367 - The Evolution Continues with New CVA Endura

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Speaker 1: And you were listening to season six of the award winning Christian Outdoors Podcast with your host, Pete Rodgers. This show is being brought to you by Trus USA, the leading manufacturer for reliable, affordable firearms for personal protection, hunting, and sports shooting. Now having been a fan and user of Tarres handguns for decades, whether it's my everyday carry G four or one of the nineteen eleven models, or even one of their incredible hunting revolvers, Tarus is the best handgun on the market today and you can find out more on how reliable Tarris is at TURRISUSA dot com. All right, everyone, welcome back to Christian Outdoors Podcast. I'm Pete Rodgers, your host. Now have with me John Goodwin is joining me as co host again today, and once again we have with us the infamous legend, in his own mind, greatest muzzle loading hunter ever, Tony Smotherman from CVA. So Tony, John, thank you for joining me here today.
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Speaker 2: That may have been a strong interest, but I pre.
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Speaker 1: Just a little bit strong, A little bit strong, all right. Before we get into the show, though, listeners, I want to encourage you. You know, we've been running ads in our shows for quite some time, and we do that for the companies that support our podcast and our mission and our ministry here at Christian Outdoors. It's very important to us that you support the companies that support us. If it was not for them believing in Christian Outdoors and what we're doing in our mission, it would be near next to impossible for us to continue to produce this show. So the companies that are supporting us, please support them. And we're coming into hunting season now and we're supported by farms companies. CBA was the first company to ever believe in us and to support us, and we're eternally grateful to them, and so I'm always thrilled to have Tony on the show. He's a dear friend and just a great human being. So Tony, thank you for joining us here on Christian Outdoors. Let's get started with this before we get into the main topic. Let's get started with this as to you know, you've been going through on the personal side, some changes the last couple of years with mooving and getting a whole new system set up, new business ventures, new things of that nature. Why don't you get us caught up on some of that and tell us how that has infected your faith journey as well.
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Speaker 2: So before we do a deep dive into that, because that can be a rabbit hole, and I am notorious for running down rabbit holes, I just want to say Number one, it's an honor. Like you just mentioned, CVA was the first to come on as a sponsor for Christian Outdoors podcast and it's an honor for me personally and also our brand to UH have been a part since the beginning of Christian Outdoors podcasts. And for all the listeners out there, you guys are listening to one of the best podcasts in this country. I get the great opportunity for what I do here at the CVA brand to be guests on podcasts across they but this one here is a great listen and also will make you a better person at the end of the day, which as we know, this land needs a lot, a lot of help in different ways. In this podcast will lead you to being a better individual because you are listening to amazing hosts and co host Now, so I appreciate the opportunity to be on here. But yes, so yes, so yes. You know, as we go through life and we get older, there's always trial and tribulations. There's ups and downs and heaves and hose, and we can come up with a pile of different ways to say that. And you know, I've been on this earth fifty one years and been extremely blessed to do what I have done over the years, and I've been pretty solid up until last year. I just had this I don't know, I just had this feeling that there was a change coming. And I don't see the future real well, but for some reason this last year, there was something that was pushing me to go a different direction in life. And not different directions as far as business plans or things like that, but I grew up and lived my whole life on the same farm that I was born on just outside of Nashville, Tennessee, and that just outside of Nashville, being thirty miles southeast of Nashville, in a small community called Murphysboro. And when I was a kid, it was small town life, you know. But because Tennessee is a great state, the taxes are great, the human beings there that are amazing. It has made everybody else realize that Tennessee is a great place, and especially escalated during the COVID pandemic or the Rhona or whatever that business was. It made people understand that living in big cities and working in cubicles every day was probably not the coolest thing in life. And a lot of folks started coming to Tennessee, which made the folks in Tennessee not so happy. But nonetheless, again, everything happened for a reason. So uh, the stuff that was going on and the massive development that was going on in our area and our community that I grew up in, well basically change the dynamics of that community that I knew as a young man. And you know, the the going down the road and waving it a person that passes you, whether you know them or don't know them, has always been a thing for me. And I remember specifically as a young man driving down or riding very young, riding down the road with my dad and he would wave at somebody and my first response will be, well, who is that, dad? I don't know? Okay, cool, So next next car passes and I'll be like, who's that dad? He goes, yeah, I don't know. I was like, well, if you don't know these folks while you keep waving at them, he goes, that's just what you do. That's just what you're supposed to do. Just wave at them.
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Speaker 1: I get that, a two finger wave.
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Speaker 2: Just to acknowledge the acknowledgment that they're a human being and they're coming past you. Kind of thing, just a gesture good faith. And I knew, I knew, we'll say, a year and a half ago that when I would drive down the road that I was born on and I would literally see somebody come in my direction and I would in my mind go, I ain't gonna wave with them because I know they ain't waving back. I knew I was in trouble at that point, and that literally was the clicker that made me decide that being in that location where I grew up, at that community that I grew up in was not what I remembered it being, and it would start to harden me a little bit because of the influx of people coming in, which that's just part of it. And now I had become one of those people that have moved and come into a new area. So because of that, I felt just to really pull on my heart that I was hardening and I need to find someplace else to be. Life is too short to live dark inside like I was starting to get. So I now live in south central right up north of the Missouri border. Number one. The deer hunting is pretty good here. I'm sure you've probably heard about this day, but I love the West, you know, so I feel like that I should have probably been born a long time ago and lifts in Wyoming or Montana somewhere. Fortunate enough, my wonderful wife that I've been married to for quite a long time is from the great state of Wyoming, so we get to frequent there quite often to go see the outlaws, I mean in laws, And so coming here to Iowa got us to some really amazing deer hunting. You got us fifty percent closer to Wyoming in Montana, so I can be there in a day's drive now versus two days drive. And I have a little bit of roots here in this region that I live in now. As you mentioned, musloading is kind of my life and has been since I was twenty years old. I worked for another Muslim manufacturer back in the day called Night Muscleloaders, which is based out of South Central Iowa, about fifteen miles from where I'm sitting in my bunk house here right now. So this area that I live in. I was in and out of this area for about fifteen years while I worked for the night Musloading operation, So it wasn't like I was just up and moving my home front and moving to a foreign country. I kind of already knew this place a little bit. It's been many years ago. I've worked at CBA since two thousand and nine, so I've been here for a minute also. But the great thing is is when I come up here to test well, just to test my own self, to see if I could possibly thinking about living somewhere else. When I pulled back into town, I live in Cordon, Iowa. When I pulled back into town, oddly enough, it was just like it was in two thousand and nine, the last time I saw Cord in Iowa. So that was a good thing. We're here in Wayne County. We have no red lights in the entire county. Oh wow, that's something. Yeah, no red lights in the entire county. Everything was the same now as it was then. The greatest thing about this area is I feel like I am back forty years ago from the community that I grew up in. Everybody waves when they see you at the cases. Of course, you know, I you know cases, If they see you at Cases, they say good morning, how you doing, Good to see you, and they really legitimately mean it, which is so impressive. And I needed that because I was, like I said, it's getting a little little tainted by all the incoming people there in my local area, and I needed a refresh in this place here. It has absolutely been that refresh. So it was very hard for me to basically pick up everything I owned in my roots, and the farm that I lived on was generational, my sons for fourth generation living on that piece of property. So it was very tough and emotional, but I firmly believe that the man upstairs had a plan for me, and even though it's very difficult and hard for me to push through that that that being, the feeling of leaving my home turf was very tough for a while, and I may have shed a tear or two along the way trying to make that decision. But again, there was just this pulling inside of me, not per se to be specifically here in corn Iowa, but find a new location, and it ended up just kept pulling me back to south central Iowa and the place that I kind of knew back when I was a younger man. So a lot of great memories here and now we're making a whole bunch of new ones. We picked up several farms here where we have an amazing place here that I mean if again, it kind of shows you how the manister has had a plan. I had this giant criteria of a place that I wanted, and if I didn't find that exact place, that was my reason to say I ain't gonna do it. And dealing with real estate agents across northern Missouri and other than Iowa, we went through a whole bunch of different places and then I'm like, no, if it ain't exactly this, I ain't doing it. So I kept trying to put up roadblocks so I wouldn't have to do it. And then one day a guy calls me, a friend of mine in northern Missouri. He's a real estate agent down there. He calls me at ten o'clock on a Friday night and says, I found your place. It just hit the market. It's exactly everything that you wish for. You better find a way to nine one wanted up here. Are you sure? He said, I'm telling you if you drew it out on a piece of paper. You drew this place out for you. I'm like, well, if that's the case, man upstairs knows my criteria. Because of him and I have talked a bunch here lately. Let's make a drive up and so on the way up. Of course, my bride was not fully dove into the relocation situation. She loved Tennessee. We have two boys that are still in Tennessee right now, so leaving the boys was making her feel pretty concrete to Tennessee. The whole way up to Iowa, from my door to from my Tennessee door to this Iowa door that I'm at now was about ten and a half eleven hours time you hit a few gas stops, some food. I'm not sure she ever looked forward. I think she looked out the window facing away from me the full till eleven hour drive. She wouldn't speak to me. She went talk to me, she didn't say work because she didn't want nothing to do with it. So I was like, my gosh, I'm definitely being put through some more trials and tribulations here. But I said, the manistairs knows what my criteria is. What I wanted for a home, a farm, a place want to bring my wife and relocate to. And he put it flat in front of us, and as soon as we saw it, we were like, absolutely, this is for sure the place. This was ordered specifically for us. And just so you're aware, my wife absolutely loves this place.
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Speaker 3: Now, that's good.
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Speaker 2: So the man, honest manister had his hand on me and her for quite a long time. So it's a wonderful blessing. And you know, sometimes you just got to kind of go with those feelings and know the man upstairs just got a plan for you. You just don't see it just yet. Sometimes.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so she was she sold when she saw it, like you.
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Speaker 2: Were, don't know, she was like this. So she did really like it a lot. But it did take a little time, and it was kind of the same scenario for her. I had been fighting to let's relocate in my mind and in my heart for probably eight months to a year prior to her, so when I was committed to move, she had not quite got there just yet. And then once we and even when we bought the place, even when we bought this place, we've had this place just a year. In about four months now, For the first six months, she was only up here about once a month, and that was only for two or three days. So I was mentally understood where she was at because I've been going through that for a year prior to just in my day to day life. So I would bring her up for three or four days and let her kind of marinate and go to town and go to the grocery store and get the cases twice a day, just to kind of again marinate in that scenario. And then after six months he's like, I'm good, let's roll. I understand the value of quiet living country life.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so does she talk to you on the way back down?
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Speaker 2: Uh? You know what, the ride home was a little better than the ride up.
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Speaker 1: Yes, that's good. Well, you know how the how the females are where they got to they got to find a hair space and a place to do their nails, and they got to find their doctor, and they got to do all that, because that's important if I don't have anywhere to get my head done, Dennis, all those things you got to find the And they're like, I don't know, I have to change all that worry about all that stuff. That is it gonna be so difficult, and from what you told me before, is all that just lined right up.
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Speaker 2: You know, it is funny because that was a real concern for me too. As a husband and provider and a protector of my wife, I was concerned for those things that she I'd say she felt was a necessity, but in fact was a necessity for her. You know, I had necessary things that I wanted in our home, in a bunk house and on the farm. I had those things, but I wouldn't worried about a hair cutter or dentist or fingernail person. But I knew on her radar that was a concern for her, So it was a concern for me too. And when you drive through this small community we live in, at whatever the speed limit is, we'll say through downtown thirty five miles an hour. So if you go through downtown at thirty five miles an hour, you go, I ain't nothing here. After we marinated for a minute, we realized that everything is here. We have an amazing healthcare system, we have an amazing non traditional medicine doctor. We have dentists. She's found a nail lady, she's found hair gal. And the great thing is of course, obviously being from a big city, it's like you got a thirty minute drive to town, You've got fourteen red lights, you got to wait in line, you got to get an appointment a month in advance. All that kind of stuff juste due to population here. There's none of that, and these people here amazing. So she can go get her nails done tomorrow morning at eight a m. And I have to make an appointment or nothing, because they're just ready. There's not a waiting line scenario. So yes, it has turned out to be the most done. I almost think we found a fountain of youth. Be honest with you, I feel like I'm going backwards now that I'm getting younger, because my stress level is pretty much slim and nine. And the man upstairs put us in the place that he wanted us, and it is for sure the right place.
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Speaker 1: That's great, you know. One of the as you're saying this, Tony, and one of the things that's I think the hardest for believers, for Christians who are trying their best to trust God for their future, is that patience that we have that we have to have because we want an answer right now. God. I'm struggling with this. I know I want, I know, I feel like I need to relocate. I feel like I need to move to this area. I feel like this, but I want to make sure I'm making the right decision and that waiting can be so hard and so challenging. Is this where it is? Is this what you want me? And you have as an example, you have this piece of real estate pops up and you go and look at us like, I just don't and then this other one pops up really like that one, but then another one, And if you jump on this one too early, then maybe you're not exactly where you need to be. And that being patient and trying to tune in to what God really wants for us can be a really difficult thing to do, you know.
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Speaker 2: And that is as true as it ever gets, Pete. I went through that terribly because I'm a I want to say I'm an instantaneous gratification kind of individual, but coming from a business background. Yes, I do working out the industry. I do work for CBA, but I also run other companies that I've owned, owned and have owned. So I like to dictate. I like to steer the ship and or at least feel like I am anyway, so I probably not steering it. I feel like I am, so it makes me sleep better night. And then and then getting to this situation in life where I felt as vulnerable as I have ever felt, and like I want to say, out of control. But my hand was not owned the steering wheel scenario. And but but because of great influences like you in my life and having folks like you in my corner made me understand very clearly that sometimes I may not have my hand fully tightened on the steering wheel and that's okay. Yeah, And I'm telling you, Pete, that was as tough as it's ever been to understand that I'm not steering my ship of controling my destiny, and I had to put it in the hands of the man upstairs. And that was tough for me. Not that I didn't think the man upstairs would know what's going on. I'm just not used to relinquishing that kind of control or I don't know, power out of my own to control of my own destiny kind of thing. I don't know.
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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you see that though Tony, with a lot of entrepreneurs, because we know that if if we don't do it or make sure it gets done. It's not going to get done. And as an entrepreneur, the whole business relies on your leadership and and you being an entrepreneur and me me being one, you know, in the past and somewhat now. You just it's hard to say, I gotta let this just sit for a while. I gotta let just just sit and wait and see because in the entrepreneur world, we got to make decisions right now, right right now. It's got to be decided right now, right now. And then when you're looking for something for your future, it's like, how do I wait? How do I wait? How do I be patient? You know, it's just hard. But I think you said it well though, that when we do that, God's plan for us is always bigger and better than our plan for us, and that patience pays off well.
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Speaker 3: And He's He's always on time too, right, And that's like part that I've struggled with over the years is my timing and what I want sometimes is well behind God's timing or well ahead, yeah, and trying to you know, and that's that's hard. But He's like, hey, slow down, dude, or speed up, either way, right.
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Speaker 1: If you follow this show for any time, you know how much we love the CVA line of firearms and mussloaders. The CVA has always been the leader in musload technology, and the new Endura is no different. The Endura is not just another musloader. The CVA Endura series is the next generation of musloader performance, purpose built for hunters who demand long range accuracy, modern design, and versatility in the field. Both the Endura l r H and the Endura Pro or cva's first musloaders rated for use with either the black Horn two O nine or specifically recommended modern smokeless rifle powders. Each Endura is built around the Bergara barrel that's precisely designed for these high performance loads and employees an advanced VERA flame ignition system at a magnetic bolt for ease of priming, and a corrosion resistant tungsten line breech plug. From the open planes to the rugged backcountry. The Endura series delivers precision, reliability, and confidence for the serious big game hunter. To learn more about the Endure line of musloaders, go to CVA dot com. I was going to say this is a good time to transition into one of the other reasons that you're here, Tony. I think the first part of this show is very important to the listeners who are going through changes in their life, and that change can be relocating, it can be a new job, it can be empty nastying, kids, going to college, whatever, some kind of big change going on, and how important it is to wait on God's timing. And I think you've covered that very well. But one of the things that reasons that Tony's here is is anybody that's been in the hunting world for any time, specifically in the muzzle loading hunting you know as we do that CBA has led the way in mussle loading technology for years and years. They have just gone I mean, everybody's plays catch up to CBA. CBA innovates, CVA creates, they invent, they design things that other companies are just still trying to catch up on what was done fifteen years ago by CBA, and they're doing it again right now with this new product that's coming out in September of twenty twenty five, and Tony's here to explain that to us. So Tony, why don't you take the lead right now and explain to us what CVA is doing right now.
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Speaker 2: Well, So, just like you said, CBA has been a manufacturer or a muzzleloader since nineteen seventy one, so we've been around for quite a long time. I feel like we had figured it out, you know. But in the musloading world, one thing that I've noticed that we've been very slow to change just musloading in general. You know, we've it's been fifty calib well, it was fifty four caliber back in the seventies, and then it migrated over a decade and a half to a fifty caliber in the forty five caliber come in and heaved and hoed for well for the last two decades, the last twenty years plus. So it's been a slow migration in technology. Of course we're talking. We've got a webcam. I have a cell phone that's sitting beside me here. That's basic a computer at the end of the day. So we have a ton of technology and everything that we touched sea fuel drive, everything. Technology has touched all that at a very rapid pace in my lifetime, but musclaters have been slow to change. And I'm not quite sure why that is that case, but it is. But several years ago we come out with a where our first bolt action musload called a paramount. It was the first introduction of bolt action and long range muscloading, a thing that the world had never seen before, and it helped with not that we broke the mold and did something different, but technology has started to increase in everything, and that is propellants, that is optics that we're running, that are rings and bases. So there were so many things that had basically started piling up that made us allowed us opportunity to move forward with some advancements, and that was the paramount, our long range muscleloader. But earlier we talked about what changed in the world that basically shifted and made me feel like I needed to do something different. Kind of was the same thing for us, you know, when that COVID happened, I decided I needed to do something else. And we were building the paaramount for four years. About three years. We were building a paaramount for three years. We've been working on it for five two years behind the scenes and then three years in front where everybody was using that gun. And it was forty five caliber, super amazing, super high ballistical fishing rejectile at point three to three able to run a powder called black Horn twol nine and black orntol nine has been around since twenty ten, but it really never got any accolades until like twenty sixteen twenty seventeen when we started building this paaramount and it basically single handedly changed the muzzloading world. But then COVID happened and black Corn tool nine went up three prices of what it used to be, which we all know everything we touched kind of did the same thing. So the black Horn went price wise, went out of the roof one from thirty five ninety nine to ninety dollars, and that's for a ten ounce jug. And then then when the demand got so high and the supply got so low, it went from ninety five dollars for an eight ounce jug to ninety five dollars I'm sorry, ninety five dollars from a ten ounce shug to nine to five dollars to an eight oun shug. So same price less powder, which unfortunately that cost the demise of the paramount because the paramount did not run without the efficiencies of black Orn twoll nine. That's super clean, great chamber pressures, no smoke, not hydroscopic, meaning you don't absorb water. But when that powder got hard to get and got very expensive, people started giving us a touch of grief on the paramount that it couldn't be ran with a different propellant. And it could be, but at that point a paaramount wasn't a paramount with black Orn Tuol nine. And I don't think and still today can't leave that black orntool nine almost disappeared for a while and got very hard to find. And I can't believe that we never thought about that. But you know, other propellants have been around for so long, the Triple seven or we'll back up at go X Triple seven pirate decks, we've never seen a decline in that. We've never seen basically change in price that over the decades it's been here. So we just never put thought that black Orn Tool nine would start to disappear off store shelves. I think a lot of that was to guys like me, because I'll say I hoarded black Orn toool nine. When it started becoming hard to get, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to have black Orn two nine to hunt with. That's my jam, so I better get instead of having two drugs on hand. I had fifteen drugs on hand, and I know you guys are pointing fingers in me, And if you're listening right now, are watching, you're going, oh, you you're that guy. You're cause the problem. Yes, I did cause part of that problem. But the man over here, mister, and everybody I know that, Yeah, everybody I know that ran Blackhorn did the same thing. So it basically disappeared, and so we decided as a brand that that was probably a good time to pull the Paramount off the market because we didn't want people running powders that they shouldn't be running, and running triple seven's and things like that that made the gun not what it was. So with that said, again, there's always a plan. So we look back now today as we're going into September of twenty twenty five, the Paramount has been El's been off the ships and pretty quiet for the last two years. But in doing that, we have not been sitting on our hands, and we've not been trying to figure excuse me, trying to figure out how to manufacture black Horn ourselves. We have spent time and dedication specifically to the musloading market that wants a bolt ax and musload. It's a long range muscloader that loves a forty five caliber muscleloader. So we have created a new CVA bolt action long range muscleloader called the Endura. It is studying Endura. Okay, it's called the Endura. It depends on where you're at, or it's Endura Endura.
00:30:26
Speaker 1: Nice and I would say, to look at it, it looks like a paramount. Basically it does.
00:30:33
Speaker 2: So we didn't want to make a bunch of big changes.
00:30:40
Speaker 1: It just looks if.
00:30:40
Speaker 2: We didn't want to make a bunch of big changes where it freaked everybody out scenario. So what we end up doing is is there's several advancements in the Endura other than just the name change. Some of those advancements you won't be able to see unless you're studying really hard. Because people love the paramount so much that we didn't want to make an old we're all X tier your design change where they're in essence freaks them out a little bit because it's a whole new thing. It looks different, feels different. We stayed with the same look concept that we had before because that design was proven that everybody loved it. But we took time to add advancements to it. Number one, the injection port on the side of the gun where you actually load your primer in. We enlarge that. That was one, I want to say complaint, but conversation that we had at trade shows and through our customer service department that sometimes if it's especially dead of winter, especially when you're through the Midwest or up north where it does get cold and you've got big, old fat gloves on your fingers are now sausages, we enlarge the ejection port a little bit to be able to easily, much easier get in and engage the very flame adapter or primer and also get it out. But even on top of that, on the same subject, we actually put in a magnetic bolt face. So when you think of bolt action, you think of putting a shell in per se if it's a centifi rolling the vote forward. Once the primer or the shell is spent, you roll the boat up, pull it back, and it brings the casing back out. Well, that's never been the case in the paramount, so in the endure we did put a magnetic boat face on the front of the boat so you can actually take your primer or a very flame adapter and slide it in and just sit it right on top of the boat face, roll it forward, engage it, ignite it, put it up, pull it back, and then it pulls your primer adapter or the very flame back out of your breach plug. It does not eject it to throw it out because number one, number one, the very flames are reusable, so we don't want to exect it out. It extracts it out for you. So pretty excited about that. Another really big advancement is in the breach plug design itself. So in the breach plug you have a hole that goes through the middle. For you guys that are new to muscloading, that's called the flash hoole. And because of the amount of black horn that we've always ran in the paramount Our original bolt action design, we would have flashole erosion at times. And with this new breech plug design, we lined that flashole with tungsten carbide. So if it's thirty two thousands inside diameter, when you pull that gun out of the box, it will be thirty two thousands for your life. There will be no weare factor inside the breech plug. With this tungsten carbite insert. So that was really how on our rate arcas we realized that even with a stain of steel breech plug, due to chamber pressures. And what you got to realize is is every muscle loader is basically a open breech design, meaning your flash hoole or you're I'm sorry, your breech plug has a flashold. It's like we mentioned, so when you ignite that primer and try to push your powder and projectile forward, most of that debris goes forward. But because of the open breach or the flashole in the breech blood, there will be sometimes some debris tried to come backwards. And what we realized is because of the amount of chamber pressure that our long range muzzloaded it built that it would erode out the flashole and caused a little bit excessive blowback at time. So we redesigned that breech blow that talked tunks and car Bye insert that eliminates that problem forever.
00:34:25
Speaker 1: Oh that's huge, that's huge. Yeah, huge.
00:34:30
Speaker 3: Well, the magnetic bult I lost a very flame adapter in the woods out of a tree stand. Fumbled around with my cold fingers a couple of years ago. It went down on the leaves, never to be seen again. So just these little innovations, I think are that's brilliant. That's brilliant stuff.
00:34:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great, Yeah and all that's all. That's impressive, Tony. So for me as a listener listening to this and you're talking about the pressures and the Blackhorn two or nine, what kind of loads on blackhorn two or nine are you are you talking about with this Endira?
00:35:17
Speaker 2: So for blackhorn?
00:35:18
Speaker 1: You know.
00:35:19
Speaker 2: So I'm of the mindset that if you're driving down the road listening to this podcast, going to your next destination, your vehicle says that it'll probably on this sphinometer maybe run one hundred and twenty miles an hour. In theory, that's all fine and good, but it probably handles better at about sixty five or seventy. And muscloaders have always been that way. Yes, we have a maximum load that we don't want to exceed. But just because you know the tim the two man Taylor syndrome where bigger is better and all that kind of stuff, it doesn't really work so well in muscleloaders. You absolutely can run it to the maximum. It will get you more musbleilossity, but a lot of times in the Muslim world it would actually push the projectile a little too fast and cause erratic behavior and your grouping may not be as good. Yes you'll have more musclelossity, Yes you'll have more kinetic energy, more knockdown power. But at the end of the day, the creaters were after they don't know how fast we hit them, they know where we hit them. So for me personally in the Muslim in the world, I don't ever shoot a maxum charge. I always start on the low side and then work my way up till I find the greatest And it may not be the lowest, but it most time will never be the highest. So for black Horn two nine, we've done a ton of testing of ninety eight grains by weight of black Orn two nine up to one hundred and twelve of black Orn too all nine and again this is by weight. Again advancements. If you're new to musloading or been in it forever, you've heard volumetric weighing, and that is say where you have a little brass measuring tube and you pull the powder in and that is volumetric waying. Today because of the advancements, that we've seen in mussloading. We're now weighing our powder, which has this very very specific weight down to the tenth of grain. In volumetric waying you cannot do that. It's gonna be a kind of refestment. Yeah, it's ninety eight ish, or it's one hundred and twelve ish. So now we're weighing our powder because black Orn two nine is in only loose form. So now we're weighing ninety eight exactly. And typically if I'm trying to figure out my load data of what my gun prefers, I will start out at the lowest ninety eight. I mean, you can do less than that, but ninety eighths are really good load. Most of the ones that I shoot, I shoot ninety eight in because it really likes it. But I have one that particularly likes ninety two for some reason. So you can play with loose powder. That's the greatest thing about loose powder is is you can play with And typically I do two grain increments. If I do ninety eight pretty good, I'll do one hundred and if it gets worse, then I go back to ninety six. But we've thoroughly tested with ninety eight by weight in one twelve by weight, and then typically the biggest question is that we get often is muscle velocity ninety eight With a two hundred and eighty five grain power belt el R bullet, I'm getting about twenty two ninety feet per second or muscleveloscity out of that. When I get up to my top end of one twelve, the recoil increases, but also the musli velocity increases, and one twelve gets me about twenty four hundred and thirty feet per second. And again that's that's muscloading advancements at its best, because we've back twenty years ago, eighteen hundred feet per second was pretty strong for a fifty caliber muscleloader, and now we're talking twenty two thirty at our top end and twenty two ninety ish give or take a few on our well my pet load of ninety eight grains by way eight. But here's the greatest thing about the Endura, and we're talking advancements. We get this question often and have for many years since the paramount was introduced. And if you really dug into the mussloading world, you know there's these muzsloaders they call a smokeless muzzloader. And we've been asked many times or are we going to ever enter that field of smokeless muzzloaders. Basically, when I say smokeless mussloaders, the powder or propellant is smokeless powder, the same in a Centi fire rifle cartridge. And again we had two years off to figure out where our next step was going to be. And just so you're clear, this CVA in Dura is very capable with black horn two O nine and also smokeless powder.
00:39:56
Speaker 1: Well that's a game changer. Yeah, yes, that is a total game change. Till now when we're at these trade shows and everybody comes up and asks us, and how many times do we get asked this question when we're at the Great American? Can you shoot smoke this powder in it? Can you shoot smoke this powder in it? Well I've been doing it for years when we don't recommend that, I've been doing you know, and and and and so now CBA is making a gun dan Dura that can shoot smokeless powder, which is centerfire rifle powder. Absolutely all right, So you know what's coming next, don't you, Tony? What because I reload the bullis right, Yeah, I reload bullets, and I know that every bullet has a different powder, every bullet with it, So BC one ten or I am a forty eight, sixteen or whatever. I can't think of any right now, but every bullet has a different powder and a very specific load, right, So I hope you're going to answer this in a ways, say we recommend this powder at this load so that we're not putting the wrong powder in there is there are pistol powders or rifle powders. There are fast burning powders, there are slow burning powders, just so much when it comes to smokeless powders. So tell us how that all came about and and what we're recommending to use and and why it is better.
00:41:26
Speaker 2: So, yes, you you kind of hit the nail on the head with a bunch of the worries that we had or thoughts that we had going into this. We wanted to make sure that we did an extreme amount of testing and different smokelessness. And you know, I come from the musloading world my whole life. Yes, I shoot centiphires too, but musloading is my passion. So sitting down at a reloading table, which I have a gun bench right on the backside of this camera that I'm staring into right now. My mind is always moving and running that I've never felt comfortable sitting and trying to understand the smokeless powders because there are so many. They all have different burn rates, chamber pressures, ignition timings, all that kind of stuff. So when we talk about smokeless, I want to make sure that you guys listening here watching the podcast, you need to be present when you're playing with smokeless. If you're not a comfortable reloader, you don't need to be worried about what's on Instagram. You need to worry about that. You need to be present when you're talking about smokeless. So we have tested very thoroughly and extensively for two years, and we have two powders that we is in our recommended loads. These are the ones that I recommend you stick to and also the weights, but they are very safe and very efficient. So the two that we have found that plays the best with us is I am Our I am R forty one ninety eight and that's fifty eight to sixty three grains and that's weighing it out, obviously, and then Vitavori, pretty fancy name, Vitavori in one twenty, and that's fifty to fifty five grains. And these here I have shot both of these many many times. I tend to lean towards the lighter I AMR forty one ninety eight at fifty eight grains and Vitavori in one twenty at fifty grains. Big question is musclevelocity. That's been a hot topic now because we've built these high performance muscle holders that people are pretty wound up about how fast they run, and I get it horsepower drag cars, how fast they go. So with the the fifty five grains or sorry, fifty grains of the Vitivrio's twenty three hundred and forty feet per second. At fifty five grains of Vitivre, it's twenty four forty four, to be specific. And then you got the IMR forty one ninety eight at fifty five grains, it's twenty four oh six. And then with the sixty three grains of the IMR forty one ninety eight, we're at twenty five thirty, which is rocking and rolling for two hundred and eighty five grand bullet.
00:44:21
Speaker 1: Wow, twenty five thirty.
00:44:25
Speaker 3: I mean it's a it's the center it's a centerfire rifle, right.
00:44:31
Speaker 2: That is Connecticut energy Like you can't imagine with a two hundred and eighty five high BC bullet rolling down the mountain side uh at twenty five thirty. But again, just like in Blackhorn, I feel like my best accuracy is in our entry level loads of fifty with the fifty with the N one twenty of it of ore in one twenty and then fifty five with IMR forty one ninety eight. One thing that this iss we started this endeavor two years ago. The biggest thing for me is is I never shot a smoke this mussload, and I've seen several of them come and go over the years of working in the mussloading industry. One thing that I was well, let me just back up one. The most important thing that everybody talks about is they don't want to clean. They don't have to clean. Yeah, I get it at musloading, it don't bother me. That kind of comes to the territory of having to clean the mussloader. But it is high on the radar of people not wanting to clean mussloaders, and I do get that, but what I guess enamored me more about it once we started playing with it is the let's say, trying to say this and not readneck terminology. The decreased recoil was impressive to me. I would think a bang is a bang, whether it's you know, these loads are very equivalent to each other. Even though the black horn have more weight of powder in it, the muscleloss is very equivalent. I mean, we're averaging about one hundred and twenty feet per second difference between blackhorn and smokeless, But the lack of recoil or lack of as much recoil in comparison to blackhorn tool now is very impressive to me. I figured, again not being a smokeless guy, that they're the instantaneous ignition of smokeless because so when I say that, both of them ignite quickly. But musloading propellants in theory are designed to burn in sixteen inches of baryland, so it's a boom. It's an elongated boom. It's ignition and then boom for sixteen inches. Smokeless is boom, that's it. They no boom there's no elongated boom, there's no drug out boom, So I figured that the recoil would be much sharper on my shoulder because it's more instantaneous. Where mussloader I hear it all time. I feel like it's more of an engaged push because the elongated burn or ignit boom or smokeless is right now, So I figured it would throw on me pretty good. But actually the recall is less, so I was very impressed with that.
00:47:08
Speaker 3: So so does that. So it probably sounds like a rifle. Then when you shoot it right, it doesn't sound like I'm.
00:47:14
Speaker 2: On you know, I can't physically hear a big difference in between the two because black Horn two and nine the mnition point is very it's high, but it's also an instantaneous ignition. So even the black Horn two nine probably a distance, you probably won't know what's a mussloder either anymore, because it used to be that the snap boom of muzsloaders. You go, yep, that guy just shot a mussloader on the next farm, right right that that went away with black RN two.
00:47:42
Speaker 3: That's true now, I would think too. There's times where I shoot it a deer and I'm convinced I have a good shot, and then the wind blows the right way and I can't see anything right, so that eliminates yep, that well.
00:48:02
Speaker 2: That eliminates that. Yes, yeah, it sure does. You know. That's that's always been a bit of a concern too for musloader hunters because especially when you back up to the older powders to go exes, the Pirate DEXes, the triple sevens, I mean, they smoked like you was on fire. Black horn was less smoke than any of the other propellants, so it wasn't as bad, but it still was a concern and the problem. And yes, you know, as as hunters and outdoorsman, ethics is high on our radar, or at least I hope it is so understanding why our shot impact is very important to me as an outdoorsman. And sometimes with the mussloater it's if the if the wind is wrong for you, you get a bunch of smoke that comes back in your face and you can't see you where this last year on this where'd to go? Where to hit at me? Knowing that you call your buddy, hey, I just shot the big one. Where'd you hit him at did you make a good hitt? No idea, it's gonna smoke everywhere? Yeah, not only that, so yes, yes, that that goes away.
00:49:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you don't know which way they ran, if they ran because of the smoke. That's the thing that upsets me is I always thought like, I make a pretty good shot, But now did he run this way or did he turn and go that way? And when you go to look, you don't even know where to start on the on the trail. But the smoke is one of the things I like about the muzzle loading is because it's because it does that.
00:49:29
Speaker 2: But there's can I do like it too?
00:49:32
Speaker 1: I do? I do? And so you got you got? Yeah? Yeah, So you got two different kinds of Enduras, or two different models, I guess would be the right thing to say. Correct, correct, So tell us about the differences in those and and which one I have to have?
00:49:54
Speaker 2: So yeah, so there is two different versions the we have the Endura l r H and we have the Endura PROUH. Just so you're aware, the Endura l RH and pro barreled action is the same. So there's not going to be accuracy increased in a between either one of them. The barreled actions are the same. They are nitrited barrel system means they're going to be in purpose to corrosion and that's because of weather or the powder. So it's nitrita. So the inside of the barrel is coated identically to the outside of the barrel, so you're not gonna have for RUSS exterior or interior. On top of that, both barreled actions are cerro coated with the tungsten sera coat. So the cera coat is amazing. But the biggest features in between the two, the l r H and the PRO is the l r H. We make everything on that gun, the barrel of the bolt, the bolt handle, the stock, the trigger, the trigger shoe, the sears inside the trigger, the butt pad, the spacers for link, the pool adjustability. We make everything on that gun in particular, and the pro bends it is a bit more upgraded version. One thing that we take in consideration that one folks are dealing with these long range high and muscles, they do like to put custom triggers in them. I am a bit of a trigger snob. I do like a really good, crisp, clean trigger. Our l r H comes with our custom trigger, it is fully adjustable. Average is going to be about two pounds four ounces with no creep or over travel. So even though I say this, even though we make it, it's not a custom aftermarket version, but it still isn't a very amazing trigger assembly. But in our PRO version we don't make everything on that gun. In particular, the stock itself is a gray bow stock. I believe it is an Eagle design, so it's a custom stock made here in the United States. And the trigger ssembly is basically a custom trigger simbly, it is a trigger tech that's adjustable down to I believe six ounces up to four pounds, and it's very easy to address, no gunsmithinghing like that. So it's a great upgraded trigger simply. So the pro is basically, if you want to customize your gun, it is the ones that's already have been customized for you. Both of those stocks have adjustable cheap pieces. That way you can run high end optics on it with thirty milimeter tubes or thirty four milimeter tubes with fifty six milimeters billions and all these big fancy optics that people are running today. You can in factor run those with the adjustable cheak piece and keep a good salt of cheak well on whichever model that you prefer. Both have adjustable length of pull in the back end, so basically they have spaces that are quarter in spaces that you could remove so you can make it fit you specifically, and so a lot of adjustability between the two. The biggest there's two big features that will give you the deciding factor of a factor of which one is best for you. Number one weight Obviously, muscolders are not like the Endure Pro comes in a like eight and a half pounds. The l R H, which is a blackstock with the tungsten spider webbing on it, it comes in it's about ten and a half pounds, So it's about two pounds difference between each gun, but also the price range. The price range, there's a separation. One is about sixteen hundred dozens about twenty one hundred give or take for the endure Pro. So there is a price difference and a weight difference. So it comes down basically performance wise, there's not a nickels difference in either one of them. It comes down to what the weight you prefer, and then what your billfold can handle. Basically.
00:53:34
Speaker 3: Now you said the the PROS triggers six ounces to four pounds. The l r H is fully adjustable as well. What's the range there.
00:53:44
Speaker 2: It is, so it's gonna it's gonna go from about two pounds two ounces up to three and a half pounds.
00:53:49
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so just to so it doesn't have.
00:53:51
Speaker 2: The full range of adjustability and it and it adjusts is about the same way. It has a exposed allenhead screw on the front side of the trigger shoe or the actual curve portion of the trigger that protrudes down as a there's an alm head there that you can very easily. So no bensmith can require them either adjustability.
00:54:12
Speaker 1: Right right, that's great and point of reference there. It doesn't take a lot of adjusting to get a big result. So if you're at home and you're thinking, I want to adjust this trigger, you're just gone from four pounds to one ounce and it's going to fire when you're not ready. So it just a micro micro micro adjustments on that.
00:54:35
Speaker 2: You know. A cool thing about that to Pete is the fact that when these guns, both of them come to you, unless you're just an absolute over the top trigger snob. They're gonna be perfect for you out of the box.
00:54:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every CBA I've ever had was that way. Just I put the trigger scale on it and they're always one eight to two point two right out at the box and it's just perfect. Yeah. Perfect. I do have a question about something you said, Tony. You mentioned that the inside of the barrel is not not tried coded. Also, did I hear that? Correct? M?
00:55:14
Speaker 2: Correct?
00:55:15
Speaker 1: All right?
00:55:15
Speaker 2: Code? Maybe a little bit of a loose word, okay.
00:55:20
Speaker 1: I was just wondering how that would affect the lands and grooves if it's coded instead of smooth and polished.
00:55:27
Speaker 2: Okay, So let me do just a touch of a deep dive intead to give you a little bit of history on nitrite process if you and the listeners are not familiar with that. So basically, the nitrite process started in the we'll call them black gun market. They are fifteen style market, and they're called black guns because they're black. But they're black not because they got painted. Uh, they're black because they went through a night tried process. And and Layman's terms, nitrite process is a big fancy word for a salt bath and basic anything that is like a stainless steel. So the barrels on these endureas are a bigar barrel stainless steel, biguar barrel that we run through a nitride process or salt bath, which basically change the molecular structure of that stainless steel. So inside stainless steel, not to get too deep dive into chemistry, but stainless steel has carbon inside of it. So any kind of nitrided barrel that we have on any of our guns, we have it also in other breakopen models as well. But that basically is a stain of steel barrel run through a salt bath or the nitrite process, and it basically pulls the carbon that is black from the interier of the stainless and brings it to all X tier surfaces. So you have two x tior surfaces on a barrel, the outside that you can see and the inside that you cannot. That's why nitri process is so so amaze for muzzleloaders because the inside is black as the outside, and it's not a coating that we spray on. It's actually part of the barrel itself, so it's not like we try to spray something down the middle of it. The greatest thing is it's imperious to weather snow or late season income up situations that we're in as outdoorsmen. Also, but if you are running a non SMOKEDUS version of propellant, you won't have any rush of corrosion inside because of that coating, so it does not affect the grooves and lands. Now, the grooves and lands are put into the barrel before they go through the nitri process. But again that darkness that you see aka the coating, not coding, but aka the coating is evenly distributed internally ann x year because it's naturally part of the barrel. Anyways, from the beginning.
00:57:49
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you for that.
00:57:50
Speaker 3: That's a great explanation.
00:57:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good explanation. This guy got so much knowledge, man, it's amazing. Oh one last one last question in in this all right, So if I am shooting a smokeless powder during a muzzle loading season, I would think I would need to check my state and see is it black powder only or is it muzzle loading? Because if I'm you're still pushing to projectile down the barrel, makes it muzzleloader.
00:58:25
Speaker 2: Still it's still muscle loading.
00:58:31
Speaker 1: Right, It's still muzzle loading. But in my state, South Carolina, it's because I look before we get on the show, it says black powder season, right, So that tells me I have to shoot black powder. It doesn't. It doesn't say muzzle loading or primitive weapon. It says black powder season. So I want to say to the listeners, make sure in your state that if you choose to get this and use smokeless pow, that you are legal. Right, you can still get the Endura and shoot black horn till nine in it right during black powder season, but make sure that you're legal. Is there a better way to say that, Tony, No.
00:59:16
Speaker 2: So you're spot on. You do need to check your state rules and regulations every year because they do change. And one thing that I'm seeing being so deep into the Muslim world is Muslim rules and regular regulations have been very out of date for a long time. They are now starting to adjust and come more forward thinking, but there still are several states across this great country that during a muzzle loading season or primitive weapons season, it still has to be a black powder propellant. That's why that when we built the Endure, we built it with the sheer thought process that in states that have allowed smopus to be in their world. This gun will shoot it very effectively, very accurately. But if your state is black powder pal only, this gun will shoot blackhorn two a nine very effectively and very accurately.
01:00:11
Speaker 1: Right, and you can still use it during firearm season. Right, So even if you're in a that's mean, if you're in a state that has a straight wall cartridge only during firearm season, this is still a muzzle loader. So this would still qualify correct.
01:00:34
Speaker 2: In most cases, if you're in a hypothetical firearm season, any lesser weapon is available to be used. But again I found some here lately just doing a deep dive that some states won't let you use a bode during gun seasons, which coming from the South, that's kind of odd to me that you couldn't use a lesser weapon. So again, pay attention to your rules and regulations, checked them often. And so here's the case in point why you need to check rules and regulations. This is off the topic of centa Fhire, but it is talking about rules and regulations and get changed. So we talked about my love for Wyoming. Every year I hunt Southeast Wyoming for mule deer, I've been hunting that season, which is a center fire season that I typically have used muzzloaders in for a long time. That season has been October first, opening day for over thirty years. It just got pushed through and they changed that season until October twentieth of opening day, and we just now got notified of it last week.
01:01:42
Speaker 1: So it went from October changed from October one to October twenty yep. Wow.
01:01:50
Speaker 2: And they literally just announced that this week, like two days ago. So I mean, our hotels are booked, our trips are planned. The guy that I go with is vacation is already planned for leaving on September twenty ninth, like we do and have done for the last thirty years. All that's changed now because they just passed it. It just passed through and come to fruition last week. So yes, always check your rules and regulations because they can change, and they they don't have to notivoalt you. It's your job, as a user of that outdoor time in whatever state it is, You're going to to be up to speed on those regulations.
01:02:31
Speaker 1: That's a big change. That's a big change. Wow. But Tony, this has been a this has really been a very informative show on a lot of levels. And this new CVA in Dura, like I said in the preface of this is CBA is always innovating, always ahead of the game. And now here you come out with this in Dura that is just incredible that it will shoe black powder or smokeless powder out of the same gun and get all most identical performance out of it. And that's just amazing in itself, and at this price point because other smokeless fiarm company, other companies that make smokeless muzzleloaders are three times that price. They are six grand and up, and that's the low end. And here you are coming in at fifteen hundred and twenty one hundred depending on the model. Again, CBA is just leading away.
01:03:39
Speaker 2: Well, we appreciate you very much. And yes, that was you know, when we took the time off or took the paramount time off the shelf to reinnovate things that we knew that we needed to do, keep it and get at a price point that just did not tear your pocketbook up. Has always been on the forefront of us. I feel like we've always been blue collar marior muscloader manufacturer but we didn't want to change that same process with the endurer. Yes. Is it more expensive than any of the Muslim we've ever built, Yes, but we're still a third less than our competitors with performance. Y.
01:04:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm blown away. I mean it's funny because every uh well, I started, I had a wolf way back in the day, right, so actually I have one at the house now. I gave it to my son. But every every CVA I have a muscle order I've required, I've wanted because at the time they were innovative, you know. The Yeah, I got an optimal Elite, you know, interchangeable barrels. I got the Accurate V two because it was one of the first guns I saw that was nitride treated, and I was like, that's amazing. I'm tired of rust, you know. And then I got a I got a paramount, and I'm just like, I don't know, I'm a little blown away because I'm like, how do you improve on the paramount? And you guys, it sounds like you did it.
01:05:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, you did it.
01:05:08
Speaker 3: I don't know what we did, my goodness, it's.
01:05:12
Speaker 1: Uh well, Next is a fully automatic musclel loader. That's next.
01:05:19
Speaker 2: That may take another day, two.
01:05:23
Speaker 1: May take, may take another decade. Tony, tony' smotherman with c V a great, great gentleman and just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to mussle orders, and he's led the way for decades in that in that space. And Tony, thank you again for joining us here Christian out Doors. Do you have any any closing comments? Tell people when this will be available and where it will be available.
01:05:50
Speaker 2: So yes, thank you, Pete, and I appreciate you so very much. I appreciate your DEALI diilgient effort uh and continue pushing forward uh with the word from the man up and making sure everybody understands how important he is in our lives. Also your hard work in diligient effort in keeping the outdoor voice of Live Through podcast. I know that from the outside looking in, Oh, it's easy to get a microphone, a computer, bam, you're good to go, you're a podcaster. But at the end of the day, it's a whole lot of work. And I appreciate both of you guys very very much. I know it's a lot of work. It takes a lot of preparation to do this, so I appreciate that more than you know. But for the endurer that will go live September second, twenty twenty five, so probably by the time you're listening to this podcast, it's already headed to dealers shells.
01:06:36
Speaker 1: Okay, so they could they'll be able to get it from any of the dealers once it becomes available in early September.
01:06:43
Speaker 2: Yeap, yes, Pete. So what I would imagine happens. I don't work on the sales side of things, so I don't see how the mechanics of the sales process works. But I got a pretty good understanding, and I feel like because the paramount has been wanted so long for the landast couple of years, that the dealers are standing in line waiting for the Endura. So I would imagine that everyone that we've built up today in our factory there well and just outside of Atlanta, Georgia, I feel like that they're going to go straight to dealers immediately, so they will be on store chefs a sap and it won't be a trickle. I know the number that we have already built up and completed, it's going to be a load that hits the store shelfs in September.
01:07:28
Speaker 1: Awesome. Awesome, Tony's mother man, thank you for joining us here on Christian Outdoors. Be looking for this in dura at your local dealer. When this show comes out, it will already be released, so just by a couple of weeks, but giving them a little bit of time before this comes out. So Tony, thank you for joining us.