EP 135 The Sharp End with Ashley Saupe

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I like facilitating experiences for people. I really like helping people learn who they are
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and helping them learn new tools, like learn how to cook in the backcountry, how to use a stove,
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how to go poop in the backcountry, like leave no trace. I like to teach people how to do things.
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And then I like to give, in terms of my podcast, I really like to give people a platform to share
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their story with no shame and no blame, no judgment, so they feel really safe and comfortable
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to be able to share their story to minimize future accidents. So that's, I feel like I like,
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I'm more comfortable being in the background than being in the foreground.
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That was Ashley Soppy. She's the host of the Sharp End podcast,
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a show built around firsthand accounts of accidents, near misses, survival,
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and the complicated psychology of risk in the outdoors.
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But before she started the podcast, she was studying the mistakes of others,
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reading Accidents in North American Climbing, an annual publication by the American Alpine Club
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that documents climbing incidents, what went wrong, and the lessons people take away from them.
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She became fascinated, not by triumphs or summit photos, but by the thin line between routine
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and disaster. The small decisions overlook details and human tendencies that can shift
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a situation toward danger. Eventually, she began to think someone should turn
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these stories into a podcast. That idea became the Sharp End.
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For more than 11 years, she's been listening to people recount moments when things fell apart.
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And in the process, her own relationship to climbing, risk, and the outdoors has changed.
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In her 20s and early 30s, she was more concerned with reaching the summit.
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But now, as she nears 40, she's learned to enjoy the journey.
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These days, success means facilitating wilderness experiences for other people
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and getting down safely. She's less interested in collecting accomplishments than she is with
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what the outdoors reveal about fear, ego, vulnerability, and identity.
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She spends time alone in the backcountry now, where the silence and isolation
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force her to confront these things directly. She says time slows down in the mountains.
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That survival depends on paying attention, listening to your body, the weather, your partner,
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the rock in front of you. That way of moving through the outdoors has also shaped the way
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she thinks about Alaska, how its scale and mythology often distorts people's judgment
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and can lead to a dangerous kind of confidence. Many refer to this as the Alaska factor.
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So here she is, Ashley Soppe.
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Welcome to Chatter Marks, a podcast of the Anchorage Museum,
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dedicated to exploring Alaska and the circumpolar north through the creative and critical thinking
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of ideas, past, present, and future. My name is Cody Liska, and I'll be your host.
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Before you started the Sharp End podcast, how did you personally think about risk in climbing?
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Huh. Before I started the Sharp End podcast, so, oh, that was over 11 years ago.
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And so how I thought about risk in climbing, you know, I was a big climber all through my 20s and
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early 30s and really learned climbing through an old partner of mine from Alta, Wyoming.
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And he took safety very seriously. And so I learned that that was a very important part of
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the climbing ethos very early on. And then, you know, I moved right into
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working for the Outward Bound School at the same time. And so, you know, then I learned all about
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safety behind an institutional lens. So safety has always been like really highest priority for sure.
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You said working for the Outward Bound School kind of taught you safety
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in an institutional setting. How was that different than learning it in a practical setting?
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Or a personal setting? It's just different in the way that, you know, you're triple checking
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everything because of liability, right? But you're often caring for 12 other kiddos or human beings
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than just yourself. So you have a lot more to look after. But I say that, I mean, kind of looking
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at it like, huh, well, I myself am just as important as 12 other bodies. So why should it be
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any different? And it really isn't any different. I mean, it shouldn't be any different. But that's
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when I grew up in this industry, there was certainly a difference. I mean, you know, I might
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not wear a helmet on a whatever, but I would definitely wear a helmet in front of students.
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That's not the case for me anymore though. Now I always wear a helmet. But back in the day,
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I might not use trekking poles to go, you know, up or down a mountaineering route or hiking route
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or steep hiking route on a personal trip, but I would definitely use them with students.
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But again, that's definitely not the case for me anymore. Like now I'm really taking care of my
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knees because I've had knee surgery three times. So things are different from when I was younger to
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how I look at things now.
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Has there been a climb or a moment that fundamentally changed how you see risk or responsibility?
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Not really. No. I just think, you know, being responsible for people's safety in the mountains
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makes me really, really pay attention to the details. But there hasn't been one specific
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thing that has changed me.
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So you've always been safe in the mountains?
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I don't know. I mean, probably not, Cody. I mean, there's been a handful of times where I've had my
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own accident, you know. I've said in an interview one time, I was camping up on the third bench of
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the Valdez Glacier on a big snow machine trip, big ski trip. And, you know, we got weathered in from
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a freak storm. And we did our due diligence. We were in an arctic oven. So there were breathable
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walls in the tent. And, you know, we were making sure that we were well ventilated when we were
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cooking in there. But we all three got carbon monoxide poisoning. So, but it's like, you know,
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and we were doing everything that we could, right. But the accidents just happen, you know. I mean,
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but I do like to think that I try my best.
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So that carbon monoxide poisoning, how did you get out of that situation? Did you just leave
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the hut that you guys created? Or, I mean, because all of the stories about carbon monoxide poisoning
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that I've heard of are, I mean, pretty deadly and tragic.
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Yeah. So the third person in our party got up and went outside and
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all of a sudden said, hey, guys, you should come out here. The air is really good out here. And
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you're like, oh no, we're okay. We're pretty tired. We're just going to go take a nap.
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And he's like, no, no, come out here. And so we did. And then we realized, oh my gosh, you know,
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like, you know, we were all kind of dizzy. And we, so that was definitely spooked us.
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If it wasn't for the person, that third person in our party, it would not have ended so well.
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Yeah. That's scary. Cause getting dizzy is, you know, that's, that's one of the symptoms,
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getting dizzy and tired, I should say.
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Yep. Yep.
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Yeah. So when you're climbing,
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how do you make decisions in real time? You know, what are you listening for internally?
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Oh, such a good question, Cody. How do I make decisions in real time? I mean,
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time definitely slows down when you're in the mountains and you have, you know, you just have
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to, you have to listen to your body. You have to listen to the weather. You have to listen to
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your partner. You have to listen to the rock or the route in front of you.
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So there's a lot of things that you're paying attention to and you just have to be
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able to adjust and be flexible if things need to change.
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Do you have any examples of that? You know, when you're out there and you have a plan
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and you realize that, you know, weather is coming in and you need to adjust that plan
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and you've been doing this for so long now that I feel like
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you have a big pool to draw from, you know, you have a lot of tools.
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Yeah, sure. I mean, there's been so many times that I've turned around and, and I'm not,
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I'm not a summit fever person. So if you want to be in the mountains with me
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and you have to get to the summit, I'm not a person that you should go with.
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Let's just plan for that. Because I really like the journey and yeah, sure. I love,
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don't get me wrong. I love staying at the top of a peak and looking around 365 degrees around you.
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Oh my gosh, it's incredible. But that's not the point of, for me, that's not the point of the
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climb. For me, the point of the climb is to get up and down safely and have an incredible experience
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and to learn throughout the way. So yeah, I mean, there's lots of times where we've turned around.
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So, you know, I did climb Cotopaxi, a big peak in Ecuador. Then we also tried to do,
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um, um, what's the other one? Uh, another 19,000 foot peak, um, in Ecuador. And we actually turned
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around on that one because it was heavily crevasse and I actually did through, I did fall through,
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uh, um, an ice bridge. I opened up an ice bridge and so fell down into a crevasse there. And, um,
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you know, we had to stop and check with our party and, uh, we just, we turned around. So
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yeah, the conditions have to be good and you have to be willing to just change and move
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when the conditions aren't, aren't right for you to make it to the top.
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You said that you're not a summit fever person. Nope. Not anymore.
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No, not anymore. Okay. Um, I guess, what does that look like to not be a summit fever person?
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Are you, are you just out there kind of making your way to the top, kind of taking in the view,
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smelling the flowers? And then if you reach a situation, an impasse, then, you know,
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you're more likely to be like, you know, it's not a big deal. I'll turn around.
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Um, yes, yes and no, for sure. Definitely when we reached that point in the road, uh, we,
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I like to stop and chat with my partners. Like, hey, you know, how's the snow for you?
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Are you seeing any red flags? Are you hearing any whooping? Are you seeing any cracking,
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shooting cracks? Are you, um, what's the weather doing? Like, um, how's your mindset?
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So all these things, like I, I want to talk about with my partner. Uh, and if they,
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or I don't feel comfortable, or there are red flags or, you know, we're getting in the, in the
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yellow or orange or red zone in terms of our comfort, then we should be fine with turning
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around. So those are conversations that you should be willing and able to have
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at the ready with your partner and yourself.
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You said before that you aren't a summit fever person anymore. Does that mean that you used to
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be? Absolutely. Yeah. When I was a teen, uh, when I was a young, young person, I loved getting
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to the top of mountains. And for me, it's like, well, you know, so Cody, you, you grew up in
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Anchorage. So we had Flat Top right behind our houses in Anchorage, uh, that you got here.
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And Flat Top is such an easy, uh, accessible mountain, but it still feels so big when you're
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on it and when you're in it. So it's, um, you know, I would run up Flat Top and try to beat
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my time all the time. And so, but I wouldn't, but I wouldn't want to do Flat Top unless I was
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going to get to the top. And that was kind of silly of me back in the day, but, but it's just
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kind of how I trained. It was my mindset back in the day, but now, you know, I don't mind doing,
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you know, climbs or, or mountains or any objective and not going, going out in the field, not being
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like, Hey, I have to get to the top of that to ski down or the top of that summit to, to feel,
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to feel successful. That doesn't, that doesn't really matter to me. It's nice,
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but it doesn't really matter to me anymore. I wonder if it doesn't matter to you anymore
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because you've been climbing for so many years now and you've done so much that now
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maybe you don't feel like you need to prove yourself. Yeah, I mean, me, I, uh, I definitely
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feel, I just turned 39 on Friday. Woo-hoo. Happy birthday to me. Happy birthday. Yeah. Thanks.
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Yeah. So I just, I definitely feel way more comfortable in my skin and with my friends and
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just my community. I just feel comfortable, um, with who I am. So maybe that is what it is.
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And I didn't really give it much thought until now. Yeah. I feel a little bit more settled in.
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I'm actually really looking forward to turning 40. Yeah, that's great.
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Get out of my thirties. I'm ready to get, I'm ready to get out of my thirties.
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You know, I have a question here about fear and that is, do you see fear as something to manage,
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something to listen to or something to override? I definitely think fear is something to be listened
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to and you should definitely pay attention to fear. Yes. 100%. Do you want to override it? I
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don't know. I mean, you want to, you want to listen to your body. You want to listen to what
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fear is saying to you. And why are you scared? What's making you fearful? Um, I had a friend
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once tell me, don't worry, but take precautions. And I really liked that. So if you worry, you're
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going to become anxious and fearful and really like, what are, what exactly is that coming from?
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And can you just take the precautions to move through that fear and push through that fear?
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And that's, that's very important, but I don't think you should turn away from fear.
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That's not, that's not how, that's not how we grow. Yeah.
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Are there situations where fear has actually made you a better climber?
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Hmm. Yeah, sure. Let's see. What has fear made me a better climber?
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Oh, I mean, yeah. I mean, being scared makes you really look at yourself. Like,
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what am I scared of? Why am I scared of that thing? And can I move through it? And you learn
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you learn so much about yourself when you're in those moments by giving yourself grace and
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patience and paying attention and asking yourself questions. Um, so yeah, I think very much so.
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Can you remember a recent time where you recognized a fear of your own and,
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you know, sided in on conquering that situation or facing that fear head-on?
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Hmm. Let's see.
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I do a lot of things by myself now, Cody. Um, so yeah, being in the back country by yourself,
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it's a different type of risk tolerance, different level of risk tolerance.
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Um, yeah, being, being in the wilderness, there's all these,
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there's all these, uh, people that sort of make you afraid of going in the back country by
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yourself because of bears. Oh, how are you gonna protect yourself from bear? How are you gonna
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protect yourself if you get hurt? And those are all, you know, those are all like understandable
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questions, but I feel like we shouldn't be pumping fear into people for being alone. It's actually
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really nice to be able to sit with yourself alone, maybe the mountains by yourself if you're,
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um, willing to lower your, your risk a little bit. Um, but I think being in the wilderness alone,
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that's kind of where I push through a lot of my personal fear. Um, can I do a three-day trip by
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myself, um, safely? Um, will, will I turn around if I, um, if I, if I question things or the
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conditions aren't just right? Um, and it has that look for me and, and is it, am I going to judge
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myself or shame myself or bring myself up or if I'm going to just enjoy the process? So I think
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a lot of times in more, in my older life now, a lot of those experiences come from just being in
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the mountains by myself. Yeah. And when did you start going out into the mountains by yourself?
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I always kind of have, but more recently in my thirties, because just a lot of my friends have
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families, you know, uh, and, and my partner does two on two off. So he, you know, he's not around
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all the time to go on my adventures. And, uh, so I guess it mostly in my thirties, I've just
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spent a lot of time in the mountains solo. Yeah. Are there any climbs that you won't do?
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Oh, pretty much anything, uh, on the turning an arm. So for those that don't know what the
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turning an arm is, it's a, there's a stretch of road here, just South of Anchorage. Uh, and it's
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what we, it's a bunch of junky rock called Chugach crud, basically is what we call it. And it's just,
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you grab a hold and it falls off in your hand. And so it's dangerous, but, um, yeah, uh, you know,
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I'm definitely not pushing myself into the teens, like five 11s plus I'd rather just do five
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eights, five nines all day, you know, easy, long, like 10 pitch, uh, beautiful crack climbs. Like,
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that's what I want to do. Super fun. Kind of like that, but yeah, there's, yeah. And do I want to
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climb Everest? I don't think so. I want to climb Denali. Sure. Okay. So yeah, sure. There's a lot.
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Yeah. And does that have to do with proximity? Well, Denali, I can look at her all the time,
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you know, she's just such a striking mountain. Uh, and Everest just seems, yeah, it just doesn't
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really appeal to me for whatever reason. I don't know if it's just, I'm not sure. Yeah. But Denali
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is just, yeah. Being born and raised in Alaska, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
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I just definitely want to climb that one day if I'm lucky enough to do it.
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I think it's interesting that you just said that you can look at Denali, you know, it's almost like
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a little bit of a trophy, you know, I did that rather than if you did a mountain outside of
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Alaska, you can't really look at that. You can't really point to it and say, I did that.
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Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's something about that, isn't there? Uh, cause you know,
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driving down the road here in Anchorage or the highway, there's a lot of things that I like,
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oh yeah, I went up that, I went up that, I went up that, I did that, I did that. So it does,
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there is something to be said for that for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, um,
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I've heard that a lot from snowboarders who, um, used to do these first descents in Valdez
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and Thompson pass way back when, you know, like the early nineties, uh, like late eighties or
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maybe mid eighties. And they would just point to a peak and, you know, a heli pilot would drop them
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off and you hear them talk about it. You know, it's this point of pride to be like, oh, I did
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that before, you know, anybody, I did meteorite before anybody got up there and did it. Um,
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and I feel like that adds to, you know, your identity as an Alaskan, your identity as a
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snowboarder in that situation. Yeah. 100%. I mean, that's so interesting. I mean, the,
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the first person that ever skied meteorite, I don't know who that was, but I mean, that is the,
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that's, I mean, that line is so striking. You can see it from the highway. So it's like, I mean,
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who doesn't want to ski meteorite? Um, and you know, the tusk is, you know, when Dean Cummings
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skied the tusk, that was like the most like jaw dropping thing that he got, you know, he repelled
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out of his heli and onto the top of the tusk and then went down to where just like the Berkshire
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just hit the mountain and then ski down. It was like the most insane thing. And that definitely
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for me, let contributed to his identity in the way that I look at Dean Cummings for sure.
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So yeah, you're, you're not wrong when you, when you said that.
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You know, as a host, as an interviewer, but also as someone who climbs,
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where do you see yourself in these conversations that you have?
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Are you a storyteller, a guide, a witness, or something else?
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I'm not a storyteller and I'm not a guide. I've actually never, ever, ever wanted to be a guide.
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I worked for Helioski companies for a little over nine years. And it was like, why don't you guide?
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I'm like, no way do I ever want to do that. And same with, um, you know, outdoor education,
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like why don't you go from being an outdoor educator to being a guy? I'm like, no way would
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I want to do that. Um, I, I like, um, I like facilitating experiences for people. I really
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like helping people learn who they are and helping them learn new tools, like learn how to cook in
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the back country, how to use a stove, how to go poop in the back country, like leave no trace.
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I like to teach people how to do things. And then I like to give with, in terms of my podcast,
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I really like to give people a platform to share their story with no shame and no blame,
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no judgment. So they feel really safe and comfortable to be able to share their story
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to minimize future accidents. So that's, I feel like I, I like, I'm more comfortable
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being in the background than being in the foreground. Have you always been like that?
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Oh, no. I mean, I, I used to be very extroverted, very, very, very extroverted. And now I think
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that I'm very introverted and I think somewhere along the lines of my thirties, I've kind of
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just stepped back and, uh, I've gotten more quiet. Um, and yeah, definitely more introverted for sure.
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Do you know why that is?
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Maybe it's what we kind of talked about earlier. It's just, you know, you, you kind of,
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I'm just comfortable with who I am. I'm comfortable in my skin. I'm comfortable
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with where I'm at in life. I'm comfortable with the things that I've done and accomplished.
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Uh, I don't feel the need to talk. I don't feel the need to, um, be in the limelight.
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Um, be in the limelight. I don't like being in limelight at all. I actually get,
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I get extremely anxious, um, and, uh, really uncomfortable. So that's why I've put on like
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two podcasts because I, I just don't, I don't want to be, I don't really like it. It's,
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it's very comfortable for me. Are you saying that you, you think doing the podcast is uncomfortable?
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Yes, you do. Okay. Yes. Can we talk about that?
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Sure. Yeah, no, I don't, I don't know. I, it's, I just don't like, uh, talking about myself. I
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don't like, um, yeah, it just makes me nervous. It makes me anxious.
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And are we talking about the Sharpend podcast here? It makes you nervous to do that?
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No, the podcast, my, my podcast doesn't anymore. Uh, I used to actually like rerecord my voice
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because I just hated the way I would sound after listening to myself during the editing process,
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but I don't care anymore. It's like, that's how I sound. That's who I am. That is,
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that is Ashley and whether I like it or not, this is me. So I'm more comfortable with my podcast
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now for sure. After, especially for 11 years, I better be, but, but being, being a guest on
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other people's shows, I've said no so many times because I just, I just don't, I just feel
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uncomfortable. It's makes me really anxious and I'm actually like way more shy than I used to be.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that I am similar, um, somewhat because I don't know if I like being
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on other podcasts and it's not because I don't like answering questions. It's just that I talk
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so much and I'm so self analytical and hard on myself that if I were to be on another podcast,
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be interviewed by somebody, I would be trying to not waste anybody's time. Like,
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what can I say right now that's different from what I've already said?
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Yeah. 100%. And also like, what do I have to offer? It's like, you've been asking me for a
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long time, I don't know, two or three years or something like that to be on the show.
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And I'm like, yeah, sure. And then I like try, you know, I mean, I'm also like really busy and
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my schedule is very chaotic. Like I, I work, I have two other part-time jobs along with my podcast
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and those other jobs are on call. So my schedule is very, um, like it could change within five
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minutes. So it's really hard to, to, to nail me down. But I also kind of like, you know,
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I just don't really know what I have to offer the world in terms of like, well,
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what are people going to learn from, from my, from my questions and my answers? Like, I mean,
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is it, is it valuable? And I don't really know the answer to that question, but again,
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that's not really for me to decide. So it's like, well, if somebody wants to interview me or hear
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my, or hear what I have to say, then that is because they're genuinely curious and it's not
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for me to decide. So that's what I'm trying to like grapple with, I think.
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Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot because I have thought the same exact thing where,
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um, you know, in my mind, I'm like, I do an interview podcast. I'm interviewing people
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because they're interesting, not because I'm interesting. And that's how I've always felt
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about, um, interviewers. You know, my favorite interviewers are people who ask the question
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and then get out of the way, you know, for, for the guest, because the reason that anybody tunes
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in, in my opinion, or the reason that I tune in to an interview is to hear the interviewee,
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not the interviewer, you know, on episode, you know, 2,465, you've heard enough of that
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person's voice. So yeah, I'm similar. I don't know why people would want to listen to me.
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Um, so I get it. Well, but I'm the same note, Cody, they do. And that's why they listen to,
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you know, the podcast is because they do like you. And they do like the questions that you ask,
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and they do like your interview form. So that's why they listen to that show. And that's why
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people listen to The Sharpen is because they like, they love the stories. They love to learn from
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each guest on the show, but they also like the way that I am. And I was like, no, they don't.
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It's not me. But I've gotten a lot of emails saying that, that, hey, actually, thank you so
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much for being a good host for getting out of the way when you know, and letting your,
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your guests to share their story without constantly interrupting them. And that I get
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that a lot. And I and I really appreciate that feedback a lot. And I hope that I can continue
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to do that and ask the right questions when the questions need to be asked. But it doesn't always
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go perfect to plan. And I'm sure I irritate some people or some listeners, per my iTunes reviews,
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but you know, we do the best that we can. So for sure. That's all we can do is the best that we
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can. Absolutely. You know, I was doing my research on you. And I came across the fact that you lost
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your hearing in your right ear in your 20s. And since then, you've been completely deaf on that
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side. How does that affect your climbing? And then also doing interviews for the podcast?
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I did do your research. Yeah, I definitely I so I went to bed. I don't know what I don't know
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what year it was in my early 20s. But yeah, I went to sleep. And I woke up the next morning,
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completely deaf in my right ear, as you said, and there wasn't any trauma or like a concert
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the day before or I wasn't cleaning my ears out. There was nothing that I did that caused this to
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happen. So after a while, I kind of was like, Oh, well, it went away in the middle of the night,
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but I'll probably come back in the middle of the night. Girl math. So, you know,
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sometime went by and I'm like, Hi, still can't hear out of that ear strange. So I went to the
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doctor eventually because my family was like, Well, maybe it's a tumor. And I'm like, Well,
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maybe it is. So we actually went in and it's not that it's called sudden sensory neural hearing
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loss. It's a long special name for basically the nerves died in that year. So yeah, I can't hear
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out of that ear at all. So my headphones only work on one side. Well, they work on both sides,
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but I can only hear from the one side. And, you know, it changed my equilibrium a lot. So I got
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dizzy pretty quickly, but I've gotten used to it now. I actually was fitted for when I was giving
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COVID vaccines in Arizona one year working for FEMA. I met an audiologist there and she actually
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fitted me for a recycled pair of hearing aids from a gentleman that just had passed away. And
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he's like, I want these earbuds when I die to go to somebody really nice. And so this lady was like,
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Hey, you're nice. Do you want these hearing aids? And I said, Whoa, my goodness. Yeah. So she fitted
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me for them. And it was really cool to be able to hear out of both ears. I was like, Oh my gosh,
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this is insane. It was such a crazy sensation after so many, after, you know, 10 plus years
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of not being able to hear out of my right ear. But to be honest, they're more cumbersome to use.
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So I don't, I don't use them anymore. I've gotten used to making it work. My left ear is really,
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it's really good. And if I, you know, I'll often just put, if I'm sitting next to you or walking
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alongside of you, I'll have you on my left side. When I, when I go to sleep, I'll actually be on
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my left side. So my right ear, like I don't, I don't hear anything. So everything's just sort
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of muffled. So there are perks, you know, to have being deaf in your right ear for sure.
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Okay.
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The perks of when you sleep and perks when you're at the bar and like some,
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you know, perverts hitting on you, you just like put them on your right side and you don't know
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what they're saying. So, but yeah, things have changed for me. My senses are definitely peaked.
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Though in my late thirties, I got really bad allergies. And so I'm like always plugged up.
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And my left ear is really good.
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Yeah. Well, that's good. I'm happy to hear that you've, you've found
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the positive repercussions of it. Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah.
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What drew you to the idea of building a show around near misses instead of summits or successes?
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I like to learn from people's mistakes. That's how I learned. I used to read the books,
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Accidents in North American Climbing by the American Alpine Club when I was in my teens
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and twenties. That book comes out annually. And it's just basically an annual book that
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they put out that has accidents from all over the United States and Canada and Mexico in there,
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mountaineering, climbing incidents, and what went wrong and what the lessons learned from
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those incidents were. And so I'm like, man, someone should make this into a podcast. And then
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about a week goes by and I'm like, you know what? I want to do that. Even though I have no idea how
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to do it. And so that's kind of what inspired the idea was from reading those books and wanting to
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listen to them from crack to crack to crack instead of reading the book.
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What do you think we learn from near misses, tragedies, and triumphs that we don't from
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successes? Gosh, I mean, you probably remember them more. Maybe. I mean, there's been so many
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successes that I've heard, so many success stories that I've heard. But the ones that,
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the stories that I've heard, the things that stick in my mind the most are some of the really bad
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accidents. The one in particular that I could think of is when I interviewed Adam Campbell,
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when he lost his wife, Laura, in an avalanche. And he skied down to find her. He found her on
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the beacon. He got to the probe. He did a probe strike and started digging. And he dug 12 feet
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down and then finally exposed the first part of her body. And it was her left hand with her
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wedding ring on it. So that visual for me is forever grained in my brain just from listening
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to him share that story with me over a call and imagining that he could never unsee that.
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I could never unhear that. But do I remember half the story of when he was talking to me about his
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ski tour up the mountain and how that was successful? I don't remember any of that part
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of the story. But what I remember was the tragedy from the story. So I don't know. Maybe it's just,
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yeah, what settles for you. I mean, there's been successes for sure that have been ingrained in my
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brain, like standing on the top of Cotopaxi, standing on top of Rainier. So I've had successes
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where I'm like, oh my gosh, I just want to fall to my knees and start crying. It's so beautiful.
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And similarly, I've felt the same about accidents and things that I can't unsee.
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Mm hmm. What do you think it means that we tend to remember tragedies
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and hardships more readily than we do successes?
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I don't know. It's the human experience.
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Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's interesting to me that we as humans, you know, the human experience,
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we tend to focus more on the negative than we do the positive, even though we tend to
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trudge through the negative to get to the positive. And there is positive, but, you know,
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here we are focusing on the negative. Yeah, we certainly are. I am certainly my own worst critic,
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for sure. I beat myself up so bad. It's kind of crazy. It's like, I would never talk to you
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or my partner the way that I talk to myself, ever. So it's like, why am I talking to myself
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that way? Why am I saying or thinking those terrible things about myself that way? Why do
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I do that when I would never do that to anybody else? So it's like, I try and give myself the
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same respect that I would give anybody else. And, you know, yeah, I do think that society puts,
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you know, this emphasis on success, but it's for us to say, like, well, what is success? And
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for me, success has changed. And we've touched on that already today. But
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success in my teens and 20s was topping out on a climb. It was getting to the peak of a mountain.
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That was success to me. And if I didn't get to the top, what's the point? You know,
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the objective is to get to the top. But now success to me is getting down safely and having
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a really great story to tell or really good experience throughout the way. You know, it's like
375
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:21,439
success can look like, you know, instead of saying, I asked so many of my listeners, well,
376
00:41:21,439 --> 00:41:27,520
what went wrong? What did you learn? What were the lessons learned from your accident? And I've now
377
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:35,040
gotten in the habit of saying, well, also, what went right? You know, because that's equally
378
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,040
important to celebrate than what went wrong. It's like, what went right? Like, what did you do?
379
00:41:39,679 --> 00:41:44,719
Why didn't something go wrong? So, even if you do get to the summit or something,
380
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,520
you know, you get back to your car, yeah, nothing went wrong. So, then you don't need
381
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,560
to debrief an accident, but maybe debrief what went right and then celebrate those successes.
382
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:56,159
Mm-hmm. I like that.
383
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:05,840
Why do you think there's often a gap between knowing the right decision and actually making it?
384
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:18,639
Oh, time, complacency, judgment error, human factor. There's so many reasons why.
385
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:23,760
You have so many things that can factor into that, like, why we make these choices.
386
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,639
Yeah, everything in hindsight seems...
387
00:42:28,639 --> 00:42:29,679
2020.
388
00:42:29,679 --> 00:42:34,159
Exactly. And it seems to be easier to figure out, you know, when you're looking back
389
00:42:34,879 --> 00:42:38,239
and you're thinking like, oh, I should have done that. You know,
390
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,479
the answer was obvious, but I didn't make the right decision.
391
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,959
Or when you're listening to my show, just laying on your couch and saying, oh,
392
00:42:46,959 --> 00:42:50,959
they should have done that. Like, to should on people is so irritating to me. It's like,
393
00:42:50,959 --> 00:42:56,639
okay, well, you weren't there, okay? And also, by the way, like, that's probably gonna happen to
394
00:42:56,639 --> 00:43:01,600
you in the future. So, like, quit shitting on people and quit judging people. It's like,
395
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:05,120
because accidents can happen to anybody. So, it's just, that's what my podcast is all about,
396
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,520
is learning from these people, learning from their lessons, instead of judging and shaming,
397
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:15,199
and knowing that they, anybody can make a mistake. That's so important for me to get
398
00:43:15,199 --> 00:43:20,399
through on this show, is like, anybody can make a mistake. And everybody will.
399
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:28,239
Do you think, having done this show for 11 years, you know, talking to all these people who have,
400
00:43:29,199 --> 00:43:39,199
you know, some type of story, for better or for worse, about their climbing experience,
401
00:43:40,479 --> 00:43:46,879
you are more understanding of, you know, those incidents that happen to people?
402
00:43:46,879 --> 00:43:47,360
Yeah.
403
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,520
And less judgy about it?
404
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:57,040
I'm a very, I'm a compassionate person, like, to my detriment. My heart is so big. Like,
405
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,919
I, like, feel people when they, like, I'm often, like, crying on each episode with,
406
00:44:01,919 --> 00:44:06,159
with my guests. Like, they, I mean, holding space for their trauma and their accident is
407
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:11,280
so emotional for me. And it's emotionally exhausting for me, too. So, but yeah, I mean,
408
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,439
I don't, I don't think that I've ever, ever, I mean, I mean, I probably have back in the day,
409
00:44:15,439 --> 00:44:20,399
but I really don't ever want to judge anybody. I don't want that in my heart. I don't like that
410
00:44:20,399 --> 00:44:28,239
feeling. I don't, I try to just look at things objectively and with an open heart and an open
411
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:33,280
mind. And I really, I hope that I never judge anybody, but maybe, maybe I might accidentally,
412
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,639
but I hope that I don't.
413
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:43,199
How do you help someone in an interview reconstruct a moment that may have been
414
00:44:43,199 --> 00:44:44,639
chaotic or even traumatic?
415
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:50,560
Oh, I just, I walk them through it. I walk, I have them start from the very beginning,
416
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,879
tell me the whole story from, you know, every detail they can remember from what the weather
417
00:44:54,879 --> 00:45:01,199
was doing. Was it sunny? Was it warm? What did it sound like? Were you hungry? Were you hot?
418
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:05,600
Were you cold? And like really making them stop and think about these little details
419
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,639
helps walk them through the whole, the whole experience over again.
420
00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:14,159
That sounds very similar to what a psychiatrist does.
421
00:45:16,159 --> 00:45:24,000
Oh yeah, maybe. Yeah, it does. Cause it, it slows you down and it gets, it gets you in the moment.
422
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,479
It gets you really kind of digging deep in the vault of your brain to like dig up those,
423
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:36,320
those details, those finer, the finer moments. And hopefully you can, you know,
424
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:41,040
remember things that you, you might not, if you're just, you know, if you're, if you're,
425
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:41,840
if you're fear-based.
426
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:49,199
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think focusing on those smaller details like the weather or what you
427
00:45:49,199 --> 00:45:56,239
were wearing, then you can kind of fill in the story around that. And, and I think that the,
428
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:07,760
those details probably feel so innocuous and, you know, less harmful than falling in a crevasse.
429
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:08,239
Yeah.
430
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,760
You know, I think it's more manageable to be like, yeah, I was wearing a red hat.
431
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:17,520
Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. The brain, the brain is very interesting.
432
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:25,760
Yeah. Memory is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is,
433
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,760
is, is memory is this ever evolving thing that's
434
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:33,760
always shifting and reshaping itself over time. Do you ever find that a
435
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:39,679
guest's memory gets fuzzy or changes as they're telling the story?
436
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:44,239
As they're telling it? No, not really. But my memory has gotten very fuzzy as time has
437
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:54,560
gone by. Yeah. I guess I have white matter on my brain or something. And so I feel like my,
438
00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:02,719
my memory is slipping in a big way. I don't remember most of, I don't remember a lot of stuff
439
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:07,280
from my teens and my early twenties. And I, I don't know if that's cause I grew up above a
440
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:13,360
paint shop when I was really little. Okay. Or the white, the white matter on my brain. I'm
441
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:19,040
not really sure, but I definitely notice. I have a hard time remembering a lot of stuff
442
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:25,520
unless it's written down. I, I, yeah, it's challenging. Yeah. What does that mean to have
443
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:32,719
white matter on your brain? I don't know. I guess it's, I guess it's not a good thing. Okay.
444
00:47:33,679 --> 00:47:38,959
And if I had health insurance, I'd be able to tell you more, but I don't. Okay. Yeah.
445
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:48,560
Have you found that your guests come to you after having made sense of what happened
446
00:47:48,639 --> 00:47:51,919
or are they still in the process of understanding it?
447
00:47:53,919 --> 00:47:58,959
Both. Some aren't, some will reach out to me and say, Hey, I have a story to tell.
448
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,000
And I'll say, okay, you know, what's, you know, can you get, can you give me a paragraph
449
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:09,840
right up of it? Oh, wow. That was really recent. And then like, okay, let's schedule the interview.
450
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,760
And then they'll be like, okay, actually, I'm not ready to talk about it. Oh, actually I want
451
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,439
to cancel the interview altogether. So it's really interesting. Like, but it's a, you know,
452
00:48:17,439 --> 00:48:21,040
maybe their accident happened a year ago. Maybe it happened five years ago. Maybe it happened
453
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:28,800
last week. Um, and so some are not at all ready to share their accident or some think they're
454
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:34,479
ready to share and they just break down in tears and get very emotional on the call. So, but I,
455
00:48:34,479 --> 00:48:38,639
I helped them work through that trauma in the moment and they're like, Oh my gosh, thank you
456
00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:43,840
so much. That was like really healing for me. So, and then some have, some have had plenty of time
457
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:53,199
to, to kind of, uh, uh, recover, I guess, emotionally from their incident. So it definitely
458
00:48:53,199 --> 00:48:58,239
vary. There's a big, broad, uh, area of like who my guests are and how they show up.
459
00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:08,000
In your experience, how long after an experience is someone ready to talk about it?
460
00:49:08,879 --> 00:49:15,199
It varies per person. Uh, some people could talk about it and also it varies per person. And it
461
00:49:15,199 --> 00:49:24,239
also varies in terms of the, uh, the severity of the incident. Right. So like Adam, who lost his
462
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:29,360
wife, wasn't ready to talk about it out of the gate. Right. Of course. Uh, it took him a long
463
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:35,760
time to be able to walk aboard and share what happened that day. Um, there was a lady who, uh,
464
00:49:35,919 --> 00:49:43,280
who, uh, I talked to who, she had an incident, um, 30 years prior to talking to me on the phone
465
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,560
and she was still hardly ready to talk about it and still had not forgiven herself for what
466
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,679
had happened. So, and that was 30 years prior. So it's like, it just varies per person.
467
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:03,120
Do these stories reveal something deeper about why people seek out risk? You know, these edges,
468
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,879
places where consequences are amplified.
469
00:50:09,199 --> 00:50:15,840
It's exciting. I mean, we, we, we like to flirt with the edge. That's right. I mean, it's, it's
470
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:22,560
nice to know who you are when, you know, the weather changes and things like it's easy to be
471
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:28,879
yourself when it's rainbows and lollipops. Right. But who are you when it's pouring down rain and
472
00:50:28,879 --> 00:50:34,800
you're out of food and it's, you're, you're benighted on the route and you don't have a
473
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:40,879
sleeping bag or a tent. Like who are you in those moments? So it's exciting. Like you learn who you
474
00:50:40,879 --> 00:50:46,239
are. You learn who your partner is. Um, and that's, that's where, like, that's where the
475
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:53,199
growth is. Right. It's again, it's so easy to be yourself, uh, rainbow, sunshine, warm weather,
476
00:50:54,159 --> 00:51:02,239
but that's also boring. Who are you in those moments? Oh, I have a lot of people
477
00:51:04,479 --> 00:51:10,879
and also still trying to figure it out every time. You know, I get scared for sure. Uh, I get, I get,
478
00:51:10,879 --> 00:51:18,000
I could panic. Um, but I can also come out of that and objectively think like, okay, what is going on?
479
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:25,280
What, uh, is it just wind that's scaring me? Or is it, am I actually in danger? And oftentimes
480
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,959
it's just wind, you know, and like wind makes everything scarier, doesn't it? So it's like,
481
00:51:28,959 --> 00:51:32,800
if you can just remove the wind altogether, then it's like, oh, it's actually not that bad. Um,
482
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:38,639
but yeah, I mean, I, I'm also learning who I am in those moments and I, I'm trying to
483
00:51:39,439 --> 00:51:45,120
grow every, every time shit hits the fan. I like that.
484
00:51:48,959 --> 00:51:57,520
Have you ever chose not to release a story? Yes, you have. Okay. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
485
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:03,040
not everyone's a good storyteller. Uh, it can be, it can be disjointed. It can be like way more
486
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:09,280
effort and work to edit than I think the value is in terms of the lessons learned or the outcome.
487
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:15,520
Um, or, you know, I, the, the audio didn't record properly because of the wifi connection or,
488
00:52:16,479 --> 00:52:22,080
um, or there just wasn't, there weren't enough lessons learned. It was more of like a hero story
489
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,639
versus like what my, what I want my audience and my listeners to get out of it. So yeah,
490
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:34,320
there, I probably haven't released 15 of the ones that I've recorded. It's a shame. It's a shame. I
491
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:43,679
always feel really bad. Um, but it just, yeah, just the way it is. Yeah. And what do those people
492
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:53,520
say if anything? Um, it's, it's a delicate conversation, Cody. Yeah. It's a delicate
493
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:01,360
because I want everyone's story to, to be shared for sure. That's why I do the show,
494
00:53:01,919 --> 00:53:07,439
but there's a lot of factors why this, it might not be released, um, for the reasons that I
495
00:53:07,439 --> 00:53:11,520
mentioned earlier, but yeah, it's definitely delicate and it makes me, it makes me very
496
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:20,239
uncomfortable to have that conversation. Yeah. I bet that's tough. It is tough. Yeah. Um, but
497
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,560
it needs to be done sometimes. And so with that said, if you don't want to release this one,
498
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:31,040
that's fine. I'm definitely releasing this one. Well, you can think about it. You don't
499
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:39,360
have to, if you don't want to. Um, how does remoteness show up in the decision-making
500
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:47,840
of your guests? You know, here I'm thinking of Alaska and how it introduces a level of isolation
501
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:55,840
that changes the stakes. Yeah. The farther back that you go, the less, you know, the less resources
502
00:53:55,840 --> 00:54:00,959
there are to come save you. Right. People know that. Um, so that's why people are so scared of
503
00:54:00,959 --> 00:54:04,239
pressing the SOS button on their inReach device or their Zolio devices, because they're like,
504
00:54:04,239 --> 00:54:10,080
oh my gosh, this is going to do a huge ripple effect, um, on and impact people that aren't just
505
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:15,840
in my near circle. Uh, it's going to impact the pilot, the rescuers, the SAR, the SAR personnel,
506
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:22,000
their families. So there's, there's definitely like way more involved. It just, it becomes,
507
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:27,919
it's not just you. Once you step foot into that country, there's, you're, you're one of, you,
508
00:54:27,919 --> 00:54:32,879
you have the, the ability to impact way more people than just yourself. And I, and I think
509
00:54:32,879 --> 00:54:43,679
that people know that. How does someone decide to press that SOS button? I like, or I think that
510
00:54:44,879 --> 00:54:47,760
what you just said is really interesting. You know, that, that someone could be
511
00:54:48,399 --> 00:54:52,479
in the back country. They could be in this really dire situation. They could be in danger,
512
00:54:53,280 --> 00:55:00,719
but then, you know, they're contemplating whether or not they want to press that button because
513
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:09,439
of the ripple effect that it creates. Yeah. That's a great question. And that is that those,
514
00:55:09,439 --> 00:55:15,199
those moments before pressing that button, uh, are, are going to look a lot different for
515
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:20,320
everybody who's like facing that decision. Uh, it's a conversation to have with your partner.
516
00:55:20,959 --> 00:55:27,840
Um, it's, you know, can you, can you get out alone? Like, yeah, you might have a broken arm,
517
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,959
but like, are you, is an open or closed fracture? Like, are you bleeding out? I can't, can you,
518
00:55:32,959 --> 00:55:35,919
can you still walk out on your own, even though you have a broken arm? So like,
519
00:55:35,919 --> 00:55:42,000
these are questions that I, that nobody can answer, but the person involved, um, and hopefully
520
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:48,879
they actually sit down and calmly, objectively think about the pros and the cons before,
521
00:55:49,439 --> 00:55:54,080
before pressing that button and, um, and affecting many more people than themselves.
522
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:59,120
But I think when we poo-poo people for pressing the button, I think that we should be cautious
523
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:04,159
about that too, because we don't know what they're going through. So it's so hard to
524
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:08,959
judge people like, oh, you should have called SAR for that because da-da-da-da. It's like, well,
525
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,760
like, who are we to know? We're not in that, we're not in their position. So it's just,
526
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,239
I think being cautious about that is, is very important.
527
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:23,120
Mm-hmm. How often do you encounter
528
00:56:25,199 --> 00:56:32,000
romanticism about Alaska from people who maybe you're not from here?
529
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:41,280
Uh, everybody. Oh my gosh. Alaska has got this lure, this, this drama behind it. You know,
530
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,439
I mean, you see that even today, all the, all the heli-skiers that come up here every year,
531
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,800
um, it's, it's the cream of the crop. It's, you know, it's the last frontier. So
532
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:59,280
Alaska is very romanticized, um, which does pose, you know, danger. Um, but people,
533
00:57:00,159 --> 00:57:07,679
we call it the Alaska factor. So USGS maps are in the, like in the lower 48, there are 40-foot
534
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:13,520
contour intervals, but in Alaska, the USGS maps are 100-foot contour intervals. So when people
535
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:18,159
come up to Alaska to go hiking and they, they're like, oh my goodness, they didn't really take that
536
00:57:18,159 --> 00:57:24,719
into account. Like you, you could have a 99-foot cliff, you know, in the real world that would not
537
00:57:24,719 --> 00:57:29,360
show up on a map in Alaska because, you know, our contour intervals are a hundred feet plus.
538
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:34,000
So it's, it's so fascinating, the Alaska factor, like everything is bigger up here. There's more
539
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:38,399
bears, there's more bad, there's, there's bad weather. There's, I mean, there's bad bugs. Like
540
00:57:38,399 --> 00:57:45,760
everything is worse up here for sure. Um, and people, people have to definitely stop and pause
541
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:54,560
and give the Alaska respect it needs. Do people who have told you their stories and
542
00:57:55,760 --> 00:58:00,239
their story involves Alaska, do those people
543
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:09,840
not return to Alaska because of their situation or does that situation or incident deepen their
544
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:16,320
connection to Alaska? Both. Some people get so terrified of Alaska for the Alaska factor,
545
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:21,520
they never return. But some people are like, oh my gosh, it was such a beautiful experience. I learned
546
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:27,280
so much. Uh, I'm going to come back next year and try it again or try a different objective. Oh yeah,
547
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:32,159
it's, you get, you get all different types of people. Alaska is such a beautiful place. Oh my
548
00:58:32,159 --> 00:58:37,520
gosh, it's such a beautiful place. And you know, you mentioned Tops of the Pass before, there's
549
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:42,800
people that come to Tops of the Pass every single year, every spring, they come up for two, two
550
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:48,719
weeks to four weeks. Every single spring, I'll see them at the pass, you know, snowboarding or skiing
551
00:58:48,719 --> 00:58:54,639
and, um, those are diehard. So they come back every year. Some people come back, come one year
552
00:58:55,199 --> 00:59:00,879
and are like, oh my gosh, that was next level. I got my ass handed to me. I'm so embarrassed. I'm
553
00:59:00,879 --> 00:59:15,360
never coming back. Many climbers carry a strong sense of identity tied to competence. What happens
554
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:22,800
when that identity is challenged in these moments, these incidents, these accidents?
555
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:31,120
When their identity is challenged? I mean, risk makes you look inward. Like when you're,
556
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:36,320
when you are scared or when you're doing something risky, you have every fiber in your
557
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:43,760
being should be paying attention. So it's just, it's just how you move through that risk. That's,
558
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:49,360
that's what defines you. How have you seen that define people, you know, from your own perspective,
559
00:59:50,239 --> 00:59:56,239
hearing a story and seeing the outcome, seeing the repercussions?
560
00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:04,159
Well, there's growth. I think people are growing from what mistakes they made or what they learned
561
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:09,840
from their accident and how that impacts themselves, their partner and their families,
562
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:15,840
their friends. Yeah. It's, um, it could be rewarding. It could be traumatizing for a lot
563
01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,679
of people, what they're going through, what they've seen, what they've done.
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You know, something I keep thinking about is, um, you've been doing the show for over a decade.
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01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:41,280
And when you have all of those years of people telling you stories, I feel like you start
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drawing certain conclusions. Do you have any of that? Do you have any like reflections?
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01:00:50,399 --> 01:00:56,479
Complacency is a big theme in all of my stories. I mean, people, so many of the
568
01:00:56,479 --> 01:01:03,360
incidents would not have occurred if people were not complacent. Um, but also, I mean,
569
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:08,000
there's so many different types of stories and accidents that I've interviewed and shared on
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the Sharpen podcast that they're all so different, you know, so coming to each interview with an open
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01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:20,159
mind and open heart, allowing that person to share their story and their own experience without
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01:01:20,159 --> 01:01:25,760
creating shame, blame, or judgment within that space allows them to be really vulnerable. Um,
573
01:01:26,399 --> 01:01:31,840
and coming to it without any conclusions ahead of time. That's why I don't actually have to tell me
574
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:36,479
the whole story before the show, because I want to, I do want to authentically listen to the story
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01:01:36,479 --> 01:01:40,399
and feel actively engaged when they're telling me their story and sharing that with me in the
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01:01:40,399 --> 01:01:48,719
moment versus like knowing what's going to happen beforehand. Yeah. I like that. I think that's good.
577
01:01:48,719 --> 01:01:53,679
I think that that's, uh, I mean, that's, that's almost journalistic,
578
01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:58,959
you know, where you, you want your reaction to be genuine. Yes. 100%.
579
01:01:58,959 --> 01:02:06,879
What does it mean to you now to be a good climber?
580
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:16,719
Uh, well, I don't climb very much anymore. Uh, you know, I being, being living in Alaska,
581
01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:22,320
it's hard to be a good climber in Alaska, to be honest, I think unless I'm climbing at the
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01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,199
rock gym all the time, but I'm not. So it's, unless you're climbing on a regular basis,
583
01:02:28,159 --> 01:02:33,919
you're, it's hard to, it's hard to stay good at what you do. It's hard to stay in climbing shape.
584
01:02:33,919 --> 01:02:39,600
It's hard to be able to climb five, 10 plus. So I'm just not a very climber anymore. And, um,
585
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:45,679
it's, it's again, there's not that much rock here to, to be consistently good at it. Unfortunately.
586
01:02:46,639 --> 01:02:54,399
Do you think that that affects your interviewing that, um,
587
01:02:56,479 --> 01:03:04,479
you're not regularly participating in the thing that you're interviewing about, or are you able to,
588
01:03:05,439 --> 01:03:12,479
uh, almost take like a coach's perspective? Like I, I know the game so I can still talk about it.
589
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:18,000
Yeah, the ladder for sure. But, um, I do climb sometimes, but just not like I used to. And,
590
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:23,679
and, uh, not every one of my stories is about climbing. It's, it's, uh, it's way more than
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01:03:23,679 --> 01:03:28,080
just rock climbing. Now it's mountaineering, it's backpacking, it's hiking. So there's lots
592
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:32,080
of outdoor activities that I interview people on at them, just climbing solely.
593
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:41,520
What does it mean to you now for you to be out there? You know, now,
594
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:48,239
almost 40 years old versus when you were younger.
595
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:56,320
Hmm. I don't know. I don't know if there's a, yeah, I think the biggest difference is that
596
01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:02,959
I'm not objective oriented anymore. I'm like, I want to enjoy the journey. Um, I also like,
597
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:07,199
you know, sharing it with people. So like, you know, this weekend we went to Swan Lake cabin
598
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:11,040
on the resurrection trail with my friend Renee and her daughter, her three-year-old daughter,
599
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:15,439
Huxley. And it was just so fun to see the joy that it brought up with their faces.
600
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:21,040
That was, that was so fun for me. So, uh, yeah, just sharing with people that you love.
601
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:32,159
When you think about your own life in the outdoors,
602
01:04:34,639 --> 01:04:40,239
what has it shown you about yourself, your tendencies, your limits, even your blind spots?
603
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:49,679
Uh, the wilderness has a way of showing you your limits. Like we, so we all have, we all have
604
01:04:50,239 --> 01:04:55,199
our perceived limits, right? So like, oh, I think that that's as far as I can go. Or I think that's
605
01:04:55,919 --> 01:05:02,479
as hard as I can climb. Or I think that that's whatever, right? We all have what we think that
606
01:05:02,479 --> 01:05:09,600
we can do, but those are perceived limits. I like to push past our perceived limits and try and find
607
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:14,879
that real edge. And that's, what's exciting for me is, is doing that for myself and also helping
608
01:05:14,879 --> 01:05:16,399
people find their edge.
609
01:05:22,159 --> 01:05:28,239
Well, Ashley, those are all the questions I have for you. I want to thank you for your time and
610
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:34,639
for the work you've done and you're doing with The Sharp End, you know, giving people a way
611
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,080
to understand what happens when things don't go according to plan.
612
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,479
Well, thank you very much for having me on the show. I appreciate it.
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01:05:44,479 --> 01:06:05,360
For more information about the Anchorage Museum, visit anchoragemuseum.org.
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01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,000
This podcast was produced by me, Cody Liska, for the Anchorage Museum.
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01:06:12,879 --> 01:06:14,879
With additional help from Julie Decker.
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01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:22,879
Chatter Mark's music is produced by Keys Open Doors.