Listening Isn’t Fixing: Creating Space for Presence in the Classroom with Kathryn Pannepacker

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Kathryn: I feel like we're in this
time of needing to fix people.
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Well, we're not broken.
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None of us are broken.
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We're just really wanting to be that
of care for one another because like
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often behind anger is often fear,
so it is just a matter of presence.
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Welcome to the Classroom Narratives
Healing and Education Podcast.
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The space for Education Meets Resilience.
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I'm Dr. Joey Weisler, and in each episode
we dive deep into the personal stories
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of educators, students, leaders, and
frontline advocates who are navigating
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the complexities within modern education.
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Whether you're just starting your teaching
journey or are a seasoned professional
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looking for inspiration, we'll explore
how to foster meaningful change, prevent
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burnout, and build trauma-informed
communities within our schools.
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Now, let's take a seat at the front
of the classroom as we get started.
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joey: On today's classroom
narratives episode, I'm joined
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by Kathryn Pannepacker, a textile
and community engaged artist who's
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work explores how art making,
listening, and relationship building
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intersect within community spaces.
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And Kathryn is a contributor to
the Anthology, "Art as Restorative
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Practice," which has been edited
by Lisa kay and Bev Johns,
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both wonderful guests here on this show.
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we'll link their episodes
no show notes as well.
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And I reached out to Kathryn because her
chapter is titled, "Community Healing
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through Intentional Listening." And that
one phrase alone raised a lot of important
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questions from me, particularly in what it
means to think about listening, not just
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as a skill, but also as a practice that
can help shape our community experiences.
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So through projects like the Listening
Loom and her broader community based work,
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Kathryn, invite us to reflect about how
we ask questions, how we listen, and how
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such actions might influence belonging,
care, and connection across settings.
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So Katherine, thank you so much
for joining us today in terms of
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how we approach communities and
the role that art has in those
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different types of relationships.
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Kathryn: Mm. Joey, thank you.
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It's really a delight to be here with you.
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I appreciate the welcome.
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Thank you for the welcome.
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joey: Yeah, absolutely.
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And a special shout out to Lisa
Kay as well for also continuing
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to bridge our connections.
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We always love being three
degrees of separation, as we say.
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Kathryn: It truly is.
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Yeah.
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I also wanted to give a shout
out to my collaborator on the
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project, uh Tieshka Smith.
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Yeah who wrote the article, the
introduction about our project that
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we'll talk about, the listening
loom, that I created years ago.
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Yeah,
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joey: absolutely.
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And that might be a good place to start.
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Well, we'll do that.
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Second, my first question is, so
as I was just mentioning to Kathryn
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that I am a writing professor.
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And as a writing professor, and working
in the humanities space has us think all
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the time about how to invite students'
emotions into their practices in ways
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that are both safe and meaningful.
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And as a writing professor, whenever
I get a piece of writing that I feel
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is trying to speak to me beyond the
academic requirement of that, I'll pull
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the student aside and I'll say, Hey, I
see what you've offered me through your
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writing, and I just want you to know
that I'm present and I'm listening.
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So again, one of the reasons why I
became in touch with Kathryn is because
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I realized that the title of your
article, your Contribution is Community
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Healing Through Intentional Listening.
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And remember that the anthology
itself is about restorative practices.
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So for our listeners who are focusing
on this idea, perhaps for the first
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time, either rather they're educators,
maybe they could be artists or even
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caregivers, what does that actually mean?
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Community healing through
intentional listening.
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What does that mean in practice
and what does make listening to
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be intentional and even as you
indicate to be healing for some?
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Kathryn: Hmm.
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Gosh, great question.
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Thank you.
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Sort of the, the silent pause, right?
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joey: Yeah.
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Kathryn: I think like intentional
listening is really just presence.
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It's noticing, it's
looking, it's observing.
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It's having the opportunity to
just connect with someone, to
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look at someone to ask questions.
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Yeah.
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And not just think about
what we're gonna say next.
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It's a sort of probe deeper to care.
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joey: Mm-hmm.
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Kathryn: These kinds of little
opportunities of how are you doing?
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What do you need?
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Such that the listening loom does is often
just a moment of slowing the pace down and
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touching base with the moment, you know?
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Yeah.
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I think of, I think of the word moment
in the other word, momentum, and how
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momentum is really moment by moment.
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And I think of that word momentum.
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It's like tum tummy, tummy, gut.
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Yeah.
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Intention, intuition, heart, core,
so how can we ourselves really
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take on a practice personally of
being so present in our spirit, our
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heart to be with another person.
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So in the classroom, I see this a
lot across the table, around the
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studio with folks that I engage with
that might be an active addiction or
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that are unsheltered or seniors that
I've engaged with, that are often
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just parked in front of a TV set.
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How can we step back, not
step back physically so much?
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Sometimes it, it needs that, but,
you know, just really sort of step
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back from ourselves and step forward.
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How can we lean in to listen, to
listen to probe in a gentle way.
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joey: Yeah.
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Kathryn: Yeah.
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joey: Thank you so much for that.
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And as part of the work that you've
done with intentional listening, we've
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also had some time in our pre-chat to
speak about the Listening Loom, and
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that has been a major, and also I'll
even say a neutral anchor and connector
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that has existed in the art space.
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So tell us, for our listeners, starting
from scratch, if you will, a little bit
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about the Listening Loom and some of what
has emerged in translating, listening
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to something that has been tactical and
visual in a way that lets people be heard.
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Kathryn: Sure.
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Yeah.
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I, I guess, you know.
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A lot of times how, how projects
come over me are just like these aha
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moments or like these sort of like
angel inspired moments, you know?
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So I think I was literally like, it, like
all of us, like in the middle of lockdown
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with COVID many years ago, not that many
years ago, but feeling really disconnected
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and aware that we're all feeling really
disconnected and I wanted to get outside
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with myself and just connect with folks.
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So protests were happening with
George Floyd and the COVID and the
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economy was going through it was
just like a whirlwind of stuff.
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So I literally brought my standing loom,
which is not more than, I don't know, four
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feet tall or such, with, uh, uh, I warped
it up with some string and yarns and such.
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I'm a weaver in my studio.
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I weave, I paint, I do all sorts of
art practices, but primarily I'm a
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weaver, an artist and an uplifter.
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Let me just say it like that is
how I like to think of myself.
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'cause I, I also paint, but with
the listening loom, so I brought
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up my loom, which is kind of
a curious thing anyway, right?
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Like, what the heck is a loom
doing, you know, at a busy
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intersection in Germantown, which
is a neighborhood of Philadelphia,
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you know, buses coming and going.
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So, the listening room was really a loom.
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And two stools and myself and something
else we can talk about, which is the
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healing blanket, which is mm-hmm.
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You know, a blanket that my mom knit that
that particular iteration was the healing
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blanket is a blanket that my mom knit.
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And anyway, so it's, creating like a
little corner of the world of sanctuary.
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That's really what it is.
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And the busyness of life.
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How to create a Zen
space . Sanctuary studio.
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There's so much chaos and turbulence
and overwhelm and rush and
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hecticness and pressure and urgency.
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Right?
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That I just feel like my initial
desire was to set up my loom in
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the thick of that and in the center
of that and just give it a whirl.
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And so that's what I did.
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Mm-hmm.
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I loaded my loom and the two stools and
such on a tricycle that I zip around
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on from time to time, and then I, I, I
set up the loom and, and the listening
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loom, is just like creating sanctuary,
creating studio, creating a little zone
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and, I ask two simple questions.
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How are you doing?
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joey: Mm-hmm.
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Kathryn: And what do you need?
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And so that has taken on
all sorts of iterations.
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Whether it was, how it started
with being in Germantown with folks
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coming and going with the overwhelm
of COVID and getting back into life
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and such, asking those questions.
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And what I found was people were like
I was already saying, overwhelmed and
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tired and exhausted, but also like ready
to get back to it and wanting to engage
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and wanting to connect and, but how?
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And then, what do you need?
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It was like this vortex moment of
gentleness, maybe quietness welcome, I
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had like a little basket that I would
have on, on the ground there with next to
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the stools if someone didn't have time to
sit down at the stool and engage with me
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and watch me weave in as we were talking.
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You know, sometimes it would just be like
handing them, a little laminated card,
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for example, that might say something
simple like, listen to the bird sing,
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or be your awesome self or it's okay.
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It's really okay.
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Be gentle with yourself.
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I'll tell you about having the opportunity
with my colleague Tieshka Smith
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and when the war broke out in Ukraine,
it was like, dear God, what can we do?
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So my colleague and I, we set up a
thought and idea to find a neighborhood
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in the far northeast in Philadelphia,
Summerton neighborhood, where there's
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many refugees and immigrants and folks
that have been displaced from the
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war that are in the far northeast.
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And we wanted to set up the listening
loom there and connect with the
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community, connect with the neighborhood.
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It was a perfect location.
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We had the support to figure
out where to set it up.
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So through networks for training
and development and others, we were
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able to find this school right in
this neighborhood where there were
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these beautiful families with all
sorts of culture and uniqueness with
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music and food and art and culture.
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And then set up a whole studio to
have creative connection and play
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opportunities for the children to
draw and color patterns of Ukrainian
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textiles to do weaving with chalk on
the pavement we had sun flowers that
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were the color of the Ukrainian flower.
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We had a map up there on the
fence where folks could like pin
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in the area where they were from.
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In that particular neighborhood,
there was, you know, folks from
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all over the world, particularly,
Ukraine, Maldovia, Yugoslavia, Russia.
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I mean, such conflict, such
intensity, such conversations
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that we were having with folks.
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So it's like, how to create an environment
of welcome when there's a lot of
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confusion and tension and sadness.
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So by having the loom there, by having
the two stools and the welcome for
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sometimes it was the kids or the
teenager, sometimes it was the parents
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that would come by after they dropped
off their kids, they would circle
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back around, they would recognize
the colors of the flag of Ukraine and
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they would just wanna sit and talk.
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Just real heart to heart conversations
with folks of how are you doing?
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And then what do you need?
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Um, Joey, what we found is that,
folks really welcomed being listened
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to, sometimes we didn't understand.
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We had a translator there, so we
had just for folks to have someone
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listening, next to me that understood
what they were saying, if they
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couldn't speak in English, but
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Tieshka was taking these
beautiful photographs of all the
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activities that we were doing.
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We had other gatherings of music
and another celebration of our
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project up there, of having food that
was recognizable to the families.
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And what one of the things that we found
was, folks really wanted, some support
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they wanted to learn more English.
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They were feeling overwhelmed with
how to get in touch with people.
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So the listening loom was that neutral
spot that could be a connector for folks.
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joey: And this was all done, by
the way, for our listeners in
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Philadelphia in the USA as well.
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Kathryn: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Yeah,
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joey: and I love that you mentioned
that word connector, especially
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through the projects that you've done.
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Because my next question, and as a
natural transition as well, was how are
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you working to navigate, we can even
say that tension between trying to show
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up authentically for a community and
also heal your own boundaries as this
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facilitator as well, when you're taking
the stories and trying to find ways to not
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internalize those from people around you.
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So as a community healer like
yourself, how do you focus on
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sustainable care in this line of work?
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And how does continuing to network
and build connections matter?
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How do you engage with that?
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Kathryn: Hmm.
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Huge question
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joey: with many parts.
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Kathryn: Question.
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joey: Yes.
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Kathryn: And really
poignant for the times too.
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I'd like to keep this real personal
it's really important for all of us as
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Uplifters and educators and connectors,
as artists, it's an inside job.
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It's like, how do we take care of
ourselves, so that we can be present
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with others when we have those
opportunities to be present with others.
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So like for the last nine years I've
been working front lines, doing art
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as harm reduction with folks in active
addiction, folks that are unsheltered
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and things that we were talking about.
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:04.429
It's like how ways of connecting.
00:14:04.929 --> 00:14:07.649
I just feel so raw with
emotion with all this.
00:14:07.699 --> 00:14:12.259
because you, you feel like you,
you're doing your absolute damnedest
00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:17.149
to care for folks and we are
in broken systems, right?
00:14:17.269 --> 00:14:17.359
joey: Mm-hmm.
00:14:17.659 --> 00:14:22.280
Kathryn: So the education system is
crumbling and we're all doing our best to
00:14:22.280 --> 00:14:24.779
connect with people that we engage with.
00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:30.409
Our social systems are broken, the
revolving door of, of the jail system
00:14:30.409 --> 00:14:34.919
and recovery system and addiction
and, and support and mental health.
00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:40.079
And, you know, there's just like,
there, there's so many systems that
00:14:40.079 --> 00:14:43.049
are sort of unraveling right now and
00:14:43.129 --> 00:14:48.977
how can we be such a part of it as we
are engaged, doing our best, to create
00:14:48.977 --> 00:14:54.237
a sense of belonging and connection and
purpose and meaning, how do we keep care
00:14:54.237 --> 00:14:59.446
of ourselves so that we can bring our
full selves to those situations, where we
00:14:59.446 --> 00:15:03.666
can, like, as you were saying, with your
student, with the writing, you can read
00:15:03.666 --> 00:15:08.596
something really intently and then step
back from it and pause and then go back
00:15:08.596 --> 00:15:13.506
in and connect with that student, and
even just recognize, like I read what you
00:15:13.516 --> 00:15:15.861
wrote, do you wanna share more about it?
00:15:15.861 --> 00:15:20.681
So like, around the table, for example,
these like sanctuary studios of, of Art
00:15:20.681 --> 00:15:25.381
is Harm Reduction with my other colleague
Lisa Kelly it's like, you know, building
00:15:25.381 --> 00:15:29.651
connections with folks, and really
observing and listening and watching.
00:15:29.651 --> 00:15:33.398
So it's like I might see someone
sitting at a table and that their
00:15:33.398 --> 00:15:37.298
hands need wound care, for example.
00:15:37.508 --> 00:15:37.688
joey: Yeah.
00:15:37.688 --> 00:15:40.918
Kathryn: You know, or they're in
need of clean socks or whatever
00:15:40.918 --> 00:15:42.958
it be that we're not desensitized.
00:15:42.958 --> 00:15:45.238
That we are completely present.
00:15:45.428 --> 00:15:51.287
And that we are giving those moments to
really observe and watch and then be a
00:15:51.287 --> 00:15:54.197
connector to the services best we can.
00:15:54.664 --> 00:15:59.044
Because of the intensity sometimes
of it all, we have to really
00:15:59.234 --> 00:16:01.214
do our own inner work also.
00:16:01.514 --> 00:16:03.154
Always often.
00:16:03.694 --> 00:16:03.784
Yeah.
00:16:04.409 --> 00:16:06.749
And take a pivot and
take a pause, you know?
00:16:07.139 --> 00:16:09.749
And that's what I'm
intentionally doing right now.
00:16:09.749 --> 00:16:12.954
I'm just sort of just taking
care of myself, you know?
00:16:13.074 --> 00:16:17.061
joey: I was telling Kathryn that right
before we signed onto our call that I
00:16:17.061 --> 00:16:20.451
was having another conversation with
another organization that's really
00:16:20.451 --> 00:16:24.801
focused on the whole landscape of
wellness and healing and trying to
00:16:24.837 --> 00:16:26.667
implement that work into schools.
00:16:27.057 --> 00:16:29.637
And I asked them, I said, what are some
of the pain points that you see our
00:16:29.637 --> 00:16:30.987
communities dealing with right now?
00:16:30.987 --> 00:16:34.837
And what they mentioned as you, as
well, Kathryn, is that the whole
00:16:34.837 --> 00:16:38.797
system of education is struggling
because, and it's something that
00:16:38.857 --> 00:16:43.627
I visualize easily, unfortunately,
rightly so, because I'm from Parkland.
00:16:44.107 --> 00:16:47.317
But the way that it was articulated
to me was in the way that I hadn't
00:16:47.317 --> 00:16:48.577
thought about for quite some time.
00:16:49.357 --> 00:16:54.337
The education system has morphed
from something that was so noble
00:16:55.267 --> 00:16:56.767
just a couple decades ago to now.
00:16:58.492 --> 00:17:05.362
A living, breathing institution that's
working 24/7 to keep children alive.
00:17:05.392 --> 00:17:06.262
That's what was told to me.
00:17:06.262 --> 00:17:13.132
That same verbiage, to keep children
alive, both physically and emotionally.
00:17:13.642 --> 00:17:13.792
Kathryn: Yeah.
00:17:14.692 --> 00:17:17.332
joey: And that is extremely
daunting work to think about.
00:17:17.332 --> 00:17:20.272
Even again, as somebody from Parkland
who lost their friend to suicide
00:17:20.272 --> 00:17:24.592
just thereafter, and making that my
life's work through my scholarship to
00:17:24.592 --> 00:17:28.618
hear that articulated was difficult
to hear from somebody else as well.
00:17:29.128 --> 00:17:34.258
And even as an educator, I personally feel
uncomfortable calling myself a "community
00:17:34.258 --> 00:17:38.371
healer." And I've even walked into my
classes and I've even said, listen, my
00:17:38.371 --> 00:17:43.831
writing class on trauma is not meant
to heal anybody because if I make that
00:17:43.831 --> 00:17:47.041
promise to you and I fail to do that.
00:17:47.821 --> 00:17:50.521
I've broken the guarantee and I've
left a lot of disappointment in
00:17:50.521 --> 00:17:51.841
the students who are in the class.
00:17:52.261 --> 00:17:56.221
So I really personally try and steer
away from that and thinking that I'm
00:17:56.221 --> 00:17:59.791
capable in any way of healing a student.
00:17:59.821 --> 00:18:06.293
But what I do say is that this class
practices trauma-informed writing.
00:18:06.383 --> 00:18:10.733
We practice skillful composition in
the way that can help you think about
00:18:11.153 --> 00:18:15.173
your personal circumstances, and
that is a guarantee that I can make,
00:18:15.173 --> 00:18:19.223
that my class will allow students
to think and feel at the same time.
00:18:19.643 --> 00:18:23.603
So for educators who are listening,
especially for those who might not
00:18:23.603 --> 00:18:26.753
be artists, but are still maybe in
the humanity space as we've been
00:18:26.753 --> 00:18:29.753
talking about as well, what are some
different ways to bring this full
00:18:29.753 --> 00:18:36.233
circle, that intentional listening
can exist in classrooms without having
00:18:36.233 --> 00:18:41.183
to add another initiative or a burden
to the system that we already see as
00:18:41.183 --> 00:18:42.768
struggling to stand in its own two feet?
00:18:44.498 --> 00:18:48.418
Kathryn: Hmm, gosh, I so resonate
with what you said about like,
00:18:48.448 --> 00:18:52.338
'cause I too, I, I don't identify
myself at all as a healer, you know?
00:18:53.321 --> 00:18:59.650
And I cringe when I hear people say, oh,
yeah, we help save a person today from,
00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.780
you know, X, y, Z. It's like, oh gosh.
00:19:01.780 --> 00:19:04.210
It just like turns my stomach
00:19:04.270 --> 00:19:06.460
joey: because we're not saviors,
we're caring people who are
00:19:06.460 --> 00:19:07.900
trying to do this work on our own.
00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:08.890
That's all we are.
00:19:09.220 --> 00:19:09.670
Kathryn: Yeah.
00:19:09.970 --> 00:19:13.060
It precisely like Joey, you
know, we're just like, we're
00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:14.740
just, we're recognizing people.
00:19:14.790 --> 00:19:17.860
Like you could be my brother, my
sister, my mother, my aunt, aunt,
00:19:17.860 --> 00:19:21.965
uncle, we're just seeing one another,
and connecting with one another.
00:19:22.110 --> 00:19:25.580
So yeah, that's a really strong
thing that I feel so strong.
00:19:25.955 --> 00:19:30.970
Like that really hit hits my heart is,
let us be uplifters and supporters.
00:19:30.970 --> 00:19:32.140
Let us be listeners.
00:19:32.140 --> 00:19:34.839
Let us be lovers to connect,
00:19:34.854 --> 00:19:38.349
To build places of purpose,
of belonging, of meaning.
00:19:38.433 --> 00:19:39.873
Tools for listening.
00:19:39.873 --> 00:19:43.253
I mean sometimes it's, it is just
a matter of, like we were saying
00:19:43.253 --> 00:19:47.388
before, it's so much an inside job,
of just like really readying ourselves
00:19:47.388 --> 00:19:52.458
to be in the flow of the zen, the
water of it all, just to really not
00:19:52.627 --> 00:19:59.257
bring any sort of resistance, but just
curiosity a beginner's mind to whatever
00:19:59.257 --> 00:20:02.087
the encounter is, to ask questions.
00:20:02.087 --> 00:20:07.907
I think we often are so locked into this
place of thinking about what we're gonna
00:20:07.907 --> 00:20:13.997
say to respond to what's being said to us,
so rather just to really be comfortable
00:20:14.267 --> 00:20:22.087
with the pauses and creating that pause
too, because it's easy to be affected by
00:20:22.267 --> 00:20:24.847
the energies of those that were around.
00:20:25.277 --> 00:20:32.780
So if there's an anxiety, a demand,
an intensity, an insistence from those
00:20:32.780 --> 00:20:36.610
around us perhaps our inclination
would be the urgency of it.
00:20:36.610 --> 00:20:37.360
We gotta do something.
00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:40.900
So , can we prepare ourselves when
we walk into the classroom or when
00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:42.700
we walk into the sanctuary studio?
00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:44.970
Just our day, for example,
getting on the bus.
00:20:45.020 --> 00:20:52.090
Can we just really take a pause and be
with looking at people, just taking the
00:20:52.090 --> 00:20:58.630
defense off, and just taking the breath
and taking the intensities down a notch
00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:00.430
and just being present with folks.
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:01.570
Mm-hmm.
00:21:01.630 --> 00:21:02.050
joey: Definitely.
00:21:02.050 --> 00:21:04.330
And you mentioned questioning as well.
00:21:04.330 --> 00:21:07.300
What are some different questions
that classroom teachers can ask
00:21:07.660 --> 00:21:10.210
for the purposes of intentional
listening in the classroom?
00:21:11.050 --> 00:21:11.680
What did this look like?
00:21:11.747 --> 00:21:11.957
Kathryn: Yeah.
00:21:11.957 --> 00:21:15.922
Well, I think those basic questions
of how are you doing really
00:21:15.922 --> 00:21:16.012
joey: mm-hmm
00:21:16.252 --> 00:21:21.312
Kathryn: could go a real long way, and not
being fixed with what the answer might be.
00:21:21.372 --> 00:21:21.822
You know?
00:21:22.212 --> 00:21:22.302
Sure.
00:21:22.302 --> 00:21:27.242
I mean, to really be okay with
lightheartedness or with someone's
00:21:27.342 --> 00:21:32.392
over exaggerated humor or how can
we hold space for people's emotions?
00:21:32.392 --> 00:21:36.982
I mean, I feel like we're in this
time of needing to fix people.
00:21:37.292 --> 00:21:38.342
Well, we're not broken.
00:21:38.392 --> 00:21:39.892
None of us are broken.
00:21:39.892 --> 00:21:45.454
We're just really wanting to be that
of care for one another because like
00:21:45.454 --> 00:21:49.814
often behind anger is often fear,
so it is just a matter of presence.
00:21:49.814 --> 00:21:53.264
So what kind of questions might an
educator ask if how you're doing
00:21:53.264 --> 00:21:56.589
doesn't resonate, just like, tell
me two things that you did today
00:21:56.589 --> 00:21:58.309
that you felt really good about.
00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:01.464
Or tell me something that
you're looking forward to.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:07.839
Or opening up those kind of questions that
don't have folks feel like they're under
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:11.214
pressure to be right or get it but just to
00:22:11.454 --> 00:22:15.644
recognize that you're a safe person to
be around that you're not judging them,
00:22:16.194 --> 00:22:17.784
that you're just wanting to connect.
00:22:17.994 --> 00:22:18.294
Yeah,
00:22:19.524 --> 00:22:20.094
joey: absolutely.
00:22:20.094 --> 00:22:23.364
So just fostering genuine connections
that help bring people together.
00:22:23.664 --> 00:22:23.754
Kathryn: Yeah.
00:22:23.754 --> 00:22:27.264
joey: Even in different levels of
authority between admin and teachers
00:22:27.264 --> 00:22:30.954
and teachers and students as well
to help make the institution breathe
00:22:30.954 --> 00:22:32.124
again on its own, if you will.
00:22:32.634 --> 00:22:33.594
Kathryn: Yeah, that's true.
00:22:33.594 --> 00:22:37.064
Like you were saying about all the
different roles that we see in life, the
00:22:37.064 --> 00:22:41.801
admin, the educator, the professional
artists, the studio artists, the crafter,
00:22:41.801 --> 00:22:45.688
the, I mean, there's just so many
levels and layers, and prerequisites
00:22:45.688 --> 00:22:53.032
that we have been taught or shown in
society that gives us so much internal
00:22:53.043 --> 00:22:57.513
criticism and judgment we're already hard
enough on ourselves in society, right?
00:22:57.573 --> 00:22:57.693
Mm-hmm.
00:22:57.993 --> 00:23:01.813
So you can imagine what our young
people are feeling as they're walking
00:23:01.813 --> 00:23:05.803
into the classroom, walking into
whatever the situation might be.
00:23:05.803 --> 00:23:08.773
Like, the insecurities, the pressures, the
00:23:08.773 --> 00:23:09.480
joey: mm-hmm
00:23:09.480 --> 00:23:12.970
Kathryn: comparisons and such
like that so we just best we can
00:23:12.970 --> 00:23:15.010
as educators and as human beings.
00:23:15.010 --> 00:23:20.726
We just wanna figure out ways
to, appreciate and to connect and
00:23:20.726 --> 00:23:24.206
to find something to pivot to.
00:23:24.636 --> 00:23:28.079
I always give myself a couple minutes
in the morning to bitch and moan,
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:29.579
because we gotta keep it real.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:31.799
We gotta keep it real, right?
00:23:32.009 --> 00:23:36.353
But we also wanna figure out ways
to pivot, to make little tweaks and
00:23:36.353 --> 00:23:42.143
adjustments, if we're in the throes of
like an intense situation, to just pause
00:23:42.143 --> 00:23:45.703
and then if we're outside, a lot of times,
you know, I'll, I'll, there's, there's,
00:23:45.883 --> 00:23:47.233
there's a bird somewhere chirping.
00:23:47.233 --> 00:23:48.823
Let me figure out where it is and listen.
00:23:49.933 --> 00:23:50.293
Right?
00:23:50.293 --> 00:23:50.503
Yes.
00:23:51.253 --> 00:23:54.973
Are there, are there, there's some
pattern on someone's piece of clothing
00:23:54.973 --> 00:23:58.153
around that's pretty cool and let
me, let me look for something.
00:23:58.153 --> 00:24:01.633
So it really, it's a
muscle we have to practice.
00:24:01.663 --> 00:24:01.903
Mm-hmm.
00:24:02.148 --> 00:24:08.148
As human beings anymore, we really have
to do very intentional listening, but also
00:24:08.148 --> 00:24:13.788
intentional practicing for the inner work,
but also to ready ourselves for our day.
00:24:13.938 --> 00:24:14.568
joey: Absolutely.
00:24:14.928 --> 00:24:18.978
And I appreciate you talking about that
regulation factor because I know that
00:24:19.218 --> 00:24:23.748
when our students are already dysregulated
from their own outside forces, now they
00:24:23.748 --> 00:24:28.698
come into a classroom from a dysregulated
teacher as well, and those two
00:24:28.818 --> 00:24:32.808
dysregulated humans are now like feeding
off of each other in ways that are not
00:24:32.808 --> 00:24:34.518
so positive to the learning environment.
00:24:34.518 --> 00:24:38.058
So there needs to be certainly
ways for people to find rounding
00:24:38.058 --> 00:24:41.208
and regulation regardless of what
their outside circumstances look
00:24:41.208 --> 00:24:45.828
like in order for one common space
to function as a whole denominator.
00:24:46.458 --> 00:24:47.088
Kathryn: It's so true.
00:24:47.088 --> 00:24:49.982
I know sometimes it could be,
like you're saying, just movement.
00:24:49.982 --> 00:24:54.952
I've had opportunities where it's just
literally like shrugging our shoulders
00:24:54.952 --> 00:24:57.172
or moving our bodies and just like,
00:24:57.922 --> 00:25:01.132
not necessarily finding
word or sound for things.
00:25:01.132 --> 00:25:04.132
Sometimes it's sound, but it's
not like sensical sound, or
00:25:04.132 --> 00:25:06.232
sensical, graceful movements.
00:25:06.232 --> 00:25:09.352
But it's just like expressive ways.
00:25:10.102 --> 00:25:11.032
I've got this tattoo.
00:25:11.032 --> 00:25:12.532
You, you can't really see it.
00:25:12.562 --> 00:25:16.642
The listeners can't see it, but, you
know, I, I sort of took a page outta
00:25:16.642 --> 00:25:19.912
my colleague Lisa's book, and she
had this tattoo, so I got one too.
00:25:20.242 --> 00:25:22.582
Um, meet people where they are, you know?
00:25:22.582 --> 00:25:22.972
joey: Yes.
00:25:22.972 --> 00:25:24.442
Kathryn: We wanna meet
people where they are.
00:25:24.442 --> 00:25:28.711
But like How can we support people to
then, bring them to the next space, or
00:25:28.711 --> 00:25:30.931
to walk with them to the next space.
00:25:31.891 --> 00:25:35.281
Space being, you know, as
metaphorical as we want.
00:25:35.341 --> 00:25:35.941
You follow me?
00:25:36.511 --> 00:25:36.841
Yes.
00:25:36.841 --> 00:25:37.171
joey: Yes.
00:25:38.656 --> 00:25:38.956
Yeah.
00:25:38.956 --> 00:25:42.436
Like I know that whenever we're about
to have, like on Monday, we had a very
00:25:42.706 --> 00:25:45.706
heavy discussion a couple days ago
on our opening day as a class, just,
00:25:45.706 --> 00:25:49.636
on, trauma theory and what it means
to look at books and be a witness to
00:25:50.146 --> 00:25:51.916
the very difficult stories of others.
00:25:51.916 --> 00:25:54.766
Like we are reading some memoirs
from Columbine this semester.
00:25:54.766 --> 00:25:57.046
So we talk about what it's
like to be a witness to that.
00:25:57.616 --> 00:25:57.706
Yeah.
00:25:57.706 --> 00:25:59.866
And some of the reactions we
should look at within ourselves
00:25:59.866 --> 00:26:01.246
and our brains and our bodies.
00:26:01.456 --> 00:26:02.656
This is literature 1 0 1.
00:26:02.836 --> 00:26:03.646
It gets pretty deep.
00:26:04.216 --> 00:26:04.276
Wow.
00:26:04.276 --> 00:26:04.486
Yeah.
00:26:04.486 --> 00:26:08.446
Before I get into those conversations
with the students, I warn them and I say,
00:26:09.076 --> 00:26:13.216
Hey, we're gonna be talking about X, Y,
and Z in a little bit before we let the
00:26:13.216 --> 00:26:15.346
information become overloading to us.
00:26:15.346 --> 00:26:20.206
Let's go ahead and take 90 seconds and
walk through a five finger meditation
00:26:20.206 --> 00:26:24.316
process where I'll guide them through that
where they inhale, trace their fingers
00:26:24.316 --> 00:26:26.056
and exhale through their full hands.
00:26:26.203 --> 00:26:32.473
And it allows 'em to have that momentarily
sense to reregulate before we all become
00:26:33.053 --> 00:26:36.353
facilitators on the common baseline
through that day's contenting curriculum.
00:26:37.373 --> 00:26:38.663
Kathryn: Yeah, that's a beautiful example.
00:26:38.693 --> 00:26:43.573
It reminded me of a practice that I
sometimes do with folks where they're a
00:26:43.573 --> 00:26:46.843
little hesitant to sit down and engage.
00:26:47.163 --> 00:26:49.743
So it could just be a matter
of sitting next to them at the
00:26:49.743 --> 00:26:53.658
table and just like, they doodle
a line and I'll doodle a align.
00:26:53.688 --> 00:26:53.978
Yeah.
00:26:54.103 --> 00:26:55.273
I'll doodle a line.
00:26:55.273 --> 00:26:56.863
You pick a color, I pick a color.
00:26:56.863 --> 00:27:01.043
And just like figuring out ways to
like, or this other person I'm thinking
00:27:01.043 --> 00:27:03.933
about no art about it at all, you know?
00:27:03.933 --> 00:27:09.178
No creativity about it at all was
literally playing tic-tac toe, but
00:27:09.408 --> 00:27:13.923
they sat down at the table, because
they felt it was a safe place to be.
00:27:14.013 --> 00:27:14.103
Mm-hmm.
00:27:14.343 --> 00:27:16.743
Somebody was listening and somebody cared.
00:27:16.743 --> 00:27:21.003
And I think that's what we want
as educators, as people to just
00:27:21.003 --> 00:27:23.870
really create spaces for welcome.
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:24.470
Yeah.
00:27:24.475 --> 00:27:24.605
Yeah.
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:26.660
joey: Absolutely.
00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:29.570
Spaces for welcome is a great
way to think about a theme for
00:27:29.570 --> 00:27:30.770
today's conversation as well.
00:27:30.770 --> 00:27:34.670
So as we start to conclude, it's been so
wonderful speaking together, and I wanted
00:27:34.670 --> 00:27:37.850
to ask, do you have any final thoughts for
our listeners for them to take away with?
00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:39.350
Kathryn: Yeah, thank you.
00:27:39.380 --> 00:27:42.867
Um, ooh, I guess, let it be
okay for yourselves to hit
00:27:42.867 --> 00:27:44.457
the pause button sometimes.
00:27:44.507 --> 00:27:48.457
And that pause button looks like so
many different things to all of us.
00:27:49.037 --> 00:27:51.617
Don't get too caught
into ruts and routines.
00:27:51.617 --> 00:27:56.227
Be okay with stepping back, stepping
within yourselves and just pausing
00:27:56.227 --> 00:28:01.027
and listening it and to sort of
bring it looped around to something
00:28:01.027 --> 00:28:04.147
that we were talking about earlier
with that idea of like, momentum.
00:28:04.477 --> 00:28:08.577
So the moment by moment listening to
your gut, your intuition, your tummy,
00:28:08.577 --> 00:28:13.017
you know, momentum, like build up the
momentum for if it's your own self
00:28:13.017 --> 00:28:17.747
care, build up that momentum to remember
yourself, realign yourself again with
00:28:17.747 --> 00:28:23.107
yourself to be that more awesome version
of yourself for, for others, right.
00:28:23.857 --> 00:28:25.537
Not only for yourself, but for others.
00:28:25.537 --> 00:28:25.927
Yeah.
00:28:26.347 --> 00:28:26.857
joey: Thank you so much
00:28:26.857 --> 00:28:27.007
Kathryn: for that.
00:28:27.007 --> 00:28:27.187
Thank you.
00:28:27.187 --> 00:28:28.987
This, this has been so uplifting for me.
00:28:28.987 --> 00:28:29.407
Thank you.
00:28:29.407 --> 00:28:30.397
joey: I'm so delighted.
00:28:30.397 --> 00:28:31.457
Thank you so much, Kathryn.
00:28:31.477 --> 00:28:33.277
And one final question, just one more.
00:28:33.727 --> 00:28:36.847
Your website is going to be in our
show notes and when our listeners
00:28:36.847 --> 00:28:40.217
go to learn more about you, is there
anything that you want them to see or
00:28:40.217 --> 00:28:43.997
know in advance or anything that they
can expect or go more into on their own?
00:28:44.270 --> 00:28:45.215
Kathryn: Oh, geez.
00:28:45.260 --> 00:28:45.740
Yeah.
00:28:45.970 --> 00:28:48.160
I'm in that betwix between space.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:48.520
Right.
00:28:48.940 --> 00:28:51.070
But I am always a weaver.
00:28:51.070 --> 00:28:52.660
I'm always a uplifter.
00:28:53.830 --> 00:28:56.480
Just finishing up a series
of, you are welcome here.
00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:01.310
I saved a chair for you, weavings, so
you can look out for those weavings.
00:29:01.700 --> 00:29:03.650
Um, do a Google search for that.
00:29:03.650 --> 00:29:04.520
You are welcome here.
00:29:04.520 --> 00:29:05.900
I saved a chair for you.
00:29:06.755 --> 00:29:09.455
And it's that idea of just
holding space for people.
00:29:09.455 --> 00:29:14.195
A lot of like our conversation,
Joey, of just like holding space.
00:29:14.315 --> 00:29:17.855
So yeah, I'm on social media,
Facebook, Instagram and all that,
00:29:17.905 --> 00:29:21.645
I'm always looking forward to
connecting with folks, so Thank you.
00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:22.710
joey: Wonderful.
00:29:22.710 --> 00:29:23.490
Thank you Kathryn.
00:29:23.490 --> 00:29:27.660
So that was Kathryn Pannepacker,
and what stays with me from this
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:31.110
conversation is that how listening
is a way to shape relationships
00:29:31.110 --> 00:29:32.580
and build possibility as well.
00:29:32.970 --> 00:29:37.770
And Kathryn's work has invited us to see
listening as creative and ethical, which
00:29:37.770 --> 00:29:42.510
is a way that can help communities feel
more whole, more connected and more human
00:29:42.510 --> 00:29:44.840
as well, amid complexity and limitation.
00:29:44.890 --> 00:29:49.420
So if this conversation has resonated with
you, I encourage you to explore "Art as
00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:54.250
Restorative Practice" from Lisa Kay and
Bev Johns, as well as Kathryn's Listening
00:29:54.250 --> 00:29:58.330
Loom to reflect on how listening shows up
in your own classrooms, your own studios,
00:29:58.335 --> 00:30:01.990
or even your own spaces of leadership, not
as something to master, but as something
00:30:01.990 --> 00:30:04.030
to practice with sincerity and care.
00:30:04.030 --> 00:30:06.820
So Kathryn, thank you for
your generosity today.
00:30:06.820 --> 00:30:08.350
Thank you for sharing your work with us.
00:30:08.350 --> 00:30:11.380
Thank you for your thinking
and your presence as well,
00:30:11.890 --> 00:30:12.220
Kathryn: Joey.
00:30:12.220 --> 00:30:12.760
Thank you.
00:30:12.850 --> 00:30:13.720
Thank you so much.
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:18.420
Thank you for joining us on the Classroom
Narratives Healing and Education podcast.
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:21.690
If today's episode inspired you
or made you think differently,
00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:23.010
I'd love to hear from you.
00:30:23.370 --> 00:30:27.480
Drop a comment or review wherever you
listen to podcasts and stay connected
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:32.040
with us on the at Classroom Narratives
podcast over Instagram and Facebook.
00:30:32.130 --> 00:30:36.870
Remember, together we can transform
our scars into stars and education,
00:30:37.230 --> 00:30:39.180
one conversation at a time.