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The more beneficial way of managing employees is obviously to have more of an ongoing conversation with them, to identify and recognize those accolades when they happen, and also address the things that require constructive feedback at the time so that it doesn't, one, it doesn't build up.
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Two, they learn and they grow and they don't make those mistakes again.
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And three, you have much more of an ongoing conversation.
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So performance reviews should really just be the collection of all the things that you've talked about all year.
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It should never be a surprise and it should genuinely reflect things that actually happened in the year and not just a superficial paperwork job to get off your desk and move on.
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Workplace law is complex and constantly changing.
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It can be hard to keep up, and the risk of getting it wrong can be costly for businesses.
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The Coffee and Law Podcast is here to help HR professionals and employers stay informed.
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We'll cover what's changing and how to navigate real workplace situations and everyday people decisions.
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So grab your favorite warm drink and join us for engaging practical and educational conversations with top experts in workplace and employment law.
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This podcast provides high-level general information.
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The perspectives shared by our guests are for educational purposes and do not constitute legal advice.
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If you have a specific question or concern, please consult a qualified lawyer.
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Hi everyone, it's Amy Davies, founder and CEO of First30, and also your Coffee in Law podcast host here to remind you that First 30 offers career transition and outplacement services.
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So if you have terminations and layouts coming up, this is a really good way to mitigate risk to your business and help your exiting employees recover from the job loss and get back to work.
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You can find out more information at www.first30ready.com forward slash outplacement, or you can reach out to me, Amy Amy, at first30ready.com.
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All of our programs include live coaching and a year of access.
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And in a tough job market, that can be very important.
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Now, back to our show.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to Coffee and Law.
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We have such a fun conversation today, and it's a timely one because performance reviews are coming up, and that's what we're going to be speaking about with our guests, Janine Liberatore.
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Have I got that right, Janine?
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You got that right, Amy.
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Nice to see you again.
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Yeah, it was such a beautiful name.
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But before we get started, I just wanted to give a shout out to HR Law Canada, who are our partners on this podcast.
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If you haven't checked out their articles, they've had some really interesting ones lately.
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So by all means, check them out.
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And I want to give a huge shout out and thank you to our producers, Storyphora, who always do such an amazing job that I get so many compliments on this show.
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So thank you to them.
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And with that said, I want to get on to our topic because Janine, I have so many questions for you.
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This is an amazing one that I think is, I remember seeing this cartoon once uh where there was a manager out on a ledge of a building and another woman out like hiding.
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Like they had gone to that length to go out onto outside.
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And it was because it was about it was it was their performance review time.
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And it's like the sentiment being that everyone dislikes performance reviews.
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That's for sure.
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Yes.
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Yeah, they're they're much more complex and convoluted than we might think.
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Um, even in organizations where there is a lot of structure around them.
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So before we kick off on the topic, though, I really wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself to everyone and tell them a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
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Sure, thank you.
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So my name's Janine Liberatore.
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I have been a labor and employment lawyer for 20 years now.
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I just had my anniversary.
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And congratulations, happy anniversary.
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Thank you.
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I always feel like I'm one of the young lawyers, but uh when you get to 20 years, you're like, I guess I'm not a young lawyer anymore, but I feel young inside and activist.
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So it's I make up for it.
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So I started in one of the big firms as an articling student, and then I started a labor and employment firm with one of my mentors, and I was there for a few years.
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Then I went in-house for 10 years, which I think is a great experience because it taught me not only um the law, but it also taught me the inner workings of an organization.
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And I really got to understand how organizations work and what are the motivations behind a lot of management's decisions and all of the important things that they need to consider that we don't necessarily learn in the pearly white towers as lawyers that practice in law firms.
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After doing uh a stint in-house for 10 years at uh national organizations, I then have uh started my own law firm.
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I started one in the beginning of the pandemic, March 2nd, 2020.
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Um, and then I've started a new law firm that uh has been running for the last two years, and I represent employers predominantly.
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I do dabble a little bit with employees.
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I think it's great to continue to recognize the other side and understand the vulnerabilities of both sides.
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And so I do a little bit of employee, but predominantly I represent many um employers across Canada, um, all varying sizes, all varying shapes, types, not for profits.
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And uh I love the law.
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I love labor and employment.
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I'm so glad that it's something that I fell into because employees do the darndest things, and it is always an interesting practice.
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And I love problem solving and finding that clear path to the best, to the best result in the most efficient way.
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So I love it and uh I'm never a dull moment, I bet.
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And I want to point out one key thing you said there uh having labor law and employment law specialization.
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That is not always the case.
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So that's uh a nice differentiator as well for you.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's uh it and it comes with different uh it comes with different strategies, but essentially it at the end of the day, it's the employment relationship and what happens in it.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Okay, well, thank you for sharing that.
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I'm I'm sure that will be helpful to our audience.
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And as a reminder, Janine's information will be in the show notes.
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If you're looking for a lawyer, um, you can definitely reach out to her.
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Now, my very first question on this topic, Janine, is are performance reviews required by law for employers to conduct?
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They're not required by law.
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They're a good idea, but they're different, they're not required by law.
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Why they're a good idea is because there's many reasons why they're a good idea.
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Number one, it provides understanding and setting expectations for employees so that they know how they're doing, because often they don't get a lot of feedback.
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And so this is an opportunity once a year, if it's only once a year, but it's once a year where you can really sit down and have a more formalized process of understanding how have you been how have you been performing?
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Because we all have our own ways of believing how we're performing, but we're not necessarily understanding what those external factors are and how other people are viewing our performance as well.
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So it can be helpful.
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It's also very helpful when it comes to the end of the relationship.
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Often when people decide to terminate people's employment, it comes as a surprise, it comes as a shock.
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But if we've been doing good performance reviews leading up to that, then it might not be so much of a shock that they weren't really performing up to expectations.
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And then there's also another reason because in those termination decisions, sometimes if they don't really understand why they were they were terminated, then the first thing that they look to is, well, perhaps it was because I was of a specific gender or specific sexuality, or perhaps it was because of the color of my skin.
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And so then they start questioning whether it was for discriminatory reasons.
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And then it's helpful for employers to say, well, no, actually, it had everything to do with your performance.
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Look at these performance reviews that we've done with you over the past years.
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We've talked to you about these things, we're not seeing that improvement.
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And so we're we've decided to go in a different direction.
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And so it's often used as a defense when we're trying to explain the reasons, even in a without cause termination.
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It's helpful for explaining the reasons why we've made the decisions that we've made.
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Yeah, and it's just a form of documentation that can be helpful to everyone.
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It is certainly right.
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Yes, yes, at least part of the documentation.
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Yes.
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Yes, yeah.
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Well, the other question I had was now you said that they're not required, but they're advisable.
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Um, what about companies?
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Because I've worked for several organizations that tie your performance review to your merit increase and your bonus.
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So, how does it work in that situation?
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Is the employer then obligated to provide performance reviews on an annual basis to justify the numbers?
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Again, no, helpful, yes, but not mandatory.
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It is very helpful though, because if we can, you have to show how you've quantified why you've given them the individual multiplier that you've identified, whether they meet expectations, they haven't met expectations, uh, require improvement, all of those things.
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Ideally, we want to ground it in some documentation that has been brought to the employee's attention.
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And a performance review is a great way of doing that.
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We never want things to come as a surprise.
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And so having that documentation is very helpful to justify the decisions that management has to make when they're making those difficult decisions of how to divvy up the pie of bonus amounts that they have to share amongst the group.
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The other thing that we have happened, and I know this is the case for a lot of businesses when it comes to uh performance reviews and bonuses, et cetera.
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There's only you you mentioned a pot of money.
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There is a pot of money.
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Um and so you have to divide it up in a way that amounts equals the amount that you have.
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Over the years, I've and I've been in a manager myself, having to um navigate this type of situation as well.
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The companies will often let you know as a manager that you can only dole out a certain amount of fours and threes and twos, and you know, well, they're more concerned about the ones at the top, and let's face it.
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Um that messaging often gets communicated to employees.
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Uh, most employees know there's that bell curve.
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You and I were talking about it before we we started the recording.
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Tell us a little bit more about how that works and is there any legal implications for employers that they should consider, especially when it becomes common knowledge in an organization?
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Yeah.
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And what do you do when you have someone who's a top performer and you're giving them a three and you're giving someone who's performing equally a four because you had a four for them and you didn't have a three.
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Or I'm sorry, you had a four for them, and so you have to give the other person a three.
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So these are some of those business realities that are hard for employees often to understand, but it is what it is, right?
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They have a set pot of money,$100,000, let's say it's a large corporation, and they have to divvy it up based on on a number of factors.
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Of course, we have the corporate multipliers as well, but they have to explain to it, they have to only give out so many fives and fours and threes and things like that to justify how they're um how to divvy up the money.
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And so there again, there's no legal requirements.
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But what we need to think about is are we giving all of the fours and fives to the men's, the men of the organization?
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And so there's not necessarily legal requirements, but from an overall perspective, it should be a balanced distribution and it shouldn't be just recognizing certain things, because that's when we have questions of human rights allegations as well.
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You know, only the white men have were received the fives this year.
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Why are all of them being recognized yet?
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All of the women are not being recognized.
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So there are no legal requirements necessarily, but we do need to ensure that we are applying our policies consistently and making decisions based on merits alone and not necessarily on an enumerated ground.
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When I say enumerated ground, I'm talking about race, religion, gender.
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So again, there's no legal mandatory requirements, but there are contextual considerations that you need to always look into.
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And so when managers are sharing this information that they only have so many fours and only so many threes to give out, sometimes it makes it gives mixed messages to the employees.
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And I've lived in those cultures myself where everybody gets a quality, you know, like everyone gets the same mark because that's really what they have.
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And they only a few get in an exceptional, which is a down is a detriment actually to your organization.
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And so it's not helpful when managers say those things to their employees because it makes everyone be like, well, we're all gonna be quality here.
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So like what's the even, what's the point of this process?
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You know, this is really just a paper pushing process.
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And as soon as we get a culture like that, then the usefulness of performance reviews are gone.
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Because really it's it's intended to set clear expectations, provide employees with support to uh better their better their performance, better their careers, show career succession planning and things like that.
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And so when we start getting into a culture where everybody gets equality, then we're really losing the benefit of performance reviews.
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So they they need to mean more.
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I think another thing, and I might be stealing away here, Amy, running with the train, but you know, another problem that we often have is that it is a paper pushing exercise for everybody.
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And management doesn't really put the time in to think about what do I really want to say to this employee?
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What really was good things this year?
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What are things that I want to talk to them about, instead of just being like, yep, quality and pushing them through, because that's never helpful.
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I've been in so many situations where you know it comes time for them to make a decision on who's gonna be eliminated.
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You've got five people in a position, someone's got to go, and everybody has a quality rating.
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And so that's not very helpful to us, you know.
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Like, why did we choose this person over that person?
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They all had a quality rating.
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Oh, well, they were actually doing very badly and they were really not performing well.
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And I had all of these issues, and I'm like, let's see the performance reviews.
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And here they come, they're all quality.
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And I'm like, well, clearly you haven't done your work because if they were such an issue, then why wasn't it captured in the performance review?
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And why weren't we having honest conversations with the employee so that they were not surprised when one position was eliminated and they were the one that was impacted.
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And we're, you know, a lot of us can be conflict averse and will avoid having the difficult conversations as much as possible.
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And you were talking about telling employees that you only have a certain amount and you said it becomes confusing, right?
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Because maybe I am my rating should have been a three, but my manager doesn't want me to feel like that, right?
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So they tell me that so that we don't have to have a difficult conversation when the difficult conversation could be actually better for everyone.
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And I would just think I would throw out some caution because I I would say on the surface, you and I have a lot in common, right?
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Like same age, we're both business owners, we both have dogs, both women.
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So if we work together and you manage me, then you might just feel closer to me.
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Um, you know, we know from research over decades that we tend to feel closer to people we have things, maybe superficial things in common with.
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And I'm sure that that can get in the way if you have a situation where an employee has an issue either with their performance review or being terminated.
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Um, and they can call out these uh issues really easily that I'm sure can impact the case that's before a judge, for instance.
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And that, and you know, and it's a good point, yes.
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And this is where HR's job is really to educate management and to really make the performance review process more fulsome and really educate them on identifying things, taking time to think about the things that you actually want to talk to them about.
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Because often this happens at the end of the year, and management has eight million or other other things on their plate to do.
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And oh, I just need to get these performance reviews done.
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Yep, yep, yep, done.
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Poof, off, off they go.
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But really, that's not benefiting anyone.
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And so HR's job is to get in there and really take the time to educate them on the importance of having those thoughtful considerations before completing the documentation so that it actually has some meaning for everyone involved.
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And there's often I find that there's a standardized process within an organization because it's through some form of platform or HRAS.
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However, how it is conducted can be very different.
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Um, and so maybe it really helps if HR doesn't just talk about here's the technology we use and here's the questions we rate.
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Um, and it's more about how when do we meet with an employee?
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How do we approach the conversation?
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How do we collect feedback on their performance?
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What do we ask them to bring?
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I've always suggested to people, I wrote a book about having a successful career in what I call a re-org world where we're constantly losing and changing our jobs.
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And in that book, I talk about having a happy file as an employee, right?
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And HR could coach their um their business partners to do this.
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In as a manager, you can have a happy file for each employee.
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Um, and maybe you have the opposite, right?
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Yeah, I love the happy file.
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It's it's a kind of fun idea.
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So that you, when you sit down with your manager, you have the evidence to suggest if you feel that you deserve a certain rating, you have the the evidence and the backup as to why.
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What have your stakeholders been sending to you that they might not have been sending to your leader?
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But I think it's a great idea.
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And I and I I I know myself as a manager, I I try to do that as well because the year is long and so many things happen all year long.
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And so all of a sudden, if you're trying to think of things at the end of the year, you can't remember all of those things.
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And so, you know, I try and do something along that line.
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I think I'll change it to my happy file going forward.
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But uh, I do try and take notes and I try and remember all of the great things and the things that weren't so great that we want to, you know, we want to improve.
00:19:52.400 --> 00:20:01.759
But performance reviews, the downside of performance reviews is that's just one snapshot at the end of the year, and it's hard to remember everything.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:20.640
The more beneficial way of managing employees is obviously to have more of an ongoing conversation with them, to identify and recognize those accolades when they happen, and also address the things that require constructive feedback at the time so that it doesn't, one, it doesn't build up.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.640
Two, they learn and they grow and they don't make those mistakes again.
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And three, you have much more of an ongoing conversation.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:34.480
So performance reviews should really just be the collection of all the things that you've talked about all year.
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It should never be a surprise and it should genuinely reflect things that actually happened in the year and not just a superficial paperwork job to get off your desk and move on.
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Outplacement and career transition support make a real difference for employees experiencing terminations or layoffs.
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:59.839
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00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:27.920
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00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:48.160
Yeah, as a manager, I always had a standardized, it sounds really boring, Janine, but I did have a standardized one-to-one template that every time, like every week or two weeks when I met with my employees, I would have a list of questions that we would go through together about their projects and anything, any barriers to completion.
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.720
And then we had a section on constructive feedback, and that can go both ways.
00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:53.039
Yeah.
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:57.039
So they could give me constructive feedback, I could give them some constructive feedback.
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.759
It introduces it and it normalizes it because it happens.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.640
Happens every single time that you meet with them.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.880
But yeah, I think making sure that they're prepared and doing things like stay interviews.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:16.559
We talk a lot about exit interviews, but stay interviews can be a really good way to get a pulse of where your employees are and then also give them the expectation of what to expect.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:22.559
But like a shout out to anyone listening to this who's a lot of people who listen are also employees.
00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:29.279
So one big frustration I think management has is someone sits down at their performance review and they say they want a promotion.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:35.279
I want to be uh their director or manager, they want to be a senior manager or director, let's say.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:38.240
That's kind of too late to start that conversation.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:49.440
So the preparation, if you want to be a director and you're a manager or senior manager, have that conversation this year in order for it to happen next year.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.200
Because then your manager can give you those challenges and everything.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.200
It's putting the bug in their ear, right?
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:05.759
Because if if you want to see succession planning and you want to have and develop your career within an organization, you've got to show that you want it, you're interested in those things.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.039
And so having those open dialogues are important.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:14.720
But one of the streams that I'm I see on both sides for everyone is document everything.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.880
Always document those conversations.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:24.480
Because again, so many times when I when I have it, when I have a file and they want to terminate someone, and I'm like, well, where's the documentation?
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.680
What you're telling me about.
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:27.680
Oh, we've had lots of struggles with this employee.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.359
Great, let's see the documentation.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
Let's did you did you keep a journal?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.920
Did you write down every time you met with them and what were the things that they were struggling with?
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:37.599
Were their email correspondence?
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.960
Show me something.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:40.559
And then it's like, well, we have nothing.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.359
And you're like, oh, that's not so helpful.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.839
So it's, you know, documenting everything is a very important strategy.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.960
And it's, you know, like one of the themes that I talk a lot about is HR knows these things.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:00.480
We, you know, HR, HR professionals are trained on this, but it does, it's management that really needs to understand things.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:19.119
And it's management that needs to be the ones that are educated the most on how best to manage people and set those expectations early and document it so that you have something to refer back to, not just in this case of a termination, but when they come to you and say, I want to be promoted to a director.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.880
Well, Laura, that's wonderful that you want to be promoted to a director.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.920
However, we've talked over the last few, you know, the last few months that you really need to work on this, that, and the other.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:35.359
And, you know, if you if you want to be a director, then here's the pathway for you to get there.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.359
But remember all the things that we've talked about.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:49.680
Because if you do get passed up, well, they're not going to say it, but you know, like if they do get passed up for that director role, notwithstanding the fact that they said that they were interested in it, it should be supported with the reasons why.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.079
Why why did Sally get it instead of Laura?
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:58.960
Well, Sally, Sally achieved on these projects and she met she exceeded expectations on deadlines and she did all of these things.
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:03.759
Whereas with you, Laura, we've been talking about missing deadlines for quite a few months now.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.799
And we needed someone that we knew could get the job done, right?
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.119
So having that documentation allows, you know, an understanding from both sides.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:24.319
Because again, I think I already said it, but surprises are is in a perfect illustration of where management and ultimately HR are failing, because it should never be a surprise.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:29.279
All of this stuff should be talked about frequently so that it's not a surprise at the end.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:31.519
They should be like, okay, yeah, I know I was late.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.240
I was always late, and yeah, I missed a ton of deadlines.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.640
You know, like and they talk to me about that.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:44.000
And I can't, you know, I might on the outside say that everything I was perfect and I should have gotten the role, but inside I know, darn it.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.279
You know, he talked to me a lot of times about missing those deadlines.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.920
So you know, like surprise is never good.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.359
No, it isn't good.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:56.319
What about um if someone wants to contest their performance review?
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:12.880
Do you think would you recommend to companies that they have they're set up to take when someone has a genuine issue with their performance review, that they have a process for someone saying, Hey, I was rated this, but I think I should have been rated this.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:13.920
Here is why.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.359
And I want to sort of contest my rating.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.880
That's some dangerous territories, to be honest, right?
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:27.519
Because uh the squeaky wheel, in my experience, the squeaky wheel rarely gets the oil, it usually gets the boot.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:40.079
So it's it's a very challenging thing to do in the sense that it should happen during the conversation when they present the performance review um the the scores.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.640
It should really happen at that point and identify those pieces that um you maybe dispute.
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:48.559
Well, what do you mean I'm dismissing deadlines?
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:50.160
Look at all these deadlines that I did make.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.880
What are you talking about?
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.480
Which deadlines are you talking about?
00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:02.799
So there it it can, they can dispute it and it should happen during those conversations, but it should be done very delicately in the sense that they don't want it to be a conflict.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.160
Instead, they want it to be a constructive discussion.
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:21.039
Help me understand what deadlines you know you think I've been missing, but you don't want it to be a like a conflict, because if you if they get into a conflict with their manager, then it uh denigrates the relationship as opposed to improves it.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.200
So you've got to be careful about that.
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:28.240
But to answer your question, do they need a formal way of appealing a review?
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.480
No, that's not probably something that you want to open the door to, but employees do have ways of disputing a performance review.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.240
Most often it's as a formalized complaint, right?
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:46.000
I think that um my performance review is inappropriate, and these are the reasons why.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:50.079
And it it, you know, they informally they can always bring those things to HR.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:28:00.640
So you don't need a structured appeal route for preferred performance reviews because I think that almost opens the door to for people to challenge it all the time.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:06.319
So we don't want to floodgate here, but there are informal ways that people can dispute them.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.920
And I think it starts with having that conversation with the manager.
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:22.000
And if the employee feels like it's falling on deaf ears, then that's when they engage HR to navigate the the difference of opinion when it comes to their performance.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:29.039
So yeah, it's like the question is like how to make how to make your performance reviews last all year, not just a few weeks.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:29.599
Yeah.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:30.000
Yeah.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:35.359
If you open up that process, you know, we is there anything else you want to say on this topic?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.839
Because I want to talk to you about spill the tea, and I have something I want to tell you too.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.960
Um no, I think that performance reviews are valuable.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.480
Um, I we didn't talk about federally regulated organizations.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:53.119
Federally regulated organizations are performance reviews are even more important.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:29:14.000
So that's it's a small group of employers, but you know, communication and transportation across Canada and things like that, those federally regulated, the banks, the federally regulated organizations, performance reviews are even more important because in the federal, the Canada labor code, um, there's no without cause terminations.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:21.599
There has to be, it has to be either a job elimination or um or it has to be for cause.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.039
And so in those instances, there's a lot of job eliminations.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:36.960
And that was what I was talking about a little bit at the beginning, which is they have to prove why the person that was impacted was the correct and reasonable person to be impacted in that decision.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:44.720
And the best way that we have to do that is to collect our performance reviews over the past years to see how everyone was ranking.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:51.920
And then it should be clear that the person that was being ranked the lowest is the one that should be impacted in those decisions.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.480
So performance reviews shouldn't just be annual.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:30:10.400
I think that they should be something that's much more consistent, and that's just the culminating document at the end of the year that is supported by all of those other conversations that have been happening throughout the year, so that it makes sense to the employee and it's not a surprise.
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:22.319
And it's it actually has concrete, helpful things for them to learn what needs improvement, what are those expectations, and what are the structures that we can put in place to help them get better.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.519
As you were speaking, Janine, about we were talking about all this.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:30.319
I remember because we're gonna go into spill the tea and I have a quick little spill the tea, and then I want to hear yours.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.359
Um, I was we had in one organization I worked in, we had 360s before we had our reviews.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:42.079
So by that I mean we had other people feedback on us to our manager.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.960
And of course, I did a lot of research in the organizations.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.039
Something went wrong.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:58.319
And anyway, all of mine were submitted, and I had several people actually give feedback, and then one person gave me like super low scores all the way through.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.440
Like the other ones were high, and this is one person.
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:23.599
So if you imagine eight, and then this one, and we worked really closely together, and I actually thought we were kind of friends, and I was shocked because somehow, I guess because of my role, I was the the answers, everyone's answers came and I saw them, and it was such a and you know their name as well, like they they actually knew exactly who it was.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:28.799
Yes, it was just a mistake, it was just a technical issue.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.079
It wasn't no one was searching for anything or anything like that.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.640
And what a wake-up call to me.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:39.359
It was such a surprise to get that back, and then I'd forgotten all about it.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.880
And then as we were talking about this, I was like, that was such an odd experience.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:52.799
Fortunately, I had a really great relationship with my manager, and I think she she knew maybe more than I did that underneath it there was a little bit of friction because we had similar roles.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.960
Um, but anyway, it was just such an eye-opener, and that's all kind of like the water cooler after that.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.920
You're like, hey, thought we were friends, guess not.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:02.640
I know.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.759
Well, you know what?
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:10.960
I just made the decision that I'm gonna just be a professional and for pretend it never happened and just move on.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.039
And we still had some laughs and got along and had to work together.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.400
That that those things happened, but awkward.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.200
Now I want to hear your spill the tea.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:36.799
Well, I've heard a lot of stories when it comes to performance reviews, and I was working with one client, and I you can just picture that it's a big, it's like a big room full of managers, and they're all jockeying to get that part of the purse for their employees.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.400
And so there's a lot of advocacy that happens in the room, right?
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:48.079
Because they're looking for the fives, they're looking for the fours, because they want to give their employees more money and give them recognition over other employees.
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.119
And then it's a reflection on the manager, too, right?
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:58.319
Because the manager, the more fours and fives they have, the better they look too, to their leaders, right?
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.119
Yes.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:09.759
And and they have to go back to their employees, explain the ratings that they ultimately were able to achieve for each of them, and explain why they're only getting so much of a bonus.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:11.839
And back to those conversations before, right?
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:16.400
You know, it's like, well, you know, we have to give everyone qualities because we only have a few.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:37.839
But I remember one time where there was all that jockey in that meeting to decide who was getting allocated what, and the advocacy was strong, and there was a misunderstanding between the managers because the one manager was in another province, but but their direct reports were in it in a different province.
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:44.640
And a manager in that province advocating for his employees was trying to push the other ones down.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.640
He's like, Well, they're never in the office and they're and they're never here.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:49.839
And it's like, where are they?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.599
Are they even doing any work here?
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:00.079
And when they shared that conversation with the employee, it was like, well, you had assigned them to two different locations and they were at the other location.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.559
And so there was a lot of misunderstanding when it came to the ratings that were applied.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:23.840
I don't know how tea that is, but it's a story of you know, really understanding what's going on and the boiler room that they're in when they're fighting for these, for these performance review ratings, and then having to explain it to the employee as to why they got the bit of the lower one and didn't get the exceptional.
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.280
And in those instances, you know, the employee raised it and said, Well, look, you know, you would assign me to two different locations.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.199
Obviously, I wasn't in that location because you'd assign me to the other one.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:37.119
So of course I wasn't there, and of course that manager wouldn't have had oversight.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.280
And it and that's where those miscommunications can sometimes come into place.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.880
And it just so happened that that employee was also on a maternity leave.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:51.920
So then it's like, well, you know, is this a is this a case of assigning a lower rating to someone that's not in the office?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:07.039
And though those were the questions that were raised by the employee that, you know, were live questions that they had to grapple with and and come to a better understanding on how we do these processes to ensure that everyone is is fairly and equitably evaluated.
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.159
Do you know what happened?
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:09.840
Absolutely nothing.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:10.880
Absolutely nothing.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:13.039
It falls on deaf ears half the time.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.639
But that's the way it goes, right?
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:24.320
And so, you know, like it's does does the the squeaky wheel get some oil in the sense of more bonus, or is it just swept under the rug like what you kind of talked about?
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:32.719
And everyone puts, you know, takes a stiff upper lip and moves on, and you know, and yeah, and that's how you can lose employees too, right?
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.840
So, because sometimes those things put a bad taste in their mouth.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:47.760
So yeah, and you know, when we do our outplacement coaching with our participants who are looking for work in there, they some of them have a specific idea of what kind of manager they want.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.559
It's like sometimes even if you have a nice manager, it's not good enough.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.519
Like we always talk about avoiding toxic managers.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:07.199
You want a manager that has the ear of the other leaders in the organization, has some, and so that they can make the persuasive case as well in these types of situations.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:20.159
And that's where it kind of starts to impact you as an employee, is when you don't have a manager that can make the case or one that might be nice but doesn't really take the time to understand what you're doing and where you are, right?
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.920
It's effective management, right?
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.079
It's a effective management, yes.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:28.719
No one wants a nice boss, no one wants a toxic boss, we want an effective manager.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:37.360
We we're not friends with our the managers are not friends with the employees, they're their managers, and so they always have to keep that hat on ultimately at the end of the day.
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.559
And and the effectiveness goes both ways, right?
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:58.880
It's advocating for your employees in that boiler room when trying to get that bonus payment based on performance reviews, but it's also ensuring that they're taking proactive steps throughout the year to set their employees up for success so that at the end of the year they are achieving those results and getting the bonuses.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.360
Because at the end of the day, it's retention, right?
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:09.360
Um, these performance reviews, if people aren't being recognized, if they're not getting the increases that they're looking for, and things like that, they're gonna leave.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.280
And there's so much out there about the cost of replacing an employee.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:19.119
So, you know, performance reviews can be a very detrimental thing if they're not done well.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:34.000
But if they if it's something that's incorporated throughout the year and it's really just a culminating document that captures everything that's already been talked about and and goals have already been set and things like that, then it helps employment relationships.
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:38.960
But if it's not done well, it's actually quite damaging for the relationships.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:42.880
Well, this has been an eye-opener, it's been wonderful.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:45.920
This is such an interesting topic.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:52.000
When we introduce the show, we say employment law is complex and constantly changing.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:38:03.760
Um, in this case, the complexity just shines through because it's a very complex issue that can have real consequences for an organization if they don't do it well.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:11.679
Um, Janine, I'm so grateful for you uh to you for spending your time with us today and sharing this information.
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:17.519
And I'll remind everyone that your information is in the show notes so they can get in touch with you.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.360
This only barely scratches the surface on your expertise.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.639
So um thank you again and everyone else.
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.559
Have a really great day, and we uh look forward to seeing you next time.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:18.800
The more beneficial way of managing employees is obviously to have more of an ongoing conversation with them, to identify and recognize those accolades when they happen, and also address the things that require constructive feedback at the time so that it doesn't, one, it doesn't build up.
00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.879
Two, they learn and they grow and they don't make those mistakes again.
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:26.320
And three, you have much more of an ongoing conversation.
00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:32.640
So performance reviews should really just be the collection of all the things that you've talked about all year.
00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:45.039
It should never be a surprise and it should genuinely reflect things that actually happened in the year and not just a superficial paperwork job to get off your desk and move on.
00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.479
Workplace law is complex and constantly changing.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:55.679
It can be hard to keep up, and the risk of getting it wrong can be costly for businesses.
00:00:55.920 --> 00:01:01.759
The Coffee and Law Podcast is here to help HR professionals and employers stay informed.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:08.879
We'll cover what's changing and how to navigate real workplace situations and everyday people decisions.
00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:19.280
So grab your favorite warm drink and join us for engaging practical and educational conversations with top experts in workplace and employment law.
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This podcast provides high-level general information.
00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:30.079
The perspectives shared by our guests are for educational purposes and do not constitute legal advice.
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If you have a specific question or concern, please consult a qualified lawyer.
00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:51.200
Hi everyone, it's Amy Davies, founder and CEO of First30, and also your Coffee in Law podcast host here to remind you that First 30 offers career transition and outplacement services.
00:01:51.439 --> 00:02:03.920
So if you have terminations and layouts coming up, this is a really good way to mitigate risk to your business and help your exiting employees recover from the job loss and get back to work.
00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:18.479
You can find out more information at www.first30ready.com forward slash outplacement, or you can reach out to me, Amy Amy, at first30ready.com.
00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:23.840
All of our programs include live coaching and a year of access.
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.360
And in a tough job market, that can be very important.
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:30.960
Now, back to our show.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to Coffee and Law.
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We have such a fun conversation today, and it's a timely one because performance reviews are coming up, and that's what we're going to be speaking about with our guests, Janine Liberatore.
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Have I got that right, Janine?
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You got that right, Amy.
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Nice to see you again.
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Yeah, it was such a beautiful name.
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But before we get started, I just wanted to give a shout out to HR Law Canada, who are our partners on this podcast.
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If you haven't checked out their articles, they've had some really interesting ones lately.
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So by all means, check them out.
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And I want to give a huge shout out and thank you to our producers, Storyphora, who always do such an amazing job that I get so many compliments on this show.
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So thank you to them.
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And with that said, I want to get on to our topic because Janine, I have so many questions for you.
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This is an amazing one that I think is, I remember seeing this cartoon once uh where there was a manager out on a ledge of a building and another woman out like hiding.
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Like they had gone to that length to go out onto outside.
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And it was because it was about it was it was their performance review time.
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And it's like the sentiment being that everyone dislikes performance reviews.
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That's for sure.
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Yes.
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Yeah, they're they're much more complex and convoluted than we might think.
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Um, even in organizations where there is a lot of structure around them.
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So before we kick off on the topic, though, I really wanted to give you a chance to introduce yourself to everyone and tell them a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
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Sure, thank you.
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So my name's Janine Liberatore.
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I have been a labor and employment lawyer for 20 years now.
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I just had my anniversary.
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And congratulations, happy anniversary.
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Thank you.
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I always feel like I'm one of the young lawyers, but uh when you get to 20 years, you're like, I guess I'm not a young lawyer anymore, but I feel young inside and activist.
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So it's I make up for it.
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So I started in one of the big firms as an articling student, and then I started a labor and employment firm with one of my mentors, and I was there for a few years.
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Then I went in-house for 10 years, which I think is a great experience because it taught me not only um the law, but it also taught me the inner workings of an organization.
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And I really got to understand how organizations work and what are the motivations behind a lot of management's decisions and all of the important things that they need to consider that we don't necessarily learn in the pearly white towers as lawyers that practice in law firms.
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After doing uh a stint in-house for 10 years at uh national organizations, I then have uh started my own law firm.
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I started one in the beginning of the pandemic, March 2nd, 2020.
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Um, and then I've started a new law firm that uh has been running for the last two years, and I represent employers predominantly.
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I do dabble a little bit with employees.
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I think it's great to continue to recognize the other side and understand the vulnerabilities of both sides.
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And so I do a little bit of employee, but predominantly I represent many um employers across Canada, um, all varying sizes, all varying shapes, types, not for profits.
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And uh I love the law.
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I love labor and employment.
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I'm so glad that it's something that I fell into because employees do the darndest things, and it is always an interesting practice.
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And I love problem solving and finding that clear path to the best, to the best result in the most efficient way.
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So I love it and uh I'm never a dull moment, I bet.
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And I want to point out one key thing you said there uh having labor law and employment law specialization.
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That is not always the case.
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So that's uh a nice differentiator as well for you.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It's uh it and it comes with different uh it comes with different strategies, but essentially it at the end of the day, it's the employment relationship and what happens in it.
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Yes, absolutely.
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Okay, well, thank you for sharing that.
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I'm I'm sure that will be helpful to our audience.
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And as a reminder, Janine's information will be in the show notes.
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If you're looking for a lawyer, um, you can definitely reach out to her.
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Now, my very first question on this topic, Janine, is are performance reviews required by law for employers to conduct?
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They're not required by law.
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They're a good idea, but they're different, they're not required by law.
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Why they're a good idea is because there's many reasons why they're a good idea.
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Number one, it provides understanding and setting expectations for employees so that they know how they're doing, because often they don't get a lot of feedback.
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And so this is an opportunity once a year, if it's only once a year, but it's once a year where you can really sit down and have a more formalized process of understanding how have you been how have you been performing?
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Because we all have our own ways of believing how we're performing, but we're not necessarily understanding what those external factors are and how other people are viewing our performance as well.
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So it can be helpful.
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It's also very helpful when it comes to the end of the relationship.
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Often when people decide to terminate people's employment, it comes as a surprise, it comes as a shock.
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But if we've been doing good performance reviews leading up to that, then it might not be so much of a shock that they weren't really performing up to expectations.
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And then there's also another reason because in those termination decisions, sometimes if they don't really understand why they were they were terminated, then the first thing that they look to is, well, perhaps it was because I was of a specific gender or specific sexuality, or perhaps it was because of the color of my skin.
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And so then they start questioning whether it was for discriminatory reasons.
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And then it's helpful for employers to say, well, no, actually, it had everything to do with your performance.
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Look at these performance reviews that we've done with you over the past years.
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We've talked to you about these things, we're not seeing that improvement.
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And so we're we've decided to go in a different direction.
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And so it's often used as a defense when we're trying to explain the reasons, even in a without cause termination.
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It's helpful for explaining the reasons why we've made the decisions that we've made.
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Yeah, and it's just a form of documentation that can be helpful to everyone.
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It is certainly right.
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Yes, yes, at least part of the documentation.
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Yes.
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Yes, yeah.
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Well, the other question I had was now you said that they're not required, but they're advisable.
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Um, what about companies?
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Because I've worked for several organizations that tie your performance review to your merit increase and your bonus.
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So, how does it work in that situation?
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Is the employer then obligated to provide performance reviews on an annual basis to justify the numbers?
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Again, no, helpful, yes, but not mandatory.
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It is very helpful though, because if we can, you have to show how you've quantified why you've given them the individual multiplier that you've identified, whether they meet expectations, they haven't met expectations, uh, require improvement, all of those things.
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Ideally, we want to ground it in some documentation that has been brought to the employee's attention.
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And a performance review is a great way of doing that.
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We never want things to come as a surprise.
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And so having that documentation is very helpful to justify the decisions that management has to make when they're making those difficult decisions of how to divvy up the pie of bonus amounts that they have to share amongst the group.
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The other thing that we have happened, and I know this is the case for a lot of businesses when it comes to uh performance reviews and bonuses, et cetera.
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There's only you you mentioned a pot of money.
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There is a pot of money.
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Um and so you have to divide it up in a way that amounts equals the amount that you have.
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Over the years, I've and I've been in a manager myself, having to um navigate this type of situation as well.
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The companies will often let you know as a manager that you can only dole out a certain amount of fours and threes and twos, and you know, well, they're more concerned about the ones at the top, and let's face it.
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Um that messaging often gets communicated to employees.
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Uh, most employees know there's that bell curve.
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You and I were talking about it before we we started the recording.
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Tell us a little bit more about how that works and is there any legal implications for employers that they should consider, especially when it becomes common knowledge in an organization?
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Yeah.
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And what do you do when you have someone who's a top performer and you're giving them a three and you're giving someone who's performing equally a four because you had a four for them and you didn't have a three.
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Or I'm sorry, you had a four for them, and so you have to give the other person a three.
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So these are some of those business realities that are hard for employees often to understand, but it is what it is, right?
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They have a set pot of money,$100,000, let's say it's a large corporation, and they have to divvy it up based on on a number of factors.
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Of course, we have the corporate multipliers as well, but they have to explain to it, they have to only give out so many fives and fours and threes and things like that to justify how they're um how to divvy up the money.
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And so there again, there's no legal requirements.
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But what we need to think about is are we giving all of the fours and fives to the men's, the men of the organization?
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And so there's not necessarily legal requirements, but from an overall perspective, it should be a balanced distribution and it shouldn't be just recognizing certain things, because that's when we have questions of human rights allegations as well.
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You know, only the white men have were received the fives this year.
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Why are all of them being recognized yet?
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All of the women are not being recognized.
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So there are no legal requirements necessarily, but we do need to ensure that we are applying our policies consistently and making decisions based on merits alone and not necessarily on an enumerated ground.
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When I say enumerated ground, I'm talking about race, religion, gender.
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So again, there's no legal mandatory requirements, but there are contextual considerations that you need to always look into.
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And so when managers are sharing this information that they only have so many fours and only so many threes to give out, sometimes it makes it gives mixed messages to the employees.
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And I've lived in those cultures myself where everybody gets a quality, you know, like everyone gets the same mark because that's really what they have.
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And they only a few get in an exceptional, which is a down is a detriment actually to your organization.
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And so it's not helpful when managers say those things to their employees because it makes everyone be like, well, we're all gonna be quality here.
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So like what's the even, what's the point of this process?
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You know, this is really just a paper pushing process.
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And as soon as we get a culture like that, then the usefulness of performance reviews are gone.
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Because really it's it's intended to set clear expectations, provide employees with support to uh better their better their performance, better their careers, show career succession planning and things like that.
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And so when we start getting into a culture where everybody gets equality, then we're really losing the benefit of performance reviews.
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So they they need to mean more.
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I think another thing, and I might be stealing away here, Amy, running with the train, but you know, another problem that we often have is that it is a paper pushing exercise for everybody.
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And management doesn't really put the time in to think about what do I really want to say to this employee?
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What really was good things this year?
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What are things that I want to talk to them about, instead of just being like, yep, quality and pushing them through, because that's never helpful.
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I've been in so many situations where you know it comes time for them to make a decision on who's gonna be eliminated.
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You've got five people in a position, someone's got to go, and everybody has a quality rating.
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And so that's not very helpful to us, you know.
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Like, why did we choose this person over that person?
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They all had a quality rating.
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Oh, well, they were actually doing very badly and they were really not performing well.
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And I had all of these issues, and I'm like, let's see the performance reviews.
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And here they come, they're all quality.
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And I'm like, well, clearly you haven't done your work because if they were such an issue, then why wasn't it captured in the performance review?
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And why weren't we having honest conversations with the employee so that they were not surprised when one position was eliminated and they were the one that was impacted.
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And we're, you know, a lot of us can be conflict averse and will avoid having the difficult conversations as much as possible.
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And you were talking about telling employees that you only have a certain amount and you said it becomes confusing, right?
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Because maybe I am my rating should have been a three, but my manager doesn't want me to feel like that, right?
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So they tell me that so that we don't have to have a difficult conversation when the difficult conversation could be actually better for everyone.
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And I would just think I would throw out some caution because I I would say on the surface, you and I have a lot in common, right?
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Like same age, we're both business owners, we both have dogs, both women.
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So if we work together and you manage me, then you might just feel closer to me.
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Um, you know, we know from research over decades that we tend to feel closer to people we have things, maybe superficial things in common with.
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And I'm sure that that can get in the way if you have a situation where an employee has an issue either with their performance review or being terminated.
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Um, and they can call out these uh issues really easily that I'm sure can impact the case that's before a judge, for instance.
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And that, and you know, and it's a good point, yes.
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And this is where HR's job is really to educate management and to really make the performance review process more fulsome and really educate them on identifying things, taking time to think about the things that you actually want to talk to them about.
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Because often this happens at the end of the year, and management has eight million or other other things on their plate to do.
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And oh, I just need to get these performance reviews done.
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Yep, yep, yep, done.
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Poof, off, off they go.
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But really, that's not benefiting anyone.
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And so HR's job is to get in there and really take the time to educate them on the importance of having those thoughtful considerations before completing the documentation so that it actually has some meaning for everyone involved.
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And there's often I find that there's a standardized process within an organization because it's through some form of platform or HRAS.
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However, how it is conducted can be very different.
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Um, and so maybe it really helps if HR doesn't just talk about here's the technology we use and here's the questions we rate.
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Um, and it's more about how when do we meet with an employee?
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How do we approach the conversation?
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How do we collect feedback on their performance?
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What do we ask them to bring?
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I've always suggested to people, I wrote a book about having a successful career in what I call a re-org world where we're constantly losing and changing our jobs.
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And in that book, I talk about having a happy file as an employee, right?
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And HR could coach their um their business partners to do this.
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In as a manager, you can have a happy file for each employee.
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Um, and maybe you have the opposite, right?
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Yeah, I love the happy file.
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It's it's a kind of fun idea.
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So that you, when you sit down with your manager, you have the evidence to suggest if you feel that you deserve a certain rating, you have the the evidence and the backup as to why.
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What have your stakeholders been sending to you that they might not have been sending to your leader?
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But I think it's a great idea.
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And I and I I I know myself as a manager, I I try to do that as well because the year is long and so many things happen all year long.
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And so all of a sudden, if you're trying to think of things at the end of the year, you can't remember all of those things.
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And so, you know, I try and do something along that line.
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I think I'll change it to my happy file going forward.
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But uh, I do try and take notes and I try and remember all of the great things and the things that weren't so great that we want to, you know, we want to improve.
00:19:52.400 --> 00:20:01.759
But performance reviews, the downside of performance reviews is that's just one snapshot at the end of the year, and it's hard to remember everything.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:20.640
The more beneficial way of managing employees is obviously to have more of an ongoing conversation with them, to identify and recognize those accolades when they happen, and also address the things that require constructive feedback at the time so that it doesn't, one, it doesn't build up.
00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:24.640
Two, they learn and they grow and they don't make those mistakes again.
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And three, you have much more of an ongoing conversation.
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:34.480
So performance reviews should really just be the collection of all the things that you've talked about all year.
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It should never be a surprise and it should genuinely reflect things that actually happened in the year and not just a superficial paperwork job to get off your desk and move on.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:54.240
Outplacement and career transition support make a real difference for employees experiencing terminations or layoffs.
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All of First30's outplacement programs include access to a live coach along with one year of access to our career transition portal, job search resources, and much more.
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You can find information about our programs and pricing at first30ready.com forward slash outplacement.
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Or reach out to us anytime at info at first30ready.com.
00:21:29.200 --> 00:21:48.160
Yeah, as a manager, I always had a standardized, it sounds really boring, Janine, but I did have a standardized one-to-one template that every time, like every week or two weeks when I met with my employees, I would have a list of questions that we would go through together about their projects and anything, any barriers to completion.
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And then we had a section on constructive feedback, and that can go both ways.
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Yeah.
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So they could give me constructive feedback, I could give them some constructive feedback.
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It introduces it and it normalizes it because it happens.
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Happens every single time that you meet with them.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:06.880
But yeah, I think making sure that they're prepared and doing things like stay interviews.
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We talk a lot about exit interviews, but stay interviews can be a really good way to get a pulse of where your employees are and then also give them the expectation of what to expect.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:22.559
But like a shout out to anyone listening to this who's a lot of people who listen are also employees.
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So one big frustration I think management has is someone sits down at their performance review and they say they want a promotion.
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I want to be uh their director or manager, they want to be a senior manager or director, let's say.
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That's kind of too late to start that conversation.
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So the preparation, if you want to be a director and you're a manager or senior manager, have that conversation this year in order for it to happen next year.
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Because then your manager can give you those challenges and everything.
00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.200
It's putting the bug in their ear, right?
00:22:55.440 --> 00:23:05.759
Because if if you want to see succession planning and you want to have and develop your career within an organization, you've got to show that you want it, you're interested in those things.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.039
And so having those open dialogues are important.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:14.720
But one of the streams that I'm I see on both sides for everyone is document everything.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.880
Always document those conversations.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:24.480
Because again, so many times when I when I have it, when I have a file and they want to terminate someone, and I'm like, well, where's the documentation?
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.680
What you're telling me about.
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:27.680
Oh, we've had lots of struggles with this employee.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.359
Great, let's see the documentation.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.839
Let's did you did you keep a journal?
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:35.920
Did you write down every time you met with them and what were the things that they were struggling with?
00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:37.599
Were their email correspondence?
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.960
Show me something.
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:40.559
And then it's like, well, we have nothing.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.359
And you're like, oh, that's not so helpful.
00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.839
So it's, you know, documenting everything is a very important strategy.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.960
And it's, you know, like one of the themes that I talk a lot about is HR knows these things.
00:23:53.119 --> 00:24:00.480
We, you know, HR, HR professionals are trained on this, but it does, it's management that really needs to understand things.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:19.119
And it's management that needs to be the ones that are educated the most on how best to manage people and set those expectations early and document it so that you have something to refer back to, not just in this case of a termination, but when they come to you and say, I want to be promoted to a director.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.880
Well, Laura, that's wonderful that you want to be promoted to a director.
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:29.920
However, we've talked over the last few, you know, the last few months that you really need to work on this, that, and the other.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:35.359
And, you know, if you if you want to be a director, then here's the pathway for you to get there.
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:37.359
But remember all the things that we've talked about.
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:49.680
Because if you do get passed up, well, they're not going to say it, but you know, like if they do get passed up for that director role, notwithstanding the fact that they said that they were interested in it, it should be supported with the reasons why.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:52.079
Why why did Sally get it instead of Laura?
00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:58.960
Well, Sally, Sally achieved on these projects and she met she exceeded expectations on deadlines and she did all of these things.
00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:03.759
Whereas with you, Laura, we've been talking about missing deadlines for quite a few months now.
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.799
And we needed someone that we knew could get the job done, right?
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:13.119
So having that documentation allows, you know, an understanding from both sides.
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:24.319
Because again, I think I already said it, but surprises are is in a perfect illustration of where management and ultimately HR are failing, because it should never be a surprise.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:29.279
All of this stuff should be talked about frequently so that it's not a surprise at the end.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:31.519
They should be like, okay, yeah, I know I was late.
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.240
I was always late, and yeah, I missed a ton of deadlines.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.640
You know, like and they talk to me about that.
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:44.000
And I can't, you know, I might on the outside say that everything I was perfect and I should have gotten the role, but inside I know, darn it.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.279
You know, he talked to me a lot of times about missing those deadlines.
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.920
So you know, like surprise is never good.
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.359
No, it isn't good.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:56.319
What about um if someone wants to contest their performance review?
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:12.880
Do you think would you recommend to companies that they have they're set up to take when someone has a genuine issue with their performance review, that they have a process for someone saying, Hey, I was rated this, but I think I should have been rated this.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:13.920
Here is why.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.359
And I want to sort of contest my rating.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.880
That's some dangerous territories, to be honest, right?
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:27.519
Because uh the squeaky wheel, in my experience, the squeaky wheel rarely gets the oil, it usually gets the boot.
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:40.079
So it's it's a very challenging thing to do in the sense that it should happen during the conversation when they present the performance review um the the scores.
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:46.640
It should really happen at that point and identify those pieces that um you maybe dispute.
00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:48.559
Well, what do you mean I'm dismissing deadlines?
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:50.160
Look at all these deadlines that I did make.
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:50.880
What are you talking about?
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.480
Which deadlines are you talking about?
00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:02.799
So there it it can, they can dispute it and it should happen during those conversations, but it should be done very delicately in the sense that they don't want it to be a conflict.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.160
Instead, they want it to be a constructive discussion.
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:21.039
Help me understand what deadlines you know you think I've been missing, but you don't want it to be a like a conflict, because if you if they get into a conflict with their manager, then it uh denigrates the relationship as opposed to improves it.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.200
So you've got to be careful about that.
00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:28.240
But to answer your question, do they need a formal way of appealing a review?
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.480
No, that's not probably something that you want to open the door to, but employees do have ways of disputing a performance review.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:40.240
Most often it's as a formalized complaint, right?
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:46.000
I think that um my performance review is inappropriate, and these are the reasons why.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:50.079
And it it, you know, they informally they can always bring those things to HR.
00:27:50.240 --> 00:28:00.640
So you don't need a structured appeal route for preferred performance reviews because I think that almost opens the door to for people to challenge it all the time.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:06.319
So we don't want to floodgate here, but there are informal ways that people can dispute them.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.920
And I think it starts with having that conversation with the manager.
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:22.000
And if the employee feels like it's falling on deaf ears, then that's when they engage HR to navigate the the difference of opinion when it comes to their performance.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:29.039
So yeah, it's like the question is like how to make how to make your performance reviews last all year, not just a few weeks.
00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:29.599
Yeah.
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:30.000
Yeah.
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:35.359
If you open up that process, you know, we is there anything else you want to say on this topic?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:39.839
Because I want to talk to you about spill the tea, and I have something I want to tell you too.
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.960
Um no, I think that performance reviews are valuable.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:48.480
Um, I we didn't talk about federally regulated organizations.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:53.119
Federally regulated organizations are performance reviews are even more important.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:29:14.000
So that's it's a small group of employers, but you know, communication and transportation across Canada and things like that, those federally regulated, the banks, the federally regulated organizations, performance reviews are even more important because in the federal, the Canada labor code, um, there's no without cause terminations.
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:21.599
There has to be, it has to be either a job elimination or um or it has to be for cause.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:25.039
And so in those instances, there's a lot of job eliminations.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:36.960
And that was what I was talking about a little bit at the beginning, which is they have to prove why the person that was impacted was the correct and reasonable person to be impacted in that decision.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:44.720
And the best way that we have to do that is to collect our performance reviews over the past years to see how everyone was ranking.
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:51.920
And then it should be clear that the person that was being ranked the lowest is the one that should be impacted in those decisions.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.480
So performance reviews shouldn't just be annual.
00:29:54.640 --> 00:30:10.400
I think that they should be something that's much more consistent, and that's just the culminating document at the end of the year that is supported by all of those other conversations that have been happening throughout the year, so that it makes sense to the employee and it's not a surprise.
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:22.319
And it's it actually has concrete, helpful things for them to learn what needs improvement, what are those expectations, and what are the structures that we can put in place to help them get better.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.519
As you were speaking, Janine, about we were talking about all this.
00:30:25.599 --> 00:30:30.319
I remember because we're gonna go into spill the tea and I have a quick little spill the tea, and then I want to hear yours.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:37.359
Um, I was we had in one organization I worked in, we had 360s before we had our reviews.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:42.079
So by that I mean we had other people feedback on us to our manager.
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.960
And of course, I did a lot of research in the organizations.
00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:47.039
Something went wrong.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:58.319
And anyway, all of mine were submitted, and I had several people actually give feedback, and then one person gave me like super low scores all the way through.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.440
Like the other ones were high, and this is one person.
00:31:01.519 --> 00:31:23.599
So if you imagine eight, and then this one, and we worked really closely together, and I actually thought we were kind of friends, and I was shocked because somehow, I guess because of my role, I was the the answers, everyone's answers came and I saw them, and it was such a and you know their name as well, like they they actually knew exactly who it was.
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:28.799
Yes, it was just a mistake, it was just a technical issue.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.079
It wasn't no one was searching for anything or anything like that.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:34.640
And what a wake-up call to me.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:39.359
It was such a surprise to get that back, and then I'd forgotten all about it.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.880
And then as we were talking about this, I was like, that was such an odd experience.
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:52.799
Fortunately, I had a really great relationship with my manager, and I think she she knew maybe more than I did that underneath it there was a little bit of friction because we had similar roles.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:58.960
Um, but anyway, it was just such an eye-opener, and that's all kind of like the water cooler after that.
00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:01.920
You're like, hey, thought we were friends, guess not.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:02.640
I know.
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.759
Well, you know what?
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:10.960
I just made the decision that I'm gonna just be a professional and for pretend it never happened and just move on.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.039
And we still had some laughs and got along and had to work together.
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.400
That that those things happened, but awkward.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.200
Now I want to hear your spill the tea.
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:36.799
Well, I've heard a lot of stories when it comes to performance reviews, and I was working with one client, and I you can just picture that it's a big, it's like a big room full of managers, and they're all jockeying to get that part of the purse for their employees.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:40.400
And so there's a lot of advocacy that happens in the room, right?
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:48.079
Because they're looking for the fives, they're looking for the fours, because they want to give their employees more money and give them recognition over other employees.
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.119
And then it's a reflection on the manager, too, right?
00:32:51.279 --> 00:32:58.319
Because the manager, the more fours and fives they have, the better they look too, to their leaders, right?
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:59.119
Yes.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:09.759
And and they have to go back to their employees, explain the ratings that they ultimately were able to achieve for each of them, and explain why they're only getting so much of a bonus.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:11.839
And back to those conversations before, right?
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:16.400
You know, it's like, well, you know, we have to give everyone qualities because we only have a few.
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:37.839
But I remember one time where there was all that jockey in that meeting to decide who was getting allocated what, and the advocacy was strong, and there was a misunderstanding between the managers because the one manager was in another province, but but their direct reports were in it in a different province.
00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:44.640
And a manager in that province advocating for his employees was trying to push the other ones down.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:48.640
He's like, Well, they're never in the office and they're and they're never here.
00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:49.839
And it's like, where are they?
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:51.599
Are they even doing any work here?
00:33:51.759 --> 00:34:00.079
And when they shared that conversation with the employee, it was like, well, you had assigned them to two different locations and they were at the other location.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:04.559
And so there was a lot of misunderstanding when it came to the ratings that were applied.
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:23.840
I don't know how tea that is, but it's a story of you know, really understanding what's going on and the boiler room that they're in when they're fighting for these, for these performance review ratings, and then having to explain it to the employee as to why they got the bit of the lower one and didn't get the exceptional.
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:29.280
And in those instances, you know, the employee raised it and said, Well, look, you know, you would assign me to two different locations.
00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.199
Obviously, I wasn't in that location because you'd assign me to the other one.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:37.119
So of course I wasn't there, and of course that manager wouldn't have had oversight.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:41.280
And it and that's where those miscommunications can sometimes come into place.
00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:44.880
And it just so happened that that employee was also on a maternity leave.
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:51.920
So then it's like, well, you know, is this a is this a case of assigning a lower rating to someone that's not in the office?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:07.039
And though those were the questions that were raised by the employee that, you know, were live questions that they had to grapple with and and come to a better understanding on how we do these processes to ensure that everyone is is fairly and equitably evaluated.
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:08.159
Do you know what happened?
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:09.840
Absolutely nothing.
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:10.880
Absolutely nothing.
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:13.039
It falls on deaf ears half the time.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:14.639
But that's the way it goes, right?
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:24.320
And so, you know, like it's does does the the squeaky wheel get some oil in the sense of more bonus, or is it just swept under the rug like what you kind of talked about?
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:32.719
And everyone puts, you know, takes a stiff upper lip and moves on, and you know, and yeah, and that's how you can lose employees too, right?
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:35.840
So, because sometimes those things put a bad taste in their mouth.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:47.760
So yeah, and you know, when we do our outplacement coaching with our participants who are looking for work in there, they some of them have a specific idea of what kind of manager they want.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.559
It's like sometimes even if you have a nice manager, it's not good enough.
00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.519
Like we always talk about avoiding toxic managers.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:07.199
You want a manager that has the ear of the other leaders in the organization, has some, and so that they can make the persuasive case as well in these types of situations.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:20.159
And that's where it kind of starts to impact you as an employee, is when you don't have a manager that can make the case or one that might be nice but doesn't really take the time to understand what you're doing and where you are, right?
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.920
It's effective management, right?
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.079
It's a effective management, yes.
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:28.719
No one wants a nice boss, no one wants a toxic boss, we want an effective manager.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:37.360
We we're not friends with our the managers are not friends with the employees, they're their managers, and so they always have to keep that hat on ultimately at the end of the day.
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:40.559
And and the effectiveness goes both ways, right?
00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:58.880
It's advocating for your employees in that boiler room when trying to get that bonus payment based on performance reviews, but it's also ensuring that they're taking proactive steps throughout the year to set their employees up for success so that at the end of the year they are achieving those results and getting the bonuses.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:01.360
Because at the end of the day, it's retention, right?
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:09.360
Um, these performance reviews, if people aren't being recognized, if they're not getting the increases that they're looking for, and things like that, they're gonna leave.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:13.280
And there's so much out there about the cost of replacing an employee.
00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:19.119
So, you know, performance reviews can be a very detrimental thing if they're not done well.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:34.000
But if they if it's something that's incorporated throughout the year and it's really just a culminating document that captures everything that's already been talked about and and goals have already been set and things like that, then it helps employment relationships.
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:38.960
But if it's not done well, it's actually quite damaging for the relationships.
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:42.880
Well, this has been an eye-opener, it's been wonderful.
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:45.920
This is such an interesting topic.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:52.000
When we introduce the show, we say employment law is complex and constantly changing.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:38:03.760
Um, in this case, the complexity just shines through because it's a very complex issue that can have real consequences for an organization if they don't do it well.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:11.679
Um, Janine, I'm so grateful for you uh to you for spending your time with us today and sharing this information.
00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:17.519
And I'll remind everyone that your information is in the show notes so they can get in touch with you.
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.360
This only barely scratches the surface on your expertise.
00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:24.639
So um thank you again and everyone else.
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.559
Have a really great day, and we uh look forward to seeing you next time.
