁓ what are you most proud of in your career?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Obviously Little Bird, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of how it's evolved and grown and I'm really proud of the people that are in it. Yeah. You know, most of them have started from scratch and watching them now just navigate the the job and you know the problems that can come up ⁓ pretty much independently is I'm really proud of that.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Congratulations. Thank you. That's amazing. ⁓ my last question for you, bit of a bit of a deep question, but ⁓ you talked earlier about the the future and retirement and being able to have the business continue on successfully. What what I mean, you've been in the industry twenty-three
speaker-1: ⁓ I think it's like twenty five. Twenty five years. So well actually no wait, twenty three years. Twenty seven when I started, I'm fifty now, so yeah.
speaker-0: Having been in the industry for twenty three years and done lots of remarkable, amazing things and continuing to do those things, when you at some stage in the future do step away from it and retire and spend more time in the maldives, ⁓ what legacy do you hope to leave behind for your team in the industry? I know, sorry. I did pre frame that it was deep. Yeah, but I'm curious.
speaker-1: I know that's so deep. Little Bird in itself is its own thing outside of me. Yeah. That's how I feel. Like I don't look at L Little Bird as being about Heidi Rosen. Little Bird is about making property management stand on its own and be successful in its own right. ⁓ so I guess that's a legacy enough. Yeah. ⁓ it's a huge legacy. Ra rather than it being about me, it's more about that. That that can be that can be done. Yeah. Great answer. Does that sense? Yep.
speaker-0: makes perfect sense. And you should be so proud of that. Like as I've said, ⁓ just in awe of your business and what you've achieved and the team that you've built. And I think I'm so pleased that we have operators like you in Canberra and in the industry because it just lifts the standard for the rest of us.
speaker-1: Yeah, we tr I try and like I said, it's just something I've always had a passion about about and I'm always willing to help others and you know, ever there's just running run your own race is sort of some advice.
speaker-0: Good advice. Well thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you. Hopefully it wasn't too painful.
speaker-1: Okay. No, it was just like it just ignore the cameras. Exactly. I hope I got you got some stuff out of it. Yeah.
speaker-0: Yeah, and the microphone. I mean that was great.
