When Innovation Stops Changing Things

Public sector innovation was supposed to help government change.

But what happens when innovation becomes part of the system it was meant to challenge?

In this conversation, I sit down with Nicholas Gruen, a longtime voice in public sector innovation, to talk about why the field may have lost some of its edge. We get into perpetual pilots, reform work that never quite lands, and the strange way innovation can become another layer of process rather than a force for real change.

We also talk about one of Nicholas’s bigger ideas: the gap between the systems world and the life-world. Systems help us see patterns, scale, and structure. But when they drift too far from real human experience, things start to go sideways.

This one is a thoughtful, slightly uncomfortable conversation about change, institutions, and what it takes to keep reform connected to real life.