Full Transcript for 🌷✨ Easter Special: Chasing Faith with Dorothy Lucey ✨🌷

just grown. 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.719 So is it the same service like repeat or are they different? 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:45.120 I don't know, I've never gone to both. 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:46.800 I'm not that good. 00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:48.159 That's funny. 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:58.000 So there's an Easter tradition here in Palm Springs that I just realized that uh on the um O'Donnell golf course, there's a sunrise service, and it's been going on since 1917. 00:02:58.400 --> 00:02:59.039 Oh, wow. 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:00.240 I thought that was kind of cool. 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:02.080 It was started by Nellie Kaufman. 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.719 She was one of the city founders and uh founded The Desert Inn back in, you know, before that. 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:08.000 But I thought that was pretty cool. 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.960 I didn't realize it'd have been going on for over a hundred years. 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.599 And are you gonna uh get up and go? 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:14.960 We'll see. 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:18.479 I take that as a no. 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:26.240 But this is a you know, I am I am always at least five minutes late for church, so you miss one song. 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:29.039 So never any judgment. 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:34.000 So today we get to talk to someone who I just adore. 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:43.120 Thank you for indulging me, Mike Morgan, who is a pastor at Beller Presbyterian, which, if you are ever in LA, it is a gorgeous church. 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:51.599 Um, but for a long time he was a youth pastor at Malibu Press, where I went, and he was my son's youth pastor, so he has a very special place in my heart. 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:52.479 Yes. 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.039 Um Malibu Press, you're right, is a huge church. 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:56.240 I mean, the Reagans went there. 00:03:58.800 --> 00:03:59.039 Yeah. 00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:05.280 Yeah, that that's a fancy, somewhat celebrity church, but a beautiful, beautiful spiritual place too. 00:04:05.520 --> 00:04:06.080 Yes. 00:04:06.879 --> 00:04:12.800 I think I I I went to a funeral there, but I can't remember what it was, but that's the only time I've been there. 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:13.759 But it's a beautiful space. 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:15.599 Yeah, it's it's a stunning church. 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:19.199 And um, I love to go hear Mike preach. 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:23.600 And today he has, I think, a really lovely Easter message for us. 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:28.240 So, Mike Morgan, haven't seen you in way too long. 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:29.199 Seriously. 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:29.839 So long. 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:31.120 So great to see you. 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:35.279 Full disclosure, Mike was my son's youth pastor. 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:43.360 And uh okay, I tend to think that my son was an angel, but you can enough time has passed that you can now tell me the truth. 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:46.399 Oh, come

on, Nash is amazing. 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.800 I just can't say enough about your son. 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:50.319 He's such a great kid. 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:51.120 I mean, kid. 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:52.240 He's not a kid anymore. 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:52.879 He's a grown man. 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:54.720 He's a married man. 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:55.839 A married man. 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.040 That just blows my mind. 00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.399 I can't, I can still, you know, he would hate me saying this. 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.879 So I'm but I have still like throwing him in the pool, you know, like it's just this. 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.120 I know I can just picture him as a teenager. 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:07.839 He's awesome. 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:09.439 But uh no, he's a grown man now. 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:10.720 So he's a married man. 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:12.319 Well, I think I miss him. 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:16.639 What you did as a youth pastor was you made it fun. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:18.319 You made it an adventure. 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:24.240 I mean, when I got confirmed, I think, you know, being Catholic, I think the priests sort of slap me not hard, but slap me. 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:25.600 That's just what they do. 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:29.199 You took them on a whitewater rafting trip when they were getting confirmed. 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.759 Yeah, it's a little bit different of an experience. 00:05:31.920 --> 00:05:32.240 Sure. 00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.959 I mean, both are valuable, but yeah, it's a little bit different. 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:38.879 I mean, to be able to work with young people is an incredible thing. 00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:43.439 You know, I think that uh we need a lot of compassionate adults in kids' lives. 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:45.759 And I think that it's just it's such a gift. 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:55.360 Uh the fact that you would entrust me with your son, which you might want to rethink about that, you know, in the sense of like, I don't know how he turned out okay. 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:56.879 He turned out all right. 00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:58.720 And he got back safely, you know. 00:05:58.879 --> 00:05:59.279 That was good. 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:00.639 You were young too. 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:02.240 I know, that's what I'm saying. 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.920 I'm like, wow, how old was I? 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.720 And I took your son on a white water rafting trip. 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:09.360 Uh that's all right. 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:18.480 And and I I think Jason knows this, but um my son was being bar mitzvah because my husband's Jewish, and then he wanted to go to Christian camp with you. 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:22.000 So of course we moved the bar mitzvah so he could go to Christian camp. 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.639 So I've either exposed him to everything or screwed him up. 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.519 I don't I don't know which I love it. 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:32.959 It's so rich the environment that you've raised him in, you know, for him to have that perspective. 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:34.800 And I love your family. 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:36.480 I love uh what you're doing here. 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:37.279 I love this podcast. 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:37.759 This is great. 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:38.480 Oh, thank you. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.279 It must be rewarding to to see kids grow. 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:45.759 Because you you probably get them, what, 13, 14, and you see them all the way through like high school. 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:51.600 And that must that growth period, that's a huge growth period for people, and I think it's must be very rewarding for you. 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:52.560 Yeah, it is. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:55.040 It's a massive, uh, very important time, right? 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:56.000 I mean, could you imagine? 00:06:56.079 --> 00:07:05.360 I I r being reminded of myself when I was 13 years old, uh, how insecure I was, how awkward I was, how self-conscious I was, you know. 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:08.720 And you're forming your identity, you're forming like, who am I in the world? 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.839 Do people the big question is like, do people like me? 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:19.360 Uh it's, you know, and to be able to say to somebody, I mean, it's easy for Nash, I can just look at him and go, oh my gosh, who doesn't like you? 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.360 He's just such a likable guy. 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:28.560 But um, you know, for kids are coming with that question and they're not getting that answered, or they're getting an answer in a lot of different ways. 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:37.040 And so for uh compassionate adults to be able to see young people and say, man, not only do I love you, I like you. 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:38.000 I like who you are. 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:39.680 I want to, you know, spend time with you. 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:40.399 I want to know you. 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:44.959 I want to ask you questions and hear your what are you thinking about these days? 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:46.480 Like, what are you processing? 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:51.279 Uh, to be able to sit with people, young people specifically, and give them space for that. 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:57.680 Um, you know, and then they they open up, you know, and so it's just an important time of life. 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.800 Uh I only get to see them for a small period of time from that. 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:04.639 It does, you know, four years or six years if I'm working with them in middle school. 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:12.720 Uh, but then I'm so curious about what's going on college and post-college and married life, and uh it's a pretty wild experience. 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:13.600 Yeah. 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:20.399 You know, um, just hearing you say the word love, I've been listening to the series that you're doing on the you Bible

version. 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.639 By the way, if anybody needs a free Bible app, it is amazing. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:25.040 Yeah. 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:31.120 And you speak so beautifully uh about love, but I feel like we're in a moment where everybody hates each other. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:33.840 I laugh. 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:36.399 That's not yes, you're it does feel that way, doesn't it? 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:36.799 Yeah. 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:37.919 Sometimes. 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:38.559 Yeah. 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:50.159 Well, it is one of those things where uh, you know, we love people who uh look like us and think like us and act like us and believe the same things we believe, and um that's easy, you know. 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:51.279 That's not real. 00:08:51.519 --> 00:09:05.200 Um even what kind of Jesus kind of love is, you know, if you think about how God loves us, uh it's we we didn't look and think and act and believe all those things, and yet God still demonstrated his love towards us. 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.200 So uh to be the church, I think, in this season is vital. 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:15.200 We need uh people really demonstrating what does love look like with people that are different than me. 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:16.960 People that don't agree with me. 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:20.720 Easy to say, uh really hard to live out. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:29.440 I saw something that you said um about we're not present with each other anymore. 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:36.960 I don't know if it's because we're on our phones or we're just distracted, but that that is a source of love, just really being present. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:38.720 Absolutely. 00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:43.360 I mean, think the gift, the gift of presence, the gift of listening. 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:46.720 Uh listening not to win an argument. 00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:55.759 Uh you know, if we could learn to listen well uh and not listen to figure out how I'm gonna respond to whatever it is you're saying. 00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:05.919 Uh to give that gift of space and time and presence, um, really seeking to understand rather than to be understood. 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:10.080 Uh listening is such a gift right now. 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:15.759 It cannot be understated how important it is, and yet how seldom we do it. 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:27.679 It's it's so hard to listen to someone whom you might disagree with and not get flooded, not get hooked, not want to react and respond and prove you're right, and all those things, you know. 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:29.039 Uh I could be the only one. 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:30.480 Am I the only one that has that experience? 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.759 I think this is like a common thing, right? 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.960 And so that that is such a gift. 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:40.799 And to walk away feeling known. 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:42.639 What a beautiful thing. 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:44.320 I think that that's a beautiful thing. 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:44.879 Yeah. 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:48.080 What a needed thing in our time right now, in our culture, for sure. 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:52.559 That's what I love about this podcast is doing listening to people and learning things. 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:56.799 And you know, every week I take away something different from from someone new I met. 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:02.159 You're a second Presbyterian minister, but you have very different We're talking about very different things. 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:04.559 Oh, that's fun. 00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:10.080 I think other than when I'm interviewing somebody, so this is good listening experience for me. 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.320 I think I kind of do what you just said. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.159 I I listen with it with a thought of what's my response. 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.759 Even when I'm and I know now you're working with adults, not kids so much. 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.000 And I I'm sure you're doing grief counseling. 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:30.480 And I I just I probably need to learn how to really listen without thinking of what I'm gonna say next. 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:43.840 And as you're thinking about what you're gonna say, uh, if you are thinking about what you're gonna say, uh there's that was that um skill of the yes and, you know, a lot of us respond with a no but, you know. 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.799 And so this is like Hollywood acting kind of improv training or something. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.360 But I think it's such an important skill to learn to be able to say yes and to somebody. 00:11:53.519 --> 00:12:11.840 And so if you're listening for agreement and you're listening to contribute in a positive way to the conversation, as opposed to looking to refute and to pick apart and to dismantle um someone's position, um, I think that that, you know, there's a very different end result that can come from that. 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:18.639 And I think the both of you are you're doing that every single time you interview somebody, you're looking and listening and yes anding. 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:30.080 Uh, what a great skill for us to be able to start to live into as a people, uh, not just for interviews, but just to how can I, is there anything in this that I can say yes to? 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:35.600 And then how can I contribute in a positive way to the rest of the conversation? 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:37.919 I think that would be a great, great thing. 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:38.720 Yeah. 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:42.240 Um, man, there's a lot there, but I think that is a form of love, isn't it? 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.759 Uh just to be able to offer compassionate space. 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:54.000 Um when you do get hooked, because you will, when you do get flooded, because you will, uh, to not react out of that. 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.480 Uh we've done series at our church talking about the first

response. 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.279 What's our first response when you're angry? 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.399 You know, what's your first response when you feel overwhelmed? 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:07.519 What's your first response uh when you've been wronged? 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.279 You know, all those things. 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:14.879 And uh oftentimes it's like, I can tell you what my first response is, you know, I want to fight. 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.960 Or I want to flee. 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.559 I just want to abandon the relationship. 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:19.279 I want to be out. 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:20.879 I want to leave the table. 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:32.320 And to offer that way of saying, I'm staying at the table, I'm listening deeply, I'm holding my reaction, you know, as uh people of faith. 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.480 We're gonna go to God in prayer. 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:40.480 And uh, even in the moment, like, oh my gosh, Lord, you know how I want to respond right now. 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.000 Please hold my tongue. 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.360 Uh, you know? 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:47.200 And then uh to be able to respond in love. 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:52.159 I that again is something that the Holy Spirit can strengthen us in. 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:57.759 Uh it's not something that is my natural response, uh, unfortunately. 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.919 Uh, but the good news is that it doesn't have to be that God's there to help me with that. 00:14:02.000 --> 00:14:04.399 So I think it's a gift for sure. 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:12.080 I think sometimes I always want to be helpful, and then maybe it's not helpful to be trying so hard to be helpful. 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:13.759 Does that make sense? 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:14.639 Well, yeah. 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.200 Tell me more about what when you think about being helpful. 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:19.279 You tell me more about what you're saying there. 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:25.200 Well, I think what I probably need to do is ask the Holy Spirit for a little advice because I want to give advice. 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.919 I want I want to make this person feel better. 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:29.759 Yeah, I want to help solve the problem. 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:32.960 And maybe by jumping in, I'm I'm not really helping. 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.159 That's really good. 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.720 You know, I I appreciate you saying that, Dorothy. 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:38.480 I am guilty of that. 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:42.000 Uh at least that's what my wife would say that I'm guilty of it for sure. 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.480 Because I, you know, she'll share something with me. 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.799 She's like, I'm not asking you to fix it. 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.039 I'm not asking you to solve it. 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.639 I just want you to listen. 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.960 And I'm like, oh, but I'm really good at trying to fix stuff. 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:56.480 Let me fix it. 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:59.840 Uh but that's not necessarily demonstrating love. 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.480 I think it is, you know, oh, look, I fixed it for you. 00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.279 Therefore, I love you. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:10.080 She's like, no, just listen to me and be present with me and hold the space with me, you know. 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:11.600 So you're not alone. 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.960 Uh I'm definitely with you in that for sure. 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:19.279 Okay, your wife, who A, has the best hair in all of LA, which is saying something. 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:20.639 Thank you for that. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:20.960 Yes. 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.159 She was beautiful. 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:24.080 Such a gorgeous woman. 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.960 And also on her way, is she is she graduating? 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:36.080 Is she Well, yeah, she's graduated from seminary and she's under uh the process right now of ordination. 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:40.399 And so within our tradition, there's a long process. 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:45.759 And uh so she's undergoing that, but she's under care of our session and just discerning. 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:47.120 God, what do you have for me? 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:55.120 You know, she's a really talented preacher, she's uh wonderful counselor, um, meeting with people, talk about holding space for people. 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:57.759 Oh my gosh, she's incredible in that way. 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.039 Uh, she's a riot, she loves to have fun. 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:04.720 Uh, you know, she would love to be uh with the two of you. 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:06.480 She likes to be on the dance floor. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.559 People, when when I officiate a wedding, they don't know what to do with us. 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:12.639 They really have no clue what to do with us. 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:17.759 Because, you know, like some people hire people to get on the dance floor to start the party. 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.120 They don't need to with us. 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.600 They're like, oh, didn't you just officiate the wedding? 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:22.879 I'm like, yeah, we're dancing. 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:23.919 Like this, let's go. 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:24.799 This is fun. 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:28.399 Like, so she and I um we have a riot. 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:30.159 We just are have so much fun together. 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:35.600 But yeah, she's incredible, beautiful, talented, smart, um, all the things, yeah. 00:16:36.080 --> 00:16:37.919 Are you guys gonna work together? 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:39.279 Well, we do currently. 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:41.840 So we currently serve in the same community. 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:53.200 Uh, and yeah, we could we just, you know, it's one of those one plus one equals three things uh where we and we don't want to serve in two different

communities, you know. 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:59.120 That'd be hard to put roots down if you're both kind of investing in two different communities. 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:05.279 So, you know, that's one of the gifts that we have right now in the community that we serve in, is that we get to do this together. 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:08.559 Uh, we're in very different environments oftentimes, right? 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:18.240 Um there's wisdom in that when a husband and wife are working in the same uh context, uh, to have like no one's reporting to each other, you know, those kinds of things. 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:23.759 Um, but man, we really enjoy ministry and what you're doing right now, this is our life. 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:29.119 Like we come home and we're like, we should just record this because we are always talking about faith. 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.400 We're always talking about life and how those two things intersect. 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:38.480 And um so yeah, to be able to do ministry with my wife is just incredible. 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.480 Uh, as she's a preacher, as she's a teacher, as she's a leader. 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.920 Um, to be able to serve alongside her is a huge gift. 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:46.240 Yeah. 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:49.680 Do you do uh premarital counseling together? 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:53.599 Uh, you know, we have done a little bit of that in the past. 00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.400 Uh, like we'll maybe facilitate a panel conversation or something like that in our premarital counseling. 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.359 Uh typically we do it individually. 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:08.240 Um, but yeah, you know, and we do post-marital counseling together too, you know? 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.359 It's like you do the premarital, but then you have your first year and you're like, okay, come on back. 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:20.640 Uh what's the biggest, what's the most important piece of uh advice or guidance do you offer a couple? 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.200 Oh my goodness, Jason, what a great question. 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.519 Uh it's a really great question. 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.160 Most important piece of advice. 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:33.680 Uh, you know, you're you're not marrying the person to change the person, I think is one of them. 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:45.440 You know, uh yeah, you are saying yes to the person for who they are today, not who they're going to be, knowing that we all change and we all grow and all those things. 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.920 Uh, but it's not yes uh but or yes when, uh it's yes now. 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:54.799 And we're gonna, oh my goodness. 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:55.440 Right? 00:18:55.920 --> 00:19:02.559 We're all married, so we know like the first year you're like, wait a minute, you do what? 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:07.519 And you don't load the dishwasher how, and you don't push your drawers in all the way. 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.880 Like, what is going on? 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:09.920 Why is this? 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:15.599 Um, that sh sheds a little bit of light into my uh idiosyncrasies. 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:20.640 But uh I think that those kinds of things are wow, I didn't know this about you. 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.160 Instead of being like, oh my gosh, I didn't know this. 00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:31.039 It's like, how do we have an attitude of discovery and appreciation and wanting to learn? 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:38.480 I can't say that I live this out all the time, but I want to, I want to continue to discover who my spouse is, you know. 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:44.400 Uh so never lose sight of that is something that's really important uh in marriage. 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.880 Now, that's not my um, you know, spiritual advice that I would give. 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:52.319 I think that's just uh the relational advice that I would give. 00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:58.079 Uh, and you know, that there's the spiritual side of things is you're not in this alone. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.519 And so you don't have to live as though you're alone. 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:05.680 You're also not going to the person saying, Do you love me? 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.880 And you're not looking for that answer in that person. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:15.759 You are going to that person as one who's already loved, and that you can then bring that love to that person. 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:18.160 If you're constantly asking, Am I lovable? 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:18.799 Am I lovable? 00:20:18.880 --> 00:20:19.359 Do you love me? 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:20.319 Do you love me? 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:28.240 Uh that's you're then going to be trying to get that from the person as opposed to infusing that love into the relationship. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.559 I saw something you said about um we can't grow without a foundation. 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:39.839 Like everything needs a foundation. 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:43.519 And I heard you say, and I thought this was so beautiful, that the nails are really gratitude. 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.839 Yeah, there's a there's a foundation from which we grow from. 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.559 And so we've all had different foundations. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:58.480 So, Jason, you know, uh, you have come from a Baptist background, and that was a foundation that was laid for you. 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:03.359 And I'm sure that there's things within that foundation that you could look back and say, I appreciate that. 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.160 And I'm sure there's some things from that foundation you'd say, I might change that, you know. 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:12.880 Um, and you have, you've made some different decisions, you're part of a new community, you know. 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.160 So those are all things that you've you have a foundation. 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:18.799 So we can say we we are grateful for that

foundation. 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.599 I think it's important from where we start. 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:35.200 So, for example, my this devotional that I have uh through you version, the Bible app, uh, if you don't, like you said, if you don't have the Bible app, uh it's got a billion downloads, like one billion downloads, unique, which is crazy. 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:40.319 But um the compelled by love is the devotional. 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:45.359 And the title's intentional because that's the foundation from which everything comes from. 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.839 Uh think about your faith journey. 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:50.000 If you're uh in Lent, right? 00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:51.279 We're in a season of Lent. 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:59.759 Uh if we're refraining from chocolate or uh alcohol or from whatever it is, so that we can get. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:10.880 God's approval in our life, then we are trying to, we are compelled not by God's love, we're compelled to try to earn God's love. 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:12.000 Does that make sense? 00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:18.160 So the foundation of, am I love by God is an extremely important foundation to start from. 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:29.440 And if we don't get that right, then we're always going to be striving and fighting and trying to demonstrate and prove that we're lovable and that God, you know, do you love me? 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.880 And asking that question all the time. 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:34.319 And God's like, hey, just rest. 00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.559 Rest in the fact that I'm that I love you. 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:47.759 And then from that place, live your life from a place of being loved, that that foundation of being loved and see what comes from that, right? 00:22:47.920 --> 00:23:00.319 What grows out of that is vastly different than what grows from a place of fear or of worry or of anxiety or um of constantly being like, is God gonna zap me? 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.480 I think he's just angry at me all the time. 00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:06.240 Vastly different things grow from that foundation. 00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:09.759 Um so that's what I was trying to communicate in that devotional. 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.119 Boy, how do you get people to just settle into that? 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.039 I guess again, it's presence if they're really listening and taking it in. 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:20.079 Yeah. 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:20.480 Yeah. 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:28.240 How do you you know it's a rewiring, it's uh receiving um before we do anything. 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.440 God, uh the the creator of the universe loves me? 00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:40.559 Like um that's kind of been the human question for a long time. 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:46.480 And we've been looking for that answer in in a lot of different ways. 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:54.000 And that's where I think you know, yeah, Jesus comes into play and says, Look, I really want you to know

something. 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.799 That question you've been asking all along. 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:01.759 I I really want you to walk away, not wondering anymore whether or not God loves you. 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:02.640 I love you. 00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:07.200 Now how do you experience that love? 00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039 I think that comes through people. 00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:21.839 I think that comes through community, I think that comes through what we've talked about already in this of demonstrating presence and listening, but not just to say, oh my gosh, I feel loved by Dorothy. 00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:25.039 Uh I feel loved by God through Dorothy. 00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.519 God is using Dorothy to demonstrate God's love towards me. 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:30.640 And I receive that. 00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.200 I receive it from Dorothy, but I also receive it from God. 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:38.640 I'm not gonna discredit that and dismiss that as it's only a human experience. 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.920 No, God has graced me with the community that I'm in. 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.440 And so the love that I receive from that community, uh I receive as the love of God in my life. 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:50.319 Um, yeah. 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:54.720 So those are some of the things that are a shift, right? 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.119 It's a it's a shift in thinking. 00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:58.240 Yeah. 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:00.240 I heard that and I felt that. 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:03.279 Well beautiful. 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.119 Did you grow up in Southern California? 00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:06.160 I did, yeah. 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:07.839 I grew up in San Diego. 00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:09.680 I'm now living in Los Angeles. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.200 Um and like you guys, I'm well, I'm a kaleidoscope of Christianity, is how I like to say it. 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:21.599 Um I used to refer to myself as a Christian mutt, but I felt like that was derogatory or something. 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.400 Uh but you know, the Baptist, I'm Baptist General Conference, so that was my upbringing. 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:30.559 Wesleyan, uh non-denominational four square influences. 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:32.640 And you're like, how did you become a Presbyterian? 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:38.000 Oh anyway, yeah, it's been a journey. 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.640 Um, but uh now where are you, Jason? 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:42.240 Right now, you're in Tennessee, is that right? 00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:43.440 No, I'm in Palm Springs. 00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.359 Oh, okay, great. 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:47.680 Now, did you where where were you raised? 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.599 In Arkansas, Southern Baptist. 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.279 And then I went to Congregational Church, UCC, in my youth. 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:53.920 Okay. 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.599 And once my career got started, I kind of fell away from it. 00:25:57.759 --> 00:25:59.039 But yeah. 00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.920 Yeah, well, and then Dorothy, you were raised Catholic. 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:10.799 You and you've been to a Presbyterian church and now you're vintage and so we're all um mutt in a nice way. 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:12.079 Kaleidoscopes. 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.480 Kaleidoscope of Christian Christianity. 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:15.200 I love it. 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:17.839 Well, tell us a little bit about your call to the ministry. 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.720 Yeah, you know, uh it's it's been an interesting journey in that call. 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.519 Uh, you know, some people are just like, I know right away I'm gonna be a pastor. 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:33.359 Uh I think my discernment was through, again, community and listening. 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:47.119 Uh, you know, my family, um, my dad's been in real estate and in business, and my uh brother's in finance, and my other brother's in real estate, my sister's on her own, uh, her her own company and her own salon and all the stuff. 00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:49.519 And I just was like, I guess I'm supposed to do business. 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:50.960 Like my family's in business. 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.400 My mom's a teacher. 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:57.839 Uh, so that might explain you know how I'm now a teacher in a different context. 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:00.240 But initially I was like, I gotta do business. 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:15.279 Um, but just over the journey, you know, having listening to different people, I would serve in different contexts, and people would see things in me and say, Mike, you're gonna either you're gonna take my job, you're gonna be the next youth pastor, or you need to really consider being a pastor. 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.160 And I'm like, I don't know about that, you know? 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:28.720 So um, you know, I think there was a season in my life where I experienced my first real uh solid call was I was on crutches. 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:32.160 Um, I'm at uh comedy sports in Los Angeles. 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:33.680 You guys know comedy sports? 00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.599 Uh it's like this improv place, uh, and it's super fun. 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:43.920 But I'm there on a Friday night and it was some friends, and this old youth pastor who lived in San Diego. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.079 I run into him at Comedy Sports in Los Angeles. 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.160 I'm like, Spike, because that's that's how I know him. 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:49.279 I don't know his name. 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.359 I honestly think it's Brian. 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:52.480 I could be wrong. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:54.160 I just know him as Spike. 00:27:54.319 --> 00:27:56.480 And he he was like, Mike, what are you doing here? 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:02.319 Long story short, he says, I just had you just came into my mind just yesterday, you know. 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:04.400

Have you ever thought about going into ministry? 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.240 I have an opportunity for you. 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:12.720 And I was like, okay, I'm listening, you know, and that from that place I really started uh entering into ministry. 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:15.920 Uh I have taught in like a private Christian school before. 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:24.880 I did apply my undergraduate degree in business uh in it for a season, but God just kept pulling me back into ministry uh in the church. 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:29.759 Now I say ministry in the church on purpose because I think ministry goes well beyond the church. 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:41.599 I think we all are ministers, we all have our ministry, uh, whether whatever context it is, um, whatever environment you find yourself in, uh, but mine specifically was serving within the church. 00:28:41.759 --> 00:29:04.240 And uh being a pastor in the Presbyterian church, um, you know, that was a calling that just in looking back at my life and how uh God has formed me and the things that um some of my spiritual gifts, the things I'm passionate about, some of my abilities, all those things, my experiences, they all shaped me. 00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:15.680 And uh I just I was like, wow, when I saw the opportunity to be initially a congregational care pastor, like I wanted to be with people and sit with people, show up at the bedsides, you know, in the hospital or at homes. 00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.559 And when I saw that, it just mapped with my story. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.400 And I was like, okay, I guess that's I should apply for that one. 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:24.079 And uh and here I am. 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:27.279 So yeah, I don't know if that was a long-winded answer, but those are. 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:30.799 No, God obviously found you where you were. 00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:31.680 Yeah. 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:34.960 And it pulled me along in the journey, you know. 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:47.200 It was like it took a little while to figure out, and I'm still in that discernment process of, you know, I I feel called uh to ministry, and I'm grateful to be able to serve the larger church. 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:57.039 And I'm called to help people like you uh to minister in your context that you find yourselves in, because I think that the work that you're doing is equally as important. 00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:04.319 And um so again, I really believe in the priesthood of all believers and uh that everyone has a ministry. 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:17.680 Um, what an opportunity for us to be the church uh wherever we find ourselves, uh, because that really um it's it's you know the Christian cliche, the blessed to be a blessing kind of idea. 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.599 It's more than a cliche. 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:36.880 It's like, no, really, we can make our environments uh more whole and and more lovely and um more welcoming and more honest and safer spaces, like all those

things, you know, uh that we get to be the church in those ways. 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.319 So yeah. 00:30:38.559 --> 00:30:39.759 So how did you get your call? 00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:40.720 No, I'm just kidding. 00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.480 This podcast was Jason's idea, so I give him full credit. 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:47.200 That's good. 00:30:47.359 --> 00:30:48.000 I don't know. 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:51.359 He's like, I don't know why. 00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:53.039 Uh I don't know about this. 00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:57.039 Well, it's a lot of work, so now he's like, I don't know why. 00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:02.559 Hey, so um what's your Easter message? 00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:04.720 I'd be with this off to ask you that. 00:31:05.119 --> 00:31:05.839 Yeah, that's great. 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:20.559 Well, Easter, one of the things that I love about Easter, there's a lot um that I love about Easter, but one of the things that really comes to mind when you ask that question uh is how Jesus presents himself post-resurrection to Mary. 00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:27.200 Now, even as I tell this story, I can hear my wife in the back of my head, uh, she's saying, That's my story. 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:37.279 So uh I give her credit for this uh in a lot of ways, but we both really love this moment where Jesus reveals himself to Mary after he's resurrected. 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:40.480 And um she doesn't recognize him. 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:45.759 She sees this guy in this garden and is like, Have you seen this Jesus guy? 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.319 Um and she mistakes him as a gardener. 00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:52.559 And like, I think that's not a small detail. 00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.640 I think that's deeply theological. 00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.000 Because if you remember back in Genesis where God gets God's hands dirty, right? 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:09.200 God is like the original gardener, God's got his hands in the dirt, forming and shaping and cultivating and creating, right? 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:18.160 And so we have this God who um is again participating in this gardening moment. 00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:23.200 Um, it feels like a full circle moment for me. 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:29.839 That this this gardener God reveals himself again in post-resurrection as a gardener. 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.920 And yet this time uh Jesus is standing over the earth. 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:37.440 He's not uh buried by it, he's not defeated by it. 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:40.000 No, but he's cultivating something new. 00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:44.160 He's uh he's bringing about this newness of life. 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:44.960 And I love this. 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.839 I love that it reminds us that the under the earth isn't our final destination, right? 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:51.759 That that's not the final resting place. 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:54.000 The grave is not the end of the story. 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:55.839 Death doesn't have the final

word. 00:32:56.240 --> 00:33:04.000 Um, Jesus doesn't just rise from the garden, but he rises as the gardener. 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:04.400 Wow. 00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:09.039 And he continues to cultivate this resurrection life in us. 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:21.599 That he wants us to have life, to continue for that life to flourish and to grow, uh, and not just end, but to continue on um for all eternity, which is, I think, a beautiful thing. 00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:25.920 Uh so that's one of the thoughts that I reflect on this Easter with y'all. 00:33:26.400 --> 00:33:27.200 I love that. 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.880 Tell Rebecca that's a good one. 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:30.240 I know, right? 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.160 Oh, that's so good. 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:36.240 She will appreciate that you said that. 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.240 And and you might have seen David go up the stairs before because he just came in. 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:41.599 Is David here? 00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:43.119 Um my gosh. 00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:44.240 Tell him I said hi. 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:45.119 Oh my goodness. 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:47.119 You guys are so generous. 00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:49.200 I I have such fond memories. 00:33:49.359 --> 00:34:01.119 I remember being, like I said earlier, in your pool with uh Nash, and like, gosh, she's gonna hate that I tell this story, but like throwing them off your shoulders, you know, like that's what I think is like holding and launching them. 00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.680 But you guys would open up your home uh for us. 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.359 I just think that's so generous. 00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:12.960 And what you're doing now with different people, how you're interviewing them, you're being generous with your time and with your space and with your listening. 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:16.239 Both of you, uh, what a gift that you're offering people. 00:34:16.400 --> 00:34:19.119 So I appreciate the time that we got to spend together today. 00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.519 And I just want to say thank you uh for this opportunity. 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:22.159 It's been great. 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.559 Me too, and and much love to your family. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:26.159 Uh oh, yours as well. 00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:26.639 Yeah. 00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:27.679 Blessings. 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:31.920 I liked his image of Jesus as a gardener. 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:39.599 I I like that too, and I don't think I'd ever really thought of it that and I like the comparison of like God creating the world was a gardener too. 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:40.400 Yeah. 00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.800 Lovely thought. 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:52.800 I wanted to tell you, I read a study right before um we were gonna talk the other day about um prayer and your brain. 00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:03.280 So I think everybody knows prayer meditation is good for anxiety and stress, but there was a study done at Johns Hopkins that said prayer 12 minutes a day. 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:07.039 I don't know that I'm timing myself that I'm praying that much, but that was the study. 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:12.320 It actually strengthens your memory, your focus, strengthens your brain. 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.400 12 minutes seems like a long time, though. 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:17.280 I know. 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:21.760 But I'm working on it. 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.199 Will five minutes a day do anything for my brain? 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:28.000 I don't know. 00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:29.519 It's a good start, right? 00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:36.320 You know, I'm very uh mindful of that stuff now. 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:45.599 So I'm gonna try and um not time my my prayer life, but you know, maybe talk to God a little longer every day. 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:46.480 That's good. 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:48.400 Try every day, a little longer every day. 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:52.320 Well, happy Easter, everybody. 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:59.119 I hope everybody gets an Easter basket with jelly beans, which I will buy one for myself and one for the kids. 00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:04.400 I always like the um marshmallow covered, uh, chocolate-covered marshmallows that look like rabbits. 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.000 Little butt Easter bunnies. 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:07.360 The marshmallow thing. 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.039 All right, to each his own. 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:12.480 All right, happy Easter. 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.239 If you like the show, give us good ratings, good reviews, and share with friends. 00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:21.599 And come chase faith with us on Instagram and let us know your faith story.