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[pj_wehry]: oh hello and welcome to chasing leviathan
i'm here today with dr paul moser professor
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[pj_wehry]: of philosophy at the loyola university of
chicago and this is the point where i
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[pj_wehry]: normally showed the book but i got
to enkindle so here kendall
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: the book we're talking about today is
divine guidance from the elements and the problems
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[pj_wehry]: of god series from cambridge university press
r moser wonderful to have you today
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[paul_moser]: thank you p j
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[pj_wehry]: and so kind of as we just
get started i know that you have a
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[pj_wehry]: kind of long and storied career in
these kind of areas but tell us a
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[pj_wehry]: little bit why this book in particular
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[paul_moser]: ever since i was about fifteen years
old i've been haunted by the question of
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[paul_moser]: what would evidence of god look like
because
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: i had evidence from religious experience but
i still wanted to know the heart of
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[paul_moser]: that was what that religious experience included
that made it evidence of god in particular
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: a god worthy of worship and so
i started looking for an answer to the
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[pj_wehry]: excuse
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[paul_moser]: question
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[pj_wehry]: me
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[paul_moser]: of what would evidence of god look
like if it's in evidence of god will
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: you naturally look to what various theologians
and philosophers have said and so that led
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[paul_moser]: me into taking up philosophy uh in
college and then graduate school with the common
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[paul_moser]: and enduring background question of what would
evidence of god actually be and in addition
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[paul_moser]: do we have such evidence well since
i'm fairly slow it took me a long
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[pj_wehry]: uh
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[paul_moser]: time to put some of
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[pj_wehry]: h
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[paul_moser]: pieces of
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: the puzzle together and they've come together
should always say piece meal and i tried
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[paul_moser]: to
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[pj_wehry]: ye
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[paul_moser]: crystalize some of the key views in
this book on divine guidance because in the
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[paul_moser]: end i think that a god worthy
of worship would want to be a good
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[paul_moser]: lord over humans and lordship there means
leadership and so you're at the door of
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[paul_moser]: guidance because leadership as i understand it
would be un coerced guidance
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: and this is echoed i think throughout
not only the palms but parts of the
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[paul_moser]: new testament indeed paul says at one
point that those who are children god are
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[paul_moser]: those who are led guided by god
well what's this leading guiding stuff it's widely
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[paul_moser]: neglected at least in the academic theology
and philosophy literature right including philosophy of religion
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[paul_moser]: so i figured well maybe this is
something crucial that's been overlooked and i would
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[paul_moser]: say that it is indeed in the
divine guidance book is an effort to spell
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[paul_moser]: out what it would be for god
to offer evidence of god towards the end
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[paul_moser]: of guiding people and i claim now
that what god would want above all is
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[paul_moser]: moral report with people where moral report
is
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: similar to what paul calls communion god
in second corinthians um sometimes the word fellowship
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[paul_moser]: is used but i like the word
report because it suggests interaction and
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: inter personal
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: interaction
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: at that and so i claim
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: the heart of the evidence
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: we need for god is not the
abstract stuff natural theology the first cause arguments
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[paul_moser]: the design arguments the fine tuning arguments
ontological i claim that's all too abstract for
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[paul_moser]: the kind of god who was sought
by abraham isaac jacob and paul i claim
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[paul_moser]: that god is one who would want
to guide people as their lord with whom
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[paul_moser]: they have what i call moral
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: report
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[pj_wehry]: i definitely feel like i can understand
the report part of that m can you
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[pj_wehry]: comment a little bit on why you're
adding moral to that is that just that
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[pj_wehry]: it is good or that it has
to do with the moral dimension because i
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[pj_wehry]: remember you reference bober um uh somewhere
in here talking about
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[paul_moser]: m
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[pj_wehry]: not losing that god is not only
the ethical dimension
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[paul_moser]: yes that's a key question and the
answer comes in what i claim is a
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[paul_moser]: word central to all of the important
biblical narratives and that word
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: is righteousness
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[pj_wehry]: m m m
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[paul_moser]: god
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[pj_wehry]: o
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[paul_moser]: is continually described as righteous throughout the
hebrew bible and in the central writings of
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[paul_moser]: the new testament it's god's righteousness that
distinguishes god makes god unique and lo and
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[paul_moser]: behold it's what god wants to show
and enact through humans ezekiel says isaiah suggest
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[paul_moser]: as much and paul talks about the
righteousness god in christ in us in the
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[paul_moser]: followers and so i claim that god
would have at the heart of any kind
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[paul_moser]: of communion with humans
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: any kind of fellowship the maintenance and
promotion of god's unique character of divine righteousness
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[paul_moser]: now i think that's what morality for
the biblical accounts is all about namely bringing
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[paul_moser]: divine righteousness into the life of wayward
humans and that big question becomes how do
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[paul_moser]: you get that and of course the
biblical writers are quite astute on this beginning
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[paul_moser]: with genesis where adam and eve are
portrayed as having a problem with god because
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[paul_moser]: they think god is withholding
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: something good from them indeed
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: including making one wise genesis three says
that that eve thought that um eating of
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[paul_moser]: the fruit of the tree of knowledge
and good evil would make one wise well
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[paul_moser]: as if god had failed on that
front in other words the way to become
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[paul_moser]: wise is to disobey god that's the
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: gist of what he was saying and
uh genesis three and then god has to
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[paul_moser]: do something to challenge this nonsense and
so god sets up the fiery protection for
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[paul_moser]: the a tree of the tree of
life and says you know you people have
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[paul_moser]: to have a break from this setting
but i need to protect people coming to
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[paul_moser]: this completely valuable knowledge by the wrong
means
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: not by the means of even adam
but by the right means and you get
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[paul_moser]: a story about this when you get
to abraham because there god reckons righteousness to
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[paul_moser]: abraham by what not by his creating
his own way of wit dem not by
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[paul_moser]: following eve but as paul says in
romans four as genesis says he trusted god
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[paul_moser]: he
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: didn't distrust
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: he didn't say oh maybe god
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[pj_wehry]: ye
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[paul_moser]: is withholding something good and so in
other words heve sides with the serpent and
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[paul_moser]: distrusting god abraham starts the renewal by
saying god even though i have no idea
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[paul_moser]: how you're going to work this out
in fact it's laughable i'm still going to
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[paul_moser]: trust you and so that notion of
righteousness participating in god's character becomes the very
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[paul_moser]: heart of what the biblical goal is
and when you get to matthew's gospel representing
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[paul_moser]: jesus righteousness is all over it seek
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[pj_wehry]: right
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[paul_moser]: first the kingdom and its righteousness
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[pj_wehry]: ah
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[paul_moser]: unless your righteousness exceeds that of the
pharisees forget about it and so again and
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[paul_moser]: paul is just all over this in
the romans right the whole thing is about
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[paul_moser]: righteousness and how you get it and
how you don't and so what i'm claiming
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[paul_moser]: is that's at the heart of report
because it's in that righteousness that you have
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[paul_moser]: what's called life with god that's where
life
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: with god is an edition and here's
what a lot of people miss that's also
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[paul_moser]: aware evidence for god's reality and goodness
is in that righteousness and so the question
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[paul_moser]: is well where do you find that
that's a nice talk sounds kind of uplifting
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[paul_moser]: and all that it's just so much
talk and i want to say wait a
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[paul_moser]: minute it's not if we reflect properly
we find something called the battle ground of
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[paul_moser]: the conscience that's what i call it
in the guidance book that were god is
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[paul_moser]: that work um most clearly in humans
and trying to work as they frustrate them
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[paul_moser]: as they suppress the truth is in
what we call conscience and of course
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: it's the the thing we suppress we
suppress it constantly we try to push it
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[paul_moser]: away we're too busy for it i
claim that that's where the most salient evidence
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[paul_moser]: of god is to be found outside
jesus outside
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: the life of jesus and paul confirms
this in romans five where he says hoping
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[paul_moser]: and believing in god they don't disappoint
us they don't leave us ashamed or embarrassed
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[paul_moser]: because god's a copy has been poured
out into our hearts through the holy spirit
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[paul_moser]: where heart for paul includes conscience that's
what paul is trying to point to here
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[paul_moser]: that within us and paul can even
say in romans nine that what i'm testifying
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[paul_moser]: to is confirmed
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: in conscience by the spirit of god
and so paul thinks of this thing that
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[paul_moser]: we call the conscience as loaded with
god's activity nudge us toward becoming the children
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[paul_moser]: of god and entering into what he
calls the glory of the freedom of the
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[paul_moser]: children
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: of god
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[pj_wehry]: which can only come through that liberation
of conscience
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[paul_moser]: that's right that
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[pj_wehry]: right
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[paul_moser]: god remakes the conscience by coming to
it but here's the hitch he doesn't make
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[paul_moser]: us manipulated pawns we have to co
operate now here's where a lot of people
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[paul_moser]: have been frightened in the past we
co operate are you bringing in to work
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[paul_moser]: are you staying
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: in and then that it's by works
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[pj_wehry]: oh ah
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[paul_moser]: this is just the biggest distortion you
can find in theology that's somehow obedience is
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[paul_moser]: a work in paul's technical sense romans
four
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: paul tells us what this technical sense
of work is and it's an earning it's
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[paul_moser]: something that would make god indebted or
obligated to
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: redeem us but obedience doesn't do that
obedience is a response to the good that
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[paul_moser]: god has brought into our lives has
nothing to do with earning people have collapsed
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[paul_moser]: the notion of anything active anything even
suggesting obedience with a work and they've said
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[paul_moser]: that can't fit with grace that's a
huge distortion
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: of divine grace just huge and it
had such a damper understanding what the good
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[paul_moser]: news is and how to receive it
so i'm trying to revitalize the biblical notion
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[paul_moser]: of responding in obedience to god's will
in the way that jesus did he talks
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[paul_moser]: explicitly about entering the kingdom only by
doing the will of father and that's obedience
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[paul_moser]: and it's at the heart of what
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: trusting god is
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[pj_wehry]: um m and forgive me i like
the mental kind of concrete examples and so
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[pj_wehry]: what i think you're talking about here
is there's
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: that
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: obvious idea of someone gives you a
task to do and you do it and
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[pj_wehry]: you get paid right that's what we
think of as a job and then think
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[pj_wehry]: right now my parents are out of
town on vacation we live in a multigenerational
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[pj_wehry]: house and my dad is paying the
boys to watch the dogs um they are
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[pj_wehry]: somewhat response for the dogs they are
five and seven not very responsible to be
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[pj_wehry]: quite frank we're the ones who are
taking care of the dogs right
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[paul_moser]: but
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[pj_wehry]: but
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[paul_moser]: not getting the money
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[pj_wehry]: right right exactly like
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[paul_moser]: uh
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[pj_wehry]: how does anyways
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[paul_moser]: uh m
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00:14:54,364 --> 00:14:54,644
[pj_wehry]: but
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[paul_moser]: h
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[pj_wehry]: if you ask my son did he
work for that even though he's not really
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[pj_wehry]: capable he would say he worked for
it but even that i think is different
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00:15:05,062 --> 00:15:09,670
[pj_wehry]: from this idea of life some of
h let's say you're short on rent and
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[pj_wehry]: a family member like drives up to
your house and says hey i have the
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[pj_wehry]: money can you come out and get
it now for whatever reason and you come
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[pj_wehry]: out and you get the money and
then someone's like well did you work for
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00:15:21,843 --> 00:15:26,230
[pj_wehry]: that and you're like well i did
walk outside and i took the money so
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[paul_moser]: yes
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00:15:26,591 --> 00:15:29,074
[pj_wehry]: yes i worked for it and that's
that
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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00:15:29,675 --> 00:15:34,040
[pj_wehry]: it seems to really destroy the whole
sense of work there is that
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[paul_moser]: it does
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00:15:34,521 --> 00:15:36,123
[pj_wehry]: is that a good example what we're
talking about
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00:15:36,410 --> 00:15:39,134
[paul_moser]: it is it is so it's your
birthday to day suppose
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: and you open your door and
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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00:15:41,719 --> 00:15:45,605
[paul_moser]: there's this massive gift sitting there right
at the front
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: door and
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
228
00:15:47,108 --> 00:15:50,312
[paul_moser]: you say wait i'm not gonna because
if i do it's not a gift it's
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[paul_moser]: something
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: that i've earned wait a minute receiving
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: a gift can include
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[pj_wehry]: s
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00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,965
[paul_moser]: shall we say responding to it appropriately
and so
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[pj_wehry]: yes
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00:16:01,045 --> 00:16:04,591
[paul_moser]: when god intervenes in a human life
say through conscience
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: with you know leading me
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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00:16:06,293 --> 00:16:12,544
[paul_moser]: away from being too harsh to a
sibling or rude to a neighbor or whatever
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00:16:12,804 --> 00:16:17,753
[paul_moser]: when god leads me away from that
in conscious and i respond with deeper
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[pj_wehry]: ah
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00:16:17,913 --> 00:16:23,081
[paul_moser]: obedience that's not intended to earn anything
it's intended
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00:16:22,475 --> 00:16:22,515
[pj_wehry]: i
246
00:16:23,442 --> 00:16:29,632
[paul_moser]: to co operate with god in the
goodness given as a gift given as grace
247
00:16:30,253 --> 00:16:38,467
[paul_moser]: there's no um meriting or there's no
conflict with grace there but it is astonishing
248
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[pj_wehry]: m
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00:16:39,068 --> 00:16:49,646
[paul_moser]: how many theologians including new testament theologians
stay away from that important idea of voluntary
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00:16:50,531 --> 00:16:58,451
[paul_moser]: reception of a gift co operating with
god for fear that they might somehow curb
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00:16:58,631 --> 00:17:04,276
[paul_moser]: or put a crimp on grace it's
just a conceptual confusion that i think has
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00:17:04,416 --> 00:17:07,619
[paul_moser]: hindered large parts of the christian church
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00:17:09,584 --> 00:17:12,324
[pj_wehry]: understandably um
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00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:15,317
[paul_moser]: and then notice what falls out of
this if this has a role in faith
255
00:17:15,678 --> 00:17:20,726
[paul_moser]: this kind of co operation obedience then
jesus and paul fit together perfectly people have
256
00:17:20,786 --> 00:17:24,933
[paul_moser]: often wondered well what's with jesus all
on about obedience
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00:17:24,894 --> 00:17:25,764
[pj_wehry]: yeah
258
00:17:25,053 --> 00:17:30,642
[paul_moser]: obeying doing but paul he's all on
about faith for this that they fit perfectly
259
00:17:30,743 --> 00:17:35,751
[paul_moser]: because there is something called the obedience
of faith where paul
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00:17:35,823 --> 00:17:35,844
[pj_wehry]: m
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00:17:35,851 --> 00:17:40,739
[paul_moser]: uses that in romans twice the idea
is that there's an inherent part of faith
262
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:46,389
[paul_moser]: that is co operative with god it
says yes and so paul can even talk
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00:17:46,489 --> 00:17:53,216
[paul_moser]: about obeying the gospel in thessalonians it's
something to be obeyed so when jesus says
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00:17:53,697 --> 00:17:58,485
[paul_moser]: repent and believe in the good news
in mark to start as ministry there's a
265
00:17:58,605 --> 00:18:04,378
[paul_moser]: call to obedience right there but it's
all so a call to faith as trust
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00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:11,370
[paul_moser]: trust in god that this is good
news and so what we're getting then in
267
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:18,101
[paul_moser]: jesus is a kind of re invigorating
of the promise to abraham where it's through
268
00:18:18,141 --> 00:18:23,366
[paul_moser]: this kind of trust that god wants
to bless all nations all families
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00:18:23,253 --> 00:18:30,934
[pj_wehry]: m absolutely and you've talked little bit
about this god's that god's righteousness specifically in
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00:18:31,014 --> 00:18:39,887
[pj_wehry]: this guidance to our conscience is evidence
what what are the tinuityes discontinuities between your
271
00:18:40,027 --> 00:18:45,333
[pj_wehry]: argument here and kind of the historical
moral argument for god's existence
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00:18:46,030 --> 00:18:51,159
[paul_moser]: yeah the historical moral argument is an
argument and see i'm trying to get away
273
00:18:51,219 --> 00:18:55,045
[paul_moser]: from this idea that the way we
come to god is by saying
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[pj_wehry]: ye
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00:18:55,426 --> 00:19:02,277
[paul_moser]: okay premise one premise two premise three
therefore conclusion i'm saying that's the wrong way
276
00:19:02,338 --> 00:19:07,366
[paul_moser]: to look at it instead what happens
is what i would call an inter personal
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00:19:07,626 --> 00:19:15,259
[paul_moser]: meeting and inter person acquaintance and that
happens deep within conscience whenever we take conscience
278
00:19:15,379 --> 00:19:22,630
[paul_moser]: seriously that's not an argument it's one
agent meeting another where god's nudged in god's
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00:19:22,790 --> 00:19:26,097
[paul_moser]: prodding god's gentle pressure sometimes not
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00:19:26,046 --> 00:19:26,086
[pj_wehry]: m
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00:19:26,157 --> 00:19:27,098
[paul_moser]: quite so gentle but
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00:19:27,294 --> 00:19:27,775
[pj_wehry]: oh
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00:19:27,991 --> 00:19:33,631
[paul_moser]: it's not coercive not coerce can keep
you up all night but it's it's a
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00:19:33,771 --> 00:19:41,435
[paul_moser]: place where one will meets another will
and that's more basic than any argument inter
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00:19:41,515 --> 00:19:47,705
[paul_moser]: personal acquaintance is what you might invoke
to support a premise but it's not a
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00:19:47,785 --> 00:19:54,536
[paul_moser]: premise it's not an intellectual formation of
a statement and so the traditional arguments kind
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00:19:54,597 --> 00:19:59,044
[paul_moser]: of keep god at arm's length i
say here's my first premise here's my second
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00:19:59,104 --> 00:20:03,971
[paul_moser]: premise now i'm going to draw our
conclusion wait a minute people aren't being acquainted
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00:20:04,031 --> 00:20:09,080
[paul_moser]: with god when they're reflecting on the
premises of an argument they're thinking about statements
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00:20:09,581 --> 00:20:15,051
[paul_moser]: and how an inference from the premises
leads to the conclusion well where's god god
291
00:20:15,111 --> 00:20:20,663
[paul_moser]: isn't an argument god isn't an inference
i'm trying to put the focus where i
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00:20:20,723 --> 00:20:25,211
[paul_moser]: think the apostle paul put it where
i think jesus put it before him and
293
00:20:25,311 --> 00:20:30,820
[paul_moser]: where i think many of the prophets
put it to isaiah jeremiah zekiel they and
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00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:39,808
[paul_moser]: direct acquaintance with god of the kind
akin to moses when when moses says in
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00:20:39,908 --> 00:20:45,762
[paul_moser]: excess god show me your glory and
god says okay i'll give you a run
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00:20:45,862 --> 00:20:51,378
[paul_moser]: at it and then what happens god
shows god's goodness
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00:20:52,306 --> 00:20:52,326
[pj_wehry]: m
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00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:59,041
[paul_moser]: moses it's a remarkable passage moses wants
the glory and then god says my goodness
299
00:20:59,762 --> 00:21:06,093
[paul_moser]: will pass by which is a profound
statement to identify the power and glory of
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00:21:06,153 --> 00:21:13,976
[paul_moser]: god with the moral goodness of god
that's utterly profound especially given a lot of
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00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:18,824
[paul_moser]: theology in ancient times well and that's
what john's gospel is trying to do to
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00:21:19,385 --> 00:21:25,209
[paul_moser]: take the glory of god and put
it in self sacrificing jesus you want to
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00:21:25,229 --> 00:21:31,868
[paul_moser]: see the glory look at him on
the cross and it should we say shifts
304
00:21:32,530 --> 00:21:38,953
[paul_moser]: the terms of what it is to
be divine glory and so no argument needed
305
00:21:39,033 --> 00:21:39,234
[paul_moser]: here
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00:21:39,654 --> 00:21:40,404
[pj_wehry]: yeah
307
00:21:39,754 --> 00:21:44,763
[paul_moser]: even a child could have that kind
of acquaintance with god and say you want
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00:21:44,803 --> 00:21:48,789
[paul_moser]: an argument from me sorry i can't
give it but that doesn't harm my evidence
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00:21:49,511 --> 00:21:56,202
[paul_moser]: my evidence is this inter personal acquaintance
that is on going in a life and
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00:21:56,222 --> 00:21:57,845
[paul_moser]: that's where the assurance comes
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00:21:58,374 --> 00:21:59,034
[pj_wehry]: oh
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00:21:58,546 --> 00:22:08,216
[paul_moser]: by god continuing to display god's goodness
if if we're attentive to it but we
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00:22:08,336 --> 00:22:13,064
[paul_moser]: do have a role to play here
we are not mere pawns in some kind
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00:22:13,104 --> 00:22:16,530
[paul_moser]: of chess game and we see that
by the way even in the like a
315
00:22:16,610 --> 00:22:21,860
[paul_moser]: job where god sends up sets up
a test believe it or not god is
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00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,365
[paul_moser]: the one who got job into all
that trouble
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00:22:25,104 --> 00:22:25,427
[pj_wehry]: oh
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00:22:25,227 --> 00:22:27,053
[paul_moser]: god says hey ah
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00:22:27,103 --> 00:22:28,225
[pj_wehry]: ah yeah
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00:22:28,681 --> 00:22:37,325
[paul_moser]: he deceiver he my adversary check out
my follower job here and see what he's
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00:22:37,425 --> 00:22:40,349
[paul_moser]: worth and you want to say don't
do that god
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00:22:40,824 --> 00:22:41,045
[pj_wehry]: yeah
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00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:42,105
[paul_moser]: this is going to destroy
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00:22:43,139 --> 00:22:43,300
[pj_wehry]: yeah
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00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:47,564
[paul_moser]: and you know you don't want god
to say that about you just the adversary
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00:22:47,945 --> 00:22:58,005
[paul_moser]: check out this so job takes upon
himself this reflection on well things have gone
327
00:22:58,045 --> 00:23:02,031
[paul_moser]: from bad to worse what's wrong with
my life and all of his friends have
328
00:23:02,172 --> 00:23:07,463
[paul_moser]: answers you know the answers philosophers would
give god eventually shows up says you know
329
00:23:07,543 --> 00:23:13,088
[paul_moser]: shut up guys you know what you're
talking about and job job meets god
330
00:23:13,794 --> 00:23:13,814
[pj_wehry]: m
331
00:23:14,312 --> 00:23:19,794
[paul_moser]: and says you know i've now seen
god i've now had an acquaintance with god
332
00:23:19,834 --> 00:23:21,016
[paul_moser]: he doesn't mean visual seeing
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00:23:21,744 --> 00:23:21,764
[pj_wehry]: m
334
00:23:22,117 --> 00:23:27,977
[paul_moser]: and then he can say now i
can trust him even if even if i
335
00:23:28,118 --> 00:23:36,343
[paul_moser]: end up daustrayed in this that's where
the biblical evidence for god wants to take
336
00:23:36,403 --> 00:23:43,607
[paul_moser]: us not to this do i have
another refinement on this argument it's where do
337
00:23:43,688 --> 00:23:48,776
[paul_moser]: i now stand face to face with
god if we don't take people there they
338
00:23:48,856 --> 00:23:53,604
[paul_moser]: won't get the message and that's why
jesus is so enigmatic i mean he doesn't
339
00:23:53,664 --> 00:24:00,532
[paul_moser]: come on the scene and just give
you the standard think about this he's evasive
340
00:24:00,572 --> 00:24:07,860
[paul_moser]: he's elusive he's trying to get the
conscience of his audience where they will be
341
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:16,137
[paul_moser]: struck by wait a minute maybe god
is my father maybe god is and now
342
00:24:16,257 --> 00:24:21,486
[paul_moser]: what i think that's what jesus wanted
to do and it's awfully hard to do
343
00:24:22,387 --> 00:24:26,478
[paul_moser]: and look where it got him yeah
it may get you killed
344
00:24:27,174 --> 00:24:27,436
[pj_wehry]: yeah
345
00:24:27,261 --> 00:24:33,149
[paul_moser]: um but the point is he says
that this is the way you pursue his
346
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:39,629
[paul_moser]: father and i think that's what the
sermon on the mount is really about how
347
00:24:39,770 --> 00:24:46,573
[paul_moser]: is it that you position yourself respond
to god and jesus seemed to call it
348
00:24:46,673 --> 00:24:53,005
[paul_moser]: purity of heart and by that he
meant sharing in god's goodness because as he
349
00:24:53,105 --> 00:24:54,829
[paul_moser]: said only god is good
350
00:24:56,384 --> 00:25:03,196
[pj_wehry]: yeah um thank you and just a
really beautiful summation of what we've been talking
351
00:25:03,216 --> 00:25:09,466
[pj_wehry]: about so far it definitely seems like
i think the attraction of the moral argument
352
00:25:10,468 --> 00:25:15,777
[pj_wehry]: which is also its danger is that
it puts us in control which is very
353
00:25:15,857 --> 00:25:25,697
[pj_wehry]: much uh antithetical to what we started
with talking about god wants to exhibit good
354
00:25:25,977 --> 00:25:32,668
[pj_wehry]: lordship which you define is leadership and
un coerced guidance if you don't mind i
355
00:25:32,748 --> 00:25:36,496
[pj_wehry]: did want to ask where do you
you've talked a little about seeing that in
356
00:25:36,576 --> 00:25:41,264
[pj_wehry]: palms and paul but can you talked
a little bit because i feel like especially
357
00:25:41,304 --> 00:25:46,613
[pj_wehry]: in philosophy definitions are really important and
the idea of leadership as uncoerced guidance dey
358
00:25:46,653 --> 00:25:49,638
[pj_wehry]: definitely seems controversial so can you argue
359
00:25:49,572 --> 00:25:49,734
[paul_moser]: ship
360
00:25:49,678 --> 00:25:52,183
[pj_wehry]: for that a little bit or at
least discuss that a little bit
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00:25:53,180 --> 00:26:00,773
[paul_moser]: yeah there i have in mind just
the continuing theme throughout the hebrew bible that
362
00:26:02,536 --> 00:26:07,371
[paul_moser]: god is the one who leads in
paths of righteousness palm
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00:26:07,224 --> 00:26:07,244
[pj_wehry]: m
364
00:26:07,472 --> 00:26:11,243
[paul_moser]: twenty three one of the most remarkable
365
00:26:11,364 --> 00:26:11,384
[pj_wehry]: m
366
00:26:11,764 --> 00:26:12,745
[paul_moser]: pieces of literature
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00:26:12,585 --> 00:26:12,606
[pj_wehry]: m
368
00:26:12,925 --> 00:26:13,667
[paul_moser]: ever produced
369
00:26:13,233 --> 00:26:14,005
[pj_wehry]: m oh
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00:26:14,328 --> 00:26:15,770
[paul_moser]: and the profundity
371
00:26:15,129 --> 00:26:15,611
[pj_wehry]: oh no
372
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:22,722
[paul_moser]: of it comes in that shift from
the third person to the second person so
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00:26:22,822 --> 00:26:29,693
[paul_moser]: god is the one who makes me
lie down in green pastures who leads me
374
00:26:29,774 --> 00:26:35,764
[paul_moser]: beside the still waters who stores my
soul mean paths of righteousness but then what
375
00:26:35,824 --> 00:26:42,054
[paul_moser]: happens then what happens well then even
if i walk through the valley
376
00:26:41,973 --> 00:26:41,994
[pj_wehry]: m
377
00:26:42,134 --> 00:26:48,785
[paul_moser]: the shadow of death i will fear
no evil i because thou art with
378
00:26:48,714 --> 00:26:49,524
[pj_wehry]: yeah
379
00:26:48,905 --> 00:26:54,555
[paul_moser]: me notice that shift to the second
person something profound is happening there and that's
380
00:26:54,735 --> 00:27:01,750
[paul_moser]: where the desired guidance comes from not
from okay give me the information book give
381
00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:09,984
[paul_moser]: me the instruction book and i'll be
okay god no it's second person thou art
382
00:27:10,104 --> 00:27:15,337
[paul_moser]: with me and the psalmist goes on
to talk about god in the second person
383
00:27:16,338 --> 00:27:23,753
[paul_moser]: until the end that is a profound
shift that shows just the depth of that
384
00:27:23,894 --> 00:27:30,632
[paul_moser]: palmist and you get the same thing
um m in jesus in the in the
385
00:27:30,712 --> 00:27:37,130
[paul_moser]: lord's prayer right where you get thy
kingdom come thy
386
00:27:37,069 --> 00:27:37,089
[pj_wehry]: m
387
00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:44,460
[paul_moser]: will be done and guess where that
comes from gessemini because it's in guessemini where
388
00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:49,505
[paul_moser]: jesus says i really need to plan
be here father this is not looking good
389
00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:59,195
[paul_moser]: at all and then shifts to butt
but your will be done not mine and
390
00:27:59,256 --> 00:28:07,889
[paul_moser]: so the kind of guidance i'm talking
about here he is second person toward god
391
00:28:08,693 --> 00:28:14,727
[paul_moser]: and god speaking to us in the
second person and the key with that kind
392
00:28:14,807 --> 00:28:24,460
[paul_moser]: of guidance is it's inherently rejectable indeed
even jesus considered saying you know this cross
393
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:31,769
[paul_moser]: idea looked good and i've predicted it
three times in the gospel of mark but
394
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,825
[paul_moser]: know now that i'm on top of
this i don't really like this
395
00:28:36,445 --> 00:28:36,587
[pj_wehry]: yeah
396
00:28:36,526 --> 00:28:37,829
[paul_moser]: you know jerusalem is
397
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:37,997
[pj_wehry]: yeah
398
00:28:37,929 --> 00:28:42,256
[paul_moser]: not looking good at all while his
disciples had fallen asleep
399
00:28:42,234 --> 00:28:42,475
[pj_wehry]: yeah
400
00:28:42,777 --> 00:28:44,099
[paul_moser]: luke says he had been sweating
401
00:28:43,883 --> 00:28:44,004
[pj_wehry]: yeah
402
00:28:44,199 --> 00:28:44,379
[paul_moser]: blood
403
00:28:44,698 --> 00:28:44,799
[pj_wehry]: oh
404
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:53,348
[paul_moser]: over this he was so frightened of
what was coming but he resorts to this
405
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:56,880
[paul_moser]: i won't reject this i won't
406
00:28:56,655 --> 00:28:56,716
[pj_wehry]: m
407
00:28:57,101 --> 00:28:57,582
[paul_moser]: i will
408
00:28:57,483 --> 00:28:57,504
[pj_wehry]: m
409
00:28:57,782 --> 00:29:05,654
[paul_moser]: say your will first and so if
you take that away that rejectable challenge from
410
00:29:05,734 --> 00:29:06,095
[paul_moser]: god
411
00:29:06,303 --> 00:29:06,324
[pj_wehry]: m
412
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:10,522
[paul_moser]: we become mere manipulated pawns and that
is not
413
00:29:10,374 --> 00:29:11,184
[pj_wehry]: yeah
414
00:29:11,123 --> 00:29:13,287
[paul_moser]: what we are portrayed to be by
415
00:29:13,194 --> 00:29:14,154
[pj_wehry]: oh
416
00:29:13,447 --> 00:29:19,757
[paul_moser]: all the biblical injunctions consider all the
commands fear not don't do this we are
417
00:29:19,918 --> 00:29:28,091
[paul_moser]: not treated as manipulated pawns we are
held accountable for how we respond abraham is
418
00:29:28,212 --> 00:29:33,909
[paul_moser]: praised for his response paul says in
romans for he didn't cringing
419
00:29:34,533 --> 00:29:34,554
[pj_wehry]: m
420
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:44,611
[paul_moser]: disobedience but with resolve trusted god's promise
jesus praisus people for receiving his word in
421
00:29:44,671 --> 00:29:50,543
[paul_moser]: the parable the sower uh in mark's
gospel to begin with in luke's gospel it's
422
00:29:50,603 --> 00:29:57,195
[paul_moser]: explicit about the good heart of a
person responding to the word m paul talks
423
00:29:57,295 --> 00:30:03,586
[paul_moser]: about it in romans where god meets
resistance but holds out his hands to a
424
00:30:03,666 --> 00:30:05,469
[paul_moser]: disobedient and stubborn
425
00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:05,276
[pj_wehry]: m
426
00:30:05,589 --> 00:30:13,613
[paul_moser]: people god is seeking for people to
use their will to comply and that's what
427
00:30:14,655 --> 00:30:23,129
[paul_moser]: voluntary response is to this kind of
uncoerced un coerce guidance take that away and
428
00:30:23,169 --> 00:30:30,286
[paul_moser]: you've got um sham of a story
where there's coercion and none of it makes
429
00:30:30,366 --> 00:30:34,987
[paul_moser]: sense everything becomes just unintelligible
430
00:30:36,344 --> 00:30:40,453
[pj_wehry]: so even as i'm listening here and
i'm thinking about your distinction between what you're
431
00:30:40,494 --> 00:30:46,333
[pj_wehry]: doing here and the moral argument i
can't help be struck by kind of the
432
00:30:47,624 --> 00:30:53,013
[pj_wehry]: on going argument about what evil is
between for instance plato's definition that basically if
433
00:30:53,193 --> 00:30:57,039
[pj_wehry]: people know the good they will do
the good and then it's very
434
00:30:56,910 --> 00:30:57,192
[paul_moser]: uh
435
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,881
[pj_wehry]: clear in the bible
436
00:30:57,919 --> 00:30:57,960
[paul_moser]: uh
437
00:30:57,961 --> 00:31:01,707
[pj_wehry]: that like people the good and they
choose not to do it
438
00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:02,493
[paul_moser]: oh
439
00:31:02,308 --> 00:31:03,350
[pj_wehry]: anyways u
440
00:31:03,794 --> 00:31:03,958
[paul_moser]: yeah
441
00:31:03,811 --> 00:31:09,200
[pj_wehry]: and so in some ways that seems
as you're talking about becoming these ponds these
442
00:31:10,842 --> 00:31:12,144
[pj_wehry]: robots that
443
00:31:12,879 --> 00:31:12,900
[paul_moser]: m
444
00:31:12,905 --> 00:31:14,426
[pj_wehry]: the idea is well if we just
445
00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:14,970
[paul_moser]: yeah
446
00:31:14,526 --> 00:31:17,409
[pj_wehry]: knew to do good we would do
it and really that element of choice
447
00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:17,750
[paul_moser]: m
448
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:25,519
[pj_wehry]: is plays a central role here what
is you've talked quite a bit about will
449
00:31:25,619 --> 00:31:30,312
[pj_wehry]: and choice and the conscience what is
the relationship between those two things
450
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,166
[paul_moser]: yeah i think there's an intimate relationship
and by the way on the oars or
451
00:31:34,266 --> 00:31:38,132
[paul_moser]: weakness of will i don't think plato
held that all his life for one thing
452
00:31:38,172 --> 00:31:43,641
[paul_moser]: we know that aristotle refuted the view
aristotle roundly rig i i and in some
453
00:31:43,681 --> 00:31:47,768
[paul_moser]: of the later works it seems that
plato has moved away from what may have
454
00:31:47,788 --> 00:31:51,314
[paul_moser]: been a socratic view that that if
you know the good you'll do the good
455
00:31:52,376 --> 00:31:56,102
[paul_moser]: and as you know in roman seven
paul i just has none of that i
456
00:31:56,182 --> 00:31:56,322
[paul_moser]: mean
457
00:31:56,514 --> 00:31:56,897
[pj_wehry]: all right
458
00:31:56,743 --> 00:31:56,964
[paul_moser]: you know
459
00:31:57,018 --> 00:31:57,180
[pj_wehry]: right
460
00:31:57,044 --> 00:31:59,648
[paul_moser]: the good that i would do i
don't i mean paul
461
00:31:59,553 --> 00:31:59,574
[pj_wehry]: m
462
00:31:59,688 --> 00:32:04,035
[paul_moser]: is is clear that the knowledge can
be in place but the will need not
463
00:32:04,135 --> 00:32:10,386
[paul_moser]: be the interesting thing about cons and
is that i think it's as interactive as
464
00:32:10,827 --> 00:32:16,135
[paul_moser]: typical action so that i think that
you can be presented with something in conscience
465
00:32:16,296 --> 00:32:23,027
[paul_moser]: and choose to sup and paul talks
about suppressing or holding down the truth of
466
00:32:23,147 --> 00:32:28,236
[paul_moser]: god and romans and i think you
can do that in conscience you can you
467
00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:34,571
[paul_moser]: can take what is suggested to you
either ignore it or outright oppose it and
468
00:32:34,651 --> 00:32:40,841
[paul_moser]: paul then in his references to the
conscience and there are several clear ones is
469
00:32:41,021 --> 00:32:46,530
[paul_moser]: urging people to pay attention to their
conscience in a way that cool operates with
470
00:32:46,584 --> 00:32:47,334
[pj_wehry]: yeah
471
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:52,857
[paul_moser]: god's spirit because he says that god's
spirit can confirm things through conscience
472
00:32:52,413 --> 00:32:52,434
[pj_wehry]: m
473
00:32:53,578 --> 00:32:58,375
[paul_moser]: and so it's a place where we
are still agents yes
474
00:32:58,868 --> 00:32:58,889
[pj_wehry]: m
475
00:32:59,017 --> 00:33:08,642
[paul_moser]: we can be interrupted even at three
a m with conscience but we can respond
476
00:33:09,984 --> 00:33:15,353
[paul_moser]: as we see fit and a lot
of times you know i really would like
477
00:33:15,954 --> 00:33:20,021
[paul_moser]: to eat my vengeance cold and get
my
478
00:33:19,914 --> 00:33:20,195
[pj_wehry]: oh
479
00:33:20,862 --> 00:33:22,866
[paul_moser]: vengeance on somebody and
480
00:33:22,912 --> 00:33:23,133
[pj_wehry]: yeah
481
00:33:23,407 --> 00:33:29,337
[paul_moser]: and you know i can go against
god's will for that and i mean shame
482
00:33:29,417 --> 00:33:31,520
[paul_moser]: on me when i do but let's
ace the
483
00:33:31,404 --> 00:33:31,846
[pj_wehry]: yeah
484
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,864
[paul_moser]: fact that we are very good
485
00:33:33,714 --> 00:33:33,875
[pj_wehry]: yeah
486
00:33:34,365 --> 00:33:41,837
[paul_moser]: at telling stories to get around the
hard demands especially when they involve things like
487
00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:47,806
[paul_moser]: enemy love i love my enemy come
on let me get paid back first and
488
00:33:47,886 --> 00:33:55,910
[paul_moser]: then we'll talk about it so i'm
active even there and that's because god has
489
00:33:56,030 --> 00:34:00,598
[paul_moser]: given in prevenient grace human agency god
490
00:34:00,618 --> 00:34:00,639
[pj_wehry]: m
491
00:34:00,678 --> 00:34:07,690
[paul_moser]: wants report with agents in god's image
not machines not something that
492
00:34:07,704 --> 00:34:07,989
[pj_wehry]: yeah
493
00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:15,483
[paul_moser]: god is simply caused to come about
including in decisions that isn't an inter personal
494
00:34:15,583 --> 00:34:20,741
[paul_moser]: relation that would be just an extension
of god's own will and so there's none
495
00:34:20,781 --> 00:34:29,033
[paul_moser]: of that in jesus or in paul's
writing because they're loaded with injunctions to
496
00:34:29,094 --> 00:34:29,274
[pj_wehry]: yeah
497
00:34:29,153 --> 00:34:31,477
[paul_moser]: us to respond in a certain way
498
00:34:31,563 --> 00:34:31,683
[pj_wehry]: yeah
499
00:34:32,298 --> 00:34:38,419
[paul_moser]: and acknowledging that we can respond um
and so we have to take that utterly
500
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:44,208
[paul_moser]: seriously i think across the board not
just in ordinary action but even in responding
501
00:34:44,268 --> 00:34:44,869
[paul_moser]: to conscience
502
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:50,872
[pj_wehry]: and i hear you talking quite a
bit about encounter and you mentioned moover i
503
00:34:50,952 --> 00:34:54,839
[pj_wehry]: don't remember if you mentioned levins how
much do you take from them and how
504
00:34:54,879 --> 00:34:56,943
[pj_wehry]: much of their influence is present
505
00:34:57,512 --> 00:34:59,261
[paul_moser]: very little from aqulinus in fact
506
00:34:59,894 --> 00:35:01,760
[pj_wehry]: i'm sorry levins apologies
507
00:35:02,514 --> 00:35:02,876
[paul_moser]: levina
508
00:35:03,374 --> 00:35:04,136
[pj_wehry]: levin a sorry
509
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,562
[paul_moser]: levin levina
510
00:35:05,238 --> 00:35:06,200
[pj_wehry]: my pronunciayeah
511
00:35:05,803 --> 00:35:09,210
[paul_moser]: no no no no i don't that
that
512
00:35:09,144 --> 00:35:09,388
[pj_wehry]: oh
513
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:11,776
[paul_moser]: kind of language doesn't help me when
514
00:35:11,835 --> 00:35:11,917
[pj_wehry]: got
515
00:35:11,856 --> 00:35:12,097
[paul_moser]: people
516
00:35:11,979 --> 00:35:12,061
[pj_wehry]: you
517
00:35:12,177 --> 00:35:14,931
[paul_moser]: talk about other ing the other and
518
00:35:15,534 --> 00:35:17,064
[pj_wehry]: yeah
519
00:35:16,033 --> 00:35:17,935
[paul_moser]: i don't my view
520
00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:17,927
[pj_wehry]: ah
521
00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:23,284
[paul_moser]: is by design steeped in the biblical
narratives
522
00:35:23,759 --> 00:35:23,779
[pj_wehry]: m
523
00:35:24,367 --> 00:35:32,342
[paul_moser]: and i have a strong preference for
paul's understanding of jesus um even over that
524
00:35:32,402 --> 00:35:37,190
[paul_moser]: of hebrews because paul has a view
of self sacrifice the writer of he i
525
00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:43,661
[paul_moser]: thought that that had ended and i
think it's more complex than that but i
526
00:35:43,701 --> 00:35:49,029
[paul_moser]: think paul has the most profound understanding
of who jesus is in the new test
527
00:35:49,130 --> 00:35:54,325
[paul_moser]: i meant and so i get my
views largely through paul
528
00:35:55,074 --> 00:35:55,094
[pj_wehry]: m
529
00:35:55,187 --> 00:36:02,310
[paul_moser]: and i think he just sheds incredible
light on jesus as well as on the
530
00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:08,781
[paul_moser]: place of the hebrew bible the place
of the law i think even though he
531
00:36:08,821 --> 00:36:18,103
[paul_moser]: had never met jesus bodily understood him
with unmatched depth so yeah i don't i
532
00:36:18,144 --> 00:36:19,327
[paul_moser]: don't look to any
533
00:36:19,554 --> 00:36:20,394
[pj_wehry]: yeah
534
00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:26,480
[paul_moser]: contemporary philosophers in this regard although i
do have some favorites and most of my
535
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:33,472
[paul_moser]: favorites are philosophical theologians who are long
dead and they it's interesting many of them
536
00:36:33,532 --> 00:36:40,623
[paul_moser]: come out of scotland like p t
forsyth i love his work h r mackintosh
537
00:36:41,265 --> 00:36:49,638
[paul_moser]: i love his work and i think
they just john bailey has done really remarkable
538
00:36:49,699 --> 00:36:55,108
[paul_moser]: work on the relation of ethics to
god and some older were in the gens
539
00:36:55,168 --> 00:37:00,402
[paul_moser]: book on or no age of god
so my favorites would come out of that
540
00:37:00,543 --> 00:37:07,955
[paul_moser]: tradition the philosopher s i think i
don't think they understand the biblical narratives adequately
541
00:37:08,256 --> 00:37:09,217
[paul_moser]: i don't think aclinist
542
00:37:09,273 --> 00:37:09,294
[pj_wehry]: m
543
00:37:09,357 --> 00:37:16,010
[paul_moser]: did i don't think nos did even
boober i mean boober was obviously a scholar
544
00:37:16,050 --> 00:37:19,917
[paul_moser]: of the hebrew bible but i find
him
545
00:37:23,012 --> 00:37:29,691
[paul_moser]: almost too abstract and philosophical and i
don't think he takes the benefit jesus into
546
00:37:29,771 --> 00:37:37,531
[paul_moser]: his account i think hessel abraham heschell
moves a bit closer but i think until
547
00:37:37,591 --> 00:37:43,257
[paul_moser]: you until you look at jesus and
paul you are at a real disadvantage in
548
00:37:43,317 --> 00:37:45,179
[paul_moser]: putting the pieces of the puzzle together
549
00:37:47,184 --> 00:37:52,357
[pj_wehry]: yeah thank you that really that helps
a lot and there's definitely there's names that
550
00:37:52,417 --> 00:37:56,962
[pj_wehry]: i had heard but i've never read
so i will definitely look those up later
551
00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:03,007
[pj_wehry]: you mentioned earlier talking about loving your
enemy and that seems to be kind of
552
00:38:03,487 --> 00:38:08,812
[pj_wehry]: a key thread throughout your book why
is that the key thread in your argument
553
00:38:08,611 --> 00:38:08,755
[paul_moser]: yeah
554
00:38:08,872 --> 00:38:09,973
[pj_wehry]: about divine guidance
555
00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:15,498
[paul_moser]: yeah that's your right to perceive that
that's because that takes us to the heart
556
00:38:16,059 --> 00:38:18,483
[paul_moser]: of god's moral character and what does
it mean
557
00:38:18,933 --> 00:38:18,954
[pj_wehry]: m
558
00:38:19,044 --> 00:38:24,573
[paul_moser]: means that god's love is unearned i
mean if god can of god's enemies i
559
00:38:24,593 --> 00:38:30,984
[paul_moser]: mean you hardly say oh my enemy
here who hates me earns my love no
560
00:38:31,084 --> 00:38:38,536
[paul_moser]: on the contrary god's love is amazing
because it extends to god's enemies and paul
561
00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:44,105
[paul_moser]: endorses this two in romans twelve echoing
the sermon on the mount or i don't
562
00:38:44,125 --> 00:38:50,134
[paul_moser]: know echoing in the in a broad
sense be romans was written before matthew but
563
00:38:50,535 --> 00:38:59,593
[paul_moser]: paul knew about this through independent means
and what you have there is jesus ming
564
00:39:00,721 --> 00:39:00,842
[paul_moser]: to
565
00:39:00,753 --> 00:39:00,774
[pj_wehry]: m
566
00:39:01,404 --> 00:39:06,925
[paul_moser]: represent his father show us who god
is and to enact god's moral character through
567
00:39:06,965 --> 00:39:15,812
[paul_moser]: the cross and the resurrection and in
doing so in acting god's enemy love so
568
00:39:15,973 --> 00:39:16,393
[paul_moser]: paul can
569
00:39:16,298 --> 00:39:16,319
[pj_wehry]: m
570
00:39:16,513 --> 00:39:23,600
[paul_moser]: say in romans while we were still
enemies we were reconciled to god through jesus
571
00:39:24,281 --> 00:39:27,804
[paul_moser]: and so we don't usually think of
this but that's the fact of the matter
572
00:39:28,345 --> 00:39:35,312
[paul_moser]: when we respond to the good news
we are enemies of god responding to god's
573
00:39:35,453 --> 00:39:39,967
[paul_moser]: love so enemy love becomes the kind
of love
574
00:39:39,903 --> 00:39:39,924
[pj_wehry]: m
575
00:39:40,127 --> 00:39:44,576
[paul_moser]: unique to god i hate to be
offensive but you and i don't have that
576
00:39:44,676 --> 00:39:46,851
[paul_moser]: enemy love on our own i mean
577
00:39:46,794 --> 00:39:46,814
[pj_wehry]: m
578
00:39:46,891 --> 00:39:52,645
[paul_moser]: just check out how you've treated your
enemies throughout your life and if we're honest
579
00:39:52,705 --> 00:39:55,401
[paul_moser]: we're going to say now at best
580
00:39:56,244 --> 00:39:56,465
[pj_wehry]: yeah
581
00:39:56,423 --> 00:39:59,368
[paul_moser]: there second class citizens in my world
if
582
00:39:59,394 --> 00:39:59,676
[pj_wehry]: uh
583
00:39:59,408 --> 00:40:01,151
[paul_moser]: they're allowed to be citizens at all
584
00:40:01,733 --> 00:40:02,075
[pj_wehry]: yeah yeah
585
00:40:01,952 --> 00:40:05,678
[paul_moser]: um and you know i share that
so when i hear about you know what
586
00:40:05,799 --> 00:40:10,860
[paul_moser]: hitler did and our complicity in the
holy cost in the use
587
00:40:09,806 --> 00:40:09,846
[pj_wehry]: m
588
00:40:10,990 --> 00:40:16,906
[paul_moser]: it's just outrageous it's outrageous how we
treated the jews and we're supposed to offer
589
00:40:17,046 --> 00:40:18,871
[paul_moser]: forgiveness i mean
590
00:40:18,804 --> 00:40:18,824
[pj_wehry]: m
591
00:40:18,992 --> 00:40:21,613
[paul_moser]: come on that's just crazy
592
00:40:21,483 --> 00:40:21,504
[pj_wehry]: m
593
00:40:22,460 --> 00:40:26,246
[paul_moser]: and then people get all confused because
they say that means you don't challenge them
594
00:40:26,546 --> 00:40:32,356
[paul_moser]: that means you can don evil no
it doesn't an offer of forgiveness is not
595
00:40:33,258 --> 00:40:37,808
[paul_moser]: forgiveness received that would require repentance will
hitler
596
00:40:37,794 --> 00:40:38,544
[pj_wehry]: yeah
597
00:40:37,868 --> 00:40:40,695
[paul_moser]: repent i don't know don't ask me
598
00:40:40,884 --> 00:40:41,145
[pj_wehry]: yeah
599
00:40:41,136 --> 00:40:43,953
[paul_moser]: but the point is it looks as
if some people
600
00:40:43,818 --> 00:40:44,019
[pj_wehry]: yeah
601
00:40:44,113 --> 00:40:49,046
[paul_moser]: won't because jesus was willing to say
it had been better if that man had
602
00:40:49,106 --> 00:40:49,808
[paul_moser]: not been born
603
00:40:50,896 --> 00:40:50,937
[pj_wehry]: m
604
00:40:51,070 --> 00:40:58,152
[paul_moser]: so i aspire to universalism i hope
everybody's there at the party the evidence isn't
605
00:40:58,212 --> 00:40:59,875
[paul_moser]: too encouraging it
606
00:40:59,874 --> 00:41:01,164
[pj_wehry]: oh
607
00:40:59,975 --> 00:41:01,378
[paul_moser]: looks as if some people are going
to
608
00:41:01,404 --> 00:41:02,244
[pj_wehry]: yeah
609
00:41:01,438 --> 00:41:07,165
[paul_moser]: say sorry i don't need this and
i have a good friend who's very smart
610
00:41:08,626 --> 00:41:14,402
[paul_moser]: education is not his weakness he's his
luck if i find out i'm wrong at
611
00:41:14,442 --> 00:41:19,188
[paul_moser]: the end and that there really is
a god i'm just going to kill myself
612
00:41:19,528 --> 00:41:23,251
[paul_moser]: i don't need this i'm going to
check out and of course
613
00:41:23,073 --> 00:41:23,094
[pj_wehry]: m
614
00:41:23,552 --> 00:41:28,099
[paul_moser]: i said well really are you serious
you finally get to the end you see
615
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:29,041
[paul_moser]: there's this good guy who
616
00:41:29,094 --> 00:41:29,724
[pj_wehry]: yeah
617
00:41:29,141 --> 00:41:31,565
[paul_moser]: has your interest in my you're checking
out
618
00:41:31,863 --> 00:41:31,884
[pj_wehry]: m
619
00:41:32,006 --> 00:41:39,416
[paul_moser]: he says yeah because i really i
really don't want that kind of shall i
620
00:41:39,516 --> 00:41:43,083
[paul_moser]: say oversight on my life so i'm
gonna i'm going to kill
621
00:41:42,986 --> 00:41:43,026
[pj_wehry]: m
622
00:41:43,143 --> 00:41:49,713
[paul_moser]: myself now yeah is he wrong is
he he's not lying that's his intention i
623
00:41:49,753 --> 00:41:54,890
[paul_moser]: know that but is he going to
wake up at some point and say i
624
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:59,323
[paul_moser]: was a fool i don't know it
i don't know so
625
00:41:59,377 --> 00:41:59,398
[pj_wehry]: m
626
00:41:59,544 --> 00:42:06,096
[paul_moser]: i can't endorse universalism but i aspire
to it i think god does too
627
00:42:10,074 --> 00:42:10,154
[pj_wehry]: and
628
00:42:10,290 --> 00:42:10,950
[paul_moser]: my
629
00:42:10,495 --> 00:42:13,882
[pj_wehry]: i think one that leads into a
question i was just about to ask but
630
00:42:14,344 --> 00:42:21,086
[pj_wehry]: this goes back to that non coercive
character right that god could make these people
631
00:42:21,227 --> 00:42:24,711
[pj_wehry]: but that's not what he's looking for
he's looking for people to be in communion
632
00:42:24,771 --> 00:42:24,931
[pj_wehry]: with
633
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,061
[paul_moser]: and then what does these people
634
00:42:27,997 --> 00:42:28,178
[pj_wehry]: god
635
00:42:28,161 --> 00:42:30,304
[paul_moser]: mean then they are no longer these
people
636
00:42:30,115 --> 00:42:30,298
[pj_wehry]: right
637
00:42:30,764 --> 00:42:31,765
[paul_moser]: in other words they
638
00:42:31,758 --> 00:42:31,779
[pj_wehry]: m
639
00:42:31,785 --> 00:42:36,654
[paul_moser]: are no longer agents separate from god
they become hogs
640
00:42:36,365 --> 00:42:36,530
[pj_wehry]: right
641
00:42:36,755 --> 00:42:38,800
[paul_moser]: and god's gear and
642
00:42:38,939 --> 00:42:39,123
[pj_wehry]: right
643
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:47,067
[paul_moser]: they're just extensions of god's that's not
that's not report or fellowship that is manipulation
644
00:42:47,808 --> 00:42:51,683
[paul_moser]: and that depersonalizes and that is not
what's going on
645
00:42:51,594 --> 00:42:52,524
[pj_wehry]: oh
646
00:42:52,805 --> 00:42:59,277
[paul_moser]: if you read the new testament or
even the hebrew bible typically that is not
647
00:42:59,357 --> 00:43:04,764
[paul_moser]: the story i mean what's this stuff
about god holding out his hands all day
648
00:43:04,884 --> 00:43:09,288
[paul_moser]: long to a disobedient people paul is
siting isaiah there in romans
649
00:43:09,690 --> 00:43:10,224
[pj_wehry]: hm
650
00:43:09,789 --> 00:43:15,187
[paul_moser]: and what's that about i mean is
that just a farce got playing games here
651
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:23,716
[paul_moser]: no paul meant that you know the
opponents of jesus got into trouble because of
652
00:43:23,756 --> 00:43:29,292
[paul_moser]: their unbelief paul says not because god
forced them romans nine is not about
653
00:43:29,133 --> 00:43:29,154
[pj_wehry]: m
654
00:43:29,393 --> 00:43:35,406
[paul_moser]: god forcing people not to believe in
god that's just unbelievable if you read romans
655
00:43:35,487 --> 00:43:42,798
[paul_moser]: ten and eleven god is seeking to
bring in the gentiles and as a result
656
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,714
[paul_moser]: the jewish people who have a problem
with jesus it's
657
00:43:47,733 --> 00:43:47,754
[pj_wehry]: m
658
00:43:47,774 --> 00:43:52,348
[paul_moser]: oppressed toward widening the tent not narrowing
it
659
00:43:54,947 --> 00:44:00,421
[pj_wehry]: and that i think as you talk
about these you know your friend who is
660
00:44:02,444 --> 00:44:07,292
[pj_wehry]: would rather kill himself than be under
any oversight or you talk about hitler you
661
00:44:07,372 --> 00:44:10,317
[pj_wehry]: mentioned at the end many theologians
662
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:09,882
[paul_moser]: yeah
663
00:44:10,618 --> 00:44:15,767
[pj_wehry]: ignore the prominent theme of divine jealousy
in their acc of divine love and i
664
00:44:15,847 --> 00:44:21,174
[pj_wehry]: think can you speak to that a
little bit as we we talk about people
665
00:44:21,274 --> 00:44:27,770
[pj_wehry]: who as we talk about the lack
of coercion right but then there's you have
666
00:44:27,830 --> 00:44:29,052
[pj_wehry]: to deal with people who choose
667
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,120
[paul_moser]: yeah
668
00:44:29,212 --> 00:44:29,332
[pj_wehry]: no
669
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:36,159
[paul_moser]: that's right and that's a taboo topic
to try to find somebody who deals forth
670
00:44:36,259 --> 00:44:38,523
[paul_moser]: rightly with divine jealousy i think i
cite
671
00:44:38,514 --> 00:44:39,384
[pj_wehry]: oh
672
00:44:38,623 --> 00:44:39,745
[paul_moser]: four or five books where
673
00:44:39,594 --> 00:44:40,464
[pj_wehry]: yeah
674
00:44:40,326 --> 00:44:45,912
[paul_moser]: you know these big toms on gape
not a peep on divine jealousy where's the
675
00:44:45,972 --> 00:44:49,095
[paul_moser]: old testament my name is jealous his
name is
676
00:44:48,984 --> 00:44:49,004
[pj_wehry]: m
677
00:44:49,255 --> 00:44:56,925
[paul_moser]: jealous i mean what's going on there
and it's pretty clear that if you look
678
00:44:57,085 --> 00:45:06,684
[paul_moser]: at the the biblical discussion god is
not jealous against me god is jealous for
679
00:45:06,844 --> 00:45:07,846
[paul_moser]: me for
680
00:45:07,854 --> 00:45:07,874
[pj_wehry]: m
681
00:45:08,006 --> 00:45:15,298
[paul_moser]: righteousness on my behalf and this is
so very important because it explains why god
682
00:45:15,684 --> 00:45:15,967
[pj_wehry]: yeah
683
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:22,710
[paul_moser]: not only allows havoc to be wrought
in this world but god himself wreaks havoc
684
00:45:23,512 --> 00:45:30,884
[paul_moser]: in many contexts isaiah says god creates
the est the hebrew word is sometimes translated
685
00:45:30,984 --> 00:45:37,295
[paul_moser]: evil it's not to be translated evil
in isaiah there is god's creating a kind
686
00:45:37,576 --> 00:45:40,321
[paul_moser]: of mess in the world
687
00:45:40,563 --> 00:45:40,584
[pj_wehry]: m
688
00:45:40,661 --> 00:45:43,887
[paul_moser]: to shake things up and so i
have this view of god
689
00:45:43,734 --> 00:45:44,544
[pj_wehry]: yeah
690
00:45:44,568 --> 00:45:50,538
[paul_moser]: as an agitator for righteousness god agitates
and i
691
00:45:50,529 --> 00:45:51,024
[pj_wehry]: hm
692
00:45:50,558 --> 00:45:55,587
[paul_moser]: think we've lost this dea of an
active god who wreaks havoc in the world
693
00:45:56,108 --> 00:46:00,878
[paul_moser]: to shake things up for righteousness and
so i ask where should we look for
694
00:46:00,918 --> 00:46:04,172
[paul_moser]: this reeking of havoc and i'm saying
695
00:46:04,134 --> 00:46:04,734
[pj_wehry]: yeah
696
00:46:04,473 --> 00:46:09,959
[paul_moser]: pretty much wherever you see it because
god is active trying to bring good out
697
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:17,485
[paul_moser]: of suffering out of the bad that
results god is seeking redemption and sometimes it
698
00:46:17,545 --> 00:46:21,889
[paul_moser]: comes only by resurrection sometimes prior to
it but
699
00:46:21,936 --> 00:46:22,464
[pj_wehry]: hm
700
00:46:23,050 --> 00:46:32,440
[paul_moser]: this idea of jealousy god isn't just
good god is bent on covering everything with
701
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:38,628
[paul_moser]: god's goodness god wants to paint it
all with divine righteousness and then sorry to
702
00:46:38,708 --> 00:46:42,104
[paul_moser]: say he wants to do it through
us and this
703
00:46:42,054 --> 00:46:42,074
[pj_wehry]: m
704
00:46:42,144 --> 00:46:47,192
[paul_moser]: is where the rub comes because that
means you and i must become the righteousness
705
00:46:47,252 --> 00:46:55,320
[paul_moser]: of god paul says in christ we
become god's right well that's no picnic given
706
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:55,501
[paul_moser]: where
707
00:46:55,376 --> 00:46:55,396
[pj_wehry]: m
708
00:46:55,541 --> 00:47:03,016
[paul_moser]: we start from and so there's this
huge learning transforming curve where we have to
709
00:47:03,096 --> 00:47:10,911
[paul_moser]: be re made this is what regeneration
is about being re made paul would say
710
00:47:11,572 --> 00:47:17,623
[paul_moser]: in the image of christ who is
the perfect image of god well that means
711
00:47:17,703 --> 00:47:26,232
[paul_moser]: a life some travail and frustration and
so suffering becomes get this for paul something
712
00:47:26,492 --> 00:47:33,344
[paul_moser]: we rejoice in now that just sounds
stupid we rejoice in suffering and
713
00:47:33,376 --> 00:47:33,396
[pj_wehry]: m
714
00:47:33,424 --> 00:47:39,414
[paul_moser]: paul can step back and say yes
because god's at work bringing good out of
715
00:47:39,514 --> 00:47:41,998
[paul_moser]: it fast in your seat belts because
716
00:47:41,934 --> 00:47:42,534
[pj_wehry]: yeah
717
00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:49,651
[paul_moser]: there's going to be a bumpy road
or two on the way but this idea
718
00:47:49,751 --> 00:47:56,083
[paul_moser]: of jealousy for righteousness if that's not
front and center we will understand who god
719
00:47:56,223 --> 00:48:02,578
[paul_moser]: is and how this world might be
god's world if you don't have god working
720
00:48:03,551 --> 00:48:11,431
[paul_moser]: hard setting of free agents to paint
it all with righteousness it just doesn't make
721
00:48:11,471 --> 00:48:14,376
[paul_moser]: any sense it seems like a big
cam i mean
722
00:48:14,556 --> 00:48:14,576
[pj_wehry]: m
723
00:48:14,616 --> 00:48:19,006
[paul_moser]: why didn't god just flip the switch
ten thousand years ago and clean it up
724
00:48:19,830 --> 00:48:25,920
[paul_moser]: if god is you know bringing about
things just by god's because it's co operative
725
00:48:26,521 --> 00:48:27,843
[paul_moser]: that's the very design
726
00:48:27,423 --> 00:48:27,444
[pj_wehry]: m
727
00:48:28,264 --> 00:48:32,331
[paul_moser]: why didn't god just wipe out adam
and eve but instead says you know you're
728
00:48:32,351 --> 00:48:37,471
[paul_moser]: gonna have to leave the garden i'm
going to protect the source of life you're
729
00:48:37,491 --> 00:48:41,521
[paul_moser]: going to have to learn some stuff
and so you can think of it as
730
00:48:41,601 --> 00:48:51,680
[paul_moser]: a massive uh institution for moral make
over where our co operation is vital take
731
00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:53,908
[paul_moser]: it out and nothing makes sense
732
00:49:00,344 --> 00:49:01,086
[pj_wehry]: sorry i'm just sitting
733
00:49:01,450 --> 00:49:02,051
[paul_moser]: so and so when
734
00:49:01,968 --> 00:49:02,249
[pj_wehry]: with that
735
00:49:02,151 --> 00:49:02,211
[paul_moser]: our
736
00:49:02,269 --> 00:49:02,369
[pj_wehry]: for
737
00:49:02,271 --> 00:49:02,412
[paul_moser]: big
738
00:49:02,409 --> 00:49:02,429
[pj_wehry]: a
739
00:49:02,492 --> 00:49:02,873
[paul_moser]: weakness
740
00:49:02,510 --> 00:49:02,830
[pj_wehry]: second
741
00:49:02,973 --> 00:49:03,334
[paul_moser]: becomes
742
00:49:03,492 --> 00:49:03,652
[pj_wehry]: yeah
743
00:49:03,835 --> 00:49:07,421
[paul_moser]: we don't value righteousness the way god
does
744
00:49:08,234 --> 00:49:08,376
[pj_wehry]: yeah
745
00:49:08,291 --> 00:49:13,135
[paul_moser]: we don't take it seriously the way
god now we're going to talk about love
746
00:49:14,057 --> 00:49:20,347
[paul_moser]: and it's a remarkable notice how jesus
doesn't talk about love really very much at
747
00:49:20,407 --> 00:49:23,780
[paul_moser]: all i mean he gives us a
love command and in mark's gospel here's the
748
00:49:23,821 --> 00:49:31,142
[paul_moser]: first command he was to jesus is
more bent on a kind of righteousness because
749
00:49:31,703 --> 00:49:38,435
[paul_moser]: god's righteousness includes love righteous love if
you take away that qualifyer you get into
750
00:49:38,495 --> 00:49:43,984
[paul_moser]: big trouble because god becomes a kind
of romantic cream puff people get all romantic
751
00:49:44,244 --> 00:49:50,560
[paul_moser]: and you say stop that that's not
what god is like god is holy god
752
00:49:50,620 --> 00:49:56,255
[paul_moser]: is righteous and out of that comes
and here's what a gap is good will
753
00:49:56,376 --> 00:50:00,557
[paul_moser]: for others that's what a gap is
but that good will
754
00:50:00,744 --> 00:50:01,010
[pj_wehry]: oh
755
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:03,728
[paul_moser]: comes out of god's righteous character
756
00:50:03,444 --> 00:50:04,494
[pj_wehry]: oh
757
00:50:04,410 --> 00:50:06,011
[paul_moser]: and well so we
758
00:50:05,934 --> 00:50:06,663
[pj_wehry]: yeah
759
00:50:06,071 --> 00:50:11,176
[paul_moser]: don't take jealousy seriously because we're kind
of half baked about righteous yea it would
760
00:50:11,216 --> 00:50:16,592
[paul_moser]: be nice if things were righteous but
you know so we not really we don't
761
00:50:16,672 --> 00:50:16,873
[paul_moser]: care
762
00:50:16,914 --> 00:50:17,694
[pj_wehry]: oh
763
00:50:17,674 --> 00:50:24,505
[paul_moser]: that wasn't the attitude of jesus he
was burning with righteousness and that's shown at
764
00:50:24,625 --> 00:50:31,757
[paul_moser]: his at the z for god's house
zeal the hebrew word for zealous is the
765
00:50:31,858 --> 00:50:37,607
[paul_moser]: same there in the in the original
use of it in the hebrew bible as
766
00:50:37,807 --> 00:50:41,677
[paul_moser]: jealous zealous and jealous they're the same
word and
767
00:50:42,274 --> 00:50:42,804
[pj_wehry]: hm
768
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:51,074
[paul_moser]: he shows that at the temple when
he kicks out the sales people overturns the
769
00:50:51,114 --> 00:50:57,479
[paul_moser]: table and they say zeal for your
house has consumed me so what jesus is
770
00:50:57,539 --> 00:51:05,394
[paul_moser]: doing is reflecting god's passionate righteousness i
don't think the church has that today i
771
00:51:05,434 --> 00:51:05,715
[paul_moser]: think it's
772
00:51:05,635 --> 00:51:05,655
[pj_wehry]: m
773
00:51:05,815 --> 00:51:07,397
[paul_moser]: lost i think it's
774
00:51:07,369 --> 00:51:07,409
[pj_wehry]: m
775
00:51:08,478 --> 00:51:19,133
[paul_moser]: i think it's water down water down
the conception of yale and yeas son jesus
776
00:51:19,433 --> 00:51:22,119
[paul_moser]: i think i think that's been the
big tragedy
777
00:51:24,046 --> 00:51:28,935
[pj_wehry]: and as i'm sitting here one of
the especially in our society one of the
778
00:51:28,975 --> 00:51:32,739
[pj_wehry]: first questions that comes to mind is
why can't god just leave me alone right
779
00:51:33,039 --> 00:51:34,020
[pj_wehry]: and the answer is
780
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:34,143
[paul_moser]: uh
781
00:51:34,140 --> 00:51:40,128
[pj_wehry]: is that it's better to live with
god and in this case with righteousness because
782
00:51:40,148 --> 00:51:41,691
[pj_wehry]: you can't live with god without righteousness
783
00:51:43,050 --> 00:51:43,070
[paul_moser]: m
784
00:51:43,184 --> 00:51:45,167
[pj_wehry]: the other answer of course is that
you're only
785
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:45,280
[paul_moser]: oh
786
00:51:45,247 --> 00:51:47,351
[pj_wehry]: sustained only created and sustained by
787
00:51:47,429 --> 00:51:47,550
[paul_moser]: yeah
788
00:51:47,451 --> 00:51:52,179
[pj_wehry]: god that's also part of it but
what what comes to mind even you're talking
789
00:51:52,199 --> 00:52:01,547
[pj_wehry]: about this that god is this agitator
righteousness is i we see people who are
790
00:52:01,647 --> 00:52:07,537
[pj_wehry]: not agitated for righteousness and those are
the people that christ actually tells us to
791
00:52:07,657 --> 00:52:12,826
[pj_wehry]: pity the rich man cannot be saved
well says it is harder for him to
792
00:52:12,846 --> 00:52:16,192
[pj_wehry]: be saved than a camel to go
through the eye of a needle because they
793
00:52:16,353 --> 00:52:20,841
[pj_wehry]: do not sense their lack and that
is what god is in his jealousy is
794
00:52:20,921 --> 00:52:21,662
[pj_wehry]: calling us to
795
00:52:24,591 --> 00:52:24,973
[paul_moser]: that's right
796
00:52:24,984 --> 00:52:25,044
[pj_wehry]: am
797
00:52:25,054 --> 00:52:25,114
[paul_moser]: in
798
00:52:25,124 --> 00:52:25,144
[pj_wehry]: i
799
00:52:25,174 --> 00:52:25,315
[paul_moser]: other
800
00:52:25,264 --> 00:52:25,525
[pj_wehry]: tracking
801
00:52:25,375 --> 00:52:25,577
[paul_moser]: words
802
00:52:25,545 --> 00:52:27,369
[pj_wehry]: with you there yeah i think sorry
i
803
00:52:27,350 --> 00:52:27,650
[paul_moser]: indeed
804
00:52:27,409 --> 00:52:27,890
[pj_wehry]: should have asked
805
00:52:27,811 --> 00:52:28,091
[paul_moser]: indeed
806
00:52:28,050 --> 00:52:28,852
[pj_wehry]: my yeah
807
00:52:28,772 --> 00:52:33,580
[paul_moser]: no no indeed and and notice if
you if you were to ask jesus he
808
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:38,909
[paul_moser]: would say there is no real life
without righteousness that would be losing your soul
809
00:52:39,590 --> 00:52:39,771
[paul_moser]: uh
810
00:52:39,834 --> 00:52:39,854
[pj_wehry]: m
811
00:52:40,151 --> 00:52:41,874
[paul_moser]: to gain the world and
812
00:52:41,965 --> 00:52:42,167
[pj_wehry]: right
813
00:52:42,074 --> 00:52:49,106
[paul_moser]: he's got this image of the only
life worth living is the righteousness of his
814
00:52:49,206 --> 00:52:56,358
[paul_moser]: father and he is bent on showing
this all the way up through gassemini and
815
00:52:56,418 --> 00:53:01,146
[paul_moser]: i regard gassemini as his signature moment
because there he's telling
816
00:53:00,993 --> 00:53:01,014
[pj_wehry]: m
817
00:53:01,226 --> 00:53:06,523
[paul_moser]: us who he really is in relation
to his father i mean in gasemini it's
818
00:53:06,664 --> 00:53:11,936
[paul_moser]: a ba father and then whose will
is first well i wanted it this way
819
00:53:12,096 --> 00:53:16,123
[paul_moser]: but i'm going to i'm going to
go for your righteousness
820
00:53:15,954 --> 00:53:16,215
[pj_wehry]: oh
821
00:53:16,623 --> 00:53:21,472
[paul_moser]: and i'm going to display it to
the world by this self give in event
822
00:53:22,133 --> 00:53:27,702
[paul_moser]: in jerusalem this doesn't look good for
me i'm not sure how it's going to
823
00:53:28,503 --> 00:53:32,851
[paul_moser]: work out in detail and so you
can get the cry of derelection in mark
824
00:53:32,806 --> 00:53:32,827
[pj_wehry]: m
825
00:53:32,971 --> 00:53:33,833
[paul_moser]: and matthew where
826
00:53:33,723 --> 00:53:33,744
[pj_wehry]: m
827
00:53:34,595 --> 00:53:41,634
[paul_moser]: my god my god is still my
god but what's going on here why have
828
00:53:41,544 --> 00:53:41,845
[pj_wehry]: oh
829
00:53:41,694 --> 00:53:42,976
[paul_moser]: you abandoned
830
00:53:43,009 --> 00:53:43,190
[pj_wehry]: oh
831
00:53:43,016 --> 00:53:43,597
[paul_moser]: me and
832
00:53:43,591 --> 00:53:43,691
[pj_wehry]: ah
833
00:53:43,657 --> 00:53:49,147
[paul_moser]: so he did feel abandoned and we
know that ultimately god didn't abandon them he
834
00:53:49,267 --> 00:53:55,719
[paul_moser]: raised him and exalted and paul says
in philippians because of his obedience paul says
835
00:53:55,584 --> 00:53:55,604
[pj_wehry]: m
836
00:53:55,820 --> 00:54:02,716
[paul_moser]: because he has given up his life
at the cross so i think the importance
837
00:54:02,997 --> 00:54:13,707
[paul_moser]: of righteousness as something we uminternalize something
we defined by is what jesus is all
838
00:54:13,767 --> 00:54:19,241
[paul_moser]: about i think that's what the new
birth is all about where god comes to
839
00:54:19,361 --> 00:54:26,797
[paul_moser]: people and works in their lives in
such a way that they reflect who god
840
00:54:26,978 --> 00:54:34,083
[paul_moser]: is and i think when that happens
um you have a game changer because no
841
00:54:34,263 --> 00:54:40,424
[paul_moser]: longer is it about am i listening
to this law or that law am i
842
00:54:40,524 --> 00:54:46,611
[paul_moser]: following this ritual or that ritual it's
about who i am in relation to this
843
00:54:46,712 --> 00:54:49,817
[paul_moser]: god but we'll never get there i
claim unless
844
00:54:49,734 --> 00:54:49,754
[pj_wehry]: m
845
00:54:49,917 --> 00:54:54,985
[paul_moser]: we stay in moral report this is
not a kind of do these three steps
846
00:54:55,404 --> 00:54:55,666
[pj_wehry]: yah
847
00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,389
[paul_moser]: you've succeeded now you're there
848
00:54:57,543 --> 00:54:57,947
[pj_wehry]: h yeah
849
00:54:58,210 --> 00:55:01,594
[paul_moser]: no it's more of a work in
progress and paul talks about
850
00:55:01,644 --> 00:55:01,866
[pj_wehry]: oh
851
00:55:01,655 --> 00:55:08,062
[paul_moser]: this when he asks whether he has
arrived and it's inflipient no of course not
852
00:55:08,542 --> 00:55:16,502
[paul_moser]: he's an ongoing project but it's in
that moral report that's where the eternal life
853
00:55:16,683 --> 00:55:21,756
[paul_moser]: is john's gospel even gets this when
it says this is eternal life to know
854
00:55:22,077 --> 00:55:29,745
[paul_moser]: you and the one you sent to
know you there that means this inter active
855
00:55:30,166 --> 00:55:36,857
[paul_moser]: relationship until we put that front and
center i think we're missing the mark and
856
00:55:37,158 --> 00:55:43,746
[paul_moser]: the only question we come the end
where should we look for real evidence that
857
00:55:43,827 --> 00:55:48,134
[paul_moser]: god is actually doing this stuff because
so far you might say well you know
858
00:55:48,174 --> 00:55:49,276
[paul_moser]: you've got a nice fairy
859
00:55:49,134 --> 00:55:49,315
[pj_wehry]: yeah
860
00:55:49,376 --> 00:55:55,286
[paul_moser]: tale there but it really does free
of what i need to take it seriously
861
00:55:55,626 --> 00:55:56,448
[paul_moser]: and i want to say
862
00:55:56,876 --> 00:55:56,896
[pj_wehry]: m
863
00:55:56,908 --> 00:56:02,458
[paul_moser]: no it doesn't if you take the
time to look within and see how your
864
00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:08,565
[paul_moser]: more looks eperience really is in other
words shut up for a minute and pay
865
00:56:08,645 --> 00:56:09,145
[paul_moser]: attention
866
00:56:08,904 --> 00:56:09,125
[pj_wehry]: yeah
867
00:56:09,826 --> 00:56:12,229
[paul_moser]: you will see this
868
00:56:12,273 --> 00:56:12,294
[pj_wehry]: m
869
00:56:13,110 --> 00:56:19,486
[paul_moser]: challenge to be convicted in conscience and
by the way that's the promise john's gospel
870
00:56:19,627 --> 00:56:24,855
[paul_moser]: gives for the departure of jesus the
spirit will come and he will convict you
871
00:56:25,496 --> 00:56:30,571
[paul_moser]: of and that gives the list of
righteousness i mean what's that about on victor
872
00:56:30,611 --> 00:56:34,239
[paul_moser]: of righteousness it's about what we've been
talking about that
873
00:56:34,416 --> 00:56:34,601
[pj_wehry]: right
874
00:56:35,682 --> 00:56:41,262
[paul_moser]: this is how god brings god's own
character into a human life and so you
875
00:56:41,282 --> 00:56:47,132
[paul_moser]: don't need the arguments of the philosophers
you don't need all the abstract stuff you
876
00:56:47,172 --> 00:56:53,308
[paul_moser]: need candor and you need something like
courage and loyalty to whatever goodness
877
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:53,754
[pj_wehry]: hm
878
00:56:54,011 --> 00:56:59,826
[paul_moser]: is presented to you even a child
can have that a ten year old
879
00:57:00,153 --> 00:57:00,174
[pj_wehry]: m
880
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,947
[paul_moser]: and have that kind of stuff and
so the philosophers become just a kind of
881
00:57:05,107 --> 00:57:10,837
[paul_moser]: afterthought let them write their homes let
them go off unto these various paths that
882
00:57:11,017 --> 00:57:12,339
[paul_moser]: isn't where the action is
883
00:57:13,464 --> 00:57:13,808
[pj_wehry]: yeah
884
00:57:13,550 --> 00:57:18,408
[paul_moser]: because that isn't where the spirit of
god is working in conscience
885
00:57:20,595 --> 00:57:24,446
[pj_wehry]: dr moser i can't think of a
better way to finish today thank you so
886
00:57:24,546 --> 00:57:26,652
[pj_wehry]: much it's been an absolute joy having
you on today
887
00:57:28,951 --> 00:57:30,196
[paul_moser]: i've enjoyed it thank you p j
888
00:57:30,534 --> 00:57:30,761
[pj_wehry]: oh
00:00:05,304 --> 00:00:10,450
[pj_wehry]: oh hello and welcome to chasing leviathan
i'm here today with dr paul moser professor
2
00:00:10,490 --> 00:00:15,779
[pj_wehry]: of philosophy at the loyola university of
chicago and this is the point where i
3
00:00:15,859 --> 00:00:18,864
[pj_wehry]: normally showed the book but i got
to enkindle so here kendall
4
00:00:19,620 --> 00:00:19,782
[paul_moser]: yeah
5
00:00:19,686 --> 00:00:24,977
[pj_wehry]: the book we're talking about today is
divine guidance from the elements and the problems
6
00:00:25,037 --> 00:00:30,241
[pj_wehry]: of god series from cambridge university press
r moser wonderful to have you today
7
00:00:31,340 --> 00:00:31,904
[paul_moser]: thank you p j
8
00:00:33,535 --> 00:00:36,500
[pj_wehry]: and so kind of as we just
get started i know that you have a
9
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:43,251
[pj_wehry]: kind of long and storied career in
these kind of areas but tell us a
10
00:00:43,271 --> 00:00:44,874
[pj_wehry]: little bit why this book in particular
11
00:00:48,930 --> 00:00:58,654
[paul_moser]: ever since i was about fifteen years
old i've been haunted by the question of
12
00:00:59,770 --> 00:01:04,875
[paul_moser]: what would evidence of god look like
because
13
00:01:05,073 --> 00:01:05,094
[pj_wehry]: m
14
00:01:06,950 --> 00:01:15,151
[paul_moser]: i had evidence from religious experience but
i still wanted to know the heart of
15
00:01:15,211 --> 00:01:23,665
[paul_moser]: that was what that religious experience included
that made it evidence of god in particular
16
00:01:23,574 --> 00:01:24,414
[pj_wehry]: yeah
17
00:01:24,807 --> 00:01:33,130
[paul_moser]: a god worthy of worship and so
i started looking for an answer to the
18
00:01:33,119 --> 00:01:33,359
[pj_wehry]: excuse
19
00:01:33,170 --> 00:01:33,591
[paul_moser]: question
20
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:33,460
[pj_wehry]: me
21
00:01:33,711 --> 00:01:40,766
[paul_moser]: of what would evidence of god look
like if it's in evidence of god will
22
00:01:40,776 --> 00:01:40,796
[pj_wehry]: m
23
00:01:40,826 --> 00:01:49,724
[paul_moser]: you naturally look to what various theologians
and philosophers have said and so that led
24
00:01:49,824 --> 00:02:01,005
[paul_moser]: me into taking up philosophy uh in
college and then graduate school with the common
25
00:02:01,947 --> 00:02:11,094
[paul_moser]: and enduring background question of what would
evidence of god actually be and in addition
26
00:02:11,755 --> 00:02:18,406
[paul_moser]: do we have such evidence well since
i'm fairly slow it took me a long
27
00:02:18,324 --> 00:02:18,789
[pj_wehry]: uh
28
00:02:18,507 --> 00:02:20,089
[paul_moser]: time to put some of
29
00:02:20,103 --> 00:02:20,124
[pj_wehry]: h
30
00:02:20,290 --> 00:02:21,571
[paul_moser]: pieces of
31
00:02:21,534 --> 00:02:21,922
[pj_wehry]: oh
32
00:02:21,631 --> 00:02:30,418
[paul_moser]: the puzzle together and they've come together
should always say piece meal and i tried
33
00:02:30,578 --> 00:02:30,719
[paul_moser]: to
34
00:02:31,404 --> 00:02:31,444
[pj_wehry]: ye
35
00:02:32,334 --> 00:02:39,376
[paul_moser]: crystalize some of the key views in
this book on divine guidance because in the
36
00:02:39,496 --> 00:02:48,018
[paul_moser]: end i think that a god worthy
of worship would want to be a good
37
00:02:48,519 --> 00:02:56,953
[paul_moser]: lord over humans and lordship there means
leadership and so you're at the door of
38
00:02:57,113 --> 00:03:03,384
[paul_moser]: guidance because leadership as i understand it
would be un coerced guidance
39
00:03:04,347 --> 00:03:04,367
[pj_wehry]: m
40
00:03:04,385 --> 00:03:12,636
[paul_moser]: and this is echoed i think throughout
not only the palms but parts of the
41
00:03:12,997 --> 00:03:21,794
[paul_moser]: new testament indeed paul says at one
point that those who are children god are
42
00:03:21,834 --> 00:03:29,720
[paul_moser]: those who are led guided by god
well what's this leading guiding stuff it's widely
43
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:37,262
[paul_moser]: neglected at least in the academic theology
and philosophy literature right including philosophy of religion
44
00:03:38,103 --> 00:03:44,654
[paul_moser]: so i figured well maybe this is
something crucial that's been overlooked and i would
45
00:03:44,734 --> 00:03:51,512
[paul_moser]: say that it is indeed in the
divine guidance book is an effort to spell
46
00:03:51,672 --> 00:03:59,886
[paul_moser]: out what it would be for god
to offer evidence of god towards the end
47
00:04:00,547 --> 00:04:08,580
[paul_moser]: of guiding people and i claim now
that what god would want above all is
48
00:04:08,781 --> 00:04:15,213
[paul_moser]: moral report with people where moral report
is
49
00:04:15,174 --> 00:04:15,194
[pj_wehry]: m
50
00:04:15,313 --> 00:04:24,258
[paul_moser]: similar to what paul calls communion god
in second corinthians um sometimes the word fellowship
51
00:04:24,358 --> 00:04:32,411
[paul_moser]: is used but i like the word
report because it suggests interaction and
52
00:04:32,514 --> 00:04:32,776
[pj_wehry]: oh
53
00:04:32,772 --> 00:04:33,654
[paul_moser]: inter personal
54
00:04:33,683 --> 00:04:33,804
[pj_wehry]: yeah
55
00:04:33,814 --> 00:04:34,555
[paul_moser]: interaction
56
00:04:35,274 --> 00:04:35,294
[pj_wehry]: m
57
00:04:35,517 --> 00:04:36,578
[paul_moser]: at that and so i claim
58
00:04:36,534 --> 00:04:37,194
[pj_wehry]: yeah
59
00:04:36,639 --> 00:04:38,742
[paul_moser]: the heart of the evidence
60
00:04:38,844 --> 00:04:39,187
[pj_wehry]: oh
61
00:04:38,882 --> 00:04:46,936
[paul_moser]: we need for god is not the
abstract stuff natural theology the first cause arguments
62
00:04:47,116 --> 00:04:55,370
[paul_moser]: the design arguments the fine tuning arguments
ontological i claim that's all too abstract for
63
00:04:55,450 --> 00:05:03,814
[paul_moser]: the kind of god who was sought
by abraham isaac jacob and paul i claim
64
00:05:03,894 --> 00:05:11,900
[paul_moser]: that god is one who would want
to guide people as their lord with whom
65
00:05:12,020 --> 00:05:14,325
[paul_moser]: they have what i call moral
66
00:05:14,964 --> 00:05:15,186
[pj_wehry]: yeah
67
00:05:15,127 --> 00:05:15,708
[paul_moser]: report
68
00:05:18,078 --> 00:05:23,697
[pj_wehry]: i definitely feel like i can understand
the report part of that m can you
69
00:05:23,817 --> 00:05:28,585
[pj_wehry]: comment a little bit on why you're
adding moral to that is that just that
70
00:05:28,645 --> 00:05:31,610
[pj_wehry]: it is good or that it has
to do with the moral dimension because i
71
00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:36,661
[pj_wehry]: remember you reference bober um uh somewhere
in here talking about
72
00:05:36,810 --> 00:05:36,830
[paul_moser]: m
73
00:05:37,824 --> 00:05:41,761
[pj_wehry]: not losing that god is not only
the ethical dimension
74
00:05:43,657 --> 00:05:50,889
[paul_moser]: yes that's a key question and the
answer comes in what i claim is a
75
00:05:51,110 --> 00:05:58,622
[paul_moser]: word central to all of the important
biblical narratives and that word
76
00:05:58,764 --> 00:05:59,724
[pj_wehry]: oh
77
00:05:59,203 --> 00:06:00,806
[paul_moser]: is righteousness
78
00:06:00,105 --> 00:06:01,508
[pj_wehry]: m m m
79
00:06:02,509 --> 00:06:02,869
[paul_moser]: god
80
00:06:02,664 --> 00:06:02,684
[pj_wehry]: o
81
00:06:02,989 --> 00:06:12,866
[paul_moser]: is continually described as righteous throughout the
hebrew bible and in the central writings of
82
00:06:12,926 --> 00:06:21,882
[paul_moser]: the new testament it's god's righteousness that
distinguishes god makes god unique and lo and
83
00:06:21,962 --> 00:06:33,471
[paul_moser]: behold it's what god wants to show
and enact through humans ezekiel says isaiah suggest
84
00:06:33,611 --> 00:06:41,304
[paul_moser]: as much and paul talks about the
righteousness god in christ in us in the
85
00:06:41,364 --> 00:06:48,236
[paul_moser]: followers and so i claim that god
would have at the heart of any kind
86
00:06:48,336 --> 00:06:51,461
[paul_moser]: of communion with humans
87
00:06:51,684 --> 00:06:51,704
[pj_wehry]: m
88
00:06:52,002 --> 00:07:00,376
[paul_moser]: any kind of fellowship the maintenance and
promotion of god's unique character of divine righteousness
89
00:07:01,157 --> 00:07:09,430
[paul_moser]: now i think that's what morality for
the biblical accounts is all about namely bringing
90
00:07:09,510 --> 00:07:17,543
[paul_moser]: divine righteousness into the life of wayward
humans and that big question becomes how do
91
00:07:17,604 --> 00:07:24,876
[paul_moser]: you get that and of course the
biblical writers are quite astute on this beginning
92
00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:34,628
[paul_moser]: with genesis where adam and eve are
portrayed as having a problem with god because
93
00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:38,103
[paul_moser]: they think god is withholding
94
00:07:37,284 --> 00:07:37,547
[pj_wehry]: oh
95
00:07:38,784 --> 00:07:40,647
[paul_moser]: something good from them indeed
96
00:07:40,734 --> 00:07:40,754
[pj_wehry]: m
97
00:07:41,248 --> 00:07:49,525
[paul_moser]: including making one wise genesis three says
that that eve thought that um eating of
98
00:07:49,665 --> 00:07:56,954
[paul_moser]: the fruit of the tree of knowledge
and good evil would make one wise well
99
00:07:57,115 --> 00:08:00,961
[paul_moser]: as if god had failed on that
front in other words the way to become
100
00:08:01,041 --> 00:08:03,465
[paul_moser]: wise is to disobey god that's the
101
00:08:03,446 --> 00:08:03,466
[pj_wehry]: m
102
00:08:03,545 --> 00:08:08,894
[paul_moser]: gist of what he was saying and
uh genesis three and then god has to
103
00:08:08,995 --> 00:08:17,529
[paul_moser]: do something to challenge this nonsense and
so god sets up the fiery protection for
104
00:08:17,629 --> 00:08:23,041
[paul_moser]: the a tree of the tree of
life and says you know you people have
105
00:08:23,562 --> 00:08:28,944
[paul_moser]: to have a break from this setting
but i need to protect people coming to
106
00:08:30,067 --> 00:08:35,357
[paul_moser]: this completely valuable knowledge by the wrong
means
107
00:08:36,109 --> 00:08:36,150
[pj_wehry]: m
108
00:08:36,298 --> 00:08:41,387
[paul_moser]: not by the means of even adam
but by the right means and you get
109
00:08:41,447 --> 00:08:50,402
[paul_moser]: a story about this when you get
to abraham because there god reckons righteousness to
110
00:08:50,542 --> 00:08:56,458
[paul_moser]: abraham by what not by his creating
his own way of wit dem not by
111
00:08:56,579 --> 00:09:03,232
[paul_moser]: following eve but as paul says in
romans four as genesis says he trusted god
112
00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:04,390
[paul_moser]: he
113
00:09:04,437 --> 00:09:04,457
[pj_wehry]: m
114
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[paul_moser]: didn't distrust
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: he didn't say oh maybe god
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[pj_wehry]: ye
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[paul_moser]: is withholding something good and so in
other words heve sides with the serpent and
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[paul_moser]: distrusting god abraham starts the renewal by
saying god even though i have no idea
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[paul_moser]: how you're going to work this out
in fact it's laughable i'm still going to
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[paul_moser]: trust you and so that notion of
righteousness participating in god's character becomes the very
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[paul_moser]: heart of what the biblical goal is
and when you get to matthew's gospel representing
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[paul_moser]: jesus righteousness is all over it seek
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[pj_wehry]: right
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[paul_moser]: first the kingdom and its righteousness
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[pj_wehry]: ah
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[paul_moser]: unless your righteousness exceeds that of the
pharisees forget about it and so again and
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[paul_moser]: paul is just all over this in
the romans right the whole thing is about
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[paul_moser]: righteousness and how you get it and
how you don't and so what i'm claiming
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[paul_moser]: is that's at the heart of report
because it's in that righteousness that you have
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[paul_moser]: what's called life with god that's where
life
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: with god is an edition and here's
what a lot of people miss that's also
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[paul_moser]: aware evidence for god's reality and goodness
is in that righteousness and so the question
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[paul_moser]: is well where do you find that
that's a nice talk sounds kind of uplifting
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[paul_moser]: and all that it's just so much
talk and i want to say wait a
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[paul_moser]: minute it's not if we reflect properly
we find something called the battle ground of
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[paul_moser]: the conscience that's what i call it
in the guidance book that were god is
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[paul_moser]: that work um most clearly in humans
and trying to work as they frustrate them
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[paul_moser]: as they suppress the truth is in
what we call conscience and of course
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[pj_wehry]: m
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00:11:06,049 --> 00:11:10,514
[paul_moser]: it's the the thing we suppress we
suppress it constantly we try to push it
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[paul_moser]: away we're too busy for it i
claim that that's where the most salient evidence
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[paul_moser]: of god is to be found outside
jesus outside
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[pj_wehry]: m
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00:11:22,050 --> 00:11:28,850
[paul_moser]: the life of jesus and paul confirms
this in romans five where he says hoping
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[paul_moser]: and believing in god they don't disappoint
us they don't leave us ashamed or embarrassed
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[paul_moser]: because god's a copy has been poured
out into our hearts through the holy spirit
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[paul_moser]: where heart for paul includes conscience that's
what paul is trying to point to here
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[paul_moser]: that within us and paul can even
say in romans nine that what i'm testifying
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[paul_moser]: to is confirmed
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: in conscience by the spirit of god
and so paul thinks of this thing that
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[paul_moser]: we call the conscience as loaded with
god's activity nudge us toward becoming the children
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[paul_moser]: of god and entering into what he
calls the glory of the freedom of the
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[paul_moser]: children
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: of god
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[pj_wehry]: which can only come through that liberation
of conscience
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[paul_moser]: that's right that
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[pj_wehry]: right
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[paul_moser]: god remakes the conscience by coming to
it but here's the hitch he doesn't make
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[paul_moser]: us manipulated pawns we have to co
operate now here's where a lot of people
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[paul_moser]: have been frightened in the past we
co operate are you bringing in to work
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[paul_moser]: are you staying
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: in and then that it's by works
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[pj_wehry]: oh ah
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[paul_moser]: this is just the biggest distortion you
can find in theology that's somehow obedience is
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[paul_moser]: a work in paul's technical sense romans
four
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: paul tells us what this technical sense
of work is and it's an earning it's
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[paul_moser]: something that would make god indebted or
obligated to
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: redeem us but obedience doesn't do that
obedience is a response to the good that
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[paul_moser]: god has brought into our lives has
nothing to do with earning people have collapsed
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[paul_moser]: the notion of anything active anything even
suggesting obedience with a work and they've said
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[paul_moser]: that can't fit with grace that's a
huge distortion
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: of divine grace just huge and it
had such a damper understanding what the good
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[paul_moser]: news is and how to receive it
so i'm trying to revitalize the biblical notion
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[paul_moser]: of responding in obedience to god's will
in the way that jesus did he talks
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[paul_moser]: explicitly about entering the kingdom only by
doing the will of father and that's obedience
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[paul_moser]: and it's at the heart of what
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: trusting god is
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[pj_wehry]: um m and forgive me i like
the mental kind of concrete examples and so
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[pj_wehry]: what i think you're talking about here
is there's
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: that
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: obvious idea of someone gives you a
task to do and you do it and
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[pj_wehry]: you get paid right that's what we
think of as a job and then think
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[pj_wehry]: right now my parents are out of
town on vacation we live in a multigenerational
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[pj_wehry]: house and my dad is paying the
boys to watch the dogs um they are
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[pj_wehry]: somewhat response for the dogs they are
five and seven not very responsible to be
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[pj_wehry]: quite frank we're the ones who are
taking care of the dogs right
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[paul_moser]: but
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[pj_wehry]: but
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[paul_moser]: not getting the money
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[pj_wehry]: right right exactly like
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[paul_moser]: uh
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[pj_wehry]: how does anyways
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[paul_moser]: uh m
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[pj_wehry]: but
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[paul_moser]: h
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[pj_wehry]: if you ask my son did he
work for that even though he's not really
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[pj_wehry]: capable he would say he worked for
it but even that i think is different
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[pj_wehry]: from this idea of life some of
h let's say you're short on rent and
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[pj_wehry]: a family member like drives up to
your house and says hey i have the
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[pj_wehry]: money can you come out and get
it now for whatever reason and you come
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[pj_wehry]: out and you get the money and
then someone's like well did you work for
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00:15:21,843 --> 00:15:26,230
[pj_wehry]: that and you're like well i did
walk outside and i took the money so
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[paul_moser]: yes
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[pj_wehry]: yes i worked for it and that's
that
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[paul_moser]: yeah
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[pj_wehry]: it seems to really destroy the whole
sense of work there is that
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[paul_moser]: it does
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[pj_wehry]: is that a good example what we're
talking about
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[paul_moser]: it is it is so it's your
birthday to day suppose
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: and you open your door and
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: there's this massive gift sitting there right
at the front
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: door and
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: you say wait i'm not gonna because
if i do it's not a gift it's
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[paul_moser]: something
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: that i've earned wait a minute receiving
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: a gift can include
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[pj_wehry]: s
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[paul_moser]: shall we say responding to it appropriately
and so
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[pj_wehry]: yes
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[paul_moser]: when god intervenes in a human life
say through conscience
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: with you know leading me
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[pj_wehry]: oh
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[paul_moser]: away from being too harsh to a
sibling or rude to a neighbor or whatever
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[paul_moser]: when god leads me away from that
in conscious and i respond with deeper
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[pj_wehry]: ah
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[paul_moser]: obedience that's not intended to earn anything
it's intended
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[pj_wehry]: i
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[paul_moser]: to co operate with god in the
goodness given as a gift given as grace
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[paul_moser]: there's no um meriting or there's no
conflict with grace there but it is astonishing
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: how many theologians including new testament theologians
stay away from that important idea of voluntary
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[paul_moser]: reception of a gift co operating with
god for fear that they might somehow curb
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[paul_moser]: or put a crimp on grace it's
just a conceptual confusion that i think has
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[paul_moser]: hindered large parts of the christian church
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[pj_wehry]: understandably um
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[paul_moser]: and then notice what falls out of
this if this has a role in faith
255
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[paul_moser]: this kind of co operation obedience then
jesus and paul fit together perfectly people have
256
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[paul_moser]: often wondered well what's with jesus all
on about obedience
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
258
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[paul_moser]: obeying doing but paul he's all on
about faith for this that they fit perfectly
259
00:17:30,743 --> 00:17:35,751
[paul_moser]: because there is something called the obedience
of faith where paul
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[pj_wehry]: m
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00:17:35,851 --> 00:17:40,739
[paul_moser]: uses that in romans twice the idea
is that there's an inherent part of faith
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[paul_moser]: that is co operative with god it
says yes and so paul can even talk
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[paul_moser]: about obeying the gospel in thessalonians it's
something to be obeyed so when jesus says
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[paul_moser]: repent and believe in the good news
in mark to start as ministry there's a
265
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[paul_moser]: call to obedience right there but it's
all so a call to faith as trust
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[paul_moser]: trust in god that this is good
news and so what we're getting then in
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[paul_moser]: jesus is a kind of re invigorating
of the promise to abraham where it's through
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[paul_moser]: this kind of trust that god wants
to bless all nations all families
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[pj_wehry]: m absolutely and you've talked little bit
about this god's that god's righteousness specifically in
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[pj_wehry]: this guidance to our conscience is evidence
what what are the tinuityes discontinuities between your
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[pj_wehry]: argument here and kind of the historical
moral argument for god's existence
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[paul_moser]: yeah the historical moral argument is an
argument and see i'm trying to get away
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[paul_moser]: from this idea that the way we
come to god is by saying
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[pj_wehry]: ye
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[paul_moser]: okay premise one premise two premise three
therefore conclusion i'm saying that's the wrong way
276
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[paul_moser]: to look at it instead what happens
is what i would call an inter personal
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[paul_moser]: meeting and inter person acquaintance and that
happens deep within conscience whenever we take conscience
278
00:19:15,379 --> 00:19:22,630
[paul_moser]: seriously that's not an argument it's one
agent meeting another where god's nudged in god's
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[paul_moser]: prodding god's gentle pressure sometimes not
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[pj_wehry]: m
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00:19:26,157 --> 00:19:27,098
[paul_moser]: quite so gentle but
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[pj_wehry]: oh
283
00:19:27,991 --> 00:19:33,631
[paul_moser]: it's not coercive not coerce can keep
you up all night but it's it's a
284
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[paul_moser]: place where one will meets another will
and that's more basic than any argument inter
285
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[paul_moser]: personal acquaintance is what you might invoke
to support a premise but it's not a
286
00:19:47,785 --> 00:19:54,536
[paul_moser]: premise it's not an intellectual formation of
a statement and so the traditional arguments kind
287
00:19:54,597 --> 00:19:59,044
[paul_moser]: of keep god at arm's length i
say here's my first premise here's my second
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00:19:59,104 --> 00:20:03,971
[paul_moser]: premise now i'm going to draw our
conclusion wait a minute people aren't being acquainted
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00:20:04,031 --> 00:20:09,080
[paul_moser]: with god when they're reflecting on the
premises of an argument they're thinking about statements
290
00:20:09,581 --> 00:20:15,051
[paul_moser]: and how an inference from the premises
leads to the conclusion well where's god god
291
00:20:15,111 --> 00:20:20,663
[paul_moser]: isn't an argument god isn't an inference
i'm trying to put the focus where i
292
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[paul_moser]: think the apostle paul put it where
i think jesus put it before him and
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[paul_moser]: where i think many of the prophets
put it to isaiah jeremiah zekiel they and
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[paul_moser]: direct acquaintance with god of the kind
akin to moses when when moses says in
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[paul_moser]: excess god show me your glory and
god says okay i'll give you a run
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[paul_moser]: at it and then what happens god
shows god's goodness
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[pj_wehry]: m
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[paul_moser]: moses it's a remarkable passage moses wants
the glory and then god says my goodness
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[paul_moser]: will pass by which is a profound
statement to identify the power and glory of
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[paul_moser]: god with the moral goodness of god
that's utterly profound especially given a lot of
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[paul_moser]: theology in ancient times well and that's
what john's gospel is trying to do to
302
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[paul_moser]: take the glory of god and put
it in self sacrificing jesus you want to
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[paul_moser]: see the glory look at him on
the cross and it should we say shifts
304
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[paul_moser]: the terms of what it is to
be divine glory and so no argument needed
305
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[paul_moser]: here
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[pj_wehry]: yeah
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[paul_moser]: even a child could have that kind
of acquaintance with god and say you want
308
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[paul_moser]: an argument from me sorry i can't
give it but that doesn't harm my evidence
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[paul_moser]: my evidence is this inter personal acquaintance
that is on going in a life and
310
00:21:56,222 --> 00:21:57,845
[paul_moser]: that's where the assurance comes
311
00:21:58,374 --> 00:21:59,034
[pj_wehry]: oh
312
00:21:58,546 --> 00:22:08,216
[paul_moser]: by god continuing to display god's goodness
if if we're attentive to it but we
313
00:22:08,336 --> 00:22:13,064
[paul_moser]: do have a role to play here
we are not mere pawns in some kind
314
00:22:13,104 --> 00:22:16,530
[paul_moser]: of chess game and we see that
by the way even in the like a
315
00:22:16,610 --> 00:22:21,860
[paul_moser]: job where god sends up sets up
a test believe it or not god is
316
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,365
[paul_moser]: the one who got job into all
that trouble
317
00:22:25,104 --> 00:22:25,427
[pj_wehry]: oh
318
00:22:25,227 --> 00:22:27,053
[paul_moser]: god says hey ah
319
00:22:27,103 --> 00:22:28,225
[pj_wehry]: ah yeah
320
00:22:28,681 --> 00:22:37,325
[paul_moser]: he deceiver he my adversary check out
my follower job here and see what he's
321
00:22:37,425 --> 00:22:40,349
[paul_moser]: worth and you want to say don't
do that god
322
00:22:40,824 --> 00:22:41,045
[pj_wehry]: yeah
323
00:22:40,940 --> 00:22:42,105
[paul_moser]: this is going to destroy
324
00:22:43,139 --> 00:22:43,300
[pj_wehry]: yeah
325
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:47,564
[paul_moser]: and you know you don't want god
to say that about you just the adversary
326
00:22:47,945 --> 00:22:58,005
[paul_moser]: check out this so job takes upon
himself this reflection on well things have gone
327
00:22:58,045 --> 00:23:02,031
[paul_moser]: from bad to worse what's wrong with
my life and all of his friends have
328
00:23:02,172 --> 00:23:07,463
[paul_moser]: answers you know the answers philosophers would
give god eventually shows up says you know
329
00:23:07,543 --> 00:23:13,088
[paul_moser]: shut up guys you know what you're
talking about and job job meets god
330
00:23:13,794 --> 00:23:13,814
[pj_wehry]: m
331
00:23:14,312 --> 00:23:19,794
[paul_moser]: and says you know i've now seen
god i've now had an acquaintance with god
332
00:23:19,834 --> 00:23:21,016
[paul_moser]: he doesn't mean visual seeing
333
00:23:21,744 --> 00:23:21,764
[pj_wehry]: m
334
00:23:22,117 --> 00:23:27,977
[paul_moser]: and then he can say now i
can trust him even if even if i
335
00:23:28,118 --> 00:23:36,343
[paul_moser]: end up daustrayed in this that's where
the biblical evidence for god wants to take
336
00:23:36,403 --> 00:23:43,607
[paul_moser]: us not to this do i have
another refinement on this argument it's where do
337
00:23:43,688 --> 00:23:48,776
[paul_moser]: i now stand face to face with
god if we don't take people there they
338
00:23:48,856 --> 00:23:53,604
[paul_moser]: won't get the message and that's why
jesus is so enigmatic i mean he doesn't
339
00:23:53,664 --> 00:24:00,532
[paul_moser]: come on the scene and just give
you the standard think about this he's evasive
340
00:24:00,572 --> 00:24:07,860
[paul_moser]: he's elusive he's trying to get the
conscience of his audience where they will be
341
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:16,137
[paul_moser]: struck by wait a minute maybe god
is my father maybe god is and now
342
00:24:16,257 --> 00:24:21,486
[paul_moser]: what i think that's what jesus wanted
to do and it's awfully hard to do
343
00:24:22,387 --> 00:24:26,478
[paul_moser]: and look where it got him yeah
it may get you killed
344
00:24:27,174 --> 00:24:27,436
[pj_wehry]: yeah
345
00:24:27,261 --> 00:24:33,149
[paul_moser]: um but the point is he says
that this is the way you pursue his
346
00:24:33,270 --> 00:24:39,629
[paul_moser]: father and i think that's what the
sermon on the mount is really about how
347
00:24:39,770 --> 00:24:46,573
[paul_moser]: is it that you position yourself respond
to god and jesus seemed to call it
348
00:24:46,673 --> 00:24:53,005
[paul_moser]: purity of heart and by that he
meant sharing in god's goodness because as he
349
00:24:53,105 --> 00:24:54,829
[paul_moser]: said only god is good
350
00:24:56,384 --> 00:25:03,196
[pj_wehry]: yeah um thank you and just a
really beautiful summation of what we've been talking
351
00:25:03,216 --> 00:25:09,466
[pj_wehry]: about so far it definitely seems like
i think the attraction of the moral argument
352
00:25:10,468 --> 00:25:15,777
[pj_wehry]: which is also its danger is that
it puts us in control which is very
353
00:25:15,857 --> 00:25:25,697
[pj_wehry]: much uh antithetical to what we started
with talking about god wants to exhibit good
354
00:25:25,977 --> 00:25:32,668
[pj_wehry]: lordship which you define is leadership and
un coerced guidance if you don't mind i
355
00:25:32,748 --> 00:25:36,496
[pj_wehry]: did want to ask where do you
you've talked a little about seeing that in
356
00:25:36,576 --> 00:25:41,264
[pj_wehry]: palms and paul but can you talked
a little bit because i feel like especially
357
00:25:41,304 --> 00:25:46,613
[pj_wehry]: in philosophy definitions are really important and
the idea of leadership as uncoerced guidance dey
358
00:25:46,653 --> 00:25:49,638
[pj_wehry]: definitely seems controversial so can you argue
359
00:25:49,572 --> 00:25:49,734
[paul_moser]: ship
360
00:25:49,678 --> 00:25:52,183
[pj_wehry]: for that a little bit or at
least discuss that a little bit
361
00:25:53,180 --> 00:26:00,773
[paul_moser]: yeah there i have in mind just
the continuing theme throughout the hebrew bible that
362
00:26:02,536 --> 00:26:07,371
[paul_moser]: god is the one who leads in
paths of righteousness palm
363
00:26:07,224 --> 00:26:07,244
[pj_wehry]: m
364
00:26:07,472 --> 00:26:11,243
[paul_moser]: twenty three one of the most remarkable
365
00:26:11,364 --> 00:26:11,384
[pj_wehry]: m
366
00:26:11,764 --> 00:26:12,745
[paul_moser]: pieces of literature
367
00:26:12,585 --> 00:26:12,606
[pj_wehry]: m
368
00:26:12,925 --> 00:26:13,667
[paul_moser]: ever produced
369
00:26:13,233 --> 00:26:14,005
[pj_wehry]: m oh
370
00:26:14,328 --> 00:26:15,770
[paul_moser]: and the profundity
371
00:26:15,129 --> 00:26:15,611
[pj_wehry]: oh no
372
00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:22,722
[paul_moser]: of it comes in that shift from
the third person to the second person so
373
00:26:22,822 --> 00:26:29,693
[paul_moser]: god is the one who makes me
lie down in green pastures who leads me
374
00:26:29,774 --> 00:26:35,764
[paul_moser]: beside the still waters who stores my
soul mean paths of righteousness but then what
375
00:26:35,824 --> 00:26:42,054
[paul_moser]: happens then what happens well then even
if i walk through the valley
376
00:26:41,973 --> 00:26:41,994
[pj_wehry]: m
377
00:26:42,134 --> 00:26:48,785
[paul_moser]: the shadow of death i will fear
no evil i because thou art with
378
00:26:48,714 --> 00:26:49,524
[pj_wehry]: yeah
379
00:26:48,905 --> 00:26:54,555
[paul_moser]: me notice that shift to the second
person something profound is happening there and that's
380
00:26:54,735 --> 00:27:01,750
[paul_moser]: where the desired guidance comes from not
from okay give me the information book give
381
00:27:01,790 --> 00:27:09,984
[paul_moser]: me the instruction book and i'll be
okay god no it's second person thou art
382
00:27:10,104 --> 00:27:15,337
[paul_moser]: with me and the psalmist goes on
to talk about god in the second person
383
00:27:16,338 --> 00:27:23,753
[paul_moser]: until the end that is a profound
shift that shows just the depth of that
384
00:27:23,894 --> 00:27:30,632
[paul_moser]: palmist and you get the same thing
um m in jesus in the in the
385
00:27:30,712 --> 00:27:37,130
[paul_moser]: lord's prayer right where you get thy
kingdom come thy
386
00:27:37,069 --> 00:27:37,089
[pj_wehry]: m
387
00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:44,460
[paul_moser]: will be done and guess where that
comes from gessemini because it's in guessemini where
388
00:27:44,540 --> 00:27:49,505
[paul_moser]: jesus says i really need to plan
be here father this is not looking good
389
00:27:49,565 --> 00:27:59,195
[paul_moser]: at all and then shifts to butt
but your will be done not mine and
390
00:27:59,256 --> 00:28:07,889
[paul_moser]: so the kind of guidance i'm talking
about here he is second person toward god
391
00:28:08,693 --> 00:28:14,727
[paul_moser]: and god speaking to us in the
second person and the key with that kind
392
00:28:14,807 --> 00:28:24,460
[paul_moser]: of guidance is it's inherently rejectable indeed
even jesus considered saying you know this cross
393
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:31,769
[paul_moser]: idea looked good and i've predicted it
three times in the gospel of mark but
394
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,825
[paul_moser]: know now that i'm on top of
this i don't really like this
395
00:28:36,445 --> 00:28:36,587
[pj_wehry]: yeah
396
00:28:36,526 --> 00:28:37,829
[paul_moser]: you know jerusalem is
397
00:28:37,815 --> 00:28:37,997
[pj_wehry]: yeah
398
00:28:37,929 --> 00:28:42,256
[paul_moser]: not looking good at all while his
disciples had fallen asleep
399
00:28:42,234 --> 00:28:42,475
[pj_wehry]: yeah
400
00:28:42,777 --> 00:28:44,099
[paul_moser]: luke says he had been sweating
401
00:28:43,883 --> 00:28:44,004
[pj_wehry]: yeah
402
00:28:44,199 --> 00:28:44,379
[paul_moser]: blood
403
00:28:44,698 --> 00:28:44,799
[pj_wehry]: oh
404
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:53,348
[paul_moser]: over this he was so frightened of
what was coming but he resorts to this
405
00:28:54,050 --> 00:28:56,880
[paul_moser]: i won't reject this i won't
406
00:28:56,655 --> 00:28:56,716
[pj_wehry]: m
407
00:28:57,101 --> 00:28:57,582
[paul_moser]: i will
408
00:28:57,483 --> 00:28:57,504
[pj_wehry]: m
409
00:28:57,782 --> 00:29:05,654
[paul_moser]: say your will first and so if
you take that away that rejectable challenge from
410
00:29:05,734 --> 00:29:06,095
[paul_moser]: god
411
00:29:06,303 --> 00:29:06,324
[pj_wehry]: m
412
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:10,522
[paul_moser]: we become mere manipulated pawns and that
is not
413
00:29:10,374 --> 00:29:11,184
[pj_wehry]: yeah
414
00:29:11,123 --> 00:29:13,287
[paul_moser]: what we are portrayed to be by
415
00:29:13,194 --> 00:29:14,154
[pj_wehry]: oh
416
00:29:13,447 --> 00:29:19,757
[paul_moser]: all the biblical injunctions consider all the
commands fear not don't do this we are
417
00:29:19,918 --> 00:29:28,091
[paul_moser]: not treated as manipulated pawns we are
held accountable for how we respond abraham is
418
00:29:28,212 --> 00:29:33,909
[paul_moser]: praised for his response paul says in
romans for he didn't cringing
419
00:29:34,533 --> 00:29:34,554
[pj_wehry]: m
420
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:44,611
[paul_moser]: disobedience but with resolve trusted god's promise
jesus praisus people for receiving his word in
421
00:29:44,671 --> 00:29:50,543
[paul_moser]: the parable the sower uh in mark's
gospel to begin with in luke's gospel it's
422
00:29:50,603 --> 00:29:57,195
[paul_moser]: explicit about the good heart of a
person responding to the word m paul talks
423
00:29:57,295 --> 00:30:03,586
[paul_moser]: about it in romans where god meets
resistance but holds out his hands to a
424
00:30:03,666 --> 00:30:05,469
[paul_moser]: disobedient and stubborn
425
00:30:05,236 --> 00:30:05,276
[pj_wehry]: m
426
00:30:05,589 --> 00:30:13,613
[paul_moser]: people god is seeking for people to
use their will to comply and that's what
427
00:30:14,655 --> 00:30:23,129
[paul_moser]: voluntary response is to this kind of
uncoerced un coerce guidance take that away and
428
00:30:23,169 --> 00:30:30,286
[paul_moser]: you've got um sham of a story
where there's coercion and none of it makes
429
00:30:30,366 --> 00:30:34,987
[paul_moser]: sense everything becomes just unintelligible
430
00:30:36,344 --> 00:30:40,453
[pj_wehry]: so even as i'm listening here and
i'm thinking about your distinction between what you're
431
00:30:40,494 --> 00:30:46,333
[pj_wehry]: doing here and the moral argument i
can't help be struck by kind of the
432
00:30:47,624 --> 00:30:53,013
[pj_wehry]: on going argument about what evil is
between for instance plato's definition that basically if
433
00:30:53,193 --> 00:30:57,039
[pj_wehry]: people know the good they will do
the good and then it's very
434
00:30:56,910 --> 00:30:57,192
[paul_moser]: uh
435
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,881
[pj_wehry]: clear in the bible
436
00:30:57,919 --> 00:30:57,960
[paul_moser]: uh
437
00:30:57,961 --> 00:31:01,707
[pj_wehry]: that like people the good and they
choose not to do it
438
00:31:02,250 --> 00:31:02,493
[paul_moser]: oh
439
00:31:02,308 --> 00:31:03,350
[pj_wehry]: anyways u
440
00:31:03,794 --> 00:31:03,958
[paul_moser]: yeah
441
00:31:03,811 --> 00:31:09,200
[pj_wehry]: and so in some ways that seems
as you're talking about becoming these ponds these
442
00:31:10,842 --> 00:31:12,144
[pj_wehry]: robots that
443
00:31:12,879 --> 00:31:12,900
[paul_moser]: m
444
00:31:12,905 --> 00:31:14,426
[pj_wehry]: the idea is well if we just
445
00:31:14,370 --> 00:31:14,970
[paul_moser]: yeah
446
00:31:14,526 --> 00:31:17,409
[pj_wehry]: knew to do good we would do
it and really that element of choice
447
00:31:17,730 --> 00:31:17,750
[paul_moser]: m
448
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:25,519
[pj_wehry]: is plays a central role here what
is you've talked quite a bit about will
449
00:31:25,619 --> 00:31:30,312
[pj_wehry]: and choice and the conscience what is
the relationship between those two things
450
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,166
[paul_moser]: yeah i think there's an intimate relationship
and by the way on the oars or
451
00:31:34,266 --> 00:31:38,132
[paul_moser]: weakness of will i don't think plato
held that all his life for one thing
452
00:31:38,172 --> 00:31:43,641
[paul_moser]: we know that aristotle refuted the view
aristotle roundly rig i i and in some
453
00:31:43,681 --> 00:31:47,768
[paul_moser]: of the later works it seems that
plato has moved away from what may have
454
00:31:47,788 --> 00:31:51,314
[paul_moser]: been a socratic view that that if
you know the good you'll do the good
455
00:31:52,376 --> 00:31:56,102
[paul_moser]: and as you know in roman seven
paul i just has none of that i
456
00:31:56,182 --> 00:31:56,322
[paul_moser]: mean
457
00:31:56,514 --> 00:31:56,897
[pj_wehry]: all right
458
00:31:56,743 --> 00:31:56,964
[paul_moser]: you know
459
00:31:57,018 --> 00:31:57,180
[pj_wehry]: right
460
00:31:57,044 --> 00:31:59,648
[paul_moser]: the good that i would do i
don't i mean paul
461
00:31:59,553 --> 00:31:59,574
[pj_wehry]: m
462
00:31:59,688 --> 00:32:04,035
[paul_moser]: is is clear that the knowledge can
be in place but the will need not
463
00:32:04,135 --> 00:32:10,386
[paul_moser]: be the interesting thing about cons and
is that i think it's as interactive as
464
00:32:10,827 --> 00:32:16,135
[paul_moser]: typical action so that i think that
you can be presented with something in conscience
465
00:32:16,296 --> 00:32:23,027
[paul_moser]: and choose to sup and paul talks
about suppressing or holding down the truth of
466
00:32:23,147 --> 00:32:28,236
[paul_moser]: god and romans and i think you
can do that in conscience you can you
467
00:32:28,276 --> 00:32:34,571
[paul_moser]: can take what is suggested to you
either ignore it or outright oppose it and
468
00:32:34,651 --> 00:32:40,841
[paul_moser]: paul then in his references to the
conscience and there are several clear ones is
469
00:32:41,021 --> 00:32:46,530
[paul_moser]: urging people to pay attention to their
conscience in a way that cool operates with
470
00:32:46,584 --> 00:32:47,334
[pj_wehry]: yeah
471
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:52,857
[paul_moser]: god's spirit because he says that god's
spirit can confirm things through conscience
472
00:32:52,413 --> 00:32:52,434
[pj_wehry]: m
473
00:32:53,578 --> 00:32:58,375
[paul_moser]: and so it's a place where we
are still agents yes
474
00:32:58,868 --> 00:32:58,889
[pj_wehry]: m
475
00:32:59,017 --> 00:33:08,642
[paul_moser]: we can be interrupted even at three
a m with conscience but we can respond
476
00:33:09,984 --> 00:33:15,353
[paul_moser]: as we see fit and a lot
of times you know i really would like
477
00:33:15,954 --> 00:33:20,021
[paul_moser]: to eat my vengeance cold and get
my
478
00:33:19,914 --> 00:33:20,195
[pj_wehry]: oh
479
00:33:20,862 --> 00:33:22,866
[paul_moser]: vengeance on somebody and
480
00:33:22,912 --> 00:33:23,133
[pj_wehry]: yeah
481
00:33:23,407 --> 00:33:29,337
[paul_moser]: and you know i can go against
god's will for that and i mean shame
482
00:33:29,417 --> 00:33:31,520
[paul_moser]: on me when i do but let's
ace the
483
00:33:31,404 --> 00:33:31,846
[pj_wehry]: yeah
484
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,864
[paul_moser]: fact that we are very good
485
00:33:33,714 --> 00:33:33,875
[pj_wehry]: yeah
486
00:33:34,365 --> 00:33:41,837
[paul_moser]: at telling stories to get around the
hard demands especially when they involve things like
487
00:33:42,038 --> 00:33:47,806
[paul_moser]: enemy love i love my enemy come
on let me get paid back first and
488
00:33:47,886 --> 00:33:55,910
[paul_moser]: then we'll talk about it so i'm
active even there and that's because god has
489
00:33:56,030 --> 00:34:00,598
[paul_moser]: given in prevenient grace human agency god
490
00:34:00,618 --> 00:34:00,639
[pj_wehry]: m
491
00:34:00,678 --> 00:34:07,690
[paul_moser]: wants report with agents in god's image
not machines not something that
492
00:34:07,704 --> 00:34:07,989
[pj_wehry]: yeah
493
00:34:07,770 --> 00:34:15,483
[paul_moser]: god is simply caused to come about
including in decisions that isn't an inter personal
494
00:34:15,583 --> 00:34:20,741
[paul_moser]: relation that would be just an extension
of god's own will and so there's none
495
00:34:20,781 --> 00:34:29,033
[paul_moser]: of that in jesus or in paul's
writing because they're loaded with injunctions to
496
00:34:29,094 --> 00:34:29,274
[pj_wehry]: yeah
497
00:34:29,153 --> 00:34:31,477
[paul_moser]: us to respond in a certain way
498
00:34:31,563 --> 00:34:31,683
[pj_wehry]: yeah
499
00:34:32,298 --> 00:34:38,419
[paul_moser]: and acknowledging that we can respond um
and so we have to take that utterly
500
00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:44,208
[paul_moser]: seriously i think across the board not
just in ordinary action but even in responding
501
00:34:44,268 --> 00:34:44,869
[paul_moser]: to conscience
502
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:50,872
[pj_wehry]: and i hear you talking quite a
bit about encounter and you mentioned moover i
503
00:34:50,952 --> 00:34:54,839
[pj_wehry]: don't remember if you mentioned levins how
much do you take from them and how
504
00:34:54,879 --> 00:34:56,943
[pj_wehry]: much of their influence is present
505
00:34:57,512 --> 00:34:59,261
[paul_moser]: very little from aqulinus in fact
506
00:34:59,894 --> 00:35:01,760
[pj_wehry]: i'm sorry levins apologies
507
00:35:02,514 --> 00:35:02,876
[paul_moser]: levina
508
00:35:03,374 --> 00:35:04,136
[pj_wehry]: levin a sorry
509
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,562
[paul_moser]: levin levina
510
00:35:05,238 --> 00:35:06,200
[pj_wehry]: my pronunciayeah
511
00:35:05,803 --> 00:35:09,210
[paul_moser]: no no no no i don't that
that
512
00:35:09,144 --> 00:35:09,388
[pj_wehry]: oh
513
00:35:09,270 --> 00:35:11,776
[paul_moser]: kind of language doesn't help me when
514
00:35:11,835 --> 00:35:11,917
[pj_wehry]: got
515
00:35:11,856 --> 00:35:12,097
[paul_moser]: people
516
00:35:11,979 --> 00:35:12,061
[pj_wehry]: you
517
00:35:12,177 --> 00:35:14,931
[paul_moser]: talk about other ing the other and
518
00:35:15,534 --> 00:35:17,064
[pj_wehry]: yeah
519
00:35:16,033 --> 00:35:17,935
[paul_moser]: i don't my view
520
00:35:17,805 --> 00:35:17,927
[pj_wehry]: ah
521
00:35:18,996 --> 00:35:23,284
[paul_moser]: is by design steeped in the biblical
narratives
522
00:35:23,759 --> 00:35:23,779
[pj_wehry]: m
523
00:35:24,367 --> 00:35:32,342
[paul_moser]: and i have a strong preference for
paul's understanding of jesus um even over that
524
00:35:32,402 --> 00:35:37,190
[paul_moser]: of hebrews because paul has a view
of self sacrifice the writer of he i
525
00:35:37,310 --> 00:35:43,661
[paul_moser]: thought that that had ended and i
think it's more complex than that but i
526
00:35:43,701 --> 00:35:49,029
[paul_moser]: think paul has the most profound understanding
of who jesus is in the new test
527
00:35:49,130 --> 00:35:54,325
[paul_moser]: i meant and so i get my
views largely through paul
528
00:35:55,074 --> 00:35:55,094
[pj_wehry]: m
529
00:35:55,187 --> 00:36:02,310
[paul_moser]: and i think he just sheds incredible
light on jesus as well as on the
530
00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:08,781
[paul_moser]: place of the hebrew bible the place
of the law i think even though he
531
00:36:08,821 --> 00:36:18,103
[paul_moser]: had never met jesus bodily understood him
with unmatched depth so yeah i don't i
532
00:36:18,144 --> 00:36:19,327
[paul_moser]: don't look to any
533
00:36:19,554 --> 00:36:20,394
[pj_wehry]: yeah
534
00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:26,480
[paul_moser]: contemporary philosophers in this regard although i
do have some favorites and most of my
535
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:33,472
[paul_moser]: favorites are philosophical theologians who are long
dead and they it's interesting many of them
536
00:36:33,532 --> 00:36:40,623
[paul_moser]: come out of scotland like p t
forsyth i love his work h r mackintosh
537
00:36:41,265 --> 00:36:49,638
[paul_moser]: i love his work and i think
they just john bailey has done really remarkable
538
00:36:49,699 --> 00:36:55,108
[paul_moser]: work on the relation of ethics to
god and some older were in the gens
539
00:36:55,168 --> 00:37:00,402
[paul_moser]: book on or no age of god
so my favorites would come out of that
540
00:37:00,543 --> 00:37:07,955
[paul_moser]: tradition the philosopher s i think i
don't think they understand the biblical narratives adequately
541
00:37:08,256 --> 00:37:09,217
[paul_moser]: i don't think aclinist
542
00:37:09,273 --> 00:37:09,294
[pj_wehry]: m
543
00:37:09,357 --> 00:37:16,010
[paul_moser]: did i don't think nos did even
boober i mean boober was obviously a scholar
544
00:37:16,050 --> 00:37:19,917
[paul_moser]: of the hebrew bible but i find
him
545
00:37:23,012 --> 00:37:29,691
[paul_moser]: almost too abstract and philosophical and i
don't think he takes the benefit jesus into
546
00:37:29,771 --> 00:37:37,531
[paul_moser]: his account i think hessel abraham heschell
moves a bit closer but i think until
547
00:37:37,591 --> 00:37:43,257
[paul_moser]: you until you look at jesus and
paul you are at a real disadvantage in
548
00:37:43,317 --> 00:37:45,179
[paul_moser]: putting the pieces of the puzzle together
549
00:37:47,184 --> 00:37:52,357
[pj_wehry]: yeah thank you that really that helps
a lot and there's definitely there's names that
550
00:37:52,417 --> 00:37:56,962
[pj_wehry]: i had heard but i've never read
so i will definitely look those up later
551
00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:03,007
[pj_wehry]: you mentioned earlier talking about loving your
enemy and that seems to be kind of
552
00:38:03,487 --> 00:38:08,812
[pj_wehry]: a key thread throughout your book why
is that the key thread in your argument
553
00:38:08,611 --> 00:38:08,755
[paul_moser]: yeah
554
00:38:08,872 --> 00:38:09,973
[pj_wehry]: about divine guidance
555
00:38:10,570 --> 00:38:15,498
[paul_moser]: yeah that's your right to perceive that
that's because that takes us to the heart
556
00:38:16,059 --> 00:38:18,483
[paul_moser]: of god's moral character and what does
it mean
557
00:38:18,933 --> 00:38:18,954
[pj_wehry]: m
558
00:38:19,044 --> 00:38:24,573
[paul_moser]: means that god's love is unearned i
mean if god can of god's enemies i
559
00:38:24,593 --> 00:38:30,984
[paul_moser]: mean you hardly say oh my enemy
here who hates me earns my love no
560
00:38:31,084 --> 00:38:38,536
[paul_moser]: on the contrary god's love is amazing
because it extends to god's enemies and paul
561
00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:44,105
[paul_moser]: endorses this two in romans twelve echoing
the sermon on the mount or i don't
562
00:38:44,125 --> 00:38:50,134
[paul_moser]: know echoing in the in a broad
sense be romans was written before matthew but
563
00:38:50,535 --> 00:38:59,593
[paul_moser]: paul knew about this through independent means
and what you have there is jesus ming
564
00:39:00,721 --> 00:39:00,842
[paul_moser]: to
565
00:39:00,753 --> 00:39:00,774
[pj_wehry]: m
566
00:39:01,404 --> 00:39:06,925
[paul_moser]: represent his father show us who god
is and to enact god's moral character through
567
00:39:06,965 --> 00:39:15,812
[paul_moser]: the cross and the resurrection and in
doing so in acting god's enemy love so
568
00:39:15,973 --> 00:39:16,393
[paul_moser]: paul can
569
00:39:16,298 --> 00:39:16,319
[pj_wehry]: m
570
00:39:16,513 --> 00:39:23,600
[paul_moser]: say in romans while we were still
enemies we were reconciled to god through jesus
571
00:39:24,281 --> 00:39:27,804
[paul_moser]: and so we don't usually think of
this but that's the fact of the matter
572
00:39:28,345 --> 00:39:35,312
[paul_moser]: when we respond to the good news
we are enemies of god responding to god's
573
00:39:35,453 --> 00:39:39,967
[paul_moser]: love so enemy love becomes the kind
of love
574
00:39:39,903 --> 00:39:39,924
[pj_wehry]: m
575
00:39:40,127 --> 00:39:44,576
[paul_moser]: unique to god i hate to be
offensive but you and i don't have that
576
00:39:44,676 --> 00:39:46,851
[paul_moser]: enemy love on our own i mean
577
00:39:46,794 --> 00:39:46,814
[pj_wehry]: m
578
00:39:46,891 --> 00:39:52,645
[paul_moser]: just check out how you've treated your
enemies throughout your life and if we're honest
579
00:39:52,705 --> 00:39:55,401
[paul_moser]: we're going to say now at best
580
00:39:56,244 --> 00:39:56,465
[pj_wehry]: yeah
581
00:39:56,423 --> 00:39:59,368
[paul_moser]: there second class citizens in my world
if
582
00:39:59,394 --> 00:39:59,676
[pj_wehry]: uh
583
00:39:59,408 --> 00:40:01,151
[paul_moser]: they're allowed to be citizens at all
584
00:40:01,733 --> 00:40:02,075
[pj_wehry]: yeah yeah
585
00:40:01,952 --> 00:40:05,678
[paul_moser]: um and you know i share that
so when i hear about you know what
586
00:40:05,799 --> 00:40:10,860
[paul_moser]: hitler did and our complicity in the
holy cost in the use
587
00:40:09,806 --> 00:40:09,846
[pj_wehry]: m
588
00:40:10,990 --> 00:40:16,906
[paul_moser]: it's just outrageous it's outrageous how we
treated the jews and we're supposed to offer
589
00:40:17,046 --> 00:40:18,871
[paul_moser]: forgiveness i mean
590
00:40:18,804 --> 00:40:18,824
[pj_wehry]: m
591
00:40:18,992 --> 00:40:21,613
[paul_moser]: come on that's just crazy
592
00:40:21,483 --> 00:40:21,504
[pj_wehry]: m
593
00:40:22,460 --> 00:40:26,246
[paul_moser]: and then people get all confused because
they say that means you don't challenge them
594
00:40:26,546 --> 00:40:32,356
[paul_moser]: that means you can don evil no
it doesn't an offer of forgiveness is not
595
00:40:33,258 --> 00:40:37,808
[paul_moser]: forgiveness received that would require repentance will
hitler
596
00:40:37,794 --> 00:40:38,544
[pj_wehry]: yeah
597
00:40:37,868 --> 00:40:40,695
[paul_moser]: repent i don't know don't ask me
598
00:40:40,884 --> 00:40:41,145
[pj_wehry]: yeah
599
00:40:41,136 --> 00:40:43,953
[paul_moser]: but the point is it looks as
if some people
600
00:40:43,818 --> 00:40:44,019
[pj_wehry]: yeah
601
00:40:44,113 --> 00:40:49,046
[paul_moser]: won't because jesus was willing to say
it had been better if that man had
602
00:40:49,106 --> 00:40:49,808
[paul_moser]: not been born
603
00:40:50,896 --> 00:40:50,937
[pj_wehry]: m
604
00:40:51,070 --> 00:40:58,152
[paul_moser]: so i aspire to universalism i hope
everybody's there at the party the evidence isn't
605
00:40:58,212 --> 00:40:59,875
[paul_moser]: too encouraging it
606
00:40:59,874 --> 00:41:01,164
[pj_wehry]: oh
607
00:40:59,975 --> 00:41:01,378
[paul_moser]: looks as if some people are going
to
608
00:41:01,404 --> 00:41:02,244
[pj_wehry]: yeah
609
00:41:01,438 --> 00:41:07,165
[paul_moser]: say sorry i don't need this and
i have a good friend who's very smart
610
00:41:08,626 --> 00:41:14,402
[paul_moser]: education is not his weakness he's his
luck if i find out i'm wrong at
611
00:41:14,442 --> 00:41:19,188
[paul_moser]: the end and that there really is
a god i'm just going to kill myself
612
00:41:19,528 --> 00:41:23,251
[paul_moser]: i don't need this i'm going to
check out and of course
613
00:41:23,073 --> 00:41:23,094
[pj_wehry]: m
614
00:41:23,552 --> 00:41:28,099
[paul_moser]: i said well really are you serious
you finally get to the end you see
615
00:41:28,140 --> 00:41:29,041
[paul_moser]: there's this good guy who
616
00:41:29,094 --> 00:41:29,724
[pj_wehry]: yeah
617
00:41:29,141 --> 00:41:31,565
[paul_moser]: has your interest in my you're checking
out
618
00:41:31,863 --> 00:41:31,884
[pj_wehry]: m
619
00:41:32,006 --> 00:41:39,416
[paul_moser]: he says yeah because i really i
really don't want that kind of shall i
620
00:41:39,516 --> 00:41:43,083
[paul_moser]: say oversight on my life so i'm
gonna i'm going to kill
621
00:41:42,986 --> 00:41:43,026
[pj_wehry]: m
622
00:41:43,143 --> 00:41:49,713
[paul_moser]: myself now yeah is he wrong is
he he's not lying that's his intention i
623
00:41:49,753 --> 00:41:54,890
[paul_moser]: know that but is he going to
wake up at some point and say i
624
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:59,323
[paul_moser]: was a fool i don't know it
i don't know so
625
00:41:59,377 --> 00:41:59,398
[pj_wehry]: m
626
00:41:59,544 --> 00:42:06,096
[paul_moser]: i can't endorse universalism but i aspire
to it i think god does too
627
00:42:10,074 --> 00:42:10,154
[pj_wehry]: and
628
00:42:10,290 --> 00:42:10,950
[paul_moser]: my
629
00:42:10,495 --> 00:42:13,882
[pj_wehry]: i think one that leads into a
question i was just about to ask but
630
00:42:14,344 --> 00:42:21,086
[pj_wehry]: this goes back to that non coercive
character right that god could make these people
631
00:42:21,227 --> 00:42:24,711
[pj_wehry]: but that's not what he's looking for
he's looking for people to be in communion
632
00:42:24,771 --> 00:42:24,931
[pj_wehry]: with
633
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,061
[paul_moser]: and then what does these people
634
00:42:27,997 --> 00:42:28,178
[pj_wehry]: god
635
00:42:28,161 --> 00:42:30,304
[paul_moser]: mean then they are no longer these
people
636
00:42:30,115 --> 00:42:30,298
[pj_wehry]: right
637
00:42:30,764 --> 00:42:31,765
[paul_moser]: in other words they
638
00:42:31,758 --> 00:42:31,779
[pj_wehry]: m
639
00:42:31,785 --> 00:42:36,654
[paul_moser]: are no longer agents separate from god
they become hogs
640
00:42:36,365 --> 00:42:36,530
[pj_wehry]: right
641
00:42:36,755 --> 00:42:38,800
[paul_moser]: and god's gear and
642
00:42:38,939 --> 00:42:39,123
[pj_wehry]: right
643
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:47,067
[paul_moser]: they're just extensions of god's that's not
that's not report or fellowship that is manipulation
644
00:42:47,808 --> 00:42:51,683
[paul_moser]: and that depersonalizes and that is not
what's going on
645
00:42:51,594 --> 00:42:52,524
[pj_wehry]: oh
646
00:42:52,805 --> 00:42:59,277
[paul_moser]: if you read the new testament or
even the hebrew bible typically that is not
647
00:42:59,357 --> 00:43:04,764
[paul_moser]: the story i mean what's this stuff
about god holding out his hands all day
648
00:43:04,884 --> 00:43:09,288
[paul_moser]: long to a disobedient people paul is
siting isaiah there in romans
649
00:43:09,690 --> 00:43:10,224
[pj_wehry]: hm
650
00:43:09,789 --> 00:43:15,187
[paul_moser]: and what's that about i mean is
that just a farce got playing games here
651
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:23,716
[paul_moser]: no paul meant that you know the
opponents of jesus got into trouble because of
652
00:43:23,756 --> 00:43:29,292
[paul_moser]: their unbelief paul says not because god
forced them romans nine is not about
653
00:43:29,133 --> 00:43:29,154
[pj_wehry]: m
654
00:43:29,393 --> 00:43:35,406
[paul_moser]: god forcing people not to believe in
god that's just unbelievable if you read romans
655
00:43:35,487 --> 00:43:42,798
[paul_moser]: ten and eleven god is seeking to
bring in the gentiles and as a result
656
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,714
[paul_moser]: the jewish people who have a problem
with jesus it's
657
00:43:47,733 --> 00:43:47,754
[pj_wehry]: m
658
00:43:47,774 --> 00:43:52,348
[paul_moser]: oppressed toward widening the tent not narrowing
it
659
00:43:54,947 --> 00:44:00,421
[pj_wehry]: and that i think as you talk
about these you know your friend who is
660
00:44:02,444 --> 00:44:07,292
[pj_wehry]: would rather kill himself than be under
any oversight or you talk about hitler you
661
00:44:07,372 --> 00:44:10,317
[pj_wehry]: mentioned at the end many theologians
662
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:09,882
[paul_moser]: yeah
663
00:44:10,618 --> 00:44:15,767
[pj_wehry]: ignore the prominent theme of divine jealousy
in their acc of divine love and i
664
00:44:15,847 --> 00:44:21,174
[pj_wehry]: think can you speak to that a
little bit as we we talk about people
665
00:44:21,274 --> 00:44:27,770
[pj_wehry]: who as we talk about the lack
of coercion right but then there's you have
666
00:44:27,830 --> 00:44:29,052
[pj_wehry]: to deal with people who choose
667
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,120
[paul_moser]: yeah
668
00:44:29,212 --> 00:44:29,332
[pj_wehry]: no
669
00:44:31,070 --> 00:44:36,159
[paul_moser]: that's right and that's a taboo topic
to try to find somebody who deals forth
670
00:44:36,259 --> 00:44:38,523
[paul_moser]: rightly with divine jealousy i think i
cite
671
00:44:38,514 --> 00:44:39,384
[pj_wehry]: oh
672
00:44:38,623 --> 00:44:39,745
[paul_moser]: four or five books where
673
00:44:39,594 --> 00:44:40,464
[pj_wehry]: yeah
674
00:44:40,326 --> 00:44:45,912
[paul_moser]: you know these big toms on gape
not a peep on divine jealousy where's the
675
00:44:45,972 --> 00:44:49,095
[paul_moser]: old testament my name is jealous his
name is
676
00:44:48,984 --> 00:44:49,004
[pj_wehry]: m
677
00:44:49,255 --> 00:44:56,925
[paul_moser]: jealous i mean what's going on there
and it's pretty clear that if you look
678
00:44:57,085 --> 00:45:06,684
[paul_moser]: at the the biblical discussion god is
not jealous against me god is jealous for
679
00:45:06,844 --> 00:45:07,846
[paul_moser]: me for
680
00:45:07,854 --> 00:45:07,874
[pj_wehry]: m
681
00:45:08,006 --> 00:45:15,298
[paul_moser]: righteousness on my behalf and this is
so very important because it explains why god
682
00:45:15,684 --> 00:45:15,967
[pj_wehry]: yeah
683
00:45:16,180 --> 00:45:22,710
[paul_moser]: not only allows havoc to be wrought
in this world but god himself wreaks havoc
684
00:45:23,512 --> 00:45:30,884
[paul_moser]: in many contexts isaiah says god creates
the est the hebrew word is sometimes translated
685
00:45:30,984 --> 00:45:37,295
[paul_moser]: evil it's not to be translated evil
in isaiah there is god's creating a kind
686
00:45:37,576 --> 00:45:40,321
[paul_moser]: of mess in the world
687
00:45:40,563 --> 00:45:40,584
[pj_wehry]: m
688
00:45:40,661 --> 00:45:43,887
[paul_moser]: to shake things up and so i
have this view of god
689
00:45:43,734 --> 00:45:44,544
[pj_wehry]: yeah
690
00:45:44,568 --> 00:45:50,538
[paul_moser]: as an agitator for righteousness god agitates
and i
691
00:45:50,529 --> 00:45:51,024
[pj_wehry]: hm
692
00:45:50,558 --> 00:45:55,587
[paul_moser]: think we've lost this dea of an
active god who wreaks havoc in the world
693
00:45:56,108 --> 00:46:00,878
[paul_moser]: to shake things up for righteousness and
so i ask where should we look for
694
00:46:00,918 --> 00:46:04,172
[paul_moser]: this reeking of havoc and i'm saying
695
00:46:04,134 --> 00:46:04,734
[pj_wehry]: yeah
696
00:46:04,473 --> 00:46:09,959
[paul_moser]: pretty much wherever you see it because
god is active trying to bring good out
697
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:17,485
[paul_moser]: of suffering out of the bad that
results god is seeking redemption and sometimes it
698
00:46:17,545 --> 00:46:21,889
[paul_moser]: comes only by resurrection sometimes prior to
it but
699
00:46:21,936 --> 00:46:22,464
[pj_wehry]: hm
700
00:46:23,050 --> 00:46:32,440
[paul_moser]: this idea of jealousy god isn't just
good god is bent on covering everything with
701
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:38,628
[paul_moser]: god's goodness god wants to paint it
all with divine righteousness and then sorry to
702
00:46:38,708 --> 00:46:42,104
[paul_moser]: say he wants to do it through
us and this
703
00:46:42,054 --> 00:46:42,074
[pj_wehry]: m
704
00:46:42,144 --> 00:46:47,192
[paul_moser]: is where the rub comes because that
means you and i must become the righteousness
705
00:46:47,252 --> 00:46:55,320
[paul_moser]: of god paul says in christ we
become god's right well that's no picnic given
706
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:55,501
[paul_moser]: where
707
00:46:55,376 --> 00:46:55,396
[pj_wehry]: m
708
00:46:55,541 --> 00:47:03,016
[paul_moser]: we start from and so there's this
huge learning transforming curve where we have to
709
00:47:03,096 --> 00:47:10,911
[paul_moser]: be re made this is what regeneration
is about being re made paul would say
710
00:47:11,572 --> 00:47:17,623
[paul_moser]: in the image of christ who is
the perfect image of god well that means
711
00:47:17,703 --> 00:47:26,232
[paul_moser]: a life some travail and frustration and
so suffering becomes get this for paul something
712
00:47:26,492 --> 00:47:33,344
[paul_moser]: we rejoice in now that just sounds
stupid we rejoice in suffering and
713
00:47:33,376 --> 00:47:33,396
[pj_wehry]: m
714
00:47:33,424 --> 00:47:39,414
[paul_moser]: paul can step back and say yes
because god's at work bringing good out of
715
00:47:39,514 --> 00:47:41,998
[paul_moser]: it fast in your seat belts because
716
00:47:41,934 --> 00:47:42,534
[pj_wehry]: yeah
717
00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:49,651
[paul_moser]: there's going to be a bumpy road
or two on the way but this idea
718
00:47:49,751 --> 00:47:56,083
[paul_moser]: of jealousy for righteousness if that's not
front and center we will understand who god
719
00:47:56,223 --> 00:48:02,578
[paul_moser]: is and how this world might be
god's world if you don't have god working
720
00:48:03,551 --> 00:48:11,431
[paul_moser]: hard setting of free agents to paint
it all with righteousness it just doesn't make
721
00:48:11,471 --> 00:48:14,376
[paul_moser]: any sense it seems like a big
cam i mean
722
00:48:14,556 --> 00:48:14,576
[pj_wehry]: m
723
00:48:14,616 --> 00:48:19,006
[paul_moser]: why didn't god just flip the switch
ten thousand years ago and clean it up
724
00:48:19,830 --> 00:48:25,920
[paul_moser]: if god is you know bringing about
things just by god's because it's co operative
725
00:48:26,521 --> 00:48:27,843
[paul_moser]: that's the very design
726
00:48:27,423 --> 00:48:27,444
[pj_wehry]: m
727
00:48:28,264 --> 00:48:32,331
[paul_moser]: why didn't god just wipe out adam
and eve but instead says you know you're
728
00:48:32,351 --> 00:48:37,471
[paul_moser]: gonna have to leave the garden i'm
going to protect the source of life you're
729
00:48:37,491 --> 00:48:41,521
[paul_moser]: going to have to learn some stuff
and so you can think of it as
730
00:48:41,601 --> 00:48:51,680
[paul_moser]: a massive uh institution for moral make
over where our co operation is vital take
731
00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:53,908
[paul_moser]: it out and nothing makes sense
732
00:49:00,344 --> 00:49:01,086
[pj_wehry]: sorry i'm just sitting
733
00:49:01,450 --> 00:49:02,051
[paul_moser]: so and so when
734
00:49:01,968 --> 00:49:02,249
[pj_wehry]: with that
735
00:49:02,151 --> 00:49:02,211
[paul_moser]: our
736
00:49:02,269 --> 00:49:02,369
[pj_wehry]: for
737
00:49:02,271 --> 00:49:02,412
[paul_moser]: big
738
00:49:02,409 --> 00:49:02,429
[pj_wehry]: a
739
00:49:02,492 --> 00:49:02,873
[paul_moser]: weakness
740
00:49:02,510 --> 00:49:02,830
[pj_wehry]: second
741
00:49:02,973 --> 00:49:03,334
[paul_moser]: becomes
742
00:49:03,492 --> 00:49:03,652
[pj_wehry]: yeah
743
00:49:03,835 --> 00:49:07,421
[paul_moser]: we don't value righteousness the way god
does
744
00:49:08,234 --> 00:49:08,376
[pj_wehry]: yeah
745
00:49:08,291 --> 00:49:13,135
[paul_moser]: we don't take it seriously the way
god now we're going to talk about love
746
00:49:14,057 --> 00:49:20,347
[paul_moser]: and it's a remarkable notice how jesus
doesn't talk about love really very much at
747
00:49:20,407 --> 00:49:23,780
[paul_moser]: all i mean he gives us a
love command and in mark's gospel here's the
748
00:49:23,821 --> 00:49:31,142
[paul_moser]: first command he was to jesus is
more bent on a kind of righteousness because
749
00:49:31,703 --> 00:49:38,435
[paul_moser]: god's righteousness includes love righteous love if
you take away that qualifyer you get into
750
00:49:38,495 --> 00:49:43,984
[paul_moser]: big trouble because god becomes a kind
of romantic cream puff people get all romantic
751
00:49:44,244 --> 00:49:50,560
[paul_moser]: and you say stop that that's not
what god is like god is holy god
752
00:49:50,620 --> 00:49:56,255
[paul_moser]: is righteous and out of that comes
and here's what a gap is good will
753
00:49:56,376 --> 00:50:00,557
[paul_moser]: for others that's what a gap is
but that good will
754
00:50:00,744 --> 00:50:01,010
[pj_wehry]: oh
755
00:50:01,039 --> 00:50:03,728
[paul_moser]: comes out of god's righteous character
756
00:50:03,444 --> 00:50:04,494
[pj_wehry]: oh
757
00:50:04,410 --> 00:50:06,011
[paul_moser]: and well so we
758
00:50:05,934 --> 00:50:06,663
[pj_wehry]: yeah
759
00:50:06,071 --> 00:50:11,176
[paul_moser]: don't take jealousy seriously because we're kind
of half baked about righteous yea it would
760
00:50:11,216 --> 00:50:16,592
[paul_moser]: be nice if things were righteous but
you know so we not really we don't
761
00:50:16,672 --> 00:50:16,873
[paul_moser]: care
762
00:50:16,914 --> 00:50:17,694
[pj_wehry]: oh
763
00:50:17,674 --> 00:50:24,505
[paul_moser]: that wasn't the attitude of jesus he
was burning with righteousness and that's shown at
764
00:50:24,625 --> 00:50:31,757
[paul_moser]: his at the z for god's house
zeal the hebrew word for zealous is the
765
00:50:31,858 --> 00:50:37,607
[paul_moser]: same there in the in the original
use of it in the hebrew bible as
766
00:50:37,807 --> 00:50:41,677
[paul_moser]: jealous zealous and jealous they're the same
word and
767
00:50:42,274 --> 00:50:42,804
[pj_wehry]: hm
768
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:51,074
[paul_moser]: he shows that at the temple when
he kicks out the sales people overturns the
769
00:50:51,114 --> 00:50:57,479
[paul_moser]: table and they say zeal for your
house has consumed me so what jesus is
770
00:50:57,539 --> 00:51:05,394
[paul_moser]: doing is reflecting god's passionate righteousness i
don't think the church has that today i
771
00:51:05,434 --> 00:51:05,715
[paul_moser]: think it's
772
00:51:05,635 --> 00:51:05,655
[pj_wehry]: m
773
00:51:05,815 --> 00:51:07,397
[paul_moser]: lost i think it's
774
00:51:07,369 --> 00:51:07,409
[pj_wehry]: m
775
00:51:08,478 --> 00:51:19,133
[paul_moser]: i think it's water down water down
the conception of yale and yeas son jesus
776
00:51:19,433 --> 00:51:22,119
[paul_moser]: i think i think that's been the
big tragedy
777
00:51:24,046 --> 00:51:28,935
[pj_wehry]: and as i'm sitting here one of
the especially in our society one of the
778
00:51:28,975 --> 00:51:32,739
[pj_wehry]: first questions that comes to mind is
why can't god just leave me alone right
779
00:51:33,039 --> 00:51:34,020
[pj_wehry]: and the answer is
780
00:51:33,900 --> 00:51:34,143
[paul_moser]: uh
781
00:51:34,140 --> 00:51:40,128
[pj_wehry]: is that it's better to live with
god and in this case with righteousness because
782
00:51:40,148 --> 00:51:41,691
[pj_wehry]: you can't live with god without righteousness
783
00:51:43,050 --> 00:51:43,070
[paul_moser]: m
784
00:51:43,184 --> 00:51:45,167
[pj_wehry]: the other answer of course is that
you're only
785
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:45,280
[paul_moser]: oh
786
00:51:45,247 --> 00:51:47,351
[pj_wehry]: sustained only created and sustained by
787
00:51:47,429 --> 00:51:47,550
[paul_moser]: yeah
788
00:51:47,451 --> 00:51:52,179
[pj_wehry]: god that's also part of it but
what what comes to mind even you're talking
789
00:51:52,199 --> 00:52:01,547
[pj_wehry]: about this that god is this agitator
righteousness is i we see people who are
790
00:52:01,647 --> 00:52:07,537
[pj_wehry]: not agitated for righteousness and those are
the people that christ actually tells us to
791
00:52:07,657 --> 00:52:12,826
[pj_wehry]: pity the rich man cannot be saved
well says it is harder for him to
792
00:52:12,846 --> 00:52:16,192
[pj_wehry]: be saved than a camel to go
through the eye of a needle because they
793
00:52:16,353 --> 00:52:20,841
[pj_wehry]: do not sense their lack and that
is what god is in his jealousy is
794
00:52:20,921 --> 00:52:21,662
[pj_wehry]: calling us to
795
00:52:24,591 --> 00:52:24,973
[paul_moser]: that's right
796
00:52:24,984 --> 00:52:25,044
[pj_wehry]: am
797
00:52:25,054 --> 00:52:25,114
[paul_moser]: in
798
00:52:25,124 --> 00:52:25,144
[pj_wehry]: i
799
00:52:25,174 --> 00:52:25,315
[paul_moser]: other
800
00:52:25,264 --> 00:52:25,525
[pj_wehry]: tracking
801
00:52:25,375 --> 00:52:25,577
[paul_moser]: words
802
00:52:25,545 --> 00:52:27,369
[pj_wehry]: with you there yeah i think sorry
i
803
00:52:27,350 --> 00:52:27,650
[paul_moser]: indeed
804
00:52:27,409 --> 00:52:27,890
[pj_wehry]: should have asked
805
00:52:27,811 --> 00:52:28,091
[paul_moser]: indeed
806
00:52:28,050 --> 00:52:28,852
[pj_wehry]: my yeah
807
00:52:28,772 --> 00:52:33,580
[paul_moser]: no no indeed and and notice if
you if you were to ask jesus he
808
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:38,909
[paul_moser]: would say there is no real life
without righteousness that would be losing your soul
809
00:52:39,590 --> 00:52:39,771
[paul_moser]: uh
810
00:52:39,834 --> 00:52:39,854
[pj_wehry]: m
811
00:52:40,151 --> 00:52:41,874
[paul_moser]: to gain the world and
812
00:52:41,965 --> 00:52:42,167
[pj_wehry]: right
813
00:52:42,074 --> 00:52:49,106
[paul_moser]: he's got this image of the only
life worth living is the righteousness of his
814
00:52:49,206 --> 00:52:56,358
[paul_moser]: father and he is bent on showing
this all the way up through gassemini and
815
00:52:56,418 --> 00:53:01,146
[paul_moser]: i regard gassemini as his signature moment
because there he's telling
816
00:53:00,993 --> 00:53:01,014
[pj_wehry]: m
817
00:53:01,226 --> 00:53:06,523
[paul_moser]: us who he really is in relation
to his father i mean in gasemini it's
818
00:53:06,664 --> 00:53:11,936
[paul_moser]: a ba father and then whose will
is first well i wanted it this way
819
00:53:12,096 --> 00:53:16,123
[paul_moser]: but i'm going to i'm going to
go for your righteousness
820
00:53:15,954 --> 00:53:16,215
[pj_wehry]: oh
821
00:53:16,623 --> 00:53:21,472
[paul_moser]: and i'm going to display it to
the world by this self give in event
822
00:53:22,133 --> 00:53:27,702
[paul_moser]: in jerusalem this doesn't look good for
me i'm not sure how it's going to
823
00:53:28,503 --> 00:53:32,851
[paul_moser]: work out in detail and so you
can get the cry of derelection in mark
824
00:53:32,806 --> 00:53:32,827
[pj_wehry]: m
825
00:53:32,971 --> 00:53:33,833
[paul_moser]: and matthew where
826
00:53:33,723 --> 00:53:33,744
[pj_wehry]: m
827
00:53:34,595 --> 00:53:41,634
[paul_moser]: my god my god is still my
god but what's going on here why have
828
00:53:41,544 --> 00:53:41,845
[pj_wehry]: oh
829
00:53:41,694 --> 00:53:42,976
[paul_moser]: you abandoned
830
00:53:43,009 --> 00:53:43,190
[pj_wehry]: oh
831
00:53:43,016 --> 00:53:43,597
[paul_moser]: me and
832
00:53:43,591 --> 00:53:43,691
[pj_wehry]: ah
833
00:53:43,657 --> 00:53:49,147
[paul_moser]: so he did feel abandoned and we
know that ultimately god didn't abandon them he
834
00:53:49,267 --> 00:53:55,719
[paul_moser]: raised him and exalted and paul says
in philippians because of his obedience paul says
835
00:53:55,584 --> 00:53:55,604
[pj_wehry]: m
836
00:53:55,820 --> 00:54:02,716
[paul_moser]: because he has given up his life
at the cross so i think the importance
837
00:54:02,997 --> 00:54:13,707
[paul_moser]: of righteousness as something we uminternalize something
we defined by is what jesus is all
838
00:54:13,767 --> 00:54:19,241
[paul_moser]: about i think that's what the new
birth is all about where god comes to
839
00:54:19,361 --> 00:54:26,797
[paul_moser]: people and works in their lives in
such a way that they reflect who god
840
00:54:26,978 --> 00:54:34,083
[paul_moser]: is and i think when that happens
um you have a game changer because no
841
00:54:34,263 --> 00:54:40,424
[paul_moser]: longer is it about am i listening
to this law or that law am i
842
00:54:40,524 --> 00:54:46,611
[paul_moser]: following this ritual or that ritual it's
about who i am in relation to this
843
00:54:46,712 --> 00:54:49,817
[paul_moser]: god but we'll never get there i
claim unless
844
00:54:49,734 --> 00:54:49,754
[pj_wehry]: m
845
00:54:49,917 --> 00:54:54,985
[paul_moser]: we stay in moral report this is
not a kind of do these three steps
846
00:54:55,404 --> 00:54:55,666
[pj_wehry]: yah
847
00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,389
[paul_moser]: you've succeeded now you're there
848
00:54:57,543 --> 00:54:57,947
[pj_wehry]: h yeah
849
00:54:58,210 --> 00:55:01,594
[paul_moser]: no it's more of a work in
progress and paul talks about
850
00:55:01,644 --> 00:55:01,866
[pj_wehry]: oh
851
00:55:01,655 --> 00:55:08,062
[paul_moser]: this when he asks whether he has
arrived and it's inflipient no of course not
852
00:55:08,542 --> 00:55:16,502
[paul_moser]: he's an ongoing project but it's in
that moral report that's where the eternal life
853
00:55:16,683 --> 00:55:21,756
[paul_moser]: is john's gospel even gets this when
it says this is eternal life to know
854
00:55:22,077 --> 00:55:29,745
[paul_moser]: you and the one you sent to
know you there that means this inter active
855
00:55:30,166 --> 00:55:36,857
[paul_moser]: relationship until we put that front and
center i think we're missing the mark and
856
00:55:37,158 --> 00:55:43,746
[paul_moser]: the only question we come the end
where should we look for real evidence that
857
00:55:43,827 --> 00:55:48,134
[paul_moser]: god is actually doing this stuff because
so far you might say well you know
858
00:55:48,174 --> 00:55:49,276
[paul_moser]: you've got a nice fairy
859
00:55:49,134 --> 00:55:49,315
[pj_wehry]: yeah
860
00:55:49,376 --> 00:55:55,286
[paul_moser]: tale there but it really does free
of what i need to take it seriously
861
00:55:55,626 --> 00:55:56,448
[paul_moser]: and i want to say
862
00:55:56,876 --> 00:55:56,896
[pj_wehry]: m
863
00:55:56,908 --> 00:56:02,458
[paul_moser]: no it doesn't if you take the
time to look within and see how your
864
00:56:03,039 --> 00:56:08,565
[paul_moser]: more looks eperience really is in other
words shut up for a minute and pay
865
00:56:08,645 --> 00:56:09,145
[paul_moser]: attention
866
00:56:08,904 --> 00:56:09,125
[pj_wehry]: yeah
867
00:56:09,826 --> 00:56:12,229
[paul_moser]: you will see this
868
00:56:12,273 --> 00:56:12,294
[pj_wehry]: m
869
00:56:13,110 --> 00:56:19,486
[paul_moser]: challenge to be convicted in conscience and
by the way that's the promise john's gospel
870
00:56:19,627 --> 00:56:24,855
[paul_moser]: gives for the departure of jesus the
spirit will come and he will convict you
871
00:56:25,496 --> 00:56:30,571
[paul_moser]: of and that gives the list of
righteousness i mean what's that about on victor
872
00:56:30,611 --> 00:56:34,239
[paul_moser]: of righteousness it's about what we've been
talking about that
873
00:56:34,416 --> 00:56:34,601
[pj_wehry]: right
874
00:56:35,682 --> 00:56:41,262
[paul_moser]: this is how god brings god's own
character into a human life and so you
875
00:56:41,282 --> 00:56:47,132
[paul_moser]: don't need the arguments of the philosophers
you don't need all the abstract stuff you
876
00:56:47,172 --> 00:56:53,308
[paul_moser]: need candor and you need something like
courage and loyalty to whatever goodness
877
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:53,754
[pj_wehry]: hm
878
00:56:54,011 --> 00:56:59,826
[paul_moser]: is presented to you even a child
can have that a ten year old
879
00:57:00,153 --> 00:57:00,174
[pj_wehry]: m
880
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,947
[paul_moser]: and have that kind of stuff and
so the philosophers become just a kind of
881
00:57:05,107 --> 00:57:10,837
[paul_moser]: afterthought let them write their homes let
them go off unto these various paths that
882
00:57:11,017 --> 00:57:12,339
[paul_moser]: isn't where the action is
883
00:57:13,464 --> 00:57:13,808
[pj_wehry]: yeah
884
00:57:13,550 --> 00:57:18,408
[paul_moser]: because that isn't where the spirit of
god is working in conscience
885
00:57:20,595 --> 00:57:24,446
[pj_wehry]: dr moser i can't think of a
better way to finish today thank you so
886
00:57:24,546 --> 00:57:26,652
[pj_wehry]: much it's been an absolute joy having
you on today
887
00:57:28,951 --> 00:57:30,196
[paul_moser]: i've enjoyed it thank you p j
888
00:57:30,534 --> 00:57:30,761
[pj_wehry]: oh
