Episode 7: Non-billable Sessions Are Not Foreplay

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Welcome back to Clinically Chaotic with Erica and Tara.
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Today's episode is a special episode as we have a guest host with us.
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She is my coworker, my friend, and I'm gonna let her introduce herself and give a little bit of a background info about her education, credentials, and some of her work experience.
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Hello, my name is Leticia Fruitis.
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I am a M S W M A M H P L I C S W A.
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Pretty much what all those really long and boring letters mean is I've been doing this for quite some time.
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I've been in the field for about eight years.
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Um I've worked at my current job for about five and a half, six years almost.
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Before this, I worked in a residential treat facility with kids with a large variety and flavor of different kinds of behaviors.
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A little bit about my background.
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I came to this job.
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Uh, the same reason as a lot of us is because I had my own things that I've been working on and, you know, got pulled through.
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I kind of want to get back to the population that I wish I myself would have uh maybe had some support during my own struggle time.
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So yeah, that's a little about me.
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We're so happy to have you.
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Thank you for joining us.
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And we brought you something today.
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I know.
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I was like, where are you going?
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Come back.
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You do you want me to open it like right now?
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Yeah.
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Oh, right.
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I despise opening gifts and assigned people.
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So this is atrocious.
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Oh, this is so cute though.
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You guys, a frog.
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I it's cute.
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I have a variety of animal uh theme mugs.
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So this will go right next to my owl.
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That is also I'm sorry.
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Oh, I love getting gifts and it makes me uncomfortable and all at the same time.
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Anyways, thank you guys.
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This is so sweet.
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We just think it's important.
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It's fun, it kind of reduces a lot of the immediate stigma that people feel when they walk into your office.
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So to have anything sitting on your desk where somebody could be not so afraid.
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Oh, yeah.
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So some of my mugs are a little bit more sassy.
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So this is maybe a little bit more friendly one as well.
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Him, the owl, and the sass.
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And I'll have a whole lineup of all the things I'm needing.
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Perfect.
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I know today one of the really important things that we wanted to talk about and that people have been asking us to talk about for a while, because I think a lot of therapists in this field have a similar horror experience.
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I was hoping we could talk about dating in the field today.
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Dun dun dun.
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That's exactly what it feels like for everyone.
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And just kind of your experience, because I know that you do have a partner now, but then that wasn't always the case while you were going through school.
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No.
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Lord have Marcus.
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So I said I've been in the field for about eight years.
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During that time in the field, I've also had many versions of myself, right?
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And I think when you come to this job, you come in fresh, new for myself, little baby social worker.
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So there's my professional timeline, but my personal timeline.
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My dating life, unfortunately, was very reflecting of all of those things.
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I want to say when I started my mental health journey, I'm pretty sure I was, it's when I had kind of started my situationship era, you know.
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Truly the best one.
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We've all been traumatized by that little scenario.
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Unfortunately, a lot of the situationship eras, I attracted a lot of really emotionally unavailable men who were working on things and really trying to figure out what their goals were.
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And then as soon as it's like, well, what do you do?
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And I say to them, Well, I have a job pretty much where I exercise patiently with children all day who are trying to figure themselves out.
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Ding, ding, ding.
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You're so understanding.
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You're so nice.
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You just really get me.
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I can talk to you about anything.
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Mind you, me being on my front end, you know, validate, validate, validate the first thing we learn in any type of educational setting for mental health that came through really strong and tended to bleed into all the romantic scenarios I was in.
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Oh ma'am, I'm so sorry.
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I know that it's very easy.
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And I think a lot of us gravitate differently for different reasons.
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So for me personally, when I was dating very early on in grad school, I strayed away from anybody in the mental health field intentionally, because I was like, I don't want to talk about this all the time with someone else.
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And so my thought was if I'm not dating anybody in this field, maybe I just won't have to and I'll be able to have a really good separation.
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But I think similar to kind of what you ran into, it was, oh no, this is something people are actually really interested in.
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And not a lot of people have access to people like this in their life.
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So you say anything along the lines of what you do, and now you're their personal therapist, but they're not going to say that to you or realize that that's how they're using your relationship.
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And it's really awkward because I think people can do that very early on into getting to know you.
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And it's not appropriate to be on a second date and somebody just trauma dump on you.
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I'm having my own little flashback moment over here.
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You're so right.
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I love what you're saying right now because you're saying like you've kind of decided you don't want to have a partner that's in the field, right?
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Or that's something you intentionally try to stir away from.
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I think initially when I had started dating and started my mental health journey of like, you know, being in the field, I didn't have a preference like for either or.
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I want to say as I did it more, I realized I didn't want that preference because I didn't want to be constantly thinking about mental health and what I'm supposed to be doing or how hard the day was and actually engage in those self-care practices that we're told to do and engage in to take care of ourselves.
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Um, so I I wish I would have had that insight quicker on, kind of like you're sharing, you decided because I I like I said I have a partner and I've had my partner for about two and a half, almost three years.
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I'm very, I'm kind of grateful to not have a partner who's in the field currently.
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I think maybe this is where I differ a little from the two of you.
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And I think similar to Letty, I don't remember ever having a strong preference one way or another, dating inside or outside of the community mental health field or just mental health field in general.
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But I will say, especially being like a younger version of myself when I first started in the field, there was something like really fascinating and exciting to me to be able to relate to my partner in a certain way.
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I remember being able to come home from work and explain how my workday was, and my partner be able to have some level of understanding of what actually happens and takes place in my day-to-day work.
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Whereas sometimes if I'm explaining my workday or what I do to a family member or a friend that isn't super familiar with the field, there's like a disconnect in some way.
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They don't maybe have as deep of an understanding of kind of the things I'm exposed to on a day-to-day basis.
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I think in some way, being the person who has dated in the mental health field for the past several years, good and bad relationships, they all served me in some way.
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But I think that was something that I always gravitated towards simultaneously.
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I think there would be a certain type of luxury around dating someone who's kind of completely clueless about what goes on on the day-to-day basis because it is overwhelming.
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It could be a nice escape to be able to go home, connect with your partner, and kind of fully just like remove yourself from the work energy kind of world.
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Yeah.
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I get that.
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And that's what I have that disconnect.
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And it is nice.
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You're touching on something that is also important around someone who gets it, right?
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Because there are days that we have that are very heavy.
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We've heard some of the worst things that people experience, right?
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We carry sometimes when you come home and maybe your partner's also having a bad day.
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I could see the relatability around like, cool, we both had these, not cool, wrong word, but like, yes, I understand you have this hard day, I had this hard day.
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We do the same thing, we get it.
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And then on the other end, it's like when I have an emotionally hard day and my partner has a physically hard day at work because he does physical labor at work.
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I will admit there is a little bit of disconnect in those times where it's like, he's a, well, don't you sit on an office?
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I'm like, ah, rage.
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And with that being said, there's a little bit of ignorance there, right?
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Sorry.
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But there is, I would say, and there's been a lot of conversations around the understanding of my profession, what it entails, the mental, emotional, you know, exhaustion that comes with it.
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I guess my overall thought there would be like if you have a partner that's willing to hear where you're coming from, like in any relational dynamic, it shouldn't be problematic, right?
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We should all be respecting each other's troubles some days, regardless of what background or career we're in.
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And everyone should have a partner that respects those things.
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Yes, I agree with that.
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I will say one of the dynamics that really works in my relationship is that my partner's parents modeled a similar model.
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His dad isn't a therapist, but he always worked in a very high stress job, working just as much as we do, if not more, very customer-facing all the time and having to adapt to a lot of cultural differences.
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And his mom stayed at home with the boys growing up.
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So they had a dynamic similar to having one person who's consistently pretty exhausted from work.
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And to have that modeled, I think, was really beneficial for him in that he understands that their days kind of just have a code word, right?
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I just tell him it's like a dinner in the bathtub kind of night.
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And so he sets it all up for me and I have a whole bath tray and he knows like, don't talk to me when I enter the room.
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I need at least an hour of gonna watch a movie in the bathtub, and then I can be fully present.
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But because that was modeled for him, I think that has really translated well.
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That being said, I have not always had that.
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And of course, my dating experience maybe is a little bit different than yours because I wasn't officially a therapist when I was dating.
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I was just in the midst of grad school.
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But that sometimes was a nightmare.
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Not only were people trauma dumping on you, but the amount of information somebody would feel comfortable to relate to immediately was wild.
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I'm just thinking about so many things over here.
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And I think it's interesting how quickly people are once they figure out you do for a living, and not just trauma dumping, because I think when we think of trauma, we think of past, right?
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The previous experiences, also just the ongoing, current, relevant things where it's like, ooh, now I have access to like a free social worker and a free therapist and someone who understands the mental field health field and how to navigate these things.
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It's insane.
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Okay, I'm sorry.
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For example, men that have children.
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If I hear one more man say my crazy baby mom, like within the first three days I've met you or am engaging with you on a dating app or something, that was my red flag trauma story.
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Oh my goodness gracious experience.
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I feel like, especially on the apps, it was, oh, I see you have a kid.
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We start talking about the child, and now all of a sudden you've gone into a 20-minute spiral about how horrible your baby mom is and she's crazy, and I'd be there if she'd let me be there.
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And you're just like, there is nothing, there's no shade of green presence in anywhere in this chat now.
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Exit stage left.
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And so I feel like there's like, you know, when you're physically sitting with someone, there's the topics that would come up when you see therapists in that what's your job or occupation or whatever it says now on the dating sites.
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Like it's like a it's like a green light go for let me tell this person everything I've been through, what I'm currently going through, and what their life's gonna look like if they were to engage with me any further than this dating app.
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Yes.
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Oh man.
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I think similar to that, oftentimes what I would see or what I've heard from my friends who have gone through it is that all of a sudden it becomes this dynamic, even if it's not a trauma dump of, hey, what do I do all the time?
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Like somehow you're this superhuman outside of work and you'll figure it out no matter what.
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And I was like, I don't want to figure it out.
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I don't care what you do.
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I don't know you that well.
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We've met one time.
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Maybe we had a phone call at most.
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Do whatever you want to do.
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But to just constantly be asked by someone, it almost makes you that person's mom to begin with.
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And there's nothing less sexy than starting off dating somebody being in that mom role.
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The mom thing is is so real.
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And I think there's ways we show up for our partners, right?
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That are beneficial for like each individual relational dynamic.
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There's that versus like the from the beginning, all you see is like the caretaking.
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And like there's the physical caretaking things, right?
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That you already talk about in like traditional dynamic relational settings of one partner is maybe not doing as much and the other one's doing way more.
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And there's the physical load of like the things that are happening.
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But I think to start off, I don't know, once again, another red flag of just like starting off instantaneously of taking on another person's mental load is sad.
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It's sad, you know.
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If I'm being fully honest for myself, going back to that when I first started, there's a part of me that just did that anyway.
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I found myself in those dynamics where I would be doing the caretaking, giving the advice, being like, you know, you really have to then you get done with the phone call that you're on for an hour or something, or those romanticized phone calls.
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If we were on the phone for three hours, but the underlying tone was an unlike a non-billable session by the time you get off, like, ooh, not as romantic, not as cute.
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We're not, you know, 13 staying up late to like have that first initial phone call.
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And always one-sided.
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And I think there's something to be said kind of about dating within the mental health community.
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As therapists, as social workers, we have this natural kind of instinct to overextend ourselves at times, whether it's at work or in our personal lives.
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As therapists, a lot of our job is being really mindful about our own boundaries and kind of how we interact with others in relationships when we do come in contact with people who find out what we do for work and then kind of use that as an opportunity or avenue to connect with you in that way.
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In one way, they might think that they're kind of connecting with you when really it almost serves as kind of like an avenue for us to now overextend ourselves within that relationship.
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Because for us to take on the mental load of other people's problems or issues or stressors in a work setting, that's completely appropriate.
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However, when it then bleeds over into our personal, interpersonal relationships, romantic relationships, that's when I feel like things can become chaotic and unhealthy.
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I agree with that statement.
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I also hope that other people will maybe take away the perspective of what it would feel like to go on a first date and have the person that you are sitting with be like, hey, can you pitch me a sales pitch right now?
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Like that would be really uncomfortable.
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Nobody wants to work when they're not at work.
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And so really just treating everybody that way, I think is kind of the gold standard.
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It's definitely a recurring theme, I feel like.
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I wonder where it derives from, right?
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Like, is this a place of anxiety?
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Is this a place of fear?
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Is this a place of trying to connect with the person you're on a date with?
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It's kind of like when you tell someone you have a talent and they're like, well, can you show me?
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Or it's like, well, I like to sing.
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Well, can you sing me a song?
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Not in the middle of this public setting.
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No, it goes back to what you're saying of like, can you give me a sales pitch?
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Like, no, I don't want to do the thing I do for a profession on our first date or as we continue to date.
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And yes, I'm a therapist, but I don't want to sit here and give you a treatment plan.
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Or, oh dear lord, the what do you think I have?
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What do you have?
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What would you diagnose me with?
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And unfortunately, I think that's an overlap in the romantic scenario, in addition to the uh friendship scenario, but that could be a whole nother episode or a whole another time.
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That was a reoccurring thing too of, oh, it's the what do you think I have?
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Or it was the well, I have this.
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And then I go, oh, okay, try to be understanding.
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Do you see a therapist about that?
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Well, no, I've never been diagnosed, but like I know I have that.
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And I feel like that was another really common one I got when I was talking with men in the dating era before I was locked down, which sorry, I'm very grateful to be as we're reflecting on all these things.
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Like, I have a moment of gratefulness of like, wow, I'm really happy I don't have to be on any more of those apps and endure some of these like really painful conversations.
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Painful is the perfect way to describe it.
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I am curious though, because I think the feedback that we get a lot of the time is, oh wow, you're a therapist, and therefore all of your relationships and dates must be so good all the time, that you're so relatable that this part of your life was probably easy for you.
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So you just can't understand it.
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And I do have to ask, do you have a nightmare date story?
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Oh my God.
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I mean, you guys unfortunately am such a like go with the flow fun person that for a long time I got pulled into.
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Oh my gosh, actually, sorry.
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I was gonna say I've had a lot of non-dates where it's like, let's just hang out.
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.759
And because I am unfortunately that chill girl, I'm like, yeah, sure.
00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:27.200
I have been cheated of so many like actual first date experiences.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.200
Sorry, that was my first thought.
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.680
But now then I sure, sure, sure.
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:32.640
I'll reconnect.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.240
Horror date story.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.119
So this man was a paramedic.
00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:40.799
You would think you're enduring, you're caring, you take care.
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:44.559
You your job is literally to get people to the hospital to make sure they're okay, right?
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:46.319
Stable, all these things.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.240
Date seemed cool at first.
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:49.039
It was fine.
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.920
We were talking.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.039
This breach is a little bit on like lack of consent too.
00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:54.799
So yeah, big yikes.
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.200
Um, I remember we were, he's like, let's go on a walk.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:02.160
We were going on a walk around the bar we were at, and he was on trying to hold my hand.
00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:13.200
I think if you have any indication of anyone's physiological reactions where they don't want to be touched, aka if you go to touch someone and they pull away, that's a I don't want to be interacting with you physically.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:18.000
And he just kept like on trying to grab my hand over and over again and over and over again.
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:22.799
I remember at one point I shoved my hand in my pocket and he shoved his hand in my pocket.
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:31.599
And I was like, mind you, as it's we're in this dark place and we're walking around the block and I'm and then hits the fawn response of, okay.
00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:42.400
It was rough because I feel like so many of our conversations had been around me being understanding and the whole dialogue was like, I was so nice, I was so patient, I was so caring.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.680
And all these things I feel like went back to like what I did as a profession.
00:18:45.839 --> 00:19:03.279
And when we talk about our work days, when we had talked all these times before, then I feel like the lead up to that gives this presentation of like, oh, well, now I can kind of do what I want or say what I want because this person's gonna be kind and understanding and be really patient with me, even if I'm making them uncomfortable.
00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.839
And that was kind of like, gosh.
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:07.839
And then the interaction got progressively worse.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.240
I won't even go into it anymore after that.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:15.759
But I think it's just this we become almost these targets.
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:24.720
And it's like this extra layer of protection you have to use to be like, I'm not gonna deal with your shit just because I'm a professional who wants to support people.
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:28.000
Supporting and enabling a really poor behavior are two different things.
00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.759
Being a therapist, being a mental health professional is not about enabling a behavior.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:32.960
That's not what we do.
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.079
I get that.
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:45.440
I'll tell you my favorite nightmare story because I think it speaks to just how people can feel connected to us because we know how to do a lot of active listening.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:52.160
So I do want to just reframe for anybody, just because somebody's listening to you, that does not mean they're attracted to you.
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.480
And I wish everybody knew that.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:56.240
I went on a date.
00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:02.000
I was in grad school still, I had just moved, so I was already exhausted, but he was like, I just want to see you.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.640
Okay, that's like nice, I guess.
00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.680
So I go to this dinner, and while we're there, it's immediate to me that it's a hard no.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:20.000
Everything about him is like speaking over me, kind of like rolling his eyes at the waitress, all of these things that are just gross about how he treats other people.
00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:26.559
And he's giving me multiple examples about like feeling better than other people, which is a big ick for me.
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.559
Like, I don't know what to do because I'm like, we're at dinner and I've ordered food.
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.640
So like I'm stuck until this food comes.
00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:37.839
And I wish there was a part of my brain, because as a therapist, I would tell somebody, like, you're not stuck.
00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:44.559
Get up and go, walk up to the waitress, give her your card, say, Hey, that's my bill, let me pay it, and then leave.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:46.240
Tell them you're going to the bathroom.
00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:47.839
You don't owe this man anything.
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.119
And I certainly didn't, but I didn't have a therapist brain at the time.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:57.200
I love that you're sharing this part of the story because I think this reflects to the when people like to say, Well, you're a therapist.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:02.319
Well, you're a therapist, as if like we are not humans as well as you're going off your story.
00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:11.759
And kind of similar to mine is yes, we're therapists and we can give all the good advice and feedback and have all the positive conversations about change, but like you're still human when you're in these awkward situations.
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.680
You want to reduce the conflict, right?
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.759
You want to have a peaceful outcome of whatever it is.
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:16.240
I don't know.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:18.480
I feel like our stories are overlapping in that way as well.
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:19.599
So definitely.
00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:28.960
I think there's just a part of you that is naturally empathetic and like, I don't like you, but I don't want to hurt you, even though this whole situation is weird.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:35.039
So I just do the one thing that I do when I don't want to be in a situation with a guy who is not picking up on feedback.
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:36.480
I just start to lie.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.200
How do I make myself seem the least attractive in any capacity?
00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:53.440
So I'm start talking about kids and like wanting kids and being so tied and how I love to meet families, just like really aggressive behavior that would give most people the ick.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:55.680
Did you pull out your wedding Pinterest board?
00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.839
I didn't, but I did talk about it.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.440
It was yeah.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:02.000
So I pulled out all the stops.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:07.440
If I was sitting on the other side of the table, I'd be like, oh, the intensity of this person is not appropriate.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:11.519
But he was into it, which was the biggest red flag of all time.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:12.960
And I was like, oh no.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:16.640
Cause at that point in time, I had used all the defenses I could think of.
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.960
So then he pulled out his wedding Pinterest board.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:19.279
Yeah.
00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:20.319
It was mutual.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.279
He was like, my family, we're all getting together in two weeks.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.079
And I was like, oh no, this is not good.
00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.519
So he's like, can I walk you to your car at the end of all of it?
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:30.240
Oh, sorry.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:31.759
Before that, he insists on paying.
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.079
And I go, We could like split it though.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:34.960
No, no, no.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:35.519
I've got this.
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.480
I just had so much fun with your are you sure?
00:22:38.799 --> 00:22:40.400
And he was apparently.
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:46.640
So he pays for it, which immediately my brain is like, oh no, he's gonna feel entitled to something.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:49.119
And so he's like, Can I walk you out to your car?
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.279
And I was like, No, I'm super good.
00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:52.480
I know where my car is.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:53.680
He was like, It's dark out.
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.119
And I was like, Oh, I'm not afraid of the dark, so I'll be okay.
00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:04.799
And then he goes, No, no, no, I'm gonna walk you, which should have been the red flag that like, hey, he's being pushy, you're saying no.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.440
And this is the time that you could be like, Hey, fuck you.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:08.720
But I didn't do that.
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.839
It's okay, let's walk to my car in the dark in a parking lot.
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.200
And so we're walking over and he tries to hold my hand and I just start swaying it a lot because that makes it more difficult.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:24.160
And so we go, and I was like, This is me, gotta go.
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:27.599
And he goes in for the kiss.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.240
And it's thank god there was a height difference.
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.440
I'm so awkward, I just dock down.
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:34.319
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.240
And he's like shocked, looking at me with these big eyes.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:46.000
We're making direct eye contact, and I just walk all the way backwards to my car in slow motion and open it behind me and get in and drive away.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:53.440
He texts me two days later and is like, hey, so I know that it was kind of awkward towards the end, but maybe you were just tired.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:55.440
Did you want to hang out again?
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:04.480
I do not understand how a man can misinterpret what you just described to me as like a gazelle backing away from a like wild predator.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:08.319
So I'm not sure where the misinterpretation where that one came from.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:09.519
Oh, it was wild.
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:11.440
I think it was just the act of listening.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.640
It sends like a weird signal to people's brains.
00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:20.160
The act of listening and courtesy, yes, does not mean I want to date you.
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:21.039
I like you.
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:27.119
If our clients took that same understanding, every single client we had would be in love with us.
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:28.160
You know what I mean?
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:30.720
I can understand it, but also I can't at the same time.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:35.279
Cause it's like if you know I do this, you're acknowledging that I do this as a profession, right?
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:36.880
Not that our interaction isn't genuine.
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:38.480
I want to hear what you have to say.
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:39.039
I care.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.279
I'm here on my own accord in my own time.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.599
If you know I'm a good listener for a living, that's I'm listening.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:46.799
Like that's that's it.
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:50.559
And anything else is gonna be explored later on as we move through this.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:52.480
Yeah, it's a reflexive skill.
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.640
It's not something I'm doing just because I'm super into what you're saying.
00:24:57.039 --> 00:25:11.440
I'd say that both of your guys' stories sound pretty horrifying to me, just based on the sole fact that you're having to go on dates with men, which, like granted, women can be just as terrifying and off-putting.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:20.000
And I can think of many of my own strange dating issues with women, but both of your stories sound equally horrifying.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:20.880
None of that?
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:24.799
You always got a little bit more self-care and mindfulness around interaction.
00:25:25.119 --> 00:25:33.440
I have like one random experience I remember after getting out of a long-term relationship a couple of years ago.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:38.559
Um, I was just starting to get back into the idea of hanging out, meeting up.
00:25:38.799 --> 00:25:48.559
I think when like lesbians meet up, there's a little less pressure to have to go meet in like a public spot where, you know, because I'm not really worried about some duck.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.880
Yeah, some chick could, you know, kidnapping me.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:51.599
Like, good luck.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:57.839
Um so I remember I just kind of, I think I was on hinge and I'd found a girl.
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.400
Her and I started chatting for a couple days.
00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.440
And I remember it was right around Christmas time.
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:10.000
Um she had asked me what I was doing, and I was at home putting up Christmas decorations and robbing presents.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:17.920
She had asked if I need any needed any help, uh, which I was like, actually, yeah, this is less pressure for me than having to go out with you.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.279
So I let her come over for the first time that we had met.
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:25.119
We had talked and she knew that I was studying to be a therapist.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.720
We were chatting, I was like putting ornaments on my Christmas tree.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.720
I had asked her what brought her to the area because she was new.
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:36.880
She had like just moved to Seattle from like Texas or something.
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:52.160
And she tells me that she had also just gotten out of a really long-term relationship, separated from her girlfriend, and had kind of uprooted her entire life, moved from Texas to Seattle to kind of have a big start over.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.599
I had known that she was new to the area because she had transitioned after a breakup.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.160
I had just not clarified like timeline how long it had been.
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.279
So she was over, she was helping me wrap some gifts.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:08.799
I had asked her kind of what happened with her previous relationship.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:12.240
Very brief, expecting, you know, a brief response.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:43.200
And sure enough, that turned into a two-hour session where at some point she was, you know, sobbing on my living room floor, talking about oh, she was heartbroken and just left her whole life behind for the her ex-girlfriend who she hopes that one day they find their way back to each other, which is pretty much, I mean, for the most part, 95% of lesbians I've ever met in my life have this narrative in their head that eventually one of their ex-girlfriends will come back and they will live happily ever after.
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:51.200
So I remember at the end of that kind of hangout experience, it was getting late.
00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:53.680
I'd said, like, okay, I'm gonna get ready for bed.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.839
She was like, you know, she did kind of acknowledge, sorry, I just, you know, unloaded on you, but like that was really good.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:01.200
I needed to get that out.
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:03.200
Thank you for listening.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:08.640
And then I remember she asked me very formally if she could kiss me.
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:16.480
And I declined, which in my head at this moment, I still was kind of anticipating seeing her again.
00:28:16.720 --> 00:28:31.599
And I remember like the following day, she had texted me, not just to check in on me or make conversation, but she was giving me updates on how she was doing with managing her feelings around this breakup and the grief.
00:28:31.839 --> 00:28:38.640
All right, this has officially become like a oh, we're checking in about her, you know, mental health status and where she's at right now.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:40.720
We're not actually connecting.
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:56.240
And so that obviously ended up going nowhere, but it was um girls can be just, you know, tricky because it is just easy to sit there and yap and and chat, and the dynamic can flip-flop pretty quickly.
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.079
It's a different kind of pressure, I imagine, because she was kind.
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:05.279
It's different than maybe a man who's actively being kind of a dick.
00:29:05.599 --> 00:29:06.400
Yeah, absolutely.
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.960
Nothing she was saying wasn't very relatable to me.
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:21.599
I too have been through breakups where I've uprooted my life or, you know, have experienced so much grief and then looked to other relationships or people to help kind of put a band-aid over that grief and pain.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:28.240
So I was very clearly able to see kind of the space that she was in and what she was needing and what she was doing.
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:38.400
I have to wonder if that date, hangout experience, whatever you want to call it, would have gone like that had I not told her that I was studying to be a therapist.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:42.000
You know, would she have told all that if I had said I was in marketing?
00:29:42.160 --> 00:29:43.279
It's a fair question.
00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:49.279
Regardless, it's always going to be a hard situation because it's the weird, do I lie about what I do?
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.559
But then if I do and it gets serious, that's really awkward.
00:29:52.640 --> 00:30:05.440
Cause then you have to go back to this new potential partner and be like, hey, so on my first date, when when you asked what I did, uh I lied to you because I didn't want you to tell me about your life like that.
00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:09.440
And I don't know how that would go for somebody either.
00:30:09.519 --> 00:30:11.920
And so it really is such a fine line.
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:22.720
Yes, and I think depending on what your intentions are for an interaction with a human, you know, maybe you too lie.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:29.440
Because as Tara was explaining that story, I have a little flashback to a, you know, we all have a Vegas story.
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.640
What are you gonna do?
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:32.319
A little live a little.
00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:38.160
I'm recalling uh interaction I had with a gentleman who was very kind, very sweet, very polite.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:42.079
Also at one point, the what do you do?
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:43.440
I work with kids.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:46.880
I'm a therapist, I do da-da-da, you know, da-da-da-da-da-da.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:31:04.640
I don't know how, but during said endeavors, there was multiple commentary about him getting out of a 10-year relationship and how he just doesn't know what he's gonna do now at this life and this family pressure of career goals and all these things.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:13.839
And I'm like, that is a bold thing to share with someone you just met who you were very vulnerable with as we are in this Vegas hotel room.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:17.839
Wow, you really just rolled the dice on what you wanted to share there, huh, buddy?
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.119
And so I don't know.
00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:29.759
Maybe if I would have been like, I'm actually a sandwich artist at Subway, maybe that wouldn't have been the conversation we had, or I don't know, literally anything else.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.960
Maybe that would have saved me in that particular situation.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:34.240
I would have lied.
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:35.279
I wish I would have.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:35.920
I don't know.
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:38.880
I could have gone without that conversation in my life.
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:44.319
So what I'm hearing is the therapist advice this week is uh lie a little bit more to people.
00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:45.680
I think you're allowed to.
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:54.799
And being a therapist doesn't, I think that's the other thing is being a therapist does not mean you have to tell everyone about yourself or your boundaries or whatever.
00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:01.759
When we meet with clients and we talk about identifying boundaries and knowing what your boundaries are, being open in communication.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:09.759
That is a that is mostly applicable to like individuals you want to maintain a relationship with or individuals you have to engage with.
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:21.200
You don't have to necessarily have this super open, honest, really vulnerable conversations around boundaries and your needs and who you are and what you do with every single person you engage with.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.839
That would be exhausting, right?
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:30.960
If you're any person you go to the grocery store, you're not telling Tammy, who's scanning your Cheerios about all these deepest things in your life, right?
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:38.720
If I'm going on a date for the first time or I'm having a hookup with someone, I don't need to tell you all this information because this interaction is like what it is.
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:42.160
It's only to meet said need and we're gonna move forward after that.
00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:51.440
So I'd say honestly, if you're dating someone and it's not, you know it's not gonna end up going there, you don't need to have the conversation about necessarily what you do.
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:57.920
You don't have to put on your best therapist hat when you're interacting and just be a human and exist in those interactions.
00:32:58.480 --> 00:32:58.799
Okay.
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:03.680
What is your answer then when somebody says, what do you do?
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.640
And you know that you don't want to tell them.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:16.319
I think a good middle ground where the the a little lie is I work with kids because I do, because I typically work with the child population.
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:19.200
Most of the youths I work with are 21 and young and younger.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:24.640
It depends on the scenario, but sometimes people will ask more and I will continue to gauge and give little teeny tides.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.160
So I work in the community with kids.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.759
And then we kind of keep to go on there depending on how the conversation's going.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:36.960
But I will say there is a drastic difference in response I get with I work with kids versus I'm a therapist.
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:43.200
And those responses vary intensively, including the um type of respect I get from folks as well.
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:48.880
There seems to be a, oh, when it's an I'm a therapist, and like a okay, when I say I work with kids.
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:55.359
And so it's almost like hiding my credentials away kind of keeps me safe in some interactions, romantically and not romantically.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.400
Definitely.
00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:57.599
I think I've received that.
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.240
Gosh, my voice just cracked, like a 12-year-old boy.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:01.119
Sorry, guys.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.759
I think I've received that as well.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:07.759
That as soon as I say what I do, because we are fairly young in the field.
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:13.599
And a lot of times people look at a therapist and they think this is like a 65-year-old woman plus.
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:21.679
And so as soon as I say that, or when somebody asks me, it is the, oh, and then they're so much nicer to you.
00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:28.480
I wish people would realize like I clock that and I now don't respect you.
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.000
I'm thinking of how you had shared your horror date story about like a guy who is treating the waiter poorly, right?
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:42.960
It's kind of like if you, when you tell someone what you do and they have like a weird reaction about it, it's gonna give you a lot of, I know we're not supposed to assume, right?
00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:50.480
But it's gonna create a narrative in your story about how that person treats people, how they value people and their knowledge, experience, education, all those different things.
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:58.559
I think it's funny as we're talking about a lot of these things too, you guys, because in all honesty, my my boyfriend, love him, right?
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:06.480
When we first started dating and we first had that kickoff conversation on Hinge, uh, he was actually not thrilled that I was a therapist.
00:35:06.639 --> 00:35:13.440
And he kind of had a very different extreme narrative of, so are you just gonna like psychoanalyze me and tell everything that's wrong with me?
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:17.679
And I will say there was a lot of conversation there, and I love a good challenge.
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:24.719
So I took that as an opportunity to engage in that banter, which we have happily carried throughout the duration of our relationship.
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:35.440
He was the only one that gave me the other one of almost a fear, because I think there's that, there is a perception for some people of like, well, if I date a therapist, they're going to tell me what's wrong with me.
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.199
They're going to assume all these things.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:39.840
They're going to try to tell me how to get my life on track.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.679
The funny thing about that is, which he has very much learned now, is we don't want to do that.
00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:46.480
Like I just did that with some kids, at least for me, all day long.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.960
I don't want to come tell an adult how they need to live their life.
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:58.719
There's a difference between a collaborative conversation with your partner about what our goals are, how we're moving forward, and let me make you a treatment plan of what you need to work on so you can be successful in your existence.
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:00.079
That's a nightmare.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:01.519
I hate every part of that.
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.800
And I get being on the other side where that would be a fear for people.
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:17.039
I will say one of the biggest things that I think a lot of therapists are mindful of, and I know there are some that are not, is that we really understand why you don't date for potential.
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.639
So I cannot preach that enough to people.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.960
Oh, they'll be better one day.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.480
Oh, this will happen.
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:27.360
You should date them exactly as they are.
00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:31.440
And I always enter with that mindset of are you tolerable this way?
00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:35.760
If you improve in certain areas of your life, that's super awesome.
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:40.000
But I don't expect you to change as a person for me because of what I do.
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:40.800
Mm-hmm.
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:51.280
I think there is a difference between that and dating someone who knows what they want to work on, is actually working in on that and is in therapy with a therapist.
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:52.320
That is not you.
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:54.000
You should work on those things.
00:36:54.079 --> 00:37:03.519
There's the dating the guy for potential who won't acknowledge his problems, who thinks they don't exist and thinks you're just telling him what to do or telling them what to do because you're the therapist.
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:09.840
And then there's the person that's actively working on goals and their steps, and that doesn't need to involve you.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.519
That's their own personal journey.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:14.559
For me, I think there is a big difference in that as well.
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:23.760
I would hope also that people don't have the perception, I'm not gonna try to date a therapist because I'm working on things and they're gonna think like I'm broken or I'm not good enough because I'm on my personal journey.
00:37:23.840 --> 00:37:29.360
And it's like, boo, if you're dating a therapist, we've already probably done or are still actively in our healing journey.
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:34.880
Because if I don't know about you guys, uh the longer I'm a therapist, the more I'm like, damn, guess I'm gonna need to work on that one still.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:39.280
It's just like flipping over rocks and finding fun prizes that you cannot return.
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:40.960
Where's the return receipt for this?
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.320
Because I don't want this issue and I don't want to have to deal with it.
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:45.599
Definitely that.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:53.679
And Jesse's dating stories are a really good example of the fact that we're not perfect people and we don't expect that from other people.
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:56.000
Can I take you both on a hard left though?
00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:56.880
Absolutely.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:01.039
Okay, because sometimes talking dating can be fun, but also very hard.
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:04.480
And I want to take you into something a little bit lighter.
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:11.280
So at the end of every episode, we always talk about our good things of the week or something you're looking forward to.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:14.480
Everything that's heavy has to come with something a little bit lighter.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:21.119
So, what is something that you're looking forward to or something great that's happened to you in the last week?
00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:22.639
Hmm.
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:26.480
A lot of people hit seasonal sadness, right?
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:28.559
When the cold hits, we're in the PNW.
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:30.960
It gets chilly, it gets rainy, it gets spooky.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.280
This is my favorite time of year.
00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:35.119
Spooky season is upon us.
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:41.679
It is the month of October, and honestly, since October 1 hit 10-1, I've been in a spectacular mood.
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:48.159
So I um am going to be going to the local haunted derive-in, and I'm really excited for that.
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.440
And honestly, just I'm gonna paint some spooky things.
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.960
I made a huge cutout of Oogie Boogie that I'm gonna put in my front yard.
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:56.320
Yeah, he's taller than I am.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:57.440
I'm not very tall.
00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:58.559
That's not hard to do.
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:06.400
Just celebrating this season and working on that, like that is my self-care because I'm a lively, exciting, seasonal individual.
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.840
So that will be what I'll be planning my flag on all month long.
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:11.280
What about you, Tara?
00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:17.039
Um actually, as soon as Letty started speaking, I was like, damn, she took mine because that's exactly what I was thinking.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.039
I don't thrive during the summer.
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:23.119
I'm not a hot weather, sunny day type of gal.
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:34.800
I love the rain, I love the gloom, I love that when I take my dog out for her walk in the morning, it feels chilly enough to the point where I have to put on the cozy sweater.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:45.519
Um, I just recently moved all my beanies and boots into the front row of my closet because I am ready to be in the cozy clothes.
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:52.639
And so my whole neighborhood this week has just been filled with the leaves all over the sidewalks.
00:39:52.800 --> 00:40:00.400
Um, everything just looks beautiful and like the air has like a certain level of crisp in it or something.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:02.480
I believe it's it's sweather weather.
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:03.840
Yes, sweather weather.
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.639
I love everything foggy.
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:15.679
Driving here this morning, there was super thick fog on the road, and it made me so excited, and it immediately took me mentally back to a place of being a child.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:27.039
I don't know if you guys ever watched Scooby-Doo growing up, but you always think about the end of the episode where they'd be in somewhere and he would take that little knife or his tail that he turned into a knife and cut the donut out of the fog.
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:29.360
And I always thought that was so funny as a child.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:35.119
So anytime I see something foggy is the good immediate memory of laughing to that hysterically as a kid.
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.559
And so I think that was my good thing of the week.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.920
I do have to say it's for me, it is that same.
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:42.480
That's so funny.
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:44.480
It's that same core Scooby-Doo memory.
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:47.760
Um, it's that or you know, Twilight.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.239
Yes.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.920
The whoa, whoa, whoa.
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:52.719
One of the two.
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:57.840
That being said, we won't keep you any longer because I think it's just that time.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:00.000
It is what it is.