Sam Finney: Welcome to Closing Thoughts, a podcast about how to live life well. Inspired by tragedy, each episode captures lessons, reflections, and hard-earned wisdom meant to be passed on to my kids and anyone else who wants to listen. Each guest is asked, if you only had five minutes to pass along how to live life well, what would you say? From there, the discussion flows. Alright, so today on Closing Thoughts we have Doc Z. Met Doc Z many years ago at West Point at Center for Enhanced Performance. So he's ⁓ got PhD in Sports and Performance Psychology, mentored a whole bunch of athletes including pro athletes like Eli Manning. He's got a great book, The Confident which came out a few years ago. And yeah, we're pumped ⁓ to get it with you today. Doc Z. He was also at West Point for, what was it, 20, 23 years? 30, oh man.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: 30. How come you think I got no hair? Come on.
Sam Finney: 30 years at West Point at the Center for Enhanced Performance, that's where we got to meet him. And from there, Doc, we'll go ahead and jump in. Would you mind reading your speech?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, I must say this is a pleasure to be with you fellas. I'm going to start by saying, five minutes? I got five minutes to share the most important stuff I think I know. Where the heck you been all this time? We could have spent a lot more than five minutes going over this. But if five minutes is all we've got, so it. Here it comes. Allow me to quote a 95 year old Japanese karate master, Tsutomu Oshima, who I've had the privilege of training under for the last 50 years. Mr. Oshima started his martial arts training back in the 1930s, long before karate became the commercialized and monetized activity it is today. And he stayed true to the bedrock principle that has guided traditional martial arts for hundreds of years. And that principle is this, honest training can lead to profound personal discoveries of one's strengths, weaknesses, and previously unknown capabilities. The term discovery is important here. It means becoming aware of something that already exists, though you were previously unaware of it. Here's the important quote, delivered in the middle of a training session to a group of students. This is what I am expecting you to pass through and treasure all your life, no matter if you quit karate tomorrow. this, you have the strongest, most wonderful feeling inside you. Bring it out, bring it out, use it. You have it. All of you have it. You rarely see it, but I hope you experience it someday. All the technical things, no matter how much you like to talk about it. I consider that all junk. What works in a real fight in the real world is this mentality." End of quote. That's my message for my last five minutes. That there is a state of mind, a level of consciousness within each of us that allows us to do extraordinary things. The artist taps into it during her most creative moments. The athlete taps into it during those rare but wonderful in the zone moments where the action slows down and every movement is unconsciously near perfect. I know this to be true from personal experience and sustained academic study, as well as from Mr. Oshima's personal lesson. 52 years ago, In the heat and pressure of the most important championship athletic event of my young life, I suddenly shifted from being physically tense and mentally worried to being totally relaxed and mentally silent. To a state of mind where there was no sense of separation between me and my opponent. While in this state of mind, my body moved instantly, automatically, and correctly without any conscious instruction or deliberation. In this twilight zone of the mind, I was, for a few brief moments, utterly invincible. And while in it, I executed absolutely perfectly a wrestling takedown that won that championship, but won ironically, that I had hardly ever practiced. In short, I became an enhanced version of myself, the athlete and the winner that I had always wanted to be. Or did I simply experience what I had been capable of doing all along but didn't know? Did I simply become the real me? Mr. Oshima, who I would meet many years later, would certainly think so. That experience on the wrestling mat drove me into the study of the psychology of elite performance, where I learned that my moment in the zone was by no means unique. In fact, athletes from all sports and all levels have provided both formal interview data and informal testimony suggesting that their most memorable, fulfilling, and successful performances are preceded by a state of mind which is essentially empty. Empty that is of instruction, analysis, judgment, and criticism. From Hall of Fame NFL quarterback John Brody's first public disclosure in a 1971 intellectual digest interview entitled, experience a kind of clarity, right up through the latest writings on flow, it is a quiet and almost empty mind that allows the sensory, perceptual, musculoskeletal, and cardiovascular processes of the human body to function at maximum efficiency. Modern brain scanning and neurobiobiofeedback technologies have enabled a surge of research into the neuroscience of human performance, supporting the concept of a quiet mind being conducive to high level execution. Neuroscientists Brad Hatfield and Scott Kerrick concluded their chapter, The Psychology of Superior Sport Performance, a cognitive and affective neuroscience perspective in the 2007 Handbook of Sport Psychology Research with the statement, quote, overwhelming support in the scientific literature for the notion that high level performance is marked by an economy of brain activity that underlies mental processes, end of quote. This economy refers to the quite literal quieting of the mind, the shutting down of all the brain centers and neural processes that are not require to perform a given task. With the mind in this quiet, economical state, stimuli from the senses are processed at maximum speed, allowing for faster reactions and smoother coordination of movements. So here I am, armed with a PhD in sports psychology and with decades of advisory work with athletes and performers of all types under my belt. And what do I know worth passing along? Just what the master shared with me and his other students that day. You have the strongest, most wonderful feeling inside you. Bring it out, bring it out, it, you have it.
Sam Finney: Appreciate you, doc. That was awesome.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Thank you.
Kevin Epp: That was badass.
Sam Finney: go ahead and start off ⁓ discussion and something that struck me a little bit and I feel like feelings a lot of times and well I'll speak from my own personal experience right? Feelings for me a lot of times in the military you you repress the feelings you push them down you got to keep going and continue doing whatever it is regardless of what happens. Why do you think that the Master used the feeling inside of you?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I think he may have used the word feeling to ⁓ to an overall state of consciousness, a kind of hyper awareness. It certainly has a a fascinating content. I know you two guys have tapped into that zone a few times in your playing careers. And boy, is it a wonderful feeling. But that ⁓ is part of a larger level awareness and state of consciousness, if you will. I hope that your question, Sam.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, I think it does and it's almost... In a way, it's almost beyond words. almost like we don't have good enough words in the English language to describe it. And I can think very vividly after working with you for years, the Syracuse game that we in the final seconds. And I was on the double team in the dome. ⁓ we started top and he started running behind X. And that's when we stripped the ball away. there was no thought on.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, yeah.
Sam Finney: Right, everything was instinctual. And then Cole Johnson hit the crossbar and it ball bounced over the midfield line at the buzzer we lost by one. ⁓ But there was no, was just empty, like you said, there were no thoughts.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. English language is very imprecise when it comes to describing different states of mind. I Sanskrit is a lot more ⁓ descriptive. I don't speak Sanskrit. I can't help that. But yeah, right. It's a lot of these experiences are difficult to describe. I've had so conversations with guys like yourself. You know, okay, tell me what it's like when you are at your best, when you are in flow, when you are in the zone. And they go, ⁓ yeah, it's really weird. I don't know how to put it in the words. Yeah. Because the part of our brain that deals with language is momentarily suspended in those moments. It doesn't translate particularly well. so we deal with it as best we can.
Sam Finney: No, that makes sense. I appreciate it.
Kevin Epp: You know, Doc Z, you talked what you just said to Sam. You're like, you know, I know you guys have this a couple of times in your career. Man, I, and I know what you're talking about. But I don't, you know, I want to experience ⁓ rather me, but everybody would love to be in a flow state constantly be able to flip it on and off. Right. That's just, you know, wish, wishful thinking. So, and I was just telling you this, right. In college, if I had an hour, right. Okay. I got limited time. Do I have an hour to go to do this mental stuff and try and be in flow state, et cetera, and everything you did at a CEP? Or I'm gonna hit the gym for an hour. And as a young guy, I chose to hit the gym. I guess my question is, how does someone learn to cultivate this? Right, because that's, you study this deeply. So in layman's terms, I know you could go on, but in layman's terms, like,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: you
Kevin Epp: How does someone work to cultivate this so that they can try and reach that flow state in what they do?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, okay, that's pretty much the zillion dollar question. You know, how do you cultivate it? I got a couple things to say about that. It's not something that you can just flip a switch, you know, and tap into. If you to deliberately make yourself empty ⁓ and super ⁓ then you're just tying up unnecessary parts of your brain and trying to make it happen. You're defeating the purpose right off the start. The best approach is to acknowledge that the zone is already in you. You have that already in you. All you have to do is become more friendly to it and it emerge. We can tone down ⁓ the of criticism, doubt, fear, worry. And when we tone down that stuff consistently, kind of create some space for the zone to come in and take us over. So let's think about, I have to find the zone, cultivate the zone, get in the zone. All I got to do is make myself ⁓ friendly receptive to this state of mind that is already in me. Okay. I very closely with all kinds of people. Tell me what you're like in the zone. And they list the wonderful adjectives. Loose, free, empty, instinctive. Okay. What you like the rest of the time? I'm hesitant. careful. I'm worried. I'm doubtful. Well, if we can just tone down that process of doubt and worry and hesitation. If we could just tone that down, we kind of move into a nice middle area. I call it trust. And if you're in that area of trust and you get a little luck, man, you get blown right over the threshold into the zone. It's kind of cool, but you can't force it. Okay.
Kevin Epp: At kind of a ground level, how do you, maybe, I won't say there's a playbook, but at a ground level, the people that you work with, these are some of the, in the case that we know, highest performing athletes, but you also work with people from everywhere. So, you say, hey, tone down self-doubt, and all the various aspects that they feel when they're in the zone, I mean, how do you actually, you know, Do you sit down, for us, right, that stereotype for the West Point guys is there's literally egg chairs that are shaped like an egg and we're like, that's the egg chair room, right? You'd sit there and suddenly be calm, like, you know. other than bringing an egg chair all around the world with you, you how do you do this?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: You engage people in some ⁓ reflection. I engage people in a process of deliberately remembering. some of their best moments, whether they were in the zone or not. I have people deliberately remembering a bunch of their personal highlights throughout their career. Whether your career is cardiac surgery, venture French horn. I'm not making this up, but these are people that talk to me. What are your signature moments in your career? Let's have a nice list of them. And now let's complete every day from this day forward, doing a little mini reflection. Well, what are my highlights of today? Where did I put in quality effort? Where did I make little successes here and there? What kind of progress am I making in various parts of my job and my life or my sport? And by having this I refer to it as a mental bank account thoughts and memories that make you feel kind of optimistic ⁓ yourself. If you do that enough, you of crowd out some of that negative self-talk, that fear, that doubt, that worry. So we're to build up a sense of certainty about yourself. And then yes, there are formal methods for acknowledging, stopping and replacing the very specific negative self-talk. You're not cut out for this. What makes you think you can do this? Very specific techniques for identifying that stuff, stopping it and replacing it with something better. can do this. ⁓ some practice. takes a while to get good at it, but it's a skill. It's a skill that anybody can cultivate.
Sam Finney: Now that kind of, and I won't jump too deep into my story, Doxy, but, know, before we were talking, I mentioned I was in a much better place and I found myself kind of at the opposite spectrum dealing my brother's death and not dealing with it well and having, you know, a lot of intrusive thoughts and negativity for many years. ⁓ And one thing I've started doing was, you know, doing some meditation in the morning along with some prayer and just
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm.
Sam Finney: being able to observe the thoughts as they come in and out and realizing that I can not control all of them, but I can change gears and make a sharp turn when one of those negative ones comes in.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: and you realize that they are just thoughts. They're just thoughts.
Sam Finney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But just even just taking the practice and being aware, being aware that the thoughts are coming in has been incredibly beneficial. Cause then like you said, I can go back to the good memories, right? The successes and kind of reinforce, I don't know if, you know, scientifically speaking, I don't know if it's reinforcing the subconscious through visualization and through affirmations and through, you know, reflecting on past successes, but you know, it's a slow, it's a slow journey. forward.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. It's all of the above, Sam.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, that's awesome. I'm curious, about like the being in the zone and working on that, what are thoughts? Because obviously, ⁓ replaying past is a big that you just touched on. But I feel like, and I've read some articles about ⁓ attention span decreasing to TikTok and social media and even are written much shorter and all of these things that try and grab our attention, it seems like it's training your brain to want something immediately rather than to sit back and kind of let things happen. Do you have any thoughts on that or how to kind of counter that in our lives?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: My first thought is continue your meditation practice. Continue the practice of literally your in a non-analytical way. That's what all meditative disciplines do. They focus your attention without having you analyze, how is my attention? just focusing your attention on a word, ⁓ ⁓ breath, ⁓ an object, on the pattern of thoughts that as they come and go. I think really important that people exercise that attention span. because we suddenly exposed to all this technology that is encouraging us to move very quickly from one thing to another to another to another to another to another. Our are not designed for that. Evolution has prepared us for this technological onslaught. our brains are designed for us to be able to go outdoors see if we can follow that bird from tree to tree to tree to tree because maybe on the fourth or fifth tree, that's where the bee-eyed is and that's where the honey is. And we want that. So ⁓ as primitive gatherer scavengers, attention was a very important skill. And we that, we can lose lot of it. And there's plenty of sort of scary anecdotes about who do not know how to make a decision because their mind just keeps jumping all over the place. ⁓
Sam Finney: Thank
Kevin Epp: So actually what you just said, Doxy, I mean, right, we were just talking, you showed up in 2000 to New York. that's pre-smartphone social media madness. So just from your subjective point of view, the people that you're helping out with when we're talking about quieting the mind and the effect phones, rapid emails, everything to each other. I mean, have you seen a difference? difference in the people that you're working with? Is that more common?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Oh, if they are the least bit consistent with the practice, absolutely. And it's not a difficult practice. Hey, turn everything off for five minutes, sometime between 6 a.m. and 12 noon. Turn everything off. Sit in your chair. Pay attention to the air moving in and out of your body. There you go. And do it again for five minutes sometime between 12 noon and 6 p.m. ⁓ that will some significant, you know, ⁓ significant in the way you feel. Decision making, attention span, emotional state. You do that five days a week for three to six months. That can be very, very transformative.
Kevin Epp: And from the people coming to you too, like, are they telling you, or are they having rather a harder time doing that just because we're so used to constantly being bombarded with having to be engaged or is it about the same?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. I was doing some work just this past week with a woman who in Texas who competes in certain rodeo events, equestrian events, know, and she has ⁓ certain quiet mind at times and she to get better and better and better at it. So, you know, we're setting up these same kind of drills for her. young fellow from New Jersey who's starting his college career at Fordham University in New York City, you know, well, you better learn how to ⁓ every Thursday night and do your class schedule for the coming week. Otherwise, you're going to run out of time and get distracted. the answer to your question, Kevin, yes, there are all kinds of variations on this theme.
Sam Finney: Doc, in your experience, why are people so to the practice of quieting their mind, ⁓ taking time back and focusing on their thoughts?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, anytime you talk to a person about how they choose to think and feel, you're getting kind of personal, you know? It's one thing to tell somebody in a gym, okay, there's the Gravitron, give me three sets of 10 on the Gravitron, there's the Cattlebell, give me three sets of 12 swings, okay. I want you to sit and I want you to discipline your thought process. That's a little more personal. What do mean? What's wrong with my thought process? My thought process is fine, damn it! There's that aspect of it and there's also the aspect of it that still the word psychology still has a little bit of a stigma attached to it. I tell you, when I first came to West Point in 1992, We did not call it the performance psychology program. We called it the peak performance program because the word psychology was kind of scary. The word psychology has gotten, are much more comfortable with it today than they were 20, 30 years ago. I mean, you think about the word ⁓ I mean, everybody would have thought you're some California hot tub hippie if you use that words 30 years ago as of like 10 years ago, it's entering into the you know popular vocabulary, you know and you know hard-ass ⁓ players and NBA players have mindfulness coaches to help them So are those are two reasons why it's ⁓ it's little challenging at times to get people to try this and then sustain it.
Sam Finney: that makes sense.
Kevin Epp: Do you have, I mean, you're talking about, you know, high level athletes, NFL, NBA, we were just talking about, you know, a hopeful Formula One driver. Do you have kind of just a cool anecdote of, for lack of a better term, like a mental turnaround? Where, I mean, let's think of, you know, somebody who's just constantly distracted, they have the potential, they've, you know, felt flow state, and you've been able to work with them and kind of turn that around. or at least find success with them.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ yeah. I'll be talking tomorrow to a surgeon in Minnesota. and has become very good ⁓ at his own best friend in the operating room and the of, ⁓ He does a lot of retinal reattachments for detached retinas from accidents, et cetera. His rate of has dropped significantly since he has, using the same equipment, using same ⁓ techniques, is just more certain about himself. He is really his own best friend, his own biggest fan and his own greatest supporter when he is in a procedure and he's operating on tissue that is basically a millimeter thick. freaking precise. know, the, the, the margin for error is tiny ⁓ he is much more effective. The results that he is producing have ⁓ improved considerably since he started doing this. So there's one little case study.
Sam Finney: It's awesome. Doc, got a question because in your speech you mentioned treasure. And I was curious because one thing I've been kind of focused on personally over the last couple of years is being more thankful, focusing on gratitude a bit more. How do you see gratitude playing into, you know, getting to the flow state, increasing performance, all that?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, think a state of gratitude... welcomes the world into you as opposed to kind of pissed off you know I'm gonna beat those sons of bitches yeah that that that that you know I'm lucky to be here. This is a cool opportunity. Army lacrosse is going up against Syracuse. What a cool opportunity. I am so grateful. We get to go to the dome and we get to play Syracuse. And damn, every once in a while we actually do knock them off. It happens. How cool would it be to do that? So in terms of letting your strongest, most beautiful mentality, as Mr. Oshoff would put it, letting strongest, most beautiful mentality emerge and come out. I think being ⁓ grateful ⁓ everything you have in this world is a very ⁓ helpful So I would say it's pretty fundamental.
Sam Finney: Yeah.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about gratitude specifically, I do ask people, look for the best in yourself, appreciate it, allow yourself to feel energetic, enthusiastic about yourself based on the fact that, yes, I did pass that Yes, I did make that team. I did score that winning goal ⁓ get that key face off today. Yeah, I did that. a way, you're acknowledging happened and acknowledgement and gratitude are very closely linked.
Sam Finney: Yeah.
Kevin Epp: So much can be said, just what you're saying doc, whatever, gratitude, I won't lump them together, but in my head it just kind of like lumps together with acknowledging what you have, not just in life, but then the opportunities that you're talking about. And I was just reflecting on, so like, right, and I don't mean to harp on the whole West Point thing, but it is a unique microcosm and especially athletics because it's just a bunch of young dudes and just like insult-based humor, which is awesome by the way, okay? I partake frequently, but what I'm saying is if you're around a bunch of high performers and then pretty much your only medium is insult-based humor, again, thick skin, I get it, but after young into adulthood of that and then you're on your own post...
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: you
Kevin Epp: being on sports team. There is an aspect, and I know what you're saying, Doxy, that's why I hit you up, like just a couple years ago, is because the sense of imposter syndrome and maybe lack of confidence and things that outsiders might be like, man, this guy's crushing it. This the dude. And then you're like, no, not really. I don't feel like that. ⁓ Anyway, from a personal standpoint,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah, I'm not, I don't have an affirmation board or anything, but yeah, I'll, you know, I'll sit down from time to time if I have, you know, quote unquote a loss during the day and I'll kind of reflect on it. I'll go, you know what? No, I'm still, I'm in an awesome position. Doesn't make me any better or worse of a person because you know, whatever this didn't work out. Anyway, at a personal level, what you just said kind of speaks to me and I'm not going to psychoanalyze myself, but I kind of know why.
Sam Finney: So we're pretty excited to get this thing up and running this ⁓ I'm pretty excited. ⁓ just had a guest who was sitting in the back in the second round, so I said, I'm pretty excited.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, you're doing something very important. You were looking at a setback or an error that you committed or a setback that occurred. Maybe it was no fault of your own, but we live in an imperfect world and crap happens. right. But what you're telling me, Kevin, is that there will be times when you sort of look back on that and say, yeah, that happened, but It doesn't define me. It's not representative of me on a fundamental level. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people who don't think that way. little setback is a to their unworthiness. It's a testimony the fact that they really are imposters, ⁓ that they don't it. So I spent a of time. Asking people, you know, which experiences in your life have you chosen to define yourself by? When you think about yourself in the broadest terms of your life, you think about... Awards you didn't win, games you lost, friends that you fell out with, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ you define yourself by quality quality experiences, ⁓ moments basically your was away because you were doing something wonderful ⁓ or you were a very beautiful place. I find myself talking to people a lot about making that choice. unfortunately, ⁓ lot of our ⁓ ⁓ school, and sometimes ⁓ in ⁓ ⁓ male locker room, a of that socialization can get you be your ⁓ own ⁓ critic. when it's really okay to be your most, best and most honest friend. Your honest friend will say, hey man, you got something hanging from your nose, you gotta clean that up, you ⁓ ⁓ he's not gonna say, you speak it to other than that. ⁓ gonna help you out. You can be that way to yourself.
Kevin Epp: No, I love that. mean, again, I'm not gonna psychoanalyze myself, Doxy, or at least I refuse to. I can actually, you know what not I'm thinking about it, maybe everybody should, a little bit, know, kinda look at why things are the way they are, why you think the way you think. But anyway, I just know for a fact I have a tremendous amount of imposter syndrome. And then I think to myself, what should I have imposter syndrome over? You haven't done anything, right? And then, Again, it's like, dude, maybe I just grew up that way, just around, you know, again, just kind of the insult based humor. And you just constantly think like that. But in the times in which I have actually sat down or rather had someone like a great coach can do this, a great spouse can do this, where you are just feeling the way you are. It doesn't matter. And they're like, no, man, you know, you're, you're great at what you do. You're a great person, you know, yada, yada, yada. And, um, I don't know, it just speaks to me. athletic portion of it, right, ⁓ and won't have a shot at being NCAA Division I athlete again, okay. And I wasn't really that good a one to begin with, sure, okay. But as a human being ⁓ moving practicing gratitude, mindfulness of how I'm feeling, 100%. I mean, the mental aspect, I wish I was more aware of it when I was younger, ⁓ really, truly,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, you can always start now. I suppose you have already made a wonderful start, ⁓ and you can continue.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, that's true. I should hit you up. Yes.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I love the idea of you and your wife supporting each other, you know? Pointing out the little things, okay? It's one thing to say, ⁓ you're great, you're wonderful. It's just, ⁓ I really like the way you handled that conversation with so-and-so. I really like what you did with this. ⁓
Kevin Epp: I heard that's healthy.
Sam Finney: Well Doc, I was gonna ask you...
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I think to a certain extent, Kevin, the imposter syndrome is worldwide. Everybody a whole lot of self doubt apprehension. Even the guys like Deon Sanders and Charles Barkley. ⁓ I never had a bad game. Okay, yeah, that's wonderful showbiz personality. And they've... taking that all the way to the bank. God bless them, I loan both. But will be moments in everybody's life where it's like, did do that right? Am I on the right track? And this an part of the human experience, asking oneself those pretty philosophical questions.
Sam Finney: So Doc, I think that kind of leads me into another question, maybe a two-fold question. Number one be when you encounter adversity, right? You know, when we lost to Syracuse, whatever else, right? When you have this great opportunity in front of you and it doesn't work out. you know, how much time would you spend going over that, trying to see the lessons learned from it versus, you know, reframing and going back to past successes.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay. How much time do you linger on a disappointing loss? Okay, the answer to that question Sam depends on when your next game is or when your next performing moment is. was told once, I don't know if this is true, it could be just some ⁓ up BS. was told that Michael Jordan, if he played a poor game or his team lost, He would give himself 10 minutes sitting in his stall. I don't know if this was before shower or after shower. I don't know. 10 minutes where he basically feels like crap. 10 minutes. And then at the end of that 10 minutes, okay, now I'm thinking about playing great my next game. Okay, because in Michael Jordan's world, he's playing his next game in 28, 48 hours max. Sometimes even quicker, you know? If he's got a home and home stand, he's, you know, it's, it's 11 PM. He's going to get in his bed at say one. He's got to be on his feet for a 11 AM, 12 noon walk through. Then he goes back to his hooch and rests up and does his pregame stuff. And he's balling again at 7 PM. He doesn't have a whole lot of time. to recriminate. you're, if you play in the NFL, you play one game a week typically. It speeds up a little if you've got to do those awful Thursday night games. But you know, if have a disappointing outing on Sunday, okay, I guess you can have the luxury of being disappointed with yourself all day Monday. And then come Tuesday, you better start thinking about the game plan for the upcoming game. I it's a matter of speed, Timing. If gotta get ready to go the next day, you don't have whole lot of time to sit there and feel sorry for yourself. You gotta get after getting ready for your next performance.
Sam Finney: No, that makes sense. Well, yeah, and I think selfishly I'm thinking of it, you know, even outside of the sports context, just from a work, you know, parenthood, being a good father context. And yeah, I think that five to 10 minutes and then then moving on is probably fairly applicable. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just... I heard Novak Djokovic, the great tennis star who was playing tonight in the US Open quarterfinal round, I heard him say, I don't like this idea that everybody is supposed to be positive all the time. You you're a human being. gonna have moments where you go, you And he admits that in every match he plays, ⁓ He has moments of in oneself, ⁓ how the heck did I do that? ⁓ that was terrible. But he says he gets over that much faster than a lot of younger players who are, you know, talented and hardworking and super fit. He gets out of that ⁓ process comparatively quicker than a lot of other people. So. Yeah, it's okay to be disappointed. Just don't stay there for very long. How long you stay there? Well, that depends on what's coming up in your life. questions.
Sam Finney: Thank you. Alright, I got another one Doc and I know, ironically, I think we discussed this over a decade ago when I was sitting in your office. What do you see, because I know for me, ⁓ Kevin as well, right? Competition, looking around you, seeing the guy that was better than you and committing to working your butt off until you were better than him played a huge part in my success as an athlete. And even as I'm getting older and starting, I guess, regular life off post sports and post military, I've focusing more inward rather than externally. So what do you see ⁓ as of the relationship of when ⁓ should poke your head up, look around and compare yourself versus focusing on trying to uncover the real me? ⁓ that's inside and doing the internal.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: When do you look around and compare yourself to other people?
Sam Finney: If ever.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: My quick smart ass answer is rarely. the process of comparing yourself to somebody else just you back, brings you down. Okay? How about comparing yourself to yourself last week, last month, last season? Okay? Are you better? now than you were last week, last month, last season. You don't have any control over what any other guy does. know, everybody's, everybody's trying to get one of those three starting close defense spots. wants to be the number one, long Paul. ⁓ wants to be, you know, Cole Johnson, one of the top attackmen in the country. But you don't control what those other guys did. The only thing that you control is your effort, your attitude, your focus. You can watch somebody else and say, ⁓ that's interesting. They do this with their hands at this moment. Okay. And that's just information as opposed to, ⁓ geez, I wish I could do it that well. That's when you start getting yourself in trouble. When you, you sort of... implicitly put yourself down compared to somebody else. I wish I could do it that well. Well, let's see how good you can do it. Let's learn about doing it well. Let's think about doing it well. Let's find out how well we can do it. That's the shift. I hope that answers your question.
Sam Finney: Gotcha. Yeah, no, I think so. basically, mean, in short, comparison is going to hurt more than help. But if you come at it from a place of humility and trying to learn and improve yourself, right, that's that's potentially where the benefit lies from looking around and, you know, poking your head up, so to speak.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Indeed.
Sam Finney: Gotcha. All right, I got another quick question for you, Doc. We talked a little bit about relationships earlier, right? Kev mentioned, you know, being married and friends. What would be the best way to kind of support, and you touched on it earlier in the genuine compliments referring to specific things, is there anything else you'd recommend in relationships to kind of foster the real me? and your spouse and your kids, whatever else, and help their thought process out.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Are you talking about kids?
Sam Finney: I think, yeah, think selfishly I'm talking about kids a little bit, but also, you know, just my wife and my interactions with her.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay, yeah, in terms of. terms of helping other people around you... feel a vibe, set the example. Beezer. Be the light, be the force, be the change you want to see elsewhere. ⁓ I get my kid to be more ⁓ and excited and confident about whatever? Parents ask me that all the time. I said, well, how optimistic and enthusiastic and confident are you? Well, hey, you are your son or daughter's very first sort of hypnotist. are, you know, they are going to learn from you. So if you want them to be a certain way, you be a certain way first. You are the adult in the room, presumably. Okay. I think that is super important. You know? I'm doing work with a high school football coach in Houston. Okay. And one of the questions that he wanted to discuss was, how do I get my assistant coaches to be really positive and ⁓ up guys? How do I get them to be more like that? And my answer was, coach. Is that the way you act toward them? You know, just be really freaking honest. Okay. They're going to take their lead from you. Your kids are going to take their lead from you. Your coworkers, you know, if you're in any kind of leadership position in a company, are, you your are going to take their lead from you. You got to act that way if you want them to act that way. That's my two cents on that one.
Sam Finney: No, appreciate it. mean, it's very simple. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, very simple. didn't say it was easy, but it is ⁓ Keep it simple. Do it as consistently as possible ⁓ the chips will fall where they may.
Sam Finney: That's awesome.
Kevin Epp: That reminds me, you may or may not have heard this story, maybe coach. So Sam and I, of course, ⁓ the same coach in college and he has good speeches over the years, many of them. But one of my favorites was the radiators and drains speech, which it seems like a lot of people I know from the team remembered. But when you're talking, it just briefly reminded me of it, which is, ⁓ As the name implies, you can either be a radiator or a drain and it's in relation to like the team energy. And it bleeds beyond just teamwork. It was interesting as you were talking, I was, you know, it sounds like, yeah, okay, you work with a lot of sports people, got it. But it bleeds into life, you know I mean? I mean, sports is kind of a metaphor for life too. And you said it in your speech, right? There's a path of discovery that occurs when someone embarks on.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Epp: you know, physical event. And I wholeheartedly think it's true. If you're, you know, a great athlete and a great teammate, you may happen to have the attributes of a good husband and friend or not. You can always work on it. anyway, the radiators and drains thing has stuck with me. Among other lessons I probably
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, that's a wonderful I confess I have not heard that.
Kevin Epp: It's good. I mean, I don't know if he ripped it from something. I'm just kidding. no, radiators and drains. And I've completely plagiarized it and used it elsewhere. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I just wrote it down. I'm going to use it.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, that's good. Sweet. Sam, did you have something else, man? I may have stepped on you there.
Sam Finney: No, you're good buddy. You're good. think all the informal discussion I got. Unless you got a follow up, Kev.
Kevin Epp: No, I'm good. Let's hit him with the three good golden questions, Doc Z.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Alright, here we go!
Sam Finney: Alright, so the first one is our lives are a compilation of people we know and books we read. Who's somebody dead or alive that's your hero and why?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: happen. I find the... Sadly deceased Army Ranger Pat Tillman to be very He his heart and soul doing something that he felt very strongly about, even though he ⁓ it was gonna have dire repercussions. He was very much aware of his own ⁓ but persevered and set a good example. So I'm very towards Tillman. The fellow who wrote the book about Pat Tillman was college climbing buddy, John Crackauer. interesting connection.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. I'm gonna have to read that one.
Kevin Epp: We should, I didn't know that you were climbing buddies with John Krakauer. You didn't do like Everest with him, did you?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I have never climbed overseas. I've climbed in Alaska, Western Canada, Colorado, Wyoming, Yosemite, New Hampshire, New York State. climbing resume is Bush Lee compared to crack hours.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, crazy. Well, here we go, the second part of the question. So the people you meet and the books you read. So give us a book that has been most influential or an influential book in your life.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: think the single most influential book for me professionally was The Inner Game of Tennis by Tim Galway. This written in 1970. four or five. And back when I was an undergrad, term sports psychology didn't really exist. And so I deeply into that book. I think that's an excellent book. I will also recommend The Boys in the Boat by Dan Brown. I read a quote from book at the first in the Army of La Crosse locker room on the very first day of practice. Because this is the kind of experience you can have, fellas. So those are two.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. appreciate it. All we're moving on to question number two, Doc. So what was one low point in your life? What changes did you make to pull yourself out of it? And what lessons did you learn from it?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay, there was a low point in my life when I was working for a management consulting company way out in Western Canada. I had completed a project and they had sent me ⁓ the city of Vancouver for another project. But the ⁓ hadn't been completely agreed upon between my boss and the client company. So after like a week on site, it was like, you know, get out of here, we're not using you. And the had no other projects for me. ⁓ So basically dropped me like a hot potato. And this is, this is Vancouver, British Columbia. This is the other side of the country from what I'm accustomed to. left a teaching job in New Jersey to join this company way out in Vancouver, British Columbia. So it was, ⁓ that a pretty low moment. But curiously it was during that low moment that I decided, I think I'm going to get really serious about this sport psychology. field and go for it. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Sam Finney: well selfishly i'm very very glad that that happened to you we could be sitting here today chatting ⁓ awesome alright one for you is what is success to you
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: There you go. What is success? I like the famous John Wooden basketball coach definition. Success is the peace of mind derived from self satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could with what you had. That's what success is. Peace of mind derived from satisfaction, knowing you did the best you could with what you had.
Sam Finney: I'm embarrassed to say I have not heard that one.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ you can Google John Wooden definition of success and you'll find a real nice video of the, you know, the fellow making that statement. That was his philosophy for, ⁓ don't know how many decades he coached, 10 championships in a row, something ridiculous.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, and I think it harkens back to, you know, the question earlier about comparing yourself to others ⁓ I mean, from that, from that quote, everything is what's inside and what did you do?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Defining yourself from within. Not what society wants. Not what anybody else wants. Defining yourself from within. That's toll order, but it's worth pursuing. Hey, fellas, thanks so much, man, for letting me ⁓ on like this. This has been great.
Sam Finney: Yeah. No, absolutely, doc. Thank you. Thank you for your time. really, really appreciate it.
Kevin Epp: This is badass. I want to hang out. have like 100 more questions for you, but it spans the gambit from climbing to martial arts to psychedelics. But maybe that's another time. Doxy.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Anytime you know how to reach me now. And if you ever come east for whatever reason, when's your 20th class reunion or something?
Kevin Epp: Let's go. Let's go. Good night. It's coming up faster than we think. Hey, no, it was awesome talking to you, Doc. I always, I seriously appreciate you.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Likewise, fellas, honor of a lifetime to have spent the bulk of my professional career with y'all.
Sam Finney: Thank you.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: 30. How come you think I got no hair? Come on.
Sam Finney: 30 years at West Point at the Center for Enhanced Performance, that's where we got to meet him. And from there, Doc, we'll go ahead and jump in. Would you mind reading your speech?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, I must say this is a pleasure to be with you fellas. I'm going to start by saying, five minutes? I got five minutes to share the most important stuff I think I know. Where the heck you been all this time? We could have spent a lot more than five minutes going over this. But if five minutes is all we've got, so it. Here it comes. Allow me to quote a 95 year old Japanese karate master, Tsutomu Oshima, who I've had the privilege of training under for the last 50 years. Mr. Oshima started his martial arts training back in the 1930s, long before karate became the commercialized and monetized activity it is today. And he stayed true to the bedrock principle that has guided traditional martial arts for hundreds of years. And that principle is this, honest training can lead to profound personal discoveries of one's strengths, weaknesses, and previously unknown capabilities. The term discovery is important here. It means becoming aware of something that already exists, though you were previously unaware of it. Here's the important quote, delivered in the middle of a training session to a group of students. This is what I am expecting you to pass through and treasure all your life, no matter if you quit karate tomorrow. this, you have the strongest, most wonderful feeling inside you. Bring it out, bring it out, use it. You have it. All of you have it. You rarely see it, but I hope you experience it someday. All the technical things, no matter how much you like to talk about it. I consider that all junk. What works in a real fight in the real world is this mentality." End of quote. That's my message for my last five minutes. That there is a state of mind, a level of consciousness within each of us that allows us to do extraordinary things. The artist taps into it during her most creative moments. The athlete taps into it during those rare but wonderful in the zone moments where the action slows down and every movement is unconsciously near perfect. I know this to be true from personal experience and sustained academic study, as well as from Mr. Oshima's personal lesson. 52 years ago, In the heat and pressure of the most important championship athletic event of my young life, I suddenly shifted from being physically tense and mentally worried to being totally relaxed and mentally silent. To a state of mind where there was no sense of separation between me and my opponent. While in this state of mind, my body moved instantly, automatically, and correctly without any conscious instruction or deliberation. In this twilight zone of the mind, I was, for a few brief moments, utterly invincible. And while in it, I executed absolutely perfectly a wrestling takedown that won that championship, but won ironically, that I had hardly ever practiced. In short, I became an enhanced version of myself, the athlete and the winner that I had always wanted to be. Or did I simply experience what I had been capable of doing all along but didn't know? Did I simply become the real me? Mr. Oshima, who I would meet many years later, would certainly think so. That experience on the wrestling mat drove me into the study of the psychology of elite performance, where I learned that my moment in the zone was by no means unique. In fact, athletes from all sports and all levels have provided both formal interview data and informal testimony suggesting that their most memorable, fulfilling, and successful performances are preceded by a state of mind which is essentially empty. Empty that is of instruction, analysis, judgment, and criticism. From Hall of Fame NFL quarterback John Brody's first public disclosure in a 1971 intellectual digest interview entitled, experience a kind of clarity, right up through the latest writings on flow, it is a quiet and almost empty mind that allows the sensory, perceptual, musculoskeletal, and cardiovascular processes of the human body to function at maximum efficiency. Modern brain scanning and neurobiobiofeedback technologies have enabled a surge of research into the neuroscience of human performance, supporting the concept of a quiet mind being conducive to high level execution. Neuroscientists Brad Hatfield and Scott Kerrick concluded their chapter, The Psychology of Superior Sport Performance, a cognitive and affective neuroscience perspective in the 2007 Handbook of Sport Psychology Research with the statement, quote, overwhelming support in the scientific literature for the notion that high level performance is marked by an economy of brain activity that underlies mental processes, end of quote. This economy refers to the quite literal quieting of the mind, the shutting down of all the brain centers and neural processes that are not require to perform a given task. With the mind in this quiet, economical state, stimuli from the senses are processed at maximum speed, allowing for faster reactions and smoother coordination of movements. So here I am, armed with a PhD in sports psychology and with decades of advisory work with athletes and performers of all types under my belt. And what do I know worth passing along? Just what the master shared with me and his other students that day. You have the strongest, most wonderful feeling inside you. Bring it out, bring it out, it, you have it.
Sam Finney: Appreciate you, doc. That was awesome.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Thank you.
Kevin Epp: That was badass.
Sam Finney: go ahead and start off ⁓ discussion and something that struck me a little bit and I feel like feelings a lot of times and well I'll speak from my own personal experience right? Feelings for me a lot of times in the military you you repress the feelings you push them down you got to keep going and continue doing whatever it is regardless of what happens. Why do you think that the Master used the feeling inside of you?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I think he may have used the word feeling to ⁓ to an overall state of consciousness, a kind of hyper awareness. It certainly has a a fascinating content. I know you two guys have tapped into that zone a few times in your playing careers. And boy, is it a wonderful feeling. But that ⁓ is part of a larger level awareness and state of consciousness, if you will. I hope that your question, Sam.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, I think it does and it's almost... In a way, it's almost beyond words. almost like we don't have good enough words in the English language to describe it. And I can think very vividly after working with you for years, the Syracuse game that we in the final seconds. And I was on the double team in the dome. ⁓ we started top and he started running behind X. And that's when we stripped the ball away. there was no thought on.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, yeah.
Sam Finney: Right, everything was instinctual. And then Cole Johnson hit the crossbar and it ball bounced over the midfield line at the buzzer we lost by one. ⁓ But there was no, was just empty, like you said, there were no thoughts.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. English language is very imprecise when it comes to describing different states of mind. I Sanskrit is a lot more ⁓ descriptive. I don't speak Sanskrit. I can't help that. But yeah, right. It's a lot of these experiences are difficult to describe. I've had so conversations with guys like yourself. You know, okay, tell me what it's like when you are at your best, when you are in flow, when you are in the zone. And they go, ⁓ yeah, it's really weird. I don't know how to put it in the words. Yeah. Because the part of our brain that deals with language is momentarily suspended in those moments. It doesn't translate particularly well. so we deal with it as best we can.
Sam Finney: No, that makes sense. I appreciate it.
Kevin Epp: You know, Doc Z, you talked what you just said to Sam. You're like, you know, I know you guys have this a couple of times in your career. Man, I, and I know what you're talking about. But I don't, you know, I want to experience ⁓ rather me, but everybody would love to be in a flow state constantly be able to flip it on and off. Right. That's just, you know, wish, wishful thinking. So, and I was just telling you this, right. In college, if I had an hour, right. Okay. I got limited time. Do I have an hour to go to do this mental stuff and try and be in flow state, et cetera, and everything you did at a CEP? Or I'm gonna hit the gym for an hour. And as a young guy, I chose to hit the gym. I guess my question is, how does someone learn to cultivate this? Right, because that's, you study this deeply. So in layman's terms, I know you could go on, but in layman's terms, like,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: you
Kevin Epp: How does someone work to cultivate this so that they can try and reach that flow state in what they do?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, okay, that's pretty much the zillion dollar question. You know, how do you cultivate it? I got a couple things to say about that. It's not something that you can just flip a switch, you know, and tap into. If you to deliberately make yourself empty ⁓ and super ⁓ then you're just tying up unnecessary parts of your brain and trying to make it happen. You're defeating the purpose right off the start. The best approach is to acknowledge that the zone is already in you. You have that already in you. All you have to do is become more friendly to it and it emerge. We can tone down ⁓ the of criticism, doubt, fear, worry. And when we tone down that stuff consistently, kind of create some space for the zone to come in and take us over. So let's think about, I have to find the zone, cultivate the zone, get in the zone. All I got to do is make myself ⁓ friendly receptive to this state of mind that is already in me. Okay. I very closely with all kinds of people. Tell me what you're like in the zone. And they list the wonderful adjectives. Loose, free, empty, instinctive. Okay. What you like the rest of the time? I'm hesitant. careful. I'm worried. I'm doubtful. Well, if we can just tone down that process of doubt and worry and hesitation. If we could just tone that down, we kind of move into a nice middle area. I call it trust. And if you're in that area of trust and you get a little luck, man, you get blown right over the threshold into the zone. It's kind of cool, but you can't force it. Okay.
Kevin Epp: At kind of a ground level, how do you, maybe, I won't say there's a playbook, but at a ground level, the people that you work with, these are some of the, in the case that we know, highest performing athletes, but you also work with people from everywhere. So, you say, hey, tone down self-doubt, and all the various aspects that they feel when they're in the zone, I mean, how do you actually, you know, Do you sit down, for us, right, that stereotype for the West Point guys is there's literally egg chairs that are shaped like an egg and we're like, that's the egg chair room, right? You'd sit there and suddenly be calm, like, you know. other than bringing an egg chair all around the world with you, you how do you do this?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: You engage people in some ⁓ reflection. I engage people in a process of deliberately remembering. some of their best moments, whether they were in the zone or not. I have people deliberately remembering a bunch of their personal highlights throughout their career. Whether your career is cardiac surgery, venture French horn. I'm not making this up, but these are people that talk to me. What are your signature moments in your career? Let's have a nice list of them. And now let's complete every day from this day forward, doing a little mini reflection. Well, what are my highlights of today? Where did I put in quality effort? Where did I make little successes here and there? What kind of progress am I making in various parts of my job and my life or my sport? And by having this I refer to it as a mental bank account thoughts and memories that make you feel kind of optimistic ⁓ yourself. If you do that enough, you of crowd out some of that negative self-talk, that fear, that doubt, that worry. So we're to build up a sense of certainty about yourself. And then yes, there are formal methods for acknowledging, stopping and replacing the very specific negative self-talk. You're not cut out for this. What makes you think you can do this? Very specific techniques for identifying that stuff, stopping it and replacing it with something better. can do this. ⁓ some practice. takes a while to get good at it, but it's a skill. It's a skill that anybody can cultivate.
Sam Finney: Now that kind of, and I won't jump too deep into my story, Doxy, but, know, before we were talking, I mentioned I was in a much better place and I found myself kind of at the opposite spectrum dealing my brother's death and not dealing with it well and having, you know, a lot of intrusive thoughts and negativity for many years. ⁓ And one thing I've started doing was, you know, doing some meditation in the morning along with some prayer and just
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm.
Sam Finney: being able to observe the thoughts as they come in and out and realizing that I can not control all of them, but I can change gears and make a sharp turn when one of those negative ones comes in.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: and you realize that they are just thoughts. They're just thoughts.
Sam Finney: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But just even just taking the practice and being aware, being aware that the thoughts are coming in has been incredibly beneficial. Cause then like you said, I can go back to the good memories, right? The successes and kind of reinforce, I don't know if, you know, scientifically speaking, I don't know if it's reinforcing the subconscious through visualization and through affirmations and through, you know, reflecting on past successes, but you know, it's a slow, it's a slow journey. forward.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. It's all of the above, Sam.
Sam Finney: Yeah, no, that's awesome. I'm curious, about like the being in the zone and working on that, what are thoughts? Because obviously, ⁓ replaying past is a big that you just touched on. But I feel like, and I've read some articles about ⁓ attention span decreasing to TikTok and social media and even are written much shorter and all of these things that try and grab our attention, it seems like it's training your brain to want something immediately rather than to sit back and kind of let things happen. Do you have any thoughts on that or how to kind of counter that in our lives?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: My first thought is continue your meditation practice. Continue the practice of literally your in a non-analytical way. That's what all meditative disciplines do. They focus your attention without having you analyze, how is my attention? just focusing your attention on a word, ⁓ ⁓ breath, ⁓ an object, on the pattern of thoughts that as they come and go. I think really important that people exercise that attention span. because we suddenly exposed to all this technology that is encouraging us to move very quickly from one thing to another to another to another to another to another. Our are not designed for that. Evolution has prepared us for this technological onslaught. our brains are designed for us to be able to go outdoors see if we can follow that bird from tree to tree to tree to tree because maybe on the fourth or fifth tree, that's where the bee-eyed is and that's where the honey is. And we want that. So ⁓ as primitive gatherer scavengers, attention was a very important skill. And we that, we can lose lot of it. And there's plenty of sort of scary anecdotes about who do not know how to make a decision because their mind just keeps jumping all over the place. ⁓
Sam Finney: Thank
Kevin Epp: So actually what you just said, Doxy, I mean, right, we were just talking, you showed up in 2000 to New York. that's pre-smartphone social media madness. So just from your subjective point of view, the people that you're helping out with when we're talking about quieting the mind and the effect phones, rapid emails, everything to each other. I mean, have you seen a difference? difference in the people that you're working with? Is that more common?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Oh, if they are the least bit consistent with the practice, absolutely. And it's not a difficult practice. Hey, turn everything off for five minutes, sometime between 6 a.m. and 12 noon. Turn everything off. Sit in your chair. Pay attention to the air moving in and out of your body. There you go. And do it again for five minutes sometime between 12 noon and 6 p.m. ⁓ that will some significant, you know, ⁓ significant in the way you feel. Decision making, attention span, emotional state. You do that five days a week for three to six months. That can be very, very transformative.
Kevin Epp: And from the people coming to you too, like, are they telling you, or are they having rather a harder time doing that just because we're so used to constantly being bombarded with having to be engaged or is it about the same?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. I was doing some work just this past week with a woman who in Texas who competes in certain rodeo events, equestrian events, know, and she has ⁓ certain quiet mind at times and she to get better and better and better at it. So, you know, we're setting up these same kind of drills for her. young fellow from New Jersey who's starting his college career at Fordham University in New York City, you know, well, you better learn how to ⁓ every Thursday night and do your class schedule for the coming week. Otherwise, you're going to run out of time and get distracted. the answer to your question, Kevin, yes, there are all kinds of variations on this theme.
Sam Finney: Doc, in your experience, why are people so to the practice of quieting their mind, ⁓ taking time back and focusing on their thoughts?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, anytime you talk to a person about how they choose to think and feel, you're getting kind of personal, you know? It's one thing to tell somebody in a gym, okay, there's the Gravitron, give me three sets of 10 on the Gravitron, there's the Cattlebell, give me three sets of 12 swings, okay. I want you to sit and I want you to discipline your thought process. That's a little more personal. What do mean? What's wrong with my thought process? My thought process is fine, damn it! There's that aspect of it and there's also the aspect of it that still the word psychology still has a little bit of a stigma attached to it. I tell you, when I first came to West Point in 1992, We did not call it the performance psychology program. We called it the peak performance program because the word psychology was kind of scary. The word psychology has gotten, are much more comfortable with it today than they were 20, 30 years ago. I mean, you think about the word ⁓ I mean, everybody would have thought you're some California hot tub hippie if you use that words 30 years ago as of like 10 years ago, it's entering into the you know popular vocabulary, you know and you know hard-ass ⁓ players and NBA players have mindfulness coaches to help them So are those are two reasons why it's ⁓ it's little challenging at times to get people to try this and then sustain it.
Sam Finney: that makes sense.
Kevin Epp: Do you have, I mean, you're talking about, you know, high level athletes, NFL, NBA, we were just talking about, you know, a hopeful Formula One driver. Do you have kind of just a cool anecdote of, for lack of a better term, like a mental turnaround? Where, I mean, let's think of, you know, somebody who's just constantly distracted, they have the potential, they've, you know, felt flow state, and you've been able to work with them and kind of turn that around. or at least find success with them.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ yeah. I'll be talking tomorrow to a surgeon in Minnesota. and has become very good ⁓ at his own best friend in the operating room and the of, ⁓ He does a lot of retinal reattachments for detached retinas from accidents, et cetera. His rate of has dropped significantly since he has, using the same equipment, using same ⁓ techniques, is just more certain about himself. He is really his own best friend, his own biggest fan and his own greatest supporter when he is in a procedure and he's operating on tissue that is basically a millimeter thick. freaking precise. know, the, the, the margin for error is tiny ⁓ he is much more effective. The results that he is producing have ⁓ improved considerably since he started doing this. So there's one little case study.
Sam Finney: It's awesome. Doc, got a question because in your speech you mentioned treasure. And I was curious because one thing I've been kind of focused on personally over the last couple of years is being more thankful, focusing on gratitude a bit more. How do you see gratitude playing into, you know, getting to the flow state, increasing performance, all that?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, think a state of gratitude... welcomes the world into you as opposed to kind of pissed off you know I'm gonna beat those sons of bitches yeah that that that that you know I'm lucky to be here. This is a cool opportunity. Army lacrosse is going up against Syracuse. What a cool opportunity. I am so grateful. We get to go to the dome and we get to play Syracuse. And damn, every once in a while we actually do knock them off. It happens. How cool would it be to do that? So in terms of letting your strongest, most beautiful mentality, as Mr. Oshoff would put it, letting strongest, most beautiful mentality emerge and come out. I think being ⁓ grateful ⁓ everything you have in this world is a very ⁓ helpful So I would say it's pretty fundamental.
Sam Finney: Yeah.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about gratitude specifically, I do ask people, look for the best in yourself, appreciate it, allow yourself to feel energetic, enthusiastic about yourself based on the fact that, yes, I did pass that Yes, I did make that team. I did score that winning goal ⁓ get that key face off today. Yeah, I did that. a way, you're acknowledging happened and acknowledgement and gratitude are very closely linked.
Sam Finney: Yeah.
Kevin Epp: So much can be said, just what you're saying doc, whatever, gratitude, I won't lump them together, but in my head it just kind of like lumps together with acknowledging what you have, not just in life, but then the opportunities that you're talking about. And I was just reflecting on, so like, right, and I don't mean to harp on the whole West Point thing, but it is a unique microcosm and especially athletics because it's just a bunch of young dudes and just like insult-based humor, which is awesome by the way, okay? I partake frequently, but what I'm saying is if you're around a bunch of high performers and then pretty much your only medium is insult-based humor, again, thick skin, I get it, but after young into adulthood of that and then you're on your own post...
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: you
Kevin Epp: being on sports team. There is an aspect, and I know what you're saying, Doxy, that's why I hit you up, like just a couple years ago, is because the sense of imposter syndrome and maybe lack of confidence and things that outsiders might be like, man, this guy's crushing it. This the dude. And then you're like, no, not really. I don't feel like that. ⁓ Anyway, from a personal standpoint,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. ⁓
Kevin Epp: Yeah, I'm not, I don't have an affirmation board or anything, but yeah, I'll, you know, I'll sit down from time to time if I have, you know, quote unquote a loss during the day and I'll kind of reflect on it. I'll go, you know what? No, I'm still, I'm in an awesome position. Doesn't make me any better or worse of a person because you know, whatever this didn't work out. Anyway, at a personal level, what you just said kind of speaks to me and I'm not going to psychoanalyze myself, but I kind of know why.
Sam Finney: So we're pretty excited to get this thing up and running this ⁓ I'm pretty excited. ⁓ just had a guest who was sitting in the back in the second round, so I said, I'm pretty excited.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, you're doing something very important. You were looking at a setback or an error that you committed or a setback that occurred. Maybe it was no fault of your own, but we live in an imperfect world and crap happens. right. But what you're telling me, Kevin, is that there will be times when you sort of look back on that and say, yeah, that happened, but It doesn't define me. It's not representative of me on a fundamental level. And unfortunately, there are a lot of people who don't think that way. little setback is a to their unworthiness. It's a testimony the fact that they really are imposters, ⁓ that they don't it. So I spent a of time. Asking people, you know, which experiences in your life have you chosen to define yourself by? When you think about yourself in the broadest terms of your life, you think about... Awards you didn't win, games you lost, friends that you fell out with, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. ⁓ you define yourself by quality quality experiences, ⁓ moments basically your was away because you were doing something wonderful ⁓ or you were a very beautiful place. I find myself talking to people a lot about making that choice. unfortunately, ⁓ lot of our ⁓ ⁓ school, and sometimes ⁓ in ⁓ ⁓ male locker room, a of that socialization can get you be your ⁓ own ⁓ critic. when it's really okay to be your most, best and most honest friend. Your honest friend will say, hey man, you got something hanging from your nose, you gotta clean that up, you ⁓ ⁓ he's not gonna say, you speak it to other than that. ⁓ gonna help you out. You can be that way to yourself.
Kevin Epp: No, I love that. mean, again, I'm not gonna psychoanalyze myself, Doxy, or at least I refuse to. I can actually, you know what not I'm thinking about it, maybe everybody should, a little bit, know, kinda look at why things are the way they are, why you think the way you think. But anyway, I just know for a fact I have a tremendous amount of imposter syndrome. And then I think to myself, what should I have imposter syndrome over? You haven't done anything, right? And then, Again, it's like, dude, maybe I just grew up that way, just around, you know, again, just kind of the insult based humor. And you just constantly think like that. But in the times in which I have actually sat down or rather had someone like a great coach can do this, a great spouse can do this, where you are just feeling the way you are. It doesn't matter. And they're like, no, man, you know, you're, you're great at what you do. You're a great person, you know, yada, yada, yada. And, um, I don't know, it just speaks to me. athletic portion of it, right, ⁓ and won't have a shot at being NCAA Division I athlete again, okay. And I wasn't really that good a one to begin with, sure, okay. But as a human being ⁓ moving practicing gratitude, mindfulness of how I'm feeling, 100%. I mean, the mental aspect, I wish I was more aware of it when I was younger, ⁓ really, truly,
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Well, you can always start now. I suppose you have already made a wonderful start, ⁓ and you can continue.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, that's true. I should hit you up. Yes.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I love the idea of you and your wife supporting each other, you know? Pointing out the little things, okay? It's one thing to say, ⁓ you're great, you're wonderful. It's just, ⁓ I really like the way you handled that conversation with so-and-so. I really like what you did with this. ⁓
Kevin Epp: I heard that's healthy.
Sam Finney: Well Doc, I was gonna ask you...
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I think to a certain extent, Kevin, the imposter syndrome is worldwide. Everybody a whole lot of self doubt apprehension. Even the guys like Deon Sanders and Charles Barkley. ⁓ I never had a bad game. Okay, yeah, that's wonderful showbiz personality. And they've... taking that all the way to the bank. God bless them, I loan both. But will be moments in everybody's life where it's like, did do that right? Am I on the right track? And this an part of the human experience, asking oneself those pretty philosophical questions.
Sam Finney: So Doc, I think that kind of leads me into another question, maybe a two-fold question. Number one be when you encounter adversity, right? You know, when we lost to Syracuse, whatever else, right? When you have this great opportunity in front of you and it doesn't work out. you know, how much time would you spend going over that, trying to see the lessons learned from it versus, you know, reframing and going back to past successes.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay. How much time do you linger on a disappointing loss? Okay, the answer to that question Sam depends on when your next game is or when your next performing moment is. was told once, I don't know if this is true, it could be just some ⁓ up BS. was told that Michael Jordan, if he played a poor game or his team lost, He would give himself 10 minutes sitting in his stall. I don't know if this was before shower or after shower. I don't know. 10 minutes where he basically feels like crap. 10 minutes. And then at the end of that 10 minutes, okay, now I'm thinking about playing great my next game. Okay, because in Michael Jordan's world, he's playing his next game in 28, 48 hours max. Sometimes even quicker, you know? If he's got a home and home stand, he's, you know, it's, it's 11 PM. He's going to get in his bed at say one. He's got to be on his feet for a 11 AM, 12 noon walk through. Then he goes back to his hooch and rests up and does his pregame stuff. And he's balling again at 7 PM. He doesn't have a whole lot of time. to recriminate. you're, if you play in the NFL, you play one game a week typically. It speeds up a little if you've got to do those awful Thursday night games. But you know, if have a disappointing outing on Sunday, okay, I guess you can have the luxury of being disappointed with yourself all day Monday. And then come Tuesday, you better start thinking about the game plan for the upcoming game. I it's a matter of speed, Timing. If gotta get ready to go the next day, you don't have whole lot of time to sit there and feel sorry for yourself. You gotta get after getting ready for your next performance.
Sam Finney: No, that makes sense. Well, yeah, and I think selfishly I'm thinking of it, you know, even outside of the sports context, just from a work, you know, parenthood, being a good father context. And yeah, I think that five to 10 minutes and then then moving on is probably fairly applicable. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just... I heard Novak Djokovic, the great tennis star who was playing tonight in the US Open quarterfinal round, I heard him say, I don't like this idea that everybody is supposed to be positive all the time. You you're a human being. gonna have moments where you go, you And he admits that in every match he plays, ⁓ He has moments of in oneself, ⁓ how the heck did I do that? ⁓ that was terrible. But he says he gets over that much faster than a lot of younger players who are, you know, talented and hardworking and super fit. He gets out of that ⁓ process comparatively quicker than a lot of other people. So. Yeah, it's okay to be disappointed. Just don't stay there for very long. How long you stay there? Well, that depends on what's coming up in your life. questions.
Sam Finney: Thank you. Alright, I got another one Doc and I know, ironically, I think we discussed this over a decade ago when I was sitting in your office. What do you see, because I know for me, ⁓ Kevin as well, right? Competition, looking around you, seeing the guy that was better than you and committing to working your butt off until you were better than him played a huge part in my success as an athlete. And even as I'm getting older and starting, I guess, regular life off post sports and post military, I've focusing more inward rather than externally. So what do you see ⁓ as of the relationship of when ⁓ should poke your head up, look around and compare yourself versus focusing on trying to uncover the real me? ⁓ that's inside and doing the internal.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: When do you look around and compare yourself to other people?
Sam Finney: If ever.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: My quick smart ass answer is rarely. the process of comparing yourself to somebody else just you back, brings you down. Okay? How about comparing yourself to yourself last week, last month, last season? Okay? Are you better? now than you were last week, last month, last season. You don't have any control over what any other guy does. know, everybody's, everybody's trying to get one of those three starting close defense spots. wants to be the number one, long Paul. ⁓ wants to be, you know, Cole Johnson, one of the top attackmen in the country. But you don't control what those other guys did. The only thing that you control is your effort, your attitude, your focus. You can watch somebody else and say, ⁓ that's interesting. They do this with their hands at this moment. Okay. And that's just information as opposed to, ⁓ geez, I wish I could do it that well. That's when you start getting yourself in trouble. When you, you sort of... implicitly put yourself down compared to somebody else. I wish I could do it that well. Well, let's see how good you can do it. Let's learn about doing it well. Let's think about doing it well. Let's find out how well we can do it. That's the shift. I hope that answers your question.
Sam Finney: Gotcha. Yeah, no, I think so. basically, mean, in short, comparison is going to hurt more than help. But if you come at it from a place of humility and trying to learn and improve yourself, right, that's that's potentially where the benefit lies from looking around and, you know, poking your head up, so to speak.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Indeed.
Sam Finney: Gotcha. All right, I got another quick question for you, Doc. We talked a little bit about relationships earlier, right? Kev mentioned, you know, being married and friends. What would be the best way to kind of support, and you touched on it earlier in the genuine compliments referring to specific things, is there anything else you'd recommend in relationships to kind of foster the real me? and your spouse and your kids, whatever else, and help their thought process out.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Are you talking about kids?
Sam Finney: I think, yeah, think selfishly I'm talking about kids a little bit, but also, you know, just my wife and my interactions with her.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay, yeah, in terms of. terms of helping other people around you... feel a vibe, set the example. Beezer. Be the light, be the force, be the change you want to see elsewhere. ⁓ I get my kid to be more ⁓ and excited and confident about whatever? Parents ask me that all the time. I said, well, how optimistic and enthusiastic and confident are you? Well, hey, you are your son or daughter's very first sort of hypnotist. are, you know, they are going to learn from you. So if you want them to be a certain way, you be a certain way first. You are the adult in the room, presumably. Okay. I think that is super important. You know? I'm doing work with a high school football coach in Houston. Okay. And one of the questions that he wanted to discuss was, how do I get my assistant coaches to be really positive and ⁓ up guys? How do I get them to be more like that? And my answer was, coach. Is that the way you act toward them? You know, just be really freaking honest. Okay. They're going to take their lead from you. Your kids are going to take their lead from you. Your coworkers, you know, if you're in any kind of leadership position in a company, are, you your are going to take their lead from you. You got to act that way if you want them to act that way. That's my two cents on that one.
Sam Finney: No, appreciate it. mean, it's very simple. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, very simple. didn't say it was easy, but it is ⁓ Keep it simple. Do it as consistently as possible ⁓ the chips will fall where they may.
Sam Finney: That's awesome.
Kevin Epp: That reminds me, you may or may not have heard this story, maybe coach. So Sam and I, of course, ⁓ the same coach in college and he has good speeches over the years, many of them. But one of my favorites was the radiators and drains speech, which it seems like a lot of people I know from the team remembered. But when you're talking, it just briefly reminded me of it, which is, ⁓ As the name implies, you can either be a radiator or a drain and it's in relation to like the team energy. And it bleeds beyond just teamwork. It was interesting as you were talking, I was, you know, it sounds like, yeah, okay, you work with a lot of sports people, got it. But it bleeds into life, you know I mean? I mean, sports is kind of a metaphor for life too. And you said it in your speech, right? There's a path of discovery that occurs when someone embarks on.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Mm-hmm.
Kevin Epp: you know, physical event. And I wholeheartedly think it's true. If you're, you know, a great athlete and a great teammate, you may happen to have the attributes of a good husband and friend or not. You can always work on it. anyway, the radiators and drains thing has stuck with me. Among other lessons I probably
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah, that's a wonderful I confess I have not heard that.
Kevin Epp: It's good. I mean, I don't know if he ripped it from something. I'm just kidding. no, radiators and drains. And I've completely plagiarized it and used it elsewhere. ⁓
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I just wrote it down. I'm going to use it.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, that's good. Sweet. Sam, did you have something else, man? I may have stepped on you there.
Sam Finney: No, you're good buddy. You're good. think all the informal discussion I got. Unless you got a follow up, Kev.
Kevin Epp: No, I'm good. Let's hit him with the three good golden questions, Doc Z.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Alright, here we go!
Sam Finney: Alright, so the first one is our lives are a compilation of people we know and books we read. Who's somebody dead or alive that's your hero and why?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: happen. I find the... Sadly deceased Army Ranger Pat Tillman to be very He his heart and soul doing something that he felt very strongly about, even though he ⁓ it was gonna have dire repercussions. He was very much aware of his own ⁓ but persevered and set a good example. So I'm very towards Tillman. The fellow who wrote the book about Pat Tillman was college climbing buddy, John Crackauer. interesting connection.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. I'm gonna have to read that one.
Kevin Epp: We should, I didn't know that you were climbing buddies with John Krakauer. You didn't do like Everest with him, did you?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: I have never climbed overseas. I've climbed in Alaska, Western Canada, Colorado, Wyoming, Yosemite, New Hampshire, New York State. climbing resume is Bush Lee compared to crack hours.
Kevin Epp: Yeah, crazy. Well, here we go, the second part of the question. So the people you meet and the books you read. So give us a book that has been most influential or an influential book in your life.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: think the single most influential book for me professionally was The Inner Game of Tennis by Tim Galway. This written in 1970. four or five. And back when I was an undergrad, term sports psychology didn't really exist. And so I deeply into that book. I think that's an excellent book. I will also recommend The Boys in the Boat by Dan Brown. I read a quote from book at the first in the Army of La Crosse locker room on the very first day of practice. Because this is the kind of experience you can have, fellas. So those are two.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. appreciate it. All we're moving on to question number two, Doc. So what was one low point in your life? What changes did you make to pull yourself out of it? And what lessons did you learn from it?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Okay, there was a low point in my life when I was working for a management consulting company way out in Western Canada. I had completed a project and they had sent me ⁓ the city of Vancouver for another project. But the ⁓ hadn't been completely agreed upon between my boss and the client company. So after like a week on site, it was like, you know, get out of here, we're not using you. And the had no other projects for me. ⁓ So basically dropped me like a hot potato. And this is, this is Vancouver, British Columbia. This is the other side of the country from what I'm accustomed to. left a teaching job in New Jersey to join this company way out in Vancouver, British Columbia. So it was, ⁓ that a pretty low moment. But curiously it was during that low moment that I decided, I think I'm going to get really serious about this sport psychology. field and go for it. And the rest, as they say, is history.
Sam Finney: well selfishly i'm very very glad that that happened to you we could be sitting here today chatting ⁓ awesome alright one for you is what is success to you
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: There you go. What is success? I like the famous John Wooden basketball coach definition. Success is the peace of mind derived from self satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could with what you had. That's what success is. Peace of mind derived from satisfaction, knowing you did the best you could with what you had.
Sam Finney: I'm embarrassed to say I have not heard that one.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: ⁓ you can Google John Wooden definition of success and you'll find a real nice video of the, you know, the fellow making that statement. That was his philosophy for, ⁓ don't know how many decades he coached, 10 championships in a row, something ridiculous.
Sam Finney: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, and I think it harkens back to, you know, the question earlier about comparing yourself to others ⁓ I mean, from that, from that quote, everything is what's inside and what did you do?
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Defining yourself from within. Not what society wants. Not what anybody else wants. Defining yourself from within. That's toll order, but it's worth pursuing. Hey, fellas, thanks so much, man, for letting me ⁓ on like this. This has been great.
Sam Finney: Yeah. No, absolutely, doc. Thank you. Thank you for your time. really, really appreciate it.
Kevin Epp: This is badass. I want to hang out. have like 100 more questions for you, but it spans the gambit from climbing to martial arts to psychedelics. But maybe that's another time. Doxy.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Anytime you know how to reach me now. And if you ever come east for whatever reason, when's your 20th class reunion or something?
Kevin Epp: Let's go. Let's go. Good night. It's coming up faster than we think. Hey, no, it was awesome talking to you, Doc. I always, I seriously appreciate you.
Nate Zinsser Alias Doc Z: Yeah. Likewise, fellas, honor of a lifetime to have spent the bulk of my professional career with y'all.
Sam Finney: Thank you.
